The Sun. — London, England, 1812-03-14 00:00:00

tile country . was liable to the infliction of this Punishment. The father of any family might be taken fiom his home by force, and put into a situa tion in which lie would be subject to a military lloggirg. Some years ago, a tery great, and certain /y- a very laudable sympathy had been excited in this country by the safferings of the African negroes. But really he did not believe that any black slave -- teas'ever treated so ill as an,English soldier was liable to be treated. By the law of Jamaica, the number of lashes to be inflided on an offending slave was limit ; et!, arid they were not - to be inflicted by the per son offended, but by,a• public officer. He trusted that -the humanity of Parliament was not exhausted in - getting rid of the African traffic; but that they ,vould abolish an abomination exceeding even that . ein horror. He c e rtainly w as no t s u r p r i se d that there were persons ready to defend this - system 'which he reprobated ; because there were always to be found persons ready to defend any thing, He - eould not forget - the arguments which had been urged aglinst the abolition of the Shiva Trade i; Self. lie could not forget that the Slave Trade had been - 'defended on the score of humanity. He had even beard a defence of the liaqutsition; To him it ap peared as inadmissible to iniliit torture for military purposes, as for the pretended salvation of souls.- - It was most imtroli is and most cruel. He should • have hoped that on this subjed no two persons could -disagree. It had nothing to do with ptrtr. The oaposition 16 the system was founded on humanity; and in that point of view, nee :eel 'not the aid of argument ; -it was also founded on policy, and, in that point of viev, could ba supported by irrefu table reasoning. If the country would but d:. jus tice to t- Army—if a reward was , held out for goof conduat—it those who had served 30 or 40 yeats, instead "of ,being sent abroad to hard gar rison duty, were allowed to pass the rest of their lives at home' and •at ease, there would be little necessity for - resorting, to severe, pu nishments. Far different was the present fate of the veteran. When he had exit ,us'ed the strength of his, youth in the service of his country, that ungrateful countr), insteae of affording the means of comfort in his age, availed itself of his last and feeble efforts, and sent flini to a distant and • baleful clime, there to descend into an unwept grave. Had the plan originated some years ago by a late Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Windham) been persevered in, the good 'effects would by this time have been strikingly manifest. It , s as a planwhich no cousiderathee of economy ought to have Mi s er- Towed. That Right Hon. Gentleman had, for the first time -Owe/ever inoci feet ly) impressed this groat principle on the military • service of the country, namely, that the only - rational foundation on which the good conduct of the soldier coutd he expelled, * ;'as to better his condition most know very i_ as '•ttle indeed, of the charatter of mankind, and of attlglisitm e n in particular, who did not know tha at . "3 much easier to lead than to drive. To none Vas this remark more applicable, than to those en gaged in the military professido. it was to satisfy his sehse of duty upon the aubjed e that after the third ie . :ailing of the Bill, it was kris intention topto- Pose a clause, the effaat of which would be to Put an tad t o the present system of military flogging. Mr MANNERS SUTTON declared it to be his opi- Won that however conscientious the motives of the Honourable Baronet,' there was no degradation from Which the British army would recoil with more dis gust and impatience, than from the description which the Honourable Baronet had been pleased to give of their situation. What ? was .it true that a British soldier was snbjed only to punishment ? Was be entitled to no reward ? Was he in a worse state than an African slave ? He would venture to say, that there were no assertions so untrue, so calculat ed to-incense the feelings of the British army, and indeed to reduce them to real degradation, as many of the statements of the Hon. Barr. The Honour-' able Bart. had hazarded opinions not founded on an itscauiry s If he had investigated the fad, be would lave found that io teeny Regiments soldiers who Lad suffered proper corporal correction, so far from - Laving become worthless, bad afterward concluded, themselves in such an exemplary mannar as to be come non-commissioned officers, and in that new situation to fulfil all their duties iraeprOaChably.— This was fact, and the Honourable Baronet was nut Justified in coming down to the House, and wain: formed as he was, broadly slating, the punishment Was invariably 'followed by the self-abandonment . of the soldier on - whom it had been inflided. The lion. Baronet had charged him with an Mien- Lion, on a former night, of deluding, the House by a fallacious statement with respect to the number of corporal punishments that had recently-been inflict ed. If the Hon. Baronet had condescended t 6 be present on that occasion, he would have heard - how the subject was introduced, and in that case he Would, perhaps, not have deferred his present pro position to a_ trite when it could not, with consis tency, be possibly received-; for certainly nothing could be more ridiculous than to suppose, that after the House had read, for the third tithe, a Bill which recited corporal punishment as intimately connected with its provisions, they would agree to tack to-it a clause by which corporal punishment should be wholly abolished. He would inforM the Honour - able Baronet, that what he had stated on the even ing alluded to, was that lie felt the - impossibility of • abolishing the punishment altogether ; although he telt in common with those, witose immediate duty '• it was to enforce the law, the utmost wish to render that punishment as little frequent as necessity would allow. He had also observed, that the statements made rela t is e to p vinis hmen ts inflided had been grossly exaggerated, and that in the infliction of punish meet tor offences, it would be couch better, in his opinion, to leave the discretion 'in the Courts Mar tial. With respell to what the Honourable Baronet Lad said as to the infliction of corporal pun'shment not being known in foreign armies, and that the high state of discipline and valbur evinced by those armies, evidently sheaved the pradical good resulting from . it,- he tnuat aitsWer, that to take it out of the Mi heir) Code of Great Britain, would not be attended with beneficial effects. By so doing a summary,- and in some respects, an arbitrary mode would be vested iii Officers, little compatible with the genu ine spirit of the British Constitution. What was the present form of proceeding in Courts Martial ? the offence must be proved on oath, and then if g ays i, a sentence was ronounced but did not al )=9 ay lt s ) happen that it was carried into exc it cut ion. The . . to suppose tt . at the charge *as not - clothed with greater security under the present code, was an attempt to' mislead its judgment. It was owing Co that high-minded and liberal feeling which guided the conduel of Officers, that the cOndition of the men was so good. The Hon. Baronet talked of the impolicy of subje&ing the men to the caprice of their Officers. Such an insinuation was dange rous, for it - would have the effea, by insinuating that the British Officer was capricious, of taking away that affectionate attachment which generally was found among all ranks of the Army to the Com manding Officers. The alguments which be ad vanced to shew the danger, by stating that the men were bad in cOnsequence, was .not ; for if the Hon. Baronet had been present •on the formor' evening, he would most undoubtedly have been sa tisfied that such an imputation was dire6tly incon sistent with the genel - al feelings of the House. He would have learnt from the discussion of that even ing, that by the introduction of the men from the hulks, so far from their furnishing bad materials for . the army - , they on the contrary had turned out some of the best. Indeed the whole . of his, arguments seemed to have no other tendency but to the con vi iou that it was impossible the House should adopt his clause. Where, iorinstance, could he have dis covered -the opinion of Judge • Blackstone, namely, that corporal pianishment incapacitated a man from sitting on a Jury. Certainly' not in his writings for he (Mr. S.) had no' recolleat:on of :suet' an opinion, .nor did he believe the tai was as stated. However the Hon. Baronet had used 'it as .one of the most weighty of his arguments in support of his pro position. If the douse would estimate the weight of the other arguments by this one they would ,see that the proposition was perfectly _ inadmissible.-1t was inconsistent Avid) the discipline of the army to aboli.sh the Criminal Code: The safety ottife coun try demanded that when it was necessary corporal punishment should be inflicted. He did not mean to deny lhat sonic mode of punishment might cot be desirable,, less offensive, ',it that was no argu ment for taking away the present Code, and there fore he should dissent from themotion. Mr. AERRCROMBIE was disposed to think that great advantage had arisen 'from the many discns sions which had alre ply •aken place on the subjea. At ihe same time it was a subjeet, of all others, on which, in'tee discussion, great caution ought to be used. On the one band, gi eat inconvenience might arise, while, on the other; much prattical good might result from the discuietion e With respect to the question, he was happy to concur, in the course which had been adopted by his Majesty's Gtherte meni, not at all questioning the purity of the motives woich had indece•l the Hon. Baronet to bring this subject under theconsideration rte the House; wishing however, that it might nut ageht be brought before Parliament. He differed from the Hon. Bart. in the mode most likely to atfeet toe object which he had in. view, because if the country bad approached to. a state of iriings in which it was prudent to abolish the evil complained of, it Might be done, and he should cheerfullyavote for the trotien. •But the case was not so. It the condition of soldiers Was considered, it Was indispensably necessary to re sort to. a 'different• mode el punishment than was adopted in orchiary society; Hesaw no good that could attach either to the et.vii- or military Govern talent by the introdualion of a toe aad spirit in the Army such as was attempted to be introduced ; it was holding out both to the army and the country, that the present code was not desirable, and there fore ought so be dispensed w ith. He conceived that the discretion could not be in better hands than in those of a British Officer, qs mercy was the brightest ornament he could possibly wear. He therefore should objea to the motion. Sir G. WARRENDER agreed with the Hon. teen tleman who spoke last, as to The delicacy of the sub jeet, and differed with the Honourable Baronet in all the statements which he laid made. Some of the statements he wished to set right, particularly with respect to promotions. After the battle of Albuera, my Lord Wellington (wheel the Honourable Baro iret was not disposed to think the most accomplished General) direCied the Officers of the several regi meuts under his command to send a Ist of those serjeauts who bad distinguished themselves, in order that they might be promoted to the rank of Officers. That was an answer to. the Honourable Baronet's' . asset tion, that the private men were never ad vanced. He could also speak to a fatt similar within his own knowledge, having the honour to command a British Regiment, it had fallen to his lot to recommend three serjeants Iron) his Reginrene for promotion in the line. The Honourable Bart: expressed his. regret the. Hoe, Mover should have relied on the publications of certain Officers„ and he also regretted that those Officers high in rank should have made public 'their opinions on the subject ; it would have conduced mere-to the benefit of t h e service if they had stated those opinions to the Go vernment, or to the Commander in-Chief, for he well knew that Illustrious Person had tell desire to abolish corporal puttishment. As to the returns, the Commandar.in-Chief required these returns to be made half-yearly, under the bead of nature of crimes and sentences. The Right I-lon. and I„ear - ned Gent. had completely answered moat of tie Hon. Mover's arguments. He had never under,timil :I here wasany difference in the instruments by which punish ments were inflicted. The distinction between pu nishments in foreign service and the British service was this, a British Officer dare not hft his hand to strike a soldier, on the contrary, in the French ser vice the men were cruelly beat by their Officers.— The condition of the British soldier was this, that he felt himself not degraded but much elevated above the soldiers of every other nation in Europe in every point of view. In illustration of this assertion, he might refer to the character of the teth Dragoons,. in which regiment, discipline was strictly enforced; -and that 'regiment had distinguished listlf during the war on Various occasions, in the most ext tuplay manner. Mr. C. ADAMS observed, that cori.oral punish ment had been inflicted in the reign of Queen Eliza beth, and in the war of Marlborough, and yet the army, as might be seen in the history of Sully, in the former reign, was distinguished for valdur and discipline before Rouen. It Lid been siid on a former night„ by an Hon. and Leart*d.Gentleman (Mr. Brougham) that it was owing to the opinions of Cobbett and another person, corporal puni3h went was abated. He (Mr. A). believed, that i 1 i opinions which, since he left the army, bad" beenrof so. Much disservice to him. The Hon.. Baronet; in the course of his arguments, had not noticed nor' proposed any remedy for corporal punishment in the Navy. What - had the Navy done that. they were not to be included in the Hon. Baronet's pro posttion ? He talked of abolishing corporal pu• nishment in the Army. but did not propose any sub stitute. General LOFTUS, after the speeches of the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and of the H6p. Baronet (Sir George:Warrender), should not have" been inclined- to trouble the House, as those Ho nourable Metubas - had given so full and satisfac tory an answer to all that the Honourable Baronet had advanced ; but he could not avoid expressing his concern thatVestlons of thiS nature should be brought for Ward. He could_not see any good that could arise to. the service from such agitation. ;On the contrary, he saw the possibilityof infinite Mis chief. He had Always been averse to severe cor poral pnniShments, and had always opposed them when be wes able.to do so without affeding the dis cipliee - of the army... But there were situationa in which Officers commanding corps throughout the army, were sometimes placed, in which it became absolutely necessary, by some sttiking example, to punish for The sake of example. He *OW venture to say, that there was not one man in ten thousand so punished; who was not thought by his corurade,s to be deserving of it. Every man who heard him, who knew any thing of the service, must be con vinced that all Courts .Mattialwere favourable to the _prisoner; every thing which told in his favour being attended to. The. Honourable Baronet, no doubt, was historian enough to know that the freest States were those States the most stria in military disci pline.- An army witho.4t discipline was the greatest enemy Which a State could have to' cont e nd w i t h. He could not think that the object which the Ho nourable Baronet had in view was to lessen the se curity of the country, by relaxing the state of the discipline of the army, but such would be the effed; and under that impression he must oppose the motion. 'ln respeet to there bring no rewards for meritorious soldiers, the Honourable Baronet (Sir G. Warrender) had given three instances of promotions of non-commissioned officers from his own regiment, to commissions in the line. He (General Loftus) could state, that in his own regi ment he had Officers who had risen from the ranks to commissions, for their good behaviour ; besides, was there not provis:o6Madeby the means of Chel sea ? He had supported 'the liberal plan of Mr. 'Windham ; and the more he thought of it the more he was satisfied that it benefited, the: soldier. He corporal.punishment could be abolished, but experience, had. shewn that it was impossible to do so without lessening that . diciphne which had brought our army to that degree of vigour of which it now boasted. Mr. BENNETT supported the motion, obk?Eting to Regimental Courts Martial, and to corporal punish ment generally, which was inflicted for trifling of fences---such as the soldker being too late at drill— too late on Oracle; and being asleep on his post.— He had the honour of belonging to the tst Regi ment of Foot Guards fortnerly, when the late - Doke of Gloucester catnnianderl that regiment ; that iliva trtooa person never intetfered but to do some - good to the tegiwent. Such was the case with his Royal Highness the Duke of York. - Lord PALABASVoNE would not have troubled the House, after the complete answer which the Hoe nourable Baronea's motion had received, and seeing that the Hotise entertained but one opinion on the question,. with the exception of the Hoeuurable Baronet himself ; and that opinion was, that it Bas necessary to comieue the present Militaty Code:— The comparison of the Honourable Baronet in ranking the British Army with the degraded state of Negroes, was too invidieuir. The Bri tish stdier, he was convinced, wanted no other protection but the honour and discretion of his of ficer—ins interest could not be placed in better, handS, guarded as it was by the rules and regula tions or the service. The whole of the Hon. Ba. toners speech, however, Was a series of contra diaions in argument ; alter contending that they . were .a deeiraned race of men, in the next breath he was compelled to admit, that in point of mili tary glory, they could not be tin distinguished. If British soldiers found themselves degraded, they could not as stsch perform ilibSe exploits of valour which had so eminently distinguished -- them. The Hon. Baronet had consequently refined "lila -own . argument . ; that feeling which was common in the soldier, was produced and icernented by seeing and acting with his officer, by tr. recollettion that he was secure under' his protection, more semi: than any regulation which the zeal or ingenuity of the' Hon. Baronet could devise. Trial by .cOurts:mariial*. was governed by the • stria principle of justice, and therefore could - not be said to overthrow the ener gies of the men; With respect to - cot poral punish • mint, it was not coeval with ,the present - vies:a, as had been a•Setted, but had' existed in all tunes when the • military service was called into action. The House, upon 'the :mete' of the Hon. Baronet, would not; he tru -,- ited, abolish the praCtice, unhlss some satisfodoryprepbsitibe ..k.as brought for.werdiend the Hon. Bart. had declared, that so far from making any such propoSition, "'he would not trust himself to.rea•orrupon a substitute." With respea to promo tions, an Hon. Baronet, and, a gallant 'General, had 'commissions. state instances 01 - privates being - elevated to He should state another fat:A. • After the battle of Bil,aco, the Cornm'inder in Chief Sent to Lot d Wellington, ten Ensigns' - comrtrissions, as rewards lot' so many eon-commiSsioned officers who had greatly distinguished themselves. Would any man, atter the instances they had heard related, say that the British army received punishment and not reward The Hon. Baronet had talked of the men - dragging taut a miserable existence in the Veteran Battalions, atter 30 or 40 years service. He was mistaken in a,seriiitg that t.ot ; the men were cer putly placed - in barqion, from incapacity, either toy wounds, or other' ,, infirmities, and they were not called u i :on to do foreign service. The prest,ure of the war had, however, been so great, as to call lotth the serince of two of those battalions abroad, where they were stationed ; but, in point of fatigue, garrison duty %%as not so great. As to Cheliea Hospital, the men were well satisfied with that, as a reward for baying ably served their coun try ; they wet e grateful :or it, and considered it arl,,vll.ltb, • . ' ._ tT • .1 soldier's being founiasleep on hip post. Was the Hon,Gentlemen aware, tlra(by Martial Law, th , 3 offence was one of the greatest in the catalogue, and was punishable with death ? Did. not the security of the aint), depend on the . vatchfulness of the centi nels ?—At home, to be sure, where so much care might not be requisite, discretion in appo!ti.,,,ihg the punishment might be tolerated. ,Conceiving that the military code. was necessary for the security of the country, he shoutd put .his negative on the motion. Mr. W. SMITH had often expressed his opinion on the subject. lie was''against the clause, but thought the British army wa, obliged to the Hon. Baronet for causing 11-1-: subjeat to be - so' frequently discussed ; discussions . whict , in his opinion nod not led to any harm. He did not approve of the mode in which the subjeti had this . night been treated by the Hon k Baronet. He thought all the topics tending to infilme should Laic been avoided. The army was greatly itich,bted to Mr. Wind() in. The Hpn..Gentleman did not think the .imroduction of the cfause 'on tiL.l third reading was quite 'correct ; the time for proposing it should have been in the Committee. The puni,hinen time, I* was of opinion, would be dispensed with, as was the - case with the Slave Trade. He stated the opinions of some military officers, one of whom thought that corporal - punishment was better avoided, when it could be avoided, for he found that when men got to a certain pass, it did - no,good, and the best - way was to get rid of the men. Another military °dicer, Commander of a Highland regiment, was of a simi lar opinion. He was afraid flogging coulJ not be dispensed with in the army at present, bat he h•-pied the day would arrive when it might with safety be abolished. It might, however, be well not to in troduce that mode of punishment into the Local General TAIILETON approved cif, the 1311 in its present form, and objected to the introdudion of the clause proposed.' He. thought the system of education introduced into the army would tend to do away the necessity of resorting to that mode of punishment complained of. The soldiers in our service had great rewards to look up' to; not only might they rise to be non-commissioned officer:, and afterwards advanced to the rank of Ensigns, but they might even rise from the ranks to Generals. A General died but the other day'who had risen from the ranks, and who had acquired a large for. tune; and left behind him 80,0001. The private men, instead of being in a misthble conditiono.yere better paid, clothed, and attended to, than the sol diers of any other country in the world.' An Hot). Gentleman, who had anticipated three debates, in a speech which he made on this subject, had stated Sir 11. Wilson,, General Money, and another Gene ral, whose name he did not recollea', to be enemies to the present system of punishment. He ball to contradi& this, as far as related to General Money, as he had a letter from him on toe subject, part of which he then read, which was to the following effect : • " Crown Point, Norwich, March ii, ram "My dear General—l have seen in the public hepers my name mentioned as an advnate for the abolition of !Jogging ; enclose a few lines, to spew you what my thoughts - are or}} the subjed. It certainly woul,: be a good thing, if it cu:il.l be veoolished ; but i agree with you, that it cannot be done , without great injury to the discipline of the arrl:y." The Hole. General proCeeded to state to tie House the case of a Serjeant who was once severely pu nished for the escape of a 11 - 1411 who had deserted to the enemy with five hundred pounds belonging to the corps. The innocence of the Seijeant was sub- sequently proved, and the moment he (the Gene ral) was apprised of this, he made him a Setjeant of Cavalry, and a braver soldier was never furnished by the British army than he aterwaids proved him self. In one action he received.six wounds in his. head, and, succeeded in bringing safe a particular dispatch, with which he was charged, This ca was sufficient to prove, that punishment did not. so degrade-a man that he could not afterwards distill. guish himself in the service. • Sir S. ROMILLY spoke in favour of the clause of the Hon. Bart. The punishment of flogging, he contended, must have the effect of degrading men.' The excess to whiCh it - was carried, in many in, stances, Made it, in fad, the punishment of death With exquisite toiture. (Cries of . No, no!) This was denied, but he had seen a publication lately, Which he thought entitled to credit, that contaieed a ease of this description. It was a work published by a society of Mlssionaries ; and the account to which he had alluded was written by a Clergyman, who was called to attend two - deserters in their List moments. The one was sentenced to be shot ; the other to receive a thousand laShes. He had pub lished only an account of the convulsions of the man that was shot. The other he stated to have received 224 lashO, when the Surgeon'said he could, bear no more, and he was taken to the hosi.l al, Where -he died. There was a man, for an offence which ought only to have been visited Wilt a rn;ld punishment, sentenced to bear four times more han God had enabled him to endure. Who could deny but that it . would have been mach better to' have brought out the pool wretch Wand shot him tit once ? • He Concluded, condemning in strong terms the praaice of flogging, and recommending the adoption of the clause, _Ltd C. SOMERSET was certain that the infli,•;lion of lashes could not have caused the death of t!.e man, of whom the Hon. Genrleman bad spoken. If in his punishment there had been any impro priety, he was sure there was a Command vi Chief there who would report the case ; rli:d was equally cert:iin, that there was a Cornua in Chief here, who would not pass it lightly over.— He strongly opposed the clause. Mr. WILBERFORCE, when he considered what the army was, would ..pause before he made a chang -, ..e, in its discipline. He was, however, of opinion, th►+t tre punishment of flogging Would be better Oahe:led by General Courts Martial only. General Pnires observed, the sentences of G.ne ral Courts Martial were mov ft severe those of others, and he had never heard any complaints against Regimental Courts Martial. With resped to tie man who had been spoken ot, he might. have died after receiving 224 lashes, but they were not the cause of his death. The ,Surgeon present at the time they were infitctcd was responsible for ti:e numbltr given. General PORTER bore tes►iimony to the mildne;s with which Courts Martial acted. He knew a wan who had been puni4hed, who was now a Capta u,