The Sun. — London, England, 1823-06-20 00:00:00

311ohle Master of the Minn& mentioned lhe- measure of" Administration of 1800, relative to the importation of Irish' orn into English ports, he maintained, that no measure was better founded in justice than that measure. For what could, be more intolerable or unjust than that Ireland should be made to consume the woollens, the hardware, and the ma- nufactures of.'England, and not be allowed in return to ex port ber only produce, that of provisions. But what would', the measures pointed out by the same Noble Lord, viz. Grand.. Jury Presentments Bill, Courts of Justice and Education Institutions, do for the benefit of Ireland. They were told that the grants for education had been distributed impartially, with.. out reference to religious distinctions; but he denied that any sums bad been given to Catholic schools under the direction of Catholics. It' he were to be told that the State could not en conrage the rearing of Catholics as such, he should be prepar-' cal with his answer, viz. that an experience of 100 years ought 'to have taught them that the mass of the population of Ireland , -must remaus Catholics; that , they could . not be converted..— When thestrquestions were brought forward, a•ready answer 'was generally given from the other side—that the remedy.was • to be applied to the effectand not to the cause. This was the :-fellacy of their Government, the evil whiehlreland hid to con :wad against. The evils of hersituation were to be traced to no natural causes, nor did it require the penetrating genius of a Montesquieu, or the profound wisdom of a Bacon to determine from th e problem offered by the existing appear-, ance of that country,- that the Institutions had been bad for the • last 100 years. They had lately heard from high authority, -that the notion of a balance of Power in Europe was an obis°. .:fete and useless one; and for it had been substituted a sort of :balance of opinions at home. Such a policy—dissentions in its origin, it .was palpable to him, never could answer any good -end. Ireland was unfortunately distinguished from every other •,,eivilized country. She had a church which had no hold upon the people. The administration of the law was not reverenced in consequence of a deep-seated feeling that it was stered in exclusion to the mass of.the , people. He particularly alluded to the unnecessary exclusion of the Catholics from offices they were permitted to enjoy. Out of 2,540 offices, -which Catholics were competent to fill, only 100 were occu. pied by them. When the House considered that the popula tion of the respective classes of Catholics and Protestants was as one to six in favour of the former, they could not fail to conclude that some power was ,at work to shut out the fair :promotion of the Catholics. He .was confident that nothing . was more necessary for the repose -of Ireland than that this in fluence:should be rooted out. And he could not help here ex. pressing his regret that on a late occasion; in another place, an opportunity had been taken to strengthen and confirm the pre. judice to •mhich he had alluded. Nothing operated more against the tranquillity of Ireland from the:determined reve rence and adherence which the peasantry of :Ireland paid to an oath taker 4 for no matter what purpose. Here there was an opportunity of enforcing upon their minds the conviction that no oath could be sanctioned which was not:taken for the benefit of the mass of their fellow 'subjects, :which, however, had been thrown away in favour of giving 'a triumph which ment directly to confirm the people - in their erroneous and bane. tul opinion. if they did not now consent to inquiry into the state of that country, theetime would , conleavhen they must consent to it. The Earl of LIVERPOOL assured their Lordships, that•if he had consulted his personal convenience, rather than that.of their Lotdships, he should have proposed an adjournment of this discussion. He would not, 'however, sin that, but threw himself on their indulgencein case haahoutd fail to make him self' intelligible. With 'regard to the motion of the Noble Duke, lie did not think itavas one which their Lordships ought to assent to. He regretted' the calamities of Ireland, and admitted the expediency of taking measures to remove them. But the motion went far beyond this ; for it went to throw the whole weight :of those calamities upon his Majesty's Government. He would not follow the example of those who had gone into the ancient policy of the Government of Ireland.; he did not mean to defend it. But with reference to its mo dern Government, it had been justly said that no period had ever been so prolificin beneficent acts to Ireland as the period . since the commencement or his late Majesty's reign. They had been told that these werebut acts of justice; and he was disposed as fully as the Noble Lord to admit that they were so. But mast there not be circumstances attached to those Acts which deserved that they '.should be looked upon with more favourable eyes ? 'For instance, in the grants of public money that had been made, England did more for Irelaoil than she would have done for herself. Then, with respect 40 the Government of the Noble Lord at present Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, he was'willing that it should be tried by the purpose which had been held out to be the object of his policy. At the same time no one wouldeaty that Ireland was to be cured by a piece of magic, and that by a stroke of a wand disturbance was to be for ever banished. No 'man would hold out such pro. spects with the wisest system of laws ever framed. It musthe years before the fruits of Marquis Welleshty'aimproved mind nistration could be seen. The measures which bad always been held out as in contemplation of the Noble Lord were four, and, these were destined- to go a great way towards 'those evils cor rigible by law. But the misfortune of Ireland was, that agreat part of her evils were not corrigible by law. ,The measures, however, were, a new system of po m ce, which,liatured and executed, must ultimately obviate ' many inconveniences, and which involved another measure for the regulation of' the ' Ma. gistracy. Vile wont a most important object, for It went to eradicate those defects in the lower Courts having the admi nistration of law betwixt rich and poor. :The next .was the Tithes, and a new system of Distillery. Laws. -These were ;the four amendments which the Government of Ireland held out. The new policesystem had been already established in ;Many counties, and , promised great advantages, if generally carried into effect. The 'amendment in the Magistracy had been t• begun with great effect, and gave considerable satisfaction, and :the Irish Government did all they. could to mature their plans. Last year, in all the discussions, they had been told that the 4tate of the tithes and the distillery laws were the great grie wsnces of Ireland. But this year they were taunted with bring. Aug forward Imperfect measures with reference to the tithes.— With respect to the tithes, lie desired 'to .know whether a vo. /untary or compulsory commutation was desired. He wished for the former, but considered that every principle of justice e would be violated by the Letter. He was persuadedand Bads •• fled that the thing might be fairly and amicably arranged, for he ewes Kure the clergy of Ireland were willing fairly to , meet the ..tithe payers on this .question. Heovished it to be remembered • that every man who purchased an estate in Ireland, purchased but 2-10thsof that estate, and the remaining 10th did not belong to bin.' Ile eulo,gized the moderation of the Irish Clergy, who mere the most lenient exactors of rent. in conclusion, the main. tamed that the Government had made rod the pledges it had given. With respect. to the. Privileges enjoyed do iet° by the Ca. , -tholics in Ireland, he begged to state that it formed part of his -Majesty's Instructions to every Lord Lieutenant to secure to the I , - .ltornati Catholics the full enjoyment dull the privileges to 'which • they were entitled. This had been the charge to every Secretary for Ireland, and had always been most anxiously looked to by ~lW.inisters. Catholics were admitted into many of those bodies, from which they were formerly excluded. They now formed part of the Revenue Boards, and in one of them a Catholic Gentleman had been chosen ' Deputy Chairman. It had been stated that out of 2,540 officers, which Catholics were eligible by law to hold, but 108 were actually held by Roman Catholics. !The disparity was certainly groat, but then those who talked of , the Catholics of Ireland amounting to 0 millions out of a popu. laden of 7,500,000 ought to bear in mind, that if this calculation were correct, forty-nine 8-fiftieths of the property of Ireland was in the hands of the Protestants. When , this was reineen- Altered, and when it was considered that the Catholics holding but one-fiftieth part of the property of the country, must of 'necessity be unfitted by wanting education for many of the offices which the law allowed them to hold, the disparity would .not be so wonderful as It might at first seem. In-some of the ,counties of Ireland, Catholics were choien to serve as Grand -jurors, whet/ the ,tame individuals were Protestants, they • would riot be chosen. This arose from there being .a wish to ; place soma Catholics in that Situation, and there being but 'few to choose from those, were p referred for being Catholics, who would not otherwise be selected on such an occasion.— As to the charge that the law was not equally administered, he denied the charge, and maintained that,,as far as education • and other circumstances would permit, no difference was made between Catholics and Protestants. In most countries where disturbances occurred, the efforts of the disaffected were di rected against the Government, or the institutions of the country. He denied the insurrectionary attempts and the com binations in Ireland appeared to have such objects in view.— In the midst of the disturbances which occurred last year at Limerick, it had been asserted, that if the King could have appeared there, lie would have been received with every 'pos. amble demonstration of loyalty. The present combinations "were ageinst property, whether 'possessed by Protestants or by Roman Catholics. The Catholic suffered as much ...as the Protestant. The instances were not so nuroy, because, as lie bad already stated, the Catholic Proprietors were "few; but, in proportion to their numbers, they had suffered as much; and a more determined spirit of hostility bad been manifested towards the wealthy Catholic than towards the Protestant. They objected as much to the dues claimed by the Ministers of their own chuneli, as to those demanded for ,the Protestant establishment, and the general service of the 'State. The insurrection which broke out in Connaught while the Duke of Bedford was 'in Ireland, was produced by discon tent on account of the dues claimed by the Roman Catholic priests.A similar spirit now prevailed. He c ould not avoid attributing much of the evil which was the subject of complaint to the extent to which ahsenteeship was carried in Ireland. It was his opinion that. Ireland, though some evils were con. Seined of as springing' front the Union, derived more benefit than she sustained injery from that measure. It was so with :Scotland, and he knew of no reason why it should not be the same with Ireland. What he wished to do was to infuse into Ireland English notions and English feelings, so as to creAte in the different classes the same regard for the well being of each other which existed in this country. He vindicated the principle of the English Poor Laws, and without demanding their immedi ate introduction into Ireland, he thou ht they ought not to be hastily dismissed front consideration. Ile she wed shat connected rich and poor, and introduced a better system of police, whi c h was no where more to be desired than in Ireland. He opposed the motion, because he considered it to contain an untrue de scription of Ireland. If any particular grievance were pointed out as calling for inquiry he should be ready to agree to a motion for that purpose, but the proposition before the House was entirely one of generalities, and by its generality it de feated its own object, and he therefore felt called upon to vote against the motion of the Noble Duke. - The Bishop of KILDARE vindicated the parochial incum- I bents oflieland from the aspersions which had been thrown out against'them. He denied that they had been required by law to open schools at their own expense, but declared them to have greatly exerted themselves. to 'promote education in that country, and to improve the condition of the people. The Marquis of LANSDOWN explained; The Earl of CARNARVON thought if the,Noble Lord were-sincere in wishing to infuse E9glitili feelings intolreland, that no time ought to be lost in entering uponthat inquiry which was now called for. The Noble Earl wished to infuie this spirit into Ireland by promoting unioti betWeet the part:alai authorities and the people, and he had, spoken of the a d. vantages which Scotland enjoyed from tech a state of things, but he forgot that Scotland had a Church of her own in accordance with the feelings of the '.peOple, which had not been sub j ected to our Episeoptil Government. It was in a time of profound peace that their Lordships ought to en deavour to make these improvements in the ebndition of the people, which were alike essential to the present prosperity and future safety of the nation. It' would be difficult by any act of conciliation at once to, recover the lost affectionwof the pepple .of Ireland.; but, if that :House-manifested a diapciii.; tion to do them justice, and to efface -the recollection of the past, much might yet be achieved. Re should, therefore, support the motion of the Noble Duke, as he hoped a majo rity of their Lordships would, for it w as his opinion that such a decision would do more tovrordo tranquillity than all the expe dientwhitherto recon.mended. The,people oareland were op pressed. and rendered desperate, and he verily believed that such wawthe state of ,the country, that if• 20,000 men werelanded there, the existing Government would be overthrown. If such the situation of the country now, - lie pressed upon their Lord ships the consideration of the dangers which might hereafter arise, and which he called upon them to avert, by consenting before it was too late to go into that inquiry which had been asked, and which in his judgment was necessary to the,pre servation of Ireland. Their Lordships then divided, when_ the nu mber. were- Contents • - . - 43 Proxies - .- - .. 11;- 59 Not -contents - - Proxies - - . - . ;i9--105 Majority - - —46 . ;The House adjourned at a Quarterbefore Two this morning HOUSE OF COMMONS. *new writ:was ordered for the Borough of Hertford, In the room of Lord Cranborne, now Marquis of Salisbury. Mr. BIRCH presented a Petitionlrom the Manufacturers of the TOwn and County of Nottingham against the Bill for repealing the Acts respecting Combinations of Journeymen. Mr. P. ,1110(11LE 'oared a few remarks, which • were re plied to by Ili...Melt; and the Petition was ordered to be printed. • IRLE 'OF TRINIDAD. Air. MAAR YAT, seeing the Under Secretary for the Colo. nial Department in his place, begged to ask whether any steps were about to be taken to give the Isle of Trinidad the benefit of British laws. Mr. W. HORTON stated l that the Commissioners now in the West Indies had instructions, when their present labium should be brought to a conclusion, to proceed to the isle of Trinidad, to make inquiries on the subject adverted to by the Hon. Gentleman. PAUPORS. - • . .Mr. BENETT (Wilts) presented a Petition, signed by Gourley and others, complaining df 'the vractlce ofhadg-' - roamers, anti compelling them to secvein the Militia,. .g.fhe Petition was brought up and . read. it called on the House, before they determined on what should be done with Paupers, to bestow a few thoughts on the subject of p a up e ri s m. Though poor and ignorant., the Petitioners knew thatfram the Bible it appeared the Almighty had given the command, " Be fruitful and Multiply," and also " to replenish the earth end' subdue it." These commiouls, however, :it appeared to the , Petitioners, were little attended to, .as the earth Was rieithei. replenished nor subdued: understood the King of Nng land to reign over countries which exceeded England in extent ten times over many of which werapeopled.hutlw a few ,in habitants who were 'little hotter than savages. They com plained that, In the neighbottrhcood;of the Petitioners; rentS,, .dithee, :and taxes, were exacted for thnwmt,gf -- purposes,; to maintain priests, etewardit, and 'tuird:helirted 'Misters, and to establish tyranny. .They prayed theliouse to take - these things into their serious consideration, and afford relief..—? Tile PetitionY was ordered to lie on the table.. ASSESSED TAXES - COMPOSITION Mr:lf EBRIES •movetl the third reading ,. of 4* Assessed Taxes Composition Bill. Mr. HOBHOUSE had understood . the 'Clitincellorti the Exchequer to statein the earl mart of the present Session, that hir intended to take off the WindoW Tait froth ishopi on the lower range or on the basement altogether. He ,(Mr.3101)!. house) was, however, sorry to learn that this was only done with respect to windows opening .into the :main street, where they opened into courts the duty was still demanded. He wi.thed to know if this had been intendqd:? _ ' • Mr. 11.1.11IRIES apprehended the windows to which the Ilon. Gentleman-referred avere no .shop windows. If they were not shop windows but windows belonging to shop-keepers, the duty still attached, but if they were bone fide shop windows he eon. ceived them to be exempted from the Tax altogether. Who Bill,was then read a third time and passed, BARILLA DUT3 DILL. The Barilla Duties Bill went through a Committee, the Re, porta which was ordered to be read to.morrow. IRELAND. Sir J. NEWPORT gave notice, that n Wednesday he should move for Returns relative to ' -o :Parochial' and Diocesan stitools in Ireland, with a view to bting .more detailed ac. counts of them before'Parliament in the ensuing Session. The Honourable Baronet moved that the accounts of the Exports and Imports of Ireland, from 1771 to 1811, should be reprint.. POOR'S SETTLEMENT. The Poor's.Settlement Bill was read a second time, and or. &rata be committed on Wednesday. 'SLAVE TRADE. Mr. BENNErpresented a petition-from Sexham against the Slave Trade.--Ordered to be printed. DISTILLATION. Mr. BENNET presented a petition from certain Owners'aml Occupiers of Land in the . County of Northumberland, praying for the repeal of the restrictions on the distillation of the Spirits of the finest quality in this country. After a few words from Mr. CURWEIi, the petition was or— dered to be printed. PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. Mr. JAMES presented a petition, signed by 3107 inhabi tants of 'Newcastle-upon-Tyne, praying for a Reform in Par liament, for Annual Elections, Universal Suffrage, and vote by Ballot. The Hon. Gentleman stated Tit to be the opinion of the petitionerein which he concurred, that an freemen had a right to :mist in making the laws In person,'er by direct repre carnation, which they were expected to obey. He was sorry he did not see the Hon. Member for Bramber In his place, who had so often exerted his great talents in opposition to Negro Slavery. He (Mr. James) had it in his power to do something . towards emancipating:the Blacks having had the misfortunes to succeed toestates in the Westlndies.which had been purchased by his ancestors. But before he did this he must make some bargain with the Hon. G en tl eman ( t h e M em b e r f or liramber,) which should bind him to use his best efforts to abolish Slavery among the Whites. The Hon. Gentleman in that case must cease to support the Government as he had done, in such mea sures as the six Acts for instance. He then instituted a com parison between the situation of the lower classes In this country, and the Slaves in the West Indies, anti declared, all circumstances considered, If the latter were placed in the situation of the form e r, that h e t h oug h t , by - Heaven I the exchange would be against them. The English Government deserved credit for the efforts which it had made to induce Foreign Powers to abandon the Slave Trade. But he thought before they claimed liberty for a race proverbially ignorant, that they would have done well to require the Despots of the Continent to make their own countrymen free, and the Minis.. tem of this country ought to have set them the example by communicating the blessings of freemen to those who like the present Petitioners complained of the frequent suspension of the Habeas Corbus Act, of excessive taxation, and the other evils of the present system, and especially of the mischievous consequences of the wickedly called" Restriction Act of 1707," and the " Act of Confiscation," passed in 1017. Sir I. COFFIN thought the Hon. Gentleman and the refl. tioners must labour under some mental delusion. He bad never seen people more fat, more flourishing, and apparently more contented in any part of Europe or in America, than those he had met with at the place from which this Petition was pre sented. .11Ir. JAMES, in pesenting . the Petition, put part of It to. wards the Clerk, but the greater part,of it fell from the table and rolled towards toe door. Th e spEAKER--" The Hon. Gentleman will have the goodness to bring up the Petition."—(A laugh.) Mr. JAMES lifted the Petition, which was very bulky, on the tattle, and on moving that it should be printed, took occa sion to remark that the inhabitants of Newcastle, who had been represented to be so sleek and contented, to all appearance, must have been that portion of them who lived on the taxes.— The Petition was ordered to be printed. MIDDLESEX COUNTY COURT. Mr. ABERCROMBY, in the absence of his Noble Friend, the Member for Northampton, presented a Petition, signed by 9,625 freeholders, Housekeepers, and others, in the County of Middlesex, praying for the extension of the jurisdiction of the County Court. From the satisfactory manner in which the business of that Court was carried on, it was conceived that it might be desirable to enlarge its powers, so that debts to the amount of ten pounds, -or at all events to that of five might there be recovered. _ _ _ The Petition was read and ordered to be printed. CASE OF MR. BUTT. Mr. HOBHOUSE seeing the Attorney and Solicitor-Gene ral in their places, wished to call their attention to the case of an individual (Mr. Butt) whose name was button well known, but whose case, in his opinion, peculiarly demanded the most serious consideration. It would be in the recollection of the House that Mr.. Butt had brought actions against Sir N. Conant and Mr. Newman, the late keeper of Newgate, for false im ' prisonment. The Jury gave & verdict of one shilling da mages, and the proceedings were thus quashed. Th e ex p e n ce s incurred by Sir 'Nicholas Conant and Mr. Newman, in con sequence of, these actions being brought, had been paid by the Treasury. •• This, he contended, was against the law, and he would now Thew the evil consequence which thence re. stilted, as they had been painfully experienced by Mr. Butt. When that individual appeared to pay the costs, Sir Nicholas Conant and 3lr. Newman declined receiving them, as they had been" paid by Government. He then applied to My. Justice Richardson, and the case was arguedat Chambers •by Mr. Sergeant Vaughan, .but no relief was gained. Mr. Butt had gone to Lord Sidinotith, but was told that he was not entered as a debtor on the Treasury Books. He had applied to Mr. Sheriff Waitlunan, whoi e after consulting a Solicitor and a Barrister, told him that he'liettim means of relieving him. After this 3lr. Butt petitioned the two Houses of Parliament, who relieved him in the .usual , way—that was, they gave him no relief at all On the occasion of the Coronation, he had hoped to be liberated, but that even brought no relief to him. At last, both Mr. Butt's defendants and the Solicitor died. Mr. Butt then applied to young Mr. Conarit, and this was the answer he received—" Had you been actually indebted to the late Sir Nathaniel. Conant, I might have been able to serve you; but, as I the action was defended by him solely at the expence of the Treasury, it is to that office you must apply, and so I trust you will see that I cannot inter. fere." Here was direct proof that the expence was paid by the Treasury but if further proof was wanted, he could 'supply it. He could prove that the Treasury had, singularly enough, offered to let Mr. Butt take the benefit of the Insol vent Debtors' Act. A letter from Mr. Arbuthnot gave this reply to an application which Mr. Butt had made :—" With respect to the letter addressed to you by Mr. Motile and the Treasury on the first ult., I am commanded by my Lords Com inissioners of the Treasury to announce that, provided you think proper to take the benefit of the Insolvent Debtors' Act, my Lords Commissioners will offer no opposition to your doing' se .?" He wished to know what right had the Lords Commis.; sinners of the Treasury to act thus ? Such conduct he main talned was in direct violation of the-act of maintenance. If' such,a course of proceeding were sanctioned, law might be turnedinto a most fearful engine of oppression. Mr. Butt had been confined 26 months and 13 days for a debt which he had offered tri_ptl. - • The ,SOL =OA-GENERAL. denied that such offer had ' beefi made'. • • 1 1 4 L .411011.1101.1ki& begged perden, but Mr-Butt had offered twpanand he begged to ask if the Learned Gentleman, with All That modesty which initially . belonged , to ,the legal would maintain that the Treasury had a right.. by payi ng cost ; fin stitlk 4 iiiie, inernaike the creditor of an individinti?-:-. Whether.Nr. AlufrAsid.offered to pay oz: not, dbl t)oit alter the fact that ih'4' Treasury hail l piiid the charges of the suit of an in. H 0 Ontendell tbst MOnlitroll**CV had been comp.mined ; that an individual had been grossly injured, and that it became the ..duty that .ifouse, efeadually 4o guard , against the recurrence of any thing of the kind, ! He asserted that pay. mem , had beett Offered: r. 'Be ti'hatd'tendered'a Coluirildaff bond for 4004. wief4 be said tht. was bad end of no value 'now, but it w its Shit's() it the' peri Ito which lie referred.- Fie offerati.to,pr Air. praokof what her..lankedvanced in the hand *Thing of r. Arbuth not , Mr. Maule, and Mr. Conant, and coneludaijil'lleseuting a petition from, 311 , :, Butt, setting forth the circumstances of the c ame , and pr aying the House to take such steps , itis l they shoUld. deem' necessary to prevent a' recurrence of tile evil. .- 'l'he'titA:lt n'etIf:GENER AL complained of the conduct of the Hon. Gentleman l in laripging this i eubject forward, with , out giving notice dins : intention to do so on that occasion.-... .()n a ft*Peg 'who applied to a Learned Gentleman op. b - posite to coninienicate to the lion. Member for NVestminst er is wish :to o present when ! th e petition was presented. For the last week he had 'attended there day after day, with the eorreSpinutenee Whidi Mr. Butt had had with the Treastirk. Now it , accidentally l!SPPe9fil !itt, it mile not in his possession, or he'coidit have W tHeiatistliCtiOrt otthe House, and as he thought, toAlie s atisflieligiliffXhe liOn. Gentleman himself, that the greatest moderatibn had been used towards Mr. Butt, and .that ..this.vras adthittol hylMri Butt himself. He would ihorily,state the case; Alt. Bout after being convicted in the Court of Xing's Bentli f ' hid 'libelled' on Bird EllenbOrough, and deaciibedhim large posting* bine which had been snick up in the most nubile part* of the metro p olis;• -1 to h ave imposeu a heavy.fine :him (Mr. Ilutt i ) money in l ocket. A his Orin p Ith A- view of putting the 1 11 . ,,,i f ir libel had been sent fortis by Mr. ,Butt on the late Lor d Londonderry.: In conseq uence Of this 3lr. Butt had be e n apprehended by order. of t he Se cretary of State, and taken before Sir Nathaniel Rail, being refused, he was commi.e., sa,e to Newgate In con. sequence of 'this -it was that 14 r. 'Butt had th o . ht ug pro per to „brin kith action,* against Sir N at h an i el Conant and .Mr. Neiman. e cases came . . on, and after being most elabo rately:argued verdicts were R.ven again s t Mr. Butt. After this, 3lr.Butt could not pay the coats, was it just to leave Sir N. Conant and Mr. Newman to pay out of their salaries the expencee incurred in defending actions brought against them in consequence of their acting on the orders of a Secre tary of , State ? If the Treasury paid ouch charges be would ask was , th e r e a ny thin g in its doi ng g o t h at was irregular or illillePerf As to the offer , of payment which had been men tioned,' lie was not aware that any such offer had ever been insole. , Ilre.Butthad always pleaded inability to pay. He had acknowledged having been treated with great kindness by the Treasury. Was intiniated to him that he might take the benefit of the Insolvent Debt ors ' A ct , h e s tated his suchproperty to be i n Situation that he could not avail him self of 'the offer. Subsequently he had been allowed to go at large by the Lord's of the Truants , . Under all the circum stances, he insisted that . Mr. Butt had no just ground of corn. plaint, anti thought lie madethe case clearly out, so that the House would . and he almost hoped the lion. Gentleman himself would, that there were no grounds for complaining of the conduct of the Treasury. Mr. DENMAN did not approve of the conduct of the Trea sury in putting itself in the. situation of a creditor to an indi vidual. Mr. 110B110LTSE said the edge of the case had not been taken oft' by what bad fallenisom the llon..and Learned Gen tleman., lie had indeed made the case clear, for he had made it clear, that a breach of the law had taken place. He had nothing to do with any - civillatters which Mr. Butt might have written to the Treasury,- while ehelact was in proof that the public money was adv*nced to.aower the expenses of individual law-suits. The ATTORNEY -GENERAL said Mr. Butt hail sent forth two most abominable libels on Lord Ellenborough and Lord Londonderry. F or t h ese h e h a d b ee n ,apprehended and committed to Newgate ; and, in consequence of this, he had brought actions against the Magistrate who committed, and the jailer who detained him, 'rite case had been argued in the Court of Common Pleas, and there the Judges not being so competent to expound ie law as the lion. Member for West minster, had decided that Sir Nathaniel Conant and Mr. New man were justified. Mr. Bntt failed in both cases, and was ordered to pay costa. This he was unable to do; and Sir Nathaniel Conant and Mr. Newman had thus a right to look to the Tre asur y f or re i mbursement. H e believed the Hon. Gentleman to be misinformed when he stated payment to have been offered. Mr. Butt always. declared it was not in his power to pay. If he tended a Colombian bond, which was ob. jected to, why did he not sell it in the market, and offer the money. Had the money been refused by the parties, Mr. Butt would have had an immediate remedy . on application to the ' to pay, Court. Ile had on l y to d o this , and he might have obtained his liberty, but as h e was unable the whole essence had fallen on the Treasury. He for, one, s aw nothing Meg* in the course which had b een pursued,' and he was sure that there was nothing unjust or oppressive in the proceedings. Mr. HOB/LOUSE said, he understood the remark which the Attorney-General had made on his law, but contended that his opinion was borne out by that of Lord Camden. The opinion of a Law Officer of the Crown, in a case where the liberty of the subject wits concerned, he held to be not worth that—. (Here the Honourable Gentleman snapped his fingers)—and never had been worth that._( Repeating the action.)—The two Hon. and Learned Gentlemen opposite had not dared to say that the course which had been - pursued was legal, and he must hog to say that he felt pretty well satisfied that lie was right, whenever he found himself opposed to lam officers of the Crown ; not that he was arrogant enough to think that his opi nion must be right, but because he considered it almost a mat ter of °course that theirs must be wrong.—(A laugh.)—When Mr. Butt had tendered the Colombian Bowl, Sir N. Conant told him that he could not receive the money at all. He again remarked on the Attorney-General's polite notice of his law, which, however, he contended, was as well entided to the at tention of the House as the opinion of a Lair Officer of the Crown. The principle which the Learned Gentlemen oppo site had contended for was that which hal been 'maintained against Lord Camden, tie Mr. Justice Park had done when speaking on the subject of Lord Sidmouth's Circulars. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL had said nothing against the Hon. Gentleman's law as compared with . his own, but as compared with that which had been held . t o b e law by the. Court of Common Pleas. Notwithstanding he stood in the situation of a law officer of the Crown, he was not ashamed of defending the decisions of that Court, even though acting such a part should subject him to the censure of the lion. Member for Westminster. Mr. DENMAN considered the case of Mr. Butt to have been one of considerable hardship. - The petition was read and ordered to be printed. CATHOLICS O!' IRELAND. _ _ Mr. BROUGHAM enquired if his Hon. Friend, the Mem ber tbr Aberdeen would postpone his motion w hich stood for Thursday. fie (Mr. Brou gham) had given notice, that he would bring forward the petition which he had to present on Wednesday, and intended then to offer the motion which he had to make on it. But finding it WAS unusual for the motion to be made on the same day on which the petition was pre sented, he proposed submiting it to the House on Thursday, if his Hon./Friend would consent to this arrangement. Mr. HUME consented to give way, and postponed his motion. COUNTY COURT. Mr. LENNARD called the attention of tne House to the County Court of Middlesex. He went into a description of the business of the Court, and of the expence which it had oc casionecil.and concluded by moving--" That a Select Commit. tee be appointed, to take into consideration the returns made to this House on. the 24th of January, 1821, from the County Court of the County of Middlesex, and to report to the House whether the fees there taken may not be diminished, and whether it is not ekpedient that the County Court should sit oftener than once in each week in the Hundred of Ossulton, and to increase the number of Sittings in the other Hundred where the Court now sits." Mr. CURWEN opposed the motion as :being unnecessary, and said that if there were no other ottiections, the appoint ment of a Committee at this late veriod of the Session would be useless. Mr. 0. BENNET said the,question was, whether the Court could not be rendered more advantageous to the public ; and for the purpose of that inquiry he could not see why a Commit tee should be refused. Me thought the salaries of the officers too great t and without meaning any censure to them, he should support the motion. The House then divided, When there appeared— For the motion - . . 18 Against it . . . 44 Majority . - . . —213 NAVAL PROMOTIONS. On ouvre.admission to the Gallery we found Mr. HIII‘IE addressing the House in terms of eulogy upon the expldits and character of the naval service. In what he meant to say, he intended no offence to any naval officer, be ; cause he respected the service too much to do so; but since the peace he considered that the Lords of the Admiralty had neglected the services of old meritorious officers, anti placed their juniors, who were inexperienced and incapable, over their. heads. . Nothing could be more grating to the feelings of a soldier or sailor than to be commanded by those who had served under their orders. If promotions were to be made, and the service kept !up, the people of this country had a right to have.those officers appointed who might be found efficient in the time of need when it should arrive. He should shew that this attended to. He had not been done and he should be much surprised if it should be proved outhe Other side that his statements and views were erroneous. He complained that the recommendations of the 'Finance Conamittee , of 1817, with regard to the reductions of naval superannuatiOns and officers on half-pay, had not been shelving . a redu be 4,888.' by th e tahie)plo'innpternrsenotn,ot.te r (' the number of naval officers in 1816 to TliCCommittee .anticipated a reduction of five per cent, her annum, which In seven years would have reduced the tnutqlier one third. But it appeared there were now 5,558, 310 only. This was to be accounted for the ilt .t t a n is i l i r e :1: 1 11 11 : 1 m l s w h a e s w n ed ot th or a re t th in er di e vit i l l u ad al been who 965 steps. or promotions singe.the peace. lie believed that in had not , deserved the reward by length of aervice. But he com plained of the number of t h e ot h er promotions and of their having b een fill e d b y • offi cers wh o se services had not entitled them, while others of long standing had been looked &ver.— He contended th a t an im proper intluence was exercised, in the manner In which th ese p romot i ons were made by the'Adrui reit,. The Admiralty had a n . unlimited power of prom ot i on which ought to be restricted. , In the Army th ere cou ld on l y b e as many officers appointed as would fill u p a b atta li on; b ut in the Navy, us he had said before, the power of appointing was unlimited. The consequence was, that, from calcula tions he had made, th e num b er of officers now upon the list was fargreater than would be n ecessar y f or every vesse l i n the possession of the country that could swim or not. In corn plaining,of rthe manner in which promotions had been made, he stated that there had been one. hundred and twelve Post ; Captains appointed, and he found that forty of them had been posted from Lieutenants over the heads of a great number of old and meritorious officers. He acknowledged the facility with which the Admiralty had g i ve n hi m th e necessar y informa., tion for his motion, and expressed his intention of bringing it forward as fairly ail possible, without making it a party Tics tion. Be believed, indeed, that he should meet more-opposi tion on his own side of the House, than from Hon. Gentlemen opposite. The lion. Member then named several officers who had been posted over their superiors In standing since the peace. Ile particularly remarked upon the cases or Lord Henry Fre derick Thynne, and the Hon. Frederick Spencer. The former he stated to have been posted over 3,580 lieutenants, and 67.5 eenimandere ; and that almost without having set his foot on board ship. He had served four years, and a great part of that time was in a guard ship, so that he might be said to have scarce. ly been afloat. Hewes however appointed to a ship which was not yet built, but was upon the stocks at Madras. The Hon. Frederick Spencer was promoted over the heads of 3,642 lieutenants after the peace ; and, in 1822, he was posted over the heads of 750 Commanders. These he considered to be very strong cases, and he wished them to be impressed strongly upon the House. Lord Henri Frederick Thynne was two years.and five months at sea, and then made Post-Captain, to command old and meritorious o ffi cers. The Hon. Frederick Spencer, it appeared, was appointed at sea, according to the convenient method of invaliding; and he found that there were now two Lieutenants under him, who were his officers when he was a boy. lie mentioned several other names of officers who had been advanced these three steps since the peace. Among them he found the name of Hope Johnson three times; and When he saw throe sons of a Lord of the Admiralty , so promoted, it was impossible to say that promotion did not depend upon favour and influence.. After going through the appointments of Lieu. tenants and Commanders since the Peace, and contending that the same disregard of seniority and service had been there observed, he came to the subject of employments.— At such times as the Coronation he should have no objection to triployments being given, provided there was something like an attention to the claims of officers by seniority, so that they should be taken by seniority or nearly so. And at the time applications were made to the Admiralty, and assurances were given that the senior officers of merit would be employed. But when the time came it was found that what the Lords of the Admiralty meant by seniority was seniorit• of standing since the peace. There were tifty-aeven Commariders then ap pointed, and how many old officers would it be thought were amongst them ? At least half would be thought a reasonable proportion. But the number amounted only to five. There were six employed who were made during the war, and the other fOrty-six were all young officers made since 1814. Ile thought be had now stated enough to make out his case, He wished, however, to make a few observations upon the hard. ship of the situation in which Midshipmen were' placed by the present regulations. Ile found that in one ship there w ere t en Midshipmen whose united years of service amounted to 154. In another ship 'refound that the same number had served under sixty years. There was oneindividual, T. Jones, in the ship he firit alluded to, who had served as Midshipman for fifteen years, without getting an appointment. He had been informed that day that he was going out with Sir George Eyre to South America. He had obtained the history of these ten unfortu. nate men, for such he must call them, and he found them dis. tinguished for their services and good conduct. There was one who had been at Algiers, and distinguished himself in se veral actions in the late war, but who still remained unrewarded, anti was likely to do so to the day of his death. The Hon. Member then read a list containing several names of Midship men who had been made at home as soon as their time was ex pired. Mr. Seymour was amongst these, and it was said that he was one of three promoted for attending the King to Wm. burgh, but the fact was that he was not there at all. The same was the case with Lieutenants. He found that in the Blossom, there were now Lieutenants of seventeen, fifteen, fourteen, and thirteen years standing. In the Royal Marines the regu lations were different, and there were no such complaints in that service. On the lit of January, 1816, there were 11,949 Officers in the Royal Marines, and in January, 1023, the num her was increased m 13,494 ; an di during that time there had only been 37 steps; whereas in the Naval service, with a smaller number of Officers, the number of steps was 1960. He would aslc,"how could such a difference exist in fair and equal justice ? Thz reason was, that there were no Marines in that House, and that they possessed no Borough influence. Both these services were administered by the same Board, and the diffe rence between them was, that one was managed by influence and favour. The Admiralty themselves had pointed out what ought to be done as a remedy for the evil. On the 4th July, 1805, an Order in Council was issued, which ordered, that in order to prevent the increase of the number of Pursers in his Majesty's Navy, no Purser should be appointed till the num ber was reduced to correspond with the number of ships in the service, and that the numb er of P ursers s h ou ld never aga i n be increased beyond that proportion. He would say, let the same order be extended to all Officers, and then a just ground of complaint and discontent in the service would be removed. The Hon. Alember concluded by moving the following Reso lutions : " That it appears by returns to this House, that there were 3,91)4 Lieutenants, 813 Commanders, and 851 Post Captains, on the list of the Royal Navy, in January 1816; and that not withstanding so great a number of officers on the list, there has been, between Ist January, 1816, and the Bth January, 1823, an additional number of 860 promotions, exclusive of. Post- Captains to be Admirals, viz. 513 Xidshipmen to be Lieu tenants; 222 Lieutenants, to be Commanders; 125 Com manders, to be Post-Captains; and that although. peace has existed seven years, there were, on the Bth January, 1823, 3.720 Lieutenants, 1114 Commanders, anti 829 Post-C'aptains on the list of the Royal Navy —a number more than sufficient to officer a fleet of twice the number of ships of every. description in the British Nary, should all be at sea at the same time. " That there are 814 commanders on the list of the Royal Navy, and 57 of them now on full pay, of whom only 7 were promoted during the last ten years of active warfare (from 1802 to 1813), and 50 who have been promoted since June, 1814, the termination of the war in Europe. " That many of the promotions have been made in the royal navy, without due regard either to the length of service, to the merit of the midshipmen and officers, or to tie efficiency and advantage of the navy; and that the expence of the half-pay of the officers of the navy, necessarily great, after a long war, has been thereby greatly and unnecessarily increased to the country. " That there were 950 persons on the list of the Royal Navy in January, 1816, and 747 in January, 1823, shewing a decrease of 203 in the seven years, exclusive of 16 persons added to the list in that time. " That there were 6,949 officers and men in the corps of. royal marines in January, 1816, and 8,494 in January, 1823, being an increase of the corps of 1,545 in seven years; but there were only 5 first commissions granted, and 32 promotions to higher rank in that period. That an humble address be presented to his Majesty, that he will be graciously pleased to direct an inquiry to be made into the manner in which the Right Honourable the Lords of the Admiralty have exercised their power, both as regards the placing on full pay those officers already on the list, and the promotion of the several officers to higher rank in the navy since the peace in 11115." Sir G. COCKBURN begged to thank the Hon. Member for expressing himself a friend to the Navy, but he assured bins that he could do nothing that would destroy it so soon as to adopt the principle that promotion' was to depend upon senio rity.—(hear, hear !)--.The Hon. Member had made use of the high sounding numbers of the o ffi cers in the servi ce , b ut t h at did not serve his argument when compared with the small number of abuses he had brought forward. He bad said, that if he (Sir G. C.) would grant to him that interest was used in the service, _he had obtained all he asked. That admission h e was prepared to make to a certain extent. And he contended that it was most desirable for the good of the service to have the sons of Noblemen and distinguished individuals in the navy ; they give it respectability, represented it in that House, and added to its character in society , ; and it was not to be expected that they should undergo all the hardships of info. , • nor service, which was indured by those who served in the pro feesion for their bread.--(pear, hear !)—He was sure that those who did so were so satisfied with the rewards bestowed by the existing regulations.—(Hear, bear!)—He could not be expected to follow the Hon. Member, at the moment, through all the cases he had stated, but that of ord H. F. Thynne he happened by. chance to be acquainted with. The name of that officer stood at the bottom of a list of seven, who were promoted upon,a. particular occasion, as being the seven oldest commanders upon the different stations. With regard to the service of that officer, it was well known that the King's son must go through six years of active service before he could be made; and that, he thought, entitled an. officer to an appointment, who had given up the comforts of atiluencs and rank, if it could be made with justice and propriety. But this officer had also served in the Mediterranean, end afterwards in the ACP tive, with such credit to himself, that Lord William Gordon came to the Admiralty and reported to him the meritorious conduct of this young officer as being entitled to reward ; and he was proud to say that he had it—(Cheers.)---and this was what the Hon. Member called never having set foot on board excepting merles, to t to South A • afterwards A ten - gust brig ordered eo ou t there, was no one to command her, when this young officer a few years' se in a guard ship. There was d lio to n. a .ll s l i e i m ip ber complained that he which was not built. But the Admiralty knew that it would be built when he, t. With regard to junior officers passing over the arr i ve d at Madras, and by that arrangement they saved an appoint e T e their seniors, it so happened that his junior Lieute sh°ohuinldte'li mint had been placed over the head of this young Nobleman, e a d ve t' te d e o n so Proil l o i te e w oo -served under bins without a word of complaint.—(Hear, h e a t , bear')—The Hon. Member had stated that influence in that House was a ground of advancement in the service. Now upon looking at the list of the seven Commanders who were promoted. It would bo seen that the one immediately above , Lord H. Thynne was the Hon. F. Spencer, who belonged to an opposition family.— . (Hear.!)—ln the Coronation promotions, all , were selected from Midshipmen who had passer! before 1813. He did not mean to say, that there were none who were pro nioted with reference to their birth ; but the instances were very few. On occasion of the Coronation many promotions bad taken place in the army.; and it was not improper that some should take place in the navy. Even now he was happy • to say that many officers were daily adducing claims which 4 ` was smporsaible to resist.—.(Hear, hear !)—Th e coast blockade; . the attacks on pirates, and the discoumgement of the Slave Trade, all brought forward claims on the service. The name of Hope had beets alluded to; but no one of the promotions of that name had takes place in consequence of the influence of Admiral Hope. The promotion as to the name of Coffin had taken place on the recommendation of an old officer, and if any Hon. Member found fault with this, he could only say that'he did not envy , that Honourable Member his feelings. The Honourable Member for Aberdeen had very unfairly spoken of the Invalid Service. No officer was allowed to be invalided withcut medical examination at the Admiralty ; and if any Captain improperly recommended an officer to be in that Africa and the West Indies were particularly it:thee:thy arid valided be was liable to be cashiered. But the H ouse we ll k neir he was sure they would not suffer the officers to remain and die upon their stations.--(Hear, hear, hear I)—Capt a in G am . bier, who was also alluded to, bad died three days after he had been invalided. The Hon. Member was very partial to counting the number of persons who bad leaped over the heads of others; but this must be the case in every promotion._... With regard to the Marines, they were regulated by the Hon. Member's favourite maxim, and advanced by seniority. On the whole, he confidently declared that the Adeniralty had done their duty, and that the majority of the promotions were the result of actual and meritorious services. He should move a direct negative on the main Resolution, anti the preview( question on the others, which related to mere matters of feet. Admiral Sir JOHN BERESFORD said, it was witl.'n his own knowledge that many promotions had taken pine i i fa. your of those who were opposed to Ministers. Admiral COFFIN said that, so far from the prontotione being too quick, he had known -midshipmen who hid served 18 years without being promoted. If men were kept unpro. Imoted until they had arrived at his time of life, they would be good for nothing. lie himself, if he were now sent .to sea, Should fall about like an old three-legged stool.—(A laugh.) Mr. F. PA LME It spoke in favour of the Motion. Captain GORDON said, that many Midshipmen had served double the dine prescribed by the rules of the service without being promoted, and were not allowed half-pay. He thought this deserved the consideration of the House. He had nothing to observe on the promotions, but he trusted the house would not check what little aspiration remained in the Navy. Mr. BENNET thought that length of service should be the principal circumstance to regulate the promotions. lie did not think that birth should enter into the question. There could be no doubt that many would be found to bear testi mony to the excellence of the present system at the expence of the past. He had no doubt that those of the present day found . fault with the Admiral who bad commanded at the Hague; and that he, in his turn, would have found fault with the Comman der who had opposed the Spanish Armada. He did not say, however, that the Admiralty had not succeeded in making out any case ; but he repeated his disapprobation of the system of allowing birth to interfere with the question of promotion. Mr. Secretary CANNING observed that something new was to be learned every day ; and they had just heard • from the Hon. Member that (contrary to his, Mr. Canning's, impres sions) men were apt to undervalue the actions of the dead, wad to enhance those of the living. Those ' who had heard the opening of the - Hon. Member for Aberdeen, which he (Mr. C.) admitted wawa very temperate one, and the answer given to it by his H on . an d G a ll ant F r i end beh i n d hi m , co uld'not but . be satisfied that the c ase o f t h e lion. Member for Aberdeen, had received a complete and satisfactory answer. No doubt it- would be too much to say that his Gallant Friend had met every specific and individual instance referred to by the Hon. Member, but he had met the greater proportion of them. and that too on the moment—a circumstance from which the House c 41 ,