The Sun. — London, England, 1823-06-26 00:00:00

elation that they might all of them 'be perfectly well per-' formed iii England : and therefore he argued there was no more to be done but at once to rule Ireland directly from Lon -don. Ile l(Mr. (3oulburn) differed entirely in opinion from the LIOn. Gentleman, and thought his proposition a fatal one to the interests both of Ireland and of this country. He saw ho point of recommendation about the motion beyond a possi bility of saving; and he had been obliged already more than once to tell the lion. Gentleman that economy was not the only business of a Government. Was it an argument to be ,listened to, that because Ireland cost England 400,0001: a-year, that she shOuld therefore be left to have a King of her own, anttaa manage her.affitirs herself? This wait the argument of ' the BiOnourable member (Mr. llama); 'but he (Mr. Goulburn) trustful the house would concur with hint and other wise and great men, that the question was not what could be saved by the abolition of a particular office, but what was the mode in which Ireland could . be governed Most efficiently, cliff with the most of regard and conciliation to the feelings of the people. The hon. Gent. had, as he was accustomed to 46. - made short work of the duties of the Irish Meerut - tient ; one thing might be done one way—another thing might be done another way -4 third thing Deed ,not be done Wall, and so on , through the catalogue ;' but lie trusted to convince the House be fore he let down, that the mist important of the duties attach ing te the Office of Lard Lieutenant had not beete noticed by the honeGerrt. at all. The hon. Gent. had not considered the effect of withdrawing the executive government from a country where its elmost daily Intervention was required, .either to re . piees tumult, or to ameliorate the condition of the people. Ile . heti entirely omitted, in his deteil of the Lord Lieutenant's du ties, that most important one, the superintendence of the dispen sation'ofjustice, and of criminal justice more especially. He had told the 'house that the Lord Lieutenant's only bueiness ley in the signing of warrants, and had never supposed the necessi. ty of any consideration as Ai the matter Which those warrants eonteined; As regarded a country like Ireland, where criminal eoevietions were unfortunately so nnmerous, it would be. linpossible for the superintendence of executive jitetice to be carried- on et. a . .distanee. In the course of the last year no lets than 4th) capital cases had been referred upon petition, to *the Lord Lieutetinnt. ,Ilow could those petitions be transmit teal to London tier consideration ? By granting a respite in each case of ten days, perhaps, the Honourable Member for Aber . item would say, and so allowing time for an answer to coniefrom .england t but surely the House would not be so dead to all feel . ings at' humanity, so forgetful of every principle of the policy of executive jostice,aa to entertain, even in nrgiiment, such a prop°. :Alden - nit. a moment. There were others reasons, however, and forcible ones, fur continuing the Government of Ireland in its present form. The people were pleased, their feelinge were gratified, by the residence of an emblem of authority among 'therm Ile (Mr. Goulburr) was convinced, that if every vestige of independent Government was removed, and the business of Ireland transacted in London, there would be a universal, feel ing excited through that country that the interests and the wishes of the people were neglected. The loss, too, of what ever patronage the Lord-Lieutenant's presence might afford, was a matter which, if of small actual importance, would be galling to the feelings of the Irish, and those feelings it was an object in every way to soothe. But supposing , the Lord-Lieu. tenant to be removed, there were two modes in which the Go- Vertiment of the country might be carried on.--:the one, by mak ing a separate establishment in England for the particular pur pole ; and the other, by keeping an officer resident in Ireland, not nominally a Lnrd-Lieutenant, but having, to most intents and purposee, the 'powers and authorities of one. The hon. Member for Aberdeen wished to have the business done in England, and to vest all the duties of the Irish Government in "thelutods of the Secretary of State. In fact,' the Hon. Mem lief thought those duties so light and trivial, that they might be'added as a kind of makeweight to threw of an office already existing. But it could hardly be necessary for him (Mr. Goal. hurt;) to demonstrate the impossibility of much an arrangement. —lf the 'millets 'of governing Ireland was to be transacted in' thin country, it would be absolutely necessary to appoint Another Secretary of State, who should give his undivided at tendee to the affairs of that kingdom ; and how such an este blieinnent should be much cheaper than a hordeLieutennney, lie did met, he must o wn , ve r y exac tly see , un l ess it could be shewn that it was less expensive to carry business to a dis tance, than to settle it upon the spot where it actually arose.-- AOd was this all the expence which would be conseeuent upon the adoption 'of the llon..Member of Aberdeen's petition's By' no means. The Hon. Member objected to the existence of one Lord Lieutenant, but he had no objection, it seemed, to the existence of thirty-two and his proposition indeed was to dee pose the present 'ion? Lieutenant, creating at the same time thirty-two other Lord Lieutenants (one in each county), each of these 'officers being furnished with powers no whit inferior to those with which the single existing Lord Lieutenant was In. vetted ; for the Hon. Member talked of appointing Lord Lieu tenants of counties as in Scotland and England ; but he quickly perceived that the ditforent condition of Ireland front those countries would not allow him to stop there; and he was com pelled therefore to go . on; giving these officers military nutho. rity over the troops ne their respective comities, and in fact en abling them to discharge, except as regarded the superintend. emus of.executive justice, the most important duties belonging to the Lind Lieutenant of Ireland himself. The hon. Member however had other objects besides a mere saving connected with his - proposition. He wished to put an end, or a check at least, to the progress olfaction ; and he looked at the residency of Ire. land as a sort of point round which it was apt to collect itself. Bat did the hon. Gent.. then mean to have no officer resident in Ireland ? Upon whom was the Secretary of State in England to rely? Prom whence was that officer to derive his informetion MIA) particidar, or even as to passing matters ? Wile lie to trust to chance intelligence from persons of whose character lie knew nothing ? He (Mr. (limlburn) wished to know how the enumunication was to' be managed and kepi up? The men tion of Scotland was not witch in favour of the argitment of thb Honourable Gentleman. Theinconvenienees arising from • time to time from the wanrof a local executive there, had been more or lase adtnitted ; but in any case there was enough to prevent any desire of imitating the example set them by the in stitutions of that country. lie knew that there was a sug gestion put forivard by some, for establiShing a resident officer in Ireland, instead of the Lord Lieutenant and hie Court. The question then would be, If this new officer were to have as much power linlged in his handy as the Lord Lieutenant, or less ? if the powers were equal, there could be nothing im portant io the alteration ; it the officer were to have inferior rank and powers to his Lordship, it was much to be feared that his authority would be insufficient tbt the duties of his office. The lion. Gentlemen had asserted, that the offices in Ireland were chiefly, tilleel with Protestants ; he had offered the Stamp Depertment as an instance, allegiug that there were two ea . tlielies employed in it. Now, to his certain knowledge, • there were for the County of Galway alone, three Ca tholic Distribntors of Stamps. He did not deny that the offices were chiefly filled by Protestants, and it must be so as long as the greater part of the Property belonged to the Protestation Besides, what particular benefit could the honourable Member hope for front employing Cathollee in stead Of Pretegtant? lie could assert, upon the best authority, that'neither the present Lord Lieutenant, nor either of hie two last ;predecessors, ever made any inquiry ati to the religion of persons appointed to fill the offices : the only ground of' re commendation Intel been'the fitness of the parties. The die., proportion of Catholics and Protestants was no evidence of the pitetiality of thq Irish Governmeot. Ile would admit thet a -few thousands a-year might be saved by abolishing the Vice- Itegal Government; but would it be desirable; in the present sittrAiiors of Ireland, to do away with a local Executive at this 17 cry time so anxiously engaged in directing the civil and mili tia), departments; of that country, in order to restore its tran quality ? Above nil the topics in the speech of tile Hon. Gen ttereisn., !timelier, he objected to thaproposition of examining int , rthe subject by means of a Commission; Upon what a foot ing wtfuld the Goverrunent of that country, even now not too powerful for the exigency; be placed on the'artivid of Commis storierieto examine Into the functions of the Executive Officers, tread .to rneke Inquiries among those who were subordinate into ,tti:4 manner of discharging those *functions ? It was plain that the Government must s. into in its cone:Ate:nee, and that its au .tberit y would berweakeucd in the same proportion. If the sub-. act demanded inquiry, he the House undertake the task. After recapitulating his previous arguments, he concluded by oppo. •sia4 the motion. fisr H. PA RN ELL said, that after all the consideration which -ballad given to thie subject foe a length of time past, be had. been driven to the conclusion, that it would be for the benefitof Ireland if the Motion of his lionouvablo Wend should be carried.. If the Comititution of England: were to he imparted to Ireland, the toed executive woUldbe rather a hindrance to die efficacy of it than otherwise. his reason for thinking so was, that, the Lord Lieutenants, generally speaking, soon after enter ing upon the Government, became totally separated from the -views of the English Government. They were surrounded by Mena or partizans of some kind or other, and it scarcely ever o tiappened that their conduct was not more or less, in the end, qpubject to the bias (done party. He did not see any objection to'sboliehing.the office on practical groilnds. Most of the Wee dye biesitterss was done in this country. All the business rehit , in co the artily Weis done here—all the business . of the Ex. e dimple. Was now -done here. it to the reffitirs of internal.go vernment; they would be much , more. effectively administered under a Secretary of State; . aided by county Lord Lieutenants. If they w ould look into-the d 'patches orthe Marqu Is Wellesley, ( they would . see ,his Lordship generally communicating n'ith a chief of. police, or a Colonel of troops, and sometimes the* was the signature of a Magistrate who - was. scarcely known to hi., own county.; there weseseldoin or ever any one • or higher rank, than the labouring police—he believed he , might say that there was no instance of any person of dignificel,station being concerned in tha .eorreepondenee. • „-ells knew that watt) , difficulties might be set up in opposie tion to *fiat he 'had advanced. It Voultllie asked What were to do in exigent cases where an immediate appeal to the. Executive might be necessary,: such as in capital convictions, where the Government might incline to remit the chief.penalty. But it was to be considered that there were twilve Judges in Ireland as well as here, and surely there could be no difficulty between their exertions and those of the Lords Lieutenant to provide for cases of that nature as well as was done at preient. The feeling of the people of Ireland would, without doubt, be offered as another objection. For his own part, he believed that the greater part of the people of Ireland were totally in difkrent to any such question ; or, if they felt it at all, it was with a desire to see the local Executive abolished. The visit of the King produced more lively and agreeable Sensations than the longest Lieutenancy had ever produced. He considered that the vice-regal office was quite in the way of the proper in fluence of the Royal Authority. It would be for the advantage of Ireland, and for the influence of Government in that coun try, if a more direct communication were opened between them than the Castle at present afforded. There might be some feel. ing of opposition among the people of 'Dublin, but their only .reason could be the expenditure of a very small sum of money among them, which would no longer be expected. They would consider, however, that Dublin was growing in commercial en terprise ; the trade was 1,000,000/. a year more in 1822 than upon the average of five years before the Union. The crowds of respectable young men who flocked to the University, and the passage of travellers going into Ireland, would more than compensate them for the absence of a Court, the head of which usually lived in retirement, and with close economy. Ile would vote for the motion. Mr. D. BROWNE opposed the motion, and felt convinced that the very mention of it in Dublin would raise a sort of re bellion. Mr. PEEL said, that as he had filled one of the offices which the Honourable Gentleman proposed to abolish, and now fill ed that upon which is was proposed to charge the duties, he thought he had some claim upon the attention of the Haase. The question which they had to consider was, whether or no they thought it advisable, in the present circumstances of Ire land, to abolish the local executive government. The whole merit of the proposition lay in the advice of the Hon. Member to put Ireland upon the sante felting of Government as Wales, or any other subordinate kingdom or provinee' which had been in corporated with the British empire. lie conceived that Ireland was by no means in i fit state for effecting that change. It was not a question of expence, hut of expediency and policy; and a few thousands of pounds could not weigh at all in the considera tion of it. He thought that a local executive was an essential and necessary check upon a country so remote, which was an ancient kingdom, and till within the last 20 years had a separate legis lature. On the other hand, what with the growingopulation and commerce of this kingdom, the duties of the Home office were now quite as much as one man could faithfully execute. The House would consider, that in the exercise of that great prerogative of mercy, it was the duty of the Home Secretary to communicate personally with the Judges upon each particular case; to try each case over again, in tact. This was only one branch of the duties of that office, which, as he had observed, were quite enough for any one man. Now, if the Irish affairs were to be turned over to the same hands, as the labour would, then be too mu c h, was th e re no danger that between the inte rests of Wales, and Scotland, and Ireland, some of them might be neglected, and was it not very likely to happen to the inte rests of that country which was most remote from immediate observation ? To prove to the House what would be the pro. hable augmentation of • business in the Home Office by acced ing to the motion, he would only mention, that in the past year there were in Ireland 11,312 criminal convictions; out of those, there were applications for mercy in 2,400 cases, out of ' which, 400 capital sentences were set aside. If a separate Secretary of State should be appointed for Ireland, the incon venience of his abience from that Ireland would be highly injua riot's, and yet it could not be avoided, for he must sit in Parlia ment.—(Mr. Hume said, "So he does now.")—Yes, he did so now; but now there was a Lord-Lieutenant in Dublin, whose presence effectually prevented the danger which might arise from the neglect of subordinate agents. The lion. Gentleman had said that the appointment of a Secretary of State instead of the Lord-Lieutenant would remove hint from the influence of party, and all the prejudices which party engenders, because he would reside, of necessity, in England. If this reasoning were correct, it would follow that the Secretary of State of Eng land could discharge his duty better by remaining in Dublin, or perhaps at Holyhead, where he would not be assailed by El - nth:et or Irish party prejudices, unless some gentleman should think he was in danger from those of Wales. The Honourable Gentleman had urged, too, as a reason why the office of LoriMieutenant should be abolished, that lie had lost all that patronage which wits of real importance to the interests of the people still remained in the hands of that functionary— that of the church and of the law ; and he would ask how it was possible that this patronage could be usefully or wisely excr etsed without local knowledge of the country was possessed by the person to whom it was intrusted. The Right Hon. Oen. tlemen proceeded to expatiate upon the inconveniences which. would attend the measure proposed by the motion before. the House. He requested Gentlemen to conelder-:erecollecting as well the rebellion of 1798 and the .disturbances of 1803, as the existing state of that country—whether it would be wise to dis pence with the advantages of a local government, and whether tt was possible that a sufficient vigilance could be exerted over the affairs of Ireland without the immediate authority of a su perior direction. If these were conceded to him, then the house must agree that it would not be wise to weaken in any measure' that local government ; anti he would ask any . ono acquainted with Ireland, whether the arrivaleif a commission at Dublin would not be regarded as they superseding of the Lord Lieute nant. He did not stay to examine if the people were wise, or it they were philosophers, but he knew that this would be the effect. of the measure. It were much better that the Lord Lieu tenant should be removed at once ; he would rather that the Government of Ireland should at once be committed to a Secre tary of State, who was not suspected, than that it should re- Main in the hands of a Lord Lieutenant, the expediency of the duration of whose office was thus to he made a matter of doubt. He hiul the greatest doubts of ,the expediency of the proposed measure • but, laying them aside on the present occasion, he thought he had said enoueli to show the House, that in the pre sent circumstances of Ireland nothing could have a more sus. chievous effect upon the country at large than disturbing the local government. . ' Mr. AIIERCROMBV thought, that as the proptisition be. fore the House was, whether an inquiry should be made into the beat mode of governing Ireland, and as there was quite enough of suspicion about the present Goiernment to justify such an inqpiry, the subject deserved, at least, a fair and im {p,artial consideration by Parliament. Ile thought his lion. Friend (Mr. Hume) had been unfairly dealt with : he had men, tioned the subject of expellee butonly as a minor part of the case, and not that point upon which it was mainly tardy. It should not be taut that this question was to be disposed of upon grounds of economy, but upon the broad grounds of wisdom and policy. He was willing to admit that upon abstract principles Ireland was entitled to a local Government ; but the question to be do. cided was, whether the experience of late yeara, and the change `of circumstances, had not now rendered the alteration which was proposed expedient. He would admit, too, that it was fit the person intrusted with, the Government of Ireland should be possessed of local information e but this argument was not conclusive. The rulvantage of having the Minister for Ireland identified with the Cabinet of England, and being ready to answer in his place in Parliament to all that might arise, was obvious, and would afford a better chance of security to the people of Ireland by the scrutiny which the subject would then undergo. How the matter wasto be carried into exe cution, would be a matter of detail which must be afterwards considered. He had hoped to have heard from the Right Honourable Gentleman, who, in his double capieity of Mi nister for England and for IMAM', was well qualified to afford information upon this topic, sonic better reasons than those which he had advanced against the 'resolution; but with the exception of this single objection • respecting the administration of justice in criminal 'cases, his doubts had been confirmed, and even that might, he thought, be re moved. The object of appointing a Committee. would not be to proceed invidiously ; it was only to lay before the House, in the best Manner possible,' information upon a sub ject. which involved, perhaps, the best interests of Ireland. No offence could be meant to, or could he taken by the Lord. Lieutenant by any mea s u re adopted by that House, in which, it` it were polled, hi s L or d e hi p ' s Friends would be found to have a large majority. • Ilis opinion had been strengthened by what he had heard during the discussion; he thought the public was much indebted to his Hon. Friend (Mr., Hume) for having bronght this subject bef4e the attention of Parliament; and he believed that the measure he had suggested, whatever might belts fate now, and however it might be opposed, must eventu ally be adopted. Sir J. NEWPORT could not concur in the resolution. lie thought nothing could be moro'injurious to the interests of Ireland, or more irritatheg to the feelings of the people, than the proposal before the. House. .If lie were in,the situation of the Lord Lieutenant, and a Comtnittee should be appointed to inquire into the necessity of the existence of his office, he should not feel warranted in holding it one hour longer : but he spoke only from his feelings, and different people had different feel ings. 'When Gentlemen talked of the danger to which Ireland was exposed, and reasoned front that in favour of the resolution, he would refer them to a period 'of danger during a very wise adminiatration—that of Queen Elizabeth ; and he reminded them how different a policy was then adopted. When revolt and rebellion disturbed Ireland, that Queen did not remove the Lord Deputy, but sent a Lord President to the disturbed provinces, to aid in restoring them to tranquillity: she caused the seat of government to approximate as nearly as possible to the disorders, and where mischief was, thither she sent the re medy. lie had spent a long life, and during a large portion of • that life list'. assisted in - t1 discus4ons of Parliament; in the course a nature he should probably soon take his departure, but he was glad to have this opportunity of stating his firm conviction, the result' of his experience, that there could be no measure by which the feelings of the people of Ireland were more likely to be exasperated than that of the removal of the seat of Government. They would look upon it as the last scene of their degradation ; they would think that the expects.. dons which had been held out to them at the Union were all destroyed.—(Hear, hear !)—The evils of non-residence would Kincreased ; , the, nobility, many of whom, he could name if it Were necessary, and who remained in that country at present, would quit it as soon as the C'ourt should be removed. He had never felt a more decidtsl conviction than he did in giving a negative to the motion beforathe Heim. Mr. CANNING said, that the opinion which he had formed upon this subject before the debate had Commenced was fortified•by what he had since beard. Although the testimony was conflicting upon the subject, the conclusion from general principles was so obvious that he thought it could not be mis taken. Let the House suppose that a few years had passed since this measure of removing the Government from Ireland had been adopted. The, Secretary of St a t e wo u ld of necessity be ignorant of all those local peculiarities which under the pre sent system were so accurately detailed. He could not con ceive any thing more extraordinary than that 'the House should consent to strike away all those advantages which were derived from the presence of Ministers who had served an apprenticeship to the Irish Government. But the motion before the House afforded in itself the best proof of the value of local information : for it was proposed to send a commission to Ireland to collect that local information before the House should, decide. It was not ventured even to • lay the foundation for that abstinent form of Govern ment which was to . be recommended until such information should be obtained. If this, then, were to go on, commissions must of necessity be appointed as often as it was necessary to procure information ; and instead of collecting it without shock or confusion, the House must send Commissions, each with power equal to that of' a Ford Lieutenant, to collect and bring home particulars which they were certain must be pro cured during a perturbed state of the public mind. That in formation was best gathered and laid by for future use, during the ordinary current of events, and not by fits and snatches, as often as separate events required separate inquiries. But the chief objection to the measure was, that its effect would inevi tably be, that if the executive government were removed; the practical power would be thrown into the hands of parties. Two generations of English Ministers, however short, would not have passed before the person.holding the office of Secre tary of State would find himself obliged to pin his faith upon some individual or some connexion in Ireland ; and all those evil consequences must ensue, to correct which the power of England had been exerted. The table of the House would be covered with petitions, complaining that, owing to the distance of the - executive Government, no Minister, however well-intentioned, could possess sufficient information for the due administration of justice. He could not lay out of the question, that in the present temper and condition, of Ireland, the loss of the sum of 100,0001. a-year, and all thatgrew out of the expenditure of the Court would be a conaiderableevil to the people of that count r y, w h et h er t h e c ha s m which it 'would make in their commerce, or the effect it might have upon their feel ings were regarded. He could not but think this would be breaking the last link which bound the two coontries together, and adding to sore feelings and distress at a moment when feel ings were sufficiently irritated and distress sufficiently severe.— On these grounds he not only decided against any change in the Government of Ireland, but against any inquiry which should seem to imply that Parlinmentmediated such a cliange—a mea sure than which lie thought nothing could be less advisable, or, in the present state of that country, more mischievous. After a few words froth Mr. DAWSON and Mr. It. MARTIN against the motion, _ _ - Mr. C. H. HUTCHINSON regretted that he could not concur in the motion of his Hon. Friend. He was convinced that very great mischief would be occasioned if, at this moment, there appeared any disposition on the part of Parliament to re move the Marquis Wellesley from the . Government of Ireland ; and were the proposition now before the House to be carried, he had no doubt that it would give rise to an idea that Par.. liament slid entertain such a feeling. If it were to go abroad that Government did not intend to support the coarse of policy marked out by that 'Noble Person, very unfortunate consequences would inevitably be the result. Although some circumstanees had occurred in the course of the Noble Mar quis's administration, which were calculated to prod-ace feelings of pain, still he thought it was wise and proper to sup port him, until bis system of policy was clearly and plainly de veloped. His should,' therefore, give the motion a - negative, lest the motives of the House should be misconceived if they came to an opposite conclusion. It might be right to appoint such ,a commission as his Hon. Friend moved for, but the imment, in his opinion, was not a proper moment for such a .proceeding. ; When his lion. Friend spoke of the enormous expenee meanest by the military force, and by the number of barracks in I reland, wh a t a n swer did ie (Mr. Hutchinson), as an Irishman, give to him P It was by retorting on his Hon. Friend, ;nd on the British nation, that abominable system of misgovernment, which had been pursued for centuries by this country towards Ireland —a system which had converted Ireland into one great barrack. It was true there had been, and there was, a promse eitpenditure, at once injurious to Ireland and disgraceful to this country t lint the Government of England was to-blame - for it. lie felt most deeply the miseries under which Ireland now suffered.; and, if his voice could reach that country, he would exhort every portion Of his countrymen to bear their fate with .patience, an d not to let feelings of anger hurry them to a- breach of the laws, which would only add to their miseries. Sir ii.i111414 opposed the motion. .Mr. LWME .replied. In submitting this proposition to the Hotise t he had no idea of reflecting on the government of the ,Marquis Wellesley; and if Gentlemen pleased, he.Wlll4 willing to add to his-rnotton, that it was not meant in any degree to refer to that Noble Person. The Chief Secretary for Ireland andt , z for me Departinent, had the ot,h l in aniiyghway,ol. anSmecv.erreetsql.is the llti observations, 'I hey. had con tended against arguments conj ure d up bithemselvoi but Which he .(111r. Hume) tail never even thought of. - 'rue saving of 130,000/, a year, which would be 'effeeted if his motion were adopted,' was nothing it compered with the extent of benefit which would be securedin other respects. He did not propose that the change should take place now : that was an error into which the Gentlemen opposite had most unaccountably fallen., He was willing, Wit would please the House, to leave out the words, a, commission to inquire," and to substitute " take into its consideration. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the gallery was nearly cleared for a division, when - • Mr. IItIME expressed hia intention not to divide, observing, that probably a similar motion would, ere long, emanate from the other aide of the House. The motion was negatived without a division.' IRISH DIOCESAN SCHOOLS.. Sir J. NEW POE.? rose to submit to the House the motion of which he had given notice, relative to the accounts of Dio cesan and Parish Schools in Ireland, and the reports of the Com missioners of. Education there, with the view of more detailed inquiry,at the commencement of the ensuing Session into , the means of impartintr most efficaciously to the whole body of the people, with ou t tr il, ; ions distinction, it s e s sential benefits, and rendenng the funds available which were destined for that great national object. His object, lie obServed, was to pledge Par. !lament that th e y wo uld. at an early period neat year, enter into a foil - investigation of this intere s ting qUestion,' in order that they might deliberately consider what had been done for the general education -or the people of Irefarid. Parliament ought to ex erc i se its inquisitorial r,pow, and to see that funds which were l e f t f or t h e educat i on of lie people, without gard to difference of religion, were applied, thrcragh the proper H channels, to tha t most i mportant purpose . e had, at the commencement of the Session, moved for various papers, which threw great light on this subject. However Gentlemen might differ on other points, h e believed they all agreed on this—that general education was the most certain mode by which the situ non or Ireland could be ameliorated. Diane years ago, edu cation WIN looked upon as the only effectual cure for the evils by which Ireland was borne down. In 17117 the sub ject was d e epl y cons i dered, and a p l an o f genera l e d uca tio ns, woabout to be set on f oot : b u t the death of the Duke of Rutland prevent e d t h e pro j ect f rom b e ing carried into effect.l In March, 1780, a Bill was brought in, appointing Commis- Monet% to in qu i re i nto the dispos i t i on o f a ll revenues w hi c h h a d been intended for charitable institutions. The Commissioners discovered that in the p rov i nc e of Ulster, the public grants which were voted fbi the support of the Protestant free schools had been diverted from that object. The Commissioners under that act of Parliament, which is continued by a subsequent act down to Jun) MO, detected numerouS abuses of the grossest re tore t ley found th at i n man y instances the money which should have been devoted to the education of the people, hail made its way i nto t h e poc k ets o f private individuals. In 1796, it bei ng di scovered t h at perso n s of weight and consi deration had to expire, anti in those abuses, the act was suffered ti no report was made to Parliament. In 11106 Magistrate' s bo o k, conta i ning a statement of the conduct of those who bad abused certain charities, happened to fall into hi s (Sir J. Newpo r t' s ) ba n d s, which'be immediately cornrouni-, cated to the th en L or d L i eutenant , t h e Duke of Bedfo r d, an d also toot old f r i en d of his, who was then in office. With their 'assent and approbation he subsequently brought forward a mo tion for the appointment of Commissioners of Education, who were nominated under the Act of the 46th of late King. A number of mast useful reports emanated front those Coinmis sioners. In consequence of their representations, beneficial mea sures were adopted with respect both to Royal andprivate lactic foundations, and they afterwards entered on the aubject of" parodhial schools. These schools were - cadered to be founded it the time of Henry VIII.; immediately after the Reformation. It was then enacted that every parochial clergyman, on enter ' ing on his benefice, should contract a solemn engagement to keep or causeto}se kept a school for teaching the English lan guage. Annexe these schools were to be various Fends, the profits of which were to be applied to the extension of the be nefits of education to the people in' general. At a very early period the anxiety of the people for those benefits was very re markable. Generally speaking, the legislature was too much in a hurry, however, to reap the fruits before the soil had been properly cultured; and he could not help expressing his wish that before any particular tenets were endeavoured to be taught the poor, their minds should be first properly prepared to re ceive and understand them. The Right Ilonourable Baronet then alluded to the establishment of diocesan schools in Ire land, as projected by a statute passed' the 10th of July, 1813, in conformity . with the report of some Commissioners who had been appointed to inquire into all matters connected with this subject. To chew how little the original project had been pursued, and to prove how necessary inquiry into the matter was, he would refer the House to the returns of diocesan schools lately laid before them. From the dioceses of lailaloe, Meath, and others, and the Archbishopricks of Armagh and Tuam, no return at all had been forwarded. These returns, however, were, in fact, almost entirely unintelligible. In the Archbisho pric of Tuam, where there were 24 benefices, only 6 had schools, and of these, three were entirely supported by the Clergy.— In the diocese of Cloyne, 58 benefices were returned, and of these only 20 had schools. In an account lately published, it appeared that the value of the benefices in the diocess of Cloyne was 40,0001. a year ; and this was confirmed by the statement of Mr. Bates, in the first volume of his Parochial Survey. In the diocess of Elphin there was a considerable cumber of dio cesan schools: but those were maintained by the London Hiber nian Society. There was one case, however, in which a Pro testant school had been kept up in a manner so disinterested and honourable, that the House would willingly pardon him (Sir J. Newport) if he mentioned one or two particulars. In the parish of Archol, in, the diocess of Ferns, a return had been made highly creditable to the clergyman of the place, Mr. Mahon, who had built one of two school-houses at his aole and entire expence.—( Hear !)—Efter entering into some further de tells connected with the management of such schools, the Right Ilon. Bart. concluded by stating' that he thought the only proper system of education to be pursued there, was one which, by the exclusion of any set formula or catechism, should induce the chil dren of Roman Catholic and of Protestant parents indifferently to participate in the advantages of religious instruction. The Bible might there be put into the hands of children with such a com mentary as he (Sir J. Newport) had lately seen, going solely to elucidate particular passages rquiring explanation, but which were explained without any, view to the establishment of this or that particular dogma or tenet. His object was, to extend to Ire land, in the best and mostuseful way, a system of general edu cation for the people. He should therefore take the liberty of moving two Resolutions, (which were to this effect:—) " 1. That. this House deeply impressed with the serious responsibility imposed onlPurliament' of providing by every proper means for the general instruction of the people, will, at an early period of-the next Session, enter into an inquiry as to the state of education in Ireland ; with a view of extending us blessings to all classes, without religious distinction or prefer ence, and in such manner as to make available for these pur poses the funds that may have been provided either by private benefactions or public bounty, by private donors or by statutory gift ; subject to no other limitation than such as the will of the donors, or the wisdom of Parliament, may have respectively suggested. " 2. That in order to facilitate such Inquiry, returns be forth. with prepared and presented of all the diocesan schools of Ire land (under 53 Geo. 111. c. 101), their foundations, endow. ments, ; also of all disbursements made out of such funds and endowments, during the last 10 years ; and that statements be made out by the Commissioners of Education and Charities in Dublin. of the amount of all property recovered to the funds of such schools, after having been misapplied or otherwise di verted."—( Hear )—lf wished to name any additional reason why the appointment of this Committee of Inquiry, next Session, would be desirable, he would say that the last Report of the CommissionerA in question was very meagre. - 4 • Mr. GOULBURN thought it was a foolish and inexpedient thing in general, and. particularly in the present case, for Par liament to enter into pledges in one Session as to what it would do in another.' He objected also to this species or mode of Par liamentary interference with the management of the parochial establiSliments. As little could he concur in the proposition of educating Roman CAliolic and Protestant children on one and the same system without making them sensible, as suggested by li the Right on. flaronet, of the distinctions between their respec tive creeds. While he was opposed to the motion, he was friendly to inquiry next Session, and assured the Right Hon. Baronet that he was very willing to give all the information on however,these ntters to withdraw that l ) his eeolult Resolutions.con command. He did recommend Air. S. RICE contended, that inquiry, such as was propo. Sell by the Bight Hon. Baronet, was clearly called for ; and ex pressed his satisfaction at the promise of the Right Hon. Gen tleman (Mr. Ooulburn) to give every information on these to.. pies in his power. Sir. J. NEWPORT, in explanation, said he willingly with drew his resolations: his object, which was to ascertain the disposition of the Right lion. Gentleman upon • the subject, being completely obtained. Mr. PEEL having introduced a Bill about Parochial Schools, to which the Right Bon. Baronet had alluded, begged to say, that he hoped their condition would form one of the principal subjects of the inquiry of next Session, in whatever way it might be instituted. After a few words from Mr. C. On ANT, who gave an account of the first establishment and subsequent progress of the Diocesan Schools, the Resolutions were withdrawn. The Labour of Convicts' Bill was then read a third time, anti passed. CAPITAL PUNISH3IE'STS. - On the motion for repealing the Capital Punishment s Rep e al Bill, Sir J. MACKINTOSH rose to propose a n amendment . — He observed that he had taken the earliest opportunity of ex pressing his objection to the amelioration of the criminal laws lasttn et Session,it w . as satisfy y rl tb iam e wi en s t he g s av o e r OtoPosed by,the Government this Session, because he thought the public.. The object of the amendment which he intended to I n ali d irtlit a l t n e or go tt ar p e l n e o d i g ig e h w t h o ic sa h submit was not to effect a more extensive reformation of the criminal laws than was proposed by the bill, but merely to make the bill do what it professed to do in its preamble, namely, to take away the capital punishment in certain cases which were . apecified. The House was aware that many Bills had been introduced to repeal the act of the 10th of Milian', which made shoplifting to the amount of ss. a capital offence Seve ral of those Hills had passed the House of Commons, but they had always been thrown out in the House of Lords, except in the last instance, in 1821, when the House of Peers amend ed the Bill by declaring that shoplifting, unless to the amount of 1.5/. should not be a capital offence.. Since the passing of.the act of 1821, the Judges had held that stealing in a shop attached to a dwelling house to' the amount of .10s. was a capital offence under the statute of the 12th of Anne, com- Monly culled the stealing in a dwelling-house act. This jutil-, cial construction completely defeated the intention of the act of 1821. • The object of his amendment, therefore, was only to carry into effect that act. For that purpose he moved, that after the words " privately stealing gmls or chattels in any shop, Wfitehouse, coach-house, or stable," be added the words, " although such shop, warehouse, coach-house, or stable, be attached to, or detached .from a dwelling-house." The A TTORNEV-GENER.AL felt himself hound to op pose the aMendment. The object of the Bill before the House was merely to carry into effect what had been proposed by his Hon. and Learned Friend himself—namely, to repeal the Act of William, brit to leave that of Anne untouched. He could 5.2. e no reason why privately stealing in a shop, which formed a material parcel of a dwelling-house, should not be considered as great a crime as stealing in any other part of the house. Mr. J. WILLI:N.3IS was of opinion, that the intention of the act of 1021 would be defeated, unless his Honourable and Learned Friend's Lmendment were carried. 1 The SOLICITOR-GAENERAL opposed the amendment. Mr. F. No:Toll and Mr. G. Laatu suppofted the amend ment. Mr. PEEL defended the principle of the Bill, and contend ed, that in it he was pursuing the course adopted by Sir S. Ro 'luny in the measures which he had introduced some few. years back. • After a few words from Mr..- Wilberforce, Mr. Alderman Thompson, and Mr. Martin, in support of the amendment, and from Mr. Courtenay and Mr. Aiderman Bridges in &your of the BM without amendment, the House divided, when there appeared— . For the Amendment - - . 19 Against it :15 Majority - —l6 On our return to the gallery we found the SPEAKER puttin g the question—" That the Bill do pass," which was carried in the affirmative. __ _ On the motion of Mr. PEEL, the felonies (benefit of clergy) Bill was read a third time, and passed. On the motion of Mr. PENL the sentence of death Bill was read a third time.—On the question that it do pass, Sir J. MACKINTOSH said, he had two Amendments to propose to the Bill. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, after some Law observations, concluded by moving an Amendment of the Preamble, by leaving out Certain words to:suit it to the enacting clause; and a clause to gtve the Judges the power to pronounce the punishment of transportation or imprisonment, in cases whare they ao not think it reetotal& that the Funisl:- ment of death should be inflicted. Mr. It. MARTIN complained that his Hon. and Learned Friend had proposed as an amendment the very words of a clause which heMr. R. Martin) had introduced in his Bill, and which th e lion. and Learned Gentleman had then opposed. The ATTORNEY -GENERAL opposed the amendment. After a few words from Mr. F. Iluvrox and Sir JAMES MACINTOSH, the amendments were put, and negatived with out a division. —The Bill'then passed. The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at Two o'CLoctc. A LIST OF THE MINORITY Who voted for Sir Henry Parnell's Motion, "That a Com m ittee be appointed t o inquire into the present state of Ire land, before the Insurrection Act should pass." Barrett, S. M. }fume, J. Rumbolcl, C. E. Bennet, Hon.H. - G. Hotchinson, Hon. Robertson, A. Bernal, Ralph C. H. Smith, J. Bright, Henry Knight, R. - Smith, W. Button, T. F. Kennedy, T. F. Tennyson, C. Cavendish, lA. G. Lushington, Dr. Whitbread, S. C. D.tvies, T. 31arjonbanks, S. Williams, Sir R. Denman, T. Martin, J. Williams, W. Ellis, Hon. 0. J. Milbank, M. Williams, J. Evans, William Monck, J. B. Wood, M. Farrand, Robert Newport, Sir J. Fergusson, SirR.C. Nugent,, Lord Hamilton, Lord A. Palmer - „ C. F. Hoblionse, J. C. Pa res , T. Honeywood, AV. P. Rice, T. S. TELLERS. Grattan, J. Parnell, Sir H. MINORITY Who voted for Sir James Mackintosh's amendment, for taking away the Capital punishment for stealing in Shops attached to Dwelling-houses. .kbercromby,lln.J. Leader, W. Smith, Wm. Bankes, Henry Martin, R. Th om p son , W. Evans, W. Mackintosh, SirJ. Wilberforce, W. Hobhouse, J. C. Monek, J. B. Wilson, T. Knight, R. Newport, Sir J. TDI.LEUS. Lamb, Hon. G. Rice, T. S. Buxton, T. P. Lennard, T. B. Robinson, Sir Geo. Williams, J. PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINUS. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mercurii, 25° die Juni:* 18 0 3 - • CUNLIFFE'S DIVORCE Bills rend a third time, LABOUR OF CONVICTS • 5 and passed. BUILDING OF GAOLS-. - hill read a second. time, and corn. mitted. EQUALIZATION OF " to prevent higher Du ties being paid in Ireland than in England," presented, read a first time, and to be read a second time to-morrow (this dayi. OYSTER FISIIEntEs PN:OTECTION—BiII considered in Com mittee, and reported; further consideration of Report put oti . for three months; Bill, as amended, to be printed. CllURCll—Hutltlersfieltl—Lords Amendments agreed to. MESSAGE FROSt THE Loaps--That they have agreed to Congerston (Leicester) Inclosure Bill, without amendment. • That they do communicate a Copy of the Report from the Select Committee appointed by their Lordships on the Ap pellate Jurisdiction of the House of Lords, as desired by this House. RECIPROCITY or DUTIES—BiII to be read a third time on Tuesday. Bill, as amended, to be printed. NOTICBS OF MOTIONS for THIS DAY. I. Mr. Brougham—To refer Petition from Roman Catholics of Ireland, on abuses in the administration of Justice in Ireland, to'Orand Committee on Courts of Justice. 2. Mr. Grattan:—Motion respecting Pipe Water and Metal ,Main Acco4ints in the City of Dublin. 3. Colonel Palmer—Foreign Policy of this Country. ORDERS of the DAY for THIS DAY. 1. Holyhead and Howth Harbours Bill—Third Reading. 2. Law Merchant Bill—Second Reading.' 3. Capital Crimea Defence Bill—Second Reading. 4. Post Horse Duties Bill--Committee. • - 6. East Itdia Postage on Sailors' and Soldiers' Letters Act— Adjourned Debate. 6. Occasional Freeholders Bill—Further consideration of Re port. 7. Roman Catholic Qualification Bill—Further consideration of Report. 17. Insurrections apo(;:rnree(elldlaanrneßtiadl )01n1Bdolli)ilailBltiiloing_seolm:o:fmur:13tti0tieethre. 8. Settlement of the Poor Bill—Committee. .. 9. Building of Gaols Bill_Committee. 10. Juries (Scotland) ltill—Third Reading. 11. Lotteries Bill—Second Reading. • - 12. Exchequer Bills Bill ( 1 14.700,000)-8econd Reading. 13. Equalization of Duties Bill-,Second Reading. .. . 14. Distilleries Bill—Further consideration of Report. 16. Elective Franchise Bill—Further consideration of Report. 16: Prisons Bill—Lords' amendments to be considered. p n rla r t l i di dll o tl i t . 13. Insolvent Debtors Act Amendment Bill—Committee. June to be considered. • April Presentments Consolidation BlB—Second 2 2 2 0 1 2 9 1.. .. C S ci U u hr n l i nanu la P reeed w i apo l d f — u rijnal l : l urg ) .ye s ts a t . 23. Lottery Commissioners, Salaries and Allowances--Corn: mince thereupoa. 24. Disembodied Militia Bill—Second Beading. • • NOTICES GIVEN YESTERDAY. Tuesday, JO/ I. Pr. Phillimore—To amend the Laws which affect the Mar riages of English Roman Catholics, and the Registration of the Births of their Children. COLONIAL TRADE. S 1.1 I MOT 0 24', MAY, 1823. Sir—Having reason to believe that an immediate removal of the alien duties on tonnage and imports now levied on British vessels entering the ports of this country from his Majesty's pos.- sessions in North America and the West , lndies, is generally ex - pected, in pursuance of a late act of Congress regulating the trade between certain of those Colonies and the United States, I em brace the earliest opportunity permitted by the state of the ear. re spondence on this subject with the American Government, toinform you, and through you to inform his Majesty's Con suls at the out-ports, that the act of Congreas is considered to require not only that the corresponding duties, in the large: t sense as they affect the United States, should actually cease to co-operate on the side of Great Britain, but also that on "orris lawfully imported into anr.of. the open colonial ports in an American vessel, no higher duty should be charged than the like articles imported "from elsr.where.” The term ekerviare being unders'oxi to comrr !bend the Bri tish territories themselves, tt is wholly out of my power to make. , a declaration 'on this point satisfactory to the American vernment • and, however to be regretted, it is therefore maw fest that the prevailing exputation is not likely to be realized under the pruent circurnstances.—l am, &c. (Sigied) - STRATA)ILD CANNING,/ To his Majesty's Consul-General in the United States. MI LANcnowy the morning of Sunday,; the lbth inst., as sortie young men were bathing, in the river Wear, at the Nah's End; near Durham, one of thmi, of the name of Witair., a shoemaker, got out of his depth and was sinkine.7; when one of hit compi . tnions, mined Howe, went in to his assistance,- but being seized round the waist by Wilkie, they both sunk.' Another young man, called Irvine, en their agent rising to the surface, attempted to get them out;but was caughOaold of by both and dragged to the bottom. There they got disentangled, and Howe and Irvine again appeared above water; a fourth young man, of the name of Baker, succeedet. in dragging Irvine out, and then pro. ceeded to Howe, but was so exhausted that he was unable to render him any assistance, and went down with him.— Howe never rose again, and Raker on coming to the surface was, singular to relate, rescued by Irvine, who had in the Mean time partly recovered, and brought to the shore in netrly a lifeless state.—(Ediub::rgh Cogrant,June 23. ) Molt fictitior..—iii the course of last week, certain arrangements were completed between the Town Council and the Subscribers to the New Town Academy. The Council have given up their claim to the three acres of ground i n the the rate, we believe, of twelve bolls of wheat and Distillery Park, which have been feued to the Subscribers, at money per acre. This is a considerable burden, but looking to school were anxious to get the Excise Office and the increasing value of property in that quarter, the sum is not more than the growth is worth. The _promoters of a centr_al lower division of the North Loch, by raising teinis:moutnilins, and a petition was sent to Government for this purpose sonic time ago, but no answer has yet been received. its this appli. cation may fail, we understand the idea of improving the its surface a few feet, and draining and levelling it, to serve as a site, is not abandoned.—(Ediestiegh C ou rant, Julie 23.)