The Sun. — London, England, 1812-05-06 00:00:00

. . with death,aiiy traitois tb this edirti , abf, and fo put - 6 ue theM for. that.. purpote, alts ongli they Should fiY to the - verge of the _nation." Bench was the arltli tiltech had'be'en taken to great extent in parts of Yorkshire, Lancashire,' and Chcahire. It was with , regret, •that he felt •hiarselt compelled to state,. that atnce the practice of administering those oaths, at tempts at murder • had - been made in these dis tricts, to which they hail ) until that per - loc i ], been strangers. If, at the time when the act- which Ile wished to attend was passed, the Legislature 4 ad contemplated the possible existence of such horrid oaths as that .which he had just read, he was persuaded that they would have interfered 'to:pre- Vent their operation, by penalties still more severe , . khan those Which had been enacted. The object '?f the Bill which he proposed was, that the admi . rlistration Or taking of. oaths, which bound the par-' dies who took thcm to the -commission ,orencotk, agenient of aCtS,, which were already capltal fe lonies by law, should itself be a capital felony. He intended also to. introduce ;a pro Vision, giving to: itjeh parties, who. had taken the oath in question, lf they made a confess;on df thin fact before a Md- Vstrate, - and afterwards took the oath of allegiance, zentptio n ,from the penalties of the Bill. He trusted there. would be rto -objection to : his motion ; if th:re wete, he should have an opportunity of replying to it. The Right Hon. Gentleman con eluded by moving for leave to'bring in a Bid; &e. Aar.'e. WYNNE did. not rise to oppose the trio-. 1 , 1 9 n, but to observe that the •pooposittoo of the 'Right Hon. Gentleinan, contained a 'new 61 legislature, which the House ought to- consider ► the before th e y ad o pt e d it. Hitherto' it: had - been "e practice in the English pt:nal law always to dis titlgui,h tite intention to commit an act from the. of. the ace itself. • It appeared to him the- inciters, of the existiog disturbances, • grounding themselves,upn the proposed Bill, would • . 1 :_a1 to th ose w h om they i n fl uence d, as so o n as t h ey bad taken the Oath, " You may as we'll go on, for they can hang you for what you have done already." (' never bad thought political oaths witrth,attetid -nglu, and he quoted the opinion of Sir R. Walpole With tewect to their impOtence and inefficacy. • Mr. HORSiEIt _condemned this attempt to legis late for a parikular distria, and on a particular oc casion. No one felt more strongly than he did, the danger at ten d ant u p on, t h e l a t e i nsurre di on . H ow 'at those alarrning.eircumstancesprOceeded from the tondua of the Government, was not the question b ow to agitation'before the House. , Certainly, a teat part of the di s tres s es by which, the disturbances ad been occasioned, no Government, could have rented, but th ere w a s also a great part which might 're been prev en t e d by a wiser course, with respect ; O both both our foreien - and'dorriestic concerns. He ob lic'eed to the Bil 7, first, on the ground stated by his' 6 . ° nograble Frien,t, that it went to coati a new, pital punishmei.t, contrary to the - principle of Engli s h ju r i s di c ti o n, which distinguished between th e Contemplation of offence, - and the actual act„; po — en , hdly, on the givuud of the !utility of capital th n ishments, in puttieg down offences at all ; ' and In the because the proposition made no distinction th e d egrees of offence, the necessary consegyel)ee of 1 4 which wou ld h e , t h at t ; lose iodiveluals, who hay tog taken the oath `shad rendered themiteves htabk b„.'he penal op e rati o n of the Bill, would be induceJ, t i o the consideration' that thereby they would incur additional punishin , to proceed to the co n prtssion of : new crimes. Such an expedient as toe ti c , ese nt,' though dountlessly with the best inten 1-uss had frequently been the resource of unwise Z i , s . i ,'lcus. Instead of availing there elves et • the to —"z laws, they endeavoured to make new trees ik r tll ,,• te t thepartieular case. - Why would not Go- C, "lent try the etie3 of - the Act of 1797, hich oa ° t nihited t h e a d m i n i ster i ng an d aking - of unlaw ab i , 4 „! under the penalty of transportation Let a lical commission ,go to the disturbed c unties. is th e w as unquestionably the best mode of treating e vil, became it would be attended , t . iy prompt i t , ot 11-11 Ple, and all those ctrevaistaittes or Itlal so ity whicn might be expected to have a met effect. Let ibis Special Commission then t i t 13 P".tbe law, as it already Stood. ' It the expe vauient , ho e ld prove unsucc e ss f u l, t hat would be the s u bj e el c ZaPPly Parliament for a- new Bill on the - t,s l :., be CrtAN•oil.Loa. of,the Eg.CHEStUiIt was happy . t " "ad that heit:.. was one O . roCeetiio& of his Maies e.3,,:s 00- ertimept *which was likely to-ineet the con ' ir r erlee of the Hn. anti Learned gentleman, for sn vi. c as ' i nterqled to lose no time' in dispatching a ecial commission Crt the purpose ‘tt trying and t ua tshing the Offences wit s icti. 044 been committed. ut notwillisianding all that the Hon. and Learned entlenaan had urged in the other parts of hi speech, ti e was still o f on i tt i o n t h at G overnmen t woul.l. not ° t heir duty, if they did not lake every meansl° I:4:ilea the property a..d lite of the subject. What ! 'able a moment as the,present, was the Honour e and Learned Gentleman for making " an 1 "Peritnent," a n d wa i t i ng in the mean vybile for; I . s "' e ks and mouth; to s-e 'how" many would assas,inated under- it ? He • would_ by no all charge the Hon. and. Learned Gentleman t_ indifference to the lives of the people, for he Reg Persuaded, that if that Hon. and Learned Gen tman receiv e d t h e i n f ormat i on w hi c h e ve r y p os t ortleuZht to Gover nmen t, h e would be little disposed of try an experiment" at the expence of the lives strbjects,who for no other crime than stand 111P in def ence o f t h e l aws, were s h ot , at ' . in, the tr!'" toads; and suffered death in other-ways, by the inclachinations and combinations of those misguided hi, iv p idk lals" . whose bond of union the Bill prop o sed by "igltt Hon. Friend was calculated to dissolve.— ' IL 41 , said th e H on . an d L earne d G en t. " tr y via of th e l aws you h ave a l rea d y i n f o r ce. "— d c t he Huh.. and Learned Gentleman consider the fi „ which wou ld be requisite' to do this ? the c i a s i t P l ace, the ti me fo r t h e a pp o i n t men t o f a. spe -1.,,b cc}aicnission—then the time occupied by their cer afurs__ , and• subseciitently the time necessary to as -1 -1 the e ff ea-4 the existing punishment of trans- Pta t l °a• If, after all, this punishment were found - no stronger one could be resorted to, I ne next- Session of Parliament. Was this il ch stat e in which thi ng s o ught to be left ? It the the , "Itlemen opposite, filled in the vicinity of ov,, lt t s ting disturbances, and had to defend their, was and t h eir neighbours' lives and property, he s ri"re th at t h ey would th i nk not . / I t h a d ,b e en b Y the two Ho nou rable and. Learned .Gen- Qs oPposite, that the proposed %vent- \~o ~, tO put a ,Ctititpit'aey to ioniinit an offence, anti the actual commissiOn . efolirn offence; on the same . foUting.- Certainty the.,objett of the Bill was tO Make the conspiracy per se a capital offence. 'ticked, he_ eould,not conceive a more hernoes of- fence than that of whith.a combination of persons, multiplying by violence . and seduction, the instru ments of theii• crimes e by .c al - Tell:rig them, under theterror4 of an oath, to take away the lives and , property of their felloWEsiabjetts,..were guilty. The Honourable and Learned Gentleloan who had last ..spokeo, said, that this was one of the instances of the alacrity. with which unwise Goiernments re sorted to new penal-enactments, for seem ii y against_ . a temporary evil. In, answer to this he would ob. serve, that the conduct of the Honoorable and, Learned Gentleman on the present occasion was , one inatance of the, readiness of_ the Gentlemen in Opposition, to ()hied at any time, to'any mea 7 sure which his Majesty's_ Goverpment thought. it necessary, for the salvationeof the Empire, ,to bring , under the _consideration ,of . Parliament.— When the Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that a greit part of the existing distresses were, ascribable to circumstances which no Government : could con troole he spoke truly and .wisely; but when, he, went further, and declared that Government were . ihe instrumental causes of, the other part of those . distresses, : the Hoeouretale and Learned Gentleman stated that w hkh was unfounded, and which, al, thnogh_ he (Mr. P.) hoped, tru-teci,, and believed, the Honourable :and Learned ,Gentleman, , did not intend should be so, knight prove extraordinarily mis chievous. , It ixas well known that in many of the . agitated distrias, the Most aelive promoters of the disturbances were ,nut those..who were distressed for want of employment. They merely availed t hetraselt es of the distresses of others, to work upon, them for their. Own, perposes, and ;the instruments of their designs were operated upon less_ by their own feel ings of sutterieg, •thane by what. they heard atid read to be the opinions of others. He gaVe the Ho nourable and'Learoed Gentleman .full credit for act ing from conscientious - motives ; but he put . it to. him whether such observations. as he had made might. not be produCtive of great evils ? In. one part .of Honourable and Learned Gentleman's-speech, as if he had not heard the remarks with which his Right Kanortrable. Friend. prefaced his motion., he con tended, that those who took the oath would, if tile proposed Bill were passed into a law, hate as good a chance by proceeding to the commission of crimes, as \ by abstaining from them. This: was a com plete, misrepresentation. The Bill was to have no retrospective operation, and it was to eontain a clause, ,enabling persons. who bad taken the oath, and who voluntarily came before a' magistrate to; confess that fact, and to take the oath of allegiance, to avail themselves of offered indemnity. Tlie tact was, that most of those who entered info this ille gal combination, were either compelled or seduced to do so. The proposed bill would-give tq such un wary individuals the means of retreat before the . actual- commission of crim e . Mercy would thus be blended with severity, and by the judicious union of these two, great qualities, the existing .evils might probably . be removed, The Hon. a:A Leartied Gentleman who = followed his Right Hon. Friend declared, and quoted authority for his declaration--that . no law against political oaths could ever be efficacious. Did he Honourable and I...ea!ned Gentleman recollect the law against the se duCtion of - sold:eis - from their duty by the a:kni nlstrati h of unla ,, ful oaths,' rendering such admi nistration capital -?-- The ottence at that period exist• ed to an alarming degree. Two days atter the pass ing of the Act an Offender was apprehended. He was tried and conyid.:cl ;.and although from 'he circuit'. s;anceof the law having peen so recently passed that it could scarcely be presumed to beg nerally known, it was not thought, advisatale_tca carry the sentence into execution, tlre notoriety of the transaction caused the immediate cessation of the offence. Here was an indisputable pet of of the advantagecies effect of the law, which the Hon. ,nd Learned Gentleman chrratterised as tnetiicacious. Satisfied as .he was that the pio , osed Bill would be attended with ad vantages equal!y salutary, he was persuaded that the House would eot hesitate to accede to the motion of his - Right Hon. Friend. Mr;Bitouallam ob,erved, that the Right Hon. Gentleman had introduced into bis speech topics . .of a anature wholly extraneous. He had-declared that - these who were in political opposition to the Go- : 1 vernment, availed themselves of every opportunity to object - to measures which were brought for Ward ,for the .good of the country. .The answer to this was, that,they ohjededto those Measures , not be cause they conceived thein to be for titre good of the • country, but because they Conceived them to tend to the detrimeet of the country: .. His Hon. Friends had been accused of opposing measures which went to check assassination. ,COuld any reasonable man believe such an accusation just? He, repeated the argument of his Hon. and Learned Friepclohat the existing law was adequate to the necessity, and. de nied that the instance.of tampering with soldiers was at all analogous to the present. -. Nothing could be more injudicious than needlessly to increase' the .number of. capital offences. When . atrocious niur dors were daily committing in the metropolis,.the Right, Hon. 'Gentleman contented himself with moving au inquiry into the state of the Nightly Watch ; now that an,absurd oath had been found, on an individual,. lie proposed the violent measure uudei consideiation ; a Measure which would not meet theeVil, even if the existing law were insuffi cient for that purpose. ..AlreSTeeneta : was surprised, at the ,opposition which the Bill proposed by his• Right Hon. Frieincl , experienced, because he. recollected that when his Right Hon. Friend intimated, som•-.: time ago, that -.-such. a , - proposition ruight create debate, a Right Honourable Gentleman .on the other side of the House, (we believe ,Mr.. Ponsonby) said that he couldnot conjecture that such could be the case He certainly should himself have thought it highly init. probable that, then - lotion of his Hon. Friend would meet with opoesition. Why? Because it was a sub• je6 t v v s liich . did not;demand consideration ? Certainly . not ; but because, as the candour and indulgence of the House almost uniformly induced them to agree to a Inteion for, leate to. bring in a Bill, the principle of which did not appeal - to be wholly unprecedented, he did not ekee& that that candour and indulgence 1 would be withheld in a case. in- which the tranquility and 'evert the existence of the country was at stake. It was still qxtraurdinaiy, and was. indeed a ciNuoa stance for which, with al his eiperience.of Parlia_ ,menta'ry usage, acid the opeiation or the spirit of party, he was qoite unprepared, that on a motion for introducing soth a.Bill as that . now proposed, ap Hon. and .Learned Gendern-tri; for,' whose character he entertoined the highest reSpea,, should deliver such sentiments as-- .Mr. HortNErt spoke to order. The Hon. Gentle man had no right to impute to - him conduct prompt cd by the spirit of party. Mr. ST&PHEN denied that he meant any such imputation. What he bad been going:tO say was, that, with hiS opinion of the Hon.'andtearned Gentle Man, he was strrpriSed that on such a motion as the present, he had thought proper to offer to the House such 'sentiments as those whiCh he had ut tered. He felt this ,to be the more 'extraordinary, .from the Unfeigned respea which he entertained for the. quarter whence those sentiments proceeded. BY what was the present discussion to te succeeded ? B . )r‘ an inquiry whether the Oiders in Council were the .causes of the existing distresses ? The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, however,- anticipated the `result of that inqniry, and boldly" pronounced that they were so. He had introduced topics in his speech, certainly not with any such intention, but which were calculated to impress . on the minds of- thp misguided rioters , that there was something in the condua of Government which extenuated the' enormity of their offence; and adlirdedito them this salvo to their conscience, that these - crimes were not so great because they were oppressed by that Goverment. Nothing could be conceived of 'a more.dangerous tendency than such observa- • tions—nothing that tendkl mote to counteract 11,Je necessary policy on wt•ich his Majesty's Govein went had been Compelled to act. He certainly was no friend to the . .iiicreae of capital punishmentS. On this subjea he concurred - in a great measure' With the Hon., and Learned i Gentle,man, Oho hod so' frequently brought it under the "codsideration of Parliament (Sir S: Romiliy). But were that Hun.' and Learned Gentleman present; he (Mr. S.) was , persuaded !hal • he. would not • say that the present was a case to which his principle could properly be applied. The ciecumst,-„nce of the Oath' having been found in the . prickel of one of the persons who' had attacked Mr. Burton's premises,. was made light of ; but let it be tecollected, that that person was one of a body who made such a desperate at tack upon those premises ;. that 'although "eight of their number were killed, they yet sUcceeded burning them. He did .not profess to be .more alarmed than others at wllat was taking place in the country, but he really was , astonished that there should be' found in any mad in thbi 'House a total want of sympathy with his Majesty's Government on the occasion. The oath had been treated es a kind o( "private engagement. 'lt Was an oath, by which those who took it, bound themselves 'to as ,. sassinate all who violated its conditions. There, was reason to conclude that not : lesS that 120,000 persons had taken this dreadful and abominable oath. If, under these circumstances, his Majesty's Government had omitted for a single'day to propose to Parliament some remedial measure, they would have de4erved the indignation of the country.; for who could be bold enough to say, that at the . ver)l moment he was speaking, rivers of blood might not be flowing in consequence- of that desperate coM- - bination, which it was the objet of the present • prop9sition to dissolve Mr. NVHITBREAD allowed that the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had very improperly been called to order by his Honourable and Learned Friend: He had not departed from the common praelice. It was an ordinary intimation in that House, that all opposition to the measures of Go verninem originated in the spirit of, party:. And this intimation was thrown out by those who were themselves themost active paitizans. Of this de scription he conceived the Honourable and Learned Gentleman to be— Mr. STEPHEN spoke to order. The SPEAKER said that it was disorderly to impute party motives to any Hon. Metubd. Mr. WHITBREAD expressed his regret at having offended the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, but in saying that he was imbued evith the spirit of party, he merely followed the . example which the Hon. Gentleman had set. It the Hon. Gentleman ed not to , be offended, he must avoid affording an example of offence. The Hon. and Learned Gee. tlernan, while he. recommended moderation, had not exhibited Much himself. He had attributed to his Hon. and "Learned Friend the introdutlion into his speech, of language expressing a sympathy • for she personst e who were - eoucerned in the present unfortunate disturbanceS, and this because his Hon. and Learned Friend stated that the accumulated distress which the measures of Government had oc casioned, gave to those persons the - power of se ducing irLitviduals who would otherwise be out of the reach of their/ wiles. •What hid been said by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and by the -Bight.Hon. Gentleman, of the effect of inflamma tory topics—of the alarm which they excited—of - the dangers which attended them, &c. all went to the extinction of public debates. According to this principle, the national edicts should be passed in ' private—the penalty of death: should be declared . by proclamation, and not be discussed—the House should sit , with closed doors, and not a word of what was said within theireWalls should be allowed to go forth to the public. Could the Hon. and Learned Gentleman seriously believe that he (Mr: W.) or either of his Hon. and Learned Friendso.vas an abettor Of assassination, or that he was less dis posed to ptit it down than any man in that House ? The friends of the Bill assumed that the penalty of death had cured the evil. Those who opposed it contended, that by such an , enaament the evil would he aggravated. If, as had been stated by the Hun. and Learned Gentleman, not a moment ought to be lost, theltight Hon. Gentleman was extreme ly culpable for not having (as it was in his power to do) brought forward the subject some 'days ago.— But why not watt the etleal'of the existing law ? Would any one say, that in 1797 the danger did not appear equally great to the mind of ,Mr. Pitt, or that the deeds of that period were l ess atrocuus than those of the present ? And y©t Mr. Pitt did not. by any means think such a measure necessary as that now proposed. Supposing this Bill should pass, but should fail in producing the etfeet predicted, would !the Right Hon. Gentleman .recommend the adoption of any further proceeding ? Perhaps, if death should fail in quieti-ng the country, he might advise torture, and suggest the revival of the horrible statutes of Henry VIII. by which it was enaeted, • that offenders apinst them -should-be boiled. Th'e 'Hon. Gentleman seemed to treat this supposition with contempt,. as the mosrldreadful tortures had . ' recently been inflicted in the empire. Let the ! House reCullea what, took place in Ireland in 1797 and 1798. At those 'periods torture was, inflitied is that country, and the u,se of it justified. by the Lord Chancelior;•-• The., Right - Hon.-Gentleman appeared-- to be deaf to the lessons of experience. In the Nottingham Bill, the penalty of death was enaCted. Ha \ any more. discoveries ,taken place in Conse quence ? Was, that county in a more ttannnilised state I The strongest argument against the pro poSed Bill was that' which had been so ably 'urged by his 'Hon...and Lea* rried-Frieuds, namely, that' it made no• difference between the administration of an oath and the a s sassination of a man. 00 these grounds, arid not on any party_ motive, which, in :deed, it was utterly inapossible to feel on such a so- . lemn occasion as' the' pre , sent, , he must vote against the introdualoo. of the Bill. Mr. LOCKHART 9 bserved, that the Hon. Gen tlemen oppbsite hae a tt&rilpteLl to blend the conduct of--Government with the distresses' of the agitated . distriel.s;as if ,hey were the cause and. effeel. , Thy , had also depicted the nature of the offence against . which the proposed Bill was immediately di- - • \reeked, in less glowing colours than it deserved.— It was not merely's_ conspiracy to commit murder, but it was a conspiracy to. give e 1 by threats of murder, to the at'is . of a' Secret Committee. — The proceedings of those who were engaged in tins disturbances evinced that that Committee .00bld have no other object in view but the-destruction of the law and constitutijoa or th . e kingdom. -He was _ happy that this discdssion had taken place, tor be wasperstiaded that great good would- result from the. attention of - the whole, country-. being - 431kt', to the. subjeol.. Mr. ABERCROMBIE was .of opinion, that before such a prOposition as the present had been submitted' to Parliament, accurate , intortnat , ion respeCting alleged necessity for its adoption should have been laid - on the table of the House. He Could not be lieve on the authority of the- Hon. and Learned Oentleman; there -were one hundred and twenty thousand persons united in an illegal - combination.. The fad probably was, that ,there might not be tea. thousand, or eight thousand,,or even two thousand, so,comhiped. After repeating several of the' ob-, jedions made to the Bill by his 'Honourable and Learned Friends, he concluded by observing, that, other oportunities wonld.be afforded him of express ' ing More fully hiS sentiments on the subject. Mr.-BATHIJ4ST spoke in favour 'of the motion. Mr: MARRYATT eXpleStd -himself in favour of, the Bill. Mr. HERBERT stated, that he should be glad to know whether a fair experiment . h a d been 'm o d e of the laws al, eady in existence', before he-gave his as sent to any -further proceedings. Mr. D, GIDDY reprobated the idea of waiting for ant- furiher-experimentof the operations of the law as it now 'stood, when Jnurders were aatrally witted, and-the destru&ion of property going on to such an alarming degree. It would be impossible that greater sufferings could be inflicted on indivi duals, or greater evil threatened tcilhe community .at large ; unless the dtfenders were to resort I ihe measure of burning the very corn ; and he hoped, not only that those strong measures would be resort ed to, but that it 'they dirt not succeed, the greater extremity of martial law would be finally put iti .force. Leave was then . given to bring in the Bill. EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER. Previously to the Housegoing into the Commit• tee on the Orders in Cotincil, the. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER declared, that since Friday he had made every inquiry into the circumstances, and found, upon exarnimnion of all, that . it would bd impossible to bring forward the East India question . • this session. ' • ORDERS IN COUNCIL. The House then vent into a Committee.on the prders in Council, and proceeded to the examination of, witne.3ses. • The ttit . withess examined by Mr. Stephen stated himself to be much alarined on account of his fa mily, at the prospect of losing the trade i t whit h he was engaged. It appeared that he had been engaged in it eight yea's, live of which it had been a losing trade. On a question here put by Mr. Stephen, " And this is the trade, the loss of which disturbs your pai s ental feelings !" .a long discussion occurred, in which Mr. BrOughatn, Mr. Stephen; Mr. Tiet. ney, Mr. - Marryatt, Mr. Ca:ttring, Mr. Littletou, and others, participated. A. division took place on a motion mad e by M r : Brougham, to expunge the question from t4 - mit rl es . . Forthe motion TO—Against it 75. • The question .was of course understood to stand bn the minutes. On returning to the gallery, %%efoutill Mr. BRAND on his legs, complaining of the manner in which the H its 4. had been occupied twin half-past eight o'clock, inidiscus-ing the tone which should. be given to.a qui s;ion pot to a witness, (tor was' nothing more), which had precluded the possibility of his blinginglorward the motion of which he had given notice, at any thing like a proper hour. Hie was, however, determined to press it, unless a day at the beginning of next week were named, on which it could be brought for Ward at an early hour in the evening. Hert; it was observed, that it could be brought on to-MOrro ; ' b,,t, atter a few words frAm tilt. PON.. SONBY, the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. WHITBREAD, and Mr..BmtiNG, Mr.•BaAND eon sen:ed le postpone • his , motion to Friday, wiih an underitanding, that on . that day it would be sit: feted to precede the Orders. The Committee • then proceeded, with their ex aminations. The' last witness was again. cacallede The following witnesses afterwards gave evidence at the bar, viz. H. Dunbar, W. Barrister; T. Clark, R. Smith, Milwood, 11.• Watson, Mr. H.Croome, and Mr. Mitchener. Tile last witness to correct his.former,evidence. The House then resumed. The Chairm an re ported progre,s, and the Committee is to. sit again to-morrow (this day.) Mr.. WHITBREAD postponed his motion respell ing the Correspondence of Sir Jades Cr?tig and Mr. Henry until ThUr4cly che s t 4t b inst. At One o'Cloek this murninz. the Houso ad journed. •