The Sun. — London, England, 1846-06-19 00:00:00

The Speaker then left the House, attended by several Members. The SPEAKER inf,.rin , - , d the House that he had been to th► House of Lords to hear the royal assent given to several Bills, for which see Lords' report. SHEFFIELD AND MANCHESTER RAILWAY. The debate on the Sheffield and Manchester Railway Bill was then resumed. Mr. PARKER, in continuation, remarked that be could only attribute the loss of the Bill to the multiplicity and complicated nature of the measure with which it wis grouped. By means of this decision of the Comtnittte the people of Manchester and Sheffield would be cu' off from all communication with that district, which in a great measures supplied them with coals. And he came to this conclusion, than the members of the Committee wbo voted for the rejection of the Bill had not had sufficient local information to qualify them to sit on the Committee. And really such a defeat as that, wa. , a very serious charge against the Committee of the House. He be lieved the Noble Lord opposite was pr rfectly right in his decision, and that the conclusion to which this s. , Me group bad come, with respect to another Biil (the South York shire Bill), which was before the House the ether day, was a erroneous decision, and in that case, too, the members of the Committee were totally devoid of local information. The decision in the case of this Bill was not unanimous ; and he had a right to say that as long as two of the five were in tay.ur t f the Bill, and those sa s s voted against it wire not acquainted with tae varied wants of this populous district, the Pill should be recommitted ter a full consideration by such Members as were acquainted with Yorkshire said Lancashire. He would repeat that the Committee bad not had sufficient information laid before them ; and such facts as these, he thought, aught to justify the House in departing, in this instance, from its usual cour,e. He believ d that if this decision of the House was confirmed, the important town of Barnsley would tie cut off from the other towns to which its produce would otherwise be transmitted, and that 10,000 people would be entirely cut off from all connexion with the west. He was bound to say that he believed that if the decision in this case Were sanctioned the House would come to a more er roneous conclusion than it ever had since it first sat. Mr. R. YORKE said he was most desirous to put an end to the very indecent scenes with which the House had been afflicted during the last week. It had been his misfortune, with every other thing, to hear a second speech from the Honourable Gentleman. the Member for Sheffield, on these subjects. That Honourable Gentleman insisted that in these matters the Members should be locally interested, or have local knowledge, in order that they might come to a proper conclusion with regard to these Bills. Now really it was vain at this time or day to talk upon such subject. For many years the House had tried that system, and it was a manifest failure. He admitted that in some instances, where Members had Clot loci knowledge of the districts brought under their consideration, they had come to unjust decisio s ; but h e believed that every one must admit that the business of the Committees during the last two years had been conducted in the most just and im partial manner ; their decisions had given manifest sa tisfaction. This Bill was no new Bill before the House. It had alt eady occupied its attention the last three years, and on each occasion the House decided that it ought not to pass. After giving the subject a fair and fill consideration, he felt bound to say that he must concur with the decision of the Committee. Alter a few words from Mr. S. WORTLEY, Mr. PROTHERt)E said that, in his opinion, the Committee on Private Bills, a few months ago, 'were prolonged si m what unnec-ssarily, and that had given rise, as tie was inclined to think. to a disposition to cut short the proceedings.— (Hear) He had sat on one of the longest. Committees this session, and during its sitting he had heard many Members ex• press great surprise that they were sell going on. He h*d been asked why they did not shorten the proceedings, by Members who said that they ad given the counsel due notice that they would cut theta short in their pr ceedings. All this had given him reason to su‘pect that according to the pre-ent constitution of Committees just deci,ions could not be obtained. On the present occasion he suspected that there had been a little hastiness on the part of the Merabe- s of the Committee, and certainly some mis und:rstanding on the subject before the Hou,e. He Was, however, disposed to support the decision of the Committee, as the decision of the Committce to which he belonged had been kindly supported by the House the other night. Mr. HINDLEY raid that the effect of this Bill would be to reduce toe price of coal is 6d. per ton less than it cost as now brought from Barnsley. If there was a Company ready to form a brunch which would produce such an effect, he did not see why it should not receive the sanction of the House. He was told that the Committee to whom the Bill had been referred had care ullr examined into the evidence adduced in support of it, and 11.- had every desire to bow totheir decision, but he was at a loss ta k Flow the wrounds which they rejected it. Nit one sioele reason had nben given by may of the members of the Committee 40 show why thk Bill had nut been passed. He considered they ought to give so i.e reason why the coals of Barnsley should not be co.tveyed at a cheap r a t e to Ashton-unJer Lye and other district.. He was fully satisfied, if the facts were in tloir.-d into, that the House would reverse the decision of the Committee. Sir G. GREY would not support the motion, a. he could see no valid reason why the Bid should be remitted to the Committee for reconsideration, because if they hal li4ened to all the es idence that had been adduced before them, there could be little doubt that they Would arrive at a similar decision and reject the Bill. With re petit to the igitoratice of Committees in reference to the localities thritil,h which lines were projected, he ought to state that the practice of examin lug the Ilealbers representing such localities had become very prevalent in ill,• press nt session. Mr WARD drew the attention of the House t i the 118th standing order, which set forth that the report on every private Bill sh odd be laid on the table of the Rouse, and to the 123 d order, which was passed in order to afford an opportunity of discus • sing su ch reports every Tuesday and Thurs day- They ought not to sail under false co lours. Now, if this order was to be rendered nue,atory, by preventi ng discussion, it ou t tht to be rescinded, f..r nom the Pope was dead Committees of the House might be infallible—(Langhte7)—as they might act on ale principle that no Committee in this hot wt ather ought to sit a second time. But in this case he considered the house would do great injustice if they did not refer the mill back to the Committee. Mr. LABOUCHERE wanted to know what was the benefit to bc derived by sending Bills to the Committee, •Where the parties were put to enormous expenses in Prosecuting the Bill: if the reports of these Committees Were to be disre.arded? He thought they would have every disapp. i n t e d ra ilway compaty coming before the ho use, pra , jing it to reverse the decision, if such a course was Pe':si! , tad in. He should, therefore, vote on the p rese =t occasion as he always had done , an d a lwa y s ~,, -(3 % , i1d 00, unless some special circumstance were brought forward against the m otion. The House then divided, when there appeared— For the re-committa l 4 A g ainst it Majority —44 FRILFORD (B ERRS) INCLOSURE BILL. This Bill was read a third rime, and passed. WAKEFIELD, PONTEFRACT, AND GOOLE RAILWAY. The Bill for making the idethley, Askern, and Oakeeham branches of the Wakefield, Pontefract, and Oo,ole Railway, was read a third time, an d passed. On the motion of Sir C. DOUGLAS, the Lords'amend- Inents to the Stafford New Gas Bill were agreed to. Mr, DUNCONIBE Said that n case whatever had been made out for haste. His opini o on was that none of the Bills should pass at nil ; at any rate let them go be fore another Committee next year. He ob j ected to t h e Bill altogether, and the proceedings before the Com mittee, and he hoped the motion would be withdrawn. Mr. PI.OTHEROE was willing to withdraw the Motion. The motion was accordingly withdrawn. Several Bills were brought down from the Lords, the titles of which were inaudible. BROAD AND NARROW GAUGE. On the order of the day being read, Mr. HUME rose to present a petition from the Cor poration of Glasgow praying fur a uniform gauge throughout the country. RAILWAY GAUGE. On the motion f r resuming the adjourned di bate on the Broad and Narrow Gauge question, Me EVELYN DENISON said that he wished to Ur g e a few arguments against the resolutions in their Present shape. So much had been said in that House with regard to personal interest and p artialit y that he hoped he might be allowed to say that he had no con nexion with either of the great parties who were con ending f or thi s p o i n t. He had no concern wit h an y railway speculation of any sort or kind ; and as t o par tiality, when the broad gauge was last year befiee the House he gave his vote in favour of the extension in the broad gauge from Oxtord to R ugby He was quite ready to admit, and Wolverhampton. and no man cimld have any luxurious doubt on the point, that the:xurious e onven ien c e and speed of the broad gauge had had ad vantages. The case was now altered. The y the report of the , Irade had b een Gauge Cieurnissioners, and that report ad it must b the consideravon of the Board of under of the conceded that the preference an f pred:, b rn a le t d iauird , narrow gauge had now been admitted goners and by the Board of Trade, besides the °m e mil "' voice of the country. The inconvenience and di e ffi n eu " l ral he wished to point out as likely to result by confir ming these resolutions was tnis. They were celled upon ii; the House to acknowledge the formation of the narrov, gauge line both north and south—that it should be formed from Rugby to Oaf ed ; and they were call' d upon and desired to affirm that the broad gauge should else be laid down in the same line of communication. They were, therefore, called upon to assert, on the an thority of Parliament, that the narrow gauge line at communication, from nor h to south, should pass through the very jaws of the broad gauge in going from one district to the other. Now, what authority had they for this ? He could fi none bat the auth irity of the Commissioners. lie thought it was unjust to call upon them to carry a lin. of c o mmunication from the north to the south on the narrow, passing through the very jaws of the broad gunge ; and he confessed, if the Right Hon. Bar met succeeded in carrying the restriction, he must give noti .4 that the word " net" be omitted out of the third resolution. which provided that it is not expedient to alt , r the provisions of the Bill for making a railwae from (Mord :o Rugby. It would be impossible to ex tend th- broad gauge on the Rugby line beyond Oxford. 1 2 1 , 3 report of the Gauge Commi ,sioners certainl y car -645'4 9% the oFiliise Qf the night lion, cientlenan ari far as the first and second res , lutions went ; but the third r• solut'on was of a very different nature, for it sanctioned the continuation of the narrow gauge for railways in the north of England. These resolutions would really have no farce at all, for the House had already affirmed the suirit of them by Acts of Parlia ment. The reso'utions appeared to him inconvenient, and would produce had results, and he must beg of the Right Hon. Gentleman not to persist in forcing them up , n the House. It seemed to him, that if an experi ment were to be made, it should be made in accordance with the decision of the Board of Trade and the com panies concerned. He should not call upon the House of Commons to express an opinion upon a matter which involved so mtv:h doubt as this. When the fifth was propos,-d, he sle•uld propose to leave out the word "not." The SPEAKER then put the resolution, which was as follows:—" That in order to complete the general chain of narrow gauge cotnnaunica , ion from the north to the southern coat, and to the port of Bristol, any suitable me ,sures should be prompted to form a narrow gauge link from Gloucester to Bristol, and also from Oxford to Basingstoke, or by any shorter route con necting the propos , d Rugby and Oxford line with the South Western Railway, without prejudice however to the formation of any other line, also connecting, upon an uniform gauge and by a direct route, the north of England with the southern coast." The resolution was unanimously acrreed to. Sir G. CLERK then moved the fourth resolution:— " That it is thn opinion of this House, that it is expedient that the South W a iles line, and its branches to Mon mouth and Hereford, should be formed on the broad gauge." The Board of Trad , had given the best con sideration to the subject, and after much deliberation they had arrived at the conclue-ion embodied in the re solution, tri,t the S .uth Wales Railway should be formed on the broad v mp.. Sir G. GREY repeated his objection to the House interfering to pronounce an opinion whether or not. it was expedient to construct a line on the broad or the narrow gauge. If it were necessary for a railway to be laid down on the broad gauge, let provi ions for that purpose be inserted in the Act itself. He protested agirnst any alter”tions being made in the gauge except by an Act of Parliament. He should. therefore. mov • as an amendment, that the word " not." be inserted after "is," so that the resolution would real, as That it is not expedient, &e.," and if that was carried, he would follow it up by another amendment to carry out his views. After a few words from Mr. OBMSBY GORE and another 1-IoN. MEMBER. Mr. HAWES would test the technicality of the ob jection of his Rig' t Hon. FriPrd by a few observations. He had only to trove that in the opinion of the House, it vva.• the technical objection that could be got over by adopti!'g the resolution of the Board of Trade. Lit it be recollected what the House had already done. They had confined the narrow gauge system to a particular locality, and south of Bristol the broad gauge was to be laid down. He trusted that both parties—both those who advocated the narrow gauge, and those who were in favour of the broad gauge—had been heard. It was merely a t chnical objection, and therefore, he did think that the House ought to sanction the resolution. Under thy circumstances in which the House was placed, they wou.d be fully justified in the course that was proposed. After a few word.; from Sir G. GREY in explanation, Mr. HUNIE said it appeared to him that it would be better to strike out tlle resolution altogether. Lord SANDON did not think the House was called upon to express any opinion as to the broad gauge, but only to recommend the adoption of a certain course pro pos d by the Board or Trade. Sir T %VILDE observed that the adoption by the Gauge Commissioners of the narrow gauge had raturally caused much alarm amongst the broad gauge companies. The only ob,ect of the resolution was to allay any un necessary attirm that might be created ”mong the pro pri,tors of the south Wales Companies, that they would not be allowed to construct their line on the gauge that had been originally intended. After a few words from Mr. CHRISTIE and Sir G. GREY, Sir T. DYKE ACLAND said that the promoters of the broad gauge were not satisfied with the decision of the Commissioners, but had consented to the Commission on public principles. The House then divided, when there appeared— For the resolution Against it l4 - Majority On the sth resolution being proposed, " That it is the opinion ot, this House that it is not expedient to alter the provisions of the Acts for forming a line of railway from Rugby to Oxford, and ''or forming a line of railway from Oxford to Worcester and Wolverhampton, with respect to the gauge on which they may be formed. nor with re-peet to the powers therein conferred on the Board of Trade." Mr. LABOUCHERE rose to make a few observations. He thought that the House, by adopting a series of reso like those proposed, did not take upon itself any responsibility whatever. He could not help thinking, that consistently with the interests of the public, there might be some mode of extending the broad gauge to the manufacturing districts. It it had any advan ragas, as had been admitted, there was no means as yet, owing to its restricted use, of testing them effieiently. For his own part, he was of opinion that it would he wrong to &Tide the question entirely in fa vour of one side, as that system of competition which would be excited by the use of both gauges would be thereby put. an end to. He should, therefore. say, let them have huh the narrow and the broad gauge, as far as th.-1, could be laid down consistently with the inte rests of the public. If Parliament were to establish the best system of railways what, he would ask was, that they would not, by resolution or otherwise, preclude them selves from again considering thequestion, if it should be round that a di mble line could he laid down with safety He would also object to allow the question of gauge to be decided by Railway Committees of that House. It was a question which required the consideration of emi nent engineers, and be would therefore have a re sponsible body appointed by the Government, to whose decision in all cases the question should be left. These were all the observations he thought himself called upon to make. If it was the opinion of the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite, that they were not by this reso lution precluded from again considering the matter, he had no wish to trouble the House with any resolution on the subject, hut if' not. then he would move as an amendment, a resolution embodying his views—the draft of which he would read. It would afford him much pleasure. however, if the Right Hon. Gentleman would state that both gauges were practicable on the same line. Mr. HUDSON concurred most fully in the observa tions which had fallen from the Right Honourable Gentleman who had just sat down. If it were con sidered that it would tend to the public advantage to have two gauges on the same line, he saw no reason why the double gauge should not be laid down. He must bear his testimony to the fairness and impartiality which had been evinced by Honourable Members who had spoken on both sides of the ques tion ; and he trusted that the liberality thus exhibited would stimulate all the companies to in cre'sed exertion for the public advantage. He would not enter into any discussion with the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Russell), as to the comparative merits of their respective lines. They were met there to settle resolu tions as to what tended to the public advantage, and for that reason he would confine his observations to the re solution. He felt the strongest objection to having the two systems on one line. Several of the most eminent engineers had said so, and to him it appeared, that if it were attempte I to be carried out, it would be attended with the most imminent danger to the public. It might oe found to work well for the distance of four or five miles, but if extended to a long distance, there would be such a complication of difficulties as would make it impracticable. The confusien created could not be described. Let there be an independent line for both if it was considered beneficial to the public advantage, but he hoped the Board of Trade would be slow in giving an opinion on l ay i ng d own b ot h gauges on the same line, as he had the authority of several engineers that it was utterly impracticable. lie felt the strongest objection to anything that would cause complication or confusion in the present railway system, and, if the &utile gauge system were carried out, he would not be responsible for the working ',tit. He hoped the suggestion of the Board of Trade as to the uniformity of gauge would be carried out. Mr. C. RUSSELL made a few observations, but they were not audible in the gallery. After a few words from Sir G. GREY, Sir G. CLERK said that they were not now adopting any one gauge over another. There had been a Bill passed last year, called the Oxford, Worcester, and Welverhampton Railway Bill, and there was a clause in troduced i ,to that Bill, pledging the promoters to lay down double sets of rails should the Board of Trade re- quire it. those rails. They were now called upon to lay down After a few words from Mr. EVELYN DENISON and Mr. COLLETT, The resolution was then put by the SPEAKER, and agreed to Sir ROBERT PEEL rose and said, Sir, I wish to give notice that I will, by the permission of the House, to-morrow, on the motion for reading the orders of the day for the Prev. , ntion of Murders in Ireland, make s ome statement with respect to those charges pref. rred ag inst me for transactions alleced to have taken place in the years 18 25 . 1827 . and 1829. Upon the R ght Elm. Baronet having sat down, Mr. Disraeli hurriedly left the House, but returned imme diately afterwards, accompanied by Lord George Ben tinek. Mr. PHILIP MILES moved for a copy of the origins . l advertisement for tender s for c irrying her Majasty s mails by stecm to and from I lalifax , an d for a co py of th e printed form of instructions sent to collectors of Cuitoms of the orts, authorised to tender, for the , s or kt , ers of tender handed in at the proper time ttautunis,dlea:ers'e'ft parties ti,c!.. tendering ; also, for copies of the 11) 015 w, re s.-ttle;e'terms of said in , tructio ns . Halifa x in compliance with the ~. th )pies of tenders made after the time, it . any- Copy of ' Halifax, and 1 original contact under which the a d n a c t l 13 , )st•m. Copies of inents made after the he carried between Liverpool and e ,et,supren'reigfinal cm.tract' increase of the term of said said contract, upon any all agree .o.y_the sums paid to the grant for the service. contracting p:.rty to ,late, or of the permanent increase of t e r m ,, and the whether d grants or Copy of the new c ntract entered into or about to be entered into for carrying mails between Liverpool and New York. Th • motion was agreerl to. PRO rEci PEON TO LIFE ',IRELAND) BILL. Oa the motion that the adjourned debate on this Bill b , resumed. Sir ANDREW ARMSTRONG, who was quite in audible in the gallery, addressed the House, as we understood. in opposition to the Bill. Mr. BENNE P said that he had taken a great deal of pains to ascertain, according to his own judgment, WllO4 thQ effect 0' ibis mime wild be, He hast.beeli StJN, told, and he knew, that the Bill was unconstitutional in its principles ; and the great question was whether the present state of affairs justified the application of any such measure. The great want of Ireland at present was security for life and property ; and the position of affairs was certainly somewhat anomalous with regard to those who should be resident in that country. They were told that they would be punished for non-resi dence ; and if they did reside, the probability was that they would be shot from behind their own garden walls. He could not feel, however, that such powers as those now sought for should be accorded to the Government. He had been for a long time in doubt and difficulty on this subject, and he had at length come to the conclu sion that he could not support this measure.—(Hear, hear.) The great evil in Ireland was, that the people were misled—and yet this measure was directed against those who actually committed the evil, and not against those who had misled the people to it.— hy did they not stop the grievance at its source? Why did they not attack that monster grievance agitation, which he believed to have been the source and origin of the present state of crime. The Govern ment of England had never attacked the origin of crime in Ireland. They had not gone to the root of the evil, but they had gone to extremities in order to repress the effects of a system which was working mischief. Tee law of Elizaheth might be applied to Ireland, to compel the landowners to find work for those who were not employed, and if such a measure had been proposed in conjunction with the present Bill, he thought that he could have consented to any degree of severity. It e as, however, a monstrous evil that the language which was used to the people of Ireland was such as to pro duce msichief. The principle of agitation had been in culcated. The people were told to agitate, yet they ‘ve , e told of their millions and their physical strength. It reminded him of the trial of Mr. Cobbett, when there was read from one of his Registers a caution to the peo ple of Dorsetshire and Wiltshire, when so much incendiarism prevailed. Mr. Cobbett said to the people that they were wrong in burning a hay-rick here and there. , for they did little harm, and the diabolical Whigs were watching theta, and would hang them if they could as they would hang him. He, however, mentioned that there were corn fields in the adjacent country, some of which were four or five hundred acres in extent. 'rLi corn was very ripe at that time of the year, and exceedingly inflamable. There were public pathways through it, and he cau tioned them not to smoke their pipes as they passed for fear of a cidents. There was nothing in the nature of the Irish people but what could be changed by edu cation and proper treatment. It was a disgrace to this country tear. so many Governments had failed in manag ing the Irish people. Ireland had been and was the opprobrium of successive Governments. On the present occasion he was sorry he could not join in supporting the Bill before the House, feeling as he did, that it would net cure the state of things complained of. Captain LAYARD thought the Hon. Gentleman who had ju-t sat down was of a very disinterested dis position, when he said the Government had not done their best to put down agitation in Ireland. He was an Englishman, still ho knew a. great deal of Ireland, and he could tell the Hon. Gentleman, who seemed not much acquainted with that country, that the real cause of discontent was the con dition of the people, and the misery they had been enforced to endure. No coercion could put that down. On a former occasion he stated how happy he should be if the Noble Lord (Lord George Bentinck) and his party would join with the Irish Members in de feating the Bill before the House, and he (Captain Layard) now returned thanks to those Members of that, great party who now agreed to vote a rainst the mea sure. With their help he fully trusted that the ob noxious Bill le ould be defeated.—(Hear, hear.) He learned, however, that some Members who had acted with the Noble Lord (Lord George Bentinck) intended to vote for the Bill, and to them he would address him self. They bad, by their proceedings and speeches, de clared they had no confidence in the Right Hon. Baronet and the Government. If so, if they had no faith in the Government, how could they do anything which would put such extraordinary power in the hands of those they could not trust.—(Hear, hear.) The mea sure was an unconstitutional one, and having no faith in the Government they were bound to refuse trusting them with carrying it into effect. This consideration and the fact that the state of things in the five counties had much improved, were reasons sufficient why all those who acted with the Noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck) should oppose the present Bill. He learned, also, with sorrow, that some members on this side of the House—he hoped very few—intended to vote for the Bill. He would ask those what return would that be on the part of those Liberals to the Irish Members, who had come over, at great inconvenience, to support the Corn Bill, by the by, which was not over popular in Ireland ? Still, the Irish Members believing this Corn Bill a good and honest measure, supported it, and it would ill become the Liberal Members to return that support now, by voting for a Bill to coerce the Irish people.—(Hear, hear.) If the present Bill was a bad 13111, no ct nsideration of having a Corn Bill should operate on them to give the former their support. But the Corn Bill was safe ; there could be no doubt as to its success ; and that excuse did not remain for the parties referred to joining with the Government against the Irish people. He believed the evils of Ireland would be best met by finding employment for the people, by the encourage ment of public works; and in this respect he (Capt.Layard) agreed with the sentiments of the Duke of Leinster, who that day had presided over a meeting for forward ing that object. He gave every credit to the Noble Lord (Lincoln) for the measures he had proposed. as a mo . vsnaent . tha_rig!lt dirsatiaa ; still_ they were not so comprehensive as might have been desired. Even the pr. sent distress of Ireland he thought would prove beneficial in i proving Ireland. It had led to the use of Indian corn in place of potatoes, and he was happy to say that wherever that grain was used in preference to potatoes, fever had much decreased.— (Hear, hear.) Ile introduction of Indian corn would lead to a taste for a higher class of food, and the standard of comfort would accordingly be raised. Some apprehended that the union between England and Ireland could not be maintained, but he for one was not of that minion ; as he thought equal laws and equal Government would yet lead to the existence of a united yet free and happy people.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HENLEY said the measure bad been before Parliament since the 15th of March, when it was first printed. It had dragged its length for seven weeks in the House of Lords, and then it found its way to the Commons. It was then read a first time. He was one that thought a measure founded on a message from the Crown, and. coming from the Lords, in deference to that body, should be read without discussion a first time. On that account he voted for the first reading of the Bill. Now, the House must bear in mind that, before any stringent and unconstitutional measure such as that which they were now considering could be passed, they must be convinced that there was a strong case made out.---(Hear, hear.) He was one of those, too, who thought all parties must concur in its expediency before they could pass a severe coercive and unconstitutional measure, and certainly it was not so in the present instance, while he was bound to say a sufficient case had net been made out to justify his voting for the second reading of this Bill. —(Hear.) To show that a case had not been made oat, he referred to the returns which bad been published with regard to the state and extent of crime in Ireland, in which it was manifest that crime had not reached such a pitch as to render the passing of a Coercion Bill neces sary. From the returns he found that the number of homicides committed in all Ireland in 1843 were 106, in 1844, 146, and in 1845, 139; but Governme it said they did not rest the case of this Bill upon the returns re lating to all Ireland, but upon the returns relating to five particular counties. Now he found that the number of homicides committed in these five counties were in 1842, 38 ; in 1845, 42 ; an increase not large enough to justify the passing of the Bill. With regard to attempts at murder, the numbers were for all Ireland. in 1842, 40; for the five counties 13; while in 1845 they were 45, and for the five counties 15. The numberarelating to assaults endangering life were for 1842, 249 ; in 1845, 237, showing a positive decrease. The assaults were in 1845, 229; for the five counties 63, but the numbers of aggravated assaults stood thus—in 1842, 420; in 1845, 545; while the proportions for the five counties were 141. It was clear that these returns did not justify the passing of a stringent Coercion Bill, but the House had recently been put in possession of some returns relating to the present'year. These, however, did not show such an increase in the crime of Ireland as to impress him with a conviction that this Bill ought to be passed. For instance, in the case of aggravated assaults, he found there were 53 mentioned in the return, but on looking to another p mtion of it he found that only 24 were brought to ju-tice These returns then did not make out a case for this Bill, and again he must repeat that after giving the subject nis earnest attention, he could not conscientiously support the second reading of the Bill. No Irish gentleman whom he had yet heard sFeak ire favour of the Bill said that he thought it would do any good at all, and that, in his (Mr. Henley's) opinion, was one of the best reasons why the Bill should not be allowed to proceed. He had carefully reviewed the speeches of those Irish gentlemen, and he must confess, that when none of them maintained that the Bill would effect its objects, he could not understand what induced them to vote in favour of it.—(Hear, hear.) The next question that he had to ask himself was, whether there was any reason if, in his own'judgment, he did not be lieve the measure necessary, he should yield his own judgment to those who supported the measure; because there might be many measures with respect to which, however much one might try to inform themselves, it was their duty at °nee to yield to the judgment of those who might be supposed to be better informed; and he came to the conclusion that that was so upon the present occasion. Now, the First Minister of the Crown, when he spoke of the Bill—if he (Mr. Henley) recollected aright, certainly dwelt very much upon the necessity of Sine measure. He seemed to him "to fight very shy" with the Bill, to use-such an expression. —(Hear, hear, an 3 laughter.) lie appeared to the House in this .posi dun, e Well you by your vote affirfmorthlarteliannyortr d That judg ment something the necessaryargumentH e did n o ot f wishhe Baronet appeared to tatßoigmhits-listoatne. Gentleman' said, and these were his what the Rie ht Non. of the House he would was the course wh is ich no i t th e Robert Peel said, " Sir,—The question read them. Sir h we shall go into Corn we have to decide is not . whet whether have Ministers • which her Majesty's mittee upon the Bill, The question will not be words, and with the permission felt it their duty to propose. wh e th er we s h a ll consider the Bill Its in Committee , for the p ur p ose o f rem oving . anything from i details, an d at that t i me mitiga ting the p rinciple of the Sill, & c., but the question which the Ho use will have to d ec id e w i ll be whether it will reject altogether this proposal- will o i fla justi fication —will can be dealt with by the existing law, and implying opi nions that no additional protection is necessary for the protection of life and property in Ireland." Then, in the hitter put 0 his speech " 411 Y LONDON, iiit - DAV OPT-LIVING, JUNE 10, 1816. man acquainted with the state of Ireland, or acquainted with the alarm which prevails there, can deny the truth of the assertion of her Majesty's Ministers, that measures of some kind or other are indispensible and immediately necessary." Some kind or other, the House would observe—" for the purpose of giving that confidence which the people of that country did not at present possess in the security of their lives and property." Now he (Mr. Henley) must say that when he heard the Right Hon. Baronet thus express himself, he did not think he need be quite so indignant with the Noble Lord who sat behind him in reference to his remarks about the possibility of her Majesty's Government not really intending to proceed with this Bill. The Right Hun. Baronet had said that the Bill could be rectified in Committee, and that ex pression therefore did not show that he entertained a very strong conviction on his mind that it would pass in its present shape. What need he to have been so indignant about the Noble Lord's remarks, when it appeared that the Government had no ob jection to mitigate the Bill when it went into Committee? The proposition of the Government amounted to this, " Would not the House do something to remedy the present condition of Ireland ?" Now, he c k e ow completely itha m atte matter thewhich oo really oduot seemed o f tothe present Government towards Ireland, that he must wa h a i v n esrYtomilulucshtraa struck trouble the House with it. In the returns there was the name of William Middleton. Esq , who was described as having been attacked, or having had one of the usual outrages committed upon him. About one o'clock in the morning, it appeared that a shot was fired into Mr. Mid dleton's dwelling, and the ball lodged in the door. Mr. Middleton went out, but having seen no person, what did he do ? He fired a shot as a signal of defiance. — (Hear, and laughter.) Now that seems a very Irish way of doing business, because he (Mr. Henley) should have thoug,ht that he would have kept his shot in case of emergency. Now, he thought that the conduct of Mr. Middleton was something like that of the Government. They fired this shot into Ireland to defy Ireland. He thought that it was not a good practice to show your teeth when you did not mean to bite. He thought that every gentleman connected with Ireland on his side of the House would agree with him that it would be better, if they did not mean to '• bite" the people, that they should not show their teeth. Well, now, having disposed of this question of firing a shot of defiance against Ireland, the next question he had to ask himself was, whether there was anything in the conduct of the present Government towards Ireland that should induce any man to go into a wild inquiry for the purpose of forming an opinion as to the way in which the Irish quttsti,n should be settled? Supposing they agreed to go into Committee on the present con dition of Ireland, Hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House would get up and move instructions as to what they were to do with rsgard to Ireland. Suppose, for instance, tie. Hon. Member for Hereford would get up, and would move as an instruction about the removal of what he culled the monster grievance of Ireland. That was not at all unlikely. Well, then, there were many other matters that would be discussed. The Hon. Mem ber for Stroud would no doubt get up, and move his in struction on the question of Irish grievances. He would get up undoubtedly, and say that the best means of stopping the murders in Ireland would be by feeding her people—(Hear, hear)—and that he (Mr. Henley) cer tainly thought was one of the best means of improving the social condition of Irelard.—(Hear, hear.) It was made to appear by the returns that many of the outrages in Ireland were not of an agrarian character, but no sen sible reasons for these outrages were given. He (Mr. Henley) believed that the majority of them were really attributable to the conduct of landlords. Then the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork (Mr. O'Connell) would no doubt propose something in the Committee, that would have for its object the improvement of the present tenure of land in Ireland. Some Hon. Gentlemen, too, on his (Mr. Henley's) side of the House, would no doubt propound some nostrums of their own. Suppose the Noble Lord the Member for London were also to put in his instruction in Committee —suppose the Noble Lord were to say, "Look at the state of Ireland in 1842 ; see whether the common law is not sufficient." He thought the Noble Lord might very fairly say that, because he did not suppose that anybody would say that the Arms Bill was an invasion of the common law; he never heard anybody say in that House that that was a measure which had done either good or harm.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that there was more trouble in pass ing the measure through that House than it had caused to the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He had certainly never yet heard any one complain that that Bill had done any injustice. He believed that if the Go vernment governed Ireland firmly and justly, they would feel no alarm as to the result which that conduct would have on the people of that country. He believed that if they put properly into force the common law, they would no longer hear of the long catalogues of crime com mitted in Ireland. The common law had been properly put in force in this country, and it had been found to be sufficient. He believed, too, that the system of agi tation that was suffered to continue in Ireland tended, in a great measure, to the commission of those fearful outrages of which they were continually hearing. In the 3 ears 1844 and 1845 hundreds of people attended at the monster meetings. Great expectations, which have not been fulfilled, were held out to them. Disorganisation followed—the people were thrown into despair—and a fearful number of outrages was the consequence. He had looked very carefully over those returns, and he could not find out on what grounds the Government called upon the House to vote for this Bill. He believed that if they meant to remedy the evils of Ireland, they could not effect it by coercive measures like this. He was one of those who thought that they could out aumod the condition of the people except they set about improving their social condition. They must give them the means of being fed and educated. He had trespassed on the attention of the House longer than he could have wished, but the subject was of so much importance that he deemed it necessary to state fully the reasons why he should vote against the Bill. He had been at some pains in fully informing him self on the question, and be came to the conclusion, that the Government had not made out a case to justify the enactment of this measure. Ho believed, as far as he could judge, that with a proper tribunal, properly used, they would be able to put down crime in Ireland. Let them increase the police force in Ireland, as had been re commended by the inhabitants of the disturbed counties. He did not think that the Government had acted wisely in attempting to conciliate first one political party and subsequently another' He believed, that that policy had not been beneficial to Ireland. He might be in error, but he had given this subject a most careful con sideration. It was true, he might have formed an erro neous conclusion. Five counties, it had been said, were in a disturbed state, but he did not think that the House would be justified in passing such a coercive measure as this with regard to the whole of Ireland.—(Hear.) He was one of those who regretted much that there was so much difference between the legislation with regard to Ireland and England.—(Hear.) He wished that mea sures of the same kind were brought forward for the benefit of both countries. He believed that no person upon earth would vote for this measure, if it were to extend to England.—(Hear.) He was determined to vote for Irish measures on the same grounds as he voted for English measures. —(Hear, hear.) Now he would not vote for such a measure as this for England upon the evidence that bad been laid before them, and he was determined not to vote for this measure for Ire land on such evidence.—(Hear, hear.) He should, therefore, vote against the second reading of this Bill. Sir H. W. BARRON regretted that the persons more immediately connected with the Government of Ireland had not been in their places to have heard the statements and arguments of the Hon. Member who had just sat down. H o cons id ered hi s argume nts were formed upon com mon sense, and were perfectly unan swerable. He did not t hi nk that any E ng li s h Member, not under the i n fl uence of the M i n i stry , wou ld dare to vote for the Bill i n i ts or i ginal state . Th e Bill would - be a complete failure, and would be a great source of an noyance to all parties. All measures of this nature had failed, because they did not go to the root of the evil. —(Hear, hear.) He believed that the disturbances in Ireland were confined to two or three of the midland counties in Ireland, and, in his opinion, the common law was quite powerful enough to suppress these outrages. If the stipendiary magistracy and th e constabulary of the country were increased, they would be able to put an end to these disgraceful scenes. It was useless to say this could not be done. Within the last ten years a much greater disturbance had existed in Clare ; this was put down by the exertions of the Exe cutive. It was contrary to the principles of the British constitution, to the dictates of common sense, and to the feelings of humanity, to attempt to govern Ireland in this manner. The Government must learn to govern that country upon the same principles and by the same laws by which she governed Ire land. The present measure was only a sop to a party in Ireland who considered that nothing but coercive measures were to be adopted for some portion of their fellow countrymen. It was his opinion that the Government sheuld provide the means of employment for the peopleo specially agricultural employment, esta blish agricultural schools, and hold out inducements to landlords to improve their estates, by advancing them sums of money; they should also be assisted in the promotion of their public works. The Government had hitherto been very niggardly in their advances to that country ; these advances had also been punctually repaid ; and what was the greatest injury of all was that the people of Ireland had been compelled to pay 5 per cent. for these loans, while sums of money had been granted for the promotion of public works in England at 3f percent. Sir R. PEEL—What public works have had the money at 3f per cent? Sir H. W. BARRON—I have not the returns in my hand ' • but from the returns which have been laid upon the table of the House, I think it could be shown that there were several loans which had been granted at 31 per cent. With regard to the question how they were to govern Ireland without the Coercion Bill, he would say that their course would be exceedingly easy if they followed up the spirit in which the Bills relating to Ireland had been introduced by the Secretary for Ireland. He would, therefore, advise them to lay by coercion— it would do no good; on the contrary, it would do a great deal of harm, and would create distrust and inimi cal feeling towards the Government. He had no sym pathy with the perpetrators of the outrages in Ireland, but he conceived that the only thing which would put down crime would be employment, education, and sym pathy with the wants of the people. He could assure them that the miseries of Ireland could not be removed by one, or two, or three years of attention on the part of Government; it would take a long course of conciliation, and firmness in the discharge of justice.—(Hear, hear.) He would vote against the Bill, not only on account of the manner in which it was introduced to the House, but because he believed its principle was bad, and he was convinced it was unneces sary. From the manner in which the Bill was intro dnced he felt certain that the Government did not feel that there was a necessity for the measure. It was forced upon them by a party in Ireland ; for if it was not, and the ciwomont felt 5 miniciatigus cirtigtiou of its necessity, they had neglected the interests of the country by not pushing it forward more actively than they had done. Captain FITZMAURICE said he would give his vote in the same manner as he had done upon a former oc casion ; he had received a letter from his constituents, praying that he would not allow any personal feeling he might have towards the Government to interfere with his vote upon the present occasion. He might be told that in voting on this measure he would be voting against his own party ; but he would be a clever man who could precisely say which was his party. The other night he went with the Noble Member for Lynn into one lobby. That night he would not find him in it again, although there had been since that time no change in his (Captain Fitzmaurice's) opinions. There had been many allusions made to the decrease of crime, but he could show such weighty reasons why the Protection Bill s h ou ld rece i ve the as sent of that House, that he did not think any Member could personally refuse to support the measure. He would ask Hon. Gentlemen opposite, could they call all their property their own ? If a man were a worse work man than another he would be superseded, and thus dissatisfaction would be engendered. He had lived in most of the counties of Ireland, and found that the fac tions not only ejected parties, but prevented those willing to work from obtaining employment. Under these circumstances would any landlord find pleasure in endeavouring to promote the welfare of the people? He believed that many a man under the influence of passion had committed crimes which, in soler moments he bitterly regretted. The great evil of Ireland was that it was under the influence of factions. The Hon. Member then adduced several instances of murder having been committed in various parts of Ire land ; and amongst other instances he stated that of a girl who was murdered in a tcottage, her head cut from her body and nailed to the door.—(Several Members here exclaimed " When and where.") Captain FITZMAURICE—In the county of Gal way. He had merely addaced this as one of the many instances of dreadful outrage which occurred in the country, and which called for the interference of Parlia ment. He thanked the House for their attention to his observations, and should certainly vote for the second reading of the Bill. Mr. HAWES said it was strange that the Gallant Officer should allude to circumstances that had happened in Ireland twenty years ago, in order to justify his con sent to a Bill which had for its object the suppression of violence that had only recently been recorded as having occurred. He would admit at once that the delay which had taken place with respect to the present Bill was inevitable, and, under the circumstances which the Governmentwas placed, was fully justifiable. The Hon. Gentleman then alluded to the - statement of Mr. Cahill, in 1830, as to the number of committals in Ireland, show ing that they diminished in number and atrocity up to the year 1836 ; so that if any judgment were come to from the numbcr of committals in Ireland with respect to the amount of crime, it could not be borne out by facts. Having now stated these facts, he would now come to the reasons advanced for the Bill. Was there then that increase of crime in Ireland which justified the present measure ? What were the proofs furnished by the Government ? They put upon the table a variety of police returns and official criminal tables. When he examined them, however, he found that the case entirely failed, and he would now call the attention of her Majes ty's Government to these returns. First, he would refer to the committals. Since 1842, the number was 21,100 ; in the year 1843, 20,000 ; and in 1844, 19,100. There was in this return, therefore, a regular progressive dimi nution of crime. Nothing could be more decisive of the decrease of crime in Ireland. The gross decrease of 1845, as compared with 1844, was 14 per cent. As to the murders in 1842, they amounted to 189 ; in 1843, to 101 ; in 1844, to 129 ; and in 1845, to 92—again showing a marked decrease. As to manslaughter, there was also a progressive diminution in that species of crime. So much for the official criminal returns. He now came to the special returns. He would not dwell upon outrages which had been committed in Ireland, as that part of the subject had been so well handled by the Hon. Member for Cork, as to render it unnecessary for him to say a word. In 1842, the number was 6,542 ; in 1843, 5,875 ; in 1844, 6,327 ; and in 1845, 8,000. There was in the last year a considerable increase in the returns. This was owing to the additional number of threatening notices. But how, he would ask, would they be able to prevent!, that 'offence by the present Bill ? These notices might still be given whether the Bill were in operation or not. As to the outrages, there were four classes of offences which had increased. The first was threatening notices—the second was the admi nistration of unlawful oaths. But now he would again ask would this Bill prevent the commission of either of those offences ? They could not prevent the latter class by the present Bill. Under these two heads, therefore, there was no remedy. The third class related to rob beries of arms ; but they alrrady had their Arms' Bill, which had failed to effect the object for which it was intended; and from the failure of that Bill he would venture to deduce the failure of this also, as they were both based upon the same erroneous principles. Let it be also recollected that under the head of homicides all persons who heti lost their lives at fairs, markets, strug gles for land, and from any other l cause, were included. The Hon. Member then quoted the returns of crime during the years from 1842 to 1846, showing that a great decrease had taken place. He attributed all the crime in Ireland to the miserable condition of the pea santry. The Government were now adopting the old and fatal policy which had worked so much evil in that country. Instead of giving a Coercion 8.11, they should bring forward measures which would better the condi /fon Orthe poop/e. lla had shown that ..rime in Ireland had considerably diminished—this he had proved from the Government returns, and was this the period to bring forward such a measure? He found that the value of land was increasing in Ireland, the woollen trade was in creasing, and the consumption of all excisable articles was also increasing. This at once proved that the state of the country was much improved, for crime would not allow anything like prosperity. Under all the circum stances which he had brought forward, he felt that he was justified in opposing this Bill. The social condition of the Irish people had been more distinctly exposed to view in England than it ever had been for years before. There had been Commissioners of considerable talent, who had been able thoroughly to expose to view the Irish character. England, asifar as could be seen,:from: the result of the inquiries which had been made, must prepare to govern Ireland on a far more rational prin ciple. This country must be prepared to use Irish in strumentality in the direction of so large and important a nation. These were the views on the subject which he had felt bound to offer to the House, and he hoped that the Government would not further waste the time of Parliament by persisting in this measure. Was it acceptable to Ire land ? No ; for he had observed that only one gentle man in that House—a gentleman of good family and considerable influence in Ireland—had thought it his duty to support this measure. No other Irish Member had in any way assented to the Bill. All the Irish Members on his side of the House (the Opposition) had opposed the measure, and all the Irish Members en the other side of the House had - expressed their belief that the Bill would be utterly inefficacious for the pur poses for which it was framed. One of the consequences of their system of government in Ireland was, that it had increased the value of property, while it had not touched or remedied the condition of the people. The course of injustice towards that country had been so in tolerable, that he wondered that as yet no struggle had been made to check it course. Lord FRANCIS EGERTON said it would appear that an attempt was to be made to defeat this measure by a strange combination of parties, who might be act ing in perfect honesty, but whose conduct, especially those on that side of the House, would be scarcely CQ11• sistent with their votes and speeches. He had been in clined to have remained silent; but after the speeches of the Noble Lord .the Member for the City of London, and the Hon. Member who had just sat down, he had been induced to break silence. He would not go into the whole facts and figures given by the Hon. Member, though it had been stated that a considerable diminu tion of crime had taken place. With regard to the crimes committed in the five counties to which special reference was made, it had been shown that a diminu tion had taken place in only one county, while an in crease had taken place in the other counties to about sixty par cent.—(Hear, hear.) What they had to consider was, whether the ordinary operation of the law would suffice to meet the evils complained of, and the probability of the Bill operating as ar, medy. It had been shown by repeated instances, that the ordinary law could not reach the crimes com mitted, and that nothing but some extraordinary remedy, such as the Bill before the House, would be effective in reaching the sources of evil. If the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London came into power, he (Lord F. Egerton) had no doubt, notwithstanding all his benevolent intentions, he would soon be obliged to come to the House to pass a similar Bill to that they were now considering. He would in that case, if as satisfac tory a case was made out for such a Bill as had been made for the present, feel it to be his duty to support him. He was quite persuaded that many of the outrages and crimes complained of arose from the compacts of secret associations, and he felt persuaded that were the power given to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act, when ever a district was in a disturbed state, a great deal would be done towards bringing it into a state of peace. If the Government had adopted the course recommended by the Noble Lord, and had come down to that House to ask for increased military force, he for one was con vinced they would have been answered with declama tions against the use of the bayonet. He thought this was a sufficient answer to the charge urged against the Government by the Noble Lord, that they had neglected to resort to the usual and constitutional means for re ducing or preventing crime in Ireland. It had been con tended, in the cour se o f thi s d e b ate, that the increase in crime in Ireland was more attributable to political causes than anything else ; but lie (Lord F. Egerton) was sure it arose out of social evils, and was convinced of the necessity for passing this measure. There were portions of this debatewhich he had listened to with some little an noyance end regret. Some Hon. Members had gone be youd the tone and temper which usually characterised their discussions, and he regretted exceedingly to have heard expressions which were not justified by the ordinary usages of the House, and which, for the sake of its own reputation and character, ought seldom or never to be resorted to.—(R ear, h ear. ) Th e Honourable Mem ber for Shrewsbury had stepped forward he a(s the Lord supporter of such expressions ; but Francis Eg er t on ) thought, when Hon. Members made great sacrifices for the sake of a public interest, it ought at least to protect them from unseemly and indecorous attacks. The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury, however, justified the usage of such ex pressions as "paid Janis saries," by quo ti ng similar expressions in former de bates ; but he (Lord Francis Egerton) thought evidence might be found forany n onsense or any violence.— He had(Cheers.) certainly made c a rather lengthy f speech on thasubjeet of the corn-laws at the last elec. tiOn i in Wbioh be 44111"11 e d we b angi opinion on that subject. lie had no hopes of increasing his support by that avowal ; on the contrary, he believed that as the subject of the corn-laws was at that moment a thorny one, he would certainly lose a great deal of support, but he did not purchase any votes to secure his return. If the Noble Lord meant by his expression to charge the supporters of the Government with being influenced by mercenary motives, he would only say that the charge was most unjust. At that late hour of the night he did not think he had any right to occupy the attention of the House any longer. The measure, as he understood, was a tem porary one, and intended to prevent a temporary evil. Without speculating on the probability of the position in which the Government would be placed by the de cision of the House on this question, he must say that he was prepared to vote on a measure like this, which had been fairly investigated and recommended by men of property and intelligence in Ireland. He felt, for one, as an English Member, that he should not be justified on this occasion if he refused to send this Bill into Committee, and he should therefore vote for its second reading.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. B. HAWES having explained, The debate was adjourned till to-morrow, on the mo tion of Mr. S. CRAWFORD. SERVICE OF HEIRS (SCOTLAND) BILL. The LORD ADVOCATE having moved the order of the day that the House go into Committee on this subject, Mr. F. MAULE inquired what was the object of the Bill, when The LORD ADVOCATE explained that its object was to improve the present system, which was a very loose one, and to make the proceedings entirely u j dicia The Bill had been drawn up i n accordance with the re commendation of the Commissi oners w h o had been ap pointed to inquire into this subject. Mr. F. MAULE said he would reserve anything he had to say till a future day. The House then went into Committee, and the several clauses were agreed to. CROWN CHARTERS BILL (SCOTLAND). This Bill also went through Committee. COUNTY WORKS PRESENTMENT (IRELAND) AMENDMENT BILL. The House then went into Committee on this Bill. Clauses up to 7 were agreed to with a few verbal amendments. After some short discussion clause 8 was agreed to. Upon clause 9, Mr. REDINGTON rose to observe on the conduct of the overseers appointed under the Bill, who employed incompetent persons to carry out the works. He had also to complain that when be suggested that power to present for new roads. should be given, that the Go vernment had opposed him with the objection that there was no clause empowering compensation to be given to those persons from whom land must necessarily be taken, but it appeared that the present Amendment Bill had a provision for compensating such persons as had been damaged by the widenning of roads. Now this was hardly a fair method of meeting a suggestion. There was also a clause providing for the payment of the overseer at a certain rate, which he considered far too much, and which he did not consider should be in serted at all, as there was no provision made for the payment of the labourer. He would, therefore, move for the omission of the words in the clause limiting the payment. The Earl of LINCOLN had no objection to accede to the amendment of the Hon. Gentleman, if the House were of opinion that there should be no limitation as to Payment. After a few words from Lord EmuNcToll and Sir R. FERGUSON, the amendment was agreed to. Clauses up to 17 having been agreed to, On the question that clause 18 should be agreed to, which provided for the advance of money for public works, at the rate of 5 per cent. on Irish counties, a long and very desultory discussion ensued, Mr. Hudson, Mr. Redington, Mr. W. S. O'Brien, and Sir W. Somer ville taking part against the Government. Lord LINCOLN contended that 5 per cent. was the maximum rate, while it was still in the option of the Government to reduce that interest, if circumstances justified them in doing so. Mr. HUDSON ithought that 4 per cent. should be fixed as the maximum. The clause, after some discussion, was passed. The Bill was then agreed to, and it was to be received to day (Friday). The other orders of the day were agreed to, and the House adjourned at a Quarter to Two o'clock. PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS. .From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons. WEDNESDAY, JIINE 17. RAILWAY BILLS (GROUP 33). Report, That the parties promoting the Warwickshire and London Railway (Worcester and Weedon ?trench) Bill, had stated to the Committee that the evidence of Sir Willoughby Gorden was essential to enable them to establish their ea.e before the Committee ; and it having been proved that his attendance could not be procured withoutithe intervention of the House, the Chairman bad been in structed by the Committee to move the Rouse that he do attend the said Committee forthwith. Also, Report, That the parties promoting the Warwickshire and London Railway (Worcester and Weedon Branch) BilL; had stated to the Committee that the evidence of Colonel Nathaniel Thorn was essential to enable them to establish their case before the Com mittee ; and it having been proved that his attendance could not be procured without the intervention of the House, the Chairman had been instructed by the Committee to move the House that he do attend the said Committee forthwith. Ordered—That Sir Willoughby Gordon and Colonel Nathaniel Thorn do atteud the said Committee forthwith. RAILWAYS. Select Committee on Group No. 48. General Johnson discharged; Sir H. Elphiustone selected, and added to the Committee. • - • ~mat VONMplttift. mr Vrintp. 2.70. Sir J. Trellope discharged ; Sir G. Strickland selected, and added to the Committee. The Committee of Selection have appointed the Select Committee on Group No. 66 to meet on Thursday, June 23, at one o'clock. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. ;From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons WEDNESDAY; JUNE 17 NAVAL CIVIL DEPARTMENTS BILL. Order for Second Reading read ; Motion made, and Question pro posed, " That the Bill be now read a second time :"—Amendment proposed, to leave out the word " now," and at the end of the Question to add the words " upon this day six months :"—Question Put, " That the word ' now' stand part of the Question." The House divided : MINORITY-AYES, 11. Bridgeman, fl. Morris, David Wain, J T. Crawford, W. S. Pechell, Captain James, William Plumridge, Captain TELLERS. M'Carthy, Alexander Power, James rapier, Sir C. Martin, J. Rashleigh, W. Ingestro, Viset. MAJORITY-NOES, 107. Alexander, IC. Finch, George Mostyn, E. 31. Allis, J. P. Fitzroy, Henry Neeld, Joseph Antrobus, Edmund Forbes, Wm. Neville, Ralph lt Bayrright, G. Forster, Mathew Nichol John Austen, Colonel Fuller, A. E. Packe, C. W. Bailey, Joseph Gibson, T. M. Palmer, Robert Baillie, Colonel Gill, Thomas Palmer, G. Baine, Walter Godson, Richard Peel, Jonathan Barkly, Henry Gordon, Captain Pennant, Colonel Baring, W. B. Goulburn, Henry Reid, Colonel Blackburne, J. I. Graham ' Sir J. Round, C. Bowles, Admiral Greene, Thomas Round, John Brotherton, J. Grimsdttch, Thomas Scrope, G. P. Bruce, Lord E. Grogan, E. seymer, Henry Ker Bruges, W. H. L. Rale, R. B. Seymour, Sir H. Buck, L. W. Hamilton, G. A. Sheppard, T. Burroughes, H. N. Hamilton, Lord C. Smith, Abel Cardwell, Edward Henley, J. W. Smythe, George Carew, W. H. Pole Herbert, Sidney Somerset, Lord G. Carnegie, Captain Hodgson, Richard Spooner, Richard Clerk, Sir G. Hohnes, W. A'C. Staunton, Sir G. Clive, Viscount Hope, Sir J. Stuart, Henry Cockburn, Sir G. Hume, Joseph Sutton, H. M. Compton, H. C. Jennyn, Earl Trench, Sir F. W. Corry, H. Jocelyn, Viscount Trevor, G. Darner, Colonel Jones, Captain Trollope, Sir J. Deedes, W. Legh, G. C. Trotter, John Divett, E. Lincoln, Earl of Turner, Edmund Douglas, Sir H. Lockhart, W. Vesey, Hon. T. Douglas, Sir C. Lowther, Hon. Col. Wellesley, Lord C. i Duncombe, A. Mackenzie, W. F. Wodehouse, E. Dundas,•Admiral Mackinnon, W. A. Wood. Charles Du:Pre, C. O. M.Neill, Duncan Wortley, J. S. East, J. B. Maule, Fox Escott, BickhEuu • 31eyne1l, Captain maims. FeHowes, E. Idiles, Philip W. S. Baring, henry Ferguson, Sir R. Miles, William Cripps, W. THE MAILS.--SOUTHAMPTON, JUNE 1 7.—The Pe ninsular Company's steaus-ship Queen, Capt. Russell, arrived in the docks at eleven P.M. yesterday from Gibraltar, and landed mails to the following dates, which were forwarded to London by the two A.M. train this day :—Gibraltar, Jane 5; Cadiz, Gth ; Lisbon, 10th ; Oporto, 11th ; Vigo, 12th ; and Coruna* 13th. The Queen has brought home sixty-three passengers. and a cargo of fruit. The I'acha, Captain Burney, left the docks at three P.M. this day. with the mails for Gibraltar, Cadiz. Lisbon, Corunna, &c., her average number of passengers, and a toll cargo. The Royal West India Mail packet the Medway. Captain Andrew; left the port at three P.M. this day, with the West India mails, forty-seven passengers, and a full cargo of goods. THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE POST-OFFICE.— In consequence of the recent order of his Lordship the Postmaster- General, with reference to the early delivery of general post letters in the metropolis, a variety of alterations are in contemplation, or have been already arranged, for the more effective administration of the subordinate departments. It is said that the majority of the City walks will be so " cut," or shortened, that the delivery will be easily accomplished within the hour, and that the internal duty is to be so arranged that the whole of the inland letter carriers will leave the office In St. Martin's-le-Grand by eight o'clock in the morning. A rumour is also rife that, in order to effect th s change the heads g. h it e "l inland; and the ep departments have advised the abolition of Kingdomth eo ; pti o i the it h l systemsear a o t f i o l o o f i t complete pay menteforoentglnetatnedrsshpiopstleedttlenrs the ir om i.Ti t i clas sification of the whole of the men, both general and London district ; the foreign and ship letters to be delivered and prepared by a distinct class of senior men, who may have the option of being drafted from the body for that purpose according to their seniority. SALE OF ADvtree the following SONS.—On Wedn es d a y a fternoon, Mr. Alderman Farebrother disposed of by auction, at Garrawa) , '-'s of advowsons In the counties of Essex, Kent, anclS o uffo ee lk : The first was the right of presentation to the valuable since ur R of 3', about elghs miles from Colchester. The value it was about 9041. per annum, including the right of Pre sentation to the Vicarage of Mint Tey. It was sold for 9,80 01 . T he next was nt the right of present a ti on t o th e R ec t or y of Klngsthine,anear.t 5001. The Canterbury. The rent charge, in lieu of tithes, amounted t w o as 300. This was about parish contained 1,520 acres, and the population of the perpetnal bought for 2,9501. The third property e° of Hemptom-curnHen right of presentation to the united Rectoryi A ~,, d'a, in the diocese of Ely. grove, four miles from Bury St. ..16'1,yi*/. 13s. 44., which was subject The annual value was estimated at fetehe _, d 0 2001. to deductions of about 1261. TI 1 AND ScIENTIFIC INSTlTU members of this institution took lift:Albion Tavern, Aldersgate-street. The Right place on Wednseday at t p r i o 3 re f . — A R A Y d L ii E m ß e ° r Presided on the occasion, and was supported Hon. Lord Brougham . Sall, Bart., Sir C. Napier, [Jr. Copeland, &c. The N of E the LlT , E nd it s A a t a Y which was founded in 1*32, have hitherto by Sir Benj amin this s t of a sombre hue, but at the present time there is a been sornewha of the treasurer of 421., a circumstance Lord balance ht favour prospects offathiniu the course of his speech Lobe " lirougbam stated in institution. annals of institutions ." The object the committee have now in the in view is to create a fund for the pu rckas e of premises, and to this purpose Lord Brougham subscribed 100/., Sir C. Scott and Co., 201., Sir 13. Hall. 501., Sir C. Napier, 51., besides many other gentlemen, whose combined eflorts have produced a suns amounting to nearly 5001. - STEAM NAVIGATION.—The Bill just introduced into the House of Commons, by the Government, " for the regulation of steam navigation, and for requiring sea-going vessels to carry boats," consists of 31 clauses. Its principal proposals are to enact that sea going steamers shall be divided by water-tight partitions; and that sea-going vessels shall be provided with boats, if they be 200 tons or upwards. A penalty of not exceeding 100/. is to be incurred by tke owner and not exceeding 501. by the master, if these provisions are not attended to. Customs' officers, too, are not to clear out vessels not complying. Steamers are to keep to their starboard side in meeting or passing any other vessel ; and steamers within ten miles , of the coast are to exhibit lights at night, under a penalty of 207. a night ; and owners of steamers not so exhibiting them are not to be entitled to compensation for damage received in consequence. Customs' officers are not to clear out vessels except upon the produc tion of certificate of registry. Accidents and losses of steamers are to be rePoTted to Ate Board of Trade ; =ILI caNs Of acecidczt, ttet ri res? &Mint inapctertio rept, • RAILWAY COMMITTEES. (YESTERDAY.) HOUSE OF LORDS. DIRECT LONDON AND poitTsmorrz. GUILDFORD, CHICHESTER, PORTSAIOIITS/ arra partzmaza. Their Lordships met this morning at the usual hour, in Room A, ','New Houses of Parliament), Lord Beaumont in the chair. AU the members were present. The evidence on the part of the Guildford, Chichester, Ports mouth, and Fareham line was proceeded with. Mr. Tite., the eminent architect and surveyor, and some other witnesses, were examined as to the valuation of land, &c. ; they gave evidence highly favourable to the promoters of this Bill. Mr. Pope, the coal-merchant, and other witnesses, gave evidence as to the probable coal traffic en this and on the Direct London and Portsmouth line. His evidence was in favour of the Guildford and Chichester Railway. The Committee were occupied with this class of evidence up to the time we went to press. The case for the promoters of the Guildford and Chichester line being completed, that on the part of Mr. Dixon, a petitioner against the Direct London and Portsmouth was taken. Mr. Dixon himself gave evidence as to the manner in which hie property would be affected, and evidence as to a deviation, by which he said the residental damage might be avoided. A conversation here arose, which ended in an agreement between the promoters, that the deviation proposed by Mr. Jordan should be adopted, in case the Bill should pass. The case on the part of Mr. Coles, another petitioner, was then opened, and several witnesses were examined. The case for Lord Egmont, also petitioning against the Bill, was then opened. His Lordship was examined in support of h JEOWII case, and after examining a few more witnesses the Com mittee rose at about five minutes past four, and adjourned till to-morrow. EDINBURGH AND NORTHERN (STRATE— ERN DEVIATION, AND DUNFERMLINE BRANCH). The Committee on this Bill also met for the first time, at eleven o'clock, in Room(Committee-fooms in Abingtlon-etreet), Lord Portman in the chair. The other members present were Earls Dude and Pomfret, and Lord Carteret. The Committee were occupied for nearly an hour with a dismission as to what course should be taken, and at abo ut a q uarter to twelve o'clock they adjourned till Monday, in order to give time for an arrangement between the agents. AR TCheXlCASommGitt7eliron'thXis I n Ts ill M m .A. et ß fo N r OCE, AND morning, in Room B TIROSSAN. Verulani, and Eflin n e. Mr. Austin and Nt r. Sergeant a the first time at eleven this (New Houses of Parliament). The members are Earl Roden (chair ) li , the Marquis of Ormonde, and Earls King stun, and Sir Thomas Phillips and Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway ground r, oe residental damages. Mj. Pickering for the Glasgow, Paisley, B _Masts appeared for the promoters, Port land, who opposed the Bill on theonipany, and for the Duke of Port- Mr. AusTIN opened the case for e promoters at great length. The Learned Counsel then proceeded to describe pm railway, stating the population of the various to c w o n u s rs through e intended railway, passed, and the probable expense of its construction, and concluded Company lned landowner were by submitting that the Ayr Company had no toms atand i , and that therefore iic or f t ic h E e a ir iN op , p s o u s b it m i t t t e e o d u t l h d a i t io t t h b e e A m yr alnta affected by the:line, that they were described in the book of reference s as such, and that as such they had a right to appear on their petition. even though they did not say in that petition that they were land owners affected by the line. Mr. AUSTIN said that the practice of Parliament was to admit ne petition which had not the ground of opposition stated on the face of it. A long and desultory conversation, or rather squabble, took place here between Mr. Austin, on one side, and Sir T. Phillips and Mr. Pickering on the other, axd the Committee, as soon as they could restore order, decided on obtaining the opinion of Lord Shaftes bury, and they adjourned for:half-an-hour for that purpose. At half past 1, the half-hour having expired, the chairman returned, and thrther adjourned the Committee till 2 o'clock. At about half-past two the Committee re-assembled, and gave their decision, that the opposition on the part of the Ayr Company could not be entertained. Mr. R. Cumming, a magistra te at Kilmarnock, was then called, and gave general evidence in favour of the line. At the conclusion of this gentleman's evidence, Mr. TALBOT (who now appeared ter the petitioner, the Duke of Portland,) said that in consequence of the decision of the Committee, he had to propose that the Committee should now adjourn, in order to give time for the preparation of some clauses which Ile intended to propoge, and which would, he anticipated, meet the views of the promoters of the Bill. In that case the opposition of the Duke of Portland would be withdrawn. After much discussion as to what course should be taken, it was ultimately agreed that the preamble should be passed, and that the Committee should then adjourn till Monday. The evidence was then continued pro /omit I. Mr. Lock gave the engineering evidence.—The steepest gradient was 1 in 75, which occurred at the commencement of the line for 1 mile 2 furlongs, and also near Kilmarnock, for a somewhat smaller distance. There was also a gradient of 1 in 80 for about halt a mile. These were the ruling gradients in many lines in that part of Scotland. With these three exceptions, the gradients were very light indeed, being in fact almost level. • The Earl of Eglinton was next called. lie gave evidence very strongly in favour of the line. The Committee then declared the preamble proved, and adjourned till Monday at twelve o'clock. GROUP 111. SHEFFIELD AND LINCOLNSKIRE JUNCTION. The Committee met at eleven o'clock, When the Shefdeld and Lincolnshire Junction line was taken. Mr. HILDYARD, ou behalf of the promoters, Stated that, in Conse quence of the passing of the London and York Bill, the Company bad determined to restrict their line to the conamunlCatiOn between Swinton and Doncaster, and called Mr. Mordon, who stated that through the facilities offered by this line, and the communication that must be established between it and the:Eastern Counties, the Barnsley coal-lield, which i6, - ich in its beds, will be made available for the service of the counties Of Vn colnshire, the East Riding of Yorkshire, Norfolk. Suffolk , and Essex, which now can only obtain their coal through the agency of an el pensive land carriage or of a long sea voyage. Mr. Sergeant WICANGHAM, on behalf of the Doncaster and Wake field Company, was about to cross-examine the witness as to the fa cilities which would be afforded by that line. Mr. HILDYARD thought that his Learned Friend ought to be re stricted to the cross-examination on the evidence. To this Mr. Sergeant Witaiscusta demurred. Mr. HILDYARD had then no objection, provided he were allowed to continue the examination in chief to ascertain the respective merits of the Swinton and Doncaster and the Doncaster and Wake field lines. Mr. Sergeant Waikscukir objected to this, and the room wag cleared to ascertain how the communication should be effecttd. When the parties were re-admitted the chairman, Lord SOitEsa, state!. that the counsel for the Sheffield and Lincolnshire liner having stated that they did not set up their line as a competing line with the Doncaster and Wakefield line, the Committee were of opinion that the former company could not be heard as competitors. Mr. I'AGET cross-examined Mr. Morton, and a model of the country ,was shown, in which were the three places where the Barnsley coal was prOd...-.-5tt..1.011., wlramansF is wand its raoighbonarlhoodl, and Elsecar. It was proposed to carry the Silkestone coal down then Sheffield and Wakefield line, through a branch to Bardecks, a dis tance of a mile and a half, and thence to Barnsley. There are branches projected by both the Sheffield and Wakefield, and the, Doncaster and Wakefield lines, both of which are identical. ana' have passed the House of Commons. It was then proposed to get to Barnsley by the Darfield branch, the distance being about five miles. They then get on the Midland Railway, and run upon it. to Wath for about two miles. They quitted the Midland near to the Swinton station at Wath-upon-Dearne. The other point where they could leave the line is Swinton, a distance of about four miles. From thence they went to Doncaster, where they travelled. along the London and York to Gainsborough. From ;Swinton to; Doncaster is about nine miles. They intended to carry coal from Stainborough, which is close to Worsberough, but not from the latter place, the distance from one place to the other being about live miles. He did not propose ti carry any coals from Elsecar, and he could not say that one-third of the coals carried came from Elsecar ; nor could he say that one other third was carried from Worsborough, averaging 200,000 tons for each. The Worsborough pits are the property of Mr. Bennett Martin, and the Elsecar pits belong to Earl Fars - 1111am. The, Silkestoue coal supplied the major part of the domestic consumption. but the witness could not say that only one-third of the whole of the coal was brought up from the several pits. The price of carriage wag to be a penny per ton per mile for a distance of fifty miles, and three-farthings a ton for any greater distance. The towns for which these rates had been made were those accommodated than ra ther by the Cambridge and Lincoln line , by the London and York. To Bawtry they would get along the L o ndon and York. but the witness had not adapted the table to the accommodation afforded by the London and York. The Silkestone coal would have to be conveyed a distance of twenty miles, and the carriage would therefore cost Is. fld. per ton. Bat in this statement he had taken his own experience or assumptions, and not the maximum charge afforded by the Cambridge and Lincoln Bill. He could not say whether the charge of the Sheffield and Wakefield Company was I%d. per ton for any distance short of fifteen miles, and they did not run so great a distance as that upon the Sheffield and Wakefield line. He could not say that the sum of a penny per ton per mile was the maximum charge allowed by the Midlands Bill ; but he did know that that was the highest sum charged against him for that business. The maximum toll of the Swinton and Lincoln Compairt was equal to that on the Midlands Railway. Mr. Walker was about to cross-examine en behalf of the River DOll Company, when Mr. Iluzirsisn questioned his right to appear for the directors in dividually, for they were members of a corporation_which had petitioned on behalf of the line. 7 shills Mr. WALKER said, he was informed that the PerticiPati" b, corporation conferred a freehold right, and enabled the holders vote for the elections for the West Riding. It was decided that as Mr. Diamond and Mr. Samuel Roberts Weil Petitioned only as corporator'', they could not be heard in individual capacity. To Mr. Ilimayszp, on re-examination, the witness stated that Barnsley is in the centre of the most important coal-field in that dis trict, whether considered as to quantity, quality, and cheapness. The Stainboreugh colleries are connected with the Sheffield and Wakefield Railway by tramways. The Silkestone coal is the beat for all house purposes, ands for most purposes equal to the Durham coal. Doncaster is one of the most important places for the exit of this coal to other places. Many of the places on the Cambridge and Lincoln line had, been left out of the list, but other places would be supplied by the Lcndon and York line. As, for instance, although pest of the Lin coln line has been thrown out, Sleaford, the place apparently worst off for the London and York. would still be accommodated,. for It was now supplied by a navigation which turned oft from the river Witham that ran to Lincoln at Tattershall. which is in the loop of the London and York. Whatever might be the right of the Midland Counties Company to charge 1%41. a ton tot carriage under fifty miles, it was practically inoperative, for during the last three years he had only paid a penny per ton, and he knew that Mr. Hudson bad declared that he would beat the canals, he had in several instances done so. Sheuld, however, charge be made the business would be abstracted, and the rail for the conveyance of coal of course uselss. Mr. G. 0. Brown, a coal agent an'i proprietor at Sheffield, state* that 200, 0 00 tons of coal had been carried by Doncaster in the year 1844, and now more is doubtless carried. A great damage 14 suffered by the transference of the coals into the boat& and out again. The cost to him was 3%c1, p e r ton for car riage by canal a n d 3 d. additional for getting out of the boats. while he hal himself paid m ile for 400 tons, last year only a Id. a to n p er 'which included every expense of the trans i t . The wit. nets also spoke to the importance of Rotherham market aa:also tO the quantity of iron which is brought by way of Doncaster to Sheffield. The passenger traffic between these two towns were otowns tl isiSl" very great, there being at least 3,000 enhesgera between t Doncaster l a r l"tg Coaches. There were also ket days. Tere Swinton. There were extra covacehee:aen m ma t r he agricultural district s also large quantities of corn brought onv to the east and north. On cross-examin e by Mr. PAGET, the witness explained the by Earl Fitzwilliam and the public, by diff e rence of charge p s t a ting that there W as a particular branch which no one was allowed to use but himself. Mr. Butterfield, clerk of the Doncaster markets, testified to the extent of the business done at that place, there being about 2,500 head of horned cattle sold there annually, and upwards of 15,000 s heep and pigs, which are chiefly sent towards Sheffield. Great accommodation has lately been a ff or d e d by the Corporation roofing the corn market and other improvements; and it is farther Intended to spend 20,0001. more for that purpose. There are four fairs in the year, and the horses are in such repute, that foreigners fte quently attend them. The water navigation is found to be very in convenient, especially in winter, when there is great delay, and its ease of flood or frost, the corn is frequently sent by land carriage, sad at other seasons when the corn is wanted for immediate consu.Wp. tion. The freight and dyes to Sheffield are as. lad. a quarter in Fr miles. There is a large flax and spinning manufactory at Doncaster. the product of which goes to Barnsley. The &eight and dues to Ro therham, a distance of twelve miles, are 3s. 9(1. a quarter. On cross-examination the witness stated that he did not believe that the trade had gone westward instead of the northwest In conse quence of the water communication. To Mr. War.sta. the witness replied that the River Don Company have also made great improvements both above and below Don caster, and that thrther improvements are also contemplated. but they had refused to complete some of their engagemente. On re-examination by Mr. ilitnxaaD, the witness replied there is now a contletious water communication between Doncaster and Wakefield, by way of Barnsley. The tolls on the road to Sheffield are heavy, and the proposed Lincoln line will give no relief in treneil, as it goes too far away. The Committee here adjourned till to-morrow. mnssEAcs, CAMBRIDGE, AND ST. IVES 3UNCTXON. -—— - The Committee (Earl Grey in the chair) resumed today, at halt'. past two o'clock, when the engineer was called to explain the clime* which took the power of crossing high roads at a level. The rest et the clauses were then gone through, and the report was ordered to be brought up. XITLAINAGE 01' TICE SMDFORD LmV L. The clauses of the Bill for protecting the drainage of the Bedford level were next gone through with some amendments, the chief of which was to allow the London and York Company to pus over a part of the line. The report was ordered to be brought up to-morrow. HOUSE ( I R F O gaMMONS. Iha 9tIECt Committee aipointel to cmida t 44. mi tt Ittio4