The Sun. — London, England, 1812-02-05 00:00:00

which watt hut mall, consisted of those who urged hqestien as i l ueetion of right, and nut of ex . P'''lit'ecy, or of regulation, and consequently con tended that Parliament lied only to do its duty; and rem..ve the disabilities complained ot. The second class, of which he as one, were disposed to admit the expedien c y of removing the disabilities, but at the sa me t i me coupling the grant with such guards for the public security es it might be pr.:chcable to fs'llti• The third clan consisted of those who had never yet heard a plat - proposed, which they thought etrorded sufficient security from danger, it the Ca tholic Claims were? coueeded, and whose own minds Bi 3gested no plan from which they could hope to to_ „ htai : n that secefty. These were, theiefore, de- C rm t r iecl to retest the grant; but he had never yet things that might p oss ibly occur in the progress . human eveette, were resolved at all times to op pose the Prayer of the Catholics. Those of the r ; l : T a i t Class,' wh o consi d ere d t hi s as a quest i on o f c' It ' Were the persons who now pressed forward ,n go into a Commit tee on the subject. It was un fortunate fur the juiciest of the cause, that those Who thus contended the relief called for was only that to which th e C holies had a right, had ra ver been preva i led upon to b r i ng that question °an issue. I t was unfortunate thin they had a n : d 3t don e so, because of late the Catholics had con , ered it in this p o int of v i e w th emse l ves , an d i n L ic °n sequenc e turned the i r b icks on every thing like that might be proposed. With this feel mgb they had refused to concede !hat which they had L e e ell w illing to give before. They considered it to theirright ; that it had been too long withheld from 1 7rn, and that at all tines, and under any circum -I,hinces, they were entitled to have what they claimed. thisere were however so few in the class who were of is,oPinion, that could the question be brought to an • tup lc 'e it would be productive of considerab;e advan se The Patholics would findthe number of their ~lrPortQrs on 1 his ground ,o insignificant, they would l a it; content to give up all hope of getting the diiabi co*escomplained of removed, and endeavour to re- Iv "elle themselves to their present situation, or they s e °111(1 be teady to iistn with a favourable ear to such - I ,Viatious as it might be tho ug ht necessary to propos e . c are ! e cond class contended, that on a difficult and c Phcated matter, it would be improper to go into a u '" 11 “nittee in the hope of finding out sonic measure [ +night meet the case before them, which no iv ' du al was ready to propose in his place. He, go or • C ' ti e. would ne‘er, on such a suSjea, consent to w il nlto such a C omm i ttee . N o person , h e t h oug h t , .° looked into, the merits of the case, could say th .e 'e was ai present any thine to be discovered in mind (God forbid toot lie should say , t ,:ling existed there) to lead them to hope that they I._"°old ag ree to any p l an o f regulat i on. T he N oble 7 1 41 here Adverted to the couuua et: the Hon. Gent. v‘Wo had frequently brought the subjeca before the °v ° llse (Mr. G rattan ), o f w h om h e spo k e i n terms of jn'e highest admiration. That Hoa. Gentleman, vnugh he.had not thought it necessary to eAlet the : 63 in the first place a sine qua nod, had been of Pinion that much good was not to be expeaed tram o ra nting their prayer, unless some means w cie taken tilguard against its being taken advantage of by the eth l 3 . He understood him to have felt himself au h: r ,'sed to slate to the Catholic Body, that without v ' v ing some arrangement to that etfeel in view, it as hopeless to see - k redress from Parliament. He ii v I shed to know of that Hon. Gentleman. if he bad a ll Y thing of that nature to propose which he had 4 4 Y reaso n to believe the Catholic body woeld accede °' If there w e re a diffi cu lty i n time of attending 1 t he prayer, he thought it was highly improper 1 bii i : g i t f orwar d , merely to throw on Par 2ament the odium of opposing the expectations of th e Catholics, when the circumstances of the times, l at her than any indisposition on their part, precluded h e possibility of granting what was required. He ad heard that the C•ib,,lics could make tio arrange- Lii,eullt of that sort, witch he considered ne c essa ry, ~.."4 .' ut the consent of the Pope. They thought it h very wicked att in theta to exercise the mselves weat ti ev considered as his authority, N'bile h e a as-tit eleivity, and his orders while in ca p t ivity they felt thenee Ives bound not to obey.— "del' e cireolusianta (g.viog them credit for the `) lively feeling ot attachment e. owed towards him now they considered as toe head of their church) "le did not see how they would at all be enabled to pt over th at w hi. : h toe Hun. Gentleman himself 4(1 admitted to be a preliminary obstacle. He telt ; to be necessary that the Catholic Church- should be separated not wily from the patron.:ge of the See of Ituine, but he wts. ed to see it united with the r , - , t ate, which was not deemed itieonsisient with its kn ew by the Catholics of other countries. He "tt‘v of nothing that could be urged against this, ' ll loh wa s not an argume nt a g ain s t re li ev i n g t h em fr om the disabilities of which they complained. It ad been said, that without the coocession required, Was competent for Parliament to legislate, and t2tiditionally relieve the Catholics from their Z isabiliqes, ing it for them to take advan- Zge of the measure or not, as they might think pro- L' l % He was not preparce to say, that the Church wotild not be safe, it the House were of opinion it would be right to place ii Ott such a settlement, hut e thought he must be a bold Statesman who would t?l'`TOseyocb a measure, without obtaining a preli concession, and without well knowing the ot the Cat,olic laity and ecclesiastics. It a on the plan proposed were brought in, the laity would not be benefited by it, as they could not en- Joy the political principles it allowed them (not con ceding their claims to the full extent required), till 1 "e Eeelestasucal Body came into the a'rongement, • sad thus the law would remain a t:ead letter on the statute -book. The nresent time he thought was Wit Well chosen to bring, the subjea forw-td. This Was by no means the auspicious mome,,t for egitat ing•the question, as the Catholic mind was but pre pared to submit to the nee , ssaty regulation, auu the Protestants net conciliated by the late transactions, to `concede what he Catholics Oe.matided. At a f,nrner Period he had thought the obstacles to granting the Catholic claims ineeperable. This was his opinion when he retired from office in 1801, aid it was funded, nen on ly on the public: feeliag, but oo the 'scrupleis felt in another high quarter. These scru ,ples grew out of a feeling not to be conceded to the advice of any N.linster, and had the subject been pressed on the Crown, the effect of such a proceedibg would only nave been to force the Sove ;1„ reign to give that negative which the Constitution taables re_ . • sirable to avoid calling forth, Be himself had never thought the Coronation Oath mode particularly against the claims of the Catholics. He knew.of nothing in it that to him appeared to forbid legislaa nun on that subject; but it was evidently impos sible for the King to consent to grant what the Ca thohcs required, if he thought it might endanger the Constitution. On that occasion, he (Loyd Cas tlereagh) had only acted up to what he co ivied to be his duty, and he could see nothing, in o khe pre sent state of things, to lead him to think with ar, Hon. Gentleman opposite, that those difficulties were set at rest for ever. Of the Catholic meetings last suTumer, he wished to speak in the mildest terms. He thought them entitled to be treated with great rberality, as those who were in . the habit of attending popular meeting , , knew that a colour was often given them by particular speeches, which was not deserved by the proceedings altogether. If, how ever, the Convention Ad was not meant to put down such meetings as that to which it bad been applied, what was the Ad for ? If such a convention was not illegal, how could they bring a man to trial for belonging to any other ? After all that had been said by the Hun. Gentleman, what he had advanced only came to this, that if a doubt on the subjed could be rationally entertained, that doubt ought to be removed by Parliament. He thought no doubt could exist on the subjed ; but the Hon. Gentleman had thrown out doubts on the subjed of the convidion which. bad taken place. Did he mean to soy that the Irish Government should or could be carried on with such a Convention sitting in its neighbourhood ? If this were permitted, the Presbyterians and Threshers, or any other class, however dangerous, might call their conven tions and hold their sittings, as it had been proposed. Had the Irish Parliament still been in existence, be had no doubt but it would have known its duty, and put down such a body. The law, he stated to have been first framed to meet that spirit of overwhelming faction which had been imported from France to Ireland. He did not believe that the Catholics had any evil intention in meeting, any traitorous design of bringing about a revolution ; and as little did he believe that the meeting was called from a sober con vidion that it was necessary for the purpose of peti tioning ; but if the Government had so tar bended its neck as to permit the Convention to sit, the Catho lics were probably of opinion that it would give an authority to their diauni, and a weight to their re presentations, which otherwise they might not pos. • sess. If the Catholics were brought to felled, they would find it was their interest that such Conventions should not be permitted to assemble. The occurrences to which be bad alluded were un fortunate for the Catholics. They could not alter his general opieions on the subject, bee, they made him particularly averse to any change being made at the present moment. He thought it very ill judged ie them to oppose themselves to the Courts of law. He co feel, and he was sure the House must fee., how painful was the task imposed upon the Attorney General of Ireland, in being obliged to prosecute Lord Fingal, a Nohleman whose exem plary conduct in the worst of times had proved his loyalty and attachment to the Government.— If ultimately a triumph should be gained over the law, he contended it would still be to the disad vantage ot the Catholics. Adverting to their coin plaint ot the right of petitioning, he ehataeter.eed it as the most lame charge he ever remembered to have seen brought before Parliament. The whole of the Duke of Richmond's administration had baen marked, nut merely by forbearance, but by be nevolence. The whole of the proceedings of the Catholics in the late transactions he thought illegal, and hoped they would now shut the Cenvention book for ever, and return to the good old sound Constitutional practice of petitioning Parliament in their several, Counties, &c. and then their Petitions would have - more weight than if framed as it had been intended to frame ti em in a Convention. Never was there an assembly better disposed fairly to consider the claims of the Catholics, than the British Parliament. With respect to the propriety ot granting them at all, he thought there might be less danger than was apprehended.—The con cessions made, the real accession of Catholic power would not be vet)! great. Catholic influence found its way into that Heuse now. It had done so from the period ot tle ITeion, to the present time; -and he could not but consider it as an unnatural ope ration, for Catholic t .fluence to come thus through Protestant hands. The Catholic disabilities remov ed, he thought the C mstitution too strong to be much affeaed by the change, amid gave it as his opi nion that it would soon find its level. The whole pressed down together would enable Government to repress the errors of each party with e stronger band, to check the prejudices of each, arid hold the scales of justice poised more equally and more ad vantageously for both. Mr: WHITIII3.BAD thought the Nnble .Lord had contributed his full proportion to this most " discussion." He expressed his decided de termination, as it had always been, to vote for a, Committee. So far from concurring with the pro position, that the claims of the Catholics would be injured by discussion, he conceived that discussion would rescue them from that slavery to which they were condemned, and bring them into light and life. —lt was to repeated discussion alone they were in-. debted for those remaining privileges which they now possessed. The Noble Lord had stated a va riety of difficulties and dangers attending the discus sion, but it was his duty when he held office to have overcome those indispensable obje6tions, and to have secured the balance of security equally between the Catholic and Protestant church. He had Tint only araigned the purity of his Hon. Friend's (Lord Morpeth) intentions, but he had also extended that arraignment to his Right Hou. Friends Mr. Grattan . And Mr. Fox, for what he was pleased to term "the indefinite state" in which they had brought the goes lion turward. it belonged, therefore, to that Noble Lord, to have taken, when in wince, the question out of that detinit'e state. What was the condo:A of the Noble Lord ? Why, with respect to the veto, he stated that he had mood-between the Crown and the Catholics. In professing, therefore, to become i. the .champion of the Cat holies, he shrank from his allegiance and duty to the Crown, in advising his Majesty not to apply tie Veto to aa Aet passed. — What was the candtid of Mr. Pitt in that respea ? Why he retired from office, because he CJiali not carry into effeet the pledge which he had given to the Catholics, because the King in person objetied rn. _ e _ -Kt L 1 T nniAittlilrff , did not therefore stand between the Crown and the people. With respea. to the Union, it was true, there was no pledge given, but there was an under standing that the claims would not only be statedi but urged, and to this understanding Mr. Pitt an d the other Government Officers, with Lord Can wallis, were parties. Did the Noble Lord think he -could have effe&ed the Union without that feeling among the Catholics ? When, theref o re, he com plained of the want of a:specific plan in the proposi tions of the advocates for the Catholics, it was his, (Lord C.'s) duty to have named one; but it was now too late for the Noble Lord to tell the House there were sach insuperable difficulties, that the demands could not be complied with. The Ca tholics had not the means of arranging these matters, for their meetings were deemed by one verdict of a jury illegal, though another jury had pronounced them legal. The Hon. Gentleman complained that the Secretary of State for the Home Department had not given such attention to the state of Ireland, with respect to the issuing of the Proclamation, as was consistent with the duty he owed the Empire; but he supposed he was too much occupied with the care of the county, and the nightly watch. He then adverted to the arguments of the Right Honourable and Learned Civilian, on the previous night, who seemed to entertain a wish that, for the security of the State, and to oaequilize Ireland, the whole of the penal code was re-eneaed. Even the N.-Jole Lord disclaimed such an idea ; he only meant te shut the door against indefinite discussions; but every person who had spoken on that side of the House had agreed, that though the present was not the proper time for granting the concessions, yet that time must arrive. He then noticed the example which was held out in the instance of Gen. Cole's re ceiving the thanks of the House, for his gallant conduct at Albuera ; to the Catholics, in our army and navy, as exhilirating in the highest degree, and as a stimulus -to exertions. But what hopes could the parents of children destined for these professions entertain, when their brave and gallant children, fighting the battles of their country, and expeaing, as they deserved, the highest rank, were denied by this insuperable bar ; for they could not hold a higher rank than that of Lieutenant-Colonel, and therefore could not receive the thanks of the repre sentatives of a free people. Under such circum stances, was - it strange that people should feel some . t degree of exasperation, that because they were Ca- + tholics, they were stigmatized ? Would they not, in stead of entering into the . service of their country, seek for employments abroad ? It had been so—the names of Lacey, of Sheldon, and of O'Farrell, were in the recolle6tion of the House; the battles of Blen heim, of Malplaquet, and of Fonienoy, were in stances of the truth of these observations. Would it not be as prudent to brigade them in the British service, as to brigade them against their country ? He might apply the quota ion of the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. C.' Adams to the brilliant display of the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr, Canning) cloquentice sapientice satis !—His speech was not convincing, for it did not convince the Right Hon Gentleman himself; and though he • took his full flight, and, his plumage was most bril liant, when he endeavoured to convince every body of the necessity of voting for the proposition of his Noble Frend, he could not obtain his own Tire public mind, notwithstanding all that the Right Henousehle Gevelemate had said, would : not be tran quilized until the concessions were ewe. m uc h had been said about meanacing attitudes; history had furnished pools of the folly of waiting for these attitudes. Queen Elizabeth knew .s hat was neces sary for the security of the State with respe& to eie concessions she made to the Low Countries. Did not. the Government of a later dice talk of attitudes with resin& to America, arid would not yield 3 But when America was in a menacing attitude, they were compelled to yield, and now, instead of having to contend with rehels, as they were styled, this country had to combat with an independent people. The Honourable Gentleman recommended strongly the necessity of concessions, and instanced the hap py state of the Swiss Cantons worshipping as they did for 290 years in the same Church, though pro fessing different religionS, and that happy state might have continued but for the cursed interrup tion of the French. He also instanced the conduct of Henry IV. of France, with respell to the Edid of Nantz, and the concessions made to the Hugo riots, in opposition to the advice of his Protestant Minister, Sully. He then commented on the con dud of the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland, with respell to the issuing of the Proclamation, and the details of the proceedings as stated by the Right Hon. Secretary. He contended, that the Catholics could not be represented in a mass, but only by de legation, on account of the vast numbers of that body (the Catholics). The Convention AOl, in his opinion, had been strained. He noticed the receps Lion which the Delegates from Ireland met with in 1793, from Mr. Secretary Dundas, who, at their re quest, introduced them to tire King, who received them graciously, and told them that he would re commend to his Parliament to grant the conceseons which they demanded. Delegates had been con stantly received from English bodies. The Right Honourable Jiecreiary had charged his Hon. Friends with what they had not uttered, while riding in his post chaise, and reading the debates in the news paper, 'he takes for granted as true, all that The Morning . Post ci.ose to put in their mouths, and then attack them for it. He had no leer for the Established Church from the concessions being granted ; if it did fall, it must -be by indolence and want of foresight. The Hon. Gentleman concluded a very long speech, by recommending the adoption I of tire motion. Lord CASTLEREAGH, in explanation, made a few observations, denying that he had osed the word "disclosed," as applied.. by the Hon. Gnatleman. Mr. CANNING disc;airried the • version of every part of . hi..speech to which the Hon. Gentleman had referred. Mr. Secretary RYDER considered that it would have amounted to a criminal violation of the tru3t repoSect in the , Government, if they had neglected to take measures for preventing the meetings, and to enforce the provisions of the Convention Act.-- Tt►e Right Hon. Secretary then recapitulated the statement made by the Eight Hon. G::ntle►nan (Mr. Pole), with respe&•t to the measures pursued on that occasion. D►d the Honourable Gentleman mean to contend that Government were to have waited until the object of the meetings was corn - the sta nlete before they decided on nutting OltC force ? The •construction which had been put on the Ait was the legal 011 r. The eh-4ms of the Catholics were not recognized by the cowl ry at large—there was a general and prevalent disp sition against them, which lad been Increased in comee quence of their late proceedings, and be was not pre- ',I I ; pared to admit that mischief would not arse froth these treqnent discussions. The A.TTCONEINGENERAL vindicated, itt much length, the cbodott of th e Law O ffi cers and the Judges of the. Irish Bench in giving the opinion which they had delivered —• hat the meeting of the Catholic Delegates was a viol Lion of the Convention Ad. The Honourable and Learned Genth-mdn en teredinto an able exposition of that Al, and proved, that whatever might have been the intention of the Catholics in forming those assenitlies, wt.ether sim ply and sincerely for the purpose of petitiining, or for the ILL therance of soLte other purposes, those assemblies (the Attorney-General said), constituted as they were, llad rightly been considered infractions of the law. M 0..?) also had been said in disappro bation of the warrant issued by the Lord Cite - Jus tice of Ireland, ati.i o! !!.c..: charge delivered by_that respeaahle Judge to he Jury.—Sir V. Gibbs here read several passages from that charge, ;o shew that there I.=,:ts nothing in it hostile to the general cha taaler ;nd rilietttions of the Catholic body. and that thereft•te the censure cast upon it was entirely desti tute of tnundation. But why canvass, much 1.251 censure, the Judges in that House ? 'Chose Judges had a,led upon a sworn responsibility. Ilat House Was not the proper and competent ttilyinal below which to arraign their opinions and decisions; and if, in these opinions and decisions,, there was any thing reprehensible, there was another and a mote proper place where their conduct might be ctitnpetently investigated, and their decisions rec tified, if they should appear to have .been erro neous. Mr. PONSONEY animadverted with much severity on the speeches of IVIr. W. Pole, Mr. Canning, and Lord Castlereagh. Mr. Pole seemed to forget, throughout the whole of his speech, that the real question before the Howie was the perilous situation of Ireland ; and seemed only to suppose, like the Parish Clerk in Pope, that the sole busine,s to be attended to was the vindication of his own conduit, and the assertion of his own dignity. The Right ,Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Canning) had argued one way, and voted the other. He contended, that in consequence of the motion, of which an Honourh. able Friend of his (Mr. Hutchinson) hdd given no tice, for the Repeal of the Union, it was impossible now to entertain the Petition of the Irish Catholics; so that, it the motion for the Repeal of the Uniorl were deferred from day to day, and not brought for ward at any period of the Session; neither could the Catholic Petition be discussed, nor any attention paid to the claims of that highly respedable body.— There were, it was true, those who would grant no concessixt at all, beciuse the granting any must en danger the c3tablishments in Church and State. In what quarter did those d. , ngers exist ) By what means was the Protestant Church to be subverted ? Was it the Catholics who were to olerthrow it and if so, by what meant were they to accomplish that overthrow ? Was it by force ? If so, had they not as much force now to compass that design a. they ever had, or were likely to have ? And if it %VC not by lo:ce they were to subvert it, by what other means ? Wes it by associating__ in their plan the Irish Protestants If so. are those Gentle preparerf to say that the Irish Protestants would lend,their aid in des; t oying t heir owoCuurch Surely this would be bordering very cl .se on Absur dity. Bat it would only oe of a rem with most of the arguments that had been used against the mo tion of his Noble Friend. For several ye try back it had also been objected to the Catholic Petition that their Nobilny were adverse to it. At another time it was said that the Catho!ic Clergy were against it, and that it had not been signed by any of their Priests, or even one of their Prela.es. Nor was that all ; on other occasions, and by other Gen lemett, it was objected, that though the Irish Nobility, Cleagy, and Gentry, might be in favour of the petition, yet the great mass of the lower orders of that pursuasioti were wholly indifferent about its success. The Ca tholics observed and felt all these objeaions, and were anxious to remove them, as they have on -all occasions invariably been to remove every cause of complaint and dissatisfaction at their conduct. How could they most effectually obtain their end ?—Why by endeavouring so to coiled the universal opinion of their boJy. as to obviate all objections. They accordingly set . tck work, in order to collect the opi nions and wishes of all the classes of their body.— They chose from among Their Nubility, their Pre lacy, and their Gentry, those in whom they most trusted, to meet and manifest the general wishes and opinion. But no sooner did they make this at tempt, which they fondly conceived must silence r:very objection, when a new cry is raised apinsc them, that such meeting of their Nobility, Prelacy, and Gentry, could only have for its object to coa,ti-. tote an assembly of the three Estates, which would beard Patliatuent, and nose the very Goven, MCI] meetings whion were itumecii.tely :de clared to be illegal, and as sccli put down.— Ile did nct exp.:a that much weight shocld be attached ro his opinion, but he would ho nestly declare that opinion, and assert, that in his concepion of the matter, there was nothing illegal in these tneetHip - s, They were no vlo lalion of the Convention Ad. The Catholics who so assembled, asstfm'aled for no other puipose in the world than that of petitioning, and petitioning in such a manner as to obviate every objection that ' Vha:l hitherto been started against the nature of. their petition. In his mind, therefore, they had not offended against the Contention Ad, or vio!ated any law, and yet they have been. treated as if thy were guilty of the most flagrant offences. How, then, could it be expected that their conduct would be speak the feelings of satit , faCtion, acquiescence, and suarnission i Was it more than natural, that, fail ing in their attempts to please, they should feel di.- appoi_utrnent, and utter the language, and assume the mien which indicated such feelings land such a state of mind ? Their feelings of disappointment are then cunstraed into a manifestalion of menace, their attitude into that of defiance ; and these a2,a n ate immediately made the ground for refusing to concede' any of their claims. This was an unwise: cooduCt ;, the experience of all history, patOen 131 - 1 V our own history, demonstrated that inanruclz.nce.-- Such was the conduct we tad pursued toword, America. Her people WPrP r-