The Sun. — London, England, 1812-06-27 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PAR.LIAMrNT. ROUSE OP LORDS, FRIDAY. - The Irish. Revenue Causes, the Militia Adju, tants and Subalters, the Irish Glass Duties DraWhack, and the ScOts, Excise Bills, severally. Passed through Committees . olthe whole House, and were reported : without amendment. The Blackfriars Bridge Bill, and the Irish Grand Juries' Bill, were severally read a third time, and passed. The Riot Act Bill, the Unlawful Oaths, the Irish Customs; the New Loan, and the Bahama Trade Bills, were brought up-from the Commons by Mr. Lushington, and other Members, end se erally read ,a first time. The General Inclosare Amending Bill; was brought up by Mr. Kenrick, and also read a first time. CURATES BILL. The House resolved into a Committee on this Bill, and Lord WalsingUam having taken the Chair, The Earl of HAnnowey• observed, that. the Bill before their Lordships was most completely mis understood by numbers, as well in its principle s in its provisions. It was also greatly misre presented. He had received a variety of letters tom respectable incumbents, who stated that they would be entirely ruined by the Bill ; which . circumstances evinced what he had alleged. -When he considered, therefore, the late period of the Session, as well as' these great misapprehensions, he should not press it at present, but wished that the Bill may go forth as amended, so that it would he known and seen by the country, in the shape in which it was intended to propose it for a law. This was what he thought just and proper, not Only in a reference to his own character, but, what was of more consequence to him, the character of that most respectable person, whose Onworthy representative he was. on the occasion. lie wished it might be seen by those were to be ztiost affected, that the measure which he had the honoUr to introduce, was not liable to those ob jections Which' had been made against , it. What he now proposed was, that the Chairman be di rected to leave the Chair, report progress, and leave to sit again. A Committee may sit again on it either on Wednesday or Thursday; beyond that he did not wish to press it this Session ; but ,early in the next S e ssion, if Heaven pleased to Leave him life and strength enough to go Ihrough with it, he would again bring the measure under lull discussion, the necessity for which was felt for many years .past. After a few observations from the Archbishop °-f Canterbury, • the Bishop of London, and the Lord Chancellor, the Chairman left the Chair, and t he House resuming, the Committee were ordered to sit again on 'Wednesday next. Adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS, FRIDAY. Air. WALLACE brought in a Bill for the better tegulation of the East India Company; also the Last India Loan Bill, which were severally read f: first tine, and * ordered for a second read lig- sda The first on Monday, and the second on uey. The Douse went into a Committee on the Free ram Act. Leave was, given to bring in a Bill to permit the exportatio n of goods from th e .British permit India Islands to . other. Colonies under the dominion of Great Britain. The Copper Duty Bill, the Southern Whale tishery Bill, the General Inclosure Bill, and the West India License Bill, were severally read a third time, and passed. On the bringing up of the Report of the Post () Ace Bill, General WYNYARD wished to know to what Purpose certain monies collected by the Post office from the packets Was ayplied ? that CHANCELLOR of the LXCHEQUER Observed, the question had no referenCe to the Bill, but he would make an inquiry:. The Report was then agreed to.. The Report of the Newfoundland Rum Duty Was brought up and agreed to. • The Lords' Amendments made on the Whitby arbour Bill were taken into consideration, and a greed to. EXCHEQUER BILLS. - - The Rouse went into a Committee On the Com luereial Exchequer Bills Act. 4 , The C HANCELLOR o f th e E XCHEQUE i t observed, " l at Whe n the me as ure W as origi na lly brought 'tinder the consideration of. the House, great ; 10u bts had existed whether the payments would fq realised by the time specified. Notwithstand ,ling the delay which, had taken place, ,he was hap -15 to inforni the Committee, that' about one-half of the-Loan had been discharged. But representa ti6Os.had been made to him, thatit would be ne ce3sry to give the Commercial Body relief, by th ere the time for the r e mainin g payments. ."ere was sufficient evidence before him to sa tlsfy the Government, that the Manufacturers bad tll e xtraordinary stock of goods upon hand, and h lit therefore it was desirable to afford them as.- :. Is tance, in or d er that they might not be enabled ;1 3 get rid of their stock, and discharge their oh- Pgations to the Public. • He should' proliose, to extend the tim e f or ma ki n g th e i r payments six months longer: At present the Committee were h aw are, that i n J u ly ano th er i ns t a l m e n t wou ld b e ue .,i and that i n O c t o b er th e h it t p ayment wou ld p"e. Of 1,500,000/. betiveen 6 and 700,0001. ad be en pa i d. The sum remaining due, it was iti r "Po,sed to tlivide.into three, instead of two pay .. He th ere f ore move d fO r l eav e 'to bring in 8 " 1 f ts or extendi ng tli e . ti me f or th e payments o f a " 1 .. 6 1 - 1,500,0001. ad vance d by w a y o f Loan, &c. „ 'Ir:" Alderman tomaE - stated, as one of the it. (3lrl niissione rs , t h at a ll poss ibl e means h a d b een ' l , !e? to investigate the circumstances attendin c delay i n making good the payments; arid the' s „ "eoey of th e sure tie s f or the mon i es t h us ad i;i"d, and h e f oun d , t h at ow i ng to the s i tuat i on eh trade,. no blame was t o lie imputed to : tilt Mer-. ants a oliManufaciiircrs. ' fa vour JAMES G RA H AM ma d e a f ew o b servat i ons i n of the motion. - WHITBREAD thought that as his Hon. bad stated that all due care had been taken -P'''' to investigate the cireumstanzes of the borrowers, and no blame was ascribable to them for the non payment of their instahnent:s, time should be . given. Ile hoped, however, the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Vansittart) would state to the Committee who the persons were, that now were under the necessity of applying for assistance, what security had been given, and what mea sures taken for obtaining re-payment of the sums advanced. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that there was every reason to suppose, that though the instalments could not be repaid in July, those Who received assistance might be enabled to make good their payments in January. Thedpening of the American Trade would . give them an opportunity of getting rid of:their stock on hand. With respect to the sureties, 6Ovpro-. meat ; under all the circumstances, had' not thought it right to call on them for payment of their bonds, conceiving that it would be more advisable to afford the principals a little more in dulgence. Mr. WHITBREAD wished to know whether the Right Hon. Gentleman meant that the persons who were relieved were principally engaged in the American trade, because, if so, certainly that circumstance afforded fresh ground - for in dulgence ; if not, the hope which was entertained of the benefits to trade, generally from the re vocation of the Orders in Council, was hut a, slender one. If the defaulters were engaged in any other trade than the American trade, the re vocation of, the Orders in Council would not open an immediate market for them, so as to etrable them te pay in Januaiy what they could . not pay in July. _ _ _ Tile CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER had to inform the Honourable Gentleman and the Coin mittee, that very considerable sums had been ad vanced to the American traders. Certainly not the 'whole, Vitt a great part of the sum agreed to be issued. Mr. 'WHITBREAD allied, if lie was to understand that the monies were principally advanced to the American merchants, and therefore that the in dulgence now claimed was not to be considered in a general point of view ? The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER replied, that the indulgence, had been granted at the direc tion of the Commissioners; that in some instances all the money advanced had been paid—in others only some of the instalments. Sir. LOCKHART wished to know whether the whole of the Loan of 1805 had been repaid ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied . in the affirmative, with the exception of about 10,0001. The Resolution was agreed to; the Report re ceived, and leave was given to bring in the Bill. The Distillery Amendment Bill, and the Starch Bill, were postponed till Monday. • The Report of the Publicans Bill was post poned till Tuesday. • The Muriatic. Acid Bill was read-a second time, lard committed for to-morrow. NEW WRIT. A new Writ was moved for the: Borough of Doevnton, in the room of Sir Thomas Bonier, appointed Attorney-General. Mr. CREEVE'Y wished to know whether it was intended to promote the Master of the King's Household to .a Judge's. scat ? Such a, rumour was afloat. .He understood that it was the • de sire of the Master, and that his Majesty's Govern ment, conceding to that desire, had advised the appointment. ,If so, it would furnish one among the many instances in which the situation of Judges had been filled for political .motives. — Should the answer be in the affirmative, he should think it his duty to make the appifintment the foundation of a motion, thinking that it - was in compatible with the duties of the office, and con sidering that a Judge should be independent of the Crown, that he should be a Member of Par liament. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER'--" Of all the customs which have been introduced lat terly into this House of asking questions and de manding answers, this I think is the most irre gular. Mr. WHITBREAD observed, that the Learned Attorney-General held the office of a Welsh Judge, and the same time officiated as Counsel on the Circuit. This he thought was not g.orrect in fact, it had been the subject of, discussion some time since, when the propriety of excluding Judges from seats in this House was brought for , . ward. He thought it rather-extraordinary that no answer 'Was returned to the question of his Hon. Friend. The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER was not aware that he could answer a qUestion as to what might be the private intentions of his Honourable Friend. A question of fact might be answered, and to' any question of that' kind he should be prepared. Mr. KENRICK hachm objection to answer the qitestiOn of the Honourable Gentleman. Cer tainly no notificatiOn of his (Mr. K.'s) being ap pointed had reached his ears, or he should not have seen in his place At the same time, he .saw no reason why, after many years of attention to his professional duties; be might not look for ward with honourable ambition to a station of the kind now alluded to. The motion for a new Writ was then agreed to. NEW TAXES.-EXCISE BILL. _ Mr. LUSH INGTON brought up the R e p or t of the Excise Bill. Mr. BROUGHAM took occasion to object to the Leather Tax; as being calculated to burthen the lower orders of people. he considered it there fore as a very impolitic measure. He was not disposed to grumble at War Taxes, beCause, if the people would have war, they must contribute to its support. The preSent Tax-would fall heavi ly upon the farmer in a middling way : he meant those of'one hundred pounds a year, who em ploy not more than two pair of horses and three Servants. The tax, he contended, operated in every way to his disadvantage, for it fell upon the beast before his hide was tanned, and consequent ly pvevented the farmer from stocking his .farm. The upper classes in. Society were not taxed in proportion; in respect AO leather, as the lower classes. The farmer's 'servant, for instance, would pay ls.' 6d. per pair more for his slioe ; pair of horse's harness would cost 12s. more, For a farm of IClO'actex,'• an additional tax of 21. per annum would -be - lal4l. Was this addition, he •would'ii4k, nothing? Taking - t•:.e 'farms on an avera o irt-, throughout England and Wales, the rental 121. per axre, and this •tax would be the Means of adding one-sixth to t' e Property-Tax, which the farmer already pays. He therefore. entered: ' his protest against the Bill,: and against 'all nib- bliag taxes on Hashandry.. 'l'heTax- on Leather, as applied to shoes, was Brie it .. nifected the lower, more.than the higher classes. - His ltight Hon. Frieint by it !lad 'got bold of the feet of the lower classes; be-wished•rather that hehad taken hold of the headS and.hands of the upper orders, by a tax on Hats and Gloves,. He objected to the report being'br6nght up. Lord ALTifORPE coincided in opinion with his Hon, Friend. . The two 7 main' objections to the. Tax on Leather were, first, the great consump tion of the article in the army; and secondly, the inequality of- the pressure upon tha different or ders in society, the_ lower orders being , more • heavily burthened by it. The tradesmen . em-• employed in this branch of trade had informed him that nearly one-sixth of the leather used was consumed by the Government. There was one great objection to taxation of this kind. The tax, too, was sci pressing upon the agriculturalist, that it was impossible he could bring np a fa-, mily, every article of life being already so high. He should., .therefore, oppose it—and. mop ~y " That instead of now,' the Bill be reported this day six months." Mr. BENNETT seconded the motion, for the reason•, Wore stated by his Hon. Friends. On the question beink put on the amendment, Mr. LOCKHART adverted to the schedule of the rates, Which he thought was so obscure as to be unintelligible to some persons. He recommended; therefore, a consolidation of them into one. The taxes on Leather and Horses • were, in his opi nion, a tax upon Agriculture. He Was not dis posed to object "to any tax, if the necessities of the State demanded it s :but he wished to see it equally laid, and less oppressive upon . the lower orders of the community. The Tithe Owner, he observed, •reaped all the profits of the Farmerand he stated, that several , instances had come to his knowledge, Co justify him in the assertion. General TARLETON objected to the tax on leather, as materially affecting the army. Sir THOMAS TURTON considered the tanners would be greatly affected by it. There were upwards of two thousand who had on hand up wards of eighteen months stock ;' those in York shire and other parts would feel its operation ma terially. Mr. Alderman COMBE made a few observations, which it was impossible-to hear. Mr. BRAND also observed, that the tanners would be very much ,injured by the tax, for the reasons stated by the Honourable Baronet ; they thought that unless some counteracting duty n'as put bn to prevent the loss which would be felt in the home consumption, they must transfer their trade to Ireland. Mr: BIDDULPH objected to any new taxation until the utmost economy was evinced in the ma nagement of the existing revenue. For many years a report of a Committee of that HotiSe on the public expenditure, had laid on the table un attended to. Sonic of the retrenchments recom fnenJed .in that report were, it . seemed, consi dered to.comprebend too large, - sums, others too small sums, but, for his part, he thought that there was no object 'of economy either too large or too _small to be adopted. He stated it to be his intention, at some future - period, to .propose a Resolution to the House, that they would not agree to the imposition of any additional taxes on the people, until they had ascertained that the present taxes were fairly and impartially collect ed, and• that all due attention was paid to econo my in their application to the purposes of the State. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that •he had not risen sooner to address the House on this qUestion, because he was desirous previously to collect the various opinions that existed in' the House on the'subject under their. consideration. The Hon and Learned Gentleman who comthenc-- ed the present discussion, had admitted the neces-• sity of additional taxation • he might ars-6 have ad mitted that, as during the fast century -every article of use and consumption had been subjected to im post, it was nearly 'impracticable to resort to a mode of taxation, but an increase of the existing duties. It so happened, thatsno increase -of duty . .had taken place on the article which was-the sub-, ject of debate for 10.1 years, during which period almost every other article of use or luxury had ua dergone a gradual increase of taxation. The ob jections to the proposed tax on hides and skins- resolved . themselves into three classes ; those who maintained that it would be injurious to agriculture; those who maintained that it would bear severely, and with-partiality, on the poor; and those' who maintained that . would Materially --affect the manufacturing interest.— With respect to the first kind of objection--name ly, that the increase of the duty would be in jurious to agriculture, if even all the calculations of the Learned and Hon. Gentleman opposite were admitted, the case he had made out for the far mers appeared to be that, taking into the account all the taxes they were liable to, with the additibn of this increased duty, they were subject to a taxa tion of something less than two pounds for every hundred acres, But the Honourable and Learned ,Gentleman had in some degree furnished an answer to his own argument ; for he • told the House, that if the. farmers would but adopt throughout the kingdom the improved practice of agriculture which prevailed in some districts, the advantages which they would thence derive, would amply compensate for any increase of taxa tion. - There could be no doubt that this improved practice would by degrees siread itself over the whole country; and that human labour, and the . labour of horses, would be much abridged by the gradual introduction of machinery to perform the various agricultural operations, such as thrashing, &c. to Which it was 'applicable, But the fact was, that after all, the,proposed increase of duties would not be at the rate of above 4d. or sd. an acre to the farmer: ,Could it be supposed that this would occh sion any material injury ? Still less could it be ap prehended (as seemed to be imagined by some Iron. (lentlernen) that it would cause any d notion in the existing rents, of farms. - - for the first species or objection. He wouli ceed -to the second—namely, that the propose.' crease of duty would materially and partia . .!,7 fect poor people. Than thiN, nothing aT)i, to him more unfounded. He admitted tii.kt poor must feel their share of the proposed increase, As they always felt their share of an incre ise of any of the duties on articles, either of necessifv, — or which custom had introduced into generai cc sumotioiL It was- tine that the increase of the excise duties: on hides and: skins would compal the' poor to pay somtivhat more for their shoes ; but even after the increase, the price which - they would have' to pay would not be so 'great as it was in the days of Queen Anne, when the original duty was imposed. It bud been said that the' poor would not only suffer indirectly but directly: This he denied. The ealculatio i n which had heen made upon this subject was most erroneous.--• would appear by, that calculation that the- duev, would. be increased. 360 per cent. to the con . sumer. Into whose, poOkeas •, would this exorbis: tint increase on the cansumer go ? The tanners slenied that they Would receive any'of it. The cur= tiers and shoe-makers ..did not adolit that they would receive much; But. let the probable hict be examined. Theweis s itt of a, poor 'man's ptur of shoes might be estimated at torn or-three phunda. ,The direct, tax, therefore, could not ,amount to above fourpenee lsjfpeony, or fivepence, on each .pak of poor man's shoes. • As to the •shoesof the higher classes, 'it was -well knowil tt a great part of the price paid for them was not in con-- , suleratiou . of the, leather, but of the ,fashion. He .had still to reply tothe third class of .objections, viz. that the increase of duty would very anusit injure the manufacturing interests, .rIT, e. had, even . beep desired to. postpone theprogress of the Bill ; in order to receive the communications oftheraaa nufacturers, and :to Ilear their objections.. He -had received their communicatious, -and he had heard their objections s ---Every Hon. Gentleman present, had doubtless a copy of the paper -which he held in his hand, containing the statement-of those objections. The first objection in that statement was, that the increase of the duty would operate exclusively on the manufacturers. Nothing could be . more unfounded. Indeed it was directly. contradicted. by some of the ob jections in the latter part of the statement, for it was impossible for the manufacturers to support alt the, objections -which this paper - contained.— They clashed. -It was impossible that they could. maintain that the price would be raised to the consumer, and at the same time that the opera tion.of the duty would be confined to the menu • - facturers. He would here, observe, that o it was not intended to charge the additional duty on the stock in hand, and the manufacturers would there fore gain s sonie advantage by the necessary rise in the price of that article, which they had laid in on comparatively advantageous ,terms: He would proceed to the consideration of the next objection contained inthe manufacturers' statement; namely, that the increase of the duty would check exporta tion.. How could this be? A drawback was allowed on exportation. Goods exported would be there fare free from duty, and there would be the single inconvenience, that during the interval between the manufa eture and the exportation, the ditties must . be advanced, so that a larger capital might be nes nessary than Would be requisite in other circum stances. • The next objection urged by the ma nufacturers (although it had nothing to do with themselves), was, that the duty would have the effect of lowering the price of oak hark.----NOva, really, if the Manufacturers raised the price of leather :to the consumer, . so:much as it was-by some. said they would 'do, they would be able to to pay . Moreofor oak bark, instead of wishing to procure -it on easier terms than at present. The manufacturers .also complained that the increase would give art undue advantage, to the -Irish tanners. In what manner..? - The ' Irish' , tanners at present paid a.doty somewhat less than that paid bY the English tanner, anal . when "the existing duties in England . were doubled, it was evident that the Irish tanner would pay much less than the English tanner. BUt in What Market could this aflect the English tanner? Not in the English market, 'for if the Irish tanner bring' his goods' to an s Englisk ma4tet, he must par- the English duty o and if, on the contrary, the English tanner carried his goods to an Irish market, he would receive the diawback, and would be subject only to the Irish duty. The remain ing objections inthe paper, containing the state ment of the manufacturei-s; consisted of a re ference to tha hardships which the lower classes of the community would endure from the" in creased price of leather. But as he , had be fore observed, these objections were wholly incompatible with the first declaration, that the evil would rest exclusively on the manufacturing interest. As to postponement, he really did not see how delay could throw any light on the sub ject. The whole case was before the House. It was a very simple one. • Sitailarobjections would he made to any tax that could be devised. was not .one of those who concurred in the sound- , ness of the principle, that the rich alone Should be the subjects of taxation. Neither was it true . that taxes which bore on the rich Were not felt by the poor. For instance, if (as had been re commended in some quarters) the Income Tax were increased in .its operation on the higher classes, beyond the fair proportion, what would be the consequence, but that the higher classes must diminish their expences ; they must dismiss part of their different establishments ;- they must diminish - the number of persons employed' by them in, the various occupations of life, and the evil would thus be communicated from the anost exalted to the lowest.members of the community. The true principle was, that as the rich and the poor had one common interest in the safety and welfa're of the country; so the Legislature ought to take care that one common system of taxation should, if possible, be applied to them. Mr. BASTARD observed, that the reason why no additional tax had been laid upon leather for the last hundred years, was, that it was found that it could not bear it . ; with respect to this tax af fecting land to the extent of three-peace for every acre, it would follow, according to • the calcula tion of the Chancellor -of the Elxchequer, that the poorest alto would pay much nacre in proportion