The Sun. — London, England, 1812-03-24 00:00:00

The CITANCILLOR of The lltenrettrtsft obierved ) that if the appointment of Colonel M'Mahon ap , peared to the Hon. Gentleman an improper one, it was competent for him to bring the subjea under th e consideration of the House. He did not be lieve that such an Officer attended the King before his infirmities were so great that he could not aft for himself, but of late the business had so much in creased, that if the House expe6ted to see . a Sove teign of Great Britain, who could do without such an Officer, he thought that they expeded that which - th e y would never have. Mr. WARD washed to know if the Right Hon. t entleman had any objeainns to state, who advi•ied the appointment àf Col. McZilahon to that situa tion The CHANCELLOR a the EXCHEQUER bad no -1 2)jeClion tow:Aver the question of the Hon. Gent. it had been advised by himself. WYNNE wished to submit it to the Right Eon. Gentleman whether or not it would be neces: tary to biing in a Bill to make it obligatory on Mem bers of that Hou c accepting situmions during the Regetlev, to vacate their seats in Parliament. The CHANCELLOR of the Ekcitsaueit had al ways thought that • oaiLeS conferred by the Ptince Regent, as Prince Regent (he did not speak of of fices it. his Duchy or Lancaslcr) , Aere to be consi d-r,d the same as offices held .under-the crown ; and therefore the existing provision he conceNed to be sufficient to meet all cases, in which the Prince Re gent ItiLht think it necessary to (stair, or re-ap- Voilltofnccrc. Mr. BENNETT gave notice, that, after the recess, Ile would move tot certain papers rehttir►g to the pu tisitment of soldiers. Mr. Ross brought in the Parish Register Bill, was read a first time, and ordered to be read a seconC to-inorrovv. TtHi PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE. On ifitsUrder ot the D ,y being read for the House r esolving itself into a Committee on the Messa z . , ,e of the Pit,sce respecting the Princesses, Al:. CRELveY expressed a wish that the subject 'Pight be deferred, as lie thought, before a new .charg e were hilt! on.the public, it might be proper to tlok int o the state of the revenue ot the country. — ' y ' 01 1) the lapels laid before the House by the Mi .ohters up to Jan. t 2, 1812., there appeared a dis paragement in the accounts of last year, of three I "ilhotis and a halt. On the COnsolidated Fun.t Vlere appeared a diminution of more ban one mil- I I ", while there was an increase of charge' en it, to I t'e amount of one million and nail. Though there a 4 still a surplus of the Consolidated Fund•remain .39g, did the Right Hon. Gent, think it impossible. 4 or this to be exceeded by the increasing charges on ihe fund In the event rat such becoming the actual state of thing s, he wished to - know in what way t he Alight Hon. Gent. would promise to meet the exi gencies of the case : whether by new taxes, by the 'lnterest of the Sinking Fund, or by any other ex- Vedieet Did he suppose that in such a state of ;ping s the holders of stock would be very well sa -I:shed with their securities. The state of the re `ehue ought to be looked into before new burdens v ere lard on the people, as alrrady a feeling ot dis trust had appeared. With die addition made to the Civil Gst, he thought tlie 30,0001. which it was ~Ou ire contemplation to charge on the Consolidated tl4 tt might have been avoided ; 7 0,0001 . had b een ad ded to ir. Fioin whin it formed): was, 58,0001. kt ki been given by the King to the Queen, and from l What was now raised to the Pi ince Regent , tatty, t herefore 17.0001. annually to the Princess ot Wales; tt appeared to hinythat this new application 10 Parliament was not necessary. He concluded by touving f e= 7 4n amen:norm!, That the House should on that day month resolve itself into the Committee. Mr. Rose, with resped to what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman respecting the securities of I ltockholdels, had to observe, that by an A& of the 47 th of the King, it was provided, that if in any quarter the Consolidated Fund should be found un equal to the charges on it, the first supplies of the year were to be applied in aid of it, and this lie toOceived was sufficient to make the Stockholder s e asy about their securities. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCREQUER said, the " honourable Gentleman had again brought forward *memento which might produce an improper im- Pression on the public mind. The &munition of . Three millions and a half (or 3,600,000;.) which had 'en spoken Of, was not the result of a proper com tla.rison, Such might be drawn from a-partial corn- Allison of the last, With the most productive year - ever • known; but instead of a diminution of 1' 600 ,0001. properly speaking, there was but a fall mg ofd of 1,260,0001. 'lois, too, was the result at ttime when the last years taxes could not have p een expected to take effed, so as to produce the souls at which they were rated. Under those cit.- v ihnstances, he thought there was no reason to ap 70rehend that the proposed vote should in any way t Paterially affect the security of the holders of stock. . as the Honourable Gentleman had seemed to this subject had been considered at the time the Prince's Household arrangements were made, the sum fur which he should move in the Committee Nust have been added to what they had voted at that time ; but it had been thought better to bring this subjed forward by itself, and on that ground it was postponed. The Honourable Gentleman had seemed to think, the sum they were to be called 'upon for in the Committee might have been easily Spared out of the Civil List. This might appear so to him, as he compared the 17.0001. given annually to the Princess of Wales, with the 58,0001. per srinurn which had been given to the Queen b y the ding, The fail, however, was, that the same de aion might be roade from the Civil L is t in the hands of the Prince, as had been made from it when ' l t was in the hands of the King, as her Majesty teived her 58,000 1 . per annum as, formerly. The Honourable Gentleman was also mistaken in the 1/ . 4 ni which the Princess teceived, as he understood : i t to be 57,0061. including 50001. which she received 411 , pin money, whereas she received 17,0001. ex clusive of pin money. It had been augmented from 1 , 2 ,0001. to 17,0001. in consequence of its being t notight necessary by the King to inake a more ample provision for her than she had formerly en joyed. In 1809, her debts had been stated to !Mount to 41,u001. Her income was at that time ,0001. per annum, exclusive of .50001. pin money. Prince; on that occasion, averse to any appii- Cation being made to the public, took her debts Iljon himself, and at the same time conceiving that they might have been tetilletaed in eetteequettee of the insufficiency of her income to meet her ex pences, be augmented it to seventeen thousand pounds. - It was found on a farther investigation of the business, that her debts amounted to 80001. more, and this sum, in addition to the 41,00n1. be fore mentioned, the Prince also took.upon himself. On a still more minute investigation of the subject, it was found that there was yet a small fradion more of 20001. and this last sum it had been thought rea sonable that she herself ehould pay out of her in creased income. Ihe Prince thus to prevent the charge being thrown on the public, took 49,0001. on himself of the debts of- the Princess. The Ho nourable Gentleman thought there was now a large disposable fund in the hands of the Prince. This was not the case, as every part of his income Much could be so pplied had been given to a Commission under the Seal of the Duchy of Lancaster, for the, purpose of liquidating those debts which had before been under the consideration of that House.. He strongly objected to postponing the Committee. Mr. Warrearterso coneutred with the motion-of his Honourable Friend, not that he thought the sum so large as to shake the public credit, . but be cause he thought it was necessary, that a full in quiry should be made into the present stateof the revenue.- He for one had imeeistoed that the Prin cesses were to live with the Queen, and on this ac count it was, .he conceived., that the addition of 10,0001. bad been made to her Majesty's income. He had told the Right Honourable Gentleman, that even after that 'be soppoSed some provision would be proposed for the Princesses ; but he thought that if such a provision were to be made for them, there was no necessity for adding 16,0001. to the income of the Queen. He then went over the statements made by the Chancellor of tee Exchequer, respect ing the debts of . the Prieceseof Wales, &c. auJ ob served, that aftei the very liberal grants whiCh had been recently made by Parliament to the Ro' at Fa-, miiy, it might have been hoped that they would not have been called upon again so soon. As this was now done, however, they might shortly exped to be called - upon to make an additional provision for the Princess of Wales. When they were told that the Prince nad taken leer debts upon himself, to pre vent an application on the subject to Parliament, they could not forget that at the time he did this, his own debts were unextinguished, to pay which, an arrangement had - been made, of a na ture the most injurious to the country; yet, in the same breath that the Right Honourable Geenlernan - hed told them of his Royal Highness's taking upon himself [lie debt's of the Princess, he had informed them that 70,0001. had been entrusted to a cotom,ssion, to' liquidate his owll. 'Why, this to him appeared the must complete juggle for the publiC that was ever heard of, that a person should underiake to pay the debts of another to save the people that expence, while lie came to gei his own yard by that same public. On the commission ap pointed for the liquidation of his Royal Highness's debts, he would obserte, that it was appointed, by the Prince, and that it was revocable by him. Thus the Prince Was now in possession of the sovereign power, with 130,0001. per aunt"' as it plei were, isd in , his privy purse, which be might applY as notwithstanding the appoir.tment of the commis sion which had been nientioued. Were they not to be as jealous of the Prince as they bad been of the C‘own itself ? The utmost that had ever been al lowed for the*King's privy purse . was 0,0001. He would ask, did the Right Hon. Gentleman hold himself responsible for the proper application of the money under the commission ? Did he kt.ow th a t when by the 70,0001. so applied, the whole Of the Prince's debts were paid, that the 36,0001. per an num they were now to be called upon for, would be repaid after a few years ? For this he contended they ought to have security, but at presenhthey had no security for it whatever. In his opinion it would be a better way to pay the whole of the Prince's debts at once,,,,and let the annuity of 70,0001. be revoked. • The question was put, and the amendment ne gatived. The House then resolved itself into a Committee. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having shortly taken a view of the present situation of the four Princesses, and of the provision formerly made for them in .the event of his Majesty's demise, ob served, that the melancholy .events which had taken place, though certainly by no means to be regarded as a demise of the Crown, had the same effeet of placing them nearly in the same situa • tion they would have been placed in by the actual demise of the Crown He apprehended that it would be necessary, in making a new provision, to set the former provision aside. It was his inten tion to propose, that to each of the four Princesses they should grant the sum of goool. per annum, exclusive of what they received from the Civil List. He should therefore move for the sum of 30,0001. At the death of one of them he would propose, that the survivors should receive 10,0001. per annum each'; at the death of a second, the two remaining to continue to receive 10,0001. each ; and on the death of a third, the sole survivor to receive t 2,0001. per annum. This arrangement, the difference in the times considered, he did not think would appear to the House as prop sin an umeasonable advance on the sum originally named as a provi-ton for the Princesses. The sum named, he wished to be un derstood, t 4 .23 to be divided a itiolg Ail the Princesses on the death of one of the Others, and receive 10,0001. per annum, and the last survivor to receive 12,0001. He had no reason to suppose the Prin cesses would wish to remove from the establish tnent on which they were at 'present, but if they did not choose to remain there the whole year loom!, he thought it was unreasonable that, at that per'ed of life they had attained, they should not be allowed the means of forming an establishment of their own, or of changing their residente at any period of the year for Weil' health, convenience, or pleasure. He concluded by moving, " That it is the opinion of the Committee, that an annuity of - 36,0001. be granted to the King, to citable him to Make a pro vision for the Princesses Augusta, Sophie, Erixabesh, and Maryeinstead of an annuity of 30,0001. former ly granted, to be payable out of the Consolidated Fund of Great Britain." Mr. TIERNEY understood the present grant to give the Princesses 15001.. per annum more than for tneelye making the total income of each 13,0001. per annum. He did trot say it was too much, but the former provision seemed to suppose that they were all to live together; while this seems to sup- pose they wt*okl prefer separate .estublishmtPts.--e If they were still to continue on the Civil List Esta blishment, this appeared to him a measure merely to hand over to thetti 90001. pet annum to put in their pockets; and if they were to be taken from it, he those lit some deduction ought to be areide from the Civil List on that account. Has great ''objeetion to the manner in which this business uas managed was, that it was done piece-meal-seio :bit at a time, so that the House did not -knew what. they evere doing. He had wished it all to he brose,ht before them at once, that an estimate of the wbehe might be made in the first instance. He would stAte what lied been granted altogether. In h sot, the Civil List was fixed at 960,000 J. when the 0,0601. was added to it. At the same time 135,0001. of the expermeea charged on it were taken away, so that it might he said there was here a further addition to the CiVil List of 135,0001. In the present Session it had been augmented by 124,01101. as till that excess was exceeded by 10;0001. no application on the subjea was to he done in,Parliement. In another instance 218,0001. 'w - as - to be -set down. He would take the Duchy of Cornwall at 10,0001. that of Lancaster at 15,0001. An addition of 70,0001. had been made to the Civil List this Session, and to this adding 30,0001. for the lour and one-half per cents. with the 70,0001. (of which 17,0001. was paid teethe Princess, and 53,0001. remained to the Prince), and the 36,0001. Which they were noe. called upon to vote, would make the sum total of the provision made for the Royal Family no less than 1,668;0001. He did not say that this provision was too great, but this he said, that they ought too lot* if they could not do with less. He thought there was much waste in - the Civil List, and believed, if a Committee were appointed, with proper powers, a sum of no less than 36,0001. annually might be saved, without diminishing the splendour or the comforts of the Royal Family. This Committee, however, was not to be appointed, or if appointed, they were not to be allowed to examine persons ; and the information got from papers was not always satisfaaory, - as in a late instance, where. an estimate of the sums .lire -sensed to Foreign Ministers was to be explained, all the information given was that one had been set down for two. . He gave no opinion on -the sum voted, but he wished to xarn the Honse how they were ,going on, and how they had been going on, till they got tlme provision for the Royal Family up to 1,700,0001. He did not. know why the Prin cess of Wales appeared in • her present situation. It was said the Prince and Princess were separated. It might be so, but as a Member of Parliament he knew nothing of it. There might be .very good .rea sons for their being separate, but he did not know what they were. The Right Hon. Gentleman (t he Chatacellor of the Exchequer) knew a great deal about it. He knew if the separation were just or not ; but he (Mr, T.) was surmised to see his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) favourite Princess left on the scanty allowance she had at present, for a scanty allowance it was, if the prevision made for the other .branches of the Royal Family were not too great. Arrangements might have been made of a very amicable neturee but he knew moiling of them ; but this be knew that the wife of the Prince Regent, who represented the QUeen as much as he (the Prince Regent) did the King, was allowed to be passed over unnoticed and negleEted under the protection of the Right Honourable Gentleman who was formerly her loudest champion. He thought, while the people paid es they did for the support of the Royal Family, they - had a right to expect to see tee Princess in a situation more suitable to her rank, as the wife of the Prince Regent. Mr. W. SMITH could see no reason for adding to the burthen of the public, by making the proposed increase of provision for the Royal F a mily, There were various ways of getting popularity,- and he had no hesitation hi saying, that when persons in the situation of the Right Hon. Gentleman were closely conneaed, as he was, with the ,Royal Family, a species of inclination to do that which would be agreeable to such high Personages was naturally ge nerated, which but few could resist. He could see no advantage in the spiettdour hich bad been spoken of, tied he believed the people of this coun try were better pleased with the blessings of the Constitution than with all the pomp of Royalty. He had noticed that in the countries on the Conti 'nent this splendour increased precisely iii the pro• portion in which liberty, or the appearance of it, was diminished. The Queen's Establishment amounted to 58,0001. per annum, while that of the Princess of Wales did not exceed 22,0001. who was to be looked upon as ostensibly the Queen of the country. . The splendour of the Crown, lie thought, was no less concerned in the situation of her Royal Highness, than in that of her Majesty. He thought it would be better to postpone the farther considera tion of this subject. Mr. PONSONEY said, that unless the Right Hon. Gentleman could give some further infoimation upon the subject, he should be obliged to vote against his proposition. When the Right Honour able Gentleman had made his statement to the House on proposing the new .arrangement in the establishment of the_Royal Family, he (Mr. Putt sonby) had objet9e'd to its complexity, and expressed his wish for a more simple plan—and in that wish lie was inclined to think that many would now 'juin, The present application Was not merely for an in• crease of annuity, but an anticipation of the period in which the annuities should be paid. What pre tence t hen, he would ask, could be given for such an anticipation ? Part of the Right Hon. Gentleman's plen was a grant of 10,0001. a year additional to her Majesty, upon an idea that her situation would be atiended with en increase of expellee ; but he (lid not know of any additional expenee in the artiee of horses and carriages (as was expeEted), since the grant was made. The Right Hon. Gentleman had also proposed a permanent addition to the Civil List ; but was not that addition granted upon an understanding - that the younger branches of the Fa mily should reside, as usual, with the Queen ? Yet now it was stated, for the convenience of time pre sent enguinent, that' the Princesses were likely to change their situation. If this was the case, he would say, that the same charge should not be made on the Civil List. But had the Right Hon. Gen tleman reason to know that their situations would be changed ? Did he know - that they would not re main in the same situation? It so, he was bound to state it to the House. It was, under all the cir cutrastances, a most unwarrantable and exelehragant proposition, and therefore he should feel himself obliged to oppose the Resolution. MT. PRETIMAITTLE tile/tight the pfoptred atemt4: Was due to the Princeses., from the situation in which they stood, and the distingukhed and ami able characters they possess. fiecertainly Was of opinion, that if the inquiry into the Civil L.st was gone into that night, the charge tuieit be provided for without hying any additional, burthen on the but in the meantime he - could not suspend his vote. His Right Hun. 'Friend, who had just spoken, had asked upon what pretence the antici pation could be justified ? fle would answer, upon a pretence of the situation in which the Prince-see stool, of the wish they most feel to 6e relieved Itotu the did, observation of domestic calamity witi,in the walls of the Palace. The country was called upon, from a consideration of their age and situa ti in, to make the grant, and he who had witnessed their charity, and heard of thc- goo,' ,hey did in the nelghbouihood around them, would consent most willingly to affbrd therb the me :ms of continuing theii benetaCtions. He sei;arated the question en tirely from that of the Civil Lis - , and should give lily vote in favour of it with the most heurttelu saA Telt% D. GIDDY - , as Chair Man of the Cothmittee appointed to inquire into the state of the Civil List ) expressed his conviaion that the Committee was most wilting to see what would be done m the way of retrenchment, and to apply for any documents - Which might guide them in their inquiry. Mr. BENNET said he could not agree that one shilling of the public money should be granted with , out previously inquiring into the state of-any other fund supposed to be capable . of furnishing it, espe , 'daily in the present situation of the country, when every post contained some account of the wretch. edness of our starving manufe&urers. He hoped that some information would be given respet.inig' the Princess of Wars—no one could be better in formed than ihe Right Hon. Gentleman on what was called the Delicate Investigation. He was at a loss to knoW why the same provision should not bo made for her as for the Queen of George the Third ? Why she should not be treated as a Queen of this Country ? They had heard of books being suppressed which were intended for her, vindication, and he could not suppose the Right Hon. 'Gentle man would desert his friend at present in her ut , . most need. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQURA could not help noticing the contradict ion between the sentence With which the Hon. Gentleman sat down,'end that with which he rose. He had commenced with stating, that until certain conditions weir: complied with, he would not grant a single shilling of the public money, and .concluded with affirming, that some increase should be given to then Princess of Wales. With regard to the sepaia• lion of the Royal Persons alluded to, be should say nulling. He might and did lament it as much ns any one posSibly could; but neither a a Minister, nor in any other charaaer, did he lea hirusel•f. called upon 'to say any thing on the staa Jett. As to what had been said respecting the grant of the ten thousand pounds additional to the Queen, the Committee must be aware, that it I,viet entirely' of a different nature from that now under conside tai ion. Its objeel was to enable the Queen to meet eXeences which she would he likely to incur oc conneaed in any manner with the Princesses. There Was ho increase in the Civil List of the Prince • Of Wales above that of the King, on the contrary, there was a diminution. As to the Civil List iiself, though it was perfectly understood in that House it • Was not in other plaCes and representations were often made - as if the Civil List was entirety at his Majesty's disposal. • When the Right Hon. Gentle man spoke of the increase to the Princesses, it might not be an extravagant demand, but it had nothing to do with the Civil List. An Hon. Gentleman had slid, that a splendid allowance would be male to the Princesses, if they would all live together, but he was sure the House would not be inclined to measure out its liberality on such an under standing. Another - HonourableGeotleman thought that things should continue to go on in the same way, and that the Princesses should re main as usual in the House of the King and Queen ; but when they looked to the time of life they had arrived at, and the amiable charthera they had maintained, he was sure that was not the way in which they would be willing to deal with them. Though he did not agree with the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Freemantle) in his expectations from the Civil List, he concurred with him in regarding the two questions as distina, and in resisting any . delay of the present grant in contemplation of any other inquiry. Mr. WHITBREAD defended his Hon. Friend (Mr. Bennet) from the charge of iuconsistency, and thought it - most natural that he should wish to see the Princess of Wales placed in that situation in which he believed every person in the count!) , wished to see her. It was rather alarming to un derstand from the Right Honourable Gentleman - , that if a reconciliation should - take place in a quar ter where every one must desire it, are Right Ho. pourable Gentleman would have to come down to the Howe to ask a new grant. There was no propriety in inquiring as to the situation of the Prin• cess of Wales. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said;that he would stale nothing as Minister on Ilse subject ; but the tihie was, when the Right Bon. Gent. was pot only willing to give information to every subject in the country, but had a book ready, which was to have gene not only through the PubiTe of this Country, but through all Europe: This book the Right Honourable Gentleman bad since purchased up and suppressed, for what reason he knew not. Undoubtedly, as Counsel to her Royal . Highness, be was in a situation the most natural to be called upon for inforMation, though it was pos• sible he might now remain mute, when he in tended to have had ten thousand tongues be tore. But the Princess of Wales was not only in ferior to the Queen in point of real income, but the Queen had the advantage of being also en the establishment with her Husband, The Print;e;ii of Wales, on the contrary, was living in retirement, at Blackheath, for as to separation, though he and 'others had used the word, the public knew nothing more than that she lived in retirement ; and now they knew that if ever matters came on a better footing, a fresh grant of money would be demanded. It had been said that they might go into the in quiry on the Civil List atter the 'giant was made ; but making ties grant under such circumstances, was patting with an advantage to which he coati ' not consent. I should concur with his Rtght