The Sun. — London, England, 1837-03-15 00:00:00

duty to provide for the religious wants of the provide for the national defence—he wouli In justice, or consistently with such an admi divert in any possible way the revenues of the C p u rposes t h an those of religious instructi on ?— i Noble Lord (Lord Howick) said he was pressing necessity, he allowed that the spiritual agreefor; with the Right Hon. Baronet in any proposition by Which their wants could be p rov id e d f or b y Parliament. But did not the N o bl e L ord see that the very principle on which the Dissenters grounded their objections to contribute to the repair o f C hurches, would also prevent them from agreeing to th e Prop os i t i on for the erection of new Churches, or supplying Lno religious wants of the people ?—( Hear, hear.) Why ;Iwould not the religious scruples be as strong against erecting :v : Churches, as against th e repa i r o f old ones ?—( Hear.) re his Majesty's Ministers aware of the extent of the sacri rceciO they were making ? Did they know that the party for the nof of whom this measure was intended would push their de mands to a greater extent, and to an extent nothing short of i the recognition of th e vo l untary pr i nc i ple.—( Hear, hear.) H e was the more induc e d t o d we ll on t h at po i nt, b ecause lie e o nsidered i t o f importance to show that the admission of the Noble Lord and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the State ought to provide fer the r e ligi ous wan t s o f t h e peop l e, and th e principle embodied in the resolution were directly op- Posed to each other. —( Hear, hear.) He had only one obser t\otion more. His Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for 13Ile Tower Hamlets last evening said it has been the almost r , ev ailing opinion of the House that the evil of the present f }s tcul was great, it was daily and hourly increasing, and that ; 1 ) . _ell an extent that some remedy must be applied to it. "'• he admitted the difficulties of continuing the present sys sem, and he would willingly concur in some measure for al ereing it, but he wo u ld no t agree t o th e present plan. 'Ms asure was at variance with the principle of an Establihshed % Cher ebe and he believed no one would vote for it who was o . t disp osed to adopt the voluntary principle.—( Hear.) He objected t o it on these grounds ; but he must say the paramount "Ilhe Retion was the danger to the Church. A TTORNEY-GENERAL would vote for the mea !,ure be cause he believed it would be a security for the peace of IL° Church, a n d a great b enef i t :to the pu b lic. His Hon. and Learned Friend had been carried away by his zeal, and bad liPpeared rather as an advocate in the cause. Now, he would tot yield to him in affection to the Established Churches of 411 gIsetd and Scotland. He was attached to that Church—he th e bell been b orn in the bosom of the Scottish Church—and felt e r highest respect f or t h e Church of England, because he t e lo ved it was of great advantage to the country ; lie wished io see it enjoy all its rights and privileges, and his great object ,esuPporting that measure was that its security and utility b . `".ght be extended. He was not in favour of the voluntary r ei rinei Ple, and could not see how the resolution before the tn 9use could be pl ace d on t h e same f oot i ng. I n great towns it F..Ain be of great benefit, but in remote districts, unless reli u. In were provided by the State, he was afraid great -gtle rance would prevail. He allowed that there ought to be ni Established Church, and that provision should be made for ei ainte ining the Church, and for the decent performance of reli ens worship ; but the question was, whether the present Veil) had proved satisfactory in that point of view. In his 11 ° 4 411 ", it was totally inefficient, and a change of the law was 111 -ess arY• His Hon. and e' rued Friend began by taunting thetebers on his side of the House with inconsistency. Hu pi eu ght he would have acted a more consistent part had he ' e ll e e cod at t h ose s i tting at h i s r i g h t h an d on t h e same bench, considered whether they were altogether free from incon citielleies as regarded the Church, or the Temporalities o f t h e t arch. The Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) had ch eere d hi s tee • %• and Le arne d F r i en d ver y l o udly, and h e was , therefore, - ,, 11 ! to kno w h ow lie would maintain his con s i s t ency b y u ta e ng the Resolution, when it was remembered what part he making alterations in the Temporalities of th e I r i s h r. t s -u i rc h ? His' Hon. and Learned Friend said that land was tic, to Ch urc h- rates b y l aw . Il e diff e r e d w i t h hi m entirely ° nthat point. What the Right lion. Baronet, th e M em b er " Tan worth said with respect to Scotland was correct. The re l'air of Ch urches and glcbe.houses, or manses, as they were ciWed i held n Scotland, w as c hargeable on the l an . d.. Land ther e was be i:4)11 condition that the Churches and glebe-houses should I, tnd ' s, V.t in repair out of that land, exactly in the way that some t4i, ' it ? England were held on the condition a keeping R tee niges in _repair._ Church -rates in England were to the Committee to , - on a different footing ; they were a personal tax. It Gould he neither instructive nor amusing ,, rates, i n a l ly enter into an investigation of the origin But there could be no doubt that i the were divided into four CinhoufrethheessewCerhenroerlig t'ePaired out of the tithes. The tithes to the repair of the Churches. Portions, one of which was When the Church threw merely a personal ob oafprp this il burden did not appear. But es were it Ras clear that the Church-rates tgation. They were exactly like the Poor-rates, which, by were . imposed upon the tile statute cf the 434 of Elizabeth, Per,onal estate ; although that being found inconvenient, they Were almost in all cases levied on. the land. Th at they were Co a.! been determined in 183 by the highest E cc l esiastical • oart in England. It i was not just, therefore,. that those should l taxed to pay them w lo . had no interest in the application. T their origin they were equal ; for , then all men entertained tl 'e same religious creed. it was unjust to the But nou,. when there was so great 4t l ,'' • t of opinions in matters of religion, worship, they ''assreletnYers to be taxed to support our places of 1 analogy w iat -1 There was no Itaving to support t.le.r o . e ''er between Church-rates and tithes. Tithes were a burden e dge land ; th ey were not a tax or the tithes were put up to auction separately , . • and the pur an impost. The land • er of the tithes for the ~lliaser of the land was only a receiver (Ithe-ovrner. The inequality which arose from the existence of different religious opinionsabsolutelyintolerable. would render Church-rates more end More odious ; and, in some cases, was especially It %las the principle, and not the amoun i % which friend the Member for liected to. His Hon. and Learned . which they payment of 44tingdon said he knew of cases thousand pounds. Ihree or four pounds levied as Chur i c n h:rates had been resisted I,IL, Cpur . t of Law at an expense of several , . `s hersfe of repugnance became the repair of Churches stronger eves) day, and if "rat ottno.de were not provided for . ti lt . k „ •Y would, ere long, see those it as on that account - * vet►L • w Churches in utter ruin. Such that , it Lie strongly deprecated,. and 1- 1 0 , 'le he the plan of his her for Exeter thought Right Hon. Friend. His that - Ind Learned Friend the Mem dlat th ud 't law might be made more stringent h on those who "li ned . to the Church-rates. st _, . pay . law might be made Friend leased, • th e : flok. ent as his Honourable . r at andes. - ted to. Let the refusal be Learned Te p 1 1 , 5 , 1 rnik irt would not be submit 1 ) , t e It f eiony without benefit b of ld remain unpaid. As clergy, let the punishment to , t ` lB l mr tation, the Church-rates would th e -vbr aF ellino. parishes to levy a d Friend the Member Church-rate, he utterly denied f er , Rat entent of his Hon, and pi e ...rter on That point. When L rate Court to compel a earne had been imposed ap ei4tril(4._4l might be made to an Ecclesiastical of Kinrr's Bench 4 h 4- But there was no lel de'Of compelling tv oll a i r a 'eal to levy . a Church-rate. The Court • . 4 Iwugh at his Hon. and Learned Friend if he ;plied for A mandamus might he 4,4l2:olreenius for such a purpose. A tiett)d for the payment of a Poor-rate, or for the payment of d on the Church,rate. /3 t cbte to an individual, and fig tai ith reference to the repairs se o c f ur C e hurches, there was no h it lesol compelling the parishes levyto mey a Church -rate. In d for the refusal of a Pkri , , t , ( 'lnr : t times, there was no eith ...4 to it.i:ipose tithes. It could not be compelled to . do . so, That he maintained . ; kticCvt: by Civil or by ecclesiastical law. t o be challenged the Hon. and Learned Civilian opposite se u d h pi taL ,. p an say ow suc could b . e aecom aa "'" h a n ol) j e ct There were no means of . . , th e those who accomplishingz.- it. Now, itt 1 nu here were constantly multiplying of Learned Friend iii• ' lt? `' t° pay Church-rates, it was clear that there must be pa l. alteration in the law. His Hon. and . "' l il should be made more stringent. hints It h b ,.. e ieinbe r for Tamworth last night threw someout np The Right Honour issenters ' :---4t makin g a distinction, in the matter between also about Th-rlolembers of the Church of England ; €o,l„ing a difference between town and country parishes. whom he always a ting from the Right Honourable Baronet, . , 4,. felt the greatest respect, he was astonih o c r id to hear lent impracticable suggestions. It was to provide a perma oletnrt system to be applicable to that which was varying i) not work, k 4 • It was to construct machinery which wou - ' every for 11(1 which would be wholly inapplicable to the purpose What NII„, hic it was intended. 'What, then, was to he done? ashlggesed in 1834 by Lord Althorp, when the Noble l ,Ta)rd opposite, the Member for South Lancashire, was a con_ 1 ter of the Cabinet ; although what share he had in the it vv. ( action of the plan he (the Attorney_ General) did 1 We re was something in that plan which, neverh Lord ,; were the only instance of a public measure in w h e liked.nn lc in his `J Thorp had exhibited any thing like thimble-riggery r: : ‘ 4 tr4cter. —( Hear, haar.) It was proposed by that measure i a a the Church -rates should be charged on the English the ihtax. The object of that proposition %vas to reconcil .Dissentera of England, Scotland, and Ireland, to a mea t :,_ by which they would be apparently relieved. But wa y i ° , ' '..1 at proposition exactly the same thing as proposing to pay , he m ag e position out of the Consolidated Fund ? And was it n . o ,',lttifl ered as affurdina• a solid grou omplaint by the DB ata- - at bs,r! of England, Scotland, and Ireland ? His constituents 4,111.1 'burghrevoltedat 't for they were taxed not only for the_ 1 , th e r'tli airs of the English churches, but he was sorry to say for an Si 4 1 port of the Nlinisters. In England the grievance was 1 1 6 4 , 4 , 1 " 4 felt. In Ireland it was felt still more sensibly ; for the %,e'', vere also subject to the vestry cess and other rates. It . th:eut intended generally by the Dissenters that to tax them for wer% ?portp of the Ministers of another Church while . they elv:. iject to the expense of supportin g the Ministers of . their 1 1 , e wi a; unjust. lie, for one, might not have been sorry if the 145% aa he alluded to had been carried into effect, if it had wiill •eonsidered conciliatory ill its character. But ,:kt en lie found that it was not so -- be found that, in 1C:r421 o. f 'being a measure of peace, whenwould turn out a mea -1,:v11 . e xasperation, he could no longer give it his support. 01 evident now, however, that the law on the subject Vas.,ast be changed, and that being the case, he knew of no aa that promised to be so advantageous as the plan now pro m° sad by his Majesty's Government. Into the financial part of pro 1i plan he would not enter, furthe r than to express his convict that the result would be still more favourable than had h e y of the and we ticipat lling ed o by t hi on. F r i en d . et llo n . Instead, how f n his s Right lion. point, h e would refer to the admission 114, , and Learned Member for Bassetlaw, who had more practical experience than he had; and who said 1,/, 111 4 ( il no doubt that the produce of the improved leases 11 _ be t least equal to that anticipated by the Right Hon. 1111: i=zliancellor of the Exchequer. As to the calculations of er e 1 'Ott Hon. Member for Tarriworth, he was convinced that th e _ . un n g they would be proved utterly fallacious. Supposing, ti,rl, upon the authority of the lion. and Learned Member ke„l:,iaeßs.etlaw, that a fund would be produced sufficient for the 14 4 1 r% a purpose, be would ask if the manner in which that tie w ere to be raised would do injury to any one? It could iL " in j ur y to tho Bi,hops. It n be uchb 'le Bishops should b - of their „ I' i 4 : t "ral detit,s inste7lnloy?d solely in the discharge. task of rums leases and being perplexed with the k ter that concluding bargains about the Church , occupation was not befitting a Bishop. Sup ,rd Chancellor, the Lord Chief Justice of the ng's Bench, the Lord Chief Justice of the Court Pleas, and the Chief Baron of the Exchequer, in ,neir judicial salaries, had estates from which their in -nes were derived, would it not be better, instead of involv iing those dignified individuals in all the embarrassments and contests in which the mansgernent of such estates must ne cessarily involve them, to hand the estates over to Com missioners who would manage them, and pay the proceeds to those who were entitled to them ?—( Hear, hear.) There was a case in point which proved this. To the office of Master of the Rolls an estate was formerly attached; and his Honour had all the annoyance of letting land upon leases, of renewin g leases on fines, &c. This was found so incon venient, that at length the estate was made over to trustees, and the Master of the Rolls now received a fixed salary. There was no reason, therefore, to fear that the Bishops would be at all sufferers by being relieved from the embar rassment of managing the Church lands. They would not be deprived of the estates—they would only be exonerated from the trouble of managing them. Who would say that that could occasion them the slightest inconvenience ? It would give them more time fur the due discharge of their episcopal functions ; fur the fulfilment of all their pastoral duties. His Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for Exeter then came to the case of the lessees of Church-lands ; and expressed great compassion for the state into which he said the proposed measure would throw them. He (the Attorney-General) had not yet heard a syllable of complaint from the lessees. On the contrary, all the accounts which he had received repre sented the lessees as exceedingly well pleased with the propo sition.—( A laugh.) The worst tenure of land was that of Church -property. In his time he (the Attorney-General) had busied himself in endeavouring to reform the tenures of land. He had been specially anxious that copyhold tenures should be improved. Why ? Because they resembled the tenures of Church property. They were renewable on the payment of fines, which fines were estimated by the improve ments which had been made by the tenants. This of course prevented improvement; for who would plant a tree, or build a house, when the only result would be that the fine on the re newal of his tenure would be increased ? So it was with the tenure of Church property. The only consequence of improve ment of Church lands was, that the fines or, the renewal of leases were increased. This gave rise to the proverb in Sussex, " that the oak was too noble a tree to grow on servile land ;" the real meaning of which was, that no one would plant such a tree on copyhold or Church land; as, instead of deriving any advantage from it, it would merely give a pretence for an in crease of fine, on the renewal of his tenure or lease. But it was said that the adoption of this resolution would inflict a great hardship upon the lessees. Was it not known that the one half of Londou was built on Church lands? But there were particular Acts of Parliament with regard to the build ing of this town on the lands of the Bishop of London and the Dean of St. Paul's, which made, perhaps, more advan tageous terms to the lessees. He contended that the les sees must rejoice at the prospect of this resolution being carried into effect, because they were now in a state of great uncertainty. One thing to be considered was the fact that the difficulty of effecting the renewal of leases was becoming greater every year; and the Hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. G. H. Vernon) agreed to that proposition. He allowed the deficiency of the means of religious instruction in the country, which he deeply regretted to see ; but he b e li eve d th a t a mos t . . improper criterion had been adopted in respect to the question of new endowments. lie believed that in Cheshire, where it was supposed there was a deplorable insufficiency of places of worship, there were numerous chapels and places of worship where persons might go and worship their God without there being any call for fresh endowments. But the question which they were called upon to consider was, whether the Church could he benefited and its interest most promoted by fresh endowments, or increasing the utility of those which now existed ? For his own part, he should say that it would b e monstrous to create new endowments when it was a no torious fact that so many Churches were going to ruin and falling into decay. Therefore, unless he found that some other fund could be devised by which Churches could be repaired and the means of religious worship increased, not only in great towns but through the country generally, it would be found ere long that the most lamentable conse quences must ensue. Supply this fund in the cases of pa rishes which were now endowed, and then see how they would extend the means of religious instruction. He allowed the great importance of this branch of the question, and lie should be glad indeed to assist in any scheme by which re ligious instruction could be diffused throughout the land. On the samu principle that education should be taken care of by the State, so should religious instruction be supported and maintained ; and he should be rejoiced to see this prin ciple carried out in England, in Scotland, and in Ireland. But it seemed to him better to do good in supplying the means to do away with Church-rates in the first instance ; and he looked forward to the happy effects of this healing measure, now that Church-rates were to be abolished, and the fabric of the Church, and the decent performance of re ligious worship, were to be derived from another fund ; and he hoped that the cause of discontent on the part of the Dis senters would be done away with, and that Churchmen and Dissenters would henceforth become united in brotherly love. It seemed to him that the most salutary effects might be an ticipated from the adoption of the proposal now made ; and do not let Hon. Members refrain from doing justice in this case, because they are afraid of some possible ulterior de mand. Let them do what was just, and not shrink from re sisting that which was unreasonable, whenever such a demand might be made. He would ask Hon. Gentlemen opposite, would they be disposed to adopt the sentiments of all those who took the part of the Established Church ? Would they answer for, and hold themselves responsible for the opinions or proceedings of every dignitary of the Church ?—(Hear.) Had they read the visitation charge of the Right Rev. the Lord Bishop of Exeter ?—( Hear, hear.) Did they approve of the assertion made by that Lord Bishop, when he stated that his Majesty's attorney-General had been very remiss in not prosecuting libellous publications?—(Cheers.) He must say, that of all the publications which had ever come before him, that same visitation charge of the Right Rev. the Lord Bishop of Exeter was the most libellous.—( Cries of " Hear," and cheers, from the Ministerial benches.) If, indeed, he • were disposed to file an ex otficio information, he should be disposed to file one against the Right Reverend the Lord Bishop of Exeter.--( Cheers.) Since he had held office he had not been called upon to file a single ex officio information, and he did not believe that the circumstance of his having re frained from the exercise of that power had been prejudicial to the public ; nor did he apprehend that be should be blamed for not having prosecuted the Lord Bishop of Exeter. He would leave it to those who had read the charge to judge of its character, not thinking that they would be convinced or con verted by it, and believing that it would not produce any con siderable sensation (as we understood). But did Hon. Gen tlemen think it was decent to say that an Act which had passed the Legislature, such as that of the Dissenters' Marriages Bill, was an Act which no sane man would have had the hardihood to propose ? Was it decent to accuse a considerable part of that House of treachery, aggravated by perjury ? Did they say that it was decent to charge his Majesty's Ministers with seeking the support of an Infidel faction? These were only a few specimens of the statements contained in the publication to which he had called the attention of the House. He respected the high talents and acquirements, but he condemned the sentiments, of the Right Rev. Prelate, and above all he condemned them the more strongly, looking to the occasion upon which they were made. And do not let Hon. Gentlemen draw conclusions from the particular statements of any individual, however high his station might be. He had now only one more observation to make to allay the apprehension which had been excited as to the censure of posterity. Now he be lieved that posterity, so far from condemning, would applaud their conduct in making the attempt to put an end to an un just impost. Our forefathers never would have laid oil such an impost ; and nothing could be more unjust than to consider the evil as one emanating from the wisdom of our ancestors. The resolution had his unqualified sanction and support; and he trusted that when the Bill to be founded on this resolution was understood, and when those misrepresenta tions which had overspread the measure should be removed, and the Bill should be submitted to the good sense of the country, its true character would be made apparent.—( Hear.) Ile trusted that from the admission of this proposed measure, peace and concord would follow, and that all animosities would cease as between Churchmen and Dissenters.—( Cheers.) Mr. HARCOURT VERNON said a few words in expla nation, the tenor of which did not reach us. Mr. LAW said that the question had been debated as if it were a plan ripe for adoption, however fatal it would be if carried into execution, yet be had reason to believe it would never be accomplished—( Hear and " Oh I")—nay, he thought that those Hon. Members who advocated it so strenuously on the other side of the House, nevertheless did so in despair of its passing. —(Loud cries of " Oh," and " hear.") Was he to learn by those cheers that a ray of hope still existed on 'the part of the Government, that at some future time, and in a modified shape, they would be able to carry the mea sure ?—( Hear.) He would assume, that even the calcula tions made on the other side were correct ; but this was no ground - for the abolition of Church-rates—for he would first ask, if the principle of the Bill were just, were the means of carrying it out safe. or did they not involve results fatal to the ° Church Establishment ? On the conviction that the measure would be fatal to the Establishment, he would rest his opposition to it.—(Hear.) It would seem that the rapid pro gress the Irish Appropriation Clausebad made in securing the disgust of the Protestants of the empire, had induced Minis ter; to change the field of battle, but to direct their attack still on the Chur ch - Establishment. He contended that the mea sure involved the voluntary principle. If the Dissenters scrupled to pay the present rates they would equally scruple to pay any other charge for the maintenance o f the Establish ment.—(-Hear. ) He would say also that those who had been bred up as inembers of the Church, ought not to be the first to lay their spoiling and sacrilegious hands on its property, but whatever doubt there was as to the passing of the measure in that House, he had no doubt as to how it would be treated elsewhere. —( Hear.) Was it from any disrespect, or from his exalted respect, that he hoped the torrent would be stopped there ?—( Hear, hear.) It was because he knew it to be an assembly of Gentlemen and hereditary Noblemen. He would be glad to support any measure whi c h cou ld conc il i a t e the feelings or the religious scruples of the Dissenters, provided lie could preserve the Chur c h at t h e same time.—( Hear.) would He ask; also, in whom was 4 . be trust of the Ecclesiasti cal revenues to be now reposed ? The Bishops who had been designated trustees had renounced this trust, and had given the most unequivocal demonstration that they would not be parties to it. 7--( Hear, bear.) The Hon. and Learned Gen tleman then continued to say that Government would doubtless have the su pp or t o f t h e representatives of the sister island , but' where w ou ld i t h e w i t h out t h em ?—( Hear, hear.) That House lie contended, had the power to i ncrease the value of Char& property, but cou ld not alienate any portion of it. If there THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 15, .1r137. was a surplus, it cught to be applicable to the pu•poses of spi ritual instruction. Mr. CAYL EY, though concurring in the propriety of re lieving the Dissenters from the burdens of Church -rate, he must oppose the Resolution before the House. That Resolution in volved three principles. The last of these principles was one of extortion from the lessees. The Attorney-General had said that no complaints had been made by the lessees. How could they complain before they knew the nature of the measure? The Right Hon. Gentleman who introduced the scheme had looked with one eye to the Dissenters, but he forgot the lessees altogether. He (Mr. Spring Rice) had funds in his hands to save the pockets of the Dissenters, but those funds were taken out of the pockets of the lessees. He (Mr. Cayley) had no confidence in the figures of the Right lion. Gentleman. He was not himself a lessee to the extent of one shilling. He held no Church lands whatever. He was solely guided in the vote he intended to give by his views of the justice of the case. The Hon. Gentleman then went into various statements to show that the calculations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer were erroneous ; and proceeded to contend that the lessees, so far from gaining, would be losers to zt very great extent by th e proposed scheme. It had been asked by the Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter, whether this was to be a compulsory mea sure. If it were not injurious to the lessee there would be no necessity for making it compulsory. The lion. Member here read a passage from the Report of the Real Property Commis sioners, illustrative of the rights of Church lessees. He asked, whether it was likely that Resolutions such as these could pass? If Ministers possessed the power once poisessed by Mr. Pitt,they could not effect the passing of these Resolutions hi their present shape. He did not think the Dissenters would receive the boon on those conditions. He did not think that those high-minded men who would not submit to injustice themselves, will acquiesce in its infliction on others. However, I shall vote for the Re solutions in their present stage.—(Laughter and ironical cheers from the Opposition.) As to the second principle, if some plan could be devised of so arranging between leasehold and freehold property in the Church lands as to inflict no posi tive injustice on any party, he would willingly vote for that. Therefore, while he approved of part of the plan of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, he would take another opportunity of protesting against the principle embodied in the remaining Re solutions. Mr. BENETT said that the subject was one of vital im portance, not only to the Church but to the country. He yielded to no Gentleman in that House in a desire to uphold the Church, or to secure an efficient provision fur the mainte nance and repair of its edifices, but he did not think the Reso- lutions mow before the House likely to mar that, their com mon object. After the discussion in thi s H ouse — a f ter the feeling excited on this subject through the country, it is evi dent that the collection of the rate will now be far more diffi cult than before. The Honourable Member for Exeter, though he had displayed much eloquence, had certainly brought for ' ward very little new on this subject. It was stated that there were in this country two millions of persons in vain thirs ting for spiritual accommodation, and who had a prior claim on any increase of the value of Church property that might be effected. But might we not point to other means of supplying this deficiency ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) For in stance might we not look for that purpose to the tenths and first fruits, which by a new valuation would be considerably raised in va7ue. He was of opinion that the plan now pro posed would confer the greatest possible good on the Church of this country. Mr. PEMBERTON could not agree with the Hon. Mem ber for Wiltshire. He was of opinion that the Dissenters were liable to the payment of Church-rates by a stronger claim than that of custom. The Hon. Gentleman opposite had stated, that there was no legal right to Church-rates ; and he stated his legal reputation on the fact. Now he would oppose an authority to that opinion from the other side of the House, from a high judicial character, the Hon. Mem ber for the Tower Hamlet s— (Hear, hear) when the lion. Member was speaking coolly and deliberately in his character as a judge. This is no House of Commons opinion. It was given at a time when he bad no possible motive to state the law incorrectly but every possible mo tive to state it without prejudice or bias.—[The Hon. Member here read an extract from a charge given b 3 the Honourable Member for the Tower Hamlets, which contained the admission that Church-rates had been an immemorial charge on the land and, as we understood, had acquired a sort of prescriptive legality, and that he saw nothing in the case before him to afford grounds for the ex emption of the land from the charge.] Here the lion. Mem ber admitted the moral obligation of paying the Church-rates. Ile (Mr. Pemberton) contended that the arguments urged against the Church-rates were equally applicable against Tithes. As for the plan introduced by Lord Althorp in i 1834, he bad never yet heard, until the Right Hon. Gentle- mon opposite rose, that plan designated the ‘• thiniblerigging" one.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman held a situation under Government at that time, and it is wonderful that no conscientious scruple induced him to exclaim against the proposed measure at that time. Dr. LUSHINGTON—I had not a scat in the House of Commons at the time. Mr. PEMBERTON—Then we are to attribute the Hon. Gentleman's silence to the unfortunate circumstance of his failure at Dudley.—(Laughter.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman proceeded to state that though the arguments of the supporters of the present measure were valid, still it was liable to the same objections as a charge on the Conso lidated Fund. For his own part, with respect to the amount, 250,0001., it appeared a strange sort of thing to him (Mr. Pemberton) if it could be conjured into the pockets of one party without being conjured out of the pockets of another, without, indeed, the conjuring party receiving part of the advantage.—( Hear, h e ar.) Church-rates had been sanc tioned and acknowledged through 300 successive years. Would Ministers now tell the House that there was a flaw in the title conveying Church -rates, and strike out that title ? There was a point which had been lost sight of by the Speakers in favour of the present measure, and which was identified with the alleged precedent of 1794) he alluded to the caution then used in reference to the rights of property which were taken into account.—( Hear.) Here buildings may be raised, mines sunk, but no attention was paid to the claims and interests of the parties so acting. No, only the rent charge was looked to.—( Hear.) Look to the Irish Church Temporalities Bill—did the Legislature, with res pect to it, prevent the Bishops from renewing a single lease ? No, the Act was founded on the recognition of that very prin. ciple.—( Hear.) The Commissioners under that measure ware compelled to renew every lease.—( Hear.) But that was now declared illegal. He believed that. the Church of England was daily and hourly growing more identifi.Al the feelings of the great bulk of the people of England, and still more was their attachment strengthened to the paths pro mulgated by it.—(Hear.) Now was the time for the friends of the Church Establishment to stand forth; let them assert their rights, and they will prevail; if they now surrender, they do so for ever.—( Hear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose and said—.lt has been said, and said upon high authority, and urged, as I shall presently show, by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir Robert Peel) him self, that this is a question which demands the interposition of the Legislature.—( Cheers.) It is said by those who advo cate the cause of the Church, that the law in its present state is unsatisfactory, and that unless the law is made more capable of execution, we shall soon see a number of the churches fall ing into ruins. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman who has jest sat down, among others, has objectelioChtirch:rates, and has said that he does not wish to retain them ; and yet when we propose, on our part, merely to agree to a resolution which shall enable us to place a plan before the House in the shape of a Bill, the Right lion. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) and those who support him say, " We allow there are ob jections to Church -rates; we allow the vexation they cause; we allow the heart-burnings ; we allow the inefficiency ; we do not deny any one of these things ; we only say that we will not permit you to bring a Bill into this House in order to enable you to explain your plaa to the House."—( Loud cheers, and cries of " Oh, oh.") The resolu tion proposed will lead to this step ; we only ask the House to bring in a Bill founded upon that resolution. The Bill of course will be regularly printed ; it will wait for some time ; it will be the subject of further discussion ; and it may con tain many of those provisions which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman says will be absolutely necessary, and of which he has chosen to suppose the absence ; and because be has not seen the Bill, he will not allow us to bring it in, but supposes it will contain all the defects which he chooses to inngine.— ( Cheers.) But upon the other point Hoa. Gentlemen op posite leave us equally in doubt. This Bill proposes to give a substitute for Church -rates, and we were told yesterday by a Right lion. Gentleman that if any fund can be obtained for this purpose, there in e millions in want of spiritud instruc tion, and that to provide this spiritual instruction those funds ought t., be devoted. But what say the Hon. and Ldarned Members for Exeter and Ripon ? They say that we ought not to change the tenure ; and that it would be spoliation. not indeed of the Church, but of the lessees, and that it would be better to allow things to remain as they are. But we have a right to ask to be enlightened on some of these points.—(Cheers.) If you say that the present state of Church-rates is unsatisfactory, will you allow us to propose a substitute ? If you like not this plan With res;)cct to Church-rates, either say that you will devote the surplus fund to the supply of instruction to the people, or that )du will leave the lessees on their present footing. Are we to have no answer on these points, but merely general objec tions upon every possible ground, and a general negative of the resolution, leaving the whole subject as unsettle] as it is now, and with every danger of its remaining unsettl ? The Right Honourable f3aronet (Sir R. l'eel) was some time ago, in the year 1835, so anxious on this point, that when we brought in the Bill for the Regulation of Municipal Corpora tions, he stated " that the subject of Church-rates did not yield to any other in emergency—that it was as far as any question important in the maintenance of social harmony_ that there was not a single question except that of the Irish Church, that pressed for such immediate practical settlement as the question. of Church-rates."—( Loud cheers.) But the Right Honourable Baronet stated further, "that in considera tion of the interests of the Church, for the satisfaction of a large body of the public, for the promotion of subordination and obedience to the law, th e Government ought not to suffer the law respecting Church-r a t es to b e made t h e t h eme o f discus sion at public meetings, and the su bj ect o f angry commen t from parochial martyrs for another twelve months." We have it curred the censure of the Right Honourable Baronet, not only for twelve mouths, but for, as I admit, two years that we have allowed this stute of things to go on; a n d p aroc hi a l mar tyrs to be sacrificed. But when now, at length, we bring in a plan, what is the result ? The Right Honourable Baronet (Sir R. Peel) does not tell the House that our scheme is in- judicious: and that he has another to propose, buihe—th;o;s out certain suggestions as to the separation of Dissenters and Church:nen ; and he is willing to make this distinction, that Dissenters in towns should not be obliged to pay, but that Dissenters in the Country should be obliged to pay Church rttes ; in other wyrds ; tip% the landed interest should be still burdened with the payment of Church -rates, but that the towns should be relieved. This was the suggestion of the Right Hon. Baronet. But it may be collected easily from these expressions that the object is to leave the question in such a state that we shall not be able to bring in this Bill or any other, and that the question shall be left for future agita tion and discontent. Before I proceed to other parts of the question on which the Right Hon. Baronet addressed the Committee on a former evening, I must allude to one point on which the Right Hon. Baronet did me the honour to quote, among others, what I said in this House. The Right Hon. Baronet introduced it in that part of his argument in which he endeavoured to show that this plan is contrary to the prin ciples of sound policy and justice. If the Right Honourable Baronet has shown that this plan is contrary to the princi ples of justice and sound peliey—if it can be shown that it is inconsistent, as the Honourable and Learned Gentleman has said, with the nature of a Church Establishment, of course I must admit that the plan is not fit to be adopted by this house, and that all matters of calculation of profit and advan tage must sink at once before this paramount objection. But in quoting what I said in this House—and I have no doubt but that the Right Hon. Baronet has quoted fairly what was re ported—be hardly gave that sense to what I said, which, on some reflection, lam sure he will be induced to give. The Right lion. Baronet supposed me to have laid down this pro position—" That it is absolutely essential to a Church Esta blishment that the repairs of the Church shall be defrayed either out of the general taxes, or by seine special tax levied on the public for that purpose." That proposition, in the first olace, is contrary to what I have myself supported respecting Ireland. It is contrary to the declarations of my Noble Friend on the opposite bench (Lord Stanley). But not only is it contrary to his declarations, but it is contrary to the declara tions of the Right Hon. Gentlemen the Members for the Uni versities of Cambridge and Dublin. The Right Hon. Gen tleman the Member for the University of Dublin had main tained with us the principle of this Bill with respect to Ire land. We have been reminded to-night of the united Church of England and Ireland, because it suits the purposes of the night. That Right Hon. Gentleman admitted that, on the part of the United Church, it was fit that Church-cess should be altogether abolished ; and the Right lion. Gentleman also said that there was this difference between Church-cess and Tithes, that the Tithes depended on the Statutes, and the Church-cess might be refused by the victims. Now, I cannot be supposed with respect to a Church Establishment to go the length of the Right lion. Gentleman and the others on his side of the House; but I must ask, does it stand to reason, or can any one presume, that if the Church had three, or four, or five millions, in addition to its present endowment, that still it would be necessary, for the purpose of a Church Establishment, that there should be a special tax to meet the expenses of the repairs of the fabric of the Church ? This was the meaning which lion. Gentlemen opposite attempted to fix on what I had said. lam ready, however, to declare the full extent of what I really did say. What I intended to say was this, that " it was the duty tsi the State, in maintain ing a Church Establishment, to provide for the repairs of that Church." And I said, moreover, with respect to the Established Church of Erigland, " that if Church-rates were to be abolished, and the repairs of the Church were to be pro vided for out of the public funds, I did not think that these funds could be provided out of the revenues of the Church." This was my o”inion on the subject, it was my opinion respecting a question of fact, and I urged it in opposition to what was continually pressed upon me by man✓ Dissenters in this House, and when the Hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Hume) stated that the revenues of the Deans and Chapters were sufficient to provide a substitute for Church-rates. I said, in opposition to that proposition, that I thought that those revcnus were not sufficient. But I added that any surplus that might be obtained by diminishing the expenses of Bishops, Deans, and Chapters should be and might properly be applied to the increase of small livings and the augmentation of spiritual instruction, and that I thought there would not he a sufficient surplus as a substitute for Church-rates. But is there anything to prevent me changing my opinion if I find that greater sums can be obtained from an improved mode of collecting the property of the Church --when I find that there is sufficient for all the objects of the Church, giving to the Church that revenue which is neces sary for its Bishops, giving that revenue which is .necessary for Deans and Chapters, and giving three millions to the paro chial clergy—when I find, upon further and more correct in quiry, that this is the case, is there any thing inconsistent in my changing my opinion ?—( Cheets from the Ministerial side of the [louse.) Now I have begun on this part of the subject, I will argue a little further as to what the Church Commissioners propose with respect to that surplus of 130,0001. What I say is this ; the surplus obtained, supposieg it to be obtained, from this revenue of Church lands is to secure peace and harmony in the country by the abolition of Church-rates. The Commis sioners say that this sum of 130,0001. a year may be given to the promotion of religious instruction in the country. But it "was argued by the lion. Member for Weymouth (Mr. F Buxton), who spoke last night, that there were matters of more pressing urgency which demanded a greater supply from the funds of the Church. The Commissioners say we think that the sums we propose coull be given to the maintenance of these sees ; and they recommend that not less than 15,000/. a year should be given to the Archbishop of Canterbury, that not less than 10,000/. a year should be given to the Bishop of London, and they think that these sums should be given for tile sake of supporting the dignity of the Church and for the maintenance of the Hierarchy. Th e y wou ld reserve no greater surplus to supply the spiritual demands of the people. The. Commissioners calculate the probable extent of the fund appli cable to the purpose of increasing the provision for the parochial clergy at not less than 30,000/. ; and they say Tile alterations which we have proposed, with respect both to the arrangement of dioceses and the constitution of Deans and Chapters, appear to us to render it expedient that a change should be made in the exercise of the patronage which is now vested in the last-mentioned bodies. We recorn- mend that such regulations should be adopted as may leave it in the power of Deans and Chapters, under certain restric tions, to give preferment to the members of their own body, and to the Minor Canons, who may reasonably look to them for reward after a certain period of service; and that where a presentation to any benefice in their gift is not required for these purposes, it should pass, in some cases, to the Crown, and in others to the Bishop of the diocese, in which either the cathedral or the benefice may be respectively si tuate." I think, Sir, I have shown that with respect to the matter of the spiritual demands of what I am told are two millions of the people, though the Church Commissioners thought it right to provide for that, yet, in the first place, they. did not think it right to trench on what was due to the dignity of the hierarchy of this country ; and in the second place, they did not think it right to treuch on what was due to the patron age of the Crown and of the Bishops and the expectations of the clergy. Why, if this was the opinion of the Church Commissioners, and I humbly bowed to their opinion-- Cheers)—if it was their opinion that the demands for spi ritual instruction were great, but great as they were they should be postponed for the sake of providing what might be considered:a munificent income for the llierarchy—( Cheers) if the Church Commissioners say this, is it not to be per mitted to us, simple as we arc—(A laugh)—while we admit that the spiritual demands for the instruction of these unin structed millions are great, also to feel that the demands which are made on us for the establishment of religious peace arc of a most urgent description, and that we are as fully entitled to provide for that object as the Chur c h C omm i ss i oner s were en- titled to provide for the dignity of the hierarchy and the pa tronage of the clergy ? But I venture to say with regard to the justice of the principle, we have left, and propose to leave, everything that is thought necessary to be provided for the im mediate wants of the Church: we have left about three mil- lions and a half of the revenues of the Church to be disposed of in the manner, as to income, which the heads of the Church thought necessary. But if a new income is to be provided arc _we not to avail ourselves of dist new income to provide against that which proclaims itself aloud as aigrievance to the State, whether or not it be a grievance to the Dissenters? • Having spoken of this preliminary objection on a point of principle, I Kill now speak of the entire of the plan, as I think it will affect the various interests of the Church; and fearful as I am of detaining and fatiguing the House, I must beg to be allowed to advert to the general principle on which I consider the proposed Bill to have been framed. In a country like this, where there is an Established Church, but where there is likewise established, as was very properly said by Lord Mans ti tld, freedom for the Dissenter," it i;right, in my opinion, in the first place, to take care that the revenues of the Church should be kept as clear as possible from bringing the clergy into collision and quarrel with those who have to make the payments ; and with respect to the Dissenter, it was right to give him every opportunity of carrying on his religious wor ship without being excited to hostile feelings against the Es tablishment. I say that the furtherance of those principles is essential fur the interests of the Church and these of the Dis senter alike. These are principles which tend to make the Church secure, and tend to make the Dissenter free : these are principles which tend to make bofh the Church and the Dissenter unite in- the promotion of the Christian and not interrupt their labours in this regard by unseemly quarrels and disturbances. Now, my Honourable Friend the Member for Oxford will tell me whether (I don't expect him to agree to the plan I propose)—but he will tell me whether there is anything wrong, or destruc tive, or hostile to religion, in entertaining such a project. With these objects in view, it was our care last year to endeavour to make such a settlement of tithes as would leave the clergyman no longer to dispute his income with the farmers or occup i ers, b ut i t wou ld g i ve hi m t h e opportunity of settling fairly with the occupiers of land. With the same view an attempt was made to allow the Dissenter to register. the birth of his child, or to perform the marriage ceremony in his own chapel, without being compelled to have recourse to the Church. Those Bills were both in furtherance of this object ; and in furtherance of the same object is the measure we now propose, which, by providing for the repair of the Churches in a different manner, will prevent those assemblies and vestries throughout the country where the Dissenter attacks the Church. where the Dissenter is supported by the Church man who wishes to save his money, and where, in the first place, angry feelings are excited, and, in the second place, the Church is too frequently left without the means of repair. Let it not be said that this is only the case in those town parishes in which great contests have arisen. I find in a pamphlet which maintains a principle very different from that of this Bill, which maintains that the law ought to be streagthene3, this statement made by an Archdeacon fully qualified to speak to that point.—( Hear.) (The Noble Lord here read a passage from the pamphlet, which de scribed the difficulties experienced in certain ru ral districts in attempts to get vestries to make Church rates.) To the same effect I have a letter, in which the writer states, that though persons in the country are ready to sign petitions against the abolition of Church -rates, yet the Churches are in so bad a state of repair that the gentry In the neighbourhood dread having to visit them in the winter season. bow come !go that portion of the speech pf the Right Ann, Baronet to which I shall advert but shortly—l mean that part of his speech in which he asserted that this measure would fail as regarded the financial calculations on which it was founded. I shall leave the task of replying more fully to those objec tions to my Right Hon. Friend who proposed the plan ; but I may be allowed to say the statements of the Right Hon. Baro net did not give me much reason to doubt the soundness of my Right Hon. Friend's calculations. One statement of the Right Honourable Baronet, on which he laid considerab!e stress was that an increased sum of 100,0001. would be required for the management of this property ; but he forgot that the property is not without an expense for management at present; the number of clerks and other officers now em ployed rendered the expense probably much greater at pre sent than it would be under the proposed Bills. In the see of Durham alone the expense of management is 2,000/ a year, so that instead of a large charge on that account, ac cording to the reckoning of the Right Hon. Baronet, there is every probability that we shall derive from that source alone a surplus. The Right Hon. Baronet has expressed his doubts of the sum being as great as it has been estimated, because it may not be 24 years' deferred annuity, but an annuity deferred for 30 years. lf, however, 2601. repi esents an annuity deferred for 24 years, it must be a greater sum that represents an an nuity deferred for 30 years.--( Hear.) I know, with respect so the Irish Church Act, that it was stated by my Noble Friend opposite (Lord Stanley) that I/. claimed at the time repre sents what would be al. at the end of 21 years; but if this an nuity came into operation at the end of 2 or 3 years, the IL would represent a sum much less, and if it came into opera tion at the end of a term exceeding 21 years, of course it would represent a sum greater. If the annuity were deferred for only 5 years, the sum a person would advance at pre sent would be greater in proportion to the whale sum. The result of the calculations made was that if it were deferred for thirty years, this sum of 260,000/. would represent, instead of 1,300,0001., 1,986,0001., and instead of a surplus of 250,0001. my Right Hon. Friend would have a surplus of upwards of 300,000/.--( Hear, hear.) I think lam entitled to say after this that we ought not to bow all at once to the Right Hon. Gentleman's authority. Let us rather allow this Bill to be gone into; let the House allow Mr. Finlaison to be heard on the other side; and do not let us conclude at once that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Treasury and Mr. Fin laison all arc wrong in their calculations. Grant these parties a hearing before you decide that their calculations must be altogether wrong. I come now to that part.of the plan which affects the whole measure ; I mean that part which affects the landed property held by the Church lessees. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) said last night, as has been said with a sneer in another place, that he ceuhl not imagine where the surplus, where the " heredifas jams," as he called it, could have been discovered by my Right Honourable Friend. If the Right Honourable G Interim had applied to the Noble Lord sitting next to him (Lord Stanley), he could no doubt have enlightened him on the subject.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord would have recollected having produced a plan to this House by which he informed the House he would realise not less than 3,000,0001. of the value of the Church property in Ireland.—( Cheers. ) But whether that sum was exactly the sum or not, that a considerable sum may be realised by a dif ferent tenure of property I think no man can entertain a doubt. lam really almost ashamed to speak on this point,. after what fell from the Hon. Member for East Retford on the same subject last night. If a man holds property which lie is obliged to surrender at the expiration of ally life, or at the end of seven or thirty years, and if ho can change that holding into a tenure equivalent to a freehold on which be may plant or build as he pleases, there is a nee value created, which is a value to the person who possesses the property, and to the person who occupies it. If it were not so, I really know not what would bet the value of so many pro perties that have been held on mortrnain, and enfranchised. We have a familiar illustration of the argument in the calft of a person who, not having a freehold holding, plants trees,' and on the renewal of his term is obliged to pay for them according to their value when he cuts them down. But the Right Honourable Gentleman put as an especial diffi culty some cases in which a great part of the land may be church land, the rest being the lessee's own property. lam glad to be supplied by the Right Hon. Gentleman with that instance, because it enables me to point out, to a certain extent, what will be the beneficial working of these Bills. Their operation will be to enable a man who has suffered under that disagreeable tenure, part of his house and grounds being his own, and the other part only held under the Church, to make the whole his own,, and thus relieve himself from the possibility of further inconvenience. With respect to the right of obtaining some advantage front the lessee, I do not think that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman or the Right Hon. Gentleman can either of them make out that we arc not entitled to ask some advantage from the lessee. I could state to the House many instances that hive come to my own knowledge in which those leases have fallen in, and in which the Bishop has refused to renew, or in which he has put in a concurrent lease, and the original lease has been altogether destroyed. That right Was exercised by the late Bishop of Ely—(Hear)—and while it exists let no man tell me the les sees have the right of renewal. I have been told on the authority of a solicitor in Durham, with respect to that county, that in 1790 the value of the Church land was equal almost to freehold aroperty ; but in consequence of the difficult terms of renewal which had been enforced, of late years Church land sold for fifteen or 'sixteen years' purchase.— ( Hear.) It is clear that there has been a great change as regards the terms on which these leases are renewed ; and are we not entitled to take advantage of the right of renewal ? But passing on from the lessees, I come to the objection stated to the plan in a petition—a very fair and calm petition, I admit—from the University of Oxford. That petition objects to the situation in _which the measure places the Bishops. We are told that the Bishops at present are in tha enjoyment of property, and according to these Bill.; they may become mere annuitants ; that we arc bound to pro vide for the great interests of religion ; anti that the inde pendence of the Bishops cannot be impaired without danger to those interests themselves. This is certainly a subject well worthy the consideration of the House. Those who la bour for the instruction of the University of Oxford ought to have informed that learned but somewhat tardy University of the nature of the Bill which passed last year. It is -true, be fore the Act I have referred to passed, the Bishops had com mand, without restriction as to leases, of the property of the Church ; and it might be argued, as has been argued, that there is no question. The Bishop of Durham possesses as clear a right to his property as any man of landed property in the kingdom, and we are no more entitled - to inquire what his income is than we have to inquire what is the income of the lay proprietors. This might have been the state of things for merly, but the Act of last year has placed them now upon a dif ferent footing. The Bishop of Durham has been commanded by that Act to transfer the sum of 2,000/. a year to the see of Ripon, and another 11,000/. to the hands of the Church Commis sioners, and then the new Bishop created by this Act is to receive further an annuity of 2,200/. from the Church Com missioners. Now what is the situation of these two Bishops? The one, out of a varying and precarious income, is bound to pay 2,0001. a year to the Church Commissioners; the other is to all intents and purposes an annuitant upon those Corn niiisioners.—(Hear, bear.) The one of these- Bishops is clearly an annuitant ; whilst the other is not exactly in that si tuation which, as regards his own interests, could be said to be a very easy or comfortable one, because it will be observed that if the incomes of the see of Durham were to be de preciated, and fall, through any fortuitous circumstances, to 4,0001., 3.000/, or even 1,0001. a year, the Bishop would still be obliged -to pay over 11,0001. to the Church Com missioners, and 2,000/. a year to the Bishop of Ripon. This being the ease, no one can tell me that this Bishop is in a po sition to have unlimited command over the property in hand, or to exercise, under all circumstances, his own free will and inclination in its disposal ; for he may be obliged, when he would rather not do so, to renew leases which may fall in, under very disadvantageous circumstances, in order to meet this certain, this unvaryine, and imperative a ,nual call.--( Hear, bear.) Say the Bishop's income amounts on an average to 19,0001. a year ; out of this lie has to pay 11,0001., reserving the other 8,000/. for himself But it', instead, of taking the chance of time lives which fall in, by which in one year he might get 22,000/., and in another only 10,000/., we say to him, we will take care that you shall always receive 19,0001., out of which you may with regularity meet the de mand against you of 11,000/. a year, and with as much cer tainty reserve the 8.0031. a year to } ourself—l say that if we wcr2 to do this, so far from doing an injury to this individual, we should be confetring a great benefit upon him, by attaching a greater degree of certainty to his ineonse.—(Cheer:;..) So much with regard to the character of this measure as it re gards the Bishops. With respect to the'management ()folio. , property of the Church, the Commission which we props' a to appoint will consist LI the majority of members of the ' t ra um a , whilst at the same time I admit that the we a ns amt , tlt of t h e landed property. of the Church will be *rottini,y , conducted by tho three lay Commissioners, who via l . be appointed for the pur pose. Two of these CommisT;r..ners will he appointed by the Crown, the other by the Chexeli, Now,, if it had been pro posed to me that, instead or should be appointed by two of time Commissioners time Cluarcla, end one only by the Crown, I should haw been quite ready to listen and accede to that alteration.—( Hear, hear.) DUE ill order to do that it is necessary that we should have the Bill, and that we should go into Committee upon it.--(F/mr, hear.) I repeat that I am quite ready to assent to any al . ...erations in the details of the measure which, on consideration, may be deemed advisable; bat before I can accede to anythi ag of the kind, we must have the Bill in our hands on which we propose to introduce Vers a _ aiterations.—(Ch eer s.) Th e Hon. Membei for Ea;;,lte•: for a assures mu that after having belongalto the Chur e ta Cs .umn t s , sigh I have made an utensil of them Church. I. O n - other hand, m us t ra th er say t h at, the Chorach Cornreass'- 4 , b us ma In an utensil of me.—( Laughter.) We wen's itatas the Commis. sion upoei this subject, in conjuneaioa wit' s Church who form e d p ar t o f i t, w i th:t a Prelates of the .e full desir , and inten tion of listening t o a ll t h e p l asma f oe which they co u ld suggest, w i t h at o e, recorm of the Church rented our attention to the correct; c ' era.s . vish whilst we tli lishment to do so in a sas (so abuses ' in that Estab views and sentiments ofw was Pry -r•al atible as possible with the tte a 1 aye my consent to the propositions which wer; t k, • g '4/ Treed upon, but at the same time I must remark that tlea,„ than mine. And I wile take this a re positions were mole theirs a es in answer to abet le;, / ll am th e what the membes - Member for Weymouth, .of the Churib Cormit»ission know full web, that I said T shgui4 " ie mare have e , in desirous that, we prebend s!lould reeci Ulan 4,0 3 Jl. , mind that nal canon should have here than e-y sur.--(Loud cries of " Hear.") Bat whilst this was my own >pinion, I was willing, neverthe hese, to a3.opt the scheme he the reform of certain abuses whictit was framed by the Commission. I proposed that schema to the House, find Is hen the Hon. Member for Mid (Heist; warned me that by at :ting elms I was ruining.the pro spects of tho Ministry to wl , ich I belong, I told him that, re gardless of consequences, I had adopted that measure, and that I was determin:,ll to t tali) or fall by it, co:waiving the 11,' , 41 i Qta . cf the Athaiuistrati tq, be involved la t,—(Lou:l chee r i n g ) In doing this, are we to be accus.,d a having ul treated the Church Commission ? On the contrary, we s!mwed ourselves ready to experience and to brave some .Voquy if, in concurrence with the heads of the Church we e , ald pass some measure calculated to be of real and rffieint sorsie, t the best interests of the Church.—( Renewed chee log.) It 1 a; been suggested by the lion. Member for Weyermra. :old by other Hon. Gentlemen opposite, that even if we e .n procure the surplus we look to by means of a better ment of Church property, it would he desirable io a.;pi ) it to the increase of the means of spiritual instru.qi...m out the country. lam fully aware of the i►n?,,rt.,nre of the object here alluded to; and I am ready t.) c•me. , rt fo r the adoption of any measure by which the sprevl ot' p;rit,al instruction may be promoted.—(Cheers ) At the sane time, however, I am somewhat in doubt as to the efficiency of any plan which should go no further than to, the building of Churches and the placing of ministers in their palpits.— (Hear, hear.) In addition to this we must have that means of instruction which conveys it from home to liotn?, from door to door, befere we can be said to have made the blessing of that instruction generally available.—(Cheers.) Of the im portance of this instruction I am fully aware, and that large numbers of tho, population throughout the country are now without it lam ready to admit. But at the same time I must say, that the most pressing want which we have to look to just now is the establishment of a feeling of peace and concord between the Church and the people;—(hkar, hear.) My be lief is, that if that feeling of good will were once esta bli s h e d we should not long stand in want of the means of affording spiritual instruction to the whole population of the kingdom.— (Hear, hear.) lam glad when I see this spiritual instruc tion given by the Church, and I likewise rejoice wh en I see i t extened by the Dissenters.—( Hear, hear.) Now, as to the opinion of the Dissenters upon this subject, there art. come who say, "We object to any claim made on behalf of an Established Church for pecuniary support from the general body of the State." With that view of the case, as I have always said, I entirely disagree.—( Hear.) On the other hand there are those who say that they are quite ready to admit . of any proposals for the improved manage me nt of the' afftirs of the Church, as in tithes and so forth, but that being already burdened by heavy expense, they think that the property of the Church is sufficient for all its necessities, and fully adequate amongst the rest to keeping in repair the edifices of the Estab lishment.—( Hear, hear.) In my opinion this positron of the _ . Dissenters is a fair and reasonable one; and I will not forego the passing of a measure which goes to acquiesce in so reasonable a demand, a measure so likely to establish religious peace throughout the country, because I may be taunted with endeavourim. to count the suffrages and sup port of the Dissenters of this country: I have always had the highest respect for the Dissenters of this country, and I do say that, putting aside all political differences which may arise on many subjects between us, in their efforts to promote religions instruction in quarters where it has been most wanted they have been most unremitting, and in the highest degree serviceable ; their efforts have been extended to afford the sublime hope of reiigious inspiration to men heretofore of gro velling intellects, and to create a nobler and more elevated character in men of ludo and wilful pasions. For Betakes like these in the cause of humanity the Dissenters are entitled to the regard and respect of every member of the Qontinunity _of every man who has at heart the improvement of his 'species, and tire social character of the community to - which he belongs.—( Cheering. ) I rejoice, therefore, whatn. -con sistently with the maintenance of the Established Church upon its present footing, and of all its just rights—consis- • tently with the splendour and pomp of its hierarelties—l ava able to accord to these excellent and true-hearted Dis santers an object on which their hearts have long been. set. I do so the more readily because I ant convinced this measure which I now advocate may be the means of laying the foundation for a better order of things—an order of things in - which we shall no longer hear the Churchman say that the only object of the Dissenter is to distress and ruin that Church Establishment, and the Dissenter, on the other hand, assert. that the object of-the Churchman is to degrade and insult the Dissenter—an order of things in which, with better vaapathies for one another, unfettered by prejudices and jealousy of feel ing, both Dissenters and Churchmen may meet on the one common ground on which they do not differ in opinion, 'and, pursuing uninterruptedly their career of usefulness, may con tribute not only to the spread of religion, but to the ge nerd peace and concord of this country, and to the uniting tog ether ot' the hearts of all his Majesty's subjects.—(The Noble. Lord sat down amidst loud and general cheering.) The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the Tiotoe resumed, amidst the confusion of the great bulk of the Kens. bers leaving their places. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (SCOTLAND.)` Mr. R. STEUART moved for leave to bring in a Bill ti the better regulation of the Municipal Corporations of Scot land. If the motion was agreed to it was not his intention to press the Bill through all its further stages till after the helida4s. Sir W. RAE objected to this mode of proceeding in Bills of this sort, as being extremely inconvenient: Lord STORMONT also objected to the introduction off the Bill to-night. So little attention was paid to the nd'airs of Scotland by this Haase, that it had become proverbial that Seotch Bills were never introduced till after one o'clock in the morning. Sir 4.;. C L ERK moved the adjournment of the debate, when ,e numbers were— For adjournment 4. Against it 43 Majority In the absence of strangers, Lord STORMONT was un derstood to have moved the adjournment of the questi wad this day, when Mr. R.. s ELTART said, after the division which had talon place he would not persevere in bringing forward the Bill that night ; but he trusted it would go forth who the parties were tt:at prevented the discussion of business relating to Scotland. After a few words from Sir G. CLERK, the discussion On the motion for leave to bring in the Bill was adjourned trd Friday. On the motion of Mr. HUME, returns relative to the Re - cord Commission were ordered. Sir ROBE RT ING LIS moved for copies of memorandums addressed by the Lords of the Treasury to the Eeeiusiastical Comm issioners. —Agreed to. Adjourned at a quarter to One o'Clock. TROUBLE IN OLD AGE.—A man from Grevve . J. thorpe, who will be 100 years old next birth-day. was 0 is_ charged from the custody of the governor of York Castle. in the Insolvent Debtors' Court, Wak e fi e ld, l ast week. —.L eeds Tunes. According to the post-office convention bi tween France and Russia, the transmission of letters between Paris and Berlin is to be made in 132 hours, provided the pa ssage from Mons to Aix la Chapelle, by the Beglia post, be accom plished in 20 hours. An official announcement of a robbery a few days since in Regent-street, is accompanied by the following noti fication The felony was eff.xted by the street door, which is always open (luring the day ;" which is as much as sayitq to the thieves " conic again." INTREPID ,CONDUCT.—A short time. since, .51( gut six, A. u., as the ferry-boat was leaving the pier of Corr.at arty for the opposite side, Mr. M. Ross, who had accomranied 4 , ne of the passengers to the quay, missed his footing ia the dm It !less, and fell over. The ferrymen had hoisted sail, and t he boat was scudding away from the land ; but, on hearing ti %o plunge, J. .Ross, better known as John Miniskr, boatmt. from Nairn, who was fortunately among the passengers at :h time, leaped overboard, and guided to Mr. Ross in the ux • treme darkness by a low gurgling sound, succeeded in lay, t : b)ld of hint. The evening teas stormy, and the sea ran high, ; ; bat though much impeded by his clothes, and no very swimmer, the brave fellow retained his grasp of Mr. it., unto had been stunted by the fall, until they were both Itieked up by 'the ferrymen. Letters from St. Petersburg, of the 12tb ult., maker mention of a bloody duel between two perscinays occupying a hif.rh rank at Court—Count M. P., and o . ne of the Chevalier Gulrds of tin, Emperor. Pic'Thls were cl,osen, and at the first shot ,the Count fell, moe_aily wound , - ; he had, however, sufficient strength left 4 1. 0 rise and fire- in his turn, killing his adversary on the spr,' L . The cornbat.rnay be said to have taken place under the e y es of the Emperor himself, who immedi a t e ly • Lave orders tr., arrest Count M. P., previous to his trial. Frankrort .I .. .'epe T. By C .der of the Board of Pollee in Gorbals, a small furna%e and holler have been erected in one of the rooms in tho .1 1 oiee-huilding . s, for the purpose of supplying at any time, a warm leith, which is fitted up in the same apartment, for yA:rsons hrought to the office in such a condition front cold and drunkenness, as that warm vatting only might save their lives.— Scots Times. The populous comm ute of Val-deChantillort rran,p) has rust been the scene cf a most horrible crime, namely a double murder ar.d suir.rde—an unhappy woman having cut the throats - of t - ,vo of her children with a razor, and then destroy:,•3 hersel'i The eider of the two poor little victims, scar 2 d six Ye'ffs old, closed the wound in his throat with bisfrand, 'finger, himaelf to the door, and called for help. Ar°th - ss child via% intended to be sacrificed. He went to srool, and his 'mother told him to return earlier than usual. ,te did not suspect anything wrong, but he was afraid to leave school before his companions, and he consequently ericaped. This threefold crime is attributed to a state of frarzy into. which she had worked herself in consequence of sane do— mestio disagreements. The King and Queen of Greece arrived happily of. the Pirttus on the 15th February, after a voyas-e of 15 days. Th e whole city—we might say the ~thole province--was im mediately is a tumult of joy. Count Armansporg, and the Ministers, paid their respects to their Majesties on hoard the , and the English And - assador, Mr. Lyon, had reached the Pdriland before them. The Chancellor immediately received from the King himsrlC the discharge, couched in tho mos gracious terms, 'which be had solicited eight monthr, before. When the King and his consort landed at the Po . mus, they were hailed with tla‘. itexhunations of a countks.s, multitude, drused in the gayest roloius of the Oriental fasihion, while the shi;pa AL 4,1 - 4tiutr. deco.rated 'with Bags Of all kinds, fired stares:,. Their Teerption in the city was evally enthusiastic, and ill 17re stvocts leading to the Royrit Palace. All the houses were adorned with flowers and } ,ranches of olive and myrtle, and filled with speetavors. A t .ter the arrival of thelr Majestics at the Palace, they acre w aired on by the magis t,atcs and the ()Myers of th, regula - • light troops, which the King caused to file off he'iore the I.Ninee. The fetes, illumi nati:ins, &c., continue, ty i d will l•,e concluded on Suns cy by Di , ine Service. On hi' e ntry, and at the audience, thr king. and rifts; wards the Q leen, appeared in a splendid motional Greed: (Ire", uhich g Av grert gratification. The aff .b lily of tne Yrnnigi Qdcen pie universAl satisfaction, and. all other fsciie4s gav4 witz ter . , t h at of jLI at the hem evelita ~