The Sun. — London, England, 1812-05-09 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COM1110X3; FRIDAY, MAY 8. TheTranSCerable S:ocli Bill went through a Com• the Report of whichAvas received, and the :lilt ordered to be read a third time on Monday. The Publicans' Bill, on the motion of Sir TuteroN, was- read a second time, and,committed for Tuesday. . , .. . The Manure Carriage Bill was read a second tirtie, a!t& ordered to be committed on Tuesday. Mr. SiiAW, of Dublin, presented a petition.frorn some c►editors of the Royal Canal COtnpany, pray ing for *relief; but it being an application for publit money, and not ►ecomcnended by the Clown, the ,pet►•tion could not be received. . . _ Me, \V PoLE said, he rose for the purpose of rno, nig that the difftrent papers which had been reient,d to the House relative to the affairs of the Royal Canal Company should be referred to a Selea Committee, in order that the situation of that Corti pally might be fully in% estigated, and that it might he ascertained whether, in the present embarrassed . _ stale - of their affairs, it would be practicable to secure to the public the benefit of th'at p,leat national work, and to grant any.rclief to the unfortunate creditors, who, under false pretences, be might say, bad- been led to their ruin. It would be necessary for him shortly to recaf to the recollection of the House what passed upon this subjea last session. A peti tion was presented "from the ProprietorS'of the Royal Canal Company, praying for relief. Their petition wai referred to the consideration of a Selett Com mittee, and that Committee, after a full examination - ot the subject, ieported that, under all the circum stances of the case, it was their opinion that it wou:d not be proper to grant them any aid. He mentioned this fact to shew the House the reason "vhy he had not recomtnended, on the part of the Crown, the'petition .which h ,c 1 just been 'offered. The Government of Ireland felt that after such a re port, it could not give its sanction to such a petition. But if the House should agree to his motion for ap pointing a Selea Committee to examine,the various papers that had been presented tespeeling this Com pany, the petitioners might, he apprehended, lay theft case before that Committee, with such docu ments as they thought proper. His objeEt in pro po,ing the CoMmittee was to ascertain the actual state of the Company, and if it would be possible to secure to the public the benefit of that great nati onal worlt, and also to inquire whether any relief could bt granted to their creditors, who had ad-- vanced no less a sum than 840,0001. for which they were not now receiving one farthing of interest. The Selea, Committee which he should propose would consist of The same Members that formed the Seled Committee last year, with the exception of two names. One was a Noble Lord, who from his official situation, could not now attend the Com rnittee ; and the o her was Sir E. Nepean, who was abroad. He should propose in their room Sir G. Hill .and Colonel Barry. Mr. Pole concluded with moving for a Sul. C, - 1 Committee, which was accord ingly appointed. Mr. \V. PoLE then rose_ pursuant to the notice which he had given, to wove that the House should on Monday resole itself into a Committee to con sider of a resolution which he should propose for raising the salaries of the Commissioners of Appeal in Ireland. These Gentlemen had very important and laborious duties to perform ; they heard all the appeals from the country, as. well as those wising in Duolin. The business of the rewenne was so much ' increased, that their time was now wholly occupied, and he had the satislaalion to add, that it was im possible for any Gentlemen ,to perform their duties in a more exemplary manner, or more to the satis faction of the Publie. These Commissioners were of very old standing, haying been established in the reign of Charles 11. and they were most inadequate ly paid ; their salary was at first 3001: a year, which Was paid out of the Civil List. In 1802 or 3, upon a representation of their case, 2001. a year was adds ed to their salaries;, so that at wesent these distin guished persons, .4 ho were necessarily eminent law ers, and who acted as.judges . in cases of . propel ty to a vast amount, only received 5001. a year each. This subjeti had been for some time under the con aideration of the Irish Govertnnent ; the case had been refgrred to the high Law Anthorities in lie la:td, who were deafly of opinion _that their salaries were inadequate to their labours. Under these cir cumstances, he should . , propose in the Committee that their salaries should be raised to 8001. a year ; that they should bold their offices like the Judges, daring good behaviour, and that they should be en titled to a retirement of 5001. a year after fifteen years service. The pension allowed to the Judges was two-thirds of their salary: in the present in stance, the sum to be allowed as a retirement was not quite two-thirr!s. This subject was very well understood in Ireland, and he did not think that he. should meet with any opposition in the motion from troy Gentleman from that couatry. He had tnenti (lied his intention of making this proposition to a flight H..noutable Gentleman, who held formerly a legal situation in Ireland„ whom, he did Dot i ,kit see in the House, and that Gentleman had ex pressed his approbation both of the increase of the salary, and of the tenure by which it was proposed that these Gentlemen .should hold their offices. He had only fun her-to add, that he should propose that t.la,se salaries should in future be paid out of the Con solidated Fund. There was uccW a deficiency of seven " IP - eight thousand a year in the Civil List in come tat < ee of the increase which had been made to the sa;ary of the: Lord Lieutenant, and by transferring . I; ese salarie*,to the Consolidated Fund, the Civil Lest would be relieved of fifteen hundred a year.--, it the Committee should agree with him in thinking th.st these sitlaries should be raised, there could not, be was persuaded, be any objection to the increase taking place from the commencement of the year. • Tire Motion was agreed to. Mr. FL SUMNER obtained leave to bring in a Bill for the better regulating the nightly watch of the City , of Wevininster, and the parishes in the vicinia ty of the metropolis. - He then brought in the Bid, .4 'rich was lead'a first' and ordered to be read a second, time on Tuesday,:and to be printed. The•lrish Suear distillation Bill, was read a se cond time, and ordered to be committed on Wed neslay. A new Writ was ordered for ..the County of Down, in the room of Mr Savage, who since his election, has accepted the situation of Ess.:heator'-of Munster. . Mr. P. Co4;:z cno‘fe4, that the Petitions ftotu the Frame Knitters, which were on ,the Table, should be refemd to a Select Committee. Mr. StAtTit seconded the motion, which was carried, and a Cdintnntee accord- irigly, Mr. G. CLERK moved the second reading of the Scotch.Distillanon Bill,. but there appearing ho en- admen). on it, the Speaker ditedted it to be with -drawn.. It was accordingly withdrawn, for the pur pose of prepating another. Lord BINN / G . poitponed the consideration of the Rrport of the Mail Coach Exemption Bill, to Wednesday. • On the motion of Mr Holt N'Elt, the following ac coun►s wele ordered to . be laid before the House, viz :—a to'al account of the official value of the Exports from Grearitain to the Continent of Europe, in the }ears I BQS, 6, 7;8, y, 10, and ii ; and accounts of .alf E4ports trout Great Britain to the Continent of Eutope within the period, distin- visiting manufaaures from Colonial pioJuce, PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. Mr. BRAND was surry to be oblig,ed_to bring for- Ward a measure of such extreme itnportance as that of which he had given notice, in so thin a House. —That it was so ernpty, he could `only attribute to the circumstance of its being brought forward by so bumble an individual as himself. He however had some consolation in reflecti►►g,' that th,,se alarmt►s -which had formetly been excit,d when this subject was agitated, by an apprehension of revolutionary designs ; had.in a great degree subdued, god he them fore trusted it would be calmly and dispassonately discussed.—He declared himself to be ; no friend to innovation or speculative itnprovemenie and, avow ing this, he hoped to have the support of the House aed of the country at large. The people in this country, alarmed at the situation in either trey saw the nations of the Continen‘, were satisfied 'Orel it was not for them to attempt any speculative inno vation, and he thought it would be Nell if the (err vernment of this country had imitated them, in thee respe&, by looking at the negled of Foreign Go vernments, and at its consequences, and profiled by the view in the same degree as he thought the peo ple bad profited by looking abroad. It might be said, why did he bring this subject forward now, at a time when the people themselves appeared indiffe ,rent about it ? That the people were indifferent about it, he would deny. They had before proofs that this was not the fad. The variety of Peti tions which had been :resented to the House, was a proof that,it was felt that some change in the. re presentation of the people was necessary. But if this had not been so, when it was considered how the manner in which Members were reteined to that House had been ptila!ished throughout the country, it would have been incumbent on Perliae ment to have taken the subject into consideration. A motion had been made by an Hon. Member in that House, on the pradices of Ministers, in getting Members returned to that House. The motion' was resisted,•and the general feeling of the House seem ed to be, that it might not to be entertained, as the practice was notorious. The pradtice, however, had been reprobated by many, and oven the Speaker had declared, ,with his great knowledge of the Con stitution, that Members were returned to that House though pradices et which their ancestors would have startled with indignation. He (Mr. Brand) thought that the admission of the universality of the ,prac tice was a strong and an unanswerable argument in favour of their taking the subject into consideration. That to which he had principally to direct the atten tioneef the House, was the number of persons who wete mantled without any claim to represent the people. He had made a calculation, which he would read to them as a curiosity, and if any Gen tleman denied its accuracy, he hoped that that Gen tleman would move for a Committee of the House on the subject, and then he '(Mr. Brand) would prove, what he should advance, and more than he intended to advance, at the bar. From the calcu lation he had made, it appeared that 182 indit iduals, nominated, or otherwise by their influence; procured the return of three hundred and twenty-six inemheis to that House. This statement would astonish at first those most acquainted with the manner in which Members were returned. There were in the House 70 placemen e and besides there were about 40 persons returned on either side by what was call ed compromise. What he most. objected to, how ever, was, that 1.82 individuals should nominate 192 Members in Ireland, Scotland, and England.— [Here it was observed that the Hon. Member had staled before the number of Members nominated by I 82 persons to be 326], He denied having stated eefi to be nominated by 182 persons ; he had said that number was returned by the nomination, or through the i mfluence of 182, individuals. Taking the tee Members who were so nominated by 192 individuals, and adding to them the seventy place men who had seats in the House, it would be seen that there were 202 persons who were net free to vole fairly, optionally, and according to what they might think was right. If to these were added the 40 brought in by compromise—but rather than over state the number, he would take the/number so in troduced at 30, and then it would be seen that two hundred and ninety two pet sons sat within those walls who had not the poWer of exercising a free discretion in debate. - The Hon. Gentleman here took occasion to speak of the Septennial Act. Hew it could be passed he knew 'not, but to hint it ap peared, that if. Parliament had a right to enad that they should have a duration of seven years, they had a right to prolong it for 2 t years or for life. Having descanted at some length on the disadvantages of Septennial Parliaments, he proceeded to state the plan which he wished to submit to the House. There were a number of places which returned Members which had no population. He would propose that such places should be disfranchised, and other places of great opulence, and possessing numerous inhabitants, should be enabled to return Mem bers to Parliament ; such as Birmingham, Sheffield, part of the large county of York, (which returned but two Members to Parliament) and that vast mass Of population to the north of Oxford-s.reet. The first thing he wished to get rid of, was the nomina tion of which he had spoken, as - of this he could not think without a feeling of disgust, which he would not exprees. - Mr. Pitt, in trie early part of his life, had proposed a plan for the reform of there presentat ion of the people which he (Mr.B.) thought the House would have done well to adopt, in which he adverted to the state of 35 or 36 boroughs, Teese boroughs were in the same' dilapidated uninbab . ted state in which they were al that tirtie. They were considered,,merely as property to convey si t e power„of nomination from one successful spe culator to another. There might considerable difficulty in transferring the eledive franchi*e to the places he had mentioned, but the nomination •tif which he complained first got rid of, - that alight be'an alter coosideration. It %%Tali toruierly -she prattice of the country to throw boroughs co:witted Of bribery, into the Hundreds. Now he would ask, what diiierence it made, whether a poor ig hermit opinformed voter sold his vote for 51. or a rich speculator his nomination for 50001. To him the criminality appeared the same, and the mis chief in the latter case much greater than' in the Fortner, Toe blibed voter could not command the person Pratn Whom he received the bribe, but the bribed nominator could dic:tate to that House, to the people, to the tVlinisters, and to the Crown.--, He'.wished some of these boroughs to be throWn into the country, with a view to their being subse- quently fairly and equally represented in Pat liameut. !the were allowed, to bring rti a Bill on the sub jeCt, he would prove that these boroughs were bought and sold as regularly as any woollen mann factures Nkere that Gentlemen wore When they came to that House. 'lt this were agreed to, .he :hoped the House would let, it go to a Committee, in which he thought he should with little difficulty he able to suggest a plan for equal representation of the people., He thought Copyholders ought to be •allowed to tote for Members of, Parliament. A Parliament like the present might do well to regis ter the editts of the Minister, to indemnify bun, and to cover him from the public indignation, but he thought ; after the decision op theWaleherenques 7 tion and after the decisions which the House had come eo on other questions, sb:ne of their of a "personal nature, which, for that reason, he would not mention, that no man who read their ,history, would think they spoke the sense of the people, or' sympathised with the feelings of the country. His opinions and his plan were the same as they were when he brought the subjea forward two years ago. He thought all must acknowledge that they were hot fairly the Representatives of the people. In all their decisions, patty was to be s e en against party, and interest against interest. A powerful aristocracy was to be seen against a bo rough lakaion but he thought no person in the country could doubt that the present representation of the country was unfit and inadequate, and not according to any like, in the most remote degree, a constitutional idea of representatioe. The House would never regain the confidence of the people until they sacriOced their own interests on the altar of public opinion. The Right Hon. Gentleman, opposite (Mr. Ryder), smiled at this assertion ; but be aright be assured that a proper reform in the re presentation of the people would do much more to tranquilize the country, than all his meritorous ef- t forts. He repeated his regret at the thinness of the House; he had hoped that the greatness of the cause would have a'oned for the deficiency of the advo cate. He 'rusted, however, that he should be al lowed to bring in the two Bills which he wished to introduce. He trusted that the House would no longer - shut its eyes so wilfully to the illegality of its authority, for he was. persuaded, with one of the most eloquent writers that this country eset produced, that " England would never be 'undone but by its Parliament." The Honourable Gerok mats concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill " to repeal the 31 George IL c. 48 ; and to entitle Cepy holders to rote for Knights of the Shire." The Marquis of TA-VISTOCK seconded the mo-• lion. - He declared, that if the Bill which he had ob tained leave to bring in for reducing the expense of elections were agreed to,' he would move (or the repeal of septennial Parliaments ; as he was per suaded that (in that event) short Parliaments would be highly beneficial, by increasing-the communica tion between-the representative and the reprcs,nt ted; and indueiug the former to pay more attention to the wishes and interests of the latter. With re spea to the great question of - reform, notwitlesiand ing there were some differences of opinion among those who were _friendly to' the general Measure, yet he thought those differences might easily be re conciled. Some were for radical reform', o; hers for what was called moderate reform. Now, he thdught, they might bteunited. The reform might be radical, as exterminating she roots of the exist ing evil ;—it might be moderate, as prOceeding not • upon wild and .fanciful theories, but on just and sober principles, by which the pristine health and • soundness Of the British Constitution might be re- stored. If then a complete reformation could not be effe&ed, at least let every effort be made to 'establish, ,as far as possible, the •pority of Par liament. If the House continued blind to these truths, the most pernicious consquences, bulb to Parliament and to the State, might and must even tually ensue. Mr. W. ELLIOTT, in a speech of considerable length and ability, opposed the motion. It appear ed to him to be nothing less, than staking, on a ptecariotls and desperate chance, the experienced and acknowledged benefits of a Constitution, which tiad hitlrerto been the admiration. of the world. Those Alto were advocates for a reformation in Par • liament, were bound to thew, first, that the hap pitass.and prosperity of the people/were diminish- . ed; and, secoodiv, that that diminution resulted from the deleas in the representation. The existing commercial distresses were out of the question. They were of a temporary nature, and originated in different circumstances, although he was by no means disposed to conceal their magrraude con vinced as he was, that to be fully sensible of our dangers,, was the surest mode of bringing to a suc cessful issue the dreadful contest in wino we were engaged. It might be said, that those distresses arose from the war. But that, in superting the present and every war since the Revolution, Parlia ment only expressed the sense of the people; how ever mistaken that sense might bt% a reference to history would indubitably establish. The American war, so adverse to equity and sound policy, and the ill effects of which were felt by Great Britain to this, day, was a war in which the people concurred. one Petition from the people had been pre sented against it. It was the virtue of Parliainent, and not the virtue of the people that put an end to that war. SO with Oct present war,- the people were so completely with . Mr. Pitt in the support of it, that the enemies of the w:ir in Parliament retired from their seats /dr a time, in utter despair of raak- jug any iniprmion on the minds of the people; hvourable to what they conceived to be the try view of things. The inference was, that the present :war was not attributable to any doted in the re presentation, since the people maintained as strongly as their representatives the principle on which it pro= ceeded, and yet to the war the existing distresses of the country were attributable. In general the House spoke the sense of the people ; and as to any, partie... eular decision, no.plail could rearove the imperfectich of human nature---no plan could produce an uninter rupted course of . I.yisdotn, or secure complete unani• linty. There would still be majorities and tninori' . ties, and the latter would still complain of the cot" ruption of the former. The theory of the British Constitution was incapable of being defined ; it coeti be deduced only frOm prattice ; it con,iseed of tual - checks and controuls among its coniponent parts, the mode of operation of which it ui, not' very easy to ascertain_; it stood on prescription, grew out of the feelings and habits and necessiue3 of the people. The ad ual state of things therefore wa s . the only criterion by which to judge of our 11101 Li' tions. Let this rule.be applied to representation.- - It was true that Birmingham was not represented -- that Leeds Was nor represented—that Sheffield liars not represented. But were these places less flon'' rishing titan York, which was 'represented—aaltan Hull, whi6i was represented—than • Bristol, which ; was represented ) Were the interest's of any parts' cular place negleded in the House ? . The filet ws' that the House ,represented the whole country. But., the retormatioo proposed w9uld at one blow excludd from Parliament, ,many of those who m ere best cal• - • culated to clothe country service. No one wished more than he that there should be an identity of in' ' terest between Parliament and the people ; but ire confessed that he did not wish to see Parliamen t whirled about by every blast of .popular There was no part of the proposition for reform, l ° which he so strongly ohjeAed, as to the restoratio n of triennial Parliaments. It vas said that they would be more pure. On what was this as-ertton founded ? If experience were consulted, it would be found tlint triennial Parliaments had been more personally 0 ,0- rupt than septennial. Their only effect on the pee' ple was to corrupt their morals, by taking tHe ill - more Iteluently from their occupations. An ana' logy in favour of Reform had been attenipted to . ° shewn, from the reduction of the Representativ e ' of Ireland.. That reduction was necessary.; the or °posed Reform was unnecessary ; and therefore.' he would not hazard it. So with respect to tb ° proposed Reform in the representation of Scotlarni' his atutnent was, ,that the present State of the re presentation of that country had existed f or abo . v e a century, and that no part of his Majesty's dowill!- ons enjoyed greater prosperity. Why risk all Il" 5 good ? Besides, how vague, how undefined; how or ,posite,were the opinions of those who proressed Chen' selyes to be the friends of Reform ! They scarcely g °e together at the Crown and Anchor Tavern, or at e Freemason's Tavern, before they began todispute opt ' their respective plans. How would his Honotnab Friend propose to reconcile these disc o rdant Or; Mons ) how could he conciliate 4-hose who in Ilk 4 j f presented a petition founded on t 1 abstract rights • man ? hoW could he conciliate that rent pairiorc l ': as he was called, of reform, Majoreartwrialit ? would he conciliate those who maintained the °Pc Mons of Mr. Flood ? 4 Society had lately be er , established under the name of " the Ha-tre e , - (2b." One of the resolution,;. advertised as ? ru l e' ceeding from this Club w as ,—" That ac(ovd", to the principles of -the great Camden, taxa ° if and representation were' inseparable." Nov i o d this meant '(and from its having the name sandion of the Honourable Member for I\Vestre',l„ ster, he supposed it dtd so mean) that every ° 4 • who paid a tax was entitled to a suffrage, vL bo w oq j. his Hon. Friend conciliate m these Hapden i ' l ',.ia • Whose minds did - his Hon. Fri e nd think he w cit4 a settle i He (,),Ir. E ) could tell hitn_what wind% o f. would unsettle. He would unsmle the miL' d 'och a large portion' of the liciptilation of the moire: would unsettle the minds of many of ,those were attached to the Constitution as it stood re , would tear up that stable anchor - of the State--a la a jud;ce (or antiquity, a reverence for ancient us e' acrd acknowledged benefits ;. and he w o uld Run t J, country adriftupon the rocksof vain speculatloo .Isoej fantastie imaginary improvement. He con i ` s oo that he - entertained some doubt with respect W l , l O petitions for a Reform in Parliament, w hich ve been laid on the table of that House. 1 0 advocates of reform k n e w v e r y w e ll bow be , mimic the Public voice. Ile did not, however , 0 5 - lieve that there was any thing like a general fe el n y on their side. In this opinion he w a s confir l eu. tft2.ir own complaints of the lan g Ui s hed state °, f t , 0(r public Mind on Pd the subject, and of the neces s ' t ioi,e' siring it up to exertion. To commence a• to mentary reform at the present moment-eve n id be it necessary, or advisable ,at a n y period, w". i ne to comn;ence the repair of a House in the hu rl '' f o' season. At this critical period, was it prod e° call on the people to search the veiy founda' iti ,`; v the Commonwealth) Such an attempt N av". ll , of only to make breaches, and-to l e t in all the t ur l o ct the elements upon that venerable edifice, wh' cin t b a se stood so many storms and assaults. C ) " oto grounds Inc should give his decided yore agnin s l ` ,ll motion.; it and he earnestly , hoped and pra)ed! rt • would receive the negative " o f a large ri"J °T. the House. LITTLtTON, admiring as he did, the s statesmanlike eloqueoce and statesmalike speech of his with. Friend who had just sat down, and coinciding ot ,if him also 'in many of his premises, felt h i ` ree d' .obliged dis-ent from its conclusion: H e 2 1.,,t• with his Hon. Friend, that the Constitution oh 0 land was built not on theory, but on pre script' 0, and practice. He agreed with his 1 - 1 00 . 1 " eil r e in his objection to many of the doarines.of th:our, formers, and particularly to those of the H°:: .) re , able Member for 'Westminster. To say .tna' turn to the state in which the five hundred years ago was no- innovation, \ c s iet y de:leive ourselves. The different state of r cip le# rendered the recurreuce 'to such ancient Pr' l) ,, l , r iv• . H oo , impraCtibable. But he differed from his ti e ble. Friend, in thinking that no Reform w i ba "representation f o r was neeessray. Making every allowance probability of his being biassed by nat'Y; he still was persuaded that the House 0 ' ~.4 ra . moos had mink in public opioion. To this,oo; too• dation their votes on- the question resc-ed l , e , conduct of the Noble Lord and Right tatio,73_ Hon• luqui r Y' ::ion opposite, .and on the Walcheren