The Sun. — London, England, 1812-03-04 00:00:00

rate Was 19s a ton ; at - plaesent if way §6s. to utt. derstood also that at Hull, a place the most likely to be affe6led, there was not a sil) which was not either actually employed, or abo,ut to be taken lips In this respe6t too, the trade wit the Spa nish and-Portuguese Settlements in South America *otlld be m ore advantageous to' this country than the trade with the U n i te d S tates, on l y from a 7th to a 23 d part of which was carried on in British ship- Ping. When the commercial treaty of 1797 was "ncluded - w i t h A mer i ca, it was on the footing of reciprocal advantage. By that treaty it was provided r e the duties-in each country upon the insorta. trout from the other should be dimi n i s hed l 0 per "at. upon the existing duties. No sooner how ever, was this treaty concluded, than Am e ri ca doubled, h er d uti e s, which amounted to nearly a pro teribition o f British g 0,4.14. By trading with the and Portuguese Seolements in South Arne this country would get navigation, and it would g ee mercantile profits. Nothing could be more clear than the disadvantageo us s i tuat i on in w hi c h Orders Bri ta i n would h lye been placed, but for the utirders in Council.—France would then have had 'e benefit of that trade from which we should ` l ave been excluded. She would have amply fur "ished herself trim America with all that she irequirede with raw m a t er i a l s f or l :er manu ac'n'esr and parti cu l ar l y w i h c o tton, for t h e Importation of . which she` had recently shewn the greatest- anxiety. What had been the origin of the Orders in Council ? France sat 1 that there 513 " 01, 1 be no trade to England. Our answer was I ( e a n answe r w hi c h w e h a d t h e power to enforce), j'at nothin g should go to France that did not come °II I her to Eng - land - We had a right to siy to Lt-I,ral powers, 'hat if they tolerated a reeulation uric' of . ininiicA to our cotniner c;a.l triterests, they must tolerate a regulation on our tart ,it l defence of those interests. Nothing hostile -a , iii; - tiara towards A mer i ca . On th e eontrara. . t e e l ' e , i). de , ' le,. attention ;red kindness %vas slie‘.vit ; o "T by Gnat Britain. The c on d e et o f Frarce sw• arils A. i e et ;' w as di rec tl y t h e reverse,. Not C tent w th the Berlin Decree, she proceeded to „ l o Aineri eae property at sea, and then issued th e t. Decr ee , which suhjeeted to confiscation Nit' at vessels that permitted themselves to be : rel ied.- It has bean said, that the French P-- ee s had been revoked ; b u t on no foundation. In r ej ece; , t prize cause,, on a vessel c a ll e d th e C a th er i na u gns.ta, it wa s a ll owt d t h at t 's e B er li n and Midi] b etre es 1), , d not b ee n resc i n d e d . A n A met i cat i 1, In ballast, from Charlestown, had also been I s l arl.r ed in-to ( Aais ; and no longer ago than Novem er last, the Capiain and o'a ner presented a pet itien i ° Congress, praying their interposition, and :dreg eptig that the vessel so captured was taken On the sole :7c i u „ u nd Of a supposed- iitfraetion of the Bea lin and lap pool Decre , ..s., But the He - use was told, that there been n e eenderrmatiens in France ueder t'iese e.e 1 ,„ -t ees. Of this he could not spt.-ak ; but no one eu -a tlid deny that there had been sequestrations to a th Hclerabi e amount . It eretty neatly the same l e t r , ) g. Every s yll a bl e v. lido the Han. Gentleman ee "instered on the su senatheect ii4pers, was ci} C able to the period before the Orders ie Coon at'd the Trade Licenses were issued ; and te e - , W ould sate, wit' out fear of coetredietieii, z-bat - iatterhaa ver ii much. checked - -erje• - y and fraud Betbre the Liceeses :.ere issued, tt necessary -tor ere Captain of 'a ship to lake au o ath at th e C astem.heilye, reltrive . to the .size of is ship and the number of his o.en. This wa, tiis f?rftinued, an d h e kn e w of no ooh substituted. °all those shocking perjuries e'hi c h w ere formerly t 'luent in Doetors'Commoes, I;:ere was no teinp- L at , i tm• • He had inquired paroCularly into the sub ' J e s 4 - 1, and h e was assure d, b y M asters of neutral yes- . ls, that t h ey were not upon to mate any zef i davits on the o her side: of tee water - . Udder ti es ecircutnstane es , was it lair fur the Hon. Gen ell'an to conic down and bland th e na t iona l dia. t4.6ter With the inapt - nation A 53sternatic perjury ? abolished the Orders in Council and the Licenses tatrlished, when indeed the country would return to ct system of neutethiation under which perjuries trere formerly- so frequent. Reverting-to the dis %e-es Of the - manufacturers, lreexpressed his per -seelsino ,tat great arts had been used to make the j e lling individuals believe that their evils originated e , Me Orders in Council. Those persons had f rtai lily borne their distresses with a patience arid s e a i ttitude which entitled their present complaints e ib t i ne most indulgent attention ; but it was impal itere to convince him that the greater part of the th ivi d 6 als who put their names to a petition against the Orders in Council were at all aware of the mode w e w hich those Odors operated,; and of this he • l e s assured; th tt I heir sufferings would be materi t iricreaed were those Orders rescinded. He then s c e l°k a view of the exports of the- current year, s i e ' e h, however. depressed, he contended, still con tiLerThlyexeeeded what had been their amount in e le Years 1803 and 1804. From this circumstance eb thought he had aright to' assert that the statements which had been made with e Pea to. th e p resent state of the country, were in ,P, e a l measure without foundation. The.country C 4l d. hot be'ruined while such a comparison could : made. Would it be contended that Englatid Qt s net a great country in 1803 and 1804 That ( "at period she was such, had ne ver y et b een den ted; and• what grounds, then, could there befor asserting that she was ruined now, because her i tt t a , •, -(16 was depressed ? since, though it was not what " oßd.been, her exports still exceeded. considerably w hat they were in. the years he had named. The ilOnourable and Learned Gentleman had said, that ti ,"e goods exporte d i n t h e year t&O9 h a d not -b een a `'le to find a Market. There he was obliged to ta utraditi him.. He would tell him, that they did fi nd a market ; and yet more, that our goods con- Potted to find a market till the month of March,. i n 1810. Under the headof Imports, he presumed he : need : not inform the, Honourable Gentleman• t hat the p ro d uce o f our co l on i es an d f i sheries was 4a cluded. This stated, however, ,it would be Eeen, that, our exports, compared with our imports, did not determine the balance of trade. With re seed to. what had been said of the excessive issues of Bank paper in England, he had to say, that our sank notes had increased within the last two months by the exchange at Hamburgh, from 10 to 15 per Cent. e and he had no doubt, if things continued as favourable as at present they appeared, that a still -6e f ake arthe Prlac iapid improvement •in the exchange. would "b t e_ . Is. , . . diction to 'what. thiy hld heard front the other side, ou the Bullion Question. He contended that the cotedua of this country had been conciliatory towards America, and that the Berlin and Milan Decrees were not repealed by • the Procleina lion of the Duke of Cadore. The Orden - in Council, it therefore followed, they were not of right .called upon to repeal. The effects of their repeal, under existing circumstances, thoug h be neficial to America and- France, would be most injurious to England, and all the former system of perjury would again be revived in our Courts of Admiralty. The trade of this country had fiourished.under the Orders in Council till last year, when it was crushed by the adoption of a measure on the part of the enemy, which,. •he believed, no nation had ever before made use of against another. The effect of this unprincipled conduct was now re- • coiling on themselves. In Ordinary cases, it was but little comfort for one nation in distr2ss. to know that another was suffering in the same manner, but in the present instance it was satisfactory to know, that the measures adopted by the enemy to do us. mischief, were now acting against himself. ,The - revenue of France had been greatly injured by these measures, as_ he could prove from official docu ments. In 1807, - the French Customs amounted to about 2,400,0001. sterling. In the year 1808, after the Orders in Council had been issued, it sunk 740,0001. and ie 1809, 460,0001. more. In 1810 they hid got ue again, it was true, to 2,000,0001. but this increase arose from the proceeds of the ves sels eeized in the Prit.sian p r ts. Tie Custoths only rose in consequence of the robberies committed there on iedi• iduals. The discounts of the French Bank were in 1810, 30,000,0001. In 181 t , e.ey were reduced to 16,000,000!. rhe profits in le to were 10,0001. in 1811, 4,5001. It would taus be seen that -the profits of the French Beuk m ere re :duced to so small a sto-4 that there was hardly .a Beek in England condueted. by individuals on their own account which did nut divide as much. The view to he taken of the et feces of our hostilities on the manufaelwes of France was equally unfavourable to the eriemy.---- Th: Right Hon. Gentleman then woceeded to de fend the practice of granting licenses ; add con cluded by 'expressing it to be his convi .ion, that to repeal the Orders in Council ..ould be the. most mischievous thing that could be done, and he there fore hoped the Hotise would not agree to appoint the proposed Committee. Mr. BA al NG said we had interrupted the cony inerce of Attie; ica, in the hope of rivalling her, and the etre& of our measures ,k• as to give dee com e meree to an enemy which we denied to a neutral. We -Ird injured oursett es by raising a spirit - of hostility against us where we had friends before, and thus that futile embitiun. which greeped. at every thing, had been in this instance (as in most others it was, - and' indeed ought to be,) disap poieted. Our change of system would he perma nently trijuriou+ this country, as it had forced the Atnericatie to become their own manufaCturers. - Tice Right - 1 - lotL.Gentletuan had spoken much of the advantages- resuttitig from the Orders - in Conn , ell, as haviug.dimimshei! the .French Customs, but if with the customs he could compare he ctintisca ticmsello believed he w o uld find the a m o unt of the latter greatly exceeded whatever the'former had been at any tifue in Fram•.e. evei y pciint of view, -he thought it was I,eeessary to repeal our Orders in 6tsunell. ' He could see nothing so arrogant or so overbearing in the conduel of America, as td render it necessary to refuse to do' so, 'in order to vindicate our honour, as stone Gentlemen seemed to imagine. There was no reason for apprehension on account of our maritime rights, of which so much had been said, and he thought the Commit tee ought to be appointed, it le were only to take into consideratiowthe license trade, and to ende:ivour . to suggest some better re 7 gula.ions than bed yet been adopted. Mr. STEPHEN was averse to a discussion on sub jects conneded with the pending negotiations be tween this country and America, and was therefore sorry the last speaker had touched on the subjed. The Motion before the House " For the appoint ment of a Select •truntnitte to inquire into the State of our, Trade, especially that part of . it which had a reference to .the Orders in Council, &c." was very indefinite:—The Orders' in Council had run now to such a length, that to make such a motion as that betore the House, was as if a Corn mittee should be moved ter to inquire into the State of Trade 01 this Country, or of that part of it which referred to the existing a&s of Parliament. He did not 'know whether his Honourable Fitend meant 'the Orders of April 1809, or of January. 1807. He strongly objected to the appointment of a Committee to'go over ground so often controterted in the discussion of a measure of such commercial and political importance. Not only had the Orders in Council been harmless, but our trade had risen to a state of unparalleled prosperity since they were issued. The returns on this subject had been re jected, when unfavourable to the views of Gentle men opposite; though they had been received as au thentic when they would suit their" purpose. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then took a connne hensive view of .what had been the state of our trade, and what the effect of the Orders in Council upon it. In August, September, and October, 1807, a very great depression was felt. So great was this depression, that application was made to the Custom-house k permission for sixty or seventy vessels to land their cargoes again, as all the ports of the Continent were shut against them: The stagnation of trade in that and the following year was so great, that the ex ports of both amounted to but twenty-nine nail -lions and a half. In the - Billowing years, after our retaliative measures were in force, they amounted to 51,414,0001. Thus it would be seen, there was an increase of 22,000,0001. in those two years, and this was the result of that dangerous experiment, as our attempt to retaliate was called. The state of. the imports, and the effect of the Orders on them were % much the same. In 1807 and 1808, they amounted to get her to 26,300,0001. and in the two following years their amount was 47,900,401. pre senting here an increase-01'2 t neatens and a half.— He was astonished to hear the outcry raised against the Orders in Council, when it was thus proved, that under them, our trade had flourished mere than it ' had ever done before. With respect to what had been said of our losing all the great benefits of a trade to' America, which we had previously enjoyed, he could prove, that tahine into consideration our Vourable in those two years. He could prove an increase in our trade across the Atlantic in those two years, amounting to More than 0,000,0001. It wilts easy to get rid of these fact a by throwing discredit on the returns presented by the Inspeaor General; but he should be glad to know from what better soured the 'proposed 'Committee could obtain in formation on the subjea. With respect to the ap parent distress under which the country at present labours, the Hon. Gentleman seemed to forget that similar distress pervaded the manufaeluringe districts previous to 1807, in Manchester and other 'places. Though the very high tide of prosperity which fol lowed in 1810, had materially relieved the pressure, i the subsequent distresses had arisen from a variety of causes not to be attributed to any defeat in the Government, but to adverse winds.and loss of con voy. The Hon. Gentleman contended, that the Continental system had originated all the measures complained of. The system of licenses, on which frauds and perjuries were charged, did not contri e bate to the distress; for if the whole trade were to be given up to the Continent, the same causes would arise. The licenses were given to the mer chants as a proteetion against that system in our Prize Courts. If America, he contended, was per mitted to - export to France all the produce of her possessions to the exclusion of ours, and Germany had also license to introduce her manufactures, this country-would .stand no chance of competition in the market. The repeal of the Orders in Council • would not settle the differences with America, be cause she insisted upon the withdrawing of the blot kading system as much as the repeal.- If then the dereands in that respect were acceded to, the whole of our Euro, can trade would be given up.— He therefore must op t ,ose the motion, convinced . that VLe could not carry on the war against the com [eon. enetn) if we consented (as we should do in case we repe - aled the (eiders in Council and e the B:ockading System) to give up our mar i t i me lights. Mr. CANNLNG regretted that he was compelled to state dry matter of faa, after the speech of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, so conversant with the subject ; but he had expeaecl to hear from the Hoaourahle and Learned Gentleman, the deve looement of ticeie principles on which Government had proceeded with respe.:l to the Orders in Coen- . ; Lhe more so, as the Right Honourable Presi dent of the Board of Trade had misrepresented th en. If lie (Me. C.) understood the quesiion, he was convinced, that by referring it to a Commit tee, it would be properly. understood, and the public would see that the Government' were justi fied in adopting them, and that they were neces sary for-the safety of the country. He most cheer ;Lilly, therefore, would take his share of responsibi lity, for having be eu one of the advisers. The Right Hon. Gentlemail (Mr. Rose) had said that they were not measures of retaliation but of defence—Why wete they so, but because they were retaliatory? The Right Honourable Gentleman discussed the propriety of their adoption, in consequence of the French •Government having declared the I)ritish Islands in a state of blockade, and the same principle was expressed in the Orders cif January, 1807, and the subsequent ones with a view.. to repress the violence of the enemy, and to make that violence recoil on himself. It was thought advisable afterwards to mitigate teat meeanre as far as it affetted neutrals. It was to be• lamented that they should sutler wrongs and inconvenience, but it could not' be avoided from the state of things. As to what had been stated respe‘ling the distress of the nianutacturers, that distress, he was free to confess, was great enough ; but if they expected to find relief in a repeal of the Orders, they were mistaken. An idea had gone ebroae to that effect, and it was necessary a Corn tnittee should be appointed to remove the illusion. It was a failing of humae nature to attribute Oae misery under which it suffered, whether real or ima . gmary, to tangible causes, rather than believe that it did not exi s t. The Hoie Mover hal described the frauds tied perjuries under the licenses to have ex istence and connection with the Orders in Council.. Most certainly he regarded that charge with a jea lous eye, and he must deny that there wag any fili ation between them. The Honourable and Leaned Gentleman (Mr. Stephen) had looked at the ap pointment of a Committee with alarm. He (Mr. Canning) confessed he saw nothing alarneng in it. On the contrary, they would Conte out of the Com mittee in a beneficial point of view, and consequently that,Goventinent was justified in adopting the meae stn . & had chosen. The licenses were given to -the :mercantile interests to remove objections and doubts, and to erect an uniform principle en which they might safely act. • As to the system of block ade, he was convinced that it was highly desirable; and lie 'regretted that an unmitigated - system of blockade bad not been enforced against the ports of Russia. if such a system, had been adoptei, the politics of that Government would have then taken a different- - course. The Right Hon. Gentleman was not disposed to sacrifice the rights of, com merce, but if the objea which was fitta'nf'd by the adoetion of the Orders could be se c u re d by the .re , taxation of them, he had no objection for one, bet that would be best ascertained in a Committee. .- -- Mr. Mall it 'it ATT defended theOr - ders in Council, but WaS of opinion that the Trade Licenses had been very injurious ; not more in cpunteraaing the, effea which the Orders were calculated to have on the enemy, but in - depresjng our colonies to the advantage of those of our Allies. As an instance of the last assertion, he mentioned that the Island of Cuba, which ) at the commencement of the War, exported only 70,000 hogsheads of sugar in the year, now exported 220,000. He would not vote for the Committee, because he thought it unneces sary ; but he advised a stria. adherence to the Or ders in Council without any relaxation whatever. Mr. G. JoHNsToNit, on the contrary, defended the licenses as indispensable, but would vote for the Sir CHAPLES PRICE opposed the motion. Mr. WILBERFORCE said, he was one of those who were of opinion, that the Orders in Council afforded the only means of restoring our trade, at the lime it wai totally suspended ; but the differ ence of opinion that existed now on the subje& was in itself a call for investigation. The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER said, that he did not rise to object to this motion from any apprehension that he entertained, of inquiry, confi dent as he was that the distresses of the mernhArit. the Orders in Cottheil ; but lie objeeed to the ins. quiry because it was not celculated toproduce hy possible benefit. He could , not agree with hi s H o n. Friend, echo had j us t sa t down, that it would tee expedient to go into this inquiry, if it were for no other purpose but to strew them that no inquiry at all were necessary. He was not surprised, howe ever, at his Hon. Friend supporting, because it was that species of motion which generally met with • his approbation ; indeed the motion was framed with .a view to catch his Hun. Friend, and that descripe Lion of Gentlemen ,who might be called floating votes. He was surprisecti, however, at what 'clad" fallen from hiS Right Hon.'Frieud (Mr. Catring) upon this occasion. If his Right Hon. Friend wee of opinion, and he was sure he was, th tt the Orders in Council were not only justifiable, but absolutely necessary, if his Right Hole Friend 'bought, and he was sure he did, that tire distre-ses of the mance faaurers, which had been brought forward as the. grounds of the present motion, did not arise from the Orders in Council, he should have thought. that his Right Hon. Fliend, entertaining such senti ments, would have been one of the last men in ttid House to have given his support to a motion for in-. quiry. There was one circumstance welch had occurred in the present debate, which had never occurred before, and raper which he could not avoid. congratulating himselt. Although Gentlemen bad represented the Orders in Council as impolitic, and as produCtive of great injury to this country, not one of them had this night contended that the principle upon which they were founded was- unjust. He wished to press this upon the House, because, upon former occasions, the injustice of the Orders in Courcil had been strongly urged, and it was highly gratifying to him to find that that line of argument was now abandoned. The Orders in Council were therefore now to be argued merely as a question of policy, not as a question of justice. He could not help expressing a wish that Gentlemen had always pursued that course—if they had, they would not have led America to believe that we were not only acting hostilely towards our enemy, but that we , e•ere concluding ourselves upon unjust principles towards the United States. He never could see much force in their arguments, but there could be no doubt but that they had produced a considerable rifled in America. His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Canning) had said that it was absurd in his Hon'. Friend (Mr. Stephen) to ask which of. the Orders in Council •it was they were finding fault•with, but he contended that the question was a most material one. The - Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had opened this discussion, and who had declaimed so strongly against the Orders in Council, had yet defendel the Order of 1807. It was therefore most material to know against which of the Orders in Council the accusel tion was seecifically direaed. With respea to the principle upon which these Orders in Council were founded, he begged to state, that he had always considered them as stridly retaliatory, and as tar as he understood the sebjea, they were most com pletely justified upon the principle of retalialion.--.. It never could, he was sure, be contended, in any assembly of rational men, that retaliation should bee excluded from the Law of Nations. There Was' in tact, no other means of enforcing obedience to the Law of Nations, bet by means of retaliation.— It a le•eitt and powerful nation, like France, will set all laws at defiance, will break down every sys tem that has hitherto been regarded as settee;, and will carry on the war uucootroaled by any prinerple of the Law of Nations, how is she to be resisted but by a recurrence to measure} of retaliation? 1 Law of Nations. would otherwise prove a trap and a• snare to those who were disposed to Obey them - , anti a sword and a shield to those who were deter ? mined to violate them. It was, therefore, itt , ;st absurd to contend that we had no right to have re course to retaliation; and yet it was upon that pri n . ciple that it was alp-led that we had acted unjustly to America. But then it is said, that if we do tee foliate, you must do it in mode and form, as the enemy has injured us—a more extravagant propo= erion it was difficult to conceive. What ! it the enemy chose to violate the Law of Natieni on a point where she had nothing to lose, and we had every thing, could it seriously be argued that we were bound to retaliate, not where we could make her feel, but where we could do her no pos sible injury When a country violates the Law of Nations, not in trifles, but boldly and systematically violates the Law of Nations, she loses the protec tion, because she had thrown off the obligation of that law. This was the principle upon which the whole of our proceedings had been founded. He was, he confessed, a little surprised at what had fallen from his Right Hon. Friend respeaing the mode in which he conceived the blockade was to be enforced. What was the occasion that led to the Orders in Council ? France had declared that Great Britain should not have any trade with any nation upon earth ; the British Government, in re turn, said, You (France) shall have no trade but with us. The object of Government was to prole& and to force the trade of this country, which had been assailed in such an unprecedented manner . by the French Decree:. If the Orders in Council had not been issued, France would have a free Colonial trade by means of neutrals, and we should have been shut oat of the Continent. If we' had at tempted to destroy all trade, both our own amid that of, France, France would have been the gainer, be cause she has less to lose, and she depends less upon her commercial exertions than we do. The objeet of the Orders in Council •was not to dest i roy the trade of the Continent, but to force it to trade with us. The article of bark, about which so much had been said formerly, would prove that he was earnest in his understanding of the prinCiple upon which the Orders in Council were founded. The British Government had never said that France should not have bark, it had only said, if - you ' want bark you shall not have it, unless you will import other articles with it. It was ob vious, therefore, that our object was to compel France, and the Nations that were subje& to her Decrees, to trade with us. In 180.9, Oleic was an alteration of the Orders in Council ; it was thought that the alteration proposed would be more acceptable to America, and it was so; but it was not only America that we bad in view, bat our allies. Built was needless hnewediblcesshe :gadforhimbeteongsooaatblicynth into these points, o an ticipated by his Right Hon. 'Friend, and by his Hon.