The Sun. — London, England, 1812-04-11 00:00:00

k_ t• Tn nst surely be ignorant of the differente betwten the circumstances of the landlords of. England and !hose of Ireland. In England it was common for - Mild to be. occupied without any lea s e a t a ll, o r t o `be held by short leases. In Ireland, it was altoge ther different, as leases were conimOnly let for very long periods. It was common there for leases to be granted for three lives, and undvr theae circum stances, by the operation of the present mea sure; the landlord rrniit suffer greatly in conse quence of the depreciation of paper-money, with .'e tut any certainty of his having even a chance of speedily recovering himself. He proceeded at some l ength to sfiew the diffeteece between the establish 'ed usages of England and Ireland with respect to i i • Paper money, and from the view he took of the sub aleel, strongly contended, that Ireland ought to be ' e xempted freM the oneration of. the A&. . Two i*ices had obtained in Ireland, and it had been corn bron for rent to be paid in gold, or an allowance blade, if payment were received . in paper. ^He . ! .v euld suppose a person entitled t o 16001. per an .' g umif paid in gold, and that, in consequence of the L d epreciation of paper, if paid' in notes, it was corn - ?non for him to be alloWed three shillings and nine- Pence in the' pound. In such a ease, what would . b e the effect of this Bill ? Why it would go to take 3001. a-year out Of 'his pocket. • This A&, 't had beet) said, . was brought in last year !n sustain the public credit, but in what manner did It suport public 'Credit it it violated t first rights of Public proper * ty ? It - it ,was Mu- diced here to pre , - . v ellt the establishi ng o f t wo pr i ces , i t cou ld not - with such a view he extended to Ireland, as these two prices bad been long established. It could en- . s wer rio good purpos e to e xt en d th e measure t o fae iand• Here it bed been introduced to maintanithe -"edit of th e Bankof England. He would ask the ght Hon. Gentlema n w h o p ro p ose d t o pl ace t h e Bards vieer 011telatid on a level with that of England, 11 :, h e had cpaite as much confidence, in the Directors e .' ),' the Irish Bank e s he'aad in those of the Bank of le igiann ? Public.codit, 'so tar from being support. tl this Bill, would, in his opinion, be greatly 1 , t 4 e ) i' , ' ed by it. Under all the circumstances be e ,.."' House c :t ild not ref u se io acc e d e to the amend n'ltt he h a d` to propose , i n older to give" time to t l " whose' interests were so seriously affected by ti 'e • 'treasure to guard thoseinterests. lie concluded si - I : uteving as a n ame n d men t, '' That the Howse I .` lll , on this day f o rtni g ht, reso lve it s elf i nto a Corn- trtat.:e." • 4 Mt. G. JOH NSTONE th oug ht no one cou ld now ' l lY that Bank paper in t his country was depreciated. le thought it would not be denied that two prices 4cl now obtained in England, and that more er MY ceininodity might be purchased for one hon. y ,".1 goineas than tor 1051. He then adduced a 4 ; ,, tety of arguments to prove that Batik piper was, . . rresent actually depreciated. Assuming this, as lus t t , l Which could not be controverted, he contend 114e, thst the present Ad event to do that which the 00 4 t Political writers, Smith, Hume, Lord Liver- O : s Fee. had sti g m a tis e d a s n o thi ng le s s th an a _ a l ld, inasmu c h as it weiit to force 163. to be Oaken ti Patient for a pound. The history of other [la- a t 's) and of other banks, pointed mournfully to what aa,likely,tre - result froth the present system, as he e, al l d see nothiug pt.! uliar in the seteaeer of this te i ,.`, ) tta to save it from that fate which they had been of a b le to avert. He then took a view of the history e t l II' Batiks of V e nice. Ha t uburgh, Am st erda m , `k c k holm, Rus s i a , an d A ustr i a, an d thence pro eedeo to EiltW the fatal censtqaencesot tee State's I nterference with the concerns of the Bank. lie text went into the lustot y of the Bank of England, and described the causes which hail led to the pre sent state of things. He wished the Bank Cow- P a ny could be left to themselves, as in that case they would lessen their issues, till at length their • n otes were equal in value to gold ; but the force of overnment•was a force which in no country could t; : e resi ste d , an d lie therefore came to ibis conclu sion, horn all he had seen, that the flank would ''''lntinue to gg on in the same way in which it had f t ° ne on so l ong . G overnment d ece i ve d i tse lf , w h en B, e s uPPose(.l it could carry on thebuainess of the State ' a less ultimate expense Owl/it would otherwise Z st tly the expedients now resorted to. What then i • e re we t o d o i n our presen t s it uat i on ? To return ..• ii illrn ediatelv to gold and silver payments, might be It t, ended with cons id era bl e diffi cu lty an d inconve - iert ee. He thought it would be bettt at once to ra ise l ; l, the ta xes necessar y t o p a y off the 3,000,0001. n ich Parliament and the Ceuntry had borrowed - un wisely as it now appeared) of the Bank. This e ought to do, and surely we ought not to say we 141 d not do, while we were able so largely to assist priv ate Portugal, and Sicily. He ' thought the ' l vale Banks ought not to be released from the ' ° nditio n which was imposed On then when • th ey were permitted to issue th e if one and two t po und v notes—that of paying them in money o en called upon to do so, on pain of being p r oceeded against, and their goods and chat tels sei ze d b y a very summary process . Th e i r not es in circulation might now amount to '2 ' o p o ,oool. Perhaps his Right Hon. Friend W , Q uid say, would you think it fair to call on them . -' a moment's notice to make good so large a sum ? tie thought it might be myle easy for them to meet tie ro by various expedients, from' several circum stancesl whiO he here briefly mentioned; and it was "I?teovet to be remembered, that they bad long t e n loYed a most valuable boon in th e permission they h ad receiv e d t o i ssue th e i r no t es . If t h e p resen t "Rill were tg pass, as, far as it affeeted Eng land, still he thought Ireland ought to be left Slut, and even Scotland he would wish to be ex empt from the Act, as in that case they flight be of essential service to us, in enabling vs, to return to a metallic currency. In what he had said he meant to throw no reflection on the Bank, (311 Government, or on the Private Banks ; he -only Mated what were . his opinions on the facts Of the va se, and from all he had. read in the history ;of other nations, he felt it impossible to hope, if the Present system were presisted in, that we should b ut from the , gulph into which we had fallen, ' t ot as oth ers Lad done—by utter bankruptcy, and . the total loss of our national character. Sir J O H N N EWPORT conce i ve d t h e measure be fore the House to be as reVolutionary a measure as had ever been passed in the reign of Robea- Pierre. He contended, that .the depreciation ofPa ,.P'r Money was most unequivocally established, that " 3 Make it a legal tender was therefore unjust, and Il l't at all events the motion of his Hon. Friend, WL ich only called for time to inquire into the sub- - • - , jet, ought to be accederllo. They had before them no inquiry into state of the Bank of Ireland, and yet was proposed to make its notes a legal tender. Was this dealing out ecetal justice ? What man in that House would be bold enough to say, he kneW the state of the Bank of Ireland ? He wished to be un derstood as not dOubling, bit if an inquity were ii . l7 stitote , t into' the affairs of the latish Bank, the result • wouli be satisfactory, but it was not enough that he believed this; as a Legislator he ought to kabw it, and he had a right to demand, for the people of Irel'and, that au inquiry should be made. There, was a depriciation at present of -ss. 6d. in the auinea, and who knew but it might g o t o io s . 6d. ? What security had the landholders of Ireland to the con trary ? The only petition in favour of the measure before the House, was one presented by the Noble Lord (Lord Castlereagli) from foul-Score persons, respectable traders he woad admit, but persons who he. believed paid snore rent than they received. Per haps the Noble Lord might be.liable to the suspi cion of favouring airs measure, with a view to elec tioneering purposes, with a view of making himself mere acceptable to those by whom he was before driven out of the representation of a certain county : . Lord CASTLEREAGH said, - he should not detain the House long . upon the arguments of ib9 flight Hon. Baronet, as whatever insinuation his speech might have contained, it did not afford much matter addressed to the understanding. With" respect to the measure itself, the e flight Hon. Baronet was as parsimonious of argument as any person could have bten Mica occupied the seine time. The original restriction on the Bank of Ireland was agreed to withpat inquity, and Parliamant had not teoughr it necessary to anqn;re into the solvency of the Bank of England, on the measure of - which th is was the counterpart., He (Lord Castlereagh) had stated before, that he saw no reason why the measure of dast year should not be Appliad generally to Irelaechas well 83 to England; the onlx difficulty on the sobjeft arose with respect to some counties in the north, for the laneed ittlereSt of w!ech he hoped the Right Hon,jßarooet would ti low that he must be in some degree interested, what ever electioneering purposes he might be pleased to ascribe to him. At all events, .he woulsi act up to what he conceived 'to be his duty, and endeavour to relkve the tenantry of Ireland from the intolerable oppresston,of being c illed upon to supple gold, when l it yeas impossible for their to Obtain it. He con -tended that the depreciation of. Bank paper, so much talked of, was rn refit negative, and aro s e from an increase in the v due of gold; the Committee, he thought, had taken up an erroneous acid hasty view of this subject. He did not rest the mea.ute merely open the Petition, but he, thought tte Pe titiOn entitled to some . weight in the discussion' of the question; for no man who knew any thing of the North of Ireland, could be ignorant that those who signed it' were persons of great respeclability. If the ,!light Hun. B tronet had any arguments to produce against the question, he, Undoubtedly would not have been under the necessity of alluding to the individuals who had signed the Petition, or. to the motives of any person whose sentiments were. fa vourable to the measure., No arguinent, however, had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet against the general necessity for which ire contended, .and in • which the me:tsure was grounded. , Mr. PoNsoNey said, his Right Hon. Friend had ,spoken to the question before the Honse, se le the , Noble Lord who had censured Iris view resortad to other topics titan those. which could come fairly under their consideration, for the question was not on the general principle, but whether that principl e , such as it was, should be extended to Ireland. The Noble Laid had stated that Bank paper Was not de preciated, but that gold had risen ; but all the last. accounts concurred in proving, that the quantity of &old had increased. of late years in the European world, and he had never understood it to be a am sequence of increased plenty to increase the price. As to the circumstance. of English and Irish notes being equal in value, the fact was, that they had met in depreciation, and it was the nature of the de- . ,preciatioe to go on, which would finally lead to this state of things, that the tenants would be possessed of fine estates, while the pour landlords were starving. If this measure was extended to Ireland, some re gulation shodld take place as to the tenures on which lands were held, anJ contracts to be paid in ' gold, and then what would become of the contracts in England to be paid in corn, for steely a different measure of justice could not be aeopted in the two countries, compelling the one to forego their con !rads for payment in gold, and admitting the other to retain and enforce their contracts to be paid in corn. The Bank of England, he believed, to he in as good a elate as any Corporate Body of the kind, having never entered itito any en gtigements it could not fulfil ; but inquiry ought to be adopted, in older to make the generality of the measure less hard. Mr. W. Pole said, he was glad that time Ho nourable Gentleman had brought forward this mo tion, b,-.cause it had afforded the Gentlemen on the other side an opportunity of strewing the nature of the feelings with which they were actuated towards the tenantry of Ireland. The whole of the', Ivo ['lents which they had urged. against the measure, the objea of which was to put the inhabitants of both countries upon an equal footing , was, that it would be unjust to the landlerds, with out ' once con descending to take into their .consideratioa the grievous situation hi which the tenants would be placed if they were deprived of that .protection which Parliament had thought proper to extend to persons in a similar situation in England. With respell to what had teen said abort tilt necessity of an inquiry into the state of - the Bank of Ireland, it hardly called for an answer, becaut,e the very Gen tlemen who called for the inquiry had themselves most distinctly acknowledged, that it was becauae they had all admitted, what indeed, it was impos sible to deny, that the Bank of Ireland was perfe6t ly solvent. No inquiry had been made into the state of the Bank of England before this measure was adopted last year; and after the unanimous tes timony of the Gentlemen on the other side, he, could see no reason why a delay should be granted fpr the purpose of an unnecessary inquiry. But the real faa was, that though Gentlemen professed to call for inquiry, the motion was nothing more than a vehicle fo enable them to deliver their sentiments at large upon the measure in general. The Right Honourable Baronet had contended that this mea sure was now proposed to be extended to Ireland, solely on account of the petition which had been 'presented by his Noble Friend, and had.endeavour- ed to t mince the rfoun that the people of Ireland in generk*ere not apprehensive of any grievance because they had not been incinded irl this Bill.— He begged to assure the Right Honourable Baronet that he was completely mistaken: The people of . . Ireland were anxious to have this Bill extended to them, and they would (eel themselves very 'hardly • dealt by if. they, were denied that protedion which was granted to their fellow subjeas in England.— %V hen this measure was brought forward last Ses sion, he bad. returned: to Ireland to discharge hs official duties; most of the Irish Members were also absent; but a representation was then made to the Government of this country to have it extended to Ireland. He had in a former discussion stated this fadt, and his Right Honourable Friend (i-1 r. Perceval), to whom he had appealed, had confirrns ed his statement. But were the Honourable Gentlemen on the other side not aware, was it pus• stifle that they did not know,that the greatest alarm was felt inlreland, when it was foundthat the Ad of lasts Session did not extend to that country ; and he was sure that if it were now to pass, confined in its operation to England only, the people of Ireland would complain, anti justly complain that their in terests were negleded, -and that they were deprived of that protection _which their fellow subjeds in England enjoyed. The Right Honourable Baronet had said that this,measPre would create a; great revolution in property in Ireland as any that had been effeded in the rime of Robespierre; but he believtd that, the converse of the proposition was true, and that amore complete revolution of pro perty could not be imagined thin that which would inevitably follow, if the people of Ireland were deprived of elite prote&ion- which this measure was calculated to affld them. The Right Ho nourable Gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby) had said that the tenures hi' Ireland were -very different •,'rum those in -England, that in the latter country lands -were •in general upOn.very short !leases, whereas in the former the leases were %cry long, and some of them fbr e'er. This statement was, generally speaking, correl, but he was at a loss to conceive how it operated against the meastire now before the House. Seven-eighths of ,the people of Ireland were paid their rents in notes, which did not suffer any depreciation, and the land lords who received those rents carried on all their dealings with those notes. But the . feelings,of the Gentlemen on the-other. side were : tremblingly alive to the situation of the poor landlord, though they seemed not to feel at all for the condition of the tenantry of Ireland, who might, if not included in the proteoion afforded by this Bill, be compelled to pay from 20 to 25 per cent. in addition to their present rents, by -being obliged to pay m gold. soli was no hardship upon the landlords of Ireland to receive their rents in notes ; it was not denied that seven-eighths of them had always received them in that manner; but it would be a serious hardship upon the tenants to be obliged to purchase guineas at-a loss of 20 or 25 per cent. to pay their r-ens. The Hon. Gentlemen were most anxious to extend their protedion to the landlords of Ireland, but with respea to the tenants, the only' protedion they would extend to them was to leave them _complete ly at the .mercy of their landlords. The only re lief they would give . to the tenantry of Ireland was to gi , e them the choice either of paying in gold at the loss which be had mentioned, or to quit the I , inA to „eieh teey were attached, and upon which they and their families had for years resided. He - w ould put the case of a tenant of a farm, fur which he fined. down hi s re nt, p p r ei e o a ri r tia l o la n vi r t : g n Ireland) to 2.501. a year, ! itt id i( 5 e 0O veryl. y a would it .not be a serious hardship ireon such a tenant to be compelled to pay 251. per cent. upon that remaining rent ? But that ve,e4 -a hardship to which the Gentlemen on the .other side were . most anxious to leave him exposed. He vas con tending for the tenants, they. for the landlords ; wished to extend to the tenants of-Ireland the ssme protect ion which was granted to, those in England; they wanted to leave them entirely at the mercy of their landlords. And yet these , A ere the Gentlemen who complained that, Parliament did not legislate equally for the two countries. It was impossible to conceive a greater perversion of the human under standing. He begged, before he sat down, to say a word about the supposed depreciation of the Bank 'notes. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby) had favoured the House with a shoile - of two per-, sons meeting, by one of them standing still and the other advancing towards him, and h - ad said that was the case of English and Irish Bank . paper ; but the fad was not so, the Englith notes had not sunk in value, but the Irish paper had risen to par with it. The Right Honourable Gentleman had tepre settle t the Irish tenants being all rich, and therefore-it was no hardship to make them pay .one;-fourth in addition to their present rents, itr 'order: that the poor landlords might not suf fer. But when the Right Honourable Gentle man talked of the Irish tenants being rich, did he recoiled the number of 40s, Freeholders there were in Ireland who would, if the Right Honourable Gentleman's arguments prevailed, be the first vic tims, and be immediately called upon by the middle men to pay their rents. From the first moment this measure' was propos-d, he Was convinced that it ought to be extended to Ireland, and he had heard nothing from the' Gentlemen on the other side to induce him to alter that opinion. He should there fore oppose the motion. Mr. PosrsoNey (in explanation) said, he had never called the law, which was passed last year in England, a benefit. He bad not done his judgment such a violence, and therefore he did not think Ise was guilty of any inconsistency in disapproving of its extensieni to Ireland. He wanted the state of things to remain unchanged. The Right Honour able Gentleman had represented hint as an op pressor; Here Mr. W. POLE observed, that the •Right Honourable G.!ntletnan was nut speaking no order. The SPEAKER stated, that as the Right. Hon. Gentleman had said he rose to order, he was bound to believe him.' Mr. PoNSoNBY observed, that if the Right Hon. Gentleman expeMed he should derive any popu larity for his conduct, he had no objection to allow him to enjoy it. Lord A. HAMILTON contended, that if the Right Honourable Gentleman's (Mr. W. Pole) argument was 'good for any thing in favour of the tenant, it went against 411 the arguments of last year, ,and that the inetsure conid nut be congdered as in cot the .same Js the treasure of this country, the dr , Cum%taices of the tvVci - UOUntries - heing different. Mr. HEttfinwr spoke hi favour of the measure. The CHANCELLOR (Af the EXCHEQUER said ) •that as the general question had been so much discussed on former occasions, there could hatdly be 'much ground for dispute in the present instance. If then in Eng'aed, upon a principle of justice, it was right .to prey , nt a man fro‘m being dragged tope. son, for not doing what it was impossible that he could do, it must be right in frelaed. That there . were parts- of Ireland to which the measure did not apply in the same manner as its applied, in this country, he would admit; but to many, and the greater part, it applied precisely in the same way. There was, therefore a chotc pf difficulties, whe ther they would apply it to the whole. co - entry,- or not to any part - of it; for how conld-they draw' line to distinguish and limit its operation ? One ar gument had been urbed by his - Hon. Frie - rlbee' hind hitn (Mr. George Johnston), which he thought it right to . notice as often as it should be'brought forward. He had stated that we were proceeding in the same line of insolvency another countries had done, where paymems in paper were adopted. If that was the case, one yenirld expetl that some trace or symptom of the ealam ty would hay-: shewn itself, instead of which they would find the contrary . was the case ; they would find, that since the Bill had passed, the number of Bank-notes,' instead of iticreaslng, had rather diminished; they would find' also; that the Exchanges had considerably improved: With Hambutgle they had fallen (torn thirty to feurteen and a half, while the mischief was going on;_ and in Paris they had fallen from twenty five and a half to eighteen and a half. The price of gold had. also fallen in the course of the present year. He therefore trusted the House wouhl see that as to the observations drawn from history, they did- not apply to the stale of this country, the 1 - loud aid the Bank having proceeded in a manner so dif ferent from the instances alluded to, as to leave no other.leundation for their representations than the fears that suggested them. He had thefurther tisfaetion of being enabled to state on the subjed of the revenue, that in the leading article of ex= cise, which was the most likely to be affeeled by the depression of trade, the produce bf this yeas' amounted to 17,950,0001. that of 'the preceding year having been 17,399,0001. The amount of the consolidated taxes' was 61,330,0001. 'and - in the year 1811, 62,136,0001: He thought it ma terial to mention these iaas, with this view, titt whatever theories others,. and \ his Hon. Friend among others, might entertain, he had the practice here to shew that we were going on in a manner which enabled us to maintain 'our revenue circlet all difficulties ; if we had tried the theory recome mend , d, the most it could have done for us would be to place'us in such a situation ; but If it had failed,, the disasters would have been incalculable. . He hoped, from what - had been stated, that the House perceived no reason why this measure should. be retarded. Mr. THouPsoN contended that the. Bank of Eng. land' ought not to be com Pated to any other bank ing concern. With resped to the excess in the sue of Paper, there was not a little of prOof that the assPrtion was founded in fan; that issue had not the effed of keeping up the price of gold. As to th* scarc , ty of gold and silver, it would be obviated, if our export trade was opened, for he was of opinion that the wealth of a country did not depend on the gold and .silver it contained, but on the produce of her labour ; the encourlg4tnent of our manufa6tores, by a free export trade, would put .the country in a situPtion to defy all the world. _ _ Mr. MAGENS was of opinion, that. Paper was ma terially depreciated. He wished, however, that the state of the circulation should be put upon Inch a fo, , tinz, as to give complete security. Mr. BANKES cold not disregard all the fans which history discloses as to the mischiefs arising from a:l -ing against first principles, and was desOotis to guard the House against the danger of legislating upon such principles as the bill is now framed. It was, he considered, a question deeply interesting,to the vital interests of the country ; but as a measure of expediency and . necessity, he should not vote against it. Mi . , STEWART was for extending the bill to Ire• land. He had conversed with many landlords, and had never found one inimical to that extension. The House then divided on the question for tilt+ second leading : For the amendment For the original motion Majority, 27 • 87 -=6o The House then went into the Committee on he Bill. • . The several clauses were gone through, after some discbssion, in which Mr. Giles, Mr. Barry, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Ponsonby, Mr. Attorney-General,. Mr. Brougham, Mr. Thompson, Mr. Elliston, &c. participated. • The duration of the Bill was limited to two\ months after the commencement of the next Sesd sion of Parliament. The House having resumed, the Report was or dered to be received on Monday. The Irish Spirits Exportation Suspension Bill wn read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday. , The third reading of the Innkeepers' Rates and the further consideration of the Report of the Embezzlement Bill, were postponed to Monday. Mr. W. POLE obtained leave to bring in a Bill, the better to provide for the Examination and Audit( of Public Accounts in Ireland•, as also a Bill to -ap point Commissioners for auditing Military Accouti s in Ireland: Mr. \VALLI& brought up the report of the Com mittee appointed to take into consideratiom the. Affairs of the East India Company.—Ordered to be printed. . _ Mr, W. POLE brought in the Irish Spirit any Bill, and the Irish Tobacco Duty Eio.—Rad a ti.rt rime, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday. _ _ _ On the motion of Mr. Secretary RYDER, the Lords' Amendments to the Local Militia B;11 were referred to a Selett Committee, toriport on the pro priety of their being adopted. Mr. Secretary RYDER gave notice, that on Tues day he would move for leave to bring in a bill ro amend the Local Militia Laws ac they re..Lted to Scotland, At t welve o'clock the House adjourned to Monday.