The Sun. — London, England, 1812-06-23 00:00:00

hoer. reit it his duty to bring it forward.—(Trear, 1.1:?.rr hear.)----`The obstacles which had fcinnerly • 's too , ! in its way were such; that in his opinion, to brier it forward could have but the effect ain urioiisly the public mind. Those 0b. 7 stifles, to which he particularly alluded, existed longer: The unfortunate situation of the King, and after' the time which had elapsed, there was, at, preSent :between Parliament and the lixecutiNe Power no objection to the Measure. He agreed With the• llight Honokirable Gentle . - man,7that WPaat had taken Plaice in th course of. 1: the Session,. evinced n ditpositionnon the part of : Parliament.; to. enter into a consideration of the Which did' .not appear hefors'. ) ; - and this vent to prove, that; the time was come, -when, it was almost impoable for any Government to pause on the propriety of taking it into consider- . ation. He wished to he underStoode that he only 'expressed his awn individual sentiments,- as the otter Members of the Cabinet -bad done theirs ; and, he trusted, the line be took,. on-the present occasion, would be found con intent with what he had frequently stated, that thounh,tfninethe sir comstauces Of the times, heewas obliged to resist if then,. he Was still friendly to the measure. Be-. fore the Union be had bad it in 'itis mind thatthe progress of eirennistandeS would hare a terridency to introduce the -Catholics into the tiias tittition, even-if Ireland bad remained a separate country, - and' this' had iocem With him one • inducement to peess the Union, Which he trirt - ted tetoild pisve mete.sure of cOnciliattoo andmatuakndvantage. He then noticed :that - anomato in the Constitution evel.i.,ll was oresented ~b y the sitnation of the dish Catholics, echo3e. coodnet had been so. imOxeeptioosble, that it bad never eenetec.ted them even to the- -least rionete of imprudence, yet they were not only - labouring under all the ditebilities • cinoplainefl of by the Catholics of 'but they were exposed to the - penal laWs, the ope • ration of which was such, that the humarmity of the tieies would not suffer thetti to be enforced. Wherohe !oeleed this, he had always felt that the Constitution. could not rest securely till some alteration was effected. This stench hifit the more foreibly, when he eimsiTered. that in Scotland a Cath&ic might fill the liehest °Kees in the State, while their sinationnvas.such as be had described 'in England. Feeling that the Constitution could not rest so, he had looked forward to ,the.l.Tnion as to that .which might accelerate the means of effecting a-Changer and it was now .for theni to make the hest use of the situations in 'which they were platted. He bad e , however, never looked forward to a .concession_ of the Catholic Claims as a uneesure that could he eithee wise or politic, nteless it were accompanied yeith safeguards,Whicb world sufficiently guarantee the _safety of the Constitution. With respect to the securities Ile ce,sary to be given, he had- never looked to any that went to impose any thing at varianee with the principles of their religion ; he had never wished, for any concessions that would degrade or dishonour them, or that were not as valuable tm be ceniceded by them as to-be received by the Protestants,- Ile had wished for no securities . • which the Catho!ics bad not recognised in other cooetries, as compatible with the principles of their relinion: lie-had wished to follow the ex-. ample to ear Catholic ancestors, in the measures they took roe guarding against theefiectsof fo, • reigi inffueoete As to what had been- said of the Pope, he would stay,- that, however feeble lie might be in the hands of the Tyrant ofTrance, be would be formidable in England, and still-more so in 'lreland: It -had been said- that the Pone had rrot nominated an Irish Catholic bishop for a considerable • nuroher oftyearSt He doubted the .correctness of this statement ; but if it were Cott-: rest, it was to be remembered, that if -that con tended for a ere allowed, he might nominate every Irish rishop. The See of Rome, as. at present e existing, and likely to esi , t, might give Buono.- . parte. of • giving the Papal dignity -to CardinaCresch e 'What influence might he not gain by sneh . means in Irelaod ?. Ile could not , • be mere aware of the danger on this head tban the Gentleman (Mr, Grattan) himself, • nsbchad on -a former occasion,. When he brought the- question on th.e Catholte Claims; 'stated- it to . be essential _to the security. of the em pire,-beat etve shunt, be properly guarded -against the effeets- of foreign influence-tin Ireland. - 'He - , did not sarthat the existence of foreign influence should' eXeludee then from - the.Constitutiony but this.he said, that when: they were admitted to the . Constitution, they, ought to unite withtuS in pro tecting it against all foreign enemies. Re Wished them to subscribe to nothing to which - they had not already, subscribed . other countries. In Spain, •as had been stcted by an Hon: Baronet,' whose accuracy and historical knowledge could be depended upon, though the most bizotted cOun - try in Ludo?pe, it had been thoughtmeeessary-to onard against the influence -of the Pope in the of the State. - lie thought with the Catho lics in Ireland, there ought to exist.-no connection which was not 'avowed mid notorion.S. He wished riaat passed between them to be pOlic, to guard • a.getiost the suspictizel of nik' ser.et. foreign isiflti • erne.. - Lie wished theEL...Me to Understand, that • he had thought of .requiring' ,no, securities 'Which the CatnolieS had net given in other Countries to guaett against a foreign secretinflunnce, which they knew might be abused. He had no oblec ti.on 'to vote ton the motion in its taegest sense.,_ aeti no objection to the C'atho'lics beieg admitted ..to the fUllest paeticipntion to the Constitution, , provideci the requisite, securities were-given.. The tentfits which Would result feom their being ant nritt4ed into. the :Constitptien would consist in their feeliog - tionnsel ve , t, placed on a. footing of eeteality. with - theft Proteetaut brethren, feeling that the Catholics would no longir,be dangerous to the. Protestants. If it ytere ;tot gone, the tj ut, • tion must be: ertpected to`. come :Infore them year after. veare till the Protestants and•Catholies were settled on a.footing of •poitical equolitye'Re bad -no hesitation in warmly concurring with the eso lution, and with tie proposition for a final adjust -lof .the Catholic_Claims, Ile on!,y desired that adequate regolations might be made, and this done, be was will; ote to concede all they asked. Itle had no objection to the second resolution of ehe Right Lion. Gentleman, which went to lay the resolution LONIQN : trint t d by Ti. At the Suzz'OkEis then urider cc;risideration . 'Wore the Prince Re , gent, if it event no further ; but if it was. meat to advise the Crown .to direct Ministers to brie.- forwnrd a measure in conformity with the wish of that resolntio'n, he,coOld not agree-to' it. It woold be a'hard task to impose s upon a Govern ment, to frame theoneasitre according to the ideas of an individoal, under such circumstances as they . would be called upon to. frame'one under, if they weie s calied upon in the present instance. He did hot net ail : that Grivernment s wonld not take the subject into'theic considaration, but to frame a -measure like: that propose;l, and under circum stances _like the preent, he did not conceive was a fair duty to impl•ise"upon any Government. Ile knew of no-disposition in . any quarttir of the Aa mthistmtion to make it a Cabinet questiOn. Every one took that ... part Which his own judgment dic tated, He should be Old t' things Nt'El:fein. Sod,. a stat?..-that it could he uo taken ; but where . there was such a • variety of opi.itioos on the vi'O ject, be could not think the Government would t be likely to carry it so fitr as an iodivdaial. Ali he could say was,that holding those he 4ad entertained ever since the blion, which were on4ecortl, and which he 1i ul never had any diSposition or occasion to ehaoge, s he was most _anxious in his individual ca . pacity t.!-) s ex`ert Ii to 41f in or out: of Parliament, any. w:ty that lniaht giVe the Cath'olics th WhiCh claimed; the . , „ provided measure coma be accompanied by . those. securities Which the PrOtestants bad a right to expect. , Such a ineaatre would be most bene ficial iii-establishingthe authority of the Govern- . meitt ,of Ireland, and that it,was ,impossible that the Catholic interest would make them act . to gether as all dissenters did, and a 3 it was bi na-L ture for them to ; still he 'thought it better that they should act 'within the COustitution than out of 4.---. Upon the whole, the question was not free fro . rn ConstittitiOnardanger,• and though it: might be difficult 4 - o: devise adequate securities, still, in - the present State of the C.l:.to.olie mind, and in the present state Of Papal power, it would" be well to look at the difficulties which opposed them= selves to .the measure; get o\'er thew if they could, and if they could not, atleaSt to get so near the difficulties as to be able to state in Parliament ,where - the " hitched," add that ascer tained, if the obstaCletvitre 2oarable, it would be seen that l?ri lament had done what they could and then he iliould hope, with thatknowledge the public would be satisfied, and the qUestion settled 'anti set at rest. Having thus explained his sentiments, he had onlyto say, that the reason 'he had not done so before, was, that difficulties were in the way, which, in his opinion, tenderedthe agitation Of the subject improper : those diflicialties, removed, he Was as anxious for an inquiry into - the claims of the ‘ Catholics as any one could be. Mr. TIER . NEY commented at some length and with much sevetrity on the speech of the - Noble Lord. 'He 'augured • ill for the Catholic question from it,: as the Noble Lord thought it would. be very hard to, expect Governthent to bring apea sure for the relief of tre Catholics in compliance with the, wishes the .HOUse. - He characterised the GoVernmetit weak, imbecile, and ,Jiange able, censured tbedli for taking no part in a ques tion of such important:7e, and hoped in the. course of the summer they Would come to some determitaa7 thin On the subj4ct, and communicate the same to the•Cathialics. Mr. B. BA:TETI:MST defended the conduct of Mi nisters in not making it a Cabinet question, and maintained that Parliament ,was only pledged to the consideratiOn :of "the' question, and that the Oo , etninent was bound to - propose no specific measures,: on. the subject.. 'lt was his opinion they were only bound to a general consideration of the question, and not to Make theconcessions call ed-for till the 'securities required weregiven. He thought it bit reasonable , to ask .what securities would begiVen ? On thi - s , subject the 'ILIA Hon. Gentleman 'would not touch for fear of disturbing' the harmony` which he wished to prevail on :the present occasion. Other . • lldrf.:‘ll.l.eiiibers had talked of securities . , but had no sooner mentioned the wend; •thin 'they flew' - Off frciin the subject.' If this then eras the case, they Were but in the sarne situation in which they had long - be Cu. - , gr. Pitt, Lord Gren4ille,and others, had been of 'opinion that securities Might be devised, but they Tlad not stated What those securities naustbc. Under these- circum - stance 3, no imputation oughtto be caSton any man,' for not endeavouring to carry into effect a resolution so va . gue and indefinite asthat . before the Hous , . this, he thought it would be. a:delusion to hold out to the country' a prospect of any good whatever resulting from . 'such. a Motion as. the present, •when they were ignorant of the, nature of the proposition with which it was intended to foroW it up. He was averse, to Motions of this description being ;brotight forw'ard, and regretted the 'encouragenientgiven to them by au 'Tlonontable Gentletnan, - and- by his "flight Eon. Friend the Chancellor' of the txchcquer, who had spoken in favOur of the in'ation before the House, withont professing to know what they were after wards to ,be Called upon to do. He , contended, there were circumstances connected with the sub ject, Whichjustified serious apprehension 'of the consequences 4 conceding the Catholic- clabo, and therefore he .conceived it to be the, duty of Parliament, not hastily to give npithose guards which had heretofore been judged to be e3setestl to the irit,Kcsrity - of the, Constitution. With this impression he Should' vote against the . motion. Sir J.C. Hir . rs.4.Ev argue 4 in favour of grant ing. the Catholics Emancipation, but contended that they had no to expect td` be placed.in a situation different, with respect to the-Pope and foreign influence,' from that in which they must stand.in Catholie'coTitries. He was willin'gr place them in the same situation in which they Would stand in . Sp . :ltt or Portugal, and more than tilt he thought they had no' right to dethand of the English Government. Mr: - Potcson-zy was sorty.to understand from ; the speech of the Noble Lord, that , neither cf his Colleagues was ,so - favoniahle to granting the claims of the Catholics as himself. ' He ctinderrn ed the conduct of Ggvernnent in taking no part in a question of such vast - itportq4lce . . The very best secutityts , the Established Church that cOa:d be -obtatried, wfis 'that which - must result -from . Our Readers will See, by a reference to Our Par liamentary Debates,.that illr. CAN'ESIG'S Motion, respecting the Roman Catholics of_,lreland, was last night carried in the House of Commons by a very large majority. It is not our pro- . vince to find fplt with any determination that the House of Commons may. adopt, but we may, without impropriety, declare, that we see no reason, to depart, froni • those opi • nions which we have alv; - ays expressed up on this subject,' and declare our apprehen sions as to the probable result ofthis measure. We are aware that by snowing our opinion can didly upon this moSt important subject, we shallex- Pose ourselves to all the obloquy that the advocates of the Catholic claims so liberally bestow upon. any' one who has the misfortune to differ from them. There are no persons in the world more intolerant than those declahners _for toleration.,' Upon one of the most, important questions that ever occupied' the attention and agitated the people of this Empire, they arrogate to them- . selves the exclusive right of judging, and attri bute the most unworthy and base motiveS to every man who is dispoF4 even to pause before lie eon-. seats to }flake such a vital alteration in the Constis. tution; and to Sacrifice those prineiples, and aban don those measuies,. by which our ancestors csta: Wished the liberty and augmented the powers of this country. We cannot, however;patiently sit down under the' imputation of entertaining a - hostile or an unkind feeling towards our •Rome.n 'Catho lic fellow-subjects ; we should most gladly see . . theM admitted to the fullest participation of all the benefits of ;the Constitution, provided it coUld be done' with safety' to our .Establishinents in Church and 'State. We should be most happy to see the discontent_ which subsists in the minds of the Catholics of Ireland, whether well or ill founded, removed ' but the present measure not, we • fear, produce that effect. Tl,e , Cathalies themselves, - have told us, in the 'mei:A most solemn manner, that it will mot ; 'they, 'have rejected-, with scorn', the proffered . boon; 'they insist upon ec , ,,cesaienS heat flies/will-make none ; the peremplority deinand h$ °Kite , unre-erred. 'nne-e!ditioisi surrender of all ~sectirities [-which have hitherto been considered as essentlaf C,;4 S' WOC.D,Tof C9 , , , ent-gftrfler and rublisped by AVIT,LIAM tid :E. Na. 112: Strrad, Orden tor Lctias fur the I,:ciitor, Ara. (i)wit placingkathollcs and those who (I.l.sentecl from it lit such a situation, that they would bc rontekA. If -the Government world not make it a Cabinkt mea sure, the nelson on whom the task'of o) . iginating: fl uront-p;idan ('II the subiect ollAt of‘riAt clevoe, u. a, his Rig ht Honoura:fle Friend near him, Gm .tan), and' he was confident that he would be assisted with all the taiebts of the Right Honourable Gentleman who had- brought forward the motion. He rose principally to say, that he for one was not dispok!d to press so 'far for 'securities as ^ some persons were; feeling, as he did, that in the grant, and in the-eon:cessions thanselves, the greatest of allsecurities was con tained. Mr: W. FITZGERALD replied to . the sarcasms ,thrown - out - by Geneemen opposite, on the" cOn da.:t of the Administration, which be contended were calcut9ted to injure rather than to serve the Ile NV:3 in failiur of the,Resolu. , . tiou, aud hcped it 'wthild tend to the happiness - of the-country and the glory of the Sovereign. Lord PAL-MERSTOIsi supported the resolution; but wished to he 'upderstood as not pledging him sey to nneonditional concession. He' could . only consent to' grant.the claims of the Catholics — ac companied by carresponding and adequate se . curties. C:'III.IRIIELL, in consequence of the rer Lion • he had - seen of the late - aggregate meeting, opposed theinOtion. Mr. WHITBREAD expressed hi r 4 surprize at .the conduct of the Him. liaronet, in. suffering- his con duct in Parliament to be influenceby the 'resolu tions ,of an angry meeting in' Dublin. Minis ters had been justl'r censured for their:vacillating conduct. • The -fact was, that'since the .4eath of • Mr. Perceval, they had given up every one of his measures. He noticed the differentt - opinions expressed' by the- Members of -the Cabinet, and .thought they must pass a very 'uneasy summer. He rejoiced at the prospect of the motion 'being carried, aria eulogised the condt.n.t of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Grattan), to whom. the honour and the harvest, of applause was due. Mr. W. 'Si/ITif Offered a'few observations in favour of the Catholic' claims. Mr CkNNING bestowed - a high tribute of.praise on the character and exertions of the Right Hon. Gentleman v'ho had so often raised his' voice in the cause (Mr. Grattan); and expressed himself happy to resign the task of carrying the , wilhes of thc House, into .11;3 hands ; 'hut at the - same without derogatin ,, f;om any thin:.,; he had Aidonthe conduct and talent:4 of that Right Mott. Gentle man, he should be still more happy . to see it in_ the harrls of 'Government. The then divided on iifr. Cannirig's Mo tion, dal. A mendmenis baying ben v;ithcl.n.Lwn, For the nAtAthin 235 Againia it , " lO6 • Majerity . Adjourned at three o'cicieli this gwrning: visiosA.,t.rarc. (Z . 17 S'I'PCKS • , Tnis o‘y Ai• I ::"ELVE Consols 57 :58 571 I Ittd. 1111. t,ti ; 4 ter Cet2,t, 72:,1 Fr: 11 -7:41 ki • SOLE - M (1 (if S DICVVE YALSVM ALIDE.:kT L . O.N D O N, • TUESDAY,.4UN,E .23, 1812. to the safety of theeen3titatinn. What the=nn:ust Abe the consequerice of the proposed concession, " - Lhat the Catholics will be conciliated and sati , - fied No; they love told us unanimonsly at their Aggreg:. to Meeting that they will,not. The sacrifice be made to no purpose; the surrender of the scen::tiesof Our Establishments in Church and , State _will he -made without an equivalent, the Catholics •will - not be satisfied, and . . the Pro. testants 'will probab!v . be. 4iseontented. Such • al`e the consequences 'tvhich it, appears to us, are to re:iult from the prortsed sure_ in the present state of the lloman Catho- ' tic mind> WC itre called tiPon to con^itiate, and we are rrtet with expressions of hostility an,-1 menace l and those who that . t - Lcir Ii ect is .to proinote univers.l c;nco:Ll, ~. eer.n to that the most likely. nay ..,to; uffain, t is to use the rnOst arinitinfous - and' ine jest , W. '.-iy terupeyate langnage. c. mos saicei ; - rejoice to find that our ort' . this Lead were unfOunded, to otis<i ear. -nl-I titration in the tone mid tenmer of ene .. itomaii 4 Critholies:of Ireland, and to see the comi'iliatory 4 4 views of the 'House -of' Commons in::t -by if corresponding disposition on their part. are as fully' aware as any persons can, be, 4a.. the necessity of internal Union at this aWful crisisi we would make great sacrificcs• to attain so desirable an object, and,. we nio: , ,t sincerely pray that, those Which it appears are now about to make, may be ss successful. . I There is• reason to' fear that the extraordlnarf Phenomenon, which lately occurred at Virhadoes, was the effect,of some dreadful_convuision of na ture in simpe of the adjacent,West India islands • , from the following letter, we should apprehend that St, Vincent's is the devote& spot. A report was, yesterday •circulated.in the City (but we trust without - any, foUndation), that Martinique and, Guadaloupe have been entirely destroyed. NEVis, MAY 9.--On the night .of the Ist hist: we were all alarmed by tremendouS reports, as if large cannon were fired off,' There was also .a very heavy surf on the shore, but no wind. Boats nil? mediately went out, thinking it came froinshipg in distress, but returned without- digeovering. ally \thing.. Tw6 or th - ree days after,. a :rep3rt wa s brougb4 here,' that half the island of St.. Vincent was destroyed by a volcano. "It'wc.) clays after which, a Gentleman arrived front 'Martinique , bringing an a ccount th;.‘,t two ves - .q.s 'had put iu there, covered with tilt ashes - .which-fell .6n theo in,passing StNincent,.at the distanceof 15 miles sulphureous smell from the island was so strciii, ; :i;, as to prevent them putttni.g, lit, a.iu they were obliged:, to. make Martinifve. .The , above Gentleman, onlpassing the.island;,;mo..days. pre viols-to the eruption, - clearly saw the: smoke issu ing • froin the soot where the -former crater Vs•'lS, and learnt that the inhabitants had removed.—Tilt yelloW fever all - the islands, particularit at 'St. IC,itt'S.i...nd .Antigua. - The, ;.:eo-Jte have su:- feredconsiderably.. Three shoeiis o e-Irtliqualtes . have been felt here. SECOND . 0 • t 0111 S UN-OFFICE, TWO O'CLOCX• We stop the press, with great pleasure, to ill" form, our readers, that', intelligence has arrived of the capture of the Toulon Fleet , (consisting, °j four ships of the line), by Sir CHARLES CCTI . °‘ The squadron was taken while it was manceu - irins' and the French .Admiral was made prisoner Ou board of one of • the shii)s..' This iLop(W , taut '`nests, we .understand,- was brought t°. Bristol by a vesssl which received it from t he 'Endyrnion frigate, at the mouth of the Channel' It is needless to add, that , the'ibyful tidings we re received at Bristol with the most animate&i- of national exaltation. This intelligence came in a letter from Bristol; bat since writing the above. we have made 0 1 ' - enquiries', which prove great inaccuracies in the ii i account, though we hope that the substance- 1-1 be. confii:rned.: A Lieutenant of the Cracker 15 sai:'. to have given ti:e 11`.CAN'S to the - Endrrnion , 1)4 • J Or the Crab it- e r is in dock at Slice - Mess. and the Nor ° ere dpait , n in 'ordinary at Plymouth. il i. there,yve: believe, such , ships as the tille de 1 " - . tan and T l ies.:3 , ?ts; inentioned among the captu rej , . i 9 Tiauron at 10140 n. . 'lhere is a gross- mistak e .3 to Sii CHARLES ' Cpirro7. , ;,"\vlin died three 111 0 "`'' 6 1- ago, and had llot been in the 1110:iiterrainex l .. y t,volrs. Nothing has al rived, at the Ad , x lr3.t .. . pnorif .on e.subjeq, but a letter containing the r -L- - ..., . • Yolll Lloyd's Coffee-House. : . • , Th n e I,?arm(:.a itEGEN - kola a Privy uo ll-c ' Otis day, - . at Carlton 'House.' gcs On Monday tat liis Highness the Pat ). es EGENT, and:their Royal laghnesses tie k of YoRK, and CumßE-RL6.ND 7 ar.ccrnparti ,,. d nerai..TußN - L - ft, vl ,, itv , ( l . the 'loyal Aead2nly ; rennin - led:above two _hours, exa' with g, :attention, the.prineipalperforniances of the hibition ; and :the.PatNc REGENT, as . we, 1 , 1 his Royal.prothers, cxpr,essed very hi 2,11 tion at / the variaty and strength of to-en t ` c lic ? • i&yed this season hi the productions - of the , ferent Artists, ' • BR EA n . There being .nb Conrt of Alderrn er to', returnl; da the Lord- - .N.Layor; alto .i,spet trig the ordered the mice to be advanced 3;.!. per P`' tzar,;' }qt.- 11-ot.rect,. Grt , r , `l)) uust be utilressed: