The Sun. — London, England, 1852-02-11 00:00:00

Tibitiot I+ SUN OFFICE, Seven o' Clot ,h. IMPERIAL PARLIAAIEIS «• (THIS DAY•) HOUSE OF COMMONS. The SPEAXER took the Chair at Twelve o'clock. Mr. Fox MAULS took the oaths and his seat 01 i his re-election for Perth. PRIVATE BILLS. The following Bills were read a second time, an d ordered to be co mmitt-d:— Barnsley Improvement , Police, Slarkets, &c. Chester and Holyhead Railway Ch e lt e nham Improvement and health. Haw Bridge and Roads. Liverpool Museum and Library. Liverpool Corporation Wsterworks. Lockwood and Meltham Road. Macclesfield and Buxton Road. Midland Great Western of Ireland Railway. Nene Valley Drainage and Navigation Improvement. Oxford, Worcester, and Wolverhampton Railway (No. Oxford, Worcester, and Wolverhampton Railway (No. 2 ). Portsea Gas. Porthdinllaen and Nanthwynant Roads. Bomsey, Broughton, Stockbridge, and Wallop Roads. Runcorn Improvement. e t hillingford, Wallingford, and Reading Road, and Shill ing ford Bridge. Southampton Corporation. South Essex Estuary and Reclamation. Tyne Improvement. MANCHESTER AND SALFORD EDUCA.TiaON BILL. Mr. BROTHERTON moved the second reading of this Bill. The object of the Bill was to provide educe-- lion for the poor of Manchester and Salford, and it would authorise the raising of a local rate, to be ma naged and expended under the authority of the town council. It was of essential importance that the poor of these boroughs should be religiously educated, and, he hoped the House would allow the Bill to go into Com mittee, so that its details might be discussed. It was supported by the majority of the ratepayers in every parish, not only in numerical point of view, but also in point of value.—(Hear , hear.) Great good might be accomplished by carrying out this Bill, and now that the inhabitants of these two large boroughs were anxious to unite for carrying out this laudable purpose, Honourable Members who entertained peculiar views upon this subject would forego them in this instance.—(Hear, hear.) He preferred this Bib to a general measure, because it was intended as a sort of experiment; and if it succeeded, the House would have some foundation to build upon next session in its legislation upon the important topic of the moral educa tion of the people.—(Lear. hear.) Mr. WILLIAM BROWN seconded the motion, and said he took the same view of the Bill as his Honourable Friend who had moved its second reading. It was in tended as au experiment, and he hoped the House would allow it to go into Commi , tee, so that the Goo re-mimetic might be vu, into nos*easion of the best information upon this itennetteont question.—(Heise, hear.) Mr. M. GIBSOS said there were many influentia. people nuts in Manchester and Saiford evrio entettainect strong otaectious to the Bin, and he would suggest that it should oe postponed until they should have had an opportuity of ateting their own case.— (Hear, hear.) He rejoiced to find that the matter had been taken up in the menner it bad been, but tee Bill it self woala c me before use corporation of M , ,ncoester its official capecity on the 15th instant, and unless it were postponed they would be prechried by the standiee ordars from opposing it, in the event of their agreeing to do so. He sbould therefore mow, as an amendment that the second reading be postponed until this day fortnight. Mr. W. PAT TEN was of opinion that no good case had been ra:ide out fur the poitponemeut. The corpo ration end discussed tee principle of the Bill. which he believed teey highly approved of, and if they wished to resist any of its details he was sure they weld raceive every attention from the Committee to whom it w• aid be referred. With regard to the merits of the Lill, he had no hesitation in stating that it was an excellent one. The people of Manchester had long mate up their minds upon the great question of education, end they did not wish to be tied up until the general mtatule should be adopted. The Bill woulo interfere with none of the existing schools, nor would it violate ley of those prejudices or opinions which pre vailed on the subject of religion, though one clause would make it compulsory that the Scriptures should be read in the Lew schools to be established under its authority. The whole of the Dissenting -body of Manchester sad Salford were favourable to the Bill, and although the Roman Catholics were averse to the religious clause, he had reason to believe that they were otherwise not in any way opposed to it. There were 60,000 ratepayers in Manchester, and of that num ber no less than 40,000 had signed a petition in favour of the Bill, and he did think it was the duty of the House to read the Bill a second time. Mr. BRIGHT thought the Honourable Gentleman who had just sat clown had failed entirely in meeting the objection to the Ball. The corporation of Manchester Lad fixed a day for discussing the Bill, and sure]} it was not unreasonable to ask the House to postpone its second reading until after that day. At yet the corporation had not considered the Bill as it now stood; the geeeral question, it was true, had been amply discussed by the corporation, but it was only within tin iest few days that they became acquainted with the real provisions of the Bill, and they had therefore a right to demand that it should be postponed until they had come to some resolution upon the subject. He did not wish to see the Bill rejected, bat there was a great difference of opinion upon the subject in Manchester, and the Bill ought not to go into Committee until the opi nion of the corporation had been put in a proper shape to come before Parliament. He would not go into the merits of the Bill, some Parts of which he opposed, while others he objected to, but he would simply content himself with asking' the House to adopt the amendment. Mr. GLADSTONE considered the subject embraced by the Bill was far too important to be dealt with alto discussed in the shape of a private Bill. It ought to have been made a public measure, and entertaining that belief he was at a loss to understand how he could con sistently support a motion for reading it a second time. There was no member of the Government in his place ready to pronounce an opinion upon it, and after the declaration watch fell from the lips of the Prime Minister the other night, taat after they had disposed of Reform, they ought to take up the subject of national education, the House ought to pause before they adopted a system upon the dictation of Manchester, which might afterwards bind Liverpool or any other large town in the country. This Bill was equally as anomalous as a private Bill would be for the enfranchisement of Manch* ster, and he really did think the House ought ni insist up•n having it discussed as a Public measure. He was quite reedy to accord the uteriwhich , was cistmed for those who concocted this Bill, no doubt their intentions w,re highly laudable; but the. was far to o east a subject to be dealt with iu the nature of a Private Bil l. o f man 0 7 Nevertheless, aldaough he disapproved i s provistoni=, he was willtn4, out of respect for heypeo be sent le terc,Prte c of Manchester, that this Bill should the proper Committee ; but be must again repeat the* be oy r a v" p r Z e d of legislating upon the matter would b m r measure which should be applicable Lc alt the other and al eneetot,,,a:nahea of the country besi , :;es Salford theen there would be somi, chance of &blur,thing lit' 'ii ven, c t l i n e etion, not RS they did a wve , or a gas Bill, but He thought that thisbroad basis of public principle. Billtnweuld be more convenient!) discussed as private on the se con d rea di ng , and he put it to his Hoe - . Friend He mustwhether he had not better con sent to this course.remind the House to w hat the discussion of general principles und er t h e f orm of a private Bill would most lik e l y lead.i The rent!: :don for the se, wh en i t Wou ld be that the whole coarse of legislatio n Souse, cou ntry would be a ffected by it, for t h e e ca me to discuss g reat g ener al principl es, would find themse l ve s bound down by some former decision on the subject in a private Bill. He wished t 0 have a full di cuseion on this Bill with the House full y aware of what they were d o i n g, and what particular Course was th 811 after thead received in tended to be adopted He should support --- a second reading, motion for postponement. Mr. CARDWELL•thought the . objections urged b„, the Right Hon. Gentleman entirety technical ia f ar and operations. Here wer e 40,000 ratepayers of M au . cheater coming forward before the House to ask f or authority to sanction a measure for general education for the borough, and they were met by dilatory pea r:mils. Re thought that there °Meld be no opportunity so favourable as the present for full discussion. The people of Manchester had been driven to take this course by the rejection of the general measure of education which had been brought before that House during the last few years, and he thought the House could do no less than take into consideration the measure for which they asked. Mr. W. J. FOX denied that there was an entire una nimity among the religious sects of Manchester on the subject of this Bill. This was very far from being the fact. It might be true that a majority of ratepayers had signed the petition for this Bill, but there were many among those who sig ned the petition simply as a means of obtaining s ome p lan of education be it what it might. If he was corr ectl y informed, a ma j or ity of the actual inhabitants of Manchester had signed a peti tion in favour of an entirely different nature, and these comprised those classes whom the measure most chiefly concerned, those who were to r e c e ive the education which it was proposed to give. With regard to the present Bill, he would support it, b ecause 1.1 did not fulfil the two conditions which had been laid by the Noble Lord at the head of the Government in his speech last session, namely, that any measure to be not offend by the Government must be reli g io us , and ..I. en d the religious consciences of any persons. Ile shoune support suffer b the motion for postp o nement, in order as the great pr puld discussed as fully andfa ir ly Mr. HIT efiE ine IP-le which it imagined deserved. education ivoul oai d not t hi n k th a t the great question of pored for a fe w d ays. - the present being post was a private Bill, could not think that - this a ble Member for Liver he diff e r e d f r om the Eigeour opportune period f or It r a PV, that this was the most mem ber of the Governm ent w _ a lseossion, as no leading o a ti s te present After the declaration of the iron er atuo disnuss this night he thought it would be pre i private is question under the form of a r 1,, _qt l'Neon t . IL would be of crest h fi ; h - „„" .re t, been sure _ moned thia Pnas awe a tta ' t . however, moned to Windsor , and were, therefore , present. The fairest coarse t h etlildbe la"e to atin to be urn the debate until Wednesqay next, when they could be presnt. He should, therefore, move an adjournment. The &bate was then adjourned to Wednesday next. NEW RIVER COMPANY BILL. On the motion for the second reading of this Bill, Mr.COWPER opposed the second reading of this Bill, I because it gave.the New River Company power to take the waxer from the River Lee, the navigation of which bad been for many years invested in the hands of trus tees. The Bill would also interfere with snits at law and evity now pending. As one of the trustees, he felt himself called upon to move that this Bill be read a se cond time this day six months. Sir E. COLEBROOKE supported the second reading of the Bill. Major BERESFORD opposed the Bill as a trustee of the River Lee, on the ground that it would give power to the New River Company to destroy private property, to which they had no right. Mr. HUME thought that after the resolutions which had been passed last year with regard to this Bill anion; others, the second reading should be allowed to pass sub silentio. Mr. F. MACKENZIE was perfectly satisfied that the abstraction of so great a body of water from the River Lee would injure the navigation, and he should therefore oppose the second reading of the Bill. Mr. COWPER explained that this Bill was not the same as had been introduced last session. The House then divided, when there appeared— For the second reading ... ... 80 Against it Majority ... —26 - - The Bill was then read a second time. PORTSMOUTH AND GOSPORT WATERWORKS BILL. Mr. GEACH moved the second reading of this Bill. Sir F. BARING opposed the motion, on the ground that the Bill interfered with the local board of health, who had powers conferred upon them to supply the towns with water. He thought those powers ought not to be taken away, because they enabled the board to give a better supply of this great necessary to the poor as well as the rich, much more effectually than an in dependent private company. He had charge of a peti tion, signed by all the influential inhabitants of Ports mouth, praying that the Bill should not be passed. On looking over the list of shareholders who promoted the Bill he found that not one of them was connected with that town. He was at a loss to imagine why a body of gentlemen, strangers to Portsmouth, should go down on a Quixotic expedition for the purpose of conferring a benefit upon the inhabitants. It had been rumoured that their object was to pass the Bill, and then to obtain compensation from the Board of Health, who were empowered to make the compulsory purchase of existing waterworks. Sir G. ST AUNTON also opposed the Bill. Mr. HUME thought the House would do right to negative the motion for the second reading. Lord EBRINGTON hoped the House would not pass the Bill, especially after the statement of Sir F. Bating. _ The amendment was agreed to, and the Bill was con sequently thrown out. WEXFORD HARBOUR IMPROVEMENT. This Bill was read a second time. . EXCHEQUER-BILLS. The House then went into a Committee of Supply. Mr. C. LEWIS moved a vote CI f 17,742,800/. it; Ex chequer-bills. Mr. HUsIE inquired whether it was not possible to reduce the interest upon Exchequer-bills. Mr. C. LEWIS said he was not able to answer the' question, iu the absence of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer. Mr. W. WILLIAMS considered that the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to be in his place when such a proposition was made to the House. Me. C. LEWIS said the absence of the Chancellor of the ExchequsT was owing to his attendance being re quireu at a Cabinet Council. Mr. W. WILLIAMS thought the House ought to be informed of the rate of interest the bills would bear during the ensuing year. Mr. HUME said when the report was brought up he would repeat his question. In reply to Sir H. WILLOUGHBY, Mr. HUME stated that the Chancellor of the Ex chequer had intimated to him that he would not object to re-nominate the Committee appointed last year to consider the mode of levying the income-tax. The vote was then agreed to, and the House resumed. VENTILATION OF THE HOUSE. Mr. B. OSBORNE called attention to the evidence given by Dr. Reid at the bar relating to the ventilation of the House. He observed that the subject was of very great importance considering the wear and tear vi hich the constitution of a con siderable per-tentage of Members underwent during six months in the year. It was said by the Rev. Sid ney Smith with reference to locking up passengers in rrilway carriages, that no attention would be paid to the subject until some great dignitary was roasted on a rail road. Now he was very much of opinion that until some of the moat robust Members of the Treasury benches were ventilated to another place, or some of the leading Members of the country party almost stifled, no effectual steps would be taken to improve the est moshere of the House. If the matter had been referred to the House of Assembly in Jamaica the chamber they occupied could not have been ,worse ventilated. The defective arrangements were entirely owing to one cause, viz., divided authority.—(Hear.) One of the most remarkable men of the day, the Duke of Welling ton, who always hit the right nail on the head, so long ago as 1846 told the House of Lords that the dispute between Mr. Barry and Dr. Reid would lead to great in convenience, and. it was because his advice was not taken that Members found themselves in their present posi tion. The lighting and ventilation of the House could not be disunited, or effected satisfactorily under two distinct managements.—(Hear.) The cramped appearance of the windows would induce a stranger to think that they had been erected to evade the window-tax. —(Laughter.) They were bad in heraldry and design, and gave aearcely any light. He was unable properly to describe the figures or daubs repesented upon them.— (Hear.) The light, too, was extremely bad for the eyes. It was impossible for Members to be always un der the influence of an atmosphere of railways.— (Lotel laughter.) The temperature varied considerably in different parts of the House in consequence of the re fraction from the lamps. He found the thermometer the other night at 70 degrees, but on placing a hat over it and keeping off the light there was in a few minutes a difference of nearly two degrees.---(Hear.) The strangers, gallery was one of the m , st abominable places of punish ment that could be conceived.—(Hear.) It was impossible when in it to distinguish more than the Speaker and four Members who were near him.—(A laugh.) The reason WV, that the lights con ratted the pupil of the eye, and therefore obstructed the vision. It was with the greatest difficulty that he could distinguish the well-known features of the Speaker.--(Loud laughter.) On the part of the public, therefore, he called for some alteration of the light and ventilation.—(Hear.) He would turn next to the gentlemen of the press, those valuable members—for so he would call them—who so ably reported the debates.—(Hear, bear.) The an loyance they were subject to, if not remedied, would certainly destroy their eyesight and their health. He would go a step higher—to the ladies—(Laughter) who were condemned to a miserable place, which he would call something between a birdcage and a tea caddy.—(Great laughter.) In their room a partition had been erected, which made the place so confined as to render it difficult fur them to breathe. Their convenience had been sacrificed to Mr. Barry's ideas of the Gothic, as if they were to be bricked up like ladies in a esenastery.—(Laughter.) Dr. Reid told him that he had ee personal quarrel with Mr. Barry, and that their only differeece had reference to questions of science. But ,hietice was no reason why Members shcald at one time be roasted, at another boiled, and another frozen.— (Laughter.) Therefore, on behalf of Mt-mbers and the public, he called upon the House to entrust the ventila tion, warming, and lighting of the House,:to one respon sible person. The resolutions which he proposed were three in numb er; first, that Dr. Reid be authorised to complete suc temporary arrangement as were impera tively necessary to maintain a better atmosphere during the sittings of the House ; secondly, that the warming, lighting, and ventilation of the House and libraries be placed in the hands of one responsible party; and, thirdly, that Dr. Reid be called upon to submit forth with a full report of the alterations he considers essential for the health and comfort of the House, with an estimate of the probable expense, stating especi a lly what plan he proposed for lighting the House.—(Loud cries of " Hear.") [We may as well mention in parenthesis, that while the heat in front of the reporters' gallery is very great, owing to its close Contiguity to the lamps, a strong draft of cold air is o """Inially thrown down from some apertures behind the beads and backs of the reporters. s behind observation s Their position is len under the present system of ventila tiondlesex on the e xtremelyperienneia unpleasant, and as far as our ex concerned, we are inclined to agree in the which fell from the Hon. Member for Mid isdieb The resolution:lr.-1 the motion of the lit o -N Sir J . pAgi na ,glng been at, said be would cordially second was very much Me m ber. He thought the House and able manner in wi t i l . to him for the praiseworthy matter. There was very Lull he had inquired into the system of ventilation beingreat reason for the entire twr had said the windows g changed. The Hon. Mem evade the window-tax, butagePeared to be constructed to what sort of window -tax • c oul d not conceive under 'wind ow _ with duty which gav e no wwidowsi n dows could be charged The windows were the first he had ev l g e b t• — (A laugh.) more light at night than in the day tirmseen which gave si r J. Pakington bore testimony t o the excel l ent ghter.) l a ti o n of the old House of Commons, eaudventi he saw no r eason why the n ew one said der the sam e M should I not be placed u n , management .—( Hear.) as.—(Ree ven tilation ) L or d SEYMOUR at once a d m itted that b ot h th .' and the lighting of the House were exceedingly defective, bat he had p ersonally had nothin g to d , wi th the arrangements since November last. It was imp os sible, n . sible, h oweve r, to place the whole of the building wirier the control of Dr. Reid, because the House of Lords was already in the hands of Mr. Barry. This House. how ever, was wider the charge of Dr. Reid, and for sh e purpose of -- carrying ou t his plans BO less shall 57,800/, had been expenied, besides an annual expenditure of 1,300/, f or D r . ReioP„iniy,—(flear, hear.) Previous to the meeting of the House this session, Dr. Reid in formed him that the machinery which had been erected under his superintendence we re so defect ive that it w ould not act, whil e one portion of it produced such an immense heat that the officials had been more than once surprised with alarm of fire.—(Hear.) Dr. Reid's oroo oy=d system of ventilation was this--he collected .„. 1 0 lummit of the ci s. r, .: :IV , 19 .e..._ „,:oivor, it ,lAc , • , d o ,-L; vizairmt:r4i feet, 1 itaic , ;z4 :Yid he tinuhted suer cno sic wLiuh pub.4„i thr,-,u K 4 sue" ,a c. chanl4l, co uld be such a 3 the hous e ought to b re: in the corridors had b een altered and t h e The lighting of mut , closing of the chambers had been carried out as Dr. Reid suggested, but the matter of ventilation, as pro pounded by Dr. Reid, was of such a complicated charac ter, that he doubted whether it could be accomplished. —(Hear, hear.) The question, however, for the House to consider was, what should be done for the future.— (Hear, hear) If they placed the library as well as the House under the control of Dr. Reid, it would in volve the sacrifice of the machinery already in operation under Mr. Barry, and a very large expenditure of public money.—(Hear, hear.) For ven tilating this building Mr. Barry and Dr. Reid had to gether expended 200,0001; and it was now for the House to decide whether they should still proceed in the same extravagant course.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped before the House sanctioned these resolutions they would call in some independent person to determine what ought to be done ; and with that recommendation he would sit down.—(Hear.) Mr. DRUMMOND contended that all the chambers attached ought to be placed under the same management as the House itself.—(Hear, hear.) This question was not so difficult as Dr. Reid and Mr, Barry wished to make it, but he believed architects knew nothing what ever of ventilation, and therefore recommended that the ventilation should be placed in the hands of some scien tific man who thoroughly understood the business. Mr. BOOKER suggested that Sir Henry De la Beche of the British Museum should be called in to decide what ought to be done. Sir DENHAM NORRES reminded the House that Sir Henry Do la Beche was a geologist, and not a medical man, who had studied ventilation, and also recalled to their recollection that Dr. Reid promised to give them good ventilation in the old House. and he kept his word. Why not, then, call upon him to make a similar promise in respect to this building, and give him ample means and full authority to carry it out? Mr. FITZROY had already recommended the House to appoint a Committee to investigate this matter, and if his recommendation had been adopted they would have been nearer a remedy for the evils under which they suffered than they were at present.—(Hear, hear.) He was now, however, disposed to advise the House to leave the whole subject in the hands of the Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests, and he moved an amendment to that effect accordingly.—(Hear, hear.) Sir R. H. INGLIS seconded this proposal. He did not think the House was a fair or proper tribunal for settling this question, but nevertheless the sooner they got rid of the present windows the better. It was better to have a good artificial light in the middle of the day than a bad natural, or rather an unnatural light, and he trusted this part of the subject would not be lost sight of. The expenditure which had been eisclosed to them to-day was monstrous, and he therefore though= the best course the House could pursue was to leave the whole matter in the hands of the Noble Lord opposite, who would be responsible to the House for what he did. Mr. E. B. ROCHE, so far from regretting that the House had taken this matter into its own hands, he for one rejoiced that the House had called Dr. Reid to the bar, for it had led to the disclosure of facts that would astound the public, he was sure, as much as it had surprised the House itself.—(Hear, hear.) The lighting and ventilating of the House ought to be conducted by the same party, and so long as the two were kept separate, so long would the House suffer from the evils which it complained of.—(Bear, hear.) It almost appeared to him that the best course to pursue was to dismiss both Dr. Reid and Mr. Barry. They could not agree, and the consequence was, that while one was blowing hot, the other was puffing cold air upon the House.—(Hoar, hear.) Mr. GREENE felt it due to Dr. Reid and Mr. Barry to state that much or the expense referred to by the Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests had been in curred at the recommendation of the House itself in some of its Committees, but at the same time he also felt it necessary to warn the House against leaving the adjustment of this question to a person who could not be held responsible to the House. It was much better to lean it in the hands of the Noble Lord, as it had already been proposed, and then the House would have some guarantee that its convenience anti comfort would be attended to.—(bear, hear.) Lord HARRY VANE expressed a hope that the amendment would be adopted, but with this under standing, that the Noble Lord should have full power to consult or call in to his assistance whomsoever he plea.ed.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME thought the object of the proposer of the original motion had been obtained, for the Noble Lord admitted that the lighting and ventilating of the House were net only defective, but that they ought not to be under separate management, and the House, therefore, mold have no difficulty in adopt ng that part of the original resolution, which affirmed the same thing. —(Hear, hear.) Having done that, he could see no ob jection to leaving the matter in the hands of the Noble Lord, wbo would in future be responsible to the House for the expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. PACKE thought it was clear that much of the public money had been wasted through the disunion which existed between this House and the House of Lords upon this matter. They ought to have co-operated together, and then the work would have been well and economically done.—(Hear, hear.) Colonel SIBTHORP was at a loss to see what re sponsibility would attach to the Noble Lord if the House left the matter in his hands, for if he was not mistaken the Government would be shortly kicked out, and then where would the responsibility of the Noble Lord be?—(Hear and laughter.) Why, having spent the public money as he liked, the Noble Lord would snap his fingers at the House when out of office, and refuse to give any explanation.—(A. laugh.) He viewed all Com missioners and Treasury-bench responsibility gentlemen with suspicion.—(A laugh.) After a few words from Mr. COWAN, Mr. B. OSBORNE said that no one could have lis tened to the Noble Lord the First Commissioner with out seeing that his mind had been greatly influenced by Mr. Barry. He wished to guard the House against this, for what security had it against the dismissal of Dr. Reid by the Noble Lord, and the substitu tion of Mr. Barry's plan of non-ventilation. He had not framed those resolutions without considerable thought; and if a sufficient number of Members would s upport him, he would stand by them. The Noble Lord might very likely listen to other ventilators, and then all the e xpense which th e y h a d a l rea d y i ncurre d i n pur chasing Dr. Reid's plans would be thrown away; and while be was doing so, the healsh of Hon. Members would be ruined. Indeed, he could almost fancy already that he saw some of his respectable friends growing older every day before his eyes.—(Laughter.) After a few words of explanation from Lord SEY M OUR, The House divided, when there appeared— For the first resolution ... ... ... 96 Against it... ... ... ... ... 68 Majority The other resolutions were then agreed to without a division. IRISH WORKS. Colonel DUNNE moved for returns of all works the execution of which was undertaken by the Board of Works, on the authority of the Lords Commis sioners of the Treasury, under the Act;9 and 10 Vic.. o. 107. and of the certificates given, according to the Bth section of said Act, to the secretaries of grand juries in Ireland, of the execution of such works. Mr. E B. ROCHE, in seconding the motion, hoped that it would be remarked by those who said that Ireland wished to repudiate the sums which had bean advanced to her that Irish Members bad not lost a moment in asking for a Bill of particulars. No parties in Ireland had shown the slightest inclination to repudiate, but they said that the Government had debited to the account of Ireland about twice as much as she had received. Mr. F. FRENCH supported the motion. Sir LUCIUS O'BRIEN said it was a mistake to call these works at all, they were merely a clumsy. contriv ance to distribute money among a starving people. The responsibility did not rest, therefore, with the landed gentry and persons of property in Ireland, but with the Government. After a few words from Mr. NAPIER, the return was agreed to. Colonel DUNNE then moved for returns of each work undertaken under the provisions of the Act 9 Vie., c. 1, and 9 and 10 Vic., c. 107; also, for works under taken under Mr. Labouchere's letter; and of the reasons for not giving any of the above information when it is found impracticable to do so.—Agreed to. PRINTING. On the motion of Mr. C. LEWIS, the following mo tion was agreed to:—" Select Committee to assist Mr. Speaker in all matters which relate to the printing ex ecuted by order of this House, and for the purpose of selecting and arranging for printing returns and papers presented in pursuance of motions made by Members of this House"—Mr. Cornewall Lewis, Sir Robert Harry Inglis, Mr. Pusey, Mr. Strutt, Sir John Young, Viscount Mahon, Mr. John Greene, Mr. Cardwell, and Mr. Loch. Three to be a quorum. INCOME-TAX. Mr. HUME moved for the re- a ppointment of a Com mittee to inquire into the present mode of assessing and collecting the income and property-tax, whether any other mode of levying the same, so as to render the tax more equitable, can be adopted, and to nominate the fol lowing Members:—The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Thomas Baring, Mr. Cobden, Mr. Disraeli, Mr. Horsman, Mr. Henley, Mr. Vesey, Mr. Mackenzie, Mr. James Wilson, Mr. Ricardo, Mr. Roebuck, Col. Romilly, Lord Harry Vane, and Mr. Sotheron.—Agreed to. THE RECAL OF SIR HARRY SMITH. The following copy of a dispatch from Earl Grey to Governor Sir H. G. Smith, Bart., G.C.8., is printed among the papers on the Kafir war recently presented to both Houses of Parliament : " Downing street, Jan. 14, 1852. " have received and laid before the Queen your dispatches of the sth and 19th of November, re porting the results of the operations of the war since the date of your dispatches by the previous mail. "2. I learn from these dispatches that another month of this distressing warfare has passed away, and though the force at your disposal had been increased to a very considerable amount no advantage of any real import ance has been gained over the enemy, while the loss of her Majesty's troops has been exceedingly heavy, that very distinguished officer, Lieutenant-Colonel Fordyce, being included among those who have fallen. "3. I have said that no real advantage has been gained, because, while you state that positions of ex traordinary strength have been stormed, and it is clear that the most determined courage has bean shown by her Majesty's troop, these successes (if they can be called so) have been entirely barren of useful results; and it appears from the reports of Major- General Somerset, and particulary from his dispatch dated the 9th of November, that the ground thus hardly won could not be retained, and that the position which was carried at the price of such heavy loss to the 74th Regiment on the 6th of November, was only held until the Major-General withdrew the troops in the after noon,' when it would seem that there was no obstacle to its being re -occupied by the enemy, and that in fact it was so. ....._ _ ,4 For several months your dispatches have been of a similar character. You have described to me opera tions which I have cons t ant l y b een assure d h a d b een atte nded with success, and had inflicted heavy loss upon the enemy, while there could be no doubt that the troops had foug ht with their accustomed gal lantry; but at th e same t i me I am qu i te una bl e to while it was obvi ous t h at t h e enemy, f ar f rom b e i ng dis couraged by their any ground had really been gained, heir supposed defeats, were from month to month increasing is boldness and determination; and the inflicted was at least as certain, and bore no but too clearly proved that the loss they had list of casualtie s small proportion to that which they were believed to have sustained. very ' 5 impossible that I should continue to re ceive ma . I mails ls s intelligenceitou to f f being led to en this description entertain r t b a y i la many serious s e succes sive doubts whether the war had been conducted with the energy and the judgment which were necessary to bring it to an early and successful issue; but distress ing as was the anxiety which these doubts occasioned, I have not hitherto allowed them to induce me to deprive you of that support which I know it is of the utmost importance to the public service that those in high mili tary commands should be able to rely on not having lightly withdrawn from them by the advisers of the Crown, when, in situations of difficulty and danger, suc cess does n ot at once atten d t h e i r exertions. " 6. But th e i nformat i on I h ave now received has con , verted wh at was before only a very ser i ous d ou b t i nto con viction; and it is my painful duty to inform you that, having consulted my colleagues on the subject, they have concurred with me i u com i n g to the conclusion that, upon a careful r ev i ew o f t h e events o f the war and those whi c h preceded its br ea ki ng ou t, there is evidence, which it is impossible longer to resist, that you have failed in show , iug th at foresight, energy, and judgment which your very difficult Good positi on requ ired, and that therefore we should not be ju s tifi e d i n shr i n ki ng f ro m tendering fo the Q ueen our humbl e a d v i ce t h a t t h e Government of the Cape o f Hope and the conduct of the war should be placed in other hands. It has accordingly been my duty to submit to her M a je s ty my advice that Major. General Cathcart s h oul d b e appo i nte d to relieve you, o f w hi c h her M a j esty has been pleased to approve, and that ()Men. will very shortly proceed to the Cape for that purpose. _ __ - InF ed hardly assure you that I cannot make this communication without great pain and sincere reluc tance, and that nothing hut a sense of imperative duty would have led my colleagues and myself to take the course have felt ourselves compelled to adopt. " We do full justice to the ardent zeal for her Ma jesty's service whioh you have uniformly displayed ; we have not forgotten how greatly you havie distinguished yourself on former occasions, and what a high military reputation you have deservedly obtained; but we have been compelled to believe that, perhaps from the failure of your health, and your being no longer able to ex ercise as close a personal superintendence as formerly .over the conduct of affairs, you have failed in givi ng , either to your military operations or to your political measures bearing upon the war, that character of vigour and judgment which are necessary to in. spire confidence in the inhabitants and troops and to command success. I must remind you that the first error which was committed, and to which I believe the failure of a policy otherwise sound and the calamity of the war are mainly attributable, was the premature reduc tion of the British force under your command. I must take upon myself a share of the blame for this mistake, inas much as I had probably too often and too strongly press e d upon you the importance of reducing the number of troopsdisc discretion iaosa wassoon as unfettered, this c y ou d be were safely left done.to decide for Still your yourself when the troops should be sent home, since thiri was a point on which a judgment could only be formed on the spot; and the error, therefore, was your own of supposing that a large proportion of the force which you found in the colony could without danger so soon be dis pensed with. - "8. I must also remind you that, up to the eve of the actual breaking out of hostilities, you continued to send me the strongest assurances that there existed no real danger, and that the apprehensions expressed by the frontier farmers wore unfounded. Even when the war began you were so little aware of its true cha racter that you made no application to me for additional force ; and neither in your public nor your private letters did you give me the slightest intimation that such aid was required; and the re-in forcements which were immediately dispatched, as well as those which have been subsequently sent, have all, with the exception of the last, anticipated your demands for them. It is not for me to express any opinion on the detail of your military operations; but it must strike even an unprofessional observer that, by the employment of means which you considered adequate for the purpose, no serious impres sion appears to have been made on the enemy. It fol lows that you have either been entirely mistaken in your judgment' and have consequently led her Majesty's Government into error as to the character of the war and the amount of force required, or else that you have failed in using with effect the force at your disposal. "9. With regard to the political measures bearing upon the results of the war, I must r e fer you to the dispatch which I have been compelled to address to you by the present mail on the neglect of . the pre cautions obviously required in order to obstruct the supply of ammunication to the enemy. The fault in this respect must n o d ou bt b e in part attri buted to the Colonial Secr e t ar y, w h om you had left in charge of the Governmen t a t C a pe Town, but if you had intimated to me that Mr. Montagu could not alone adequately discharge the arduous duties which devolved upon him in your absence, I should not have failed immediately to have afforded you further assist ance, by the appointment of a civil Lieutenant -Go vernor, to reside at Cape Town during the war—a step I propose adopting now the necessity for it has thus been disclosed to me. " 10. I must also observe that you have, I believe, tru ly r epresented to me, that if you had had the K afirs only to contend with, the war would long since ha ve b een brought to a close ; an d t h at w h a t h as made them sach formidable enemies h as b een th e assistance they have derived from the rebel Hottentots, too many of whom had been trained as soldiers in the ranks of the British army. Bat if this is, as I believe, a correct view of the subject, I must regard it as a most fatal error that the first instances of treason among this class of inhabitants of the Cape were not dealt with more promptly and more severely. I cannot resist the belief that, had this been done, the contagion of disaffection would have been stayed, as the prompt punishment of the real traitors would have calmed th 4 fears naturally excited among the white inhabitants by seeing t h e ir impunity, a nd would thus have prevented the colonists of European descent from being led to entertain and display that in discriminate jealousy of their coloured fellow-subjects, which has been, as there is too much reason t o fear, the means of driving int o di ssat i s f act i on many of the latter, who were not origi na ll y i nc li ne d to it. " 11. Lastly, I must regard it as a g rievous error that you have allowed t h e adm i n i strat i o n of the Orange River territory t o remain too l ong in the hands of an officer in yo ur own opinion unequa l to the task, and that by this an d other mistakes i n your management of the Dutch inhabitants of the frontier districts, while,more waryou tahave failed to conciliate that important class, by whose cordial co-operation there can be no a prospect of; doubt that you would have been enabled to bring the n o c f; h condition of the sovereignty, y our difficulties than there is now difficulties in Kafra rim have been very seriously increased. The:manner in which, by judicious management, Mr. Pine has suc ceeded in Natal in securing the confidence and attach meta of the Dutch farmers, as described in your dis patch No. 193, clearly p r oves that, if prop er ly treated, the roy may b e ren d ere d l o y a l and useful su bj ects of the Cwn. RETURNS. On the motion t o v f is iN it l o r r , a li te UN th lE e m a e r s e e t e ur m n wo f th as e agreed to o of the number Edin burgh University d y u pd rin f g or th a e re la tu st ru te o n r ye h a s r t s. of the articles 01335 is imposed; stating the name princi pwahMlierh.alli'lduty manufacture d 'i Eo fceeduu in at yto amount collected l Al e i imported ort e d into this country on o a r l t s e e d , in th t e he andthe quantity a d t i a t y y o o duty paid on each article, and the aggreagnadtetho charged, of January, each ur t ic o l fl e dB i su m l p ; yearrate o ending duty in the year. —o ct_ed an all imported manu facturese imported into this a return of the principal articles of agricultural produc a mount paid on each article, the rite of duty, and the fdut ' coun try on which any duty of Customs is imposed; stating on all agricultural and the aggregate amount o_ produce, in the year ending the duty day of January, 18 51 (in continuatinn of Parliamentary paper, No. 146, of seasion 1850 ).—Agreed to. for or under t e amount of m oney levied by assessment, Mr. G. A . H AMILTON moved for accoun t s o f the name of poor -rates t or borough rates, in court , po IFoe , England a n d Wales, for each of the years ending Ladyl ---'- ------- • RLIA 31- day. 1842, 1847, and 1851 respectively; and in Irelan', IMPERIAL PA . 0 I r'. - .i.;::. , , , , : ,R . vs, Feb. 10 . ~- i-:,,,,r-e,;,t,:,,c(maity (IlAs, b,)rougir or frathiet- ti ..1 - • -HOUSE OF -" ctit;oll from Co:it, cur in g 4.4 eh of th e fttne yi , ars pirding the 29th uay ' Lord CAL.WBELL Pre", ...,, morw v, Sei.telml•.wr; of the annual v.aur, of property KSSessed , g , t i r ,, t the pl.yrnit ~f illAliute! , : rey. . t i,,,, poot-1.,..tes in EngLiid sad Wales, and ill IfebillU , BAN-" Ut the Secretary of during each of the same years,—,Agrced W. On the motion of Lord. CAMPBELL, Th e gouse then adjourned. Bankrupts' -office Abolition n Dill was read a second time. iiti - ..c1 3 p • . , " 12. It has been with much reluctance that I have your eoausro judgment entered into this review of the errors which you seem to me to have committed, but I have thought it due to . our position and to your high reputation to show that her Majesty's servants have not determined to advise the Queen to supersede you in the midst of the war without sufficient cause for doing so; and for this d p g a m in e f n u t l o a n s ly it has been to me to write to you in such a tone of censure, I have been compelled to point out the errors into which you have been betrayed. It is, however, some satisfaction to me Ifiryoulues, operations had to be able to add, that I have no doubt it has been to the best to acquit yourself of duties of no ordinary LE of your d regular ability, which has been you havei in fe ult , endeavoured that, i . diffi culty; ; nor do I doubt that in more ill. wartare against a civilised enemy, and if you wou ld have as distinguished. by Wh ich you had formerly been so much " I am, &0., (Signed) ".GREY. beenlesshcieovmersdliethideedsabmyY: political c m c s " Lieutenant- General Sir H. G. Smith, Bart." ENT. OUTRAGES IN IRELAND. Lord RODEN described , the dreadful outrages which had been committed in Monaghan, Ar magh, and Down, not only at night but in open day, upon the peaceably-di:Tosed of her Majesty's subjects, and inquired whether it was the intention of the Government to propose any measures to arrest the wide-spread evil, the common law having been found to be insufficient? Lord LANSDOWNE said the Government were fully alive to the importance of the duty imposed upon them to repress these outrages, and they had for that purpose increased the constabulary, and adopted other measures which had been recommended by the local magistrates. It was with sorrow he was compelled to add, that in some instances the law had failed, but he was not disposd to say that extraordinary measures ought to be adopted until all the means of repression in the hands of the Go vernment had been tried. Information had been re ceived within the lust few days from parties concerned in the outrages and others which led to the hope that the object of the Government would yet be attained. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had been, during last year, for a considerable time in Ireland, and he re gretted to say that in the northern districts, where for merly the population was industrious and obedient, there had been some lamentable instances of insubordination and murder. Much of that, he feared, was owing to the agitation that had been going on with regard to the question of what was called tenant right. In the north of Ireland there had been a nucleus formed of these murder associations; but a period had now arrived when they must look to the general expression of popular feeling. It was the tenant cry that had disturbed the imaginations of she people, and he could refer to his own case, for he had until lately the most orderly and attached tenantry in Ireland, and the associations that had been formed with reference to that subject had taken very much the character of that Ribbon association or organization, for the purpose of compelling the landlords to reduce their rents. There was, certainly, a diminished feeling of respect for their landlords on the part of the tenantry. So great was the intimidation of some parts of. Ireland that agents who performed their duty were not able to insure their lives. The Marquis of WESTMEATH recommended the Government to reflect that that outburst of the Ribbon system was one that had been going on for years, and was not a sudden outbreak, while the remedy was only calculated to act temporarily. When the Government was about to prepare a measure, they should consider that the Ribbon conspiracy involved the great bulk of the population against their wishes and their choice, and therefore it was necessary that very stringent measures should be adopted. He would observe that in the pre sent condition of Ireland, the district in which the dis turbances took place was saddled with the expense of the additional police force; bus these offences were gene.. rally perpetrated by strangers, and the proposition of the Government was consequently an additional infliction upon these people. It was a question with him whether that portion of the Act ought not to be repealed. The Noble Marquis had suggested that the landlords should co-operate with the Government in endeavouring to re store tranquillity. It ought to be distinctly understood lest the idea should go abroad that the Noble Marquis was reading a lecture to the landlords, that these parties were made to suffer for carrying out the most ordinary provisions of the law in cases share for years and years no rent had been paid. He hoped the Noble Marquis's object in that respect would not be misunderstood. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said the view he wished to convey was, that the landlords should co operate with the Government by taking care that the instigators of these proceedings should not derive, nor appear to derive, any benefit from it; that they should have no pretence for saying that the reduction of rent would be accomplished by the measures of outrage to which they resorted. The Earl of RODEN regretted the Government was not able to announce any measure for the enforcement of the law in Ireland. He should be happy to find that the Noble Marquis was right, and that he himself was wrong. Unless the Government took some measures to uproot that conspiracy they would do no good. He re joiced at the explanation that had just been elicited from the Noble Marquis, otherwise a false impression might go abroad. He trusted also that the landlords would use every exertion to restote confidence to the people; and he trusted above all that they would not not be in timidated, and he wished his voice would reach all of them, but that they would remain at their poste and in the discharge of their duty, even at the risk of their lives.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that whatever means might be suggested would be effectu,l; but he should prefer postponing any further observations until he saw how things went on in Ireland. He freely confessed, from what he had heard and saw, he feared that things would grow worse, and that the Government would hereafter regret that they did not take more prompt and efficieet measures. The Earl of DYSART hoped some means would be devised to put a stop to these tenent-league meetings. The conversation then dropped, and their Lordships adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 10. TEN AN I' RIGHT. Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD moved for leave to bring in a Bill to provide for the better securing and regulating the custom of tenant right, as practised in the province of Ulster, and to secure compensation to improving tenants who way not make claim under the said custom, and to limit the power of eviction in certain cases. This, he said, was called a tenant-right question, but he proposed, if the House gave him leave to bring in the Bill, ample provision would be made in it for ee curie.. the rights of landlords. The grievances com plained of by the tenants of Ireland had long existed and were of no slight character.—(Hear, hear.) They in flicted great injustice upon the tenant, and many evils wero produced by the present system which would not exist at all if a Bill like this were adopted. It could not be said that the nature of these grievances was not known and fully understood by the Legislature, because the matter had often been inquired into by Committees and commissions; and the House must by this time be well informed upon the subject.—(Hear, hear.) The present system gave no impetus to industry; from the in security in which tenants lived now tney were reluctant to make extensive improvements in the soil, and the re sult was bad cultivation and the non-payment of rents. — (Hear.) Then, to aggravate these evils, the landlords had adopted the practice of consolidating the farms, and the people had been reduced to such a state of misery and fright that they were glad of an opportunity to take wing to America or some other hospitable land thst was willing to receive them.—(Hear, hear ) He did not wish to revive the old cry against the landlord class, but after the exeimples and warnings they had had of late, he thought they could no longer with hold the concession of tenant right to the yeomanry of' Ircland.—(Hear, hear.) The objects of this Bill were two; first, it was to give security by law to the property created by the industry of the tenant; and, secondly, it would enable the out going tenant to claim compensation for all improvements he may have accom plished on his farm in the course of his tenantry. The object of the Bill had often been approved of by Lord Stanley, and to show the importance of adopting it, he need only mention that his o union contained 93,000 acres of land, which had been improved by the capital and labour of the tenants to the extent of Si. ; and therefore, under the present system, there was at this moment more than 700,0001. of property belonging to the tenantry that was wholly at the mercy, whim, will, or caprice of the land lord.—(Hear, hear.) The object, then, of his Bill was to meet such cases as that, and if the Legislature would only pass its provisions into a law, the soil of Ireland would become morn fruitful, and its cultivators would be made happy and contented.—(Elear, hear.) Mr. KEOGH seconded the motion. Sir G. GREY said, as the House had on several occa sions allowed the Hon. Member to lay on the table such a Bill as he now proposed, he t hould offer no opposition to its being brought in, but if its provisions were the same as those of the former Bill, the Hon. Member must expect to encounter a Government Opposition on the se cond reading. He admitted many of the facts which the Hon. Member had stated, while he conceded to him that the tenantry of Ireland laboured under great and mani fold evils and grievances ; but he was afraid the remedy which the no.. Gentleman proposed would be totally inadequate to meet the case.—(Rear.) Some reference had been made to the recent outrages committed in one or two parts of Ireland, but he denied that those out rages were the result of the bad cultivation of the land, or the want of tenant right, but rather of a lawless con federation to bring about a reduction of rents.—(llear, hear.) Government was bound to put down that system of terrorism by the strong arm of the law, and the House and the country might depend upon it, no concession would be made to those who sought to attain extravagant ends by the force of threats and outrages.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. GRATTAN hoped the discussion of this ques tion would not be stopped short to-night, but that it would be gone into fully, and without a moment's erd delay.—(Hear, hear.) No doubt the outrages referred Home efre to by the Right Hon. Secretary of State for h Department were not traceable directly to the absence of tenant right in Ireland, but in some measure they wore, for had the landlords abstained from driving out their b et ter feeling tenants, like beasts, from off the la nd, a would have prevailed amongst the people. was beside the question; what they were But that ew discussing was the subject of tenant right, and he was u as r a e t ly ie loss to understand why it was to be refuesxedp.ense ef hi a labour who had improved an estat e at the some compensation when and capital was entitled to his landlord mad© him surrender his holding. Well , then, that was this Bill demanded. er t a t n he and if Government were really r prosperity of Ireland, h was anxious sat aloss t t o o restore understand d why they should f ee t themselves called upon to oppose it.—(llear, bear." He attributed many of th e ev il s which prevailed in Ireland to absenteeism; fine estates w ere destroyed b y the ne g lect of their proprietors, for the lar ge landlords had too often abandoned their d uty and ft their tenantry to the mercy of middlemen, and The consecrience was the tenantry became careless of existence, and banded themselves against law and order. _(llear.) Hence arose the dreadful evictions which had so recently occurred, and which had brought so much discredit upon thelandlords of Ireland generally. It was, however, the absentees who were responsible for the consequences, and unless the House wished to wit ness a recurrence of such terrible scenes, they would not hesitate to give their consent to some measure of this sorts—(Hear.) The lion. Gentleman then proceeded to attack the absentee landlords of Ireland as the cause of much of the evil under which that country was suffering, and recommended that the Duke of Devonshire, the ' Duke of Buckingham, Earl Fitzwilliam, the Marquis of Lansdowne, and Lord Palmerston, should be all " field up." For his parr. he would put them up to auction, and et thew. There wouhi suusu in tLj~v There was none in exporting the able• bodied pente ivya ; of Ir,ip T ,d to America and the Briti , l^, coloni"• easy enough for the bight Hun. Baron.er, (Sir H• :to tell him that coercion s h ou ld b e h a d recourse to idicillges (Mr. Grattan) was as m uc h opposed the Pro which wore now throwing Ireland into so great an ex citement as any man could be; but he bad no hesitation whatever in telling the Right Hon. Gentleman that if he resorted to coercion he would find it to signally fail. It was easy also to say that the Irish people were a nation of assassins and murderers. He denied the assertion. It was no such thing. It is you (exclaimed the Hon. Members shaking his finger towards the Ministerial benches) —it is ; you who are the murderers and assassins —the murderers and assassins of their reputation; it is you who have scarcely left us anything worth the retaining. The Honourable Member next complained of the operation and effects of the Encumbered Estates Act. That measure was dispossessing the great mass of the landlords of Ireland; and the class substituted fur them was composed of shop keepers, shoemakers, tobacconists, and other tradesmen, with their 3,0001. or 4,0004 a piece. Regarding the Bill of his Hon, Friend as a palliative fur the existing state of things in Ireland, he thought the House of Commons would exhibit but little wisdom it they rejected it with scorn. It was a rational, a proper, and a reasonable measure; its principle was a principle of justice, and therefore of peace; and he earnestly called upon the House not to let that opportunity slip of performing an act of justice to the Irish people. Mr. HUME administered a reproof to Mr. Grattan for the reckless manner in which he had charged the evils of Ireland upon the present Government. He also condemned the one-sided view of the case as between landlords and tenants which was placed before the public at tenant-right meetings in Ireland. Surely there were Come gentlemen iu the House who were capable of ex plaining what it was the Irish people wanted, and what it was their landlords objected to.—(Cries of Hear, hear.") Ever since ho had known Ireland she had been in a most unfortunate state from misrule, and he had lately been in hopes that she was getting better; but it appeared that the Hon. Gentleman now complained of a new set of proprietors coming in with their 2,0001. and 3,000/. a-piece, and chat they were buying the lauds which formerly lay almost useless, and applying their capital to their cultivation and improvement. This the Hon. Member complained of as a robbery and an injus tice.—(fa laugh.) Why, if anything were calculated to regenerate Ireland, surely it was toe introduction into that country of men having capital to employ labour.— (Hear, hear.) That was the very thing Ireland re quired. The Lion. Member complained, too, that the people were being driven away; but if there were more men in Ireland than could find employment it was manifestly for the benefis of the labourers themselves that the surplus should leave Ireland. In his (Mr. Hume's) opinion the whole principle of tenant right, as understood in Indeed, was a principle of communism— no other than la propriete c'est val. They ought to know what was the principle of the Hon. Gentleinan'e motion--what it would lead to if it was followed out— whether it would lead to the destruction of that properly which was the origin of all society. It would he impos sible to propose any plan of tenant right which would be applicable to the whole of Ireland any more than to the whole of England. The proprietor of land and the man who sought to hire it should be left at perfect freedom to make their own terms with each ether. Mr. ROCHE complained that the Government had done nothing to elucidate the question. The greatest curse that could betel a country was to be afflicted in times of distress with a Government which either could not or would not assist it. Nothing could be more fatal to the true interests of the country than to have recourse ti the old, ineffective, arid mischievous system of co ercion, as was threatened by the Right Hon. Gentle man (Sir G. Grey). Among the evils that bad c for immediate redress was the present tyrannical law of distraint in Ireland. It acted most oppressively and un jusly in preventing the tenant from obtaining any credit in a commercial sense, without which there could be no prosperity in the country. Let them, then, assi milate the law of distraint in the two countries. Two years ago the Speech from the Throne stated that the law of landlord and tenant was in a most unsatisfactory state, and recommended its consideration to the Parlia ment. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ire land accordingly introduced a Bill on the question with a great flourish, but it was suffered to hang up day after day during the rest of the session, until at its close it was sacrificed with the other " innocents." He now asked the Governmentoben, if they meant to do anything with the question? Lot them know what sort of a Goe vernment they had for Ireland : if they did not know the best let Item know the worst; but let them not re ceive such a reply as that of the Right Hon. Gentleman, sehieh was in effect that he would let the Bill be brought in and remain before the House for a time, but that no further should it go. Nothing could be more unsatis factory than the present state of things; the country was becoming depopulated ; during the last year a quarter of a million of people had emigrate(delwromy Fork), Ire land to one port of the United States wone N and it the population went on diminishing at that rate, as there was reason to fear, the country would be in a short time a desert. Then there were those shocking and disgraceful murders which, according to the Tenant- Right Association, which was well-informed on the sub ject, arose solely from the unsatisfactory relations of landlord and tenant. The Government ought to see whether that statement of the Tenant-Right Association was founded in fact or not. Mr. MOORE said that the history of the present re lations between landlord and tenant in Ireland was this: l between 200 and 300 years ago the forces of Englund had driven the Catholic population of Ireland into Con naught, giving them the alternative of Connaught or hell, as it was said at the time. Since that time the landlords had scarcely reclaimed au acre, dug a drain, built a farmyard, or made a fence, for the improvement of the land. But the people, thus driven out to the un cultivated districts, had by their own toil, and with the sweat of their brow, reclaimed the howling wilderness; and as they progressed year after year and generatien after generation, the landlords grasped and confiscated the property which the tenants had made, and had driven them further into the wilderness, to again reclaim and again to confiscate. Was not that a great mural wrong, if not a legal one? and what he arid those who thought with him asked was, that it should be made a legal wrong—that some protection should be given to that pro perty which the toil of the tenant created. Whether the Bill of his Hun. Friend would tia,ve that effect it was for the [louse to decide; but every jut and humane man should be prepared to give the question special couside ration, and if he had any prejudices ornt, to give them in favour of . the weak and the oppressed. Sir J. YOUNG, on the part of the largo and influen tial class with which he was connected, and who la garded the relations of landlord and tenant as in by no means a satisfactory state, repudiated the interpretation which the Hon. Gentleman sought to put on the ques tion. He had been unable to hear the speech of the Hon. Gentleman who introduced the subject (Mr. Crawford), who had certainly paid great attention it) the question, and for whose integrity he had the highest respect, but from the mode in which the Han. Gentleman had ap proached the question, and from his preconceived no tions upon it, he was hopeless of any satisfactory solu tion of the question being arrived at through his means. The Bill proposed to give the tenant a part ownership in the land—to create, in fact, a divided ownership; and it dealt with a variety of interests which the Honourable Gentleman perhaps did II of mean to touch, and which it would be most unjust and improper to deal with. Compensatiou to the improving tenant was, he admit ted, a question of the deepest importance; but it was fallacious to base any measure for that purpose on the tenant-right of Ulster, which was supposed, but er roneously, to benefit that part of Ireland, and to be connected with its comparative prosperity. He was well acquainted with the operation of tenant-right; for in no part of the country was it more firmly established then in that with which be was connected; and from his knowledge of its effects, he pronounced it an evil to the tenant. For, supposingeihima solvent pea san t, h e , b y purchasing the tenant-right of the outgoing tenant, paid what was equivalent to a fine in money, the use and interest of which were lost to him during his occupancy; while if he should become insolvent, the fine, or purchase-money of the tenant-right, served only as a fund out of which the landlord was paid the arrears of rent which happened to rack renting be due, The only person benefited by it was the landlord, w re h n o t l a e n t dhilstvlea,ndensdo who e h tthheant,twhe tenant could the could not pay his of the tenant-right. The origin of th tenant quitted, paid himself his arrearsecs:LofotfhteenParnicte. seeettlers there, some right was the practice of the English trade, investing their savings two or three hundred years theback,w g m ag an ed ne i r n , in that they were making under the erroneous impressionnet by such means that a prudent investment. It was land e i n r this e engaged of the vario us but by the consolidatio n and simplification competent hand, such as t h at th e relations of landlord and t e nant were to be improved, laws on the subject by a hsawnear him (Mr. Napier of a Learned Gentle oaan was understood to be the Gentleman referred to.) They m i g ht as well say that the black-mail of th e Hi ghlands of Scotland had proved an advantage to that district, and ought to have been introduced into the Lowlands, as to hold that tenant-right was a benefit that ought to be extended to the whole of Ireland. Mr. SALEIR. Bid. the Hon. B aronet appeared to misunderstand the Bill. He (Mr. Sadleir) could not agree with him that it afforded encouragement to in dolent tenants. The lion. Baronet had given an ex ample of the operation of the custom in the no rth of Ireland; but he (M r. S adleir) could give many illustra tions of the state of things which prevailed in the south , where tenant s w h o h ad spent large sums on permanent improvements were treated as yearly tenants in the sales of the Encumbered Estates Court, and noticed to quit on th e transfer of the properties, all their improve ments being seized by the incoming landlord, and no comp , :imation whatever made. He (Mr. Sadleir) was bound to say that the Bill of his Hon. Friend fell very much short of the legal remedy that should be applied to meet the ev il ; b u t, never thetese, he freely admitted that its adoption would be a substantia il h m o p w ro ey v e e r mentto the existin g s t at e of Ireland. He asked, l rejewhe therct the it was possible that the Government could ' re• t the measure and do nothing in the matter themselves? c It that was their intentio e, then the best th ing they do would be to re j ect it at once; for con tinued suspense on the su b je ct would onl y have the effect of i ncreas ing that agitation which lay at the f oun d at i on of crime in Ireland. After the v ar i ous declarations made by the Governm en t, h owever, when o pposition, and after the various m easures w hi c h t h e y had given no tice of end even introduced while in tgr e a r ian power, it could not be possible that they wo u ld p e rmit another session to pass without introducing some one or other of that series of measures which they had on so many occasions admitted to be necessary for Ireland. As the law stood, all permanent improvements fell on the occupying tenant, the landlords being unable or unwil ling to expend money in that direction; tine tenant was, th , 7 , !efore, neturalla. attach , d to the land and necessarily telt tutus he in a sect of pertnerehip with the land lord. • it was eonsequentia tlesiratte that unmet alteration should take place in the law ee r,garilkA itepievemeeta, as it was not to be supposed that an improving tenant would consent to occupy land as a yearly tenant without some r,ecurity for his outlay. The landlords, however, were unable to grant valid leases in most instances, in consequence of the complicated nature of the tenure of Is.cd in Ireland; and therefore he (Mr. Sadleir) hoped that her Majesty's Government would give the House an intimation that the law of real property in that country would be put on a more rational basis before the close of the present session of Parliament. rein B. OSBORNE said if there was any reason more urgent than another why something effectual should be done in the matter at issue, it was that to do so would be to take away a claptrap which was used in Ireland to obtain seats in that House by people who had no practical knowledge whatever of the land question. He considered, however, that to support the measure of the Hon. Member was a waste of time, because the question that should bo dealt with was compensation for improve ments. He trusted. therefore, that the Government would do something to effect that object; though he was free to admit that they had very little encouragement to proceed, as regarded the fewness of the suggestions with which they were favoured, as well as the difference that existed between the views of the several sup porters of the measure. Notwithstanding this, however, he (Mr. B. Osborne) believed that the south of Ireland was emerging from the storm, in despite of the violent speeches of the clerical agitators of the north. All ti-at an honest man could ask, was compensation for impreveatents made; but the measure of the Han' Member was one for the encouragement of the theories of the Presbyterian agitators of the north of Ireland, whom nothing would content but an entire change in the possession of property altogether, giving the landlords only the quit rent of the soil. There was, however, a difficulty in speaking out upon this sub ject in Ireland; but, vevertheless; the Bill of the Ilan' Member was looked on with great suspicion. That Hon. Gentleman had gone to the south in company ' with the Presbyterian egitators of the north; and anything like the language used by them he (M.r. B. Osborne) had never heard. The i inguage imputed to the Cath oi° clergy was mild in comparison. It her Majesty's G 0 verntnent, therefore, koew their own interest, they wan' not let the question tide over this session, especially on the eve of a general election. If, however, the nouons of the Hon. Member for Rochdale on tenant-right wer, e , what he (Mr. B. Osborne) fancied them to be, from a" he could gather of his speech, he was quite certain the House would never sanction such communistic doctrines, as the Hon. Member propounded; for in no respect din they seem to him (Mr. B. Osborne) to differ from tho se propounded by M. Proudhon, Ita propriete c'est (Hear. hear.) He should like to see an honest tenant" right Bill—a Bill for 'be protection of the landlord A s well as the tenant, seeing that it was well known an Irish landlord might be considered very lucky who got a quarter of his rent. He should very much wish a sensible Bill on the suaject was introduce d; and the Hon. Member for Manchester had, he was in' formed, a measure of that nature prepared, which be now called en him to produce. Half the coercion 1 016 for Ireland arose out of the defective state of the laws regulating landed property in that country. To s cions alteratiun in that law he (Mr. B. Osborne)W" favourable; and he therefore thought it behoved her env jesty's Government to declare their intentions, for t e l i e satisfaction of the people of Ireland, and not to ab use° out the measure of the Hon. Member. Lord J. RUSSELL—I shall state generally the course pursued by her Majesty's Government in respect to this t question. We :wind, when we came into office, the certain Bills had been introduced on the subject , and these we took as the foundation of those measu r " which we proposed. In more th an one session s ° l ' e, ._, sequently my Right H o n oura bl e F r i en d the Secre tar y for Ireland introduced Bills having reference t o the question. One, at least, of t h ese was sent before a Select Committee of the House, on which were the lion' and Learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. K e ogh), the g a l: Member for Carlow, an d other HOD. Members. lux Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland attended that Committee with great assiduity, and his rep ort to me was, that after many discussions an agreement its to the clauses to b e altered and amended was arrived at. That Bill proceeded no further, though it was one whe, l ,' I hope, came under the designation of a " sensible" Din though I must say that this was no proof that it would be acceptaele in Ireland—(Laughter)—or this reason; I found it to be the butt of a great agitation in th !, country, and that the agitators on this question pointesa to it as the perfection of an infamous and oppressice measure. That was the way it was met in that countre':: After this peat excitement which had been raised en the subject I bad an interview with those gentlemen 'ad° advocated most loudly the rights of the tenants; and ti_r, result was, that it was quite clear the clauses of th e 13i i; would not carry out the object which they h ad A view, and that, consequently, if it was p ass e d into a law they would call meetings all over Ireland, and create a great agitation on the s ub j ect ' So far from settling the question, therefore, I found obi Bill would be the means of exciting th e country st ill more, and it was not pressed forward. It did not , follow however, that it was not a sensible Bill b e cause the ste rations that were proposed to be made in it by theta g entlemen did not, in my vi ew o f t h e case , deal fa ir Y e with the rights of property. Th e Hon. Baronet t , Member for Cavan has alluded to the sort of tenantsrign; that exists in the north of Ireland, and I mast " 7 tb r!.. I approve of it. But one of th e t hi ngs which those g e tlemeu wished to do with th e Bill was to introduce re with the force of law into the south of Ireland, where it has never existed, and where, if introduced as they Fi posed it, the effect would be to take away a part of I n tb re s ir a property from the present proprietors portion of the country, and confer it u pon other proved You may say that these are tenants who hav e , its land by the judicious expenditure of capital u r - •• a is and there are some I admit to whom this descripttei _0 applicable, bat the measure proposed was of land niart'ese generaticim its application—it was wholesale in its °P , e e ra the —and consequently it gave advantages , es idle and to the i m p rov id en t man at the bast pense of the landed preprietor, to which he red no sort of c l a i m w h atsoever. it, therefore, aPPeaula to me to be quite imp oss ibl e t h a t s uch a law as we co t consent to introduce on t h e su bject would not he rl3; source of pea ce f o r th e country, but, on the cotltill it would be th e f ert il e source o f ag it a tion and exe--e 001 te The Hon. M em b er for Manchester was o good of at g aw transmit to trie certain prep os iti ons , the result f bps observation, as a s um mar y of the means whic h suggof the themselves to him fur the oermatient improvecsent at to land tenure is Ireland. These propositions I s h e er t he Ireland wh ere t h ey were very much a pproved of of the members of the Government, by the law offic ers a tho• Crown, and by other persons of experience and , ach I city on the subject; but by reason of the causes w tba y have stated, they all came to the resolution that wawa would not lead to a better state of the relations 1 , wO O existed between landlord and tenant in Ireland. „ co to therefore, impo ss ibl e f or me un d er t h ese circuesstat'well, undertake to introduce a measure on the subject. tem per then, I came t o th e reso l ut i on — cons id er ing the twee of the people of I re l an d— cons id er i ng t h e extrarg e , it' of the proposition s th at h a d b een ma de—consid er i t n o r t he fact, all the circumstances of tne case, I " m i e n lair° . resolution that there would be no advant o „ oo ' on o° t ° clueing those m easures w hi c h a lone I could P r : - whet' this House on the subject. The question iti e di feculti' you come to legislate on it, is ono of infinite ai d in - The Hon. Member for Carlow said that we sli;`",tience troduce, by means of legislative measu res, c n" tea , between l a ndl or d a nd tenant in Ireland. I tell the se 1 amen , t but f tin t u ence of a state o s o ; it must arise as a necessaryActfeeling isw3sreoqmoted on the one O k r a " ciety its which good ford,pand on the other part w e too l d him. Be only desired that the bad laws which ha by the the eo n c d o u n c el t u o c i t t o h t e the tenant.lan Mr. SADLE IR said the Noble Lord misunders isted should be repealed. the Lord J. RUSsELL—This, however, lies at bottom of the whole question. You cannot produe buildingse by and t w h h ao e t r f e nge t r h ie legislation a feeling of confidence as regards agricultlift; property ; it must arise from tho satisfactory relati°o of the parties. Take the case of places in El i g ia where ltae nnd.n, t thereicnont:japotefiioroni perfect no conjointly toe r confidencee etlease, advantage of the other. Then, again, take h oc is cu e p a a i t e io u case of Scotland, where leases are of a more per e ly n e ° bist mercial character, and where the tenant enters n e ,"" e ste a t e from t cultivation he of a ea se e f rm the of pr l o B fit or to 2O bo ve d a e rs riv h e aving the land durieg that period. In bet orii, the parties are satisfied, If, however, no such c it bi deuce existed, I defy any Government to establish 5 t ae h t er jvalan vi ldil i i il r°dll:-t t ati t e : legislative measures. —(Hear.) But even it you froin u r ty , 14 w in the case th ere w ill be so end of the di6e t t he The custo m i n E ng l an d i s f or t h e l an dlord to ere c t the requisite farm-buildings. If you say, however, ins. NO' tenant is absolutely entitled to the value of the inlciag-d merits, you will give no voice whatever to the la „. u n ite in the matter. Suppose that a landlord wishes to et 50 five farms of 10 acres acres each into ono far n el i i", r 5 11 acres, will you say that he shall pay compensation }o s be the buildings on each of these farms, when eernae'keas will be obliged to knock down the greatest part o 1 70. in pursuance of his design? This is only o ne of tn where culties. In a country like Ireland particu larly t he t be li t i g ation is looked upon as a sort of pastim e of people, if you introduce such a measure, instead ' ne „ ca proving the land, you will have continual suits g°flort st under its provisions. In this s tate of things, thered tbst the end of the last se ss i on o f P ar liament, I st ate „oat', I was not prepared to introduce a Bill on the t a i s ell But it is asked—if you do not introduce a BOLL . ' st , to —why not permit the Bill of the Hon. Gentl e ', awl pass? Those who ask this question, however, 50.7,,0tire have no exact knowledge of the extent of that me. for or its object. But, if this be the case, wha t t ' v i e brini discontent would it not be, that, not only would r o f in no Bill ourselves, but that we let in anotharalel may which we know nothing of the clauses. The - I ',% si d to have clauses of some use, and as such we are "l e tba e t take it into consideration. But I cannot ag r a 2 a e there should be tenant-right throughout Irelaue e e eft . o o, with the Hon. Baronet the Member for le ci l ca a agree that, not only should such a measure sot b e now, but that whenever it is introduced it shar of a temperate character. h h er Mr. KEOGH said it appeared that thoegdoe Majeste's Government we re u nwillin g to int,rf, were measure of their own upon the subject , still tt l Y 7 the ri ellu quite willing to toy with t h at o f his Ho • F it sh o u ld Member for Rochdale , lest t he i r opp osition to when government in Ireland. In resent, the 0 prejudice their crime prevailed in Ireland more than at Ireland pr Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for ce a for posed u e t that the Noble Lord's Bill, then int ro ae d 6 ca b e t e P• th e repression of crime , should not be ae stioa o that a measure for the settlement of tne landlord and tecant should be introduced'oved all Who, then, were the parties $ 03 1 1 01 , 10 " Lon' t hoar.) coquetteri t!_lo qui;Aiun? The t CO,ti himself had else admitted that the gen. ,be nature ot clime in leelaed, was the uncertain Lrd, frail' and landlord question. The Noble r a f t er tenure • a gill Yet i the time he came into office, brought la THE SUN, LONDON,4% WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY l l> 1852.