The Sun. — London, England, 1812-06-17 00:00:00

and tless banntry *At iii clebt to Auldlea.' An irri argiaaent in. ahvaar of lAarierican,comf merse, was ti ; that they Must ,be con sumers--their apa•iceiltelral parsaits were the : saMe, they llved amder laws, spoke the. - same language; a negro slave's apparel cost 40 Shillings Kra:a illy. Supposing --on an average a pope . lation .of between itight and nine. millions,' they must naturally consume a considerable' portion of the manufacture& of this country,, to which they is - ere, from early habits,. accustowed. • Beside's, there was.not :to be seen, from Canada -to Alexi from the. Atlantic to the Mississippi, 'such thing as a,pauper'; therefore all the: vast nopula-' tion must of course he consumers of otir goods.— fle "conjured the-'House- to looli at the vast con , iuniption of thirteen millions, and then say !whe ther such customers were not worth preserving ? rhe lion. Gentleman - contended', :that by perse "Vering in the present systema, the Govcrniaent wa& Manning the. tivy of .the enemy, nursing his ton , page, and eventually c ontrib u ti ng t o hi s s t reng th. •tu so doing, they shewed the incurable perverse 'less of human folly. He 'deprecated. the carrying on a species of dishonest craffic with the Conti nent :by means of false licenses, instead of cherish ' oar natural allies - and • kinsmen; the' Ameri cans. He described the improving state of the American manufactories as dangerous to the 'cons merce between the two countries—anti therefore recommended. some attention to be paid to what he said. If_ the War in the Peninsula • Was to, be' carried on,- hoped that it' mightSbc carried on. with •-vigoar.; hat' he was not, 'in leeds an advocate for .a war with America, for in that case we must. send troops 'from - Portugal t? Canada, and.supply -Portugal with stores trams England. It might be said ."'Woald you bow and bend the knee to America ?" To that ques tion he would reply- 4 . No; but. you can afford to be on peaceable terms, and to offer concilia tory measures to the United States, without di minishing your strength s or detracting from your boasted grea t ness ; th e war in that respect had ?ten fruitful, for it has covered you with glory." In thus counselling the House, did he not, he would ask, counsel wisely ? The high character w hich we possessed should be used as a means of • C onciliation, . and. by conciliation this country would .be relieved. Was the Government jealous Of America ? He. hoped not; as ..Soon might he 13:) be jealous of his clients who supplied Lim with briefs, as this Country of the Americans, aced too, at such a. distance; The victories of amillies and. Blenheim led to the Peace of utrecht. The , victories of Talavera . and of Co rwin,; might lead to conciliation with America; and if there were tolse found among the people America any one vaunted boaster, let hint be . regarded. The. Hon. - Gentleman Concluded moving, 44 An Address• to the Prince Regent, in substance- repre senting to his Royal Highness, that the House had been en, ed for souk time past in inquiring into the distressed state 14 the Manufactuters, which was 'stated to have arisen from the effects of the Orders in Council issued in 1607 and 1609 ; -4s suring his Royal Highness, that this House would never Which are necessary for the honour and dignity of the 1: 1 ow n ; beseeching his Royal Highness to recall or suspend 1 410 " Orders, and to adopt such measures may tend to vencilla.t e the neutral powers, without bacr cing Aix just fights Of the Crown." t-b On aa e question being put; • RosE noticed the precipitancy with which the Hon. and Learned 'Gentleman had hurried on the discussion, - and - stated that he came to it un- Prepared,, not having been able to digest the vo luminous evidence,,altlaough he had applied 'him self to it iasessantly. The Right Hon. Gentl&- nian then proceeded to comment on'the speech of the Hon. Gentleman , on the evidence,' and- to give such an answer to Le ease as it appeared: to him to I "clnise. 'He observed at the outset, that the Hon.. C eat. had stated theYatious distresses of thelabour trig poor. To that statement he subscribed—he had never' denied it, and, though-he had bee* charged With. treating those distressesloosely; yet those Altho knew kiln best,' knew that it was repugnant, to his feelings 'so to do. He had never heard of Or seen the distresses of any individual, but he felt for his situation. It Was therefore' an'act" of in justice to his character to impute to him un ,_wortliy actions. The Honourable Gentleman pad stated, that those distresses- Were brought °II by the state of comMereiahobjects--that asser tinu he (Mr. IL) had always.denied to be founded , ' 4 fact. The OHers iu Council Were intended as inessas s ~f - ' resaliaton against the common eae blY. wile.; had declared, that this country should no t be aermitted to, send a ship to 'the ports of the Contiaent.' The effect Of them was not such as descr=ib e d. The Hon. Gentleman had asserted, that ;nose who- contended in favour Of the Orders 1 11 Council, had not produced any witnesses to a a s Ort their necessity, or to shew they were not Frelacifeial to the commerce of the country. A f?evalent notion, he knew, had gone. abroad upon t h at subject, and it was natural tO•suppose that if 1 4 e labouring manufacturers' were totally those , 1 whom they placed confidence, that the fact 1 fl , 4 s $ O , they would in a mass; . .and demand t l'e repeal ; - the - opinian had 'taken,sneli deep root h at it was impossible tO' convince them to the ° lltsary. Under these circumstances, was it sin-' that no material evidence had been pro aced In truth, it was dangerous for the ma t4'nfaeturers themselves to come forward and tes ,cY to the cOntrary... With this feeling, many merchant s ,• who otherwise would have appeared f t the bar, were disinclined to come forward, for th ey of disobliging-the manufacturers with whom th eir were connected, nor did they like to offend correspondents in America. As to some of the distresses particularised by the Hon. Gentle an, there was no evidence of the existence Of '' s tress in the West Riding. The conversation t Iv t sPectin g the Inspector General of the Customs b as Unworthy that gentlernan, and the fact was t et t as stated ; it was utterly untrue. No person I,oaldbelieve that the Board of Customs, or the " la a ° ard of Trade would authorise a fallacious - state -I.,4'ent to laid before the House, merely for the t ir Pose of swelling the amount of the Exports and merchant a•ts. How stood the fact ? Why thus--a d o e rehant made an entry, or at-least his clerk had „;-le it for him, 9f- a quantity of goods, less in, are tha n th ey actua lly were . This error would t v : i e subjected , him to the total loss of the goods, Ila) " . ..therefore he was desired to amend his entry, of vis ellshe acoordinaly did. t an ports the return • .:fe amount of the exports and imports formed . , us fait a Critef iOti of ;the Yalite OfthC conitherce aS any thilir could dot tionOn:•, )le. Gentleman was, correct as to-the exports to America; when . .he- stated them .at aiiout tweive miiiiuns they were on an average annually bCtween.teu and twelve millions ; the only question was, %0. - let - her the. trade would he porehased, too dearly by• the' suspension of the Orders in Council ? ha:i talked - too of thedisresoeetfUl manner i-t which he (Mr. R.) had, treated' the evidence at the bar ; he. , strong now would shew idence to the con trary, and•lie would also shew,that as to the SOuth American . experiment, as it was called, that failed principally inconsequence of some of the articles sent to that part of the world not being such -as were • in use. One gentleman hail sent out stock-' )ings, which they did not-want—another had ex ported a quantity of coffin furniture, when in fact the inhabitants had not an idea of burying their deqd in f i urniture--,-another sent Sedan chairs, which. they did not wants But the-filet was, the increas'ug trade to that part was profitable. The 'Honourable Gentleman was a little wrong in his calculation of the exports of iron fri-n. Birming ham. The witnesses had stated, that the whole amount. of the exports of that article from all parts of toe country was not' More than seven . hundred and twenty thousand pounds, so that in fact, when he stated onemillion two hundred thousand pounds as the share of Birmingham, he overstepped the mark,. and either the witnesses must be right, or the Custom House wrong. If the witnesses were right, then it followed of course that the exports were more than 'the returns made-by the Custom 'Howie. With respect to the maritime rights of the Country, the Honourable Gentleman had been liberal in admitting those rights, but that admis sion was tendered merely for the purpose of in ducing•the House to give up the Orders in Coun cil. But these Orders were not further persever ed in for the sake of maintaining those rights as against America, but against France. As to the commerce with America, the truth was - as the Honourable Gentleman stated,' that they had ina nufaetures of their own, and this country was de ceived if much was expected. The Hon. Gentle man had talked of victories at Talavera and Co runna, but - What had those victories to do with the trade to America ? If the repeal of the Orders in Council was agreed to, then, indeed, the vic tory spoken of would remain- with France. The Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to detail the evidence as it bore in favour of the system. — A great deal of it was not printed, and for that reason he had been anxious for delaying the con sideration. The petitioners were prepared; they had arranged their case methodically,which facili tated it. They had printed.and circulated new evidence. But he. had not been able to read the immense . volume so as to dig. st its contents. Un der the firs head of commercial arrangements stood.irou ; and-in respect. - co the state of the men employed in that mouufacture, he had no doubt, there were numbers out of employ, and if .the measure was repealed, they would experience im mediate relief. He assured the House, that if re sistance was held out to the repeal, that resist-, ance proceeded from the strong sense whieh. he entertained. He could have no other view, for lie should not have much longer the management of the Board of Trade. He was firmly persuad e d, that, if the trade. was, opened, its continuance, could not be insured. The;. next. bead was that of nails j ; and here there was a contrariety of evi dence :, for one witness stated, that the ware houses of Liverpool were full--when another (Mr. they Hornley) declaredwere .not full. A Mr. Fox stated, the trade to America, exceeded the whoie of the trade to other parts,: that statement he (Mr. R.) much doubted—for the iron exported to America was about one-sixth, or 700,000/. where as in fact the whole of the exports in that article amounted to twornillions—He contended that the exports from the Continent rivalled our manufac tures, and weresold at a cheaper. rate! This. infotmation , ht.k drew froinvariouB parts of theevi denee. He defended . the -conduct of the w i tness alluded to by the:Honourable Gentleman, as hay ing spiiken direspectfulfy of the lab.ouring Manu facturers. All that the wit aess meant - was, that thedistreSs was not so great as was apprehended. —With respect to the pottery, the nuniber of crates exported within the- last year; a . moun-',edto twenty- , three thousand more than: in the four preL . Ceding years, and the. decrease which existed pre vionsly to that pericid, arose froth the non-impor tation to Ireland, in conSequenee of the miscon struction Of an Act of Parliament; by which a duty. was claimed upon the article. If th'd 'Orders, in , Council were repealed; and the Berlin and Milan Decrees left to stand, America would hale . the ad vantage of the. carrying - trade to the North of En rope, and_Frauce would-be enabled to export - her iron work, her linen, silks, cloth, &c. and to bring back in return the raw materials, a circumstance which. would conduce strongly to assist her in rivalling our manufactures. We should in fact by such.a step - assist to- the utmost of our power in giving complete effect to the measures and the policy ofFrance.. But the efficacy of the Orders Council was to be seen, notwithstanding all re presentations to the contrary, ill their practical effects upon the commerce of the enemy. It Was a fact which could not be denied, that the ex ploits from 'France to America had decreased nine millions from the. year 1804 to 1811. in the Canada trade, .it . appeared upon the evidence of Sir Alexander M'Keuzie, that the tonnage of ships in 1604 amounted to 33,000, and in 1811, to 116,000. He then went into b. minute re capitulation and comparison of the evidence, from which he inferred, that the Mediterranean trade was ,greatly improved, that the South Amerfcan trade was also improving, and that the injury sup posed to have been experienced in this latter branch, arose merely, and applied exclusively to speculative adventurers, who were obliged to sell off immediately, at a loss. As to the shipping in-, terests, which formed so great an object in the consideration of this .question, he was convinced that if the Orders in Council were to -be repealed to-morrow, they would not have one ship more afloat than they had at present, but on.the contrary; for the,inimediate tendency and operation of the repeal would be, to throw one-third or one-fourth of our carrying trade into the hands of -Ame- rica. The result, therefore, of all the facts which he had been able to collect, was, that with the excel ►tion of that burst of trade td South Auieri- ea Which took place 1809, and 1810,-the ship ping al:crest; were \ never..sO prosperous as now.-- Four-fifths of the trade of Criaae;otv were in favour lA.' the Orders in Council. It had been stated . by one of the witnesses, that the shipping„of Liver pool, a paat supposed to suffer pecaliarly under the existing system, was ., fully employed ; and noon .a fair view of- the matter, that the number had been doubled in the course of the last twelve years. :The evidence , bore him.out in stating, teat the trade to the South Of Europe had increased in a. proportions to compensate for What had been lost. in the North ,since the •adop tion of those measures, so that on a fair balance the general commerce of the country .had suf fered nothing. . He had already :stated, a that four-fifths of the Aferchants of Glasgow were in • favour of - .lle.Ordera - To this he Woultt add, taat a great part. of the trading, in terests of. Liverpool supported the same, that. Bristol was unanimous in her - approbation'of the policy by which they.were • dictated, and that a large portion of the merchants of London main tained' the same. opinion. Mr. Glennie, of the house of Glennie and Co. aid another, were the only. witnesses from • that quarter who gave evi dence against the. Ordersin Council ; and irwas to be observed, that that House had some. Ame rican Agencies which might have imperceptibly influenced' their judgment:. In addition to the bodies he had alreadyenumerated, he should not neglect to'state that the whole body. Of the Ship ping interest Were against the rePeal: 'Upon the the subject of the mistakes in the ;ranting of Li censes imputectito the Board of Trade, be should content himself with barely stating that 'one :ef ror had occurred in the space of five • yeans, and that the Board had manifested .everydispoaition and .anxiety to correct it. Upon the • whole,.. he could assert, that if he felt that the repeal 'of the Orders . in Council would he a benefit to the country, there was na man living who 'would be more willing to support it.- Blit•being.inipessed with the opposite conviction, he felt it hiS duty to resist the attempt.:.. Mr. A. BARI*I disclaimed the idea of imputing any blame to the Right lion. Gentleman for the er rors commited.in the granting of licenses. He.did not intend to go through every part of the evidence as the Right Honourable Gentleman had, dine; for if the importance of the subject bad not , al ready called the.attentro n o f th e Mouse to such an investigation; he despaired of impressing it in the shape. of aa speech.- His endeavour Sho"uld be, to point out here and there such points' of the evi dence as were 'connected with the .gefieral princi= pies embraced in the discussion: The Orders in Council had now existed for several years; and there 'was at present throughout the manufactura ing districts, unexampled distress. They would have first to consider; :whether this distress was attributable to the. Orders in Council; and next, whether, if they were *so attributable, , there ex isted any benefits of ;pother kind to compensate for the pressure ? The Right Honourable Gen tleman had shifted his grounds on different. occa sions, At one time it was a measure of retaliation; at another of commercial objects; and . at another of great political. views ; yet,' after having dwelt upon the importance of these political viewa, 'he bad entered into npthickg but a statement of com mercial ones, and traced their effect upon the sale of iron, wool, and cotton. If' the Orders in Council could be proved to be commercially inju rious, he did not see how in any p ro pe r sense it could be considered, retaliatcry measure.. As to the manufacturers, he would show how they were alfaeted by the Orders in Council ; for though the prevalence, of distress was undeniable, if that tress could - not be connected with the measure in question, they'would.shew 'nothing applicable to the , present case. .I`ile..Onject which the Gentle mea.on the other side seemed to aim at in the in vestigation was that of puzzling the manufaetneers examined at the bar as to the nature of the 9iders in -Council; but looking-to the' real 6:teeth:kin 1:9 7 fore the Ilo;:ise,- he would oh ve, in the first .in stance, that the evil arose the want of Ame rican intercourse, and thatthe want of American, intercourse arose from the Ordta's in Conneil.—• The Right Honourable. Gentleman had deSeribed the witnesses as ignorant'manufacturerS„ . who had been .persuaded by others to believe that all the evils arose from the Orders in Council-; bait he ,would begaleave to remind theM that the witnesses • consisted of all the master namnfacttirers in the kingdom, with- the exception Of - the - West of England : they amounted to eighty: in' all; some ofthem, employed three thou Sand. men, and few' under two thousand; and they 'had' Manifested - a particular 'degree of intelligence- and acuteness, not only with . regardto their Own-business, but to the general manufacturing interests of the cowl try. They had all stated the distreas of the pre-, sent moment to be unexampled, and the men in their einploynient to be all do reduced Wages, or reduced wotk, which eanie to the - same thing ;, and all - h4l concurred in yepreSenting the demand from America not only to have ceased, belt to have hurt the home trade, by bringing into it those who were before employed in the foreign trade. — They bad represented their whole Capital to exist in stock, and :declared that they must turn off a great number of hands : some a third, and some a fourth of' those they employed,' unless the repeal was decided on., The decision of the 'Tlouse' thai night would effect the discharge or continuance of Many thousand Manufacturers in their respective lines. He did not say that this consideration should stand in the way of any great national ob ject ; but a clear case should be made out before the step could be resolved upon.' If his Majesty's Government intended ... to persevere in the same system, he was sure that they would not discharge their duty, inhless they adopted some strong ad ditional cautions in the interior of the country.— It had been denied that the tumults, which they must all regret, had any connection with the Or . - ders in Council; but the evidence proved the con trary. in general where there was most distress, their; was most disturbance, and,the distress was owing to the want of an American market ; he would allow, that the West of England was not distressed, and it appeared, upon the testimony of Mr. Wood, that there was no seal-City experi enced in that quarter, the consequence of which was, that there was no disturbance. In the Me- tropolis there was no disposition to riot, for though there was sor 'venience felt, the me incot ge- tti ^ ~' neramass of the population was' not mane 1 . -:co ing. Tit ;ircueu;i.:nce of keening up alien . force in the interior should of itself, setting esi e the commereiel importance of the (ow than; indur'e Government to consider maturely. Xd had cen curred in the opinion that if the American trade was again revived,, emplo'yment woUld again ;e -turn. theo took a view of the different branches of trade which were represented as like= ly e to be injurod by the repeal, and - ridichiled the idea of this, country being 1 - Craid. of France as a rival inAie r trade. Another important consiclera;, tion was the rising manufactures of „America', fos-, tered by,the suspension of her commercial • course with 4 thia - coeutry. It li"ad been declared by a respectable, Witness at the bar, that, in his opinion, if the Nen-importation Act continued for three years, the trade in cotton goods would never • he renewed. As to the - pretensions of Atnerica, he believed that they did not go further than the repeal of the• Orders in CoUncil. Let that 4 (be tried: - If Anierica should advaine any unreasonable proposition, he would Ine , tile last man to, concili a t e her - by the sacri ot na tional.. right 'or national houottr. 'referred, hoWever, to the correspondenet between Mr. Mtinro and Mr. Foster, to show tlen the Ameri-'- can Government had dec - red thatif the Orders. in Council were repealed, the ExeCutive , ievernment of the United States' had,' no option left" them' by the. ilicg,Hature,, but that the Non-iniportetion Act must•cease of cOurse. _He expressed his re , greet that thealloblleLord had refnsed the correspoadence to 'Which . albided tObe . laid Onahe table. Advertitig tothe great e4ence : to thwerinnent; occasioned lay'tlit: Orders in Coin . ,cif; be epre:esed his :dotilatS whether the Cowmen se..riat-Geaeral in Portngal cinihl -supply the -Bri . tish ateny with corn, naless the -Orders in Cooneil were repealed. •in the present: state of - exchaanee, in Consequence of our not being able to return . af?y thing to America hut specie. for the Corn with which She suppiidti our armies 'on coreiga service, two millions a' year were lost to GoVernm ent. in addition to this was the expellee attendant upon the military 'operationa in the British colonies of North America, although if America were serious ly provoked to war, rio .free that we could send, wouid for three months be .ahle to protect, - those' colonies ; and itt the event of their fall, what would beeome of the North American trade ? In I whatever point of view, therefore, he canSidered the tiubject, as - it appeared to hith, - Greatritairt Was pursuing a - niest unwise policy .—She Was saL crificina- b the . substantial conimercial advantages - of. a trade with America, for an object ' which :she couldnevet obtain—that of forcing her trade with the Continent. ' - Lord t3,OTLEREAGH on such an important sub ject felt anxious to offer to the House the reasons which appeared to - him conclusive against the Address. He lamented the precipitation of the - Honourable 'and Learned Gentleman in bringing forward this motion—a precipitation injurious to his own cause. He deprecated any interference on • the part of the I-louse hi a question of great na tional importance, involving iniquestionably com mercial considerations of the most serious nature, but mixed with Considerations of maritime right. It was certainly not out of the absolute' provtoce ofParliament to interfere ; on such- an occasion ; but it had always been that from which they had been abhorrent, pending a negociation on a deli-* cite subject, -to dictate to the Executive Govern- . meat the course which it ought to pureine. He admitted that the Honourable and Learned Gen tleman had made out a grave case of national dis tress, as affecting the manufacturers of the coun try. He further admitted that there was reason able rruund to believe that if the American market lot opened Within a limited period, the pros sine would be increased. But stAl he hoped that Parliament would not allew their imaginations to wander. so widely with the Honourable and Learn, e:! Gentleman, as to conceive. that the general; Contitierce and n.anufactures of the emnire were in a state o decay and perishment. He oy no Ineans wished to understate the pressure on those of our - manufacturers who had been accustomed to ex port to America. He felt acutely for their'dis-, tressea, and he declared that he had nev e r . m et with More fair and liberal men than the sent by those manufacturers to represent 'their case to Patliament. lle conceded 'to the Hon oun!b. le and Leaene Gentlemial, that if Great: .Britain revoked her Orders in 'Council, America might be disposed to abi - intte her Non-importa-: tion Act ; but he contended, that on retrospect of the past, le was by no means preparedto,say, that it •...oetild have been - wise to have kept.posses- e si_on of the American market, by abstaining from, those measures ; an abstinence which would hays exposed the commerce;:of this country to all the evils with which it hacikeen threatened by France. In justice, however, Great Bfitoin ought to have' retained possession of the American market. Not- , withstanding the system- which : she had . adopted towards France—a system :which, he admitt e d, was not'justifiable on principles 'of commercial policy; but which Was in.it completely justifiable on, the principle' in which itoriginated ; namely, the nrin. eiple, of coercing Fiance, aid driving her front the system of misiule which she had so exten sively exercised. As directed against France, this slestent - had obtained its object. Never was country more commercially depressed than France. By the official documents of the French Government, it appeared that the whole, extent of the manufactures and produce of that country, consumed internally, as well as exported, did not equal the simple exports of, other nations. In the year before last, they did not exceed '54,000,0001. sterling, while ours amotinted to 66,000,0301, Even with t}e loss of the American market (e - hich .lie contended we ought not to • hare lost), let the House compare the situation in which the British Empire was, with that which it might have been, but for the Orders in Council. This country (with the exception of last year \ the deficiency 'of ,which was occa sioned by temporary causes) exhibited to the world a spectacle of 'a nation successfully strug gling amidst the efforts of war, and rising in wealth and commercial prosperity. Indeed a, great part of •the deficiency of the last year was occasioned by the preceding extraordinary and even unnatural prosperity. With that excep• tion, the commerce of the country, all hut that which related to America, had increased in