The Sun. — London, England, 1805-03-09 00:00:00

iealeus sopeortere of that Bid, were in the House, I - coneineion wits come to against the Returning till he wri't beard in his defence. There was ror other precedent which here upon the present case. With respell to the general question, he should beg ie:►ve to submit a kw questions to the House, whirl), to save them trouble and time, he should answer himself, and by monosyllables, Does the House or does the Law give a Copy of the chatge against them to the Returning Officer ? No.—Have the Cemrnittee power ao bring the Returning' Officer to trial ? No.---Have the turning Officers power to oblige the Committee to tyv them ? No.—Have they the right of challeng. Ins any' rihmber of the Jury by which they arc • to try them ? No.—Have they 'a voice in ap. pointing them ? No.—Have they a voice in ap. pointing nominees 1. No.—ln is case where there were three parties, two were allowed to chose nominees in the House, whilst, the third was put upon trial without any such advantage, He con. tended, therefore, that the Sheriffs had a right to be heard by Counsel. It Lid been frequently of late thrown in the teeth of the House that they could not examine witetosee on oath. This could never have been the spirit of the Constitution, and if they had not that power, it was time they should have it, and he was bore no branCh of the Legislature would ohjeti to it, Here he thought it not amiss to advert to what had been the praitice of the Irish Patna. ment in similar cases. The question often occurred, and the prattice had been to retry the Sheriffs, and hear overall the evidence. This had beers found troublesome and laborious to the House, and there. fore they passed en AO, whereby the copy of the, charge was direded to be "given to the Sheriffs, .and the Committee had power to tryAlle'vehole ease, so that their decision was final and conclusive on the 'House. Ott a future day he should move for leave to bring in a Bill similar .to that which had been passed in Ireland. He concluded by moving, that the word " now" be left out: Lord MARSHA!' concurred in the ohjetl'of the Hon, Gentleman, though lie differed with him in his statement of feCts, and the conclusions which lie drew from them. He agreed with that Huth Gentleman in wishing the Sheriffs te be, heard by Cottiisel, land on this subjeft there had been hardly any difference in theConunitteeo whose sentiments he expressed.", The whOle of the ettidenceundOubt. edly, had not been : hid befoie the House, but such harts had been seleCted as were bests. calculated to r habit: thetn to form a just opinion on - the condusl of the Sheriffs. All that dry, parr of the evidence reseeEting particular votes, which could throw' no reht on the subject, had been Omitted. As to the • areeetion that, the Sheriffs had riot been fully 'heard, . lie should say, 'thatethough the Committee had in. formed their Counsel. that they need not attend out. log the whole of the Scrutiny, the COunsel far the ,Sitting Member had attended re their interests,, and were ;Snowed the- privilege of cross.examination,— The Noble Lord made a few other observations on some of the statements of the Hon. Member that preceded himond c o rt e r oled with detlitrieo his wish, and that of the Committee, to be,titat Counsel should. be heard. Mr. PO X' tholijlt it miiteeessery to trouble the House, ;Ater threopiniett that had been giveteby the Noble Leal. He should only olLerve, that all the ergtheeete that had been used on a former day up. agaieet the heating of evidence, not against the heating of Conroe!. The argument hot been, that the evidence on oath before the Committee %yes (teeter Phan ;try parole evidence. The House had decided this question ; but he, notwithstanding that decision, rem.* 0.1 of iris former opinion, and thought that eeidenei ought to he heard before they a,, reed to the Report sit the Committee, and'conse. ourroly Counsel. The Committee had had the - ad. vantage of tire ottonents of Cettiesel, of which they bad not made eq.' Report l . Why should not the House sletee the enjoyment of that advantage? It had he'en argued titer site Horse ought to have ceefulence in , their Committee and agree to the Relerets But why sup there ?--Whe not place the s a me coefidence in their recommendation to hear Counsel ?-.es -le thought it an extreoldirotry themes,. eteece, for a Member-of great weight in that House',. for talefktS atta official situetion, to come - down and persuade the House to a coeclusion in the teeth of all his precedents. 'He herd that some way wo uld be found out for heating C, Lintel on the present case, as t he cant very ceuree riot be very honourable to the House. k-if e -et bah:. 'The MASTER of the ROLLS, was of opinion, that some legislative measure ought to he' resorted te in order . : to settle this question, which "certainly sio , d it present upon bad grounds. Either the Committee ditnlici have the whole judgment of the tose, or the House should retain it altogether. The seaation whether Colima:l should be heard was not to be decided try w.,), abhttatt reasoning, . .but by ohat had been. the practice ,of Perliament. All C.4l.3rts of Justice lotd the same principles. He did notelerow how far the Sheriffs were bUund by the Re. port of the Cummittee; that yeas to be regulated by the politico of the house. The liOn. Gentleman had k ,idi,ther he did not agree With the decision of the lhasehn a former day. He had not been hiriiielf it, the House •at the time of ,that decision, .• but fully cancelled in it. There had been no instance' of heath% evidence or ,Counsel On the Report of a Seidl 'Committee, when Eit'etiOn Cases were re . ferred to such Committees formerly; •and sheet the Grenville Ad, ' there wilts additional reason for corifidirg in the Report of Seitel Commit, There was nothing ln that Ad s to give to the House the power / Which it lout never ex. ercisettWith respect to forinet Stied Committees. No Count of Appeal tries' the merits of a judg. mem; hut the evidence on which that judgment is f o unded. It would be an anomaly to distribute the power of decision half to the Committee, and half to the Horse. They had.the written evideoee, but tiny had not the advantage of confronting the wit. P6J,CS therefor . , : it Would'he desirable to hear CouOsel, If they W e ek to try the Sehole cave they bLI H old hear evideece, and as it might he possible - that arch evidence might induce them to reject the , 11Di de u ce taken Imiore trio %.-011ttee, he could rot e a s ily say v• hat courbe.in she'll a rase ought to'b r e adopted. telpatoey evidonceetoo might be produced, which w ako lead to et d;cult rro,.ct9itil the Revolutions - e'.4 the e`.:Ortireittee. All theeceireurristances proved ete l eforeeolegislattee, entestrie Illcessitry :thew .4ow t. .eturning xer s. inconvenience would arise from allowing a full hear. ing in the Committee and in the House. A clause similar to the provision of, the A& in Ireland had been proposed to he added to Mr. Grenville's Bill in / 78, but was afterwards, he knew not why, with. d rawn.ll he were tojudge from the mere reason of the thing, he should be of opinion that Counsel ought to be heard. Every Court was infinitely assisted by hearing the arguments of Counsel in forming its decision. Nojudgr, if he were to receive the case in writing, and .consider it in his closet, could have the same comprehensive and clear view of it al after having had the advantage of the arguments of Counsel. It was impossible for any one mind to consider all the bearings of. a case, as completely as he' would be enabled to do after it had been dis. cussed by a number of persons. For his own part, he wished for the benefit of Counsel. The only point was, whether that would be consistent with the pra(fice of the House. It had been said in a former Debate by some Gentlemen, that it would be proper to hear Counsel in some state of the bu. siness ; but he was of opinion, that if they were to be heard in any, it ought to be the present stage, which would be more advantageous to the House, and to the parties, than if they were to be heard when they came to discuss the degree of punishment There was a total absence of precedents, for there was no case of Counsel being offered. If the case had been only left sub si/ensio, it would be for the I-louse to determine how far it should admit a prac.. lice on which the law was silent. He threw out these observations for the purpose of their being considered by those who were more conversant with the usage of Parliament. be ft Otti 111001 d be tried clttilt The' CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER perceived, that the question was rendered much nay. rower than in is former Debate, when the Hon. Gen. tleman's (Mr. Fox) argument went to hearing the whole of the case., The Motion of the Hon, Gen. tleman (MT.SHERt DAN), which he understood•the other 1-lon. Member to acquiesce in, was solely con. fined to the hearing of Counsel. If Counsel were at all to be heard this was the time ; and if the House should be of that opinion, he should not oh. jed to it. At the same time he confessed, that from the best consideration he had been able to bestow on the subje'd, he was not aware of any case in which the, party had been heard either by his Coon. Icel or by himself. But there was a variety of cases, and no doubt there inus4 be some of them bearing on this question, and shewing what was the sense of Parliament upon it. The Resolution of the Com mittee had been accompanied with the evidence, and appeared to him to come under the fourth head con tained in the,Report 'of the Committee appointed in 1789 to examine into precedents.. He did not think, and he was sure no Gentleman who heard him could think, tha,t much light could be thrown upon the particular cape by the arguments of Counsel, how. ever it might be desirable with a view to the gene. rat principle to have them called in. He agreed, that the question ought to be decided not by any abstrad reasoning, hut lay what had been the practice of the. House. The point of importance was, not to set the example' of departing from the pradice of Parliament, nor to follow the example of attributing less , Weighr to the decision of their Committees. As, however, 4 number of Gentlemen seemed to lit of opinio'n that Counsel should be heard, and hit Learned Friend also inclined to that opinion, he should not have any objedion, provided, how. ever, it was to be clearly understood, that no other proposition was to be grounded on his agree ing to this. • Mr. SHERIDAN had the hearing of Counsel only .in, view, though he remained ci the same opi. nion with his Hon. Friend as to the former decision of the House., • Mr. FULLER hoped that the Hon. Member had not intentionally omitted the name of Mr. RCM FuLts it in hisenurneration of those who had sup. ported the Grenville Mt. A short conversation then took place re:petting the proper course to be followed when the question that the debate be now, resumed, was carried in the affirmative, for the purpose of moving afterwards that Counsel be called in. Mr. SUR RID AN then informed the House (after baid;mg Come in from the lobby,, .where be bad been in search of the Counsel,), that the Learned Gentlemen, supposing the proceedings would 'be the same as on the former night, weft not prepared to proceed. Mr. FOX contended, that they had no right to conclude that any other course would be adopted than that which had taken place on a former night ► and he put it t,o the candour of the Right Han. Gentleman himae whether he was net of the lame opi • nion. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted, that he did think the present ques tion involved in the former one. But whe n t he debate had been last. adjourned, it was u n der a distintienorice of the present Moti o n, a n d Ihere. . tore the Counsel ought to have been prep ikr o.— He was not disinclined to grant any time consist ent* with the Orders cl the House, but it wa s d e m., gatory from the dignity of the house to sor e r it ' self to ,be trifled with. Ti the Counsel, when called in, could assign any good reason for no t b e i ng prepared to proceed, he should have.no objedi m to agree to any convenient interval before the, debate should be resumed. The Order for resuming the debate being then read, and the 'Come' being called in, on the Yin tion of Mr. SIitRIDAN, Mr. Apish( appeared at the Bar, as COLIII,CI ,for the. Sheriffs, and stated, that he was fat perfally prepated ; but, if the House desired, he would proceed in the best manner he could, He allowed it was highly unbecoming, in any man to appear at the Bar of the House of Commons otherwise than with every preParation which the best exertion of his faculties would ena. able him to attain. But if he may take the liberty of alluding to any thing that had passed in that Holm, there were some circumstances that hail ap. peare4 in the printed votes of the House, which, in some measure, justified his present deficiency of preparation it was at first to be understood Iron' thew votes, that it was tht intention of the House toihear COunsel ; from a subsequent vote, it was understood that Cottnstl uas not to be heard. lie was now in attendance merely fromthe accident of has-log been in the neigh 6 tkthood, which had af. f or d e d hi, Clients the vpportunily of informing him ' SUN.OFI ICE, HALF PAST TWO, P. M. WE stop the Press to announce the arrival of Paris Papers to the 3d inst. and Datclo Jour:salt to the 7th. The Moniteur of the 28th ult. contains the fol. lowing article : " The Toulon Fleet sailed the 15th of Januar.) , last, having on board a body of Troops under the command of Gen.LA =ON. After being four days at sea, it was overtaken by a violent storm, which compelled it to return to Part. A Ship of the Line and three Frigates had parted from the Fleet. The Frigate La Cornelie, which had cast anchor in the Port of Genoa, and the Ship of the Line ,which had sailed for Ajaccio, are already arrived at Toulon. The Frigates l'Horttnre and l'lncorilltible have been more fortunate; they fell in with an English Merchant Fleet of 40 sail, and had taken ur destroy.. id the whole of them. Two large Corvettes, which convoyed this Fleet, also fell" into our hands, after an engageinent, which continued an .hour. L'Her• Imre and l'incomplible have put into a Spanish Putt, where they sent 5 or 600 Prisoners on shore.' The itioniteurt of. the Ist instant give some de_ tails of the Aaiun, which we are compelled to post. pone. The Adiun with the Arrow lasted an hour and a (patter, when she struck her Flag to tk►o Incorruptible French Frigate. The Bomb also struck to the other Frigate, after a short r e . sistance. The number of wounded on buard the Arrow is stated at 30. A Ship at the Line, and two Frigatess, seearated from the Toulon Fleet in a storm, and were obliged to put into a Port in Corsica to repair, The departure of the Emperor for Italy is an. flounced to he ,very near at hand. General VICTOR, Grand . Officer of the Legion of Honour is appointed Ambassador •at the , amish Corm, ,in the town of M. DAGNIastAu, who is appointed a Metoer of the Ctinservative Senate. Geueriel . JuNoT, with a retinue of about so ptr. sons, ha's sqt off for PortozA, 36 Autb.mailot at the Court of Libbon. LflgllSn is( OT V3117ii.4 *a. D 6o men, was wrecked the 233, between :Vim. reaux end Virnille. The whole of the clew W&s saved. WE this morning received some .more of the Hamburg!, Papers, from which we have made the following extraCts : Vllrt ICI, JAN. 25. —Four English Frigates have arrived here from Malta, to take in cor n. The largest carries forty guns, and three hundr ed men. AMSTERDAM, Fan. 2.—The Italian Re p nblie will now soon be suppressed, and the Kin g dom of Lombardy established in its stead. We have 11 ', counts here, that. Ills French Imperial Majesty li consented to accept the Royal Crown of LomnardY . Prince josermhaving made difficulties with telPe 4 to receiving it, the Nephew of the Emperor° Son of Prince Louts, is to be the eventual So°' soy to the Throne of Lombardy. I NAPLES, JAN. to.—Prinee CARDITOLAII, Ves! politan Envoy to Copenhagen, has been lately Ont to General Sr. CYR, and the Court appears perfeetly well satisfied with the ft cult of It is understood that the French General ti Glared that he will not pass the stipulated LIM Demarcation, so long as the Foreign Troops vicinity shall make no hostile movements. Row, JAN. if —The report circulated hOre tbi the arrival of three Russian Ships of the'P ein _, Harbour of Naples is entirely without ffs lrcuwets' Lion ; only one Russian Ship of the Lin e ttl arrived from the Seven Islands is at prop' is that Harbour. This is a Ship of 74 gaol l int/ W oo bound to Leghorn to take in provisions, I s l infettious distemper prevailing there, preo lltd "m T in e dkingthevoy t voyage. The Imperial Envoy Napliil,COUnt 1 C 4 " 111 : had passed through Rome, on his way to th eo of his destination. . f Yesterday morning Fits IVi.titsTc sr"' ej 'indoor, at ten o'clock, from Kew. , fig His MAJEsT .1 Y, accompanied by Count wilio'fia and General MANNERS, insptaed the Itots j i t hat Guards in Windsor Great Park, and hea d through Windsor to the Barracks. . t o' ! A t li Yesterday, at one o'clock, H IVIAi" OW the PRINCESSE S left the QUEEN'S House l o t sor. . •••••••........••• . A V PRIXHAM•QUAY, TORBAY, MARL ° 1 .. " . 0 4, if whole of the Channel Fleet, under Ceintlll Sr Admiral CORNWALLIS, art now under Fve i g h , , a tine wind at S. E. z A ' h ' Spi l/411 Si PLymouTH, MARCH 7. —Arrive. t..e d 0 1 Ship Sacra Familia, laden with sugar, log sv t:l4 a quantity of specie, from Vera Cruz, caPt — cili the Western Islands by the Pallas . Fagan . 1h lain Lord Coe lIRAN It. --.. The Pallai PA" ShiP, t captured it) r richly ofl the sapdeecni fo lg rn ' o c . r b r o u va n r i de e fa a c n r o u t z h , er ha l v a i r n g g e a SP l e m n f i 9 c - 410 . 1 0 1 ;, 01 t9hBe guns, urrnisv,a to o of i o w l. a h i t ch 19 / s expeCted, being left in company with tiler /i d: l ;ot' Arrived-also the . 7ohn, Capt. Key's ir ll , flO l / B C7 B r i k a i w , le i d w th t i i t l w i e l i i p n )r e r o s i v n i c s e i:::p e s 11 ° L t d " ' t the 8 1 P i t s;' ) ; -iv.lEdl6 War from the Downs. ; Flee p t o . ivr . Frigate, A the Cliiii b w M i O t U h T t H h , e MARCH B s ,, t -- othriteel A iss t i. r h i ami v pr e ,l u oiissi h iti e rci i: 4o ll ll ll : ll o ::: of outward bound Vessel* under Convur ' l , f "414 Fire. ; Alcmene Frigate from GlltlitSCY ; i', / tor, F , lt_e• ship, and Dun-hers tfYork Cutter from a Toot _Fassed . by from the Downs the Ramie', 0 ,0 4 . war to join the Channel Fleet ; Lai, ' 4 i,,g rit. Pretty Lan Armed Ship., with Convoys, `,"" ' mouth and Falmouth. w t ,.- with Sailed the Hi/do/tan and bit Men Of " al s i,dbosti the Earl Howe, Lord Dliffrag, Waltalet "'" IP . CO ( Cgrmarthen,OreMt i kylon,Calcutta , Sur ftY ' the S 4, tan, and the fbiznix, under Convult f l r „ . 0 . 0; 41 :: Indies; Drake Sloop of War, with serera',,Cerar , bound West India Men under Convo y , , 1 1, se 1 and the Albicorr and Merlin Sloop Ili " 11- • Cruize off Havre. t 1 ' e It was the Young Pbartir, and not the iitierds' Jersey, that that brougnt the unpleasant news l e- - from the Mediterranean. ~,, i iel# l . • „.„ Fl L Astwickt, MARCH EL—The F ;r1 V Af i lifillig racti.et, Capt. T Ho i i p soN , an d ghe'Priatir; 04 Capt. A. DEANE, sailed this day, with.? lai r o o gto': the first for Husum, and the latter with th e . ' ,: i t burgh Mail, : the .i(aldlst s _ er C v o lc u e n , t G we s n z t e ri p Z a O ss F e F ng li, er a - in General in a .kitur r Packer. 0 Pil DEAL, MARCH B.—Sailed Chifonne. to the Westward. , ,y e fr - o A rp r s r t i l v ic e i d d, :l a le nd i f fl e i m ll a irr i g ns e . on Armed 1) 6° 7 . I ~ 00 1 ; 0 in°, _ The Troops reported yesterda y Scotland, disembarked this morning in b o oed ; smacks, and' were landed at Dover, to P! Shorncliffe Barracks.. .. . ' . BIRTHS. L ay 0 I 1 On Thursday se'nnight, at Stour bridge,, tt o , , 401), .taro Darber, 05 the 7th Light Dragoons. (),.t 2 : ° 'fr . ' Yesterday, Mrs. Archdale Palmer, S IICI3-11 1 a ttiil-born child, NavyA per C. 89 p i g s :cii oi s ruCKs. Bank Stock, shut India Stock, 6 0 , India Bonds, 11. Pali C e er ' l. - 1 797, shut Irish 5 per Cent. 3 0 " p m tl e ci r n sh i e c o g e m u n c, t f . 3: gii ills, , I c g re i r o a ci . t . 5 1 1 4 per Cent. shut / per Cent. Red. shut Lim , Ct. Cott sq. 5 g Imperial 3 Per Y ill a..ank I. Ann, shut Ditto Short Ann. shut ?sl* ~,LY Al I O'Ci , 6.• • wl..9lktit.:liiiirn.lo,,Acrrilt Sslo . Consols - 1111 0 0 f ,frig rw- f . I.oNrooiN : Printed by R. HARRIS • (° l O ( o ,‘ / ' Bow-street}, aa:l publlsh:d 4 by W• ;:re' 4 trsoki• 1 4. • ' ";,in thrll3 L;* "--, rtlat 11111 prCAPTICe Waa lIKEly . rO oc frqUITCCI. 11C 100 K the liberty to remind the House, that there was no Order for hearing Counsel this day ; and, though having formerly turned his mind very attentively to the whole of the circumstances of this case, and the law connected with it, he may possibly be still .ca pable of calling many branches of it to his recollec titin, so ss not to be totally unqualified to present a statement of it to the House, yet he would consider it as a matter of favour to himself, and advantage to his Clients, it he was allowed time to review the case. He therefore conjured the House to permit him again to look attentively over the precedents of Parliament in this case, from the earliest times, anti the law conneaed with them ; as, without this revision, he could hut ill discharge his duty. The indulgence of the House would be applied by him in the best manner he could to the convenience of the House itself, by concentrating all that was import. ant in the fads of the case, in the precedents, and the law upon them, so as to take up as little time as possible in his statement. The Counsel having withdrawn, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that after what he had heard from the Counsel, though he was not satisfied that the 'Counsel had not heard something which it was not so proper for him to hear, he would not press the hearing of Counsel this day. But after all the delays this bu siness had experienced, he begged it to be under_ stood, that he made this concession on no other ground than that the proceedingsshould be fixed for the earliest day in the next week,.and that whatever business stood for that day should. give way to it. He trusted farther, that Gentlemen would come prepared to bring the matter to a final decision, •as the hearing of Counsel, now that the hearing of evi dence was no longer insisted upon, would not take up so much time as to prevent the House from corn.. ing to a decision the same night. He would move that this debate be further adjourned till Monday, and that Counsel be then heard. He trusted farther, that as no other business would stand for that day, the House would proceed to this matter at / four o'clock. The Debate was accordingly adjourned till Mon. day, and the Counsel to be then heard. Mr. FOSTER, in consideration of the import. ante of this business, consented to put off the Irish Budget from Monday ; but as all the lathh Reve. nues would cease on the 25th of March if the Ads granting them, which were annual, were not re. newed before that time, he could not possibly con. sent to the delay, except on the understanding that his Budget would be allowed to go on on Wedoes. day. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER expected also that the proceedings on the Tax Bills, which were fixed for Monday, and put off ,only in consideration of the Sheriffs' business,would be for. warded on Tuesday. The Notices whiohstood for Monday were put off to subsequent days. The remaining Orders were disposed of, and the House adjourned till Monday. MAILS. A itit IV ID- I Dublin. Du a- io tiambiirgh. 2 Gottenburgb' .1 Lisbon, t Dublin, 2. WattuforAl. THE SUN. • • • - SWAM QUIS DICARR FALSUM AUDEAr ? LONDON, lATURDAY, MARCH 9, 130 g.