The Sun. — London, England, 1823-04-29 00:00:00

creeiptisite; hewoUld dOliim the *justice to say, had not affected ' to misunderstand the hypothesis of al. de Vißele. His reply =was:—" If there be a determined project to interfere by . force ,or by menace in the present struggle in Spain, so convinced are his Majesty's Government of the uselessness and danger eeifettny such interference—so objectionable does it appear to them in principle, as well as utterly impracticable an execu. • tion, that when the necessity arises, or (I would rather say) when the opportunity offers, I am to instruct your Grace at once frankly and peremptorily to declare, that to any such in. eterference, come what may, his Majesty will not be a party." Thishowever was rather a parturiuni monies than any thing else. It was with these words that his (Mr. AP Donald's) mis givings began. Instead of the language used by the Right Hon. Gentleman, " come what may," &c., he should have expected him to have said to the Duke of Wellington, " lose no time in deprecating the policy of France as a gross viola tion of all the principles of international law. Consider it as • directed against all civil rights, and as repugnant to every principle of justice, and in whatever councils these principles may be adopted as those of action, from those councils will his MiStettty withdraw himself." In his opinion the Duke of Wel lington plight, to have been instructed to have negociated on the subject at Paris, where he would have had the French Go. vereurient to contend with, and the French Government alone. Above all, he would have directed him not to shelter himself under any thing that would admit of a doubt. He ought to ,have required the French Government to give way—to have retninded the French Monarch of all that had been done for hint by England, and to have pressed on his consideration how • little was required from him in return. He should have re. neinded the French Government that, under •certain eircum staeces, we were bound to maintain the Bourbons on thethrone, hut that those engagements must terminate if France persisted in her hostility against Spain. It however appeared that the Duke of Wellington, uninformed, and but half instructed, set Out for Verona. 'l'o have done nothing at Paris was an error. .The next error, perhaps, but he asserted it with less confl dence, wart committed by the Duke's going under such dr curnstances to Verona at all. He now came to 'speak of the Holy Alliance. Ile did not know whether it was expected that he should approach that august body with awe and reve rence; but he would be willing to do so when they reinem. bered that themselves were but men, and that those over whom they held sway were men and not things. eWhen they recol lected this, then, and then only, would it become a member of the British Pailiament to bow down to kiss the hem of their IMperial purple. Till then he would continue to designate them by a name which, from the English House of Comnions they must still be content to hear at least a little longer, he would call them. a band of tyrants. They Right Hon. Gentleman had vindicated the conduct - of Sir W. A"Court at Madrid. Before he remarked on the conduct of that Gentleman, he must ob.. ,serve, itappeared that things had got to such a pass in this country, that the Ministers of the Allies presumed to knock at the door of the Foreign Office to inquire about the Minister his Majesty might be pleased to appoint to represent him, not in their Courts, but in other Foreign Courts.—(Hear, hear !) —With the selection of the Duke of Wellington to repre sent this country at Verona, he found no fault, provided that the part which he acted there was such as it became him to act. He knew there were those who thought the Duke of Wellington too intimately connected Withthe,Sovereigne of the Continent to be fitly selected on such an occasion, but on the other hand he went to the Congress with his person thickly covered with the badges of the gratitude of those with -whom he was to treat, and his very name was a breathing record of what might be done to repress the gigantic strides of tyranny. No finesse, no artifice was wanted from him in the course of these transactions; frankness and decision were all they ought to look for but where were these to he found? Had the Duke of Welling ton carried but a tithe part of those qualities to the Congress; which had so often distinguished him in the field, that mu sacre might have been prevented which was at this hour going on in Spain. The Duke of Wellington had reiterated 'the queries of M. de Villele; but France ought to have been re minded of the treaty of Aix la Chapelle, which bound us not rto suffer Spain to be attacked by another Power, till she had first been called to our bar. The Duke of 'Wellington had - spoken as if France had to apprehend an attack from Spain, and had endeavoured to comfort France, by giving assurance that Spain was not in a condition to make any serious attack. The ignorance of the Duke of Wellington with respect to the reteestione between France and Spain, he considered to have been ill got up, as a few days after he was found drawing a very nice distinction between the external relations and in terhal affairs of Spain. The course taken by the Duke of Wel lington was remarked. upon by M. Chateaubriand, in these terms :—" The Cabint of the Tuileries have not forgotten, that the principal motive alleged by his Grace the Duke of Welling ton at Verona, for not explaining himself upon the nuns firderis wan the ignorance of his Government of the transactions which • had taken place betw..!en France and. Spain, from 11120 to 1822. That objection was removed at die Congress, as it will he here, by the single observation, that the grievances of which France might have , to complain on the subject of the Spanish Revolution, were unfortunately of public notoriety ; and this is what the Undersigned will have occasion to develope in the course of this Note." He wished to recall the view which the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken of the sub. ject, He had described the case which France called the at tention of the Congress as " defensive," " prospective," " hypothetical," "contingent," and " precautionary." But never since England was a country had such an appeal been made to her before. What answer would the Ministers of Elizabeth have given upon such an occasion ! In later days, what would have been said to it by the Godolphins, the Somersets, and the Chathams ? He thought Lord Burleigh, in a case like this, would have done something more than shake his head, though a shake of the head from him was known to have been tolerably significant. Our Plenipotentiary, how ever, had scarcely shaken hie head, when the propositions of France came before him. He had thus expressed himself.— " Without adverting to those principles which his Majesty's government must always consider the rule of their conduct, in relation to the internal affairs of other Countries, they con sidered that to whatever degree either the origin of the Spanish revolution, the system then established, or the conduct of those who have since had the management of the internal affairs of' Spain might be disapproved of, any amelioration which might be desired in the Spanish system, for the sake of Spain herself, ought to he sought for in measures to he adopted in Spain, rather than abroad ; and particularly in the confidence which the people should be taught to feel in the character and measures of the King." He (I%lr. Macdonald) did not envy them their confidence in their King. They considered that an interference, with a view to assist the Monarch on the Throne, to overturn that which had been settled, and which he had. guaranteed, or to promote the establishment of any other form of Government or Constitution, particularly by force, would only place that Monarch in a false position, and prevent him from looking to the internal means of amelioration which might be within his reach. " Such an interference always appeared to the British Government an unnecessary assumption of responsibility, which, considering all the eircumstanceti, must expose the King of Spain to danger, and the Power or Powers which should in terfere, to obloquy, certain rights, and possible disasters ; to enormous expences, and final disappointment in producing any result." But this fine web was soon destined to be torn aside, and that rather rudely, for forth came the thundering declara tions of the Allies. On these declarations his Hon. and Learned Friend had done so much justice, and had with so masterly a Land laid bare their folly, falsehood, and insolence, that he would only say, that whoever read them must arrive at the same conclusion to which he had come. The language held to Spain was much, that it was proposed at last, as a matter of concession, on certain conditions, to admit her " to liter place in the great. European Fancily." lied that course been taken which he conceived the dignity of this country required to he taken at Verona, he might be told that still there would have been a chance of war. lie would answer, that this was a world in eomething must always be left to chance ; and he would gay, that the, worse chance of getting into it with discredit had been preferred, to the better chance of entering into it with credit. lie knew it was the belief in the best circles pn the Con tint:lit, that had the tone of this country been at first less equivo. cal, it was almost certain that peace might have been preeerved. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that if war must take place sooner `or later, he would prefer letting it come later.— Rut he (Mr. M‘Donald) would prefer never, to either sooner or later, ac i d be must contend, that by-the folly of Ministers the best chance of keeping out of it altogether had been lost. In pages 12 and I4,someexplanations were given. The Right Hon. Ge»tleman described the question at issue to be one so " deeply affecting the interests, not only of the powers imme diately concerned, but the world, that the Duke of Wellington ought not to leave Paris, without having placed in the hands of the French Government the eventual offir of bite Majesty's mediation." On the offer of our mediation, he agreed in the view taken of it by the Duke de Montmorency, who had stated that his Most Christian Majesty could not but feel, (and this the House ought to bear in mind through the debate) " that the situation of France with regard to Spain was not of a nature to call for a me diction between the two Courts. In fact, there existed no difference between them, no epccific point of discussion, by the arrangement of w hich their .re lations might be placed on the footing on which they ought to stand. Spain, by the nature of her Revolution , and by the circurnstencee with which it has been attended, excited the apprehensions of several great Powers." From the vacillation observable among the French Ministers, it was clear that much might have been done by this country, lied the Duke of Wellington acted with the requisite firmness.— The Government of England, however, instead of taking the conree which it ought to have taken, had sent Lord Fitzroy Somerset with the Duke of Wellington's compliments to his oil frientla in Spain, to represent to the Spanish Government tLat, to satiety France, they bad better give up every thing, even the-principles of their Constitution? To this communi cation his Grace had appended some abstract notions of what a King ought to be, which he thought it might he well that he should extend into a longer treatise, and get it disseminated through all the Courts of Europe. The _Honourable Gentle. man proceeded to notice the demands made on the part of the French King by Monsieur de Chateaubriand, and to com ment on the French King's Speech to the Legislative Bodice. Of that Speech it was needless for him to say much, as the Right flonourableThntlermin had saved him the trouble, by declaring that it struck directly at the root of the Eng lish Constitution. Portugal had had the spirit to protest against it, but this country had taken another course. The Vi.scount Marcellus had brought to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (he regarded this as an instance of great effron tery) a copy of the French King's Speech, accompanied not with such explanations as might have been expected, but with a formal demand for information respecting our intercourse with Spain. How had this been met by the Right Hon. Gen tleman ? Did he, on the spot, demand explanation ? Not he had had recourse to the old expedient, affecting to misunder stand the speech, and lea ing it open for a new construction to be put upon it. Though the word had given offence when used on a former night by his Hon. and Learned Friend, he would say that to him this appeared to be nothing less than " truck ling." Why, after such a document had been received, were we to go drawling to the Court of the Tuileries with a tender of a double construction, and of again using our good offices with Spain. He now came to notice the attempts which had been made to procure the_ submission of the weaker to the stronger Power. It was one thing to arbitrate between two parties, and another to use our good offices all on one side. It appeared that we were " suggesting to Spain, in a tone of friendly.coun sel, alterations similar to those which France was proposing as the alternative of hostilities." This was the part which Sir Wm. A'Court was instructed to act. The answer which he received from M. San Miguel was that which a Patriot Minister might be expected to give. lie could consent to make no alte rations in the Constitution, but he broke out into some excla mations against the conduct of the French Government. Were it not that nothing should occur to dim the lustre of the French RevolUtion, might he not also have broken out into exclama. tions against that false *lend who still continued to tease the Spanish Government into making concessions to an imperious enemy ? It was in September that'Sir 'Wm. A'Court first un derstood what the demands of the French Government w. re ? Chateaubriand• had 'then somehow got the Bidassoa into his head. It had, perhaps, been brought to his thoughts in some tale, like that mentioned of the river Jordan being brought to baptize the young Napoleon. It was represented that King Ferdinand was to cross the Bidassoa to throw himself into the arms of the Duke d'Angouleme at the head of 100,000 men. He strongly censured the grounds on which it had been at tempted toinduce the Spaniards to alter their Constitu tion. The French Government hail intimated, that with a prospect of concession they might suspend their arma ments, but that they might not be amused by mere assur ances, their preparations must continue without intermission.— The Hon. Gentleman described other parts of the negotiation, the answer given by M. de San Miguel with respect to the demands of France, and his statement that if negociations were entered into, lw would not be the person to negociate.— This answer proved that the Spanish Government bad not been fouled by the professions of 1 mance, though our Ambassador had been. The demand on the part of France, that the person of the King should be placed in safety, considering the uniform temper and forbearance of the Spanish people, was little better than an insult. By the Constitution of Spain, the person of the King was inviolable, and therefore the demand was wine cessary. ' But while concessions were required from Spain, did we find that anything of the kind had been suggested to France ? Had, she , been requested to withdraw her army of observation, merely for decency's sake, but a few miles from the Spanish frontier ? This had not been done, but the propriety of maintaining that army of observa tion had been recpgnized by the Right Honourable Gentle man who had pronounced it to be the best antidote for check ing the contagion supposed to 'exist in Spain. Enough was known of the good offices of this country towards France, but where should we find that similar good offices had been rendered to Spain. When France decided for war there might have been some feeling of apprehension on the part of France, some drawback on her exertions, had it not been removed, by the Right Honourable Gentleman after the House had sepa rated for the Easter recess, setting down to pledge this country to a state of neutrality. He had now done with these documents. Would to God they had never found a place in the archives of the country !—He would suppose a case—that of an Administration hostile to all liberal institu tions--that they were in the highest degree friendly to France— how could there be a measure devised by the ingenuity of man by which the interests of that country could be better served than they were by those taken by his Majesty's Ministers in the late transactions ? (Hear, hear, hear )—'ll 7 liat ever con tempt might be expressed for the French Ministry, they could not be charted with duplicity, except indeed with respect to Portugal. But could any man not see the quizzing, that persiflage as it was called, that pervaded the whole of their proceedings ? Assurances they gave, it was true. They tell its, that should they succeed, the Crown of Spain should he respected in the person of the King. Joseph Buonoparte was King of Spain, and his brother Napoleon took a simi larly friendly interest with the present Monarch of France in the affairs of Spain. The Right Honourable Gentleman said the possession of' Spain by France could be of no consequence now that the former had lost her colonies ; he begged par don, he believed it was the Honourable Member fort Hert fordshire who had said so : he would ask, was it meant to say that the possession of the whole line of coast from Antwerp to Gibraltar, where the Austrian dominions might be said now to commence, was not an object worthy the serious consideration of this country ? Look to Ireland. It was only a few evenings. since that an Hon. Member assured the House that there were five millions of the inhabitants of that country ready to unite themselves to any enemy who should assist them in separating that country from England. Let it be recollected that there are discoveries always going on in science; that by a late one (steam) for such a purpose as that he had alluded to was wonderfully increased. What was then to prevent those crusaders from setting us right also but its impracticability ? Be our coquetry with those foreign despots what it may, their hatred of this Monerchy is full and Implacable. The laws of the monarchical principle were clear and intelligible. Might they not then say to us— Wait only until we can close in Germany the doors of these Legisla tive Assemblies which the people in some of the German States have had the impudence to demand—wait till Austria shall have finally united Italy in her dominions--wait till the Russian flafi shall wave over the whole of the Mores, and then, proud Islanders, yout turn comes next."—(Cheers.)—lle begged par don of the House for having occupied it at such length. What ever might be the issue of the question that night, and that question was—whether all Europe should become the prey of one vast military despotism? time result will have been produced by our conduct. It might be, that that which Buonaparte in the plenitude of his power was unable to effect, a Bourbon, supported by bigotry shall be able co achieve—if so, on our heads fall the consequences_ _ _ _ -- Multi Committunt cadent diyerso crimina tato, Ille crucent pretium sceleris tulit hic diadems. (Cheers.)—Whatever be the issue, be called upon the House to do its duty by stating to the King, that his Majesty's Ministe rs have not done their duty to him.—(flear, hear I)—lie should conclude by moving— " That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, to inform his Majesty, that this House has taken into its most serious consideration to papers relating to the negociation, which has been laid before them by his Majesty's gra:ious corn mend. " To represent to his Majesty, that the disappointment of His Majesty's benevolent solicitude to preserve general peace, appears to this House to have in a great measure arisen from the failure of his Ministers to make die most earnest, rigorous; and solemn pretest against the pretended right of the Sovereigns, assembled at Verona, to make war on Spain on account of her political institutions,. as well as against the subsequent preten sion of the French Government to deny that nations can law fully enjoy any civil privileges but from the spontaneous gran d their Kings ; prin ci pl es destructive of the rights - of all inde pendent States, which strike at the root of the British Consti tution, and are subversive of Ills Majesty's legitimate title 'to the Throne. • Farther, to declare to His Majesty ' the surprise and sorrow with which this Ho use h as o b serve d that His Majesty's Mi- nisters should have advised the Spanish Government, while so unwarrantably menaced, to alter their Constitution, in the hope of averting invasion; a concession which alone would have in volved the total sacrifice of national indipendence ; and which was not even palliated by an assurance, from France, that, on receiving so dishonourable a submission, she would dosist from her unprovoked aggression. " Finally, to represent to His Majesty, that,in the judgment of this House, a tone of more dignified remonstrance would have been better calculated to preserve the peace of the Conti nent, and thereby to secure the nation more effectually from the hazard of being involved by the calamities of war." Mr. S. WORTLEY said it was his intention to move an amendment to the address proposed by the Hon. Member, which should bring the House to issue upon the question, whether it approved or disapproved of the conduct of Minis term in the late negotiations.—(Hear, hear feelings were so totally diiThrat from those put forward by the Hon. Member, and so confident was he that his feelings were supported by the general disposition of the country, that he should have been ashamed not to embrace the earliest opportunity of declaring them in the face of the House. As to all that the lion. Member had said respecting the conduct of other Powers, and even of the conduct of France, there was much difference of opinion be tweets them. ‘fle felt as strongly as the Hon. Member could do, that the conduct ofthe Allied Powers for the last few years, had been strikingagainst the principles of our Constitution.—(Near !) With regard to France, he could scarcely believe what he saw of the course she was pursuing. He was convinced, however, that those who guided her Councils would be stopped in their career, and that the infamy of their acts would recoil on their own heads.—(Cheers.)—For Spain he had not the same fears as those expressed by the Hon. Gentleman, and he did not expect that she would be conquered and occupied so easily. He con tended that the course pursued by the Duke of Wellington at Verona was the true and proper one, and that it had been cor rectly said by the Noble Duke, that to have threatened war would have been to have put ourselves in a forced position— The question for the Government first to decide was, " shall we remonstrate and put ourselves in a situation to support such a line of conduct ?" In his opinion they bad wisely decided in the negative. When, therefore, they had decided for neutrality, their course was not to use violent language, but frankly to declare the principles upon which they acted, and then their first duty was to show to those Powers that it was not for their interests to pursue the course they meditated. With that view, he considered that the Duke of Wellington had ably executed his task. It might be 'that the Honourable Gentleman who moved the Address disagreed with him as to the policy first determined upon ; but when that policy was decided upon, the Duke of Welngton's measures were well taken, and his language well used, for that purpose. It ap peared that after the failure to deter the Allied Sovereigns from pursuing the course they had adopted at Verona, the Duke of Wellington was able, by the same means, to induce the French Government at Paris, to send to Congress to delay the presentation of the dispatches agreed upon. Subse9uent to that, however, they were undoubtedly presented. I he Hon. Gent. found great fault with the Government for its mediation, between Spain and France. But it appeared that they were called upon for such interference by San Miguel, and that he expressed himself satisfied with the course pursued by this Government. And he was happy in saying that it appeared to him that the dispatches of M. San Miguel showed that the spirit of liberty had given him a decided superiority in frank. ness and fairness over the writing of his opponents.—(Cheers.) The lion. Member then read the following extract from the dispatch of M. San. Miguel. " The acts to which I allude would in ,uo, wise compromise tha most strictly conceived sys tens of - neutrality. Good offices, counsels, the reflections of one friend in favour of another—do not expose it to the enmity of the opposite party, even if they do not deserve its gratitude; they are not, in a word, effective aid. Troops, arms, subsidies, winch augment the force of one of the contending parties. It is reason only that we are speaking, and it is with the pen of conciliation, that a power, situated like Great Britain, might support Spain, without exposing herself to take part in a war, which she may perhaps prevent with general utility."---(The reading of this extract was followed by much ckeering.]—This passage he took to be a complete exposition of the policy which had been adopted on our part, anti it was a clear proof that such policy had been approved by the Spanish Government. But the Honourable Gentleman complained of the manner in which negociations upon this point were carried on. But he contended that we did not advise Spain to concede any thing to the menacing demand of France. To accept the advice of a friendly Ally was quite a different case. If Spain knew that she had the means of resistance, she was right in her refusal to give up any thing. If she had not, as lie feared might be the case, he did not think it would have been at all deroga tory to ter dignity to have made the advised alterations in her Constitution. Upon the general view of the question, he had come to the clear and undoubted conclusion that neutrality was the right policy of this country. And he must ask the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, who had been pushing the reduction of our establishments as far as possible, and ad vocating the remission of taxes (and he was happy that they had been so far enabled to relieve' the people), what would have been the state of the country now, if we had remonstrated at Verona and armed in support of that remonstrances ? The condition of the people and of the country, must have,been very different from what h now is. It was, indeed, said they might equip a fleet. But if ever there was a war in which a fret was of no use, it must be this one. It was, there fon, idle of Hon. Gentlemen to talk of remonstrating, and `then following up such a course, by means that would mules our situation ridiculous and unavailing in the eyes of the world. For such a war as would be necessary to support our character, and to act with effect, he saw nothing in the present state of Europe which created a necessity. Even if France gained temporary possession of Spain, that would not be injurious to this country. It was a permanent occupation which would imperatively demand our interference. But we could not arm for such an interference with our reduced establishment, and there was no necessity for calling upon the country to support a large increase in our expenditure under existing circumstances. When the national honour, or its real inte. rest ,demanded such a sacrifice, he was sure the country would abswer with its usual spirit to the call. The Hon. Member concluded by moving an amendment for leaving nut the words after the first parag raph, and inserting the following— " To assure his Majesty of our entire concurrence in tne prin. ciples which his Majesty lies repeatedly declared, with respect to interference in the internal concerns ofindependent nations, and in his Majesty's just application of those principles, in the course of the late negociations, to the case of Spain.' " To acknowledge with gratitude his Majesty's earnest and unwearied endeavours to preserve die peace of Europe. " To express our deep regret that those endeavours have proved unavailing; and while we rejoice that his Majesty has not become party to a war in Which neither honour, nor treaty, nor the welfare of his Majesty's dominions required his Ma jesty to engage, to assure his Majesty that, highly as we esti mate the advantages of peace, particularly at the present mo ment, we shall be at all times ready to afford to his Majesty our most zealous and affectionate support, in any measure which his Majesty may find necessary, to fulfil the obligations of national faith, to vindicate the dignity of his crown, or to main tain the rights and interests of his people." Mr. T. WILSON salt, lie rose with pleasure to second the Amendment, concurring as he did in all that had fallen from the lion. Member for Yorkshire, and more particularly in that part of it respecting the conduct of Ministers in their prorupt and steady decision upon the line of conduct they had pursued in these negociations. He was sure that in these sen timents he represented the feeling of a great body of his Con stituents, and he was sure it was their desire as it was his, that his Majesty's Government should persevere in their adherence to the principles of honest neutrality, and to a spirit of concilia tion both towards Spain and France, by which the blessings of peace were likely to be continued and secured to this country. That the whole of such a mass of papers should give perfect satisfaction, or that they should meet with the approval of all the Members of that Mouse was not to be expected. But looking at the whole, his matured conviction was, that Mini sters had done all that honour, consistency, and firmness of cha racter required, and that they had thereby deserved the thanks of the nation.—(li car!)—And he must be.' to say that the speech of the Hon. Member who moved the Address, had not at all altered his opinions upon the question. He wished not to be understood as defending the conduct of France.—(Cheers.) — Ile could find no word less severe to express die feeling with which he regarded it, than execration. The invasion of Spain, and the encouragement given to the Army of the Faith to re cruit anti organize themselves within the French territory, were acts which no Englishman could tolerate. He would not trust himself with expressing what he felt upon this subject, because he did not think that they had any right to dictate to the world the course they were to pursue, or to call other na tions to account for not entertaining the same views as them selves. He had been sorry to hear, upon sonic occasions, the degree of severity with which foreign powers had beets ani. madverted upon in that House. He thought he might say that the most violent abuse had been descended to, such as to lower the dignity and the character of a British Parliament.--(llear I). All the purposeaof debate might surely be answered without that asperity and personality which had been so much resorted to. lie would not occupy more of the time of the House than of i to ) reds ik mat i t aty that in every view which he could take of the conduct such as to ensur 's e tlileinia p st i ej o s ba in tio t n h o e f se th l e ir c o o c u e n et t i r in y gs , a , s a n d s beenlie was certain would ensure them its support in case the national honour or interests should hereafter require its exertions. - Mr. 1101-IHOUSE was anxious to express his strong feeling upon what be considered the gross failure and degradation re sulting from the measures taken by his Majesty's Government upon this most important question. At the same time, he had to congratulate the House, that neither in the amendment which had been moved, nor in the speeches of the two honour able Members who supported it, had their British ears been of fended by a repitition of that language which had been spoken in another place, to the utter debasement of the British name. —(Cheers.)---They had at least spoken out like Englishmen, and expressed their abhorrence of the atrocious conduct of the tyrants of Europe in their attack on the liberties of Spain. The Hon Member for London had afterwards found fault with the strong language of some Gentlemen upon this subject ; but he did not know a much stronger word in the English language, than that of "execration," which the Hon. Member had lum self applied to the conduct of France.--(Hear ! and a laugh.)- -The Member for London had also said that the majority of his constituents approved of the conduct of Ministers in these ne gociations. Now he represented a large body of the inhabitants of this metropolis, and as far as he could ascertain the feeling , of his constituents, it was totally opposed to that of the body represented by the Hon. Member. He believed that they would be most happy, in such -a cause, to repeat all the mai. fices of the last war.—(Cheers of dissent.)—This was his opi nion, as far as lie could acquite information upon the subject. Ile did not mean to say that they would support a mere Go vernment war, for the recovery or defence of a particular pro vince. But if Ministers would go heart and hand into a po freedom of o of efr th o e l ts wo t r h ld ey a w ga o i u n l s d t polar the K s i u n p gr t ti li P e g r e tb w e o u f l r d e e not gladly make to support them.. The Honourable Member then expressed his surprise that the Honotirable Mover of the Amendment should have inferred from the dispatch of M. San Miguel his approval of the. conduct of the British Government. He read nearly the whole of the document which will be found amongst the State Papers, under the title,." Ex tract of a Dispatch addressed by M. San Miguel, Minister for Foreign Affairs at Madrid; to M. de Colomb, dated Nov. 15, 1822 ;" and argued, that instead of an approval of the conduct , of Ministers, it was a direct complaint and censure.. After this communication followed the Memorial of the Duke of Wellington ; and it was to be expected from the character of the Noble Duke, that he would have spoken to Spain the lan guage of independence and heroism.- Instead of that, it re commended the only conditions which M. San Miguel's dispatch ' had stated the Spanish Government could not receive. When it was said that the Duke of Wellington had a right to ad.. vise Spain on account of the claim which he had upon her grati tude, he would ask if the Duke of Wellington had no claim upon France ? Were not the Bourbons indebted to him for their restoration to the throne? Hie claims upon that ungrateful family were at least as much as upon Spam, yet no concessions had been advised to them. Tlie Hon. Member then proceeded to complain of the manner in which the claims of this country had been enffirced when Spain was oppressed with difficulties on all sides. Was this a time to demand pecuniary compensa tions, when Spain came gallantly forward in her distress, and said, "we find ourselves sinking, come and help us." Comb-1 tions too, were stipulated for the safety of the King. The King t They never heard an English Minister now speak about the people. It was all the King—that cursed monarchi cal principle—(Loud murmurs and cheers)—it was an accursed principle as the tyrants of the Continent had expounded it— (Cheers)—and that it was which created the misery and slavery of man. He had been surprised to hear the Right Hon. Secre tary say that the subject of Spain was not to be made a pro- minent question at Verona. Every body on the Continent' knew that to be the real object of the Congress. lie admitted, however, his belief that the Sovereigns separated without any in , tention of attacking Spain. The attrocity was too enormous, even for them, and it was left to be accomplished by a miserable in trigue at the Tuileries, at the instigation of a Corsican ad venturer, who made a bet in the 'Solon des Drayer:, that he would either drive the Duke de Montmorency, or M. de Vll lele into a war. The Hon. Member next described the feeling expressed on the Continent against the policy of the late Mar guts of Londonderry, and the hopes entertained by the people of those countries that the new Secretary for Foreign Affairs would not suffer himself to be surrounded by those who occu pied the anti-chambers of the Allied Sovereigns. He was upon the Continent at the time of the appointment of the Right Honourable Gentleman, and he could assure him that never did an individual enter upon office with more eager hopes and expectations, or with more good wishes on the part of those who looked up to his administration. Every where lie was told of the liberality which was to he expected from him, and indeed he had positively assured them that they had got a Radical at the head of the Government.—(A. laugh. )—Never had a Minister so fine ao opportunity of mak ing for himself a glorious and an immortal fame. All these hopes had dissipated, and the Right Hon. Gentleman had at last assured them that he meant to tread in the steps of his pre decessor. He believed, however, that the Right Hon. Secretary had not done as his predecessor would have done in this case. The Marquis of Londonderry would have adopted one course or the other, but the Hight Hon. Gentleman had taken neither. The conduct of this Government towards Spain had been like that of a man who knew another was about to be robbed, and -went and told him to put a little money or treasure within the reach of the thief, and that then he might perhaps escape mur der and robbery upon that occasion. It had been attempted to make a distinction between Spain as she now was and Spain as she was in 18913. But he could show that the circumstances ,of the two periods were not so different. The Congress of Erfurth in some respects resembled that of Verona. On the .occaion of that war, Russia stigmatized the Spanish nation as i A n i s a u ity r e g s ents ; Prussia joined France and Austria would have done the same, had she been permitted to attend the confer ences at Erfurth. Had it not been for that circumstance 7 Aus tria would have acknowledged King Joseph. ,When his lute introduced the subject of that war to Parliament, he was made by his Ministers to speak of " the Spanish nation, nobly struggling against the usurpation of France— that this struggle rendered her no longer the enemy of Eng land, but her ancient ally ; and that he had no doubt Parlia ment would make every exertion for the support of the Spa nish cause." This was the language on the former invasion of Spain—it was a language conveying the most magnanhnous and proper ,sentiments. But he would be told that the cases were different. In point of interest he admitted that they were, but he denied that they were in point of honour ; and he trusted it would not be said that England was to act solely upon the impulse of interest. It was said, also, that the two cases were dif ferent, inasmuch-as that on the former occasion the Spaniards were united, and that now they were divided. He denied that they were more united then than they were now. All the great Public Authorities, on the former occasion, were against the independence of their country ; but the provinces came forward, and the nation gradually united. And it was worthy of remark, that at that period, the language of the inqui sition was the same as that which was now used by Louis the Eighteenth. It was in substance, that " Institutions were to be derived solely from the King."—(Hear, hear !)—At that time the rench were at Madrid ; but shortly afterwards, not a French soldier was to be found South of the-Ebro. In conclu sion, the Hon. Member observed that he heartily joined the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, in his prayers for the success of the Spaniards; but whatever might be the result of the con test, he trusted that that House would preserve its character, and give support to the cause of Spanish liberty.--(Cheers.) Sir WILLIAM DE CRESPIGNY said he detested, as much as any man, the cause in support of which the French army were invading Spain ; but he'thought it his duty to con sider, first of all, the honour and safety of his own country.— (A laugh.) —If the Honourable Member, W who appeared so afflicted with a cold—(Laughter), imagined that he, (Sir .), would be deterred from stating his sentiments he was very much mistaken. That Honourable Member laid better go home and nurse himself.—(Laughing.)- He thought we were not to he th e c h am pi ons o f l a r ge ex p en dit ure . We had' laid out 4100 millions to put up the Bourbons, and now a course was proposed, likely to cause an expenditure of 800 more, to put them down again. We always paid the piper. He should certainly oppose any measure likely to embroil us in another war. Mr. BANKES said, he had listened with great attention to ascertain, if possible; from the Hon. Mover, and those who supported him, whether they wished the House to consider the passage of the French army into Spain as a good i cause of w a r on our parts against F ra n ce . He understood that those lion. Members did not go that length, but confined themselves to stating that a different course cif negotiation on our parts would have preserved the peace between France and Spain. But it had been admitted on all hands that it would have been un. worthy of this country to hold the language of menace, unless it were really determined to follow it up by war. For his own part, he was perfectly satisfied that nothing short of war on the part of England would have had any influence on the in fatuated councils of France. And, after all, he seriously questioned whether, had we gone to war, we should have had Just grounds for doing so. We had no right, by any law of nations, to make ourselves the arbiters of the world ; and in his opinion, had no more right to intermeddle than France had herself. And it would be perfectly monstrous to lay down generally that when France declared herself on one side, we should immediately range ourselves en the other. With re gard to Spain herself, no one knew ; be was sure the lion. Member for Westminster would not profess to know, the exact degree in which the Spaniards were divided, though it was cer tain that they were divided to some extent; and our taking up the subject, would be only taking it up' in favour of one party against another. The Spanish Minister had ad mitted, that all which was desired by Spain was neutrality._ Mere views of interest were not a just cause of war; though he by no means admitted that it would be our interest to go to war. We were now in the eighth year of peace, with a sur plus Revenue, and the means of relieving some of our bur thens ; and he could not but express his surprise that lion. Gentlemen should civil for war, and also for that relief which could be obtained only by our refraining from war. He thought the danger, as between France and Spain, was greater to the Dynasty of France titan to the Spanish cause ; and lie should be as little surprised, as he should be sorry to find that just pu nishment would overtake the former.—(llear, hear !)—After taking a short review of Spanish history from the time of the Grandson of Louis the Fourteenth ascending the throne, the Honourable Member proceeded to observe that he thought any fears of the union of France and Spain were alto gether visionary. The Spanish Constitution might be worth fighting for by the Spaniards themselves, but not by his coun try ; though he admired the spirit of the Spaniards in refusing to make any alteration in their Constitution in compliance with a foreign menace. There had, however, been so much hesita tion about the French Councils, that be thought it really doubt ful whether they intended, in the tint instance, to act as theyl now had. On the whole, be saw every thing to commend in the course which had been taken of the strictest neutrality. He thought, too, that the war between Fr a n ce a nd Sp a i n was very likely to becomei an unpopular war ; but that if it were once an English war it would immediately become popular. The Honourable Gentleman declared his intention to vote for the Amendment. Mr. T. WILSON explained. Mr. BARING said, that upon the conduct of the Allies, there was, be believed, but one opinion in that House.---(Cheers.) —But the resolutions before the House did not shew any inters• 1 tion to go to war ; and they were therefore far from any objec don on that ground, which had been referred to by his Bon. Friend, He drought the interest of this country had been ne glected in then egociations at Verona; and he thought so , b ecause he considered that we were now more exposed to the chance of war, than we should have been, by adopting a tone of finn and vigorous remonstrance. When we found what was the ob ject of the Allied Sovereigns, we should have broken up the Alliance. When the question of interference with Spain was first mooted, we ought to have said, " We must have something to say about Spain, as you have had about Poland." This might have been said without insult, for which there was no neces sity whatever. It was, as he conceived, the duty of Ministers to shew that they had pushed Remonstrance as far as th ey could without involving the country in war. Lie saw no proof of earnestness in the Negociations on the part of Minis ters. They had merely said, as coldly as possible, "we will take no part." This, he believed was the strongest expression; it was not earnestness ; it was not shewing that we took an. interest in the question. His lion. Friend had spoken of the hesitation of France. This was in his (Mr. Baring 's) opinion a proof that had our Remonstrances been decisive, they would have succeeded. As the case now stood, it was by no means clear that we should 'escape war. We were bound by treaty to Portugal ; and, if the French should succeed in their war upon Spain, could any man in his senses believe a eveshthatarp tier they would leave Portugal untouche d, with the same Constitution, from hatred to which they were no w in • vading Spain?-(Hear, _hear !)—The French woul d easily raise a revolution in Portugal on the frontiers. The Ho use knew ficulty ; and were we then to go to war, or yield to th in so fron hadcase might always be got u p w i t h out dif. Phiss of Mons. Chateaubriand, admit that the Portuguese were in the wrong, and leave them to their fate ? Th e course taken by Ministers placed us in a which he feared we could not get without war, or a e rostra don of our honour. Even upon the base question of intere?t alone, he should have thought that the most gnwelling c..! culator would have decided upon a tone of firm remon strance. A failure on the part of France would also ti er lution in France, _ there was every reason us into di ffi culty . ; for he had no doubt it would bring about a contest in Europe ; and if there should be 0 a revo• we should be forced into war. Firm negoPcrediattiierlanis,itillerielPtwe';°su per suaded, would have averted the danger Wiall now threat• ened us. The Negociations now before the House he had no hesitation in describing as disgraceful to the Councils of die country ; and if they were to be passed over wi th panegY ric ` or even without censure by that House, lie thought the llouise would receive any thing.-4 Hear, hear ! )--Sometimes tle balance of power was treated with great scorn, and at ot he rs it time when it was to be thought of importance, it was treated as a matter of the highest importance, just as ~ might slit the particulas purpose. But if ever there was a the present. lie agreed with those who thought the doge!. arising from the consanguinity of Kings was much overnata. mental to the liberties of this country. But he thought that if the compact by which the Allies wer? bound was allowed to remain, it might prove highly dew:: Th e Atilt's pl, ordered all the petty States of Germany to break up t?'_ d Constitutions. Among the rest, an order to this Tw i st: , ect, been given to the King of Wirtemberg ; but lie had !L... and the question, he believed, was still in discussion. Ou s e e e bly the leight Honourable Gentleman could give the 11 °9% some information on this subject. Son ch did these fkult ri t . Sovereigns dread the progress of what were called 'then! l)rice, ciples, that Russia now looked on Turkey with indider ~ _, n"ihoultr and Austria and Prussia, two countries hitherto o' variance, were now united. If, in the result, they s hou ld it it s urely w s make the Kings of Spain and Portugal despotic po we r illonarels would be their interest to check the only reinaininig _. which had a free Constitution.—(Cheers.). —Ile adinttire no great fear was to be inspired by this eircumstane bill n e i ; x t theta would not, in such a case, say, as had been said, , , ~ bon come on !" He wished them to be kept off. Leng ll t ';d, t hat ever, immediately to the present question, he repoea t he he thought the negociations were most disgraceful t o f coun cils of the country, and be should therefore vote in fav ou r the original motion. i n defence Lord FRANCIS LEVESON GOWER 81) 0 °, 1 _ _ eho rks of the negotiations • but we regret that most of u e . r . , 1 _, - he of the Noble Lord were inaudible. He observed this 1.51 should readily support a vote of censure upon anY_ l4 ::`,.e, t he Minister who were to join France, or any other Pow o er 'm force t h is ludiceennsure uPen them to do. He did not think could not, in the present instance, concur in a bation injury speculative o f a theories third; or of who happiness were even to n a y t tem p t t o f the , Ministers, whose conduct had received the appro 1 they ..,ishea Spaniards themselves, and who had done all whiri nx i ' ve re , suited from the use of language an? , stronger well 0 th e note that any gt:*d wo u ld which had been used. The Noble Lord s iortly. referred n t toe, n o of the Duke of Wellington to the Spanish Government , be contended that there was nothing in it which co dered as at all offensive to the Spaniards. H e Illember for he should vote for the amendment of the Hon. . 0.. when Yorkshire.—His Lordshi p very generally char awe was he sat down. Noble Lord on Mr. WILBERFORCE eaturli niente `e l th e e A s uh'eet on the manly tone and plainness of b; .s speecu. It w as the .ee,l.ag of which every man was bound to speak out with rlt has corn . an Englishman. The principles on which Frat.icedeproono. menced her attack on Spain could not be too " inuortunate Spa- The conduct of France with respect to thy ; lin 1 er attention niards was marked by singular duplicity. lle° I said atenit was called to the affiiirs of Naples, not a word wasieditated an Spain which could lead to suspicion that FICC the ___ ik,. i i i s to deny that they hail shown a strongClieclaredeeg; attack on that country. Having thrown Off 0 : i r pe ,., o hle Majesty's Illinisters stood forward, and it sincerewas i mp dispogi iitul rn to en fi t n a d f t a he st ri r e o: ae ger iati r o e n pr t e h s e e re n ta w ti a oi s r a ° h a t to preserve peace. Looking at the Papers, ac o F tvivil r ewis n g,dis c n t gow l c ifeiGvdt with France,on hc 0 o e at r th n irt se s s e o p a bba L luenatinDad H t onuiekser any protestela d moderationel t i a " i e b lin : t that old,tfeos fc,p f ils i i r rri o ns er i t a 1 li l i i f l e l od e c t f h e w t i : sh a t.O l '1.1 . 8 a c 7 .11 d d ? ; i e 0 1 i c . , ) -- t e lero rd yet merely that the English Government did not co-°Pelclaratilon e against the councils to which France was lendieg hero but to :Ministers m entrusted ni ise o f t to assistance hm . would D i t i i a k : o g ' f i l v i l s e i P n r i t6 : siitnitunCo,e'n°:s: s ha ck l ine: th e merely - 1 : 1 el f 0 that, e ers were certainly bound not only. to d o utie di be because duties very p for invasion. With respect to the Duke ef Sirc4 l ;ng t ° l o rtot oiavit be ar, hl ani ti! d r nr:: : : :: vent tee o n France upon Spain. His Majesty's Ministers feu ,ition t''''' the policy of England was strict neutralit. a d not been cot..iwience, derate language in France, and skew a friendly with disP cO tid wards Spain. It became the Ministers to proceed . 11 , t hat with respect to Spain and to convince her Governi l in hn e h lt e w d a id s p no ra t i fi se n a d .ar o t n hy th t e a face of f i ro le m Pa t ;: s t t i if they were desirous of preserving Peac e / of conduct they pursued, and lie certainly could ne itii e t i r ne proceedings in a vindictive point of view. M the b o i f lan . ' SUCh W_°:3,ce titer gunge which the negociw ion with France seemed too,' r b a ps dPe e they edit sr on t he strong language. He was disposed to believe that w ne ineesh ' endeavouring part of this country would have made th e objects of t h e part of tills country would have niade thic I ) 1n 00 t gselY Government popular. France in the end w oiild in . o s . The suffer for her oppressive attempt at aggrandiet;erld'"of sof- Spanish people had hewn on a former occasion a I,.. anee els fering from the very darkness and bigotry which l'i rtit reael i Madrid, but the opinion of the best informed per on peer,. ultimately the Saniards would rise in their struggl e ' ° ce , o' l The aggree e n- n in o Spain was not likely to benefit Fr.an ran ts to regard - to I to perpetuate. The French army n. #4„,, that 2 ortugal , France did not show any t_lolf ~,i ass violate that territory, because she* well knew nor ., ,uP s ; ?. ,, „f -onder the protection of England. In case Portoge.i., , !. , S; tacked, we were hound to defend her. In that 4T l .'„ ~,,,elt, England must go to war, and in such a wile the c ow l ! , :_ ttell ,p disposition to doubtless afford the utmost assistance. • The lion. ! i : by iii., again expressed his regret there had not been i!r o , ic e one Government of England a plain declaration °T j r 1,, since! truth ; yet he could not say there was any want 0 .t .,. $ alio!' stern intended only to promote the interests of tneu ' He oppoeed the motion. o Xi"' cry ' Adjourn • pr., Mr. H. SUMNER rose amidst the of ' that re , stinting, as he did, a large and opulent county, he cou e ' s `:, o3 iinqe e ' prevent war. He was sure his MajeL.neote, journ 1" Having obtained a hearing, he o bgerved , ,,, not eie:tt expressing his sentiments upon the important qn .!'„, o f tit . discussion. It must be obvious that die GoVeroly'keeil country had pursued a steady line of policy,. wi s d , 00; 4 out of all Continental alliances which had iii vlev i sat in tie , of public liberty. The Noble Lord who recently , , fi i„ipea House at the head of his Majesty's Goverrimen,,tl2.atutPabie.eht to the Allies what were th e sentiments of the in' n ese atan e and the Members of Parliament. Upon that rep . r He tot; the principles of the nation must have been knof,veninc,, sidered the line of policy adopted by th e Puke "..„, mos t de _. highly beneficial to the country. Neutrality. ay he p . able in a country recovering from a long onl!e:*....„dia, opel,',, his Majesty's Ministers sincere thanks' fir th e r a "a b e en sa' e `: manly and honourable part they had a war cdnimenced by this country would be poe ith t he FreZ Ire could not believe the war would be popular 1v a... , the n o .. taken. IL i n Eradc A Government. They had known our perseveretl,,T,'lstyis 111.io of our arms. It was, however, the duty of II ) , , 4 :_i_.'J c ontry . :,: i . nisters, supporting the honour and interest o f loni :„ I ,;:e'' keep peace. If war must come, let it be delay The cry, " Adjourn"! adjourn 1" was ageln,:"Z n or n re use Bible, and when i tcommenced, the Ministers sit?e l , (l ).;a a lv e I t i t ' tie red. Several Members at the same time exclaimedtt _ „ `,-.,7 b me b " Mr. P. MOORE then rose, and moved Do '-'' ) fle e° journed till to=morrow.we ed to bYr. le . -sea The question was accordingly put and _D a y teerl wisp without a division.—The other Ordcrhof the of, anti the House adjourned at TWELVE °TLC"'