The Sun. — London, England, 1812-12-19 00:00:00

Modify that measure, for 'which. be could see no reason. . • Mr. BENNETT then gave notice, that'be would take an-early oportunity of bringing this matter befor e the House. GRANT TO THE SUFFERING RUSSIANS• .• • The House having resolved into the Committee, 1...,' Xr.LuShington in the Chair, read the Prince Re- I gent's Message, as delivered last night. 1 . The CHANCELLOR of- the EXCHEQUER said, had L it not been for the observations made on the Mes sage when'it came down to the• House, and the dis .. :position to oppose its intention then manifested, •,, .he would have presented the proposition he had • 'now to offer to the sense of The House of Cotia- Thons, without uttering one word in its behalf.— , He hoped that reflection on the matter since, [tad e2on co ered the objections which then occurred to , - Honourable Members, and s'vould therefore be 'very short in the preface to his motion, and at the the same time carefully avoid the introduction of any topics that might lead to a difference of opi -Mon, where unanimity was so desirable. As a Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby) .., had spoken of the measure last night as one with Which he was previously unacquainted, it might he expedient to state to,. hint . and to the House Why it was so long delayed, and why brought for ward at that precise time. The question arose out of Unforeseen events, and could not therefore by , • possibility be anticipated ; it was formed on the recent most gratifying intelligence from Russia;— ,'„ gratifying, yet melancholy in its nature. So long as the French were in existence on the Russian territories, no aid of this kind could have been ad rainistered, because the presence of the enemy Would have rendered it nugatory and ineffectual, and it was not till very lately that the cheering information was received of their having been driven from the old empife of Russia. This state- Merit would, he trusted, account for the delay that bad taken place in moving a grant of the kihd he had now 'to propose; and since these grounds for pausing had ceased, no further post ponement could be permitted without injury to the cause this vote - was intended_to promote, • and the gain likely to result from a speedy attention to the situation of the people of our ally. Of this h e was convinced, that if Parliament did not lead on this occasion, they must be contented to fol low, for the feeling of the people of this country was bursting out in private exertions to relieve those sufferings, which every man must commise , rate, and be eesirotis of alleviating. But it be came Parliament to give the tone to, and not to be led by the public. The intelligence to which be bad alluded, as rendering this measure more expedient, was that of a subscription having liken entered into at Petersburgh, at the head -of which stood the Royal Family, for the relief of 'those Who had endured the greatest hardships from the invasion of enemy. •Till this step was taken, there were no practicable means of administering the comforts which this great country must wish to administer, and which now became easy of ap plication, through, the medium of the committees established for the same purpose at St. Peters burgh. In what manner the - relief should be ap plied, he was not at this moment prepared to state, . as it might be desirable to have further commu nication with our Ambassador at Petersburgh, to ascertain the mode that would be most eligible, useful, and efficacious. Till that period the suns would be properly vested for the intended object. With regard to the. amount of the sum, he was . aware that it could not be commensurate with the extended misers, - to the alleviation of which it was intended to be directed. On the other hand, it would not become the liberality. of this country to offer our allies, suffering in our cause, as well as in their own, a penurious grant ; suffering in our cause, as well as their own, he repeated : for the contest in which Russia was engaged was not one merely of usefulness In the common cause, but of peculiar deserving towards Great Britain, to the manufactures and commerce of which it ()Geed a brighter dawn and more extensive advantages than had for several years opened in •Europe.— Every day and every hour brought intelligence which imparted new energies to our trade ; and the' loss of the American market was now likely to be compensated by 'the opening of a greater utarket on the Confluent. The sum he had to propose was 200,000/. ; a larger amount than had ever before been voted by Parliament for a simi hr purpose, but which ought to be larger because the suffering was more extensive, and the self-de- Notion and heroism which had marked the con duct of those for whom it was designed, unexam pled in the annals of the world. Thousands, he feared he might say, hundreds of thousands, of these gallant people were houseless, living in the woods, under all the rigours of a Russian winter, rather than submit to the domination of a foreign invader. It was to relieVe this great and compli cated misery that he called upon the British House of Commons to step forward—to relieve it en tirely was jacked beyond ,human means ; but still it was a consolation to the afflicted to know that some hearts sympathised in their woe, and were . ready to administer to their wants. — From the habitS . of life of the•,Russian peo pie, too, this grant would go to a greater' ength, and do more service than might at first be apprehended. But even were it not SO,• 1 the disposition to assist them alone, would- from this country, carry satisfaction to every heart in :Russia, and tend to bind closer together those re lations between the countries, which interest as well as nature pointed out to be advantageous to both. This gratitude would more than equal our liberality, and on these grounds, without trespassing further upon the House, leaving the matter rather to their feelings and judgment, than endeavouring to persuade to the act ; he begged leave to conclude, • by moving, that it is the opi nion of the Committee, with a view to afford re-, lief to such parts of the Russian Empire, as have suffered most from the invasion of the enemy, that the sum of 200,0001. be granted to his Royal Highness. the Prince Regent. • Mr. PONSONBY declared his intention to - vote for the sum, but not for the reasons stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman, nor because the Message was couched in terms likely to invite the House to that usani.mity of sentiment-he uppeared to think , t tlesirable. The Message- called, upon them to af . f) ford the sufferiror subjects . of Russia " speedy and . • effectual relief." Speedy, it was now evident it could not be, as the Right Hon. Gentleman hart informed them that before it could be applied, GO 7 vernmentijnnst have further communications with the Ambassador at Petersburgh. It Was therefore -likely to reach those for whom. it was intended, just at the close of that severe winter to which therwere exposed without habitations, and after the period had expired, when it would be most bene ficial. Effectual it could not be, for that was out of our power. We bad not the means, if we were dis posed to be as charitable as some, or as.extravagant as others might think requisite. We were not rich enough to rebuild Moscow, and replace the peo ple of Russia-in their former state ; and to ima gine we could give effectual aid, was a visionary project. He came to the vote therefore on other grounds, for he did not believe that a single pound thus granted by Parliament, would go to the re lief of a single Russian. peasant. He voted for the sum, as a gift to the Emperor of Russia, un der the present circumstances of Europe, and be cause,- if refused, it would look like a coldness and backwardness on the part of Britain to assist her Ally, and an insensibility to her sufferings', in this great and momentous struggle. llut he did not like the form of this begging Message ; it looked like a hypocritical and canting appeal to charity, when other reasons might have been as signed for the gift. He took leave tb say,. that his feelings for the suffering. people of England and Russia were as acute and sincere as those of any Hon. Gentleman st'ho heard him, and if the question stood on the ground of taking 200,0001. froth the suffering people of .England to give to the suffering people of Russia, he would nega tive the proposal. Time privations of the former had, in some measure, been brought on by cir cumstances out of the power of any Government to controul, but sonic of their hardships had also been induced by the conduet of the Government. Who could look back for a few years, and not see that a conciliatory disposition towards Ame-, rica, manifested in a timely and friendly manner, might have averted the war with that country in which we are no engaged ? on the subject of Spain, a Noble Load (Castlereagh) had stated, on a former night, that Russia desired all our force to be employed on the Peninsula, as the best mode of aiding her (Russia), and effecting a diversion in .her favour ; and further, that the Government had accordingly applied the whole force of this country in that quarter. Yet they now saw, that without any any difficulty it was proposed to send 200,0001. to Russia herself, an'd not to the Penin sula. There was another subjectintimately connect ed with this, which he must'advert to. lie alluded to relief being afforded to the dist' esses of the ma nufacturers of England, which he believed Gentle men on all sides of the House were equally desirous to impart. He must, however, say, that an event had taken place some months back ,which - must affect the feelings of all, and particularly of those in distress. He would be glad to kuow what dispoSition bad been shewn by the Government to supply means for their generosity, by the aboli tion of unnecessary offices ? What bad become of the Sinecure Place Bill, brought for Ward by the lion. Gentleman on the floor? (Mr. Bankes).— The curtailment of this source of expense would have more than answered the present demand on their liberality. (Hoe it was said across the table, " the Bill passed in this House.") lie knew this ; but if there had been a favourable disposition on the part of the Government elsewhere, it would have been altogether successful. The state •of the country and of the finances demanded this ; but at the same time he was aware, if they nega tived the present vote, it would do infinitely more harm to the country than it would do good to retain the 200,0001. Russia had this great and peculiar merit 'with ns, that she not only fought for herself,' but that she was drawn into the• contest, because she would not be come a party to the Continental system which was directed exclusively against England.—. (Hear, hear !)—lf she succeeded. and opened the market of Europe for us, she would soon re pay us manifold the grant now proposed to ame liorate the sufferings of her Empire. But above all, her great merit and cause of success, was In being engaged in an unhought and unpurchased War ; we had not bought her into it. Peace and war were offered to her on certain terms of acces sion to' a systein, and she had chosen of herself to resist the terms of France without any engage ment, express or implied, on our part, to furnish money or contributions. It was a spontaneous act—she had nobly done her duty, and we would be committing an injury on the common cause, were we to skew any backwardness • upon the present occasion. For these reasons, he gave the Motion his support, and when- they were re flected on, they would slim that at least one Member of that House bad consented to vote so much of the people's money, not from want of feeling for the sufferings at home, but because he thought it would be the means of alleviating their distresses. Mr. 11.scrnItsT observed, that the Hon: Gen tleman (Mr. Ponsonby) was not happy in the topics which he had urged as being the motives for the grant in question. His first objection had con sisted in a mere cavil upon the words speedy and effectual. Now he apprehended that what the lion. Gentleman had said, as to its being-impos sible that the relief could be speedy, was by no means just. It certainly did depend much upon tile manner in which the sum granted would be applied, vahether the relief which it should afford would be speedy or not. But if Ministers did ap ply the grant in specie, as he supposed they would, then it must be a speedy relief to the distressed Russians. The Hon. Gentlennin, however, did not properly attend to the wording of the Mes sage. It did ilk say that the supply would be speedy and effectual ; but that it ought to be speedy and effectual. In order to render it effec tual, nothing, certainly, was wanting but the concurrence of the Russian Government, and of this there was no doubt to be enter tained for one moment. • The Honourable Gentleman had said that he did not suppose that one farthing of the sum granted would he be stowed on the peasantry of Russia, but that it would • all be put into the treasury of the Empe ror'. If snch really was the opinion of the Hon. Gentleman, he must also have thought that all the'suttis contributed by the nobility arid inhabi taats of St. Petersbureit, instead of being aunlied to alleviate the diStl•eSs of the peasantry,- wotdd also uc placed in the coffers of the .6mpire. The -Hon. Gentle;man had said he should vote for the grant, as a gift to the Emperor, for that was the object of .the Message; as he would have had the House believe. If the object was really and bona fide, a gift to the Emperor,' what would become of the rest of the Hon. Gentleman's argument How would it apply to the Peninsular war The negative which had been given to the lion. Gen • tlemariwas not from a mis-statement about the war in Spain, but to contradict his insinuation, that the sum which it was proposed to grant was in tended as a gift to the Emperor. The question was not one about the support of the war, but one which had for its object the relief of the .peasantry of Russia, who bad endured such extraordinary privations, and had been exposed to unprecedented hardships in be half of what should be considered as the common cause of Eur Ope. Neither were there wanting in the records of the House precedents for such a measure as the one in question. At the time .of the earthquake of Lisbon, a similar step had been taken to the one now in agitation. He did not wish to mix with the present question any thing regarding - the behaviour of Ministers in the mat -ter of the American war. It was sufficient for him to say, that as - far as his knowledge went, Ministers had done every thing in their power to wards the cultivation of amity between - this coun try and the American States. The last topic urged by the lion. Gentleman ,was, that Ministers had made no 'retrenchments in sinecure places, and therefore they had no right .to make the applica tion then under - discussion. The lion. Gentle man, when he 'urged this, forgot what had been said in the House during a former session, when a bill for the suppression of sinecure places was proposed. On that occasion the proposer of the Bill said, that he pushed the measure for the pnrpose of producing . the effect on the public mind ; for that he was sensible, that although the bill should pass, that it could not be the means ialsaving one farthing of the public money. The Right Hon. Gentleman then concladed his speech by repeating his approbation of the measure then under consideration. Mr. PONsoNBY said it was true, as the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke baw! Lim had stated, that he (Mr. Ponsonby) had expressed his belief that the sum, if granted, would not go to the Ibis sian peasantry. He. had said so, and he repeated it, for it really was his opinion. The Right Hon. Gentleman. shoultilitiVe considered that it was the duty of the,Rusgian Government to relieve the dis tress of the subjects of the Empire. Of course, if the sum which might be voted by the House was granted as a gift to the Russian Government, that Government would be the better enabLd to succour the distressed peasantry, who had suffered from the ravages of the _French invasion. If the sinecure places had been curtailed, there was no doubt that a sum might have been saved annually, which would be sufficient to discharge the interest 'of the .sum which the House was then about to grant. • _ . Mr. WHITBREAD said, that when first the clues don then under discussion was (to his great sur prise) proposed, .he opposed it, as a, measure high ly imploper. He had afterwards discussed the . waiter • privately with sonic of his friends, when he found, that their sentiments were in - opposition to his own ; yet he still found himself called upon to oppose it, as a measure prejudicial to the dearest interests of the country. In the first place,• it was ineffectual for the accomplishment of the ob ject which it professed to have in. view. In the next place, it was an act' of cruel injustice to the inhabitants of Great Britain. Under :these cir cumstances, it would ba hypocritical in him to give his assent to a measure, while he was con scious of impropriety.—Could he agree to the granting of such a sum, while the wants of British subjecis were crying out for relief ? If the House would consider the. extent of the country . deso lated, and the dreadful distresses of the inhabi, tants of that tract of country, they would be con vinced how: inefficacious any attempt must be, which they chnldinake, to relieve those distresses. They had been called upon to alleviate the mi series of those unfortunate Russians who had been obliged to take shelter in the woods during the rigour of a northern winter. But it should be considered that these unfortunates were now be- . yond the reach of all earthly aid ; and their suf fering had long ago terminated with their lives. Could any man —any Statesman—any Politician, for one moment suppose that the grant of such a paltry stun as 2Q0,000/. could be the means of endearing the two countries to one another, or be the meaus of cementing a lasting alliance between them ? He concurred with the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pousonby) in thinking that it was the duty of the Russian . Government to alleviate the dis tresses of the peasantry. They were distresses un • paralleled in modern history, and such as, he be lieved had never before been produced by any Go vernment in defence of a country. lie alluded to the conflagration of Moscow. y It ought, how ever, to be considered, that the Emperor, by con tributing to relieve the distresses of his subjects, curtailed his means for carrying on the war: The sum which it was now proposed to grant, could only be considered as a subsidy : as a subsidy it was mean, paitry, insignificant—as a sum to be granted by this country, in its present situation, it was extravagant and enormous. The war was now; as -had been truly said' by a Right Hon. Gentleman, transferred beyond the bounds of Russia Proper. But the inhabitants - of the coun try into which the war was transferred, would be exposed to hardships as great as those endured by • the inhabitants of the country which was the first scat of the war. Ile could not, therefore, see any reason why they ought not to be as much entitled to commiseration and aid as the inhabitants of Russia Proper. He believed that the imptession on the minds of the British merchants was, that the effect of the successes of the Russians would be to keep the ports of that Empire open to Great Britainfor a length of time. Other great effects might result from the resistance of the Russians ; but nobody could know what the ultiMate coupe quenee would be. It behoved the House to reflect, that there existed cases of the most trying.neces sity within the seas that flow round these happy Isles. He hoped that a little reflection - would convince doe House, that it behoved them to be just to the distresses of their own countrvmen, before they were generous to the inhabitants of other countries. He concluded by expressing his 'disapprobation of the measure proposed, and de clared that it was one to - which he could never consent. Lord CASTLEREAGH dissented most strongly from the reasons which the Hon Gentleman who had spoken last, had assigned for withholding his assent from the measure then under consideration. It was not the first inst a nc e in whi c h th e libera lity of Parliament had been called forth ; and it was well known how beneficial the yesOlts' of such liberality had been on e v e ry f or m occasion. The case, however, which had been cited as a• precedent by a Right lion. Gentleman, was not exactly in . point—he meant the earthquake at Lisbon ; but he would call the attention of this House to a precedent, which he doubted not would serve to convince the House of the bene ficial effects of such w4l-timed liberality. The House would, he stas sure, concur with him in rejoicing at the result which hied ensued 11'0111 the application of the sum voted for the relief of the Portuguese, who had suffered trorn the barbarity of the French. He had many opportunities in his official capacity of knowing how much the affec tions of the Portuguese bad been . gained, and how grateful they felt for the relief afforded them by the, British Nation. As to the speed with 'which relief could be at to the Russian pea santry,-that would depend on contingencies. But if the sum granted by the H ouse s h ou ld not ar rive in time to alleviate the horrors of a rigorous winter, it certainly'would be i n time to enable the peasantry to renew their industrious labours, with the return of a mild spring. was, whether the effects which have resulted from the calamities and distresses endured by the Rus sians, have not produced benefits of an importance to this country much greater in - Vahle than this sum which it was' proposed to grant for their relief For his own part, his answer should be decidedly in the affirmative. And he was sure that there were very few persons within the walls of that House, who would answer the question 'by a ne gative. It was not a case which was lik e ly t o occur again to such - a 'degree. It would indeed have been most hypocritical if the sum were ten dered under the name of a subsidy. It was - a suns granted for the same purpose, and to be paid' along with the subscriptions of the Russian Nobility. Nothing could be of more, importance in a political point of view, than the granting of this sum. It would convince the nations of. Eu rope, that the war of Buonaparte was one which was repugnant to the feelings of humanity,' which existed in the whole mass of the population of those countries against whit h this war was waged. The privations undergone by the Russians, and seeing relief (from plinciples of humanity) afforded for alleviation of their sufferings by ano ther country ; these were considerations whiclt, could by no means fail to rouse a proper feeling in the Governments of other nations. The effect of the sum sent to the relief of the Portuguese had been to raise lines in the hearts of the people, beyond the lines of Torres \'edras, the benefits of which would be found, if ever circumstances hould require, our army to enter into that kingdom. This measure would tend, more than any t,t:ier, to accelerate that pe;iod to which - thq alt looked forward; when peace should be - established on honourable grounds, and independent of • the will of the Ruler of France. The vote now proposed, he was persuaded, was founded upon every prig ciple of political economy ; but however a Ri g ht Honourable Gentlemen might differ with him in opinion, ,he could not help expressing his appro bation of the manly and independent manner in which that difference of opinion had been declared. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT lose, to state the rea sons why he could not approve of the measure under consideration. The Noble Lord had cer tainly taken that proper view of the subject which a Statesman should have taken. I-he was delighted to hear the Noble Lord talk of peace. It was a long time since he bad heard the word tit tered by any person on the ministerial benches. On this account he felt more inclined to give his support to a Government that had this great end in view, than he had ever done since he had a seat in that House. He could not big recollect, that Russia was lately in an alliance of a.very dif- 7 ferent description from the one in which she was at present; although he hoped that a sense of interest would prevent her from changing her present measures, and that in the end peace might be obtained. On this account he approved of the conduct of the Noble Lord. But when the dis tresses of the British nation Were so great, he could not find himself justified in sanctioning the grant of any subsidy for the people of other states. There was no prospect of ally economy in the ex penditure of the public money,. which authorised the Hoarse to grant such a sum for the purpose pro posed. lie was glad that on that night the House had . not been obliged to listen to any of the bom bast about the burning of Moscow. lie was no admirer of that act; neither did he think that the Russian Government admired it ; nor could it be Proved that it was an act o f th e G overnment. rince Kntusoff, in his dispatches: after what he called his victory, said he had been obliged to change his movements in order to save Moscow from flames. It was much the fashion in this country to panegyrise any act which tented to thwart 'the French. But for his own part, be could not find that that act was panegyrised in Russia, nor even approved. This country was always called upon to shew its liberality on occa sions of this kind ; but though we may boast of our generosity on such occasions, we should find that our example never would be followed by any other - nation. The Hon. baronet then went on to make some vague observations on the policy of this country spending sums in supporting emigrant loyalists from foreign countries, while these sums might be more beneficially employed in augment ing the salaries ,of many of the officers employed by Government. He concluded by giving his ile gative to the question before the House. _ . . - Mr. WILBERFORCE observed, that some persons bad said that the sum to be granted would not be any sensible relief to the suffering Russians. To this he could by no means assent. Ile thought it would affoyda very great and material relief to the miseries of the Russian peasantry. 7 —(Hear, hear.) It had been conceived that the sum was by n