The Sun. — London, England, 1812-07-02 00:00:00

• land, in Ireland, in Scotland, anomalies relaxing that which ought to be restrained, and restraining , that which ought to be relaxed—he asked if there was any thing on the Face of this scheme of laws so beautiful and So perfect in theory, as to deter _ their Lordships froth approaching' it, with a .view of considering whether it might not be sus esptible of some improvement He thought' no one would venture to reply in the affirmative.—The next question then would be, what tvas .the prac tical effect of this system ? Was it such as to in duce a forgiveness of its theoretical errors and ano malies ? It sometimes occurred, that the most adva.nlsageous practical results proCeeded from. theoretical" error. 'Wns that the case in the pre. sent instance?' • This system, when it operated, inflicted a positive stiffering. He insisted, that to be deprived of the capacity of holding any civil or military office, or of enjoying a seat in 'Parlia-: ment, was to - endtire a positive suffering. It was a degradation. It was unworthily secluding indi viduals from the society of the great "mass of their felloW-subjects.. He would go farther.. It was not only a suffering, but it was a suffering of the „nature of a penalty. • Was not an incapacity to hold ti civil or military office one of the heaviest penalties'tfoit could be infi cted ? Was it not by the established law the penalty annexed to the commission-by public men of high misdemean ours ? 'would go still further. ,It was slot only a suffering, it was not only a penalty,' hut it was of the nature of persecution. persecu tion exist only in tire - rind faggot,, in the racks, or: other torture ? He for one could n6f consent to continue- the visitation of penaltiO amounting to persecution on religious opinions, because they were sue posed to involve political tenets, which those who were said to' hold them forswore ; whch the first authority of the Popish ehtirch dis clai7ned, and which stood only on the imputation nf having heels the acts cif a doUnCil ro longerin existence, and Which could never he reVi.TVed. Much stress would; no dollot, • be laid Ontbelan page that had late's , been used by a. part iif the Catholics. : in Ireland. Their Lordships would probably behold, that, they ought not to be influ enced ,by menaces. Far was he from wiihingthat: they - should be so. But he was sm 7 rsnatiled that they would very weakly understand their duty as' the hereditary Counsellors of the Crown, . they objected to take 'into legislative consides , k;- tion any just causes o f discontent; belaUse that discontent Might, perchance, be expresSed in warm and itivoiarded terms. The 'question ought to be, whether just cause for discontent existed ? If he Could chew that his case was proved; but he would go beyond - this; ,he would maintain that in his conscience he did not con= ceive it possible to expect that discontent should • not arise out of the laws as they stood, operating upon the ,description of persons to .which the question referred. What was the tendency M such discontent ? Must not the effect of it be to weaken the national spirit—to diminish the na tional resources—to establish., in the heart of the Empire, a feeling hostile to our own Government, and well disposed to that of the enemy ? Did it not go to create a party adverse to the National Establishments, and above all to the .Church Establishment ? It was impossible but that such an effect must be produced, from the depreciation • which a part of the people suffered in their civil:. rights. This indeed was danger. It was indeed dangerottsAhat a large class of persons, not per witted to participate in the privileges of their fel low subjects, should find their interests int;Mate s lv implicated with the very existence of the Church Establishment itself. Nor had the exist ing system effected even its Own objects ; and the mischiefs which it had produced Must increase in proportion to the reluetance4f the Legislature— he himself would say to remedy, but certainly at least to consider the evils that it had occasioned. If Parliament should deter Mine, that $t was their s s , wisdomnot even to consid e r the claims cif 'the Catholics, .he feared that those rischiefs and evils would increase in a progsfessive ratio, until . they arrived at a point whiels he would not venture to describe, but which be en treated their Lordships seriously to contem-• plate. Another view might be taken (Adds subject. What had been the '-effect of thiS system in that part of the United Kingdom in svhie It it - had been enforced with severity ?—And what had been the effect in that part of the United Kingdenn in which the system bad been relaxed ?- 'lldd tie severity produced quiet hr Ireland ?: In Scotia - Id, where the whole system differed, and where that strange anomaly existed, by which Papists were rendered eligible to all civil and military ,offices, had the' Catholic Bishops in Scotland interfered with the Presbyterian establishment of 'that country ?: The conclusion was irresistible, namely, that if, where . the operation of the sy s t e m was en f orce d , t h e greatest injury resulted ; ;. and where the operation of the system was relaxed, no injury whatever re. suited, the continuation of time system, Without . any attempt at remedy, and still more Without any disposition to consider it, must 'rapidly and clan gerouslysincrease the evils that at present existed. —The next consideration was, what would be the probable effect 'of a change lie had heard, it pnbliciy contended, that a change would produce nogood eaect in Ireland. What was the audio- city to which those who uttered that assertion re ferred ? The examination before Secret Commit tees of the House of Lords and Commons in Ire land of certain individuals, who declared that Ca- tholic Emancipation would not hay the slightest effect in tranquilizing Ireland. In answer to this, he would appeal to the experience of all his tory. If a certain class of individuals were evi dently enduring- a suffering of the nature of a penalty, and amounting to persecution, a suffering etk~iversallycomplained of by the Protestant as well as by the Catholics—would not the conClusion, that a removal of that suffering would•not be followed by a cessation of discontent, be contrary to the ordinary course of human feelings and human of fairs -% " But it was said, " there are other causes of discontent in Irelind." Suppose' this true, was-there ever such a maxim held by.a State --was there ever. such a doctrine adopted 14. a Le gislature, as that, because a great variety of pub lic grievances existed, one, particularly pointed out, and the cause and operation of which Were renxiered irrecistibly evident, ought not to be re tricrect ? For himself, he was persuaded—although it wag UOt a subject on which it was possible-dis= tinctly to pledge himself-41:ot to remove this grievance would be effectually to appease ail dis content in Ireland. At any rate it was a main . grievance. Ilewould-go fin tiler. It was a legi timate grievance. It 'was a grievance of such a nature, that it affected all other grievances ; in -Ban4aig and - exasperating them. It deeply galled the national pride of . Ireland. It was-not surpi.i.S ing that the Sense of degiadation,'.Which disabili ties that 'ought to bc,the penalties - only of I:igh miademeanOurs, must necessarily occasion, should taint thc whole feeling and conduct of those minds in whirl it existed. In his view Of the subject ; to remove -this single grieVanee wo - tA be toroot out all the others. With o ut remov i ng thi s griev ance, the remota of all the others would have little or no effect; , bat' let their Lordships deter mine that this avievance should be open to con , - sideratiBn, and, eventnally to conciliatory -arrange menta and every other discontent in Ireland would speedily Subside. What reason' Was there to doubt this Nothing, he repeated, but the Opie nions expressed by 'Certain Unfortunate persons 'concerned in the rebellion in Ireland, who were examined before the Secret . Committees of both Houses of:Parliament. These persons certainly declared, una voce, that Catholic Emancipation would have no effect in tranquiliSing Ireland. But was it on ,such an opinion, so proceeding, that ,Parliaineut were now to rely ? Was any weight '`to be attached' to the declaration of persons sedii lonsly employed in inflaming Ireland, and affixing . dissent and disorder in her very heart, when they maintained that a relaxation which wri,s. calculated' lay the f oun d a ti on o f a conc ili ator y adjustment of the Catholic - Claims, was- not calculated to sub e due the discontents, and:to tranquilize the agita " tioa of Ireland ? The shbrt question was—and it was a question to - which - he wished particulaely to direct their Lordships attention—whether the Church Establislu would be more endangered by the admission of the Catholics to the eligibility to all civil and military offices, and to seas in ::Porliament, or by embodying a whole periple nn 7 - : der aasysteid of exclusion/which must rendeftlipm . adverse tb that establishment, and susceptibl e of" •,. • that feeling which it was the undoubted wish and 6 .(:l4ject •of the enemy to cherish? , In his sincere conviction, it:was impossible to conceive a more erroneous policy, than, after a cl4r manifestation on the part.of the Catholics,, thiit their religious tenets had no connection whnteVer with their po litical opinionS, that the mark which bad beenfix ed on them should be allowed to remain, and they thus'inevitahly 'be rendered inimical to the exist ing establishments. There 'remained only to be considered the time, the mode, and the object of the present motion. With respect to time, their Lordships ought to recollect that there had' been accumulated delay. .The 'consideration of the. Ca tholic Claims had been postponed' from time to time, under circumstances by no means 'satisfac tory either to the Catholics or to the public.— Against that postponement he had,. from an early period in the Session, remonstrated. The first dis cussion of the subject in the present Session took place on the 31st of January. He had objected to the motion of that day, on the ground of the recent alleged violation of the law in Ireland," and for'other reasons, which it was not necessary to re-: .peat. When the subject was subsequently agi tated, "he had distinctly expressed his opinion that their Lordships ought not to allow such a great question to lie dormant. When'it was freed from embarrassnient, he conceived that an early consi deration of the question was essential to the re 'storation of the peace of Ireland. He pressed that consideration, on the ground that the great est irritation in that country was otherwise to be expected. What he had anticipated had occurred.. Considerable irritation had been excited by the de lay. The Catholics entertained jealousies and suspicions wholly unwarrantable, even of those who were their friends.' But was that a reason for not fixing a precise tinte for entering into the consideration of their claims ? Far from it ; with him it was an additional motive for taking'the question under the eye of Parliament ; for taking it out of the hand s o f th ose w h o were d es i rous o f managing it in other places. In doing this, their Lordships would be ably assisted by the NobleXarl near him (we presume Lord Donoughinore), He .(Lord Wellesley) would only presume to aid that great cause in which the Noble Earl must lead. lie would aid it to the extent of his humble pow ers : for, by the suspicion and jealousy which had gone abroad on this subject, he had been in no way hurt. Let the Catholics—let the country judge of his sincerity, and that' of those Who thought with him, by their conduct. He was sin cere in wishing that the Catholic Claims should be considered, but he was also sincere in wishing that they should be considered in Parliament, and not left to float abroad, exposed to every peril which could assail a great and important public question. He wished to rescue the subject from the enemy e —not an-enemy in Ireland, but an ene my in France. So far washe from thinking what 'had occurred in Ireland : should induce delay, he• thought it tailed' o n th e i r L or d s hips to accelerate their proceedings. If it were practicable . , he 'thought it called on their Lordahipsto go into the immediate consideration of the subject.' .But Par liament could. do only that which was practicable. To so much delay therefore he must submit. but if the advanced stage of the Session - forbade any hope that a progress in the consideratiOn "of the Catholic Claims might be made inthe present Ses sion, the next proposition would be, that the House would take up that consideration • early iu the next Session. Then came the consideration of the mode. He would ask their Lordships whe ther, after all that he had been deseribing—after all their knowledge on the subject—they thought it possible, consistent with the tranquility of Ire land, and with the safety of the Empire, to al low this question to remain as it was, during the season that must elapse after the prorogation, and before the next meeting of Parliament, with out any pledge or assurance on their part—sub mitting it to be looked at capriciously or ill-hu mouredly by the Catholics, and with an evil design by the great enemy? The question was, whe- , . ther the object of the proposed resolution was one which objections couhtbe made ?No one, he was persuaded, but must be anxious, if it were possible, to obtain it for " such a final and con eiliatdry adjustment as might be conducive to. the pe l ,lce and strength of . the Umited Kingdom, to the stability of the Protestant establishment, and to the general satisfaCtion and concord off - all classes of his Majesty'subjects:' • The only Air., ference of opiAion was on the probability of the attainment of these de.sirable objects: Upon this . probability Parliament could decide only after a full and deliberate Consideration of the stikject.-- It was probable that there .were other eirctim stances in the situation o f I re la n d, which, though not principal, Were accessaries in occasioning the .present state of things in that country. To enter into any examination of these circumstances at the present moment would be premature. The only question was, whether all the circumstances were not such as to induce their Lordships to take them into serious consideration ? If so, what impropriety would there be in , their giving the Public a pledge that they would ente r u p on th a t cons id erat i on ear ly in ,the next Session of Parliament ? When that period should. arrive; he Would must ccrdiallir as sist those who were entitled to take the lead . in the, business, ft-. completely revising the whole sys tem ; and he trusted in God that -the event would be.productive of tranquility and union. If, how ever the House should reject his motion, what conclusion could. the Catholics or the Public draw ? They Must draw the, conclusion that their Lord ships meant : to .establish the existing system in Ireland-=-4o give to it the. sanction of thetonsti tution, and to uphold it ,as , the 4uitvth.k of our li .berties. `‘ I. trust (concluded the MPe Mar quis) that, this will not- be the case. I trust that your Lordships will adopt the proposition which Aln about, humbly to submit to you, in the hope, and with the , opinion, that it may lead to peace and tranquility in Ireland' s ; and to the generalhar mony and strength of the whole United Ki n g and I trust, therefore, that-your Lordships will resolve--- 'l,7ltat this House will early in the next SeSsicin Parlia mennake into its most serious, consideration the state of the laws alrectitig his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects.in Great Britain and Ireland, with a view to such a final and concilia tory adjustment as may he condueh - eto the peace and Strength . of the United Kingdom, to the sta!;ility , of the Protestant Establishment, and to the general satisfaction and concord of all.elasses of his Majesty's subjects."• Lord LONGFORD observed, that this was.a sub ject on which there existed considerable difference of opinion. Even the best friends of the' Catho licS,thought they had lately gone to most unwar rantable lengths ; and the objections of those who were adVerse to concession, were very much strengthened by, the recent occurrences. He ob ' jetted entirely to a- pledge on this subject.. The Catholic would derive, no advantage from it, for he nnist know that it was a subject winch !would . be entertained by Parliament whenever they might consider it prudent to entertain it. - If, however,. circumstances should render it expedient for enter into the' coaSithratiOn of the Catholic claims early in the next Session, what would be the effect of adopting the Noble Marquis's resolution; but to :pledge their Lord Ships to consider that Which it would be expedient to, .consider him self, he could not agree that the objections to concession were of a spiritual nature ; they were political. He . , lbr one, Would riot chuse to admit those into political power who in any shape acr knowledged a foreign authority. He wished to afeertain some positive security, before.he could consent to such .a surrender. The present sub mission of the CathOlics to the Papal power was, in his opinion, ,of too organized a nature, not to 'be susceptible of a political character. hen the question was brought forward, whenever it might be brought forward, he, trusted that it would be considered not partially with a view to the inte rests of the Catholics' alone, but as b. great 'na tional cause.` In refusink to agree to the present motion, he guarded himself from being supposed to intimate, that if it should be proposed next SesOon: to discuss the subject he shotild Object to that, proposition. The - LORD CHANCELLOR thought it . his duty, thus early-in the debate, to offer to the.irLord ships his sentiments on a subject of such vital, portance to the civil and religious liberties of the Empire. Because he stated his opinion on this subject ? • even were he to stand alone 'in that .opinion—he denied the right of any man to ques tion his sincerity. There was no wish nearer his heart than to 'be convinced that he was wrong. If he could be convinced of that, he would,, with out hesitation, vote for the resolut?on proposed by the Noble Marquis ;but conceiving as, lie did, that he • was right; and that those who were of a different opinion were wrong, the.NobleMar . -. quis. must excuse hi m , an d i n d ee d ,he wonld,, no doiibt, applaud him for going to the utmost length in opposition to that motion. The Noble Marqui f ijustly expressed his persuasion that there could be no difference of opinion as to the desirable nature of the objects which the resolution,profess .ed- itself calculated to attain. Oh, that they could be accomplished ! Oh, that their Lordships Could came to some determination on this. subject, " satisfactory to all elasSes of his Majesty's sub-- jects He believed from his soul, that the Noble Marquis entertained the best intentions 3 but it was for their Lordships that night closely to examine, and conscientiously to decide upon the probability, or rather the possibility, that the adoption of the Noble Marquis's resolution would be " satisEctory to all classes of his Majesty's subjects." He trusted thp.t he slkould riot be charg ed with intolerance and bigotry, if he expressed ) Lin self in the language. of all the Statutes on the Subject, or if he maintained that to agree to the question VI dispute, would be to alter the wit ole s ys - tein of law which since the revolution had been es tablished in this Protestant, and he trusted not the' less Protestant, for being the United Kingdom., There had been great men, certainly not chargeable with bigotry and intolerance, who had thought it of some importance that the religion in which they had been educated, and which he, it might be er, roneously, could not help ,considering the purest in the world, ought to be favoured by tire State in a higher degree than any other, religion. It certainly shocked him to see the descendants of those great men act so 'oppositely to 'the prin ciples of their ancestors. They must pardon him, but he could mot refrain from expressing his re gret at this circumstance. 'From the year 1800 to the present period, he and those who thought with him on the present subject—the humble ad vocates of the civil and religious liberties of their country (liberties fostered by the Church Estab liihment, so closely connected with that of the 1 State)----had never reased- td request those, . proposed an alteration in the existing state 0 1 things; what it was they 'meant to do He now aSked the• Noble Marquis, in that language of re spect whia it was as becoming hi m to use as the Noble Marquis to hear, what it was that-he meant to do 1 What did the Noble Marquis propose Cons; , deration i• Did not all the Noble Marquis's arguin ents go to establish the necessity, not of coo' sideratipa only, but of absolute concession ? pur ing the last debate on this subject, he (the LOrd Chancellor) had got op. to, protest against the iMputations which had beet thrown out aguiaSt him in that - Honse and in other places, that he was an enemy to .the Catholic claiMs. He wag no enemy to the jut claims, if they could been; tertained consistently with the public welttre uc any class of ,his Majesty's subjects. B u t h o lding the high situation which he had the honour to bold, he should think him Self the most. culpable and criMinal of beings if he consented to the sa crifice -of -any guard .which, in his opinion, Av. 4 indispensable to the security ;of the.. Church and State: He repeated what he had said in his last speech, that nothing on earth should induce bias; contrary to his sound discretionas . a. legislator, to pledge hiniself, to the copsideration of a subject, which, even if it appeared fit to be discussed 1; 4'0 the proposition was , originally made, might , by the intervention of various, circuurstancv4i become not fit to be discussed at the period to which(' the proposition referred. . According to the avowal of the Noble Marquis himself, the events of five or six months . might produce a very great change' in_ the_ propriety or ,iippre priety of any disenssion. For instaw:e, at the cot } of the session of 1811, Parliament bad beard no"' thing ,of the Convention in :Ireland; they 1104 heard nothing of the measures adopted in, conse - P quence; on the legality.or illegality of which be would now say nothing, except that _ the l'ir0 1 " lawyers and the Irish debatus elsewhere, had right to inform . the public that he allowed those" measureS to be illegal, becaus.e he had ilot con tradicted Lord Erskine on "the subject. fact was, that he thought it .became neither' bis Noble - or Learned Friend, nor himself, to say one word on, that subject, -pending a l ega l c onsi" deration, and when it might be ultimately sub mitted to tbe decision Of their Lordships. But be remonstrated against having eenelnded unfavour able to the legality of those - measures, because he bad conscientiously abstained froin, express ing his sentiments on them.' He confessed kis - surpriSe at the .opinions_ delivered by. the Noble Marquis, fighting side, by side with hint, as that Noble Marquis,had done at the commencement of,. the present Session. 'He bad not heard much or the Noble Marquis's ,opinioris on this smd Le" fore. If he were pushed, lie would say, that .11e . had entertained little suspicion that such opinion s eNisted the Noble Marquis's 'mi n d. At the time when the NoLlek *Marqpis stated in That' House, that if the L eg i s l ature ever gave way W menace, there was an end to free and uncoil" trolled discussion, the Noble Marquis and he voted together.. The Noble Marquis was now, would appear s of a different opinion ; Y ct " the circumstances were the tame, .or ratb.e,r they • were much stronger. One would have thou that similar eircuinstan , .Ts would have le to 3 similar conclusion. tie knew that the Resoiiitio o- of the.late Aggregate Meeting of Catholic:3 w ere not a Parliamentary document, to which are`" guiar reference could be made ;. but it ws. , ;.nevei"'; theless impossible that the Legislature cook' blind themselves to what had occurred. At the same time he begged that his vote of that nigh t .might not conclude him on the subject in the next Session of Parliament. Wb a tl e contende d for was„ that no man ought to pledge himself, t° some future course of proceeding ; that when tho season of action' arrived, he should do that , ' which, ,under .ail • the'circumstances of the, cage , it appeared to him was right •to do. Revertiog. to the Resolutions of the Aggregate Meeting c' t the Catholics of 'lreland, he asked those wh ° „ . had react the papers in Which they were CO tamed, if they eve! met. with a more sew l- - dalous or a more infamous publicati9n, ing as it did,, the most unwarranted.. censure 03. •1, --- • liiustrious persons holding,,in: the place of ' 0 King, offices of Sovereignty in this country- more criminal production had never appeared .' When ,he saw such characters so observed he must m a intain th e i m p ropr i ety o f i t even i 0 had voted with his_ Noble Friend. • He ONied, it in justice to those who voted the resolutions, to-sl , that he believed they were surpriSed into thell With respect to the meas ure it se lf, h e h a d iistene; with the greatest attention - to what the Nolne Mai quis proposed, and he was to the bonajide con sideration, with reference to bona fide concessi°"" not only a friend, but se far a friend, as to belietv, that no , man, cons4tently.with his, public duty' would be an enemy to it. The N s oble Lord hal asked them to - sheW . ,him the danger • but was h e in this Protestant Conntry to shew the danger Q t subverting' the Pr o t e it an t E s t a bli s h ment he meant to say was, that :every where in - o ‘ l ' Statute books ~ , the- y Would find the security of, tht 7 . Protestant religion *Vicki] for, not merely vci_T reference to religion, notbe, cause W e quarre ll e the religion of the Catholics, but becanse th e ' ; religious opinions operated on their political ciples in such a way as to render it necessary to adt:';', , same defence against them. it bad been that the - regulations of-.which the Catholics _0 1)1 " plained were, called for by the particular occi.i.si" but the ancestor of , a ICoble Lord (Hardwick e) . had cautioned th em ,. th a t if t h ey perm i tte d their religious establishment to be broken in - upon, th e effect would be injurious to their civil, rights;', This, was the general principle . up o n wbich t . a?' r ancestors proceeded. It had been 'said. that f-- " Catholics regarded their .oaths. He did not that they did so ; but'' there was no oath whit' met the case, or afforded an adequate security.--7" As to the distinction drawn in their favour be: tween - spiritual and temporal jurisdiction, it a distinction "in itself - obscure, and !liabl.P. to gre at confusiOn and one thing we might depend upu" f in looking at thi s su bj ect , t h at a great deal that we would call. temporal, they would "ll :„ spiritualpower: The anthority of Bl ac k stone„wbia was quoted so frequently on this subject, if quote impartially, would. go to a modificaticn of the visions against the R oman C a th o li cs; but no fur ther' than a modification, so long .as they ac/.0(1-w-