The Sun. — London, England, 1812-04-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAME.NE HOUSE OF PEERS. TUESDAY, APRIL 14. The fdrther cons deration of the case of the Rox -burgh P. : er ige, which stood for this day was ad imirlieJ till Thursday. lie a C , nitnittee of Privil gei, their Lordships pro ceedel to the cods;derationof the ciaiini of Archi- B ribwi(k, Esq. to the B irony of Borihwick. ,sel were head, and much docurnentaly evi:, drle, •Iticcd. To procer d again on Thursday. The Ermse then resumed, and alter prayers were read, i w.is ordeied, on the motion of the Earl of BUCKINGHAMSHJRE, that the Foul th Report of the Committee app,rrnied to inquire into the affairs of the East India Company, should be laid before the CONFERENCE. Mr. LYG ;N, fir•ZOinp inied by several Members, . brought up a Message from the Commons, request ing a conference with their Lordships, on the sub, ject of then Amendments to the Local Militia Bill. The Message being communicated to their Lord ships, it yi as ord4red that the desired conference be presently held in the Painted Chamber. In ihe course of a few minutes, Mr. Quarme, .Aalitig Usher -of the Black Rod, informed their Lordships that a Deputation from the Commons were waiting, for the appointed conference with their Lordships. Accordingly the Earls of Sandwich, Shaftesbury, Harcourt, and Liverpool, the Bishop of Oxford, Lord. Napier and Arden, were nomi nated to manage the conference on the part of their Lordships, and they forthwith-proceeded to bold the oonteit nce. On their return, the - Earl of SANDWICH read a report of the cunt rence at the table, which was ordered to be taken into consideration to-morrow. TRADE TO INDIA. The Duke of NORFOLK presented a Petition from the Master .ind Wardens of the Corporate Tuwn of Sheffield, and certain Met diants, Manufatlorers, and others, of the said Town and Distrid, praying to be admit ted.to a participation of tie trade to In dia. The Petition being read, was ordered to lie on the table. On which his Grace, pursuant to what he had stated on a former evening, rose- to inquire of Ministers respelling their intentions as to the re oewlil of the East India Company's Charter, and as to !heir object in the pendiog plocetdings ; whe ther they inten,ed to continue the monopoly— whether to diminish it, or so do it away totally ? The period was now arrived, and the circumstances of the case such, when application were made from various pasts of the country, and which applicitions would be still followed up by oak -I.s, that the in: tentions and objetis of his Majegy's Government on this importa -, t subj.!6t ought to be known. The EArl of BUCKINGHAMSHIRE observed, that the state of the negodations between Government anti tile Court of Du e,lors was such . a._ precludcyl him at pretur'nt from giving a direct answer to the queries of the Noble Duke. FiTzwieLtAta bard a few words, apparently to lie purport of what had fallen from the iNoble Duke Earl GREY said, he concurred with his Noble Friend that the rime was now arrived in which the intentions of Government on a topic of immense magnitude ought to be known. The Country had generally expressed its anxiety on the .subjett. They were told that the state of the negociations were such, that a direr answer could not be given. What degree of diligenc9 had been used, when, at this season of the year, the middle of April, no farther progress was made, may easily be judgrd. -By what the Noble Lord, ,at the head of the department in question, said, it would appear to him that Mini, sters had, not yet made up their minds on the sub jeti. By what had fallen from the late President of the Board of Contronl, they were led to expea the affair would be finally arranged this session. The Chatter would not expire till 131 4, and he was adverse to the adoption of any premature or hasty measures. As Ministers were unable to bring the subje& for ward at such a period of the Session as to afford time for a, full and complete discussion of its merits, he thought it would be decidedly prefer able not to, press it for the present, but to post. pone the consideration of a question of such great national importance until the next Session of Par liament. BANK OF ENGLAND. Earl GREY rose to bring forward the motion le speating which he had recently given notice. It would gc, he obJerved, first, for an account of the total value of the notes refused in payment at the Bank since the year 170, on the ground of their being forged, distinguishing the value of those in each respective year since that period. To this, he believed, no objeetion would be made. But the in formation he most wished for, and without which the anterior would be nugatory, was an account of the number of the noses so presented; this be thought more especially necessary, with a view to the discussion of the measure which would ere-long come before that House. Such a statement alone—, be said, would enable them to form a. judgment how 0 far individuals, were likely to suffer in that way under the system, which that measure went to ex tend, and to continue. The Noble Eail then mov . ed fur an account of the value of the notes as above from the year 1797 to the latest period the slate could be made up, distinguishing the nominal value of the notes so presented in each year, &c. which was forthwith agreed to by the House. His Lordship then moved for the production of an. Account of the number of Notes 40 presented and returned. On the question. , The Earl of LIVERPOOL observed, that to the trst part of the Noble Earl's proposition he thought, under the present circumstances, and with reference t 0 the Bill in its progress in that House, no ratio nal objection could be made. It, besides, would furnish all the necessary or useful information de aired, inasmuch as the specification of the value in each year would shew the progress as weld as the extent of the evil, With regard to that under con sideration, be certainly entertained no objections; it would also, on the Noble Earl's own pound, af ford but little further information, except a distinc tion was made between.the notes hew: and above the sum of 51. One strong objection was, that it ufould affo.d information as to what description of motes forgeriefi may be the more easily made; every s seful purpose would be answered by a specifica! tion of rtMual number and total value of the,, noes retu•ed in each year, and wh it was now pro posed appeared to hirer at best to he unnecessary and staiterflooo4. Earl GREY thought, by what fell from the Noble Seca-t ary of Stale , , he illt•si have ms-ipprehended" the object of his motion ; it went to shew What he allowed to be proper, the extent of the evil, and which could not be satisfactorily shewn without an account of the number 'of instances in which the evil had taken place ; it was cot so much the amount aS in the nature of the stint, and the multiplicity Of oastaoces in wbiclethe offence had been committed. It was said not to exceed 90001. as to nominal value, one year w ith anoi her,. but without a specification of the numbets, they could not tell whether forge -ries were committed in nine instances of 10001. each, or in a thousand instances of 11. each. He had no objettion to amend his motion as suggested, by salting fora distinction of the notes under and above 51:1 and as to the objeetion of the Noble Earl, that to pu n ish the description of notes would be injuri ous, be thought it could not really be believed that the piaditioners in forgery wanted any information through the madium of that House. One great ob ject should be the diminution of opportunities for the commission of the offence alluded to, as far as pos shale, for it made one's blood run cold to read the fat% in the papers of the numbers brought to teial on such charges, and sent away with verdicts of guilty— Death. The Earl of LIVERPOOL, inleply, contended that every useful purpose would be answered from the Accounts already ordered. He" was far from with holding any information really useful or necessary : the real question to be considered was, whether the evil complained of was progressively increasing or not, and that would fully •appear by the Accounts just ordered to be laid before the House. The Earl of LAUDERDALE contended, that the specification called for by his Noble Friend, was necessary to elucidate that part of a very important subject. The Noble Secretary seemed to have for got that before 1797, notes of IL and 21. were un known in the couney. The forgeries were said to be chiefly for those low sums, and it was proper they should know how far the evil arose from that system which the expeaed Bill went to enforce and to continue, Earl . STAN HOPE hoped their Lordships would per alit bin to say a few words respelling the opinions Jost declared upon / e a very important subject. He believed-it to be fad, that the greater proportion of the value of the forgeries has been in the small notes. He did not approve of the motion as then worded; it was liable to an objetlion urged by the Noble Se m:wry, as to its tending to .mislead. He saw no reason, however, why les Noble Friend 'should not call for a specification of all the classes of notes in which forget les w e re committed. It was a topic to which he believed he had given ten times the atten tion given to it by all the Members of Parliament put together. He had suggested a mode which would go to prevent forgeries at home ; but what was greatly to be feared was the effes of foreign for gery, when these notes Should be put on a different . looting ; the forgeries would be cioensive‘ 'and sys tematical. They recolleCted the forgeries of the assignats. With respect to the Bill in its progress 'to that House, the great object with resped to it, and the subject of, which it formed a part, was that the holder of the note should receive the value it was worth. Every thing that could, should be done to prevent forgery and its consequences; and also to render the person who held a note, certain that he should receive that which was its value. I In that view, the fullest inforMation should be afforded.— One great means which led to the facility of forgery was the wretched style of executing notes]; and it had been said to him, jocosely no doubt, that they ought not to hang those who forged, but the Bank Directors for making the notes so liable to be forged. Earl GREY amended his motion, in the way sug gested by his Noble Friend ; and the question being put thereon, their Lord Ships divided. For the motion . . . tz Ag:thist it . . . 27 Majority . . On our re-admission to the House, the Clerk was reading a petition presented by one of their Lordships, from (as we could colli61) the Potteries in Staffordshire against the Orders in Council.—Or dered to lie on the table. The Earl of LAUDERDALE moved, that there be laid before the House a Statement of the period at which the Diretiorsof the Bank of England gave up indemnifying the Holders of forged Notes On this proposition sotnexonversation took place. Lord HOLLAND expressed his surprise ihat Mi nisters seemed unwilling to acquiesce in piopositioris of the kind until they had consulted rice Bank Di redors. The motion he thought necessary, and adverted to the period, as long subsequent to the restriction on the Bank. He noticed the circrim stance of a forged note he had brought some years after that period, and which he had communicated to the Bank as connected With asystent of forgery, said to be then going on. He was offered indenini fication. But he could not avoid observing, that it was to the disgrace of the country that the example was set, not by individuals, but by the Government itself, and it \was to the shame of the country that the practiLe should be approved in the Tribunals, on the ground of its being against the enemy of the country. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that with nape& to any specific proceeding of the Government of the country at the time adverted to by the Noble Baron, he certainly could not speak front any personal know ledge ; but they all knew, that when the circum stance had beets expressly referred to in that House— it strongly denied and disclaimed by a Noble Baron (we believe Lord Grenville) then holding a high situation the Government, who denied that such a fact had ever taken place. With respeet to the idea held by the Noble Baron, of his 'aloneness to consult those whose interests were so immediately concerned, he bad to state, he felt it incumbent on him, not wily in the case of the Bank of England, but of any other - Public Body whose interests were deeply implicated to endeavour to endeavour to learn whether important objections were entertained, and where these were communicated, he alwaysex eicised his own judgment how far such constituted a tit ground for objection or argument in Parliamen tary discuSSiun. Lord HOLLAND spoke in explanation, ; and after 4 , GNI, words frotri the Earl of Landerfiate, the_motion was wit hdraw n. AFrAIRS OF INDIA zop:es of certain Cotninuttic'ations between the 141nrqt:isWelles!ey and other'Gy - ernors and Officers of theCotripany in India, ami the Court . of Direc tors were; on the minions of the Eat] of Lauder dale ordered to be laid before the House.—He then, in_ pursuance of what-passed on a former even ing moved, " That there be laid before the House. Copies of Al Rules, Orders, amt Regulations, for the good order and civil govern. incur of the Settlements of the United Company trading to India, or fort William, and other places and settlements subottlinate thereto." The EaQ•of BUCKINGHAMSHIR E disapproved of the motion, as embracing too wide and extensive a scope, and requiring a much greater length of time than the Noble Earl seemed aware ot, to coiled and prepare d.xurnents so voluminous and extensive. It was very different from what he understood to have been the objea of the Noble Earl a few days ago, To a proposition, as he then conceived it, he had no objection, and- in that view bad prepared himself a motion on the subjea, which he begged leave now to submit to the _consideration of the House :—lt was for laying before their Lordships - Copies of such Rules and Regulations as bad been made in pursuance Of certain a6ls of his Majesty, with respect to Europeans not in the Service of the Company, resorting to, or resident in any of the set tlements in India. This would fully go to what, in the views adverted to, he conceived to be the ob jects with respea to European residents in the Com pany's territories in India. The Earl of LAUDERDALE contended, that no Such difficulties would, obtain in the procuration of the documents he moved for, as they were, under an A& of Pailiament, -to be transmitted to the East India House periodically. It was essential that those who may be authorised - to trade to India, should know the nature and extent of these regula tions, without which, the nature and value of what they may acquire in the way of permisSon, would be unknown to them; these were a species Of law in India, framed under the authority ()fan Al,t and which- were deeply connected with the trade to; and in that oruntry ; and the information. his motion went to convey, was, in his opinion, essentially ne cessary to the understanding the subject in some.of its tuoit important bearings. The Earls of BUCKING.HAMSHIRE and LAUDER DALE spoke respectirtly in explanation; and the latter suggested the propriety of appointing a Com mittee to inspect the Books, and to 'report what these rules and regulations were. _ . Lord Viscount MELVILLE supported te objec tions of the Noble President of ibe Board of Cun t rout, and strongly disapproved of the. last expedient ; from such a process no serviceable information, so exren•ive and voluminous were the documents, could be expe&ed not only in the present, but for several Sessions of Parliament. • The Eat! of LAUDERDALE obser,ved, that the in formation in questitin was directed to be communi-, cated annually, under an At of which the Noble Viscount's father was the author. After some further discussion, in which Earl Grey shortly supported the arguments urged by his Noble Fii,nd, and the Eat] of Lauderdale and Lord Vis count Me;vitle repeatedly spoke in explanation; The Ea'l of LIVERPOOL observed, that the real question before the House was,' whether a .motion should.be adopted whiCh would answer every objed of that originally proposed, and was not liable to any of its onjections The second, he contended, would produce every information necessary for the purpose; it would put the House in possession ul ail the rules and regulations made, or now; in force in the Company's tenitories, .respecting all Europe- ADS not attually in their service ; and it. would be crime a question, if a boon were Meant to beheld out respelling a permission to trade, how far such rules and regulations ought to subsist. The mo tion would bring before the House, under w hat re— strithons of law and policy, Europeans are allowed to reside in, and carry on their trade in The question being put, the m o tion of the Earl of LAUDERDALE wai negatived, and that of the Earl of BUCKINGHAM/MIRE, carried without a di- Vision. The Bills upon the table were forwarded in their respettive stages. The Innkeepers' Allowances hill, and a few others, were brought up from the Commons, and read a first time. AdjourLed till to-morrow. , HOUS4 OF COALVIONS. TUESDAY, APRIL 14. Mr. R. P. CAREW obtained leave to bring in a Bill to facilitate and promote the Discharge of the Duties of Surveyor of Highways and Turnpike goads throughout England and Wales. Lard G. L. Gowsa presente4 a Petition from the Ch_ ina Manufacturers of Siatibrd, against the Orders in Council.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. KENRICK obtained leave to bring in a Bill to amend the General Inclosure Aa. . He also brought up the Report of Guldsmid's Deb; liquidaiion Bill. Theßesolurions were agreed to, and the Bill order ed to be read a third time to=morrow. • The Legal Quays Bill was read a third time and passed. Mr. LYGON, as Chairman of the Committee ap pointed to communicate to the Lords the disagree ment of the Commons to•une of their Amendments to theLocalMilitia Bill, reported that the Lords had agreed to a conference on the subject. A Committee was them appointed to conduct the conference, and zettred immediately. On their return, Mr. LT GON informed the House, that their Lordships had agieed to give up the Atn'et4ment. Loed Mit.ToN, on presenting a Petition from the Clothiers of the West Riding cf Yorkshire, stated, that the object of it was to complain against-the Or ders in Council. The petition► did not complain of extravagant grievances, but of evils which were £oberly an►d seriously felt. Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. ROSE moved for an Account of the Income and Expenditure ot the British Museum. Also of thr.: sums tequired to discharge the expenditure in the year 1812, and of the number ot persons who had been &Iraq* to it from May 1611, to April The motion was - agreed to, and the papers pre sented", and ordered to bN printed. Mr.\VYNNe moved for an Account of the Amount of the Laf , d Tax assessed on the several Counties ins England aneWales.—Ordered; Mr. HORN .& inoved for several pipers recating to the circulatio:i of Bank of England notes for the last twelve months, which wo - eordered. ' • Mr. BARING gave notice that he would move on Fridpy next for several Ch►i►ta paperi. COLONEL WMAtION'SAPPOINTMENT. Mr. W. WYNNE said, that when he first men tioned the appointment to the House, which he was now about to nring under its notice, he little thought . thaninwould have teen necessary for him to go so much into detail,asupon further information he fonnd himself obliged to. He had supposed,. in the firar instance, .that the motion for such papers as he was now about to move fOr, would have been as much a matter of course, as the ove which had been just agreed to by the Ukase. He had always thought, that when a new office (an office unknown before to the •Constituijon, and only in existence under ,i: peculiar circumstances, for he last tew years) was created, and publicly avowed, it would be necas- . r , sary to inform Parliament of whatnature it consisted, -' what duties it embraced, and to what purposes it was applicable. He never recolle&ed an instance where a motion professing for its onjeat the attainment 'of such information was refused. At present it -ap peared, on the authority of the Gazette, that Co- lonel M`Mabon was . appointed - Private Secretary ;: to his Royal ; Highness th e P r i nce R egent , acting ',.. on the part and in the behalf of his Majesty, but no regular official notice whatever was gi% en of the duties which he had to fulfil. - All that was known at present wfts, that the situation was the same as that "which had bean filled by Colonel . Tal'lor •:' during the discharge of the executive functions by .::. his Majesty; but what the d ut i es were we kn ew . ! i not. If they considered, they would find that' cir cumstances 1; existed formerly which created a gieater . necessity than appeared at- present to demand such e: additional.assistatice. King William was n ot on ;y , e the main spring of, the Government of hia time, but the most a6live and scrutinizing observer of every department, yet he-never had a Private Seeretary a -- When the Bruns w ick Family first came over, George .the First was known to be a stranger to our language, . e an assistance of this kind, therefore, was more ne- ces , atry tohitn, yet he never had any. His present :i Majesal,they all knew, was in the habit of paying the Most constant attention to all the details of oe- a sinesa, until the period of his unfortunate illness.— From the expiration of the American war till 1793, he had superintended the appointment of all coma : missions, and a_number of his noes in the War Of free at the present day, would testify with what ac- ~ curacy and minuteness. Yet he had never any pr - rate secretary until, the period of his blindness, which bronght him to the case of Colonel Taylor. , Indeed, a Secretary of Slate was, proputly Fpeaking,' _. his Majesty's secretary ; -so it was in the reign of ' King William, and in all the succeeding reigns down .to the-unfortunate period Of his peseta Ma jesty's blindness. Why, when the lloyal PcTOc - at the bead of the Government laboured under ,tio in firmity, could he not cArry on the business himself ? Toe Sovereign might sign one warrant, authorizing. the Commander in Chief to sign a certain nuerbine a , of Commissions en ume r a t e d i n t h e vi arrant . He ' could not conceive what difficulty would arise from . i this mode of proceeding, particularly as his Roy a l Highness resided in London. If the office was ' similar to that of Colonel Taylor, he wished to a' : know whether the business. of the'Cabinet Mini sters was to pass to his Royal Highness through any !I third person ? if so, that Was in itself a matter of such great consequ en c e , as t o ca ll f or serious in quiry. I; it it was deemed necessary that there should. 3 be an interior and an exterior administration, then , the appointment of such a person might be a con- venient step for the carrying or, of :the correspon dencebetween the interior and exterior Cabinets.. The. House, he thought, was intitled to hate the. instrument of Colonel ,M`Mahon's appointment on the table. He did not mean to seal with, any disrespect of the services. ofaColonel M'Ma hon, he was- sure he had acted faithfully, and was entitled to: reward; but had the Prince Regent nu other means of rewarding him than by the creation of a new office ? As to his nomination to the Pt ity Purse, he was sure theie could be no,objedion to it ; and if the salary was not enough, he might have been appointed Equerry, which would have madst, up the deficiency. He should have preferred stating those observations on a-subsequent motion after the papers had been granted, but as. that could not be done, he should move thattheres uldb b e y la w ld h b ic e i be fore the House acopv of aie instrument his Royal Highee-s, acing on the part and in behalf . of hii Majesty, had appointed the Right Hon. John M`Mahon to be Lis Private Secretary. Also copies , . of any notification to the Treasury on the sub. j e 6f, and of any correspondence conneded .there- with. , ~ Lord CASTLEREAGII said, the Hon. Gentleman. had attempted to raise his motion to a degree of im portance it by ne me ans d e . ervc d . . As be (Lord C.) shoUld resist the produdiOn of the formal official,,. docu , nent, which was necessary with no oilier viltw than that of doing away the office' in question,. he ,should proceed to state the reasons upon e. h:ch objedion restO, and the Hon. Gentleman having thought it necessary to bring the appointinent wi der the view of the House, he should submit the grounds on which he conceived the appoirittnent to stand. tie wou ld admit ' it was the duty of a Secre tary of State to take his Royal Highness's pleasure On the different meastnes that arose, and that ha performed no single fundion- for which Ministers were not responsible ; Was the constitution; If, then, the Honourable Gentleman could fairly Mak*. cut that the appointment of a Private Secretary had any, the slightest tendency to remove the respoosi. Why from Ministers, he certainly would have a case to shew; which must be fatal to the appoint* ment. Persuaded, however, as he was, that there was no fundion embraced in the duties of a Prixate Secretary, which could render him cansinutiOnally. responsible, he ;did not see how any fun Lion em braced in that capacity could operate to remove the constitutional responsibility of Ministers. The rnere circurnstance.of being a Privy Counsellor, was, he helieVed,,a new objection, and the interpretation of the oath into an obligation to obtrude advice perpe tually upon the Sovereign, if not new, was at . heist extraordinary and violent. He supposed that whin his Right Hon, Friend ordered the payment, h*