The Sun. — London, England, 1837-11-29 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. not to support measures haying such a tendency.—( Hear, hear.) He could not admit that supposition. He had not taken as a Member of Parliament the oath taken by the Roman Catholic Members. But if the measures which HOUSE OF LORD S.—Nor. 28. The House sat at half-past. Four o'Clock. Mr. Tierney presented papers from the Tax-office, and the House adjourned during pleasure. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat again on the Wool sack at five o'clock. _ hey were reproached with having supported were injurious to the Established Church, he had violated what was a bind- ... ....... ____ ing moral obligation which he had imposed upon himself. That he could not admit.—( Hear, hear.) Although he . . . Lord DUNC ANON laid on the Table a Report of the Chancery Commissioners. Also an Order of the Council ap pointed for framing laws and regulations relating to the ac counts of the treasurers for the cities of Ireland. The Duke of RIC HM 0 ND moved for a return from the trea surer of the county of Middlesex of the sums of money paid to the matron of the New Prison of Clerkenwell, in lieu of a partner. The grounds on which he moved for this return was, that the House had always shown the liveliest interest in all affairs relating to this country. He was extremely sorry there were nct the means before the House yet of making uniform regulations of prison discipline throughout England. He was aware that the subject was under considera tion, but because nothing had been done yet in that respect, that was no reason why the law as it at present existed should not be obeyed. When the subject of this prison was under consider ation some time since, there was nothing so anxiously required as that its officers should reside within its walls; instead of that being the case they did not reside within the walls, although pri soners were taken to it at all hours in the day, and frequently in the night too ; and even the matron did not reside within its walls. Besides this dereliction of duty, he had heard, though he could scarcely believe it, that sums of money were paid to the matron in lieu of having a partner ; and to give an opportunity of ascei taining the truth of that statement he moved for the present Return. Lord EL LE NB 0 ROUGH moved for certain Constabu lary Returns relating to Ireland. Earl MUL GRA VE had no objection to the Returns. The Noble Earl laid on the table a Return of the number of Me morials which had been presented to the Lord Lieutenant in 1837, up to Oct. 1837, and the decisions of the Government upon them. In laying this return upon the table, his Lordship might say, in reference to Mr. Howley's charge, that not one individual to whom he had extended the prerogative of mercy had again been brought before him.—( Hear, hear.) He believed that would be found to be the result generally. The only specific charges of this description were two ; one had been disposed at the Donegal Assizes, where the party was found not guilty. and in the other case, the accusation had been retracted. Earl WINCHIL SEA moved that a humble address be presented to her Majesty. praying that she would order a Return to be made of all the murders and homicides committed in Ireland from the month of January, 1327, to the month of December, 1837. Also the number of the trials for murders and homicides during the same period ; likewise a return of the verdicts of those trials ; and also similar re turns during the same period relating to similar cases in Eng land. He was induced to move for those returns in consequence of an observation which fell from the Noble Earl (the Lord- Lieutenant of Ireland) last night, in which he drew a compa rison between the state of crime committed in the two coun tries. He believed, when those returns were laid on the table, it would be found that a very considerable increase of crime had taken place in Ireland. The Earl of M ULG RAVE said that if the Noble E 41.1 was correct in what he stated positively, he wes wrong corn paratively.—:( Cheers. ) ROMAN CATHOLICS. knew the extreme opinions of the Noble Duke, he had, with very great surprise, heard a Nobleman of his character propose to meddle with a question so recently passed through that House, and settled, after much deliberation and difficulty, by the concurrence of the three branches of the Legislature. Did the Noble Duke recollect how difficult - it had been to settle that measure? Did he recollect the great shock, he might say the convulsion, that was occasioned by it ? And the great political consequences by which it was fol lowed ? Did not the Noble Duke suppose that now to med dle with it again—to disturb and unsettle it after it had been so recently determined, would be accompanied with as much difficulty—as great a convulsion, and as serious political con sequences, as those from which the country was not yet quite free? The Noble Duke was an advocate of what was called Conservative principles. These were founded on a determination and resolution to maintain the great institutions and funda mental laws of the country, without excluding salutary amendments. But nothing could be more contrary to those Conservative principles, than to attempt in the manner pro posed by the Noble Duke to disturb a measure of such mag nitude, after it had been finally determined. If there were any voice of the present day which more than another ought to be guarded against, it was that desire of innovation, which perhaps arose out of those very changes which the Noble Duke was desirous of undoing.—( Hear, hear.) A measure was adopted after great deliberation, and after due consideration—it was carried, perhaps, with great difficulty—and, in the course of one or two years, it was found not to answer in every respect what had been anticipated regarding it when it had been introduced. It was found to be attended with inconveniences which were not expected, and then it was immediately said, "we must change and alter—we have not changed and altered enough —we must make other changes and alterations." That vs as not in the spirit of a wise legislation, and he wished to guard the Noble Duke from giving his counsel and support to such a proceeding. A measure like that of the admission of Roman Catholics into the offices of the State, and into an equality with all other of their fellow citizens, was a measure not to be tried by its immediate effects—not by a few years' experiment—not by what has followed im mediately from it.—( Hear.) It required the experience of several years to bring out its character and bearings—it re quired to be tried under all circumstances ; in times of pros perity and in times of adversity—in times of peril and in times of security—in times of peace and in times of war; and it was not by the experience of a few years—it was not by a short period of time that any real opinion could be formed upon the working and tendency of the measure.—( Hear.) He begged to submit to the serious consideration of the Noble Duke whether he was acting according to those priaeioles that he professed, and upon which he believed the Noble Duke wished to act, in so lightly lending his authority to disturb a great settlement so lately effected by the authority of that House and the other branches of the Legislature. —( Hear, hear. ) The Earl of WINCHEL SEX could not help addressing a few words to their Lordships, because he looked upon that petition as one of the greatest importance that had ever come under their consideration. It contained a clear intimation that a feeling was arising on the part of the Protestants of the em pire thatthose securities which were promised to the Protest ant institutions of the State had proved perfectly inefficient, and that danger did exist, if not throughout the whole of the empire, at least undoubtedly in Ireland, to every thing connected with the Protestant religion.—( Hear, hear.) During the time the Emancipation Bill was under discussion, he had endeavoured to impress upon their Lordships the no sity of withholding their consent to those concessions, firmly believing that, instead of giving tranquillity to Ireland, the very power they were conceding would be used for still further innovation, on everything connected with Protestan tism in that part of the country. Nobody could doubt that a Protestant Parliament had been established for the security of the Protestant institutions in Church and State. He believed that many Noble Lords were induced to give their support to the Catholic Relief Bill upon the firm and honest conviction that the opinions expressed by so many leading members of the Roman Catholic Church would be fully acted upon, and that the power which their Lordships were then conceding would not in any way he employed for the purpose of endangering the institutions in the Protestant Church of this country. If their Lordships referred to the evidence given by that powerful man who now wielded the whole power of the Roman Catho lic interests in that country, they would see it distinctly and clearly stated by that individual, that he never would propose to their Lordships, or recommend to their Lordships, that any measure of concession should be granted unless complete security was given to the Protestant Church in that country. Looking back to the evidence in 1823, he found that evidence delivered in these words—and it was painful to him ever to speak on this subject, for lie was afraid of offend ing the feelings of those who differed from him conscientiously in their religious opinions, and he would most honestly state that there was net a man lining who would feel more unfeigned pein than him if he gave any cause of offence to any individual Member of that House; but before he proceeded with the evi dence lie would remind them that dining the time that great measure was gohig through the House, he repeatedly deelar, d his firm and hci:est conviction, that the members of the Church of Punic would use the political power their Lord ships were about to concede to them in a very different way from that which was then professed. The Noble Lord then referred to the evidence of Mr. O'Connell. lie did not charge the rneniLers of the Roman Catholic Church who were admitted into the other House of Parliament, as a body, of acting whli similar views and designs, which he firmly believed 1 1 the great body of their Priesthood were doir ' s for the total de- structien, not only of the Protestant Chereli, but of Protestant connection with the country; but if anybody leoleecl to the opinions of the individual whose evidence belied just referred to, it would be found that he had repea• edly stated to the public that he would not he satisfied until that ez,•abl shmeat was overthrown, which he looked upon as an incubus upon the land. The senti ments which he had now the boldness to declare, at such variance with the evidence which he had formerly given, had justly caused an apprehension in the minds of the Protestants of this country, that that power would not only be • employed in the destruction of that institution, but would end in a violent internal civil commotion. Sincerely did the Noble Lord hope that that end would be averted ; but to avert it, there was but one course to be taken, and that was by the great body of the members of our Church taking every oppor tunity of declaring they did not concur in such sentiments. He firmly believed, however, that the feeling was spreading in the country which Mr. O'Connell was diffusing ; and he hoped in God it would not terminate as he had anticipated ; but, anxious as he was to extend the enjoyment of all privileges to all persons, however they might differ from him in . religious opinions—steeling as he did, that if ha belonged to the Roman Catholic Church he should use his power as many were now doing—he must :ay, that if a measure were brought forward for the ex clusion of members of that Church from a seat in Parliament it should have his meat cordial support. Lord BROUGHAM said it was with deep regret he had heard the speech which had been just delivered, not because of the arguments used by the Noble Lord—not because any. co gency of the facts, as they were alleged to be, which were con tained in the petition—but because of the high character en foyed by the Noble Earl, because of the well known consoien cious discharge of the:dutyMsvhich devolved upon him as a legislator, that would give his opinions out of the House, it would tell wiih double force upon the public mind upon a question which was fearfully calculated to do much mischief to the general peace of the country. Therefore it was that he trusted the Noble Earl would give to his judg ment the same scope which did upon almost all occasions to his feelings and his passions. Upon further reflection, and in the exercise of a calm judgment he (Lord B ) was quite sure that the Noble Earl would adopt a very different conclusion to that which he had thought it his duty to come to upon the present occasion. What was it that was asked in that year of the nineteenth century to which they had now arrived ? Was it not extraordinary, that having arrived at this, the 37th year of the 19th century, they should have a petition from, he must say, a respectable body of his fellow-subjects, he was happy to say a small one—what was it that they were asked to do ? Was it to take new securities from their Catholic fellow-subjects, because those formerly enacted had failed ? Was it that they were to take measures of precaution against an avowed enemy ? No such thing—they were called upon to retrace their steps. These were easy words—they were very vague and general, and at first did not forcibly strike the mind. '1 hey, however, went much further than appearances at first sight warranted one in believing. They meant nothing less than a Repeal of the Relief Bill of 1829 ; and then to make the measure more practicable and.. palatable, the Noble Duke who introduced the Petition wished that the repealing part of the new measure, should confine itself en tirely to the sister country (Ireland). England was to be fa voured with having a right to choose Catholics for their representatives, but iii Ireland, where the population was Catholic, to the amount of six millions out of eight—because that such a number of persons were conscientious Catholics—because they conscientiously differed. from conscientious Protestants, they were to be refused the right of choosing any one belonging to their own religion as their Representatives in Parliament. Not contented with this, but to make the measure more practicable, more palatable to the country—in order to make the people more in love with the House of Peers—Catholic Lords with their descendants were to be allowed to sit and vote,while the Catholic Commoner shall not even have the right to choose any one belonging to his own Church. Could you stop there ? No ; when once you turn backwards it is not at 1829 you must stop ; it is not at the last hill that you must stop and pause ; you must trace back you steps till you come to the year 1793. Nay, that would not do. You must take security for all that was done in 1778.—( Cheers.) But the Noble Lord said, Oh I we are not afraid of that. All that we are afraid of is Catholics sitting in Parliment. The Constitution of' Church and State will not be safe till they are excluded. He would grant, for the sake of the argument, that things were worse in 1829 than they were now ; did not that same ob servation apply to 1778, when there was all but a military revolution, and after that in 1793 ; then was the great rebellion. The Noble Duke opposite, whose very name could not be mentioned connected with the battles of his country but with veneration and respect—that Noble Duke, regardless of all clamour, and in the firm belief that he was doing that which was his duty to his country, had introduced the Catho lic Emancipation Bill—a Bill which, in his (Lord B.'s) opinion, had conferred the greatest benefits on the country, and the introduction of which alone would carry the Noble Duke's name to posterity. The country owed a debt of deep gratitude The Duae of NEWCASTLE then rose for the purpose of presenting the petition of which he had given notice, praying that Roman Catholics might not be allowed to form any part of the Legislature. The Noble Lord agreed most cor dially with the prayer of the petition. With respect to the oath to he taken, it was the firm opinion of the Noble Duke that it was totally disregarded by all Catholics. --(Cheers.) Nothing could be more highly creditable and praiseworthy, and at the same time so honourable to the parties, as such a straightforward course. It did appear to him, that as there was at present no security at all, it would be very proper for their Lordships to adopt some measure which would prevent parties from doing anything injurious to the institutions of the country. When he said institutions, he meant, of course, the Protestant institutions connected with Church and State, He (lid not mean himself to make any proposition on the subject ; but he would merely remark in presenting this petition, that he thought as re garded Ireland it would be desirable to frame some measure by which Roman Catholics would be excluded front the Irish representation. Vie petition was then read as follows :—" The petition of the undersigned—numb y showeth, That your petitioners regard the admission of Roman Catholics to leeisiative power as and at variance with Christian duty, with the Protest ant principles and character of tile British Constitution. " That peril to the Protestant religion, and more im mediately to the Established Churches of the United Kingdom, having been apprehended from the admis sion of Roman Catholics to legislative power, in order to obviate this danger, and as an adequate security for our Protestant Esteblisenta, it was, by the Act of the year one thousand eight hundred and twenty-nine, fur the relief of his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects, enacted, that all members of that communion should, previously to entering on their legislative functions, swear that they will defend, to the utmost of their power, the settlement of property within this realm, as established by the laws,' and also that they do 'disclaim, disavow, and solemnly abjure any inten tion to subvert the • present Church Establishment, as set tled by law within this realm ;' and further, that th - . 2/ ne ver will exercise any privilege to which they are or may be come entitled, to disturb or weaken the Protestant e eligion or Protestant Government in the United Kingdom.' That, not withstanding the security which this solemn oath was intended to provide, Roman Catholic Members of the Legislature have used their utmost exerti,us, i i as well as out of Pari ime:;t, for the destruction of the Church Establishment, cspecielly of that part of it existing in Ireland ; That they h :ve votrd for the alienation of its property, a measure characterised by his late Majesty's Prime Minister, its advocate in the House of Peers, as a heavy blow to Protestantism in Ireland ;' And that they have also voted for the subtraction of Church-rates from the re venues of the Church ef England, not scrupling to avow, as their ulterior object, that the State should withdraw its support al together from any particular denomination of Christians, leav ing all alike to the precarious maintenance of the voluntary system, but with the ultimate design, as your petitioners are convinced, of finally establishing the domination of the Popish superstition. " Your Petitioners humbly submit to your Lordships' Hon ourable House that the foregoing brief statement establishes, beyond all controversy, the two following facts 4 ' I. That, upon the admission of Romaa Catholics to Par liament, a certain security was intended to be provided by the Legislature for the Church Establishment ; " 11. That the security has proved wholly inefficacious. " Under these circumstances your Petitioners humbly submit to your Lordships' Honourable House, that it is absolutely necessary to devise some more effectual safe guard for our National Estabiishments. That scriptural authority, and the principles of the British Constitu tion, as well as experience, call for the total exclu sion of Roman Catholios from the Legislature ; and your Petitioners humbly implore your Right Honourable House to take such steps as may be deemed advisable, for the accom plishment of this essential object. " And your Petitioners will ever pray, &c." Viscount LORTON said in the observations which he was about to address to their Lordships, he was not influenced by the too prevalent spirit of party ;—a system of concession, under the futile idea that conciliation had been carried to such an extent, that a vast political power had been placed in the hands of a body of men closely connec ted with a Foreign State, and that Foreign State most decidedly hostile to the liberty, the religion, and the institutions of this great empire. Having been almost con stantly a resident in Ireland since he became a landed proprietor, and having witnessed the unhappy rebellion of 1798 while serving in the county of Wexford, and subsequently as a general officer in the Western district, it might be supposed that he had acquired some knowledge of the country, and the impression upon his mind, as to the pre sent state of that unfortunate part of the empire, was, that it was in a tenfold worse condition than it was in the lamentable period to which he had alluded. He might be fairly called upon to account for that opinion, and he thought he should have no difficulty in doing so. The political power granted to the Roman Catholics in 1829, had been, and still was, al together wielded and overruled by the Clergy of the Roman Catholic Church, who were almost altogether inveterate antagonists of every thing Protestant and English. And he could assure their Lordships, that never at any period was persecution carried to a greater extent.—( Hear, hear. ) It was erroneously supposed that a certain set of men called agitators, and one gentleman in particular, were the cause of all those disturbances in Ireland. He could assure their Lordships that they were but a second cause. The agitators were obliged to obey the orders of the Church, and most ardently and zealously did they carry them into effect. If their Lordships hoped to establish tranquillity and prosperity in that most unfortunate portion of her Majesty's dominions, they must first endeavour to ameliorate the condition of the people both Protestant and Catholic. Something must be speedily done for the relief of the Irish people. The greater portion of them were without any species of employment and in a state of positive destitution. In the few observations he was about to make, he would refrain from making any allusions to her Majesty's Government in Ireland or the Noble Lord at the bead of it, hoping that that Noble Lord would in future be more tender in his observations with respect to the Irish landlords; he would also refrain from making mis-statements with re spect to the outrages which had taken place, though it was only yesterday that he had heard of two fresh ones, tecause they had been brought forward by a Noble Friend of his so feelingly the night before that it would be a work of supererogation for him to say ally thing on the subject; but when th e El ect i on P et i t i ons came b e f ore Par li ament, their Lordships would hardly believe that such atrocities were committed in any civilized or Christian country and more particularly in a country so closely connected with this, he trusted, still great Protestant empire. He would not trouble their Lordships with more upon this subject, but give his earnest support to the petition which had been l a id on the table, and sincerely did he hope that it would be followed by numerous others from every part of the kingdom. Lord MELBOURNE was very unwilling to trouble their Lordships on this occasion, as he believed that there were few within the walls of that House who agreed in the facts stated by the Noble Duke and in the petition. (Hear.) But he could not quietly hear the statement of the Noble Duke, that the Roman Catholic members of that House, or the other House of Parliament, had violated their oaths by the votes they had given on some questions. That asser tion was founded on the supposition that the measures for which those Catholic Members bad voted were injurious to the Established Church, as their oath bound them THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 29, 1537. to the Noble Duke for the introduction and carrying of that measure ; and if the House we; e to go back, and to repeal that measure, it would be necessary not only to go so far as the period at which that measure was introduced, but they must go back to the period of 1773 and 1798. "My Lords" continued the Noble and Learned Lord), " I hope and trust that Noble Lords opposite will pause before they make assertions neither dictated by good sense, judg ment, or charitable sentiments, before they denounce their fellow-citizens, and fellow-christians. My Lords, when the members of the Government conscientiously bring forward measures which they believe the welfare of their country re quires them to support—if Noble Dukes and Noble Earls, and these petitioners, take a different view of the probable tendency of those measures, are these Ministers to be gravely charged with having forsworn themselves—with having broken the oaths which they have taken ?—(Hear.) My Lords, I have never read the oath according to the gloss which these petitioners have put upon it.—( Hear, hear.) I have never taken that oath as hampering the honest and conscientious discharge of Parliamentary duty. I never believed it was possible for Parliament to prescribe an oath to its Members, that should tie up their hands, and fetter their judgments.—(Hear, and cheers.) My Lords, in so doing they would be utterly regardless of Parliamentary duty. My Lords, were Ito admit what I utterly deny—but if I were to admit even in point of law that which I again say I deny in the most positive manner, that the votes I have given and the measures which I have supported, have had any the slightest tendency to bring them within the scope of the violent and strained construction which has been put upon the oath taken by the Ca tholic Members—l have heard on this occasion reference made to an expression of my Noble Friend (Lord Melbourne) that one of those measures was a heavy blow and a great discou ragement to the Protestant Church in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) But my Noble Friend last night in a manner the most satisfactory explained those words ; he read the words in con nection with the context, and the omitted parts of the pas sage, whereby it appeared that what my Noble Friend said was, that the contemplated measure might be temporarily felt as a heavy blow., and might for a time operate as a discouragement to the Protestant Church in I reland ; but that they would be more than counterbalanced by the benefits which the same Church would ultimately derive from the same measure.—( bear.) I thought at the time when my Noble Friend was making his explanation, that he was doing not only a superfluous act, but an act alto gether useless and ineffectual. I knew that the explanation would be forgotten, and that the misapprehension would sur vive.—( Hear, and a laugh.) And just so it was, my Lords. My Noble Friend only last night most satisfactorily and completely explained the misrepresentation, and this very night within 24 hours, the misstatement is repeated.—( Hear. ) It is possible—it is probable that the petition was drawn up before.—( Hear.) Nevertheless that explanation which came from my Noble Friend last night was open ; it was acceptable to every one—Petitioner, Noble Duke, Noble Earl, or any one here or out of doors, who chose to resort to the proper quarter for that explanation. But it was more convenient for their argument not to understand —( Hear, hear) —and they chose to take that part which made for them, and to omit with dexterity that part which made for my Noble Friend. My Noble Friend will not find all that passed last night, or even at the present time, will sa tisfy those who are determined to misunderstand him. He will hear, if it is any thing to his comfort, of a heavy blow and great discouragement to the Established Church as often as the Established Church happens to be the subject of con troversy either here or elsewhere.--( Hear, hear, and laughter.) I myself know the utter uselessness, the utter insignificance of all explanation and of all contradiction, although my No ble Friend had chapter and verse whereon to ground his con tradiction.—( Loud laughter.) Years ago expressions were used respecting myself, that I had said, " Little had been done last session, and less would be done next." That went over the whole country like wildfire. I took the earli est opportunity of contradicting that. I had always before known hew useless and unavailing it was to contradict asser tions of that description.—(Hear, hear, hear, and Cheers.) I then made a statement—it was printed—it was signed by me —it was circulated, not very widely perhaps—that I never had said any such thing ; that what I had said was, that dur ing the two preceding sessions--namely, of 1833 and 1834, there had been ten or twelve most important measures passed, the most important since the passing of the Reform Bill; and that they who thought there had been too little done during these two Sessions, might he quite well assured there would be less the next Session. Why, because the things were done—the measures were not to be brought forward—and such measures could not have been brought in. Well, the statement was re ceived, and they said then it was all very satisfactory ; but what then—why, they instantly forgot it—friend and enemy ; the enemy proceeded to ground his charge against me upon it; and the friend instead of denying it as I had done, admitted it; said it was an expression used in the heat of the moment, and argued in extenuation on my behalf upon it. Nov nd person could know the truth of that more or better than my Noble Friend (Lord Melbourne). Nobody knew better the real facts that the Ministers of the Crown, because they knew the measures which had been brought in, they knew the mea sures which were in progress, and which were undoubtedly to be brought forward at the commencement of the next Parliament ; but still they considered it was better for them to let all those things be said—to let all those charges be blaeught forward, though they knew their utter want of foundation—batter to stand by in silence and let persons—l will not say agents employed by them—but to let persons circulate those reports—let the reports run like wildfire over the country, they standing mutely and silently bye.—( Hear.) My Lords, I only mention that, to sley,v my Noble Friend how unsatisfactory it is to con tradict. The slander is always much more highly spiced— the one is more of the nature of vinegar—(Hear, hear)__ the other more oily—( Hear, hear) —the one remains on the palate—the other glides smoothly away ; the one passes over—the other runs its course until time enables the per son against whom the charges are brought to outlive and overcome the sting and enmity of the poisoned shaft. My Lords, I must say that I seriously and earnestly hope that the Noble Duke and the Noble Lord opposite , and those whom they represent, will apply their minds to the real state of the country, and that, speaking technically, they would cease to agitate what I cannot avoid designating as one of the wildest and most monstrous projects ever broached to Parlia ment. Fcr what can be more monstrous than retracing their steps and abolishing the good they have done merely on the disappointment of their expectations, on the ground of the alleged perjury of men acting under what they conceive a conscientious regard to the Oaths which they have taken: The Earl of MUL GRAVE rose to correct a misapprehen sion under which the Noble Viscount (Lorton) laboured, and which he had stated in vindication of his support to the in troduction cf this petition, and it related to the offences com mitted in the sister country. The Noble Viscount had stated his conviction that the outbreaks which were casually occurring in different parts of that country were connected with the members of one religious persuasion. Now he (the Earl of Mulgrave) would not be dealing candidly with the House did he withhold from them the fact that the Noble Viscount had formed a most erroneous conclusion. He had received a report of an outrage lately committed in the county of Monaghan,• communicated in a letter from a sti pendiary Magistrate of that county, in which it was stated that an armed body of 50 men had the night before gone about the place and broken into several houses ; that all the houses assailed were those of Catholics ; and that all the persons implicated in the transaction and who had been apprehended were Protestants. He would be the last person to found a general charge on an individual instance, or to bring an accu sation against any religious body, least of all against the members of the persuasion to which he himself belonged, and he would ask the Noble Viscount whether he was justified in placing those outrages to the credit of the religious feelings of one persuasion? He would adduce another instance of the impropriety of such a course. A sermon was preached on the sth of November in Manor Hamilton, against the system pursued in the national schools, and on the Bth of November the schools were burnt down. Now this showed the impro priety of enlarging on topics which were of such a nature as to lead to the possibility of their being taken in a wrong point of view. Since that period the Rev. Mr. Douglas, a clergyman living in the neighbourhood of the schools, had re ceived a threatening letter, stating that if he did not restore the money which he had collected for building the schools, he would meet with the same fate—destruction. He besought Noble Lords, therefore, not to mix up any attempt to violate the law with any religious feeling. Viscount LORTON, in explanation, stated that the reason he had not referred to specific outrages, was because he in tended at a future time to bring forward an innumerable list of such outrages. Lord MUL GRAVE said a few words in explanation, and the petition was ordered to be laid on the table. Lord E LLENBOROUG II moved for sortain returns, and the House adjourned till to-morrow. inconvenience, irregularity, and abuse had arisen by the deviation from the principles of the English and Scotch Reform Bills in framing the Irish Reform Bill, and that, in consequence of there being no annual revision of the registers, frauds of every species, had been practised. The petitioners also prayed that additional polling places might be erected. The Hon. and Learned Sergeant also presented a petition from Cloninel to the same effect. HOUSE OF COJIMONS.—Nor. 28. The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour. CHARITIES COMMISSION. Lord JOHN RUSSELL brought up the Report of the Charities Commission. Mr. HUME wished to ask the Noble Lord whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government, after having expended 200,000/. in inquiring into the state of Public Cha rities, to bring in any Bill which would do away with the necessity of instituting such inquiry again ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL.—The subject had engaged the attention of her Majesty's Government, but as the inquiry had been instituted, and the Bill originally introduced by Lord Brougham, they were anxious to obtain his advice and assist ance before taking any step of that nature. Sir E. SUG DIN objected very strongly to the recommen dation of the Commissioners to appoint any tribunal for the trial of Charity cases. He had devoted a good deal of time and attention to the matter, and was therefore better able to pronounce an opinion upon its impolicy. He should oppose to the utmost of his power any motion for the appointment of such a tribunal. Nothing could be more mis chievous than cutting out the great Courts of Justice, and substituting smaller ones, which could not possess the same amount of legal knowledge or experience. Lord J. RUSSELL regretted that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman having devoted so much patience and attention to the subject had not bestowed a little more of both upon the re port and recommendations of the Commissioners before he had uttered such a censure.—( Hear, hear.) The Report was then laid on the table. FICTITIOUS VOTES—IRELAND. Lord G. SOME RSET moved the re-appointment of the Committee on fictitious votes ( Ireland). He did not expect that there would be any opposition to his motion ; he would, there fore, not trouble the House with any observations at pre sent, reserving to himself the right to address the House in answer to any observations that might be offered. He moved that a Committee be appointed to enquire how far the intentions of the Reform Bill for Ireland had been de feated by the making of fictitious votes. Mr. HUM E said the words of the resolution were very vague ; perhaps the Noble Lord would explain to the House what meaning he put upon them? Lord G. SOMERSET had adopted the words of the re solution of last year. The motion was then agreed to. Lord JOHN RUSSELL hoped that the Noble Lord would be pleased to defer the naming of the Committee until to-morrow, as he believed his Noble Friend, the Secretary for Ireland, had some propositions to make to vary the names composing the Committee. Lord G. SOMERSET had taken the names exactly as they stood last year. The only alterations he had made were the substituting of two names for the names of two Gentlemen who were not now in Parliament. He would prefer that that list be now agreed to ; of course, leaving it open to the Government to make any alterations hereafter % , N hich it thought proper. Lord J. RUSSE LL hoped that the Noble Lord would still allow the matter to stand over, as there were some names on the Committee belonging to that side of the House who could not possibly attend, and it was advisable that a proper Committee should be named at first. Mr. O'CONNELL thought that there could be no objec tion whatever to the names which had been proposed to form part of the Committee from the gentlemen on the other side of. the House. With respect, however, to the At torney-General for Ireland, he was afraid that that Learned Gentleman had so much business on his hands as to render it almost impossible for him to attend. There were abundant materials for legislation, but he was afraid that if the course proposed were to be adopted there would be no termination to the labours of the Committee. Lord G. SOMERSET said, with respect to the Attorney- General for Ireland, if his duties were so great as to prevent his attendance, nothing could be more easy than to remove his name. After a few observations from Mr. SHAW, the motion was agreed to. Mr. Fyler appeared at the Bar and presented returns rela tive to the Contingency Fund, which were laid on the Table. Mr. HAWKE S presented a petition from an individual named Pat king, praying that a Government Engineer might be appointed to examine all Railways before being used by the public. SHEFFIELD WARE. The Hon. Member also presented a petition from the ma nufacturers of Sheffield, complaining of the frauds practised on them by the introduction into the market of foreign manu facture with illicit marks. SLAVERY IN THE COLONIES. Mr. W. EVANS moved that an humble address be pre sented to her Majesty, praying for a return of the number of children apprenticed in the Colonies under the Slavery Abo lition Law.—Ordered. HULL ELECTION. Mr. C. L ANGDALE presented a petition from certain electors of Hull, against the return of the two sitting Members. Mr. HOUSTON presented a petition from Paisley, com plaining of the present rates of postage throughout the country. Mr. H. FLEETWOOD presented a petition from the Board of Guardians of the Preston Union, deprecatory of the Poor Laws Amendment Bill. Sir E. WILMOT presented several petitions from parishes in Cambridge, praying for leave to introduce a Bill for making a road. On the motion of the Horn. MEMBER, an account was or dered of the sums paid as drawback upon timber imported for and used in the Mines in Cornwall and Devon in each year since such drawback was allowed. o ver now to had passed, carrying into effect the reforms suggested by th em , elections. This was a subject which affected,everY now came forward to propose their abolition —( Hear, in the Hou:e ; and as t!ie House ha 4 the he wa d e hear.) If the House of Commons took that course in one gulvte those fees, he thought that an inquiry ou& a htt,..° e ueraniitiee instance, it would very soon be called upon to take it in others. into the subject. He concluded by Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House to inquire into the eve=a.l fees on mthevitnrial°Orf rests 1 1 4 ht divided, when the numbers were— elections, and to consider how far lhe public inte For the introduction of the Bill 53 be I,rbmoted by an alteration of those fees. wou ld cod - Against it 159 Mr. WARBURTON hoped that the inquiry Majority lO6 prehend the fees paid to counsel. -hich at pre - GRAND JURIES. The SPEAKER said that the scale of fees w filled thc Mr. PR YME then rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill sent existed was settled who() Mr Speaker Onsoa 1 6 to but W C to abolish Grand Juries in England. In doing so he chair. The Slicker c , a.ild merely a. Point an I ; !c ent controverted had to beg the kind indulgence of the House, as he the feta un,'er the prov':i. Act of Par"a— was aware that the subject, though one of great and general irc. he had i.o further co , tr >lover these f es. portance, was not a very entertaining one. At times it becanbar . The motion was then agreed to, and the CJE a ' aittee BP necessary to enquire whether certain institutions had not out- pointed. lived their usefulness, and did not then answer the end for which they were instituted. At one time the Grand Jury system was justly considered as one of the great bulwarks of English liberty ; but now they were no more than an ap peal from the committing Magistrate. According to Lord Somers, who was high authority upon the point, Grand Juries were instituted to search out crime—to find out offences, and not as now, merely to put cases in a train for trial. In his opinion the rand Jury system was in many cases an obstruction to justice.—(Cheers.) In Scotland there were no Grand Juries, but there was a public prosecutor ; and when a judgment was given against any one, it was submitted to the Lord Advocate or the Sheriff. He was not about to propose the adoption of any such principle in this country, although it would be competent for him to do so if he thought it would do good. The Hon. Member proceeded to quote a variety of evidence as to the inefficiency of Grand Juries. Mr. Harvey Combes, the magistrate of the Lambeth Police-office (as we understood), had stated before a Committee of the House of Commons, that the Grand Juries as at present constituted were an impediment rather than an advancement to justice. The Recorder of Worcester (we believe) had said (before the same Committee), " after a man had been imprisoned for several weeks, it ought not to be left-to a secret tribunal to determine whether there was a sufficient case against him." He wanted no intervening tribunal. He conceived that in the present state of the Magis tracy in England and Wales, filled as it was by en lightened and intelligent gentlemen, such a tribunal was not necessary. If it were contended that it would be a saving of time, he did not admit the force of such an argument; if there were a gain of time in one respect there would be a still greater loss in another. The time of the Judge, would, no doubt be saved ; but then they would occupy the time of from three to five thousand gentle men during the year, and in this point of view, more of the time of the country would be consumed. But he would never admit that time was a consideration in such cases. P. - Mr. FITZROY move O d for ST-OFFIC a return of the names of al l ern co-' persons in the service of the Post-office a gainst wh e , plaints had been made fur having voted at the last . le i L the and 1. 7 Th0 had been dismissed in consequence. Dur n) , ot of last election at Lewes an individual in the ernployau of the Post-office had voted for himself, and in consequln;i: b e so voting he had been removed from his situation• l‘n_ we s had every reason to believe that, though this per s ra ca a a,_ to dismissed from his situation, the same rule was not made to apply to others in a similar situation who had voted forbe'ob.. did ,tes in the interest of the Government. to as l46 to tamed these returns it would be impossible forlihnitmil further steps in this case; the only thing he could do w s _ was, call for the return, which would show whether this ea n Wou ld • t ,isoiss as lie believed it to be, one of extreme hardship. I be a different thing if it was the general practice to,n for one all persons filling such situations, if th voted i e .. party or the other. But he believed there ey never sval i be en stance ,in which the authority of the Government ht, l e st so strongly and unconstitutionally exercised as ate the a; general election.—(Loud cries of " Hear , hear" be bed Oosition.) This was his conviction from what! owe seen in the public papers; and, at all events , if the its he moved for were granted it would set the matter in true light. The 6 ' 6 Mr. F. BARING rose to second the motion. -, f i s t a was simply this : In the 'year 1835 it had been founn_ ' great number of complaints had been made of partieartei netted with the Government and revenue offices haviligrres in the election of that year. In consequence of.a oo pondence which had been laid on the table of the Ho s ed , oo lice had been given to all parties that if they again "twhich matter for whom, they would incur severe displeasure, „ was was understood to mean a dismissal. The consequene;este. that every person against whom complaint was made °Li bel . for blished of having voted, was dismissed. The Hon. Member Lewes stated that he had seen in the public pape rs a l oot s. . of complaints against the different government dePa r „,! publis Now, he must say that as far as the accusations in I'l'oo papers were concerned, he was not inclined to pay lllc/2 r of $ attention ; but his attention had been called to a lette t o e , Member of Parliament, connected with his own COOT W ith in reference to these cases, charged the Government ens being guilty of gross oppression and canting and el : bring hypocrisy. Now, when a gentleman had the means of d s o c a ing forward these cases in the House of Commons, an, Cl lr. he made these grave charges and used this language, ` e t he Boring) thought that the Hon. Member ought to bril t lg ee to charges forward in the House, where he would be In,,, et k i . a llon' face. —(Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches.) iu,, p or- Member for Lewes had given the Government a fai,r, ° „r a rcl; tunity of meeting any charges he intended to bring in t- to ry, of this, therefore, he made no complaint, but, on the 0 11 !., his he would give the Hon. Member all the information 1" power. n tioa Sir C. KNIGHTLEY said that he could himself in e whi .ob an instance of the perversion of Government influenc e w ade had happened in his county. An application bad bee n t.o ffiee to the Postmaster- General to establish a penny r s " a tioe at Daventry. The Postmaster-General required ma n of to enable him to appoint a proper person. The clerF)lThe'oths the place recommended a proper person, but in three in o ar after another person was appointed, and the pe rson l el pointed was a young lady only sixteen years old. Th e c mended man wrote to inquire why the person he had reconiin:eted; had not been appointed, and why the other was °PP ° re' and the reply was, that the party so appointed liad hood commended by the Treasury. The appointment was a bei ng deal canvassed in consequence of the party a ppointed t was only sixteen years of age, and ultimately the appoin t in en tbas thus set aside. The young lady whose appointment vlersoa set aside was the daughter of a Dissenter. The nea t ". fir appointed of the name of Lee was also a Dissenter, an " - lent opponent of hit (Sir Charles Knightley). the Mr. F. BARING said he would certainly inquire in ° t he circumstances complained of. As he believed, hovvev e : r . h ' r e , state of the case was this—that the clergymanof the parw-poli commended a person who was strongly in favour of s lie doee tics of the Hon. Member, and that the Treasury thinkingappointe. who was not quite so strongly inclined to that way of s p. He could only add, that so long as the Treasury had these vie pointments the Hon. Gentleman was likely very often 1° similar grounds of complaint.—( A laugh and cheers.) „ lou se Mr. WARBURTON thought that in fairness the 'Joie ought to have similar returns of the election of 1835. in d e to see how many persons of this description had voted 1111 , bsa Tory Government, and whether the Whig Gover nmen" any M fair grounds for interference.—( Hear.) noD Y • r. F. BARING said the return would only give 1— thig ber of persons who had been complained against for 1° under such circumstances. Mr. WARBURTON thought such a return ought 01 be given. sur f Mr. G. F. YOUNG thought that whilst upon this s u r i os the House ought to distinctly understand whether, if 111°ileis is and authority of Government had been assumed by P a ar : d - clot the course of the late elections, for the purpose of 10 11 % - e riti the returns, such influence was used by direction or an`. o foa , of Government. With respect to the proceedings in cl u `., oaf he thought that Government should not lend itself in any to influence the elections, whether by preventing POP° i 0, voting or otherwise. Mr. F. BARING begged to remind the Hon. Gee d act ed that the Government, in acting as they bad done, ha" the under the distinct authority of an Act of P ar liatnen. l ' c d io 42d Ueo. 111., which declared that if any person 0110 0 to any way in the collection of the revenue should pre su „ n i l a b ° at elections for Members of Parliament, he shn'oing subject to a penalty of 5001., and be incapacitated for he any public office in future. Ae Mr. YOUNG -explained—He was aware of the rant of sof Parliament in question ; but was anxious to know whet',,,, - r th a such influence had been used as he had referred to tin'y sanction of Government. r ons Captain PECHELL thought it extremely ungen e ' A O' the Hon. Member for Lewes to throw out insinuations agalfter Government which were totally unfounded the latter had acceded to his motion for these returns. h i no t the insinuations of the Hon. Member been true, be v/0° have then been in that place to bring forward his motion'The motion was then agreed to. COMMISSION OF THE PEACE Bliiki n On the motion of the SOLICITOR-GENE 3 'd to r Bill was read a second time and committed, ancLordere read a third time to-morrow (this day. The House then adjourned at Twenty Minutes af ter Eigbt. They ought alone to consider how justice could be fairly arki impartially administered. He would 'not occupy the time of the House further than to express a hope that if his motion had no other effect, it would call attention to the subject; and that there would be further opportunities of discussing it. The Hon. Member concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to abolish Grand Juries in England and Wales. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did not know why the Hon. Member had omitted to do " justice to Ireland" by omitting that country from the provisions of the Bill.—( A laugh.) He believed the fiscal functions of the Grand Jury could not be better administered in any country than in Eng land ; but there might be some better system adopted with regard to their criminal jurisdiction.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") If the present system, however, were abolished, it would require at least 100 additional officers to carry into effect the law of the country. 'They would require a Procurator Fiscal, or public prosecutor, in every county, as they had in Scotland. The Hon. Member had given an instance of 1 - 3,300 persons, in regard to whom bilis had been ignored, but that was one of the best proofs of the utility of Grand Juries. For these reasons, he, for one, would not consent to abolish the power of Grand Juries without some good substitute being proposed. Mr. WARBURTON objected to the system of throwing out Bills without due consideration, merely,because their prin ciple was new. He could instance many measures introduced by the Right Hon. Gentleman himself, which were open to the same imputation. He hoped his Hon. Friend would be allowed to bring in his Bill,-and if her Majesty's Attorney- General thought a public prosecutor necessary, he could intro duce a clause for that purpose. Lord J. RUSSELL did not think the Hon. Member for Bridport had fairly represented the observations of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. If changes like that proposed by the Bill were to be made, he thought it essential that all the details should be fairly before the House, but it did not ap pear to him that the Bill before them made any provision or substitute for the authority which it intended to abolish. He (Lord .John Russell) nas not prepared to abolish Grand Juries, unless some strong case had been made out against the present system. Mr. AGLIONBY would support tFc motion of the Hon. Member for Cambridge, without pledging himself to its de. tails. He hoped the House would allow the Bill to be brought in, as it was evident that the House was not now prepared to enter upon a discussion on the subject. Mr. MAUL E objected to any discussion being taken upon the introduction of a measure like that now before the House ; he should, however, support the motion of the Honourable Member for Cambridge. Sir R. PEEL . considered it not possible to maintain the argument that they ought to refuse to allow of the introduction of any Bill with respect to which it was not probable that it would pass into a law in the course of the session in which it was brought forward. The mode in which they dealt with a Bill must depend not on any general rule, but on its own me rits. It appeared to him that there were no good practical reasons for striking out so important a branch of the whole sys tem of criminal jurisprudence as the Grand Jury—a branch with which the country was generally perfectly well satisfied. The Hoe. Gentleman having brought forward his Bill to abo lish Grand Juries, he might as well bring in a Bill to abolish Petty Juries. It would not be very difficult to make out a plausible case against Petty Juries. He might expatiate on the system of selection, on the necessity of their being com posed of twelve individuals, on the required unanimity, on their being locked up without food till they agreed in their ver dict; and if the lion. Gentleman, having succeeded 'in carry ing his measure, abolishing Grand Juries, and he (Sir R. Peel) his abolishing Petty Juries, probably the only part of the community which would receive this change with satisfac tion was that which was in the habit of preying on the property of the community.—(Much laughter and cheers.) Having heard the speech of the Hon. Gentleman, and seeing that no substitute for Grand Jurie's was proposed by him ; feeling that unrestrained committal by Magistrates would be a great evil, and that the necessary effect of this Bill would be to remove the check at present existing, and leave with every Magistrate the right of determining those of the Queen's subjects they would put on their trial in a public Court; seeing that the country was generally satisfied with the existing system, and knowing. how difficult it was to engraft on the present system that other of a public prosecutor, however well it might work in Scotland; bearing in mind these things, he should give his decided negative to the Hon. Gentleman's motion for leave to bring in his Bill. • Mr. W A KL E Y considered that the Grand Juries were a species of Star-chamber, which only served to screen Magis trates.—( Cries of " No, no.") The manner in which his re mark was met only proved bow deeply it was felt by Hon. Gentlemen opposite. He repeated it that Grand Juries were a species of star-chamber, by means of which the delinquen cies of Magistrates were protected.—(Cries of " No, no. ") Under the Game laws, he was prepared to affirm that there were hundreds of committals that would throw disgrace upon the Magistrates ; but they did not do so because the Grand Juries conveniently interposed between the Magistrates and the Petty Juries.—( Cries of " No, no.") He entreated of the House to give due consideration to the motion of his Hon. Friend, and in doing so to prove their inclination to pay at tention to the wants and wishes of the people. Lord SANDON, amid loud cries from all sides of the House to divide, asserted that no committal under the Game Laws came before the Quarter Sessions. The cases under the Game Laws were disposed of by summary convictions. Mr. WAKLE Y explained that committals took place for alleged crimes growing out of the Gaine Laws. Mr. PR YM E briefly replied. The House then divided. For the Bill Against it Majority —l7l LUNATICS. Mr. BARNE BY moved for leave to bring in a Bill to re peal so much of an Act passed in the 39th and 40th Geo. 111. as authorises magistrates to commit to gaols or houses of cor ' rection, persons who are apprehended under circumstances that denote a derangement of mind and a purpose of commit ting a crime. He proposed giving a power to magistrates to call in a physician, and on his certificate of a person being a dangerous lunatic, to have the'power of committing him to a lunatic asylum. If such person was a pauper, he proposed that he should be supported by the parish; but where there was property, that then, upon the order of the overseer, suffi cient should be taken for his maintenance. After a few words from the ATTORNEY-GENERAL and Lord G. SOMERSET, leave was given to bring in the Bill. HIGH WAYS. Mr. BARNEBY moved for a Select Committee to inquire into the operation of an Act passed in the sth and 6th years of the reign of his late Majesty, relating to highways in Eng land. In moving for a Committee, he stated that he was not prepared with any Bill upon this subject. After a few words from Mr. Parrott, Mr. S. Lefevre, and Sir G. Strickland, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he did not think the Hon. Member for the county of Worcester had made out a case for the appointment of a Committee. There had not been any keneral complaint against the present measure, and, in fact, only one petition had been presented complaining of it. Lord STANLEY thought his Hon. Friend had stated sufficient grounds for inquiry before a Committee, and, there- - fore, he hoped the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department would not oppose the motion. After a short conversation, in which several Members took part, Lord JOHN RUSSELL withdrew his opposition, and the Committee was appointed. RECOVERY OF TENEMENTS BILL. Mr. AGLIONBY moved for leave to bring in a Bill to facilitate the recovery ,of possession of tenements after the due determination of the tenancy. As this Bill was similar to the Jill which he brought before the House on a former occasion, it was not necessary for him to trespass upon the House, or to enter upon any details. He would merely move for leave to bring in the Bill. The motion was agreed to. FEES ON ELECTION COMMITTEES. Mr. HUME moved for the appointment of a Select Corn mittee to inquire into the fees on the trial of controverted T. COX SAVORY, Goldsmith, &c., 47 00' ' S • r London, informs the Public that he has fitted up THRE E ,er'' ROOMS expressly for the display of a lar. - e assortment of s T t boe Co rri ll - l ir l' SILVER-EDGED PLATED GOODS. b lie offers the! , ' ), 01 1 , 61 low but fixed prices, which have been so successful in drawl,4,/00, attention to the WATCH, JEWELLERY, SILVER ' n wh le i !' and FORK and Silver branches of his trade . N.B. A r, a- c - ioo' - „' containing a Detailed List of the Prices of Plate, plate" d e Ll ''' Watches, Clocks, &c., may be had gratis, or will be forty 4r - answer to a post-paid application . - _ _ ____ BIRTHS. a of tjje la dy On the 22d inst., at Linton Springs, Yorkshire, th e f p Hon. Lieut.-Colonel Douglas, of a son. do f On the 20th inst., at Breckenborough, Yorkshire , the la if , C. Hincks, On E, o a hter. the 22d s i q. nst. f , in dau Gu g ildford-street, Russell-square, 1111. Smith, of a son. Wil lislll On the 23d inst., in Avenue-road, Regent's-park, Mrs. Carbonnell, of a son. flu ddle' On the 23d inst., at Norton, Suffolk, the lady of Peter ston. Esq., of eira, at , Pr At Mad on the 26th ult., the lady of Geo. Stechh— British Consul, of a daughter. . On the 21st inst., at S MARRIED t. George's, Hanover-square, th_e,yiPtlf:' Richard Cattermole, 13. D., to Ellen Hamilton, e ldest ; 0 ' ijp daughter of the late Wm. Coningharn, Esq. , ° °' Gower-street. Few At St. Pancras New Church, on the 23d inst., M. n 00' Esq., 8.A., of Brazenose Collage, and Wimpole-street, to daughter of P. H. Abbott, Esq., of Brunswick -terrace. risterl, On the 22d inst., at Eastwood, S. S. Wig, Esq'' bar of P s law, to Ellen, second daughter of Wm. Weld - Wren, Escl" o f wo On the 18th Essex. 11, inst., at Lewisham Church , M r. George Secliase teo' Saham, Norfolk, t o Martha, eldest daughter of the late IL 13°' dieck, Esq. WO' to On the 25th i ns t. a t St. M a ry's, Bryanstone-square,. r" , : o e ry,. t. vale, son of th e l a t e ' Major Chas. James, of th e Royal i s t or o , to>l- Elizabeth, da ug ht er o f Robert Chenery, Esq., 13ryan Portman -square. DIED. ni w 'tt, f " ' ' At Rome, on the 13th of September last , Henry m-e 1 1 aged 20. C, ol' ae • Ge O or ri g t e h j e o 2 h l n st s i al n e st ;ja a te t 4 S t u h d L bu i ryh-tgrDorvae,ooll!isd.dlese%, Lieut. Ge orge On the 23d inst., in Queen's-row ,g Pentonville, gr iac e. ti , Essex,Luc O y n , t e ha l :!eds2to3fsdoll inst., o, k t e h dt e ohn l e a: Res Suffolk, r o. . John Rawson, relict of J. Rawson, Es lk q W : On the 23d • inst., at Stonyroyd, near el Halifax, ag °l e d 85' 31 r 5 , m aged th 7 l s lY . ' , of W ail On the 17th inst., Mr. Frederick William Labern , of street, Fitzroy-square, aged 24. ged 16 ' jj t0 01 On the 20th inst., at Camden-place, Lewisham, a of Croft, the the second daughter of Richard TUMICr, Esc' , of Or Or in China. El On the 21st., inst.., Sarah; wife of Mr. J. E. „f T. wick-terrace, I s lington. sop •' , .„_,, Lane, On the 21st inst., at Beech-hill, Surrey, Jou" mot Sergeant, Esq., formerly of Madras. anv i c a to S 3a In the month of July, on his passage from J , sex, 10 Mr. Samuel Goode, formerly of London, aged, V as ' king, F . " 9 On the 17th inst., John Lambert, Esq. , °' his 70th year. colin aa. 554 0 f On the 23d inst., Miss Russ, of Streatham- „,. vi dder, On the 21st inst., ag ed 78, Jane, relict of 1 ' sol l ' Therl 4 , A Dover-place, New Ke-road. &ro ue ' and On the 20th inst., at Brighton, aged 72, .. _ n _ill, Esq., of Reigate, Surrey, and formerly of No Bond-street. 141" D ~nondon : Printed and Published by_MUB DO 4;9° 1134 L 112, Strand, at The Sun Ofnee, No. 112, St,"l d. of Middlesex.—Wednesday, November 29, IRISH REFORM BILL. Mr. Serjeant JACKSON presented a petition from the magistrates, freeholders, and landed proprietors o f th e C ounty of Tipperary , praying the House . to make alte r ations in the Irish Reform Bill,so as to assimilate to the E n glish and Scotch Reform Bills. The petitioners stated that great SODOR AND MAN. Sir H. VERNEY then rose for the purpose of bringing forward the motion of which he had given notice, for leave to bring in a Bill to relieve the Ecclesiastical Commissioners of England and Wales from their duty of laying before her Ma jesty in Council a scheme for uniting the Sees of Carlisle and Sodor awl Man. It was a Bishop who first published a work in the Manx language ; it was Bishop Wilson who founded parochial schoils and parochial libraries in every parish in that Island, and he founded that system which it was the object of the House at present to extend to every part of that Island. • Ile desired especially to call the attention of the House to the vast importance of having a Bishop resident in the Island. The present Bishop by his exertions had procured the building of no less than twelve places of worship, churches and chapels; and he had founded a college containing 200 students, who were there not merely for the purpose of being instructed in the theo logy of the Church, but for the purpose of receiving the benefit of that liberal and moral education, which it was the object of all parties in the I-louse to extend to all classes of her Majesty's subjects. Among those two hundred students educated at the Bishop's College in the Isle of Man were to be found Quakers and Dissenters of every de. scription, and fur the small salary of 81. a-year an individual in that island could obtain a perfectly good education under professors from the University of Cambridge. To this college all persons were admitted without any test and the benefits of the College had been most sensibly arid practically felt by the inhalkants of the Island. Some individuals might object to the existence of a Bishop in the Isle of Man, and might think the Ecclesiastical Establishment of that island could as well be superintended by an Archdeacon and the resident Clergy ; but he firmly believed that no Archdeacon would be found to make such sacrifices, and no Arch.leacon would be able to collect such sums of money as the Bishops had at different times been able to collect with the most beneficent and religious objects.—( Hear, bear.) He hoped that all parties in the House would concur in his proposition ; for they were to bear in mind that those who had no representatives in that House, and who depended on the generosity of the House for an attention to their interests, had especial claims on the attention of Hon. Members. It was pro posed in the Ecclesiastical Commissioners' Report, to unite the Bishopric of Sodor and Man to the See of Carlisle. That arrangement would in a great measure deprive the people of the Isle of Man of all the advantages of Episcopal superin tendence. As Bishop of Carlisle, the Bishop would have to attend his ,duties in Parliament ; that would cause him to reside half the year in London, and of the remaining half year a great portion must be devoted to the diocese of Carlisle, so that he could reside but a very short time in the Isle of Man. He (Sir H. V.) knew that the lion. Gentleman who brought the measure before the House last session would wish to see the Bishops resident upon their dioceses, and to see them in a situation to promote the spiritual welfare of the people under their charge. He ( Sir H. V.) hoped that those Gentlemen who wished that bishops should be a spiritual benefit to their dioceses would support his proposition, and he also trusted that Hon. Gentlemen opposite, who were so much the friends of the Church, would assist him in retaining a Bishopric which it was proposed to abolish. In eulogising the character of the present Bishop, he was in no way influenced by the consideration that the Rev. Prelate was his own relative. But he could say, that now, at the advanced period of that prelate's age, no object was dearer to him than the spiritual welfare of those who were committed to his care ; and nothing would be more consolatory to him, at the close of his life, than to know that they would continue to enjoy under his suc cessor the advantages which it had been his laborious study to extend to them. Lord J. RUSSELL (who spoke in such a low tone that he was nearly inaudible in the gallery) read the passage in the Ecclesiastical Commissioners' Report, to which the mo tion of the Hon. Baronet applied ; and the Noble Lord said if the Hon. Baronet had merely proposed that the income of the Bishop of Sodor and Man, after existing interests had been strictly preserved, should be applied to the Archdeacon and Clergy of the Island, he (Lord J. Russell) would not have objected to that proposal. But to the present motion of the Hon. Baronet, which he thought quite unreasonable, he could not give his consent. Messengers from the Lords brought up some Bills which their Lordships had passed. Sir ROBERT INGLIS said that upoi the showing of the Noble Lord himself, he had deprived himself of the right to resist the introduction of this Bill upon the ground of opposition which the Noble Lord had stated. The Noble Lord said that he would not have objected to the introduction of a Bill which had for its object the application of the income of the Bishopric of Sodor and Man to the spiritual benefit of the island.—( Hear.) The question was not whether a new bishopric ought to be created, and he for one thought that there was occasion for many, more of them—(Laughter)—to meet the increasing wants.of the people ; but whether they would wantonly destroy one of the oldest bishoprics in her Majesty's dominions, a bishopric which had produced many saints, and a bishopric, in respect to which, France half a century ago gave instruc tions to her privateers not to levy contributions on the island. Without reference to the wishes of the people, in defiance of all principle and:expediency, it was pro posed to annihilate this Bishopric. He said without refer ence to the wishes of the people, because in the course of last Session a petition had been presented from the island numerously signed against this measure. Under such circum stances, as leave had been moved for to bring in the Bill, he hoped that the Noble Lord would withdraw his opposition to it, or that the House would overrule it. Sir E. CODRINGTON would cordially support the proposition of the Hon. Baronet, as he had on a former occa sion supported the motion for relieving the Bishops from their attendance in the House of Lords, because he really believed that it was most injurious to their charac ter and. usefulness as spiritual rulers to devote so much of their time to secular and political matters. He should be glad to see the Bishopric of Carlisle merged in that of Sodor and Man, and on these grounds he should cordially support the motion. Mr. F. SHAW expressed his determination to give his best support to the proposition of the Honourable Baronet. Sir R. PEEL said a Commission had been appointed to in quire into ecclesiastical revenues and duties, with the view to suggest such changes as might be useful. They bad encountered considerable opposition from those who had thought that no change should be made. They, however, acting according to the best of their conviction, had suggested certain reforms, and recommended their adop tion ; and the Hon. Gentleman opposite, two years after a Bill