The Sun. — London, England, 1812-06-09 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAM.ENT. HOITSE .OF LORD-Iloici3ky , JUNE S. The LORD CHANCELLOR being detained at Carl ton.lionse, did not come down till about four o'clock, when he forthwith took his seat on the Woolsack, and prayers were read. Certain Accounts 'were presented from the Commissioners of Pulilic Records and from the Cusfom-I-louse,' by Mr. Kay ley and Mr. Irving, .and respectively.ordered .. to lie on the 'table.. The Pipe'Clay Exp - ortation Bill was read a third time, and passed : • The House in a Committee went through the Irish Grand Juries Bill, which was reported with. 'Cut any amciia;pu.nt. - . I .Elrl CHOLMONDELEY, as Lord' Steward, re- Ported the Prince Regent's Answer to the last Ad)iress of their LoriShips' (touching the pro 'duction or certain doculnents), importing that di i'ections should be given accordingly. On the motion of the Earl df LIVERPOOL, the Perceval Annuity Bill was read a third time, and passed. FORMATION OF A MINISTRY. Earl STAICHeru said, there vas a subject which ~ tow, above all Others, agitated the public mind,• and respecting which, necessarily, the greatest "flxicty - prevailed : he meant the question of an tq l ;cient Administration for the government of the country. He knew tall •no discussion could re gularly be entered into without there wai a mo tion before the House. He would, therefore,. make o ne , w hi c h w ould tend to introduce that Most imp - Iriant subject, , if ItlY bodywas inclined to discuss it. Ile 'had 'another reason for ,thus coining forward, that of giving their Lordships an °Pportunity of doing a real act of justice—there I %'a , a most unjust and oppressive measure in its op,Tess through that Huse, He alluded. to the InCloSitrc Bill, of which his Lmiship cen 81lred th e l ea diri g p ro vi s ions. TU farther consi deration of this Bill stood for to-morrow, which, 24 the present state of things, could not be a pto day He would, therefore, move, That the "ler reTectin B this Bill for to-morrow be dis -I)argeci, w ith 4 view to adjourning it till this day t LoidViscount BULIELEY expressed his disap- Probation of such a proceeding, and adverted to the great expence the parties were already put to, - in consequence of the postponements which had ta ken place. He * trusted -their Lordships would not agree to discharge the order ; and that to blorrow ample reasons would be adduced in favour of their passing the Bill. Lag STANHOPE explained, and having moved tc) the above effect, the question was put, and th e E e•Noble division motion was negatived without a The Earl of Livtaroor..—" My Lords, before move the question of adjournment, I think it , ' I Y duty to iL-lorin the House, that in consuptence ` ll the Address voted on a former day, by the the. Houseof Parliament, and also to state, in r erenee to a question 'put to me by a Noble 1, 41 te, that his Rdyal IliOntess the Prince Regent Co mmissioner been pleased, this day, to appoint me First i t a nlmissioaer of the Treasury ;. and that his tt ` i i Yal Highness has given directions that the )11 Ler arrangements for his Majesty's Govern eutsball be made without the least unfiecesPary 2; T he Earl of MOIRA- said, that upon the °eel of the last negociation, as he had the hollow' of stating to their Lordships, he undertaken a t the pleasure of his Royal Highness the Prince e gent, and he considered it in the present state 1) f . tia „ e country as a most important duty and trust Lachng up on hi m . He was fully ( aware that in -11 . t °, peri o d, the task- of selecting men of ability and C , eat for the offices of an Adaainistration, could in this country one of -"Much diiffeulty-the unbers w hi c h- were so en d owe d r e n dered the I: i ee easy ; but, ia. the present Mate of things, felt that it behoved him to beware, that in the sho uld of a Klallstry no grounds for suspicion exist, th a t th e r e . was ady . deviation from do se great political principles which were to form t t tie grand basis of'the negociatioa. With a due i ti r 'se of how incumbent this•princlple was upon tri ai rt , he had proceeded to form Cabinet, which 4,, e avoor, unfortunate)y, (lid notsucceed. He e l , iented thjs, for the sake of the country, -be atsuch -a moment as present, he Celt it th e e of peculiar. importance that those who had e 4 ;l- n iallagement of public affairs shenld Itavethe 4 4 ` r ive confidence the nation. In this pro'2e tie had he felt it justice to say,-that in every quarter tad met with the most perfect frankness -and (. b egged leave to rbturn his thauks'to hiS Noble ;A en ds, fin' the candour and kbilties - S Which -they .(herithout exception, -had honoured him -a ith. le av was another ground on which, he begged nave to tolich--hecause, he could nottestify sz et 7 + e lY, that his Royal Highness the Prince Re for',.`; in the powers Which he had vested in him he Purpose,4la.(l evinced-his sincere fit 9, and he had . exerted himself to the utmost, out reservation, and with the'mnst complete 41Positio n t o satisfy_ the wishes of the Public. %110 that cou ld n ow certa i n l y b e - expec t e d, an d he h u . l d feel it a puhlic duty to give every support Power to any body of men to whom the nce; n ee Regent should give his contidence—rhear, g re r P ; that may not be inconsistent with those ‘ e i t a i ` Political principles which he had so often - and asserted in that House, and which should ',PIC rule of his public conduct through rife. the, Duke of NORFOLK observed, the Noble iaf..t, had thought proper to allude to the Address k iti ",te other House, which contemplated the ap tht i ment of a ~more efficient Administration for h our eountry than that of which the Noble Earl a , - avowed himself to be the head. When, 14ver, he had put the question to him on a evening, he said he considered hithself as 1 14 11 ger holding his office, than until such time hi ttl 7 e Prince Regent should appoint an Admini ht L. ,, a tion for his Majesty's Government. This, ty t "tieved, was shortly after a late melancholy tl ie lLt , that suc h an intention was signified. In th!ituati on in which the country now stood, he k eti gght it was necessary the intention of Govern with respect to certain ,great measures, a tic u lo be known and it was of thelastimport *a that G overnm e n t s h ou ld decide, in a certain ' a w ith respect to thole measures. This, - he. wai 3 painful regret, Ana one which. tated the .6ole public mind. One of these mea sures required not a moment's delay with respect to the decikon of Government upon it. He meant that which involved the question of a war with. America, and which, perhaps, the difference of a day may put beyond the power of recall.- hi this view he would put it to the Noble Earl, whether it were meant to rescind the Orders in Council as speedily as convenient, and as events may call for such a measure ? ° The Earl of LIVERPOOL expressed his opinion, that, with respect to the way in which he had re ferred to a proceeding in another place, the. Noble Duke was mistaken. What was the proceeding in another place ? An Address of the Commons, that his Royal ,Highness the Prince Regent would take steps for the formation of - a strong and extended 1 Administration. Undoubtedly, in consequence.of this proceeding, he and ,his colleagues felt it their duty to state to his Royal Highness their desire of being no bar in the way of any arrangement which the Prince. Regent might think neeesSary, under the circumstances of the. country; for the forming . what might be consid&ed as a strong and extend ed, AdmmistratiOn. He trusted their Lordships would do him the justice to feel, that from that moment to the present he was anxious they should be no obstacle to any arrangement which -woOld be satisfactory to the Prince and beneficial to the country. The circumstances that. may have led to the determination of any discussion, were not such as be felt himself at present called upon to. detail; but he certainly should think, - after all that had passed, and under all the circumstances of the case, that he should have shrunk • from the duty which he owed to the Prince Regent and to the country,- if he had declined accepting the office • which his Royal Highness that day was _pleased to confer ,on him. With regard to the question of the actual relations between this ' country and America, thert was some late information of cer tain farther instances, which may be considered as of a hostile character, adopted by the Legis lative Assemblies of that country. But the Noble Duke was certainly mistaken if he supposed from these reports that actual. hostilities -had taken place, at least no information of that. kind had reached GOvernment. Upon the subject of the Orders in Council, the Noble Duke would recol lect there was now an inquiry depending before the House, and which inquiry was for some time in its progress, and now, he believed, near its ter mination. Upon the result of that inquiry, and upon a full view of the body of evidence that shall then be before the House, it would be seen what it was the duty of Government to do, as well with reference to the interests of those Powers who were concerned in the effects of those measures, a's upon the part of this country. The Duke of NORFOLK said a few words in, ex , planation. The Marquis WELLESLEY said, that on the pre sent occasion, he was induced chiefly to rise ; with reference to what be understood was said respect ing some words which had fallen from hum on the day oa which he found it his duty to resign into the hands of his Royal Highness the Prince Ra gent the commission with which he was pleased to honour him, for an object which it was agreed upon all hands to he highly desirable, and with a view of carrying into effect the resolution of the other House of Parliament. On that day, he. • gave his sincere, opinion, that it was preferable rio discussion daring the course of the execution • of the commission should' take place ; and he re mained of this opinion to a,later period of it.' He therefore did not deem it proper to attend on' the day the topic was last referred to. He, now appeared before their Lordships with the same, permission and authority from his Royal Highness the Prince Regent to state on this day, and he was now ready to state-point after point, and even to enter into the,most minute details of ail that pasaed‘during* the execution of that mission. In those details, he had no hesitation' in saying ; that every effort was employed to give it due effect, -, except on the part of a Noble Lordi whom he. I would still call his Friend (looking. earnestly at. • I the Ministerial Bench)*. This, for the special pur pose, he was ready to state He did not mean, however, to ch age • it as a crime, but merely to state the fact, that the only obstacle that occur rel to his progress in forming, an efficient Govern ment, 'had ocettrredaperhops, with no evil iuten tioii, but it had occurred on that side. He thought it necessary, .in his - own vindication, to say thus.; much at least, - and he would ask, before that House I and the country, in justice to himself, whether; on the day he had resigned.his commission into the hands of the ,Prince Regent, he did: not. ina, , ,t ear- I nestly recommend to . his Royal Highness to: open again an explanation with those Noble Lords, in the manner in which a .Noble Earl since opened it ?. The grounds. upon which he had advised the • format ion of a Government. were those which he thought the - situation and circumstances of the country prescribed. Ile. was convinced that no Administration could be adequate that '\vas not founded upon principles consonant to the internal peace of the country; with reference principally to-a speedy consideration, of the claims of the Ro mao Catholics. Next, that none could be effi cient, without an arrangement for carrying on the war in the Peninsula on a scale of adequate vi gour ; and thirdly, on a statement of his opinion, that in the. constituent state of parties, the, adop tion of any one party or its opinions as the policy of Government, or the strength bf any one party as the policy of Government,, was not a 1 principle which could carry the country through H I the. arduous and eventful contest in which it was engaged. The Earl of Haastoway expressed his opinion, that in the present circumstances any detailed dis cussion of the subject should be postponed to a future day. The assertion of the Noble Marquis he felt it incumbent on him, however, immediate ly to notice : he had advanced a charge of a seri ous nature, unaccompanied by a shadow of proof. Their-Lordships certainly should be told in what manner these alleged obstacles, were opposed, and how, and when, and why. It alleged that all the facilities towards forming an Administration came from Noble Lords on the other side, while repul sion was experienced from his (Lord H.) side. It was said that dreadful personal animosities existed. The Noble Marquis should say, whether these words had. been loosely thrown ord a in ;be. course 'of speech, or whether they-.were seriously in t tended. The Noble Marquis was therefore called upon to state the accusation clearly and directly, in order to afford those to whom it may 'apply an opportunity of controverting it. The - Marquis Ii T tLLESLEY, after Slightly ad verting' to the tone which he conceived the Noble Earl to.assume, said that nothing that fell from him (Lord W.) had tended to shew he Was not confident of what he had advanced. He had, however, alleged no evil intention, or any wish on the part of the Noble Lord to thwart the forma— tion of an efficient Government, but simply, as he said, the fact that the only obstacle which had occurred in the negotiation, had occurred oh the part of those Noble Lords. The Noble Earl pos sibly spoke with reference to the explanation given by a Noble Friend (Lord Boringdon) re specting the words " dreadful personal animosi ties," in his absence.. The Noble Earl should recollect, that his Noble Friend said he had no authority from him to make such explanation.— He was then called.upon to say whether he had not used these words incidentally, and therefore as not entitled to that sort of importance which would otherwise attach ? But he was sure .his Nohle-Friend •was much too accurate to have said he used them incidentally: The fact was, be had endeavoured to dissuade their Lordships from any discussion on that day; but at the same time, he now declared most solemnly, that he had used the wordS quite advisedly, and as stating a positive fact; and this he stated to their Lordships upon his word of honour. This, howeVer, the Noble Earl, and other Lords, were pleased to disclaim in distinct terms; and all he could say as to that particular point svas,= according to Parliamentary usage, as such were earnestly disclaimed, that he •must, have been mistaken. Feeling .himself so called upon, however, he would state why be thought that these obstacles proceeded . from that side Of the House, and . why he thought them to be grounded upon personal animosity. ,In proceed ing to the execution of his important commission, he thought an attempt should be first- made to as certain the sentiments, with aview to agreement r.. of the , different individuals, as to -certain great '.leading principles, which, be thought should con stitute the 'basis of an efficient Administration: These points were referred by himself to his Noble Friends near him, and by an \ Honourable Friend to the Noble Lords opposite, For that sincere construction he had put upon the answer be .re ceived front the Noble Lords, he would' refer the House to the document itself, whence their Lord ihips would judge whether he had deserved the rebuke of the Noble Earl. [His Lordship here referred to certain documents published relative. to the transactions in question, and already before ' our readers, illustrative of the inference and con /struction he had put upon the language, and read a few extracts, and concluded with one where the Noble subscribers say, for the reasons stated, that ".they decline becoming Members of any Admini stration to be formed by Lord Wellesley."] After this, where a decided objection was offered to the joining any Administration formed by Lord Wel lesley, he thought further illustration would be unnecessary ; yet he could on the same grotmd, refer to the reply of the Noble Earl, wherein he expressed his wish not to enter into further dis cussion of matters relating to " personal feeling." He meant not to give an opinion as to personal feeling, but be contended, that the fact was ex..- actly as he, had stated it, namely, that he had found obstacles in that quarter, and that these ob stacles appeared to him to arise from personal ani mosity. If the Noble Earl disdained this feeling, God forbid he ShOuld continue to attribute it to him; but after what he had stated, he thought it might appear. to their Lordships he did not deserte the severe rebuke of the Noble Earl'; and if he *ere called upon. to state any where that which may be stated in that House, pe:haps he would be found ready to do it. The Earl of lIARROWBY, in reply; observed up on the seriousness of the charge conveyed by the language used by the Noble Marquis, more espe cially in the preSent state of the country : inas much as that any Noble Lord could be induced, from motives of personal animosity, to do 'that which would tend to keep the country without an .efficient Administration. And even on the grounds stated by the Noble Marquis, he was Still at a loss to learn why a refusal to join in any particular Adininistration should proceed from mo . tives of personal animosity. It should be recol lected,...that the offers were made with the concur rence of every Mtinber of that Cabinet, which, joined to the • part taken by his Noble Friend, shewed he could not be influenced by personal animosity. The Noble Marquis had referred to some details in the correspondence that took place; if he had thought it directly necessary ; for his cwn honour, that such a publication should have, been made—certainly the same publicity should attend every circumstance of the transactions.. A. paper, called," A Statement," had been publish in- some shape or other previous to thetime. when the first proposal was made to the Noble Lord: — This proceeding, his 'Lordship seemed to think, made aanaterial featurein the case, and fully jus tified, nay eVen , called for, the' language held.by ~his Noble Friend, and yet he might not be actu ated by motives of,personal animosity. When a nnblication'was considered, -in which he and all his colleagues were, proclaimed to .the world as totally shqicient in knowledge or capacity for , the formation of any plan whatever When such statements as these could find their - way to the public unknown to any of his NOble Friends, surely it would . not be . without its corresponding effect on the minds and feelings of those who were so characterised. The opinion was such as one was at Jiberty to entertain ; but the manner and the timeoemaking the avowal and the allegations were such as• deserved serious and feeling consideration. Did it not also involve feelings of a very different nature ? could it operate alas- thing like conciliation ? The individual, too so characterized in the publication, he whom they were all proud to state, they considered as the life and soul 9f the Administration. , The time too, and at the very, same moment when, but just re covering from those feelings with which they had followed his hearse ! Under all these circum stances, lie could not think that any part of the conduct or language of his Noble'Friends deserv ed to be characterised as proceeding from perso. iial anifnoSity. These were times in Which all I personal feeling should .)e sa rificed at the shrine . Of public duty, and in sappoi.ting those Mi whom his Royal Hig'lness selected for the ad:- ministration of his Government in this perilous crisis, he felt conscious that he was discharging his duty. - The Marquis WELLESLEY contended for that correctness of the construction he had pit, upon the conduct and language of the Noble Lords this was not the proper period for entering into. a minute analysis of all that had been referred to by the Noble Earl, and which could be done for the purpose of spewing even from bis own mouth, that there was something like diSlike, or distaste at least, if it went not to the full extent of per sonal animosity. He was anxious to defend him.: self from thoseimputations meant to ,be cast upon him, with respect to ine publication of the paper alluded to, by the friends of that very respectable person, whose official character was adverted to in it. If he were capable of countenancing the pub lication of that paper, as the Noble Earl had pre.;. somed, (for he would use that word), but he must at once, in justice to himself, positively deny the fact of his having countenanced it.—The Noble Marquis then stated a variety of circumstaucesre specting the resignation of his official situation as a Minister to his Royal Highness; for the col.. • rectness of which, he appealed to a Noble L i ord present ;_ and proceeded to state, that the publica tion of the paper alluded to, took place without his knowledge or consent : though some of his friends had wished for the publication of it, he always re fused their intreaties, as a paper, of that descrip tion was neverintended by him for publication, and he must protest against any argument being drawn . therefrom of his entertaining any personal animosi ty, unless theNobleßarl meant to insinuate he was a party to its publiclition. The Noble Marquis elo quently eulogised the public and private virtues as well as the official talents of the late lamented Premier ; though he said he did not deem him pos.- sessed of those peculiar, qualifications, or that ex pansion of mind, so necessary for the the sepreine direction of arduous' pubic affairs. It was no proof of his animosity against any man to say that he was unfit for the supreme directions of the af fairs of an empire. If so, he must be deemed hostile to many whose talents he admired, and whose virtues he respected. lie re garded the circumstance of that Minister's death as a great public misfortune, the cif--; cmnstances of which cast the ,lustre of martyr dom around his character. Notwithstanding he had so expressed himself of this great and respect-' able character, he must protest against the idea of, his feeling aught like animosity—if so he must be pupposed to be very unlike the late well known Counsellor Lee, who was never supposed to be in earnest, until he had endeavoured to throw an inkstand at his opponent ! The Noble Marquis then 'made a variety of observations respecting the, correspondence which took place . between a. Noble Earl (Liverpool) particularly, and himself, , relative to the late Ministerial negociations, with a view to justify his conduct thereon, and partieu- . larly with respect to the publication of those do cuments. He . apologized for detaining their Lordships upon pointa comparatively of trivial consideration ; and concluded •by averring, that whatever obstacles he experienced in the negocia tions in question, were entirely from Noble Lords on the other side of the House. The Earl of HARROWBY in explanation, said, the Noble Marquis had relieved hiS mind from a most unpleasant sensation by his exculpating himself from any knowledge or participation in the publication of the paper alliuled to. After a few words in further explanation from the Noble Marquis, Earl Gat was of opinion, that the explaria , tions given by the Noble Marquis ten led to esta blish his own honour and. the correctness of his statement of what be had advanced respecting the Noble Lords opposite, of Which, if he had any doubt, what fell from the Noble Earl (Harrowby) Would have convinced him. An imputation of perr i onal animosity must always be unpleasant, and he was happy that the explanation of his No ble Friend as to the publication of the paper al- laded to had relieved the mind of the Noble Earl • on that score. One point which had fallen from that Noble Earl, only induced him to rise; viz. - in consequence 'of the Address of the other HouSta of Parliament, they thought it necessary to re sign their situations—had they not done so,. the precedent would have been of a most dangerous tendency ; but:. it appeared they thoughtit equals ly their duty to resume those situations, and once more to vest them in the . hands of those with vvhoin the Country was evidently dissatisfied ! He trusted the time would come, when this sub ject could be fully and adequately discussed, a time when be could be enabled fully to explain the, grounds of his conduct. He would then re fer to those attempts which had been made to in troduce himself and his :Noble Friends into c. • flee, upon terms amounting to a sacrifice of those . principle• on which they had always acted. He would then state the grounds of theirjustifieation for not interfering in the Government at 41, un lessthey *were permitted to undertake it, by car rying into elfect those measures which they had pledged themselves to the public to adopt. .Ills public life *as before the country, and if he was called to its service, consistently with those prin ciples, he would zealously endeavour to promote its best interests, but upon no other terms. He fully felt for the noble and patriotic motives by which a Noble Earl was actuated, but he seemed not aware of that secret management, which per= . vaded the whole of those transactions, and which alone, Ite . believed; prevented ere now the forma tion of such a Government as the country requir , ed and expected. The Earl.of MotaA saitls that an allusidn which fell from his Noble Friend seemed to bear upon him, and as such he thought called for explanation: A general statement of confidence in his honour wai not sufficient; nor did he desire a compliment to his heart at the expence of his understanding. He would not have undertaken the negociation at all, hitt(' there been the least partiCle of restriction, on the authority with which he had been vested, and he would appeal to their Lordships, if from their knowledge of the degree of confidence With whichhe was - honoured by the Illustrious Per. son who now presided. over the State, they