The Sun. — London, England, 1823-05-27 00:00:00

evening. it was no part of the secret ankles respecting viliith the Right Hon, Baronet was questioning me. Was this part of what you subscribed to as an Orange rnartA—The •whole of it was part of the declaration of the (Jrangeman. Was this part of it ?—" That we will be true to all Orange men in all just transactions, neither wronging them nor seeing them wronged by others?"—l state this to have been part of the published declaration of the Orangemen, such it was no I doubt. But no part of it was secret, and understood the -Right Hon. Baronet to ask if this did not form a part of the secret articles. I wish to know if the Hon. Baronet entered into such an agreement or not ?—Unquestionably. Two questions were then put respecting parts of the declara tion pledging those subscribing toit not tosee a brother wronged of money, or otherwise brought into trouble. These passages the witness did not recollect. Was this part of the Orangeman's engagement—" We will .not carry away money, goods, or any things from any person whatever, excepting arms and•ammunition, and these only from our enemies ?" Diet the Hon.. Baronet subscribe to these words ?-1 never did, nor bevel ever heard them before.. Is this a part of the declaratiorshanded in by the Hon. Baro net ?—lt is not. Is what follows part of it ? " And we engage in ten hours time, or in whatever time may be required if possible, and if not hurtful to our families, to attend any summons from the Master."—l never heard of this. Is this one of the rules ? " That no man should be admit ted a member without the unanimous consent of the body !" There is no such rule that I know of. A person of course cannot be admitted unless the body generally are favourable to him. Is what follows a part of the rules ? " A man shall keep fire secrets of his brother as his own, excepting in cases of murder, treason, or perjury, and that of his own free will." — I know of no such words. Are there none such ?—Not that I know of. Is it not one of the rules that no Roman Catholics shall be admitted on any account?--Certainly not. Does the Hon. Baronet recollect a paper being printed for gratuitous distribution in the year 1020 ?—I do. Was this the title of it, " Extracts from the Rules and Re gulations of the Orange Institution ?"—The word " Extracts" I believe was not in it. The paper in question I gave in at the bar of the House. Does the Hon. Baronet recollect a paper relative to sepanite regulations for all Purplemen ? 'There is such a part of the In stitution ?—There' is. What are the words by which a Purpleman is distinguished from an Orangeman ? Mr. Secretary PEEL rose to order, and the witness was ordered to withdraw. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, the examination having arrived at this point, he desired to call the attention of the House to the question which was about to be . put. On a preceding discussion, a large majority came to a vote, which he considered as virtually deciding against such a , question being put.—(llear, hear, from the Opposition.)—lle .certainly thought the House had virtually conic to the decision that it was best not to press ts - question upon the witness, for . words which he conceived himself bound by oath not to disclose. , They were now discussing the same question. He had no hesitation in admitting that the House had a right to an answer, and if it .were withheld, he would not say to enforce it, but to resort to that alternative which was in their possession. But it . was at all times open to the discretion of the House, whether any particular question should be put, to a witness or not. He did not thing.:the tranquillity of Ireland was likely to be pro. • united by sending this witness to Newgate, and it did appear to him necessary to the enquiry that this question should be ~ e ither answered or put. There was now a Bill upon the table ; putting an end to all these secret oaths, and in a fortnight they would be illegal in Ireland, as they already were in England. The question was therefore clearly unnecessary for the purpose ,sof getting at or suppressing their symbols and agreements. Was it, then, necessary, for the purposes of this enquiry into the conduct o f the and Grand Jury ?—(llear, hear!)— . At all events the Right Hon. Baronet must first mliew that there was necessity with a view to that object. He Should not con. :sent that the question be put without first taking the sense of . the House upon it. Sir J. NEWPORT contended that the question was per. fettly relevant to the Inquiry, and ought to be put. The ob ject was to inquire what the obligations of an Orangeman were, when the Sheriff had knowingly appointed Orangemen upon the panel. The question now was, whether the privileges of that House were to be set et nought by the agreements and symbols of that society. The adjournment of the House the other evening he believed had no such object its that of avoid ing a repetition of the question. The House was at the time very much thinned, owing to the lateness of the hour, .and not in a state to conic to a decision of so much im . portance. been _And even if such a decision had conic to, there Luta since been time for consideration, and it was 9uite competent for the Committee to adopt another course with the present ques .tion.. The Right lion. Baronet complained of having been mis ,ropresented in what he said of the Scripture the other day, and .also of the want of candour in the lion. Member, who went up stairs to search the Bible for the passage he had mentioned. • It..was true that the Anialekites were not mentioned but it was the Amorites. He thought the Hon. Member might in candour. have told this to the House. He should like to know whether .this reluctance would be Observed towards a United Irishman if' lie were to refuse an answer upon the account of having taken a secret oath. He knew that in other times no such obligations of ia United Irishman would have been allowed as an excuse, even .to the infetior (Accra of justice.; and that answers were very often extracted from them in a very cruel way. lithe:House were of opinion that it was not relevant to the present inquiry ,to know what were die symbols and pledges ,by which Orange- Then were bound, h e did not k now w h at was relevant. If they came to such a decision, they would abdicate their rights, and no longer have th e p ower o f i nqu i ry . A 'witness had ' only to -snake a voluntary oath, and then refuse to answersuch ques. dons as he wished to evade. He trusted the Committee would not so far degrade itself as to abdicate its authority, and to ,(diva this Gentleman a triumph. The Right lion. Secretary of State had informed them that a Bill was in Parliament to put .an end to all these Societies. He hoped it would do so ; and it was not his fault that such measures had not been taken be :fore. But the enactments of that Bill would not at ail affect the question before them. It was not what Orangemen would be, that they wanted to inquire, but what Orangemen were when they were put on the Grand Jury by the Sheriff. Upon these grounds he thought the Committee would not prevent his proceerlins . witli the examination ; anfilieshould certainly press ,the question unless they interfered. Mr. CA LCRAFT said, that being the Member who moved 'the adjournment the other night, he could state that his inters. in so doing was not that which had been imputed to him by the Hight lion. Gentleman opposite. The question now before the Committee did not.appear to him to he pertinent to the inquiry ; but if his Right lion. Friend thought differently, ,he had a right to put it. Mr. GOULBURN did not rise hi maintain any such doe. trine as that thole who were brought to the bar should refuse to give evidence upon any subject which the House should re. Anise of them. But he stood there to discharge the Parlia +in entary duty of etiery individual wholtad a seat in that (louse, to express his opinion as to whether o,que.stion witsproper to be ,put' or not. lie thought this was a question which it would neither be disereet our desirable to put in any view of the .Case. The flight halt. Baronet said that it was necessary to Shoe what were the obligations of the Orangemen. placed qipon the Grand Jury panel, as that was the point upon which .it was charged. that the Sheriff had acted improperly.. , But j, , t, was necessary, .before this evidence c0 ., 1LE5:414; t 17 1 : 11 ehui.ll,l be proved .to routomt.:' •"' A" 1,<...-1)-- suit tur 35 the evidence had gon pearcti that the Sheriff was not an Or 4. „,ange'it i ew I ,'° - on. seenied thinP i Qf a l2 4 l4l F 444l46lllll Wr ii iie".tttto4Un aronet . of 'authority -taut the,ktTat nu - not•yet been put to -the Witiiess, - ithit the 41. . 44 '0 mut the choice of stopping before it proceeded to that point. Ile was sure that this exercise of the power of the Geese in this case would be productive, of the most disastrous results in Ireland and therefore, as al honest man, he could Blot I ot agree to it. If the present were the ease of u 'United Irish man, he should meet it on the saute principles. Mr. ABERCROMIIV said that this wire one of the most itnportant questions which could come before them, Goth as it regarded the dignity of the !louse and the safety of Ireland.— With regard to the itnmediate,question proposed to the wit ness by-Ids Hight llou. Friend, he thought it was the most re., levant to'the Nulty than any that could be devised by the wit of man, The whole question turned upon mite obliga tions to which Orangemen were .bound. iVliat W 444 the charge Against the High Sheriff'? Why, that he h a d appointed Orsnge Hear, hear !)—lf th e H ouse hesitated in net- Mg upon its rights and privileges, this witness would go home .and be met m triumph by all the Orange party the principal ('nut of which were those who received the s a l a r i es w hi c h t h at louse had lately been voting. The object ought not now to b.-, that of avoiding to give a triumph to either party. Such language was now pusillanimous; all they had to do was to see who wits right, and to support that party which adinini stored justice with impartiality. If the witness were to be al. lowed to refuse answering the questions of the Committee, it Would be giving him the — greatest triumph and victory over a fallen House of Commons, • If he were sent to Newgate, 'though he should be afterwards met by all the Orangemen in Ireland, he would think that a contemptible triumph in cont- parisou to that of refusing to answer questions with impunity. Mr. PELIfAM (who spoke from under the gallery) was understood to.say,_ that after what had taken place on Friday evening last, the liotse, he tholight, was precluded from grant ing the indulgence whieh.Sir 4 B. King solicited 1n thispar :jetties. Otherwise, he (Mr. Pelham) would have been happy a have conceded it. Mr. Secretary CANNING wished to state shortly the rea son why, if this question came to the vote, he should vote against allowing it to be put to the witness. If he h a d any doubt of the po wer o f th e House, which was so unquestionable, he should have no difficulty in consenting, to the•question being put. But being fully convinced of their power to rule an un ruly witness, be would no press forward in a cou rse w hich h e deemed likely to be most disastrous in its effects upon the state of Ireland. This was the opinion he entertained the other night, and, after forty-eight hours reflection, lie did think it would be mdie discreet to abstain from putting such questions, than to have to deal with the questions of penalty where the re fusal to answer should be made. There being a Bill before the House for putting down this Orange Society, and having evidence already of what the Society is, he did not think it worth while, for the sake of gaining further evidence upon the subject, to incur the danger of such consequences as were justly to be apprehended. This appeared to him to be the narrow compass of the question before the committee. But if' the majority should come - to a different decision upon other. grounds, he should not be the person to interfere at any other stage to oppose the regular course of the House in such cases. With regard to the particul a r party to which the prisoner belon g ed, belied no feelings of partiality whatever ; if a United Irishman stood in the same situation, his conduct would be regulated by the same considerations, and if the effect would be to throw discord and disturbance into Ireland, he would abstain from compelling him to answer particular questions. Mr. BROUGHAM expressed his wish that; instead of put ting this question, his Right Hon. Friend had repeated the one which the witness had so pertinaciously and so contumaciously refitted to answer. If the House desired to retain the shadow of the power of obtaining an answer to a question put through the Chair, it must first have an answer to the former question. It was too late to take any other course ; it was too late to talk of expediency. They had determined to go into an inquiry opon the conduct o f t h e Sheriff' for packing a Jury. Th e Sheriff had bragged of having an Orange panel in his pocket. Colonel BARRY rose to order. He did not think that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had a right to assume th ese charges as proved w h en t h ere was already evidence against them. Mr. BROUGHAM said, he had before had occasion to re mark upon the cinuleur, and acuteness, and abilities with which the Right Hon. Gentleman had conducted one side of the in quiry, and be was sure it was only the heat of the moment which had led him out of that line. lie certainly had a right to argue upon what was before them in evidence, although he did not' a s sum e i t t o b e prove d. It was in evidence that the Sheriff had exultingly said he hail a good Orange panel in his pocket. And since he was dragged jr.to it, he must say that lie never saw such a failure as the attempt to contradict it. They took the most extraordinary means— Mr. PLUNKETT rose to order. His lion. and Learned Friend was departing from the rule he had laid down. Mr. BROUGHAM said, his Right Hon. and Learned Friend was quite right,' but he would see that he had been dragged into this course of remark. They at least had it in evidence that such an assertion had been made by the Sheriff; and could any man then say, that to inquire into what these Orangemen were was irrelevant ? But then it was not discreet to examine on such points. These silken phrases might suit the taste, but it was absolute effeminacy to talk so in such a case as this. Discretion was the better part of valour—(a laugh)—and the public would see what it was upon the present occasion. Judg. mete too was a term used; and they all knew that it also meant that part of valour assigned to discretion.—(A laugh.)—And this was the determination to which the Right Hon. Secretary of State had come after 411 hours of sober, collected .reflection. Dignity ? too, had been talked of; but the House would lose all dignity, and authbrity likewise, unless it went back to the very question, which the Hou s e d ec id e d a l most unan i mously it would - have answered. But now this Deputy Grand Master of all the Orange Lodges put their dignity to flight upon his first appearance. The oth er n i g h t t h e question was put to him, which he contumaciously refused to answer. But now they were not to proceed even so far as to put any question of which he was not likely to approve. He came like another great personage who came before him—vent, (Loud laughter.)—This might be passed over in the House, but what would the public say and think when they saw such proceedings ? What would they think when they saw how the poor printers were treated if they came to their bar, and con. misted it with their conduct towards Sir A. Bradley King ? _it was said in another place by Lord Itedesdale (and he named him to honour him for his services, and for his authority upon such subjects), that the result of twenty 3'ears experience in Ireland informed him that in that ill-fitted country there was one justice for the rich, and another for the poor, and both ill.. administered. Ile had hoped that such a state of things were confined to Ireland ; but he found that the same state of things now existed in the British House of Commons. Their duty was to probe this inquiry to the bottom, and to deal equally with all parties. But let them not meet the Orangemen with Bills which they did not know would be carried, and which were intended to pronounce that to be illegal which the Judges and the Attorney-General, and almost every body else, had already declared to .be so. Let them not send back Sir Abraham Bradley King to the Orange Lodges with the triumph of having humbled and defeated the Parliament of England. Mr. WYNN said, that the Committee were placed in a choice of difficulties, and it was not easy to decide which was the best course to adopt. All questions proposed by indivi. dual Members were undoubtedly at the discretion of the house before they could be put, if there was any objection. He an ticipated in the first place, that such questions and difficulties would arise, anti upon that ground he opposed the inquiry. Buthe thought they must now proceed. The symbals of the Orangemen might be ostensibly used for the purpose of' know. ing . each other ; but if they were composed of passages from scripture, they might contain pledges of a very different de. seription. Suppose, for instance, a secret society selected for its sign the passage..." Ye shall bind your Kings in chains ;" there would he no doubt of the obligation to which that sym. hot would hind them. lie regretted differing from his Right Hon. Friends, but a sense of duty compelled him to think diet the question should be pressed. Sir J. NEWPORT said he intended not to press the ques. tion now, but to withdraw it without giving up his right to put it at any future period If he thought necessary. But he thought the former question ought to be answered by the witness. A desultory conversation then ensued as to the power of the Right Hon. Baronet to withdraw the question, which led to no decision upon the point, and he. withdrew it according to his first intention. Nr. Secretary PEEL expressed his objections to press the witness upon the subjec t o f t h e s y m bol s o f the Society. Ile had already asked him if there was any thing in them beyond the making one Orangeman known to another, and the wit ness answered in the negative. What he objected to was, that they should press for answers to t h ese quest i ons , merely to know what the paekagett were us signs ;' but If t h ere was a verse which allud e d to the .extermination of the people, he should not object to having that answered. After a few words from Mr. W. SUITSI, the witness was recalled, and Sir J.: NtWPORT put to him the following question:— From what part of Scripture are the passages taken, which are read to Orangemen? Mr. Secretary PBFL moved that the witness do Withdraw and objected to th e q U est i on , ; The witneieuvitli.l---- ,4„.eeeessaUßT repeated the eig eetteloe.Anit...-- - - - ft be putse tT .11,14,;.,4tax:f. , .eswe's eeon ea the motion, and said. hat this qtresnait was distinct from that upon which Ministers had just seven an opinion, anti without any inconsistency they might agree to it. The Hop. and 'Learned Member then read - the, minutes,;of the fernier evidence, and contended that the ques tion now was, whether the House or the witness should 'pre. vail. In answer to this question when put to the witness be fore, ho had referred them generally to the Old Testament. it was impossible for the House to feel that this was an answer to its question; and it would be acting deceitfully it' it declared such a belief. Mr. PLUNKETT thought it would he better to put the ques tion thus In what part of the Old Testament are the texts read to Orangemen to be found ?" Sir J. NEWPORT moved the question accordingly. Colonel BARRY said it would be dealing snore fairly by the witness .w ask him at one,: " In what hook, and chapterand verse in the Old -T estament, are the words to be found ?" Sir J. NEWPORT said he had not the slightest objection to put the question in this form, Mr. Alderman WOOL) thought the better way would be to put betbre the witness, as questions such passages as were sup posed to contain t h e wor d s ; he had no dqubt apostates enough would be found to suggest thent. Mr. Secretary CANNING entirely concurred in opinion with the gallant Colonel and the worthy Alderman. It' this question were to be put in the form suggested, and a ref usa l given to answer it, he should be inclined to draw the same in ference as the Right lion. Baronet had done respecting the meaning and application of the words. Mr. ABERCR WIRY thought the course proposed by the Right lion. Baronet was the best. , Sir JOHN NEWPORT also thought the course remit mended by the gallant Colonel was the best. Colonel BA ItRY thought the plan suggested by the worthy Alderman was better than his own, and he should be inclined to move it as an amendmmt. After a few word:, from Lord MitTort, Mr. ELLI:4 said, he tlNight it would be better to ask the witness whether the words, whatever they were, were - used as a sign only, hrmeans of which one Orangeman knew another. The 'question being put that the witness be asked, " In what book, chapter and verse in the Old Testament, were to be found the words read to an Orangeman on his admission ?" Mr. BANKES said, he considered the question as alto gether unnecessary, and irrelevant to the inquiry into the con duct of the Sheriff. If the question were necessary, he would vote for compelling the witness to answer it, notwithstanding the oath he had taken ; but not so considering it,he should cer. tainly take the sense of the House on the motion. Mr. J. WILLIAMS spoke shortly in favour of the motion, and Mr. K. DOUGLAS against it. The Committee then divided—when there appeared-- • For the Motion 87 Against it 117 Majority -—3 O On our re-admission into the Gallery, we found Mr. BROUGHAM on his legs addressing the Committee. He wished he could conceal from himself the tendency,of the decision to which the Committee had just come. In his opi nion that tendency was to encourage unlawful associations and unlawful oaths. Those who voted with the majority on the last division, from motives of religion, had, he could assure them, encouraged a practice which went to cut up all sound religion by the roots. These oaths were not only illegal, hut were irreligious and profane. This was the opinions of the Judges, who even thought that they were blasphemous oaths ; and for his own part, although he did not defend the conduct of the poor people who had been indicted, and punished for blasphemy, he thought the oaths in question much more objec tiOnable than their conduct. He thought, indeed, that they were the worst practical blasphemy. Instead of inquiring whether a question would be proper or improper, the Committee appeared to have decided an inquiry whether it would be agree able or disagreeable to Alderman King to answer it. He really thought !that, this being the case, the Committee should ab stain from humiliating themselves any further. Still, however, he advised his Right Hooourable Friend to go on with the examination. As for the oaths, the Lord Chief-Justice 'and the Attorney-General for Ireland had declared them to be illegal ; it was clear that Alderman King had been guilty of a misdemeanour in taking the oath; and yet the Committee had resolved to allow him to put tbrth that very misdemeanour as a shelter against his examination; or, at least, such part of it as was disagreeable to bins. This question involved the very existence of Parliament ; for no other question had ever, in his Parliamentary life, come before the House a millionth so im portant as this. The case of Sir Francis Burdett, some years since, was not like the present. Sir Francis had offered no ob structionto the proceedings of the House; he had spoken lightly of something. the House had done a month betore, and the House sent him to the Tower;. though the same doctrine about martyrdom bad been advanced in this case as was put forth in that. Mr. Windham, in particular, was anxious to deprive Sir Francis of the honour of martyrdom ; but lie (Mr. Brougham) had always thought and declared that the whole of the proceed. lass agamst Sir F. Burdett were unjust and illegal. Still he wished the present examination to be gone on with. He should he, sorry to see it given up in'ill humour. But, after what had been done in this case of Sir Abraham King, he really should like to see the House hereafter darting its vengeance upon some unfortunate. printer who had no friend at Court. If, on such an occasion, the printer were to say—" I belong to the Journeymen Printers' Masonic Society, and have sworn not to reveal what passes in it : my conscience is tender and I beg you will not pre ss me to v i o l ate my oat h . " If this should be the case, he should like to see any Minister ask the House to send that man to prison, and become a party to its own addi tional humiliation. If the House, however, were actually to do so, it would commit an act of suicide, and there would th en only remain to be d one w h at was suggested to be done by one who was sent to prison for it, when something which was now under the table was then upon it. There would only remain for them to be kicked and cuffed out of doors as they would richly deserve ; and for him who did it to lock 'the doors and put the keys in his pocket. Mr. C. WILSON defended his vote as one of the majority on the last division. He admitted that the Orange o a th w as perfectly illegal; and had no doubt of the power of the House, if it thought proper, to force au answer to any question, not withstanding that oath. Lord STANLEY here rose to order. He wished to know what question there was before the Committee. Sir JOHN OSBORN said, there was just the same ques tion before it as there was when die Honourable and Learned Member for Winclielsea addressed it.—(Hear, (tear, and a laugh.) he CHAIRMAN said he had not interrupted the Hon. and Learned Member, because he thought he was about to con clude with a notion ; and then he did not like to interrupt the lion. Member (111 r. Wilson) because he thought it but fair that, lie should have a fair opportunity of explaining himself in an swer to the speech of the lion. and Learned Member.--(Hear!) Mi. BROUGHAM said hi* omission to conclude with a motion was entirely an inadvertence: lie now moved OM the witness be called in. Sir F.M. OMMANNEY said he should oppose this, and should move that, the Chairman do leave the Chair. Mr. C. WILSON resumed.—He believed the question pro posed, and on which the Committee had divided, was irrelevant to the present inquiry,. and that was his sole reason for voting against it. The witness was then called in, and examined by Sir Join; NEWPORT. Are the following. words; or any of them, read to any Orange man on his admission ?—" Abstain ye not; but pursue your enemies; suffer them not to enter your city; for the Lord God bath delivered them into 'your hands."—Not one word of them. Or any words to that effect ?—None that I know of. What other texts of Scripture are read ? No answer was given. By Mr. ItnouGuAst,--Do the texts which are read consist of two or more words, or of entire sentences ? Mr. WETHERELL (referring t o th e ans wers given by the . m , witness on Friday night) objected to the question. `- Mr. BROUGHAM repeated the question; but it was again objected by Mr. WETILEILELL, and the objection was sop ported by i 111 r. V. FITZGERALD. Mr. ROIJUHAM consented to alterthe form of his ques tion, and put it thus :—ls there any verse in the 10th chapter of Joshua, from the Ist to the 19th verse, which is read to an Orangeman on his admission ? WETHERELLoIVet;ted also to the question in this shape. , Sir. Secretary PEEL supported the objection. It might happen that some innoxious verse or sentence was read : such as " Abraham begot Isaac," for instance : and yet, it' the wit ness refused to answer, it might be considered by the Right lion. Ban. that some very obj ec ti ona bl e sen t enc e was actually read. If the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would take any particular verse out of the nineteen, which he might believe to be the verse in question, there would be no objection to ft. Colonel BARRI' also spok e i n f avour o f the objection. If this course of examination were to be allowed, they might go through the whole of the Bibl e . This might no doubt be highly beneficial for most of them, but th e p resen t was not the proper time 'nor that House a proper place for such an esaTi l riatio le :;' The fair, open, and manly way would be to ask the_ r a t i t wmil, once whether there was any one verse read to an 1 0 ,- n, -.- -- importing hostility to any one dills Majes ' Pitilay suggested ~4 -- Mr. BROUGHAM said OK ' to witness's answer, by the Gallant C01 0ne 1 . ..441*i • e matter of opinion. This he not wpm a - + mica think the proper course ; neither, he Cakes (,t id he think the witness (of all persons) the lt most neither li l e lo rs r e e n n t o o r i l i e ti s k s ' t t i t t i a r- n a a n ,k Linioli the :i i t i ne ti s l it t his subject.fr and e V :M a ! did opinion of his own conduct. It was to ask him, if he was an unpeaceable man, to which, of co ur s e , lie would answer he tv,ls not. Audit was net a little reniarkable that this Kiconi liiendation of an open c ourse o f conduct came from those who shielded others who refused to give any information on the point, and who kept the Committee in complete darkness. The motion for putting the question being put from the Chair, Colonel BARRY said, lie should certainly press his ob jection. , , Mr. BROUGHAM said, he considered that as a symptom that Alerman King would refuse to answer the question. Colonel BARRI' said, that 'as the last observation conveyed an insinuation that he had sonic communication with the wit.. ness, lie begged to state that he had no such communication, either directly or indirectly. Mr. BROUGHAM said he had no intention to 'convey such an insinuation ; but he had no doubt the objection would be taken as a signal by the witnees. Mr. Secretary PEEL said that the remark of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman conveyed to his, (Mr. P.'s) mind, and, he believed, to that of every impartial man who heard it, an in sinuation that the Right Hon. and Gallant Colon e l h a d sonic communication with the witness. He, (Mr. Peel) b egge d to know whethe r th e Il on. and Learned Gentleman would act i out, t o 4 n the indanmoetsl y u : g e g otoe e p s a t ts io kd n lthi l s i e c atiett l n i;. esla P sti . av ) se l ,t ul oh d aen ta y( thek mp e a n rr.tipc i l? l a i sr b hv e r oeu t r y lsde t o?tili If o h w e oppose the motion. ABERCROMBY said, that if his Hon. and Learned Friend took his . advice, .he would not accept the alternative, proposed by the Right Hon. Secretary, or submit to go on with an examination in the form prescribed by those who took such ditierent views of the subject from his. For his own part, he now thought the inq u i ry was altogether useless ; and t h at i t would be better not to go on with it. Mr. BROUGHAM said he would put a question, in sub. stance similar to one which had been put to the witness on Friday night, and not obj ecte d The question on F r id ay was, " Do you recollect what are the parts of Scripture read to an Orangeman ?" He now proposed putting the same question, leaving out the words, "Do you recollect ?" To this lie could not anticipate an objection ; for the relevancy of the question was not disputed on Friday ; and it was not even suggested to be irrelevant, until the witne ss b a d re f use d to an swer it. The Hori. and Learned Member then put the question to'the witness. Colonel BARRY objected to it. The Committee had just decided, substantially, that such a question ought not to be put. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that if the Committee had al lowed the question to be put on Friday, and would not put it now, after what had taken place, the world would not be at a stop to find out the true reason for its not being repeated. They would see the Committee did not dare to put the question. Colonel BARRY said he took the objection because he con ceived that the question proposed to the witness, which the Committee had in substance decided, should not be put to him. Mr. BROUGHAM said, he should not take the sense of the Committee on the motion. He now thought that the proceed ing was a perfect mockery, and that every step in it brought additional humiliation on the House. Mr. C. lIUTCHINSON entirely agreed in the opinion of his Hon. and Learned Friend, and thought the Gcivernment had much to answer for. They had not done justice to the Go vernment of Lord Wellesley. Ile condemned the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers in that House upon the question brought forward by the Hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. Brownlow).— This motion was an hostile one to the Irish Government, and as such ought to have been met. and opposed by the Go vernment in that House. The matter would have been left altogether to its fate, but for his Hon. Friend, the Member for Westminster, who originated this inquiry. The question which it was now refused to put to the witness was the very question which would open the whole business, and exhibit the system in its true colours tinder which the Catholic population of Ire land was oppressed. Ile charged his Majesty's Government with having neglected their duty, and wishing that his senti ments in that respect should be put before the world, he should move that the Chai rman d o l eave t h e C h a i r, and ask leave to sit again that day six months. Mr. Secretary PEEL submitted that this was not the proper opportunitrio enter into a defence of his Majesty's Govern ment against the charges brought against it by the Hon. Gen tleman. Ile itas sure the House must acknowledge that his Majesty's Ministers had shewn every anxiety that the in quiry which the House had determined to go into should go as tar as possible.—( Hear !)--They had promoted this wish of the House to their utmost, and greatly to their own inconvenience. Mr. HUME hoped his Hon. Friend would press his motion. to.a division. Justice he thought it was plain the Government were determined should not be done to the Attorney-General for Ireland, and the Irish Government, and that bein g t h e case it was better f or a ll parties that the inquiry should be terminated. Mr. S. RICE spoke against the motion for adjourning the Inquiry for six months. Ile thought it would be unfair to all parties. Mr. GRATTAN intreatcd his Hon. Friend to withdraw his motion for adjournment. Mr. Secretary PEFL said, lie should be guided by the state. ment of his Right Hon. Friend (Col. Barry), or the: Right lion; Attorney-General for Ireland. If either of them said he had no other witnesses to cal], he should vote for the'motion,if not, he must oppose it. Col. BARRY said, that if the House was weary of the in. quiry, he had no objection to stop ca ll ing, any more witne sses . He considered the Sh er iff to be fully vindicated before the Com mittee; but he must produce other witnesses if any ulterior steps were to be taken in the business. Mr. CALCRAFT thought the Gallant Gentleman could not demand such a pledge from the House as to their taking no ulterior steps on this subject. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that it would be for the House to determine what it would do when the Report of the Com mittee was made to it. His Gallant Friend, therefore, must guide himself on his own judgment; if he thought other wit. nesses necessary, he (Mr. Secretary Peel) should oppose the adjournment of the inquiry. If not, the Inquiry naturally ter minated where it was. Colonel BARRY said, he only wished to examine one other witnes.a—Mr. Whistler. He would not examine Sir A. King, as the House Was tired of the subject. Mr. C. IL HUTCH INSON assured the Committee, that as far as lie was concerned he did not wish to found any ulterior proceedings on what bad passed. With regard to the inquiry he thought the House had gone too far to draw back ; but, as his Majesty's Government had determined that it should not go on in that way alone, which could ensure justice, he wished it to be dismissed altogether. The.question was then put, and negatived without a division. 311E ly m t il h E e ll o'a w th ho ta s Orangeman, tir ant Sir A. B. King was then called in and examined by an Hon. k e. e t n iai i n n e ti w le e m co a u k b i l n n g o o t f lea an rre Dray ail besides that passes, then, be revealed forbidden to divulge any thing which passes aithin the Lodge, excepting the words used as signs and tokens mq, and may not. Wat may not?--All that relates to the opening and closing of the I,odge. Much business comes bef ore and it de- Is variety' pends upon what it is, whether it may or may h em, notbe revealed- Is th ere nothing hostile to any class of his Majesty's sub kects in any of t h e ordinary business? —Certainly not—l never new of any such, nor do I believe there is. In continuation—l held the Otlice of Deput Ma of a Lodg e ; an d I retired from the situationthree years agstero, in consequence of a difference of opinion with the Grand Lodge relative to the diessing of the statute of King 'William. I was against it, not thinking it prudent. No political questions are, discussed by these Lodges, except that be one. By Col. BAnßY—There is nothing of any kind passes hos. tile to any of his Majesty's subjects. By Mr.tlluTTEnavormi—There is nothing in the Orrge nian's oath to disqualify him from doing his duty on a lury- There is nothi ng in the conduct of an O r a nge Lodge that I know of, t h at ought to give offence to any part of his Majesty's subjects. The Catholics havelately taken offence at them, but it has been without cause. Mr. II uME—I wish to know what is the purport of those passages in the Old Testament used in the making of an Orangeman ? Colonel BARRY objected to this question being put. Mr. HUME contended that was a legitimate object of the examination in which they were engaged. They had a right to know the purport at least of the passages ; for it might be a resolution to bang all his Majesty's Catholic subjects.—(Cries of" No.")—Ile maintained he had a right to say so, and since it came to that, he would say th a t lie in his conscience believed the records of Orange Societies would shew such sentiments. Colonel BARRI observed that such a supposition was ne gatived in time answer, that there was nothing hostile to the King's subjects in the proceedings of Orange Societies. Mr. DAWSON rose to say, that if there was any thing hos tile in the, parties then before the House towards his Milesty's 'subjects, it was in the lion. Member opposite. He had listened ,with great attention to all that had passed, and he must say that the obscurity of Oran g e p rocee di ngs , if any w h ere, resided in the efforts of the Hon. Gentleman, and certainly was not on his # ste of the House. If the question were put intelligibly, it 'would receive fair and open answers, to his disappointment.— He (Mr. D.) saw nothing in the conduct and principles of n. °rant:mien but what was admirable. He did not belong to five a c . B 4 . 4 aae ot n , orop Ids knowledge, had : ever been within himself become an O rat iggatre,im : r . i . r ., ...e.r oath, he should of men he had sat by most unwillingly to Clear trecx%ifig's which bad been cast upon them. He respected and admired their principles; and he defied the Hon. Members opposite to elicit or produce a single fact to disgrace them. It was the fashion to cry down Orangemen ; and that was why the witness had been so much persecuted. But nothing had beeti.sintwn_, Elvin ,his mouth but what did him honour..-4lleiii!)—Fo r the saute reason the Corporation of Dublin had been run down, al though by going hotly into the examination, it would be found to be as pure and uncorrupted as could be. With respect to 'Orangemen, lie must again say that it would eventually be found, that upon their loyalty alone must that House and the nation depend for the security of the best interests of Ireland. Mr. V. FITZGERALD wished to recal the Committee to the question immediately before them; but he could not do that without expressing his regret that his Honourable Friend, who had just sat down, had arrogated tome class of Orangem an exclusively the loyalty of the whole nation. He at the same time regretted that the • Hon. Member for .Aberdeen had given way to such a charge against the Orangemen, that their records would prove that they wished so hang all the Catholics of Ire land. He was sorry to see him re-ailirm that charge, and to call the House, hack to the topic under consideration, he put it to the House, whether some better reason ought not to be given for putting such a question as the Hon. Member's to the witness. Sir JOHN NEWPORT deprecated the language which they had just heard, which was the more fearful as coming from an officidl character (Mr. Dawson), claiming exclusive loyalty to the Orangemen. If the Hon. Gentleman meant to persuade his Majesty's Government that six out of the seve n millions of he population of Ireland were unworthy of bein trusted with t the defence of their country, and one million aloneg was loyal, he persuaded them to rest on an incompetent, frail, reed, which would lead them to their ruin. The Hon. Mem_ ber also ut his zeal, thought fit to make the panegyric of the pure Corporation of Dublin, forgettingthat the cont r ary was on record in the Repo rt o f t h e Commissioners of Inquiry, and of a Committee np stairs. Mr. Secretary PEEL begged to remind the House that they were acting judicially; be therefore thought it would be better if the Hon. Member for Aberdeen would abstain from dropping those words in the impetuosity of debate, which gave rise to so much extraneous discussion. With respect to the question put to the witness, it was p a lp a bl y t h e same which the Committee had decided over and over again should not be put ; it was therefore losing time to offer to put it again. Mr. HUME' considered his question as necessary to elicit truth, and he charged the Government who opposed it with wishing to suppress the truth. He was of opinion that the Orange party, as a body, must be exterminated before justice could be done to Ireland, and he should certainly press his question to a division. The Committee then divided . , when the numbers were — For Mr. Hune's Motion - - 77 Against it . - 131 Majority —5.1 Mr. HUME then asked whether in the passages read out of the Old Testament, on the admission of an Orangeman, or afterwards, any hostility was expressed on the part of the Israelites to any other nation.—l know not if there is. Are you sure there is not ?—(Answer inaudible.) inculcated • Are tho se p assages such as good-will and peace towards men in _general ? Mr. WETHERELL objected to this question, as involving in its nature those questions on die same subject which the Committee had decided should not be put. Mr. HUME contended that by reason of the first question having been permitted, the question now in dispute could not be opposed. Mr. SCARLETT contended that the question ought to be answered. Mr. ELLIS suggested whether it would not be more laudable in the Right Hon. Gentleman to get up and move the Inquiry. be prosecuted this day six months. Mr. Secretary PEEL hose toanswer the Hon. Gentleman, who, after dining in comfort at home, had come down to the House to recommend giving up the inquiry. With permis sion he would give the Hon. M em b er i ntormat i on. A Motion had been made by an Hon. Friend on the left, that Sir R. Heron should report progress, and ask leave to sit again this day six months. He himself had said, that motion might be carried if his Hon. Friend considered the Sheriff justified.— If, however, mere witnesses were to be called, it would he trifling with the House to propose giving up the inquiry (Hear ! ) • Mr. ELLIS assured the Right lion. Gentleman that he had - been in attendance during both divisions. It appeared than every obstacle was thrown in the•way of inquiry. The witness had so bearded the house ; had so triumphed over the House of Commons, that further enquiry could nut consistently go on. Mr. SCARLETT pointed out the difference of opinion be tween the minority anti majority. Those of the minority were of opinion that the present issue was - not essential to the pub tic peace of Ir e l an d. Th e ma j ority thought different. They were anxious to press the question because they considered it was of serious importance to the country. They did right. A general cry of " Question," was then heard. Mr. JONES said the Sheriff of Dublin was not an Orange man, consequently he could not be affested by the oaths of Orangemen. Why then should the time of the Committee be taken up, when the Sheriff could get out . of the charge as well as the Attorney-General for Ireland. Mr. BENNET said the Hon. Gentleman was summing up. ---The question was not whether the Sheriff or the Attorney- General was acquitted, but whether they should put a partieu lar question to the. witness. Sir J. YORKE said, to use the diplomatic language of tle Right Hon. Secretary of State—Conic what may; if a witness at the bar did not state what he ought, he should go to Newgate. • Mr. JONES then moved as an amendment, that the Chairs man do leave the Chair. Mr. D. SMITH opposed the amendment, under a belief that inquiry was necessary, in order to get more information re- I specdng the administration of Justice in Ireland, which re-. . Rimed change. I } N 'r (l ien o d bs s e a r i v d e l d e , Hon. Friend didtiZitro..Seco on,retar ifyhCisAHNoNn. t his that it n it ot was m ilhedis all l te h n i - s witnesses in justification of the Sheriff. If not give such an answer, he should say, that having in the first _ instance opposed to the utmost entering into the inquiry , he should think himself in a condition to abstain from giving, any. rote at all. Colonel BARRY was satisfled,the Sheriff stood justified. If the Hon. Baronet was voted out of the Chair, he should co_n cur in the motion; ,but if ulterior measures were in contemplii tion, he should feel it would be unpardonable not to call all his witnesses. Colonel DALY wished his Hon. Friend to close his case, and rest assured that the Hous e w o uld a dopt no other proceedings. Colonel BARRY, after that which had fallen from his Hon. F Friend, did not oppose the Lion. Bart. leaving the Chair. Mr. CALCHA T said it would be open to any Member of that House to snake a motion on' the evidence, and to teeth). mend the Hon. Member, if he had more witnesses, to call them. Ile wished to hear all the evidence and decide. Mr. SCARLETT considered the House in the state they `theestood with respect to the evidence, quite incompetent to decide. Mr. ELIAS had no desire to avoid inquiry, but he ex pected that the Right Hon. Gentleman would assist them with evidence. Mr. JONES said he should press his amendment. Sir JOHN NEWPORT remarked that the Inquiry was commenced by an Hon. Baronet, the Member for Westminster, then absent, and it could not be relinquished without his consent. Mr. Secretary CANNING was ready, su long as witnesses were to be examined, to go on. Mr. BENNETT said, the inquiry had answered his expec tation. The parties had mine out just as he expected anti wished. It was obvious, at least , that something ought to be done to cure the administr a tion o f justice in Ireland. He could not help thinking the House had come out of the inquiry with the best feeling. The patient fair examination of witnesses, with the best assistance afforded by particular persons to elicit truth had been beautifully manifested. tie for one was delighted with the votes in the inquiry, because nothing could be so good as opening the eyes of the Public to the system in the House, and out of it. The House then divided— For the Amendment Against it - . - 173 Majori On our admission t o the Gallery, we found Sir J. YORKE on his legs, expressing hope that the House would go on with the examination fairly and honourably. It was against all order for Hon. Members when a witness mentioned a passage in Scripture, to run to the smoaking-room for the Bible, and to move that the witness withdraw when any mention was made Of an Amalekite a Hittite, or a Burtlettite.—(A laugh.)— He thought the situation of Ireland deplorable, and was sorry to find the Irish Meinbers did not come forward in a proper way to strengthen 'the hands of Government, and tranquilize that country. Why did they not reside on their estates, and. if Captain R oc k en d eavoured to destroy or pillage their pro perty, try to to prevent him. Mr. lILYME wished a question, viz. " Are.there passages, such as preach peace and good will to man in general," to be put. The CHAIRMAN was prepared to take the sense of the Committee on the question whether it be put, when Mr. G. BENNLT moved an adjournment, observing that the lateness of the hour ought to induce the Counnitee to go no further that night. The Motion, after some conversation between Mr. CAL. CRAFT, Mr. 11. SUDlNElt,_and Mr. GOULBURX, was agreed to. The llo nuo resulned, the CIIAIRMIIN reported progress, .a .btained leave to sit again this day. SALE a AI'BELL. The 2d raading of the Game A Bill E was postponeti to Mondny. TRH NOVA 14 LIBRARY. Mr. HOBLIOUSE asked th , . el , .nefitchr of the rtast..; , l' r ,whether h e i n toil-tic:lt • ar - Dtlifg tifj , question resp.A: t inng's Library on Friday. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQUFR said, i;' ;.he House would allow hint to go into a Committee of Supply it was his intention to bring it on, but in the present state of thertainty House it was impos s ibl e t o answer ' t h e quest i on with any ce. The other Orders were then disposed of, and the House ad.. jourhed at ONE O'CLOCK. The cc Ertgilshnum,"of Sunday last, May 25th, is reprinted, and will be kept on Sale all this week. It contains the fullest particulars of the Fight, with a Memoir of Spring and Neate, the' privious Arrangements ; Arrival of the Mon at Hinckley Downs; the Ring ; the Eight Rounds. Account of a Second Battle, between Hampsire Pope and Bristol Parsons. The whole making Five of The Englishman folio columns. No Ad vertisements whatever are inserted in The Eng lishman Sunday Newspaper, which is a large folio Journal of twenty colum ns , o f th e same size as The Observ e r, It i s regularly published every Sunday morning, at the early hour of Four o'Clock, at Messrs. SMITIesi 192, Strand, Lon- Pau. The price of Th e gnglishman is Seven pence. VII Sunday last, durin the Morning Service, at St. Georges, tranover.s quare a f ema l e servant of a family in Lower tgroal.street, wa s ta k ou t o f t h e Church in a faint ing fit, mid conveyed hom e y some gentlemen's servants, where shy expired within te n 'lutes after.