The Sun. — London, England, 1812-02-14 00:00:00

• C )11,70. . . , I\7l rein could- be more anxTotis lo hvert Ih impending c it Oca war dein - hi-nself ; but he contended that it d: t ri - nt• rest cteth hi. , 'Right Ho nourable Friend, or with the Government Of thk country, to dthermine the qoesrion of war or peace. i He believed Anse, ica was_ not in her con— cua what the Honourable Gentleman supposed her In be, He believed that she now ad, anced pre tensions which - she had not advanced before, and which the Honourable Gen dem in had never ad. vanced for her. He believed h,he had been led,bs Prance to- adv ince pretensicels which she had not t hought of before. On the; sies s eei he 'wished to sa y nothinh, but found it ditlicuit to restrain himself from defending the line of conderci pnrhh-d by this country moreat large. It was not a question with poverntrien t whether or Not we should go to wr :-vith America, but . whether it was possible to re 04ain at p,-lace? He s (mid not say without risking our grestness-he whorl not say without risking Our honour—he would not soy withOutrisking even our security, but without risking - the very existence 0 this country. Mr. CortWts "had not heard one argument . against the motion hf, his Hon. Friend, except the one which went to state that the House was not the fit place for discussing the differences between the IWO GoVernments. He deprecated the idea which .teemed every day to be gaieing ground, that it was necessary for the well being of the country, to shut taut information fiom Parliament on subjects of the Ereate,t imporiance to the existence of the country. The Hon: and Learned Gentleman had not justi fied the condua of the f3iitish Goverment towards A Plerica,as reprobated by his Hon. Friend. Was the conduht complained, of, such as ought to be_ pursued, and tolerated against the Minister of an independent Nation ? Was there a single individual in• this country (supposing America had treated the British' Minister in a similar Manner), who would not have held up his hand in favour of war, and had not America great reasons for complaining of the- arrogant and inso lent manner in which her Minister was received ? /le should have conceived, under citcum stances, it would have been impossible for Ministers M have denied the papers. The state of things - called upon triem, in his opinion; to review and re trace their steps in the course of the discussions.. "With respeCt to what had been stated isbout the Or 4ers in Council, lie thought the Right Hon. Gen tietnan (Mr. Perceval) might have retracted his opi nion 0 the effect of those orders, the more so, as • a great statesman had so done. The principle of loe measure was:founded on injustice, and it would be well tor Ministers to consider the state of the co untry, when they resolved to persevere in those • ° Me's. Much had been. said ,abroad, , as to change of Ministers; he trusted and hoped, that if a change t ook place, their successors would notesuppo)t these Measures. A change of men, without a change e r sentutrents and policy, would have no effect. • , it would Much rather there was no 'change, it ;t was to be the CdSQi. If the country was doomed 1° „perish, better would it be to perish with the . `'lnis'ers who leas: - brought us -into -the. -mischief. Ihere certainly w,s lamentable.stipineneis iu ca lain pet ous.abo o she iseerests of the empire. The . ' l °n m • Gentlean ti "'.lulled .to the change about to take place in the _ .nd expressed a wish, t hat t i, e neJs ,es pur,,, a, .rid be such as to call 1 1 ,1)00 • o juh...e to the character of tle•t' -u4secuti ve ; -tt t s..tisfy , Le..ntry they lead I ° , teed a ; ,i oorion •0( that ee:son e C hert- - were t •vrost important subjects which "lied tor leis Feriens aecation. , The first was, the" stateof lielneh, eed ti et was a sebj. ct w ich re , quired th e eeee mieehe iniestigation : next to .hat ‘C'aS the shhe ;rations with America. The dental ni tee it chi hien. Gentleman to furnish the 1 )1 1 ) ( rs askeu nis Hon. Friend, was a proof ..,f his - hostility to America. He would repeat it—a thwofe 1)1 ltis homht t ! Stet would argue that h was . not culy a proof o f his hostility, but that he was afraid tu ohet the discussion upon fair and ~ qual grounds. The: CHANCELLOR of the EXCHF.QLIER OlYierved, that he did lea k: ,w what the lionoutairle Geetle ntan was preeared to argue; but most. certainly he not •maintaio by any argument .4•lnd his en lightetted rtind could ,furnish, h it the opposition of his Hon. and Lear : eel Friend was grounded upon 11° -sti:ity towards Arne ica. The. Right Honourable „ `eolleman was prepared to maintain that the resi•t aOce which he should gave to the m-tion also, was not with a view to quarrel, but froma well ground ed apprehension;' that this species of discussion Which it ,sould open, when the country was not necessarily on its defence, was such as to"preclude I n fairness the ,granting it. To avoid these dis tussions, which would naturally tend to irritate a nd inflame, was much to be desired, and the House W "tild a6l wisely in refusing the papers. He agree 7 cd with the Honourable Gentleman, the question w as one of extreme interest and . importance. If America was involved in a war in consequence of t he termination of the dis . cussiOns, whatever he might sa y Q. think as to the temper in which those dis ssions had been carried , on, the languaee on the part of the British Government had been' ' concilia rry and s i ncere .—Hi s Majesty's G overnmen t h a d een most anxiously alive to every thing which could , end to produce a good understanding. En the execution of an imperious duty, they had attended t ° rights which had long been Contended for, which were necessary to be maintained, and which, ' l , l relinquished, would have sacrificed every thing near to the country. The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Whitbread) had carried the discussion far ther than h e i nten d e d, on a mer e Motion for Papers to afford informatien ; the - tnesits of the subject would be much better considered in the o. eat' question to be brought forward by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Brougham). He was not, there fore, desir ous to enter i nto i t now ,- an d l amente d t h e ' lo n. Gentleman should have discussed the policy of th e Orders in Council, as forming a pact of that question. He lamented in common with his Hon: Vriend (Mr. Stephen) that the Hon. Gentleman had s not shewn throughout his speech that disposition Which he professed to set out with, and have ab stained from the discussion altogether. However the conduct of Hon. Gentlemen opposite was not always squared by the rules of correctness : the view whielethey sometimes took of subjects did not yrevent them from giving an opinion against the justice of the cause -of their country. He lameut ca it more, because the House would pot forget that the very system which the Ho,. Genleman Low • : IF they ntaintained the piinciple %;-1)6,n in office, which 0, , -y since found it convenient to Condemn', surely it was too much to taunt the present Govern ment with the adoption cf that systeM. When men sot great- abi,lities, of great consequence, and of high rank in the State, held forth not only to Ame rica, but to the world, that the system was one of injustice, was it to be wondered at that America should find fault With it ? The Hon. Gentleman, t herefore;w when he charged the fault of pursuing that system upon the present Government, must have been greatly, misinformed. In calling upon th'em to renounce the principle Of those measures, he seemed to lose sight that the renunciation more properly ori ginated with his own friends, if t 4; measures were b :d. With respe6t to the correspondence which took place between the Marquis. Wellesley and, Mr. Pinkney, on the subjea of blockade, that question . had Iretn -distinWy stated, and it would not be necessary to refer to that correspondence; but it the Honourable Gentletnqn ,thonght there was no- thing conciliatory, on the part of the Noble Mar quis, he was mistaken : he was not well aware how he could come to that conclusion, unless it was owing to the eeat partiality which he professed to have for America. The recal of Mr. Jackson would he best explained by referencelo the letter; and it -must be reeolleaed, that Mr. Pinkney had many opportunities of conversing with - the Noble Mar quis, and Mr. Pinkney did not complain that all was not done to satisfy his Government on that head. There wete passages in the letter, which over and over again state - that Mr. P. had no doubt in his own mind that a Minister would -be appointed sa:is .fatiory to the American Government. It was re -peatedly explained to that Gentleman, that the cause which operated to prodOce the delay in the ap pointment, was to be attributed to the illness of the King. With resped to the-impolicy and in' injus tice of continuing the Orders . in Council, he would much rather the Honourable Gentleman had gone into the argument on that head, than to have con tented himself with mere asseertions. The Honour able Gentleman could not deny that it was po litic and just to retaliate upon Fiance. The re• suit of the Councils Of 1806, at which Mr. Fox assisted, and the necessary act which ensued, was not one of injustice towards _America and France. Surely it was nut very decorous for persons to lend their hands and voices to deny systems which their own friends proposed. He was prepared to assert and to maintain, that the Orders in Council were consistent with justice as letween nation and na tion in amity, under the present state of the world. Thu Honourable Gentleman had asserted, that the adoption of these orders led to Mercantile distress. In making such an assertion, he begged the xvhole of the question. The tact was not so, and he (Mr. P.) must totally . deny it. Whatever causes for complaint might exist ko the commerci,il world, tho',e causes could not be traced to the Orders in Conn ,cil ; for it ‘ was owing to their existence that the d:s tress is not greater. The distrois was to be paced to the account' of what was termed the Con mental System of Exclusion to time ManufactureS of Great Britain. The Orders in Comic% so lar from ex,end ing that exclusion, were calculated to give relief.— But, however, he would nut anticipate the disco,- sion, which would come much better on anoAmer night, but for the present would notnend that the OrderF , in Council were neither ;: or unjust. Th;ltru. principle upon wh I,e di-cussionS !lad )ecrr carried on with the Minister of America, were founded upon a sincete . conviaiOn, I hat the title prosperity of America was that of Great - Britain ; that this country would, by persevering in tile ami cable tone, derive greater ad vantagesmut of liar pros verity, than could be derived by any aCt of hostility ; That those adva-.tav-s would be secured by peace, and lost by-war; but that such a disposition would be best maintained and practised ; ti it d:d.not interfere with the rights of this Country. - In supporting, therefore, the (Wets in Council, he did not conceive that be w as doing .- hat, under all circumstance, could be con- sidered as injurious to the - mercantile and inanufac turing interests, and acquiescing in the system of France, would not be acting wisely towards the in terests of that class of the community. No person who had read the parrs,.could conceive that there peal of the Orders in Cooneil, would relax the sys tem of the French The Right Honourable Gentleman in furtherace of this opinion, read an extraa from the letter of M. Tun eau, the Alinis ter from France to America, addressed to the Secre tary of St ate in that country, in which he asserts that it was the view of the Government of Gr_eai Britain to break. the ties of friendship between America and this contry—that the views of the Ruler of France was to exclude the produce of the ,soil and manufadures of the common enemy. Was it pos sible, then for any merchant or manufacturer to conclude that the repeal of the Orders in Council, under the existence of the Berlin and Milan D,.creeS, would contribute towards their interest The sys tem of France was to convert trade into a sore, and commerce into a measure of hostility. In refusing the papers now moved for, he was not influenced by any (ear or apprehension of the discussion that would follow with regard to the policy of conduct pursued by Govetnment. If he fat, as the Hon. Gentleman had chosen to assert, viz, that the cor respondence was closed, then he_ would have no ground for refusing them ; but he must say,. that however slight the hope of tile discus sions terminating successfully, he would not be the first person to eXtirguish that hope, and to call forth by angry discussions that the, two Govern ments had not discussed the matters uilh per fect harmony. There were points in dispute which might be discus - sed in this House with more pro • priety hereaftcr. All that he anxious to have it understood in the refusal was, that the state of things had not come to a final coi'clusion. The Honourable Gentleman -(Mr. Comer)) had said, that he trusted the persons ,who were to succeed his Majesty's present Ministers would not pursue the same measures. Now, what golden dreams that Hon. Gentleman had in his imagination he ct.uld not conceive, but as fr,r as he (Mr. P.) was ac quainted witti them, toe Hon. Gentleman's conso latory prospects would not open to his 'iew quite so pleasant as_he expected. But it the principles on which the Hon. Gentleman had hrgued were to be adopted by the House, in order to dictate to the Government„ anxious as they * might suppose him to be for office, be could assure the Hon. Gen tleman that he would not be the Minister to carry them into etleel. this country should go to War America, at least we ought to be fully prepared. Mr. HEituatti' was the friend of peace, and thought at all_ events war should be avoided. He had great doubts upon the propriety of going- to war, and con ceived, it the maritime rights so much insisted on were to be persevered in, it must be done against all Enrope.. Mr. A. BARING thought that it .was hatd;y possi ble to avoid war. He trusted to God, that if it was to commence, the terMination of - it might r - rt be so fatal as she last - war With America. ,With respect to the causes fur complaint, it was always undvrst6td that America ha.f great cause for complaint. The HonouraOle Gentleman went into an examination of the policy of the Orders in Council, contending, that, from the inf6rmation which he had received, Franca had ,repealed the obnoxious part of her decrees—at least, that it was never acted upon. When we saw numerous bankruptcies, when we saw an army in one, and petitions, from various of .our manufacturing towns, it was impossible not to feel the importarvie of the present question. As to our maritime rights, •he wished to know Which of them were in danger? As far as his information went, there was no dispute now on the original poi`--that of blockade, for the correspondence of Mr. FoSter and Mr. Munroe proved them both . to be agreed,. that a blockade by a sufficient naval force, was to all intents and purposeS a good and legitimate blockade. As to the partial repeal of the Orders in Council, that was of all others the strongest proof of the folly of the system: He knew not why there should have been any re laxation' with respeCt Co the South of Italy. The question was certainly of sufficient importance to call for the attention of Members;, and notwith standing all the imputations to which those were exposed vs ho opposed the condua of Ministers, he felt no hesitation in_undertaking that responsibility. His - opinion was, that America:and the Indies might have afforded us a field to work on until a better state of thirios should have presented itsslf in other quar ters. In consequence of the mistaken policy adopt- . ed.towards that country, the whole of South Ame riea was in a slate of retiellion and insurrection. Mr. STEPHEN, in explanation, said, she did not state that the tiade of the country was in a flourish ing condition, but that wh never ruin had taken place, - was in const•quence of the Berlin and Decrees, and that the Orders in Council had raised the produce of our trade to several millions beyond what it produced before their enactment. Mr.. WILB . EIiFORCE said, that when two coun tries were iu a state of pending negociation, it was improper to move for papers by which that negocia tion was liable to be affeeled. Those who,- under such circumstances, called upon the Government to prodece thern i rendered themselves responsible for the mischief Which then prodettion might create. - The case was somewhat altered, when these papers were already before the public, but still it was bard to separate them from those which were at the moment passing between the Ministers of the two countries. If he . agreed* in opinion, with the Hon. ,G..ntlenian (Mr. Curwen), who had argued with such extraordinary animation in favour of taking the power out of the hands of Ministers- , ---if he agreed in his opinion of their principies, he should certainly come to the same conclesiOn ; hot reposing as he did a ivrfect confi- detiee in his Right Hon.. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), trusting as he did to the purity of his motivea,and the uprightness of his view s, he could not deny his claims to. the confidence of_ the House, withoUt Seeing good reason to the contrary. As to :he point of conciliation, he agreed in its propriety, and - also_ in the answer which was given to it. If his Hon. and Learned Relation (Mr. Stephen) had followed the last speaker, he . certainly muse_ have gone into the question, but would that have tended to conciliation ?—When they knew the different opinions entertained by the two great parties, they must. know that it was not, when they looked fur ther, and considered the nature of public discus sions on one side, the conduct of America arraigned on the other, that conduct justified, and the conduct ot. England deprecated, and considered how far the passions and. prejudices of men were liable to hurry them in such a discussion, they must agree that the great and imt ortant 'end' of conciliation was not likely to be answered under such circumstances. If the objeel was conciliation, the discussion of the different topics of complaint and recrimination did not. „afford .the best means of its accomplishment. —Tite motion evidently was not for knowledge, as every person was individually .possesses of it at .present ; it was therefore a preparation foe discussion, 4hicit, as he .had already declar ed, could Dot answer the' purpose intended.--- He would confess, and he was not ashamed to con fess it, ,that there was not at all times a sufficient Kttention in this country to the spirit of conciliation towards'. other countries, and particularly towards . America, It would be well, if persons in high situ ations of Government had been more abundant in their , civilities to that i nation, which, being anew one; was naturally more jealous of etiqUette, possi bly from 'feeling that It did not stand on as high ground . as.other Continental countries. There Was scarcely any measure likely to prevent a war, in which he would not willingly follow his Honour able Friend, if he Might be permitted to call him so, who with great consistency had always been ready to sacrifice private feelings to the promo tion of such Objects as the present. He (Mr. Wilbe rforce) should oppose the motion, because he did not think it calculated to promote the spirit of con ciliation, and consequently not likely to prevent the dreadful extremity which it must be the wish of all to avert. He well remembered that at the time of what was called the great American war, appeals were made to the national honour ; he disapproved of such appeals,. either then or now, because he did not think the national honour committed. It was not by discussing the various topics of injury, nor by representing thedanger to be apprehended, or the me lancholy stale of our commerce at present,- that we should melee any advance in the spirit of conciliation. He - believed that the state of our commerce was melancholy but then it shoOld be remembered that that very melancholy brought along with it dispositions against whiCh it would be necessary to guard, and among others.a disposition to Impatience, a disposition to grasp at any thing rather than wait for the proper result of measures, which after all might be found to contradict the prophecies of those who opposed them. He should abstain cautiously • not . help saying, that they were extremely popular at the time they were first brought forward. Both on the one side and on the other, they should tike a general view of the future as well as the past, should give up whatever they could, consistently with the justice and the policy. oftheir own country. He bought the would be injurious to r‘i, box much more so to America, but could not th;rik it Fossi* that his Right Hon. Friend (the chancellor of the Exche; quer) any more than himself, could look upon that as -a reason for wishing for noSiilities. His Right Hon. Friend presided over the country, a, d was bound, particularly, to watch over its interests; but his mind was not so narrow, ,his views soeon tiaaed, or his principl.s an d . feelings so circnna scribed, as to ado;fit su c h a ru l e of reasoning or of ailing: He would repeat, they should make any consistent sacrifices, but they should not give up what was necessary to the suppri of their commeree, to the supply of their marine force, or to the prosperity of the nation. \ One •of his reasons' for the vote he should give this night was the propriety of preventing angry dis.. cossions to which America might look, without .making those allowances for the eagerness of debate, which ought always to .be: made, and which she might be iin'eced to regard as specimens of ti. more deliberate feehngs of the heart, of which, in fael, there were no tpecimenS There was-,;ie would assert, whatever might be the impressions of particular persons, there was a wish, in this Country. to conciliMe America, to treat her with every attention and every respe6t. This was evi dent from the manner in which the American Mi nister had been received in all public assembles while in this country, from the warm and cord at feeling which was manifested toward, him. He did not know whether it -was prudent to say so-or not, but he could not help thinking that the con duct of the American Government and people were not actuated , by the same feeling with respect tows. He could not help expressi,g his,astonishment at an assertion of the Hon. Genilerhan on . the floor, that the conduct of the American Government had been impartial between this country and France. Heliped that America and England would under stand each other better; that they would look ueolt the question between them in a broad and general way, and decide - upon it in a manner;snitable to their respective characters. • Mr. H. THORNTON objeCted to the motion, though not precisely on the same grounds with the two Gentlemen who preceded him. He conceived that the interference of the House, say motion, would imply a preSumplion of blame to Ministers; a vote carried against Government on t hi s occa sion, might deem to shew that Parliament differed from them in their policy towards America a length to which he was not prepared to go. The motion was also unfortunate, as a pre-judgment of the question, for the real question was, whether the Orders in Council were worth maintaining by a war ? He was one of those who voted against the Orders in the first instance, but still he did not think that the high ground of morality which was taken by some who objected to them, was altogether can did: The experiment was now made, and he wish ed to know whether any practical advantage could be stated in their defence. A fair estimate should be made of its advantages and defeas. He should not limit the nuesiion to the. consideration, whether the conditions were complied with or nor,. for he believed the fad to be, that many reasons concurred to render such compliance inconvenient. If it could be Shewn that the Maritime tights of which they had heard so much, were absolutely necessary to our existence, he would agree that they should be supported at all hazards, but a great part of the question was, whether the Orders in Council dd not prevent ,America from 'carrying continental pro duce into competition with ours in the South Ame. rican and colonial'markets. On all these different heads he hoped the commercial Gentlemen would be prepared to come forward With fads. Mr. BARING explained. Mr. HUTCHINSON said, the question was one of - great' impor?ance, and so far from being disposed to place confidence in Ministers, he wished, if poSsible, that power might be taken out of their bands alto -get her, in order to avert the calamity which he fear. ed hung over the country under their auspices. He deprecated the idea of war, and recommended that of conciliation, not Merely :with regard to Ametica, but to places nearer home. He agreed with -the Member for Devonshire in preferring war to humi• Nation, but would recommend to Ministers to be less tyrannical. If the qnestion w as p u t to,_ him, he should have no hesitation to decide against his own country. His Hon. Friend's motion• was right ; it was tight and necessary as a means of in formation to the Member for Devonshire, and other respectable individuals who had not informed them-- Selves upon the subject. Could any man who heard the Minister talk this night of the disadvantage land inconvenience which musi result front a war-, pro nounce ohn capable of aaing as Minister of this country in the perilous condition ?it which it was placed ? The House wanted papers to s e e what the rights contended for were, to see *whether it wrs intended to ad the part of plunderers, or of real claimants on justice, and thereby to decide whether they would go along with Government in their de. - tnands, or declare themselves against the intention of plunder. His Hon. Friend on the floor was not answerable for the condud of the other Adminis tratiorts. He had stood by himself in the present instance, and' he called for information which the conduct of other persons would not make him less intilled to. The Metnnsr for Carlisle, in a short and impressive, speech, had expressed a hope that the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite would soon be out of place, and that others would succeed who would adopt another conduet towards America and, Ireland. He (Mr. H.) littl e c l ue d w h at men were iu office, so that the principle of conciliation was adopted ; but the answer io that wish could not fail to Make an impression on film. The answer was, not positively,. that he would continue in office, but that it was pobable he would, and that it he did, he would hold it on principles different front those recommended by the Member for Carlisle. He had declared now in the awful coinmenc!ment of this new reign, that if he continued in office, with his present colleagues, or any other patched•np Administration, he would persist in the same un conciliating plan with respect to the two countri:•s to which he alluded :if he did so, he (Mr. I-I.) was convinced, that the Monarchy would be shaken to