The Sun. — London, England, 1837-02-14 00:00:00

0 vn to persons holding to the value of 5/. a-year, who were to be exempt. The landlords were in their case to pay. But what exemption would that 1 )e to the tenant ? If he had a lease, indeed, he would be safe. Otherwise, if he did not pay in the shape of aate, he Would be made to pay in the shape of rent. It would be in finitely better to simplify the rate, and to let it be levied on rent, and on rent alone. He was desirous of making a pro position, which he feared would not be favourably received there ; still less in what it was the usage to call " anoth er Place."—(A lau g h.)—Th at proposition was, that owners of land in Ireland, who did not res id e i n t h at country, should be male to pay a double rate.—(Hear, hear.)—There was no landlord resident in Ireland who did not pay money to the pauper population, and by that means relieve his estate from pressare. Absentees paid nothing ; they never gave even sixpence to a messenger sent to the Post-office. They rfforded no pecuniary relief whatever to the labouring classes. Now it was but a matter of common justice that n'ell who possessed estates in I re l an d, an d w h o res id e d else wisere, and who, therefore, in no way contributed to the relief of the pauper population, should pay a higher rate than men Who resided, and who assisted to relieve that population. It was ti ell known that many landlords in Ireland employed the labouring classes in various ways which were not always pro ductive. He (Mr. O'Connell) knew a gentleman of the name of Smith, near Youghal, who always kept seven or eight hun dred labourers employed. Indeed there was no resident gen tleman in Ireland who did not employ labourers to a greater or less extent. And were they to pay the same rate as owners of land not resident in Ireland, and who personally employed nobody ? It was said by Lord Clare that Ireland had been forfeited three times over; and that every man's claims to landed property there were founded on rapine and plunder. What was the consequence ? That having parcelled out the land to the conquerors in three distinct conquests, the possessors cam e to England and did not reside upon the soil which they owned. At the proper time he would take two or three divisions as to the way in which the rate was to be laid on, and especially as to the expediency of increasing the rate on non-residents. Many persons probably thought that a poor rate in Ireland would relieve the English labourer by keeping the Irish labourer et home. That was a delusion. What was the course now Pursued ? As many unmarried labourers as could come came to England. If a Poor-law were established, married la bourers would also come, knowing that their families would b e supported in their absence. This measure, therefore, which was probably considered by many persons as a benefit, a godsend to the English labourer, would prove quite the re 'verse. He was much surprised to find the Noble Lord under the impression that it was these paupers who made the cons- Petition for land in Ireland. It was a class much above them. Take the 2,300,000 poor out of the country, and the compe tition would be the same. For the reasons which he had already stated, he by no means wished that the measure should proceed with the slowness recommended by the Ho nourable Member for Roscommon. On the contrary, the mere speedily he thought would be the more wisely. Being now introduced, the sooner it was carried into effect the better. Delays were dangerous. Having bold out a hope of relief, that hope, if it could be realised, ought to be realised as expeditiously as possible. They Would otherwise deprive the poor of the assistance, whether from the benevolence of their superiors or the affection of their equals, which they now received. He implored the Bonn therefore to put their hands to the work, to proceed With it, day by day, until it was com pl e t e d. L et t h e w h o l e hund re d workhouses be filled at once. That would lessen the probability of any disturbance. He also implored them to think again upon the subject of emigration. The co lonics, they say, were averse to the reception of emigrants. 'Yes ; because it had always been made a medium for job b.ag. Why might not we succeed, as the Americans had done, by the sale of land? A hundred thousand pounds had been realised in the year in that manner in New South Vales. Let those who were capable of labour be sent out ; ,lat money b e l a id ou t f or th em i n th e p urc h ase o f l au d ; an d 0 3' their labour they would soon acquire the land themselves. This was a subject which deserved, and which he trusted would receive, the consideration of Government and the House. There would be no difficulty in borrowing money for the purpose on the credit of the lands themselves ; and fifty or a hundred thousand persons who were now in a state of destitution might be sent out at once. Let that be added to the relief which the workhouses would afford, and Poor-laws might perhaps be rendered efficient in Ireland. Efficient or not, however, Poor-laws in that country there must now be. Lord HOWICK was rejoiced to find his anticipations that the present question would be discussed without irritation, or reference to party politics, realized. At the same time he was anxious to remove from the minds of the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny, and any other Hon. Gentlemen, the impresaion that the proposed measure was one of greater diffi etflty, and was accompanied by less prospect of success than Was anticipated by his Noble F r i en d. H e was qu i te aware that on the first bfush the evils of the existing state of things were such that the proposed remedy might naturally enough appear disproportioned to them. The Hon. and Learned Gen tleman For Kilkenny had referred to the Report of the Corn- Inis.sioners of P oor I nqu i ry i n I re l an d, and had argued that his Noble Friend had greatly underrated the amount of the pauper Population in that country. He could not believe that the es timate of the number of those who were really in a state of destitution had been underrated by his Noble Friend. But when he looked to the first point to which he necessarily di rected his attention, it was this : what were the causes of that distress which prevailed in Ireland ? The Honourable and Learned Member for Kilkenny had said, and he had said it truly, that the Irish were an industrious hard-working people, who, if they knew-that labour would be afforded to them in this coun tiY, immediately flocked over here to maintain themselves in honest industry. It had been proved in evidence before the emigration Committee of 1827, that the Mendicity Society In this town were obliged to discontinue the offer Of employ 111°14 a‘ sixpence a day, because, at even these low wages, F ore persons were found to apply than could be so em ployed. The next point for consideration had reference to the national resources of Ireland ; and, were her means dimi nished, mi g ht t h ey no t b e st ill app li e d f or the good of the e ountry ? The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had told them, and he believed truly, that there was no part of Ireland which night not by i ncrease d s kill, an d by t h e app li cat i on of la b our d capital, ' be made ten times more p ro d uct i ve t h an i t now Was, and, moFeover, that one-fourth of th e sur f ace o f h er so il e ven now rema i ne d unimproved and uncultivated. They had t aPital and abundance of labour there, and upon that point he C o uld not help a s king how it happen e d t h at i n t hi s country, hen any undertaking offered a plausible pretext of success, Millions of capital were ready for investment in such a spe culation--nay, when capital was always so ready to be ad vanced, that millions had been heedlessly lavished in all Parts of the world—why was it, he would ask, with abund ance of capit a l, an industrious and labo ur i ng popu l at i on, that ample means of employ for this capital—why was it t Ireland presented no means of employm en t.— ( C r i es " hear.") The answer to this question was to be found vthe able report made by Mr. Nicholls. It was b ecause a Mous circle had been established. There was a feeling of _nsecurity in respect to Irelnnd which prevented the invest meet of capital there, and the employment of her additional b m eans of labour. But if it were desirable to remove th e tur tence of the people, that must be the great object to which H r inquired t i e eorts ofhe ouse must b directed. No man could have inquired nto the subject without knowing that the ' i ef cause of that turbulence which prevented the influx of capital arose from the instinct of self-preservation among the labouring classes. It promoted conspiracies amongst them, 4114 led them to enforce their views (and perhaps they were eot altogether mist a k e n) f or th e i r own b ene fit, as they con leived. It was this feeling which induced them to refuse to 44 w a landlord to dispossess his tenant, and by which they enforced those persecutions by sanguinary punishment. Any tentlenien who had read the very clever work by Mr. George awls, on the subject o f I r i s h disturbances, would see an bal/ais of the whole c ause o f th e s t a t e o f t hi ngs . He thought that th would find the dread of starvation and hunger was riongstey the many causes of the disturbances which prevailed Itirt Ireland. But if this were the c ause , he would ask the go nourable and Learned Member, did it not follow . that w h at they were to do was, not to provide for the whole of the people permanently, but to step in by an inter- Position of the Legislature, and arrest th e chief of those 7, ll ses which in success i on were perpe t uat i ng eac h other? • "ey had to take awa y f rom th e m i n d s o f t h e peo pl e the feel- Plng of their subsistence not being se cu re d t o th e m. They ad to d o t hi s, and, having effected that object, they would an end to that notion which was the great cause of that turbulence which presented itself in Ireland. o man, he th 9aght, could doubt the immediate result of ac N complishing is gre a t o bj ect o f promot i ng th d welfare of the Irish people, would t hi s state of probation. He had no doubt that capital i'uld flow i n f rom t hi s country to Ireland, to take advantage cthe che a p l a b our w hi c h Ireland afforded. That being the t a te, he said they might calculate upon a great effect being r aduced by a small number of workhouses being instituted; °c ause it was not the extent of relief actually necessary— was leas co.. not the relief given, which produces an effect in this t ,•"atrY and keeps the people in tranquillity, but it is the cer ecl.ltY that, if the necessity should unfortunately arise, that was here to be obtained. The Hon. and Learned Gen be ' l lan had said that workhouses were of use in this country, ''cruse a very vicious system had crept in, and by these workhousesth at you stimulated the idle to industry ; and that to hl was th e o b ject of erecting workhouses. But i t seemed tle ran (Viscount Howick) that the Hon. and Learned Gen ,ll overlooked anot h er very i mportan t consideration -o,"elY, that while the poor were sure to obtain admission iiet.,boanth,l sides, yet on the one side there was a . certainty of re .rfeni.ieforte other there was the counteracting principle of being given only where it was really wanted, and .r.L.ter) Were, not really wanted, it could not be obtained. efore he maintained that in creating workhouses in Ire sthey need not look to relieving permanently any e.on.si eluetriable number of persons. He should say that in his onion zi t co n s t e it s tely the number of persons to be relieved in the work-is „ I _ Poposed t o b e ra i se d i n Ireland would be smaller t h an ei c _as In this country, b ecause, as the Hon. and Learned Gen th_t?rall had truly s t a t e d, t h e a ff ect i onate feelings of parents to and :Children among the Irish people were remarkably strong, reli ct i . n 4le midst of the misery they endured, and the want of f amed the they experienced, the feelings of relations re feelio " 9 the same : and they had now interfered with those af nature, which, to a great extent, in the south of th a Z t ,", had been extinguished. - There could be no doubt l eer o r. r e cs Were in England, in the work-houses, a greater num h m.rm than of able-bodied persons. But in Ireland, lie ,: nla n i o n doubt that those feelings to which he had alluded would 'a the la full force —there would still bo a great disposition r erfttak a i rt a ; of the labouring classes to prevent their parents :yen b_ g refuge in these asylums, if they were enabled, ity, %Teat sacrifices, to save them from so painful a neces a!sistin firm conviction was; that in passing this Bill, and 46 Noble s cominE. o operation i n th e manner hi n t e d at b y est ablish a friend in • t a short space of time "f th ld , y odyCM C "ling of security to - Ireland, th e whole bof the labouring classes would find profitable employment. He did not think that the amount to be given was so much as the value of the feeling of security to be;thereby given. Upon the subject of emigration he would state this, that he agreed with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in thinking that every facility that ought to be afforded to it should be so afforded ; but he was convinced that they would do well to keep th“ measure distinct from the present Bill. He was convinced that if it were attempted, as had been suggested by the Hon. Member for Limerick, to make it a part of the measure, ac cording to the recommendation of the Poor-law Inquiry, no good would result from such a proceeding. Emigration was now going on to a very great extent ; and, in order to prove this, he would, state that he had obtained returns of emigration from Ireland in the course of last year.-- ( Hear.) He found that the number of persons who had so emigrated amounted to no less than 23,867 ; he found also that, excluding other English ports, there had sailed from Li verpool and Bristol, from which ports the larger proportion of Irish emigrants proceeded—from Liverpool 21,900—from Bristol 11,034. Now he believed that, if they assumed that one. half of the number of emigrants who had sailed from these two ports were Irish, they should not exceed the number of those who sailed from direct English ports ; because, if on the one side they returned too many from the two ports, on the other hand they excluded those who had sailed from Glasgow and other ports. He would take half as the average number, and he might fairly say that 15,000 sailed from England, ex clusive of Ireland, the whole amount of persons being 39,000 emigrants. Mr. O'CONNELL—The number was greater in the last year. Lord Viscount H °WIC K—The Hon. and Learned member said that the numbers were greater if taken for the last year (and so they were) from the fact of the burning of New York. But look at the check which emigration had re ceived on the other hand from the distress oc c as i one d in 1832 by the cholera. The prevalence of that disease was accompanied by a panic, and the consequence was that the newly-arrived emigrants were reduced to a state of the greatest distress. They were compelled to come back, having sacrificed the money which they had intended for their temporary support, as well as the money which they had expended on the cost of their passage. Reports of wide spreading distress were circulated throughout the country, and thus there was a great check to emigration in 1832 ; a check, the effect of which was barely recovered in 1836—that all this was a digression caused in consequence of the observation of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. But if they had made the subject of emigration a part of the Bill then under considera tion, if they had declared that the public would remove all difficulty, he believed that the consequence would have been that all those for whom not any provision was made in the colony, who would go voluntarily otherwise, would have thrown themselves on the public purse—it would, in fact, have been a species of out-door relief. He would now offer this further observation with respect to the gradual introduction of this measure into Ireland ; he did not think the Hon. and Learned Member had correctly understood what was said by his Noble Friend. The measure, as introduced, was an entire measure, but its introduction would be gradual, as in England, in begin ning with unions and workhouses. The district Commis- siwiers would constitute these unions where they were most required, and then proceed through the remainder of the coun try. In this manner he thought that in the first instance, be fore the measure was generally introduced, they would have a valuable test of the general soundness of the measure. And he could not think there would be so much difficulty as was supposed in respect to the number of claimants for relief ; because, though it would be impossible without great incon venience to establish the law of settlement, inasmuch as by establishing such a principle they recognized a positive right to those who claimed it to obtain reiief—there could be no doubt that the Board of Guardians, in the exercise of that discrc- tion with which they were invested, would give relief to those persons who were really and bona fide inhabitants of those districts in which they applied for relief. There would then be this advantage, that they would not have to follow nice legal doubts as to what settlement was good or bad. And if his anticipations of this measure were correct, he confidently looked forward (and he hoped that it ,would occur before many years had elapsed) to that time when it would be safe to say, that in any workhouse or in any part of Ireland really destitute persons should be entitled to relief. That was the state of things to which he looked, and it was one which he did not despair of arriving at. Sir R. PEEL thought the House and the country were under great obligations to his Majesty's Government for mak ing a definite proposal. So much time, indeed, had been ex pended in inquiry into the subject, that a proposal for any new inquiry would be tantamount to an admission that that inquiry was of no avail, and that the prosecution of a scheme of Poor Laws for Ireland was hopeless. Ile believed that the extent of public feeling with respect to the justice and expediency of introducing a system of Poor Laws into Ireland, without en tailing upon them the evils which had pervaded our own system, but introducing a modified code, was so strong, that it was im possible for the Leeislature to refuse to consider the question. He thought, therefore, that they were bound to labour for this purpose. At the same time, if they did feel an interest, as he believed all did, in the welfare of Ireland, they were equally bound to take every precaution that, in acting on a principle of benevolence, they should not visit Ireland with the grievances which they had originally suffered from the former system of Poor Laws in this country. The Noble Lord (John Russell) had referred to those measures which he considered auxiliary to the introduction of a system of Poor Laws in Ireland, and from which lie anticipated considerable aid ; such, for instance, as the affording facilities to emigration, and the undertaking of public works by means advanced from the public funds, fur the purpose of creating employment for the able-bodied poor. He ( Sir R. Peel) was bound to say that he thought they ought not to be too sanguine in their expectations of relief to be ob tained from these sources. He entirely concurred with the Noble Lord in the opinion that every facility ought to be given to voluntary emigration ; but, at the same time, he thought it of the utmost importance that the disposal of lands in the colonies should be put on a totally new footing ; and that the Government ought not so much to seek a revenue from the disposal of those lands as to enable parties disposed to pur chase to do so on very reasonable terms.—( Hear, hear.) In the next place, he thought that, considering that the lands to be disposed of were situated within some particular colony, the first and chief object the Government should have in view should be the benefit of that colony. When that was secured, they might adopt any measure that seemed most expedient or most practicable to produce improvement at home. But he very much doubted whether any benefit derived from the best conducted system of emigration would materially aid in the great object of finding employment for the poor of Ireland, or of diminishing in any sensible degree the excess of the supply over the demand for labour. The Hon. and Learned Gentle man, the Member for Dublin, had asked in the course of his speech why the Government, in the case of Ireland, did not follow the example of the United States? " See," said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman' "how widely extensive and wonder fully beneficial is the system of emigration, acted upon in the United States of America." No doubt many and great bene fits resulted from the system in that country ; but it must never be forgotten that the question of emigration was here vastly different to what it was in America. There the emi gration consisted only of a removal from one part of a great continent to another; here no emigration could take place ex cept by a long passage over sea, attended with many expenses, much inconvenience, and the depressing notion of a complete separation and alienation from the land of one's fathers. Ob serve, too, in our colonies, the difference of l anguage , manners , climate, and quality of the soil. All these afforded, in Eng land and Ireland, obstructions to extensive emigration—ob structions not known in the United States. At the same time he thought that every encouragement should be given to vo luntary emigration—( Hear, hear)—he did not believe that any forced emigration would be found of service.—( Hear, hear.) Forced emigration, to be advantageous, could only be applied on this principle—that no man should obtain relief or assist ance unless he consented to leave his country and to settle in one of the colonies. He did not think that a fit principle to be adopted. At the same time he entirely concurred with those who were for giving every facility to voluntary emigration. He came next to the subject of public works. It was cus tomary for them all in that House to hail with the utmost satisfaction any proposal for the undertaking of public works in Ireland; and yet the Hon. Gentleman who spoke so much in favour of public works was one of those who, in the same speech, would protest agrinst providing in any way for the re lief of the poor by the introduction of a system of Poor-laws. In both cases what was the main principle involved ? The principle of an interference with the natural demand for la bour—( Hear, hear)—the principle of taking money oat of a man's pocket for the purpose of employing it in a manner and for objects in which he felt no interest, instead of leaving it in his pocket to be employed in such a manner as to him should seem to be most advantageous, and for objects in which he felt a direct interest. He ( Sir Robert Peel) therefore, was not much disposed to vote millions of the public money for the mere purpose of giving employment in public works, because in a tranquil country, and in a well organised state of society, he believed all the employment that could be usefully applied would be given by means of private enterprise and exertion. At the same time, if it could be shown that by the employment of public money in public works the foundation of great pub lic improvements would be laid, which could never be ob tained without it, then he admitted that a case would be made out for the interference of the Government, and for taxing the people to give employment to the poor.—( Hear, hear.) But he was strongly of opinion that public works— undertaken only for the purpose of affording temporary re lief to a people suffering from general want of employment, tended only to aggravate the evil they were intended to ob viate. It was, besides, unfair to the people employed, because it held out to them that the employment would be permanent, while it was only intended that it should be temporary.— ( Hear, hear.) Upon the question of public works there were always two important points to be considered—first, that the work proposed to be undertaken could not be accomplished by individual enterprise—second, that great public benefit would be derived from it.—( Hear, hear.) Any aid that the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) expected to derive from the under taking of public works ought to rest upon those considera tions. With respect to the measure at large, as proposed to be introduced by the Noble Lord, he should be sorry to say a word that could imply an objection to it, because, upon the first stage of a measure as important as any ever submitted to Parliament as regarJed its ultimate results on the interest and happiness of Ireland, nothing he conceived could be so unwise, perhaps so unpardonable, as for any man to pledge himself precipitately as to the course he would pursue. If, therefore, he said a word upon the subject upon that occasion, he trusted the Noble Lord and the Government would believe that it was not with the slightest hostility against them or remotest disposition to oppose the measure , but merely as a friend having every wish to facilitate the ca rr yi ng o f a measure of the kind, and to make it in every respect as perfect as pos sible.--( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Kilkenny (Mr. O'Connell) had stated that THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 14, 1837. the Legislature had now no option upon the subject —that having once been introduced, the measure must of necessity be carried. He ( Sir Robert Peel) certainly thought that the Legislature was bound to consider the question of Poor-laws for Ireland ; but if he were told because the matter had been broached, that therefore it must at once be proceeded with, and that the exercise of no discretion was to be left to the House, he begged to reply, that he totally dissented from that doctrine.—( Hear, bear.) He did not believe that by the mere proposal of the measure any such expectation of undoubted re lief would be excited in the minds of the people of Ireland as to take from the Legislature all discretion upon the subject ( Hear, hear.) A part of the Noble Lard's proposal was the building of workhouses. If a hundred workhouses were built, he (Sir Robert Peel) begged to ask what would be the ave rage area of square miles over which each district in which such workhouses was situated would extend ? Lord J. RUS SE L L —Twenty square miles. Lord 110 WICK (we believe)—Each district will be twenty miles square. Sir R. PEEL—There is a vast difference between twenty square miles and twenty miles square; let me understand dis tinctly which is intended ? Lord J. RUSSELL—Twenty miles square. Sir R. PE EL resumed—That would comprise a space of four hundred square miles. Then again, did the Noble Lord propose that one portion of a family seeking relief should be admitted into the workhouse, and that other portions should be permitted to work, or beg, or do as they pleased ; or, as a condition to relief, must the whole of the family he admitted at once ? Lord J. RUSSELL—It is proposed that no relief shall be afforded to one member of a family unless the whole be at the same time admitted to the workhouse. Sir ROBERT PE EL thought the Noble Lord would find that that system would not adopt itself to the other p-ovi sions of the Bill. This proposition, of course, was founded on the success which was supposed to have attended the workhouse system in England. He felt that in the present condition of Ireland there was no time for delay; but he thought it much to be regretted that greater experience of the practical working of the system in England had not been obtained. As regarded the introduction of Poor-laws into Ireland, too, it must be remembered that the situation of that country, as compared with England, was widely different. England was a country which had been subject to a system of Poor-laws for 300 years, in the course of which time many grievous abuses had crept in, and much difficulty had existed in removing them. Ireland was a country in which as yet no system of Poor-laws had ever existed. It was inferred from the partial experience of the last two years that the new workhouse system had worked well in England ; but he (Sir Robert Peel) did not think the last two years a fair test by which to judge of the operation of the system. During the whole of that time there had been a great demand for labour in consequence of the great works undertaken in this country by the enterprise of private individuals. The system, therefore, had come into operation under very great advan tages.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord stated that he would make no distinction in Ireland between the claims that arose from impotency and those which arose from destitution, and he added that he thought no valid distinction could be drawn be tween the two. He (Sir R. Peel) was willing to give the point every consideration ; but, speaking from the present im pression of his mind, he must say that lie thought there was a most material distinction to be drawn between claims arising from lameness, blindness, disease, and extreme old age, where it was evident there were few opportunities of frail, and claims arising from destitution, which in many cases might be real, but in others might be feigned, or the result of indolence or improvidence. If the system of an extensive dispensary wete established, at which the blind, the lame, and the extremely old should be the only claimants for relief, there would be no risk of false claims; and any system adopted in Ireland ought un doubtedly to afford instant and substantial relief to all that class of persons. But the moment the claims of the able bodied man were admitted on account of destitution, from ina bility to find work, from that instant all test was abandoned by which to ascertain whether the claims were valid or not. The Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) was very confident the work house system would afford an effectual check to false claims; and upon that point he had quoted the testimony and opinion of Mr. Nicholls. He (Sir IL Peel) was as fully disposed as the Noble Lord to attach great weight to the opinion of that gen tleman ; but at the same time he thought hiss experience of die working of the English Bill must be too brief to enable him to speak with any certainty as to what the probable operation of a similar system would be in Ireland. But con sider what these workhouses would be in the centre of an area of 400 square miles. The advantage of the workhouse sys tem in England was, that it afforded an immediate test of the validity of the claimants. How, embracing so vast a district, could it afford a similar test in Ireland? He feared, too, if the workhouses should become popular in Ireland, that those who lived in the immediate neighbourhood would have the prior claim, so as to prevent those who lived at the greater distance of ten or twenty miles from any chance of admission at all. Therefore, if a rigid law were laid down that no relief should be given except an admission to the workhouse, he was afraid the remedy proposed would be found in practice to be a very partial one. The Noble Lord had stated, that all those who could not obtain relief within the workhouses would be at liberty to wander about and beg. Was it impossible—had the Government determined in their own thoughts upon the impossibility of mixing up with the workhouse system some system of domiciliary re lief ?—( Hear, bear.) The great disadvantage of the work house system was its inflexibility. Might not that disad vantage be obviated in some degree by the establishment of a system of domiciliary relief combined with it? As he had stated before, be wished to give this measure his cordial sup port, and he should undoubtedly do so, if, in the course of the further discussions upon it, he should feel con vinced that the workhouse system was inseparable from the introduction of Poor-laws into Ireland. All that he was afraid of was, that by the rigid rule of excluding every claim to relief unless administered within the walls of _ the workhouse, and of allowing vagrancy to be sane tioned by the law, very little practical good would be effected. The Noble Lord stated that the workhouses would not be filled, because the natural affection of the Irish people would induce them to support their poorer and more destitute relatives. In that case, he ( Sir Robert Peel) thought they would not relieve the class of persons who stood most in need of it. If that feeling obtained generally in Ireland, and if this system were adopted, be feared that the pressure of charity would fall most heavily on those who were least capable of bearing it. But at that time, and in that early stage of the proceedings, he would not extend his observations. He gave every credit to the Government for bringing the mat ter forward.—( Hear, hear.) As far as be was personally con cerned, ho was disposed in every way to labour towards, ho would not say the literal adoption of the measure as it was then proposed to them, but towards the introduction of a sound system of Poor-laws into Ireland, by which the suffering poor of that country might be relieved, without entailing upon them and upon the richer classes such heavy evils as had arisen in England from an indiscriminate application of relief.—( Hear, hear.) With that feeling he should address himself to this measure with exactly the same,zeal as if it had been introduced by his own friends.—( Cheers) _ . Mr. JAMES GRATTAN" thanked the Noble Lord most sincerely for the measure he had brought forward. He be lieved it to be essentially necessary to the welfare of Ireland, and with that view he should give it his most cordial support. He believed that the adoption of a system of Poor-laws in Ireland would be attended with this great benefit—namely, that it would induce many of the absentee landlords to return to Ireland and reside on their estates.—( Hear. ) Lord STANLEY cordially agreed with the Hon. Gentle man who last addressed the House, that it was an important question, and the all-important question as regarded Ireland, to adopt such measures as would compel the absentee proprie tors who had estates in that country to take upon themselves— he would not say to supply by a pecuniary aid (for it would be impossible by any merely pecuniary assistance to remedy the evils resulting from the absence of the proprietors of estates) —the performance of such duties, and of giving such assistance, for which, in his conscience, he believed they were responsi ble.—( Hear, hear.) He came forward to express his opinion on the subject as a landlord and as a proprietor of land in Ire land, necessarily at times liable to the name of an absentee ; but it had been his earnest endeavour since he had been con nected with property in Ireland to supply that duty which was incumbent on him—(Heer, hear)—and he could fairly say that he had never shrunk from the performance of that obli gation which was imposed on him. He would at once say, disregarding any short-sighted view of the question, that with regard to this question he was perfectly ready to take his full share, as an Irish landlord, of the burden which it was pro posed to impose on him.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord who bad introduced the measure said that he had two objects in view ; in the first place, giving the landlords an interest in the good management of their estates; and in the next place, which was the most important part of it, making such provi sion as would put a stop to the frightful system of vagrancy and mendicity that prevailed in the country. With regard to the second of these points, it was impossible for any man having the least experience of Ireland to lessen the import ance of that most general and far-spread pest of society in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It was impossible to speak in terms too strong of the evils resulting from the state of vagrancy which prevailed generally throughout the country. With re ference to the means to be adopted to get rid of this system was relief to be afforded without distinction in all classes of vagrancy, whether caused by idleness, or resulting from mis fortune and circumstances over which the parties had no con trol ?—( Hear, hear.) The mischievous poison of the system had distilled evil itself into the bosom of society in Ireland ; it had led to the most baneful consequences ; it had engen dered a system of utter disregard to consequences ; it bad re moved the strongest checks to improvidence ; it had thus tended more than anything else to impoverish and deteriorate the condition of the people ; and therefore to get rid of an evil of such magnitude, if it were necessary to impose a tax—whether it amounted to half a million, a million, or even two millions— was a matter of little or no consequence.—( Hear, hear.) On all occasions, when mere abstract resolutions had been moved in that House similar to that which had been proposed that night, namely, that it was expedient that a Poor-law should be introduced into Ireland, lie bad felt, whether sitting as a member of the Government, or on the opposite side of the House, that they were liable to objections on the ground of their vagueness, and at the same time pledging the House to principles which,l at the time, were not fully felt and appre ciated. He thought also that by pursuing this course they were creating expectations which could not be fulfilled, and that they were exaggerating evils which ought not to be ex cited on such a question as this, and thus evil had been done when they were most anxious to do good. He admitted, how ever, that the circumstances of the case were altered, when there was a specific plan brought into view by the Government, on its responsibility, and grounded on a mature consideration of the subject.—(Hear, hear.) He, as a landlord, felt grate ful to the Government for having taken upon themselves the trouble and responsibility of introducing this important subject.—( Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend (Lord John Rus sell) and his colleagues were folly sensible of the difficul ties they had brought upon theituelves by taking up the mat ter--( Hear, hear, hear)—and ht trusted that the subject would be followed out to a satisfactory termination. For his own part it would be his duty, as well as pleasure, to give all his exertions to carry out this neasure, without pledging himself to all its details, to a successful result.—(Hear, hear.) He had alluded to the st.te of vagrancy in Ireland, and was anxious to offer some oteervations on the subject to the House. It had been argued by gentlemen who spoke against allowing compulsory relief, that by doing so you would check the flow of private benevolence in Ireland. He would speak as an Englishman who had ived in Ireland, and had seen much of the people and (*awry. He could say with out hesitation, that he had seen instances of self-devo tion on the part of the peasantry of that country which ho was sure could not he met with elsewhere; he had re peatedly met with sacrifices, for the purpose of benevo lence and charity, of all the little comforts they possessed without reflection or hesitation, which reflected the highest credit on the humblest classes in Ireland.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") They considered that unfortunate vagrants were entitled to command relief at their hands, and without hesitation they brought them to their own houses to share the same humble shelter and food as the owner was enabled to af ford to his family.—(Hear, hear.) He would tell Hon. Mem bers that this was not a rare occurrence in Ireland—( Hear) — it was not a casual event, but it vas a matter of daily and constant occurrence--( Hear, hear)—and be it recollected that the persons who afforded this aid were themselves steeped to the lips in poverty.—( Hear, hear.) Let the House sup pose the case of a poor widow left deserted, with a large fa mily, and surrounded with those who hardly knew how to get their bread from day to day, yet in such a district there could not be found a house in which the widow would not find a refuge--nay, more, he would venture to say that there was not a poor family who would refuse to charge themselves with a permanent share of expense towards the support of this fa mily, and this even to an extent beyond their means. Would he check this system of benevolence ? He honoured too highly the benevolence thus manifested—he felt too much as a Chris tian the nature of the feelings from whence it emanated—to endeavour to check the sacred flow of it.—(Hear.) But looking at the matter as a statesman, regarding also the state of the country, and looking to the habits of the people, and recollecting also the necessity of engendering habits of fore sight, he felt satisfied that the Legislature must not force on the poor peasantry of the country such a share of the charge of supporting those who were absolutely destitute. —( Hear, hear.) High and exalted virtues undoubtedly they were ; and the more high and exalted because unseen and unknown. —(Hear, hear.) But, while admitting this, it was the duty of the House to recollect that the practice of those virtues produced in the minds of the population a sense that it was not necessary to look to the future, or to make provision be yond the present moment. No doubt this state of things re sulted from feelings of a high origin, but if it were not checked by law it produced abuses in the law, and led to the existence of the greatest evils in the country.—( Hear, hear.) It led to the most pernicious system of imprudence in the habits of the peasantry, and it induced them to give away their last halfpenny, or potato, without knowing where they could supply their own wants and those of their families.—( Loud cries of Hear, hear.) This overstrained and exaggerated character .of benevolence arose from the pe culiar circumstances of the country ; for they could not tell they might not themselves fall into this state of destitution. He saw in this the strongest reason not to strain those feel ings, but by doing so the exercise of them might prove injuri ous to the social system. Therefore he was prepared to say, let us adopt some system of relief for the utterly destitute.— (Hear, hear.) He contended that in such a state of things as at present existed in Ireland the State should interfere, and say to the struggling cottagers of Ireland, " You shall not share beyond your means ; your richer neighbours shall also contri bute their share towards the relief of the most destitute."— (Cheers.) lie agreed also with his Majesty's Government, that the utterly destitute should alone be relieved. He was aware that the most exaggerated anticipations, as well as the most extravagant feelings of alarm, were held by different parties as to what would be the result of the adoption of Poor laws in Ireland. One party looked upon it as imposing a burden which would swallow up all the property in Ireland. It possibly might do so, if they did not look carefully to the operation of the working of the system. On the other hand, they were told that a system of Poor-laws would at once lead to the investment of capital in Ireland, to the general employment of the poor, and to a higher rate of wages; it was the duty of that House to do all that could be done by legis lation to promote these ends.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Ile could not, however, help observing that these exaggerated feelings held on one hand and the other had been attended with the most injurious effects. He had no such strong feelings of an ticipation as to its benefits ; he participated in no such feelings of alarm as had been described.—(Hear.) He thought that much good might be effected by the adoption of a judicious and sound system. He was persuaded that the destitution to command relief must be absolute, entire, and hopeless—such destitution must be alone the limit of the law.—( Hear.) They must on no account hold out expectations of relieving the man who with a few acres of land WdS distressed because he had agreed to pay an amount for rent which he was not able to pay. __(Hear, hear.) The adoption of a plan by which re lief would be afforded to this class would indeed be a confisca tion of all the landed property in Ireland. Such a system would be as a relief to the individual himself; it would not lead to a great degree of providence for the future, but it would hold out a similar and even a stronger inducement than at present to this class, to make the most improvident and absurd bargains ; at the same time it would ruin the land lords, and make the conduct of the peasantry still more thoughtless than at present.--(Hear, hear.) Now, with re spect to the dangers which they had to look to. The danger which resulted from the late Poor-laws in England was, that there was a systematic laxity in their administration beyond all example, which produced scenes of evil of which all men were witnesses, and which necessarily led to the adoption of a check in their administration, which, by a gradual and care ful mode of proceeding, would no doubt lead to a great im provement. In Ireland, however, they had to proceed from opposite series of change. In this country it had been found necessary to contract as much as possible the system of relief; so in Ireland it was necessary to set out from the other end of the series, and they must make rules and regulations which they would be able to enlarge.—( Hear, hear.) Ile said this, not from any wish to take from the peasantry or pauper population of Ireland any advantage enjoyed by the pauper population of England. The House must see how far it was necessary to make restrictions in the one country in the system already in force, and how far they were enabled to relax in the other country.—( Hear, hear.) In adopting, therefore, Poor-laws for Ireland, care must be taken that they did not go on the opposite line to that which he had just al luded to. Thus they should have a narrow system of relief in the first instance, which could be enlarged afterwards. His Noble Friend proposed to limit relief to the workhouse sys tem. In principle he was induced to agree with his Noble Friend ; but he thought it necessary to see what this system should be. He did not think that any great inconvenience would result from having these large workhouses in large towns ; but he did not think that this would be altogether the case in agricultural districts. In the first instance, many per sons might be induced to subject themselves to the confine ment and restraint which necessarily existed in a workhouse, with a view of obtaining a sufficiency of food and clothing, but the feelings of restraint and confinement were so ad verse to anything like Irish feelings and habits—( Hear, hear, hear)—that if the workhouse was found to be a great check in England in inducing the poorer classes to depend on their own exertions instead of resorting to the parish, it would be found to be a still more powerful check in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Those great inducements in the shape of good living, clothing, and lodging would not have near the same effect in Ireland as in England.—( Hear, hear.) In speaking of a workhouse system, it is necessary to exa mine how the workhouses are to be distributed. He did not wish to trouble the House at such length ; but when a great measure was introduced, in which no party feelings were in volved on one side or the other, be thought that it would be advisable to throw out at once such suggestions as occurred to him as to any difficulties that might appear in the work ing of it. He , confessed that he had doubts and hesitations as to some parts or the' proposed Plan, and therefore what he then stated were Observations which he trusted would not be considered as binding upon him. His Noble Friend had told the House that one of the chief objects of the Bill was the making provisions for the relief of destitute vagrants. Un less they meant completely and decidedly to put a stop to and prevent vagrancy, they could not be successful in effecting their object. To attain this end it would be absolutely neces sary that there should be workhouses within such a distance of each other that the infirm and aged could readily reach the workhouse without having to pass a great distance through the country.---( Hear.) If you do not get rid of this system of vagrancy you do not get rid of the great evil which now exists in Ireland ; and to effect this object it was absolutely neces sary that the workhouses should not be at too great distances apart. If he understood his Noble Friend correctly, the work houses were to be twenty miles apart ; that was, that each workhouse should be in the centre of a square, the radius of which, if he might use the expression, was ten miles. He did not speak mathematically, but he believed he was correct. Lords J. RUSSELL and H 0 WIC K severally made some observations across the table, which were not audible. Lord STANLEY proceeded to state that he believed his Noble Friend had two objects in view in the erection of these large workhouses. By having them on a large scale his Noble Friend believed that by a system of contract the pau pers would be supported at a less expense, and also that the cost of superintendence would be diminished. But his Noble Friend had, at the same time, kept out of view what, in his (Lord Stanley's) opinion, could not but prove to be a great evil—he meant the difficulty of getting in Ireland proper persons to act on the board of guardians. His Noble Friend might re pl y t h a t even by reducing the distance be tween the w or kh ouses to five miles, they would still h ave t o contend with the same difficulties in finding fit persons to act. But the difficulty was not diminished by increasing the size of the district ; for it did not follow that because you could not get ten persons in half the distance, that you could get twenty persons in the proposed distance. His Noble Friend must be aware that the very extent of some of the unions in England was productive of a great deal of mischief. Some persons, the most proper to act as guardians of the poor, would not go out day after day and week after week to a consi derable distance to attend the meetings of the board. This would more- especially be the oase in a country in a distracted state ; and he was satisfied. that in many parts of Ireland, on this ground, many gentlemen would decline going to a distance from their homes to attend board meetings. There were also different motives operating to induce gentlemen to take upon themselyes these offices in tfie two countries. The object in England was to reduce a great burden, but in Ireland, by car- rying out the proposed system, they would entail a great burden on themselves. He was satisfied that they, would not get the persons of the same class in Ireland to attend, day after day, and week after week, as was the case in England. He repeated, if the difficulty to procure the services of proper persons on the Board of Guardians here was found to be great, it would be still more so in Ireland. He was also satisfied that the more they extended the size of each workhouse district the greater the difficulties that would be felt. He was of opinion that the proposed workhouse district was too large . for the practical working of the system. It should alto be re collected that there was a great want of a proper parochial machinery in Ireland, and therefore he thought that they would have to give greater power to the Commissioners in Ireland than was given to .them in England. There was another part of the plan with respect to which he wished to say a few words, and which was suggested to hint by what had fallen from the Noble Lord. It was proposed that titter and entire destitution should be the only ground of relief: Did not this suppose as a corollary that entire destitution gave an absolute right to relief? How could they tell a man that be should not go a begging, and at the same say that the case was not one of destitution, and relief, therefore, should not be given ? Upon whom would they throw the responsibility to say who had and who had not a right to relief ?—( Hear, hear.) llis Noble Friend, he believed, went further, and said that destitution was the sole condition of relief. He said that he would give no absolute right, and the reason was, that he could not do so without having a law of settlement. He would not pledge himself upon the subject, but would wait to hear whether the Government could show the possibility or practicability of introducing any measure—whether it gave to the pauper an absolute right, or not an absolute right, to relief—which should not carry with it the necessity of some law of settlement. Let them not shrink from the difficulty of the case. He knew it was a difficulty. His Noble Friend had said, " Look at the Law of Settlement in England, and see what trouble, what litigation, what expense it occasions ; there fore (said his Noble Friend) simply let us have no Law of Set tiement at all." Suppose his Noble Friend were to be met with this sort of argument—" Set what abuses have pre vailed under the old Poor-law system in this country; see what ruin in every direction it has occasioned.; therefore let us have no Poor-law at all ;" would r not be precisely the doctrine which his Noble Friend now advanced against the Law of Settlement ? If the House recognised the prin ciple that destitution should be the test of relief, and that that relief should be limited to the workhouse, and if they meant as a general measure that it zisould prevent va grancy—vagrancy being the greatest evil in Ireland—then they must give to destitution an absolute right and claim upon some fund; and if they gave to destitution an absolute right and claim upon some fund, then they must by some law of settlement say upon' what fund that claim should be, From this chain of.reasoning he could not see how they could escape —how was it that his Noble Friend proposed to begita this system in Ireland ? Why, by establishing at first fifteen workhouses in that country. Now it was admitted that there would be a great rush of paupers upon those fifteen workhouses, and that it would be impossible to resist their claims.—( Hear, hear.) But that was an argument in favour of a law of settlement, when thay were were about to give to paupers a claim throughout Ireland the same as in England, upon every one of those workhouses. But if in Ireland the authorities should not choose to admit the paupers claiming, then, according to the proposition of his Noble Friend, those paupers should have a right of begging. See how, adopting, as it was proposed to do, the same law and the same ad ministration in Ireland as in England, such a r plan would operate. At present there was no Poor Law in Ireland ; con sequently, from the coasts of Cumberland, Westmoreland, or the Western coasts of England, they could ship off any number of Irish paupers, they thought proper, and turn them loose on Irish ground, and tell them to beg their way home. Was it intended by the Noble Lord that there should he thrown upon Belfast, Dublin, or Waterford, an absolute and compulsory, though not a legal, burden of this de scription ; or to say to them, " Though there is a Poor Law throughout Ireland, and an universal system of relief, yet these persons must be maintained by you in Dublin, Waterford, or Belfast, or else they must be allowed to beg their way through the country ? Was that the way they did in England? lf, then, they wished to introduce the same system of relief into Ireland as prevailed in England, they must carry the same system throughout. They must make the county of Dublin bear the same relation to the county of Lancaster, as the county of Cornwall or the county of York bore to it at the present moment. But this they could not do without establi;hing a law of settlement. Without a law of settlement, therefore, and without giving paupers an absolute title to relief, he could not see how it was practicable that the present measure could prevail. lie would not at the present moment enter into a consideration of the several very important questions of detail involved in this Measure. He entirely agreed with his Noble Friend in the propriety and expediency of the provision for excluding clergymen of all denominations from the administration of these funds.—(Hear.) Their interference might lead to heart-burn ings, and to suspicions of partiality, if not to partiality itself ; while it would to a great extent be mixing them up with a vast number of circumstances from which they had much better be excluded. They would then be better able to perform their proper functions, as a sort of mediator between tfie guardians and the paupers. It was perfectly consistent with their sacred . . office to advocate the claims of charity, but not to administer parochial or district relief. The question of rating was one of great importance, and to which he was aware that Government had given very serious attention. He could not, however, say that he altogether agreed with them in the conclusion at which they had arrived. He should have been most desirous of see ing a system by introduced by which the poor-rates levy might have acted as an absolute and positive check upon that which he held to be one of the greatest evils of Ireland as between landlord and tenant, namely, the exorbitant rents fixed upon, which one pary never expected to receive, and which the other party knew he could never pay. He should have been glad to see the amount of rate taken and estimated upon the covenanted rent as between landlord and tenant. That would have acted, in his opinion, as a very important check to the evil that so greatly prevailed in Ireland. For now the land lord imposed a rent of 50s. an acre, knowing at the same time that he should never get 405., but, trusting to what he could screw out of the tenant, willing to take everything if he could get it ; while the poor tenant, from the great com petition for land, undertook to give 505., knowing also at the same time that he could not pay any such sum. Now, if they could introduce a system by which the amount fixed as the rent were made the basis of the amount of taxation— to which there could be no objection, that being the valua tion imposed by the parties themselves—there would be at once a check upon the exorbitant avarice of the land lord, and also upon the improvident want of foresight on the part of the tenant in promising an amount of rent which he was not able to pay. He hoped it.: would not be impos sible to introduce some such provision in the Bill. It was also a question to he considered, when they came to the de tails of the Bill, as to the amount to be charged upon the landlord, and the manner in which it was to be distributed among the landlord ;and tenants; and also as to the means by which they were to pay it—whether they should deduct it from the whole of the landlord's rent, or whether the amount charged upon the landlord should be first paid by the tenant and allowed as a part consideration of the rent—which he should think the most desirable course. But these were questions to be considered by them in committee, and dis cussed by them as members of the House of Commons, who, whatever their opinions might be upon theoretical questions, he hoped, when they came to deal with a great question of this kind, concerning which there was but one sole and only interest on both sides of the House, would equally endeavour to carry it through perfectly by friendly argument, and by discussing it, warmly if necessary, but at the same time can didly ; and by bowing to the opinion of the majority, and to expediency, when their mutual object was ascertained to be the same. He wonld say that was the course the House of Commons ought to pursue on a question of this kind. That is (said the Noble Lord) the course which I mean to pursue, nay, in the name of every Member on either side of the House, without distinction of party, may I not say that that is the course which we shall pursue ?"—( Loud cheers.) With re gard to extending the right of relief not only to the impotent but to the able-bodied pauper, he confessed he himself saw no means by which they could draw a line of distinction between the two ; limiting, as it was.proposed to do, that relief altogether ; at all events in the first instance, to that which should be given in workhouses, and workhouses alone. With no ex- aggerated expectations that this measure would produce un limited prosperity in Ireland—with no exaggerated expecta tions that it would entirely relieve even partial, local, much less general distress—while, on the other hand, with no ex aggerated apprehensions that it would endanger the rights of the landlord, he, as an Irish landowner, thanked his Ma jesty's Government for having introduced the measure, and, as an Irish landlord, he would give his aid to bring the mea sure to as perfect a conclusion as possible. He had omitted to mention one question, which was with respect to the num ber of vagrants. He hoped, in considering the question of destitution, his Noble Friend would make it understood that no person renting and occupying land should - be considered in such a state of destitution as to give him a right to relief. It had been said that there would be a great influx of paupers at particular times of the year in the workhouses. Undoubtedly this would be the case if they admitted this class of persons ; because the small landholders at certain periods of the year suffer great distress, generally in the months of May, June, and July, between the consumption of one crop and the gather ing of the other. Now if men, though holding four or five acres of land, were at those periods to be considered in such a state of destitution as was no doubt often actually the fact, as to entitle them to come into the workhouse, the workhouses would be inundated and overwhelmed, and the effect would be that every farthing so paid and expended would be paid into the pockets of the landlord. He did not wish to raise the rent of the Irish landlord, though be believed it was capable of be ing raised. First, it might be raised by superior cultivation, by a greater extension of the farms, by increased application of capital to those farms, and by a greater conversion of that class of the population who now depended partly upon letting four or five acres as landlords, and partly upon holding three or four acres themselves, into active labourers. He believed that if those changes could be introduced, the rents of Ireland, under a good system of Poor-laws, were capable of being materially and honestly raised to the benefit of the_ land lord, but no less also to the benefit of the tenant. What he wanted to prevent was the dishonest and fraudulent raising of rents ; that system of nominally raising rents to an amount which was never intended by the landlords to be levied, but which was intended to screw down the tenantry, and to force from them the last penny their impoverished condition could spare. He thought to a certain extent the measure intro duced by his Noble Friend to-night might have the effect of mitigating this great prevailing evil ; and whatever should have that effect would be an unmixed good. Feeling confi dent that the House would seek sedulously to guard the mea sure by such salutary provisions as should not allow it to impose an undue charge upon the property of Ireland, and believing a s that it would not be attended with those dangers which some persons had anticipated from it, he should give it his cordial support ? and in every stage of its progress lend the Government his humble assistance, not, however, concealing any objections which he might conceive from time to time ap plicable to it.—(Cheers.) Mr. RICHARDS expressed hi nself delighted at the pros pect of a well regulated' system of Poor-law s f or I re l an d. This was the one great thing waiting to her happiness and well being. Lord JOHN RUSSELL felt deeply indebted to Hon. Members on both sides of the House, for the many valuable suggestions made in the course of the evening. The House might rely upon all these suggestions receiving the best and most mature consideration of his Majesty's Government. H e had every confidence that he should be enabled to come to a conclusion satisfactory to all parties. The resolution Was then agreed to, and ordered to be re ported to-morrow (this day). The Registration of Marriages Bill was then r2ad a third time, and passed. POST-OFFICE. The Post•ofce Contracts Bill having been read a second irrtc, De. BOWRING observed that the French mail service embraced the whole Mediterranean. He wished to express a hope that arrangements might be made in this particular by which English correspondence might also be benefited in the transmission of letters. He could not help complaining of the Post--office mails being carried between England and Portugal by gun-brigs instead of steam-boat s , an arrangement productive of great irregularity and delay. Mr. HUME had often expressed his objection to the class of vessels used for ezrrying mails, which were altogether unfit for the purpose, and caused a great loss of life and property. 'The loss of life and property had been increased fifty per cent. since the mails had been put under the direction of the Admiralty. Mr. C. WOOD said that the packets of which the Hon. Member had complained had already been changed to a great extent, and would be so entirely as soon as the arrangements could be made. Mr. WALLACE inquired whether the change in the con stitution of the Post-office would be carried into effect this Session, and if other measures would be brought forward ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, ge neral measures on the subject would be introduced early in April. It was desirable that the financial year should close previous to these measures being brought forward. His Hon. Friend might depend on the Government pursuing steadily the course it had commenced in improving this department, one branch of which being connected with the revenue, could not be adverted to with propriety, until the close of- the financial year.—(Hear.) The Grand Juries (Ireland) Bill was reported, with a few verbal amendments, and ordered to be read a third time to morrow. Mr. WILLIAMS postponed his motion relative to Ex :he tiler Bills. The other Orders of the Day were thel agreed to, and 0 - e Hone adjourned at One o'clock. (:COURT OF COMMON PLEAS. LIBEL. MORRISON V. HARMER. (Conll,llled from Tic Sun of )esterday.) Mr. Sergeant WILDE replied upon the evidence pro duced by Mr. Kell j ' to rebut that given by the defend ant, contending that his clients were not only justified, but called upon in the performance of a public duty to do what they had done ; and trusted that the Jury would not be led away by the delusive evi dence which had been broeght forward on lehalf of the plaintiff—evidence which, in many cases, had not been thought of till the eleventh hour. Mr. KELLY replied on the whole case on behalf of the plaintiff, denying that the defendants bad proved the materials of which the pills were composed, which was the whole essence of their case. Every medical man thathad been called, admitted that they had never taken or administered the medicine in ques tion. No doubt the medicine was an innovation and was calculated to put out of practice many medical men ; it was therefore no wonder that they should come forth and stigmatise the me dicine. He trusted the evidence would be received by the jury with caution. Never since the world began had any new theory been started that had not met with the greatest opposition ; for instance, the discovery of the circulation of the blood, by the im mortal Harvey, and that of vaccination, by Dr. Senner ; both of them met with the greatest opposition, but their good effects were ultimately acknowledged. So, likewise, with respect to these pills, the greatest prejudice prevailed, but still among MI the faculty that had been called, not one bad produced a single patient who had boon injured by them. On the part of his client, however, many persons had been brought forward, who stated that they had received the greatest benefits from taking these pills. Under these circumstances, he trusted the ver dict of the Jury would be in fai-our of his client, and that they would mark their sense of the libel by the amount of the damages. The LORD CHIEF .lE:met summed up the case. Upon the second issue, the defendants having abandoned the plea, namely, that which imputed insolvency to the plaintiffs, the jury would find a verdict for the plaintiffs, giving them such reasonable reparation as they thought proper. Undoubtedly .the publica lion by the defendants of the article which had bean read, just on the eve of the trial, was most improper and injn The jury would say, however, what injury the plaintift;' had sustained through the publication of that part of the libe; to which the second plea referred. With respect to the moi.e material part of the libel, namely—that which imputed to the plaintiffs a wholesale system of poisoning, the jury would con sider how far the other plea justifying it was sustained by the evidence. His Lordship here read over that part of the libel and the plea which applied to it, and put it to the jury to say whether the bills were calculated to lead the ignorant classes, amongst whom these pills were most likely to be in use, to suppose that they were applicable to all cases and under all circumstances, and that they could not be taken in too large quantities ; whereas they had the evidence of the eminent me dial gentlemen who had been examined to prove that gamboge especially is a powerful medicine, which required to be cau tiously administered and narrowly watched. His Lordship read over each part of the plea separately, and then pointed out the evidence which applied to that part particularly both on the one side and the other. He concluded by directing the jury, if the plea was proved to their satisfaction, to find a ver dict for the defendants on the first issue ; if not, they would find for the plaintiffs on both issues, with such temperate da mages as they thought the plaintiffs were fairly entitled to. The jury retired at half-past six o'clock, and at a quarter to eight they returned a verdict for the defendants on the filet issue, namely, that which related to the dangerous character of the medicine ; but added that they thought that the pills might be taken if administered with proper care and discretion. On the second issue, namely, that relating to the solvency of the plaintiffs, they found a verdict for the plaintiffs. Damages 2001. SPORTING INTELLIGENCE. TATTERSALL' S-YESTERDA Y. THE DERBY. The Derby betting commenced about the usual time, and conti nued with considerable animation until half-past six—with what effect the subjoined list of prices will show. Three or four parties took 8 to 1 about Brother to Bay Middleton, in ponies or fifties, and obtained for him the call of Jereed. whose friends were rather shy. Bto 1 was offered against each at the close. Wintonian and Mango declined to 20 to 1 (takers), and Flare-up to ten points more. 30 to 1 was taken about Alahometan, to win 12 or 14,0001. ; Troilus was backed at 32, 31, 30, and 28 to 1 in hundreds, and his companion, Hybiscus, retrograding to 40 to 1. Defender was not mentioned till near six o'clock, when two or three of his friends " took heart," and laid out a few ponies at 20 and 22 to I, so that his case is not altogether hopeless. No other material alterations will be found. The following was the state of the betting at the close of the room :- 6 to 1 agst Lord Jersey's lot—take 13 to 2 8 to I agst Lord Jersey's Bro. to Bay Middleton—offered 8 to 1 agst Colonel Anson's Jereed—offered 12 to 1 agst Captain Gardner's Phantasima colt—take 14 to 1 20 to 1 agst Lord Exeter's Dardanelles—offered 20 to 1 apt Mr. Wreford's Wintonian—taken 20 to 1 agst Mr. Greville's Mango—taken 22 to 1 agst Arr. Sadler's Defender—taken 28 to 1 agst Mr. Walker's Glider—offered 28 to 1 agst Lord Exeter's Troilus—taken 30 to 1 agst Mr. Osbaldeston's Alalionietan—taken 30 to 1 agst. Lord Lichfield's Cartoon—taken 30 to 1 agst Lord Stradbroke's Caravan—taken 33 to 1 agst Lord Chesterfield's Aliss Clifton colt—taken 35 to 1 agst Alr. Cookes's Norgrove taken 35 to 1 agst Mr. Savile's Brother to Elis—offered 40 to 1 agst Lord Exeter's Hybiscus—taken 45 to 1 agst Mr. Thornhill's Brother to Mouche—taken 2000 to 40 agst Mr. S. Stanley's Rattrap taken 66 to 1 agst Mr. Theobald's Tredville colt—offered 200 even between Jereed and Brother to Bay Middleton 1000 even between Caravan and Defender THE OAKS. 8 to 1 offered agst Mr. Thornhill's Egeria 9 to I agst Lord Chesterfield's Vacuna (sister to Scrogging) 9 to 1 agst any other. CORONER'S INQUEST. SEDUCTION AND SLTlClDE.—Yesterday an inquest was held at the Edinburgh Castle, near Stepney Chu rch, before Mr. Stirling, on the body of Caroline Thurlow, aged 17, who drowned herself under very distressing circumstances. It appeared from the evidence that between seven and eight o'clock on Thursday evening last one , of the lock keepers of the canal was passing over B en Jonson s Bridge, near Rhodes's Well-road, when ho discovered a bonnet and shawl. He im mediately procured the drags, and caused the canal to be drag ged, when the body of the deceased was found. Life was quite extinct. On the following morning her parents, who are creditable •persons, residing at S tepney , rece i ve d by the post a letter from their unfortunate misguided child, in which she stated her intention of d es t roy i ng h erse lf, as s h e wa s ti re d of life. She expressed her fears that a young man who had kept her company, and had lately gone abroad, would never return. She ended the letter by begging forgiveness of her parents, and stating that her bonnet and shawl would be found on the Ben • Jonson Bridge. The Coroner observed there could be no doubt but that the poor girl had a dread of becoming a mother. The Jury returned a verdict of " Temporary Derangement.' BURKE'S HISTORY OF THE LANDED GENTRY. —This important and truly national work draws towards its. conclusion. The Thirteenth Part is published, and arrange ments, we understand, have been made for the appearance of the three concluding Parts during the present season. Sub scribers will do well, therefore, to order the completion of their sets as soon as possible.