The Sun. — London, England, 1852-12-17 00:00:00

residing in' Ireland, and yet there was no other deer- in that recommendation, was I justified in recommending ence between the two, fo r th e Irish fundholder could that the repayments should take their place in the ways transfer his stocks to the English funds when he pleased, and means ? These are the two issues in this matter bo and the owner of English funds could do the same with fore the committee; I trust I have stated them f a i r ly. regard to th e I r i s h f un d s. Th e ru l e l a id d own by Sir R. I Peel was, that no deduction was to be m a d e t o th e Irish must advert briefly to th e or i g i n o f thi s d epartment of d the Public Works Loan C omm i ss i on , w hi c h on t h e former fundholder when in Ireland, but when th e f un d crossed the Channel a deduction was t o b e ma d e. I t was with occasion I adverted to cursor il y . I o b serve d t h en that this that exemption the Chancellor of the Exchequerproposed department had its origin in circumstances exactly the re to deal. Then came the interesting and constitutional verse of those under which it now exists, and was occa question of whether they ought or ought not to subject,the sioned by causes which now no longer operate. At the 101. householders to the tax paid by the 201. house- Peace, there being a surplus population and a deficient ca holders, and he had been unable to discov er a s h a d ow o f j argument during this debat e to justify the Parli amen t of pital, the labour- mar k e t th roug h ou t th e country b e i ng sud this country in exempting that class from the operation denly disturbed, an d th e l a b ourers l e t l oose on soc i ety, the of a tax which was admitt e d to b e a just one, which was amount of unemployed • labour being aggravated by a body established because it was a w i se mode of obtaining re- o f 200 , 000 seamen and soldiers all at once disbanded, the venue, admitted of no evas i on and was easel collected. Government of that day felt it ne cessar y t o t a k e some ef y (Hear.) No clear or satisfactory argument had been fectual and artificial means of employing that surplus offered to show that it was a constitutional thine- that population. It is not necessary for us to enter into any some 350,000 electors, holding political power, should discussion as to the policy or impollcy of such a proceeding. net contribute to the direct taxation of the country. Probably political economists might not approve of it— (Cheers.) The hon. and learned gentleman (Sir A. probably statesmen under circumstances so urgent, though Cockburn) had said that they contributed something to they might not approve o f it, m i g ht h ave b een f orced to indirect t axa ti on. Well, but so did the 20/, house- was founded, w hi c h, b y th e cre di t holders ; an d upon what principle were the 10/. house- have recourse to such a measure . B u t un d er that impres holders to p ossess t h e franchise, and outvote the former, slo e- th, t establishment when they did not pay direct taxes ? Upon what prin- of Exchequer-bills issued by the State, raised money and employed ' ciple was a l arge b o d y of men holding supreme• political that money in wh a t i s ca ll e d " pu bli c wor k s. " power enabling them to tax other people—why were they That system went on for, I think, nearly 15 years. Nearly not to be equally taxed themselves ? Mr. M'Culloch had 3,000,0001. of Exchequer-bills had been issued, and those been quoted upon this subject, and this write; in the which had been so issued for that purpose were not of so course of his observations upon the house tax, made a favourable a character in the market as the usual sup reflection bearing upon the very point before the commit tee, recording an op i n i on, ply of Excheq uer -bill s ; an d it was found necessary would dissent, that he wasfrom which no unprejudiced or convenient to t erm i na t e th e system. In the year man in this country u to apprehend w hy or w h erefore the political Erse:- t 1842, the point fro m w hi c h we d epart, the account was ake l of that fund. appearedlt at that time th a t i n roun d were at the sa me ti me t o b e exempt from contributing to chile was t o b e g i ven to t h e 10/. householders, while they numbers the sum of 3,000,0001. had been raised by Exche the house t ax . (Ch eers.) No authority could be quoted suer bills thus issued ; th a t o f th a t sum 2,000,0001. had against this opinion, and if this, as he believed, were the been paid off, and that 1,046,0001. remained at that time great question now before them, why should the hon. " unsettled," if I may use the expression ; and to close the and learned gentleman imagine that he would argue the transaction they were funded. From that period, by act committee out of their convictions by telling them that of Parliament, it was arranged that instead of loans raised the 101. householders were so averse to the proposition, o n Exchequer-bills, the same commissioners, for the same and certain boroughs so objected to it, that the members purpose, should re c ei ve a sum o f money to the amount of for those plac es wou ld be afraid to look their constituents 360,000/. a year f rom th e conso lid ated fund. T h e sum in the face if th e y vo t e d f or t h e i ncrease of the tax ? This which we have to d ea l w ith i s 3 00,0001., for by a subsequent principle, if carr i e d ou t, wou ld b e a d ea dl y b low to Par arrangement 60,0001., a po r ti on o f th a t sum, was transferred presentations representation ions would ; but he trusted that su c h re. not influence the c om m itt ee , an d to the use of I re l an d on l y f or pu bli c works ; and with that that, if they were of opinion that the tax was a just one, Ido not propose to deal. I hope to put before the com they would vote for extending it, and would not be af- mittee clearly these dry details. Well, now, sir, the right fected by other considerations than by a sense of what lion. member for Carlisle has dilated in almost moving was due to their own judgment, their own self-respect, terms upon the benefit of that fund, especially to the cor ers . and to the good of their country. (Cheers.) try - gentlemen. He has eulogised its good administe et as„ Lord DR UIVILANRIG reminded the committee that the unpaid commissioners, whose respectable 'and re the Scotch agriculturists, at least, had not been in the by - spected names he read to the committee; not s h ou ld h e habit of publicly asking for relief in consequence of le,gis have forgotten, though he omitted it I am sure only from lative changes, and he would appeal to hon. members whether Scotland deserved to be singled out in order inadvertence, to have recorded, also, the, tames of the re whose perform to be victimised by this budget, for the purpose of al- spected officials connected with that' be overlooked lowing the right hon. gentleman to extend to some few ance of their duties should not, I e;as n k, bo upon other sub and favoured localities remission of the malt tax ? (Oh, this moment, whatever our opini en may oh !) Yes, but h e object e d to a n extension of the jects. lam willing to adr.at that as far as those unpaid house tax to enable the Government reduce half the commissioners and those sedulous officials are concerned, duty upon malt. Up to the present moment few farmers in Scotla n d p a id th e h ouse tax, b ut now very there are few bl o t s i n c he administration during a l ong pe rind of that fund by them. On the contrary, I think they few would escape either that or the income tax. The have deported tnemselves with unimpeachable asshl budget seemed to him op en t o grea t objection, and it and care. Sir, the right hon. gentleman passing o i n, u has should' have his opposition. (Hear.) dilated upon the importance of this fund, especially to the Colonel BL AIR believed the budget as a whole had country gentlemen. With this fund, accordine in hi m been favourably received in Scotl an d_ a t l eas t it h a d ericlges were built, union workhouses were erected, lunatic' been so in the county he represented, which was not svlerme aed public gaols arose- - one of the smallest in that country. (Rosa) He de- Sir J. GRAHAM : I said "workhouses enlarged," no 4 nied that there was anything like compensation in th -Ht." scheme beyond what the farmers had a right, in any adjustment of taxation, to expect---(" hear hear," from the opposition)—and lie was by no means sure they would be satisfied with that. (Loud cries of " hear. hear," from the same side.) But this he could say, that the farmers would not begin the agitation. (Cheers.) Mr. G. H. MOORE said with regard to the consoli dated annuities a great fraud had been exercised some where, and the charge rested between the Irish candidates and her Majesty's Government. The gentle men of Ireland were indignant at this matte; while the landlords and farmers of Ireland mainly concurred with him in the expression of opinion he was now uttering, and he had no hesitation in telling Irish members oppo site that if they succeeded in extending the income tax to Ireland they should never contest an Irish constitu ency again. (Hear, hear.) Hitherto they had suc ceeded in contesting the constituencies of the sister kingdom under false pretences and in canvassing Irish gentlemen under false pro Mises, but he had this conso lation, that if they should be instrumental in carrying this budget it would be universally said in Ireland, and truly said too, that they had deserted the interest of their country for the purposes of faction. Mr. PEACOCK concurred with the spirit of the resolution, but he reserved to himself the right of here after resisting its details if they were not amended. With regard to the extension of the income tax to Ire land, it was manifestly unjust to confine it to incomes derivable from the funds ; it should be extended alike to land and property as well as the funds, Ile should oppose the repeal of half the malt tax, be cause it would injure the revenue without in any way benefiting the consumer. In fact, he agreed with the hon. member for Cambridgeshire, who the other day chanted the dirge of protection—and no more appropri ate mourner could have been found—and who, while doing so, took occasion to observe that any benefit the farmers might derive from this part of the budget would be more than counterbalanced by the diminution in the Import duties upon foreign malt. (Hear, hear.) So car as the house tax was concerned, he had no objection whatever to extending it to 101. householders. Taxa tion and representation should be made, as far as pos sible, co-existent ; and while the 101. householder was invested with : ale franchise, he could see no reason why he should not be called upon to contribute to the house tax like his neighbour, whose rent was 201. a year. (Hear, hear.) There was an analogy between the posi tion of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and that of Sir Robert Peel in 1842. Both proposed to reduce taxation upon articles of consumption at once, and to leave it for the future to impose a tax like the income tax or the house tax to make up the deficiency in the /venue. The plan was successful in 1842, and he firmly believed it would succeed in the present instance. (Hear, hear.) Sir F. BARING concurred with Sir C. Wood and Mr- Goulburn in thinking that the reduction of the malt duty would produce but little benefit ; that the surplus of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was a very doubtful one ; that the application of the income tax to the Irish funds was a breach of public faith ; and that the finances of the country would be left by the budget in a position not sufficiently secure. He discussed with considerable fulness the principles and details of the house tax, and then examined the proposed modifications of the income tax, pointing at various practical anomalies and incon gruities in their application to different species of in come, and he contended that, if there was an honest intention on the part of the Government to carry out their principles, the resolutions must be withdrawn and reconstructed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who was received with loud cheering from the Ministerial benches, said,—After four nights of criticism, conducted by some of the most considerable reputations in this house, on the propositions that I have laid on the table of the committee, I now rise to vindicate those propositions. (Hear, hear.) If in the observations, which I will endeavour to condense as much as Isan, I omit any remarks which have been urged against those propositions, I hope the committee will ascribe that negligence to inadvertence, and not to design. Having listened with all the respect and attention naturally due to such words from such lips, I can con scientiously say that I have listened to nothing that, in my opinion, has successfully impugned the policy which I recommended—(hear, hear)—and I am prepared to meet the objections which have been urged, and to show to the committee that those objections are entirely unfounded and illusory. (Hear, hear.) When, with the great in dulgence of the house on Friday week, I attempted to make a general exposition of the policy of the Government —when, exhausting, lam conscious, the patience of the house, as well as myself—(hear, hear)—l endeavoured in the fulfilment of my duty to give, not estimates, but such information as was necessary as to the effect of the extra ordinary expenditure and the extraordinary resources that I anticipate on the revenue of next year and the year im erkediately following. I did not enter into these details which are necessary to substantiate the accuracy of what I sta ted ; I felt that at that moment the house was too exhausted to listen to those details; I felt that I should un dergo the scrutiny of persons well competent to in eval.istdate that accuracy, if inaccuracy could be proved to with l 'th"d I felt that I should have the opportunity, "tici %Permission of the house, of answering such first Z ee in due time, (Hear.) I will, therefore, in the ' a ddress myself to estimate whi h I ad generally as e o the c e • effect of the t se he alterations on the revenue of the tw o will apply myself in which are under disc uss i on ; an d I the first instance, to the two impor tant arraialme 't"f my course, and of the policy which I recommend, whichere made principally by the right hon. member for Halifax. e a ad which, I will address myself to that sum of 400,000 s to the , eo under the name of repay ments, I recommend au rnittee to adopt and to part of the way s sanction as year. That proposed course w as at onces of the impending right hon. member for the Univer s se y,an d a en a o nneed ley the guage and in a tone somewhat unusaas, oorta s i ai l led in lan- Parliamentary, by the right hon. member for ri n a y lif n a o x t very instead of addressing his observations to y ou, air h ; r , dressed, throughout his speech, his obse rvations to 'neo fo On a subsequent occasion, a right hon. gentleraae_ a y g s reat authority in this house—entered with minuteness, and with the adv an t age w hi c h d a ys of meditation o n the subject " gave him, into the same topic, enlarging minuteness which was not observed in the attack of the right hon. member for the University, and scorned by the right hon. member for Halifax. These three great autho rities have combined to influence the opinion of the com mittee on the subject. lam not sure whether a third ex- Chancellor of the Exchequer has touched on it, for, unfor tunately, I was absent from the house during part of the time ho was addressing the committee. Probably, how however, he did not spare me any more than his right hon. friends have done. It is for sue to treat the subject—if the committee will, as I have no doubt after these attacks it will, give me its kind and patient attention—(hear, hear)—in a manner to show that the proposition I made have a very different character and complexion from what the committee has been taught to believe. (Hear, hear.) There are two points in this subject before the house ; first, was I justified in recommending that the establishment in question should be abolished ? Secondly, if I was justified The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—IV ell. en a-gecl ; the right hon. gentleman may have the benefit of ea cosrection. (A laugh.) Certainly he talked of that lied circulating to the constant advantage of the landed interest, and he asked, "If that ass i s t ance i s withdrawn, a - hat are they t o d o ?" " Why has he touched it," said the right hon. gentleman ; " not a single shilling has boon lest —why has he touched it ?" Now, sir, of a fund of this nature there is one observation to make of an abstract cha racter, which should not be omitted. This fund proposed to offer to lend money at a higher rate of interest than the rate prevailing in what is called " the money market." According t o the right hon. mem b er f or Halifax that was in order that the money market should not be disturbed. (A laugh.) The rules of the loan fund were these —that for all undertakings in which profit was concerned 5 per cent. was to be charged, and for all undertakings in which Profit was not concerned 4 per cent. only was to be charged. The first and natural consequence of any department lend in.. money at a high er ra t e o f i nterest than the natural rate of the money market is, that the first-rate securities will not apply, for first-rate securities will not pay 5 per cent. or 4 per cent. if they can get their money at 34 per cent. ; Pad if your funds are employed the chance is that your security is second-rate security. (Hear, hear.) Well now, sir, I have here ample information as to the manner in which those funds were employed as regards the country gentlemen ; but I have no wish to enter into any details to show that in many instances those advances might not or ought not to have been made. At this moment the country gentlemen are not applying for any great amount of that fond, for the reason which my right hon. friend the Secre tary of State for the Home Department adverted to the other evening--viz., that they cannot afford to pay so high a rate of interest for the loan which is afforded them. (Cheers.) But, sir, the objection to this department has nothing to do with the circumstances on the surface, to which the right hon. member for Carlisle has adverted, and only adverted. The question is one of a much deeper cha racter, and now, perhaps, the committee will permit me to inform them under what circumstances and by what rea son my attention was drawn tothis loan fund. Sir, I found in revising the public accounts of the country a department, and a department of no great mark, with a very large bal ance of the public money unemployed, amounting, when it first attracted my attention, and I believe at this moment, to upwards of 380,0001., lying perfectly idiL It is no doubt a rule, which I should think no gentleman opposite will iaupugn, that large balances of the public money lying idle are a feature which ought not to be encouraged, and which ought to be inquired into. But I found that with the large amount of balance there was a law in existence that per emptorily every quarter of a year increased it by the sum of 90,0001., less the amount paid to Ireland; and it became therefore my duty to inquire why so large a balance re mained unproductive--what was the object of thatbalance —what had been effected by that fund, and what might be the consequences of its remaining in its present state? The right hon. baronet said, in a manner which he did not in any way qualify—which, in fact, was almost the basis of his appeal, if not of his argument—that not a single shil ling had been lost—that under the innocent managementof those respected names which he appealed to, and those worthy officials wh ose serv i ces I h ave presumed to notice, the simple country gentlemen have been benefited—that that revolving fund had raised our gaols and enlarged our unions, and after 30 or 40 years' experience, not a single shilling mind you has been lost—" Why does he touch it?" (Cheers.) Now I must inform the committeethat the riarl'i ti hon. gentleman, in the minute statementwhich he gave a:: t hi s department, omitted all the most important facts. o I doubt not, sir, th a t if a f und had b een intrusted or:iy_ t respect able unpaid commissioners of such habits e r a life as were re ferred to by the right hon. gentleman. devoted only to the worthy and laudable purposes whicta the right hon. gentle man described as the sole object of its investment, I doubt not that though there might have been an occasional job unconsciously perpetrated, and an occasional bad security inadvertently taken, r.,G that no very serious consequences world have elapsed. (Renewed cheers,) But, sir, with so convenient a fund. at their disposal, there was another party to interfere be - aid e the respectable commissioners, and the fund has baen employed for purposes very different from those of ray hon. friends near me—the country gnceentl of England. (Cheers) With these large bala and funds an o th er i nfluence has interfered, very - briefly alluded luded to iry one of those ri g ht h on. gentlemen who have spoken on. the subject. "We all know how convenient it is to the Minister," said the right hon gentleman, " to have at a par ticular moment such a fund at his command ;" and I will show the committee how convenient it has been to the Minister to have that fund at his command. (Cheers from the Ministerialists.) And I will show to the committee what flagrant misappropriation there has been of the funds of this country, and how immense an amount of money has been squandered away, virtually without the cognizance and control of Parliament, and entirely by the machinery of this Public Works Loan Fund. Now, sir, "it is excessively convenient," says the right hon. gentleman. There are mo ments when even I, with my brief experience of office, which seems so much envied—(cheers)—when even I may experience the convenience of such a fund. Well, I don't know what I may come to ' • but certainly, du r i ng th e short period that I h ave had the honour of presiding over the Exchequer, I had not the slightest idea that I was to avail myself of such an opportunity. (A laugh.) This, now, is the way in which my predecessors have availed themselves of such opportunities. I shall put the question simply before the committee, whether they think that a department ought to be encouraged for the reasons urged by the right hon. member for Carlisle, or whether I have taken a judicious course in attempting to terminate its existence. I leave that to the decision of the committee. Now, air, iat ar.a-aapiaaaa tar., the Mimeter of the d a y s make no ch arge o f any Minister of any party—m observa tions are ge nera l—h ow the Minister of the day ha y has availed himself of the public funds, virtually, as I shall show you, without the cognisance of Parliament, and how immense sums have been squandered without even the hon. member for Montrose, I believe, being aware of it. (A laugh,) Now, I take a case, and there are many other illustrations lof the same thing. I take the case of the Thames Tunnel. I Now, there is a body of ingenious men who resolve to make a tunnel under the Thames. Well, it is a great triumph, of scientific enterprise, and much to the honour of the Eng lish character, that such an undertaking should have been entered into without, of course, the slightest chance of ever getting the smallest interest for the money. It is only in England that such things are undertaken, and such enter prises encouraged. (A laugh.) However, there are mo ments when even the most enthusiastic in the enterprise begin to think that public assistance is required. Ap peals are made to the Minister. Those appeals are stengthened and supported by powerful Parliamentary in fluence. A bill is brought into Parliament on a sub ject which interests nobody, and it allows the undertakers of that public enterprise, the members of a public com pany, to raise money. Who of the 650 members has an eye on a bill of that kind ? Probably not five men in the house, unless they are directors of the company, are aware of it. That bill contains a clause permitting the Lords of the Treasury to advance from the Public Works Loan Fund a sum by way of loan to carry out the projects of that company. The bill is passed. Being passed the Promoters go to the Treasury —I am now speaking of the Thames Tunnel Company —they go to the Treasury by vir tue of that clause. The Lords of the Treasury advance, by Way ofloan, through the machinery of the Public Works Loan Fund , no less a sum than 250 ,0001. to the Th ames paid Tunnel—(cheers)—notshilling of which h as ev e r b een re or a can ever be repaid—(hear, hear)—and on which, I a h , el _ ie , v _ e 2 o O na nly A per cent., which is received probably as an Treasu ry , isr;aemto the tunnel, has ever been given to the that_ to oom whichmiatPuneratm.'rzhbaleitepslenasnaty,ii) w it. with regard to the sy s t e i s o h di e. v H id ou o s a e ls o h f a C vo om a m rig on h s t toto do o thgre f at c :f folly If a Minister comes forward and e Th mmons to vote 250,000/, to make a .at least we have the glory of l.for thee, aject, and though you may think ; t a r t o s tr i n n e t g l h 2 e ll so n li d , e ooo 7 that 259,0001. might be employed.more useful, elevating Ind rational-purpose ;at least there istrleu opportunity of pa ies of the house. 4p pealing to the reason and the s l em no one is the least (Hear, hear.) But under thistOs 4 yes eim e , r b s u . )t oNow l e t n h t i s ? aa-are that 250,000/. is lent. It is a grant in the shape of a loan. is one of the cases by which 2450,000/. and its accumulated I will give one interest have been lost to the country. snore instance, and it is one of recent interest, lam THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVIINING, ashamed to say that I have been a member of Parliament during the time in which this instance occurred, and I dare say a vast majority were. Its date is from 1847 to 1850, and it makes me blush even at this moment. (A laugh.) Now, this is well deserving the attention of the committee, because there is no reason why almost this very night or the next night the same operation may not be going on—there is not the least reason why under this ma chinery we may not every week be voting 100,0001. of th e public money without a sin g l e member being cognizant of it. The case which I will now call your attention to is that of Battersea Park. (Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, lam far from saying that it may not be the duty of the Govern ment toestablish parks for the community. Ido not want to enter into that great question now ; but I think it is a question whether the inhabitants of the district should not at least contribute their quota, and whether it may not be perfectly legitimate, in a great metropolis like this, that the central authority should aid in a purpose which contributes to the ornament and health of the general population. (Hear, hear.) It is perfectly legitimate for the Minister to come forward and propose a vote of 150,0001., or even more, to make a park at Battersea or anywhere else. The house in such an event has the ques tion fairly before it, and may consider it in all its details, and if it sanction it, although the speculation may be im provident, and the object not worth the investment, yet no one can complain or the result. Let me inform the committee what occurred in the case of Battersea-park. A bill was brought into Parliament, as usual, empowering certain individuals to buy land at Battersea, and to make a park. A clause was put into the bill—not compulsory, mind you, but permissive —to enable the Lords cf the Treasury, if they thought fit, to advance from the Public Works Loan Fund such a sum as they might think proper for the ad vancement of the object in question. The projectors of Bat tersea-park, with that bill which nobody had ever seen, and that clause—(a right hon. member, "It was a public bill") —yes, a public bill, of course, but it does not follow foa m that that five persons in the house knew what was go egg on —(hear, hear)—they go the Treasury, and whet-. occurs ? They have an advance from the Treasury of . 150,000/ . don't ask who was the Chancellor of th:d Exchequer that sanctioned that, n o t w ith s t an di ng f t sae interruption that was raised. Th a t i s a s t at istics . :, fact ; and, of all the speculations that man ever egg- , „„ ed i n, no speculation wa s ever so absurd as th a t of Battersea Park. The p ersons who undertook the enter-use were totally i gnoran t o f a ll the ci rcumstances with. - which they had to deal. Th e y purchased a grea t d er ' - which they left so ril e , s of land, and m a d e arrangements b y return that ght a margin to th e G overnment as a 21) ful, before r th ,- , ears must elapse, even if they are success receive any rents ; and the slight margin that is left ,all never defray the sum that is already due for ! , coorsealated. interest ; for, mind you, they must be r, per cent. to the Public Works Loan Fund all the tim 's* - -that is to say, acknowledging a debt which they r seser pay. The interest is added up every half-year, and it now amounts, I think, to 12,0001. (Hear, hear,) Now, Sir, I will not go further into any details of other instances. I have only done my duty in bringing them before the committee. I have here in my hand, from the year 1824 till 1840, a catalogue of parallel instances, and the whole additional amount is very little short of 100,0001.. every shilling of which has been lost to the country. (Cheers.) "Not a single shilling has been lost," said the right hon. gentleman. "Why has he touched it?" (Renewed cheers.) Well, I've given him now the " reason why "—(cheers)— and I think the committee will agree, whatever they may think of the further merits of the question, that in stopping a system so iniquitous I was only doing my duty as a gu ar di an o f the public purse. Yet this is the system which. according to the right hon. gentleman, is administered by Lord Overstone and lent to the country gentlemen—(loud cheers from the Ministerialists)—all for building lunatic asylums at 4 per cent.. which the Secre tary of State tells you the county of Worcester can build at 3 per cen t . I n fact, irresneetive of the flagrant . rcam stances which I have brought before the committee. time had virtually done that for the Public Works Loan Fund, which an indignant Chancellor of the Ex c h equer oug h t to have don e long ago. A loan fund lending at 5 and 4 per cent., founded upon the assumption that there was surplus labour and deficient capital in an age when there w as a deficien c y o f l a b our and a plethora of capital, really had come to its natural on d ; and that is the cause of those large balances which must necessarily be swollen each quarter by the increment from the Exchequtr. They have. in fact with these rapidly accumulating funds, been led almost to force their leans upon the Irish railways. But here the Commissioners come into play, and take care that the security shall be of the best description. And that which has happened within a very recent period will per haps astonish the house; but such is the effect of the pre sent, acid I believe the permanent state of the money mar ket, that an Irish railway company that had asked for the assistance of a very large sum indeed, have announced they will not take the loan, because they find they have a good security, and can receive assistance in the way of an ordinary loan. (Hear, hear.) Under these circum stances I felt it my duty to bring before the attention of my colleagues the state of this department--(hear)—and I called to their notice, that not only was there this waste of public money, but that there was no security against its continuance. That waste, too, has taken place during a period of several years when you have not been able to siren up your courago to vote 150,0001. for a National Gallery—(hear, hear)—and we came to a conclusion that it would be a good thing to relieve the censolidated fund from this annual charge, and stop the machinery by which such a ruinous and unprincipled waste of the public money took place. (Hear.) Then the question arose, what were we to do with the repayments which every year came in when the issue was stopped, and which repayments t placed in my estimate at 409,000/. The right hen. gentle man the member for the University of Cambridge seemed to correct me as to the sum paid being 330,000/. ; but he confused the issue from the consolidated fund with the re , ayments in a way that, with his experience as a Chan cellor of the Exchequer, I was astonished to hear ; but the fact is that the annual amount issued•from the consolidated fund is no measure of the amount of repayments. But the queition arose, what were we to do with these repayments? Were we to pay this 400,009/. into the balance of the Exchequer ? That Was the first question. It is of the utmost importance that the balance of the Exchequer should be high. That is a very great principle. But, after all, the balances in the Exchequer are nothing more than balances of the nation with its bankers, and the same rule must apply with a nation and its banker as with a private individual and his banker. (Hear.) Whether you bank with Messrs. brum mond or with the Bank of England, neither Would allow you any interest on those balances. It is Necessary, there fore, for the nation, as for a private individual, to have a good, ample, and sufficient balance ; but it is inexpedient to have an excessive balance, and the consequence has been th!tt the highest a u th or iti es, those most favourable to re taining a sufficient balance in the exchequer,have laid doyen what may be considered even as a rule and regulation for the amount of such b a l ance, There is a certain point which it is considered most inexpedient your balance in the Exchequer should surfeseunt. The state of your balances in the Exchequer it this :—They had long ago arrived at year of egreat, that point, at Present they exceed it, and have done so for some time, Ever since 1842, with the exception of tint startling, and unexpected vicissibides, the b alsz"ces in the Exchequer have been very high, and higher t han recommended by the highest authorities. The proof et that is that certainly, with the exception of 1848 and 1849, never, from the period I have mentioned, has there been any occasion to borrow money to receive any ac commodation from our bankers —that is to say, at the the end of every quarter, when the dividends were about to be paid, there has always been in the Bank a balance sufficient to discharge the claims of the public cre ditor, and leave a sum ample enough for all the contin gencies of the nation. Since 1849, with one exception, when I think a sum of, 4001. or 5001. was paid for deficiency bills, and that only from a technical mistake, we have never been under the necessity of appealing to our bankers. The committee will then understand, that if the 400,000/. had been paid in to the balance of the Exchequer, it would in the present state of affairs have been just the same as locking up that sum in an iron chest—(hearl—it stenld have been immovable and unprofitable, (Mar, hear.) I must ask the indulgence of the committee while I enter into these details. Treasury finance is a subject with which the house is not very versant, but I hope the house will not think me presumptuous in attempt ing to instruct them upon it. I was not born and bred a Chancellor of the Exchequer —I am one of the Parlia mentary-rabble--(hear, and laughter)—but I trust, after all the observations I have made, it will be seen that I do know something on this subject. (Hear, hear.) I think it is quite clear that the right hon. gentleman the member for Halifax was not in favour of 400 000/. Exche quer, eitshisownunpyrooufitatlat ;wbhuent bthroeugrihgthtinhtoon.the being paid in t o th e b alance of the Exchequer, because E xcgentlemanhe says, " The proper thing to do with it is this , the ' right ought to go to re d uce the debt." And hon. gentle man th e member for the 'University of Cambridge echoes that—and lam 'glad to hear that admission, because the Government think the same. (Hear, and a laugh.) In a recent transaction, 1,000,000/• debt was created by funding Exchequer-bills in 1842, and, therefore, say theright hon. baronet and the right hon. gen tleman, you ought to reduce the debt, both being against this sum being paid in to the balance of the Exchequer. Now, let us examine this question of the reduction of the debt. Upon this subject there is very great ignotance pre valent in this house. I have been asked mvself, " What do you leave for the reduction of the debt ?In your finan cial statement you have left nothing.' The mode, method, and means by which the sinking fund is acted upon, and the public debt of the eemitry is liuidn.ted, does not de- pend on the will of the Mi n i s t er, or acr vote of the House of Commons :it is provided for by the Legislature. The law has prescribed the method by which you reduce the public debt of this country. There is only one way to reduce it, and the law has prescribed this—l b eg th e attention of the house, because this is a vital point—(hear, hear)—the law, I say, prescribes that every quarter an account shall be taken of our income and expenditure at the Treasury the surplus shall be ascertained, and one-fourth of that it surplus shall be instantly d evo t e d t o th e li quidation of the public eht, or t o th e ac ti on o f t h e s i nk i ng fund. It is nothing in the discretion of th e Mi n i s t er, or o f a single House of Par- Han - lent ; the law is inexorable and imperative. It is totally impossible one can act on the debt and reduce it, unless you bring money into the ways and means. (Hear, hear.) It is only in such a way it can enter into the bal ance struck of income and expenditure, and that the sur plus can be ascertained, and one-fourth of the surpl us ap propriated to the reduction of the debt. (Hear, hear.) And now I will show you how I have acted on the debt in the way in which I have recommended Parliament to deal with this 400,0001, of repayments. The house will assume, for the sake of my argument, that my surplus for the com ing year is an annual one. I will show the house how that surplus will st an d. Th e account or income and expendi ture is taken at the end of the first quarter of the financial year. The surplus is 400,0001. One fourth of that is im mediately devoted to the reduction of the debt. The same ceremony takes place every three months—the same action takes place on the surplue of 400,0001., and at the end of the year the whole of the 400,000/. is devoted to the reduction of the debt. (Hear, hear.) And in three years' time, all things remaining the same, and the repay ments entering into the Treasury, the whole of that sum of funded Exchequer-bills of 1 ,000,000/., and the accumu lated interest, will be liquidated, and th e pu b l i c debt reduced by th a t amount. (Hear, hear.) There is no other way of acting on the public debt or reducing it. By the course I have recommended I have put an end to a disas trous waste of public money. In the second place, I have relieved the consolidated fund from an annual payment of 300,0001. ; and, in the third place, I have laid the founda tion of a reduction of the public debt by that 1,000,0001., and all its a ccumu l a ti ons. ( Hear, hear.) Then the ques tion assumes a very different character when this is ex plained ; but this is only an account of what I have done. Let us see what great authorities have said on this subject. Hitherto, as I have put the case, the house may be of opinion that I have acted discreetly or wisely, hut unpre cedentedly. After the criticisms I have been subjected to before, let me inform the house what was the opinion on this subject of the highest authorities. In 1822 a select committee was appointed to inquire into the public ac counts, and to recommend the means y which the k of those accounts might be improved ; b and to that commit- tea we are indebted, with scarcely any exception, for all the forms of public accounts that now prevail. What was the rcommendation of the committee of 1822 with regard to these advances f.nd repayments ? That committee, formed of the most distinguished men, concentrating their atten tion upon this sole subject, specifically recommended that all advances and repayments should enter into the accounts of income and expenditure - -(cheers)—and for six years the advances and repayments figure in the public accounts. It may be said tier° was another committee of public ac counts in 1828, and that they took a different view. That would not invalitate the high authority of the committee of 1822 ; it woult not deprive me of the authority that the course I have taken is not unprecedented, because I have proved that it Wrii: practised for six years. But let us in quire what was the opinion of the committee of 1828. They recommended that it would be more convenient that advances and repayments should be kept in separate ac counts from those of the income and expenditure. But I am informed, and I believe correctly, by a most distin guished member of that committee, that the recommenda tion did not arise at all from any difference of opinion in the principles brought into controversy on this subject, and they added this to their - recommendation, that when ever the issues were stopped and the accounts were closed, then the general account was to be taken, and they were to revert to their aid position in the public accounts. Well, Sir, I now approach the second great arraignment of my financial statement that was made by the right hon. mem ber for Halifax with respect to the grave mistake that I had Made in the estimate for the year after next, as to the deficiency which would accrue to the revenue from the proposed semi-repeal of the malt duty. (Hear, hear.) The house will recollect that I placed in my estimate as the loss which I believed would occur in the year 1854-5 from the alteration of the malt duty the sum of 1,700,0001. The right hon. member for Halifax said the loss on the malt duty must be at least 2 ,500,0001., taking, of course, the most depreciatory view of the result of the re duction of the duty. He placed the duty as low as 200,0001., and he said, " Y ou will get 200,0001. by your Scotch drawback, and other things, which will reduce the loss to 2,100,0001." Sir C. WOOD—I gave you credit for 200,0001. Mr. DISRAELI—That is what I stated. (Cheers.) But the funds, the obstinate funds—(a laugh) —are above par, when they ought to be at a discount, and the national credit is good. (Laughter.) Now, when I brought under the consideration of the committee the subject of the re peal of the malt tax, I said that the Government had fol lowed in their treatment of that tax the recommendation of the Roy a l C omm i ss i oners ofExcise Inquiry, presided over by Sir H. Parnell, in 1832. The recommendation of those com missioners was, that in case there was ever free trade in barley, one-half the malt tax should be repealed, and that the Scotch and Irish drawbacks should be terminated. In the interval, since that commission sat, the Irish have voluntarily renounced their drawback. The commissioners further recommended that, when free trade in barley was established, and the malt tax was reduced to one-half, an end should be put to the enormous and preposterous system of credit given to maltsters. I said that we wished to follow the recommendation of those eminent men the members of the Excise Commission as nearly as possible ; but we thought it lii[thly important, in following the recom mendation of the commission as to the reduction of the credit given to the maltsters, that the trade should not be disturbed. We felt that the whole system was vicious in principle and pernicious in practice, and that it was absolutely necessary to make some considerable change. That subject has been for some time under our consideration. Our object w as to put an end to, or to modify, the system which grew out of circumstances totally different from those of the age in which we live, and, while we placed the conduct of the trade neon a much more healthy and satisfactory bais, not to disturb the trade. Well, assisted by those able gentlemen, many of whom, I dare say, are wall known to members of this house, whose aid has been most valuable to me, we completed the plan w hi c h we con sidered t o b e right, but the effect of the new system upon which the credit of the maltster is to be placed, though, in my opinion, it will not in any way disturb the trade, will have an immediate influence upon the revenue. In the year 1854-55 there will be a sum of 600,0001. paid to the • revenue, which, if this system were not reformed, would nob he obtained. Now, what did I do under these cir cumstances ? Assuming that the loss from the semi-repeal of the malt tax would be 2,500,009 f., I deducted from that amount the sum which, as I have just stated, was reported to me upon the very best authority as that which would be gained, and which would reduce the loss to 1,900,000/. Then the sum of 200,0001. taken from the Scotch draw back would further reduce it to 1,700,0001. ; and as I was not making a formal estimate, in dealing with a time so remote, I did not make any allowance for that increased consumption which was mentioned by the right honour able gentleman. (Hear, hear.) If I had made an allow ance for the increased consumption the sum would have been only 1,500,0001., according to the estimate of the right honourable gentleman, and if I had made an allowance according to the estimate which was given me by the highest authorities in the trade it would have been much loss. But, as I have never made any estimate since I have had the honour of addressing this house, which has not been very prudential and moderate, instead of the sum which I was authorised to calculate upon, I only men tioned 400,000/. ; b u t u p on th e es ti ma t e I ffered to the house the other day, if I had chosen to take into conside ration the increase of consumption, which at so remote a period I did not choose to place before them, the surplus upon the year Would have been 800,0001. The right hon. member for Cambridge University said that I had made another mistake with reference to the malt drawback. Now, in ascertaining the malt drawback, I look with great deference to those gentlemen who have been Chancellors of the Exchequer, and who now rise and shake their heads at me. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) After all, there is only one way of carrying on the publi c b us i ness . Wh en a question o f thi s kind is put before us, we must obtain the very best information that we can get from the highest and most authentic quarters, and must exercise our own judg ment upon the facts placed before us. (Cheers.) Well, the highest authorities—men whose information upon this subject none can rival, and whose intelligence and integrity of character none can surpass—men to whom I am indebted for their able and generous assistance, differing from me in political opinion As many of them do—(hear, hearHunited in recommending me to take one-third of the stock as the amount upon which I should pay drawback on the 10th of October, and the sum I was recommended to take, as a very safe estimate of the Meet - int of drawback, calculated by those who are perfectly acquainted with all the principal maltsters of the country, was 880,0001. Well, according to my usual habit I took that amount as the vt i n i munt an d t h i s is what eacited the hilarious eloquence of the right hon. member Lor the Uni versity. "But why fix the 10th of October?" said an hon. member on the other side. " Here is the whole plot," said some hon. gentleman ; "if we can only find out why the Government fix upon the lath of October, we shall be able at once to put an end to all this financial sophistica tion." (Hear, and a laugh.) An hon. gentleman Who is a great accession to our debatestor think it is a very fortnnate circumstance in such au assembly that we should have gentlemen, on whichever aide they may sit, like the hon. and learned member for Kidderminster fgt. TAnsie), who has shown, on the r are oecaeiciliS oil which he has addressed the house) 'considerable information—seemed to possess oil este point information superior to that of any other hon. member, I allude to the subject of brewing. (A laugh.) I ain surprised that air lton, gen tleman who seemed SO Complete a master of the art of brewing, and who made so eloquent a defence of the sys tem of credit to maltsters, should be the person to ask why we fixed upon the 10th of October for the half-repeal of the malt tax. If I had been as successful with regard to my resolutions as I could possibly eXpeet to be ; calcu lated that it was not probable that the resolution upon the malt tax would pass before March, but the policy which I announced and recommended in December would, if I had not proposed a drawback, have conipletely paralysed the a drawb ac k on s t oc k i n h an d, trade. It was absolittelytiedess a ty should announce that and the c onsequence is that th e trade goes on just as usual. the Government would give The hon. gentleman who possessed such remarkable infor mation on the subject of brewing and mulling ought to know that by far the greate r amoun t o f d u ty whi c h i s charged, and upon which th e usua l cre dit i s given for 1853-51, is charged between October and April. Malting virtually ceases at the end of May, and I may say, indeed, that from May s to Octob e r ma l t i ng does iitit 0 Oil, but there issomehng that does go o n, an d th a t is brew ing. (Hear, and a laugh.) The brewer acts upon the stock of the maltster, and therefore, when you have to pay the drawback, you pay it in th e most advantageous ericum stances, when the malting reak im i titta i n eoitimene. In sereed the fixing the 10th of ()defier, then, fixed a e l a te w hth th e highest .autherities in the trad e a at which the arrangement Could be made. Now, I don't like to revert to a subject t o w hi c h I h ave a l rea d y re ferred, but the honourabl e mem b er for Kidd erm i ns t er said that he would look to me to mention a parallel case to one which he put as t o the f e iraY it ie n t o f the 400,0001 e and that he trusted, in my reply I should not forget his illustration. /stow, in deference to the challenge, I beg to inform th e ho n . gentlenian that my parallel c father of a fatally, who ev ery three mont h s ta k es account of his expenditure this. will suppose th e Case of dareful l and income, anddevotes one-fourth of ee es them into the n hitt the son, when he makes the re aynionta, snakes payment of his debts,sa a portion Qf those p d h le is bts ur b P e l i us ng hands of a banker ) tys Whom no interest is given, and the father, instead of allowi n g the MoneY to remain there, accounttakes it into his actual ho takes Stock for the three months, and w ith t h e surplus contr i butes to the t i o ncu the d by ad vances to h i incurred reduction of Lis debts. I am sorry that this matter should have diverted me from the general.tenput of my remarks, but after four nights' deb*. it is difficult to put every observation in its lolver order. (Hear, hear.) Then there is another fault of mine upon which the, hon. and learned member for Kidderminster is the gioa'a au thority, and that n o t on l y here but I. nihrpoct elsewhere also. (Hear, heat, aid a kne e ) The Kafir war has broken out again. (sear, hear.) Now, I made a state ment to the house a fortnight ago respecting the the of extraordinary expenditure with i'6latd to the Kafir war. I have formed my apinien on the subject of the Kafir war —with grew aetom i t , c, to the dispatches which are received by the Secretary of Stite—fosu tlisi dis patches whi c h a r e fotWatcled myohodepartment from a branch of the service under my immediate supervision and control—l mean the commissariat depart ment, a branch of the service which dealS entiaetirwith the extraordinary expenditure undo the control of 'the Trea sury. Whatever the result may be, I must say .that I be lieve the public Panels were never administered by more men than those who have retaliate(' the datfaddlnary expenditure of the K a fi r war in he commissariat depart ment. That department communicates directly with the Treasury, and, although the dispatches are main.ly confined to the question of expenditure, there is Sometimes a great deal of information conveyed in thew in a lass publiC and formal man ner th an in the dispatches FeeTilpid iii Other quarters. Well, Upon tile Which I have re ceived, which has never deceived me, which has justified me, at the commencement of the year, in not calling, upon the house to confirm that vote of 200,0001, I made the statement the o th er n i g h t, that I believed the Refit War was terminated. ' ,We have had more recent information, and I can t ru ly say that all the information that has reached me has entirely substantiated the statement I made ' upon the previous authority. (Lend cries of " Hear, ' hear.") I htive no hesitation in saying the Kafir war is terminated. I (Cheers.) The best evidence I have is, that the commisssb,riat departm en t, w h o are d ea li ng w i t h t h e extraordinary expenditure, the only one that figures in our estimate, area winding up their extraordinary accounts— (hear, hear)—and they announce that, except for some casualties, they will not trouble me for any further ad vances. (Heels, hear.) They give incidental details of the state of tl 'se country, which convince me that the war is finished. (near, hear.) In a war with a Avage country, you cannot lrixo peace suddenly and precisely ascertained, as you do with a nation with which you have a treaty, or where you cells take the capital, or where-some incident occurs which convinces all the inhabitants that the struggle is over. (Hee hear.) A sort of flickering ember there may be ; and to the last an officer may be scalped, or some straggling as: iassinatien may occur ; but that the Kafirs can now bring an y force into the field I believe the committee may be sati. sfied is impossible, (Hear, hear.) It is n9t DECEMBER 17, 185 who had to make preparation on such a subject could be ignorant, of the anomalies that existed in schedule B. The right hon. gentleman and his friends will some day find in the records of my office, that I have not been negli gent in the con s id era ti on o f that subject, which is one of the greatest difficulty. To frame a complete measure on that, or any other subject, connected with the property and income tax, would baffle the genius of the greatest man that ever dealt with finance. We have endeavoured in the bill and schedules to meet that difficulty. But it was im possible for me in December to offer an estimate, and at the same time place these schedules in the hands of the house ; and it was requisite that by the necessary alte rations made, the general financial result should not be affected--because the alterations were not only in schedule B. Under these circumstances I placed that estimate before you; but the committee will do me the justice to recollect I said that there would be an apparent deficiency, but that no loss would be incurred. I naturally thought an occasion like that was not the legitimate and proper time of the year to enter on details respecting the income tax. (Hear.) I can assure the committee that, if I had thought otherwise they would have found that the question would not have been neglected. Whatever may be the result at which the committee may arrive with respect to the de tails, it will not change the financial result which I wished , at that moment to impress on their attention. Wo had, then, to consider the great question of direct taxation. It is totally impossible—with whatever group we commenced —that we could embark on a career of financial reform which would be really efficient, unless we had an amount of taxation still including the income tax. What is th e rule we laid d own ? Instad of being reckless, or, in the language of the right hon. gentleman the member for Carlisle, ready to push direct taxation to a rash extreme, we resolved that the direct taxation on which we should rest should be in amount of revenue inferior to that which had recently prevailed in this country, and which, since the repeal of the corn laws, had been cheerfully assented to by the people. Well, we had then to lay down two prin ciples connected with direct taxation. We had to assert that there is a difference between property and income, a difference between precarious and certain income. We had next to vindicate the principle which we believed, and do believe, is a just one, and which, if not now, must ulti mately be recognised and adopted—namely, that the basis of direct taxation should be enlarged. (Ministerial cheers.) Having these two principles to guide us in de vising means by which we were to obtain the amount of direct taxation necessary for our purpose, we thought. if we applied them moderately, temperately, scientifically, and wisely in the measures that we brought before the house, we should be acting rightly. We believed that the difference which we recognised between realised and pre carious incomes was one which certainly did not operate on the excessive side of the scale ; but we believed that the recognition of that principle was one which would gratify the working millions of this country, and we believed also that in asking them to contribute to the revenue of the country, by extending the house tax to houses of 101.. we were taking a course perfectly justifiable. (Cheers.) The question of the suffrage has been introduced into this debate. I candidly admit that lam one of those who do not like to blend the question of the franchise with a question of mere money ' • nor am I one of those who aro so anxious to introd uce this question of the suffrage into a discussion having relation to our financial system. If it be sought to establish as a permanent feature of our social system that there shall be created dames who are to exercise political power by means of throwing an undue weight of direct taxation upon the wealthier portion of the community, and an undue weight of indirect taxation on the working classes, I cannot imagine a circumstance more fatal to this country, or one more pregnant of disas trous consequences. (Cheers.) But of this I feel convinced, that those who will first experience the disastrous conse quences will be the privileged class. (Cheers.) There was one observation made by the right hon. member for Carlisle which I ought to notice. That right hon, gentleman parti cularly dilated on the hard case of that class whose income amounted to 1501. a-year ; those whom he considered to form the most straitened class perhaps in the country, and who bore most of the brunt of indirect taxation. It was the same argument which has been used to-night by the hon. and learned gentleman the member for Southampton (Sir A. Cockburn.) Now, that subject has been investi gated by men who have devoted their lives to the study of these questions. It has recently been investigated by a gentleman who is what is called a Liberal, and who if ho were a member of this house would sit opposite to me—l mean Mr. one of the most able inquirers into these subjects of the present day, and, if any position has been more completely established than another as regards the incidence of taxation, it is, in my opinion, this—that there is no class upon whom that incidence falls more lightly than upon those who possess 1501. a-year. It is that class who possess property of 3001. a-year who bear the brunt of in direct taxation. That can be completely and most satis factorily shown. But we had on Tuesday night's debate a most doleful and piteous appeal made to the house upon the hardship of taxing poor clerks with incomes of be tween 1001. and 1501. a-year. The right hon. gentleman stated that 1501: a-year was exactly that point in the scale where manual labour ends and professional skill begins. You can recall to your minds the effective manner in which the right honourable gentleman stated this. (Cheers and laughter.) He showed himself, in my opinion, an unrivalled artist when he told us that this was the point where the fustian jacket ceased, and broadcloth became the clothing. (Cheers and laughter.) The right hon. gen tleman is one whose skill we must all admire ; though I do not so much respect him as I greatly regard him. (Cheers and laughter.) In deciding upon the incidence of taxation, no one knows who has not embarked in that terrible enterprise the labour you have to undergo, the documents aeon have to read. and the mental exertion you have to apply. I am sure, for myself that there has been nothing ever written on the subject that I have not had to digest. My researches have been ample, and among the memorandums to guide me and lead me, I have studied statutes and consulted records wherever they could be found. I hope lam superior to quoting Hansard, and all that sort of trash. (Laughter.) But I will state that among the documents, public and official, which I read I to guide me, and the perusal of which persuaded me, I found one which greatly influenced me. I found the Superannuation-tax Bill of 1834, which was drawn up and introduced by the right hon. gentleman the member for Carlisle, being one of those great and worthy efforts which the right hon. gentleman made with a view to the im provement of the administration of the country. (Cheers.) found in that bill that the line was drawn at 1001. per annum—(cheers and laughter)—that the poor clerk under that sum only pays 2A per cent., while the poor clerk above that sum, though he may only have 1101. a year, pays 5 per cent. (Cheers and laughter.) That was the reckless labour of the right hon. gentleman the member for Carlisle. (Hear, hear.) I know my deficiencies as much as any man in this house—probably more. But after all, what, I ask, is to guide us? lam perfectly wil ling to forget all that might be said in debate ; but when I get into office, and refer to public records, and when I look at a statute of the realm, then I suppose I am come to the calm, solid, and solemn conclusion of a statesman. Though I would not legislate upon a passage of a speech, yet I find dispatches and statutes to consult, then I feel that though opinions may change upon political matters, this is the better mind of the man, and, being the better mind of a most able man, I confess the reading of that statute did influence me in that very arrangement I had proposed respecting the poor clerks with regard to the in come tax. (Loud cheers.) And remember what has hap pened to the poor clerk since 1834, when this statute was drawn ; remember the reduction of taxation of which the poor clerk has had the benefit. Remember the repeal of the corn laws. (Cheers,) Look at the position of the poor clerk who had 110/. a year, and then had a double tax placed upon him by the right hon. gentleman ; and look at his position now to what it was then. I say without hesitation, that I do not believe that the condition of any portion of the labouring classes has been so much im proved as that of the class of clerks whose salaries range between 1001. and 1501. a year. Well, having believed that it was necessary, before we undertook the great labour which we felt it our duty to embark in, that we should have a certain amount of direct taxation to rest upon ; having determined that we would make this differ ense in the assessment in the schedule between realised and precarious incomes, which must inevitably reduce the amount of direct taxation from that source which our pre decessors enjoyed ; having believed that we had attempted to supply that necessary amount by our proposition with re spect to the house tax in a manner which was reasonable, which was just, which was on the whole most beneficial to the aemmunity,—which in its operation would ultimately tend &Yen to confer advantages on those classes on whom the tax wa to bo imposed ; having by this measure, if suc cessful, succeeded in obtaining the amount of direct taxa tion which was necessary, but which was still inferior in amount to that which only two years ago had been enjoyed by our predecessors we had to decide upon which of the five vamps of taxation we should operate. Recognising— I am obliged to repeat it—recognising the great end per manent revolution which has occurred in the commercial system of this country---recognising, as I have done, unfe stricted competition as the principle on which our future commercial policy is to be based : and wishing to assimilate our financial to our commercial system, and assuming that we had obtained this amount of direct taxation to rest upon, we ultimately decided that it would be the wisest course to commence by acting upon those articles which entered most into consumption by the people, and that it would be for their salutary advantage, if we selected those articles which were subjected to the largest impost. (Cheers.) Now, that is the real history of the connexion between the direct and the indirect taxation, as they are both dealt with in this financial measure. Under these circumstances we were induced to recommend to the house the proposition which we have made with respect to the tea and malt duties. I think the house and the country have recognised the wisdom of the course we have pur sued. (Hear, hear.) At this late hour I shall not enter into eny elaborate argumentation on the subject of the effect which 14411 bo produced by the modifi ca ti on o f th e ma l t tax. lam fad, that if you reduce the tax on the con sumer, and only as a tax on the consumer—and to that point I shall advert Intesently, as being in perfect Harmony with the principles laid down in our revision of the taxa tion on one article—to the extent of 2,500,0001. sterling, that you do not affect the price to him in the least, and that all the reduction goes to the brewer. (Hear, hear.) I remember when we used to discuss the effect of taxation on another article that similar observations were made. Ido not care now to remember from what quarter they emanated, but the effect and object of those observations was exactly the same. (Cheers.) Then it was, "Oh ! those vill a i ns , th e b a k ers !" (Loud cheer ing and laughter.) You may reduce the price of corn— you may injure the agricultural interest—you may ruin the farmers and the country gentlemen—but you could not reduce the price of the loaf to the consumer. No, the bakers took it all. (Cheers and laughter.) Oh, yes, and there were the millers. The millers were worst of all—they carried off all the reduction. (Cheers renewed.) Well, those arguments had a considerable effect, and there was such a prejudice raised against the bakers throughout the country, that I should not have been surprised if they had been all hanged in one day, as the bakers had once been in Constantinople. (Laughter.) It was said at that time that a fall of 4s. a qu a rt er on wheat would not affect the price of bread, and we were told that the bakers, great rs,hke the brewers, we r e a gre at monopoly—they were are the capitalists—they were a kind of Freemason a s n , y an w d a , y d e o verto what you would, it was totally impossible in get a cheap loaf, (Hear, hear.) And now—such heaest argu and to tohfeposelwithicealwalinftee—dnc buy we in thekea r the e same p to sell in the dearest market. (Hear, hear.) The great opponents of colonial imports — the members of the import committee—here we find them arrayed( a all dherewe in favour them, with rof high taxation for the producer, n with taunts to us, using all the fallacies which we at l east have had the courage honourab , l t y is t r o a gi m y p e an u t p ;an (.:7 t m is e t n h d e o rues. cheering.) Tell me Protection is dead ! Tell me there is p o a p it hs l iti Wh on Lnches. Great and prolonged n (P o oiiiting cheering, and some ironical laughter.) They have taken Protectionist to the up our principles with our benches, and I believe they will be quite as unsuccessful. (Cheers.) I must here make one observation. I say it is in the interest of the consumer, in complete accordence with the principles we laid down in revising the taxation of the country, that we have pro- that eeve3'al chiefs have surrendered—these things have happened before ; it is not even that the Waterkloof is cleared, though that is important ; but it is that in the bush, in the Amatolas, the skeletons of the Kafirs are found ; it is clear that they have no means of subsistence ; they are lingering in the bush and dying. (Hear, hear.) Well, after my estimate, I thought it right to apply to the Secretary of State, and I said, "What are your dispatches? I have laid my estimate's upon the table on the dispatches of my department ; but what are yours ? They may clash." The same ship that brought me information brought dispatches to the Secretary of State ; and here is a dispatch of General Cathcart. I will read a paragraph of it, if the committee wish; it is strictly in keeping with the subject ; we are vindicating the estimate, and I rather think I ought to do it. (Loud cries of " Read, read") It is dated from Graham's Town, the 12th of October, 1852 : " By this report, and other events which are detailed in my dispatch respecting British K afraria, you will perceive that the war of rebellion may now be considered to be at an end ; and, as it has been attained not by any compromise or treaty, but by force of aims, and a severe moral lesson, by the dispersion and repulsion of the most powerful tribe from the natural strongholds which they long believed to be im pregnable, cannot fail to impress upon those who are consci ous of their inferiority in respect to these natural advantages the ultimate ruin and destruction that must be the result of rebellious opposition to her Majesty's authority, and there is reason to hope, provided that authority be duly supported by an adequate permanent military establishment"--(" hear, hear," from, we believe, Sir W. Moleswerth and others)—" that any similar protracted and expensive Kafrarian war may be long adverted." (Hear, hear.) I read that because it is a definite announce ment. (Hear.) With respect to the "adequate military establishment," the hon. baronet need not be alarmed ; we shall depend upon the mounted police, which is a colonial force, and I think I may promise the house that we shall not have any increased expenditure on account of the war. (Hear, hear.) The head-quarters of General Cathcart are at Graham's Town. He has withdrawn two regiments from the seat of war; and I trust we shall soon withdraw others. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") There is another point in the estimate which I ought to notice, which has been urged by the right hon. gentleman the member for Cambridge University (Mr. Goulburn.) He said I had made no allowance for the loss to the revenue from the proposed permission for refining in bond. It is very inconvenient for me, at this moment, to refer in any detail to the subject of refining in bond. The refining in bond will depend upon certain conditions. I have pledged myself that those con ditions shall be placed before those most interested without being previously bruited about. I can only say, therefore, at present I do not make any allowance in my estimate for a loss on the refining in bond, because I believe not the slightest loss to the revenue will occur. (Hear, hear.) I hope the right hon. gentleman will be satisfied with my giving my opinion, and not press me to go into any detail upon this point. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I approach, perhaps, still more serious subjects. It has been said that the house tax has been proposed by the Government in order to carry the semi-repeal of the malt-tax. Well, I admit that that is a very plausible charge ; it is a good card. (A laugh) I find no fault with any gentleman opposite who makes the charge. I know myself sufficiently to feel convinced that were I in their situation and their circumstances, it is very possible I should h ave ma d e th e c h arge myielf. (Laughter and cries of "Hear, hear.") Nevertheless, though it be a plausible charge, a good charge to make, it is not a just charge. (Hear.) They have no connexion whatever in the origin of the measures which we have thought it our duty to recommend to Parliament. (Hear.) The right hon. gen tleman opposite informed the house on Tuesday night that I had promised the country a new system of taxation ; but ho did not produce any authority for that important statement, and, generally speaking when statements of such magnitude are ma d e authorities, aro furnished. (Hear, hear.) I will sit down now, if the right hon. gentleman will rise and give me the authority. (Cheers.) It is very true that the lively member for Mid dlesex (Mr. Osborne) quoted a passage from my address to my constituents, which, certainly, was not merely made to my constituents, but to those in other places whom my feeble authority might influence • but if an opponent co u ld have wished to assi s t th e man whose adversary he was, he could not have done me more justice, or given me a better turn, than the lively and somewhat audacious member for Middlesex did. (Laughter and cheers.) I listened to his speech with all that pleasure which I am sure the house shared—(hear, hear) ;—I think it was one of his best speeches—(hear, hear);—but the passage that most delighted me was that which he quoted from my own address, for I had not seen that address for a long time; and, really, after some of these charges whi c h h ave been lately made, I ar rived at almost a nervous state upon the subject. (Laugh ter.) What did I say there? I, who am charged with misleading the farmers at the election, and throwing them over afterwards—(hear)—l said that the genius of the age was in favour of the change that has taken place, that it was in vain to stru gg l e aga i ns t it , th at t h ey mustfind the means of meeting it in reducing the cost of production, and that one of the means of reducing the cost of produc tion, lay in reducing taxation. (Hear, hear.) And lam described as having deceived the farmers before the elec tion, and thrown them over afterwards—(hear hear)—and the right hon. gentleman sa y s we are assembled here to re ceive the new system of taxation which I promised. Where is your authority ? Her Majesty's Government did all that they promised ; they did not promise a new system of taxation, but they did revise the taxation of the country. (Hear, hear.) The committee will, I hope, excuse my en tering into details. We gave to that subject a long, and an anxious, and a most impartial consideration. In review ing that, which I may call a colossal subject, the question naturally divided itself into many groups, if I may use a word now familiar to us. We had to consider those ar ticles that entered into the general consumption of the people, that were nece ssar y f or th e i r h ea lth y sustenance, and that were exposed to enormous imposts, such as tea and coffee. That was one subject on which we felt that it was necessary something should be done to meet the principle of unrestricted competition, now permanently established as the principle of our commercial code, and in order to assi milate the financial system under which the community live who were subject to the principle of a restricted com petition. We had to consider the whole question of the stamp duties with reference to those real burdens upon land—upon the transfer of land, which must sooner or later be dealt with —(loud cries of "Hear, hear")—and a question of the utmost difficulty, which must also not long be neglected—the question of the leeacy and probate duties. We had to consider wheder it was pos sible to propose to Parliament a duty on succession, which, in connexion with the total reform of the burdens on the transfer of land, would be an equitable and just set tienient of the question, and one which was for the welfare of all chimed. (flew' hear.) That is what I may call a second. group. (Hoar,) We had, in the third place, to consider those Excise laws which exorcise a pernicious in fluence upon the employment of capital. and upon the em ployment of labour, like the 60311.And . paper duties. The question of the assessed taxes, -With the necessary reforms which they require, alone form a fottiiii group. (Hear.) We were obliged to consider th e w h o l e o f otir tari ff with regard te bur commercial relations with other cetititfies, beettitge theta Wee ett Inclination in some countries to In crease those doniniefeiel relations, and we wished to en courage them. (Hear, hear.) Thsse were five great sub jects, all of them demanding our attention ; with all of which, sooner or later, a Government must deal ; and we had to cheese how we would commence this arduous en teittrise, ( ear') tint there was a very important question also to consider whorl Wd &vile this . general survey of our financial system—a very important question to settle before we could decide even as to the first step we should take—and that was the question how far we should prevail ti tin the country to fix upon that sum of direct taxation Which Wee fiedMary for any Ministry that attempted to enter into a career of financial reform. (Hear.) I have been o,cceised by the member for Halifax (Sir C. Wood) of making a p e toposition which recklessly increases the direct takatioil of the eoitntry. (Hear, hear.) I have been ac cused by the member fof Carlisle (Sir J. Graham)—prompt in accusation at all times—(Cheer from the Ministerial side)—of pushing direct taxation to a istiedt extreme. In the first place the proposition I ma d e on th e pea of the I GoVeriiniente neteacl of recklessly increasing the amdffht of direct taiatiOn i Would not, if it passed, occasion so groat an dittoeint of direct taxation as prevailed under the superintendence of the finances by the right hon. gentle man the member for Halite /4 WhOrt lie enjoyed not only evi the income and property t ax , b u t .the rieltese tax, which, in tild last year of its existence, brought him u.sarly 2,060,060/. steiling, (Cheers.) The right h on . gen tl e nian, who sittyit Mile& Slot teekleseely increa se th e amoun t o f direst taxation; red,iided the amount which h e rece i ve d i n its last year !rend the Witt tart' ; and was c on t en t w ith the modest sum o f PO, 001, DY Way of commutation 1 for the wi n d ow t ax . I canno t forget that the right hon. gentleman, who recklessly charges me ulth in creasing the atuOthit of direct taxation proposed first a c.empleto dOitinintetion Which would have made his Hattie fa* let& iii , i' t, than the one I have proposed. (Lead ie all ? Is this all that has been done by the rig.fit hon. gentleman who charges me with proposing recklessly to increasd the direct taxation, of the country ? Why, there is the Minister Who with the Pfelleill tax you have now producing its full amount,, with winticoNtitali tilgt brought nearly 2,00,0001., came down.to the Ronde of CepitietOila one day and pro posied to ti titaftled o . 6stemlilY to doefiele nearly the property and income tag. (Great clieering4 I look on this con duct as indicati ng care l essne ss ef eetkinqiiendes I look upon it as the conduct of a man who had not wen - Weighed the thitefpfhie winch he is embarked. We heel' of the duplicatnari of the hadn't/ tax—an innocent amount ; b u t if the right hen:pi-ere/an tied eareled the duplication ' of the piop'eftt. indorde tart, think be might fairly have charge With fecklessly hiefeasing the direct taxation of the country. (Loud eheniiej The most curious thing, however, is that the Minister who Mild fofWatd to make a propesition, which nothing but the most Vales conjunetidn of direnmetances could have justified, at the first menace of opposition withdrew his proposition. (Loud cheers;) Talk of feticide/MOO i Why, what in the history of finailed the feekkesneee with which the right hon. gentletdafi tiete'd I (Land cheers.) And what was the ground on which he made this monstrous and enormous proposition ; a proposition which tally the safptj%. 0 the *late weuld have Justified him in making? When he Wad"Heald; humiliated, he came forward to say that ho lied sufficient fel/dill/0 without resorting to that preposition: ,(areat and continued cheering.) The future histeritin not,be believed to be telling the truth when he says that the Ministet edible down nearly to double the income tax, and the next day came down to say that the Ways and Means were ample. (Renewed clieering ; ) But then he tells me, and not in very polished, and in scarcely 1 3 arhatieiita'!'y laneuage, that I do not know my busineElB. , r ,(dttat eheefing) He may have learnt hi s business. The HOnee elf Commons is the best judge of that. I care not, to be his critic ; yet if he has learnt his busi ness he hag gOnid optitgf things -that petulance is not criticiiiii, and that ineolened id hat integrity, (Loud and continued cheering.) The committee will remem- ' ber that in dealing with those five great groups of taxa tion to which I have called attention, and all of which I .Ito,y . gay eqttally deirtanded the consideration of a Minieter; ivelied to deal with the great subject of direct taxation. There wee, indeed, the income and property tax in existence for a brief space. It was, perhaps, possible that the Ministry might have come forward in the House of Oettiiiittee anti obtained a temporary continuance of that impost. That is not by any means certain. But there were peculiar circumstances connected with the position of the Ministry and the property and income tax. Her Ma jesty's Government were of opinion that th e ti me cou ld no longer be delayed 'when the Government of this country must recognise a difference between the incomes which ac crued from precarious and from realised property. (Hear, heer.) It was evident that such an acknowledgment acted upon must diminish the produce from that tax at a mo ment, when certainly wo did not wish our resources from direct taxation to bo diminished. It is difficult I confess, to answer every observation that is made ; but another right hon. gentleman, who recently spoke, has been criti cising, I think before the appropriate time, what he calls my bill on the property and income tax. In the first place, my bill is not before the house. 'When he sees it, he may criticise it. We are placed in this position with respect to the :points of detail which the right hon. member for Ports mow% mentioned. We were perfectly aware, as nobody iposedntere interest this f the measure cultivatorbu dotl of t h n e o not 0 1 1 7 any moretluto which I have no doubt will that by remitting the duty on tea I have not C 1 2; 00 of the Indian occupier and of the China trade. B for the bring forward the proposition, in the first instan th . o Le., oil advantage and interest of India and o f the s farmers—or even those odious beings the owners n . _ A the or th e t —(a laugh)—have the benefits of tois legislatioe greatly promote th i c i N d id rot same as you admit the manufacturer of Men s .„ merchant of Liverpool to find in his transaction s t o ui to vantage of reducing the price of bread or the Vie o w, it Nvill not be thie, to the wife of the poorest cottager in the con.ntry% hear.) But I said this—Deal with the interest et; pre sume; and incidentally you will find that ri d i lict i ve ducing the greatest advantage to the great Pr`L, told than terests of the country. (Hear, hear.) But tin repealing a portion of the malt tax, notNv l 'L hoe that I showed you in my statement how modestly to its put the resources of the country, I have shalteri'.) foundation the credit of England. (Hear , hea credit of England depends on a farthing a pot r „h a ll poor man's bee r ? (Ch eers a nd laughter.) N eve em ber fo r forget how that " weird Sybil," the right hon. • lough- Cambridge, gave forth that solemn oracle. (N u t 7 co can ter.) Now Ido no t thi n k that any cirenm s t h e pubh i f, justify pers ona l a pp ea l s o f th a t kind. He say? I t hin credit is in danger. Well, I don't think it le' ear , public credit never was in a better position. I ;i s tor9 t of this l eou n n e t v ry er w r h em en em h b e e r r reasnoyurpeeesriowderein, " O he °r sy. daily, so visibly increasing. (Cheers from w h e ther position.) I will no t en t er i n t o the discussionc the law s ' t° r© ' 134 the cause was gold, the repeal of the corn laws, crease of emigration : but, as to the last point! for madder one thing in the speech of the hon. member . c, no t core minster to which I have adverted so much. a s sofe r from what quarter it comes ;my business is now bu. s th e the attacks made on the Government, but I co te n ;note opinion of the hon. member for Kidderminster 111711,p0l as heretical on emigration as it is upon brewingn; to fine' malt. (A laugh.) I repeat that lam veil glc- e li gra / r oot him here among us, but all the opinions I have, 1 ,440 ) him yet appear to be quite unsound. (Cheers emu . ' oar I continue in th a t o pi n i on . I n the first place( " .„ersble coast 0)0 founded Ireland an d E ng l an d, th ou gh I, a+. - di 60 1 pains, and perh a p s no t necessar ily, s howed the .! 4111 between them the other night. As to E n gland 11 sorte interesting to hon. members to quote a Pa ssa g e a id tp ij letter written by th e mos t em i nen t actuarY i s we i greatest statistical inqui rer i n E ng l a nd, whose tun do a°, known to the hon. member for Montrose, thollga e i c ei!, o l think it necessary to mention it which I have e :,, s , reference to this subject. "The rate," bei,:c births and marriages has greatly increased in t''' -to rather and I think emigration may facilitate the rate poL than impede it, the reserve of producing which we have in this country." (Roars of laughter, to boo. is a point I wish to bring to the attention of tip O s member for Kidde r mi ns t er . (R enewe d laughter. ) a nd lived abroad in a country with a sparse populatio,n,,,bere• has no idea of the reserve of producing power we na„y info (Renewed laughter.) But he goesn.'", to 1 from the fact that in the south-eastern countic. ore. married women of ages between 20 and 45 ther r e as o4; women of the same age—that is, from 20 to 45 --un io diog . of whom only about seven bear children notwiths the re' (Renewed laughter.) Now, I have confidence i n io nlee4 serve of producing p ower , w hi c h I thi n k the hen.• t cr edi t with his colonial experience, had not given Bract(); ) 1 0 to us for. With respect to the point to w hic , o ()fir alluded, my opinion is, that the surplus revert „f country will be very considerable at the en" for tha t year 1854-55. But I look to other resources,' ,opir year than to increasing profits, or the increas e i u m i. AV; lation of this country, and I will mention wha t he riltif (Hear, hear.) I look to a great retrenchment in t , expenditure of this country—( c h eers ) —and I to tins the committee allow me, advert for one mow ° 011 be point. I believe that any great retrenchment en v ,' effected by looking to the efficiency of our °stab/is o esr and trusting to the economy which is the net sib t t h nuence of that efficiency. do not think it Post a !' pe the result can be reaped till 1854-55. Now, house will permit rne, very shortly, to show to theT o f illustration of a remarkable kind what is the rest o f e 0 mini:Arai-dye reforms co nd uc t e d on th e the princiP os oteP ciency with ou t any regar d t o w h a t i s ca ll e d m ere ee e fora l ; T. in my estim a t e o f th e e ff ec t s o f a d m i n i s trative r io defy should have spok e n o f millions, but I am now P ing , in cls are with an instance i n w hi c h on l y th ousan d s of Iv • i 5 concerned. But the case I am about to lay before ! erie real case which, however slight the instance, wi ll roe c ; show the principle. It is due to my noble friend the tbe. ber for Buckingham (the Marquis of Chandos) to 5 . 11 , 1 1, 0 !( 1, I am entirely indebted to him for the case in W 1 ° 41 1 , 0 01 _„' s I may most sincerely say of him that, since he ha s ,r o the service of her Majesty there never was a PlwA l _ rv ice. who devoted his life so completely to the public.s;roo (Hear, hear.) In preparing the measures of admin'" o d reform, which I wished to bring before the house , , e to making a catalogue of all the establishments which 11 % i s itte' be attended to, I found in the report of the select cl ece Aft of 1848 upon miscellaneous expenditure, of which' he.„ l due'' hon. member opposite was the chairman, this mernol;itia —" Whether a reform might not be effected l3 s",„. Coaci the Chief Secretary's office in Ireland with the cillor's office." That suggestion was made in 1848. '-taTeel ▪ hie to my noble f r i en d th e mem b er f or B uc ki ng h a m, c to ire attention to this passage, and I said, " Will yon land and will you take somebody with you to aid - 7 Ch ie• f your labours, and ex ami ne i n t o thi s ques ti o n of ,1,„ Secretary's offi ce ? B u t, m i n d y ou , mere retrene a e e ner, not our object ; econom y mus t b e com bi ne d with e-w- o (Hear.) If more money is n ec e ssar y y ou shall I °' s o but go to Ireland, examine into the whole questi° l " o report to me by what means you can render t." more efficient, and let me know the amount V' s eat ) ; require." Well, Si r , h e wen t, accompan i e d by til e t f ns tart' of the audit board, one of the most intelligen o gle assiduous of public officers. (Hear, hear.) Th, e n Y bli e j their inquiries into the Chief Secretary's office "" -11 , 4 ' . " By the report of the committee of 1843 it was stiggieo. whether the consolidation of the Chief Secretari e , ° , l lo and the Privy Council office would not be pree" - tioa' My noble friend, however, effected a consol iM el not only of th e Chi e f Secretary's office and th e „ im i Councils', but of the Fines' and Penalties' office. Il e ;11 016 deal with an annual cost of 21,738/. He put th e ; office into th e mos t efficient state that a public offi c i o be in ; and the natural consequence of its being Pi as r e ; most efficient state was, that the cost of 21,738 1 - duced to the sum of 5,1781. (Cheers.) Thus the s o ya' effected by an inquiry conducted without any othe r dw, sideration but that of efficiency, produced a savings that per cent. upon the original cost ; and yet I am t,„ 4 , ° ' ere , nothing can be done in administrative reforms. t u ' r ie" I must, in justice to my noble friend, notice anothetote stance. His only fault is that he is of a too retiring ° vie; ' (Hear.) There are very few men more capable of n. s. ing information to the house, especially upon rit s ;';, s t financial acco un t s but he takes refuge instead in domitable power of application to business for whi ch lie f " already so distinguished. (Hear.) There was an sP be tion made, and apparently a very fair one, by the ss A of the Secretary at War, when the Militia Bill wasp con" for an increase of staff. There was of course a yel l the siderable increase' of duty in the o ffi ce consequ ent uP ° .,r Di• elt new measure, and it was j us t one o f th ose demand sol might have been conceded heedlessly, and with which 011 one, upon a superficial view of the case, might have T;° , e ipt' accorded. But I, h av i ng grea t con fid ence i n th e pi t. '"u of administ ra ti ve re f orm, an d equa l con fid ence i n the lities of my noble friend, before I would agree to anitlie crease of expenditur e i n th e office in consequence ~,,° ,1/0" militia, which I should have w it nesse d w ith great tee' lingness—(hear)—asked him to appoint a cent m i. th e which he did with the assistance of the Secrete*" eer Treasury, the secretary of the Audit Board, and a t ., $ 0• - man once a member of this house, the present Der,' 'sob' cretary of War (Mr. B. Hawes). They examined tioi the ject and put the office into a most efficient state, 0,4 oi qe l whole of the additional business is carried on with ° „ - farthing of additional expense. (Cheers.) In therfro . o, the Irish office, the persons employed were reduce d ol io 57 to 40; but, allow m e t o rem i n d th e house, tha t L, - .lo l ' all this retrenchm en t, p er f ec t e ffi c i ency was 15°'-ijces' (Hear.) These are, some may think, minute 100' qijio ' but they are in s t ances we ll wor th y of attention, Government have b een dealing, however, with ti instances. (H ear .) Th ey h ave been atterar i ,"i7o o, deal with the gre a t d e p ar t men t o f pu bli c exPe n 7,i . th e and, as the results o f th a t a tt emp t , l as th e organ - ver.t Government, express our opinion that there mae be g' itti ro, considerable retrenchment made in the public exnen u , th e and that this retrenchment may be brought to bear.r o jes , ,T . year 1854-55. (Cheers.) But, Sir, one thing is qu,_ l 7 ° i ; ilP —that you cannot embark in an undertaking of ti lls 00' unless you have the fair support of the House of Conoo.o (Cheers from both sides of the house.) Now, ta.4 opinion is this—that it is not wise to grapple with tt - 0P partment of public expenditure by committees. ('-„, D 9 hear.) lam of opini on th a t you must deal with theft to commissions—the same comm i ss i ons t h at are brong'o9 I bear upon the revenue d e p ar t men t ; b ut, although "crlssa I have commissions and the royal sanction, it is n ec ii o ns e trot the question should b e f a i r l y b roughtbefore the old of Commons in the way of exposition, and that yen or, have tie moral sanction and support of that house. (.40 1 hear.) It is perhaps the most difficult undertaking the a Minister can embark in, and u n l ess h e has, I may si A s in ; Crown and Parliament to ba c k hi m , f a il ure is c° o ne' though with that support I think success is equallY go od (Cheers.) Well, then, when lam told that I have no ground for my surplus of 1854-55, my answer is that lieve we shall have much more than th e su rplus wi l ted cursorily ventured upon in my general statement. , t hat you I have other resources upon whi c h I depend, nand. the I believe, with an ample surplus to begin with, it: t hei fault of the House of Commons if in the year 1854 -o 'l tot do not find their public service mo re efficient than ! ice d and less costly. (Cheers.) I think I have now 1 3 °'_,Iit euery objection of importance which has been br o y b er against the Government propositions. I have avoid; of tering into the question as to the unconstitutionah_,',o our conduct with respect to the income tax. Legi t f or opportunities will arise for commenting upon all thet, be said upon this subject; and the house will, I come to a fair decision on the subject. Although tillt,jl minute objections have been made to points of 0 ",, e ol I have not stopped to notice these. I have not et°Ptihe to vindicate that part of the income tax relating to the farmer's schedule. I shall be prepared to lay before..erl make as o c n lo s se w a hi n c a h ppr h o a xi ve rea ill ;!ol ilat e I may state now . 0 to justiceouusrtocommitteeon only yt asa take o p be o j tsehsciiethb was possible. And A sth course n a d mn I da; k will but not vote for t hat so s if it is not the prevailing feeling of the house that lu stio a just arrangement. I will not enter now into the (1 11° „ro of the hop duty a n d things of that kind. After 0° - c r o " tracted a debate, and following so manyspeakers wh ° Oh° merited upon so many points in the fin anc ial scheme r ° l o o Government, I hope the com m itt ee w ill f ee l that if I ce to avoided some of those points it has been from deferen oti b. them, and not from any w i s h o f my own to avoid thfL Jo ject. (Hear.) But so me advice has been offered 1 ; a to which I ought, perhap s , t o not i ce. I h ave been t c r 30.• withdraw my budg e t. (L aughter.) I was t o ld tha ni ber Pitt withdrew his budget, and that more recen tl y persons had don e so too. (Laughter.) Now, Id ° 31° the pire to the f ame o f M r. Pitt, but I will n ot submit i to ove degradatio n o f others. (Loud cheers.) No , sir ; seen the co nsequences of a Government no t being,_%, the pass their measures—consequences not honour ah l n et, i n Government, not advantageous to the country, arts hose' my opinion, con d uc i ve t o th e repu t a tion of t1 1 4 1 . .,, t0f ir which is m os t d ear t o me. (L ou d c heers.) I . .„';: v it: ber a b u d get which was w i th d rawn , and . 4 1 ; yeeti drawn, and withdrawn again—(laughter) —in 1848. What was the consequence of the G°Y i ` ene e t ° existing upon sufferance? What was the °°llci tran es f; the finances of this country ? 'Why, that ignoble bolt tion respecting the commutation of the window 7 0.4 0 . inf.• duty, which now I em obliged to attempt of censit The grievance is deeper than mere questions o ver ge . , o deration. When parties are balanced—when r! v iih, cannot pass its measures—the highest prinall ie 'l ge i i ers of tL life, the most important dogmas of polit ics ' into party questions. (Hear) Look at this o f ti t e 7o 7ll direct taxation, the most important ques tion force 1 It is a question which must sooner or laterr_ before xue upon everybody's attention; and I so beiv and confusic ' a t n h ae '';,, 11 "). Sir, Din h a t . 'dispositio• ' a n~blic intores t4,:tght honour t tl h li ait in h so e le i k lBt a g, dro wneC the ri g ht t° Bay tO my 41, ( , 411 d. cheers. otf. i ie : lle a r ;t aet h .rajo a n t b, w eras h no a cif t: I t lim ' t hat he has °ration, th7 l°4 ) -that e oug t In the me N tti w hen comm t olB ' (Loud a g on fron `tie aforeall the att tttions, am th,,, 111 . 11 Which we otir fat of a seri ( ie hands. In 1 v,7 proposition. , f Nik bl roittee yule 1„ 114 i, proposition v extended bey It'ili, but is exteru] ) li t l ' s other of then tttit,,,,en,h.,(l ,, , l loee le flilaci d tta , hicalvve a eh n niolh. d weeeh i rasui t iehn h ae a li `tt 4 " Other occasii 'i. , {l;' double house tib fr ee to depart ;, 4 e a vast nun '%, 4 order that I N e r of Parliam, that passes thr 4 1. y i' amount liberty, ki. the . 4 1 8 mount of ' 10 a once passe( , '"a'Y reduce th, You tL . may b: S ~ 'llird readir ad opt that as 3 G li 0 11 n pr ttli teittee Po is any eng,ag L. „!' and I wish N. 4), gaged, in the 7411 e '% duty. (H ,I tl i :e tl et °l 4.l74 llll .,rt t , o l la i f e s t p a nil e x aki e e s s s ii. o h c l tt t ,," of that mum 11 5 4 ne w tax, but t t'4 4 , 1 and to give al 4 1 ,,',ittee which 0 StC a/c • (Heor ) 1 ) .,: 01 , :7 0 5 ur e who 1 :Ile t 'Zhe is frefTt e l a i r n ,`iti o i:e,ilts of this e tlik.,/,„ .toes he i ll a t t m lAbl .e rrres i l kPril'tlcrease cofafleie b 444 + 1, 4 by that .71 , m et a ,;',,e ll ,.by the i ,le-,et , lecretary, b ,to, an amem dip Z it the terms " 1 . 4 4,„,ed it of the ( t ct,, .the propos kt iri 1 . its stand. Sa e k te sruad. gentle '4(1 ) , l f and myfriE ,Nel l c.ercisec. II i 'lit et ,%should hay ;'ll t ;,;jte spoke as '1ti . ,..) - -but they be. r with respect ' 4 l 4 - never knew li 0l iv demand o for kh tls ‘ n all occas thell j il ',' ‘ °_ ll . gentle= , tgo last year ii ' l' ~ ,;; 4 . i V"''' t, it, 4 l ttt Chet l ),.,, t r . ce,4l , .'" is i t 1 8 a i t t ee 1 d oti : e l B t.t_f h tioh n e e .wri o a o s o q tt ft at r u hwa t s h w ehra h al ft e a t rsl 1 1 ' A `'av;ii th 111 , he as , 1 4 :p ie most . 1 , , t . too of (wain( ,li, lea. ~.--- ci , t o s triear, A t " resolution a , ? 1 1 the house ha resolution means on 'i:, ' : l t t e ,i 3 l) 4l Pa i li f e r o e p f is r se a e n c i l a f x h e i i It th l 'autages of t ' 4l l a . difficulties . widened area nape form ? for 1 1 t 0 have iten would o n e ll i : l . , . .% I to ;'e been decii " 1, 1 . ttee. For ell e(' beyond ,Ja t4 ,t ' , lit ' say the rite ' e mouses is on Ik.fl2,otice of the tl,' f o u r the :F r , b l. „, . op 'ge r i',q, which du t ee,,„"Alose tax w t \ ''II O L TI R Why we 81 4 r te he to be a . rt e house tl I to t question 1 .1 4, 1 1 ; 4 and c k 4 l4 ,Po e ssireto ° ilie.bTl ii d that i L : $t ttt . ttiqt,), 4 4 1 lit I 1 liz: t o : , , Ito 4 0 1 (), 3. . : i ti A 1 1 It 4 It , tt: a ce : o 4 t e a r the 41: h' i it o ida, 44t00 4 f ov .ad e bl i t rri l 3l I:ecio at si ase ot t hf t u t ml 11 spec] ear, a h h . s e tar ffi h e c aao o e e g n s rh esex i l bss u e l: . la e t s whole r° h I ti 4 4 by • : 14 e8: 1: _ t e l has eo r ns e: lqi 'e laudior ° II I' t: 11 of whit eth t Whole mai , 4 1tC o tIR to say g ; 1 1 4 1 (11' 4 118 that he e, e llt f,,,, ° P 13 alb it, tisk,r a " ti scri on of be , Il et l i i ßllt r B4 rY to s (I ° , l % l l 'J : gent] 4 ag the °t(Se as le)lati t