The Sun. — London, England, 1837-12-07 00:00:00

ter and cheering.) He had repeatedly called upon the people at Ireland to agitate, agitate, agitate—combine, combine, corm; • Hear, and cheers.) Why, the Learned Member la hisob • servat:ons, had only shown his total disacquaintance with -ll . the proceedings of Parliament, with that profession o f Rich he wa s a M em ber, and his total disacquaintance with the fact, that p et i t i ons to t h a t House should not be crammed full O ar guments and reasons, but should be a plain sta t e ment of t facts The:Honourable and Learned gentleman had s aid, t hat if there were no reasons, there ought to be no petitions , L 0 7t that sort o f l og i c wou ld no t go down with the House Commons. It was expected that a petition should state facts, and make allegations which were to be enquir e d i nto at a pro p er ti m e. He was obliged a fforded Hon. and Learned Member for the opportunity he had hi m o f re plyi ng to his attack ; but he ( Sir F. Bur - Jett) would stand the brunt of what he had done in a legal or I nY other wa y.—( Ch e ers.) Throughout his life he had ._ on just, honest, constitutional, and legal grounds. The inn. and Learned Member had talked about his being into :sled in the petition, but he would ask whether those Gentle .'" whose returns were petitioned against should be now callin g on the House to make fresh election laws and fresh modesof trial ?—( Hear, hear, and cheers)—the object of Loch was neither more nor less than unconstitutional and mi sc hi evous procrast i nat i on an d d e l a y. It appeared to ulin that the Hon. Members so circumstanced were in a very e quivocal position. They called them Members of Parlia ment, b u t t h e i r r i g ht t o s it i n that House was questioned. He th ought,. the House ought not to break up fur the hol ida y s their claims had been set at rest.—( Laughter from the lini s t er i a l s i de o f t h e H ouse. ) B e f ore a ny other business was pro cee d e d w ith, th e r ight of all persons petitioned agains t ' 0 sit in that House should in his opinion be ascertained, and ie nding that investigation they ought not to be allowed to ,;,), vote upon any question brought before the House. — ( Hear. ) Nothing had been stated in the petition which was not entirely a eceptable to him, and he should not, therefore, oppose the Printing of the petition. Mr. 13'C ONNE LL rose, and was met by loud cries of Spoke, spoke," from the Tories ; answered by cheers, and ell " of " Order" from the Ministerial benches. He said—l rise to explain— ( Renewed cries of " Spoke")—l have a right to !'plain, or to move the adjournment of the queseion.—( Laugh ter from the Tories, Hear, hear," from the Ministerial Merri l) s) I will explain ; if lam interrupted I will move the Ve , urnmeet of the debate.—( Hear, hear.) I attacked no „ ; I even went out of my way to give credit to — (Re - Vowed cries of " Spoke, spoke," from the Tories, and great l eterruption, in the midst of which the Speaker's voice W as heard exclaiming " Mr. O'Connell" to explain.) " 1 used no h ars h wor d," proceeded Mr. O'Connell. " I did not n escribe what I considered crime by its proper name. The Baronet has mis-stated me. The Hon. Baronet has also ' 4l s -stated me, in saying that I used no arg ument —that I d , not show how a person—( Cries of " Spoke, spoke," with „ l oud cries o f " Order !" from the Ministerial Benches. Mr. 9 'Con ne ll sat down, and the Speaker was understood to have ri sen.) Mr. HUM E rose, and was received by loud cries of , 4 • Chair !" from the Tories. " Whv, Chair," said the Hon. 'lernber.—( Loud laughter flora the Tories, cries of " Order 1" a nd great confusion.) .Sir R. INGLIS rose, and was understood to say that the S peaker • had risen. (The noise and confusion was here re doubled. ) Mr. HUME said—l have not yet spoken—what right has at lY Hon. Member to cry " Chair ?"—(Continued cries o f , Order !" and " Chair 1") Sir EDWARD K N ATcHBULL—Sir, I never yet kne w t he Speaker interrupted when he had risen to express his opi nion,_( Loud cries of " Hear, hear !" from the Tories.) The SPEAKER—It is true that I rose.—( Cheers from the Tories.) I must request lion. Gentlemen to be silent. ( Hear, hear.) I rose for the purpose of stating that I `nought when the Hon. Member for Dublin was about to re- Fate his arguments, that he was doing that which was Lneorisistent with explanation.—( Hear, and cheering.) The E don. Member for Kilkenny then rose, and was about, as I thought, to show that the Hon. Member for Dublin was in order ; if he slid not rise for that purpose he had no right to interrupt the Hon. Member for Dublin. Mr. HUME said that he had not risen with that view— (Laughter from the Tories)—but because his Hon. Friend (Mr. 'O'Connell) had desisted from attempting to make him self audible.—( Hear, he r.) He was quite surprised that the Hon. Baronet, the Member for North Wilts, should have at tempted to turn the attention of the House from the subject Which was now before it, by talking of rent, and other 'natters, with which it had nothing to do.—( Loud cheers. ) The Hon. Baronet spoke of justice. Was it justice to intro nee questions which were not before the House for the pur pose of prejudicing the question which was the immediate sub- Ject of discussion ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Honourable Baronet had said that ho was desirous of seeing justice done to all parties. But was it justice to permit an individual to he judge in his own case ?—( Hear, hear.) That was exactly what the petition complained of. It stated that a number of Persons, and amongst them the Hon. Baronet, had entered into s uLscriptions to interfere with the privileges of the House.— Laughter and " Oh," from the Tories, responded to by Cheers Aron) the Rerormers.) Notice had been given that a Committee Would be moved for to inquire into the propriety of excluding those p e r s ons, who put themselves in that situat ion, from sit ting upon Election Committees.—( Hear, bear) Now the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Wilts, had placed himself in that situation ; and it was necessary for justice, that the House should know who the Members were who had so disqualifisd themselves.—(T or yl aug hter. ) It was for that purpose his Hon. Friend was d es i rous t h e H ouse s h ou ld have the petition be fore it. The House was bound to purify itself.—( Shouts of .I,':Qughter from the Tory benches.) The allegation having th :n mad e that the House did require such purification—that sit wereon t , so many Members who ought not to be allowed to ~'Acetion Committees—and a notice halin g been given of a motion for a Committee to Liquire into the truth of that allegation, would the House refuse to possess itself of tile document, and to put it into the hands of Members in time to enable them to judge by to-morrow whether the Com teittee ought to be granted or not ?—( Hear, hear.) When the extent of the evil was ascertained, it would be the duty of the House toevent men who had prejudged ele ction questions fro m sittin pr g on election tribunals. —( Hear and cheers. ) The Hon. Baronet the Member for Wiltshire showed a dis regard of justice, and of all the principles of English law, When he contended for the right of any man to try a case. — (Great cheers from the Reform benches.) The Speaker had decided again and again, that when a motion for a Committee Was to be founded upon a petition, the motion should not be !bade until after the petition had been printed and circu lated amongst the Members. He contended, therefore, that the present petition ought to be printed forthwith. He did not wish to enter into the question whether his Learned Priced the Member for Dublin was an agitator or not, but he felt no doubt that he should be enabled to show, if called 11 P° 11 , that there were other agitators much mo r e un constitutional than his Hon. and Learned Friend.—( Great cheering.) Mr. AGLIONBY would not give his vote upon the pre !lent question without a few observations. He thought would not raise the character o f the House with th e country, when they found that on a mere question of th e practice of the House, so much bitter argument and 111 -fe&ing had been engendered.—(Cheers . ) He should v ote for the printing of the petition, considering it bad no analogy whatever to the cases that had been adverted !° of Berwick and Bridgewater.—( Cheers.) It was most IMportant that all Members of that House should be above sus picion. Would that be the case were they allowed to subscribe to Lands to question elections ? What would the House think of aju 'lYrnan having paid part of the money to support an action which e was to assist in trying—( Cheers)—yet such would be the e ase with Members, if such a state of things were allowed to exist. If the House should refuse to have the petition Printed, the public would think it was their desire to stifle Sir ED WARD SUGDEN begged to call the attention ° t . the House to one of the passages in this petition. The Petitioner states "that it does not become him, it s there is a petition pending a g ainst his return, t 0 make any statement that might have the e ffect prejudging , that petition ; but he firml y believes and is opinion, that the grounds of that petit ion are false, frivolous 414 1 vexatious." Now he put it to the House, whether these s tatements were not mixed up with the merits of the petition? Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Sir, I do not agree with the 4ti g t Hon. Baronet that terms of such general . import as he Taeust read arc likely to prejudge the merits of the petition. t , petitioners of course maintain that the Honourable 'either was not duly elected. He of course , maintains ithat he is duly elected, and that the grounds of the petit I°ll are frivolous and vexatious. A mere assertion like t hat le stated by the Hon. Bart. is quite d ifferent from an ro ged fa c t, such as bribery, intimidation , or coercion . There -4 t• r- I do not think that allegations of thi s sort bring the pe • t i° l l within the view of the cases cited by the Hon. tie Gen man oppo s ite. Sir, the Hon. Member for Newcas tle seemed to t misund er stand an observation which fell from me with res p ect : ti the course that ought to be pursued on th is q uestion ; but t I wanted was, that the House should thoroughly under id t h e manner i n w hi c h i t wa s to proceed. If they wished JOdiscussion on the general question to come o n to-ni g ht, then th i s Petition ought to be received ; but if , on t h e other hand, th e Hon. Gentleman comas forward as an aggrieved party , tee ; is bound to give him every fair opp ortunit y of en it;lng upon the merits of his case, and of ask in g for a Com tee of Inquiry.—( Hear.) In order to sta te his case pro pt p -r 'Y I conceive it to be more or less natural that the e t peti i sho u ld b e p r i n ted. This is the usual course , and in li laarting f rom it, it would appear as if the House did t intend to give the Hon. Gentlema n a f sir hearing. If o e . r efore th e question comes to a vote , I shall certainl y vote 0l its being printed, but I may be allowed to make a few e xi t rvations. I have a motion on the books with respect to "g the day for taking into consideration the election petitions; t iZefore I vote for the printing of the petition, in order th v t the`' might go into the whole case of the subscription toi rL I AU Leen raised against the Irish seats ; and whatever l e "t he the result, he should hold himself at liberty Il e 111 " e for fixed days for the Election Petitions. Ntii i w as exceedingly sorry the Hon. Ba ronet, the Member for te,tshire, h a d m i xe d up the preliminary discu ssion with mat riots cif extreme passion and excitement.—(Cheers.) He did er think that was a course at all li kel y to secure a pro puecision on the que stion. However , whe n the p ro p er c a t , d came he should be prepared to state his o p iiiion of the itlaiuct of th e H o n. Baronet, and of the sta tements he had e .--( Loud cheers.) 111 3 m ". SMITH O'BRIEN said that the shape in nhich il eal motion should be framed would depend a great to uFOn the result of the discussion of to night. One fact t eer ' o '' cli lie meant to bring the attention of the House to eote, night as that of an Hon. Mem ber havin g be. I . I Q II a subs cr ib er to the fund.—( Cries of " Hear , hear:") ttia ad , Principally risen now for the purpose cf offeri n g I)°l °gY to the Hon. Baronet the Member for Wiltshire, THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY, DECEMBER 7, 1837. awful because it had been kept in complete obscurity, had not fallen upon them.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) For his part, he ( Sir R. Peel) had never seen the declaration which so much alarmed the Noble Lord, that it was the intention of certain parties to question the elections of Ireland on the mere ground that the parties returned differed from the ma jority of the English representatives. With respect to the other ground for alarm stated by the Noble Lord, he (Sir R. Peel) had certainly seen statements calculated to excite an alarm that some of these petitions were presented with a view to prevent certain Members from taking part in the deci sion upon election petitions. Of course the Noble Lord re ferred to the correspondence which had recently taken place between two persons, calling themselves " An Elector" and " A Non-elector," in the Morning Chronicle. It was, doubt less, this correspondence which excited the Noble Lord's ap prehensions of the fatal result of " a cluster of petitions," to use the Noble Lord's expression, and the declaration upon which the Noble Lord had built his well-founded alarm, was viewed with the more apprehension, and accepted the more implicitly, because it proceeded from an organ which advo cated the Noble Lord's own politics. As to the other decla ration, he (Sir R. Peel) had never seen it ; and he heartily rejoiced in the hope that the apprehension of it was ill-founded. He regretted, however, that the Noble Lord had suffered himself to be disturbed by vain apprehensions of this kind, alai ta be induced even to hold out a threat that be would suffer himself to depart from the ordinary course of Parliament in respect to its privileges, and to delay to bring on the conside ration of its disputed seats beyond the usual period named for so doing. He hoped the result would operate as a caution to the Noble Lord—(a laugh)—not to give faith to vague com munications in newspapers ; and that, holding the situation which he did, he would not again throw impediments or ob jections in the way of bona fide petitioners to the House of Commons. —( Hear.) There was one subject in connection with this topic to which he wished to advert before be sat down. tie referred to the Bill brought in by the Hon. Member for Liskeard, relating to the trial of controverted elections, and which had now passed its second reading. He hoped that the course this evening pursued by the Noble Lord in reference to these election petitions might be understood as a promise that they would not proceed hastily with that Bill.—(No, no, from the Ministerial Benches, and hear , hear , from the Oppo sition.) Why, if the present mode of trying election petitions was considered so far satisfactory that the election petitions now before the House were to be tried by it, he could see no occasion for bringing on that Bill. He believed that it was understood that no business of importance would be dune after the present week until they re-assembled after the recess. So general, he thought, was this understanding, that the Hon. Member for Bridport positively refused to defer his motion respecting the Danish claims to any day after Friday, so im pressed was he with the notion that immediately after that day there would be a general flood of Members out of town. If this were the case, the Hon. Member for Liskeard could not hope to obtain that attention to his Bill which the subject of it demanded, and, therefore, he ( Sir Robert Peel) hoped that the Honourable Gentleman would consent to defer the future stages of it till after the recess. If, however, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman did not think proper to accede to this suggestion, he ( Sir R. Peel) would give notice that he would on Friday next, without at all entering upon the merits of the Bill, but merely because the House would not after that day be in a state to do it jus:ice, move that it be postponed till an early day after the recess, and take a division upon his proposal.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) The Clerk tl e proceeded to read the list of Election Peti tions, the first of which, that for the county of Roxburgh, was fixed for the 6th of February. Sir R. PE EL tone to call the Noble Lord's attention to the fact, that if they only took four election petitions in a week, it would be sixteen weeks before they were all disposed of. He suggested whether it would not be better on some days to take three petitions. [At this period Mr. C. Buller, who had been out of the House, entered, and took his seat amidst cries for " Mr. Bul ler, Mr. Buller."] Lord J. RUSSELL did not think they should be able to get through more than five petitions a week. Sir R. PEEL, observing the Hon. and Learned Member for Liskeard in his place, repeated the observations he had made during his absence in reference to the Controverted Elections Bill. Mr. C. BEJLLE R. had heard no reason from the Right Hon. Baronet, except the threat of his opposition, which should prevent him from pursuing the course he (Mr. C. Buller) had originally intended in reference to a matter to which much public interest was attached, and on which be might say public ju-tice to some extent depended. —( Hear, hear.) He should be very sorry to prevent the Right Hon. Baronet and his friends from going out of town, but at the same time be must say that he really did not so particularly want their attendance in this matter.—( A laugh.) Sir R. PEEL said that the notion of leaving town had not originated with his Sir R. Peel's) side of the House, but with Gentlemen on the other side. He had stated that so general was this impression amongst Gentlemen on the opposite side that the lion. Member for Bridport had declined to postpone Lis motion on the Danish claims beyond the present week.— (Hear, hear, from the Opposition. ) Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that however desirous Mem bers might be to get out of town as soon as possible, he thought that as a matter of public business it would be of more importance to go on with this Bill before the recess. The object of this Bill was to see whether they could not de vise a better mode of trial for election petitions. He (Lord John Russell) thought they could, and he nave notice that he sbonld move the insertion of a clause , making it im perative on Election Committees to appoint a Commission to take evidence.—( Hear, hear.) After a few words from Mr. GRATTAN and Sir R. PEEL, the Roxburgh and Canterbury petitions having been fixed for the 6th of February, the Longford petiticn having Leen named (as we understood) for the Thursday following, viz. , the Bth of February, Mr. GR ATT AN hoped a more distant day would be fixed. Many of his tenants had been struck off in a most unjustifiable manner.—( Hear, and a laugh from the Opposi tion.) He should, therefore, move as an amendment that this petition be considered on Tuesday the Bth of March.—(Loud laughter.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL asked .the Hon. Member for Meath whether he would press his motion, for he did not see any grounds on which he was entitled to the demand which he made. After a few words from Mr. H. GRATTAN the amend ment was withdrawn, and the criginal motion agreed to. PRIVILEGES OF THE HOUSE. Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to know from the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Blewitt) whether he did not consider it better to reserve the discussion of his resolution until to morrow, when the Hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. W. S. O'Brien) would present a petition bearing on the saute subject ? Mr, BLEWITT—If I am to understand that I shall have precedence to-morrow evening I shall agree to the Noble Lord's proposition. Sir R. PEEL—I think the Hon. Gentleman should stipu late for his taking precedence of all other motions. He is perfectly entitled to do so.---( Loud cries of " Go on, go on.") Mr. BLE WITT then proceeded—Sir, in rising to move the resolutions of which I have given notice, I can assure th e House I feel deeply impressed with the responsibility—( Cries of " Oh, oh I" from the Opposition)—of the duty lam now . . called upon to discharge. Humble, however, as my position in this House may be, I cannot stand tamely by and see its dignity insulted, its authority despised, and its just rights and privi leges set at defiance. Sir, my attention was first called to the grievance in question by the remittance to London from the country town near which I reside of a sum of money for the avowed purpose of expelling from this House the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. Sir, it did appear to me that this was a most foul and atrocious aggression upon the free dom of election and the liberty of the subject, and such as I could not have anticipated even from the utmost virulence of political or party feeling. I had, indeed, heard that a Committee:oad been formed in London , for purposes which I could not but deem unlawful and unconstitutional ; but until the sub:cription to which I have alluded came under my notice, I had no conception of the mischiefs th,tt might result from the formation and objects of the Committee. Sir, if the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin is to be expelled from this House by the combined and collected resources of Conservative opulence, why not the Noble Lord on the Treasury bench, and all his Right Hon. coadjutors ? Why not each and every one of the Hon. Members on this side of the House ? Even you yourself, Sir, arc not safe in that Chair, to which the unanimously-approving voices of the House have elected you. Sir, I beg to call the attention of the House to the form and language of my reso lutions. They are framed upon the principle, that immutable principle of justice in a free country, that no man should be presumed to be guilty, nor condemned without a trial. My first four resolutions are declaratory of what I consider to be the law upon certain points. My last seeks an inquiry into whet have been the circumstances of a particular transaction alleged to have taken place, but of which the House has no judicial knowledge, in order to ascertain whether those circum stances have been such as to bring any and what parties within the scope and operation of the law. It is just possible, Sir, that I may not, on this occasion at least, gain credit with some Hon. Gentlemen for that pure honesty of intention to which I lay claim ; and as I cannot introduce them into the recesses of my heart—( A laugh)—l must be content if I can only ob tain from them a fair and dispassionate hearing. This, Sir, I might demand as a right, but I am quite willing to accept it as an act of the kindest and most considerate courtesy. Sir, to support the first of my resolutions, I shall have to prove that it is a breach of the privileges of this House to im peach, or wilfully and deliberately call in question or other wise than by a petition, the right or title of any Member to a scat in the House. I request attention to the precedents and authorities which I am about to cite, and which I shall do as shortly and succinctly as the nature of the case will admit of. I well know the value of your time. Let the House hear me but with patience while I speak to the pur pose, and I promise that its indulgence shall not be abused. The Hon. Member here entered into a variety of legal and historical details, in order to establish the points he had stated. He then continued :—The House is now threatened externally with a species of molestation at which every true gr dp r lover of his count r y l oo k s w i t h h orror a nd dismay. A self-constituted tribun a l h as h een r i sen u p—an imperium In imperio_ p ra a er n ne d nd telyryient rendering ts l e n s u s pgoaN t tv h oc a rry n , ii) t tu h st e jiunPrtifiesrdriciiceatlllpioteinnligt, Wild tac knowledging e apparently controlling a a nt judges of the land, the Lords spiritual and temporal, Kings and Queens, all the high and mighty of the kingdom, have been told successively, in the plainest and most indig nant terms, that they shall not interfere in any matters affect ing the House of Commons. I shall be glad to hear by what ingenuity of argument any Hon Member will attempt to convince the House that a self.elected Committee of pri vate individuals are entitled to do that which is forbidden to for not having given him the notice before. Having given the public notice, he had thought that sufficient to raise the whole question, and he had felt there was the less necessity for mentioning this to the Hon. Bart. as he had understood from the public papers, that the Hon. Bart. was determined, on the first opportunity that presented itself, to avow himself one of what was called " the Spottiswoode Gang."—( Loud cheers and laughter.) Mr. MORGAN O'CONNELL should certainly vote with the Honourable Gentleman the Member for Limerick. The Honourable Baronet the Member for Wiltshire had attacked the Honourable Member fur Dublin, because he had told the people to agitate. Now he (Mr. Morgan O'Connell) should like to know what the Honourable Member for North Wiltshire had spent the whole of his life in doing ?—( Laughter.) He should like to know who it was that agitated this great me tropolis to its very centre, and who it was that disturbed the peace and tranquillity of a great number of persons in this city. The Hon. Baronet should be the last person to attack any gentleman for pursuing a course that he himself had pursued for so many years. He had repented, it was true, of his for mor errors.—( Cheers from the Tories, and laughter from the Ministerial benches.) The Hon. Baronet had on every possible occasion, whenever he could present himself to the public, held up to the execration of the people those whom it was now supposed he considered his dearest friends.—( Cheering and laughter.) The Hon. Baronet indeed might have attacked Hon. Member for Dublin, or any Gentleman who had passed the the whole of his youth in advocating liberal principles,tand in his old age had gone over to the Tories—(Laughter)—but lie thought an attack of the sort they had heard came with an exceeding ill grace from the Hon. Baronet. The Hon. Baronet had attacked the Hon. Member for Dublin here and elsewhere. He might attack the Hon. Member for Dublin here or else where; but he should like to know when he attacked that Hon. and Learned Member, why he never said a word with respect to any other member for Ireland. There were others for Ireland who were in the same predicament with the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin ; but the Hon. Baronet had beer, for ever silent in reference to them. Major HANDLEY wished to make one observation with respect to what had fallen from the Hon. Baronet opposite. He desired to know whether what the House had witnessed to. night was to be taken as an emblem of the impartiality which the Hon. Baronet always wished to pursue ; or if there was not something else combined with it of dishonour which ought not to prevent him from voting in that House, either on this occasion, or on any other on this side of Christmas.—( Hear. ) [ Sir Francis Burdett immediately bowed across to the Honourable Member who had just sat down, rose, and walked down the centre of the House amidst the most deafening cheering from both sides, and when he had reached the bar he turned round, bowed to the Chair and to the House, and walked out. After the cheering had in some degree subsided, strangers were ordered to withdraw ; the effect produced by this novel scene was so exciting and in teresting as to leave any description greatly defective of that which was felt by all who witnessed it.] The House then divided, when there appeared— For the motion 234 Against it Majority for printing the petition Mr. CHARLES BULLER presented a petition from Mr. F. Ellis, of Southampton-buildings, praying for leave to change the name of one of the securities in the Bodmin Election Petition. - The Petition having been read at length by the Clerk, After a few words from an Hon. Member and the Attor ney-General, the petition was laid on the table. CHURCH OF SCOTLAND. Lord JOHN RUSSELL brought up the second Report of the Church of Scotland Commission. HIGHWAY RATES BILL. On the motion of Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE this Bill was read a second time, and referred to a Select Committee. On their names being read, Mr. HUME said they ought to have been published in the votes. After some conservation of a desultory nature, in which Lord JOHN RUSSELL, Sir R. PEEL, and others took part, Mr. HUME gave notice that he would bring the subject of Committees on Private .Bills before the House on an early day. The Committee on the Highways' Bill was then appointed. CHURCH PROPERTY (IRELAND). _ . _ Mr. MAH ON Y moved the readingof the Order of the Day ibr the adjourned debate on the Bill for the better regulation of Church property in Ireland, which was read, and (as we un derstood) leave was given to bring in the Bill, without dis cussion. CUSTODY OF INSANE PERSONS BILL. On the motion for the Order of the Day on this Bid, Mr. W A RBURTON rose to present petitions respect lag it. The Hon. MEMBER then said that he had an amendment to propose for the insertion of a clause in the Bill, to secure the employment of competent medical men for the purposes of the Act. After a few observations from Mr. BARNE B Y, the third reading of the Bill was postponed till to-morrow. APPOINTMENT OF ELECTION PETITIONS. Lord J. RUSSELL rose, in pursuance of the notice he had given, to name the days after Christmas when it would be con venient to consider the various Election Petitions before the House. He would not say at once that, as it was expected that the House would adjourn from the day immediately pre ceding the Christmas holidays until the Ist of February, he should propose that the first petition on the list should be taken into consideration on the Tuesday following the 6th of February.—( Hear, hear.) He did not wish to provoke a de bate on a subject, which might be better considered to-morrow night; but he must say that circumstances had occurred before, during, and after the late Elections, which had caused him ( Lord John Russell) to doubt whether or not it might not become necessary to adopt an extraordinary course in reference to these Petitions. Threats had been held out in some instances that per sons whose return was certain would be opposed, and that in case this opposition failed, the returns would be petitioned against. In other cases contests were pro voked where there was no chance of a new candidate sue ceedin,g.—( Hear, hear, from both sides of the House.) Im mediately after the elections, particular reference was made to those of Ireland, and it was openly declared that it was necessary to raise a subscription to set aside the returns from that country ; and it was stated that this was required, not on the ground that the Members returned did not represent the people of Ireland, but, specially, because they did not agree with the majority of the representatives of England. These circumstances, combined with others of a similar kind, had induced him (Lord J. Russell) to suppose that there had been an intention on the part of some individuals, by sending in a vast number of vexatious petitions:against the returns of Members of that House, to prevent them from taking a part in the proceedings on election petitions, and so to prevent the full operation of that law upon the subject known under the name of the Grenville Act. He was ready to state now, how ever, that his suspicions as to these circumstances were re moved, and he would also acknowledge that no circum stances but those of a very extraordinary nature should in duce the House to adopt an unusual course in respect to petitions relating to the seats of Members, or to defer their consideration beyond the time which a due regard for the dignity of the House and the character and claims of the petitioners required. Now with regard to the number of the Election Petitions already before the House, they did Rot seem to exceed in so great a number the amount of former occasions as to warrant the belief that any sinister or peculiar motives had called them forth. In 1831 there were 57 election petitions; after the dissolution in 1832 there were 49; in 1835 there were 42; and in the present year, up to the time he was speaking, there were 67 petition's, which was only ten more than the number of petitions in 1831. As far, therefore, as any deductions from numbers could guide him, considering the great number of contests which had taken place in the late election, considering also the narrow majorities which sometimes occurred in the last Parliament, and the very natural desire which existed on the part of the minority to crop that majority, he did not think that the num ber of Election Petitions in the present year was such as to warrant any extraordinary measures in regard to them. With respect to the nature of the petitions themselves, he could only say that, up to the present period, he did not perceive that there was any great cluster of petitions or any one particular kind, which would make it clear that there had been any combination in order to present them, when no reasonable grounds existed for their complaints ; and that they had been presented merely for the purpose of influencing the ' results of divisions of that House, or for changing the tribu nals or altering the names of those who should be called on to decide upon petitions of this kind. Under these circum stances, he should merely move, " That the petition on the election for the county of Roxburgh be taken into considera tion on Tuesday, the 6th Febi nary."—( Hear. ) Sir R. PEEL rejoiced at the course which the Noble Lord had taken, and which entirely precluded the necessity for his ( Sir R. Peel) making the motion of which he had given notice, in the event that the Noble Lord's motion had not been made. the course now adopted by the Noble Lord, it was declared to the country that the House would proceed, immediately after the recess, to try the election petitions, before the known constitutional authority of Parliament, and therefore all par ties concerned in them would hold themselves in readiness to give their attendance, and do all that might be required of them in respect of them at that time. The 6th of February was the day named for the first petition, and the rest on the list must shortly follow in their order, at which time the par ties to them must be aware that they would be required to have their witnesses in attendance to submit their cases before the known tribunal appointed to decide upon them.— ( Hear, hear.) He knew enough of the Noble Lord to feel assured that he would not depart, on the present occasion, from the accustomed course of Parliament in these matters. The number of election petitions in 1831 was 57, and in the present year they were 67 in number ; and the Noble Lord had very justly stated that in the relative numeri cal proportion of these petitions there was no ground to impeach the bona fide origin and intention of the latter. With respect to the parties from whom these petions ema nated, h e beli ev ed that of the 67 hitherto presented, 27 or 28 came from parties on his (Sir R. Peel's) side of the House, and 36 from parties interested in the opposite side of the question--( Hear, hear, and laughter from the Opposition)-- which, with the fortunate intervention of three from neutral parties, completed the number. The Noble Lord had stated that there was no appearance upon the face of the petitions themselves of their having been concerted by any combination cf parties for sinister purposes. He ( Sir R. Peel) had looked into the petitions emanating from parties on his side of the House, and as far as they were concerned could fully bear testimony to the truth of the Noble Lord's observations ; but if the Noble Lord were to look into those of his side, he ( Sir R. Peel) thought he might possibly find, some grounds to shake his confidence in this matter.—( Opposition cheers.) lie heartily rejoiced, therefore, that the contingency which had been impending over their heads, and which was the more the Lords, the Judges, and the King's Majesty. Sir, such naturally is the wicked propensity of mankind to meddle in the affairs of others, and to promote quarrels and disputes amongst their neighbours, on the Lucretian principle, I pre sume- " Suave maria magno turbantibus mquora ventis E terra magnum aiterius spectare laborem"— such, I say, Sir, was this propensity, that it was found neces sary, at a very early period of civilised society, to make it an offence, and provide some remedy against it ; and accordingly I find in the Roman law an express enactment forbidding the practice, denouncing the offenders as the pests of society, and subjecting them to the condemnation of fine, imprisonment, and perpetual infamy. After some farther historical illustra tion, which we regret that we have not space to insert, the Hon. Member proceeded :—Then, Sir, if I have satisfactorily established the principle, who can doubt that an infringement of it is a breach of the privileges of the House ? It is and must be a contempt, and consequently a breach of privilege, for any person to do that which the House says he shall not do. Sir, a petition against the return of a Member to Parliament is altogether in the nature of a civil proceeding, though some Hon. Members perhaps may consider it a very uncivil one. The petition does not seek to prosecute criminally an alleged offender, but is in the nature of an appeal for the trial of civil rights. I have before shown that to assist in getting up such a petition, or to support it with money, is forbidden by the law, and by the practice of this House, and that such assist ance and support have been pronounced by judicial authority as an act of maintenance at common law, and a crime. If then, Sir, maintenance be of itself an offence of so highly cri minal a nature, how greatly must that crime be increased when it is superadded to and incorporated with another of equal if not of greater magnitude 1 I mean, of course, con spiracy—which then becomes conspiracy—to do an act of maintenance. Such then, Sir, are maintenance and con- spiracy in statute and common law. I will now show how connect them with a breach of Parliamentary privilege. It appears to me, upon a full consideration of all the cases that have occurred in Parliament on the subject of privilege from the commencement of its records to the present day, that whenever any crime or offence, either at common law or by Act of Parliament, has occurred to affect the proceedings of Parliament or electior.s, or any other matters concerning Parliament, the same crime or offence has been adopted and naturalized and engrafted, as it were, and acted upon as part of the lex Parliantenti. This, Sir, appears to me the only rational basis of our judicial privileges. What I claim, therefore, for this House as an undeniable privilege, founded upon the law and consistent with the law, is, not the right of ourselves to make new laws, but the sole right of applying the laws as they exist to all matters affecting elections or any of our proceedings—the sole right of ad judging whether in such cases the laws have been broken, and the sole right of punishing those whom we may have found guilty of a breach of the laws which we are so entitled to administer. The Honourable Member then cited several cases in support of his views of the privileges of the House. He then continued :—Sir, I think I have now said enough in support my first four resolutions. They will be found to embrace the following list of crimes and misde meanours :—1 st. libel ; 2d. maintenance ; 3d. conspiracy ; 4th. contempt of Court ; sth. breach of Parliamentary pri vilege ; the last uniting them all in a sort of Gordian knot, which this House will not allow to be cut, and which it may, I think, baffle the ingenuity of Hon. Members to untie. I now come to my fifth resolution. Sir, the reference I ask for to the Committee of Privileges is founded upon the passages lam about to read from the Standard newspaper. [The Honourable Member then read the resolutions adopted by the meeting at the London Coffee-house, Ludgate hill, on the 30th of August last.] He continued : I shall not imitate the example of those who have taken upon themselves to prejudge the cause of poor persecuted Ireland, whose singular ill-fortune it is ever to be thought in the wrong. Upon the proceedings detailed in these papers I shall make no comment. There is no proof before the House, and, therefore, I will not assert that any meeting took place—that :any Committee was formed—that any reso lutions were passed—that any subscriptions have been made. In order to avoid the possibility of injustice, I should be even willing to become an adherent to Bishop Berkeley's philoso phy, and to believe, if I could, that no such papers as I hold in my hand were ever printed, and that no such person as Mr. Andrew Spottiswoode ever existed. Sir, I shall now make a few observations on the principles attempted to be established by my first four resolutions. Whatever may have been heretofore thought by Honourable Members on the other side of the House, they will now see that in these at least no party question is involved. We are all equally interested in the maintenance of those rights and privileges which we hold in trust for ourselves, for our successors, and for the people. There is no man, however humble, who may not make it an object of his ambition to obtain a seat in this House. Our privileges, therefore, are privi leges of the whole nation, and in them every Member of the community, has a direct and immediate interest. Sir, the subject to which I have been calling the attention of the House affords a fruitful field for declamation, and had I been ac tuated by no other feeling thin that of making an ostentatious display of rounded periods and studied sentences, my speech might perhaps have been more agreeable to your cars, though not so satisfactory to my own judgment. I have throughout addressed myself to the reason cf Hon. Members, and not to their passions. If I have failed to convince the House of my honest opinions, I shall of course readily submit to their deci sion. I do, however, beseech the House to ponder deeply and anxiously upon the results that may ensue from it. Our rul ing princess, though as yet but in the springtime and blossom as it were, of her maiden intellect, is wise, virtuous, and be neficent. I believe, Sir, that to her we might surrender all our dearest rights without a fear that our confidence would be abused. But let us recollect that life is uncertain—that there is a power more mighty than kings and queens, to whose in scrutable decrees the high and the low, the bad and the good, must succumb. The time will arrive (long, long be it averted I)—but the time will arrive, and we know not how soon (fur in the midst of life we are in death 1) when that virgin Queen, who is now the object of our fondest hopes, shall be torn from us, and laid to repose in the sepulchre of her illustrious predecessor. What may then happen, Sir, lies unseen and unknown in the womb of futurity ; but should another despot ever arise in this country, and presume to treat as a bauble yonder mace—the emblem of your autho rity, and of the House's power—to what should we fly for succour if not to those privileges which have been handed down to us as an inheritance from our forefathers, and which it is now my object to have transmitted to our children's children, unimpaired ether by royal influence or by aris tocratical encroachment, as the best, the only safeguard for the rights and liberties of the people. I conclude, Sir, by moving that the five resolutions which stand on the notice book be adopted by the House. Mr. HUME having seconded the motion, the first resolu tion was put from the chair. Mr. WA RBURTON expressed a hope that the Hon. Member would confine himself to the last resolution which he had read, and merely move for a Committee to inquire gene rally into the transaction. There might be much difference of opinion among Hon. Members as to the details and bear ings of the question, but he thought there could be 'none as to the necessity of the House being acquainted with all the facts of the case. Suppose, for instance, it should appear that among the subscribers to the fund alluded to there were some foreign potentates.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Hon. Members might exclaim, but the thing was by no means impossible that among the sub scribers to this fund there were certain would-be despots, to whom it should be of the utmost consequence of what mate rials that House should be composed.—( Cheers.) He did not say the case was so, but it was not impossible, and therefore it was he conceived it became necessary for them, on being ap prised that a large collection was being made to turn Members Out of the House by persons other than electors, to institute a rigid inquiry into the allegation.---( Hear, hear.) It was pea fectly notorious out of doors that there were subscriptions to a large amount raised with a view of trying to influence the de termination of the Election Committees. He had seen a list of the subscriptions to this fund, and he thought it would be well to ascertain whether the names there represented were real or not. An Oxford newspaper bad been sent to him contain ing one of those lists, on examining which he found no less than 700 names of bachelors and under-graduates subscribing ten shillings each, besides various anonymous contributions of 251. and 20/. each. Now, all this ought to be a matter of inquiry. For his own part, though he might not be willing at once to agree to these resolutions of the Hon. Gentleman, the first of which called on the House to designate as a breach of its privileges the institution of this fund, if he only moved for a Committee he should readily have his vote.— ( Hear, and cries of " Withdraw.") Mr. BLE WITT, seeing that the wish of the House was that be should not press the first four resolutions, and merely move for the Committee, at once submitcd to its desire. The question was then put and agreed to that the first reso lutions should be withdrawn. Mr. FRENCH submitted to the Honourable Member whether he might not as well wait for the motion of the Hon. Member for the county of Limerick which stood for to-mor row, and which was precisely for the Committee the Hon. Member sought, and thus let the matter come in more ma tured shape before the House.—( Hear.) Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN said that if he were allowed to re serve that portion of his motion which stood for to-morrow, and which referred more immediately to the conduct of the Hon. Baronet the Member for North Wiltshire, he had no objection to the Committee being appointed at once. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was strongly of opinion that the best course would be to postpone moving for the Committee until to-morrow, when the petition of the Hon. Member for Limerick being printed, the whole sub ject, whether as regarded its laws or facts, might be brought under consideration, and it might be directed whether the case should be referred to a Committee of Privileges or to a Select Committee. His own opinion was, that neither Com mittee would be found expedient.—( Cheers.) He was not at all of opinion that the institution of the fund in question was of the grave, alarming, and dangerous tendency which was at tributed to it. As to a Committee of Privileges, he hoped never to see another. It was, in point of fact, a Committee of the whole House, at which all manner of confusion prevailed. Mr. BLEW ITT said, that on the understanding that the matter was not to drop entirely, and that it should be brought on by some more experienced person, he was willing to let it stand over for the present.—( Loud cries of '‘ Hear, hear 1" from the Ministerial benches.) Sir E. KNATC BULL thought that the motion should be either at once negatived or waved altogether.—( Loud cheers from the Opposition benches.) Mr. HUME begged to remind the Right Hon. Baronet, that in point of fact there was at present no question before the House, and all the Hon. Member had to do was to leave the matter as it stood.—( Cheers and laughter.) Mr. WYNN denied that the first resolution had been with drawn, and appealed to the Chair as to the fact. The SPEAKER said that the case was strictly as repre sented by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny. There was at present no question before the House.—( Cheers and laughter. ) The Hon. Member (Mr. Blewitt) had obtained permission to withdraw his first resolution, and since then had moved no thing.—( Hear, hear.) After a few words from Mr. Borthvvick, Mr. Goulburn, and Colonel Sibthorp, The SPEAKER observed that there was no question be fore the House. (Great noise; during which several Hon. Members endea voured to address the Chair, but were compelled to relinquish the attempt.) Colonel SIBT HORP remarked that the Speaker had cer tainly a more difficult duty to perform in keeping a reformed House of Commons in order, than had been the case with the Speaker of an unreformed House. He would take the sense of the House on the other resolutions. The uproar in the House continued, amidst cries of " Ques tion, question !" " Order, order 1" i° The other Orders of the Day," &c. &c. The SPEAKER again stated that there was no question be fore the House. • Several Hon. Members spoke shortly, but the clamour ren dered it impossible to hear what they said. Sir E. SUGDEN stated that the Speaker bad suddenly passed from the Ist to the 4th resolution, a proceeding which, with the greatest possible respect, appeared to him (Sir E. Sugden) to be somewhat irregular. The SOLICITOR.GENERAL said that as there was no question bA,re the House, he would move for leave to bring in a Bill to—( Chair, chair ! question, question I hear 1) The SPEAKER observed that the Chair was in a very painful situation when that which had been stated from it was questioned, as his statement had been. It was highly de sirable, and he said it not for his own sake, but for the sake of those who might succeed him in his of&e, that matters of this kind should be properly decided. He hoped the House would believe that he was utterly incapable of giving a deci sion on any point, which decision he did not feel satisfied was the correct one.—( Loud cries of " Hear" from all parts of the House.) Mr. G ObLB URN declared that nothing could be further rrom his intention than to impute to the Speaker the slightest Impropriety of conduct. After a few words from Colonel Sibthorp, Sir E. Sugden, _ _ . - the Speaker, and Sir E. Knatchbull, Lord JOHN RUSSELL stated his impression of what had been the facts. The Hon. Member for Monmouth's first resolution having been moved and seconded, the Hon. Mem ber for Bridport suggested to the Hon. Mover to withdraw all the resolutions but the fourth, and to move to refer that reso- lution to the consideration of a Select Committee. On this, the Hon. Member proposed to withdraw his first resolution, and the motion for withdrawing it was put from the Chair. Of course it was not necessary for him to withdraw his second and third resolutions, those resolutions not having been moved; but he came down to the Chair to make somo necessary alte rations in the fourth resolution. While thus engaged, other Hon. Members who had not heard the motion for withdrawing the first resolution began to speak upon that resolution. His ( Lord John Russell's) recollection of the circumstance per reedy agreed with the statement which had been made by the Chair, and he certainly understood that the first resolution had been withdrawn. The Speaker could not be answerable for the misconception of Hon. Members who happened not to hear what was going on. Sir R. PEEL—I submit that the suggestion of the Hon Member for Kent be adopted. In ma - tiers of this kind the House should be guided by some authority and I think there fore the opinion of the Speaker should be decisive.—( Hear, hear.) Although individual Members may say they are not aware of the question having been put, yet if the Speaker's opinion be that the resolution was withdrawn I bow to the de cision of the Chair. 'The only question now is, what shall we do with the rest of the resolutions ? That must be decided by the father of them.—( A laugh.) If he chooses to throw them on the parish he may do so ; but, considering the great size of these babes, and the time it must have taken to bring them to maturity, it is a pity they should be thus disposed of.—( Con tined laughter.) lam afraid, that consistently with the usages of the House, we cannot compel him to bring them forward ; but really such a ridiculous termination—(The laughter be came here so general that it was impossible to catch the re mainder of the sentence.) What a pity that all these fine words should be thrown away. We have smothered the Hon. Member's first-born, but we must apply to himself to relieve us of the remainder.—( Considerable interruption, and cries of .‘ Order.") The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that he had been called to order for doing that which, in his opinion, the Right Hon. Baronet wa; now doing. —( Interruption. ) Mr. BLE WITT said that the Right Hon. Baronet was such an excellent judge of what ought to be done, he would take his advice, and say no more about the resolutions. —( Laughter.) The resolutions were then withdrawn. COLLECTION AND DISTRIBUTION OF BANK- RUPTS' ESTATES. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved for leave to bring in a Bill to make better provision for the collection and dis tribution of bankrupts' estates. He said the Bill was similar in substance to one he had introduced last Session. He saw his Learned Friend the Member fur Exeter in the House, and he begged of him to defer any objection he had to make to the Bill for the Committee.—Leave given. Colonel SIBTHORP begged to ask the Speaker why th 3 whole of the resolutions brought forward by the Hon. Member for Monmouth had been laid aside without further inquiry ? The SPEAKER made some reply, but in so low a tone as to be quite inaudible in the gallery. MUNICIPAL TAXES AND STAMP DUTY ON FREEMEN. Lord J. RUSSELL asked leave to bring in a Bill to regu late the times of payment of the rates and taxes by electors, and to abolish the stamp duty on the admission of• freemen. His Lordship said the Bill was quite similar to that which he had introduced last year, and he would not, therefore, take up the time of the House by entering into any detail. Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the proposed Bill. He had himself last Session brought in a Bill abolishing the stamp duty on the admission of freemen. The Bill was read a se cond time, after which the Noble Lord brought in one to su persede it. He then stated to the Noble Lord that he felt convinced his Bill would not receive the sanction of the Lc- gislature ; the result had proved his conjecture was correct. He would willingly vote for an additional six months' time being given to electors for the payment of their taxes, but he felt that it would not be received as a boon by the country. The rate-paying clause was the most objectionable clause in the Reform Bill; and if the Noble Lord would bring in a Bill, repealing the clause, he would receive the thanks of the country. The freemen were peculiarly deserving the consi deration of the House. Their position had been greatly al tered by the Reform and Municipal Bills. Previous to the passing of those measures the freemen enjoyed great privileges, of which they were now deprived ; and it was, therefore, but fair to repeal the stamp duty on their admission. He had come down to the House determined to take its opinion on the propriety of dividing the Bill of the N.,ble Lord into two. However he would not persevere ; he weuld give the Noble Lord four months to csrry his Bill, and if he did not succeed, be would, in April, move for leave to bring in a Bill for the abolition of the stamp duty on the admission of freemen. Mr. H. HINDE said he would not give the Noble Lord so long a time, but he would immediately after the holidays bring the question of the freemen forward. Lord J. RUSSELL would not consent to have the ques tion separated.—Leave given. SLAVERY COMPENSATION. Mr. O'CONNELL moved for an account of all sums of motley atsarded as slavery compensation, stating the date of each order, the parties to whom, and the colony to which awarded. And also the number of slaves for whom each pay ment had been made, the expenses of the commission, and the sums claimed on which no award had as yet been made.— Ordered. Lord STANLEY said that as there was now no question before the House, he would take the opportunity of calling its attention to the resolutions which had been brought forward that evening by the Hon. Member for Monmouth. If there were any parties in that House who felt that those resolutions were not only unusual, but in a high degree absurd and ridi culous—( Cries of " Order," " Hear, hear")—yes, he would say, that if there were any parties in that House who were of that opinion, the proceedings which had taken place that night must have entertained them highly. This question, which had been introduced with so much pomp—( Cries of " Question," from the Ministerial benches.) Hon. Gentlemen need not interrupt him ;he was too well aware of the practice of that House not to know that, there being no question before the House, he should hav,e waited until it was moved that the House do adjourn ; but he had thought his present course more convenient. He had a right to make whatever observations he thought fit after the House had adjourned. He would not, however, make the motion; because, on its being made, he in tended to show cause why the House should not adjourn until a different system was adopted with respect to its business. Lord J. RUSSELL then moved that the House do now adjourn. Lord STANLEY—He could now continue his observations without interruption. He need not repeat again that the mo tion was most absurd—a complete farce. A measure which had been so pompously announced, so avowedty made the ground work on which the Government founded their intention of taking the extraordinary step of altering the law with regard to election petitions had turned out a complete farce.—( Hear.) The Hon. Member for Monmouth had come down to the House with a string of well prepared resolutions — Mr. HUME rose to order. The Noble Lord was arraign ing the conduct of a Member of that House—had he given no tice of his intention to do so ? That lion. Member was now absent, and he (Mr. H.) would leave it to the Noble Lord's generosity whether it was fair to attack him in his absence? Lord STAN L E Y—l thank the Hon. Memb.:r for Kil kenny for informing me that the Hon. Member for Monmouth is not present. Finding that he has disappeared under the I cloud which has involved all the proceedings of this evening in so much mystery, I will not proceed with any observations that can relate either personally to him or invidiously to his motion. —( Cheers.) But I wish to call the attention of the House, as the Spottiswoode conspiracy storm seems to have blown over for this evening.—(No, no I from the Ministerial side.) What ! not blown over !—( No, no I from the same quarter)—not blown over even for this evening l—( Cheers from the Opposition.) Surely I have a right to say that the storm is blown over, when an Hon. Gentleman, having given notice of five resolutions, having made a long speech in recom mendation of those resolutions, finding very great doubt and difficulty thrown upon them by a part of the House, finally withdraws the first of the five, and the remaining four, fearing the decision of the House, declines to have the question put upon.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) That is the precise situation in which this most vaunted motion, which was to blow up the Spottiswoode conspiracy, now stands.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) But I want to know what we are to expect from to-morrow. Clearly the Honourable Gentleman who has given way to night has no intention of again inviting 114 to the discussion of those resolutions from which he has shrunk this evening.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) No pos sible Parliamentary ground can be alleged for such a course. The House to-night was full to overflowing. —( Hear, hear.) The only wish on the part of the House was to have the ques tion put. But the Hon. Member could not persuade lihnself to have the question put, because he was well aware of the recep. tion it would meet with from the majority of the House._ (Cheers from the Opposition.) Therefore, that these resolu tions should ever again make their appearance upon the table of the House, I hold to be a presumption insulting to the dig nity of the House.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) If they should again make their appearance, then I must say that the proceedings of this evening can be characterised only as the grossest and most vexatious trifling with the House. —( Cheers from the Opposition.) But I suppose that the great field-day is to be taken upon the motion of the Hon. Member for Lime rick (Mr. W. S. O'Brien). We ask for judgment on the general question—( Cheers from the Opposition)—we claim it, we beg for it, but we cannot even have the question put which is to enable us to express our opinions upon it.—( Cries of " Oh," from the Ministerial side, responded to by great cheering from the Opposition.) Now, it is proposed, as I understand, to sink the general question in the individual question. The petition of the Honourable Member for Li merick is to be brought forward to-morrow night, when the great constitutional question is to be decided upon, whether any individual is entitled by the law of the land to subscribe his money to carry into effect the legal rights of any man, or say body of men—( Hear, hear)—whether any individual has the right to support by his money the expenses necessary to procure justice by securing a true election, free from fraud, for Members of this House.—(Cheers from the Opposition. ) We desire to discuss that point on the general quesfon, but we are told that we must discuss it upon the single question. The Hon. Member for Kilkenny charged me just now with a want of courtesy in not having given notice to the Hon. Member for Monmouth of my intention to alinde to the man ner in which he had brought forward his resolutions. But how could I or any human being imagine by anticipation the events of this evening ?—( Hear, hear.) Could any man conceive that a question so solemnly brought forward would be so ludicrously disposed of 7—( Cheers from the Opposition. But I submit, whether the Hon. Member for Limerick—l do not know whether he is present or not—( He is)—l submit. then, whether he is not chargeable with a want of courtesy to the House in not giving, before the question of adjournment was put to-night, a distinct notice of the proposition which he thinks of sufficient importance to bring forward in a sub stantive form to-morrow ?—( Hear, hear.) As the Hon. Gentleman is in his piece, I hope I shall obtain from him ti.e object I have in view—a distinct statement of the nature of the proposition which in the course of some eighteen hours hence we are to be called upon to discuss.—( Cheers.) Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN had taken an opportunity, more than once in the course of the evening, of stating that until the mo tion of the lion. Member for Monmouth was disposed of, he could not exactly say in what terms his ( Mr. O'Brien's) mo tion would be framed ; but, from first to last, he had given a distinct intimation that it was his intention to direct the no tice of the House to the conduct of the lion. Baronet (Sir Francis Burdett) the Member for North Wilts.—( Cheers. ) That intimation was given in terms as clear and explicit as he had the power of employing ; and his absence from the House a short time since was for the purpose of writing out the notice of his motion for to-morrow night, for the purpose of giving it to the clerk.—( Cheers.) The notice he was going to submit, and which had been drawn up without any reference to any thing that had fallen from the Noble Lord, was in the follow ing terms.—( Here the Hon. Gentleman read the notice, but in a tone of voice that rendered him inaudible in the Gallery.) The purport of the notice %las, that he would this evening move that the petition presented by him complaining of the subscriptions raised to prosecute election petitions in Ireland be referred to a Select Committee.—( Hear, hear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL.—The Noble Lord has called the attention of the House to the proceedings of the night; and I think he has indulged rather unduly in an air of triumph— ( Great cheering from the Ministerial benches) at the resolu tions moved by the Hon. Member for Monmouth not being acceded to by the House. It is very possible that the Hon.. Member for Monmouth, not being used to the modes of pro ceeding in the House, may, without sufficient consideration, have given notice of resolutions with which other Hon. Mem bers could not agree.—( Hear, hear.) It may be very possible that the motion which he framed was not in accordance with the general view of those who share in his opinion as to the character of these subscriptions. --( Cheers.) But I do not think that the Noble Lord is justified in assuming from that that he is to leave this House with an assurance that the confederacy to collect subscriptions for the purpose of displacing Irish Members, and Irish Members only, is to remain unassailed.—( Loud and long-continued cheering.) I do not say that I could have supported the motion of the Honourable Member for Monmouth. Ido not say that it may be fit, considering the law and the precedents in these cases, to 'a L . tate a Select Committee upon the subject; but this I do sa), that an act more calculated to shake men's confidence as to the fair decision of Election Committees— ( Great cheering)—an act more calculated to make men be lieve that the seats in that House were to be determined, not according tit the just rights of the case, but according to the politics of those elm held those seats—(Renewed cheers) — an act more calculated to make one part of the United King dom afraid, nay, strongly sensible, that they will not get justice—( Loud and long continued cheering)—an act more calculated to work these evils than this combination, of which Mr. Spottiswoode is at the head, I know no instance of in the history of this country—( Great cheering)—and if I take any part in the debate to-morrow, it certainly will be to insist upon the dangerous character of such a proceeding.—( Cheers. ) What is the appearance that the thing presents? That men collect subscriptions to support or to attack seats which they think to be held unduly. That would be a question which, upon some precedents and some decisions, might well form matter for deliberation, and one high authority might be quoted who had given a legal decision upon views founded upon the subject. But this is not the character of this proceeding. The character of the present proceeding is this, that hardly were the elections over—hardly could any man know the exact circumstances of any particular election—than a party of persons—( Great cheering)—meet (this was upon the 30th of August, when the particulars of the elections could hardly be known) and decide immediately that a certain number of those elections—they neither say which nor how many—are iavalid—( Cheers)— they declare that practices had prevailed at those elections of which they could have no knowledge, and they proceed to say—not certainly that they found their petitions upon that point—but they proceed to say that: Members will be seated in the House having different opinions from those of many Gentlemen who have been returned for many parts of the United Kingdom.—( Hear.) What was the direct tendency of such a course as this ? Was it not enough to make every Irishman believe and think " Whatever I may do with my franchise, to whomsoever I give my vote, I know, although there may be a majority of hundteds of sound votes in favour of the Member to whom I commit my wants, my feelings, my interests, he will be no sooner returned to the House, than he will be attacked by a monied combination— ( Loud and:continued cheering from the Ministerial benches)_. not on the grounds that he does not represent me—not on the grounds that he is not sent by me freely into the House of Commons to speak my sentiments ; but because he does not speak the sentiments of those wealthy and more opulent per sons who take care that there shall be returned for the county or the borough of which I am an inhabitant a person, not to represent my sentiments, but to represent the sentiments of those who subscribe their money to secure the seats of such Members as they please ?"—( Cheers.) I maintain that the tendency of such a subscription is to raise in the breast of every independent elector the feeling I have stated, and no other.— ( Cheers. ) I put aside, at this moment, the incenvenience, the expense which may attend those who have been so elected ; at this moment I will not take that point into considera tion. But I say that, considering the difference of political opinions, and the differences in point of religion which prevail in Ireland, to raise a subscription fun, and to carry it throughout the country for the sole purpose of unseating Irish representatives, and no other represents tives—( Cheers)—is a measure more calculated to estrange the people of Ireland from a great portion, at least, of the people of England—more calculated to engender feelings of bitter ness and of alienation than any measure of which we have a record in history. —( Cheers.) It is calculated—and this is the most injurious effect of all—it is calculated to make the people of Ireland think that there are Members meeting in London cognizant of the Constitution, and aware of the practice of the House, who believe that if the Members for Ireland are not suitable to the taste of some parties in this country they may be turned out of their seats.—( Cheers.) I say this because the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) has thought fit, at the moment that the House was about to adjourn, to recite, out of triumph, an account of what had taken plane this evening. —( Hear, hear.) I ask the Noble Lord, therefore—as there is no doubt that the Honourable Member for Limerick will bring forward his motion—to come down to-morrow and say, not whether it is legal in certain eases to make subscriptions, but whether he is ready to starfid by this Spottiswoode conspiracy—(Great cheering front the Ministerial benches)—whether he applauds it as an act dane in the spirit of the Constitution—(Renewed cheering). —whether he stands up for it as an act calculated to cemeese the Union—(Cceitinued cheering)—wi.eter he:with his krvaw ledge of theproccedings of the House, will say that those who have circulated and promoted this subscription are likely to make the character of this House more respected throughout the empire.—( G seat cheering.) I will not say now that any direct proceedings can be taken by the House. I know but of one case is which resolutions of a similar na tu-e were proposed to the House, and they stand, indeed, upon a very weak and fragile authority. I wish I could quote some person of high legal fame as having brought them before the House ; I wish I could name some person.. of great constitutional knowledge, some person of sound judgment, as having proposed them ; but, alas 1 the only person I can name as having done so, was the Hon Baronet ( Sir Francis Burdett) the Member for North Wilts.—( Loud and long-continued cheering, mingled with much laughter.> Upon his authority I certainly shall not lean.—(Renewed! cheering.) The lion. Baronet undoubtedly brought a ease against two electors of Midillessx, who were Members of this House, who not only had signed a petition, but assembled at a meeting somewhere in the City, and passed resolutions con. demning the lion. Baronet for having obtained his seat by illegal means. The Hon. Baronet moved resolutions, calling upon the House to declare whether those electors had not committed an unconstitutional act.—( Cheers.) Their defence was, that, although they were Members of the House, they were electors of Middlesex, and that they had signed the re.. solutions in question, as being the only means by which they could make common cause with their fellow-electors, in pro moting a petition against the seat of one of their represen_