The Sun. — London, England, 1823-03-05 00:00:00

tasurrettisim if he were wrong, but the Tithe property of the Church was so identified with it, that so long as that House .continued to perform, its duttl', they could no more divest the leader of tithes of his 'property than they could divest any in tilvidual of his estate. There were individuals who held pro `petty by certain services, to be by them performed. These services, omitted to be _performed,. who had ever heard of the wlles being despoiled of their property alto g ether? Yet Oils was the course the Honourable Gentlemen was disposed so take with respect to the Clergy. The Honourable Gen tleman mistook altegether the ammeter of tithes. These -were not given merely for the benefit of the' Church, but - tor the benefit of the people. He described some of those who received them to defraud the country, and therefore he po_posed to withdraw the property from them altogether.— •• Because certain Members of the Clergy, iniparticUlar parts of the cottony,. do not perform their duty, I,' cried this great ' aeformer of the modern school, " will Mulct the districts which have thus been wronged of the means of maintaining Clergy .; for aver Supposing the case of abuses to have existed in a logical, would that be a reason for doing away that hospital ? :the lion. Gentleman might say he did net argue fairly in corn. paring his plan with the Resolutions of lb-It); as the Hon. 'Gentleman had proposed nut to limit the allowance of the .Clergy to the cant then thought Sufficient for their maintenance as he proposed to grant them an income of between one loin died and five hundred potinds per annum, but in principle he ' , conceived the proposition to bethe saute. He (Mr. ooulbarn) - was not bound, to the Established Church by any idle venera -Oat which would lead him to favour those who neglected to ful f.el the duties of their situation. Ile, however, telt that great edvantages were derived from the efforts made to promote re ligious knowledge, and it had always being the pride of the Church of this Country to have produced more men of learning and of general knowledge, than had distinguished any other Church in the world. This supplied one reason against un called for interference with the Clergy. Unless the canto in ducements as formerly, continued to be held out, the same influx of learning and talent could not be expected. When he (Mr. Goulburn) compared dte Church of England with that establishment to which the Honourable Gentleman was very fond of referring, the Church of Scotland, (of which he meant to speak with proper respect) when he considered the distin guished individuals which had been furnished to the world by each, he confessed he could see no reason for altering our pre.. sent Church establishment. The observations lie had made were necessarily of a very general nature. The argument did not confine itself to one country. He knew of no argument .against diminishing or confiscating Church prOperty in this country which would not apply to similar acts in Ireland. The Hon. Gent. had admitted that the Irish Church was no worse than that of England, and therefore it must be admitted that it was entitled to the same impartial jtistice. Those who took this view of the subject would, lie hoped, concur with him in voting against the motion. Having differed so much from the lion. Gent. he at length came to one point in which he could agree with him. He Joined with him in regretting that so many of the Irish Clergy were non-residents : lie wished more of them to be resident in their dioceses as he thought the presence of the Clergy more necessary in I reland than in any other country in the world. He wished to see them resident there, as he -thought their presence would tend to tranquillize the people more than any other circumstance that could be imagined. This .had been in the contemplation of the Bishops, Archbishops, and Lord Lieut. of Ireland, arid their influence had been used to di minish the number of non-residents. To make the Clergy resi dent on their v th out attacking the property of the Church, was that to which he had no objection whatever. The lion. Gentleman had spoken of the influence of family Interest; and had supposed the Church appointments in Ireland to be made from these corrupt motives, which so readily occurred to him on all occasions. He knew that many of the Clergy in Ireland had net connection with high families or with those had seats in that House. This, however, was nothing, unless the individuals allnded to, by their character and conduct, forfeited their claim to the distinctions they enjoyed. There were none higher in talents, learning, and virtue titan those who sat on the Irish Bench. He opposed the present motion, not for the effect which it would have on the Church, but for that which it would have on all the interests of the country. If once a vote were given against church property he knew not what description of property would continue secure. Considering the Church Establishment as calculated to promote religious knowledge • •anti individual advantage, he hoped those who heard Into would • concur with him to give a hearty negative to the motion. Mr. STURAT, vindicated the appointment of the Irish Clergy. None had been selected but the most deserving indi viduals. The late Primate, in the course of twenty years, had given no appointment to any relation or friend of his own, and therefore the ch arge inferred on that subject was wholly unfounded. Mr. HUME said, the Primate might have so disposed of the appointments if he had pleased.—(A laugh.) Mr. STUART, refering to some of the statements of the Hon. Gentleman, regretted he suffered himself to be led away by such inaccurate representations. Till the Act of 1807 passed, there was no power to compel the residence of the flew. That Act had done much tenvartis correcting the evil, -.sod if the Hon. Geotlemati were to go again to Ireland, he would find there was no lack of resident Clergymen. Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD,. differed from the Hon. :Gentleman who brought forward the motion ; but not on the grounds stilled by the Right lion. Gentleman opposite. lie begged leave to disclaim, in the first instance, any improper or unkind feelings towards that Body who were more especially the objects of the , motion. He was inclined to support the motion, more with a view to promote the prosperity of the Protestant Religion, than for the purpose of producing a saving of money t• and, with those feelings, he did not hesitate to say that the Church of Ireland was too richly endowed.—( hear !)—So long' as such large incomes should be en joyed, so long, it was to be apprehended, would the humble and More laborious services of the Church be neglected. That the Church possessed man y valuable and exemplary members in the higher ranks of the Clergy could not he denied; but these were unfortunately not calculated to secure that (imb, or to promote its objects in that manner, or with so much zeal as in. dividuals with more humble expectations. He was friendly to the motion for inquiry, because it would go to place the Church . of Ireland upon a more secure basis than that on which it rested sts. present. That Church had now to contend with other sects e and in particular with an able, zealous, and learned Body in the Catholic Clergy of Ireland. It was therefore worthy of inquiry 'whether, under those circumstances, zealous and more humble •Clergymen of the Established Church were not daily detaching themselves from it, and attaching themselves- to other and more popular branches of IL Ile stated that us a circa instance notorious; no it WAS amelancholy fact that there wereln the South of Ireland whole districts that had been peopled by-Protestant*, and the deseendante of Protestants, in which there was not one now to be found ; they bad gone elsewhere to seek a more active and srealcius Clergy.-4 ear, hear 1) —These circumstances alone would prove the necessity for inquiry; but there were other and stronger arguments—for it would be found !hat frequently four, five. six, seven, nay, ten or eleven }parishes, were united under one Rector, arid that even that hector was an absentee. If from large tracts in the South of Ireland Protestantism had com pletely disappeared, was not thatfact of itself a strong . motive - for inquiry ? Feeling that it was such, he trusted the inquiry would be granted. Ile would rather the motion had been made in a manner different from that in which it had' been brought forward, .anal that it had been unaccompanied by certain re marks ; hilt if he could not have the subject introduced in that :eller which he should prefer—if the measure did not originate, •.as it ought, with his Majesty's Ministers—if not from re. : ard for Ireland, (of which he feared they knew very little)—if he could not have it thus brought In by them, he should hail any motion for inquiry, nod give it his zealous support. But when lie heard the Right lion. Gentleman apposite: say, that he would not take up he subject, and combat the arguments in support of the motion for inquiry--not upon their merits, but by assertions of. purity of the Clergy and other similar argu. menet, was he not justified in despairing that an inquiry would be prosecuted at all ? and he felt therefore reduced to the necessity of voting for any motion, the object of which was to procure an inquiry into the present state of the Church anti its Establish meow. The Church of Ireland was in danger ...not front any rival Church; but from the evils that had grown up' within itself. He therefore trusted that a true and honest re form would be infused into the Church establishment of Ire land—lf .not, It would reform itself before long. lie gave fall enedieto the assertion of the purity of those individuals who had been selected for the Bench of Ilitibope, and would have }sailed the caret and discrimination that had been used In making dhe selection as an happy omen, hail it been ecconiparded by a isposition to investigate—to IMprees upon them the necessity for their promoting In their respective dioceses those doctrines ata3 that ediee.ation which they had sworn to enforce. If the eitithority of Goverrinient were nut thus exertA liti'.Aitt entitled to•-;say that the Church would be ere long without any fol lowers whatever. He would do justice to his Majesty's Mi nisters--a new, light appeared to have broken in upon theme.. at length they bad evinced a disposition to attend, not only to the religious character, but to the talents and abilities of tfio se whom they recommended for promotion. - There was another pDint which he was not inclined t o m i x u p with thos e o n which he had touched ; he nses.nt the subject of tithes, a subject which the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite seemed to Confi der as of a nature too 'sacred 'for investigation ; butt although lie a'-teed with the Right'.llun. Gentleman in the propriety and roi!evAttity for postponing observations on that subject, he feared the intended measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman would not he found calculated to promote air those desirable ands which must be desired .by lino, particularly if it were Minded en the Act of lest Sessitin. • The Right Hon. Gentle man concluded by paying a compliment to the Catholic Clergy, 6 . .6 of IreLutil, andlutpressing i ntention to vote for the motion. - Mr. PEEL saitr, that tile Right lion. Gentleman admitted, that there was.a dispositidin upon the part of Ministers to select those who were most qualified to discharge the . duties of the calling. Would he not then give credit to the same Ministers for a disposition to reform error, and to correct abuse ? In what, way could inquiry be best promoted—in what way could alinses be more effectually corrected than by the labours of the Govern ment and of those individuals who were selected to till the high situations of the Church, not through, family influence, but solely , with reference tertheir moral character, their attainments, and their virtues? With respect to the question of the union. of families, he would read a passage from the ,document referred to by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen. The writer of that do. cument stated, that a factious vote of the Irish House of Com `mons took away the agistment tithe, and reduced the vicars to absolute want. It was found necessary to •unite severaLvicar-• ages in order to provide a maintenance for the clergy. It was with difficulty that that Maintenance could be provided, for in some eases, where 8 and even 10 parties were united, they did not bring more than 2001. a-year. The vote of the Irish House of Commons, in 173.5, was urged on the ground that it would tend to maintain* the Protestant Religion, and discourage the growth of Popery;--(Hear, hear!) but the conaeqnenee had been (Enke the other way--(llear !)--the Protestant Religion was injured by that vote.—(Hear !)-- Ile would apply the argu ment to the present proposition, and he would call upon. the House not to consent to a measure founded on principles as un just, and likely to prove us injurious. The question was not as to the propriety of instituting an inquiry into abuses, the real enemy of the Church, wishing.to injure the Establishment to the utmost of his power, would submit a proposition to the House 1 of Commons, founded on such principles as those on which' the present motion was founded. If the proposition were adopted, it would affect not merely the Irish Church, but the Established Church also, it was an attack upon both ; and what was the situation of the Church with respect to that House ? He should beg the house to recollect, that by Act of Parliament (with the policy of which he did not find fault), the Clergy were prevented from having a voice in that House, that the ancient assemblies through which they were accustomed to deliver their opinions (the Convocation) had fallen into disuse, and that it therefore was but just that peculiar caution should lie used in at tacking the rights of men Who had not organs through which to defend themselves. It was not however on this ground that he resisted the motion, but because he felt it necessary to make a stand against doctrines which tended equally to slavery and spo liation—(Hear !)—Was it possible that it could be maintained by a Whig, by the Hon. Member, who: went even beyond a Whig in potlier opinions, that even the privilege of complaint was to be withheld from the Clergy ? Was he to tell the Clergy that they had no 'right to express their opinion on the subjects in which they were especially interested—(Hear, hear ! i).-If a Bishop met the Clergy of his diocese, to express an - opinion on the commutation of tithes (not that they would not pay the most implicit obedience to the determination of' Parliament, but merely to declare that they did not consider that the proposed measure would benefit the Church), the Hon. Mover told them that they were to be regarded as the officers of a mutinous hat; talion, who meet the officers of a brother battalion, to protest against the reduction of the amiy.—(Hear !)—lf any man had maintained on that (Mr. I'.'s) side of the House that the peti. titioners in behalf of an existing rightof property should be look ed upon in the same light as soldiers guilty of a breach of the Mutiny Act, he would be justly met with general indignation. The Hon. Gent. had asked them what was the church of Eng land? He had told them that there were various opinions, not as to its constitution, but as to the very meaning of the term. If, as the Hon. Mover had supposed, they were on the eve of voting that Quakerism should be established by law, he did not know what his notions might be as to the Church of England; but so long as the Protestant Reformed Religion was the religion of this country, he should be at no loss to say what the Church of England was. The definition of the, Church of England was not to be soughrin any obscure productions, but in the most solemn acts in which Parliament had provided for the main. tenance of the liberties of the people, they had not . thought it unsuitable to provide for the liberties of the Church. In the first Voltime of the Statute Book, in the first page, and the first chapter, in the confirmation of , the liberties of the people of England, the Barons required, " Quod Anglicans Ecelesia li. tern sit, et habeat :pro situ Integra libertate, et sous Mesas." At the Coronation of the King, it was not deemed unworthy of the attention of Parliament to require from the King an oath esta blished at the Revolution, that he would maintain to the Protes tant Reformed Religicin estublhihed by law, and that he would preserve "unto the Bishops and Clergy of this realm, and to the churches committed to their charge, ail such rights and privileges as by law door shall appertain unto them aunty of there ( Hear ! ) He denied therefore altogether that the Church was to be con sidered as a congregation of Quakers, or individuals of any other sect ; he refused therefore m go with the Hon. Movet even One step, because he had explained the principle on which t w i II proposed d to no p tTm " pte elvtewnaosninavAneitnt he taken his seat, that they should go into an inquiry to further the wishes of the late Primate of Ireland, who had said " that the Church of Ireland was much misunderstood ;" he had 'dis qualified himself from any such pretence by his first Resolu tion, " That the property of the Church of Ireland at pre- 1 sent in possession of the ' Bishops and Deans and Chapters in Ireland (as if' they were intruders) was public property under the controul and at the disposal of the Legislature for the sup port of religion-(Hear, hear ! from Mr. Hunie) and for such other purposes as Parliament in its wisdom may deem bene ficial to the community ; due attention being had to the rights of every person now enjoying any part of that property." Before Parliament went into an Inquiry on the condition of the Church, they were to affirm that the property of the Church was applicable to any . other purposes than 'the maintenance of religion. It was a vain and useless discussion to inquire into the competence of Parliament, nor should he be inclined to deny it ; but of this he . was sure, that on any , principles on which Parliament could wisely act, they could not interfere with the property of the Church—that they could , not touch it Without weakening the confidence in private property. He should not look to the origin or antiquity of the Church of Ireland ; but when the Honourable Member talked of the sti pulations of the Act of Union as the reason why , he did not abolish :Episcopacy altogether, he would ask whether the Hon. Member could prove it consistent with the Act of Union to re duce them to four Bishops and one Archbishop.--(tear, hear !) The Church of Ireland was a . part of the United Church of England and Ireland, and in the Act of Union (the Pith Ar ticle lie believed) every: Bishop and Archbishop was enume rated, and the rotation in which they were to take their places in Parliament settled. The Right Honourable Secretary con cluded by repeating, tkat after the first Resolution of the Hon. Mover, he could not consent to go into the inquiry in which that Resolution was to be their guide. Mr. DENMAN was not disposed. to wait till the evils coin plained . of were attempted to 'be 'reformed by these who op. posed this motion, as if he did so he feared there would be no chance of their getting any reform at all. He saw nothing in the Act of Union which ought to preclude them from con -1 sidering what principle ()ugh , to be applied to . the Govern ' ment of the Irish Church. le heard with dismay the refer ence made to the Ononation , Oath.- He thought no argument dinwn from that source could prove very conciliatory, as that had for a long:period prevented a fair discussion of the claims of the Catholics. It was unfortunate that the Right Honourable Gentle Man had made amy reference to die Co ronation Oath. lie saw no objection to considering whe ther .the revenues of the Church, could not be made more conducive to ,the pod of the Church. What had been done in the cue of the Curacy Bill. These first principles had been referred to in order to make a better provision for the remuneration of the working Clergy, or those who per formed the duty. He knew of nothing in the speech of the Honourable Mover that could warrant the strong observation which had been made on it. He did not mean to defend the whole of it, as he had not heard it all.—(A laugh.)—He should support the motion, as unless a practicid Reform were effected in the Church, there would be. no peace in Ire. . land. Mr. Secretary PEEL explained.:.-The Learned Gentleman had considered it unfortunate that any reference had been made by him to the Coronation Oath. Ile thought it but fair to state, that he had never, in any debate on the Catholic Question, urged the Coronation Oath against the concessions,demandel— Such an argument he bad never used, nor would he ever use one, which he was not prepared to avow and maintain. Mr. DENMAN expressed satisfaction at the explanations of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Air. PLUNKETT begged to trespass on the House for a few moments. lie did so with reluctance ; but lie felt he should be wanting to himself, to the situation which he had the honour to fill, and to the part which he was accustomed to take nn that question, which had been incidentally con. nected with the debate of this night, if he were not to offer one or two observations on this ,ioccasion. The nature of Church property was well knoWn to the House. It was not for the purpose of; speaking on this subject that he had risen. ,--But ho could not allow the resolutions of the Honourable Member to be offered to the consideration of the Howie, with out expressing In terms as strong as the English language could sup Ply, 'or the rules of Parliament would allow him to use in that House, his Sense of the folly and desperation of the measure Which had beer* proposed, and without express. ing the strongest reprobation which it was in his power to be. stow.—(Hear, hear.)—The plan of time Hon. Gentleman for governing the Church of Ireland, if proper for that country, would be proper for England. If adopted by Parliament, they would in effect declare that the property of the Hierarchy was liable to be disposed of for purposes of religion, or for any other purposes.--(Hear, hear f)--This would prepare the way for the downfall of Hierarchy, that of the Throne must follow, and this would of course involve die overthrow of the Constitution.--(ilear,hear!)—lle was no advocate for the di= vine rights or the sacred property of the Church. But he wished property to be held sacred. The Church was, in plain len guage, nn integral part of our Constitation, and could not be interfered with without, interfering with 'ale Constitution (Hear, hear, hear!)—Hitt thefionourable Gentlemen 'had said Parliament, had interfered with the:, revenue Of the 'Crown, and 'had the same - right - to interfere:4'th the Church. He admitted that it had die same right to interfere. But when the. House interfered with the revenues of the Crown, it wits not to eommmit aneutrage„ but to make a compact, to which the Crown was a consenting party, which was to last but till the expiration of the life interest of the reigning Sovereign.:-.- But the proposition of the 'tight Hon. Gentleman attack ed the property of the Church for alledged irregularities, and without limiting his measure to a life interest, demanded that its property -should he taken away altogether. But then an equitable adiustment was 'to be made. And what was the equitable adjustment proposed ? Why that full iximpensation should be made to the individuals now in the Choral. This compensation was to be given to the indivi duals of whose misconduck he complained, and the property belonging to the Church was to be taken from their success ors, who had never offended....,(Hear, hear, hear !)—And this was the equitable adjustment proposed by the Honourable Gentleman.--(I ear, hear !)—lf he deprecated taking such a course with the pronerty of the Church in England,. he depre cated still more such interference with the Church in Ireland. The property of' the Church of England was an integral part of the Constitution. So it was in Ireland, but besides that the bond which connected Ireland with England grew out of the Protestant establishment. When he' had heard a speech like that of the Hon. Gentleman's, much as he regretted the situa tion of the Roman Catholics, it was impoisible for him to be silent. Anxious as he was that the claims of the Catholics should be conceded, he would fling them to the winds if lie be lieved that granting of them would he injurious to the Protestant interest. But what was the ground on which he recommended that measure ? It was this, that he was satisfied that no act of Legislation was so well calculated to give security to the Pro testant interest as that which would restore a great body of the, people to their long lost rights.—(Hear, hear !) Mr. MONK agreed with his lion. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, that the Ecclesiastical Revenues were not so much intended to benefit the Clergy as the people at large. When the House was called upon to vote millions for the building of churches, where was the harm of asking whether the Ecclesia stical Revenues, were not equal to bear the expence ? Where was the harM of taking something from the hierarchy of the Church to be bestowed upon the inferior Clergy ? It was with this view that he should support the Resolutions, and not with any desire of spoliation, because he did not think that either the 'Church of England or of Ireland were too well endowed. Mr. GRATTAN said, that from hail fallen from the other side, he was apprehensive that no measures were intended to be proposed by the Government 01: this important subject. As inquiry was necessary, he should, therefore, support the Re. solutions, without agreeing in all the doctrines advanced by the Hon, Member for Aberdeen. He should never support any views or principles of sphliation ; but he was of' opinion that the officers of the Church in Ireland, and its revenues, ought to be regulated. By the present system, Ireland had been made a Catholic country ; for there were not now more than four or five hundred thousand Protestants in Ireland. Because he thought inquiry necessary, lie should vote for the Resolutithil. Mr. HUME then rose to reply. Ile complained of the than. ner in which his proposition had been treated by thosewlio op posed it. Nothing, he had said, would warrant the language which had been appliedto him. When such personal attacks were made upon him it was a duty lie owed to himself, and to those friends who supported him, to resist.--(Hear!)-His intentions had been grossly misrepresented, and when such in. tentions were imptited to him be denied the fact. The Right Hon. Attorney-General might have misunderstood him, but he could not misunderstand his Resolutions, and therefore there never was so gross a misrepresentation. The SPEAKER called the lion. Member to order. When the lion. Member spoke of' a gross misrepresentation, he un derstood the charge to be that such misrepresentation originated in a misunderstanding. But when the lion. Member spoke the last sentence he deprived him of that construction. Mr. HUME begged pardon, and (lid not at all wish to break the rules of the Mouse. lie had only said what he thought,— ,He supposed the Right Hon: Gentleman had not seen his Re solutions. He complained that of late he had always been met by perion'al attacks, and lie must really throw himself upon the protection of the Ilouse.,( fleas, hear !) —When the Rt. Hon. Gentleman talked of a violation of the principles of honour and honesty, and justi e, lie would say that lie should be ashamed to bring forward a measure of such . a cheracier, and that he valued the principles of honesty and justice as match us the Right lion. Gentleman himself. The Right Hon. Secretary had said that lie was the greatest enemy of the countrye—(Cries of " No, no !" and laughter.) Mr. Secretary PEEL said that the words used by him were " the Honourable :Member is himself, the greatest enemy to enquiry."—(Cheers.) Mr. HUAI E proceeded. Then. the Right lionourable.At ' torney-Genend for Ireland hail put himself,into a passion, and said, with great form, that he should apply to these.resolutions the strongest language which the rules of the House would admit. And then he proceededd-to say, that the measure was an act of desperation and folly on the part of the individual who brought it, forward.—(Bursts of laughter, and loud cries of " No, no.") Mr. PLUNKETT said that be had described the measure as being one of desperation and folly, but not one word had he Said of the individual who proposed it--(Great cheering and laughter.) Mr. HUME conceived that the words applied not only to the measure, but to the agent of its Introduction to the House.—(Repeated laughter.)—The Right Honourable Gen. tleman said, that the support or the Catholic Question was incorporated with his nature. He agreed with him in the importance of that question, and thought as he did, that it would be the greatest of all reforms for Ireland. But then he would ask, why did the Right lion. Gentleman continue to act with thoie who were hostile to it,—(Cheers from the Oppo sition.)--A man who had, such views, and united with nsen that did every thing in their power to oppose them, was not the friend of Ireland.--(clear, hear !)—This desperation and folly was shared in by Bishop Watson, and he believed that he should have many other Bishops on his side if they acted with his candour and frankness. He contended that the Act of 1780, which took from the clergy the right of tithes upon pas. tune land, had been rendered irrevocable by the. Act of Union with Ireland. The Right Hon. Gentleman was not then Attor ney-General, but he was sufficiently prominent as a public men to have opposed that Act. Here, then, behalf mit hts hand and seal to an Act which robbed the Church of 311-40ths of its dues. His Resolutions went !iproduce no such ellbcts, and he would read,them to the House because many Members were not aware of their contents, He hoped they - would benefit the divi sion, although they were not in possession of the question.— (A laugh.)—The Right Hon. Secretary and the Right. Hon. Gentleman had both quoted Scripture upon this occasion. It was something about ointment—lie did not know exactly what it was—(Loud laughter)—but he would tell theni what St. Paul hiul said in his epistle to the Thessalonians. St. Paul there said, " For even when we were with you, we commanded you, that if a man will not work, so neither shall he eat."—(A laugh.)—Now what he said was—follow St. Paul ; let not those clergymen be paid who did not work. He hoped the Right Honourable Gentle Man would impress this as strongly as he did that about the ointment. The Hon. Member then read some quotations from Paley, and other writers which lie considered to support the principles of the Resolutions he had submitted to the House. He expressed his intention of not dividing the House upon the first Resolution, but upon the second, wbich only related to inquiry, he certainly should do so, Mr. Goutaronsa explained. . The first Resolution was then put, and negatiVed ; and upon the second the House divided— For the Resolution Against it - Majority WEST INDIA PIRACIES. Mr.' MARRYAT rose to call the attention of the House to certain letters written by the Secretary of the Admiralty, in the month of October last, in the name of the Board, and intended for the information of the Public. These letters, lie said, contain statements directly at variance with fact, as can be proved by docUmenta of unquestionable authority, as well as by the evidence of varinuii respectable and uninterested eye -witnesses; and therefore this is a case which calls loudly for investigation. Hitherto, the authenticity of all communt rations coming from the public departments of Government had been so unimpeachable, that when we would describe in formation as being true beyond All , possibility of doubt, we do so in one word, by saying that it is official. Lamentable, in deed, would be the situation of the people, if their eredulity were to he practised upon, and their confidence abused by men in office, whose bounden duty it is to serve them, not only with zeal, but with fidelity. Perhaps these observations apply with more force to communications front the Admiralty than from any other public department ; not only all the great commercial and political interests of the country are affected mense amount, ar e made u pon the - faith of' the representations by them, but cont rac t s for insurance of property, to an im. they contain; and great injuries is done between man and man it' these representations be inaccurate.' It is true, that the Ad. miralty, in giving accounts to the public, of events that take them by the offi cers em pfoyed in his Majesty' s serv i ce ; an d r eports of their proceedings, and place on foreign stations, depend upon the information given that if they make inc or rect describe themselves as performing duties which they h ave no t discharged, they are th e responsi de parties. All I contend for is, and lam satisfied that the house will agree with me in the proposition, that if I make out my case, and prove that the public have been deceived by false representations, the honour of his Majesty's Government, and the satisfaction of the pub. 167 lie, both require that the subject should be limbed to the bottom, - anti every paper that can throw light upon it be produced, in order that the authors of this imposition, whoever they may be, should be known, and dealt with as they deserve. For a consi derable number of years past, a correspondence has been carried on between the Board of Admiralty and the Committee for ma naging the affairs of Lloyd's, which has Artainly been attended with advantage, both to the public service and to the commer cial interests of the country. In the year 1811 agents for Lloyd's were appointed at every pert 'throughout the globe to which British • commerce extend's, Who transmit to the Com mittee, by every possible opportunity, the arrivals, and sailings, and losses of ',easels, together with *every information that can interest the commercial part of the community. By this means the system of commercial intelligenie has been 'brought to the the rays concentratedy s e d of ere information linnttocroie. s h e i a g t h ter es e t d der ro e t e l of the to the. Admiralty by ins focus t a the t L 1 navalo y d ' throu ghout o e A u r p v( te t taw that o a ln a lo e 41 r e d a eo l- qt do Ll lorealtadi come ld are are interesting to the subscribers to Lloyd's, and thus the intar vveeydainzae 4 tch an es d b t y ll e men d n o ra iv a l t r y , 'th i n e Co lik ent e n n l t a i n o n fe w r , liich change is mutually useful. In the course of this correspondence, lfre quentlyesanereellceni on the 7th of October last, a letter Was addressed to the Ad miralty, by the Committee for managing the surer of Lloyd's, stating the capture of two British vessels, the Industry and the Vittoria, by a piratical schooner, off the Islander Cuba. On the 9th of that month, the Secretary of the Adiniralty acknow ledged the receipt of that letter, in one addressed to the Secxe tary of the Committee, containing these words :--" lam com manded by their Lordships to acquaint you., for the informa tion of the Committee for managing_ the affairs of Lloyd's, that their Lordships had already received an account of that trans action from Capt. Walcott, of his Alajestv's sloop Carnation, who had been directed by Rear-Admiral Sir Charles Rowley to take up a station in that neighbourhood for the protection of the trade, and who writes, under date of the 12th of August, that, on than day, seventeen sail of the Jamaica ships had passed safely round Cape Antonio, and that he was waiting in that quarter to see the remaining vessels also safe. His Majesty's sloop Dotterel was also in that neighbourhood." In another letter, written the day following, to Mr. Alderman} Daniel, of Bristol, in answer to one from that gentleman, inclosing a state ment of the ship Edward Protheroe, belonging to that port, hay ing been plundered by pirates °lithe island of Cuba, the Secre tary of the Admiralty goes into further details respecting his fitiesty's sloop Dotterel. His words are,—" Their Lontahips have advises front his Majesty's sloop Carnation, which, as well as his .Majesty's sloop Dotterel, was, on the 12th of Ang. last, in the immediate neighbourhood referred to in the above statement; and my Lords hope, that the attention thus drawn by his Majesty's naval commanders to this point, toge ther with other measures taken by their Lordships, will have the effect of suppressing these piracies." The first averment in these letters is, that the Carnation had been directed by Rear. Admiral Sir Charles Rowley, to take up a station off the island of Cuba for the protection of the trade. It appear: from the list of vessels that sailed from Jamaica, which are regularly published in the Gazette of that island, that the Carnation sailed from thence on the 23d of May for Campeachy and Vera Cruz; and that the next ship that proceeded to Cam• peachy was the Tamar, that sailed on the 9th of July ,• too late, by far, to carry any' dispatches to the Carnation. lf' then, such directions were given by Admiral Rowley to Capt. Wal cott, they - must have been given before he sailed from Jamaica. Now, can it be believed, that if Admiral Rowley thought it necessary that a ship of war should take up a station off Cuba, for the protection of trade, he would not have dispatched one there direct ; but that he should assign that important and pressing service to one that was proceeding on so very different and circuitous a destination ? What would be thought of a military commanding officer, who, if a riot broke out in Palace yard, instead of ordering the Guards to march (ruin their bar racks in Westminster straight to the spot, were to send them round by Fulham, Wimbledon, and Vauxhall-bridge? And this would riot have been a more round-about way of arriving at ' his object, than a vessel going from Jamaica to the coastof Cuba by way of Campeachy and Vera Cruz. But farther, it does not appear that Admiral Rowley thought any protection to the trade necessary so far back as the 23d of May, when Capt. Walcott sailed from Jamaica ; for, from that date, to theist August, he auffered all the homeward-bound ships to WI from Jamaica without any protection ; which it cannot be thought he would have done, had he considered protection necessary at so much ear. lier a period ? A still more conclusive proof, that Capt. Walcott was nut directed by Admiral Rowley to take up a station off Cuba for the protection of the trade isa that had he received such directions, be would have obeyed them ; whereas, in point of fact, he never 'lid rake up such a station for the protection of the trade, as asserted in the letter from the Secretary of the Admiralty;. and this is proved by a cloud of witnesses, to whose testimony I shall now refer. Capt." Walcott sailed front. the Havannah for .Tainaica ' with a cargo of sp ec i e , ear ly on the morning of the 10th of August. Immedi a t e ly on l eav i ng t h e harbour, lie fell in with the brig Industry, from Jamaica, bound to St. Thomas's, havingon board the master and crew of the Vie. thrift, from Jamaica to London ; both which vessels had been captured three (lays before, by a pirate off Saddle-hill. Captain Cook, of the Industry, acquainted Captain Walcott with these circumstances ; but to avoid misrepresentation, I shall give his narrative in his own words, as contained in the statement he delivered to the agent for Lloyd's at St. Thomas's on his arrival - there, which was trasmitted by the agent to the Committee for managing the afikirs at Lloyd's. In this narrative, after relating the capture of both vessels, the provi dential deliverance of their officers and crews , whom the captain of the pirate had determined to murder, hut who was himself murdered in 'a quarrel that took place among the pirates, And the new captain permitting them to proceed in the Industry he adds--" Captain Hearn and his c rew remained on board'the Industry till the 10th of August, when we fell in with his Ma jesty's brig Carnation, Captain Walcott, w h o was goo d enoug h to take them on ho ar d, and - give them a p a s sage to J ama i ca ," not a,truise off Cuba for the protection of the trade, but a pas. sage to Jamaica. The second witness is Captain Ileum, of the Vittoria, who, on his arrival at Liverpool, wrote to his owner at London, and after detailing the circumstances of his capture, and being put on board the Industry, as related by Captain Cook, proceeds as follows :—" On the 10th of August, in the morning, being off' the Havannab , perceiv e d a liri. tish man of w ar coming out of the harbour : made all sail, and at half-past fi, a. in. got within hail, when it proved to be the Carnation, Captain Walcott. lie immediately sent his boat for Captain Cook and myself : went ou board and re. fated the circumstances. Ile then offered me and my crew * passage'to Jamaica." Captain llearn then states, he offered his services and tho s e of h is crew , to go with Captain Wal cott in search of the pirate and hi s b r i g . Ile then agreed, and made all sail, keeping well in shore ; at night he. hove to. On the 12th, made out a number of vessels, two of which he made sail towards, and one of them proved to be the ship Blacken, Capt. Benson, from Jamaica, bound for Liverpool, who offered him a passage, which he accepted, Capt. 'Walcott having told him, as he has since confirmed to the Committee at Lloyd's, that he had exceeded his time, and • must proceed to J ama i ca with his specie ; but that he should keep in shore, in the track of the homeward bound Jamaica slops, in order to ap prise them of their danger, till he reached the Isle of Pines. Captain Timm speaks very highly of the zeal of Captain Wal cott, but says that one of the expressions he used to him was, that " it was as mach as his commission was worth to stay any longer," a declaration utterly incompatible with the assertion of the Secretary of the Admiralty, that he was directed by Rein- Admiral Rowley to take up a station off the island of Cuba.— The third witness is Captain Barclay, of the ship Belina, bound from Jamaica to London, who writes from the Downs, dated the 7th of October, as follows August the 13th, ip tared off the a t C Industry, on sill piratical ate as i informationnboarded schooner, o rig d ui To o fib' the y his tsl Saddle-hill, Majesty'snl T Vittoria anda roi Both aa Carnation n4pwgt with go ain inc:e Carna tion,Hearn the b w e a e y n t t o o J e ll h iilh eali spe ei c l ie at on th i e ioa f r i t a l. v ' an ' am! Captain Barclay have confirmed the statem e n ts i n t h e i r letters, in personal comnianication. Captain Hearn declares, that Captain'AValcott never gave him the smallest reason to be. lieve that lie was directed to take up a station off the coast of Cuba for the pietection of the trade ; but, on the contrary, the whole time he was on board, he continutal his course for Jamaica, only occasionally going abide out of his way to sp ea k to such vessel s as h lse fell in with, and advised tneni not to make the land of Cuba till they had passed by Saddle-hill. —Captain Hearn further states, that the Carnation might have recaptured the Vittoria (as he was in hopes she would have done), but for the want or her launch, which she had lost at Cam peachy. The Vittoria was lying within the Coloradas ; she drew mote water than the Carnation, which might have ran in before the wind, and have taken possession of her, but could not get out again front among those rocks and reefs, without warping; anti having no boat large enough to carry out an anchor, was Obliged to abandon the enteiTrise. Here, again, is a circumstantial cause oaru certainly s t h e ewn would protection n o ot ; ft evidence, that Capt. Walcott was not directed to cruise offeuba mao•ieleft t i io r e n o u c t lb ra d u O r:ed i ni e se l i a t ir e tt ar un . lia e c tn i k i d t i a l . t d r t he l tn a th t i ni b e e a e l w i . l f .: t a l : l an l io e zn e :n y a le h wp , ar ost i b i t e e r. with his ship, upon a lee shore, after the pirates; nor send a suf ficientpect of success; and lie could not very reasonably expect that they would come out to him in d ee p water , f or t h e very purpose of being captured. Captain Barclay, of the Reline, state;, that when tie Carnation boarded him, on the 12th of August, she was actually on her way to Jamaica, working against the Gulf il; inafdovrmiceat not ion o f to the zn ak ea e p t ture la stream ; while he and the oth er h omewar d - b oun d J ama i ca sh i ps were running in th e opposite direction; that site gave him and tl n ie d n u i sitiroyalid t ie protectionvibttourtia merely,and he e nd o of the Cuba till they had passed Saddle-hill. 'lle fourth witness is 1 Copt, ll,tkingvu t of the Edward Protheroe, bound front Janiaica to Bristol, who, according to the statement he nada on his rival there,which was reported by Mr. Ald. Dan i e l to the Se tary of the Admiralty, had his ship pl u ndered and MO shore by pirates, off Saddle-hill, on the 19th Aussust — the 1 spot on which the Industry and the Vittoria had bete capts on the 7th. This circumstance proves to demonstration thee established by all the former witnesses, that Capt. 'Waken not taken up a s tation in that neighbourhood for the pent of the trade ; and that he was not waiting in that quartet tls, the remaining vessels safe, as asserted by the SesereterY Admiralty, is his letter to the Committee f or tuanaginK the for Lloyd's. In further contradiction of these assertions Secretary of the Admiralty, I may quote the niememll Captain Popplewell, of the ship john Thisbe ; and Captain Cunby, of the Feliza dated the August, off the Ilavannah, and addressed to Sir Rohe a his Majesty's ship Iphigenia 'We the undersisnee, tersof the ships John, Thisbe, and Feliza, actually ,gegu ts ! necessary for the preservation of the property. atutr l) 2p!„ milted to our charge, to put into the Ravenna's; an" this petition to the Captain of any of his Britannic ships that may be in the port; praying that hemay tie ea protection through the Gulf of .Florida. The urdersieu r Captain Reddliese.i. not actuated by any groundless apprehensions attelheuns, been made on the Thisbe on the morning of the: to the Fetes, several times doting the same n i g ht, by 3 g!;f:; schooner rigged vessel, that refused to give any intbraisitos her name, or nation ; and that we only attribute D ur il Y re h safety to keeping close company with each. at her ;i3 O due strong grounds to apprehend a coalition wi ll take i the night, as three schooners are no nw in the otn gst which we.discover to he the vessel that aircrely stte.R' board us." In consequence of this metnoriat 03P te e hl immediatel directed his Majesty's ship Tl:net, t l io ; es vessels safe through the Golf ef Florida. The P ' 0 01 Barclay, and three other ships who kept otnillanY tice, 0 for mutual safety, after lie had spoke the tarn 3 c h i el also dogged for three days by a pirate; and the Revel:lie it Fiott, was boarded on the 18th of Augus t l her dee Cuba, , by two piratical schooners, wli.aplundere. r' J:ea cot hal provisions, sails, boats, the mamastsrisand passeßge that maltreated the crew. All these facts Prove , ' e°t 4t L''' s tion Carnation, Captain Walcott, did not take uP w ait in coast of Cuba, for the protection of the trade, s ire quarter to see the remaining ships safe, but dtst RD ;end too man of war was so stationed, or did so Olt` - saa of trade were left entirely exposed to the der pirates. "If any doubt could possibly it jest, that doubt would be removed, as far is concerned, by the fact of her having Ilai'annah at Jamaica, in about the time passage is usually made. She sailed from the 10 - th of August, and according to th e arrived arrived there on the 4th of September; 1 0 ° it all nautical men, that it requires double the thm the Ila,vannah to Jamaica that is neoessart Jamaica to the Hammitt ; ships havitaSe In ills trade wind and the Gulf stream against latter having both in their favour. With the Secretary of the Admiralty asserts in derman Daniel, that she, as well as his nation, was on the 12th of August last neighbourhood referred to in the above 5+ meat of the plunder,of the Edward " and my Lords hope, that the attention .rilajesty's naval commanders to this point, measures taken by their Lordships, wrlllts pressing these pirates." It the Dotterel 24th of July, and sailed from thence on The Havannali is about two degrees funs. the Dotterel sailed, her course was not tow' opposite direction—for New York. 1 1, ' stream and the trade wind in her favour, she expected to run at the rate of lo knots an lulu' hours after she sailed. Addis this to the H miles distance, between the avannah would be, on the morning of the 12th of immediate neighbourhood referred to as Admiralty states in his letter, but 3;io creasing that distance with all possible the aria .1 - or,[ Gazette, of the 21st of I , in); paragraph :—" Arrived his Britannic te v ju i ra n st n b ah ebre)f t oi o nre l\ pe e nr w ifeetn : w te rth i, eons(e':cap'Ll mll b e o nt a l t r i y i , 4 out. spo k n u in n e ot d h a in y g s . ,! ping, for the protection ail the trade, " these piracies, the Dotterel sailed tool in i i : n .o e ratd d il a il y e s irau w vn l ia ti t : hol • ei much baste, , that she actually made the' ,shortly after, was sixteen days (from the sth pressed by the Lords of the Admiralty, that drawn by his Majesty's naval commander te ti hog of course the commanders of the Cart these piraciee, that neither of them near that point at any future period. at Jamaica on the 4th of September; ... 1; on cording to the Gazette of that islad "i- it and returned again on the 22d, during 01% 3 ‘ 11 utterly impossible for her to gn to the coast of .401_,10 back again; and on the 17th of October she, ''.;011 0 . 1 . ..e, Martha and Carthagena. The Dotterel , on t is w itit spat ber, five weeks after her arrival Nee' V°l- ere lying in Halifax }tabour just a : u'iotlfst, if e ti p i r i res i se a ' a i tish trade to be protected, noryi;lc it :,, o l "'o'e lentil sheentatents directlarcontratliet int"D* l - 4 4. 1 t ': i1 07 Admiralty, dated th e tl f WI( ItOtiOn 9 I •VW are further confirmed b y a dectinte".l e ? ;re , o f his., thority—a letter or addrees (:aptuin it ” t l i t s e n it ierell t hs ship Seringepatem, signed by th e ber th Havannah, and dated the 141 ), o f Deceal F i bre sry following is an extract. (See Tug 5_ . t 1 , 11 ,: : T ie on the pt ter this testimony given by the men '""'' the)' relsOttoo who were eye -witnesses ot the occurrent' . sitei nrets y s s can possibly remain. of the fallacy of, th i e et the the Secretary to the Admiralty, to le tter Sc' 10th of October last. The letters fain ' that tD e hati Admiralty, to which 1 . have referred, state 6 060 y 40 3 of the Admiral commanding on the . I , ° , l lnt since been called to the depredations' i n ' ions fa' ' e s; he had dispatched cruisers to take up e st, se pirti cl A jrle tion of the trade and the suppression ° ti - 00 subsequent letter of his, dated 23d Ne v s ,, t en :Oen 1 :0 4 to the Chairman of the , West India A 7 ,titan a i s in answer to a..memoriel from them to t ',wed plainino. of the piratical depreciations corn% . 0 1p o d Indian th e s ecretar y o f the A thnil l . at rs e r h ' sS Lords are glad to observe that the Assoeut t ed the political circumstances which haste as es,hot of force in the suppression of the mar:lf:go e ,1„0 1 ;htt! quarter." If the exercise of of force wes.ur, s ? ; y, girt serted, it becomes a curious subject of in`,l l - t he il l P means our men of war were to accomplh. these piracies. Were entreaties and supPlorie lofif stead of great guns against these enemies m ote 07 0 01 t —Were these sinners to be converted fo r° , ways, and reclaimed from their depresul . , l , m issieLatti by preaching and praying ? If so, a Set 11 %400 - ge have been more likely to succeed in this stn,_ vo lve, o t his Majesty's naval commanders. Theirbly the Secretary of the Admiralty ha" pr°l lp pre ts 11 61 new and extraordinary s cheme, for die t ', tir o cies without the exercise of force, 0 4,11 goodness to explain to the House. any t ee of the record :. I shall abstain from Ina g i n l i ia P- o sit° vations on the conduct of the Admirtilti, , a aiss st ee strictly to the letters on which I have coult l-- ta tist s; te j tents of which I have, I trust; proved to n' e i.olaß" 1 ca Os. House are inconsistent with truth, an's ;wins do Li upon the public. The Committee for tuan v s a soo Lloyd's felt it their duty to gate to the. 4 1 different information which they had recel y ' s ,.o 4 o. 9 might have been misled by incorrect ter r 'bieso ° oso. them, of the manner in which his illtsit's, t i ei we e d atitß t i station, were actually employed t and e .- g Committee by laying the facts before tllc' ll s stlO portunity of calling the parties who had t i f i r ste eet . l,ol o account for their conduct. In doinglhi s ' a tfeo.„,' et° tee studiously endeavoured to avoid giVing 0 311 merely sent extracts of letters, without Il ea ronelf upon them. The Committee had also tinul a the' ,41 0 2 these communications; they did cxPec t ie ";, ilut!""tr Admiralty could not but observe flan ti con of u c - o rsil ships stated to be employed in th'Po tec , p ied' t Di of d depredations of pirates, were in fact oell e : , „ 4 , Cu, for the emolument Of their Coimllat7„ a is IA 0 1 t 7 p miral on the station ; I au.. Lel trusteit.‘o;ottesf more particularly remark, that the y o odo . „' from one foreign port to wither, an r o t* • . • 1; but tD liability, carrying specie, not Britis s eJ bat a then onth of April last,' the Committee; , wa s , i ,stbo .tlioliornnkge ralty, that prolection against piretes na`.' in t he 5;4.; of all nations, by the American cruis ers "d e r he r ; Of Cuba ; that one of theni had, taken I:or: 4 0 0 ber of vessels bound from the Havant' his alS os ist t requested that ordets might be sent ! D a ; but, als that station, to grant similar peoteettn nas ose e es tev received was, " Their Lordships eafotber r of pre., ships to grant protection to the shiPs "... sta tion cetteeyto ; this first denial to a request far the P res "' t , sre, a aa pt and cargoes, in which British in° p r itai" . t many of diem are insured in Greal,nootieo °., 4 ,40 pr considerations of humanity alone, it :4 an vu' benefits received, might. have ine I n toe y oft e ir_,.. ; l Codunittee trusted that the ine n h r :; s inds ° t for to foreign specie would occur to t" time pas and that this trade, which for some lid so ww, L o the depr'edstions ot t hi s $ ibly Notion on I, as far as lthe Carnall, having, try t h e time in whirl lied fron t the 1130 ; to t he J a maks 601 tr ; and it is wen kA O 1 ble tha ti me to.bestuLt coessari to s in bra V inVin#, in tiltVoloo,ol 1 110111 St theril, 10 4 0 'ith respect to the 11 06 is in los letter to 31. t.) as his 31ajeity's 04 t at last in th igloo, love statemnt"e llteij Protheroeotri4o.,4 .cation OW iltagn point, tok:ther with l it will have the wt of l' be W' Unveil:4lV tterl arrivc.Nl then: al on the I Ith of Aug from tiatt(ile•hill,FDdl' not wworas it, but ins! :. Ilsvitti; both theti, air, she might ressonsP!. 110 V 3 an hour, or .24011; ; to the two &gee, °I sash and athile-Ilgiti l2th of Augusts o °‘ , 1 1. to as the ROW , 3;10 miles frotn it, r dt " sible celeritY. 1,1,wii4 ;t of August, it .w.,' p tarinic, majesty' 14:t. days frOin the 10 ': thing." SO 6 treol:,,' ade, or the supp .4 I away from ttl_ i e s l e i lo the poor ir k is t , which th e lithroisi in the sth to tne •i unable to the7 l unfavo - t1 rally, that ibe stqlu(os Mandel' to diis eta° etc the Carnati° i'4'olo4l ave thipoitolict 00' me , i .eut J os sfro led 04" ce . $lO-4°' ilieli 1 43 'er ; • . 0 0 00 he and, do u t 0 1 0% rind witidi idl 10 , Am,"