The Sun. — London, England, 1846-03-07 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. 110 USE OF LORDS, March 6. The LORD CIIANC ELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at ten minutes past. Five o'clock. IRISH OUTRAGES. Lord FARNHAM presented a petition signed by the High Sheriff and grand jury of Cavan, in favour of the Government measure for protection to lives and property in Ireland. CORN-LAW'S. The Earl of CARNARVON presented petitions from Winchester and other places in favour of protection to agricul ture. He had been among the petitioners himself during the last few days, and he could state that they were influenced by very strong feelings on these laws. They were of opinion that the laws affording protection should, in justice to the farmer, be continu el, for they feel that the farmer had difficulties to contend with different from those of any other class in so ciety. These difficulties were principally of a natural kind—changeable seasons, frosts, and other casualties, which no painstaking or intelligent cultivator could by any foresight guard against. They had not as quick returns for their capital as manufacturers had, and they were consequently desirous to have a more fixed and certain remune ration for their industry. 'I hey very much deprecated the measure recently introduced into the other House of Parlia ment, which they considered as being neither in conformity with the political sagacity of the Noble Duke, the original pelicy of the Government, or the opinions of the late Secretary of the Colonies, whom they considered as well qualified as any other Noble Lord to decide what m easures were best calculated to be advantageous to the country. PROTECTION OF LIFE (IRELAND) BILL. h Lord BROUGHAM wished to make an o b se rvation my th e measure about to be introduced by the N oble Earl (St. G - mana). He thought such a measure should be discussed in the presence of his Noble and Learned Friend the Lord Chief Justice. It was impossible for the Noble and Learned Lord to be in town till Saturday, and he could then remain till Monday evening. The Earl of WICKLOW said his Noble and Learned Friend had appointed this day for the discussion of the Bill ; but now it appeared that the Lord Chief Justice would not be in town till Monday. The LORD CHANCELLOR thought it was necessary that the opinions of the Lord Chief Justice should be known on such a measure. Earl ST. GERM ANS was in the hands of the House. The illarqui , of LANSDOWNE thought that the recom mittal of the Bill would enable the Lord Chief Justice to ex press his opinions. The Martinis of CLAN RICARDE said he would propose that the duration of the Bill should be limited to five years. Indeed he thought that even that period would be too long, and he would rather prefer that it should be for only one year. It was ame sure of a very strong character, and one the working of which they could form no opinion of whatever. Upon the duration of the Bill would entirely depend whether be should form one of the Committee. Earl GREY said it would be a great inconvenience to many Noble Lords to have this measure postponed. No doubt it would be very desirable to have the assistance of the Lord Chief Justice, but as that could be had in the future stages of the Bill it would be well to proceed now, as he was desirous of bringing on his amendments. Earl St. GERM ANS said he was quite willing to adopt that course. lie would first proceed to state the amendments proposed by her Majesty's Government seriatim, and then they could be discussed afterwards. One amendment he had to propose was one suggested by a Noble Friend of his, a Member of the other House, Lord Clemente, which was that the Act should have a retrospective effect; that was to say, that in all cases of districts now under a state of proclamation the Lord Lieutenant would have it in his power to charge the expenses incurred by such proclamation upon that district. This would have the ef fect of enforcing a pecuniary penalty upon any district in a state of disturbance. The next clause was one to limit the duration of the Act :—" And be it enacted, that this Act shall continue and be in force for five years from and after the passing thereof, and to the end of the then next session of Parliament, and may be amended or repealed by any Act to be passed in the present session of Parliament." It was intended also, that a petty sessions should be held in the disturbed districts, at least once in every week. He would now pro ceed to the amendments proposed by the Lord Chief Justice. The first of those related that no proclamation) should be issued, unless the requirement to the Lord Lieutenant were signed by three acting justices of the peace in the county. He (Earl St. Germans) thought it would be desirable that the whole responsibility of these proclamations should rest on the Executive Government. He considered that the Executive Government should not screen itself behind the authority of any one, and that magistrates should not be needlessly required to place themselves in a state of considerable personal danger. Some prevision might be inserted to remedy the delay occasioned in the issuing of these proclamations, but he did not conceive that any amendment to a greater extent was necessary. He did not propose to adopt the amendment of the Noble and Learned Lord in this instance, or to introduce any other in its room. The object of the second amendment of the Noble Lord was, no doubt, to re medy any d-lay that might take place with the man who might be charged with crime. He had, however, some diffi cu ty in adopting the amendment. The magistrates would be placed by it in an invidious position, for the individual so charged might be his own tenant. To meet that diffi ulty the measure provided that a petty sessions should be held every week at each of the disturbed districts. If the man appre hended gave a satisfactory account of himself he would be at once liberated ; but if not, they would have the power of pro ceeding as the circumstances of the case seemed to require. He would now come to the amendments of the Noble Lord opposite (Cottenham). With respect to them he must say, that so far as eases of misdemeanor were concerned, the) might be effictive enough, but the ease of murder was left wholly untouched by them. He did not wish to discuss the subject at present, but he repeated that the Noble Lord who had proposed this measure should have brought it in as a ge neral Bill. He now came to the amendment proposed by the Noble Lord to dispense with the punishment of transportation for the offence of being out after nightfall. That punishment would be the only vindication of this measure. If the measure were considered as necessary, the question was, what was the amount of punishment necessary to deter persons from the commission of these offences ? It was impossible that any fixed or unalterable rule should be laid down with regard to it, but it should be left to the Legislature to determine the pu nishment for each particular offence. He was able to ask with confidence every Noble Lord in that House, who was at all connected with Ireland, whether the punishment above all other most dreaded by the criminals of Ireland was not trans portation? and, therefore, looking at the subject as a mere question of humanity, would it not be better to make one or two examples? It would produce more effect than any other sort of punishment, if criminals were to be summarily trans ported, and removed at once from the dock to the transport ship. Those who were imprisoned returned to their homes when their term was expired without being in any way deterred frogs the commission of fresh offences. In the year 1835, Mr. O'Connell had said that there were parts of this Bill of which he entirely approved. He thought that no perm resident in the disturbed districts should be allowed to go from his home after nightfall without giving a sufficient reason for his ab sence, as by that means many offences would be prevented. It was a calumny to say, that in giving that approval he took away from the just liberty of the subject, for it would only have the effect of preventing the people from committing crimes and outrages deserving of punishment. These were the ()pinions of Mr. O'Connell in regard to the disturbances in Ireland. He (the Earl St. Germans) considered that unless measures were taken to prevent parties going out at night, so hang would they be unable to prevent the occurrence of crime. And further, he considered that unless there was a dispropor tion between the punishment and the crime the evil would not be remedied. Mr. O'Connell said in 1834, that this Bill (re ferring to the measure then proposed) was calculated to meet an exceeding great evil, those midnight disturbances, which related not alone to agree ian questions, but which affected the whole face of society. He considered it was no infringement of public hberty to prevent persons from going out at night litho had no lawful business, but who rather, if permitted, mere bent on inflicting injury upon their fellows. If this re ntriction were judiciously carried out, it would exercise a mo- - t ualutary and beneficent influence on Ireland. Such were the opinions of Mr. O'Connell in 1834 and 1835. Tile restriction was not intended against the well disposed, but against per seens oho were about to engage in evil practices, and which there was no means of reaceing at present; the great diffi erulty being to get evidence against persons who were guilty o r !midnight outrages. To meet this difficulty the present pro vision was proposed. If innocent parties were taken up under it, they would be discharged by the magi-trate ; or, if suspi cion seas against them, they would he referred to a higher tribu nal, where, if faultle, s, they would be allowed logo free; then would they, and deservedly, be subjeettel to punishment. He really could not believe that those Noble Lords who wished withold from the Judges of the land the powers propos by the Bill, understood the state of crime in that country, whirls so endangered life and property. He held in his hand a me. rnorhil to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, from the magistrates of the county of Tipperary. It prayed that Government would brig in a law which would conduce to the safety of life and property in I re l an d. It s t a t e d th a t so d ar i ng h a d the evil-dis posed become that the most frightful outrages were committed in the broad day, without respect to name or creed. The me morial went on to show how necessary it was that some stringent measure should be brought into force to put an end to such frightful acts. The declaration went on to state that intimidation had reached such a height that people in art humble class of life could not be induced to give evidence ; that it was not to the num'aer of crimes, but their character, the memo rialists directed attention; that it was not the lives of landlords that were in danger, but the peasants' hut was the scene of murder; and that ejectment from land was not the cause of outrage, but the most trivial occur rencet was ma d e a cause f or outrage. Th at d ocument ( eon minaened the N o bl e L or d) was s i gne d b y L or d D una lly, a noble man known in thi s H ouse , a resident landlord, and one of extremely upon this liberalpolitics. Indeed he (Earl St. Germans) looked measure as by no means sufficient to meet the exigencyseGf ~t hv ee r nc ase---)t. would rather fall short of it ; but her Majesty's a strength beyond diet not wish to enforce any measure was a subject of necessary. As this hear him with patience i) great imp was al " iutel Y tance, he trusted the House would while e he read another docatncnt, The Noble Lord then read a, m ass m em o l a e l a fro m the grand jury of the county of Roscommon at summer assaes, 1815, which was to the same effect as t h at from th e mag i s t r4 t es o f the county Tipperary. That d ocumen t as signed by the O'Conor Don, and he need not rem indt er as would read to Lordships that Ile he was not a person to exaggerate the e v il. their Lordship' another document from the same the High Sheriff and the gr a nd jury at the last document was similar in subs t ance to the one first assi zes The .7rtys from was signed by a gentleman named Tennyson, and by 11l . r s . Fi:z,teplien French, the Member for the county. H e had read thesedecoments to show the House that gentlernendiffering in Folit:eal opinions from the Government had taken the same view that they did, and had urged the Government to bring forward a measure to give protection to life and property, no doubt, been shocked, when Their Lordships had , they read of the attempt to assassinate two gentlemen, a late Member of the other House, and one of the best landlords in Ireland. He would read a letter received by him from the office of the Chief Secretary for Ireland. The Noble Lord read the letter, which stated that the attempt at assassination had been made within four miles of Limerick, and at seven o'clock in the evening, when numbers of persons were on the road. The gentlemen, whose lives were attempted, were Sir David Roche and Sir Edmund Lyons. Was this a state of things that ought longer to exist ? It was absolutely necessary that some stringent measures should be taken. Nothing could be more painful to him than to stand up and propose any measure which would tend to abridge the liberties of the people. But it was the first duty of the State to take such steps as might be deemed expedient for the protection of life and property. Lord BROUG r-lAM said, that a feeling of shame was created when they heard that portions of their fellow country men were leading lives so detestable as these unhappy victims of delusion, who thought they had a right to massacre their landlords for making a lawful and righteous use of their own property. He did not mean to say one word counter to the stateme n t s o f t h e Noble Lord. He believed the different statements received from the grand juries and lieutenants were quite correct. They were, therefore, r all agreed that some effi cacious measure was required to the crime which so awfully abounded in that unhappy c o unt ry,ereaa to make i make it, as suitable for he said on a former evening, habitable—t a i l t l that, the residence of peaceable subjects. They and yet at the same time be of opinion that not a measure befitted in all its parts to meet the wasnee 'amities of the case. He, :proposed his _ameiadmead- ments because the Lord Chief Justice had objected to confine the measure to Ireland and to misdemeanours. ,He consented, however, to postpone the consideration of his amendment till a future time, when he proposed to bring them forward as part of a more general measure. He did not think that the best way to deal with the amendments was to take them all into consideration together. The accused person had in this case to make out his own statement—he had to tell his own story. And, if he satisfied the sessions, or the magistrate, as the case might be, he was to be dischargei. If he did not satisfy them, he was to be committed for triaal at the discretion of the magis trates. That was in his opinion a great improvement, but whether it amounted to so great an improvement or safeguard as to render transportation unnecessary, was quite another question. While he was on his legs, he would say one word upon transportation, as that punishment had great weight in Ireland. He had heard from persons from all parts of the United Kingdom, that the fear of that infliction had a great effect in deterring the people from the commission of crime. He also wished to suggest anether matter, which did not require to be brought forward in the shape of a Bill. He held it to be of the utmost importance that any person who for any offence should have been sen tenced in Ireland to transportation, should not have any inter val between the sentence and its execution. The person or er.nviet should be sent at once from the dock to the vessel, and that would have more the effect of overawing the criminals anti deterring them from the commission of like offences for the time to come, than double the punishment not accom principle. He wanted to know if any Noble Lord in that House would give the Lord Lieutenant power to transport a man supposed to be of a dangerous character. He was sure that no Nob'e Lord would grant such a power. They were too much imbued by English feelings to do so. If they were really to transport a man for his bad character, better for them to de so avowedly on that ground ; and there ought to be a searching inquiry into his character. Let him suppose the case of a lover, or that of a man going to see his priest, and that either of them were suspected to be going to join a party of White boys, who were to meet that night, and were accordingly ar • rested. The coincidenoe of such a meeting (in case there was one) would be certain to condemn them before a jury. These were the suspicious circumstances which the Noble Lord thought justified the passing of such a clause. He did not distrust the circumstances," into the clause, was a great improvement. The Noble Lord who had last spoken, had referred to the terror which would be induced by this measure, and adduced it as an argument for giving extended powers to the executive Govern ment. But the same argument would apply in every case here Government demanded extraordinary powers. He did not feel disposed to dispute the propriety of arming tho Go vernment with these extended powers, but he yet felt that the amendments proposed by the Noble Earl were improvements upon the original measure, and he should therefore support their adoption' , • Lord 111011 EAGLE said that if this were a question of law, he shout consider it presumptuous indeed in him to rise after the Noble Lord who had last spoken. But although he disclaimed all idea of vying with his Noble Friend in legal knowledge, he thought that as regarded a knowledge of Ireland he was better informed than the Noble Lord who had sup ported, or the Noble Earl who had moved the amendments. There could be no more painful position than for a person con nected, as he himself was, with Ireland, to rise for the purpose of advocating the enforcement of strong penal measures, and nothing but the strongest sense of duty could have induced him to come so prominently forward. If he were mistaken in sup porting coercive measures, he had seine satisfaction in looking to the past history of Ireland, for be found that, if err he did, he erred in good company ; he erred in the society of the best and wisest that country had ever produced—men who were warmly attached to popular institutions, and strenuous in de fence of civil liberty. He could not look to that question as if it were brought before the House for the first time. He found Lord Plunkett advocating such a measure both in and out of office. Sir John Newport took the same course ; but the greatest name of all remained to be mentioned. In respect of this very measure, Henry Grattan, when at the height popularity, and at the hazard of his life, came forward support it. He, the creator of Irish independence, the of his nd and leader of the Irish people, in a British t rteto House of Parliament did not hesitate to give his aid to the passing of a coercive measure. That measure, too, was infinitely stronger than the present one. Every day added a new crime to the dark catalogue which dis graced the country. He would call their Lordships' attention to the fact, that the concealment of crime in Ireland did not arise from any desire to oppose the law—it arose from intimida tion. If they referred to the testimony of Sir John Davis, they would find that there were no people more imbued with the love of justice than the Irish. The rich had much greater protection afforded to theta than the poor, and it was for the purpose of affording them the safety to which they were entitled that he rose to defend that Bill. No person contested the principleof the measure; his Noble Friend had admitted it, and the only question was as to the duration of the punishment. and he would meet all the arguments which bad been urged against the Bill by this assertion, of which no one could deny the complete justness, namely, that they were bound to adopt such a modicum of justice as would render the measure effec tive. He could show that the sentence of imprisonment for three years would be more cruel than transportation, and that transportation would be more effective for carrying out the objects of the Bill. Yet there was another fact which he would impress upon their Lordships, that this was by far the mildest and most unconstitutional measure that ever was proposed for the adoption of Parliament. Mr. Grattan's Bill committed the trial to the bench of magistrates, and that vc ithout the benefit of a jury. By the present Bill the case would be submitted to a judge of the land, a tribunal which it must be admitted was tar more constitutional than the bench of magistrates, inflamed as they might be by the transactions oc curring around. But the result of the punishment by imprison ment would be this, the criminal would return from the gaol an adept in every kind of lawless violence, particularly if he were disposed to any of those offences before his punishment. He could never give a vote on any subjecl more painful to his feelings than on the present occasion, as hewas unwilling to be considered the supporter of a measure, which would tend to the restriction of the liberties of his country ; but having a strong conviction on his mind, that by limiting the perisd of punish ment they would deprive the measure of its efficacy, he did not consider that it would be just or manly to give a silent vote. judges of the land, who were to try the parties, but he would ask how could the judges pronounce upon ch a r ac t er ? How could they proceed'? Was there to be a public investigation ? It seemed to him quite impossible that such a mode of pro ceeding could be justified. A man perfectly innocent came as much within the reach of the Bill as the most guilty, and such a man might be condemned to the severest punishment, and not only himself, but all depending on him. He thought it monstrous that their Lordships would sanction such a clause. Let him suppose a man evicted from his land under the clear ance system, and that he expressed those feelings which had been entertained by such a man as long as human nature was what it was—if, under such circumstances, although innocent and unoffending, the actual victim of oppression was trans ported for his expression of strong feeling, would it not be most mcnstrous ?—( Hear, hear.) The system would also have tke effect of lowering the character of the police in Ireland, inasmuch as it would create a system of espionage de grading to that body, and calculated to impair their efficiency. If the law was to give this power to the police, it would utterly destroy the liberty of the subject. Neither did he think this power should be given to the local magistracy, though he had a great respect for them, without its being greatly abused. They were to have communication with the Lord Lieutenant, but he had no more means of knowing the character of the man than the Judge. The accused party, if convicted, was to be sent from the dock to the ship, and therefore what power or means of appeal to the Lord Lieutenant had he ? These were the reasons paniect with that celerity of execution. God forbid that the convict should be hurried away to New South Wales or Van Diemen's Land before the Crown had time to exercise its pre rogative of mercy ; but he still thought that such a course would have a prodigious effect in increasing the (care of crimi nals. They all knew what had happened in Yorkshire some twenty years ago. There was a conspiracy between a father and his daughter to charge a person with rape. That was carried into effect in the morning. Between nine and ten o'clock they gave their evidence on the trial. By ten o'clock both judge and jury saw the necessity of a verdict of acquittal, as there was perjury in the case. The judge who presided asked if the grand jury had been discharged, and, on being told that they were not, he desired them to consider the case of the father and daughter. The grand jury sent in :heir bill at eleven o'clock, the . prisoners Were tried it twelve, and by three they were on their way from the gaol in a cart, in the beginning of the execution of their sentence. Every one who knew the northern circuit would admit, that for the next ;hat influenced him in making objection to this clause, If it was the object of the Bill to enforce obedience to the pro clamation, surely twelve months' imprisonment, with hard labour, would be ample punishment for being out at night. If a more stringent clawe were required, let it be inserted, but let it be so worded as not to endanger the liberty of an inno cent man, and perhaps the lives of his family. No man was more opposed to agrarian outrage than he was; but there were ample means of framing clauses to meet such cases as moo being found wandering about at night with arms con cealed about their persons, or other suspicious circumstances. What was the real cause of this system of agrarian outrage ? What was the bottom of it all? They all knew it was the rooted hatred of the poor to the law, the result of long ages of gross misgovernment ;'and they had been told by high autho rity that in Ireland there was one law for the rich and an other for the poor, and long ages of misrule had con vinced him of the fact ; and in order to eradicate that three circuits the effects of the proTiptitude of this punish ment had a salutary effect in diminishing the amount of crime. He mentioned that fact as he only wished to show the great and salutary effects produced by promptitude in the infl.ction of punishment. He wished also that the Executive Government would take care that when a murder had been committed, the old practice of executing the sentence as near as pessible to the scene of crime should be revived. He knew the bad effect of the present principle in Lancashire where the executions took place at the end of the county, probably distant from the scene of the crime, and the Westmoreland peasant had the sight, but not an example. He would only say, in conclusion, that if these suggestions were followed the effect would be a di- minished amoutii of crime. Their Lordships then went into Committee on the Bill. On the first clause being read, Lord BROUGHAM referred to the amendments in this clause which the Lord Chief Justice (who was absent) had in tended to propose. He Lord Brougham could not agree to the preposition that the testimony of three magistrates should be required before a district was declared. if they waited till three magistrates sent up evidence of a district being in a state of disturbance they might fail in very many instances. Lord CLANRICARDE entirely agreed in the opinion that the declaring of a district should be left to the Lord Lieu tenant. Lord BROUGHAM thought that the interference of three magistrates would in many cases operate injuriously. The Lord CHANCELLOR made a reference to the Act. 3 and 4, Win. the I t ~ in respect to this point, the applicatien of which we did not understand from the low tone in which his Lordship spoke. The Earl of WICKLOW remarked, that as the Lord Chief Justice would not be present till next week, and as the feeling of the House appeared to be against the adoption of his amend ment, he thought it would not be fair to wait for him. Lord BROUGHAM said his Noble and Learned Friend did not stipulate for three magistrates being required to depose as to the state of a district before it was declared. All that he wanted was, some better foundation for proceedings than those in the present Bill. Lord COTTENHAM was of opinion that the matter would be best left in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant. The clause was agreed to, as were also clauses 3,4, and 5. On clause 6 being read, Lord CLANCARTY observed, that the Noble Lord who had introduced the measure had complained of the very great difficulty in getting witnesses to come forward when any crime had been committed. There was nu doubt that individuals who came forward to give their evidence were exposed at times to very great danger. It was not, however, so much the dread of personal harm that prevented witnesses coming forward, as it was the fear of having attached to them the stigma of being considered as informers. It was a very dir ferent thing to give evidence in Ireland from what it was in England. He would earnestly propose to her Majesty's Go vernment that powers should be given to the local magistrates to compel vi et armis persons to come forward whom they be lieved were competent as witnesses. Lord CAMPBELL was of opinion that the law had already provided fur the difficulty which the Noble Lord had com plained of. A witness might be compelled to come forward, and even be detained in custody until the trial should come on at the assizes. He was also liable to be punished with fine and imprisonment if he neglected to appear when called on. He believed that all the law could do had already been done to provide for the case. After a few words from Lord WICKLOW, the clause was ordered to stand part of the Bill. On clause 7 being read, a long conversation, inaudible is the gallery, ensued between Lord Cottenham, the Lord Chan cellor, and Lord Campbell, after which the clause was made part of the Bill. Clause 8 was next proposed, when The Marquis of WESTAIEATH considered that the remu neration to persons who might be injured should not be paid until the amount had been levied on the county which was li able to pay, and that it should not be paid out of the consoli dated fund. He hoped the clause would be altered to the effect he proposed before it was made part of the Bill. Lord MONTEAGLE objected altogether to any such alter ation being made. The consolidated fund was contributed to equally as much by Ireland as by England. The Marquis of WESTAIEATH withdrew his amendment, and the clause was ordered to stand part of the Bill. Earl GREY believed that it would be neither fair, proper, nor just, that the landlords of Ireland should be exonerated from paying their share of the expenses incurred in prosecutions. He thought also that the present dreadful state of the Irish people would never have existed if the landlords of Ireland had done their duty to the people under them. He should alto gether object to clauses 13 and 14. The Earl of RODEN, with some warmth, said that if the Nuble. Earl intended to state that the evils with which Ireland was afflicted arose from the neglect of the landlords, or from any impropriety on their part, he (Lord Roden) should feel it his duty, by as direct a contradiction as was consistent with the rules of the Bouse, to deny the veracity of any such assertion. The Earl of FARNHAM would also deny the Noble Earl's assertion. All the harm he wished the Noble Earl for the re mark was that he might be an Irish landlord, and be obliged to undergo the painful task of residing on his estate. Earl GREY explained, that possibly he had spoken with too much warmth. A great change had taken place in the treatment by the landlords of their tenants. The present evils with which Ireland was afflicted were perhaps mainly attri butable to the past history of that country. The state of things now existing there was the direct consequence of the dereliction of the former landlords in their duties to the people. —(Cries of " No, no.") It was an historical fact, with which not only England, but all the world, was acquainted, and all that the Noble Lords opposite might say or do would not make the fact less true. The Earl of WICKLOW was of opinion that the present condition of Ireland was owing to the gross mismanagement of this country. He admitted that a great change had taken place, but he would protest against the historical facts which the Noble Earl had employed. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was opposed to the intro duction of the clauses to which his Noble Friend had objected. Now, he asserted that these murders were committed by strangers frequenting the country, and who were concealed, partly from a general feeling of hospitality prevailing through out the country, and partly he was afraid from a secret con nivance.—( Hear, hear. ) Lord CL AN CART Y observed that the Noble Marquis had rightly stated the source of these lawless assassinations, and it would be their duty to avail themselves of the machinery which that Bill would afford them to relieve the poor people from the support of that class of vagrants. He would wish the Noble Earl were a little oftener present at the inquiry then going on with reference to the Irish poor-law, as he anticipated much good would be effected from his knowledge of Irish affairs. He had been instrumental in putting the Noble Earl's name upon the Committee, but as yet they had gained but little from his intelligence. Earl GREY said that he told the Noble Lord distinctly that it would not be in his power to attend, and yet, in spite of that communication, he persevered in placing his name upon the Committee. He had attended the first few days, as it was in his power, but since that time it was utterly impossible that he could attend. The consideration of clause 15 was then postponed. Earl GREY felt it his duty to move an amendment on the 16th clause. That clause made it an offence, transportable for. fifteen years, for a person to be out of his house an hour after sunset. Now they must recollect that this was a trifling police offence, and by no means involving the breach of any moral principle ; he, therefore, would move that the punishment should be limited to imprisonment for one year. It seemed to him that the power which was proposed to be conferred, and not now fur the first time, upon the executive Government of Ireland, was one which should not be conferred unless under the most extraordinary circum stances. Ile might be told that the ease for which such a clause was intended was one which called for so severe a pun ishment. He did not, however, consider that the circum stances of Ireland presented any such case as that. He was of opinion that the personal liberties of the inhabitants of a pro claimed district should not be so fettered as that they would he obliged to stay within their cabins from about four or five in the afternoon of a December day till half past eight the follow ing morning; and that they would not set their foot out of their miserable cottages during a period of sixteen hours without subjecting themselves to these severe penalties. A peasant may not visit his friend—may not go to his work, without running the risk of being arrested by a policeman, and afterwards being obliged to prove (what no man could prove) that his intentions were fr., e from criminality. It was said by the Noble Lord that the clause was necessary, and that it only applied to persons who were found under suspicious circum stances.e, He could net, however, consent that it should ever different conclusion ineinto operation in any of those disturbed districts, and no arguments that he had heard could induce him to come to a a poorman, forgetful, Was it to be supposed that their Lord. to relieve the tediumn.P.Oirfol,aaPsi; ships were to pass ;, of such unexampled severity, because sixteen n th h e our s enactment, confinements houl d i n w ish his offence, out to breathe the fresh air, that, miserable cottage by transported to a penal settlementoilOirdfi for such a venial subject himself to be one, would' utterly shocking to every principle of natural years . It as that, s° i s as a ' House with that " Not content" should the Bill come before their Lordship;' clause inserted in it, he, for to it. He might be told that it dicii,:rosot3..a'zpal men, but to vicious and insubordinate y n, t i o t r a a t c t eele only who were found in what was called "suspicious circum stances," would come under its inflecnce. What, he would ask, were suspicious circumstances ? Ile wished to know how they could distinenish between two men who were found out, one upon a really useful oc c asion, and another who was in fluenced by improper motives . He would take two instances. join a party of Whiteboys, out for the purpose of visiting his sicksS uppforsi friend, e n ( d rir an m d an a , no g t e h i e n r g a policeman, what differ ence,and suppose both arrested by would ask, could be found in the external circumstan ce s going to he s innocent ? No man proper motives, and that the other was . to justify them in saying that one man was . influenced by im• say under such could pronounce upon the human heart, and therefore it would be impossible, with any regard to justice, to circumstances who was innocent or who was guilty. The mere fact of a man being out at night was not a crime, and could not justify such a severe punishment. He had heard it stated out of the House that there was a mode of detecting a man — that his character would criminate him. If that was really the ground on which they proposed to go, it was a most dangorou3 feeling would they pass such a measure as this? Would these cases of oppression which he had pictured, and which it would be impossible to avoid under this Bill tend to eradicate this feeling? Would it not rather tend to increase the evil, and exasperate the feelings of the people? Would it not rather be better to rely on the ordinary law of the land? He knew he would be met by the argem .nt that this was no new measure. But that was an additional reason why he would oppose it, because such measures never had any other effect in Ireland than to create a worse feeling amongst the people of that country against the Government by which they were ruled. He begged to apologise for having trespassed upon the House so long, but he would now conclude by proposing that the sentence should be twelve months' imprisonment instead of transportation. Earl WICKLOW said he conceived that there was no class of the community in Ireland who would more rejoice at the passing of this clause than the peasantry of Ireland, the very class for whom the Noble Earl had made SJ pathetic a speech. He ( Lord Wicklow) admitted this clause was a severe one; but, though similar acts had been enforced before, he never heard of a case of such hardship and tyranny as the Noble Earl bad been so pathetically describing. In answer to the Noble Earl's pathetic speech, he (Lord Wicklow) begged to refer the House to the speech of a great statesman, Lord Grey, who in 1833 introduced a similar measure, the severity of which he lamented, but he said that its very severity was its best security. This present Bill made a misdemeanour a transport able offence, and the Bill of Lord Grey contained a clause pre cisely similar. The Lord CHANCELLOR and Lord Giatreet.i. said that Lord Grey's Bill contained no such clause. Earl WIC LOW continued to say that he considered this Bill would be useless without this clause, and therefore he would oppose the amendment. Lord CAMPBELL said that the Bill of 1533 made the in timidation of witnesses a transportable offence ; but the being out at night was made simply a misdemeanour, without de fining any punishment beyond fine and imprisonment. The Noble Lord then read the clauses he alluded to, the words of which bore out his statements. He then continued to say that in the present Bill no distinction whatever was made between the offences, and therefore he should say that so far this Bill had been most unhappily framed. The offences of intimidating a juryman or a witness, or being out armed were transportable offences ; but no distinction was made between those offences. and that of simply being out at:night, perhaps upon his lawful business. So that a man being out at night, unarmed, or banded, but " under suspicious circumstances," as the Bill had it, was to be transported for fifteen years. The Noble Lord then read a supposed case, upon which a form of indictment liad been framed, and contended that a document so loosely worded should not be permitted to exist. A man might be out upon an affair of gallantry or some other matter which was not upon a " lawful occasion", but yet it might be found difficult to prove that it was unlawful. He (the Noble Lord) did not believe that the present measure was the proper cure for the malady that prevailed in Ireland ; for they could not make the law more respected by making it more cruel and unju't. He trusted that, on consideration, they would come to the convictioo that their object would be better attained by acceding to the amendment of the Noble Earl. Agrarian outrages were condemned by every man in the country, and by no men more strongly than Air. O'Connell, who had ever set his face aeainst such.—( Hear, hear.) And he should then say if the Nil) passod in its peasant form it would have the effect of aggravating, rather than correcting, the evils complained of. —( Hear, hear. ) Lord BROUHANI said he had attended to the arguments of Noble Lords on both sides, and he should confess that, in his opinion, the subject had been approached with an absence of all party feeling.—(Luud cries of " Hear, hear.") But after having given the fullest consideration which he could to the arguments, he was forced to admit that he was entirely in favour of the Bill without the amendment. In his opinion some of his Noble Friends had been led away by their feelings on the occasion, and had not sufficiently attended to what the nature of the power intended to be bestowed on the Government really was. His Noble Friend who had moved the amendment, all along affirmed that the very venial offence of being out an hour alter sunset was a misdemeanour, and punishable by transportation. But it was not for so venial an offence that he was liable to transporta tion, but for an offence which he (Lord Brougham) considered by no means venial—being out under sus picious circumstances, and not on lawful, and there fore on unlawful, occasions—the law having declared that public security required that he should not be out on such unlawful occasions. —(Hear, hear.) Now there had been a distinction sought to be drawn between what was a moral and what was a legal offence. Now, he (Lord Brougham) could not at all conceive the difference, as a well disposed subject should ever consider that what was opposed to law was opposed to right, and, consequently, to morality. Again, a man was not to be transported for fifteen years for so venial an offence as Noble Lords imagined; for the Court was armed with a power to examine wheter he was nut on lawful business or under suspicious circumstances,—( Hear, hear.) What better security, he wished to ask, could there be, than that the Judge before whom the man would be tried would go into the particulars of the case, and direct the jury as to the nature of the offence? And then, even though he should be found guilty of being out under suspicious circumstances, the same judge would mete nut such punishment as, under all the circumstances of the case as proved before him, should appear to him to be just. —( Hear, hear ) If the man hap pened to be out under circumstances of a very mischievous nature always taking into account the tate of the neighbourhood or locality and that he was proved to be a man of good character, would not that go into the jury-box in his favour ?—( Hear, hear.) And was it not certain that the sentence of the Court would be perhaps a day, or two days imprisonment, or perhaps a fine of five shit lings ?—( Hear, hear.) It had been asked, " why were not the suspicious circumstances defined?"—(" Hear, hear," from Earl Grey.) Now his answer to that was because it would be im possible to define them : for instance, one man being seen with a bludgeon, might be no great crime, but when 59 or 60 men armed with bludgeons were seen together, would not such be an aggravation of circumstances ?—( Hear, hear.) In reference to the mixing up of agrarian outrage with landlord tyranny, he ( Lord Brougham) should say they were questions that should not be mixed together, for every such consideration weakened the efficacy of the measure for the suppression of crime. Let the people be ever so misgoverned, that gave them no right to go out in mobs and make life insecure and property valueless in that ill-fated and unhappy part of the empire.—(Bear, hear.) When the time carne for considering the grievances under which the agricultural population laboured, he would be as ready as any Noble Lord to enter into the question, but he felt disinclined to mix the questions at present—( Hear, hear)—and he there fore felt it his duty to support the measure, in doing which he could not avoid saying that he was giving his support to a measure infinitely less stringent than the one which he (Lord Brougham) had the honour to present to their Lordships fur acceptance. It was true, there was this severity in the present measure that did not exist in his Bill, namely, the making mis demeanour a transportable offence ; yet he could not help say. ing,' that in his opinion, the court-martial clauses in his Bill were decided the most important clauses in the measure, and fully justified his anticipation, as not a single man was tried under them, so great was the terror which they inspired.— ( Hear, hear. ) The Marquis of CLANRICARDE considered that if the amendment proposed by the Noble Earl (Earl Grey) were carried, that the Government would be armed with no more than the ordinary power. As to teaching people to respect the law, such could not be done by letting them see, year after year, that by a combined effort they could defeat it, and overreach the constituted authorities.—( Hear, hear.) They argued on this matter as if the law were to be universally applied all over Ireland, but their Lordships should recollect that its operation was limited to the disturbed districts, and no honest man, he would undertake to say, would in such a dis trict be found out of his house after sunset. The really good effect of the measure would be, that while it inspired honest men with confidence in the power of the Government, it at the same time struck terror into the hearts of the evil-disposed by the severity of its clauses. If the amendments of the Noble Earl were, however, acceded to, the Bill would be so weak ened in its operation that it would be comparatively useless. The very papers read by the Noble Lord who had introduced the measure were a satire upon the imbecility of the Executive Government, and formed the very best indictment that could be drawn up against them. If Government had long ere that time assumed a higher tone, if they had brought the power of the executive to bear upon the disturbed portions of Ireland, the evils they were then considering would have had no exist ence. He should oppose the amendments of the Noble Earl. Lord COTTEN El AM said that the Noble Earl, by his amendments, did not wish to rescind the clause to which the amendments applied; all he wanted was; to limit in some degree the punishment of offences. The first object of society was of Rille r e wd f o atn r s e :r6 ry l s i o te t te h rdo e i L y e ; :i s set introduced dt r o e b t r e ew s m t a t es o d py d r o o apn s o o s course to secure lif e an d p r operty, and the only question was, When aordai kn t ea h ri i yt s as Coercion tpm aetre ao-f . e e x cl t to m r t izt r law for Ireland, but it was now considered only as an ex things. With regard to this • particular clause in question, al though he would not deny for a moment tion on the liberty of the subject, sti ll l iat f this was a peacerestric of Ire land required it, the Governnent were the ht to persevere. 'this was a measure of precaution, adopted for g the preventing offences. It appeared to him, however, that punishment, as provided by the original Bill was unmercifully severe, and that the amendments of the Noble Lord would meet the exigencies of the case. They should remember that that there were gradations in crime, and that while one man might be out of his house after sunset for the worst of pur poses, another man.might be also out for purposes comparatively ^ =went. The introduction of the words " under suspicious Lord LONGDALE observed that there was no question made as to the principle of the Biil, nor was there any inten tion to offer it any obstruction, but the offence which it created was one of degree, and admitting of every variety of mitiga tion. The question, therefore appeared to him to be whether they should have the same punishment for each degree, or whether the punishment was to be limited by the description of the offence Y now he did think the latter was the most rea sonable point to view the question. Earl GREY said that as one year had been considered to be too short a period by his Noble Friend, he was quite willing to alter it to two. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that as it did not seem to be generally understood, he would take that opportunity of stating that it was the intention of the Government to limit the period of transportation from fifteen to seven years. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE would have no objection to voting for the Bill, provided it were limited. He would ask to what length of time it was proposed to extend the Bill? The Earl of Si'. GERMANS replied that, as the clause then stood, it was for a period of five years, but he was quite willing that it should be further limited to three. Lord STOURTON hoped that the Government would per severe in the limitation of the Act to five years. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE intimated that, at a fu ture time, he would take the sense of the House on the pro priety of limiting it to three years. Their Lordships then divided, when there appeared— Content .. 7 Not content Majority against the amendment .. —3l Clauses 24, 25, 26, and 27 were then agreed to. On the last clause being proposed, limiting the duration of the 13i11 to five years. The aarquis of CLANRICARDE thought even three years too long. It was the most unconstitutional Bill that could be enacted, and it should terminate, at the utmost, on the Ist October, 1849. The Earl of WICKLOW thought five years short enough. The necessity for its existence would be as strong at the ex piration of three years as at present. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that if it was pro posed to continue it longer than the time mentioned by his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Clanricarde), he would take the sense of the House upon it. ,Lord CLARE thought it wholly unimportant whether it con tinued three years or five years. The Earl of ST. GE•RMAN 11., was or so much importance that Lordships should be unanimous, or as nearly so as possible, that rather than run the risk of a second division on the point he would have no objection that the lesser period of three years should be substituted for that of five. It was then agreed, after some conversation, that the Bill should be limited in operation to three years. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 6. The SPEAKER. took the Chair at a few minutes before Four o'clock. SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were severally read a second time and ordered to be committed, Airdrie and B;thgate .Junction Railway. Rye and Derwent Drainage. Heywood Waterworks. Leicester and Tatnworth Junction Railway. Enfield Chase Road. Wakefield, Pontefract, and Goole Rail,vay, and Port, &c. of Goole. Welsh Charity School Incorporation. Creat Grimsby Gas Stafford New Gas Rugby, Leamington, and Warwick Railway South-Eastern Railway, No. 7 (Ashford Stations Enlargement) Monmouth and Hereford Railway London and Brighton and London and Croydon Railways Consolidation Monkland and Kirkintilloch Railway London and Oxford Railway Eastern Counties Railway (Epping Extension) Mr. NEWDEGATE moved the first reading of the Man chester Direct Railway Bill, which was ordered to be read a second time. Mr. KEMBLE moved that the order for the second read ing of the Mitcham and South-Western Railway Bill, on Monday, March 2, be made an order of the day for Monday, March 9, and that the Bill may be read a second time accord ingly on that day.—Motion agreed to. Mr. WILSON PATTEN moved that the Scottish Grand Junction Railway Bill, new placed in Group No. 5, bo re• ferrtd to the Chair man of Ways and Means, and the Members ordered to prepare and bring in the Bill. The motion was agreed to. Mr. GREENE also moved that the second readings of the following 13ills, notice for which has been given in the Private Bill-office for Friday the 6th of March, be made orders of the day for Mon , lay next, the 9,h of March. Chichester, Ports mouth, and &retain Railway Bill ; London and Birmingham Railway aid Birmingham Canal Arrangements Bill ; Eastern Union Railway (Ardleigh to Colchester) Bill. The motion was agreed to. Mr. BUSFEILI) presented petitions from places in York• shire, signed by upwards of 9,000 individuals, against the en rolment of the militia. _ A petition was presented from the Poor-law guardians of the parish of Caisley, remonstrating against the interference of the Poor-law Commissioners in their parish. Colonel T. WOOD presented a petition, very numerously signed by the inhabitants of Chelsea, expressing their satisfac tion at the proposed measure of the Government, and at the same time stating their belief that the measure would be materially improved if it included the total and immediate re peal of the corn-laws. Mr. WARD presented a petition, signed by the Lord Mayor and council of the city of York, and also by 15,000 of the principal inhabitants, against the enrolment of the militia. Mr. T. DU.NCOMBE presented several petitions against the enrolment of the militia. Mr. ESTCOURT brought up the report of the Standing Orders' Committee. Mr. BRIGHT presented several petitions from the county of Somerset praying for an immediate repeal of the corn-laws. Mr. HUDSON presented a petition from some place, the name of which did not reach us, in favour of protection. Mr. YOUNG moved that the Speaker do make out his warrant for the election of a burgess to serve in the present 'Parliament in the room of the Honourable Thomas Carnegie, who had accepted the office of one of the Lords of the Treasury. PROTECTION TO LIFE AND PROPERTY. Mr. YOUNG presented a petition from Clare, in favour of the Government measure for affording better protection to life and property in Ireland.' THE LEICESTER AND TAMWORTH RAILWAY. Sir ROBERT PEEL presented a petition from the mayor and inhabitants of Tamworth in favour of this railway. THE TIMBER DUTIES. Sir ROBERT PEEL presented a petition from the port of Sunderland, signed by one hundred and forty-four shipowners, in favour of the proposed reduction of the timber duties. The petitioners were not partners in any joint stock com pany, but individual shipowners, and stated that the proposed reduction of the duty on Baltic timber would be of the greatest importance, as it would enable them to compete with foreign shipowners in the building of vessels. They not only prayed the House to reduce the duty, but to abolish it altogether— ( Hear, hear, )—as they considered that such a step would not injure the Canadian-trade:—(Cheers. ) LONDON AND OXFORD RAILWAY. A petition was presented in favour of this Bill. Mr NEWDEGATE (in the absence of Mr. Spooner) moved that the petition of Joshua Tournlin Smith, presented yester day, be printed with the votes.—Agreed to. AMALGAMATION OF RAILWAYS. Mr. W. PATTEN said he had been directed to make an inquiry from the Vice-President of the Board of Trade with respect to the very important question of the amalgamation of existing railway companies. The railway Committee of which he was a Member experienced great difficulty in the cases of amalgamation which came before them. He was in. duced to ask the question which he was about to put to the Right Honourable Gentleman, not only for the purpose of enlightening the railway Committees, but also the public at large ; because it was one which involved circumstances of a very serious nature. He wished , then , to know 'whether the Government intended taking any measure t his sess ion with the view of settling the different amalgamation Bids now before Parliament. The Committee had directed him to put the question before they proceeded any further with the subject. One of two pl ans h a d been submitted for tt ,,e se ttl emen t o f th e .. that the opinion of question; but h e th oug ht he might state the country Committees wouldwasbe that m a u question rac6 estio : ofl s tsutie eh uto aas ray timpo cie r t t e a r z irtd e e to the THE SUN, LONDON. SATURDAY EVENING, m'A. Rcm 7, 1846. upon by the Government, and if not by them at least by some Select Committee to be appointed by the House. He there fore wished to ask the Government whether they intended taking any step in the matter? Sir GEORGE CLERK said that the question of the amal gamation of existing railroads had been fully considered by the Railway Department of the Board of Trade last year ; and one of the reports which they presented to the House was devoted exclusively to this subject. In that report they laid down general rules under which such amalgamation should be permitted. In every instance the amalgamation of existing railroads was permitted, because where the railways proposed to be amalgamated lay in the same direct line, the public would be advantaged b} the traffic being carried throughout the whole length of those lines under the same manage ment. But, on the other hand, it would be depriving the public of the benefit of competition, if railroads that ran parallel to each other were permitted.—(Hear., hear.) He did not know whether, as a general principle, amalgamation should be permitted or not; but he was of opinion that it would be extremely ineonvenient that where amalgamations were proposed to take place, that they should be referred to the same Committee as those which sat on separate Bills. In ge neral, those amalgamation Bills were not opposed ; they came before the Committee as unopposed Bills, and the attention of the Committee was given to Bills that were opposed. He thought in consequence that all those Bills should be referred to the same Committee, who should take care that no amalgamation took place which would not be for the benefit of the public. Sir G. GREY wished to know whether the Government would propse, as the Committees were now about to sit on railway Bills, any suggestions for their guidance (as we un derstood) respecting the broad and narrow gauge? Sir GEORGE CLERK said that he had half an hour ago seen the parallel evidence, and that he hoped in a week or fortnight to lay it before the House. After a few words from Mr. BARING and Sir GEORGE CLERK, which we could not catch, Mr. F. MAULE said that many of the Bills would not at tract the attention of the Committee at all with respect to amalgamation. PENSIONS FOR GOVERNMENT SERVICE IN INDIA. Sir V. BLAKE begged to — put a question to the Right Honourable Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government, the purport of which it was understood was to inquire whether Ilse Ministry were at a►l likely to bring in a Bill for providing pensions for those individua►s who lost their employment atter long service. If not, he should himself bring in a Bill for giving a pension of 75/. a year to all those who have filled prin cipal situations after twenty years' duty. Sir ROBERT PEEL was really not aware the Hon. Baronet was going to ask such a question. He had not given any notice—at least it did sot stand for to-day—(Cries of " 2' o, no")—er he would have taken care to have provided himself with the information on the subject. The Hon. Baronet was quite competent to bring in a Bill if he thought proper, or if he chose to put a notice on the paper, he would be prepared to give a reply on a future day. SCOTCH TURNPIKE ROADS. Sir JAMES GRAHAM moved the second reading of the Turnpike Roads (Scotland) Bill, in order to have it postponed for ten days, in consequence of the absence of the Lord Ad vocate. FAMINE IN IRELAND. Mr. O'CONNELL rose to call the attention of the House to a letter which he had received from a Catholic clergyman, de• tailing the misery which existed in his parish. The reverend gentleman detailed that in his whole district there were 1,222 farailies, comprising 7,332 individuals ; of these, 72 fa milies had six months' provisions, 16 had four, 184 had three, 43 had two-and-a-half, 218 had two, 87 had six, 200 had four, 23 had three, 57 had ten, 32 had one, and 309 were without any provision at all. He was sorry the Hon. Member for Queen's County (Sir J. C. Coote), than whom a better landlord did not exiit, was absent, because he -.could be able to corrobate intelligence which he (Mr. O'Connell) had received from that part of Ireland, that half of the potatoe crop of his tenants had been utterly de stroyed, and that they were compelled to subsist as they best could, on the indifferent portion left, and on the charity of their friends and neighbours. PROTECTION TO LIFE AND PROPERTY IN IRELAND. Mr. ROSS presented a petition from Antrim, in favour of the Government measure for affording better security to life and property in Ireland. SUPPLY. Lord INGESTRE asked when the Government proposed to move for a Committee of Supply ? Sir R. PEEL said the Government would be entirely guided by the length to which the discussion on the Govern ment measures might extend this evening. THE GOVERNMENT MEASURES.—ADJOURNED DEBATE. The House then went into Committee on the Customs and Corn Importation Acts. Mr. W. 0. STANLEY rose to propose the following amendment to the propositions of the Government :—" That in lieu of the duties now payable on the importation of corn, grain, meal, or flour, the product of foreign countries, there shall be paid a fixed duty of ss. per quarter upon wheat, 2s. Gd. on barley, and 2s. on oats ; meal and flour in proportion." He said, although he represented a purely agricultural county (Anglesey) he had not yet thought proper to trespass on the attention of the House ; and in now etatieg the grounds on which he had thought proper to propose this amendment, he should not occupy much time. Before he did so he had paid the utmost attention to the observations which had fallen from Hen. Members on both sides of the HotEe, but their ob servations had not in the least shaken the opinions which he had always maintained. In his estimation the propositions of the Government were just, and would con fer great benefit on the country. He would say, in the words with which the Noble Lord the Member for the city of Lon don concluded his last address to the House—" I think the interests of the country deeply involved in the immediate, com plete, and tranquil settlement of this question." He cordially agreed in these sentiments. It was most important to the best interests of the country, that the question of the corn laws should be set at rest, and that it should he effected immediately, completely, and in a tranquil manner. No person could say that the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet if passed into a law would be a tranquil settlement of the question ; and with reference to an immediate settlement of the question the recorded votes of that House had declared that it should not be immediate. Neither is it a complete ext ,le.iii,", eod ee a eeeef that it is not a tranquil settlement ;he would refer the House to we., Isea bee., stated he several Hon. Members in the course of the debate. Tee H., Alember tor Durham ( Mr. ',aright) and the Hon. Membee. for Wolverhampton ( Mr. Villiers) said they would agitate the question, year after year, so long as the duty remained on foreign corn. He would recal to the recollection of the House the speeches of Hon. Members on the Opposition benches. The Noble Lord the Member for Lynn (Lord G. Bentinck) said that he would vote for the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet, because in the course of three years there must be a general election, and that period would give them an opportunity of re-organising their forces, and of raising such a cry in the country as would compel the Government to rescind those measures if they should he passed. No one, then, could think the present a tranquil settlement; he therefore proposed an alteration in the proposition of Government, which he thought would be a complete settlement of the question. He felt assured that the country would be satisfied with a moderate fixed duty ; a duty of that kind would improve the revenue and would not injure the interests of the consumer. He had the authority of the Noble Lord, the Member for the city of London, who had stated that a fixed duty of five shillings would not raise the rice of foreign corn to the consumer more than one shilling. fhe Right Honourable Baronet at the head of the Govern ment had stated in his first proposition to the House, that the principle which he recommended he was not about to confine to any particular class or interest. Now, upon many other important articles of manufacture, such as cotton, linen, leather, and cheese, the Right Honourable Gentleman de clared it was his intention to reduce the duty ten per cent. On that principle he (Mr. Stanley) proposed that a moderate duty of 51. or. wheat, 2s. Gd. on barley, and 2s. on oats, per quarter, should be laid on these ar ticles. Another reason he had for proposing the duty was, that, while it would not hurt the consumer, it would be of great advantage to the agriculturist. He appealed to the Right Hon. Gentleman, and begged to as him why, in the face of all he had stated, and with the power he possessed of juicing of the state of the country, as First Minister, he felt justified in pro posing in the present instance a 4s. duty to be levied on home consumption, while after the lapse of three years foreign corn would be admitted free. It would be but justice to the agri culturists that when the duty on manufactured articles should cease the duty on agriculture should cease also. That was the reason he felt it his duty, though he calculated on very little support, to introduce the present measure to the House, and call upon lion. Members to deal with it as it might be deemed wor thy. The lion. Members on the other side of the House deceived themselves, arid they should pause before they ventured en such a step as to throw the country into a state of tumult and agitation by a general election. They would have to array their forces against the League, and such an operation would be attended with some difficulty, for if their proposition were carried out it would disarm their friends. He had no wish to go into the comparative merits of a fixed duty on the sliding-scale, it would be quite sufficient for him to submit his present proposition to the House. If he did so, he must ne ' cessarily go over ground that hail often been traversed before, and he certainly did think that it was for the interest of the country that there should be a complete and final settlement of this question. The SPEAKER having put the question, Colonel WOOD said that he, like the Hon. Gentleman op posite, had not as yet taken any part in this debate, and he would therefore now trespass on the attention of the House for a very short time.—(Hear, hear.) He would venture to say that the delay in the settlement of this question had caused most serious results to the poorer clams and the country at large. He was acquainted with a certain extensive miller who now, in consequence tof the delay of the settlement of the Right llonourable Baronet's measure, did not purchase one farthing-worth corn more than what would juat keep his twill going. All parties connected with the agricul tural interest were also suffering most:seriously from this delay. The small tenant farmers, about whom Hon. Members pro fessed to take so much interest, suffered the most seriously ; and the large farmers next. Lady-day was fast approaching, and the small tenant farmers naust prepare for the payment of their rent on that day, by the disposal of the little wheat which yet remained to them ; and he had no hesitation in saying that they were now losing three to four shillings upon every quarter of wheat, by reason of the present suspension of trade, and his firm belief was , that upon the settlement of this question the price of corn would either rise or fail to an awful ex tent. The present suspense in the corn trade was productive of the most serious results to the small tenant farmers. And now fur the large tenant-farmers. He believed that in consequence of the present ministerial proposal the duty on the importation of foreign corn had risen, and was up to the present day 18s. per quarter. ship loads of corn were arriving at every sea-port, and their contents were immediately warehoused, and the consequence tx add be that after this measure was disposed of, there would be a larger accumulation of foreign corn in the warehouses. But there was another class of society, who did not seem to have been regarded in this debate by any Hon. Member except the Hon. Member far Finsbury. The House would be aware that the measure had been brought forward lately to abolish the pre sent cruel law of removal to their natives parishes, and he hoped that whilst this House manifested its anxiety to pass the present measure, they would also have regard to the interest of the lower classes, by assisting to their utmost in carrying out the measure to which he had alluded. Let both measures go hand in hand together, and whilst they toook care of themselves, let then take care of their poorer neighbours into the bargain, by relieving them from the operation of the cruel law under which they were now suffering. For his part he was totally opposed to the motion of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, for in his opinion the time was arrived when a total repeal of the corn-laws ought to take place. He had no hr ci tation in saying that he had voted for every Act that had for its object the regulation, and the reduction of the import duties on corn. He remembered when the Secretary of War stated in the year 1815, that it was absolutely necessary then to vote for that Act, but he (Cal. Wood) had no hesitation in saying that the present Act of Parliament might have the effect of causing a calamity, over which, at present, they could have no control. The Act passed in 1315, and in the year 1816 the most calamitous harvest which he hal ever remembered the people of England had to contend with—when a little kiln dried corn would be most useful, but the then regulation of the averages prevented its introduction. The ports opened on the 16th of November, and they remained open until the 18th of August, during whic/ period the prices eernaia:d much the same, in consequence of the averages preventing the purchase • of corn Et a reduced price ; but alter that, when the harvest at home was made mailable, the averages fell, end forciln corn came in when it wee riot required Ile would be glad to meet an) lion. Gentleman who was ready to defend the corn-laws, and he would undertake to prove that every one of them, ac cording to the confessions of their supporters themselves, had been failures. He should vote fur no amendment against the proposition of the measure of her Majesty's Government— (lronical cheering)—because he was anxious that the measure , hould pa.s the Houses of P.-trliamcnt. Ile was quite sure that a fixed duty wou!d do more harm than good, and he vo'ed for this meaure because he thought the Right flon. Baronet at the head of the Government best knew what T. - as likely to pass. He thought the other branch of the Legislature ought to have a fair field upon which to (TO some good. Do not let. the House of Commons take all the credit. What he would . advise the House of Loids to do would be, to amend the Bill by proposing total repeal.—(Cheers. ) He was satisfied that if they adopted that course they would consult their own inte rest, and the country would then say. thank God, we have a House of Lords. He, therefore, sincerely hoped that the House of Lords would adopt that measure. Air. S. O'BRIEN said, his Gallant Friend had commenced by deploring the delay which had taken place in passing this measure ; and yet, in the course of his speech, he threw out a challenge to discuss, during the progress of this measure, all the corn-laws which had been passed since the year 1 515 Now, there was as great a discrepancy in that as in the two statements the Hon. Gentleman had made respecting the price. In the first place, he stated that this measure would raise the price 3s. or 45., and in the latter part of his speech he said it would make no difference at all. The Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government had stated that the price would be raised Is. or 25., but the Hon. and Gallant. Gentleman had improved upon that. The lion. Gentleman had referred to the law of settlement, hut that equld have no reference to the famine in I eland. If the present measure raised the price of corn, it was obvious that, as far as Ireland Has concerned, it would he better to delay the passing of the measure, for that would be beneficial to the poor. Granting all th , se provisions were correct, and that the great change that the Right Hon. Baronet had thought it his duty to show was not to be looked upon merely as a change on the importation duty on fliur, but rather as a great charge in the commercial policy of the country ; it seems that there was this great diversity of opinion bosh in this House and out of doors ; it seems still further that there was this evi,ent deter mination to continue this discussion through all the diff •rent stages of Parliamentary usage ; seeing, als3, that it was as . . serted that the uncertainty 'occasioned by what may arise in this House, or elsewhere, he did think that the It ght Hon. Raronet could not do less than grant the means of indulgence to the Hon. and Gallant supporter behind him, and to allow the di cussien on the law of settlement to precede the debate n., the alteration of the corn-law 3. Now he thought he was bound to remind the House that, seeing they were in a Brea minority, and that it was impossible to prevent thoin from protracting this debate to almost an interminable length, and occupying the time of that branch of the Legislature by a a cold discussion, he thol,ght he was entitled to show the House and the country that he and his Noble Friends near were free from any blame on that point. They might have clogged the notice-book with intimations of motions, which would have had that effect, but they had not taken that course. When the other night the Right Hon. Baronet had expressed a wish that the debate should proceed, the Hon. Member for Athlone (Mr. Collett) had refused to accede, and referred to several Members. _ _ Mr. COLLETT said his reference was made to the Peers. Mr. S. O'BRIEN—Yes, but he did not blame the HMI. Member, for he had not made his reference discourteously, but he lad raised a discussion which he bad even a right to do ; the same circumstance had occurred with respect to the Hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Buller.) When the Honourable Baronet had moved for going into Committee, that Hon. Mem ber had moved an amendment which also brought on a di: cession. He did not blame those Honourable Members,' btr he wished to show that he and his friends were free from all blame on this point. The only Member of those with whom he acted who had put a notice on the book, was the Hon. Member for Warwickshire, but it had immediately been set aside. He would repeat, he did not blame those Members, for he thought that in such an entire breaking up of a party as this question had proved, and in the important change which was likely to take place, that the measure which introduced it ought to be closely and doggedly discussed, and that it. ought to have the most mature deliberation in all parts of the House; but he must at the same time remind the House that, however severe might be the famine suffered by the people, and how ever high the price of provisions, or however great the disease amongst the potatoes. that he and his friends near him were free from all culpability. They were not responsilie for the non-opening of the ports, and the only reason he saw against such a measure was the fact that the Noble Lord had proposed it.—( Hear.) They were not responsible for the non- introduction of a temporary Bill for Ireland. Thee were net responsible for Parliament not having been summoned on the 22,1 of January ; and if the lion. Baronet chose to introduce measures of such vast importance, it was unfair to charge them with offering them a factious oppositton, because they were anxious they should be fully discussed. Now he was determined, whenever that charge was repeated, to protract the discussion. lie should not, however, interfere with the progress of the amendment. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but on our re turn to the gallery, we found that no division had taken place, and that Lord G. BEN TINCK was in possession of the House. The Hon. Gentleman states! that he considered that nothing could he more inconsistent than the speech of the lion. and Gallant Member when compared with the course he pursued. On the division which took place on the motion of the Member fo: Wolverhampton ; and his lion, and Gallant Friend (Colonel Wood) who formerly supported the opinions entertained by the protectionist party, now turned his back upon them and sup ported the propositions of the Government, though he was elected to support the sentiments which he (Lord George Bentieck) and those around him entertained. lie was sur prised, entertaining the opinions which he did wills respect to the poor laws, that he did not advise the Government to; defer the further consideration of the measures which they had proposed until the treatment of the poor (40 were being carted about from place to place, and who were sub jected to the greatest hardships) had been amended and re medial measures adopted. lie (Lord G. Bentinck) had never refused his support to any measure which hod for its object the admission of foreign corn to feed the poor of this country, daring years of scarcity and famine, and he had also supported the slialineer-scale introchwpd by the Right lion. Baronet, be. cause he believed that the corn-laws of 1815 required modifi cation, and that a graduated scale should be adopted. But even under the law of 1815, the price of corn in England in 1816 was cheaper than on the Continent, as he found that whilst corn in England was at 112 s. a quarter, it had reached 116. at Vienna; and that in 1817 whilst it was 112 s. in Eng land it was at 1375., at Vienna, 140 s. in France.—(Hear, hear.) He did not, however, wish to say anything in favour of the law of 1815, but whilst he approved of the sliding-scale of 1842, whirls the Government seemed to think was a great failure, he could net forbear saying that the corn law of 1815 had prevented foreign corn from being introduced into this country at famine prices, and consequently from materially injuring the agricultural and commercial interests of the country. After a few words from Colonel Woon anti Lord Joliet RUSSELL, (which were inaudible in the gallery,) Mr. COLLE"II stated that he did net wish to embarrass the present question, or unnecessarily delay its progress, but he must say, in answer to the charge of the Hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. O'Brien), that any word he had said with reference to the four Noble Dukes in the other House he helived to be perfectly true, and would again repeat the charges if necessary. Sir JOHN TYRRELL was surprised to hear the lion. 111(mber for Brecon ( Colonel Wood) state that he would vote in favour of the Government measure. lie (Sir J. Tyrrell) had always loeked upon the Hon. and Gallant Member as the Nestor of protection Ile was surprised at the general state of ignorance, with reference to the feelings and opinions of the constituency of the Hon. Member. He believed that there was a requisition in a considerable state of progress, by the members of the Gallant Colonel's constituency, wI o. knowing hiogreat honour, and the great hor.our which had always distin guished Its actions, had no doubt that he would meet the terms of that requisition in a perfectly manly and honourable manner.—(Laughter.) The requisition was, he believed, signed by a considerable number of gentlemen, and those per sons to whom allusion had so often been made in the coarse of the late monster debate. lie alluded to tenant-farmers, and he (Sir J. Tyrrell) was given to understand that in con sequence of the late mania for farming companies, this class had started " an Amalgamated Small 'Tenant-farmers' Asso ciation." What number of shares the Gallant Colonel thought it right to hold in that speculation he would not pretend to to say. —( Cheers and liughter.) While, however, he was on the subject of ignorance, he might be permitted to say that there was one measure which he would propose, and which, no doubt, would give satisfaction to the country—( Hear)-- one which would not interrupt unnecessarily the progress of the business of the House. lion. Members on his side of the House, who had accused the. Government of treachery, in not taking the sense of the country upon the subject of their treachery, they would be satisfied if the Members of the Go vernment would let them carry on unnecessary business of the country, namely railways; and when they came back to their places, after having an opportunity afforded them of appealing to their constituents, they would be satisfied with them, and in the interim would carry on all the necessary business of the country, railways, for they are the only matters of any im portance to the country. The Hon. Baronet concluded by saying, that they ought to rally round and support the corn laws as much as they would the Crown. Lord WOReLEY, although he agreed in full with the Hon. Gentleman's proposition, yet he did not see what he could gain by pressing it on for division.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. CUR TEIS wished to correct an observation made a few evenings since by the Hon. Member for Sunderland.—( Cries of " Order," and " Chair.") It had been stated in an agricul tural speech.—( Renewed cries of " Order.") Well, then, he would nut refer to what had been said, but state plainly that ho was prepared to show that the wages paid the agricultural labourers in Sussex were not ds. per week, but 12e., and in some instances 13s. per a w n e l e i k h — e ( cil e l a d r. s ) ta f t l e e ( t A h l a r t . e C ve u r r y te l i n i ) an wa in s a considerable farmer, his employment was paid at the rate of 12s. per week, He (Mr. Curtsies) was its favour of a 6s. or 4s. duty, or no corn-law at all ; anti he thought the Hon. Gentleman would get credit for much more discretion by not pushing his propo sition to a division. The farmers complained that they had not been treated fairly by the Right lion. Baronet at the head of the Government ; and many of them were ready to give up the corn-laws, provided the duty on hops and other imports were abolished, so that they could then do as they liked with their own.—( Hear, hear.) For himself, he could say that he was perfectly ready to give up the corn-laws, and that the agricultural portion of his constituents were ready to do the same. But he did think that whilst they were about to give cheap food to the people, they should accede to the wishes of the hop-growers, by repealing the malt-duty. He should con tinue to agitate upon that question until it was settled—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the question now before the House, he would express his belief that the attempt to impede the progress of Free-trade, was labour in vain, anti he therefore hoped that the amendment would not be persisted in—( Hear, hear.) But he would never restsatisfied until the duty on malt was repealed —(Hear, hear, and laughter)—arid this brough t him t o the point of he hop-duties.—(Cries of " Oh ! oh !" and laughter.) lie begged to state to the Right lion. Baronet, that he should feel it his duty to press upon the House that an amount, equal in proportion to half the excise duties, should he taken off the protective duties. The Right Hon. Baronet was going to take a'. ss. of protection off, and half the excise duty would therefore be about 10s. He really thought that if the Right Hon. Baronet would te uldoril to y w c a 7 d . , con sider this question, he would see tha t it was only b fair e the hop-growers, that an equa l p ro p ortion should taken off t,r at ewea , s e soeno his laesg sw—as( protection. andn A , n , Divide ")—ho he t he believed op. r h o a w t e a r s v very considerable e like to e nthaast,caosma farmer,ingover change on S usse x, whatever mighd desired him t o sa y that rather than have their cons tit u e n ts had the the fate of those in Khth,ieunettp.arnesyleinait all.—( st e ir y ti w ie o r u e l co d r b e e o w m i n t duties on malt shoul d be repealed by way of compensation. present. In conclusion he e ntirel y agreed with the Noble Lord ( Wors ley ) that this amendment should be withdrawn. Mr. HUDSON begged to state, in reply to what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman oppodte, that he had never, either in that House or in airy other place, made any state ments at all bearing upon the question of agricultural labourers' wages in Sussex. He had certainly, during the dis c:L.:tin on the coin-laws, svken of the agti:culttual wave paid in Wiltshire, in reply to the statements of the 11 s ° 4 1 Gentleman the Secretary at War. But he had neveranie't, the most d'stant reference to Sussex —( Hear.) He w much aratified indeed to bear from the lion. Gen r, labuid ure t f , opposite of the amount of wages paid to agricultural in Sussex, and he had no doubt that the House w 3 ( l ) i ,_ se re s rs o equally gratilied.—( Hear, hear.) Her Majestys must also feel pleasure when they heard that labourers we' liberally treated in the county alluded to. —( Hear, hea r: , x ) ,ier Mr. CU RTEIS begged to apologise t o the Hon. e But if he ha-.l misrepresented his statements.—( Hear, hear; ) dic ale, he was quite sure—( Loud cries of " Ostler, order, anu eoi al divide," in the midst of which the Hen. Grantlema n re'n' t his scat.) Lord DUNCAN having made a few observations, which did nut reach us, 0 Mr. W. . STANLEY then withdrew his amend Teftiar, Mr. M. MILNES then rose and said, that in brieltiohf ward his present motion he begged arid implored th _s‘ tita s c e lion. Bat onet to take hits consideration the great iairirias of compromising he present question, and thereby N - 00 7 } " t o the agitation which was at present so much felt in t , i d c erst a i° to a happy termination, He had come to that co - es from no citing time spent in examining the quertiot. tora would now shortly state the reasons why he brough t °r a bid) ! n i el e p i r e , o p t o ie se n d , andvas far e m considered ore eff ectthuealpresent arrangingrate o r !elle c .j o s the hit (jlt' than the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet ; and sad \Lines') scale of duty was simple and extremely fro ue i r- oe slif ' t ranged over a small amount of prices. In le4:?, he tfi ttr, ;ol his duty to declare in that flou,e that the scale of aver a. 1 . 00 complicated, and much too high, and nothing had occurr:°.ch to alter his opinion. No scale of protection, of that the farmers had under the present I P c io ef , at all sufficient to enable them to compete with the fe it :; e ti , He considered that the formidable combination of t . a thei r corn-law League would not be less zealous in prosecuotToiing designs. They could not obtain immediate pea" b] (! it ° the present measure, nor did he think they would des ci e i 4upe s proposing a scheme of prospective legislation , deP en we yel something that must happen at the expiration of t" t he Ifs It was the boast of the Right Hon. Baronet thantheorl; founded his measure, not upon a'prior evidence, not er eie sce but upon true inductive principles. Upon his °P i a be 01 0 :he last three years— what experience, however, cott to le , had of the three years to coma ? Suppose that in j a ed d, 1849 corn should be the same price as it was in 'dabaar think that, with corn in England at 375. a quarter, 'i vies , i c i; .rote of corn ready to come in from foreign htfaf a s sir :ling would be the consequence of the frig rie r d ij s tet . the tenant-farmers and producers of the country ? v es.l" ol think it wise to depart from those precautionary 00: which had regulated the trade of this country fg years. The Right Hon. Baronet possessed great por t 0 0 1 0 the country, but let him use it rightly—let hirn s t erst a l e anything so rash, or so hazardous as the prospective a, for in the corn-laws at the end of three years. It 0 45 el‘lo saes Minister of a country to give a great v ictor% F e tart y over another, and if this measure by in its present state, it would be regarde e oat class as a most triumphant victory es'edreerre'io class—a victory which would not fail to leave a ;o po. ol o o malice in the heart of society, and which it would te ' rc ats i o to eradicate. If he might be allowed to say a f e° , W h C ey li sj r te protectionist party, he would say that he thought ' ars i s i l l acted so wisely or energetically on the present occaiSre 0 1 1 0 , fusing all compromise on the present question. , f oef to e they should not refuse to vote with the Hon. IN' ' he roc s ,0 moved the last amendment. Whatever migh t be yoono of the population of this country, he considere d ; ie etie ri ss them to resist any alteration of the law of 1842• reat'',at conceive how any person, regarding the enormous iti c ,og Vol population, could regard the corn-law of 1842 as anYelopictd,a than a temporary measure, for the purpose of pav e d of industrial resources of the country. When h e 100. ge al oe map of the world, and saw the small amount of acriteela be, o 4 country compared w:th the rest of the world, and 't*, c ollet sider.ei also that England was the only wheat- o , 6° ' PIO the world, he really could sot conceive how ri,„ °l he . t aro' could wish to preserve the law of 1842 intact. t le ,„ this bi Right Hon. Baronet to act with his usual prudene%-orc',otl ter, and he would not fail to reap an abundant r knew the difficult position in which the Righ t i F ie u e ,eott e oe was placed, in endeavouring to sustain in hartnon'd and srfri the institutions of an ancient monarchy, a digni6e verfr,,ers able aristocracy, and a free people. lie hoped linwtehi6tepto Right Lion Baronet would not, by persisting i° be t.e e o sts l hold up to the world the spectacle of a co nfltet. ta to eel middle classes and the aristocracy. He begged pot to the expression of public opinion , He µ' ou to 1 11 'bios' doing compromise his eharaeter, but would sheor the coo !hat he is the ',Minister nut of one class but 0 es' ° e e l‘ r i g r e A s o G f E t , h i e o p ,N e o n p ‘ l ye t " O s obs tr osl i * did not with to place any wee e , fo gfl e the progress of the present Bill. He would, h° • oa e {c at' attention of the Right Hon. Baronet to the situat'd, eth'oe nninber of persons resident in the North of Engl i a ee t o es' considered connected with the corn-laws. Il e , a at rs e any person cou'd predicate the results of the Pr e nt ' ac lehipP; He found from the speeches which hid been t re o ,,f Members on both sides of the 'louse that differensice %off . been predicted. His conviction was that the Pr o as es l , 4 -.could be reduced by it. It had been said that a t t f i t aieg o als% farmer would be abte to compete with this gate ei cate oo o 4 increase of capital and skill, but in some part' of ho there are very few large estates and they are in to so ., class of persons called statesmen, a term ana lagl : 5 1 10 11 ' P, yeoman. They have no capital, their farals o itur"; cultivated for the most part by members of di et ' a erf c ,,th s They may no doubt apply themselves to chensica, relie s this House coald not give them capital, but 40° 1 " Thel fh e ' f ., from the difficulties under which they laboureTteaurela sbe present under the remnant of a system of feuchil ah iect a i s , farms were all held by copyhold. They are s 4 1, years' fine on change of proprietorship•ea so f 0 0 ', death of the Lord of the Manor they "' to e o 0;1 0 r ject to a two years' fine upon ever/ stai a r ee t i ti o t": 04 He did not wish to be understood by this Car ,f • d it , was opposing the present Bill. He was in f',,sar sad fe rids sure, but he wanted to do that which w as I.' which might result to the benefit of the co s the se 1 0 ,, dered that the House had power to enfranchise o deffe o rs'"o and thus render the farmers and their faaliii",,,, re see t te e of re, the results w high must follow the passing the,r rotp t,e, te ss 4 s The Hon. Member refereed to a report of a !- - ' o ,,yh w e itt i ;li House. appoints-et to inquire bito the law 0. n -- . 06, 1. 9 ,4 presented to that 11 '—'"`" on the 13th of Aug ust, ,ber; tePd r . the Right Hon. Baronet (fir R. Peel) "'" rtiffi t Se t ); the opinion of that Committee, that the ab ,„ o iotry, tPr'old of this nature would be profitable to the .°,ll oleo s 4 je to Aglionby) would nut presslthe question at W e ',o l eo ar o, but at some future stage of the proceeding' , nt er dfl have a full discussion, and would be able to e a f 00 0 4 the details, he would bring it under thene't ° or Sir R. PEEL hoped that the Hon. Merne' r f r oof" (Mr. M. Milnes) would not think him guit t l ef his s its), he disclaimed entering into the c onsideration ehale,oo $ Ile could not do so without dividing th e a w 001 ewer *hen he proposed his measure, he s tated t,'` ,3 f o r ' .1 ,i ! 4,0 , had induced him to believe that it was desira w t o f ' a sh ill that a time had arrived for the final settlerneiresal,asioati, tion. He could not he felt enter into the t ees o fi f ", Hon. Member, without optening the whole Vel e . p co .. es must therefore, state that he dissented froln ti ' , P ere fet' i sie' l ip; the Hon. Member, and he could not it ,i e of 0 /4 to the re-opening of the question, the pr,''% r e , co' D :ta ec i c e,' been decided by a large majority of that 1-I°u •d e rell ha r great measure of lion. Members who O n ' ) 0 0 t Oi ° I had tc' , 'o. e Y immediate repeal preferable, but woo , D ief• o o-04') voted in favour of the measures of her at se b ies o il . , The Hon. Gentleman says it would be a g re c lafg, *c t ioteir he seemed to forget that there was another foililierf4 object to it. The present law gave the sare e so itt t a ichdls o it would be very desirable, he admitted, t ° . tie es felt of transferring property, and the inconvenfe felt 1111,114 times occurred. The greatest disadvaritsget who had to purchase small p ro pertieV; l hayi o gDat is t ist more than by thole who had the power 0 ' 000004 f the expense was not so much a m atter 0' tit: fOr il St AI / inconvenience felt by delay. The imped in ' e bet of property were, lie admitted, very g reat; . t 1 Oro; it would be very unwi c discuss that elne st lsoet same tone he had no objection that the ( hr ieVi e ie.4 should reserve to himself the full power " , e ee' o s ati f . o„, the consideration of the House on some fut ur- hesi si t die)fl,it Mr. MILES said that the question was te ' o d Lb' tb, e a ir' t a great question of principle. Ile under t° have full and ample debates, and he cou'" .po s' th e h of that the feelings of tee Members who wer e ° o ut I, I , a ft . ), principles which would be known throug h s elsf e ,sei"aq \Vhen they arrived at that election' 0 0 r er e ,;! lieved was not far eft then it would ben ° ,fla t v' j yr , ro o i . opinions or those of the Right Hot. 13 , 5 ,‘ al o° ' oral agreeable ; and he would a-sure the Rign",,,,,rd. „aff i e ; until then, it was not his wish to saY ° tie hao lo te to ' o il' 1 impediment in his way, more than was a p ono e t or e e? , Alt lie would say was, that with all the al`,lool 0 01 0 sfi' lie entirely disagreed, and he would en si led o, ol‘ ft law which the Right lion. Baronet seei.herate'cio,o:o abolish. All he wished was full, d e coo for A i s' „. e o r discussion of the question, in order t hat_t ceoa r, t ier O, country may be arrive at. It wa , 0 / know 17,ty our statements that there w ould boat W ° r efr,lfs:s' agriculturul produce. He considered tam s to hi ted a sS O ) .l s ble for the present holders of f a r, a te ol , l3 rv' e ' s r a ir or to maintain their position, if the c , , 0 0n,e were carried into effect.— Hear, hear./ o bi the i orl y to say a few words on the chan.' o' ,,ja to have taken place in his opinion resP e l of t aa s 0 04 repeal in preference to the distant rel'e a t it of 0 3 The Right lion. Baronet conceived tharoesie'i'feje!arrA Miles's) opinion that he should prefer the of he r o ' ae lo t pott Lord the member for London to that' that be h O t f r , o ff il ; vernment. Now, what he stated pa' s 0 f bc' t (' r e decided opposition to the proposition ro d, eapi; time, as tar as the farmers were con ~r the t t h al'e s e l stated that he believed they would ere it i 3as onedar o r . Noble Lord to that of the Right Haa r I\le' - e oe aost her Majesty's Government. The " e . n h . at b e , r eer s or r et .e' t e chester bears me out in the statement fa ro- I , e o e ll i co • he; similar to that which he made on haying t' ea ste,at s 4 "; hoped and trusted, a great discussion at. th u oje de rt another would not then be introduce_d_; t he "t i tis f a was ready to go on with it if it were d ioiou as s, lt!A so f r , do so.—(No, no.) lie wished it o tn o h, t e ona to , that though they allowed those res t they t ee fs i opposed to every one of them, and , m it ? t , of ti o , l 4' ) proceed proforma, in order to opp%, 4, third reading, and finally come to a ali rot otto foa to the country that they o pposed the 'as`• o" t 1C I'4' ward by the Rightßaronet. „ ae m ei t ae Sir noBERT PEEL said it w oulo cc t d, d t o o that, becauso the lion. Gentleman a . ! it c in i ; t as e s he was not to oppose the Ineas ur ': t i c , s uer t at a ll, never further from ins intention ther, 1 110°1 0 1 01 li r , 1 Gentleman would not oppose the refio siti' ca l, $ le 1 declared that he would prefer the.P_rerd r e p are.) ffaidr,, Lord the Member for London to deteS - riea r,h r s aebl s , te e ila preferred the existing law to either-".tt. I f t he _ OO l,l a r t 1 4, , Gentleman (Mr. Miles) stated, t° to , he him thij eras Member for London stood to his g a e l to " ha ssooffidt suppo:t him.—( A laugh.) It a.l 4 P e nt r w hen ti the Gentleman was somewhat inconst!t:_. Whe .,tio e, .there was no difference between t . r 1 . 7 . the gee- o ,re ' , "„ r t tlernan states he would not enter to s sY same time it was hardly fair of a ia . n n tito great downfall of prices, Without li r a , ( sir o oce ssi:his/ arguments to support him. V , h e a u' eorril er (g r ' o r a removal of prohibitory duties °l('ieritleman (.. 000 introduction of cattle, the flon• esfi t oe st go i begged for a reduction of the duty c, t P w o o s u e ld of be Haar' el) did „ a se t ,'; titr) such were done ; but he (Sro ••• h e ar. t feeding an t.nm.tinh enormous d tl e e pr i e n s :. i h o i n s rt i s ', ti r a i o c t e ye pa r t' / I reification of that propliecy.—(Het!,,r'tride tle .., „„ r elYe ct ssj, Mr. 1)1ILES said, that whet' l i e a ss r he di d fe"oFf not his own individual opinion. ii ,, ) ,..,ano ve s f o 'ol o lll door opinion—(Cries of " t ", , and gleatlY‘e 00 that foreign cattle would accumula ° watc h evi,,,,se e ffsl . o o t e, reason for the increase of price*. i2r0,,,,tidn..,3 .0.0(J, d had ne t r ‘ i ,c ' ea take place. He hope et sa es t st rio would be e as re t a n d e y Ratigahtfuruoren. a,rtic e e t o h t ! c 4 L)r p ei ; ce r e ; that the , twat convincing arguments _ f , r ain a C r must fall by the introduction o t' oef' f" 00 10 n t o a free-trade measure. iii jar 0 32 ",,Y: y c b ry d the "—n-incluf aver $a li" gof on e sve fol were invariably complain ha d, up no r and and tv pa l they were r•ubjected, f nd that the iste 11 vevors of the distr.cts, ou . 5 /kill' t ts holAsitriarßmUerßsßwOerNeVsSuffee°riunigdnrm the Ai°ll ree' subjected to many charges. her her Il a j e"Y d 0$ (18 Mr. HUNIE would advise the advice of the ecramittge 131-' , . - . - . . - • - - - ) ti ttl t k , td l tur, (i )11 Jl, --~. t, t e II