The Sun. — London, England, 1837-05-06 00:00:00

t o him by the abandonment in the present measure of the re solution on which it was originally founded. But that resolu tion (though he felt it was not necessary to enter into that sub• ject now) he (Viscount Melbourne) begged to say was net abandoned in substance, and its principle was fully maintained and supported. He said, then, what hope had they, with re spect to the Bill, if they should concede to the propositienk for which the Noble Duke pressed Ott this occasion ? With re spect to the Bill for making a legal provision for the poor in Ireland, that Bill was one of the greatest impor tance—perhaps of the greatest importance of any measure that ever was brought before Parliament. It was admitted to he a Bill surrounded with great difficulties, and their Lordships knew the intense anxiety which was felt on the subject , in this country and in Ireland ; but he could not concur in the opinion which had been expressed by a Noble Earl opposite, and by a Noble and Learned Friend near him. They had been pressed on all sides to bring forward that measure. He denied that they were under any moral compulsion to pass the Irish Poor. law Bill. He trusted that it would be found practicable to frame an efficient measure for the relief of the poor in Ireland ; but if it should appear that the proposed measure was not suit able to the country for which it was intended, or if it shou'el still further appear that it was calculated to aggravate the evi!s which it was intended to diminish, they were not in such a situ ation as would prevent them from postponing the measure, and in the propriety of such a postponement, under such circuin stances, he was persuaded the country would fully acquiesce. At the same time he repeated his anxious hope and his confi dence that the Bill at present under consideration in the House of Commons would be found to be a practicable measure, and completely adequate to the purpose for which it hail been framed. But it certainly did not appear to him to be wise or prudeie on the part of their Lordships—it did not appear to him the 1 they would be doing tbeir duty as a House of Parliament, to postpone a measure the advantages of which were certain, and which was required by the country, in order to wait fur another measure, on the exact nature and on the efficacy of which there must of necessity hang a certain degree of ambi guity and doubt. The Noble Duke said that the Bill for the relief of the poor in Ireland would afford a criterior for jut's:- jars, the property of the middle and lower classes, and of thereby fixing the rate in the Municipal Bill. But nothing could be mole easy than in the Bill under their Lordships' consideration Cr acid the qualification which the Poor-law Bill might contain. Nothing would be more advantageous than the facilities to se cure a proper qualification which would he afforded, should thet Bill be sent to them in a mature and perfect state. As to the Noble Duke's proposition, he (Lord Melbourne) could see ao reason whatever for acceding. The subject had been consi dered in two Sessions of Parliament, and their Lordships were perfect masters of it. The Noble Duke said that it sans their duty to protect the Church of England established in Ireland from injury ; and contended that the proposed corpe rations would be injurious to that Church. Thet was begg,nste the question. The Noble Duke had not shown a single point in which the new Corporations could be injwious to the Chur( of England established ix Ireland, except as they might affect the constitution of the House of Commons, which was to make laws for Ireland. The course which the Noble Duke called upon their Lordships to pursue upon the present occasion was entirely novel. They ought always to be cautious of adopting a new course ; especially with reference to the proceedings ef Parliament. He begged also to suggest to their Lordships the expediency of considering what might be the effect of such a course Upon the feelings and conduct of the other House of Parliament. —(Hear, hear, hear.) He begged to suggest to them that the consequence of adopting such a course might be to create a struggle and contest between the tiro [louses.— ( Hear.) If their Lordships deferred a measure which wes sent up to them by the other House of Parliament, until they saw what that House did with other measures that were before them, the other House of Parliament might deft r measures until they saw how their Lordships might think proper to deal with other measures before them.—( Hear- ) And he begged to remind their Lordship that such a post ponement on the part of the other House of Parliament might be atteneed eith much more awkward circumstaeces than tiny postponement on the part of their Lordships.--( Hear, hear. bear.) Ile would not press that point any further, but as he say no reason for postponing the consideration of the BiA Isefore their Lordships, and es he saw no natural connec tion between that Bill and the other Bills which were in progress in the other House of Parliament, Ito should most diatinctly say " Not content" to the N epic Dslre's motion. The Duke of WELLINGTON, in explanation, observed that thohgh he objected to much of the principle of she Irish Municipal Corporation Bill, lie was not adverse to the es. teldis'ewent, under certain circumstances, of local jurisdictioes iu Leland. Lord FITZGEHALD and VESEY said that he was lir as:Ming/to trespass upon their Lordships' attention ; but cola. seierieg the part which he lied felt it to be his duty to take on this subject iii the last Session, when he had submitted to their Lordships certain resolutions which e.-ere agreed to, he felt that he in seine degree owed it to himself—that he owed it t o ilia interests of that country with vshieli his Noble Friend am! himself were so intimately connected—that he even owed it to their Leedshipa, to state the grounds on which he supported the Noble Duke'ssmotion. If the proposition involved in tie , Nlae;eipal Bid were now for the first time offered to the adoption of their Lordships—if they could be apeiin placed iii the exact situation in which they were last Session, to deal widi a Bill which established certain Cotperations it I eland, iu lieu of Corporations to be abolished, he should not brick from t ecommending to their Lordship's the course widch he had recommended on' that occasion.- But thrt des net the case. When he looked at the purpose for whirl! the Corporations in Ireland had been origiaally eatetn end the oli;ect which thet.,r! Corporations to maintain, with his Nol,ic Friel:J. lit theh were inteade,l far die support dad nieintenaece or Pro zest eit loos ie Ireland. At lean, it cull net be t ta t: w e s the c:ise with respeet to t b ' great rnajw . it.. a the ut eiitahli.,lied in the reign of Jr. roes I. Coniiilerin o that those Cerperadons in Iselend were of an eaclu , dve cha racter, and coesideriag that that 17 , 1 e nut drsiraYe re• ven: eireurnsta.tees, he unheaitatin,gly ceneerred ht the atoll lion of tho-e Corperationa. The Nohle Viscount, in the laa. srssion, did not fatted the measure of abolition on any impute', delinquency on the part of the Corporations. What tiejits'* Im:int:tined was, that their cxelusive . charaeter operated riortal Oil the administration of justice ie Ireland. as well a , in other rnspecs - Ile ( Lord Fitze;crald anti Vescy) e9ii curred with the N,ble Viscount in the exnedieney of ebolish ing these Coseerations ; and r.heit their Lordships rr.fused tr g o further, dien they - , - ,:ftised tel confirm excin , ire chn. r ester of the Cerporations which it was proposed to crew,: in the stead of the aholished Corporations. that refu.sal toureled on the sante reason as the abulition—tiarne!Y the (hanger of giving- predoitiinant power to any party Idrind. Nene of their Lordships discussed at 'any lstgzi tire details of the Bill ef last Sesaion. Now, !alone he viii dented the course which he had taken lest Cession, if le acluieseed in a proposition so diffsrent from that ceurse n• tit,: present motion of his Nolth . woeld anawe; _not that he did not still think that the proceedirdrs 3 - ears had not produce'l an anomalous state of society is I se l aa d, which they ceuld hardly hope is their days entirely e get rid of —n that he did not still think that the cou-se is tile; he recommended to their Lordships last year was the besi course that could b? pursued for securing the just administra. thin e f the law, and public tranquillity, ih Ireland, but that le s)tv no ground for hoping ilea the measure would be accepts'' . by the other !louse of Parliament, which their Lordshios its ttieught it right to offer. That being the (ewe, he thoUg'w is would be merely delusive, and that it would excite uejuat ex• pectatiocs, if he were to repeat his crews° of last Session. I could not be expected, after the course which had been taloan by the House of Commons, after the elaborate reasons which; toat House bad given for taking that course, but that, if their Lordships reiterated their proposition, agreed to by a large majority last year, so far from coaciliating, it would have the effect of widening the breach between the two Houses, at, _occurrence which it was their Lordships' duty, not to the constitution alone, but to their o.vn constitutional indepen (fence, to take every proper means of averting. Such was his chief and influential motive for concurring in his Noble Friend's proposition; and on no other ground should lie think himself justified in abandoning the course of last Session. He could assure the Noble Viscount that he shared in no councils which had for their object the defeat of the Bill or the destruc tion of its main objects ; for he certainly did find, in the man ner in which the deliberations of that House last Session had been received in Ireland, an additional and urgent reason for inducing them, if they could do so consistently with their duty, for departing from their course of last year, and, for adopting another course, which was likely to lac better received. He entirely disclaimed for himself, and for his Noble Friends around him, entertaining any opinion that the people of Ire land were unworthy to govern themselves. And so far was he in the last Session from placing his opposition to the Bill on the ground of the danger of Catholic ascendancy in Ireland, he well remembered, and their Lordships, perhaps, remem bered, that while he admitted the existence of that danger, he contended that it must be looked boldly in the face, and that lie should object to making the Corporations of Ireland of an exclusive character, whether Orange or Catholic. His ob • jection to the Bill was, that it rendered the principle of ex clusion perpetual. On these grounds, he thought the course now proposed perfectly justifiable, without attri buting to it any of the motives which it had pleased the Noble Viscount to suspect. The reasons assigned by the Ilouse of Commons rendered it imperative on their Lord ships to endeavour to adopt a proceeding which might prevent a further separation on the subject between the two Houses. If their Lordships honestly deprecated that further separation, they could not reiterate the course of last year. What then remained for them to do? The Noble Viscount said " Adopt the Bill." Now, their Lordships' objection to do so was not founded on an objection to the principle of establishing Corpo rations in Ireland. It would be no honest concession on the part of their Lordships if they were not prepared to admit the expediency of establishing Corporations in Ireland. But they wished to be careful as to the mode in which the principle of establishing Corporations in Ireland was to be carried into ef fact. The Noble Viscount said that the proceeding proposed by his Noble Friend was novel, and that its adoption might be attended with injurious consequences in future. He would re mind the Noble Viscount of a proceeding of a similar nature, not, it was true, where one House of Parliament waited for the proceedings of the other; but still it was similar. When the Ca ttaelic Relief Bill was conceded, neither House would proceed with it unless it proceeded pari passu with a Bill for putting down the Catholic Association ; this showed that it was not new for the Legislature or a House of Assembly to await for the accomplishment of one measure on which another measure depended. Now he did not understand the Noble Duke to say that they were to wait for the Bills coming up from the Commons—the Noble Duke confined himself to this, that Any s R received from the Crown at the commencement of the O—N \ a communication that certain measures were to be ' d iv the Government, it was a ground for waiting un tirc4-41iyasures were actually produced. The Noble Vis t. t. ."? ; 7; ► =l - 2,: Count l OW what connection there was between the Bills t , "; ;41,) ' suppoGed to be before the House of Commons, that had been represented as being under the consideration of the Govern ment, and which occupied the anxious wish of his Majesty. These Bills were the Irish Tithe Bill and a Bill for the relief of the poor of Ireland. The Noble Viscount said there Was no connection between the Irish Tithe Bill and the Municipal. Bill, but he thought he could show that there was, because it might place the Church of Ireland in the power of a great predominant party in the State. But who was it th"at had unsettled the state of the Irish Church ? Why Parliament had unsettled it. The Church was united with that of England by the Act of Union ; the Act of Union settled that Church. The Catholic Relief Bill also settled it ; it was passed with the view of giving security to that Church. But, he repeated Parliament had unsettled the Irish Church by taking so large a portion of property away from that Church ; at the same time, he adinitted the necessity which existed for some such proceeding. He would' beg to ask whether the same neces sity did not call upon their Lordships to look with carefulness and anxiety to the settlement of that question ? Was it too much to say that a measure which went to give larg e powers to a predominant party in Ireland, who declared that the al teration of the present Church Establishment was their ob ject—that this subject was not connected with it, if they ad mitted that predominant party into power? The next ques tion with which the Noble Duke coupled his proposition was, that a Bill had been introduced into the House of Commons for the purpose of affording relief to the Irish poor. He did not mean to contend that that Bill was so intimately connected with this question of the Church as the Tithe Bill ; but he did himself contend that no Bill could well be deemed as an auxiliary to municipal government as that with reference to the Irish poor ; although he did not say their Lordships were to postpone the consideration of the Municipal Bill until the Bill for the relief of the poor should come up from the other House. The House, however, would bear in its recollection the great question of qualification was involved. He would beg to ask the Noble Viscount whether the Poor-law Bill, by giving a rating for the relief of the poor, would not offer to the Le gislature a fair test of qualification for a better constituency, and whether it would not be right to know what that qualifica tion would be ? The very principle of the Bill on the table was qualification ; and could they so far alter that principle as to make the qualification safe ? The state of the Irish Church was such as prevented the House from legislating on other subjects not immediately connected with it. Who that had looked to the state of Ireland could be blind to the anomalies of the situation of that country, and the danger which re sulted from them ? He knew the danger in which an esta blished church was, where its tenets were not held ,by the majority of the people, and not in connection with the state. The unjust principle of appropriation had increased the danger of the Irish Church, and had also prevented le gislation on other subjects. If those questions were brought forward—if the Church of Ireland was placed on a more stable ground—if the payment of tithe was removed from the occupying tenant, and thus prevent the collisions which took place between the Ministers of the Church and - the popula tion, he did not despair of Ireland rising out of its present difficulties. Under such circumstances, he should tact despair of seeing a general system of education accepted as between the now members of hostile churches. If the proposition übmitted by the Noble Duke should induce the House to await the accomplishment of the measures now in progress, without reference to the debates in another place, or interfer ing in respect of deliberations which would be unfitting and dangerous in its results, he did think it might be anticipated there would not be an obstinate adherence on the part of their Lordships in reference to the settlement of this question. If the questions he referred to were settled, then their Lordships might come to the consideration of the measure for the estab lishment of Municipal Corporations in Ireland; and at no distant day he should he prepared to vote for a very different proceeding from that adopted by their Lordships on the last year.—( Cheers.) The Earl of WICKLOW said he had come down to the House, however disagreeable it might be to him, to differ with those Noble Lords with whom he usually agreed, to give a decided vote against a proposition, if it had been submitted, similar to that of last year—namely, for the abolition of the existin g corporations in Ireland. But the proposition of the Noble Duke was of a very different nature—it narrowed the case so much, that it was not necessary for him (Lord low) on the present occasion to enter - into the great question involved in the measure then under discussion. The proposi tion of the Noble Duke was one of everyday occurrence, not perhaps on the exact grounds laid down by the Noble Duke, but the postponement of the consideration of measures for a few days, or even weeks, frequently took place for their Lord ships' own convenience. He could see no danger in the pro position, because time could be no apprehension that the de lay could lead more to the loss of the measure than if it was now under consideration. He was sure the Noble Duke would not do tint indirectly which he would not do directly—he was far too candid , to propose this delay with a view to the loss of the measure ; but if such was not the object of the Noble Duke, which he was sure it was not, he would rive his decided opposition to the motion which the Noble Duke had submitted. The Noble Viscount enid that the proposition was wholly un precedented ; hut his Noble Friend who had just sat down had shown that such was not the case.—( Hear, hear, hear. ) Flu could also cite . another case ; he referred to the Roman Catholic Relief Bill. When that measure was introduced into their Ler-if:hips' House it was considered necessary to he accompanied by another measure, which of necessity must on einate it, the other House of Parliament, going as it did to affect the privileges of that House, but the Noble Duke de clared ho would not go on a single stage wish the Catholic Re form Bill, until the measure to which he referred come tip from the House of Commons: lie alluded to the measure for the ale. lition of the 40s. fieeelaPers is Ireland. He considered this in answer to the statemert of the Noble Duke that there ues no precedent for the present course of proceeding?. 4t the same time he condi:ly admitted, elide he advocated the adoption f)r the proposition of the Noble Duke, that he was not induced to do so ny the reesens which the Noble Delve had given. Ile did not sea tiny danger as likely to arise to the Esteblished Church from the passing of this Bill, end therefore was not eenvineed of the absolute necessity that the Tithe 13.11 should come under consideration in consequence of such apprehended danger. Though he did not last year take any part in the diseu;sions on the measure then propesed, yet he had eletet,S Leon anxious for the success of the Municipal Corporation Bill Ireland, which he could not have been conscientiously. if he had considered that it "vas I..aught with danger to the Estab lished Church On the contrary, he thought the passing of the Bill would rathcr teed 'o tLe security of that Clu-ch.— ( evil from the NtH , t e rial • benches.) He spoke of the principle of the proposition Was, not of granting Corporations to Ireland, because they had existed for centu ries, and he must say that Noble Lords fell into a great error in representing this Bill as having for its object tot , rant new instinitioes to Ireland. Zany cf them had exi,ted siece the reign of Henry the Second. Some of them. no doubt, were of more recent origin, particularly in north of Ireland, eed he was free to admit that they e c: c:. c I for ;nest improper purposes,—( Hear.) The qucs_ tuni was, whether they were to extend to Ireland the same prineiple that had been adopted for Er,_,e - land and Scotland. There were ports of the measure of which he disapproved, but ae wit friendly to the prinriple, and could not see any dangcr likely to arise to the Established Church from its adoption : yet he could not be blind to the fact, that a great portion of the people of this country, and many of the most influential Members of the [louses of Parliament, did see that danger. It was also well known that-the same opinion was entertained by many Noble Lords in that House, who, in common with a large minority of the other Ilsuse of Parliament, were op posed to the Bill in its present shape. He would therefore say, if the Noble Viscount was desirous of passing the measure, and he sincerely believed he was, considering it as one calculated to benefit ',eland, that he ought to consider it his duty to adopt that course which was most likely to carry that object into effect. The Noble Duke had frankly stated that he was not opposed to the granting of Corporations, but that he was • opposed to some of the details. In the principle, however, of granting Corporations to Ireland, the Noble Duke had stated that he was disposed to concur.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Now, under such circumstances, would the Noble Viscount de cline the concession asked for by the Noble Duke ? If anything Could produce the effect which the Noble Viscount deplored, ought he not to take the means most likely to pre vent it ?—(Cheers.) It' the Government admitted the honesty of the intentions of the Noble Lords on his (the Opposition) side of the House, then it was impossible that any feeling could be excited against them in any quarter whatever. With regard to the arguments of his Noble Friend who had last ad dressed the House, they could be refuted ; but he would not trouble their Lordships, in consequence of the narrow bounds within which the question now stood, by entering generally into the subject. He did believe that nothing would be more likely to excite feelings friendly to the Constitution of the country in the minds of those to whom his Noble Friend had alluded, than by being made participators in its blessings. For the reasons he had stated, though he approved of the prin ciple of the measure, he should vote for the proposition of the Noble Duke; at the same time he admitted that there were many parts of the Bill which were objectionable, still he sup ported the integrity of its principle, wishing to see the details amended, propositions to which effect he should be prepared to submit when it arrived in Committee. He would, however, candidly confess that he would rather assent to the adoption of the Bill as it stood, than adopt such propositions u had been agreed to by their Lordships last year. He would sit down, humbly advising the. Noble Viscount, not as a political enemy, but as a political friend, to accede to the proposition of the Noble Duke. The Marquis of LAN SD OWNE said, before he stated his opinions on the question before their Lordships, he wished to express the great satisfaction he felt with what he hail heard from the Noble Earl, and, he would add, the satisfaction with which he had heard the Noble Baron who preceded him, and still more to the spirit of the remarks which he made in com menting on the speech of the Noble Duke—not, he would say, with a view to remove the objections to the course pro posed by the Noble Duke, but to remove the objections to the arguments which had induced the Noble Duke to adopt the plan which he had proposed. The Noble Baron and the Noble Duke last Session, he understood, had in an unqualified sense made a declaration of hostility to the principles of the Bill. The Noble Duke had, however, explained that his hostility consisted net in objections to the principle, but to certain great details. He understood the Noble Duke and the Noble Baron to give without qualification their consent to the prin ciple of the Bill. He did not advert to the details, because these were matters of minor importance, but to what he called the invaluable principle of the Bill ; and he trusted, after what had passed that night, that the Noble Duke would now give his adhesion to the measure. He hoped before the debate should close to be distinctly informed what was the real objection which certain Noble Lords had to a Bill, the object of which was good local government carried on by ef fective and respectable constituted bodies. That was the great principle of the Bill—that was the principle which was rejected last year—rejected, lie considered, very injudiciously, and the object and intention of which were to allow the people of Ireland the administration of their own local affairs, and place then on the same footing with other subjects in the United Kingdom. If that were the intention of the Noble Duke, he must say it gave him unbounded satisfaction. If the principle were really admitted, and if the Noble Duke showed c disposition to sec it usefully applied, he confessed his satis faction was greatly diminished when the Noble Duke and the Noble Baron declined to go on with the plan, and take the ne cessary steps for carrying it into effect. He did not blame the NoLle Duke and the Noble Baron for not taking the Bill as it stood ; but what he'blamed them for was for not going into Committee to consider the details, with a view to confer on the people of Ireland those inestimable privileges which were en joyed by the inhabitants of Great Britain. He wished to call the attention of their Lordships to the extraordinary novelty of the course pursued on the present occasion. A Noble Lord had stated a case to prove that there was no novelty in the case, though he confessed the argument of the Noble Lord had failed to convince him, because the case stated had not the remotest analogy to the proposition of the Noble Duke. The case quoted was that which happened when the Bill for emancipating the Catholics was introduced, and when another Bill was to accompany it, namely, a Bill for disfranchising the forty-shilling freeholders. Now that was proposed by the same Government and at the same time. Was that a ques tion between the two Houses of Parliament, or one in which one House sought to controul the decision of the other House till that Bill was passed? The cases were totally different — the Bills were introduced by the Government in that House— they were to go on pari passu, and their influence with Par liament was such as to enable them to carry both measures as one, or as directly bearing on one another. But did that measure bear on the proposition of the Noble Duke? It certainly did not. But he had argument still stronger, and on that point he would appeal to the Noble Duke, and he was glad that on the occasion he had the benefit not only of the Noble Duke's spoken, but the benefit of his recorded, opinion. The present Session was the first in which the three great measures to which the Noble Duke alluded had been placed in juxtaposition. Last Session, when the Noble Duke moved an amendment to the Address in an swer to the King's speech, the Noble Duke did not intimate that there was the slightest connection between the three mea sures alluded to in the speech—namely, municipal Corpora tion Reform for Ireland, the tithe question, and the introduc tion of Poor-laws into Ireland. After the address had been moved the Noble Duke, exercising that influence belonging to the high authority and station to which he was so well entitled, proposed to alter, and he was successful in doing so, part of the words, and substitute other words on the subject in ques tion. And what were the words inserted in the amended Ad- dress ? His Majesty in his Speech from the Throne adverted to the expediency of inquiring into the state of the Municipal Corporations of Ireland, and in the Address the Noble Duke proposed to add the fiillewing sentence :—Lb Being in pos session of the Report of the Commission appointed to in quire into the state of the Munjcipat Corporations in Ire land, we will proceed, without delay, to the consideration of any defects and evils which may have been shown to exist in those institutions, for the purpose of applying such remedies as may obviate just causes of complaint, and insure the impartial administration of justice." Did that amendment refer to anj other Bills ? Did it advert to the administration of justice, or to any other of the topics now considered by Noble Lords opposite so intimately con nected with the subject under discussion ? Not in the least. Now, what was the cause alleged for the proposed course of proceeding? When Noble Lords talked of their intention to delay the consideration of the Bill for a month, he did not mean their object was to defeat the measure by delay, fo r he was bound to take the assurances made that night, but when they talked of delay, and said time was of little conse quence, lie would able Noble Lords to call to mind whet they had said of the gross corruption and the incalculable mis chief which attended these institutions in Ireland, and then ask if thej were prepared, admitting all that confusion and all that corruption, to hang the present measure on two others never connected with it before, and to one of.which there were, on the pet of some, insuperable objections ? But the real cause of the objection to the Municipal Biil was said to be the way in which it would affect the safety and permanency of the Established Church. He admitted that there had arisen sonic connection between these two sub jects; but his cause of apprehension was directly the contrary of that entertained by the Noble Duke, because if there was danger to the solidity of the Established Church in Ireland, he thought the very mode kroposed, instead of ditriiiiishing that danger, :could greatly increase it, and that the hestility to that Church would become more active than ever if the Church was connected with the refusal to the people of Ireland to ma nage their own concerns. He believed the greatest danger was to 'be apprehended on that account, and he hoped and wished that the Noble Duke had abstained from mixing them up together. The Church of Ireland, all knew, was is an auomalous condition ; and if they were to tell the people of Ireland that on account of. their Church they were to be de barred of their privileges—that they were to be deprived of the rights and privileges enjoyed by Englishmen—Of the Mu nicipal rights, too, which they had long enjoyed before—did, Noble Lords think that would increase the security of the Church ? He wished Noble Lords would descend to par ticulars and point out how the present Bill would endanger the Church ? for notwithstanding discussion year after yeai-- alter dit.cwsions in that House and in the other House, no one had pointed out an act of hostility, or shown boor the danger was to arise.—(, Hear, hear.) If the Municipal Bill was granted, and the• people of Ireland were placed. on the same tooting pith the people of England, they mi l dit not exercise those privileges in the best way for them selves, or exert themselves as much in managing the town concerns ; but it did net follow from that, because they did not regulate the municipal afftirs in the best way, they were to uirect their batteries charged with the ammunition with which that Bill would supply them against the sacred fabric of the Church. Ile contended that no such power would be g von to them by the passing of the present measure. But Noble Lords said though the power ought not to be given, still the exercise of municipal rights would give rise to a spirit of restlessness which might ho directed against the Church, or any of the Protestant institutions of the country, and that it was therefore the daty of the Legis lature to deprive them of the power of inflicting airy net of hostility. He saw no such danger. The Noble Duke and others spoke as if the Bill would give exclusive rights to the Roman Catholics, or something amounting to that. Now he contended that they were not justified in bringing such a charge against a whole population. The Noble Baron could not say that the people of Ireland would abuse these privileged—he (Lord Lansdowne) would not say they would -abuse them, and he was not therefore prepared to prefer a Bill of Indictment against a whole population, and say that they would act in opposition to their Own interests and the proper management of their own con cerns. He could not fur a moment conceive that a whole population would act so inconsistently and so absurdly ; and experience confismed his arguments and views on the sub ject. He had some anxiety to ascertain the grounds on which ' Noble Lords came to such a conclasion, and he had in conse quence exerted himself to find out how the affairs in certain towns in Ireland were conducted under the management of die inhabitants, and he found that so far from there being any reason for casting such imputations on the people of Ireland; they were more free from blame on dolt head than he could pos sibly have expected. He would give a few instances; and he trusted Noble Lords more intimately acquainted with the country than he was would correct hint if wrong. He would take four towns, more completely Catholic than any others, and where the Catholics predominated, in order to show how they managed their municipal affairs. He would take Wex ford, Cork, Limerick, and most Catholic Galway. He se lected these towns because the peculiar bodies which ma naged their affairs were analagous to those which would be cratedceted by the Btll under their Lordships' consideration. He would begin with Wexford. From accidental circumstances the old Corporation, which had long enjoyed the ascendancy, had been deprived of their exclusive privileges and forced to admit Catholics into the Corporate body. That had taken place some ten years ago, and while the Roman Catholics predominated in the town, and could have returned all the Members of Council of that creed, out of the mayors who had been elected since the change, only three had been Ro man Catholics. That certainly was a prhof that even if the majority of the inhabitants were Catholics, they would not elect Catholics to the most important situations in the ,towns and boroughs. Noble Lords probably were aware that by an Act passed some years ago, the new town of Limerick had the power of electing commissioners for paving, lighting, and watching the town. A large portion of these commissioners were generally Protestants, and on a late occasion a Roman Catholic banker of great respectability was proposed as a can didate, but he was not elected; but a Mr. Watson, a Protes tant gentleman, was preferred to the Roman Catholic. He would quote a similar instance as regarded Cork. In the Chamber of Comnteke in that town there were a great many not only Protestants, but Protestant dissenters. He would come next to Galway, and though he was not much ac quainted with that town, he believed there were more Catho lics in that town than in any town in Ireland of the same po pulation. By the 9th of Geo. IV. twenty-one commissioners were elected by the householders for managing the affairs of the town ; and it was rather singular that among the first acts of the elective body—that body which . the Noble Duke seemed to consider so hostile to the Church Esta blishment—was the election not only of a Tory, or a Conser vative, as some preferred the term, but a Protestant clergy man as one of the Commissioners.—( Hear.) In a few months after the death of a Roman Catholic Commissioner his place was filled by Mr. Mansell, a respectable Protestant clergyman. That proved that so far from the Church exciting hostility in the minds of the people of Galway, Roman Catholics of that town elected a member and a clergyman of that Church to administer and assist in managing their local affairs. What reason, then, was there for supposing that the .people would abuse the trust, and apply the power which they would acquire by the Bill in battering down the Church ? He said, then, that their Lordships ought to pause before they refused a great act of justice to a people who had so conducted themselves. It was said they ought to take a large and general view of the question, and wait till they saw what the measures were which had been' introduced into the other House. If they took a lake view, and wished to go on successfully and peaceably in their career of legislation, he begged of them to consider how the Roman Catholics had been excluded by the old system : he begged them to consider the condition of the Roman Catho-, lies • he begged them to consider their pride and their strength; lie begged them to consider their present position and their ancient rights; but, above all, he begged, their Lordships to consider their former measures, in order to see what advan tages they had gained by delay. He would ask what they had done in 1790 and 1791, and with what grace-they yielded and gave up to the Catholics what they had long denied them. He asked them to look back at the exclusive system which had prevailed almost since the Reformation—the system which excluded Catholics from the army and navy—,and consider with what grace they came to that !louse and admitted their Roman Catholic fellow-citizens to enter the two services, after .hey had declared by their votes in'that House and elsewhere :heir firm decision and their determination to keep them out. And they were kept out till justice and good policy overcame all obstacles. He therefore asked what advantage there was in delay, and why their Lordships connected t 7 .vo measures which were entirely distinct ? He was certain that if the Legislature passed the measure without any conditions it would be more satisfactory to the people; and if they per formed that act of justice—he would not calf it generosity—in the proper time, and grant those privileges to which the Irish people were entitled, they would be saved from much of the difficulty in which the delay now involved the country. If there were any defects, they could be corrected in Committee. He therefore trusted his Noble Friend would persevere in pressing his motion for going into Committee, not with a view of carrying the measure in its present exact form, but with a view to do away with the exclusion of Roman Catholics, and adopt the principles of justice and safety which no honest man could impede, and which could alone lead to a permanent set tlement of the question.—( Hear.) The Earl of RIPON, in allusion to an observation directed to him, said he certainly last year had confined his support of the second reading of the Bill to the extinction of the existing Corporations, but in so doing he never meant anything so im proper or absurd as that the Irish were not capable of managing their own concerns. His objection to the measure arose chiefly from the danger which he apprehended to the Established Church. With regard to the functions which the Bill would confer on the inhabitants of the towns, he must say that by the 9th of Geo. IV. they might perform all these functions, and founded, too, on the principle of representation. He did not see why they might not manage their concerns, though the honour might be less if they did not bear the name of Corpo rations. He concurred in the remarks made by Noble Lords, that the feelings of the Protestant people of Ireland on that subject had been much exaggerated ; but he did not think that could be justly charged on the individuals who indulged in these feelings. The Protestants believed that they would be pressed and weighed down, that they would be deprived of their power by their avowed enemies, and that the measure was brought forward for the purpose of completing their degrada tion. He would not say that they did not over-rate their dan ger, but that was to be attributed not to what was said by the Government, but by others who were determined, as they be lieved, to bring them to a miserable, degraded condition. The Noble Marquis said he could see no connection be tween these Corporations and the danger to the Church. tic wished to God he could see the question in the same light. While making that statement he wished to do justice to both parties, but to proceed with the utmost caution and prudence. The Noble Earl, after entering into some details respecting the town of Limerick, and the mode in which the 9th George IV. operated, then concluded by intimating his intention to vote with the Noble Duke. . _ Lord BROUGH AM said he took a very different view of the tendency of the measure from that taken by the Noble Duke, and was thereftire prepared to vote for the motion of his Noble Friend ( Lord Melbourne.) He began now to under stand the reason why the Noble Duke had thlclined answering his question the other night about the nature of his amendment. On that occasion he asked the Noble Duke if he could give the amendments which he meant to propose, in order that they might be printed; and the Noble Duke then gave him an answer intimating that he had not at the time made up his mind as to the course which he meant to pursue, or, at all events, that he had not framed his amendments ; but from the tone of the Noble Duke on that occasion he certainly was not led to anticipate the proposal for a delay of five weeks which the Noble Duke now made. If delay were called for on this measure, he really thought it would have been more proper at some of the earlier stages of the Bill than at pre sent. Instead of agreeing to the second reading of the Bill, the more obvious course would have been to have moved the _ . postponement of the second reading to the 9th of June. But the question after all now was, what was the meaning for this proposal for delay ? He must say that he could not altogether participate in the satisfaction which his Noble Friend the Pre sident of the Council had said that he experienced in hearing the speeches of the Noble Duke opposite, and of the Noble Earl opposite, and of the Noble Baron opposite, who had com mented on the speech of the Noble Duke ; unless, indeed, they were to understand that in this case the author had adopted the interpretation of the commentator, and were pre pared to say, " I did not mean what I said, but what my commentator has said for me."—( A laugh.) Unless this seas clearly understood, the observations of the commentator must be taken as his own, and not those of his author; and then he ( Lord Brougham) would ask, had the Noble Duke throughout the whole of his speech, from the be ginning to the close of it, held out anything in the shape or nature of an intimation of his intention, he would not say of supporting, but of not opposing this Bill ; or any ground upon which to rest a supposition that the Noble Duke, and the Noble Lord who acted with him, were not as hostile as they ever were to the fundamental principle of this Bill ?—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Duke said that the principle of local go vernment, by means of local corporations, was the sum and substance of this measure, and that all the rest was only matter of detail. The qualification principle was certainly a matter of rather larger detail than the others, but still, in the Noble Duke's estimation, it had nothing to do with the principle of the Bili. Now, if all this were true, it appeared to him that if Noble Lords had taken up higher ground, and had insisted upon perpetuating the present Corporations, they would have equally adopted what the 'Noble Duke called the principle of this 'measure—barring only the feature of qualification.— ( Hear.) The fact was, there was local government in Ire land already, perhaps not of a very satisfactory kind, local government connected with a variety of qualifications; an'l, therefore, it appeared to him that unless they had the Biil before them, and considered the whole subject, they could actually do nothing in the matter. The Noble Duke said the other night that he was opposed to the principle of the Bill, but that he would allow it to go to a second reading, in the hope of being able to get rid in Committee of what appeared to him and to his Noble Friends to be ob jectioneble in it. Ail the Noble Lords who had spoken on the subject, with the exception of the Noble Earl opposite, who had always been the f, iend of this measure, followed in the. same course, and stated a variety of objections, which peoved that they still viewed the whole measure with unmiti gated hostility. But what was the groeed fur delay ? This was the question upon which he yet stood in need of explana tion. lie must say that it struck hint there was something extremely vague and gsneral in this proposition, under which he could not help thinking that something lurked, he would not say of sinister motive—he would not say that because the No'de Duke himself had fully avowed what his intentions were, antf he ( Lord Brougham) must have been blind and utterly stultified if he could not have comprehended at one glance what lie meant to convey—for no man ever spoke out more plainly on all occasions than the Noble Duke—no man ex pressed himself in less vague and general expressions upon all matters in which he was engaged—no man was less capable rf taking no a course which he feared to avow than the Noble Duke. The Noble Duke might be wrong in many things-- he (Lord Brougham) often lamented the errors Of his course ; but of one thing he had never accused him, and that was, of not on all occasions openly and manfully stating what his intentiolts were on any subject before him. The Noble Duke had ac . Wd with his usual candour in the present instance ; lie had declared that he was still opposed to this measure. But at the same time, whilst be admitted that this candid avowal had been made on the part of the Noble Duke, he could not understand why, after that avowal, the Noble Duke should wish to go on after all with this Bill ; why did lie not proceed to throw it out altogether, and bring in a better one of his own, if he was prepared to legislate en the subject. Why had not the Noble Duke moved - the postponement of the Commit tee for six months, instead of five weeks ? The Noble Duke objected to the Bill because it was bad, and then he said, " Let us wait fur five weeks, in order to see certain other measures which are as yet in another place, before we proceed to see what can be done with this one." One of these measures referred to, which were as yet in the other House of Parlia ment, was on the subject connected with the Church of Ire land. Now, he wished to inquire how the state in which that measure might eventually pass through the other House could properly influence their proceedings in respect to the measure now before them. It appeared to hint that one of these three positions, and one only, must be true. Either the Bill now in the other House would be such as to increase the power and stability of the Irish Church, or it would diminish its power and \ stability ; or lastly, it would not affect it either one way or the other, but leave the Church just in the same position where it was at present. Now that the Bill ke re ferred to would tend to increase the stability of the Irish Church, the Noble Duke had not the shadow of a hope.--(An expression of dissent was here understood to fall from the Duke of Wellington.) Well, he was very glad to hear that the Noble Duke, after all, had some latent hope on the sub. ject. Now if the Bill should turn out to realise his (Lord Brougham's) expectations on the subject, and at the same t i m e, not to disappoint the very slight expectations of the Noble Duke—if it should turn out to tend to improve the con dition of the Irish Church—then, as he thought, that would be a consideration upon which their Lordships should be induced to pass the Bill now before them, and if it were to tease at all, what reason, he would ask, was th ere th a t under such a supposed state of circumstances it should not be passed now ? In the second view which he would take of the case, namely, if the House foresaw that the Bill in the other place would eventually leave the Church precisely in its present condi tion, then he thought that all their Lordships would admit that this would be no rea son f or re f us i ng t o p a ss the present Bill, and, if not a reason for refusing to pass it, still less one for merely delaying it. He was now driven to his last hypo thesis; and he would suppose that, unfortunately, the Irish Tithe Bill, when it came up from the other House, would be such a Bill as to make the Noble Duke apprehend that it would lessen the security and power of the Irish Church. Now, he would beseech their Lordships to consider calmly of this position : he put it to the discretion and discernment of the Noble Duke to consider whether, if they knew that the rejection of this Bill in their Lordships' House would have such an effect as to insure the sending up to them from the House of Commons a Bill which, in their Lordships' opinion, would tend to diminish instead of increasing the stability of the Irish Church—ho put it to the Noble Duke and Noble Lords opposite whether, if they believed this, it could be con • sidered by them as a reason for reusing to pass the Bill now before their Lordships.—( Hear.) If Noble Lords formed this opinion of the Bill on the subject of the Irish tithes, it would be a most logical argument for refusing to pass that Bill when it came before them, or for altering it so as to re , move the objections which they entertained against it. But was there any reason why, because they should eventually • reject the Irish Tithe Bill, they should now refuse to give 1 the Irish the right to manage their own Corporatkons? But the fact was, they could not put off the consideration of this Bill to atva).t the reception of the other Bill from the House . of Commons under the implied understanding which appeared to be given by the Noble Duke and Noble Lords opposite, that if that Bill when it came up should be such as to pleise them, they would then pass the present Bill as it now was.— (No, no I from the Opposition.) He was sure that he should hear that ! He made the remark on purpose.—( A laugh.) He was convinced that he should hear from a very consider able number of Noble Lords opposite an indignant repudia tion of the bare notion of the possibility of their passing any thing in the shape of this Bill, or of the measures adopted by the other House having the slightest influence upon them towards altering their hostility to every principle, every feature, and every tittle of this measure.—( Ministerial cheers.) If, then, the nature of the Bill to come up to them from the House of Commons would have no effect what ever upon their intentions towards. this Bill, if upon no terms they would be induced to mitigate their feelings of hostility to this measure, then he came back to his former position, that let the Bill on the subject of Irish Tithes be , framed as it might—let the discussions upon the subject in the other House produce what effect they might—altering, amending, or modifying its supposed paovisions—in whatevsr form, in fact, it eventually were to come before their Lord ships—such a consideration would not have the effect of win ning any substantial support in favour of this measure. Ile would " nut say it might not affect one or two wavering crot chetty votes; but certainly that it would not tend to miti gate the general hostility which unfortunately prevailed in their Lordship's minds against this measure. This being the case, the two Bills, as it appeared to him, were altogether as distinct and unconnected as any private Bill, any railroad or other Bill of such a nature, could be with the Bill now before the House. Did not this demonstrate—he spoke it with no disrespect—the absurdity of the proposition of the Noble Duke to postpone the further consideration of this Bill, ur.til they saw what was done with other measures now before the House of Commons ? The Noble Duke's ob jections were well known, and avowed to be directed not at the period when this measure was propounded—not at the details of which it consisted—not at the mode and manner in which its great and, as he (Lord Brougham) considered, its invaluable principle was proposed to be worked out— he objected to the very principle itself upon which the mea sure rested.—( Ministerial cheers.) He objected to the whole measure. Like a great conqueror, his predecessor in history, who was said to have been a steady opponent of reform, and, moreover (in which he could not justly liken him to the Noble Duke), that he had never suffered anything in favour of liberty—of this conqueror it was said, as he now said of the Noble Duke, that he was " the enemy, the irreconcilable enemy, of the whole measure—of the whole of its details— of everything comprised within its four comers, and of the very grounds upon which it was constituted." He would say, therefore, why talk of putting off the measure for five weeks, in order to see other measures upon which its fate did actually not at all depend ? Why put off the going into Committee on this Bill, in order that they might see how they could nibble a bit away at one corner, and take - out one clause, and thrust in another, and make this and that amendment, in order to Tender it palatable to the Noble Duke and his Noble Friends on the opposite side ? Such a proposition, so to tally uncalled for—so totally unjustifiable—so totally useless, served but too clearly to show the lengths to which men might be pushed by the exigencies of political neces sity—( Loud Ministerial cheers, responded to from the other side of the House)—when, having taken up one ground of opposition to a measure, they found it no longer safe to occupy that position, and that the troops who were to hare acted with them in it were no longer united in views and opinions.—( Renewed cheering.) He came now to consider the next measure upon the strength of which it was pro posed to delay the further proceedings in this Bill, namely, the Poor-law Bill for Ireland. The only way in which this measure could bear upon the question before the House, as the Noble Duke himself had most clearly shown, for most clearly had the Noble Duke put forward his arguments, and therefore the more unfortunately, for by reason of its clear ness it stood in its simple nakedness, with nothing to protect it from destructive scrutiny—(a laugh)—most clearly had the Noble Duke shown that the only reason for delaying this Bill until they had the Irish Poor-law Bill before them was, that this measure comprised a matter involving the consideration of a rating, arid therefore that the provisions on the subject in the Poor-law Bill would give them an opportunity of finding a proper sytem of qualification. Now, he ( Lord Brougham) could not exactly devise a qualification founded upon a rating, because none existed, but he believed that he could find a mode of valuing a five-pound house, and in Committee they might turn their attention to devising a proper test of that nature, just as well before as after the passing of the Poor-law Bill, with its rate-paying clause. But why was it thut he did not think that rating clause re quisite as to the foundation of such a matter of legislation ? It was because lie rec Alected the Act of 9 Geo. IV., passed in the year 1828 or 1829, by the Noble Duke opposite, which was applicable to all Ireland, and by which any town, corporate or incorporate, might manage its own local affairs of lighting and so forth, and yet there was no qualification, no rating upon which to found a qualification.—(The Duke of Wellington arid other Noble Lords on the Opposition side here intimated that an assessment had existed in Ireland at the period of the 9th Gs°. IV , which had since been repealed.) Oh, the as sessment bad been since repealed ; but had the 9th Geo. IV. been since repealed also ? He believed that in many towns in Ireland that Act was still enforced, and that by virtue of i. the inhabitants proceeded every three years to elect their Commissioners of lighting and paving, offices to which con siderable patronage was necessarily attached, although there was no test of qualification established amongst them by which they could ascertain a Si. value. There was another Bill also of some little importance in the of ,sirs not only of Ireland. but of the State in general, which brought a con siderable extent of power into the hands of certain indivi duals, and from the dre=ad of which power, in fact, arose much of the hostility manifested to the measure now before the 'House—a measure affecting infinitely more potently the poli tical state of Ireland than the most sanguine anticipations of the friends, or the most direful anticipations of the enemie s of the present Bill would bring themselves to iin me aeine it could bring about : he meant nothing more nor less, ingret, than the Irish Parliamentary Reform 811, which went upon the princi ple of a Si. qualification, although there was no rating upon which to estimate such a qualification. [Certain Noble Lords here intimated that the Irish Parliamentary Reform Bill con tsined a 10/. qualification]. Well, the argument was tl.e same. If they could trust one set of voters without a test why might they not do so with others? At all events, as he said before, if a qualification were required, this was a point to which they could direct their attention in Committee. It was certainly a most notable absurdity to cay that they could not proceed with this measure because they had not before them a certain clause in a certain other measure now. in the House of Commons. No man could pretend to say that the rejection or passing of this Bill depended upon the rating clause in the Irish Poor-law Bill ; but, at the same time, if it was imagined that the rate clause in that Bill would afford a convenient test to modify seine of the clauses in this Bill, a clause might be inserted in this Bill, providing that if a Bill were to be passed on the subject of the relief of the poor in Ireland with a rating clause, then that clause should be adopted as a test of qualification, for the purposes of this Bill. He should net be dealing fairly with the House if he did not state that he should not advocate the introduction of such a clause into this Bill. The rate-paying clause was that part in the Reform Act which worked the worst, which ope rated to the disfranchisement of the constituency, and gave rise to the greatest discontent, and, as he thought, discontent justly founded ; and he hoped to lire to see the time when, if it were not altogether repealed, it would be most essentially mitigated. He could regard it as nothing but an evil, and he was rejoiced to see, from something which had taken place in the other House of Parliament, that, although the prepon derance of feeling was not perhaps against the rate-paying clause altogether, there was certainly an immense majority in favour of a considerable alteration in it. For the question now before the House, however, he thought they had only one of two courses to pursue—either to proceed at once with the Bill, or to throw it out at once ; as, from what he had heard on former occasions and to-night, he had no doubt Noble Lords opposite, with very few exceptions, were re solved to do in the end.—( Cheers.) By whatever means or routes they might each think proper to proceed, he believed that they all looked to aiming at the same desired point of rejection. They might in the mean time fritter away one part of the Bill, insert a rate-paying clause, dock out the: schedule, insert another, and, in fact, concoct so entirely new a Bill, that the man who drew the original would not recognise his work ; but the result would be the same in the end, and whether te Bills on the Irish Church and the Irish Poor-laws passed or not, the Bill was doomed to rejection. He would therefore earnestly suggest the decorum of not losing any more time in the difficult and inconsistent course which they had taken up, but at once throw out the Bill by the usual postpone ment for six months, or at once proceed in Committee to strangle it and smother it with their amendments. One thing or the other he would implore them to do, in order that them selves and the country might be able to understand what they were about—in order that when they were asked by others what they had been about, they might be able to give a plain and straightforward answer.—( Hear,[and a laugh.) Were they so overburdened with legislation, having arrived at the fourth month of the Session, when they had done precisely nothing— ( A laugh)—were they so fatigued and worn out with their labour that they could not screw their courage' up for one night's legislation in Committee ? Why should they be afraid of one night's business ? He would guarantee them against more than one night.—(A laugh.) This was the course which their Lordships should pursue, whilst by the course which they had taken up, and which by too many reasons which he saw before him he was aware they were about to persist in, they would not be doing that which he thought was due to the country, to their own dignity and character, to what they owed to the opinion of the public, nor consistently with the respect and good feeling which should exist between the two Houses of the Legislature.—( Hear.) Would they, upon grounds such as had been to-night stated, persist in pursuing the course which they bad done last year, and which had then led, if not to conflict, to conference with the other House—( A laugh)—conference ending in every man retain ing just his own opinions on the subject, only very much strengthened by all the arguments which he had heard from the other side.—(Laughter.) Would their Lord ships be prepared to take this occasion to adopt so new a mode of proceeding, putting off proceeding with this Bill with the intention of holding their decision upon it in terror over certain measures now in progress in another place ; for if the motion of the Noble Duke meant this he could understand it ; if not, he was utterly at a loss to imagine the ground upon which it was made ? He would beg to remind their Lordships that the other House held out no threats of this kind against themselves ; it had adopted no course calculated to be deroga tory to themselves or disgraceful to their Lordships ; but if their Lordships were to set a precedent that one House should hold out in its course of proceeding, an evidently implied threat over the other----( Hear, hear)—under an apparently in different motion for a fire weeks' delay—if they took upon themselves to set such an example to the other House of Par- liament, he would entreat their Lordships to bear in mint , they themselves were to blame in com mencin g a syst, that if the House of Commons were to follow u p that sys t em. it was barely possible that they might find this imitation of their conduct somewhat less convenien t than to have calmly and wisely abstained from setting so very doubtful an example —( Loud cheers.) say a few words to set himself and the Noble Lords With The Earl of ADDINGTON begged to he allovvcd .t.o whom he acted right in the sight of the House as to h e, reasons for the course which they were about to pursue The Noble and Learned Baron had concluded his speech wi a menace, warning their Lordships in a most marked mann:. how they set up a precedent which they might afterwards fin d it convenient to hese avoided. The Noble and Learned Lord also stated that the House of Commons had never dealt in m e_ nace. Did the Noble and Learned Lord not recollect an 0 e.,„ casion when there was a threat of stopping the supplies h, l es out—(Hear)—and with whom did this threat originate U o u n s . from one of the first Ministers of the Crown ?—(Oppostiti cheers. ) The Noble and Learned Lord spoke as imagined that their Lordships had entered u p on this st . er bate in a spirit of the greatest liostl'ity against the otn House. So far from this being the fact, the motion vcs, !I st in itself a very element to induce them to act in a conc t s tory manner. —( Hear, hear.) It would be recollected th.o amongst the reasons given by their Lordships for dissen ! as •g, from certain provisions in this Bill at the conference r 1) year, this House expressed an earnest hope: that the pe r _i ca . was not far distant when the two Houses, ening on a le understanding, might be able to give a systcm of leca,`,4 9, vernment to Iceland. That sentiment he, still entertained. The Noble and Learned Lord had advanced still a a position which he certainly was astonished to hear that this man of his known acuteness and observation, namely, • e, Bill measure had no more connection with the Irish Tita a bee than with any railway or canal, or other private Bill that ion ever come before their Lordships' House. Did this quo', bear upon the Irish Church question ? All lie could oey ve's that all the friends of the Irish Church conceived it did ( Opposition cheers.) He asked again, did this question beag upon the Irish Church question? All he could say was, that: amook-st °weed all the enemies of the Irish Church declared it did.---(R e " newed cheering from the Opposition.) Was it not said bf, many persons connected with Ireland, and who now asso ciateci• themselves with the party called " Voluntaries'.' in this coupe' try, that the only mode of giving happiness and doing justic e ' to the people of Ireland was to abolish tithes in tote, and te enact that no person should pay one farthing towards the gt tablished Church who was not a member of that Church? Hal they not said, too, in connection with their ulterior views and objects in reference to the Established Church, " Give us this measure of Municipal Reform, and then we shall see w hether .. we cannot at once:achieve our ends and objects ?"—( Hear.) lt was obvious that the opinions of these persons were differtte* from that of the Noble Marquis the Lord President of Council, who said, " I cannot conceive how these Corpora ? . tions, according to the principle contained in this Bill, eal l ever be the means of putting a weapon in the hands or the agitators and disturbers of the peace in Ireland." The lap' s guage used by these agitators and disturbers themselves sh owed that they at least took a very different view of the matter -e' ( Hear)—and who could fail to see that their view was correct' when the qualification proposed in the Bill was considered, sett the vast influence it would give to persons of the Roman CV tholic persuasion remembered ?—( Hear.) He maintainedi then, that this Bill had a most direct bearing upon the security of the Established Church, and that it would operate most dangerously as long as the Church question remained ue' settled.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") It was impossible for; them to deal with the question of Municipal Referral un tl ' they knew what were to be the provisions of the Bill that related to the Church.—(Hear, hear.) When the Churc h question came before them they should be prepared so tee CO'n Sider it, and if necessary so to amend it, as to render it es ; to apply the principle contained in the present Bill to the 100 government of the cities and towns in Ireland; but if, unfirt" tunately, they should find it impracticable to come to en' ' agreement on the Church Bill, unquestionably they would not depart from the ground they had already taken on the measur e of Municipal Reform. This was what he was chiefly anxious' to state, because the Noble Lord (Lord Brougham) had en deavoured by his specious statements and subtle arguments e e to dazzle their Lordships' eyes and understandings as to pre" vent their comprehending what they were about. The Earl of RODEN objected to the Bill in its prese l4 shape, because it struck at the very root of Protestantisi O% because it would establish Roman Catholic corporationg je the place of Protestant corporations. Noble Lords opposieo had challenged them on that side of the House to prove what way the present question was connected with the question of the Church in Ireland. Was it nothing to cre el in so many different parts of Ireland—in every c orporat e town—a normal school of agitation,• in which the apsest means might be discussed for bringing about the d es tructio n of the Protestant Established Church—that Church w hich had been declared by the Roman Catholics of Ireland to a nuisance to the country ?—( Hear, hear.) Whilst su e opinions and such sentiments were openly avowed, he for one would not consent to' enter upon such a measure as this till h saw it could be done with security to the Establishment ie Ireland. He denied the justice of the vituperations which the Noble Viscount ( Melbourne) had heaped upon the e xistill Corporations of Ireland ; and he challenged the Nobl e en ° Learned Lord (Brougham) to bring forward the proofs UP° which he ventured to call these Corporations " nests of abut and sinks of corruption."—( Hear, hear.) He felt satisfie, that the course they had pursued during the last two years hetl raised the elm-act - et- of the House in the estimation o f the r country.--(A laugh.) The fact was proved by the change? opinion which had every where taken place, and especially it the country which he so much loved and respected—thoue he was s not born in it—Scotland. He sincerely concurred the motion of the Noble Duke to postpone this question apt, the 9th of June. Lord BROUP HAM founded his condemnation of th° existing Corporations of Ireland upon the authority of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into them, and also uP e d the opinion of a high legal and political authority connec t % with that House, but not with that side of it from which hrs (Lord Brougham) spoke. The Report of the Comrnissio n .r said that the Corporations had used their privileges-a-th e h l e corporate functions—without scruple, not as trustees for t_s ben fit. of the community, but for the purpose of obtaining exclusive dominion over the inhabitants, and a political ';; fluence for themselves in the elections for Members to serve ik Parliament. That was the Report of the Commissio ner b When lie found the Corporations of Ireland spoken of in Of terms by such authorities, he left it to their Lordships to dm e ' termiue whether he was not fully justified in the epithets '- had applied to them ? The Earl of FALMOUTH never would admit that Is Reports of Commissioners, the legality of whose appoint fe e d was exceedingly questionable, formed a constitutional mo de trial and conviction of any parties whatever in that countrY' h o The Duke of RICHMOND sincerely believed that l e d Noble Friend the Noble Duke (Wellington) was only act ea ;ss by a sowere desire to conciliate, when he proposed to delay committal of this Bill to the 9th of June.—( Hear.) He. b e d knew the Noble Duke's character ; and he felt quite sett s t so that tl:e Noble Duke believed that by adopting this c ourse ; 0 , House would be best enabled to bring the question to a 58 ,0 factory termination. What lie wouldsuggest, therefore, isy, this : that they should go into the Committee without de alter the Bill in such a manner as they deemed most pr la n d and thus enable the Commons at once to see and undersilfabs the extent to which they were prepared to go.--( Hear.) .011 wanted to enter into a compromise with any man, he hoe r ' & Si said, without hesitation or concealment, "so far will I g e ' ht it no further: will you accept my proposition?" He thou r oe would be well for their Lordships to pursue the same cot e' There was one part of the subject which appeared to hire,, be d particularly worthy of their Lordships' attention. He apt' humbly submitted in the last Session of Parliament that '; ‘ ,011 cipal Corporations ought not to be given to every snua l tu - r og , in Ireland. To the large commercial and manufac* assres towns, and to towns containing a great population, he wto pared and disposed to give Corporations ; but he objec d t he Corporations in small towns, even in England. If he he hiclb power, he would only give Corporations to those town s ; c old from their size and importance, required them ; but he o biell do equal justice to Ireland. The towns in Ireland to:orno, he had last year recommended their Lordships to give C orso, rations were placed in a particular schedule of the 13i11,`40• made the qualification to vote for members of the Town 7000 cils the same as the qualification to vote for Members 11. their in Parliament—it was the 101. qualification. Now , , Cot' Lordships were prepared to agree with him, and to givers for porations to those large towns, it would not be neeesel;ifore them to wait until the Irish Poor-law Bill was brough t f them ; because the 101. qualification had already been ° r o s ter. quired into, settled, and registered by the Revising 0 100 ; in Ireland. The voters were all registered—e ll bo he' their claims had been sifted to the uttermost, and t gre nt' gislature would, therefore, know to whom they Wer e , i d ott ing the privilege of voting for the return of muniol) job; cers. Under these circumstances, it was not neees t s"Z kisti view of the subject, to wait for the bringing up of ear N ord Poor-law Bill. With respect to tithes in Ireland, tu e i o ed l " o ships were aware that upon that question he cntest& t , to e t strongest opinion. He never could give his se ecti re o a 8 appropriation clause, but even though the chant's w e itio set h e e that the House of Commons would abandon ,that e • o to would nevertheless, entreat their Lordships to go 0 3 0 0 consideration of the present Bill.—( Hear.) He w w bst ° bo y treat their Lordships to define to the utmost extent in pa ; go , were prepared to do with the corporations of I re . c ips l - se a he would not ultimately vote in favour of the W el ta blisP o t form Bill, if he thought it would endanger dis t i o did e te d church in that country. As at present informant. o bje c lre s know by what means it could possibly do so ; and Itis to his Noble Friend's argument, though he knew _ flo or; to in using it were the best. He objected to tell th ; buoy this country that it was necessary not only to senet:etieg maintain abuses in Ireland for the purpose' of pro og Established Church in that country.—(HeaOphoec tained that neither the English nor the Irish ,`l fie fo h o e r anything to do with the question of Municipal ~b use s of ( Hear .) He maintained further, that the mo re " he s cee c ef of the Established Cnnrch in each. Under thes e destroyed in both countries, the greater woul d be a . t ce f p osn o - c tioo °or he would only conclude by repeating his coo/lot W4„00, perfect sincerity of th e N o ble Duke (the Du ke into ti t° ge ton); but in his own opinion, instead of going ester 401 mittee on the 9th of June next, it would be _ ce to d is' into Committee on Mond a y next, and so at o n ce d the House of Commons what compromise they ...t oo posed to offer.—( Hear.) Nobl e v i tal? Lord WHARNCLIFFE differed from the o ond t ai e who had just sat down. He objected to the teo- 0 1: it un ee . li s of fication, not only because it was one of the r n and eSP e ;i ever established, but because in many pleec e A s j a tha t d " in Ireland, it had led to so much perjury. t/".4,44 e sur petition had been presented from Longford, r_4ollo alteration of the 101. franchise, and pointing Id tl b Lal Lt: TI-l1 SUN, 4N DO SATURDAY, MAY 6, 1837.