The Sun. — London, England, 1812-06-12 00:00:00

-)-Aion which , r)n^97ed in the Virninistvation to 1 21,a t inahit've qyste,n 3n they had 10 - ; acted 1---n2ct to tlie Roin^n Ntholics, bu: stated it to be hisintection to give them his as.sista any' support, uninfluenced by , any pi- yate VANSITTART adverted to the conduct of- S.)vereign on' a . former occasion, when the interfeved with his, right to appoint his iiiri.:. , ,terfp:„.,..b-) . s:esfifo , ing flint they had : ''a right, to , cd-,;"Z;:•1 . 1;S - IIA.i i i.qty al .: This ;esolu t jolt <. as Ctlire to On tite '2 I st.of IkTare,h, and on the -24th, the - iin§.k4slit.isoisteci tile...ParliaMcnt; to take. of4lepfzonle on tre subject, a resoluti-, , on wiisf-fuli . y...iustified'Aly the event. Tie , fircrt•do.bettei% than react part of an , address -fi , t)R} :Berks .- Wife Votettont l :at occasion, senti ituihrittlihrst nut4ion . l2 ielitintents.whieh . . he-yet .thetrproceed i:eU Tb' 4, .- an. Address approving-of 411 . 4 - ".•tedrft-ittteftit...i I tight thitSoverein,pOs,sesses . Alinisttrs, and deprecating any trer.:;di itpo that right.- • Such" attempts efieottlli9,4ll;;Wouid eortukna,tlie Government of his poutitry:irorn'the to• the - worst -of alt.fro yernmei•cies"-s"-it Would - take -from us a limited -3\l6tarA,-iy;'and give :us in its _plate a turbulent De 1110 ' - TuitToss; lamented -those circumstances. 'which bad withlield - from the services of the counT_ try,. the .. .reat,,talerits of• the ru ! ght. .Honourable Lords - Ut2y and 'Grenville. The lion. Baronet maintained that :the prerogative. of the Crown . would be ittrzendered into the hands;-of. an oli garchy, if the Household Officers were to be plat,. edentirely.at the disposal- of the Ministers. At the same tine be meantnothing•.invidious against the characterS of 'the two Noble Lords who were the objects of -the late proposals for forming an extended Administration in -conformity with the • vote-of this House. With respect to the princi ples :upon .which art -Administration.should act at. the present crisis, be could wit avoid observing th , A , one 'of the topics upon which the discussion.. -witil those. Noble. Lords proceeded,, namely—the. Orders in Council, as a:preliminary to the accept ance of office ; was-ofibetitmot.t.importance. In (minion; if - those.. Orders wexe. , :ntit repealed, . this•countty - would in a-few months be in a. dread.- --ful.situatioo, in--a , situation little short of .a. civil. Aintr..: As to - the ,Conduct of the Marquis Wellesley, the aw?s-..no:thing in that conduct to excite Much _had* betn said of " personal animoities;!'. but he hselieved,, that as far as re-. ..spected• Abe communication: between. the.- Noble Mar cis. and •the_. two :Noble LortlS-, there w:is apersong ihdisposition in the tWo , Noble Lords to :will the']Ncble - Marquis; and at fleti TxtorrtentA is•.the-preirent, be thought - per-, .s o nhl 'feeling s-otight to ha - cf •nothing • to: - do with patiltc inenv:The sAlvation of their country.shotild , -be‘ , -their 6bject.;.;'lltChoyiett, that notwith standing whathad , paSsed; the - country - would still :hays the - . services 4f- the . Noble- Marquis and the It is lit lion—Oentleinam '(Mr.' Canniing)..' As to the measures 'which thight:heneeessary.to - be pur sued;; if-the war in the. Peninsula was to be carried on, be .was for carrying-it forward-on ass extended • Me: D. GiDDY observed, that when the Address wrai voted,die.WaS one of .those who concurred in opinion with the 'Member for Yorkshire, and on • the presP,nt occasion; when there was most assur edly a great sensation excited in the country in Consequence of thatvote, it became the House to exercise the trl!.nscendant power with which they were in' ested . with discretion. ‘lle had'heard fraai some Gentlemen; • that there Avere extreme cases when it was necessary , to interpose be tween the Crown and the Government,' and by_a vote of Parliament prevent the thavernment; of the country from being placed in the hands • *holly of the Crown.' There could not, -however, be a more inconvenient mode' of proceeding than-in fol lowing up an extreme case of the -kinit alluded to, by putting a negative On the prerogative . of the Crown. It bad • been said that this House had came to a vote upon the necessity for forming an efficient . AdministtatiOn upon an extended scale. Undoubtedly they had so done, but under what circumstance a notice of the motion had been only-given the preceding day. At that time an opinion was'entertained, that the delay of a few minutes in coming to-the vote, would have given a; majority against the motion. If',Gentlemenad -vetted to what passed on the same evening . Shortly" after- the division,. they mast be sati.s fled; that such would 'have been the fact. if, !,.--lowever, extreme Cases were to be entertained, very dictation to the Head of the Executive ' 'wzis in effeettaking the whole of the Government .intahandslof Parliament. • But the House would recollect, - that though one bransh of the Legisla • ture•lnd , expressed an opinion upon the subject, ' the other. had. not expressed any opinion at all they had not stated their disapprobation of the - Ministry. Was this House then to adopt the lan . guage • of contront? A Noble Lord had put the .. question on a ninth better ground for discussion than the Mover Of the Address. He deprecated the conduct which brought before the public the •proccedings in the. negociations for forming an extended Administration, as highly inexpedient, and on other occasions as tending to embarrass the Government. Noi was he aware how those disens!;ions could have been put forth without in - :fringing' the oath, which some of the parties had ta ken, as Privy Counsellors:, which oath of course precluded them from divulging.. any thing which passed between their Royal Master and them siolple question now under consi 7 • th ration was; whether the present Ministers could be safely trusted to manage- the affairs of the Se ate - And in deciding upon that question, the , - Noule Lord had contended, that a rot. of this House-bail driven them from office in 1808, and therefore they were:not competent to manage the aei , ources of tli . country, to carry on the war, and wield thcenergieS of the State in this moment of peril-and of difficulty. But word:+t , ask the . /.:oole Lord, whether it was not lair to compare this coniitry with other 'Countries, which ever Aince the time alluded to, had been wrested from , the domination of the lawful Sovereigns. Eng b ad. had, under the Administration decried by the Noble Lord, defended the cause of the -Fenin stile with credit to herself ? and if it was proper . , must have peen incurred, for great exertioni*tre c-I'led for. The' onourabletientleman declared,. that he should not vote either for the. Address ."of thelV - ?fiL Gentleman, nor the .Amendment of lip the interference off ; .. 'Parliament incompatible With the principles milpa which he had generally acted. ,At the same-time, he did not mean to say-that he would•oppose . any Address which contained expressions that to Lim appeared Unobjectionable. He expressed his en tire confiAehee in the'character of Lord Moira, as • a man of the strictest integrity and most unble-- mished reputation's • Mr. TtosE differed in opinion from the Hon. Baronet, in, hiS view of an oligarchy, for he thought that if the last' proposal 'of the Noble Lordigoira had . been accepted, 'namely, of unre-• stricted power, then,. indeed, the Councils of the State would have been surrendered into the hands of a . desperate . and ihnoxibus Oligarchy. Mini sters were respoosible for that power: The lion. Gentleman svho,moved the Address had said no thing about secret influence, but he could not deny that he' bad no - theard of such influence—it had reduced America, and was now to be formed in a' Cabinet Lee-rounded by a Cabinet of another de scription. It was undoubtedly the prerOgatiee of the Crown to apßoint the Ministers, but was it not the duty of this House - to appeal , egainSt . ap pointments which were not for the benefit of the State.? The present Ministers had twice rain= quislied their offices, confessing thereby their in capacity—they were the relics of the Pitt Admi nistration, the ramp of tile;. runip of that Govern ment. With respect to the - Address, he did not expect the Hon. Gentleman would have thrown cold water upon his former Address,-by moving such .an Address as the present. Bethought. the House would relinquish their clut,C.,: if they did not follow the line prescribed in the original vote. Mr.. JOHNSTONE and Me. GRATTAN rose at the same time : the call for Ali Grattan was univer sal, hut the former caught the Speaker's eye.---s. The Honourable Gentleman, was anxious to es:- , plain his. sentiments, though. happy to hear the eloquence of the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite.. The Sovereign, he .observed, had a clear, acknowledged, and undisputeCLri), - lit . to no minate the Household—that was recognized from the .Revolution downsvards,, and this he. would -shew i re utter contradiction to the doctrine main tained- by the Honourable Gentleman who had as sumed, that when the Officers of .the Honiehold were appointed .by the Sovereign, the reign • of secret influence begin to exist, . That - Was a doe :which he thought, had. been. long exploded; and which nonelmt the most vulgae would have 'again broaelied. : The- .cry . was'. generally raised by a • party, wherever a combination of talents were. .ealied-intosthe,serVice Of,the Sovereign. ' It was :scesehen I s ola 13iite was about the Royal Person, -:anti sight-.has more . weight, when it was re; 'collected that his early connection with his. Ma jesty led to such a supposition.- If it ever did exist e that Nobleman might' be, charged with it ; ;hat what was "the fact ; , all the letters which - he published to the closea'his life completely con- . .tradieted the charge ; for.' he coMplained• - of the neglect.-of the Court, and Was' it likely that he would .have been neglected ?TiThe. cry followed ,the steps ofMr. Pitt and LtsrdGrenville, when they came into power ; and those Ministers knew that it was a . merc cry; that it really had no existence s _ but that it was the cry. of those Who were disap-, pointed -of place and of poVeer,;-41e would read a, list of the various Offices of the Household from the Revolution to the present time. :In looking over that list, it would be seen that if matter of complaint arose as to the influence they possessed, that complaint was seldom if ever followed by a change of the Officers, when - anew Ministry came. into power. In .commencing with the names he found the Duke of Ormond Lord Chamberlain from 1660 to the Restoration in 1688 s. then the Duke of Devonshire was appointed, and he held. the office till 1707. Passing over some interme diate appointments, he found, that in 1724, the Dule' of -Grafton was appointed,. and continued in office till 1757, a period of thirty-two years,. amidst all those changes and various political cols flicts. which agitated the country, particularly in Sir Robert Walpole's administration. The office was then considered not to be one in which much, Of political bias was infused. The Lord Steward of the Household, and the Master of the, Horse were similarly circumstanced in the,Reign of King William s the Master of the Horse' was continued during the whole of it. He now came to the pre sent reign, as he did not_seish to detain the House with going through the list, and he found, that in 1761, Lord Talbot was appointed Lord Steward of the Household, which office he filled till 1781.;. during that interval political conflicts were as warm as at any period, and as much zeal was 'shewn by parties. The Duke -of, Montagu was made Master of the Horse from 1781 t o 1790.,—, Bat these appointments were acquiesced. in with out cow aint, during all - the political,: squabbles which then took place, and were not; called into question, from motives Of delicacy , a n d a conviction that the offices were distinct from political consider ations. What happened in 1782. At that period Lord North was compelled to retire, and from attention to the Sovereign's feelings, the nomina tion of one Member of the old Government was conceded to the Sovereign—for the Chancellor; Lord Thurlow, was allowed to remain in the Ca binet. The divisions and parties which succeeded the secession of Lord North, at the head of which were the Marquis of Rockingham and se Earl of Shelburne, made no objection to the , selection of the Sovereign. lf, therefore, - the Chancellor was then suffered to remain, delicacy on the present -occasion night be attended to—at least it was re quired. What, however, was the conduct of the Gentlemen opposite ? Disappointed of the direc tion of the Councils-of the State, the proclamation of secretinfluence was .soutded from a quarter, which, if founded in truth, fUrnished reflection on ;the, Esevereign himself. If those to whom the' communications were made for coming into power possessed in reality that love' for country for which he (Mr. J.) had given them credit; they, as true patriots, would have accepted office, an d h a v e en deavoured to eshieve for their country those' bless ings which they coasidered -*ere necessary. - The Hon. Gentleman wss prepared to support any Ad ministration, having for its object the good of the . es. ;..slined to sunnort Lord Moira as Premier, and Mr. Whitbread as Chancel lor of the Exchequer; for aniongthe schemes which had run in his head in respect to the' formation of an efficient Administration, that was one which appeared to him as feasible, and likely to be ul timately bene6cial to'the 'conntsS. But it seemed that the, Gents. opposite were not fond of coati:- tions: The question was, whether tins House was deter Mined to fotce them into power an,l give them the- whole -Con:trout ? He was prepared ,to admit, that there was a seeming inconsistency in some Gentlemen coming back to office ; but if he could see any thing better for the ,country, he would..most readily adopt it ) if, not he should give his support to the present Administration. He could not think so meanly of them as other Gentlemen: Had not the Government re ceived an accesssion of strength in .my Lord Sid mouth ? Was he not_ a man of integrity' and of talents, courted by Mr:Pitt, nay even by the " dents ?" What was the occasion of the difference which the Noble Lord - had with Mr. Pitt, and which led to the resignation ? Why this-- , ths.t be would not, in vulgar language, " go through thicls and thin." He with Mr. Bond fesistedone of tilt most flagrant jobs that ever came - before Parlia ment--the case of the Duke of Athol, and Conse quently resigned. It Was not tree that he was driven front office ignonsinionsty- Ili' that asser tion he was justified by what a relation of his had told hisu—sthe late -Sir W. ridteneys to that re spectable 'man the Noble Lord had .stated as his reasons for quittirig.Office, that he felt he held office only with the unreserved confidence of his :Soiereign, that us this contest he found that,Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox were in unison —ghat if they, shosild draw closer tOgether, be could not retain . thdt confidence, .and he found it necessary to re . . . ttre in the catty stage, of the eontest_ to escape those .difficultieS and evils Which were evidently arising." The merits of the Noble Lord .Were recognized, and were nester more apparent than in the efficient, way in which he got on the taxes. , In 18 0 , upon the appointment of the " Talents," those merits were fairly 'and justly aCknoWledged.. The Admi nistration of the Noble Lord practised self-denial and went out of office in a commendable, manner„, which was not ,to be avoided. The fact was so, but what was the fact with respect to Mr. Fox and' my Lord Grenville ? They were untried ; but whentried, did they 'quit Office with a reputation for abilities as high as before they came into office Did their expeditions to the Dardanelles , to. Egypt,. and to various parts 6f the world, .jUstify the ex:, pectations whichlad,heen previously' entertained of them ? For hiniself, -the Hon.-Gentleman dis- Claimed, all party, spirit ; because, when he found upon any occasion the public voice Was against the Ministers, he followect the *Pipe. of the. public. Now, as to the measures of thesGoverxiinetit, he was one of those who . .never did appsoase'of the Orders in Connell. He ihought that the ailairs of America resented . A critical Aspect, bnt it would be too'int ch toTassanse, that Government would .not takesuch nieasure. as Should restorethy tions of amity with that. Power. As to the finan cial diffieulties under Which the country, ..labours, he had every reliance anion the abilities Anal knowS ledge of his Right Hon. Friend at the head of that department. Ike ..w,.hoWS..Ver, no means of ex trication. from t h e' di ff iculties which surround us, . by any vote of the ,kind adopted some days ago, The Hon. Gentleman concluded with stating his determination to 'support the motion for the Address. .. Mr.GaarraN Sva.s not disposed to trouble • the :Clouse with many observations ; but some remarks having been :made upon the conduct of the two Noble Lords, Grey and Grenville, he thought their situation required very great consideration and forbearance. In the part Which they had taken during the negociations, they appeared to have made every effort for their country, which to their minds seemed consistent with their duty. They . were restrained .from taking office (the love' of office and the love of power not being -predomi nant) from a 'conviction .that they could not be of any service to their country. The House must know that the refusal of office is a crime very few men would be guilty of ; was . an event very seldom:found in the annals of History. Gen tlemen would . recollect, that in accepting office a Minister was not likely to exalt his reputation, unless he possessed the confidence: of his vereign : it was not desirable that. any ; Minister, let his opinions be right or wrong, should be lias ble to have those opinions contronled by :another influence.. In such case ,he had better not accept. of office. The Minister of the 'Crown should have the Confidence: of Parliament and' the confidence of the Kling ;. if he did pot s possess both-4f he: .possessed the - confidence of_, the Parliament alone,' he Would lose the other, and if s the : eonfidence of the Sovereign swas,withheld;therithe _Joss of the. othertnustsfollosv. The 14011Sehotd_liaa certainly neversheen considered, in a Hiqcalpoirst of view, nor. as important ; but if the Noble s Lords, Grey and. 'Grenville, thought that it was - possible that -there alight be two Cabinets, A-Political, Cabinet xesponsible, and a Household, Cabinet irrespon sible, they acted wisely, hethoughtelisinterested ly, and honestly mot c s erta.inly, in refuting to ac cept office. If .such was their opinion, this House had ho tight to' question their constnct. The Ho nourable Gentleman (Mr. Johnstone) had made sothe allusions to Lord Sidmoutb and his Admini "stration, and the opinions of the two Noble Lords to whom he had just referred, were in favour sof the Catholic claims. He rejoiced to Vicar, from what fell from the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) that the, question was not to he opposed, by the Ad ministration collectively, but it must be recollect ed; that Lord Sidruouth was a decided enemy to that measure ; that in so doing, he acted, no doubt, from conscientious motives. -That circum stance had induced a wish in him, that the negos elation of the Marquis Wellesley had come to a ' better conclusion ; the whole of the parties: named in the negociation were honourable men, and had performed a conscientious part, and consequently were little liable to animadverSion Mr. ELLIOT would not take up the time of the House, as . the question lay in a vesy narrow Com pass ; it was in fact a question of great and para mount constitutional importance. To the House of Lords and Commoas the deliberative power of approval of the Government belonged ; - and to the Crown, the deliberative power of choosing its Ministers.. /u the House of Commons was vested Ii the power of negativing that appointment of `li-. nisters—of refusing to sup?ort the choke, eutil it, that choice was sanctione I by the confidence of ~,•, • sr the people. The controul of this ;.louse is the very vital principle of the Constitution. What. had had passed hitherto on the. subject ? A vote had been come to, stating the sense which this House -1 4: entertained of the necessity of making a strongand. - F_. t efficient Administration, implying thereby, that ' t the Adininistration then in power did not possess the confidence of - Parliam 1 ent, nor correspcmd with 4 - the wisheS , Ofithe country. What .is the conse-, quence of that vote ? - The. Gentlemen exercising the pewerseif the Government resigned their si- tuations. A. conimunication was made to the House, in answer to the Address from the Prince Regent, eepressing his determination to comply '. • ,', with the wishes of the country, and the Ministers, that they were requested to hold their situations L ad interim. Weil ! three weeks elap%ed, and no- • P, thing further was heard, till one of. those same 'Ministers came down to the House two days since, - and infOtined Parliament of a circumstance which the House should take care does not prove the , ' [ death of its character and authority. What was that circumstance ? Why, the communication of : : the fact, that „his Royal Highness in answer to .. the Vote of the House, calling for a stronger and more efficient Administration, had returned upon .. the country the very, Administration of which they • complained I .The Honourable Gentleman (Mr: S. Wortley) had stated, and assumed various pro positions, as arising in ,the negotiation between 'the Marquis Wellesley and his Noble Friends,- whieh he would pass over, and advert to the other, arid the last negocietion with the • Noble 1 Earl Moira, who, had. certainly made. a communi cation which was fit for serious. consideration : but When his Noble Friends desired to know whe ther they were to be entrusted with full. powers of . . controul over the whole of the State•OfficeS ? the s . Noble Earl expressed his dissent from .entering i into any discussion of that questiOn: If, there , . . fore, they had Sacrificed their authority by accept- ~ auce of office; under the terms offered, they would • - have divested.themselves;of all responsibility over t , the State, and' have .recognised that principle, . which, of all 'others, was most dangerous, name- ' , ly, dividing - the Court from the Government.— The concessionOf the point would have shewn the - value annexed to the influence, which influence, in conjunction with another Household allied to ',the Government, would have formed a most im- , Asertant barrier, against the power of the Constittes tion. The Honourable Gentleman (Mrs Cart wright) had denied the fact; but did. not Lord . Moira carry.the minute of the conversation to the • ;Prince', inmrder that - the impediment in respect, I ,tos the Household might be removed. The advisers s of, the Crowns however, adhered to the, princi . pies they wished 'to maintain. The Houss;iold 1 . remains as' it was, and the measures on .which his ' . N.obleyriends alone could accept office, were ilot abandoned, namely, conciliation to the Catho- . i lics, , and the repeal of the Orders in Council.- 2 -s 'On the other point there bad been a compromise, for the Ministers completely abjured their trust. Two months ago they declared, that it was the • unanimous opinion of the Cabinet, that the pies- . tion - of the admission of .Catholic Colonels to the ', • rank of . Generals .could not be entertained : they t now declare themselves of . a different opinion.---' - • What would the friends of the Church say to this l What would the Judge of the Prerogative Court, the Member for Oxford, say, when he foUnd . that those very Ministers had drunk the dregs of the cup of political humiliation?—The ,question 1 .for the House to decide was, whether on these grounds they would suffer a vote to be frustrated which they once had come to—recollecting that the authority which passed that vote in those critical tithes was an authority emanating from the people'? Mr. BRAG6E BATHURST admitted that it w as , the undoubted right of the House to express an opinion of . the merits or demerits of any set of 'Ministers, and that right was answered in -the communication made by his Royal Highness bl reply to the first motion of the Honourable Gen tleman. The. motion of the Noble Lord, by wItY of amendment, stood . on the ground that Parlia ment ought -not to trust the -Ministers which the ' 1 House had decided were incompetent to discharg e the duties of the Government. Another Nobl e Lord put the question on plain and simple grounds; . while the Right Honourable Gentleman who lest spoke had considered the question as one of em barrassment, 'and thought that the House ough t not to be satisfied until some other Administra tion, differently formed, :should be appointed" The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. E.) was for ad .dressing the Head of the Executive, until sylia t he and others were pleased to conceive an efficient -Administration was formed. But it was vain to -, put out of sight all that passed in-the negociatioes, and'cOnsequently, unless the House provided sane 'basis on which to proceed s to go on addressing would not produce the desired effect. The Rig i l ' Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Grattan) had talked of the conduct, of the Noble Lords Grey and G re n: ' (1 ville, and of the conscientious part they had ac te No doubt they had acted as becarnetheir charac tei.s, but in his view of the failure of the yegociationtl, •he (Mr. B.) had not considered that the fiousc *hold Officers interfered to prevent an amicable tel 7 mination, for they were left for cons ideration ,`‘'-; a matter - of discretion ; that the preliminary o f t i i e negotiation was s that all the Officers of t:' e Household should be in,th.esame situation as " A: . High Officers - of the • State—that no motive._`:: private feelings- or personal friendship should ,_ll, terfere to 'impede the negotiation. On the etuo; hand it was evident to him,' that if the sine qua ~,, of the Noble Lords was to be acceded to, t''c ;'Sovereign'Sovereign , would have been placed in a state degradation, and such was the feeling of i ., Noble Lord who conducted the negociation• tilit this situation stood the negotiation.' The re s . _ o f of all caineto this, that there was no possibilltY of the Public availing themselves of the', tglen t3 , b ,,s , those Noble Lords, unless they were wining t,_ the Crown should surrender one of its most n"7 l , puta.ble'prerogatives. With .respect to the ot h ' part of the question, he: wished to touch -11 ..n‘ t it s in the most delicate manner. The Hoa. Gen' s i of leW- 4 " man; he was sure, must see,- that insteiu , - ) ~,, ing to conciliation, its tendency would he t ` p --, 1(1 t't e troduce violence; .and the House WOO .ii Cil i I , greatly cut of its way by interfering at SO 1111