The Sun. — London, England, 1837-03-09 00:00:00

feared, but too true specimens of the temper that prevailed amongst the leaders of what was called the popular party in Lower Canada. Was this, then, the fit period for them to enter into the discussion of the separation of the colony from the mother country ?—( Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Middlesex had talked of revolution and civil war. For his own part, he (Mr. Gladstone) did not believe that the people of Lower Canada wished to throw them selves into the arms of the United States. 'What had been the conduct of the United States towards those communities that she had amalgamated with herself ? Had she continued to them the same degree of nationality that had been pre served to Canada under the dominion of Great Britain ? ( Hear, hear.) Would the inhabitants of Lower Canada mend their condition in reference to taxation by joining the United States ?—( Hear, hear.) At present he believed the people of Lower C ana d a were f ree from the direct influence of taxation, and that the amount of revenue annually paid by them was in finitely less than that of any of the provinces joined with the United States. Supposing Lower Canada to be joined with the United States, how would its wild lands then be disposed of?—(1-lear, hear.) Unless the Government of the United States consented, in deference to the lion. and Learned Mem ber for Bath, to deviate from its fixed practice in the distri bution and sale of wild lands, would the Canadian province have any reason to congratulate itself on the exchange it had made from the dominion of Great Britain to that of the United States? In 1831, when the Noble Lord (Lord Howick) the Member for Northumberland had charge of the colonial depart ment in that House, and brought forward the resolution upon which Lord Ripon's Act was founded, how did the Honourable Member forCaliddlesex act ? He promised that if the Act passed the Canadian Civil List should be granted. The Act passed ; but where was the Civil List ?—( Hear, hear.) Up to 1831 the attention of this country had not been sufficiently directed to its colonies, and in the Canadas many things had been allowed to grow up which required correction, and that correction was administered by the Act to which he had just referred. He therefore took 1831 as that upon which the o)urse now proposed by the Government was to be justified. What was the language of the House of Assembly in 1831 ? On the 28th of January, in that year, the House of Assembly agreed to an address expressing an earnest desire that harmony should exist between the different branches of the Provincial Legislature, and that full effect should be given to the Con stitution of the province as established by law ; and that ad dress was signed by Mr. Papineau, as Chairman of the As sembly. The question, then, that he wished to put to the Hon. Gentlemen who supported the amendment was this : if there were no grievances in 1831 that induced the Assembly to demand a change in the Constitution, what grievances had since arisen that could justify the House of Assembly in with holding the supplies and making an organic change in the Constitution the condition of granting them ?—( Hear, hear.) He thought it was perfectly clear, from the language used by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, with reference to the fu ture conduct of the House of Assembly of Lower Canada (if, indeed, he was the responsible organ of that body, as he Was then supposed to have been)'on the occasion of the passing of Lord Ripon's Act, that that body would have been satisfied to have proceeded in harmony with the Government of that colony. Did the Hon. Gentleman believe that that Act would have been passed unless upon the perfect conviction that the House of Assembly would have granted the supplies? The Government, in passing that Act, were entirely deceived in their expectations, expectations that were reasonable and just. if, then, there was no practical grievance affecting the people of Lower Canada, which justified (and he admitted that real grievances might justify) a demand even for organic change, then what, he would ask, was the ground for stopping the supplies, and what the ground for demanding this organic change? Unless this House was ready to adopt an organic cisange in the Constitution of Lower Canada, with the per fect knowledge and conviction that that organic change Would only be the first of a series of changes—for the change now demanded was not final in its character--and unless they were resolved to enter upon a boundless course of unrea sonable concession, they must adopt the course which was proposed by his Majesty's Ministers. Ile felt all the pain which his Majesty's Ministers must experience in proposing such a course to the House —a course undoubtedly coercive in its nature, and intended to set aside for a time the privi leges and principles of ,the Constitution.. He fully agreed that nothing but the very last necessity could justify such a line of policy. But he agreed also with his Majesty's Govern ment in thinking that a case of urgent necessity had been established. He thought that experiments had been tried to the uttermost, patience was exhausted; and the question now was, whether the Parliament of this country would consent to stand disgraced and dishonoured, not only before the people of Lower Canada, but before the whole world; or whether by interposition, arising out of the necessity of the rase, and limited strictly by that necessity, it would relieve tl.' honest and faithful . servants of the Crown from the diNculties and calamities they now endured, and the Go verneeent itself from the moral degradation into which it would fall, were the present state of things suffered to cantinut ?—( Hear, bear.) Ile regretted the precise terms in which the fourth resolution was framed. He thought the resolution went beyond the necessity.of the case. The prin ciple he would venture to lay down was, that where it was their object to manifest the opinion of the Imperial Par liament in one particular case only which was at issue, it Was desirable not to pledge the Parliament or the Govern ment to anything beyond that case. By acting other Wise, they narrowed too much the ground on which they had to proceed. He thought it would tend greatly to prevent any disagreement, and would produce a very strong and general, sand all but unanimous, expression of opinion on this occasion, if the Hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary of the Colonies would devise some other mode of framing the fourth re solution, so as to obviate the objection to which it was now liable. In that case lie should give his most un qualified support to the propositions of his Majesty's Minis ters.---( Cheers. ) Mr. LABOUCIIERE came down to the House prepared 11 " give a reluctant and silent, but he must add, a decided "t° in favour of the resolutions proposed to the House by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Depart keest. But some things had occurred in the course of the discussion which had made him desirous of stating-, in a few Wards, the grounds upon which that vote would be given. It bad fallen to his lot, since he had the honour of a teat. in Parliament, to call upon the House for an expres sioo of its opinion, and even to adopt resolutions relating to thte colony, the affairs of which were this night under dis cussion. His object had been to retain these colonies to the alotlie; Country, by every means in our powor, as long as we cou ld' ; but, above all, that to the last hour during which that e 4iTlection lasted we should act towards these colonies libe es-LY sand ju s tly, so t h a t whenever the moment of separation "fight come, were it sooner or were it later, we should be able ;, the face of tne world and of posterity, to have a ° ° " ( lcas e, and not to stand before either convicted of having, 41 , 1 far as we were concerned, neg l ecte d t h e d uty o f a M ot h er C ountry toward s h er c olonies. In consonance with this opi 11,1°11 he hat; f requen tly h a d to urge upon the House what ap reared to hi m t h o we ll-f oun d e d gr i e v a nces inflict e d u p on th e hett" l onies of L ower an d Upp e r Canada, sometimes by the mis "ken views of the Mother Country, more often by the acts la t . the Colonial Office, through the management of the Go- Zeruor s in those colonies towards the people. Ho had often 1 7d to express opinions extremely contrary to the Government Ho he day w i t h regard to the po li cy pursue d i n the Caliadas. th had alway s so strong l y f e l t th e truth of the p o siti on I , at a country such as Canada could only be go reetrrated : rationally, and that it was only possible to I " as a B r iti s h p ossess i e n, in any way that c ould be useful to eith er party , by carr ying with us the rea. 3°l ;L h and the aff ect i ons of the people of t h at coun t ry —( Ch eers ) our isztjt he for one always thought it was our interest and zoctio uty, as much as possible to leave them the di possibil of thei r own concerns , and to e d as little as 0 with them. But he must say that there was one limit, and one li mit only., that he cou ld conceive to that general rule. As long as the colony of • Lower Canada remained part British empire, he would not consent to anything that would_ou tend to the degradation of the British Crown. He Parliament consent to abandon that high privilege and duty of s e' nan!ent to see that no act of injustice or oppression theeymicommitted in any part of the British dominions, wherever t that sittatiobe" . He th oug h t that things were approac hi ng to rn C e in Canada, that u n l ess th e British House of 0 \ -ent m i ght t Comm ons interfered, ther e m i g h t h e danger t h at some suc h t h e thought, supplies el h e e r Place lig y thhetrle. H on . G en tlemen had spoken, stop page of t ossible n of the e v ils consequent upon the lay, W as i t p t a count r y f or near l y four years and a step t -nt of th e state of _ o read without the deepest concern the being Lower Canada, which was described as u i sion the verge of a dissolution of all society ?—( Hear, !!seaatr_•) ie was sorry to have heard the lion. Member for b, who, however much they might differ in their politi cal op i n i ons, he (Mr. Labou c h ere ) a d m i tte d genera lly took large an d philosophical view of all subjects of which he treated —he was sorry and very much surprised to hear that Honourable Gentleman tall; about the Judges being deprived of their sa l ar i es in that colony as a mere pinching of their bellies, and of the privations of official men as a mere insigni teant state of things. In any country, and especially in a cso , ,iony, su c h a state of things could not happen without the nrocutive Government beinc , brought into utter contempt. He was quite of opinion with Mr. Fox that it was most unfortu nia.lecehat when the Constit u ti on o f the Canadas was estab lsn d .that the Legislative C ounc il was not made elective.— ?ear.) He firmly believed that many evils had arisen in consequence of th at course not having been followed. There w ere two C ounc il s in Lower Canada, constituted on widely dif ferent principles. The popula r p arty entrenc h e d t h emse l ves i n whatthe one ; and . he for shortness only would call the British ti,, a a,rtY, or the min or i ty , entrenched themselves into the other. t had been the consequences 2 These two Councils had ‘.. a• 7 , ays been in a st a t e o f violent oppositi on . H e th oug ht it not possible to find a bett er rec i pe to perpetuate those dis 4,en.asi en_s_ than t o p erpetuate the Constitution of Lower Ca cao was upon abstract grounds not opposed to an elective L egislative Council in Lower Canada. How any Hon. Gen 'theman could contend that it was against the British Consti tut i°n. and of our colonial system that there should be an .. er e Co un ,lil i n C ana d a —h ow any Gentleman who had read the history' of our colonies could maintain this pro 23:t!on, i n t h e teeth o f t h e f act that in America more than tr half of our colonies were actually governed by elective e.oglslative Councils, he could not conceive. Admiring as d d the great statesman lik e v i ews of Mr. Fox in many szt u , , u I gs, he never admired h i m more than when, in 1795, he 1 , with prophetic sagacity, the result of giving to Canada tr r i- , legislative Council upon an aristocratic principl e . H ed th e H ouse of that day, and said, " If you don't takey, °Le : , volt will have a Legislative Council which will riot be the 4 !‘o et . of reverence, respect, and affection of the people, but I :t .t i ,, lbst et of their hatred and contempt." What was Mr. 4 4 s t w, aresument ? His - only reply to Mr. Fox was—" I will not g l e es v f yo o r ; the whole thing is only an experiment."—(Loud two of eszbelecar, hear.") li e th oug h t i t was qu it e c l e ar th a t ommissioners, Lord Gosford and Sir chinks Grey, conceived that it was very unfortunate the principle of an elective Council was not originally introduced into the Constitution of Lower Canada, and that theylthought it would be a material improvement to introduce that principle into the Legislative Council, under some modification or other. On this point he entirely agreed with those Commissioners. He would not lay it down that the elective principle ought to be universally adopted, but lie would say that neither from reason nor precedent could lie discover any good arge_ ment against such an institution. Having admitted this prin ciple, the question before him was narrowed to this point— whether lie was prepared to take the alternative offered him both by the House of Assembly of Lower Canada and the Hon. Member for Bridgwater, and instead of voting for the resolu tions of the Noble Lord, express it to be his opinion that the Legislative Council of Lower Canada should be imme diately made elective. But this was not the °illy proposition he was called upon to affirm; there were others, some of which appeared to be so unconstitutional, and others so fraught with injustice to individuals, that he never could give his con sent to them. Mr. ROEBUCK—What are they? Mr. LA BO ITC HERE would tell the Hon. Member at once what they were. The first was that which referred to the Executive Council being made responsible to the House of Assembly. He really could hardly conceive a public body of the respectability of that House of Assembly making any such claim. It was incompatible with any relation between a colony and the Mother country. The next was with re gard to the repeal of the Quebec Tenures Act. lle thought that would be a work of positive and gross injustice ; it would be an act of spoliation. Having made up his mind that it was the duty of Parliament to interfere in order to put an end to the present state of distraction in Lower Canada, and enable the machinery which was now standing still to move at all, he then conceived that it was the duty of Government to propose only such a measure to Parliament as should be as little beyond the ordinary course of the Con stitution as possible, in order to produce that effect, and he did apprehend that the resolutions proposed by the Noble Lord were exactly the policy which ought to be followed. The effect of those resolutions would be to put an feed to that most unseemly thing—that of public officers not having received any salaries for several years. He should, however, have felt it extremely difficult to vote for that re solution, which refused for the present to consider the ques tion of an elective Legislative Council, if to that had not been appended another, which pledged the House and the Government to take effectual steps for rendering the compo sition of the Legislative Council of Lower Canada more fit ting to perform the functions than it was at present. He heartily rejoiced that the Government, by these resolutions, pledged themselves to look seriously to that point, with a view to render it more effectual for the purposes for which it was intended. He was more anxious to say this, because the lion. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Gladstone) had argued the case for the Legislative Council, and against the House of Assembly, as if the House were going to give a vote this night as for the one and against the other. His (Mr. Labouchere's) vote, would be nothing of the kind, for the Commissioners stated in their Report, that while the Legislative Council professed the greatest desire to do their duty, yet they actually obstruc ted passing into law various measures passed by the House of Assembly for the establishment of local governments in all parts of the colony. With this before us, it was impossible to say that the faults were all on one side. He would not trouble the House with any further observations, but he had felt himself called upon to justify the part he had taken on former occasions—and also to state the grounds which would induce him to give his vote that night. —( Hear.) Lord STANLEY said that before he proceeded to the sub ject matter of discussion, he trusted that he might be permitted to take notice of one circumstance, which, although in this country it might produce no effect, might be misunderstood, and probably, from what had taken place, was calculated to be misunderstood in the colonies. He alluded to a subject which probably few Hon. Members then present were ac quainted with; he meant that at the fatal hour of half-past 7 an attempt was made to count out the House.—( Hear, hear.) What did Hon. Members mean by cheering ? Was not the gallery cleared ?—was not the House counted—thanks to the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath—and were there not suf ficient Members present to constitute a House? And why was this done ? Was it not to show how small a number of Members were present at the discussion on the affairs of Ca nada 2—( Hear, hear.) But he begged to recal to the recol lection of lion. Members the state of the House the night be fore last, for in his life he had never seen, on the discussion of a subject of British and domestic policy, a more full atten dance of Members, and a more anxious and attentive House to the discussion of the subject.—( Hear, hear.) But, however, patience has its limits.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He was one of the Members who had been present nearly all the evening. Ile came down to the House at a quarter before five, and on Isis road he met shoals of Members coming away ; and on asking what was the business before the House, the universal answer was, " Hume is up."—( Great laughter, and cries of " Hear.") This was at a quarter to five. The House was counted at a quarter to seven, and the Hon. Member for Middlesex was not only then speaking, but he had not finished his speech at a quarter to eight.—( Laughter and cries of " Hear.") Was the Hon. Member speaking to the subject or not ?—(Hear, hear.) Let those who sat and listened to him for three mortal hours state what was the case, or let other Hon. Members read the reports ; of which, however, they might be deprived, unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer was pleased to make some relaxation as to his superficial rule as regarded newspa pers.—( A laugh.) lion. Members, however, might become acquainted with this fact by means less irksome to themselves than by reading the Hon. Member's speech, for he did not wish to inflict such a punishment on them. The greater part of the Hon. Member's speech referred to a question not before the House or connected with the subject matter of debate. The subject matter on which the Hon. Gentleman addressed the House at such length was a quarrel on the subject of a correspondence that had taken place between Mr. M`Kenzie of Upper Canada and Mr. Hume of Middlesex.—(Hear, hear, and laughter) —letters were read of the date of March the 10th and other periods, from Bryanston-square, and others in reply from Toronto.—( Laughter.) The House were then told that in the debate in the House of Assembly in Upper Canada the question was set aside by 13 to 7 against Mr. Hume, and they had given to them the names of the mover and seconder, and the only wonder was that they had not the speeches read to them at length.—(Laughter.) The Hon. Member then proceeded to make various desultory observa tions on Mr. Haggerston, and this occupied the greater por tion of the time during which he addressed the House. For his own part, he believed that no greater punishment could be inflicted on the unfortunate delinquents complained of at such length by the Hon. Member, than compelling them to read . the Hon. Gentleman's speech.—( A laugh.) lie would not notice the attacks the lion. Member was pleased to make on himself ; but he wished to notice that for two hours and a half of the time of a most important discussion on the affairs of Canada the Hon. Member chose to indulge in matters having no relation to the question, but rather relating to himself per sonally. When, therefore, the Hon. Member complained of the thinness of attendance and the want of attention during his speech, he should consider that it was not that the House of Commons regarded Canada less, but that they deprecated Hume more.—( Cheers and laughter). He wished now to return to the question immediately at issue. He felt that it was a subject of unparalleled difficulty and danger to their colonies. lie agreed with the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath that that was no time for indecision or passive conduct— that was a time when the Legislature and the Government must frankly concede or boldly deny—( Hear, hear)—they must boldly assert the principles on which they meant to act, for this was a question which admitted of no tampering, but they must be prepared to face the subject boldly.—( Hear, hear.) If he felt any difficulty as to the vote he should give, it was not as to the side of the House which he should take when they were called upon to come to decision, but he felt more deeply than he had ever done before how much his vote might be misinterpreted. Fearing, therefore, to give his sanc tion to a course so indecisive and doubtful as that proposed by his Majesty's Government, he felt bound to speak openly and candidly his sentiments.—( Hear.) He affirmed—and he did so in the broadest and most open manner that it could be given —that, in the present state of Canada, the House could not and dared not yield to the demands of the Canadians.—( Hear. ) The Hon. and Learned Member for Bath had referred to the Acts of 1774 and 1778, passed during the early period of our colonial government there, and which they had been told had 'been violated. He asked what were the specific grounds of complaint as regarded these Acts, which had been put forward by the House of Assembly of Lower Canada ? He asked what were the demands made, and what would be the consequences of concession to the colony as well as to this country ? They were told that the Government and that Houso wished to trample on the lib e rti es o f C ana d a , an d t h at b y denying — tbe demands made by the Assembly of Lower Canada, they would violate the liberties of a free and independent people.—( Hear. ) Did Hon. Gentlemen opposite place such a construction on the proceedings ? He was sure that it was an accidental ex pression that fell from the Noble Secretary for the Colonies, to call the Canadians an independent people.—( Hear.) A free people they undoubtedly were, but as independent people they were not. In this laid all the fallacy of the argument used on the other side. There were three chief demands. Two of these were for rights and privileges which the mother country did not possess herself; and the third was one which, if conceded, would render impossible any further connection with the mother coun try. Let the House examine them, not merely scanning them in all their bearings, but taking a general view of them. But what were their demands ? He would take them seriatim ; and he would ask the House of Commons whether the House of As sembly of Lower Canada did not demand privileges and powers which that House had never arrogated to theniselves. The first of these demands to which he wished to call the attention of the House was, that the two branches of the Legislature should be elective. Was this a power which was demanded or desired by this country ? Was this demand for Canada meant as a precedent to lead to the same result in this country ? So far from a right of this kind being in unison with the British Constitution, it was a right directly at 'variance with it, and not possessed by any portion of the people. What was the second demand ? It was for a power which the House of Commons did not possess—it was a demand which no House of Com mons or Government would allow, and which, if allowed, no Government could sit on those benches for three weeks. The demand was, that the House of Assembly should vote every item of expenditure from first to last.—( Hear, hear, hear. ) Hon. Gentlemen said " Hear, hear;" but, he asked, was the Crown in no respect independent of that House ?—( Hear.) Did the Hon. Member for Middlesex mean to tell him that the Crown had no hereditary revenue ?—( Hear, hear, and " No.") The Honourable Member for Middlesex had sat long in that house, but he had sat to very little purpose indeed if he was ignorant of the fact that at the commencement of every reign the Sovereign waives the possession of a right which passes indefeasibly to his successor—namely, those in dependent possessions which the Sovereign holds independe nt of Parliament; anti the income of which no yields up on Par liament giving bins a fixed Civil List for the time of cession ; and when the Civil List ceases, the hereditary possessions of the Crown revert to the Sovereign._-( Hear.) Was not this the law of Parliament as well as the uniform practice ? ( Hear.) Was it not also Parliamentary law, that certain salaries were paid, by a permanent arrangement, out of the Consolidated Fund, instead of their bein g called upon year after year to squabbl e on ques ti ons o f a halfpenny about their salaries with the Hon. Member for Middlesex?—( Hear, hear.) Was not this the case with respect to the payments made for the administration of justice and the salaries of the civil officers of State? It was absolutely necessary, in conformity with the British Constitution, that there should be some permanent source of revenue for the objects he had mentioned inde pendent of the vote of the House of Assembly.—( Cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") The total revenue of Lower Canada was 150,0001. a year. Not one farthing of this was withheld from the control of the House of Assembly—( Hear) —there was one shilling of it expended which they did not dire Ct—there was no act of expenditure which they did not know of. Let the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath deny the correctness of this statement if he could. There were certain revenues in Lower Canada, over which, from the foundation of the colony, the House of Assembly had no con trol—he meant casual and territorial revenues, analogous to the land revenue of the Crown in England. These revenues arose from certain payments as seignorial rights in Lower Canada, from the sale of timber on waste land, and from a right which he had never heard disputed, namely, the waste and unappropriated land of the country. There was also another point at issue, namely, as to the right to the du ties which were imposed by the Act of 1772. The Ho nourable Gentleman referred to the Act of 1774, and to the Act of 1778, to prove the right of the House of Assembly to deal with these duties. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman, when it suited his purpose, referred to the Act of 1792, but he did not on this point; and the reason was perfectly obvious ; that Act stated that Parliament would not impose duties or taxes to be paid in Canada with cut the assent of the Legislative Houses in Canada.—( Hear, hoar.) Until within these few years it had never been disputed that this Act had no past reference. Nothing had been said on this subject until 1820; but he begged the House to recollect what had taken place in 1831. In 1831, his Noble Friend, then Colonial Secretary, and upon whom the Hon. Member for Middlesex had passed such panegyrics at his (Lord Stanley's) expense that night, had endeavoured to satisfy the Colonial Assembly on this point. He offered that, saving and except the casual and territorial revenues of the Crown, the whole taxes levied in Canada should be given up to the control of the House of Assembly in the provinces, on condition that the Governor and high officers of State, the Judges and the officers necessary for the administration of jus tice, should be secured from the capricious control of the House, by having their salaries secured to them at the com mencement of each reign for the life of the King. The con dition was thankfully accepted on the part of the Canadians. What followed? Upper Canada gratefully accepted the con cession, and passed the Civil List. Lower Canada, however, re fused to do so. And these were the men who charged us with a violation of their constitutional rights—with violating the free dom of their Constitution, in imposing on them taxes, the right of disposal of which rested solely with themselves, rights which they never had till they received them from us in 1831 — received them on terms which they had since most disgrace fully depart e d f rom . —( H ear , h ear .) S o much for the two first points as to an elective . Legislative Council and the financial question ; next a few observations on the subject of the Executive Council. This was a body whose functions were to act as advisers of the Governor on affairs of state when required so to do, something after the manner of our Privy Council. Here the demand was that the Executive Council should be rendered directly responsible to the House of As sembly. Here again was confounded altogether the wide and manifest distinction between an independent and a subordinate state ; the King was subordinate to no one ; the King's Mi nsters were responsible for him to the country ; but what was the position of the Governor of this colony ? He was re sponsible to the Crown here, to the Ministry here, he acted under the orders of the Ministry, and for his acts were the Ministry responsible to the Legislature. To impose on him, then, a double responsibility—a responsibility to the Govern ment at home if he did not obey their instructions, and a re sponsibility to the House of Assembly if he acted contrary to their orders—would be to constitute two independent Legisla tures interfering with and counteracting each other ; yet this was the position in which it was desired to place the affairs of Canada. He ( Lord Stanley) perfectly agreed with the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath, that this was no sub ject for half and half measures, no question of expediency, but a question of empire—( Hear, hear)-_a question whether or no this colony was to be held, or was to be given up.—( Hear.) A middle course, so far from disarming enmity, and softening down the claims of the Lower Canadians, would but the me r e provoke them. The house must declare itself prepared either to resist the demandsAS the House of' Assembly, or to accede to them. 'What said the Hon. and Learned Member fur Bath as to the propositions before the Committee ? That Hon. and Learned Member declared with great frankness and man liness, and the Hon. and Learned Member's opinion was en titled to very great weight in the Committee, appearing as he specifically did as the retained, the salaried advocate—and he ( Lord Stanley) used the term with no offensive intention— the salaried advocate of the dominant majority of Lower Canada, whose duty as such was fully to ascertain what were the passions and prejudices of that majority—what did that Hon. and Learned Member say ? Ile declared the step proposed to be taken to be unjust, impolitic, and inade quate. He (Lord Stanley) also considered the resolutions— he would not say unjust, but impolitic—impolitic because inadequate—( Hear, hear) ; for while they amounted to as great a violation as their powers could be guilty of of those constitutional rights which they so loudly invoked and ex pressed so great a reluctance to tamper with, all they proposed to do for those who had been suffaring for four or five years in penury and indigence, the result of Ministerial indecision—. (Hear, hear)—was to give these injured parties the paltry arrears of their salary, leaving them exposed for the future to the certainty—as the Hon. Member for Bath candidly ad mitted—of precisely the same or more bitter sufferings and privations, and to the increased hostility of their present per secutors—and all this because Ministers could not make up their minds to say yes or no.—( Loud Opposition cheers. ) The Hon. Member for Middlesex had done him the honour of saying that ho (Lord Stanley) had been, in 1831, the source of all the inconveniences and distresses of the colony, although it was notorious that the stoppage of the supplies commenced just eighteen months before he accepted the colonial office. It was rather singular that in the very correct and detailed account which the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath had gone into of all the proceedings which had taken place, he had never for a single moment adverted to the fact that in 1834, at the time when he (Lord Stanley) filled the office of Colonial Se cretary, a Committee was appointed by the House, which mi nutely, patiently, and carefully investigated every grievance alleged by the agents of the Canadian population, of which Committee the Hon. and Learned Member himself was a member. At the conclusion of the inquiries of that Commit tee, at the instance of the Right Hon. Gentleman who suc ceeded him in the Colonial Department, he had abstained from asking that the evidence taken before the Committee should at that time be printed, or that any report should be drawn up on the subject. If, however, Parliament proposed to enter into this colonial question, it was most desirable that the evi: dente taken before that Committee should be printed and laid before the House. The CEIANCELLOR of the EXC E Q LTE R said that it was intended to print the evidence, and bring it before the House. Lord STANLEY was rejoiced to hear that such was the case, as it was most essential that the whole question should be before the House and the public.--( Hear, hear.) He would not trouble the House with many details, but he would call their attention to what Lord Gosford had said on the subject on the 12th March, 1836. "We are far advanced in the fourth year, since there has been any appropriation of provin cial funds to the use of Government ; and although a sum, temporarily contributed from the British Treasury, has re lieved the civil officers so far as to give them one year's salary during that period; the third 'year is pasiing away, during which they have not had the smallest fraction of their earnings in the service of the public. The distress and embarrass ment which this state of circumstances has inflicted on the ... ~. ....., functionaries of the province, may be easily conceived. Many arc living on money borrowed at an exorbitant interest; some cannot but be reduced to the verge of ruin: and to show that this suffering of individuals is not unattended with dan— ger to the general welfare, it may be enough to remark, without painfully dwelling on private circumstances, that the judges of the country are amongst those who are left to pro vide for their subsistence as best they may, after three years' stoppage of their official incomes." This letter from Lord Goaford was received by Lord Glenelg some time in June 1836, and an answer was sent in the same month ; and what was the answer to this tale of distress and ruin ? Why, the answer was that " his Majesty's Ministers were quite confi dent there must be some mistake"_( Hear, hear, and laugh ter)—and Lord Glenelg further communicated to the Chief Commissioner that "conscious that measures had been adopted with an earnest solicitude for the welfare of all classes of Ca nadian subjects, his Majesty waits with tranquillity the result of this long and painful struggle."—( Hear, hear, and laugh ter.) • It was possible that Lord Glenelg might await the result with great tranquillity, but he (Lord Stanley) was sure that no other Colonial Minister in the world could do ee ._( Hear, hear, hear.) In the same communication Lord Gosford 'was desired to ascertain from the House of As sembly whether there •was not a mistake in the matter. Lord Gosford put the question, and was told in so many words that there was " no mistake" in this case at all events—( Great laughter and cheers)—and the House of Assembly intimated that they thought they had expresed themselves in terms which it was impossible to misunder stand.—(Hear, hear.) Such was the position of Canadian affairs; such were the perilous circumstances under which Ministers came down to the House with their resolutions, talking about their extreme reluctance to take any unconsti tutional steps, their desire to limit themselves within the nar rowest bounds which the exigencies of the case required, showing their teeth but not daring to bite.—( Hear, hear.) But he would put it to the House what were these inadequate,. these insignificant proc ee di ngs —t h ese " waitinLrs a little longer," but a premium for continued and enlarged demands cn the part of the Assembly.—( Hear, hear.) Ile would not follow up the parallel which had been instituted between this question and that of Ireland ; but he would just call to the recollection of Ministers a sentiment in reference to Iceland uttered by a Noble Friend of his not then in his place, and much cheered on the opposite side, to the effect that " if the majority of the people demand a change, that change must be conceded ; and if it be not deemed sufficient, further con- cessions must be matle."—( Ilear, hear.) Now, let the House reflezt that this sentiment would be treasured up and applied :0 their own case by the people of Lower Canada►—( Hear)-__ that moreover they would read the speech of the Noble Se- THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 1837 cretary at NI ar, and still more the speech of the Right Hon. Member for Taunton—a man universally known, loved, and looked up to—whose opinion would carry with it great weight, and who had declared that he considered an elective Legislative Council a most desirable thing.—( Hear, hear.) What would be the inference naturally drawn from the va rious sentiments uttered by these and other Members of the llou3e? Why, that after a little coy, reluctant, amorous delay, the Ministry would yield itself to the vigorous pursuit of the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) What would be the consequence of an elective Council? He much rejoiced to see in his place on this occasion his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Coventry (Mr. E. Ellice.) No man had a greater know ledge, from long experience of the affairs of this province, than the Right Hon. Gentleman ; and no one could give a sounder opinion as to what would be the effect of the proposed measure on the province.—( Hear, hear.) He therefore trusted the Right Hon. Member would favour the House and the public with his candid opiniori as to the adequacy, the wisdom, and the efficiency of the Noble Lord's proposition. The great body of British settlers in Lower Canada, who went out on the faith of finding there a copy of their free national institutions, of enjoying their national rights and national laws, were as opposed as the inhabitants of Upper Canada were to any of the innova tions of French Republicanism.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member for Bath told them the other night that the people of this country still retained their dull, stupid, bigotted, ignorant horror of French Republicanism. He ( Lord Stanley) rejoiced in the belief that the Honourable and Learned Member was perfectly correct in his supposition ; and however dull, stupid, bigotted, and igno rant the Honourable Member might think him for saying so, he could assure the Honourable and Learned Member that he shared the feeling. He could never hear without horror the combination of these two words "French Republicanism." The concession of an elective Legislative Council would remove the only check which interposed against the tyrannical power of the dominant majority,—a majority, ho would remark, in numbers only, for in wealth, in education, in enterprise, it was greatly inferior to the minority of 160,000 settlers of British descent. He would venture to say that in six months after the institution of an elective Legislative Council the British popula tion of Lower Canada would have determined that, the protec tion of the mother country being withdrawn from them, they must take measures for protecting themselves.—( Hear.) True they were a numerical minority; but, to increase their strength, they would call in aid from the great body of their compatriots in the upper province, in Nova Scotia, in New Brunswick, and, if need were, the great British family in the United States ; everything in their pow er wou ld b e d one to rescue themselves from th possibility of succumbing to French Re publicans.—( Hear.) What said the Commissioners on this subject ? They looked to the consequences of an Elective Council, and proceeded to remark as follows :—" Turning now to the consequences of an Elective Council, we are not to suppose that the party now so violent in demanding it would sit down in quiet thankfulness and submission if it were granted. It is looked to, we must consider, not as an empty name, but rather as a means towards further ends. Neither are we left entirely in the dark as to what those ends may be. We will not enter upon the field of conjecture as to the various steps which might mark the progress of their demands, but simply point out that two at least have already been announced, which it appears to us, whilst England has a shadow of authority, it must be im possible, because dishonourable, to grant. The first is the re peal of the Tenures Act, without a guarantee for the titles that have been acquired under it ; the second, the abro gation of the Charter of the Land Company." Such would be one of the consequences of an elective Council, and further consequences of scarcely less importance were more than sha dowed forth. And how did the Noble Lord propose to meet this ? The proposed resolutions told them that "in the exist- ing state of toiver Canada it was unadvisable to make the Exeeative Council of that province an elective body, but that it was expedient that measures should be adopted for secur ing to that branch of the Legislature a greater degree of pub lic confidence." Ought they not to know what those con templated measures were before they in the House of Com mons affirmed the resolutions? He would say, let them do what they had been doing from the commencement of this Commission to the end of it ; let them not raise expectations which they never intended to fulfil.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Let them not go on uttering vague words, and doing nothing, for the effect of such a course would be this, and only this—it would weaken the force of a declaration of principle, and give to no human being the power of stating what indeed was the principle they took their stand upon.—(Cries of H tr, hear, hear ) If they desired to surrender Lower Canada, let them do it at once; but if they surrender Lower Canada, they must recollect they surrendered with it Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, and they cast off 150,000 in Lower Canada alone of their British fellow-subjects, who clung to them for protection against a tyrannical majority_ (cheers)—who confided in the faith of the British Parliament, that it would not allow its engagements to them to be violated —who entreated it to allow them to continue in the undis turbed enjoyment of the law and liberties conferred on their ancestors, who themselves did nut claim the power of ty rannising over their. neighbours, but who did claim the privi lege of exercising under the British Crown the privileges of British subjects, and who, if they flung them off—if they • abandoned them to their own resources, were doomed to sink in the wide-spreading democracy of the time.—(Oppo sition cheering.)—Let them not sacrifice their engagements to the prejudice rather than to the sound opinions of a party—he meant the French Canadian population—who had granted to them a Constitution as free as any nation could give to them—whose freedom was limited only by that absolute controul necessary to secure the connection between them and the mother country, but who called those whose inte rests were identical with the interests of the mother country by the name of etrangers, after sixty years' habitation with them. The French Canadians lived under the lightest taxa tion of any people on eerth ; their only security for the absolute laws and feudal customs to which they clung was in the pro- • testing power of this empire. If that protection were re moved, in a short time would follow the utter destruction of their nationality, which would be merged in one great, abso lute, native-American Republic. (The Noble Lord, on re suming his seat, was very enthusiastically cheered by the Op position Members.) Lord 110 WICK confessed he had never heard any speech of his Noble Friend with greater pain than he had heard that which he had just concluded. It was much to be regretted it should go forth to the people of Canada that a person who had deservedly so much - weight and iufluence and authority in this House and •in the country, had held language so com pletely the reverse of conciliatory, and conceived in so arbi trary a spirit.--(Cheers.) That such an individual should recommend measures of the arbitrary character of those re commended by his Noble Friend, he regretted deeply, and more especially for the sake of his Noble Friend himself.— ( Opposition laugh, and Ministerial cheers.) But it was some consolation to him for the pain he felt at this speech, that he trusted it would act in some degree as an antidote to the very florid speech of the Hon. Member for Bath. His Noble Friend began his speech by expressing a hope that there would be an almost unanimous expression of opinion on the part of the House in the coming division ; but towards the close of * his speech he Teemed to have for gotten his own recommendation, inasmuch as he brought forward arguments which, if goad for anything, were good for this, that the House should not approve of the resolutions before it.—( Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend had made some remarks ea the dispatch of' Lord Glenelg, in answer to one from the present Governor of Lower Canada, after attempts had been made in vain to obtain supplies in' 1836; and his Noble Friend had commented with great severity on the expression in that dispatch, is which Lord Glenelg had stated that it was not desirable immediately to propose any measure in relation to the matter to Parliament. That Noble Lord had said it might be well to make another trial with the House of Assem bly, and wait to receive the answer. His Noble Friend ob served it might be well for Lord Glenelg, who was not per sonally suffering, to give this answer, but it was cruel, it was merciless to those who were exposed in the colony, by the course taken by the House of Assembly, to the greatest dis- , tress. His Hon. Friend ought surely, before he made such an observation, to have acquainted himself with the facts of the case, which he might have obtained from the dispatches lying on the table of the House. If he had consulted them, he would • have seen that Lord Glenelg did not leave the judges and other official persons who were entitled to salary without as sistance or resources ; so far from doing so, in writing his dis patch he told the Governor to apply to the relief of the press ing necessity of those persons the funds arisin g from the ordi nary territo r i a l an d occas i ona l revenue, to be placed at the disposal of the Treasury, in the event of a successful termi nation of .the negciation with France. The sum to be so appropriated was 30,0001., equal to one year's salary of the • judges and others; and having it in his power in this way to meet part of the distress of his Majesty's servants, he de layed till the latest period an application to this House.— (Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend asked how came there to be this delay on the part of those members of the Go vernment who were members of the Cabinet in 1834. Now he thought his Noble Friend was taking a course not per fectly consistent with usage in referring in a debate in that House to Cabinet proceedings. He was not in the Cabinet at that time, and he therefore could not under take to say what course was taken ; but he might observe that it was not a necessary conclusion that the Cabinet was unanimous with respect to the bringing in of the Bill to which his Noble Friend had referred. If the Cabinet was unani mous, he knew the weight which the authority of his - Noble Friend was likely to po§sess. His Noble Friend, however, was aware that if that measure had been persevered in, he should have resigned the..tiffice he held. He was aware also, that the Cabinet o that dray,; in agreeing to that measure, did not agree to it alone. Ilis Noble Friend had leave to bring in the Bill, but with this condition, that he should at the same time move for a Committee, to which should be referred all the questions involved in the Canadian differences ; and with this further condition, that his Noble Friend shonld not make his motion till some proceeding had taken place in that country. It had been said there were no such conditions ; but he appealed to the Hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Labouelicre) and to his Hon. Friend the Member- for Bath (Mr. Roebuck), and to the Noble Lord himself, to confirm time correctness of the statement he was now about to make. What he said was, that in that country, on two separate days—before the time a hen Iris Noble Friend resigned his situation in the Govern ment—on two separate days notice was given of an inten tien to take the sense of the Committee as to the propriety of the Bill suspending the Act of 1831. 11e had a written record of what took place on that occasion. On two days notice was given of the intention to bring that subject under tire consideration of the Committee, and on both those days, from different causes, that intended discussion was post poned. So much for the delays that had taken place, and the want of entire conformity on the part of those members of the present Government who were members of the Cabioct of 18J4. He came now to that more serious ciliation the 1 . Noble Lord had raised as to the propriety of the measure before the House. Hi s Noble Friend told them that this was no time for half measures ; that they must take one course or the other. This was not a question of whether he would support his Majesty's Government or the Honourable Member for Bath. He had no hesitation as to that. He admitted that they must bring forward some mea sure to overcome the opposition of the House of As sembly, but he contended that the course proposed was wrong, because it was inefficient. There were two mea sures which might be adopted, if they . would not concede all that was demanded of them. There was that line of policy which his Majesty's Government recommended, and there was the stronger course recommended by his Noble Friend himself. His Noble Friend complained that the re solutions were not sufficiently explanatory; he wished his Noble Friend had described a little more fully what his course of policy would be. The Noble Lord said they must be pre pared to meet the continued hostility of the House of Assem bly of Lower Canada, and that being the case, he would have taken his stand on the Legislative Council as it now existed, and would have proposed the very measure which he would have brought forward in 1834—he would have come forward with a measure for the repeal of the Act of 1831. Would that course have been successful ? Did his Noble Friend suppose that he could have permanently carried on the Go vernment in the face of the opposition of the House of As sembly by the means he proposed ? Ilia Noble Friend had quoted several passages from the Report of the Commis sioners. He had quoted, amongst others, from Sir G. Gipps, who, after recommending the very measure to which his Noble Friend had adverted, thus stated what his hopes were of its suc cess--" With respect to the working of the measure, which is default of any other we have been forced to recommend, I cannot entertain the hope that, unless combined with others of a very firm and judicious, but at the same time healing character, it will prove either efficacious or saf,.. The Assem bly, by the suspension of the Act 1 and 2 Will. IV., will be deprived, it is true, of a portion of its power, but it will still remain in possession of ample means of thwarting the Govern ment, and these means we may expect to see it exert with an unscrupulous hostility. The suspension of this Act is, more over, the measure which they expect, for they had due notice of it in 1834, and for / which they, to a certain extent, are pre pared. The Assembly, even when deprived of the revenues of the 14th George ILI., will retain its control over funds nearly twice as great as those in the hands of the Executive ; and although the House may not have power to dispose of them at its discretion, it will ,at any rate be able to lock them up, and especially to prevent the application of them to any purpose favourable to the Government or to the in terests of the British party. It may also refuse to pass Bills required by the commercial interest, such, for instance, as Bills for the renewal of the Charters of the Quebec and Montreal Banks, both of which will expire in July, 1837. When I consider, therefore, the bitter hostility, or rather fury, with which the Assembly will be animated against the British Government, and against British interests ; the invectives which, under the direction of its practised leaders, it will pour forth against England; the power it will possess of spreading disaffection within the province, and inviting inter ference from without, I am at a loss to imagine how the Go vernment can be carried on with advantage, and I cannot help fearing that we shall ultimately be driven to abandon the coun try with all the shame of failure upon us, or to maintain it at a cost infinitely beyond its value." This was the testimony of one of the very persons by whom the measures of his Noble Friend were recommended, and the House saw what were his hopes of success. With reference t o th e N o bl e L or d' s com plaint, lie was not prepared to say that any mode of carrying on the Government under a popular constitution could be de vised in which a permanent resistance to the popular branch of the Legislature could be maintained ; he believed that with re gard to every nation such a proposition was an absurdity in itself. He could not imagine that any man could look forward to the prosecution of such an attempt ; he still most earnestly clung to the hope of an accommodation with the House of Assembly and the people of Lower Canada. What his Noble Friend proposed was to throw away all hopes of conciliation ; openly, and without a chance of accommodation, he would come to issue with the House of Assembly. How would he work a popular Government in Canada, with that feeling which the course he recommended would excite against it ? He would, looking to the means of carrying on the Government, relieve the executive officers and the, judicial officers from the pressure that was now on them ; while at the same time he would say to the people of Canada, he was willing to enter into an accommodation with them—to agree to what would be fair terms with them, and to do that which would be just and equi table to all parties.—( Hear.) That was, he declar ed, the prin ciple of policy on which the Government was prepared to act. He did not deny that success might not be attained by the Go vernment. It was far from him to say that such a line of po licy must certainly be successful. Their measures might fail —they might not be able to attain'the object that they had in view; and should all their efforts be attended with an un fortunate result, what was the alternative? Why, they might still take the course which his Noble Friend had proposed— ( Cheers)—or they might even adopt still stronger measures if necessary. —(Hear.) And if all attempts at conciliation failed, then the Legislature would have to determine between one of two things. They might determine upon governing Canada upon principles different from the Act of 1791, or they might withdraw their protection from that colony. He would not disguise that the alternative was of a fearful de scription. It was an alternative to which he trusted and be. lieved they would never be driven.—( Hear, hear.) The al ternative was bad for all parties, and One that, in his judgment, could not with calmness be contemplated.—( Hear.) But then his Noble Friend said that they ought to take their stand in support of the Legislative Council as it now existed. His Noble Friend, too, had condemned the expressions used by his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Taunton, and h e had particularly condemned his reference to the speech of Mr. Fox in 1791, and he had also asked them what th cy meant by the expression used in the resolutions with respect to the Legislative Council. Ho at once asked, in reply to such observations, was it possible to take as their ground of defence the Legislative Council as it now stood ? He asked his Noble Friend whether he had given an attentive considera- tion to the passages in the general report adverting to that Council, which even in its origin was admitted to be but an experiment ? It was stated distinctly in the report that the system of nomination adopted with respect to that Council was a vicious one, and that it afforded neither security to the Throne nor confidence to the people. It was stated, too, by the Commissioners, that even during their own residence in Canada the Council had rejected Bills which were of great public good—(Hear, hear)—and it was clear, from their experience of the Elective Council, that it was not quite suited to the Canadians.—( Hear.) Why, then, in the face of the report of their Commissioners—of Commissioners, too, of their own nomination, was it possible for them to de clare that the Legislative Council, as at present constituted, was such that, under no circumstances, it was to be departed from.—(Hear, hear.) Was it not even avowed by Mr. Pitt that it was an experiment even at the time that it was adopted ? ,Was not his Noble Friend aware that its adoption was a de viation from the whole of the policy adopted with respect to their colonies? Was not his Noble Friend aware that a Council such as it was, in Upper and Lower - Canada never before existed in the British colonies? It never before ex isted, and never since hail existed.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. Pitt had unfortunately departed from the usual form adopted with respect to other colonies. There was nothing like it in Nova Scotia, in New Brunswick, in Jamaica, or in the West India islands. In all there there was to be found a council diffe- rent from that which existed in Canada. The Canadian Council did not represent the Crown, nor was it elected by the people-4 Hear)---and it was one over whom there was no spe cies of control whatever. It appeared to him that this was the original fault, and to him it appeared to be a great fault indeed. But now, as to making the Council elective, if, for the reasons assigned by the Commissioners, they were for refusing the change that was proposed, it did not follow that because they were not prepared to make the Council clec- tive, that therefore they were to maintain it precisely in its pre sent condition.—( Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend had said, that the words contained in their resolution, referring to this point, were very vague—that they talked of the Legislative Council having more of the public confidence than it now possessed. He now bogged to inform his Noble Friend—as it had been already mentioned by his Noble Friend ( Lord J. Russell) in introducing this subject that the resolutions pro posed were to be the groundwork of a Bill—that an Act of Parliament was necessary to carry into effect the views of the Government, and iii that Act of Parliament certain im provements were proposed to be introduced with respect to the constitution of the Legislative Council. They should prepare to remove from the Legislative Council those who were guilty of offences in certain circumstances—that Legis lative CouneiHors should have the power of resigning; anti certainly, beyond that, security would be afforded for having a more judicious choice of Members of the Council. It was impossible to devise means for giving complete security for a satisfactory choice of the Members of the Council. But more than that he would say, that if a plan could . be devised such as would be satisfactory to the people of that province —if any mode could be devised of practically improving the constitution of that council—in such an improvement he for one would be most happy to agree.—(Cheers.) In all free countries the institutions ought to be such as were calculated to produce the most good to the great body of the intelligent classes.. If they attempted to support an d ma i nta i n any other—no matter what might be the aid they should obtain, - or the power they could command—although tbzy might for a shorter or a longer period prolong the cont.: ; st, still they might depend upon it that, sooner or later, they would be defeated.—(Cheers.) Ile for one never would say to the peo ple of Canada that where a necessary improvement was re quired to that necessary improvement he would never consent. lie trusted that the Parliament and, the country never would adopt that mode of dealing with Canakin..—( Hear, hear, hear.) Such were the grounds upon which the policy of the Govern ment rested, and upon that he hoped it would rest. The Hon. and Learned Member for Bath told then i that it was quite in vain to look for accommodation. Even if h i were so convinced, still he thought that the attempt ought to he made before they tame to the last resort. —(Hear. ) Ile knew,. that from circunr,canees, it was impossible for his Noble Friend i.e. Flo all that he v;as requested to do : but still he said that even what: he did do wr,s attended with very great and benescial effects. For -previous!v to 1831, it was not merely the French Canadians that forme , the party of Mr. Papineau, but there was also joined with tlry.o a strong and a stre nuous opposition of many persona in that. , zountry of great weight, influence, and authority, who were s _sow to ha- found ranged amongst the ranks of the supporter*. of Government.—(Hear.) Amongst others, he might mention. Mr. Neilson. Mr. Neil son, who had with regard to the, proposed respecting the finances of Canada given it his opposition, was found, since the concessions made by Lord GAtieri, Ali, to be one of the supporters of the Government. If that t!ourse, of permanently carried into efket, the policy were consistently and y might overcome the opposition which they had to encounter, and put an end to all those unfortu nate divisions that now exi ned. _ ( , , i - d was required was not lea: hear.) If already all that done, he regr skit In his office whatever influence ll ' 4 r 5 Q 44 94 yes 6 A N to it, iute effect a cowls, of conciliation ; and if he were in the same situation still, he would exercise his influence in the same direction. There was not ore step that at that time had been adopted whi th he now lamented, and he did hope that the House would make one more attempt rt conciliation. Such was the course of policy h recommended and was prepared to adopt. He recommended th 'in to pars te a tem perate and moderate course, until they were enabled to pu . au end to all these unfortunate and miserable dispute ..—(Cleers. ) Mr. CRESSETT PELHAM saw theMin - stry w ere determin to pursue a course of policy to which he, as a lover of the C nsti tution, never could agree. Mr. LEADER had a few observations to make upon the speech delivered by the Noble Lord the Member for North Laneashir. That Noble Lord ought to have remembered shat a Minister of the Crown had said in the last century, when he proposed for the consideration of the House measures to be applied to these North , American provinces. "He hoped," he said, " that they wou'd enter into the discussion deliberately and dispassionately, and have no recourse to violent language"—(Hear, hear) —that they wool t not have anything of the wain - locum incendia." If the Noble Lord had remembered the wise advice of Lord North, he would have abstained from the violent, inflammatory, and insulting language he had used towards the Canadians.—(Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) He thanked the Noble Lord for that speech— violent and insulting as it was. It would, he believed, have the game effect upon the people of Canada which the speech of another Nob'e Lord had upon the people of Ireland —(Cheers. ) The one had insulted the Canadians, as the other had insulted t he Irish people.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord had the distinction being calied the evil genius of Ireland ; he might now acid to the ui env!able title-of being called the evil genius of Canada. Mr. ROEBUCK wanted to know if the House had come. to the &termination of proceeding with the resolution without having before them the evidence given in 1834? He must have an an swer to-that question befom they proceeded to the next resolu tion. He would again ask the Committee whether they would, , decide on this question without having the entire of the evidence before them ? The Committee then divided, when the numbers were— For the original motion For the amendment 66 Majority —262 Sir G. GREY said that after ibis division he trusted no further opposition would be thrown in the way of the views of Government on t'iis subject. Mr. ROEBUCK said that a direct appeal having been made to him by the Noble Lord opposite, in reference to the evidence of the Committee on the affairs of Canada, upon which he believed this question greatly depended, he felt called upon to demand the publication of that evidence. The Hon. Baronet, alluding to the large, the overwhelming majority by which the Ministerial mea sure had been carried to-night, expressed a hope that no further op position would be made-to it. He begged the Hon. Baronet to re collect that he (Mr. Roebuck) went out in as small a minority on the Irish Coercion Bill. Mr. ROBINSON, as a Member of the Committee in question, begged to state why lie was opposed to the publication of the evi dmiceadduced before it ; namely, that it was an ex-parte statement- The inquiry of the Committee was cut short when the Noble Lord at the hea l of the department went out of office ; the evidence up to that period had been all on one side of the question, there not having been time to call the evidence on the other side. Mr. HUME, without any reference to that evidence, wished to a k the Hon. Baronet the Under Secretary for the Colonial De partment what measures Government were about to adopt in pur suance of these resolutions ? Sir G. GREY said, that if the Hon. Member could not gather the information he called for from the speeches which had been made on the subject by the Noble Lord the Home Secretary, the Noble Lord the Secretary of War, by himself, 4nd others in the course of this debate, he (Sir G. Grey) really was at. a lo ss t o throw further light upon the subject. The Hon. Baronet then briefly repeated a few of the beads of the Ministerial views on the s abject. HUME wished to know how the responsibility of the House, of Assembly was to be ensured ? He believed the measures men- , tioned by the Hon, Und er S ecre t ary would be quite futile. The CHAIRMAN then read the fourth resolution. Mr. ROEBUCK moved that the Chairman report progress. The gallery was then cleared for a division, when the nurseoers were— Fur reporting progress... ......... 39 Against it Majority. ........ ....-•• -248 - - • • - • • • Mr. ROEBUCK asked what objection there could possibly be to grant the papers at once, and defer any further discussion till they were printed and in the hands of Members? The CHANCELLOR of the'EXCHEQUER said there was every disposition on the part of Government to give the fullest information that the Honourable Member for Bath could re quire. They were ready to produce every public document irs existence, but the House would recollect, that when the pa pers relating to the question were laid on the table, the Ho nourable Member for B a th did no t g ive th e slightest inti mation that more evidence Would be required, and that he only 'that night announced that the evidence taken before the Committee in 1834 was necessary to make good his case. He did not. anticipate any such question, and he considered it ono of mere delay, and nothing but delay. He would, however, state that before the House rose that night he would move for the pro duction of these papers, and to-morrow they would be on the table of the House. The original papers were destroyed when the Houses of Parliament were burned down ; but many 3lembers were in possession of documents unless they had parted with them. He had his own minutes of evidence, and was ready to lay them on the table. Mr. HARVEY considered the papers were necessary in order to enable Hon. Gentlemen to form a correct judgment on the ques tion. He was surprised to hear the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that there was nothing in these papers that the House could. require. He shoul I have understood that that Committee had been appointed as a jury to judge and decide the merits of the question ; but so little were these papers known, that he had never heard of them till that night, and they might as well pass all the resolutions at once as agree to the proposition, that it was inexpedient to sus pend the proceedings till the papers were produced. file resolution stated that it was inexpedient to grant an Elective Council. It in fact admitted the principle, though it was only to be postponed; and he would ask Members if the House were to determine a question of peace or war on the pica of expediency? For his part, he would wait, if it were to six o clock, till they got that evidence, and every thing necessary for the prop'r discussion of the question. Mr. B ROT HEATON moved the adjournment of the House. Mr. HUME could not see what reason there was for refusi to suspend proceedings till the papers were produced. The Go vernment could take up the Irish Tithe Bill or sonic other measure in the meat:time. .• Mr. HARDY would put it to the Hon. Member for Bath, after he had heard it stated by members of the Committee that a great deal of ex-parte evidence was given before the Committee, whether he would preis for the production of the papers. Mr. WARD was the last man who would throw out obstacles in the Way of any public proceeding merely with reference to form ; but in so important a matter as this he thought it essential that all evidence that could be procured should be laid before the House. Lord STANLEY had not rested his argument on any evidence except that contained in the Report of the Commissioners. The chief object which he had in view in wishing for the production of the evidence in question was to justify the conduct. of the Govern ment with which he (Lord Stanley) had been connected. Mr. ROEBUCK observed that one allegation against the Ca nadian people was, that they had been guilty of a breach of faith. The evidence he wished for would show that this was a eoniplote misunderstanding, and that if there had been any stipulation on the part of the Canadian people they had more than fulfilled it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed that if the Honourable Member for Bath were assured that the evidence would be on the table to-morrow, it was unreasonable, on his part, to ask the House to suspend their decision on the question before them. Mr. P. STEWART should suggest to the Right Honourable Gentleman the expediency of some delay until the production of the evidence. Mr. ROEBUCK had no objection to agree to the resolution un der the consideration of the Committee if it were understood that any further proceeding should be delayed until the production of the evidence. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in order to show that he had not the slightest wish to withhold tha evidence, was ready to acquiesce in - the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bath. Mr. AGLIONBY professed himself at a loss to understand this course of proceeding.—( Hear, hear, hear.) When it became ma nifest, from the speech of the Noble Lord opposite, that the evi dente in question was necessary, the Hon. Member for Bath urged the postponement of the proceeding until the production of that evidence. if the evidence was allowed to be necessary now, it was necessary before they came to the discussion on the resolutions. However, he was in the hands of the Hon. Member for Bath. Mr. ROEBUCK observed that, morally, the resolution already passed would be in abeyance until the whole had been agreed. to. Lord SANDON could not consent to the proposed compromise. He could not consent that the resolutions should be considered iu abeyance. The CHANCELLOR 'of the EXCHEQUER was at a loss to understand how the Noble Lord could apply the term compromise to what had fallen from him. , Neither the Hon. Member for Bath nor himself had said any thing about agreeing to the resolutions pro forma. Lord SANDON said that the reason of his objection was, that the Hon. Member for Bath had put the matter on this issue— namely, that the whole question should be hung up in suspense-- that it should be in abeyance. Lord HOWICK contended that in the eyes both of the Cana dian and of the English public, the first division was virtually a settlement of the question. He understood the present propose-.. tired to be, that the first resolution having been passed, the re-e mainder shorild be postponed until the production of the evidence. In his opinion, certainly, that evidence was of little importawee; for they knew from experience that few Hon., Members would read it. Ile thought, however, that it would Ira more convenient to all parties to agree to the present repositioe t . Mr. G. F. YOUNG shou/et be sor r y to misinterpret the Hon. and Learned Member for Beth ; but if he understood him rightly, he understocel him to offer a compromise on the point at issue (be cause the word " compromise" sees used), and then, he added, let their resolution be taken pro forma. He (Mr. Young) thought he had lima tir e lion. and Learned Gentleman use those words, and that it wee upon those words the Chancellor of the Exchequer closed with 'the proposition. If the terms compromise anti pro .0 48,2 mlte used, the Right Hon. Gentleman must have sub-,. mitted. this question in a way which he could not inteeid. Tne CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER nipealed to Haas Gentlemen around him and opposite to him. whether any suet proposition was ever made by him as that of sesating the resolutions pro forma ? The proposition was matte br, his lion. Friend the Member for Lancaster (Mr. P. M. Stows' t). Mr. ROBINSON wished to ask his najesty's Government, and all the Members of that House--(A 'eaugh)—whether it was in tended to go forth to the British publi e and to the people of Canada, sith the Report of the Commis that they were not in, a conditeoe—y sioners before thew., and deer two nights' debate—to go on, with out referring to certain ev . idenen which was purely ex part; and. \glitch was never intended to be made public. If the facts whiche they were already in eioesession of in this case were not sufficiene e 1 the Goverment hted better withdraw their resolutions altogethta. He was convinced that this proceeding on the part of the Hon. and Learned Member for Beth was a mere pretext for delay. The Hcme. and Learned Member for Bath had been +Ate first to quote the evidence in question, and not the Noble T -..Ord (Stanley). He railed this, in the sense in which the Hon. Member for Bath un derstood it, and in the sense in whiel it would be understood out of doors, an unworthy compromise, He protested against such a pro ceeding on the part of the cha':acter and dignity of that Howe. The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER—The Hon. Gentleman the Member f or Worcester spoke of an unworthy Com promise, arid of the eff' s et which this debate would have in Cana/le lie (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) said that in reference tee this debate, and t'., e effect which it would have on the minds of the people of Canaria, that he wished for the production of th.e i evi:- deuce requireet ; because if this resolution were to be aifirines_ (and he dl's not deny the effect it might have on popisler. feel ing in Genatia), he wished only to justify the line whit Learned. i 'M e cts he i 0 vernment were called upon to pursue; but if the Hog,, ember for Bath, or any one else, should sa y 1 (Aticil which had keen referred to irerlebate he_ .,! ‘l peen ' deirianded wet