The Sun. — London, England, 1846-08-18 00:00:00

MP! THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY . MORNING, AUGUST 18, 1846, toed la d the First Commissioner of Woeds and Forests ar heeesented to allow the statue to if placed on the p. e sv fo ra period of three weeks, and if it ware nit .*•° 01 at the end ef that time, it was to be pulled down. arl l" la) Now wile decia- whether the eta s ti iv, r, ' . it • wisle o tsksi, S.Lyi lLir , ltb P ' • ' l 4 wla whether Naha , 1,4 , a had any obieetti.,,se„eto, aa h l ) " tit,, table a the Reuse the con , elie it kitk "(1 tak 'n Wave n the s ubject, in or ler l tlbe h t , s t „ ni Vit be printed and circulated amongst Honot ra dal, he At all events, however, it the Noble Lord d aetio t e l , shenld, early next session, move for their pro mitt .c Lora "urbi H said finding th a t the euheote , °T aal m e ` l ". d all the are; ehiah had lately been stat ue t° them, he had consented to ail the , tib to be p l aced upon the arch far three weeks, the 4 in e°ronsittee undertaking i n the event of its nc tit s g, then ap proved of to restore the arc h and jest s iits original pos . tion : of course her Ma the'' s ub' G ov ernm ent aa tj ai,,J,eet, and upon that advice the question ett s ,: i t unately be decided. The correspondence was ve le . -e q Lag, involving as it did matters of contro esuici and he trusted the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman s• ~,not press for its production till next session. ctiv i h r •••• TRENCH added a few words in confirmation isini at had fallen from the Noble Lord, the First Corn sl otter 14ea of Woods and Forests, and said, notwithsta"d th at e _Punch had said, and what . had fallen from the tea time Member For Dumfries, the sub-committee atel a e nlaitied of opinion that the arch was the best Th e appropriate site which could be procured. s hos e Earl of LINCOLN said as the three week o st occur when London might be said to be s as ,,°f town, he trusted in the event of the Paths of the statue being approved of, the scaffolding ranand not be removed till the public had returned to ra Yll ma ratified the decision with their approval.— r, hear.) pens PROTFIEROE suggested that a good deal of ex th. w ould be sa v ed by placing a wooden model upon arch first. t Ord eret,i• MORPETH thought not. The works for the es s • e a l ° 4 of the statute were nearly complete, and the b e r 1 18 e of placing the statue upon the pedestal would tnai Man g* tter then dropped. SMALL DEBTS BILL. fir is sr REY intimated that it was not his intention st3,:arieg. GREY intimated that it was not his intention on the Small Debts Bill to-day, but he pro - -"" to do so the first thing to-morrow. FLOGGING IN THE ARMY. lisa r * .CINVRING rose to ask the question of which he his ,g l .ven notice. Before doing so, he must express to ausfaction at the alteration which had been made f ur referene e to the flogging in the army, and he must T e r express his greater satisfaction that the Noble 4111 another at the head of the army had stated r ennin place that tee matter was not to tee flogging iatilotongewthelvr aasab,neylibsuhte abolished.—(Hear, that il e h a e r, hoped hearo yet H t i o s question was whetherlire iatended instructions have been or be issued, regulating the character of tits instrument with whi c h flogging in the army is to be ttlitincbtaendd,laes, rtehgeards the size, the weight, the length of number and thickness of the cords or ti e s Rs, the size and number of the knots ; also, deter ; i n il e ni what f unctionaries are to be charged wit o h d th oi tim eis n n of corporal punishment, and what is . to be allowed between each blow ; also, peri whether, ,h s t itact the medical attendant shall certify that it would be ta;g er ° ll s to continue the flogging, any unapplied °!. file punishment is to be reserved for a second . auti e o t a len ; also, whether it is intended that the dinn alai,- to fifty lashe s shall apply to the European and the teass, nv r of the East India Company ; and whether arl -e rntrient will consent to make annual returns to tr rov ta mest of the corporal punishments employed in the ilieQ tlln s number of lashes, the offences for which m- Lestiatian RUSSELL what species of court-martial ordered. best' • RUSSELL said he could not an the !its Mons which the Hon. Member had put categorically, would say that the N o bl e D u ke the Commander istswet had stated, i n anot h er p l ace , w h a t were his Ivesicilna re garding this punishment in future, and it tea s °l' improper in him (Lord J. Russell) to pre 4see ag in g further into the matter than had then doubter The intention was to restrict the nua t •,a of lashes to fifty, and there was no s e , fla •aere was every intention that the instruments to late t t e r led would be of a uniform character, and regu a4n y , the medical authorities. Respecting whether e , tisegerula medical attendant certified there would b 4 1)pa si 111 continuing the punishment, the un ''eee%in portion would be given on a second e ters ,be would observe that there was tishtn erooability that the reserved portion of the pu tnlatissellt would not be inflicted. With respect to the _ 'eir trop they were regulated by articles of war of the i n ° lv o, and there was no doubt, relation sia-Caritish troops were known out there, that oho i t ar airir,anaernent would take place. He (Lord threease4B7a-) had no objection to the annual returns of t a re -° gginrs which were also sought by the Hon. kitiourabl Ile nault say, at the same time, that the e th oelleat t h at Gentlem an and the House would re "'le Noble Duke did not state re and ceatteration now proposed to be a final eonsicletrotea tneetaure• The subject was still under the tim e to t' tl -},°` the •Co mander-in-Chief, and from ,_aunishoselTpteosnes.iebiew.:ld make m such alterations in the to reduce its amount and frequency as bath as (Cheers.) He could assure them Would b e 4 ° Nect the Government would have in view Of this be 10 diminish as much as possible the frequency Plin e of punishment, and to maintain the disci jstrof,Lhe army by other measures.—(Hear, hear.) tha / C q uuLLER said nothing could e b s e am m e or o ej e m n g e r . ope l r t flogging a man twic r e o f c o c r asions, but having been deep t° be done on forme a l a rea illegal, it was given up, and never occurred in e as _ k_al now. regal r • WILLIAMS wished to . know if the same m s tons were to be applied to the navy as hes t ° the army. He thought they were -,e su sera rY there as in the army, and he hoped that both tea s 'nes would be placed on the same footing. He e ' • full 4t ed the Noble Lord would give the subject his Niesideration. isfa it P t ain BERKELEY said no punishment was ever the ea in the navy without its being fully reviewed by Bog ar d, of Admiralty. Whenever the subject of fat e rg, m the n av y came un d er discussion, he would sai a "'Y state hi s v i ews . H e b e li eve d no li ne - o f-battle fl e r n°tlldes be kept i n di sc ipli ne w ithout the power of ggin kr • VP .044 of aseaLEY hoped that, even under the mitigated IvooldiPUnisbnient to be adopted, the strictest orders Sqet, n e issu e d f or i ts regu l at i on . Whil e on this sub LOrd would refer to what had fallen from a Noble e Istei4n another place, in which he impugned t t av - the jury . in a recent case as con- TV to aat la the evidence adduced.—(Hear, hear.) that i r , °Die Lord without any responsibility declared Thick a WhiClact, the jury had acted contrary to the oaths on N O were inapannelled to investigate the case B •Neain c ' ll 'a le Lord might to have at least made himself ° ta n a n P e ' - i lv a „ iti l the faCts of the case before he ventured_ - -e v ° in, and least, were he dissatisfied with vest . erdiet giveut at mved for a Committee to in subject the n dropped. M. se POOR-LAWS. i7 et nbe r — °RTIIWICK hoped that as the Hon. f o r Montrose had a motion for to-morrow at the re the - 1 discussion , subject of the Poor-law Commission, eth er ? was n o l i k e li hoo d o f th ere b e i n g a House and to m at its the Government would take the •Q doterinto their own hands. From what they had alr ea d y in regard to the Poor-law Commissioners , h an e d ° B 4l d leave the matter with confidence in their Ap t in P r a "INTMENT OF MR. THOMAS GORDON. G. BENTINCE rose to as k t h e quest i on o f kie lch he h a d g i ven notice, in reference to the appoint tisaat of a gentl eman as a mag i strate w h o was repre 'l"l to h ave b een convicted in the Court of Exchequer nnr defrauding the revenue. He had not in the O l eo mentioned the name of the individual, as ho of t Pe there might have been two individuals hat name. He would now, however, mention the ta t p of t h e art "' I was Mr. Thomas Gordon, who, It 1 . 1831, was convicted before before Lord Lyndhurst , then the Lord Chief Baron of the Exchequer, and fined 800/. for 4 sing an imitation Government stamp in calico Printing, with the object of defrauding the revenue. The Noble h Lord concluded by asking ; h e question whic was placed on the notice papa 44 th e following terms:—To ask Lord J. Russell 4 n , t ihestion with rt gard to the appointment , by the late ellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, of a gentleman as It e l bagistrate within the jurisdiction of the Duchy, said to been formerly concerned in defrauding the Excise. Quite unable to defend himself from the charge, this ge ntleman withdrew his plea and submitted to a penalty ) as i 8001 - And yet this was the man whom the pr eseut r ve rnment had elected to sit upon the magisterialbench 41 the count f Lancashire. Ile might be told that there had " been Y ‘ o orne understanding that he should not bat4",`,Y for the performance of magisterial duties, t ‘na t was not enough. It was a disgrace to the l'l re a tZ t rales of Lancashire to have such a man on the same th e t h emselves. He wished, therefore, to know from Che r Lord at the head of the Government whe tu-ker, thi s Ass Gorton, of Lancashire, was the gentleman .d fraud"ad, a few ears ago, been convicted of having e s _ 1 .4 4! the Excise. d `*T- RUSSELL said that he believed the Noble h had correctly stated that Mr. Gordon, who r " e nti been placed upon the roll of Lancashire e illt,,agiatratesYby the Chancellor of the Duchy was n the ltacise. But Lord Campbell, ', 4•S 'a who had been convicted, in 1831, of a b fr a a n u e d el o lor of 14leaster, finding that such a person the present C had been ap- P(iirit ed to the commission of the peace, had a corre tPoudence on the subject, which (Lord J. of " which that Lobe" l) had not yet seen, bu t t him the result. I, 4or n d le Lord had communicated u C ampbell stated that Mr. Gordon had been placed P 4l etae Commission of the peace without any _ e tatio f his own and he (Lord Campbell), therefots• tallt,°llaht that it would . net be right to inflict upon him the si' ma rernovino• him immediately from the commis- then of the peace, because it might then seem to him a t he had been nominated to the magistracy merely t ' n h,„. !he total pre' purpose of disgracing him. It was , eiore, t s t u o g g g ,. e ia st li e f il y to Mr. Gordon that he should himself as a magistrate. He (Lord t , : e hn eor l r tu es s p si o ll) de h :te l ; not, as he had already stated, seen but when he had seen it he would make a further statement to the n . House as to what was tetencled to be done on this subject. Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET detailed the cir notestances connected with th e a ppointment of Mr. Gordon u i t he magi ster i al bench. An error had certainly CGv asa 'ao committed in the selection of Mr. selectio n he could assure the House that , was not prompt . ed . by an impure motive. beaaaautation of gentlemen originally waited upon him '• ° re the selection, representing thet, in consequence of deaths, failures, &c., the magistrates of Lancashire had become inadequate in point of numbe r to the perform- I ante of their duties; they presented a list of such gentle- ' men as they considered fit to be appointed t o the mee,d.o racy, and amongst those was the name of M. G +Mon. N ;w, it had always been his custom, wn•lst t onreh of the Duchy of Leneaeter. to inquire in 0 the reiaracter of such es he umninated to the megis tree)... but, owing to an aeeideet, he had cot been able,in this ieetance to institute an inquiry into the cir curnetane , s and character of M:. Gordon. It had been represented to him that Mr. Gordon had for many ye :rs occupied a very high and re st eetahle position in the netehbourhood in weeeh he resided Ia consequence, however, of a communication from one of the Honourable Members for Mencheete r, he made full inquiries into the character of Mr. Gordon, and the re sult was a series of communications between himself, Mr. Gordon, and other individuals. To ascer tain the truth of the charge as to the alleged fraud on tne Excise, he (Lord G. Somerset) wrote to the Excise officers, and was fully informed of the suit that had been commenced against Mr. Gordon a few years ago, for having forged a Government stamp and defrauded the Excise. The inquiry into the charges against Mr. Gordon were in progress when he (Lord Granville Somerset) tendered to her Majesty his seals of office, and he considered that the Noble Lord (Lord Campbell), who had succeeded him in office, would act on this subject in a manner that would be satisfactory to all parties. That was the explanation which he had to make. He could ssure them that it bad been re presented to him that Mr. Gordon was a gentleman of the highest respectability, and he (Lord Granville Somerset) did not in this matter consider himself to have been guilty of anything more than an error, of which any person might in similar circumstances have been guilty. The House having resolved itself into Committee on the Public Works (Ireland) Bill, DISTRESS IN IRELAND. Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose, and said that he took that opportunity of calling the attention of the House to the present state of distress in Ireland, and in doing so he should consider it his duty to refer to what had been done at the end of last year, and during the spring of this year by the former Government on the subject of the failure of the patoto crop, and whatever sorrow he might feel in having to bring the sub ject of the present state of the potato crop in Ire land before the House, yet he should endeavour in doing so to avoid any discussion which might give rise to any party division or excite any controversy on the subject. The Committee would recollect that towards the end of the last year considerable alarm was felt with regard to the state of the potato crop in Ireland and some parts of Scotland. He thought that it was unnecessary to state that that arose from the unforeseen failure, to a very great degree—and to a greater degree than on usual occasions—in the harvest of a country or appre hended scarcity. And he would state three circum stances which he thought were calculated to inspire the Government and the public at large with very considerable apprehension upon that subject. And one of those circumstances was, that potatoes being one of the chief and the lowest kind of food, the failure in the crop of potatoes, which was the chief article of nourishment of the great mass of the people, there was no kind of food of a cheaper or lower description to which the population could have resorted for support. Such was the distinction between a country, the popula tion of which chiefly fed upon potatoes, and other countries, the population of which chiefly fed upon wheat, a higher description of food. Another circumstance which was to be ob served was, that the disease in the potatoes was to a great degree unknown; none could tell to what extent it had been carried, or how great the loss of the crop would eventually turn out to be If the crop were wheat or barley, failures would be seen in some six weeks or two months before harvest time, and a calculation could be made by which one might ascertain what was the amount of the deficiency in the quantity of the crop, and how much of that description of food might be required from other countries for the supply of the people. The third cir cumstance which he would mention was one which was connected with the others which he had stated, and that was, that a great proportion of the people of Ireland were in a state verging upon desti tution in a state of very great poverty and suffering. That had been ascertained and stated repeatedly in statistics and documents which had been laid before Parliament. The report of the Commissioners on the poor-law inquiry—the report of the Land Commission, over which Lord Devon presided—the re port of the Commission on the census—all told them that the greater proportion of the people of Ireland lived in a state of extreme poverty ; that, in fact, they did not re ceive wages which enabled them to pay for the food which they required. They received wages only during a portion of the year, and those of a very low amount, and during a considerable portion of the year they were fed upon potatoes of a very inferior kind. Those reports informed them that, in the first place, there was a great number of what were called con • acre farmers, who rented a plot of land conjointly with others ; above them was another class, who, although they were called a higher class of farmers, were yet very little above those he had just named. There was also another and a lower class, who were maintained by the funds brought forward for the relief of the country. These three circumstances were calcu lated to induce the Government of this country to look with very considerable alarm at the prospect before them. He was not adverting then to any other measures which the Government thought it necessary to take. They took measures which, in his opinion, were directly applicable to these evils. The first measure they took, as he found by a minute cr letter of the Treasury of the 9th of December, was to order a quantity of Indian corn to be procured by the house of Baring and Co., in the ports of this country, or from foreign countries. With respect to this measure, it was to be observed that it was very wisely, and likewise, he might say, with great good for tune contrived that this for a long time was kept a secret both here and inlreland. The arrival of that supply was' not known at the time whenit came. No expectations were held oat, and therefore none were raised by its arrival, and it had much less injurious effects in disturbing the re gular trade of the country than it might have done if it had been expected. Another measure to which the Go vernment had recourse was to grant donations in aid of subscriptions. There were subscriptions collected in Ireland to a very large amount, and many of them from some of the very poor amongst the farmers. These subscriptions thus received amounted to the sum of 100,0001. Another measure which the Government took at the commencement of this session was, to pro pose that there should be public works prosecuted by certain powers, and the authorities of the Irish county sessions should be empowered to make such works, pro vided that one-half of the expense of such works which might be advanced was to be repaid, and that the other half should be defrayed by grants from the Treasury. Another measure, which was proposed and carried in this House, was, that by a general present ment the sums advanced for the purposes of these public works should all be repaid within the usual time. Now the amount, the general amount in money of all these measures, was stated in a book which had been presented to that House, and which was called " A Correspondence relative to the Measures of Relief of the Distress occa sioned by the Failure of the Potato Crop in Ireland." The first item in the book was for the purchase of Indian corn and oatmeal, of which the expense amounted to 155,432/.; the second was for sums issued in donations in aid, and was 67,911/.; the third was for works autho rised to be executed under the Act 9th Victoria, chap. 1, for the relict of distress in Ireland, and was to the extent of 452,7271.; the fourth item was a sum authorised to be advanced under the 9th Vic., and which amounted to 133,536/. The sth, 6th, and 7th items were smaller sums, which were empowered to be applied in cases of great emergency. These, with the amount taken by the the wvi; ttcahahmtihoo regard are t r o e dnbineg granted e r t oan , Board of Works, altogether amounted to 852,481/., and ad n pttilidnd theaonof df t h ere a vex t ipip w asey a en n s d 4 e d 94, w B i s t l h / o . 12,; T t h h e e exm wh t ich was th 3 is s7, l 6 a 3 r o g l e . expense was intended to prevent, and with regard to the fund itself, there was a great deal of in formation which any Member of that House might find by reading the voluminous correspondence which had just been presented to the House. With regard to the evils in the country, it would be found, as might have been expected from what he had already said, that the amount of the evil was differently calculated at different times, and in fact had not been as yet completely ascertained. In the first accounts they could find it was stated that if they took the four provinces of Ireland the deterioration of the potato crop was about one-fourth. It was afterwards said by Colonel M`Gregor that it was estimated at about one-eighth, and it was subsequently stated by other authorities that it amounted to one-half of the whole crop. These sort of matters it was, of course, difficult to ascertain, but what he thought they might well believe, and which was already ascer tained from the reports, was, that there was a very great failure in the potato crop, and it was extremely destruc tive to the crop in 1845. The disease was not one pecu liar to Ireland or Scotland last year—it was a disease known in various parts of the continent of Europe and elsewhere, and in various parts of America. He had before him the first statements made in 1845 by direction of the colonists of the United States, and also other statements made in answer to the orders of the authorities here, from which it appeared to be a 'disease known for some years in America ; it was called the " rust." It first appeared in 1835, and in consequence of it a considerable portion of the potato crop was lost ; and in 1845 it became of a more virulent and destructive nature than was ever known before. Thus far it was ascertained that with respect to the measures which were then taken, and of which he had been speaking, their effect in Ireland had been exceedingly beneficial. They were confirmed in that belief from the various ac counts of the effect produced by the different mea sures to which he had alluded, and which showed that places where the people were entirely deprived oi food and employment, employment and food were afforded, and in other places where the people were almost driven to desperation, and in a state prepared fot an outbreak —where there was danger to the tran quillity of the country, and a feeling of discontent—that feeling was changed into one of satisfaction and pl e asure. Otte of the letters to which he had alluded, was a letter from Mr. Russell with regard to the state of the county of Clare ; he stated that with regard to that county - there were a greater number of persons employed than any ocher county in Ireland—that the operations of the hoard of Works, considering the materials on which they had to operate, were progressing satisfactorily, and that not a single longer. He could assure the Committee and the House that he considered that his predecessors in office had shown a laudable anxiety to meet those evils. The remedies which they applied were remedies suited to the occasion, and he would endeavour to imitaSe the spirit in which they acted, and take advantage of the expe riene which they had eetined, and also endeavour to correct those errors wh;cli were certain to attend so unusual a state of things. He should, therefore, conclude by moving that a grant of 175,0001. should be voted for the payment of Exchequer-bills, and also that a further sum of 50,0001. should be voted to defray the expense of public works in the poor districts of Ireland. In answer to a question put by Mr. HUNIE, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it was not the intention of the Government to import any food into the country ; and read two letters which he had received from merchants upon the subject, in which it was hoped the Government would not interfere with the operations of commerce, and that the supply of Ire land might now be safely left to the merchants, and that if it were so, they would be able to sell India corn at the rate of id. per pound. Mr. D. BROWNE thought that the speech of the Noble Lord at the bead of the Government was calcu lated to inspire a feeling of confidence in the Govern ment. He had received a number of letters from the county which he had the honour to represent (Mayo) con tainirs, the must fearful details ef the present condition and the future prospects of the people of that country. The speech of the Noble Lord was ominous of much good to the country, and he hoped that the people would infer that the intentions of the present Government were to advocate a system of generous policy for that coun try. fhe late Government had deserved great credit for the course they had taken last year when the distress was so great in the country. He trusted that the attention of the Government would be called to the necessity of doing something to put an end to the people of Ireland devoting themselves solely to agricultural pursuits, and that some inducements would be held out to them to consider manufactures. He thought the law cf landlord and tenant in that country ought to be altered, and other improvements made, or a repeal of the union granted. Mr. WILLIAMS thought that the distresses of the people of Ireland should not be relieved by taxation on the people of England, but of the landlords of Ireland. He considered that a well-digested system of poor-laws in that country would be productive of great benefit. Mr. LABOUCHERE defended the proposal of the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, and stated that that proposal required the landlords of Ireland to bear the burdens of that country; but, in order that they might do so effectually, the Government offered them the assistance stated by his Noble Friend at the head of the Government. The state of Ireland at present was so extraordinary, that it required extraordinary measures to meet them. He believed that the course pursued by the late Government, in sending meal to Ireland, was, under the circumstances, a most wise one. The Corn Bill was not then passed, and the trade in corn was not then free. The case was different now, and he believed it would be most unwise on the part of the Government to make themselves mer chants, and in that character supply the people with meal. It was impossible to see what was going on in Ireland now, and not come to the conclusion that it would be impolitic on the part of the Government to interfere with either the pro vision or the labour-market of a country. He trusted that by rendering it. the interest as well as the duty of the landed proprietors of Ireland to employ the poor of that country they should have provided an effec tive and wholesome remedy for the anticipated distress. Lord LINCOLN complained of the manner in which the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the House had alluded to the measures of the late Govern ment. Had they or the officers employed under them been guilty of such a dereliction of duty as that alleged by the Right Hon. Gentleman they would have deserved the condemnation rather than the praise of the Noble Lord who had introduced this subject to the House. — (Hear.) But he was happy to say the charge was ground less, and he believed the conduct and policy of Sir R. Ralph was opposed by every body on both sides of the House. The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that the grossest abuses had existed in the administration of the affairs of the Board of Works, but he could give the assertion the nost unqualified denial.—(Hear, hear.) He by no neans denied that abuses del exist, because it was im possible to prevent them, but they had not existed to one-fifth part of the extent alleged by the Right Hon. Gentleman. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said the effect of the measures of the late Government was to demoralize the habits of the labouring population of Ireland. Well, if they had, all that he could say was, that the present Government was most unwisely follow ing the footsteps of their predecessors in office. He was glad, however, to see that no English Member had yet risen to object to what the Noble Lord had pro prosed.—(Hear, hear.) Not even the most rigorous economist of the public purse, the Hon. Member for Coventry, had objected to it, and he was glad of it, be cause it would go over to the sister country that no matter what Government might be in power, the poor of that country would be as much cared for as the poor of England.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) Under.the operation of the provisions adopted by the late Government a most beneficial trade had been created in Indian meal, a trade which was now likely to be permanent. But, though this trade had been created and fostered by the late Government, he did not think that the present Government should continue to be traders in the sense the former one had been; and he fully agreed with the course that was now proposed to be taken. Under the circumstances, so satisfied was be with what the Noble Lord had stated, that he (Lord Lincoln) would not ask him any questions as to the details of the course he intended to pursue, but would rest satisfied with the exalanations ho had given in his speech. He must, however, before sitting down, bear his testimony to what the Noble Lord had stated re specting the praiseworthy manner in which the officers employed under the Government had carried out their arduous and difficult duties. No body of men could have acted in a more becoming manner, and he hoped they would be continued in any future effort to be made to meet the exigencies of the people of Ireland. Mr. LABOUCHERE explained that in the observa tions he had made, he did not for a moment intend to impugn or underrate the policy and measures adopted by the late Government, but he only rose to point out the danger and difficulties that surrounded the fol lowing out of such a policy beyond meeting the urgent necessities of the case under which they then acted. Mr. HENLEY said that after the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland it was impossible to infer whether the measure now pro posed was to be temporary or not. America had already for four years suffered from a failure in the potato crop, and the potato disease there bad not yet disappeared. In Ireland the people had already suffered two years from the potato disease; there was no probability of that disease being yet extinguished ; and he was afraid that in future years further relief would have to be sought on behalf of the people of that country by the British Government. This proposal would show the Irish people that the Government and people were more favourably disposed to them than they got credit for. He hoped that more permanent measures would be taken in the ensuing session for the relief of the Irish people. Sir D. NORREYS wished that the Legislature of this country would in future sessions bring forward such measures for the permanent relief of Ireland as would remove from the people of that country the necessity of coming to the British Legislature in the character of supplicants. — (Hear, hear.) Ireland had mines of the most extensive and valuable description—it had rivers peculiarly adapted for commerce—and yet, in conse quence of the Legislature not looking to the subject of the improvement of Ireland in a proper light, all those natural resources of wealth and comfort were allowed to lie waste and useless.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME said he was pleased to hear that the land lords of Ireland were prepared to provide for the neces sities of the people of that country as far as possible, by the encouragement of public works. — (Hear , hear.) The measures of relief hitherto granted to Ireland by the Government had most signally failed in their object. The Irish people were as willing as Englishmen or Scotchmen to work, and he therefore would ask whence came the poverty of Ireland? It owed its origin to the misrule of that eountry.—(Hear, hear.) As long as England in flicted poverty on Ireland by their misgovernment and oppression, they had a right to pay for their tyranny l upon e nf v od i ernrwt t t n h eht reheeieees sluspem e manner as did Use country and oppression. The Government was bound to assist the country gentlemen of Ireland in giving employment to the people. Let the present grand jury system, as well as all other pernicious civil institutions, be at once abolished, and then there would be hope for the people of Ireland. It would then arrive at the peaceable, happy, and contented condition of England and Scotland. Let every law that was fit and applicable to England be extended to Ireland, and then they would hear very ittle of " dietrees in Ireland."—(Hear, hear.) Mr. M. MILNES said that all elemosynary grants of this kind established very bad and corrupting principles. He perfectly concurred with the Hon. Member for Mon trose, that it was at once the duty of the English Legis lature to place Ireland on a footing similar to England undoubtedly e w b i e il l i i n e g v ed t that m ak if e and th the S landlords cotland o inf re s Irelandpent o were fits l assisted ori a ul w eb a to by the Legislature o in improving their estates, ti:lehitdoeeefyl ofl t w h oetuhlltaeriliardl lt andlords dosuhnsnfotberfrryrel.itnrhegr: brethren nh i n i c e p a eu e ot uptl greatl be sacrificeslye o e fm g E u o snot England b d gland. The landlords of Ireland must that it was their duty to conduct themselves, towards IrEitsln'uxuries, and devote themselves to the their gentlemene tnhodefei improvement of their country. Sir R. FERGUSON said he cons id ere d that they should make th e electoral divisions of unions res p onsible yno in t bea way to be ap vantageous to t h e well to entr ust i ts expen di ture to for the sums reco mmended to he laid out in them. He th oug ht this the on l y means of re g ulatin g th e expendi ptt uhereoepplooefo. Poor. s as:c m , ouou ions, on account of th e diffi cu l ty o f e l ect i ng Guardians. , Th e Board of Works of Ir e l an d h a d s h ow n themselves utterly incompetent to p ro p erl y mana g e the n ecessity, ' and again that th e sums t h e y wor k s entrusted to t hem. He ima gined they had done their ea ge de without best, fr oin and na a proof of thi s h e must quo t e a ptheire report:—" Many works were com had paid for labour a were Inconsistent with the amount of l a bour which they had received in return. (Hear.) He thought it was most unfair to m a k e statements roprietors of I re l an d, w i t h out against the land ed p giving proper data in support of them. The Noble Lord (Lord Lincoln) had made use of two anony mous statements, which he thought most unfair, o f Ireland Government were for u nless those statemen ts could be full y s ubstantiated. Mr. B. ESCOTT h ad no doubt that the intentions both of the present consider , and the only question and , was the manner in which th o se the late thef,r the future no p us r e os t p o e r inter.lions were proposed to be carried out.—(Hear.) Now, were there not ordinary means for carrying them without having r ecourse to special enactments, which were unpre c edented in the political history of the case of starvation had occurred in the county ; and, in fact, that the people were never so wa provided for as they were this season. There were very few cases of fever—fewer, in fact, than had beta known for many years. That in formation was obtained from the Roman Catholic clergy men. TI , next letter was an abstract return of the number of persons employed by the Board of Works, and that number amounted to no less than 102,133. With regard to that which he had firs , entioned—the measures of Government for providing Indian corn—that measure seemed to have affored very considerable relief. But it was to be observed that these measures of Go v, rnment, providing additions; iood, were doubly bene ficial in their effects. The case would have been very serious in Ireland had not these measures been taken, and had there not been food provided which could be sold at a very reasonable rate. It had been sold in various places, as the papers would show, at 10/. per ton, and by retail at a penny per pound. One pound of this Indian corn was sufficient food for a strong labouring man for a day. So that ld. per day would provide enough sustenance for a day. With respect to the donations, they did bring out a very large amount of subscriptions. He alluded to those made by ail classes of persons in Ire land to be applied to the relief of the distress. Of course, he would not enter on the invidious question of whether there were individuals who ought to have contributed who had not done so ; but he must say, that from the accounts which had been received he found that very person who was able had contributed to these subscriptions. With regard to persons of large property, who undertook works for the employment of the people, and which they managed out of their own resources, and of which, of course, no account had been received, or could be given to the public, al though they materially contributed to the relief of the people—with regard to these works, and the sums ad vanced in cases of great emergency, there had been, as he had just shown, the greatest relief afforded by them ; but it was impossible for any Government or Legis lature endeavouring to meet these alarming cases of distress, taking for the period of the year from December to the coming in of the harvest in August, and the employment of the people on that harvest—it was impossible to preserve them, as they had been preserved, from any deficiency of food afford to them due employment and preserve the peace of the country—and at the same time afford that satisfaction which must be afforded from the knowledge that the Government of the Legislature of the United Kingdom had been so far from indifferent to their sufferings, that it had been eager to supply their necessities—it was impossible to produce these great results without some very serious concomitant evils.—(Hear, hear.) In the first place, with respect to the supply of Indian corn in the emergency which he had alluded to, and in the cases which they had before them, it was prudent, and it also was best suited to that emergency ; but if it were to be considered as establishing a principle for the Government of this country to apply the resources of the Treasury for the purchase of food in foreign countries, and that food were afterwards to be sold by retail at a low rate, it was evident that all trade would be disturbed, and those supplies which should be naturally a portion of the commerce of this country, would be applied for the relief of the people of Ireland. —(Cheers.) Likewise that portion of the local trade in Ireland which referred to the supply of districts would be injured, and the Government would find itself charged with that duty most impossible to perform adequately, to supply with food a whole people; so likewise with regard to public works for which ad vances and grants were made. Although they were in themselves beneficial, yet their effects were in a certain degree injurious, for those people who were employed in ordinary works, and received abundant pay, went to these public works in preference to the others, and thus the ordinary operations of industry were disturbed.—(Hear, hear, from Lord G. Bentinck.) In a letter from Cob Jones, in page 333, he says—" That from a partial inspection of some works in the progress of construction, it was found that they had been put a stop to, and that some of the great public works for the Shannon drainage were without workmen, and that those men obtaining ls. 6d. per day at these private works preferred 9d. on public works. In many instances, a number of persons were sent to those works who ought not to have been sent at all, by gentlemen distributing tickets without proper inquiry, end the consequence was, that those who httherto had been accustomed to come to England and Scotland to assist in taking in the harvest, found that work in Ice land for them at their very doors, sufficieet to provide for their maintenance. They abandoned all idea of the harvest in England and Scotland, and the harvest operations in the north of England suffered materially, in consequence of this, and a great deal of the food of the country was lost from there not being sufficient men to get it in. Lady Symonds had remarked upon this fact in a letter to Mr. Trevellian ; this was one of the injurious consequences inevitable from the large employment given on public works. The accounts which the Government were daily re ceiving from the south of Ireland, and various other counties, all concur in representing the disease as far more fearful than in the preceding year. The accounts contained in the newspapers from various correspondents are also of the same alarming nature. It had, there fore, become the duty of the Government to consider in what manner they should propose to Parliament to make provision for some employment to the labouring classes of Ireland, and at the same. time leaving, as he trusted Parliament would leave, such a discretion in the hands of the Government as any emergency might render necessary in their opinion, and giving an account of those measures to Parliament at a future time. It had appeared to the Government that while there should be public works, and those public works should be undertaken under due control, that they should not defray the cost of thoso works from any Parliamentary grant, but that they should be defrayed from a loan to be repaid by the counties. He would, therefore, propose to introduce a Bill by which the Lord-Lieutenant should have power, upon representation made to him, to summon a barony session, or a county session, for works of relief. When this session should be assembled they would be empowered and required to order such public works as might be necessary for the employment of the people and for relief : the choice of those works to be lett to them, and the execution of the works to be superintended by the officers of the Board of Works. The choice of the works will not, however, be left so entirely to them, as that the approbation of the Government shall not first be requi site and necessary before such works can be com menced. It was proposed in the Bill that advances should be made from the Treasury for the purposes of such works when so approved, and those ad vances were to be repaid in ten years, and should be at an interest of not less than three- and a-half per cent. With reference to the mode of repay ment of these advances, the levy will not be made ac cording to the valuation of the county sessions, but ac cording to the poor rates' assessment ; and by that means the burden would not fall so heavily on the poorer classes.—(Cheers.) In very poor dstricts, however, this system would not be practicable, and he proposed that a grant of 50,0001. should be taken for the purpose of giving employment in such districts, the works to be undertaken by the Government; but those works must be works which are of public utility, and this grantwould not be applicable to any district except such as were not able to undertake the expense of such works. This was not an unusual mode ; there was a case men tioned in the papers which lay upon the table of the House of a precisely similar nature, and in which a larger amount was given by Government than was usual on occasions of public works. The Act of 1 Victoria, sec. 21, contained similar provisions. He also proposed that commissariat officers should be stationed in various parts of Ireland corresponding with the Chief Commissariat officer in Dublin, and informing him from time to time as to the state and supply of food in various parts of the country, and generally with reference to the distress of the country. With reference to the supply of food, the Government did not propose to interfere with the re gular trade by which Indian corn and other grain food could be brought into that country. He proposed to leave the trade as much at liberty as possible. He believed that the markets would be best supplied without the interference of Government. There might be particular cases in which, as in 1836 or in 1839, a supply of food was necesary to be introduced by the Go vernment ; and circumstrnces might also at ise from the inaccessible nature of the country in which it would not be possible for the merchants to introduce that article. In such places commissariat officers will be appointed to furnish the supplies of food. He did not propose to interfere either with the wholesale or retail trade.---(Cheers.) With reference to the relief commit mittee the Government would take care to avoid those errors into which the late Government had fallen, and guided by the experience they had received, he hoped to be able to meet effectively the serious distress of the country, and he hoped to avoid those evils which had arisen from members of the relief committee giving tickets to persons who did not require such relief. The officers to be employed would be the com missariat officers, and any others whom it might be found necessary to employ would be also paid by the Government. In stating this, he was bound to state that the correspondence which had been laid upon the table of the House, and everything which he had heard from private sources, showed that there never was a work undertaken with more zeal and intelligence than the re lief of the distress of the people of that country last year. All the persons employed by the Government. whether you spoke of Sir E. Bryan, the chief officer of the com missariat, or Colonel Jones and the officers of the Board of Works, or the local persons employed, or, generally speaking, the members of the relief commit tee, all evinced the utmost desire to give all their time and attention to the relief of the existing distress, and also to endeavour, as much as possible, to afford every light to Government, by which this relief might be carried on in an efficient manner. Having said this, he should propose to the Committee, first, to vote a sum of money to defray the expanses lately incurred—to direct further advances from the Exchequer—and, lastly, to vote a grant of 50,000/. for the promotion of public works in Ireland, in those poorer districts to which he had alluded. Ile considered that the present was a special case, calling for prompt attention.—(Hear, hear.) lie did, therefore, think it incumbent upon the Government and upon the Parliament to take extraordinary measures for the relief of that distress, and he trusted that there would be at least one counterbalancing advantage attend ing this distress—that it would show the po o re s t among th people of Ireland that the Government of this country were not insensible to the claims which they had upon us as the Parliament of the United King dom—(Cheers)—and show that the whole credit and means of the people of this country should be used, as it was their bounden duty to use them, and as they would be used where they can to avert famine, and to maintain the people of that country, and, lastly, to take advantage of this state of unfortunate dis ease to establish public works which might hereafter be of permanent utility to the country; he hoped, therefore, that some counterbalancing advantages might arise among those many misfortunes which must attend this state of things. He need not detain the Committee auy country ?—(lfear, hear.) Did the Noble Lord ever hear, or could he point out an instance in the history of this or any other country, where restrictions were placed on t'm importation of provision in a time of famine or scarcity ?—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He said this was a very serious matter. Supimse the Noble Lord the Member fur Lynn were put into power, why, the first course he would take would be to rein state the old law on the importation of corn. There were still heavy duties on beans, peas, and rye—all important elements in food. Surely, he said, the Noble Lord at the head of the Government would not continue these duties at a tune like the present—a time of starvation. Sup pose a hundred persons should die of starvation during the recess, what, he asked, would the flouse, what would the public, say of the Noble Lord and the Go • vernment ? They would immediately ask why they had not removed those duties from the statute book. The distress was not confined to Ire land. He had had a communication that morning—he would not trouble the House with it—but the potato crop, according to that letter, had failed. in various quarters. What, then, would be said if the people of England were pressed to the verge of starvation, it not to starvation entirely ? The lets Secretary for Ireland, when he moved to introduce Indian meal into Ireland was in these circumstances —it was prohibited altogether ; and the Honourable Member for Wolverhampton the other night was in the same absurdity as the Right Hon. Baronet pointed out before, when he remarked that Indian meal was at the same duty as barley ; but that being removed peas were in the same absurdity. He hoped the Noble Lord would not continue that state of things, especially during a time of starvation. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it was with the greatest satisfaction that he had heard the speech of the Hon. Gentleman opposite, and particularly that of the Hon. Member for Mallow. It was satisfactory to the Government to hear that it was the intention of the Irish landlords to co-operate heartily with the Go vernment in the promotion of public works in Ireland. The present Government were much indebted to the wisdom of the late Government, for the present mea sure. The late Government had had the experience of eight or ten months in providing for the distress in Ire land, and it would be absurd to say that in the course of that time they did not propound measures of great improvement, which must naturally have suggested themselves to those officers whom the Government had appointed to make a full inquiry into the condition of Ireland; and if there were any excellence in the present measure, it was owing in a great degree to the praiseworthy exertions and wisdom of the late Government. He could not agree with the Honourable Member be hind him, that the measures of the late Government for the relief of Ireland, had turned out to be failures. — (Hear, hear.) By the evidence in the blue book which then lay on the table of the House, it was proved that had it not been for those very measures the people of Ireland would have been subjected to the greatest distresa.—(Hear, hear.) He did not hesitate to say that in many parts of the country the existence of the people was owing to the measures of the Government—(Hear, hear,)—and not oily was the existence but the peace of those people to be attributed to the same praiseworthy exertions. — (hear, hear.) And with regard to the food which had been introduced into that country by the Government, he believed it had caused a new state of things in that country, If Honourable Gentlemen read the public papers, they would find that, in consequence of the Indian corn that was continuously being poured into the country, the country had received an incalculable amount of good. Indian corn was cheaper and more nutritious food than potatoes; it was much cheaper than oats, and he confessed that he was sanguine in the ex pectation that the substitution of Indian corn for potatoes would produce a complete revolution in the social con dition of the people of Ireland.--<llear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman, who, was heard very indistinctly during the whole course of his address, then proceeded to say, that he should be extremely sorry if he antici pated that the measures of the late Government, and the measures proposed by the present Government, were intended to be permanently established in Ireland. Those measures, in a great degree, arose from the failure of the potato crop, and the conse quent distress of the people. The state of things was temporary, and had been and must therefore be met by temporary measures. The Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir R. Ferguson) complained of the way in which the Board of Works was managed. The operations of that Board in Ireland were in the course of last year greatly increased, and without any lengthy notice ; and were taken for the purpose of relieving the people of Ireland from the pressure of distress, caused by the failure of the potato crop, to ensure the supply of food, and next the employment of the people, by putting into their pockets the wages of their labour. In this way the people of England had paid half the ex pense of these works. They were not, in all cases, works absolutely necessary at the time they were undertaken, but adopted as a commendable mode of relieving the people by employing them and by paying them in that way for their labour; and the re was a distinct order issued by the Treasury, that the proposed works to be undertaken were not to be commenegel without the existence of distress, and not to be carried be yond that period. The works were, as he had said, undertaken hastily, when, in many cases it was utterly impossible to know their exact extent or cost, He trusted that they might profit by the ex perience they had thus obtained if a similar necessity should arise. They were carried on under the superin tendence of officers appointed by the Board of Works, which was a guarantee that they were under proper superintendence. The sole object of these measures was to put money into the hands of the distressed, but if they put the directions of the works into the hands of private sur veyors and contractors, they would render their intentions in opperative. He did not think that relief could be carried out upon an extended principle unless the local gentry would ac tively co-operate with them. They were most anxious to avoid introducing the machinery of the poor-law into the applica ticn of these measures, as they wished to treat it as a mere temporary emergency, nor did they wish to prejudice the question of a more extended and liberalised system of the poor-law to Ireland upon the principles of the English poor law. And the Government felt that if they did pursue such a course they would have prejudiced that question which he hoped would soon come before the House for discussion. He must say, that those officers had conducted the operations under them in the most efficient manner. He was quite cer tain, that in any future operations for the relief of the condi tion of the people of Ireland, these gentlemen would be found most invaluable assistants. While the Government was de sirous of finding beneficial employment for the Irish people, it was their desire that, in the main, the assistance to be given should come from the country itself, and that the relief of the distress should not depend entirely upon what aid the Go vernment might be disposed to bestow. Mr. M. GORE approved of the measures Government were adopting towards Ireland, and strongly recommended them to pay some attention to the fisheries of that country. Let them continue to pursue a liberal policy, and the union would be come a blessing instead of a curse upon the sister country. The vote was then agreed to. Mr. ESCOTT, on the vote being put, said, as he had got no answer to his question, he begged to ask the Noble Lord to consider the fact whether he had ever read, in the history of any country, of a tax upon food when the Government was announcing famine? And he gave notice that he would in quire to-morrow whether the Noble Lord was to continue the laws restricting the importation of corn during a time of famine. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, he thought the Hon. Member had given sufficient answer to his own question. He had said, he supposed the House considered the question settled. Now, if the Hon. Member supposed this, and if the House was also of opinion that the question was settled, he felt he ought not to interpose in any matter which was settled. The vote was then put, and agreed to. The other votes were agreed to, without remark, and the House resumed. The report was ordered to be brought up to-morrow. On the order of the day for going into a Committee of Supply, GREAT BRITAIN AND THE SPANISH COLONIES. Lord G. BEN TINCK rose, and said, he had to apologise to the Noble Lord for having returned from the country to trouble him on that occasion, and he sincerely sympathised with the Noble Lord toiling at that season of the year, and he wasisoi ry to increase his labour. But he was sure he would be borne with by the Noble Lord, and the House, in calling the attention of her Majesty's Ministers to the trade between this country and the colonies—a motion of the greatest importance. It was a grievance of many years endurance, a matter on which the merchants of Liverpool had continually remonstrated for twelve years. In 1835, they applied on the subject in vain, and in vain complained t o the Duke of Wellington, then Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. They made frequent remonstrances to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and after changing the Whig Government, from 1842 down to the present time, it had been a matter of repeated and con tinual complaint with the merchants of this country that by the regulations of the Spanish Government—by the non reciprocity of that Government to the free competition to which they had admitted their ships into the ports of this country, they had not lost the whole, but very much the larger part, of the carrying trade between this country and the Spanish colonies. He (Lord George Bentinck) had to apologise to the House—imperfect as always was the manner in which he brought these matters before it—but he must apologise on this occasion for the more than usually imperfect manner in which he would have to address the House. It was only within the last few days that his interposition had been requested by the merchants of Liverpool to endeavour, under the present circumstance, to make some new effort with her Majesty's Government to exert themselves under the Spanish Government, to see that justice was done to British interests. It would be with more than his usual imperfectness that lie would address the House on this subject, because, in the short time since the request of the merchants of Liverpool, he had not been able to go through those returns connected with this subject, and which he should have preferred to have laid before the House. But he thought that, for the purpose of calling the attention of her Majesty's Ministers to this subject, it would be sufficient for him to lay before the House the infor mation which regarded former years, whilst he stated that there had been no change iu the circumstances connected with this carrying trade. He would begin then by stating to the House what the difference was in the charges on goods carried in British ships and those carried in Spanish ships, and having, pointed out to the House the great difference in the amount of duty, and to the restriction of the British carrying trade he would show to them what were the effects of that sys tem. He held in his hand a staternent—it was one that was laidbefore his Grace the Duke of Wellington eleven years ago, but it remained good up to the present time—it was a statement of the amount of duties that would be charged upon the merchandise and cargo sent from the port of Liverpool, and the goods that were sent from the ports of Spain. The value of the goods exported from the port of London was 19,075/. It consisted of 1,000 bales, valued at 150/. ; of 1,000 yards of cloth, valued, at that time, at 1001. ; of 1,000 yards of linen cloth, valued at that time at 100!. ; of 1,000 pieces of other fabric, valued at 8001.; and a quantity of other goods. Upon the vessel reaching the Havannah the distinc tive duties levied were 21i per cent. on goods imported in Spanish ships, and 30i per cent. ad valoruni upon goods landed from British ships. To make up the cargo 100 pieces of printed calico, valued at 5001., of 1,000 pieces of other fabric, making a sum total of 1,975/. The duties levied at the Havannah upon the goods imported in Spanish ships amounted to 582/. 18s. ad.; but if they had been imported in British ships the duties that would have been charged would have amounted to 8261. Os. 6d.; making the dif ference no less than 243/. Bs. 9d. upon the same goods if im ported in a British instead of a Spanish ship. This discrimina tion in duties involved another discrimination in tolls, which were imposed at different ports of that country. The port the respective countries in the year ISIS on the subject of dues at the Havannah were five ryles a ton on British vessels; Cracow, and contended that it was the duty of thisco untry at ryles upon foreign vessels ; six ryles a day for every 100 least to remonstrate against these violation s . They irigh a tnot tons of Spanish shipping, and 10 rules a day on every 100 tons have succeeded in preventing it, but it was their lut v i to have of foreign shipping. The result' , of all these duties was, that taken some step in the matter. The question he wanted to know it rendered it so much the more advent ageous to export goods in was, whether any remonstrance had been made on the part of this Spanish ships than in the ships of this country ; and that country. Recent transactions in that country showed the ne whilst in 1833 no such thing as a Spanish ship loaded with cessity of some interference, and he believed that if a British British goods was seen in the pert of Liverpool, at the present consul had been appointed to Cracow much of those atrocities moment they were not uofrequent. The difference of the might have been removed, the details of which were so revolt duties, as he s a id before, on the real value of British goods_ ing that they could scarcely be credited. It wo uld be some exported from this country, amounted to this, that it was 411. 6s. satisfaction to those who took an inter, st in the unfortunate 6d. per cent. when exported in the ships of Great Britain, Poles to know that steps had been taken by this Government. and 291. 83. 6d, when exported in the ships of Spain. He hoped he should live to see the day when Poland should This grievance had endured for more than twelve years. once more assert her dignity, and free herself from the despotic America felt the grievance as well as England_(Hear, hear.) tyranny of those nations which had oppressed her. It might Spain had endeavoured to run her " rigs" upon the Ameri- be said that he was indulging a ferlorn hepe,'but he thought can;. but they were keen enough to resent the attempt ; and that such hopes, if kept up, would tend to preserve and keep within two months they introduced and carried a measure of alive the feeling of liberty in the bosoms of that generous people, restrictions equal to those placed by Spain on the shies of Mr. M. MILNES felt that in that House individuals might America. But, while Spain carried out these unfair duties make remarks upon the conduct of foreign Governments upon English ships, England had placed no discriminative which members of this Government might not think it prudent duties whatever upon Spanish ships visiting her ports. It was to make. He considered that the principle of non-interference true they paid a heavier pilotage, but upon their goods there was in general the best. He believed, however, that the present was no disitinction. In 1838 the following was the de- question was one of right, and might afford some grounds for Glared value of cargoes of various kinds, consisting of remonstrance, but he did not know to what good purpose earthenware, glass, hardware, iron, coal, and bales remonstrance could tend unless they were prepared to resort of unmanufactured goods of all kinds, comprising sup- to the ultima ratio regiuns. If they did that, he could under plies from all the manufacturing branches of the coun- stand why they should complain of the violation of treaties, but try. In 1838 the total declared value of the otherwise it appeared to him to be utterly useless, and worse. goods exported to Cuba, was 462,927/. ; of this traffic there Cracow was as independent a town as Hamhro, awl by the was carried by the ships of G r eat B r it a i n 61,4871., by American treaty of Vienna this was distinctly secured. There might be ships, 92,7811., mid by the ships of Spain, 318,534. In 1839, some difficulty in reconciling the 6 h and 9th article of that of the declared value of the exports to Cuba, the ships of Great treaty, but he could not conceive a case so unjust a' the inve- Britain took 37,9171. ; American ships, 69,9031. ; and Spanish sion by an armed force of the territory of Cracow. If bands of ships, 265,106/. In 1841, the next return he had obtained, conspirators were plotting against the peace of that republic, the declared value had risen to 518.3991., of which 33,0381. that was not a just reason for the armed occupation of the was carried by ships belonging to Great Britain, 49,446'. by territory of Cracow. It was the duty of the protective American ships, and 428,264 e by Spanish ships ; so that, in powers to inv es ti ga t e the subject, and to assist the authorities fact, the ships of Spain carried 13 times the amount of the of Cracow to suppress those conspiracies, ' but there was no ships belonging to Great Britain. This was the effect of ad- justification whatever for the occupation of Cracow by Austria, milting the ships of foreign countries on the same footing as and their retention of it to this moment. The accounts of those belonging to Great Britain. He had obtained no return the transactions which took place there e were o very thryem confused, ost since 1841, but he knew what was going on at present at Liver- but it could not be doubted that some pool. lie learned that there were six Spanish ships loading for re volting scenes which occurred in Galicia were the Havannah there, and but one British ship.--( Hear, hear.) unparalleled in the history of the world. The lion. Gentle- The British ship measured 176 tons; the six Spaniards 1,296 man. after describing the relationship that existed between the tons. This was the state of British commerce at Liverpool at peasants of Galicia and the proprietors of the land there, pro this moment, in consequence of the great advantages which the ceeded to say that 1 , 4 7 8 landed proprietors were massacred by Spaniards had over the British trader. Now, he considered the peasants, and brought to the Austrian Government in corn this was the appropriate time to bring the subject under the I pliance with their orders. 60 or 70 of them were priests; and consideration of the Government, because they were on the in one family there were no less than 16 individuals destroyed. eve of making a great alteration in the sugar duties, which He would now ask, were the authors of these cruelties, these would increase the payment of this country to Spain nearly a unheard-of atrocities, punished? No; they were not. Nor million per annum. No doubt the greater part of the money was there the least inquiry into the matter. Now, these were would be paid in the goads of this country. and it was highly historical facts, and could not be denied. If they occurred in a important that Government should take this matter into their distant country—in any place—he thought they were bound in serious consideration.—(Hear, hear.) He would recommend that House to call upon their own Government to remonstrate her Majesty's Ministers to follow the example of the United against them. With regard, however, to Cracow, this country States. There was a new doctrine proposed by the Right was bound by solemn treaty to inquire why they were perpe- Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth—that it was be- trated, to investigate the whole circumstances, and to guard neath the dignity of this country, or rather of the free-traders, against their occurrence. He would not enter into the ques to haggle in commercial policy. He said he disagreed with tion of conspiraey, as alleged against the proprietors ; but if it that entirely, and thought that if it was vulgar, it was essential was really so, why, he would ask, were they not dealt with to covenant with foreign countries for boons, before gifts were by the ordinary political and military Governments. The Aus offered by this. It might be stated, that we ought not to at- trian Government had no reason to apprehend any fear, if the tempt to bully foreign countries into a system in alleued conspiracies really existed, for they had an army of concurrence with our own views, but he thought, 80,000 men at hard. on receiving the first intimation that a for one, that they ought to look to the interests of revolt had taken place. He trusted that he had brought for- Great Britain solely—( Hear, bear)—as long as they ward this case in a spirit of moderation, and he earnestly hoped were consistent with the principles of honesty and jus- the Austrian Government would be able to justify their acts; tice. His Noble Friend, above all men, would have the be.t but he must, at the same time, express his conviction that they right to insist upon speedy justice, because his Noble Friend, would not be able to do so.--(Hear, hear.) lie was sure, when in office in former times, never shrunk from insisting however, that if they did not do tardy justice in this instance, upon the rights of England, however strongly, or however in the end, when they needed assistance, the provinces of powerful the courts might be with which it had to deal.-- Europe might so construe the treaty as to refuse to give it (hear, hear.) He feard not France, arid he (Lord G. Ben- th, m. tinck) thought that the Noble Lord should have no delicacy in Lord PALMERSTON said, however much they might be pressing this matter upon the a tte n tion o f the Government of disposed by their feelines to go back into events connected with Spain, and insist that forthwith Spain shall remove those dis- the former history of Poland, they ought to confine themselves criminating duties which were imposed upon the ships engaged to the eve its which had occurred since the ratification of the in the carrying trade of the people of England to the Spanish treaty of Vienna. The metion which his Hon. Friend the colonies, and the practical effect of which would be to shut nut Member for Pontefract had made he could not bring himself to the ships of England from the cam ing of sugar fronaCuba to Eng- concede to. His [lon. Friend moved for the production of a land. If things remained as they now were, he feared that the correspondence which took place between the British Govern effect would be that those ships which were thrown out of went and the Governments of Austria, Russia, and Prussia ten the West India trade, and also out of the trade of Mauritius, by years ago, turning upon a state of things then existing, and rivalry in sugars brought from Spain and the Brazilian cob , - relating to matters which had long been settled and determined, nicer, would find no employment to support their trade of car- and which could in no way serve either to instruct or enlighten tying sugar from the Havannah and Porto Rico to this coon- the House upon the immediate occurrence which the Hon. try. He thought, therefore, that on this subject he had done Gentleman had brought under their consideration.—( Hear, no more than his duty, and he hoped he would be pardoned by hear.) The correspondence was simply an expression of the House for having trespassed upon its attention, whilst he different opinions upon certain rights and claims; and it could called that of her Majesty's Government to the great grievance be productive of no good results to rip up those matters under which the shipping interest of Great Britain was now which : had long been buried and settled , and which did not labouring. bear upon the question now at issue.—( Hear, hear.) He did Mr. MILNER GIBSON sa id, the Noble Lord need have not attach so much to the appointment of a consulet at Cracow offered no apology to the House for calling its attention to the as some lion. Gentlemen did, because had such a functionary subject which he had now brought before their notice; for a been appointed when the subject was agitated in 1536, he could subject of more i m p or t ance t o th e s hippi ng interests of this only have communicated information which must have reached country could scarcely be brought under the consideration of just as quick, and just as authentic, through another channel. the House. The Noble Lord had correctly stated that there —( Hear, hear.) Now, he should be quite ready to give his was a tariff prevailing at th e p r e sen t time in Hon. Friend those papers, and that correspondence with regard Cuba, and that it had existed there for many to the present state of things which had been moved for in the years ; and that by favouring the Mauritius ships it other House of Parliament.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") It had well nigh excluded the British ships from the carrying was impossible to deny that the treaty of Vienna had been trade connected with that island, both with reference to the violated by the recent proceedings in Cracow, and it must importation of ma nufactures w ith C u b a , an d a l s o with refe- be remembered that not only were Austria, Russia, and retire to the exportation of produce from Cuba. But the re- Prussia parties to the conditions of that treaty, but there were cent changes which had taken place in that tariff, and which Great Britain, France, and other powers, who were parties to had had effect since the Ist of March of the present year, had, it. There could be no doubt that those who drew up the treaty in some respects, made its operations more unfavourable to intended that it should protect the small state of Cracow ; and, British interests, whilst in other respects it had tended to mi- indeed, the treaty itself provided that it s hould be placed under ti ,, ate its effects. With reference to tonnage dues, there the three powers of Austria, Prussia, and Russia. But while had been a change, but that change experience had proved it was placed so far under the control of those powers, it must had worked more favourably to the interests of England than be admitted on all hands that the treaty gave to Cracow the was anticieated, for the change was introduced previous to the rights, privileges, and responsibilities of an independent state. regulation with respect to the compensating difference between The Noble Lord having entered into the details of the recent the tonnage as measured by the Spanish laws, and as measured occurrences in Cracow, which have already been given fully in by the laws of Great Britain ; an d the S p aniards had The Sun, proceeded to say, that the entrance o f the Austrian had the option given them whether they would army was a decided violation of the treaty of Cracow, pay twenty-three per cent. additional tonnage duties for the treaty provided, that under no pretence should the or submit to be measured in accordance with the Spanish armies of the three adjacent powers enter into Cracow.—( Hear, laws. Those who had submitted to the measurement by the hear.) He was, nevertheless, firmly of opinion that the three Spanish laws, had found that the tonnage dues had worked powers had not the remotest intention of departing from their favourably for British interests ; and so, though nominally engagements of the treaty of Vienna, and he entertained little there appeared a difference, there was nothing in reality but a or no doubt that the three powers would place the republic of mitigation of duties. The statement was not true with re- Cracow upon the footing on which it formerly stood.—(Hear, spect to duties on goods imported in British and other foreign hear.) At all events he hoped it was the intention of the ships, but it was true with respect to the duties imposed by the three powers to do so. He had no knowledge to the contrary, quarantine laws. In both these cases the differential duties, but he thought the House would find from the papers which with respect to England and other foreign countries, had been he should produce some intimation or assurance of their increased ; and in the case of the quarantine laws it was per- intention to restore Cracow to its former position —(Hear, feetly tree, as stated by the Noble Lord, that though all Spanish hear.) He entertained too high an opinion of the sense of ships paid the same quarantine fee, British and other foreign justice and of right which must animate the Governments countries were required to pay twice as much.—( Hear, hear.) of Austria, Prussia, and Russia, to believe that they could The Noble Lord could not wonder that this apparent indecision have any disposition to treat Cracow otherwise than Cracow should have existed, on the part of Spain, to remove the ditTe- was entitled to be treated by the treaty of Vienna. He rential duties on British ships and British goods, because it was quite sure that those Governments must be sufficiently would be in the recollection of the House that, upon a very sagacious to have seen the force of that reasoning, to which his recent occasion, when there was an endeavour, on the part of lion. Friend the Member for Pcntefract had referred, namely, Spain, to place such a construction on the commercial duties that the treaty of Vienna must be taken as a whole, and it between this country and Spain, as would have entitled the could not be permitted for any power to depart from one article goods of Spain to have been brought into this country as the which did not please them, and at the same time to act upon goods of any other foreign country, England declined to another which might happen to serve a particular purpose of sanction such an interpretation of the duty, and, in the most their own.—( Hear, hear.) It could not have escaped the distinct and emphatic manner, entirely repudiated all idea sagacity of those powers, that the treaty of Vienna, if violated that there existed anything to prevent reciprocity, or in respect of one state, might be violated in respect of all the intercourse such as usually took place between nations in strict states it embraced ; for instance, if this principle of violations amity with each other.—(Hear.) That he believed was, at was applied to a state on the banks of the Vistula, it might be any rate, the construction placed by Parliament on our con- extended to the German States on the banks of or adjacent to nexion with Spain, on the recent question t hat arose with the Rhine, or those on the banks of the Po.—( Hear, hear.) He respect to Spanish rates. Spain demanded that sugar, the was, therefore, convinced that a sense of policy, a sense of growth of her colonies, should be admitted into England at the self-interest on the part of those powers would induce them to same rate as the sugar of other foreign countries. England re- say that the treaty of Vienna must be respected as a fused to admit this claim. He did not mean to say that if Eng- whole.—( Cheers.) It must be for their interest that land had conceded that claim, that Spain would have been pre- Cracow should be restored to its former position, and it was eluded from placing higher duties upon British goods, and his firm conviction, that Austria, Prussia, and Russia would upon British ships, than upon her own goods ; but h e c ould res p ect the treat y of Vienna, and restore Cracow accordingly. safely say, had a more liberal and larger construction been —(Hear, hear.) He should have wished to avoid adverting at placed upon these treaties, it would have gone far to have in- that moment to the other topic which the Hon. Gentleman duced Spain to have acted in a more kindly spirit towards had brought under his notice, but as it related to events of a British commeroe, and reduced the differential duties which recent occurrence he could not allow the observations of the affected British ships and British goods going into the Atlantic. Hon. Gentleman to pass by unnoticed. Now, it was perfectly It was not for him to state what course her Majesty's Govern- true that Galicia formed part of Austria, but he differed with ment would take, but he took upon himself to say that he did his Hon. Friend, in thinking that there was a nything in the not think that it would be the one suggested by the Noble Lord, treaty of Vienna which gave the British Government the right namely, that of retaliation. of interfering in the dispute in question.—( Hear,) While he, After a few words from Mr. M. GORE, which were very however, said this much, he was perfectly ready to admit that i mper f e ctly heard in the gallery , Hon. Gentlemen, standing in that House as the y did as th e Lord PALMERSTON said that his Noble Friend would representatives of a great and a free country, had a perfect bear in mind that the ground which any Government would right to discuss and express their opinions upon the events take, in remonstrating against a fact of this kind, must depend which bed recently taken place in Galicia. Indeed, it could on the terms on which they were with respect to the country. not be expected that an independent Member of the British There was no reciprocal treaty between England and Spain, Legislature should have any restraint put upon him, to prevent which would entitle the English to demand that their vessels his expressing his views and opinions with regard to such mate in Spanish ports should be placed upon an equal footing ters; but it was widely different with respect to a member of with Spanish ones ; but her Majesty's Government would, of the Government, who could not always be at liberty to avail course, feel it their duty to take advantageof the earliest oppor- himself of so much latitude for comment and observation. tunity of endeavouring to place English vessels on as favourable He was afraid that his Hon. Friend had understated the a footing as possible in Spanish ports. He objected to the matter—( Hear, hear)—but he (Lord Palmerston) had not principle of retaliation laid clown by the Noble Lord ; as he did had an opportunity of referring to official information ; he was not think that it would be likely to lead to any good result. If speaking from informat ion which had just been published and there were good grounds to think that the country upon which laid before the other House of Parliament. And he believed the retaliation was to take place would yield to it and give way, that if the facts which had taken place at Cracow were fully then the prospect of ultimate good might induce them to sub- published, they would be found to be without example, he might wit mit to a temporary evil. He was, however, very sorry to say almost say in any age—( Hear, hear)—but cert ainly w heat (fe r w h t ear.) that experience showed that such measures were attended with example in any modern history of Eur i o n p no good result, and he thought that the object would be much o li r e kn co o ti w l n d bnyottbbeelGieovveertnhmatentth.ele(prizacre,ehde.aige.s.)—w.were swaansctniootneind better effected by peaceable measures. Mr. DISRAELI thought that the principle of retaliation a condition to deny, had not been well laid down by the Noble Lord. The retali- proceedings wertea regulated mreenw o tl u rw l wouldgovernedwhich oo c say disbelieve, oy d rn i et s.habseeolinioe local ol Friend, authorities.bel that iev e thosethe N at o io b n ie, mLuosrtddehpaedndcoonnfocuinr dcuedmltpanzieisapsfor not lt unintentionally that thoffences had made, retaliation, or a retaliatory duty on an article of corn- but he was convinced hose must have caused c in ce te s :tion T al h ly e etoierrwecatsneasfsmoidf the h statement ta th te e — me r r e c t i a a h l exchange, with a retaliatory duty on an article of corn- great grief and affliction to the Government of Vienna. He was merce with another country. There was no analogy or afraid that a Government like Austria, which prided similarity between the two instances. In order to show the itself upon the maintenance of order, and upon a success of the principle, he would refer to a return from the Government that was called paternal and kind port of Havannah, dated July 18, 1546, from which it ap- and conservative of the honour of subjects which were under peared that the number of American ships in that port was its sway—he never could believe that that Government could nearly five times that of the British ships. During the last have learned, without the greatest pain, afiliction, and distress, twelve years the United States had been pursuing a retaliatory the deplorable proceedings which had taken place at Galicia. policy with regard to Spain; and we, who had been giving the Although it was not convenient for the Government of Eng- Spanish ships the same advantages as ships of this country, land to interfere in a matter so exclusively confined to the Go were now entirely excluded from the carrying trade. He was venunent of the country in which these transactions had taken convinced, that if the principle of the United States were pun - place , ye t, as an individual Member of that House, he might sued in England, it would in the end be infinitely better for the be permitted t o ex p ress his conviction that the enlightened commerce of this country. men of the Government of the empire of Austria would feel Mr. FLUME thought that the principle of retaliation was it to be, no torrlytheir to du t t a y k , o bu s t u w e r sltdepa3lsoasfemeligithtthebie in r pleasuretheir one which ought, if at all applied , to be applied very c autiousl y . and their satisfaction This country did not take the sugars of the Havannah ; and, it powf er sa n s o i t n t t o he re m dr l e a ss : f t or e th m a i t se u x :a ie s s i a m o p d os e s a i l b am le, it lo e u s t t t h om h i a ti d ga r t e. e, was not to be wondered that there should be more American as ar c ently taken place in y Gal h icia.—( Hear, hear.) He would at say, vessels in that port than of English, therefore, that he trusted his Hon. Friend would excuse hire FLOGGING IN THE NAVY.whichfeelhim he se h lf ad at m l a ib d e e r ; ty bu to t h ac e ce th de eog t h o t the that p t ar h; corporal punishments inflicted on t he crew s Mr. WILLI A.MS moved for a return of the number of of f ihe Ocular d m id not otion her Majesty's ships of war in commission, in each of the years, papers which he (Lord Palmerston) was prepared to give him 1834 to 1845, both inclusive ; a l s o the number of men subject would afford him more practical information on the subject to corporal punishment, and the number of lashes inflicted in of these transactions than were, in vent of fact, asked for each ship in each year; also, the number of seamen who de- by his motion. Ile could assure his Hon. Friend, that so sorted from her Majesty's ships in commission in each of those far as recommendations from this Government to that of years; also, the a mount of prize-money, or from grants of Austria went, he would do all in his power to mitigate the public money, rec eived by each of the commanders-in duel, evils complaioed of—( Cheers.) captains, commanders, lieutenants, and able and ordinary sea• Dr. 110 WRING said that the Members of that House, and men, who served in her Majesty's ships at. Navarino, Acre, and the people of the country must feel greatly indebted to the in China. In the present state of the House, he would not Noble Lord for the speech which he had made on this sees press his motion to a division. He would be content with a s:on—( Hear, hoar ) The Noble Lord had referred with similar return to that granted upon th e same s ubject in the regret to the circumstances which had taken place, and had army• made a very important acknowledgement to this country, and Admiral DUNDAS then l a id u p on the table of the House to the world—namely, that the treaty of Vienna, to which some returns relative to the subject. this country was a party, had been broken—( Hear, hear)-- TREATY OF CRACOW. and he hoped that it might go forth to the world that the ke M first Mr. HUME moved for copies of any correspondence be - A ustrian Government, who had been the arti to ma he He es twoen the Government of her Majesty and the Government of that treat y , were the first to break it.—(Heam Cracow, Russia, Prussia, or Austria, relative to the app oint- could not but feel that this question, which had bee ! o n sm fo ol r- i a r . ) ment of a British consular agent at Cracow since the decla- tunatel y brou g ht forward by his Hon. Friend was but thhs I those on Poles ration made by the Minister of Foreign Affairs in t he House s y stem of a great disease, and though it might suit the I ern of Commons, in the year 1936, of hi s inten- hers of that House to refer to the st and of hold gone tion of sending a consul to reside a t C r acow. b y , as one that would never return, and to . He regretted the course which this country had pursued with w ho still sighed to see their nationality recognised, and grieved reference to Cracow. He thought It discreditable to the and languished for the restoration of the rights and liberties Government of this country; they were guarrantees for the of their country, as entertaini House ng wild hopes, he thou would liberties of the people of Cracow , and those pledges should be venture to remind that thatthough faithfully kept. He should be sorry to see any step taken Cabinets had sanctioned the destruction of the rights which might endanger the peace of Europe, hut he rea lly o f Poland, that the crime had not yet been expiated, thought the subject should be explained by the N o bl e Lo r d a t a nd that the popular opinion which alone could give a sanction the head of the Government. He thought the cow-hearted- to treaties—that same popular opinion had never recogniss i d . ness of this country had allowed those treaties made with that foul misdeed.—(Cheers.) Poland must be subject t• din other countries to be broken; they had stood by while these quietude while the wrongs were enacted, and instead of standing forward to the present evils existed in that country there, la " n o of that coun present state of things rernsinue.d.• continue prevent these violations they had shrunk into their shells, to be the friends of freedom and of the r d MI? i the bo= of seemingly half frightened to interfere. The Hon. Alernter try, who would demand the restoration a then went at game length iota the treaties entered into between demands, and hopes would have r ' pleas; and their it 11701-----.. , , , . ; 1 , 1 1 1 a ' t t 1 ( i :1 . 1 ' i II (