The Sun. — London, England, 1846-05-23 00:00:00

RAILWAY COMMITTEES. (YESTERDAY.) HOUSE OF LORDS. GROUP I. LONDON AND YORIC. The Committee met again this day at eleven o'clock, the Earl of Lovelace, chairman. The case of Mr. Chapman, landowner at Hornsey, was opened by Mr. 140111. The Learned Counsel stated that the line of railway in terfered with his client's residence at Hornsey, and nothing but a deviation of the line would snit him, for as the line was at present on the plan, his residential property would be rendered entirely valueless. Mr. Chapman was called to speak to the injury which he would _ . _ Mr. Hughes, civil engineer, was called on the part of the pro moters. This gentleman said that the line, as laid down in the plan, was the least objectionable which could be made near Mr. Chapman's property. The next case was for Sir John Trollops, M.P., who alleged that the line would also injure his property. This was the last of the landowners' cases. THE EASTERN COUNTIES. Mr. Ararni said that he would now proceed with the case for the Eastern Counties. He would not trouble their Lordships with an •peeing speech, but would reserve himself till the conclusion of the evidence. The first witness called was Mr. Jasper Gripper, of Hertford, to rove that the Eastern Counties line would be the best accommoda tion for the traffic between that place and the metropolis. The wit ness was examined at great length by Mr. AUSTIN. After a cross-examination by Mr. DENISON, several other witnesses were called to prove that the Eastern Counties line to several towns would be of greater advantage than the line proposed by the pro moters of the London and York. The Committee adjourned at four o'clock to eleven o'clock on Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. GROUP X. The Committee met to-day at twelve o'clock, in Room No. 1 (House of Commons); present, Mr. Deedes (chairman), Mr. Arkwright, Mr. Vivian, Mr. Farnham, and Mr. Stanley. They resumed the censi deration of the 014,111.8110177, ATILIVILTS, -10)7D ECONICLANDS 7UNCTION. . . . _ Mr further cross-examined by Mr. FOR swig: Arlie th e co, the engineer. was unsel for the Caledonian (Glasgow, Garnkirk, and Coat bridge Railway Branches)• re_examination by Mr. ANDREWS, Q.C., the witness stated that the purc hase of the Glasgow University buildings was effected for the com pany on terms advantageous to both. The company would purchase a new site and erect new buildings for the university at an ezpeuse which would leave certainly a balance against them. But the buildings now standing would be very much available for the axes of ft railivay company. A stream also ran through the grounds, which was obviously an advantage to the railway, because " where- ever you have coals and water you will be sure to get plenty of factories." Mr. John Millar, civil engineer, was next examined by Mr. Ax- 'saws, in support of the evidence of Mr. Adie, whose mode of lay ing out the line he entirely approved of, in respect to the choiee of the direction, the levels, and the plan of working. Re regarded the estimates to be rather full, and certainly not below the probable cost. The witness had turned his attention particularly to this sub- ject, and he had no doubt that the Glasgow, Airdrie, and Monklands Junction would give better accommodation to the district than the two competing branches projected in connexion with the Caledonian. Witness is the engineer of the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway. The evidence of Mr. Smith, of Glasgow, architect and surveyor, and others, was then taken in support of the estimates, into the detail of which it is not necessary to follow the witnesses. It appears that the cost of erecting a new university, Including the purchase of the new site, would be 110,000/., from which should be deducted 48,9801., which the Company would receive for the land and materials to be sold, leaving 61,0501. as the cost of the terminus and station in Glasgow. The evidence for the promoters having been concluded, Mr. Errington, the engineer of the Caledonian (Dundyvan Branch), was called by Mr. FORSYTH, and gave evidence to the effect, that in the engineering merits, the cost, and the general accommodation to the district to be passed through, the Glasgow, Airdrie, and Monk lands Junction was inferior to his line. The Committee then proceeded to take the evidence (according to Mr. Duncombe's resolutions) respecting the THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 23, 1846. the South-Eastern traffic would pass over it in approaching the metropolis. Here, however, was a line which proposed to avoid the Croydon line altogether, while the Kent Atmospheric used two miles and a half of it. He conten.ed that the evidence was perfectly germane to the matter in dispute. It was to show that the Kent Atmospheric pr posed to use a line which had been laid down for the express 'purpose of accom modating the Mid Kent traffic, while the South-Eastern scheme altogether avoiding it, if the Committee granted that ilne, it would in volve an unnecessary expenditure of capital. The room was then cleared, and after a few minutes' consultation, The Committee decided that they could not permit the proposed course of examination to be adopted. The examination of Mr. Wilkinson was then resumed —Originally there was a more extensive scheme projected by the atmospheric company. They proposed at first to go entirely to Dover, and depo sited plans for that purpose, but in the autamn of last year it was . thought expedient to abandon a portion of the scheme. Accomfpaw nied by several of his co-directors he went over t it e l e r p el h a e n ti d u a pe e n. years ago to inspect the operation of the a ciple, and so satisfied were they with it that they take the advice of Mr. Cubitt and adopt it most thagreeedCryt don line , ; and successful. anhedric the experiment great advantage of the atmospheric principlehadproved tivemuee. larger number of trains were always at work, and consequentlya was, that the engines in passing from the atmospheric to the engine. The loss of time could be run at much less expense than by means of a locomotive locomotive difficulty would be removed. line was not more than two minutes , and it was hoped that in a very short time th e On cross-exam i n ation, Mr. Williamson stated that a portion of the original scheme was abandoned for the want of funds. The want of funds was occasioned by a change which took place in the public opinion of railways ; and railway directors, like other and larger po t en tates, were obliged to modify their plans to meet the views and opinions of the times in which they put forward their schemes. Mr. CATER proved that the South-Eastern line crossed several turnpike roads on a level. The traffic in these roads was very ex tensive, and he had no doubt crossing them would be attended with considerable inconvenience. Indeed, the railway crossing in this way was exceedingly dangerous, and the roads on the Croydon line which were crossed on a level were diverted at the request of the inhabitants of the Neighbourhood, and in consequence of several frightful accidents having occurred. Sir John Lubbock said the two lines from Bromley to Ockford were so nearly identical that he could not determine which was the best. He understood, however, that the atmospheric line was first in the field. He travelled every day upon the Croydon atmospheric line, and was convinced the principle had entirely succeeded. Mr. Ward, of Oldwood, a large landed proprietor, preferred the atmospheric line, because it was the cheapest of the two, and would in his opinion give more accommodation to the public. Mr. Wm. Bell, bailiff to a large landed proprietor at Beckenham, proved that the inhabitants of that neighbourhood thought they were amply accommodated by the existing line, and were therefore in favour of neither line. In his opinion the South-Eastern scheme, crossing as it did on a level with the Lewisham-road, it would be at tended with considerable inconvenience to the public. There was an extensive traffic upon the road, and all kinds of vehicles, sheep, and cattle were constantly passing and re-passing along the road. Mr. Coleson, a farmer at Sydenham, gave similar testimony with regard to the south ead and Sydenham road, which was crossed on a level by the South-Eastern line. Mr. J. W. Hilop, of Bromley, proved that previous to approaching the Itavenbourne Valley, which it crossed on a high embankment, the South-Eastern line passed a turnpike road on a level, and as there was a large traffic on the road, he had no doubt it would be attended with danger and inconvenience. The road was on a severe inclination ; and on a recent occasion he witnessed a serious accident upon it : the weight of a timber waggon going down it overcame the horses, and the waggon was precipitated with fearful and tremendous velocity to the bottom. The Kent Atmospheric line avoided this road, and the inhabitants of Bromley were therefore in favour of it. Mr. John Atkins, a landholder at Halstead, was decidedly in fevoar of the Kent Atmospheric line. The majority of the inhabitants In his neighbourhood, and in the neighbourhood of Seven Oaks, were of his opinion. The Atmospheric Company was in the field long before the South-Eastern Company. Mr. Bryan Burton, of Seven Oaks, and other witnesses, gave similar testimony. The Committee adjourned shortly after four o'clock till Monday, when the engineering evidence is to be gone into. GROUP XVIII. EXETER, YEOVIL, AND DOR.CIIESTER, AND LONDON, SALISBURY, AND YEOVIL. (Coitinued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.) The line between Yeovil and London at the station at Hungerford bridge was 124 miles, the total expense 1,600,000/. The gradients were of a favourable nature, the severest being only 1 in 106 for a length of two miles. The cross-examination of the witness was not completed when the Committee adjourned till twelve o'clock on Monday. GROUP MX This Committee met to-day at twelve o'clock ; Mr. Sotheron in the chair. LONDON, HOUNSLOW, AND WESTERN. Evidence on behalf of this line was resumed, Mr. Scott, traffic-taker, was examined at great length as to the traffic he estimated to go along the line. His total calculation of gross traffic was 130,585/. -Imong the items, in addition to the large one for road passengers, he calculated that one-third of the Great Western passengers from the Househill and Southall stations would take this line ; that 4,9971. would be realised from passengers that now went by water ; and that 2,6001. would be got from Egham and Ascot races. Deducting 40 per cent. for working expenses, there would remain a net receipt of 78,7361., or 11 per cent. on the whole capital embarked. The witness was cross-examined at great length on the part of the Great Western Company, but nothing was elicited materially to alter his examination in chief. Captain Moorsom, civil engineer, deposed as to the engineering character of the scheme. The line was almost a perfect 1 n'el, and of the most favourable engineering character. The whole expense of its construction he set down, if with an embankment and retain ing wall, 485,0001. ; and if with a brick viaduct, 535,0J0/. The Committee then adjourned. GROUP XXII. WAVENEY VALLEY. This Committee met as usual. Sir G. Grey, chairman. Mr. MURRAY opened the case at considerable length for several landowners who were opposing this line. Several landowners were examined as to the Injury caused by the railway passing through their property. IPSWICH, NORWICH, AND YARMOUTH. This case was opened on behalf of the promoters by Mr. Harrison. The first witness who was called was _ _ . The Earl of Stradbroke, who gave evidence of a favourable nature with regard to the line, and also of the benefit it would afford to the district through which the line passed. The Committee then adjourned till twelve o'clock on Monday. GROUP XXVI. SOUTH ESSEX. The Committee assembled at twelve o'clock to-day, Mr. M. O'Con nell in the chair, when the rebutting evidence of the North Graves end Company against this line was taken, and occupied the greater part of the day. The chief witness examined was Mr. Bidder, the engineer, who deposed as to the great ingress of cattle from Norfolk and Lincolnshire. According to this gentleman's evidence, the traffic on the South Essex line would be reduced from 48,000/. to under 30,0001. ; there would be a saving, he allowed, of a mile and a half in distance, but there would be three junctions on the line, on one of which there would be a delay of five or six minutes set against the saving of three minutes' in the distance. The delay would be at Tilbury, where the Gravesend traffic would be of value. This traffic, bowevar, would be interfered with only to the ex tent of the difference of cohesion between the South Essex and the Graves end carriage of goods and passengers. A long cross-examination then ensued, the result of which was to show that the agricultural traffic was great, and that if the whole of the traffic were obtained, as was anticipated by the promot. , :rs, one line into London would not be sufficient. This he thought idle, and had estimated the traffic as if it entered London, and did no: stop at the intermediate stations. The Committee then adjourned until half past eleven on Monday. GROUP XXXI. SOUTH WALES. (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)! Mr. COOKE followed on behalf of Mr. Hoskins, M.P., and entered at great length into the present communication, and the whole district proposed to be traversed, and held that the proposed line was not demanded by its requirements. That district required direct communication from the pits to those places where the coal was greatly in demand. The line would not effect this as it was indirect, and as the Forest of Dean Railway carried coals from the pits towards the north of the Berkeley canal to Gloucester, and he called upon the Committee to reject the preamble of the Bill. The Committee then adjourned until Monday. GROUP XXXII. (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)l BUCKINGHAMSHIRE (THING TO BANBURY). This line, for which Mr. Austin, Mr. Hildyard, Mr. Calvert, Mr. Hope, and Mr. Laing were retained, is promoted by an independent company in concert with the London and Birmingham Railway Company. It is opposed by the Great Western Railway and by Lord Carrington, Mr. Richards, Mr. Cripps, and other landowners, who appeared by Mr. Talbot. Mr. Cockburn, and Sir S. Phillips. Mr. HODS briefly opened the merits of this line. It is 40 miles long, starting from the Tring station on the London and Birmingham Railway, and passes through Aylesbury, Winslow, Buckingham, and Brackley, to Banbury, accommodating a large and important agricul tural district with carrying power to Birmingham and Banbury on the north, and to London on the south, for their cattle, coals, and lime. Mr. Thomas years,' was examined in favour of the project. Ha stated he was a land si:eward for 20,000 acres in the district through which the line passes, avd was well acquainted with the necessities of that country. No othk,r line offered equal accommodation for reaching the cattle markets .in Hereford, the coal-fields in Derby, and Stafford, and Leicestershire. He himself made 300,000 draining tiles annually, and would make double the quantity if the coals were cheaper. Mr. Humphrey Humphries, tarn?er, in Buckingham, stated in evi dence that it would be a great adv:mtage to Buckingham, and per sonally considered it would be so in the conveyance of bark, fell, and leather, for in the last article he calculated a saving of about les. a ton on the transit of it to London. Mr. Fraser, steward to Sir H. Verney, Whose land lies in the dis trict of Banbury, stated that butter sent away on Friday did not reach London before Monday, that the timber grown in the district could scarcely be got to a market, and the bark was sold for a very reduced sum. He calculated that a district of ten miles square exported annually 600 tons of butter, 9,000 fatted beasts, and 30,000 sheep, which he had no doubt would be greatly increased by facilities of conveyance. The railway would offer great g, vantages for the carriage of store stock, and give the farmers the opportunity them selves of attending the market to make their own selectiOn, The Hon. Sydney P. Pierrepoint and the Duke of Buckingham were examined, and corroborated the evidence which had been al ready given, both of them concurring in the proposed line, and giving it their utmost support. The Committee adjourned till twelve o'clock on Monday. GROUP LV. tween the statements of Messrs. Wm. and Benjamin Cubitt ; and upon the omission of coffer-dams, deck walls, purchase of certain land, and erection of stations, from the estimates. Upon the conclusion of Mr. Sergeant WILKINS'S speech, anhdad Deptford-roadt owith draw T t ru h the t o e p es p , os a i s ti opposition regardedofthe pposltion of the Haberdashers Company rtierhaving been satisfied by a clause the a Bill. As far as the opposition had Bermondsey, T,y:nashi M ne r ahcu ' ,y-w w laitnthed lt: b s raaoeaintdiwlSttre,hhh inserted oe t t t l I dtt e h h hi , n e ep re;brence to Grove-street, it depended en the result of certain nego tiations with the Admiralty. If the latter wero satisfied with the result of those negotiations, his clients would be satisfied also. Mr. RAvrtaxsox then replied to the speech of Mr. Wilkins. He pointed out the fact that the Bill had now no opponent but the Canal Company, and that all the persons whose land they would traverse were in favour of the scheme. It was not necessary to remove the existing bridge over the canal if the proprietors of the canal were anxious that it should remain, as the new bridge could be built without touching the old one. On the conclusion of the Learned Counsel's address, the Committee ordered the room to be cleared, and after a consultation of less than a quarter of an hour, announced their opinion that the preamble (as amended) was proved. The clauses were then read • several new ones were introduced, of which one was to give the power to cross Grove-lane on a level ; another was to carry the railway over the road of Trundley-lane, which was originally proposed to be crossed on a level. Some dispute arose as tolwhether there should be one or two side:arches for foot pas sengers. It was ultimately decided that there should be but one. The roadway in Grove-street is to be carried over the railway. It was proposed that the breadth of this road should be 30 feet, but Mr. Power represented that the trustees had it in contemplation to turn this street into a turnpike-road, and that it was necessary for this purpose that its breadth should be at least 40 feet. The Committee, after much discussion, determined to insert the clause as it stood. The remaining clauses occupied the Committee up to a quarter to five o'clock, at which hour they adjourned till Monday at 12 o'clock. STANDING ORDERS' COMMITTEES. HOUSE OF COMMONS. This Committee re-assembled yesterday at two o'clock;and de cided that the Bill for the DUNDEE AND ARBROATH RAILWAY EXTENSION should be allowed to proceed. SCOTTISH CENTRAL RAILWAY. This case was called on twice, but the parties were not in at tendance. MANCHESTER, BOLTON, AND BURY CANAL NAVIGATION AND RAILWAY EXTENSION. Standing orders in this case not dispensed with. MIDLANDS RAILWAY. Allowed to proceed.—The Committee then adjourned. MIDLAND AND EASTERN COUN- TIES RAILWAY COMPANY. - SPECIAL MEETING. A special meeting of this Company took place yesterday at the London Tavern, in compliance with the standing orders of both Houses of Parliament ; Mr. Cobbold in the chair. The CHAIIIMAN explained the objects of the meeting, and stated that his opinion was, that the line was most profitable. Mr. LECHMERE objected strongly to its being• proceeded with. The conduct of the directors, who had sanctioned the most extravagant expenditure, was most im proper ; a number of provisions) committeemen who had received shares, had not paid upon them, except by cheques which had not passed into the banker's hand. These notes could not be taken, as it was imperative by the sessional orders that they should have been paid upon. The engineering expenses were exceedingly heavy-6,9171. was an extravagant price. The solicitor's bill was exceedingly heavy-3,5001. was an enormous expense. Several other proprietors expressed their strong objection to the scheme being proceeded with. The CHAIRMAM said that they had signed the deed for the benefit of the Company when the shares were at the greatest possible depression, and had therefore rendered themselves liable to an enormous amount of money, and surely it would not be fair to come to a hasty decision without giving the directors time to show the charges brought against them were not false, and until they could justify the items objected to. A long desultory discussion arose as to whether there should be further discussion or not, and whether a commis tee should be appointed to investigate the charges, or whether they should dissolve. Mr. A. RANSOME said that he did not come into the direc tory till a late period, and he, though holding shies in a great number of lines, had never sold a share in his life, with the exception of five IL-,stern Counties' shares. He therefore was not a very in terested party, and he had only joined the line because he be;ieved it would confer great advantages on the country through which it passed, and he did conscientiously believe that it was a good concern, and would yet repay tire i.ro prietary. He did hope they would allow them a full inves tigation, in justice to them and to themselves, and t::ey would appoint a committee before they would dissolve the Company. The meeting finally adjourned, there not being a sufficient number of scripholders in the room to constitute it legally. The meeting did not separate until past four o'clock. It appeared to be the unanimous wish of the parties in the room that the concern should be wound up. RAILWAY SIT kRE MARKETS. EXETER, MAY 22. STOCK EXCHANGE.—The sales are—Devon and Central Cornwall, 30s.—Exeter, Yeovil, and Dorchester, 324. 6d.—Eastern CouilL:es, New Shares, 7 p.—Dublin and Galway, 3!4—Bristol and Exeter. New Shares, 104. MANCHESTER., MAY 22 STOCK EXCHANCE.—The sales are—Bideford and Tavistock, 21s. 6d. dis.—Blackburn, Clitheroe, &c., 1 dis.—Clitheroe Junction, I% dis. —Derby and Crewe, 3 1 A p. East Lincolnshire, 14 dis. Essex and Suffolk, I6s, dis.—Exeter, Yeovil, and Dorchester, le. 1.1 Glasgow and Dumfries, % dis.—Goole, Doncaster, Sheffield, &c., 11-16 dis. —Huddersfield and Manchester Railway and Canal, aE dis. —Lancashire and North Yorkshire, a dis.—Leicester and Bedi.rd, 5-16 p.—Liverpool and Bury, 81% p.—Liverpool, Ormskirk, and Preston, 14 p —London and York, pir—Ditto, Extension, 14 dis.-- Manchester, Buxton, and Matlock, 15.16 p.—Manchester and Bir mingham, Quarters (A), 8 c. p.—Ditto, ditto (C), 7% p.—Man chester and Hyde, % p.—Manchester and Southampton, 4s. d.s.— North British, Carlisle Branch, 1% c. p.—North Eastern, 17-16 dis. —North Staffordshire, 3% p.—Sheffield and Lincolnshire Junction, p.—Sheffield and Manchester, Quarters, No. 3, 3-16 c p.— Shrewsbury and Birmingham, 1 ,1 p.—Shropshire Mineral, 1 1 14 d:s.— South-Eastern and Dover, HalveS, No 4, ss. —South Midland, % dis. —Trent Valley and Holyhead Junction, 19s. dis.—Welsh Midland, 245. dis.—West Lancashire Coast, 14 dis.—West Riding Union, 48s. p.—York and Carlisle, 1 1 A dis. LEEDS, MAt 22. STOCK Excus.rtom. —The sales .are —Eastern Counties, York Ex tension, Its. p.—East Lancashire, No. 2,3 t p. —Huddersfield and Manchester, j s dia.—Huddersfield and Sheffield, 5% p.—Leeds and Bradford, 27y, p.—Leeds and Dewsbury, 1% p.—Manchester and Leeds Extensions, 23, p.—Manchester and Birmingham, Quarter Shares (C), 7% p.—Newcastle and Darlington Extensions, 8 p.— North British, Carlisle Branch, 225. p.—Wakefield, Pontefract, and Goole, New, 6 p.— Ambergate, Nottingham, and Boston, %.'!s Bradford, Wakefield, and Midland, 19s. dis.—Chelmsford and Bury, I dis.—Clitheroe Junction, 245. dis.—Glasgow and Dumfries, 10s. dis.—Goole and Doncaster, 16s. dis.—Lancashire and North York shire, Bs. die.— Lancashire, Yorkshire, and North Eastern, '2Bs. die. —Leeds and York, 235. dis.—Leeds, Wakefield, and - Midland, dis.—Leicester and Bedford, % p.—Liverpool, Ormskirk, and Pres ton, 3( 4 p.—London and York, 2s. 6d. dis.—Manchester, Matlock, and Midland, Its. 6d. p. —Northumberland and Lane,: , liire Junction, 225. dis.—North Staffordshire, 31. I4s. p. —North We, tern, 3s. 6d. p.—Oxford, Witney, and Cheltenham, 235. dis.—Sheffield, Rotherham, and Goole, 3B dis.—South Midland, Bs. p.—Welsh Mid lands, 235. 6d. dis.—West Riding Union, 4/. Ss. SHEFFIELD, MAY 22. STOCK ExcuANGE.—The sales are—Nottingham and Mansfield, Is. p.—Shefileld and Lincolnshire, Is. 6d. p.—Sheffield, Rotherham, Wakefield, and Goole, ss. p.—South Yorkshire Coal Railway, dis. HULL, MAY 22. STOCK EXCHANGE.—The sales are—Hull and Selby, Half Si:ares, 2714 —Blackburn, Darwen, and Bolton, 6% —North British, Carlisle, 47g.—Buckinghamshire, 445. 6d.—Chelmsford and Bury, 10s.—East Lincolnshire, 20s.—Goole, Doncaster, Sheffield, &c., 11. Is. and Barnsley Junction, 255. 9d.—Leicester and Bedford, 1/. 14s. —Leicester and Tamworth, 265. 3d. —South Midland, 33s.—Shrews bury and Birmingham, 3—Nest Riding Union, 4!. 9s. HUDDERSFIELD, MAY 22. STocK ExcusfmK.—The sales are—Huddersfield and Shy Junction, 17—Clitheroe Junction, 20s. dis.—Huddersfield, Hulifax, and Bradford Union, 314—Lancashire, Yorkshire, and North Eastern, 28s. dis.—Manchester, Huddersfield, and Great Grimsby, 21s. 9d. —Northwestern, 245. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Maly 22. Their Lordships met a few minutes before five oclock. SEES OF ST. ASAPH AND BANGOR. The Bishop of HEREFORD presented a petition from the clergy of Wenlock, against the union of the Sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. THE MINISTERIAL MEASURE. Earl DUCIE presented a petition from the parish of Lees, in favour of the repeal of the corn-laws. The Noble Lord also presented a petition from the agricultural labourers of Hampshire to the same effect. Messengers from the Commons brought up several Bills. FREE CHURCH OF SCOTLAND. Lord CAMPBELL presented a number of petitions, nume rously signed by inhabitants of Argyle, Pe r th, I nverness , Ayr, and several other counties in Scotland, praying their Lordships to adopt some measures to enable the petitioners to obtain sites for building churches. The Earl of ABERDEEN presented petitions to the same effect. YORK, MAY 22. MANCHESTER AND HYDE RAILWAY. The Committee on this group assembled at 12 o'clock, and aftor much conflicting evidence it was decided that the preamble was not proved. MANCHESTER, MACCLESFIELD, AND ASHTON-UNDER-LYNE. After some consideration the Committee refrained from any deci sion as, this line, adjourned until three o'clock on Monday, when their cosminsion will be stated. in case the - ~ pa -, - gone into this morning. e he __. should say, "Yo ia u m sh c a Again, Mr. Will Mr. Wm. Arthur Wilkinson, the Chairman of the Croydon C -h to aa uc sa h id a p tha lank ob or la a yi s e ti g ck de o w t b th t a h t e b l r ib ldr." pang, was the first witness called. The orftinal estimate of the u ll b s it e t t Croydon line was 140,0007. or 15,0001. per mile. At the time it w its had l not contempla t t h ed t t h h e em al . tera H t e io w n h c i e t a h id e docthisks, be e r the works n withconnexpion carried, an arrangement was made that the traffic of the South— Eastern scheme should pass over that line. for the clearing out o e fir. Benjamin Cabitt' f s statement, that Howhe allowed eemd 54)004. Mr. ALEXANDER, on behalf of the South-Eastern Mid Kent docks ! What were th e ir t ra ffic tables—their estimates—their ev scheme, reconciled with the fact was 4 that theirthe g p r r e e a am ter ble pa a rt beb o t f ? th D e ee l: s ill objected to th e ev id ence taking this course. referred to the dock? What Mr. Sergeant TALFouari apprehended that the evidence was per- docks ! docks! What were their clauses about ? Docks ! docksi ! f ectly relevant t o th e quest i on before the Committee, namely, which d euce about ? D oc k s ! A n d no w they had "docked" their scheme 'was the best li ne for the public. Now a very large capital had been a ' exPendad In the construction of the Croydon line on the faith that ni ;CV. The Learned Counsel also dwelt upon certain discrepancies be- :mospheric line, way IhO first Swat ExcromE.—The sales are—Axholme, 12. I la.—Eastern Counties, York Extension, 1% —Grand Union, Nottingham and Lynn, 12s. 6d.—lnverness and Elgin, 1/. Is.—Leicester and Bedford, It, Bs. 6d.—London and York, 21. Bs. 6d.—Mallon and Driffleld Junction, 21. 2s.—Manchester, Buxton, Matlock, and Midland, 3/. 2s.—New castle and Berwick, 24%—Newcastle and Darlington Extensions, 9/. 4s.—North British, Carlisle Extension, 21. Th.—South Midland, 11. 10s. 9d.—Wakefield, Pontefract, and Goole, 36%—Y0r1. and North Midland, New (East and West Riding), 101. 16s. 3d. MARKET INTELLIGENCE. (From the London New Price Current of May 22.) SUGAR.-1 o-day, although there were sellers of West India upon rather lower terms, still the purchases made were extremely limited in all descriptions, and did not exceed 110, making the total sales for the week 1,280 hhds and tre, and the decline in prices in that time is per cwt. The market closes heavily for all kinds. REFINED.—To-day Refined goods were less in demand by the home trade, bnt lower rates were not generally talcen— the Refiners are, however, more disposed to sell for forward delivery. In bonded Crushed Sugar a good deal ha: been done, and it is difficult to purchase first quality under 32s per cwt. EAST INDIA.—This afternoon, at public sale, 1,783 longs of Bengal Sugar were offerred, but nearly all taken in at full value. MAURITIUS.—An increased desire has been shown I,y im porters of all descriptions to realise this week, and the de mand having fallen off for Grocery as well as for „Re ining purposes, a decline on last week's rates of is per c - s. - t has taken place. FOREIGN.—For yellow and brown Havannah previous rates are insisted upon, but there has been little business transacted privately in any kind, and a public sal .e of 922 chests went off quietly at former prices. Holders of all kinds Of Brazil manifest firmness, and will .not sell but at f all rates. NoLitssEs.—There has been much inquiry after all de scriptions of West India, and higher rates have been c tfered, but business of moment has been prevented by the :.canty supply at market. Honey of low quality has been. again largely dealt in, and brings better prices —for the 1 • sorts a fair den: and exists. RICE.—The market has again been abundant] y Supplied with Bengal, and the quantity brought forward li aving ex cinciur Lvl Ye o'clock, in room 29 (New ceeded the warble of the trade, a further decline in prices of The Committee met again at tw 1 . 3d to 6d per cwt. has taken place. IThuses of Parliament); Mr. Ewart in e COFFEE.—This afternoon three parcels of Plantatio tt Ceylon wiwe present. LONDON AND Cizoirnom ("mam as to 1,813 bags, and consisted of some of the finest s pe :linens =OAT !MANOR). " 24 C- of mountain Coffee ever received from Ceylon ; tht ie sold with spirit, and at high rates. Mocha is dull of sal, s, and 75 Mr. Walker, engineer to .the Admiralty, was called and examined by Mr. Sergeant WILKINs on the part of the Flurry Canal Company, inland Rum this week, and the supply at marke1; 1101 Pkgs at auction sold upon lower terns. . Pla'rra.—There has been a better demand for L On Mr. Sergeant Wilkins putting some questions to the witness, with I reference to the docks, which forms one terminus of the proposed line. • Mr. Rawransow objected to any such questions, on the ground that the dock having been abandoned as a part of the Bill was no longer before the Committee. droop- The Committee cleared the room on this point, and on our return The CHAIRMAN said that no such questions could be put. Mr. Sergeant Wruiss—Very well, sir, we will proceed with the chain and seals without the watch. The Learned Counsel proceeded to examine the witness as to the large, buyers have been ' operationsbusinaersse transacted ulo Calcutta the there has been little and holders show more firmness.n sward being compelled to pay higher tab 's. In In Jamaica c . f o ly sort amore and p e r i x e t e e s r :Bed ar ~ scale, ing. In Demerara there has been little a • , ' in the value mischief that would result from the line,,crossing the canal on a swing for little variation has taken to be obtained at a further decline inprices, has been limited. Geneva has exportation, and prices are p ssing, La t. place. Although 1 It ' ,, ndY is . still the . e 'inland been in much better d lmand ear the water as that whi,ll was PtePosed by the pro- British Corn firmer. The deme nd for bridge so n Spirits is the Bill. The witness was oi opinion that, to cross the Of Still slack, but prices eady. moters of would be highly objectionable. H o w English Gin 22 per cent. underkeep 8 ' • canal in such a manner, as proof SiBs 10d, a nd 17 on the part of the promoters under 9s 4d. mined by Mr. Rawlinson cross-examined ittee wet' f * inquired whether the Comm. e o opinion that TICA.—Con ou has Mr. FLuND as to the necessity for takin not 6 g been sparingly dealt in, and pric es are entitled to examine witnesses yard, and as to the cost soi nil'Pouchong is dull of saleat 4d he was within.the walls of the dock , . certain property Committee thought . tilerdecision, that no but lower small. Twankay has been purchased with ca ution, of such property If the lie d le the kind of evl- demand, prices are not acctd H asked as to the dock, OP but no further advances • yson has been in good questions ought to be draw. Pekoe Teas have Bence he proposed to give, he would with with' regard to the , been one • . • The Committee were of opinion that evidence Properly a draissible. it _n i g their cheapness. A yin limited request notwith itand port of the railway within the dock was of the Jock itself foung Hyson upon for fair business has been transacted in Was only to the evidence as to the construction lied. Gunpowder occasions former terms. Prices ruling li av for that the objection on which they had decided app the demand t Mr. Allen, a surveyor at Rotherhithe, was then called, an d proved been sold to a fair extent. Ca l iver it at from 6d to Is 6 obe good. Inver ;al has Caper has been in -'r damend that its order the to carry the line down to the banks of - ... d, Souchong 10d to 1 fra which they must."."' to 2s 10d. Bohea is how h s fid, better . sort 3ls 8d would be necessary to fill up a part of the dock ever heavy of dis over. This would cost about 12,0001. 1 worth 2d to 5d per lb. posal, ata is only Creenwiell s Mr. Herbert, one of the directors of the London and = t SPICES.—To-day Malabar Pe Railway, gave evidence which went to show that there was no ne- pper was in bob . fu, d 315 bags at auction were sold at 3d to 3 'Jr demand, cessity for the proposed line. Ad f a good fair ittee on be.tyy bright. White is wanted, and 261 baby - • Mr. Sergeant Wtracnis then rose to address the Com 41 h flv disposed of at steady rates. F 1 t üblic sale part of the Surrey Canal Company. He said that were' •c-ie . ) rates. Mace is eill in re the end 12 cases went at firm rates. The mat . a more clumsy, ill-conceived, and incomplete plan than quest, ket fir Nut this had never been submitted to a Parliamentary Committee. men itEr i n a quiet state; 14 cases 3 bo xes wee t o- l ui.? 1. ower It was a line which the Bill affor ded no p owers to make. It was to .0 0 cases of Bengal Ginger were sold , terms. alter and remove a bridge which it co ntained no p owers to alter or term kind at 27sto 295 per cwt. , In. ddlitiL, home remove a single plank of. He , as co unsel, should advise his clients, consumption' • --ae tl , Bill passed, to station a body of men at that bridge, who l i in i r 0 t L t : r J dn n , cl a o , r i c intimated, that if an ef fort to unseat his Lordship w i i t d he L s in e co blu b BURGHS.—A gentleman f i 1 THE FALlarti C lately presented hinflk: p L if t t it o lon th in a g e a l g e a c i th ns rs t L of or zhs, to sound them on the subject of ma c, the expense would be defray& by parties in London, who were, of course, friends to "purity of election." Some few p arsons. we are informed, have agreed to petillon ; but we have re asen to believe that the great majority of the Laeral electors have resolved not to countenance the scheme in any way, Whatever the) London gentle man may pretend, we feel confident that his employe', 70) wdl ;urn ont to be Conservative Protectionlets•-4V4"an• CORN-LAWS. Lord MONTEAGLE presented several petitions from Bridport, Portsmouth, the Isle of Wight, and other places, in favour of the Government measure. ART- UNIONS. The Duke of CAMBRIDGE presented a petition from the members of the Art-Union of London, praying for the legalisa tion of art-unions. _ Lord MONTEAGLE wished to call the attention of her Majesty's Government to this petition, which was the first of a series that would be presented on the subject, representing the feelings of not only the artists of the country, but the great body of those who were interested in the fine arts. The Committee of the House of Commons, appointed in 1835, had made inquiries which showed that art-unions had been attended with the most benefeial consequences wherever carried out. The amount of capital which had been devoted to the pur poses of art by the; art-unions exceeded all the votes which Parliament had ever given for that purpose. They had done mere for the promotion of art than the Legislature ever had done. They had applied their encouragement to every branch of art,—they had given prizes, as Government had done, for the best designs,—they gave prizes also for the best productions in stone and marble. They had extended, too, their association over the greater portion of the earth, and a letter had been received that very day from China, giv ing an account of the establishment of a branch of the art. union in that empire. It was scarcely to be believed that, in defiance of all the experience which they had had on this sub ject, any doubt should exist as to the desirableness of le galising art-unions. A Committee had been appointed by Parliament, who had laboured sedulously for two sessions, and they reported in the most unqualified manner that these associations should be legalised. It appeared that the art-unions were as anxious as any other society to prevent abuse, and they prayed their Lord ships to give their sanction to a Bill authorising the Crown to grant a charter, subject to such conditions as might be pro posed. That was the utmost extent of their request, and when their Lordships considered that they had released parties from debts contracted at race-courses and gambling-houses; and when they considered that they had in the course of last year interposed to protect a great bodylof the people—those con nected with the newspaper press—the artists of this country were not asking their Lordships too much to afford them a similar protection. Lord BROUGHAM said he was exceedingly rejoiced that this subject had been brought forward as it had by the illus trious Duke who had introduced it, and the Noble Lord who had supported it. His own opinion in favour of those soci eties was very strong, and therefore he would give this petition his humble but warm support. And let him say that there never was a greater delusion than that which people laboured under who opposed art-unions on the ground that they came under the class of lotteries. Other trades contended that they would have as good a right as art-unions to have their lotteries; but he denied that trades required such aid; but pictures and articles of taste did require some such encouragement as art unions afforded, and therefore he would cordially support the prayer of this petition. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition, nu merously signed by persons of great eminence in their profes sion as artists—among the names attached to the petition he saw those of Eastlake, Ross, Barry, Westmacott, and others— praying their Lordships to adopt some measure for placing Art- Unions on a more permanent footing. Lord BROUGHAM would ask, in connexion with the name of Barry, who, it appears, had signed the petition of the Noble Marquis, whether there was any hope, if there was hope at all remaining, when the report of the commission on the new Houses of Parliament would be laid upon their Lord. ships' table. _ _ . Viscount CANNING was informed by one of the gentlemen forming one of the commission, that the inquiry had been of a more complicated nature than was expected. The report would therefore take some time before it was completed. Lord CAMPBELL thought this inquiry must surely be carried on in the Court of Chancery. He thought it would not be of so protracted and serious a nature as this case of Barry v. Reid. The Marquis Of NORTHAMPTON and Lord MONTEAGLE pre sented petitions in favour of Art Unions. ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. The Duke of 'WELLINGTON, after presenting a potitif.n from the Chamber of Commerce of Manchester, in favour of the Corn Bill, stated that he should on 'I hursday next move that the House do adjourn for tke Whitsuntide holidays to the Thursday following. CORN BILL. The Earl of BANDON presented petitions from places in Ireland against the Corn Bill. The Noble Earl said that he could not support the prayer of the petition as he did not par ticipate in the alarm that was felt by some persons with re spect to the Corn Bill. CASE OF MR. GEORGE MITCHELL. Lord BROUGHAM roes to call the attention of the House to one of the most cruel cases of hardship that had ever come under his notice. He had to present the petition of Mr. Geo. Mitchell, formerly a clerk of the House, from which situation he had been dismissed. The petitioner stated, that in the year 1845,frosn an accident that he had met with, his face and head had been greatly injured, and his sight permanently impaired. Several years ago he had been attacked with epilepsy, by which he had lost the use of his right side. He was also afflicted with ulcerous swellings in his legs. In fact, it appeared that he was subjected to every malady that could afflict the human frame. Through his maladies his attend ance on his duties were necessarily irregular, and he had suf fered exceedingly in the loss of his situation at the age of thirty-six. The petition, which was dated the Strand union workhouse, prayed that their Lordships would extend their benevolence to him, and grant him such assistance as it was in the power of the House to bestow. The Earl of DEVON said it was an unpleasant task to in terpose at any time between individuals and the benevolence of the House ; still he was bound to say that the petitioner was placed under the chief clerk of the House, but his conduct had been such as made it the absolute duty of the latter to remove him from the office he held. More than this he (Lord Devon) would not say.—(Hear, hear.) Lord BROUGHAM said the Noble Lord had totally mis understood him. The petitioner did not complain of having been removed, he merely asked their Lordships to extend their charity to him. LORDS lIARDINGE AND GOUGH'S ANNUITY BILLS. The Duke of WELLINGTON moved that these Bills be read a first time and printed. The Bills were accordingly read a first time, and ordered to be printed. SEES OP ST. ASAPH AND BANGOR. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY presented a petition against the union of these sees. BISHOPRIC OE MANCHESTER. The same Most Reverend Prelate presented a petition praying that a bishop might be immediately appointed to the newly established see of Manchester. THE CORN BILL. The Marquis of NORMANBY presented a petition from the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of Kingston-upon- Hull, praying their Lordships to pass with ou t d e l ay t h e Mi n i ster i a l Corn Bill. The same Noble Marquis also presented a petition from a town in Ireland, praying for th e l ega li sat i on o f tenan t rights in that country, intimating, at the same time, that he did not thereby wish to express any opinion upon this very difficult subject. STATE OF CRIME IN IRELAND. The Marquis of NORMAN BY then proceeded, amidst cries of " Order," for the purpose of asking for a return of the murders, and attempts at murder, in Ireland during each month, commencing from the let of July in each year, distinguishing the hours of day or night at which such outrages were stated to have been committed by the constabulary_ force. He felt it necessary to ask for the attention of the House to this subject, the more especially as he intended to make a few observations upon the conduct of her Majesty's Ministers, in connexion with the Bill which had lately passed this House, and to the language used by the Right lion. Gentleman at the head of her Majesty's Government in another place, in which he had been personally alluded to. It did so happen, that about six weeks after the session had commenced, and when he was unavoidably absent, a Bill was introduced into this House —called by the opponents of it, the Irish Coercion Bill, and by those who supported it the Protection of Life (Ireland) Bill—and no doubt it had been supported by many of his Noble Friends who had had a long experience of Ireland. He would not have deemed it necessary to have alluded to this measure now, but a circumstance which had since oc.. eurred compelled him to do so. No man could more deeply deplore than he did the increase of crimes of this description, or that Ireland should be made the subject of such a measure as this, and at a time too when of all others the country most needed the united sympathies of both Houses of Parliament. Now he should say that no informa tion that had reached him as to the state of Ireland was such as in his opinion to call for this measure, and he was far from thinking that it was one which would reach the evil complained of. He did think it rather extraordinary that her Majesty's Ministers should have been of opinion at the commencement of the cession that this measure was necessary, and that they had since had reason to change that opinion, although some such measure had been alluded to in the speech which her Majesty's Ministers had advised her to deliver from the throne at the opening of the present session. He considered that a timely display of vigour was the most efficacious check upon crimes of this nature. He was still of opinion that a system atic, steady perseverence in the administration of the law would have been amply sufficient to check these crimes. Of this he was sure, that of all the courses which could have been taken, and one which seemed to unite all the evils which could possibly be combined in a measure, was the course which had been taken by the Go vernment on this occasion—an occasion when they adopted a system of tardy, meddling coercion, conceding, with feeble hesitation, their approbation of extraordinary powers, while, at the same time, an efficient administration of the law of the Constitution would have been quite sufficient for all purposes. There really seemed to him something of this carelessness at the time when the Bill was first introduced to their Lordships. He believed that five weeks had elapsed from the period of her Majesty's speech till the measure was introduced. Even then it came in with all the-humbling defzets in its construc tion which have marked the practice of the law department of the Irish Government. At last the Bill was sent down to the other House. He could not then dwell on the tedious nature of its passage through that House. He knew the difficulties in which the Government were placed there. He thought the ignorant might imagine that the delay which took nThegplacehtßai Bill lnaol all. .t t h h that House Government aHotvoweurons would de ab.rteo wouldt s h e e fr demo impression en into 00f indifferenceotpheeral Irish ii. t os o hn j c pu r e i so m tpa e l et . t tswiL h iu,hi e ernfeeypn t a i ht m niatodhd e ne ypb w ?er h oes e anyi n we. the al mana ck s told them that there was no hrnteeyt neglected. (Ireland) :r e eled: B :3 Bill bearing l b io eef Billa believedtr w n e g alsr t pi : oh e s ttpthpi people o l tn e pe o del fl parties au r o l Bd te ibl c l eti whi n ch thatircetho. rt w thei a oten s uer ; los t inn e m. nded to regulate the price of certain articles of con land were against the passing of the Bill. He had moved for h e G i i i se ti ns o pt n lee e ern d eha i n, n i tai, h t ai m :p o oh t ,e i i o an n dg , otlfihetechaeu Bill,s e Government a h ll ad th o e cceruirmrheeadsdimen tioned et which hn; day time D ur i ng the time that he held office in Ireland under the Ad m i nistrat i on, the circumstances o f the country were more fa voura bl e t h an they were un d er the Administra tion of his t wo predecessors, as t h e y had difficulties to contend with, arising out of the Catholic ques tion, whicl he had no t. He must inform their Lordshi p s, in answer t o w h at had been sa id, i n re ferenCe to himself by a Noble Lord, th at he never too k all the credit of the state of things during which dischargedcouldfrom thcelamimoda wasin his administration,is du ties. as Allarisihneg zealously endeavouring to avail himself of the favourable cir cumstances which his predecessors had not. In 1835 the great point he had to consider was, whether he should carry into effect the provisions and powers of the measure under which his two predecessors had acted, and he considered the course he had taken on that occasion was the correct one. He, therefore, would say that the discovery on the part of the Right Hon. Gentleman was of a very strange description, if he had lately discovered that the line of conduct he had pursued for twenty years was not only inexpedient but unjust. The Right Hon. Gentleman had availed himself of the Easter recess to make that discovery, and he (the Marquis of Normanby) under stood that this measure was to be postponed till after the Whitsuntide recess, and he hoped that he would have also availed himself of that recess, and speedily come to the conclusion that the measure ought not to be pro ceeded with—that he might, in fact, come to the conviction that unnecessary coercion was net the way to inspire confidence ; that it was not at the time to which he alluded, that it never had been, and that it never would be, as long as human na tare was what it always had been. But to what would the argument of the Right Hon. Gentleman, that unnecessary coercion was beneficial merely on account of the fear which it was calculated to inspire —to what conclusion, he would ask, would that lead ? He would say, that there was no despo tism—no autocracy provided ;it was only administered in a particular manner, which might not be justified upon 'those grounds which the Right Hon. Gentleman had made use of on the occasion alluded to. He (the Marquis of Normanby) would therefore say, that this inference was not justified in point of fact, and that it was dangerous in its general applica tion. And if that was really the sentiment of the Right Hon. Baronet, they could only rejoice that it was not the sentiment of a strong Minister, backed by the majority of nearly a hun dred. He (the Marqeis of Normanby) felt it necessary to bring this subject before their Lordships in justification of the conduct of himself and his party; and he felt it necessary, before he sat down, to ask the Noble Earl opposite whether it was the intention of the Government to proceed with this measure.—( Hear, hear.) He felt certain that it was neither the desire of their Lordships nor the country, that the Bill should be held up in its present state of suspoolled animation. If it was the intention of the Government to proceed with the measure, let them at once meet that opposition which was awaiting it elsewhere. He contended that it was trifling with the country, if they did not at once proceed with or withdraw this measure; but he believed it was not the intention of the Government to proceed with it this session. He ought to apo logise to their Lordships for having thus occupied their time in teference to a Bill which ha'dpassed their Lordship? House, but he was anxious to make the statements which he had made, in justification of his condUct with reference to Ireland. He hoped, in conclusion, that the Noble Earl opposite would in form their Lordships what was the intention of her Majesty's Ministers with respect to this measure.—( Hear, hear.) Earl ST. GERMANS said it was quite unnecessary for the Noble Marquis to have stated that he was absent from the House upon the occasion he had alluded to ; for inde pendent of the regret which they all felt that the Noble Marquis should have been absent, he thought that the Noble Marquis's absence sufficiently accounted for his not being acquainted with the causes in which this Bill had originated. In the autumn of last year the crime of murder, and attempts at murder, had become so lamentably frequent, that it became absolutely necessary to grant ad. ditional powers to Government to repress it; and those powers were not asked for until all the powers then at the disposal of Government had been employed to meet the evil without suc cess. It was with that conviction upon the minds of her Ma jesty's Ministers that they had deemed it their duty to advise her Majesty to call the attention of both Houses c f Parliament to the state of Ireland, and to adopt some measure whereby to remedy the evil; and both Houses of the Legislature responded to that recommendation. But the Noble Marquis had made it a cause of complaint against her Majesty's Ministers, that they had not peremptorily called for this measure. Now, he (Earl St. Germans) would say, that he did not blush at her Ma jesty's Ministers having delayed to ask for such a measure, for he said it was no light matter to ask for a measure by which to abridge the constitutional right of the subject— and the Government did hope that when her Majesty had ex pressed her abhorrence of such a state of things as then ex isted in Ireland, and that the Government were prepared to adopt such a measure as this, it would have had a good effect in the disturbed districts ; but he regretted to say it had not had that effect. He should also say that the Government did deserve credit for the manner in which they had brought this Bill forward ; and nothing also could be more creditable than the conduct of Noble Lords opposite, who evinced no party feeling whatever during the discussion ; and when a division did take place (the only one which did occur) not a single Peer connected with Ireland was to be found in the minority upon the division. The Bill was sent down to the House of Commons on the 13th of March, and it was not read a first time till the lit of May. For this delay the Government were not responsible. The minority of both Houses pos sessed :considerable power—( Hear, hear)—he thought that it was a power which should be exercised with great discretion The minority of the House of Commons had thought it right to obstruct the progress of this Bill not only in that stage, but they also announced that they would oppose it in all its future stages. He believed it was the imperative duty of the Govern ment to proceed with the Bill in the manner they did. It was in order to same time, and lass the Bill as soon as possible, that it was introduced to their Lordships' House first, and sent down afterwards to the House of Commons. They hoped to be able, when the public business was less pressing than at present, to bring the Bill again under the notice of the House. The Noble Marquis had attempted to turn into derision a pro vision in the Bill, urging the inhabitants of disturbed districts to keep within their houses at particular hours, but the Noble Marquis, while he was making that attempt, must have forgotten that a similar provision was introduced and passed in a Bill which received the legislative sanction during his own administration.—( Hear, hear.) In conclusion, he had only to tell the Noble Marquis that the opinions of her Majesty's Government, upon the subject of this Bill, remained still un shaken, and it was therefore their intention to persevere in the measure. —(Hear, hear.) The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thought the Noble Earl had given a very extraordinary reason why the introduction of the Bill was postponed. The Noble Earl had said that Go vernment was in hopes the declaration in the speech from the throne upon the subject of crime in Ireland would have had the effect of suppressing those outrages, which had been of so fre quent occurrence in the sister country. and which were so much deplored on all hands ; but in his (the Marquis of Clanri carde's) opinion, the Government bad shown a want of deci sion, or want of judgment, in delaying the introduction of this Bill, after they had received an intimation from Ireland that such a measure was necessary for the protection of life and pro perty in that country.—( Hear, hear.) He had only to repeat, that he thought it was still the duty of Parliament to use every consitutional means in their power to suppress outrage and maintain the liberty of the subject in Ireland.—(Hear. ) After a few words in explanation from the Earl of ST. GERMANS, which did not reach the gallery, The Duke of WELLINGTON said the Bill was in prepara tion before the session commenced, and Ministers were at the same time in communication with the Irish Government upon it. The law officers of the Crown, however, had to settfe the Bill before it could be introduced into Parliament, and of course this occupied a good deal of the time after the commencement of the session.—( Hear.) It was that which prevented the Bill being introduced earlier than it was. The LORD CHANCELLOR spoke a few words in confir mation of what had fallen from the Noble Duke. The Earl of WICKLOW said, in his opinion, so unconsti tutional a measure as a Coercion Bill ought never to have been introduced, unless there was an absolute necessity for it, and certainly not if Government did not intend to press it through Parliament. The measure, it was said, was brought forward for the protection of life and property in Ireland, and it was upon that ground that their Lordships passed it, but the manner in which it was treated - by Government in the other House was perfectly disgraceful. They allowed measures of a financial character to have precedence of it, and from what he could learn from the public prints of what passed in the other House, actually agreed that it should not be brought forward for the second reading until the House allowed corn, and other financial measures before the House, to be disposed of.—(Hear, hear.) In his opinion, this was most disgraceful, for delay would only render the Bill inoperative. Besides, if this pro• tection for life and property was required by the people of Ire land, the Bill ought to be pushed forward at once, and passed without a moment's delay.—( Hear, hear.) The Marquis of NORNIANBY said, from the language of the Queen's speech, it would naturally have been inferred that there was an absolute necessity for such a Bill, and that it was the intention of Government to bring it in and press it for ward without any delay.—(Hear, hear.) There appeared however, and in fact there was, a contradiction between such language and the present course of the Government ; indeed there was an actual contradiction between this language and what had fallen from the Noble Earl opposite. The Noble Earl did not say that the Bill would he proceeded with at once, but only whenever the state of public business admitted of i's being proposed to the House of Commons to read the Bill a second time.—( Hear, hear. ) The Earl of HAD DINGTON said it was quite impossible that Government could press the measure forward faster than they had done, for their Lordships would remember that Par liament had been placed in such a position with regard to the Corn Bill, that Government could not, consistently with their duty to the country, have interposed any measure which should have the effect of delaying its progress:—( Hear.) The Duke of RICHMOND did not think with the Noble Lord that the Government would have aeted improperly if they had not delayed proceeding with the Bill in consequence of the threats of a minority of the House. The Government gave way to threats too much. The Corn Bill was brought forward in consequence of threats held out to them. The real reason why the Government did not proceed with the BM was, be cause they themselves were in a minority, and could not keep a House. The Government had but 112 supporters, whereas the Irish minority spoken of had been 125. The Earl of HADDINGTON stated that he did not refer to the numbers who voted for the Bill, he only referred to the small minority who opposed the Bill. The Marquis of NORNIANBY would put an end to the discussion by moving for the returns he had alluded to. At the same time, it was his opinion that the Bill would not pass into law. The motion was then agreed to. CORN-LAWS. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a number of peti tions, from Cornwall and other places, against the repeal of the corn-laws. FATTENING CATTLE. Lord BEAUAIONT presented a petition from a gentleman who had made a number -of experiments with malt for the purpose of fattening cattle, praying their Lordships to take the excise duty off that article. The petition?r stated that malt was much better for the purpose than barley. The LORD CHANCELLOR thought the result of his experiments were contrary to the opinion given before the Committee. The Duke of RICHMOND could bring forward a thousand farmers, whose experience was of more weight than all the theories of scientific men. After a short discussion upon the comparative merits of bar ley and malt, The Duke of RICHMOND stated that he knew a farmer, residing close by the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, who was himself a great farmer, who considered that malt was prefer able to barley. The LORD CHANCELLOR thought that perhaps the individual referred to by the Noble Duke argued only by analogy, he judged perhaps from the effects of malt on his own person. Several other petitions were then presented, and their Lord ships adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 22. The SPEAKER took the chair at Four o'clock. REPORTS. The following reports were brought up and agreed to, and the Bills ordered to be engrossed, viz.:—Hamilton New Gas, Aston Rates, Gallon Inclosure, A►rdrie Police, Caledonian In surance Company, Aylesbury and Thames Junction Railway, Midland, Barnsley, Sheffield, Dewsbury, and Bradford Rail way, York Improvement, Harrogate Waterworks, London and South-Western Railway (Farnham and Alton branch), R ea d_ ing, Guildford, and Reigate Railway. MARQUIS OF DONEGAL'S ESTATE BILL. This Bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed. THIRD READINGS. The following Bills were read a third time, and passed : Buckinghamshire Railway (Oxford and Bletchley Junction), Rye and Derwent Drainage, Westruther Road, Greenlaw Roads, Port Ellen Harbour, Carshalton Rates, Gravesend and Milton Waterworks. CALEDONIAN (DUNDYVAN BRANCH). Smith, of Deanston, land surveyor and valuator, was then called by Mr. Forsyth, and examined as to the accuracy of the esti mates for the purchase of the land to be required by this company. In cross-examination by Mr. AN DREWS the witness adhered to his opinion that his valuation was adequate, " especially as he had no university to value."—(A laugh.) Other evidence in favour of this competing line was adduced, and the Committee adjourned at four o'clock to Monday—the decision as to the preamble of the previous Bill being postponed until after the evidence on the competing lines ; and the statement of the counsel for this Bill being also deferred until after the evidence in its support. GROUP XIII, NORTH BRITISH (CARLISLE EXTENSION). (Continued from our Afternoon f.diti`n of yesterday.) Mr. Robert Cowen re-examined—The 20,000 tons of Canobie coal he meant was the quantity that would be consumed in Carlisle and south ofit. To the CHAIRMAN—The length of the canal was 1114 miles. The present rates down the canal was ts. a ton, and 3d. a ton for tack ing, being Is. 3d. each ton. • He had learned that there was an in tention to reduce it to 6d. The present price of coals in Carlisle was for the best Is. 2d. ; second, 3s. Bd. ; and third quality for steam purposes, 4s. Mr. Marshall, traffic-taker, examined—He had had considerable experience in taking traffic. He took the traffic for the North Bri tish line. The observations on the present line were taken by men placed at various points along the route in the months of January and August. He took the passengers from the way-bills. The traffic of this route had much decreased of late, on account of the greater facilities afforded by the Newcastle route from the opening of the railways south. In making his estimate of passengers, he had added 150 per cent. for increase, which he considered a moderate cal culation. In addition to the passengers through Hawick, he had taken 1,500 passengers, who went yearly by the Newcastle route for the south that would go by the present line, if it was opened. The whole number of passengers that went that way was 10,030, and of that amount he thought 1,500 a moderate number that would go this way if they had railway accommodation. The parties by gigs and private vehicles were taken by observation, and to that also he had added 130 per cent. The same principle of voting traffic was observed in estimating goods. He had taken credit in the tables for a large amount of fish that would pass along this line from Dunbar to Liverpool and Manchester. He had calculated 1,500 tons of fresh meat that would go by this railway. His coal esti mate he made out from the estimate of the witnesses examined yes terday. The cattle - nd sheep traffic was made from the information of Mr. Nelson and Mr. Maxwell. The total income was sat down at 60,5661. Cross-examined —He took January and August for the passenger traffic, August was not a fair month, but it was compensated by January. The traffic in August was taken about the middle of the month. His information of the passengers that went by Newcastle he got from guards and coachmen and inquiries made at Edinburgh. Of all the passengers that went by the Edinburgh and Newcastle coaches he took 1,500 that would go by this line; as he learned that a great proportion of those also went south of Newcastle, went to the midland counties of England. Hs had but estimited 100 per cent. of increase on the Hawick line last year, hut he had seen reason this year to consider 150 a fair calculation. The men who were placed io make the observations were instructed to put clown every person on horseback and every vehicle that was travelling more than three miles; and out of this information he made his tables, striking off from the data furnished a proportion, so that the table furnished would Include only those that were travelling six miles and upwards. He considered that 9,1371. would be raised this way. Pie did not consider that an over-estimate. He had never heard of parties being purposely sent by companies along the roads in gigs, in order that they might be included in the traffic calculations.—(Laughter.) If the route from Dunbar, through the North British to Newcastle, and from thence in a direct manner to Manchester, was shorter, then the 4,000 tons of fish he had estimated to be carried by this line was erroneous, as a great portion of it would go by the east line. The fish that would go to Liverpool and Manchester, would in all proba bility, take that route. With respect to the coal traffic, he had taken the present consumption at Hawick, and trebled it, making 24,000 tons In all. He had estimated a ton and a half to each person. When he spoke of Hawlck in this estimate, he meant the town and parish of Hawick and the district surrounding it. The population of the town and parish of Hawick in 1841, was 6,573. Mr. RICKARDS asked how he could make up the balance of 16,000 of a population which was implied in the supposition of a ton and half being consumed by each person in the Hawick district ? Witness then went through a series of parishes in and beyond the neighbourhood of Hawick which when cast up made a population of 13,419. He admitted, therefore, that 24,000 tons showed an over estimate of 4,000. This was at the same time on the supposition that the coal delivered at the Hawick station would go as far north as Jedbnrgh and St. Boswell's, and that the Dalkeith coal would be shut out of this district, also that the Canobie coal would retain its present price. His calculation given last year of coal and lime being brought out of the Lothians must now be struck out as far as these tables were concerned, as they were calculated to be supplied from Canobie and Langholm. Mr. Patrick Maxwell, of Canobie, was briefly examined in corro boration of the evidence of the previous witness. Mr. Blythe, civil engineer, examined by Mr. Sergeant RELLASIS— He laid down the line under the direction of Mr. Miller. The line joined with the Edinburgh Railway at Hawick, and passed by Moss Paul, Langholm, and the east side of Langton, on to Carlisle. The last mile of this line was nearly identical with the deviation line of the Caledonian Company now before Parliament, for entering into a central station to be constructed in Carlisle. There would be no diffi culty in both companies using the same line here with a double set of rails. The steepest gradient on the line was 1 in 75, between Netherby and Langton. The length was 2 1 4 miles. The smallest radius on the main line was three furlongs. There was a tunnel of 300 yards in length, near to Moss Paul. The ascending gradient from Hawick to Moss Paul was one in 100, and the descending one towards Carlisle, one in 90. There were four short viaducts, 850 yards in length altogether. The main line was 42% miles in length, and there were two short branches of 1% miles each. This would form the shortest route from Hawick to London and Lancashire, connecting the lines at pre sent authorised to be made. From Hayrick by Carlisle the distance to London would be 343 miles; and by Kelso and Berwick, 407 miles. The whole distance from Edinburgh by Hawick to Carlisle was 96 miles, by the Caledonian about 100 miles. His whole esti mate of the line, including land, was 660,0001. The working expenses were estimated at 37 per cent. Cross-ermined by Mr. Hepx—He thought the present line would be worked in connexion with the Edinburgh and Hawick line. Last year his estimate was 40 per cent. for working expenses. He had not calculated the distance front Hawick to London on the supposi tion of the London and York being granted. If that were made then the distance by Berwick and that line world be 375 miles, and if the Direct Northern passed, nine miles shorter. They proposed to run into the station of the Lancaster and ;Carlisle Company at Car lisle,. to which the l a tt er ob j ected. This line crossed several ~„ ughfares. It crossed Crown-street on a level. Borough street was proposed to be lowered three feet, and to be crossed by an arch of twelve feet. There were several crossings on the level. They might have had a gradient of one in a 100 at Netherby had they chosen to expend money for it. Witness bad had a scheme t ec Graham o bi ted to h. It would have had better ° pass along the other b an k o f t h e Esk, but Sir J. Present line. A. deviation had gradients than the made to meet the obj ec ti ons of the Duke of Ruceleueh. Thn'e been voit was crossed 13 times. Mr. Horn here submitted a i paper, with a serie s o f quest i ons on { the estimates of works , rw. Hope's) h u ic o h, the witness would return written , much shortened. answers to them, e mus - examination would be very Mr. Sergeant BELLASIS objected to this course as unusual, and thought it would interfere much more with the time of the Com mittee th a n if the questions were now put to the witness in regular order. After some conversation on the point, it was arranged that Mr. estions then seriatim to the witniss. Ho p e should put his a "u Mr. Blythe was then q u estion ed a t length on the amount of exca vation, the nature of the strata, the embankments, bridges, mason work, permanent way, &c., going in detail over the whole works along the line. The cross-examination was proceeding, when The CHAIRMAN said, as it was e Terence to the case of the Caledonianvidenthatt that the ttahefoqllUoesw,tiohnse though; it it would be as well that a written abstract was drawn up and put in by the witness. This was assented to and the cross-examination was dropped. CALEDONIAN EXTENSIOI 7 . Mr. COCKBURN, in reference to an observation that dropped from the Chairman at the close of yesterday's sitting, as to whether the promoters intended to proceed with the Cale donian Extension, said it was evident that the obserratiOn of the Chairman proceeded, no doubt, from the supposition that the main claim of that line was negatived by the decision in favour of the Dumfries scheme. Now he wished to call the attention of the Committee to the fact that the southern connexion with Ayr shire was really subordinate to the real claims which the Caledonian Extension preferred for the favourable consideration of the Commit tee. The main feature in the case was the formation of a connexion between Edinburgh and Ayrshire. Besides, it would have the effect of opening up to Glasgow the richest coal and mineral district in Scotland, that of Lesmahagow. It was, therefore, their intention to proceed with the Bill, which he begged to observe wits independent of the Caledonian Company. The CHAIRMAN said the Learned Gentleman was correct as to the impression of his meaning. He certainly thought the question of southern connexion was in a great measure settled by the decision in favour of the Dumfries line. Still, as the case was such as the Learned Gentleman represented, the C omm i ttee would c h eer f u lly go the whole case for the Caledonian Extension, and he begged of the promoters to dismiss from their minds all supposition of the Committee being In the least degree prejudiced against the scheme. The Committee then adjourned till Mo , day at twelve o'clock. GROUP XIV. The Select Committee appointed to consider the merits of the Bills comprised i n this group re -assembled at the usual hour this morning, Mr. Protheroe in the chair. TEE MID ZENT 41.712%COSPREEXC., The case for the promoters of the atr WEXFORD, CARLOW, _ AND DUBLIN JUNCTION RAILWAY. Mr. GROGAN moved—" That it be an instruction to the Committee of Selection to refer the Wexford, Carlow, and Dublin Junction Railway Bill, being unopposed, to Mr. Greene, and the Members in charge thereof."—The motion was withdrawn. The HoN. GENTLEMAN also moved—" That it be an in struction to the Committee of Selection to refer the Dublin Wide Streets Bill and the Dublin Cemeteries Bill to the same Committee."—The motion was agreed to. GENERAL TERMINUS AND GLASGOW HAR BOUR BILL. Mr. DENNISTOUN movid—" That in the case of the General Terminus and Glasgow Harbour Railway Bill, Stand ing Order N 0.121 be suspended, and the proposed amendments, being merely verbal, be made on the third reading."—The motion was agreed to. YORK IMPROVEMENT BILL. Mr. GREENE, on the bringing up of the report from the Committee on the York Improvement Bill, moved that the Bill be re-committed to the former Committee. That the Com mittee have leave to sit and report on Monday neat.— Agreed to. GLASGOW MUNICIPAL POLICE BILL. • Mr. M'KENZIE presented a petition from some of the in habitants of Glasgow against the introduction of certain clauses into this Bill, which would be the means of materially affecting their interests. The petition was ordered to be laid on the table. LEEDS, WAKEFIELD, AND MIDLAND JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL. Mr. P. BENNETT presented several petitions against this Bill. CORNWALL RAILWAY. Sir CHARLES LEMON presented 156 numerously signed petitions in favour of this Bill. BASINGSTOKE AND SALISBURY RAILWAY. The same HoN. MEMBER also presented two petitions in favour of this Bill. Mr. BARNARD presented a petition in favour of Art Union Societies. Mr. HAWES presented a petition against the Highways Bill. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL presented a petition from tenants under Trinity College, and others interested in land in the barony of Irraghticonnor, in the county of Kerry, praying the House forthwith to carry into effect the recommendations of Lord Devon's Commission, so far as regards the conversion of College tenures into perpetuities ; and to move that the peti tion be printed with the votes. FREE CHURCH OF SCOTLAND. Mr. BAILEY presented a petition from Strathaven, in favour of the Bill of the Hon. Member for Montrose for enabling parties to obtain sites for building churches. MR. W. S. 0. BRIEN. _ _ Mr. D. O'COTIVELI. presented seventy petitions from various parts of Ireland, signeWuwards of 60,000 persons, praying the House to discharg B. O'Brien from eustody. TEN HO BILL. Mr. HUME presented a petition against the proposed Fac tories Regulation Bill. Sir CHARLES NAPIER gave notice that he would, on Monday next, move for a return of the number of steam frigates built for the service of the Royal Navy. Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD gave notice that he would, on Monday next, put a question to one of her Majesty's Ministers for the purpose of learning whether it was the inten tion of Government to bring in a Bill founded on the report of the Land Commission of Ireland. RELIEF OF THE POOR (SCOTLAND.) Mr. BOUVERIE wished to ask the Lord Advocate of Scot land whether a printed paper, entitled " Application for Relief," has been printed and circulated in Scotland, with the know ledge and sanction of the Board of Supervision of the poor ; if so, whether it has been with the sanction of the Lord Advocate or Secretary of State for the Home Department ; and, if it has been with their knowledge and sanction, whether the appli cants for relief are required to answer the queries contained in that form of application before their claim to relief is consi dered, or that claim allowed. There were twenty-three queries in that paper to read over which would occupy the House too long. Now according to the law of Scotland every destitute person was entitled torelief, and he wasgiven to under stand that unless all these queries were filled up the application for relief would be refused. What he wanted to know, therefore, was, whether the circulation of that paper was sanctioned by the Board of Supervision, and if so, whether re lief was refused unless those queries were answered. The LORD ADVOCATE said, that with regard to the first part of the question, he had to state, that the paper en titled, " Application for relief," had been printed and circulated with the knowledge and sanction of the Board He understood that the queries had been printed at the desire of some persons as a form of queries to be put to parties apply ing for relief. By the statute persons applying for relief were bound to answer such questions in order that the dis pensers of it might be enabled to judge of the nature of their claim ; but the parties so applying were entitled to relief in the mean time ; he did not, however, be lieve that any one had been refused relief, because they were un able, or refused to reply to the questions. But if any one did refuse, he might, by applying to the local judge, obtain instant relief, that officer being empowered to grant it. The queries were absolutely necessary, in order that the different parishes might not be imposed upon. The dropped orders of yesterday were then read. BRIDPORT ELECTION. Mr. CHRISTIE postponed his motion on this subject until Thursday next. __ RAILWAY' COMPANIES' BILL. Sir GEORGE CLERK expressed his intention of pro ceeding with this Bill after the other orders of the day had been disposed of. AIR. SMITH O'BRIEN. On the order of the day for the consideration of Mr. Smith O'Brien's letter to the Speaker being read, Mr. O'CONNELL moved that the minutes connected with the committal of that gntleman be read. The minutes having been read, Mr. O'CONNELL said that it was his intention to state the facts of the case as they really occurred, and to move a resolu tion that the order of the 27th April should be discharged, it being illegal in the first place, and obtained by gross mis representation to the !House. Of course he did not impute to the Honourable Gentleman any wilful misrepresentation, of which he believed him to be perfectly incapable. But he had, in his opinion, grossly misinformed the House, which would never have made the order except upon his state ment. The gentleman represented himself to be the chairman of the Committee of Selection, the existence of which he begged leave to deny. However, he called himself the chair man of it, and stated the substance of a correspondence which took place between themselves and the Honour able Member for Limerick, and upon that statement he ob tained the order which he now moved should be discharged. Now if he was able to show that it was obtained on statements founded on error, he considered he had a fair claim upon the House to accede to his motion. He denied the existence of the Committee of Selection. He granted that the materials for such Committee existed, but that the Committee itself existed he wholly denied. And now he would direct the attention of the House very shortly to another part of the subject, which, in his judgment, was one of the utmost importance, and which, on consideration of the matter, ought to be first attended to. They would find that by the first standing order of the House a Committee of 42 Members was appointed, and by the second standing order these were allowed to be divided into sub- Committees,each Com mittee appointing its own chairman, and the next order decided a Committee should be appointed every session, and that such Committee should be a Select Committee of Standing Orders. It was enacted, and to this he begged to:call the particular at tention of the House, that that Committee should be appointed at the commencement of every session, and that it should con sist of the chairman of the standing orders, and the chairman of Sub-Committees, three of whom was to form a quorum, and that that Committee should be denominated the Committee of Selection. If that Committee had been formed at the com mencement of the session he would give up the question, but he asserted that no such Committee had been appointed - that no question of its appointment was brought before the douse ; in short a total vacancy existed as to the formation of a Select Committee. This brought the matter within a very narrow compass, and the letter which had been received from the Chief Clerk showed clearly that such a Committee had not been formed at the commencement of this Session. He had taken the trouble to search the votes on the journals of the House, and he could find none such. But it had been suggested to him that as the materials of the Select Committee were in existence, it might be supposed to be fully constituted, 'and that, therefore, its re-appointment on every succeeding session was unnecessary. He utterly denied that because it would deprive every Member of the House of a right to which he was entitled. The House, it was well known, did not appoint the Chairmen of the Committees, they were elected by the Committees themselves. He fuund in the Journals of the House, of the 28th of February, 1845, that the order of the House had been moved, relative to the appointment of the Committee of Selection ; and that such an appointment was accordingly made for a similar order in the session of 1846. He found that none such existed. No opportunity had been afforded to the Hon. Member for complying with the orders of the House. He then had to consider the right of the Committee of Selection to enforce his opinions. This was precisely the principle upon which Mr. Smith O'Brien had acted, and when the Committee of Selection, he believed, had acted beyond their powers, he refused to acknowledge their authority, and he believed that it was quite in accordance with the rules of this House, Mr. Smith O'Brien had accordingly refused to take any notice of the application of the Committee of Selection. The ques tion then arose, whether the authority of the Committee of Selection was to be attended to in preference to the rules of the House of Commons. According to the rules as he under stood them, there was an express direction that this Committee should act in accordance with the rules of the House. He should therefore move, that as the Committee of Selection had not, on examination, been instituted in accordance with the rules of the House, that the order of the 27th of April should be discharged ; and, secondly, that Mr. Smith O'Brien should be remitted from custody. If he succeeded in the first of these motions, the second would follow:as a matter of course, and Mr. S. O'Brien would be discharged from custody. If he did not succeed in the first, he would have a right to take the sense of the House, and he should therefore, on that point, move for the discharge of Mr. Smith O'Brien. Mr. ESTCOURT said, he had little or no answer to make to the motion of the Hon. Member. Acccording to the rules of the House there had been two Committees established, which involved the whole of the question. He need not tell the House what had been the course the Hon. Member (Mr. Smith O'Brien) had thought proper to pursue. But this much he might remind them of, that these several Committees had been appointed for carrying on the business of the country, and that the y had been constituted with as much view to the convenience of Members as po, sible. One of these Committees consisted of 48 Mem' oers, and was termed the Committee of Selection. Another Com mittee was appointed for the purpose of carrying OU. the orders of the House; it consisted of seven Members, and was called the Standing Orders Committee. It was in contravention of the rules of this Committee that the Hon. Member for Lime rick had committed this default. That Committee was called the Committee of Selection. It was to that Committee that the Hon. Gentlemen took exception. He stated as the grounds of that exception, that unless that Committee w ap pointed in every session , it could not discha rge the dutiesas a s i g ned to it by the House. It was on th at point that hewass- at issue with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman Estcourt) conceived that the st an di ng orders ofthe.Hollusee(wleirre the laws which regulated the Proceedings of the House of Com mons. It was well known to the House, and, in fact, by others, that the standing orders of the House were not an an nual piece of legislation, but were laws whi c h wou l d continue in force to gov ern th e House of Commons until altered or re pealed. The Committee of Selection had been established for several years—it was seven years, he thought, s i nce t h ey were constituted, und er the auspices of the amse. Now, h e con tended th a t w h en the Stailding Orders' Committee, or the Committee of Selection had been' consttiuted, that those Com mittees were appointed and established by theexpress rules of the H ouse , and they must continue untilaltered or dissolved. lie was borne out in this, because it was no unfrequent proceeding of the House to appoint Com mittees for various purposes each session, -whose labours were .confined to that particular session of Parliament, unless they became sessional orders by direction of the House. The dis . tinction between Committees so appointed . for a particular purpose in one session of Parliament, and sessional orders, which continued from session to session, until altered or re pealed by the House, was, in his opinion, perfectly evident. With regard to Committees on Private Bills, did th ?AIL Member for Derby come to the House to move for the ap pointment of a Committee on a petition on a Frivate Bill ? The Hon. Member did not submit a motion to the House. He did not gtvp notice that on a given day he should move for the appointment of a Committee on a petition on a Private Bill. He came to the House and directed that the standinf order shall be read, then nominated the Committee, and thaa nomination was entered on the journals. The samat st.iag curred with regard to himself when the standing order wee ;4 be appointed. He did not come to the House and give notice of a motion, that the Committee on a standing order should be appointed, but he came to the House and required that stand ing orders 3 or 4 should be read, and when they were read, he, nominated the Members to cons ti tu t e th e S tan di ng O r d e rs' Committee. With regard to the Committee of Selection, he was aware that at the beginning of last session there was an entry on the Journals that the Committee of Selection was ap pointed, or was to be appointed, but he considered that that entry was not regular; and en consulting the highest authority he could consult on the subject this sessions, his apprehension was confirmed by those authorities, viz.—that it was not ne cessary to enter the appointment of these Committees, if they were appointed according to the proper construction ° the standing orde rs . H e conten d e d t h at t h e nominat i on of these Committees ought to be found in the journals of the House. All Committees were appointed by the standing orders, and nothing more was necessary than to call out and nominate the Member, and then turn to standing order 4, and the entry made there. The appointment of the Com mittee was by the standing orders, but the nomination of the Member was not by the House. At the same time that the Committee was appointed, the Members were nominated, gene rally being the chairman of the standing orders, and the chair' men of the Committees and Sub-Committees on petitions on Private Bills, and of wh om th ree s h ould b e a quorum. He considered that the appointment of the Committee was good. With regard to their being no entry of the appointment of such Committee, it was wholly unnecessary that there should be such an entry upon the journals of the House, the Committee being constituted in accordance with the standing orders. It did not appear to him that the Hon. Gen leman had rested his objection on any other ground than informality, and he trusted he had shown that the appointment was sufficient, and thas there had been no deficiency whatever in the forms which had been followed. He did not think that any grounds what ever,,,r had been shown for the inte r f erence o f t h e H ous e. He trusted, therefore, the House would see that the construction be put upon the case was the correct one, and he hoped that it would not take the view of the Hon. Member (Mr. O'Connell) but would support the Committee of Selection. Mr. WARBURTON thought the question should be con sidered totally irrespective of the case of Mr. Smith O'Brien. The question for them to consider simply was whether the Committee of Selection was appointed or not. If the construc tion of the Hon, Member for Oxford be the true one, the language would not have been " that a Committee be ap pointed at the commencement of every session ;" the lan guage would rather have been, " That the chairman of the Select Committee on standing orders, and the chairmen of the Sub-Committees on petitions for private Bills be a Com mittee for such and such purposes." That clearly would have been the language of the standing order, had it been the in tention of the House that the sessional order should be con tinued in the sense taken of it by the Hon. Member for Ox ford. But who had appointed this Committee? It was quite clear that some one must have appointed it. The Committee could not appoint itself. The Speaker, he believed, had not appointed it, and again he must ask who had appointed the Committee ? He thought it better that they should confess at once that there had been some negligence shown some where or other, or that some misinterpretation of the words of the standing order had taken place, and, therefore, the sooner: they returned to the reading of the Act, the sooner would they do justice to the Hon. Member, and to that House itself. Sir GEORGE GREY said that, in his opinion, the words of the statute were to be interpretated in precisely a similar way with the wordi ng o f ot h er pr i vate Bi lls, and the H ouse had sanctioned by many p rece d ents t hi s v i ew o f t h e cas e. H e found, in reference to the nomination of Committees on pr ivate Bills, that the standing order No. 1 should be moved at the commencement of every session. He found that that order was that the Committee should consist of 42 Members, five to be a quorum in opposed cases, and three a quorum in cases not op posed. But the H ouse did not i n every case require t h a t this order should be substantiated by a motion. He found indeed that with the exception of 1845, the year adverted to by the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork, it had never been deemed necessary to adopt this course. The Hon. Member had re fused to comply with the call made by the House ; he was therefore guilty of contempt, and he had been accordingly com mitted.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. STURT said, there was no doubt that some difficulty arose from the method in which the standing order was framed; but at the same time, looking at the words, and also at wha t had been the practice of the House. He did not think they could have any difficulty at arriving at a decision. A il the Committees of the House had been appointed by the same order, which only required that a Committee should be an" pointed at the commencement of the session ; and it could not be done otherwise, for the Speaker could not, consistently with his duty, have put a question to the House which would have negatived its own authority, which, he contended, would be the case if, having ordered the appointment of a Committee 11 a sessional order, they put it in the power of the Member to make lightjof that appointment. It stated that these Committees should be appointed at the commencement of each session , and the order recommends that these selections should be re ported to the House. He could not speak of the perfect accu racy of the phraseology employed, but such as it was the, were bound to act upon it. The words made use of were-- " shall be appointed;;" an d h e was no t o f o pinion that the terms of a standing order were to 1 1, construed with the strictness of a ph ra se of an Act 0 Parliament, or of a bill of indictment, but still in taking these words in their common sen se of co ns t r u c ti o n, it was impossib le for the Standing Orders' Committe e t o ac t otherwise than they had done. With such an impression he could not help voting with the Hon. Member for Oxford on this occasion, and giving his decided opposition to the motion. Mr. O'CONNELL thought that the Right Hon. Member . for Devonport had entirely misapprehended the terms of hi s motion. Its object was not that Mr. O'Brien be immediatelY discharged from custody, but that he should be discharged to attend the Committee to which he had been appointed. must say, that he trusted the decision to which the House vise about to come would be more in accordance with comport sense than were the terms of the standing orders on which Mr. O'Brien was committed.—(Laughter.) What might be the meaning of the terms of the standing orders under which Mr. O'Brien was committed he could not pretend to say, but he trusted the House would not become wiseacres to interpret it —(Laughter)---but certainly it would be out of rule to Inter pret it according as the Standing Orders' Committee had male it out. The wording of the standing order, as he would comprehend it, was at variance with cornn°`! sense, • and he thought in violation of all the rules of grammar. He thought then that o n consideratio the House would perceive that it would be impossible to c? n.. fine Mr. Smith O'Brien, when the phraseology of the standing; order was so contradictory in itself, especially when they CO sidered how many persons were interested in the result. this occasion, therefore, h e t rus t e d th a t th e House would 17 upon the question as he vi ewe d it, an d w i t h th a t hope he move that Mr. Smith O'Brien be discharged. Mr. WAKLEY rose, amidst loud cries of " Divide, divideh., He said he hoped that this qu es ti on wou ld no t b e decided out the officers of the Crown stating their opinion of ct. (" Oh ! oh !" and cries of " No, no")—for he was sni7 in consequence of what had transpired before on this subjecol, that if it was not debated and decided o n the rounds of common sense, and on the words of the standi n g or der, ti! „,0 great dissatisfaction would be felt by the country, and 5% greater dissatisfaction by the Members of th a t H ouse on sore future occasion, when they themselves m i g h t b e p l ace d in . similar position to Mr. Smith O'Brien. Now, could anything be plainer than the words of the order ;._« At the commence" ment of every session the Committee shall be a pp o i n ted"! (Several Hon. Members h ere ca ll e d out, "Be appointed"/ —For his Honourable F r i en d th e Member - for Kee: dal, had in his (Mr. Wakley's) opinion, given a coffee' interpretation of the words. The right interpretation of that order was as plain and obvious to his (Mr. Wakley's) apple' hension as anything they could place before him. New, what. had been the practise of th e p rece di ng sess i on ? N o one bad • asked that question. Was,there a precedent for the course they had taken? He put that question to the House, and if there was not he was at a loss to know on what right they had: now a gentleman, one of their Members, in custody ? It was , et ! the very best, a doubtful proceedi ng . But would they interpr et the law in its most stringent sense? Why should they n ot say to this gentleman, " We don't think you have• been very wis e ; and it is not pleasant that our wisdom should be discussed; n o will let you out, and let us shake hands ?"—(Laughter.) did not think that any degree of want of dignity would atta`;„ to such a course ; but, at any rate, it was the honest committed'course' for it was plain and obvious that a mistake had been suger and he thought they ought not to make another person for their own fault. Mr. AGLIONBY said it was not his intention to have the troubled the House with any observations on this subject , , as the Hon. Gentleman had raised a technical objection to order, and insisted that the House had made a mistaken; which opinion he could not coincide, he wished to °cello' t aY attention for but a few moments. He would not give l or e sent to the opinion of the Hon. Geneteman,that the law o of the Crown ought to express their opinio n of the order, rit a. fore the House adopted any steps respecting it ; for, b ol , been a question of mere law, it might have been necessary h'e have received their opinion, but in this case they w ould not considered other than simply Member s o f the House. Ahe __„ orders had been drawn up by the House, and therefore it:vv,a: the House who were only competent to discuss them, and an ought to be appealed to as to their construction, or to alter e n,'„ repeal them, so that the other Members of the HouseLweearro7 competent to discuss their merits as the Hon tim an w d ords b e e Gentlemen opposite. The question ar os e n words " nature, and to card ments which seemed to be of a weighty of the thing, but the Hon. Membel. appointed." The Hon. Member for Derby bad adduced arga' conviction on the reason arguments, and said t showed an entirely tiff 1 the words "be appointede House. The Hon er. eat in tention on the part of . th for Kendall took eacep.tionat these the m bar f°,, r Cork stated that, ininted meant at least some sort y , apt, . tse., b ! o ° f Pniin appointmentw of the Committee of Sj, ,e House k i t ; Did any member harsh did fR wish to place a ceasstrues> ection, or „ n o , House, ? (Hear, hear.) He tar one on on the sten.' order ossib le readiness, agree to such 8, Cor ould, w ith a ll p as would atimit of the rr truction of the w e ' o f Mr. Smith O'Brien, 'were A snharge f r o m custody foli rti e such a step.—chln -, r , cs-e",,r, hear.) other co nsequences to 305 the matter as the Ho-, At present they were to disstaao and never kad been co Gentleman never was in cu H o n, and Leap Member for Cork If the arguments of th r e oceed , ing Pf. the Committee were to be taken, everY a iP„ car' unatees appointed) by that standing orders, and of . 0 11 and void. If the body, would , be entirely ar pointed, so as to have Committee of Selection were front it would be vicious, no authority, every act emanating fr o and every proceeding of the The on Groups of R • adwas would be in like manner vole• saver House might remedbwoulds this y a vote, or by which m ote tion the proceedings of these Committees ; but that svas : : o b s er-* of comparatively email import. He would confine ma ntanl vations to the sin le words, "be appointed." H e an that the Committee had been appointed constitutionally. It strictly according to the words of the standing ordersointea was not necessary that the Committee should be e octe t by the Hou se , as th e H on. M en b er ha d cons trued th e red to mean ; neither was it necessary that it should be aPr w eicla in the House . It was virtually appointed by sonn ti lierob i. el had previously been done by the House. The ' lnn ' t of also said, that the House had not the appointroeti_r iais for chairman. The moment the House named the m at ! f o rcer the Committee, the s t an di ng or d ers , N o . 4, came a, in qes' 11 and ipso facto the appoi n t men t was ma de. This w d be en al ) " tion for the House to de c id e , f or th e Committee had Gov ern"' pointed by the House, and not by any Member of th e oon • ment, and he hoped it would not be thought tha t a ny Member had taken it in anyERAL other lig said that b e only ht. M ke to make one remark. H e co uld f ee l it was unnecessary to ch any comment on the motion before the House after tn e ,_'`,l pit ho nn t of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Davenport, v 4 _ rks fro made any vein. the question in its proper light, and him wholly uncalled for. . the 11°° Lord POLLINGTON said that the question for ma d e ice to consider was, whether or not a mistake hadbeen to - othing. d the committal of the Hon. Member. They had n art with the inconvenience which might arise out of rej e t the error.—( Hear, hear .) If a mistake had been ma de' once) to at nnsa'- y to House give the Hon. Member the benefit of it by H e had 0 , charging him from custody.—( Hear, bear.) say that, having great doubts as to the construe