The Sun. — London, England, 1805-04-02 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF PEERS. NWNDAIi, APRIL 1. out/ Cr.F.Rl( , was heard in continuation in the Scotch A Flan against the Earl -of Cassilis. Further hear i3l; poit polled tiii to-morrow.. 7,,e...vt.ral Private Bills were brought , up from the Commons and r,:aki a brat time. CATHOLIC P.ETITION The 12Lshap of DURHAM observing in the House N,ble Baron who had introduced the Catholic Petition, begged to know when it was the inten. Jinn of" that Noble 'Lord to tuuve any proceedings on the Petition - Lard GRENVILLE stated, that it was in his crAitemplation to 'move for ;Acing that Petition into cm.iLi,:rstiwi on the TOth day of 'Moty next. It Lnwever trey Noble Lutd wished a delay of a few (Lap LOVA he WilS not aware that any ohjeCtion cooo made to it. il;shop ~/"DUR HAM wished that, in a hysi. ne\u ut so great importance, no unnecessary delay should take place. L9rd G RENVILLE said, it was at present his deterinin'Ation to bring forward the business on the o,th of May. It.IDGE FOX. The Order of the Day on the adjourned Debate on Lord AUCKLAND'S Notioni, fur the opinion•of the it:3l;es on the proceedings of tlae House in Judge Cmie„ being read, Lord Aucitt,ANo submitted an Amendment on the second Motion, when a question arose on the Hot of Order—Lords llAwl:Esti utty, SIDMOUTH, MULGRAVii, CHANCIULok, IlucioNottAmsrintE, ami Rs oasom,E, maintaining that the question on the different Motions should be put disjundively ; therefore, that no Amendment on the second Mo. Lion could take place till the first had been disposed of; and, Lads GRENVILLE, AUCKLAND, CAK. SPi:NCK It, and DAttNLcY, supporting the c.:ntrary proposition.—At length, Lord .A.ucx. Li.No withdrew his Amendment. STANDING ORDER, Lord Gatervo env., after 'shottly alluding to his having been interrupted on a former night on this subject, :toyed that the Standing Order, No. 30, purporting, that if any reek should require the House to go into a Committee, for the purpose of de)iveting his opinion with greater freedom, by hay. ing liberty to speak more than once, it ought not to he refused, be read.—His reason, he stated, was to give a fair opportunity •to Noble Lords to discuss this importartt point with freedom, by speaking as often as they were inclined. A conversation of considerable length ensued on the interpretation of the Standing Order, the Lords CHANCELLOR, HAWKEABURY, REDESDALE,MOR TON, &C. contending that it was not imperative; and Lords GRENVILLE, SPENCE'', 'ELT...ENDO. ROUGH, &C. maintaining that so long as it stood on the Books of the House as one of their Orders it was' entitled to its full weight and effect. The Lo RD CHANCELLOR having, in the course of the discussion, referred to some expressions of the Duxe of CI, Alt ENCX on a former night, charging him with having violated. the Orders of the House e in himself addressing their Lordships mere titan once, Ms Royal llisbness tie PRINCE of WALES rose to express . tehat, had occurred to him as being the meaning and import of the obwrvation alluded to, which had fallen from his Noble Relation. His . Noble Relation, as His Royal •Highness'understood him, wished to establish how essential it was that a liberaliereipt'eiation of the Orders of their Lord ehipa on the usage of Debate should take place.— A N oleic ,F.rietscl ofltis (Lord GlititWILLE) had been called to order that evening by a Noble Earl oppo. eite ;- and the'remark of ills Noble Relative then was, thet the sarpe liberty (that of speaking more than. one ) had been ossinned by the Noble Lord on the Woolsack., and that he thought. it but proper that a similar indulgence should be extended' to his Noble Friend (Lord GRENviLLs), and other Lords tin ther side of the House on which he commonly sat. LI snaking this observation, His Royal High. ness was corn dolts that nothing was more distant from tie mind of Iris Noble Relation than to throw out any improper relic' Aion against any Noble Lord whatever, particularly against any person who had the honour of filling the seat of Speaker of that Il louse ; and he submitted it to the candour of the Noble and Learned Lord himself, if the observation tol.his Noble Relation was not stridly consistent with that liberal praCtice which had generally dis. tinguished the proceedings of their Lotdships. After souse further discussion, Lard GalNyiLLB agreed generally to move for the House going into a Committee, without any reference to the Stand. ing Order. The House having accordingly gone into a Com. mit tee, Laird GkeetV ILLS, in a speech of great abi lity, supported the Motion of Lord AUCKLAND for referring the different points which he had formerly , submitted to the House, for the opt. nion of the Twefve Judges, His Lordship par. iietalarly alluded to the precedents which he had / minted out on a former night, and stated that, in Consequence of the doubts suggested by a Noble and r nest Lord (ELI. est otrou oft), he had caused the R e cords of one of these eases,Bridgeman v. Holt, to he searched for, and it clearly made out his' ori. iisertioo, being a case direaly in point ; tfiere, s t s in the present case, a Petition had been presented to the House against three of the judges of the c ont inuo Picas,. which the Hause ordered them to answer. to the answer lodged, these Judges re. fused to plead the merits of the case unless when ial!ed before a legal tribunal. They, denied the i‘ooeliisHon of their Lord Ships, and m at otstned t h at the c e liioe them herons the H o wes Was contrary to estahle.hed Lice of the land. Oo sousidering the matter, aft:, tH,Liiog the opinichi of :he other Judcs, he C,4ite to be of the same inirid, and the DiiHttfr was 01:,:lihf,CO. f.,QRD ::,'ll/INCELLOR r:capittdated the 1 tai argumeris ss high he hail formerly adduced in support of the etortearoe opinion; maintained that the pre. cedents eerekrreti' to' by: the Noble Lord cr.4d trot o l ipiy, as they octoorred presio , es to the passing of Ole Att ithr,ittcti t_t t L W tLe Wished law of the land that no jualelJl procArding,l - of a criminal nature could originate in that House, but contendectthat the measure now before the House . was not of a judicial nature, instituted with the view of punishment. Ile' could' not, at the same time, see why the Judges should not ha considered as equally safe in the hands of the two Houses • of Parliament as in those of twelve ordinary men, whose yerdita against them would,,if the arguments on the other side went to any thing,be obligatory on their Lordships, and would be a sufficient call on them to address His Majesty for the distnissal of any Judge against what) such a verdia should be found. Lord GRENVILLE could not at all see the meaning of the distintlian laid down by the Noble and Learned Lord. He- stated that this was not a judicial matter, or one to infer punish. tent. It undoubtedly, however, was meant to go the length of grounding an Address to His Majesty for the dismissal of a Judge for improper conduel in his judicial capacity., and such he con. tended could not originate in that House. He would wish the Noble and LTatned Lord to point nut to them where the line was to he drawn, and what, if any thing short of murder, felony, or treason, was to be esteemed without the original cognizance of that House. As to the idea of the Aet of Settle ment subjening the Judges to a jurisciiElion of which they were formerly independent, he saw nothing in the Ail which sanctioned such an idea, but the di. reel contrary. Lord HAVIKESBURY, in along speech, opposed the Motions of Lord AIICRLA'ND, and contended that the proceedings of the Muse had been corn. pletely regular, in this opinion he was seconded by Lord REDESDALE. Lord AUCKLAND defended the positions laid down by Lord GRENVILLE, by recapitulating the arguments which he had formerly adduced in sup port of his Motions. Earl CARYSFORT followed on the same s id e , and deprecated, in strong terms, the idea of subjeCt ing the Judges to a species of controul. from which every other Subject of this Country was exempt — thereby rendering them the tools of the Minister of the day. The Earl of SUFFOLK maintained the necessi ty of resorting to the opinion of the Judges as to the legality of their mode of proceeding. Lord ELLENBOROUGII declared, that his own opinion was decidedly in favour of the pro.. ceeding by Scire .Facial, as the question would thereby have a legal investigation, and as the Learned Judge would then be tried by his Peers. But, as the case now stands, their Lordships had adopted another mode of proceeding. The law clearly said, that they may in certain ca , e3 proceed to address His Majesty far the removal of a Judge ; it was there. fore evident, that they may make inquiry as to the fads upon which that address is to be founded. The words appeared to him to be so unambiguous, and the inference that their Lordships had the legal power of proceeding , as they had dune was so plain and natural, that he had no hesitation in saying that there was no necessity for asking any opinion of the Learned Lords upon tl►e case. Earl DAR msupparted the Motion as the only means of ridding their Lordships' minds of any doubt upon the case. The question was then pot, an►l there Were—, Contents t B—Not Contents 32. Adjourned at haft-past one. HOUSE OF COMMONS. MONDAY, APRIL I. Bowyer's Lottery Bill, the Neutral Ships' Bill, the Prize Ships' Bill, and the American Goods Neutral Ships' Bill were severally teal a third time and passed. A Person front the Office of the Chancellor of the E xehe. quer in Ireland presented a Statement citric Particulars of the Unfunded Debt in I relitntl, on the sth January, rlioc, and an Account of the Char4es out•standing on the Consolidated Fend, —Ordered to lie on the Table, and to be printed. A Person from the Panic of England presented an Account of all the Dollars [,.sued by the Bank of England up to the latest period to which the same could be made up.—Ordered to lie on the Table', and to be printed. The American Trcaty 13111 was read a second time, and or dered to be read a third time to-morrow. Ttie Inukcepers' bill was comniitted.—Report to-morrow TENTH REPORT. Th. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he understood that Lord V iscount MaLYILLI3 had lately written a Letter to the Lords Commis. !illness of Naval Inquiry, which it was of the tit. tnost importance the liouse should be in possession of previous to the discussion upon this subjeB, which stood for Thursday next. If the House had no objedion, be should move for a Copy of that Letter; or, if that was thonght irregular, he should give notice of his intention to do so to-morrow. In case that Letter should give rise to any other pro.. reeding, previous to the day appointed for the Mo. tion on this sobjcB, he Should think' it necessary that the whole should be printed for the information of the Members—a thing which could not possibly bdaccomplislied in sufficient time for Thursday nest; and on that account he should suggest the propriety of some delay taking place. At all events, he err. tainly wished that business to come before the House previoui to the Easter Recess, and therefore thought that some early day in next week might meet with the approbation of the Hon. Gentleman who had given notice of the Motion he alluded to. Mr. GREY rose, in the absence of his fun. Friend (Mr. Kt NNAtitD), to state that it was impos, sible for him to say Whether he (Mr. K.) would con. sent to put off his Motion or not, merely on rie ' count of what the Right Hon. Gentleman had men. tioned to the House. It was a business which ought by no means to be protraded unnecessarily. He was sensible, however, that his Hun, Friend would wish to affurd every opportonity to produce every deco. meat that was deemed to be of importance. lithe Letter alluded to was really of such importance as to justify delay, he should think that a postponement of one day would be sufficient. lie should there. fore, have rio objedion to take upon himself to agree to delay the Motiop from Thursday to Fri. day next. "/"); 1 CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he certainly' thought that the Letter he alluded to was of the utmost importance 't and if any pro. ceedings should take place noon it, it would be ex. ► trefnely desirable to delay the Mutivo till the be.. .;, ~ ; .;-,;)ing of th e VIV.A. Mr: FOX said, lie thought the delay of one day 'Might be sufficient ; and therefore he approved of friday being the day to be fixed., Mr. FR ANClS.reminded the CHANCELLOR of the ExtritQuett that hi; - Motion relative to the Indian War stood for Monday nexi, and it was a subject which could admit of no delay. The CHANCELLOR of rife EXCHEQUER said, he hoped the f-ion.GOnifelati (Mr7ttitiCil)"' would not judge it inconvenient to take an earlier day for his Motion, so as to leave Monday : open for the discussion now in question. . • , Mr. FRANCIS then agreed to bring his Motion forward either on Thursday or Friday. Mr. GREY said, that, under all these circum. stances, he should take it upon himself to allow his Hon. Friend's Motion to lie over till Monday next, understanding that it should positively come on upon that day, unless something, which they were nut then aware of, should occur. Mr. Fit ANC ts then fixed his Motion for Friday next, instead of Monday. The Motion, which the CHANCELLOR of the Ex. ere ;Qv sit had mentioned, was then put from the Chair. It was, " That there be laid before the House a Copy of the Letter addressed by Lord Vis count MELVILLE to the Commissioners of Naval Inquiry, appointed by the Ad 43d of his present Majesty, dated die 28111 of March last, and also any answer thereto by the said Commissioners, with any proceedings that may be had thereOn."—Ordered. GROGAN's ATTAINDER. Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) pursuant to the notice he gave on Friday, moved, That there be laid be. fore the House a Copy of the Evidence and Pro. ceedings before the Committee of the Parliament of Ireland on passing the At of the 38th'year of the Reign of His present Majesty, attainting Cornelius Grogan, Esq. of John's Town, in the County of Wexford, so far as the same regarded the said Cor. nelius Grogan. He said it was proper to apprize the House of his objed in making this Motion. It was, that the evidence taken before the Committee of the Parliament of Ireland may be re-examined, to sec whether it laid a sufficient ground for the pro. ceedings :which were hut in the case of the unfor. tunate Gentleman to , whom he had alluded, and whose life was taken away by the order of a Mi. litary Council ; and by which evidence, he main. tained, it would appear, that nothing could be more flagrant than those proceedings were.—That the life of Mr. Cornelius Grogan was taken away with. out the Verdi& of a Jury, or Trial by Law ; that he was tried by a Military Council, and that the Mem. bers of the Court were not upon oath, and that the necessary formalities were not observed, several omissions of which he enumerated, and concluded with the Motion as we have above stated, Lard C ASTLE,REAGII said, he should have wished that this Motion had been made without some of the observations which had been made upoe it ; he should have no objection to the intormation seemed 'to be' required, if it led to Any pradical proceeding of the House to be founded upon it ; but the Hon.,. Gentleman had mired two things which are totally distinct in their nature : The proceed. ings of the Court Martial by which Mr. Grogan was tried and executed as a Rebel, and afterwards the Aft of Attainder, which was a proceeding in the Parliament of Ireland, founded, not on the evi dence of the Court Martial, but on evidence laid before the Parliament itself, and such as had been held sufficient by that Parliament to justify the Aft of Attainder. lie doubted whether there ex isted now any evidence, which the House could be satisfied with, to induce it to reverse that proceed ing, and the Hon. Member had not stated what parliamentary use he intended to make of the infer. 'nation, such as it might be, after he should obtain it. For these reasons, and wishing nut to deprive the Hon. Gentleman of an opportunity to call for such information whenever he should make out a case to entitle hitn to its production, the Noble Lord moved—That the other Order of the Day be now read. Mr. MARTIN imputed this opposition to a wish in the Noble Lord to shelter the Administration, of which he was a Member. He con s ide re d M r . Gro. gan as a person who was justified in what he did un. der the authority of .Lord Coke and Lord Hale, who laid it down us the law of our land, that a man may join rebels to save his own life, and continue with them under the terror of its loss, until he shall have an opportunity .to escape ; this, he said, was the case of that unfortunate Gentleman. He considered, therefore, that his execution was an aft of murder, and that the Attainder was an ad of confi,cation, founded on an at of murder. The Noble Lord's op. prehension fell short of the - fad, when he supposed there was not evidence sufficiently formal to be laid before the House. lie knew there was carted evi deuce of the whole proceeding. He had seen it.— As to the use he intended to make of it, he intend ed to lay it before Parliament with a view to have the Mt of Attainder reversed. He entered into some details of the rebellion, ice. at Wexford. Mr. FOX was in favour of the Motion on the ge. neral ground of propriety in deliberately and dispas sionately examining Attainders, after the heat and fury which generally gave t h em bi rt h had evaporat ed; and the best parts of our history were marked by the reversal of Bills of Attainder. If Motions of this kind were rejeded, Bills of Attainder, com. mostly the worst Ads of the Legislature, would be come irreversible. Lord C ASTLE RE ACII said, that nothing could be further from his wishes than to prevent Palle wilt from receiving every possible information upon the subjeft ; and the only reason that induced him to move the Order of the Day was, that the Hon. Gentleman had not stated what his objed was in calling for this evidence, or what Parliamentary proceeding he meant to ground upon it. The Lion. Gentleman hall now stated his objed to be that of reversing the Bill of Attainder against Mr. Grogan, whieh certainly was a fair Parliament ar y ground for calling for the document in question ; an d therefore he would, with the leave of the House, withdraw his Motion. Sir 101 IN N WPORT said, that the family of Mr. (.Jr'rogan had been in very extraordinary; and, indeed, most utifo i rtunate eitcumatances. The very next brother to Mr. Grogan, and who would have barn his immediate heir had he survived bins, felt honourably, loyally, arld gloriously, fighting the blttles of his Coantry. The other brother with the most determined bravery, till driven out of 'Wexford by the Rebels, who wer e greatly sue". riot in numbers, before the main body oirc f theumstances, Mg arrived, and therefore, under all these c added to a doubt whether Mr. Grogan himself IA not been forced to fight on the side of thi he thought the justice of the House would i ncline them to agree - te the MotiOn4: —. General La Frus said, he was in Wexford at the time of the Court Martial upon Mr. Grogan, and he begged leave to state, that the Officers til an° l formed the Court were the princip al men of reek charaEter in the Army, and every attention had bees paid it, the careful examination of the witnesses. After the sentence was passed, he was told by mot persons of the town, that Mr. Grogan was not ire el much to blame as he appeared t o be ; oil ' applied to General Lake to suspend the exec utio ner the sentence for some time, till h e could make fur: then inquiry ; to which General Lake consenten,sot cite execution was defeated t ill evening, when being able to find any filets in his fav our to counter. poise, or do away the eviden ce adduced splint him, he went to infant] General Lake of the cis. cumstance, and the execution then took plarc! Mr. MARTIN explained. Lord CASTLEREAGH said , he was an xious Is do justice to the charafters of Mr. Grogan's brottic,o and family, by allowing that they had always 11 , 11 ' tinguished themselves by the most anshaltenlo/ anti attachment to their King and Country, l b ', Government had shewn its setae of their co0 0 ,„ l a conveying the confiscated eatate to a near tel' , " o, of the family.—His Lordship's Motion ws° I t o with the leave of the House, withdrawn, 111'. original Motion was agreed to. 0 1 the Mr. MART' er then moved f or a .Retutn,,,,, ~' particulars of the expences a ttending criminal Irvf ee UtiOrial in Ireland, concluded at the expend tit of Crown, from the Ist of Jan. i795' tc)'"4 Jan. *Soh—Ordered. Mr. J. FITZ:3ERAD stated, that en lyre a of of Feb. two Orders were made fo r the prialltet 9%"ilekeen • certain Papers, and in all that ti tint: nothing 10„, done in them. If there was any thing 10 0 . 4 ee ;, ment in Ireland, in the space f seven wr o f , ' might have been done. He referred, theret...lo to the SPEAK s a, for a proper form of w ords in" . The SPEAKER said, to shape his future procedure. 110 1°6 it was his duty to i n f orm t h e t e nn ,-Gentl er ! J o.oo the House, that,, first in the i nstance ofneJori course, was.tn repeat the Order in a more Per eg iroit manner, that the Return be made forthwith':ooo•, was not complied with, to order the l'e n ' toe" that being thus es 0 . 0 1 sons, whose duty it was to make the ROW, , tend the H o use, and answer fur theergle6,: be to Mr. FITZGEIALD then moved, that e turned forthwith.--Ordered. MILITIA REDUCTION The CieenceLLoe. of the Excleeeo,llll o ft ,11 0 the Order of the Day for the ' third tead in b 110 Militia Reduaien Bill. The Bill was f e t a te time, and a Clause added for regulating ttrt ances to the Wives and Families of theft.° ed under the Bill. On the question that the Bill do Pall' etef (or Lord DOUGLAS repeated owl t' - ci that!' BILL; .0004 objeetions to the measure, and contenori: hid bdiscrl i m h e tt a m sur i e li w tia a: o b f y of the arguments of those who ePr ie4 answered by the Gentlemen on the 011% 00 0 r) , - petty from the Service, and destroying t "" a d rPievritn'igciGtiesn7lactmureen' of I : ll ,, n c ti o g n a l;d r e fac; of the Men in their Officers. s e Of ente r ' Mr. SHERIDAN rose for the 1 016 :his ing his protest against the principle d he bie He remained of the'same opinion thati4oble would (kern,' merly expressed. He agreed with l o s Sylt e7 ' that this Bil l the MI d o ,oo' and in a manner the most unprinciplea angegotath It would lead to insubordination in th e :o e 80 4111 :: and was dangerous in a constitutional wise in a military one. One obie°,__ ll , c ' lll/ t o A d When, was, to take notice of the Preeinw e l t hat 10 was stated, ft Whereas it is toti"' ita ; ns itiefi te ,: e n MAtasty's Regular Forces should b e ,: ov ery " made Was k not known at the P` 1 0 " 1 , 4 6e 111 . 141 :eli of last Session, when the Right " a n - t bs, t ; 1 0 1, he asked, had this important '' of oie counted the days a nd weeks, anti 00 _ e pste , • ?He an augmentation could be obtetnet hap g l s; that the Preamble of this Bill ought for i tt gillen t to , as an .Att wan passed last Session ch His MAI ?STY 's Regular Faces ,. v l 1 , 1 re tally failed in its object, it is there',„,) h t that the said Aft should be repealed' g 11 0 Its This, he maintained, was the langul via . to ce j to be employed, inasmuch as a Bill boa n o t prt o produced seventeen thousand men l'A' ' f gg a single man. The CHANCELLOR of th e ado b e ll el°. observed, that the statement In a- O. cci' f dig Gentleman was the very reverse 0 vrio a ,,, , b oo, Mr. FOX said, so far his Hen. io n 10 4 0 tainly incorrect, that more than n ii n W as cef`oool gained by die Defence ACI, hut • e o pt' stating, that the Aa had fallen the promise with which it was orifg l l . o o no" fi ef otnpally geoloo,l nied, The Right Hon. Gentlemen ' was n erf out in March, that some new vll4,oer A t o uP by which to recruit the Army, I ' lB moat o,4oett ing failed ; for to its failure buted the inc roduCtion of the Bill a s . e d it ss the Right Honourable Gentl e° Ott the Regular Recruiting was going " II A O' fully. tile d el AefOrid er The SECRETARY at Wills fo ol id ) ;,, o°' • (tonal Detence AO, which, sit la' produced a *tole man, as assert' fi f t eeo ' it ,c . Gentleman opposite, had, for thclo t k, , v ire r ite, crre' furnished from rBo to zoo men P e ; r , , r , t r the rate of nine or ten thousand Pin and Ireland, in the year, wit'ver '/),Adiot, ;nee with the Regular Recruiting:fence v , I t o t opposite had asked, It the D' 0 111.• ceeded, why have recourse to r‘is,,,,,se 1,0 alot.iecore the would answer, to increase the hig hly the Country, a circumstance so rop .'But," says the N,ble Lor a, est i of l'' 0 1;$ 11° 1 0' faith with the men," as if, in t lunta" to oe , the Regular Service, we had Prci t t t _- vo bounties to induce th em e v to rest tbeul i nt o it. As fottgl !hl It