The Sun. — London, England, 1852-02-14 00:00:00

THE SUN, IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. any enactment which might be Nosed to carry out that view. He trusted that the Bill would not be sent down to the other House without having the obnoxious clause struck out. HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 13. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woo, sack at Five e'cleck. COUNTY COURTS EXTENSION. Lord BEAUMONT presented a petition from the solicitors of York praying for an extension of the County Courts Act. IMPORTATION OF ARMS AND GUNPOWDER INTO THE CAPE COLONY. The Bari of MALMBSBURT moved for the re terns of all arms and gunpowder imported into the colony of the Cape of Good Hope, and for copies of all ordinances of the Governor of the colony on the subject. Since he h id first mentioned this subject he had learned that a considerable trade had been going on many years in arms and gunpowder between the Cape colony and the Years. To this trade he thought might be fairly attributed the failure of her Majesty's arms in the war with the Kafirs. It appeared that the trade was carried on through Natal and a port further north belonging to the Portuguese. The Secretary of State for the Co lonies had first learned this from the report of Commis sary-General Miller, and the Noble Earl had imme diately dispatched ( a c esimunication to the Governor, which did him great credit. The Noble Earl was not the only public man who was ignorant ot the fact—he was only one out of a hundred who did not know, and though, as the head of the department, be was respell sihle, the great blame must rest on his subordinate officers for not acquainting him with the fact. There was a law in the colony certainly against this trading, but it did not seem to have ever been put in force. He would not trouble their Lordships with quotations from the report which bad been laid on the table on the subject of the. Kafir war ; but it was quite evident that this trade had been going on for many years, and that the Nuble Earl had been until very lately entirely ignorant of it ; he wished, therefore, to know what means the Noble Earl proposed to take to stop the trade. It was evident that the steamer which the Noble Earl had mentioned as baying been sent to blockade the coast would not be sufficient for that purpose ; and he would suggest that, since the slave trade had been to a great degree repressed, some of the 16 vessels of the slave trade squadron should be sent down for the purpose. Earl GREY said it was a notorious fact that a trade in gunpowder had for many years been carried on with the Kafirs. It was no fault of the law, which was suffi ciently severe; and when the subject had been submitted to the Executive Council in 1842, that Council had not thought it either necessarry or possible to add to their stringency, but attributed the whole difficulty of stopping the traffic to the nature of the country and the scattered populatein on the frontier. All the powder which had reached the Kafirs was smuggled through our own porta after it was landed there, and not before; and it was ut terly impossible to find any coast where smuggling would be so impossible.—(Hear.) He believed it was necessary that every farmer on the frontier should be supplied with powder for himself and his servants, to be used in their defence against man and beast. And when that was the case, did the Noble Earl suppose it pos sible that when an ox could be obtained in exchange for a pound weight of gunpowder, which only cost Bd., that the trade could be entirely pat a stop to? Such a suppo sition would be most puerile. The Noble Earl asked whether means hart been taken to guard the coasts. Now, he had conversed with Commissary Miller on this point, and that gentleman said he did not think that a pound of gunpowder bad got into the possession of the Kafirs which had not been landed openly at our own ports. There had been some, no doubt, introduced through • the Portuguese settlement in Algoa Bay, but not to any great extent ; and the main supply of the Kafiri had no doubt been obtained from Cape Tewn. With regard to the facility of landing on the coast, he was informed that there was no coast in the world where it was so utterly impossible to carry on an illi cit trade. Mr. Miller read aentioned one or two points where a landing could be effected ; but there the diffi culty was so great that a considerable number of persons had lost their lives in attempting to land; and he believed that except at one or two places it was im possible that gunpowder could be landed. Oa the west aoast there wkre only one or two places where vessels could land cargoes, and those must be small vessels, which would take their cargoes from Cape Town, and not vessels which would trade from Europe. He was assured, however, that that was not the direction in which the danger lay; the real difficulty was to prevent the powder which it was necessary to import into the colony from finding its way into the hands of persons who would sell it to the Kafirs; and if their Lordships would look at the ordinance lately passed on this subject at the Cape, they would see that it was entirely directed to that end. Orders had been Limed, increasing the severity with which restrictions would be applied to that traffic, and which he hoped would be effectual. He had no objection to the returns moved tor, but sug gested an alteration in their form, applying to the quan tity of gunpowder and arms exported from this country to the Cape, rather than the importation into that colony. Lord MON ['EAGLE thought there was no doubt now as to the origin of the trade; it was clear that it had, its origin in Cape Town, and was carried along the fron tier, the powder being sold by British merchants for the deetruction of their fellow colonists. The moment they allowed the traders to cross the frontier, it was impos sible to prevent a trade in that which would be a most profitable speculation. Major Anderson and Sir George Napier had, in their evidence before the committee, ex pressed their opinion that, until a stop was put to these itinerant traders in gunpowder, nothing effectual would be done towards a di.continuance of the trade. Af:er a few words frum the Earl of MALMESBURY in reply, Earl GREY said that the collector of the customs at Cape Town hid informed aim teat almost every pound of powder which pas,ed into the colony went thrcueh the Custom-house. He repotted that he had no objec tion to tee returns moved for us soon as they could be obtained. l'hc Earl cf ELLENBOROUGH thought the returns sought for cnght to be obtaiced at once. After a few words from Earl GREY, the motion was agreed to. COUNTY COURTS EXTENSION BILL Lord BROUGHAM, in moving the second readicg of this Bill, said he bad introduced a similar Bill into their Lordship.' house last session. Tnat Bill, after it bad passed the Upper House, had been sent down to the H use of Commons, and toe alterations which bad been there made were principally with regard to the mole in which the objects of the Bill were to be carried out, and were not of a substantial character. There was, however, one material alteration which the House of Commons had introduced into the Bill, and that was that they had re-inserted the 24th clause, which their Lordships had struck out. Considerable difference of opinion had existed in their Lordships' House with re• speet to that clause, but eventually it had been struck out. The effect of the obtuse was to repeal a pro vision in the County Courts Act, which pro hibited the counsel who practised in these courts from taking briefs from the suitors themselves, and required that they should be instructed by an at• torney. He had suggested to their Lordships that pro bably, in the Comity Courts, the same practice prevailed as in the sure leer courts. v.z., that counsel were not in the habit ot taking briefs trout the clients themselves, hut fro m attorneys. ilee however thought that it was d esirable that au op tion should be given upon the matter, and ther e f ore it w as that he had inserted the particular clause in the Bill With respf ct to the superior courts, there wasprohibited uneooibflezible stature law or cbmrrnh, clients common law which themselves, b 1:1•4l from fa—ng b r i e fs fo but they had always been prevented from doing . ° b y xlble usa ge or custom w hich was called the etiquette of the bar. In the superior courts, generally speakine no counsel took a brief in a cause unless he bad been instrue(teudorbdy We attorney—a practice which in most cases he (L ord aanießfrougham) thought that approved of; but he superior reeioni upon that point which existed in the to the County Courts without might be extended ithout any f ear o f i tg being abused , Hi s objects n to would prevent counsel le Ea passing a hew which Court directly from a client was , a brief in a County might arise when the ordinary should be departed rule that ' circumstances from. The Bill which had passed their m t h Lordships'had House set last sess i on upon this subjee,, an, d ipaghhie. appear from the down to the House of Comm - ons titimbir o f amendments which that House had made to d h h o e wever, have undergone considerable alterat i on. t was not the case, for the other House a, the substantial port ions of the ysbeentha war ul a eie Lord CAMPBELL The Noble re P,o rd to concluded by mo v i h e' tim e , r that the Bill be read a second hHaed consideredalwa friend to the County acid Courts.h e establishment hid tended most materially to im prove the admi n i stra tion of justice in this country. R e ap proved generally of the Bill which his Noble and Learned Friend had brought in, and be would now come to the important part of the Bill, namely, the clause to which his Noble and Learned Friend bad alluded. It had re ference to a subject upon which the honour of hi s (Lord Campbell's) profession materially dependee, an d what was of far more imnortance, a pure anministra lion of justice. The distinction between the functions and duties of an attorney and a barrister had prevailed from time immemorial—a distinction which be thought ought to be preserved. It had been instituted, not by the law, it was true, but by the usage of the profession to which he had the honour to belong. When the County Courts were established, it was felt that unless some po sitive enactment upon this subject were introduced great abuses would arise. With regard to the superior courts at Westminster, they were under such a system of dis cipline and superintendence, that the professional usage upon the point could he upheld and enforced without any legal enactment. It was foreseen, however, that in the County Courts that superintendence could not exist, and the ligisia;ere had consequently thought it neces sary to pass a law so the effect teat a barrister shonld not appear in a case in a Giant y Court unless instructed by an attorney. If the usage which prevailed upon this matte r were allowed to cease to ex i s t, th e oiff erence be- PETTrIONS. tt , a eerrintesse and an attorney would be done awe etition from with. Thera-aY Mr. LOCH presented al' the metro I of btrristers who wer e in the habit of 2,, iin - was a then- 'el praying for an alteration of tbe duty on post-horses. warts ; ahem peblic-houses, and fincfin g out Mr. Gleoe+A N . presentee a petition from Dublin the. lee- mg in erder to stir Zip a desire amongst against any end t to the college of Nlaynoetn •wwen .. r or der's - a brief. Sueh ' i I -tw, so tnar, they might obtain • 2 his petition, on the motion of t he Hon. Me mber, was a belonged, ca e lk s degreited the order to which they read at the tbl • a v.) to the 24th chew:rictus ''ojeetion Which h entertained , F. - rfiEsILiER presented a petition against the Bill was, that it w in nis Noble and Learned Friends peat-horse duty. evil to which he Quid have a tendency to increase the EDUCATION IN SCOTLAND. referred the due adminietratio • It was highly necessary, fur I Mr. F. MA 0,- -`.,ll.EINZLEnotice that on Monday gave a et ' • employ an attorney %e h, eh tustice, that a client should next 13e would ash Lord J. Russell whether it was his Olt c lases should he, as th e retain a barrister, and intention to introduce any B il l the subject of educa on hand,: of pereees over we e ey were now, placed in the tion in Scotland , a jurisdiction, and if it were n re tee courts could exercise EXPULbION OF BRITIefI SUBJECTS FROM likely to be defrauded. He not so suitors would be Atid rRIA, which existed in tie County°objcd to a practice Mr. ANSTEY asked the First Lord of the Treasury acting as the ad v, i n a , e warts of one attorney 11 question on the subject of te fo- e recent expulsion of cer- j If tnere were a necessity for e " itc, another attorney to Scottish clergymen from the Austrian territories • as well as an attorney, lee that to have au advocate by order of fence -e-wartzenber and, as it is sad IN (Lord Campbell) would mat t° be a barrister, alleged, in contravention o f the . , willingly support j the Austrian empire, is well 58 f • municipal laws of ° I nternational righti. I Lord_CRANWORTH said he did not e'se to invite any discussion upon the clauses of the Bill, but should reserve his opinion upon them until it went into Com mittee. He would, however, say that his opinion upon the 24th claus e agree d ;with that of his Noble and Learned Friend who had just sat down. He would direct his observations to the whole purpose of the Bill. It had two distinct objects. the first being to extend the jurisdiction of the County Courts in certain common law cases; and, secondly, to give them the power to carry out the orders and decrees of the Court of Chancery, and to discharge the functions now performed by Masters in Chancery. He thought that both those ob jects were of a useful tendency; but, withiregard to that part of the Bill which had reference to the Court of Chancery, he would suggest to his Noble and Learned Friend whether it would not be better to strike that portion out of the present Bill, so that it might be made the subject of a separate Bill hereafter if it should be come necessary. His reason for making the suggestion was, that there was now a measure before the House of Commons which, perhaps, besides dealing with the other difficulties connected with the Court of Chancery, might possibly contain provisions to carry out the object which his Noble and Learned Friend sought to do by the Bill now under diecussior. It was therefore possible that his Noble and Learned Friend's Bill, as it now stood, might in some way crime is collision with the Chancery Reform Bill. He did not mean to oppose the sec o nd reading of the Bill now before the Reuse, but merely threw out a suggestion to his Noble and Learned Friend. If the Chancery Reform Bill did not touch the question which the present Bill dealt with, then the Noble and Learned Lord could introduce a separate Bill to effect the object which he had in view. Lord BROUGHA VI said the point to which his Noble and Learned Friend had drawn his attention bad certainly come under his consideration. It was possible that the Chancery Reform Bill might contain some pro visions upon the subject which his Bill dealt as regarded the Court of Chancery. He believed, however, that the Chancery Reform Bill would not directly deal with the subject to which a part of his Bill had reference, viz., conferring upon the County Courts the power of dis charging the functions now performed by Masters in Chancery, and therefore he did not deem it desirable to adopt the suggestion of his Noble and Learned Friend who had last addressed their Lordships. The Chancery Reform Bill was one which had been looked for with great anxiety, an anxiety in which he largely partici pated. With respect to the remarks which had fallen from his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Campbell) upon the impropriety of barristers receiving briefs in any courts except through an attorney, he would observe that such a practice had often been adopted in the country courts of bankruptcy, and no evil had resulted from it. He would not now enter into the question whether it was desirable to have an inflexible law upon the subject. or a flexible usage. There were cases in which the flexible usuage might protect a barrister from the effects of a combination which attorneys might have against him, if he did anything to excite their dispirit'. sure. He remembered a case in which a combination had been formed against a barrister by.the other branch of the profession : that barrister was a Member of the House of Commons, and the cause of the displeasure of the attorneys was, that he had felt it his duty to express his opinion unreservedly in the House upon a matter which affecteethem. The result was, that a printed circular was sent round to the profession calling upon ' them to forbear having any professional intercourse with the offender. The meaning of that was that that communication which usually took place between a bar rister and an attorney, which was in writing, not by parol, and which was always accompanied by something substantial, should be discontinued. The barrister to whom be referred was in the habit of practising in the counties of Yolk and Lancaster, and had an inflexible law existed compelling barristers to receive briers from attorneys only, he could not have defended himself against that combination. He had done so, however, by seeing the clients themselves at his chambers, and had dispensed with the intervention of an attorney. He also knell of combinations having existed against barristers in various parts of the country with regard to their ;eking briefs in the county courts. The attornt ys had resolve it they did so not to employ them on the circuit, in the Bankruptcy Court, or in any other court. It was for tnese reasons that he thougt a barrister ought, in every court, to have the option of taking a brief from a client dirt at- It had been proposed to gave the county courts jurisdiction in matters of equity to the extent of 5001; bar, after much, consideration, it had not been thought advisable to do so—an opinion in which he (Lord Brougham) concurred. L ird CARI'BELL said that with regard to the illus trious individual, who was a barrister a; the time when the incident occurred, which his Noble and Learned Friend had alluded to, it might be observed that he was a gentleman of such talents and brilliant elLquence that suitors fl ,cked after him, and the combination of the attorney a could not affect him. There was, however, a class of barristers who lived in the country and never came to London, who had not that nice sense of pro fessional hoaour which they ought to have, and there fore he thought that they should be restrained by an ex press enactment from taking briefs in the county courts from any one but an attorney. The Bill was then read a second time. THE PATENT LAW AMENDMENT BILL. Uon the motion of Lord BROUGHAM, this Bill was read a first time. Lard CAMPBELL observed that be hoped that his Noble and L,arr.ed Friend had inserted clauses in the Bill which enabled a persun to protect his patent from being continued to be intringed, by means of an injunc tion. Lord BROUGHAM said that he had done so. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS ACTS AMEND- MEN r BILL. Upon the motion of L'rd CRANWORTLI, this Bill was read a third time and passed. THE SECRETARY OF BANKRUPTS' OFFICE ABOLITION BILL. Lord CRANWOR 1:11 brought up the report of the Committee upon this Bill, which was received. Their Lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb, 13. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o'clock. PRIVATE BILLS. The following Bills were read a atcond time, and or dered to be coLomitted:— Derby shire, Staffordshire, and Worcestershire Junction Ittsilway. G!aiigow Union Arcade. Newport Improvement. PETITIONS. Mr. HINDLEY presented a petition from the post masters of Ashton, praying for the 'repeal of the post horse duty. Sir R. H. INGLIS presented a petition from a local deanery praying for an alteration in the laws regulating beer-shops. Mr. BIG GINS presented petitions from the county of Mayo preyiug for an amendment of the Irish poor fa w. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL presented a petition from a place in Cavan to the same effect. Colonel BOYLE presented a petition from the poet masters of Frome praying for the repeal of the post hors,., duty, Sir DE LACY EVANS presented a similar petition from the poitrowitera of Westminster. Mr. SCULLY pre,,ented a petition from the county of Tipperary, praying for the repeal of the malt, sugar, and tea dut►es, a'.d fur the abolition of the law prohibit ing the growth of tobacco in Ireland . STRANGERS' GALLERY. Mr. TRELA.WNY wished to ask the Noble Lord at the bead of the Woods and Forests whether he int inded to make any better arrangement for the con venience and comfort of strangers waiting for admission into the gallery than existed at present. If they ad mitted strangers at all they ought to receive them with decency. which was not the case now. Lord SEYMOUR said the arrangements connected with the House were' made long ago by a Committee, and he had abstained from intertering with them, but he would make a point of inquiring into this matter, and see what could be done. MILITIA LAWS. Lord JOHN RUSSELL gave notice that on Monday he should move that the House do resolve itself into a a Committee of the whole House, to take into conside ration ihe existing state of the militia laws. THE BISHOP OF DURHAM. Sir B. HALL wished to ask the Noble Lord a ques tion with ref e r ence to an a pp o i n t ment wh i ch h ad recently taken place to a canonry in the cathedral of Durham, which had become Ecelesi'a: i c l a _c_ant. Dr. Maltby was appointed Bishop of Dur 4,ua upon the understanding that he was to re ceive 8 Mel a-year under the new law established by the Bishop -had r which 1843 there etkreit Commissioners ; but according to returns presented last year, it appeared that the ins:eired 79,6584 more than that income. In to the bishopr: vacancy Bishop had just nvOSs' preferment, whiu ' in one of the rectories attached i rd the Bishop presented his son to the worth 1,2001. , and this own the question he wished m inuted to the canonry. Now, the any correspondence had tate Noble Lord was, whether tween the Ecolesiiafstsioc.alwCheo place on the subject be odhethhad inissioners and the Bishop a any cor r o e objection j p e o c n t i d o e n n c t to lay it before the House? - ofLpourdrhJa.mit'aUnSd'SELL tuodersteor had taken place on the subject of theatßi and there would be no objection to „ rod _ah o P's receipts, arias in the country had been r rue(' it, All the canoneduced to 1,0004 this one came under this law , a year ; Si r 13 HALL the n . moved for the end -pee, WWII was ordered to be laid before t h e House House forthwith. _ __ ______ ON DON, The Hon. Member wished to know whether the ancient laws of Hungary and the Austrian Constitution of 1848 did not secure liberty of conscience to persons of all re ligious p'rsuasions, and whether the Government would not endeavour to obtain ample reparation at the hands of the Austrian Government ? Lord J. RUSSELL said it was true that certain per sons, ministers of the Scottish Free Church, who were residing in the Austrian territories for the purpose of converting the Jews to Christianity, had been expelled from these territories. They were persons who never interfered with the Roman Catholics, or attempted to make them proselytes to the Protestant faith. They certainly never sepported any political agitation or dis cussion. —(Hear.) ►Wen the Hon. Gentleman aske=d him whether under the ancient law of Hungary and the Constitution of 1848 they ought not to have been expelled, he could only say the well-known ancient laws of Hungary were extremely favourable to re ligious freedom (Hear, hear)—so also, he be lieved, was the Austrian Constitution of 1848 ; but those laws had at present no effect, and the Aus trian Government had thought proper to expel these persons. When information on the subject was conveyed to Earl Granville, a communication was ad dressed to her Majesty's Minister at Vienna. He doubted very much whether we could say the proceed ings of the Plustrian Government were either against the municipal laws of Austria or the national rights, but undoubted!y they ought to make reparation to the parties who had endured the hardship of au ex pulsion, and lost besides considerable property.—(Hear.) TRAGEDY AT HOLNIFIRTH. In reply to Mr. G. SANDARS, Sir G. GREY said the magistrates of the district in whieh the appalling calamity at Holaitirth took place had sent him a communication requesting that a Government engineer might be sent down to the spot to attend the adjourned inquest, to make inquiries into the nature of the dreadful accident; and that request bad been complied with. He was not prepared to say whe ther the Government would propose a grant of money to the sufferers and their survivors. INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHT. Mr. LABOUCffERE then rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to carry into effect certain provisions contained in the copyright treaty with France. In 1848 an Act was passed on this subject, which gave the Crown power to make copyright treaties with foreign nations. This enactment, however, only referred to original works, and translations were excluded from it. With the authority of this Act treaties had been made with several continental countries, and negotiations for other treaties were now going on. Recently a similar treaty had been made with France, and this Bill was to authorise the carrying out of points in that treaty which were not authorised by the original Act. The French Government, for instance, had in duced the Crown to grant protection to authorised translations of foreign works; and although there might be some difference of opinion upon this branch of the subject, yet on the whole he thought this rule would work well if it were carried out with certain linaststions; and it was therefore proposed to do so. It was proposed to give the author of an original work the right to provide for a translation within five years, provided he specified his intention to do so upon his title-page. Such were the provisions of the Bill which he now wished to bring in. Before he sat down he might state that a clause in the Bill would enable the Crown to make similar conventions with other countries besides France. Lord MAHON thought the thanks of the country were due to the Right Hon. Gentleman for having in troduced this Bill, as well as to the Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, under whose direction the treaty with France was negotiated. The Right Hon. Gentle man had taken a just view of the subject of translation, and he hoped the Bill would ultimately receive the sanction of the House. He suggested that the Go vernment would do well to come to a good understand lug with Belgium and the United States upon this sub ject of copyright. He bad reason to believe that these two nations were not indisposed to enter into such con ventions, and he should be glad to know if any negotia tions for the purpose were going on? Mr. LABOUCHERE said there were none at pre sent, but when the Bill should have become law, it was proposed to open communication upon the subject with those two countries, to whom copies of the Bill would be forwarded. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. BOAR') OF HEALTH. Lord SEYMOUR obtained leave to bring in a Bill to confirm certain provisional orders of the General Board of Health. NEW REFORM BILL FOR SCOTLAND. The LORD ADVOCATE then rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to extend the right of voting for Members of Parliament, and the law relating to the representation of the people of Scotland. The provisions of this Bill were an much like that introduced for Eng land, that it was quite unnecessary for him to detain the House with any lengthened statement upon the subject. The Noble Lord, who introduced the English Bill brought in the first measure of reform some thirty years ago, but he himself stood in e very different position. The great and distinguished man who introduced the first Reform Bill for Scotland had long been no more, and now nothing was left of him but the results of his public labours and the works of his pen, which had made the name of Francis Jeffrey and the English lan guage known throughout the whole world.--(Hear.) At the time the first Reform Bill was brought in for Scotland she stood in a very different position to Eng land. E❑gland had something like a popular representation, but Scotland had none, or if any it was only a shadow, for the right of returning Members for counties was vested in the Court of Freeholders, who held their property di rectly from the Crown, while the privilege of returning Members for the boroughs was vested in the town coun cil, who elected themselves. And yet, notwith standing such a system, Scotland flourished. but nevertheless that did not prove the inuti lity of a popular representation, but only served to show what a nation might do through the force of its own energies.—(H ear , hear.) The Bill, however, which was brought in and carried by Jeffrey vastly extended the influence and improved the charac ter of tha Scotch people, and though it was considered at the time only an experiment, the people soon satisfied the Legislature that it would succeed, and he could only hope that the angle use would be made of the Bill that was made of the first, and that the candidate and the voter, the land lord and the tenant, the master and the employed, would still continue to make it their duty to maintain the national self-respect, without which popular rights were useless. Looking at the political and moral progress during the last twenty-one years, at the increasing general intel ligence, and the improved tone of political morality, the difficulty they would have would not be in saying what had not been done, but what had been accomplished in that time. They had been taunted with the fact that there was not popular excitement on the subject of reform. That, no doubt, was perfectly true, but, being true, he considered that the circumstance of the measure being introduced during a period of peace, and discussed without excitement, was the greatest ar gument in its favour. It was impessible to have a more t.xpressive tribute to the benefits of the Reform Bill that, his. The absence of that cry for reform, which resounded through the country from the time of the Rockingham Administration to that of Earl Grey, showed that the effect of the Reform Bill was to draw more close together the cords of sympathy between re presentatives and the people. He believed the people had now more confidence in the House, and that they considered it was not necessary, as in former day-, to create, an agitation out of doors. Under the existing 13w in Scotland the county representation was vested in lauded proprietors and holders of long leases of 101. yearly value, and in the second place in those who held under leases for nineteen years, and those who paid 501. rent. It was proposed by the present measure to re ' duce the property and long leasehold qealifications from 10/. to 51., and the 50/. rent qualifications to 201. With regard to boroughs, the qualitio,stion would be th, same as teat in the Beglish Bill which head been intro duced by Lord John Russell—the 101. occupancy would be reduced to 51., and the same provision would be introduced as to the payment of a certain amount of direct taxes. The Learned Lord then entered into a brief statement of the minor details of the Bill, which he said would effect a considerable im provement in the existing law. There would be a right of appeal from the Registration Courts to the Scotch Court of Exchequer, which would decide all points of law arising under the Bill. He concluded by expressing an opinion that the men sure would tend greatly to promote the happiness of the people and the prosperity of the country.—(Cheers.) Mr. CUM?dIDLIG BRUCE said he cordially con curred in the eloquent panegyric uttered by the Learned Lord, but he could not allow this the first stage of the Bill to pass without expressing his strong conviction that it was ill-timed, uncalled for, and in no direction.—(Laughter and hear.) He did not mean to assert that the persons whom the Bill proposed to enfran chise were not as independent and as well qua lified to exercise the right as any other portion of the community, but he conceived that the Bill was an unnecessary meddling with the basis on which the Con stitution rested, and would have a most dangerous and mischievous tendency. He was one who opposed every clause of the Reform Act, and he was ready to admit that the evils he anticipated from it had not been realised.—(A laugh, and hear.) But when the Learned Lord and the Noble Lord at the head of the Government glorified themselves on the --- manifold good which the Reform Bill had produced, he must say that they had not yet been able to elicit an answer to a question which had been put by one of the most illustrious men in this or any other country, viz., "How is the Queen's Government to to carried on 2" In what state had the government :,iihsatra rice eirry of the country been since the passing of that Bill ? For th e l ast few y. are and, indeed, almost at the present moment, the exereire of the Governmental functions were nearly at a dead lock. The Government had frequently been almost unable to on the business of the country. Knowing this, then, he slid that the move the present Government : i . e s r i e tpp n r o o w d a o ki r. ng would tend to remove to a atillgreater Vollrliht the time when there appeared any possible Re cord ia lly getting an answer to that important question, speaker, t h e F i l though there were many points which he highly not surprised at the . speech of the last Roforna ev,r •whattad consistently oosed Parliamentary he really B IbCB he had h ldsent in that House, but was f , • e a . which had fisllee from to hear the remarks, however, Nevertheless he was the Hon: Member for Inverness. characterised as pedsdnlont astonished at these Bills being to understand why the t o lu v easurest and he was at a loss upon bringing in a thorou , i ( . 3rnmkot had not determined 81 Ow b®d of it wil t ' g retorm, for the Noble Lord 4 Doubtit ' utly telling Waal FEBRUARY 14, 1852. SATURDAY EVENING, that they could not have a Reform Bill every session. ; measure; and it was under a direct promise that the sub- Why did the Noble Lord then not carry out this reform I ject of the small boroughs should be taken into consideration movement to the fullest possible extent, and then there at an early period that the Bill had been suffered to pass would have been an end to the agitation on the subject. without an amendment.—(Hear, hear.) The oratory of the He rejoiced to hoar the Learned Lord say that the people Hon. and Learned Gentleman was generally of a very de of Scotland had made such g o o d use o f th e f ranc hi se . It clamatory character, with ou t an y p ar ti cu lar attention to the was not a privilege but th e i r r i g h t , an d w h a t h e wanted details of fact s . H e h a d stated that a mur d erous ou t rage e w f as seeeie committed on a magistrate on returning from a court . was that they should go a stop further, and let every one enjoy the right. He only wished he could live twenty mas t er , years longer to agitate and be a thorn in the side of the the attack, wh g en leaving he had committed a national school Noble Lord until he conceded to the 40s. freeholder the notices he had received showed, that t w h a a s t , the at attack was of i t the, bfeaei fact really that that threateninguseof right of voting. Still there was some good in this Bill, and one of those agrarian outrages arising out of disputes con cerning land. he should support it. What he wanted, however, was that agiL O odeo G neibtl j A d eBm N ee: a. aLart do w :grehi was dsve s ol ea J. ndr e . . surprised h p uyh erssei Russell) sreoheeledlfwa) occasion,ra t w so Government then heetenrhat but uoi fntrw i ol t yntm h s i tae t nan a t ni t opnr e yrefi d otduphpuee t roen h os escimactettiai proposition on a eee every municipal voter should have the right of voting tthoehl franchiseNt for Members of Parliament, and that there should be only one registration, and ho would not rest until he obtains(' both these concessions--(Elear.) any ye clause greatest w defect hinh e e i t n a b a l l i l s h e thesed triennial Biilswa r s a t r h l e ia a m b e se n n te ce an o d f a b g er a n i g ns h t eld — out to that effect, the facts of the case warranted vote by ballot.—( Hear, hear.) an intention quite the converse. Mr. F. MACKENZIE wished for some technical Lord J. RUSSELL observed that the Attorney-General Ad- for Ireland ( Mr. Hatchet!) was perfectly justified in what he explanation of the Bill, which was given by the Lord had said. He had not alluded to any statement that the franchise would be reduced from 81. to 51., but to the general vocate, and the discussion was proceeded with, Mr. STUART was surprised that such a Bill as this should have been introduced, if, as the Hon. Member for wish expressed on the part of the Irish Members, that a plan Montrose said, it was likely to give rise to an annual should be introduced into the Bill in question for adding other loans and boroughs in Ireland, which were declared to agitation on the subject of reform. Ho would, ;0f ttheeiadomisee that i it have a small, but which would have a smaller, body of however, suggest that the representation of the electors under that Bill. In answer to that proposition he counties of Scotland should be more adequate! anjusted to the extent and interests of the populatioyn f L s o h r o d u f d . o Russell) otbead ha t d pd sa h i a d a t i h i there i i ) v u er, t e i i objections to it - that than it was. Why could not the counties of Scotland s t hould receive the ' o c p ons'ideration made the E th W e A ra ß ea T en t r h e ou n g t: be divided into divisions like those of England? Such to that his Hon. and Learned Friend had allueed Government. antdwlles a measure would improve the representation of was perfectly right in his recollection of the circumstance, Scotland, and ho hoped his suggestion would not be lost and of the views of the Government. Now, when they bad, sight of. in accordance with their determination to deal with the whole q b u o a t l h ifica in tion enn ou n g ti h ne t toanbde subject, to take cognisance of the various measures introduced from the year 1837 to the present time relating to the repre boroughs. hC vo a tin s g l sentation of the country, they bad to consider whether there was anything in the Act of 1850 requiring amendment. Mr. MACGREGOR should support the Bill; but,o It would be remembered that at the time many of the nevertheless, he thought it fell far short of what Scot Irish Members said that instead of the franchise being land had a right to expect. He concurred with the HOD. extended it would be restricted by this Bill, for that the 81. Member for Newark, that h large counties • t o and cities franchise would diminish the number of electors. The Se of Scotland might be parcelled out into divisions. cretary for Ireland had a contrary impression ; but when Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. they came to the effects of the measure it appeared that 'NEW REFORM BILL FOR IRELAND. whilst by former returns there were 11,993 electors in the h Sir W. SOMERVILLE, in rising to move for leave to boroughs, by the last return there were only 8,040—a reduc- P n a n rP in a Bill to extend the right of voting for Members of tion of nearly 4,000, and coming to each particular borough Parliament, and to amend the laws relating to the repre- they found that the number of electors in each were only as sentation of the people of Ireland, said that the question of follows : —Athlone, 181; Bandon, 209 ; Cashel, 211; Col the Irish franchise having been so recently under the con- raine, 222; Dungarvon, 314; Ennis, 143; mallow, 143; sideragion of the House—(lronical Protectionist cheers),— New Ross. 171 ; and Portarlington only 71. So that the Bill he now proposed to introduce would not deal so ex- whether they looked to the general numbers or to the tensively with that subject as it would have done were it not particular number of electors in each berough, it seemed for that fact. The House would remember that in the reasonable, when they had the subject under consideration, year 1850 (Another ironical cheer),—it was his duty, in to make some arrangement by which there should be a larger body of electors in the boroughs, and thus there was consequence of the almost extinction of the county franchise a prima fade ground for introducing the measure. He in Ireland, to submit for their acceptance a Bill for the must say that he thought the discussion on which the amendment of the representation. The House would also Hon. and Learned Member for Enniskillen had chose to remember that at that period the measure to which he alluded introduce a sneer at the Attorney General for Ireland, with underwent yez,great discussion, and he believed there was scarcely a entleman in the House who was not a view to producing some laughter in the House, was hardly fully convinced that the time had arrived when an occasion on which it was decent or proper.—(Hear, a reform was absolutely necessary of the existing hear.) It was certainly the case that the first law officer of franchise. At that time the county representation the Crown had gone down to prosecute parsons who, from the for Ireland gave about 27,000 electors; that was evidence laid before him, he was led to believe was guilty of to say, there was that number of electors on the register, a most atrocious murder, and it certainly had happened that though the actual number was considerably below it. He no person hart been convicted. If there had been a failure of had introduced a Bill in the year 1848 to place the county justice in that respect, it was a very lamentable subject. franchise on a new b as i s of rating, but that Bill was subse. (Hear, hear.) It was one which ought to be a matter of con quently withdrawn. In 1850 he introduced it again, and cern to all Members of that House. If life and property were had the satisfaction, with the concurrence of the House, of rendered less secure in that part of Ireland, it was a subject finally passing it into a law. The effect of that enactment that should affect every person who heard it, and he did not upon the representation of Ireland might now be judged of think it an occasion for an idle sneer at a political opponent. from the returns which had been laid upon the table of the —(Hear, bear.) House. Previous to the passing of that measure the number Mr. REYNOLDS regretted that the Hon. and Learned of county electors upon the register in Ireland was 27,000, Member for Enniskillen had introduced gals and bitterness being, as he bad already observed, a far greater number than into the discussion. He might have taken another oppor the bona f l oe county electors really amounted to. The state trinity of bearing angry testimony against his own country of the county franchise there at the present moment was as men; he ought not to have described them as purjurers follows: - Instead of the 27,150 electors who were on the re- murderers, and unworthy of the enjoyment of civil rights. gister before the Act of 1850, the effect of that measure had Mr. WHITESIDE—I deny it. been to increase the number to 135,645. —(Hear.) He be- Mr. REYNOLDS—He was glad the Hon. and Learned lieved, moreover, that the machinery of the Bill had worked Gentleman denied it ; but what, then, was his meaning when satisfactorily, therefore the Bill which, with the permission be said that if they reduced the qualification for the jury of the House, he sho u ld now bring in, was not designed t o panel to 51., Ribbonmen would be empanelled who would interfere in any way whatever with the county franchise.-- try one another, and then they would see the result? With (Hear.) But the state of things with regard to cities and respect to the ill, why was it not incorporated with the boroughs in Ireland presented a widely-different aspect. English Bill? For Scotland there might be a necessity for Under the registration system, before the existing law was a separate Bill, because the law of Scotland was so different passed, the number of voters upon the register for counties from that of England, but there was no such necessity in of cities, and counties of towns, and boroughs in Ireland, the case of Ireland. Why, also, he wished to know, was was as ollows though, as was the case with the county, on- there not a provision relative to freemen voters in large stituencies, the number of bona fide electors was, in reality, towns. In Dublin there were 4,000 of those freemen, who, much less. The numbers which appeared at that time on notwithstanding the principle that representation should be the register were—for counties of cities and counties of towns, based on taxation, could vote without paying any tax what -21,863, and for boroughs 11,995 ; whilst the number of re- ever. The Bill, however, as far as it went was a step in the gistered electors at present upon the rolls for counties of right direction, and he should support it as such. cities and counties of towns was 20,253, and for boroughs Mr. C. ANSTEY complained of the different systems of only 8,046. Thus, so far as the effect of the Bill of 185 U registration in both countries—in Ireland it was self-acting, was ,concerned, it would be seen that it had not in- while in England it was necessary to make application to creased the number of voters ire these places; but that,, on be put on the list of voters. The two countries ought to be the contrary, a considerable diminution had taken place put on the same footing in that respect. as compared w ith th e re gister of 1850. N , w , it w „ Mr. E. B. ROCHE said he approved of the Bill. It undoubtedly intended that the Act of 1850 should was not common sense to say that a comparative it-lig extend the number of voters, but, instead of doing nificant town like Enniskillen should have a voice in that so a decrease had been the result. The proposal con- House, half as potent as a great agricultural county like tamed in the Bill, which he hoped, with the permission of Cork. He (Mr. Roche) was glad that an analonoue Reform the House, to introduce this evening, would therefore be to Bill to that of England has been introduced for Ireland; reduce the borough franchise in Ireland from an Si. for it was a measure very much needed.' The limitation to rating to a 5/. rating. It would be further observed, 400 in Ireland, and 500 in England, was practically the upon reference to the returns on the table of the House, same. He hoped, however, that the Bill for Ireland would that the number of voters in many of the boroughs is be carried through both Houses, part passe with the English Ireland was exceedingly small; and that the number in Bill. He (Mr. Roche) had hoped from the speech of the Hon. Member for Inverness on the introduction of the the counties of cities and counties of towns was in every in stance above 500. Therefore it was not intended to take English Reform Bill, that a change had come over the any measures whatever, further than the. reducti et of the party to which he belonged; but lie was afraid from what had voting qualification from an 81. to a Si. rating so far as re- fallen from the Hon. and Learned Member who had spoken on gards the counties of cities and the counties of towns; but as the other side, that a change had come over them in this respect, and that not daring to refuse reform tor England, regarded the towns where the number of voters was in many they had resolved to make Ireland a battle field to decide instances exceedingly small, it was proposed to apply the same principle as the Bill brought in by his Noble Friend once more the battles of party in Parliament. He warned (Lord J. Russell) applied to England —a principle which was them, however, against that course, which they and their recommended when the Bill of 183.1 was before the House— children would regret, and hoped the Irish Members would and associate with such boroughs certain towns in their never consent to make an onslaught on the liberties of the neighbourhood situate in the same or an -adjoining county. people of Ireland for party purposes. While generally ex which would have the effect of greatly increasing the nuns- pressing his concurrence in the broad principle of the mea sure of the Government, he guarded himself against being mea tier of voters. He proposed, therefore, in every instance where the number of electors now upon the register did not field finally committed to it, especially as neither the English amount to 40J to associate with the parent borough one or nor Irish 'Reform Bills was before the House. It would, more towns in its vicinity in the same or the neighbouring however, receive his most careful consideration. He was not satisfied that the present county franchise in Ireland, for in county, and so increase the number of voters. By reference in to the returns before the House, it would be seen that this • stance, was satisfactory; for it was based on the valuation for the pcor-law, and it was well known that there was no provision of the Bill would affect every borough in Ireland, uniformity of valuation in that country. The franchise could with the exception only of Belfast and Newry. He would . not, therefore, be uniform, when its basis was not so Again, not at present enter further into the details of the Bill, and he considered the Irish county franchise as too high. But the provisions it contained for registration, polling, and the still, believing the measure to be a step in the right direc rest of the necessary machinery. The Bill would not be a tion, he should give it his support. very long one; and he trusted that the plan it was intended Mr. NAPIER would not have interposed in the debate to carry out would prove satisfactory to the House. Mr. WHITESIDE said he had no desire to resist the in- only that some of the views put forward by his Hon. Friends the Members for Enniskillen and Inverness had been per solving the difficult problem of what would best remedy the had not suggested to give every four hundred electors the evils of Ireland. But he might congratulate the Right Hon. power of representation ; for, if that principle was carried out Baronet upon his being the individual who had discovered how representativesmroyr-dhad would be elected for London ? The the necessity of reforming his own Reform Bill, though it was as yet scarcely twelve rnon•hs old.—(Laughter.) He and Learned Friend e nt on the observations of his Hon. (Mr. Whiteside, had examined the returns relative to the knew his Hon, Member for Enniskillen; but every petitions presented to that House, and had fonnd that the whoone llthat he was wholly incapable Learned Friend knew perfectly number in favour of the Irish Reform Bill of 1850 amounted 7 his observations .—(Hear, incapable of the construction put . — (Hear, hear.) If he (Mr. Napier) un to one, and it was signed by 49 persons, whilst there was one derstood the argument of also presented against it signed by 34—thus giving a . he had Friend aright,only his Honourable and Learned asked the Attorney- General for ma jority of t 5 in its favour. (Laughter.) For 1851 he found the return nil, and he firmly believed that it would be impos. lreland . .. _ was prepared to follow out consistently his own principle—namely, to reduce the qualification of a Bible to find in Ireland any body of individuals, in a respect- Juror to that of a 5/. able position of life, who would set their hands and signs- - juries. He (111reNa • elector, or to enable 51. electors to sit on h pier) cast no reflection on the con tures to a petition praying this House, in the present condi- of the • uries on duct .1 t e late trials in the north of Ireland, Lion of Ireland, to extend the franchise to the Si. householders. but nevertheless, thought it a perfectly • fair proposition to He thought so, because they would be of opinion that it was • consider the squestion whether the Me . f l ed the who would have to deal with sub who were best qualified to those who were the worst quali. jecth involving the glory and greatness of the empire, should find to use it.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord had introduced his • be disqualified for the jury-box, or vice " ce versa ? The argu- English Reform Bill on the ground of the increased circa- meet was a fair argument;lion and he (61r. Napier) was satis lation of newspapers and periodicals, and the growing Intel-. fled for one that his and Learned Friend in using it did ligence of the people. But no such reason as that could be not in the slighest degree * seek to cast any imputation on the urged in support of this measure for Ireland, for the Noble administration of • justice in Ireland. - (Hear.) As regarded Lord himself had heretofore described the newspapers of the Bill before the Hoes he, e (Mr. Napier) felt bound to say that country as uniformly advocating sedition and disorder. that he did not regard it with any very pleasant That ground failed, therefore, in reference to his (Mr, anticipations with respect to its operation in Ireland. The Whiteaide's) unfortunate country. He readily admitted Noble Lord who governed that country said on a recent oc that in Ireland there was some increase of knowledge ; be- cation that what Ireland wanted was peace and repose—that cause it had been observed by the police that the Ribbon men might sit d notices were written in a much better style than for- calmly. This Bill l wn and pursue their several occupations would have a contrary effect to that pre merly.—( Loud laughter.) The spelling was better, the dieted by the orthography was more accurate, and, if the Noble Lord took He (Mr. Na • Lord-Lieutenant as a necessary for Ireland. pier) consieered, moreover, that as the qualifica the trouble, he would discover the reason of it to be that tion for boroughs some of the schoolmasters paid out of the national fund had figure, by theoughs had been fixed last year at its present consent of all parties, there was no ground now been the writers.— (Hear, hear.) At this moment a ma- to disturb it.ln respect of the small constituencies, he did gistrate in Ireland was suffering the most excruciating not think the ill would improve the representation ; at pre torture, he having been shut because he had committed a sent these b schoolmaster to prison for writing Ribbon notices, Mr. wer zughs did not return the worst members. LAGEI said the 8/. franchise fixed last year and showing some activity in putting down the the House, been 1 Ribbon conspiracies.—( n , , , --ear. j Ine registration under House. J a re subject of a long and bitter debate in that that occeesion the majority of the Irish people Act of I°so had just been completed by the barristers, and protested against the 10/. franchi,e. The Noble Lord saw 110,000 persons added to the constituencies. Now, these his error, r _,.., and hastened to rectify it; and new they were electors had not yet had the opportunity which a general r _ .r. that .. the Irish Members submitted to the 81. franchise. election would give them of exercising their privileges, and , °I " y wo Members for Irish boroughs had voted against testing the effects of that measure of reform. In particular the sum L e sum of 8/ in favour of a lower sum; while 28 Irish instances of' borough elections there had been no corruption, county * cered Members had voted in the other direction. He con because there had been no Coppock.—(Loud laughter.) Yet. Bill a step in the right direction, and he should the Right Hon. Baronet now came forward to condemn his 1 therefore Bi the hir J. YOUNG give it his support. own measure, and declare that it was necessary for the said his remembrance of the agreement peace of Ireland to reform the Reform Bill. But not only 6 of * lastyear was, that the borough franchise and the county had there been an increase in the constituencies, but a franchise oud not assimilating, her selajesty's Government were diminution in the Population of Ireland which counted by n to take up the matter this session. He did not think millions. What, therefore, constituted the necessity for the b present Bill? Who had called for it? Nobody. Who ex- the union of small towns with the existing small boroughs would be satisfactory in practice as in Ireland; unlike Eng pected ; who desired; who wished for it ? No one. He and, these towns wore in general widely apart. Nor did he protested against the principle of the Bill. The system I believe that the addition of those towns would make the of adding towns and boroughs together, for the purpose of borough constituencies any better than they now were; making up a constituency, had never existed in Ireland dm inasmuch as they would be formed of people who had lost ins the five centuries that she had possessed representative their land in the country, and who had crowded to these institutions —and the only effect of this alteration would be towns to live. He was of opinion that it would be far bet to give power to those who were the least qualified to use it. (Hear.) TT Upon one point, he must say, he congratulated ter to give an increased representation to the large towns and boroughs. As regarded the qualification, he had no ob the Right Beneath The separation of the Irish from the English Reform Bill was highly judicious, and highly sig. jection to it. nificant also. That he d 9 meantwhatever arehen e ,might Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. LIGHTI eG THE HOUSE. be the fate of the English Reform Bill, the Irish Reform Bill, House be Sir J. PAKINGTON then moved that the as a B,parate measure, would be rejected by the good sense was and discernment of the House.—(Hear.) There was another lighted with wax candles in the future. If Housethe sho should be left Point Upon which he wished to put a question, either to the to be lighted with gas he would prefer that it prefer it to be Right Hon. Gentleman or his Hon. and Learned Friend op- to Dr. Reid ; but if it was not, he should the had polite (the Irish Attorney-General), who had just returned lighted with wax candles. At present y lan he Proposed flushed with his triumphs from the Special Commission' smell in the house, and a bad light. The P triumphs, at Mo^a - ehan.—(Loud laughter.) In reply to a question which would remedy both. how the House could accede he put to big R,ght Hon. Friend the other eveniog, he was Mr. BROWNE did not see ba resolved that the lighting, informed that it was the intention of her Majesty's Govern- to the proposition, as they t the House should be under one nent to introduce a Bill respecting the jury law of Ireland. warming, and ventilationo they had ordered Dr. Reid to send , Now, the present jury law in Ireland followed the first Re- person ; and as, moreover,tbateect. form Bill, and under its provisions the 10/. elector became in his estimates to that said D. Reid did not understand the qualified also to serve on juriee. Did the Government, then, Lord SEYMOUR eHouse, whether be was to send in an esti resolutions of e eh House and library (Lord 's for the Committee acting en that precedent, mean to lower the qualification then mate for the H e (Lord Seymour) had advised franchise, and found the new Jury Bill on the basis of the Si. refreshment rooms. and follow the resolutions. It would be inconvenient l i r, ;b r ie°, which they proposed to establish by their present " r Ills firm belief was that if that were ar nounced nothing hirti tt:enter on the question. Besides which wax candles remained for the weak and the innocent but to pre: are for now be of no use if the passages were to be lighted with rh .Noble PromisebGt l i nelhtßeet. s a' NirOu death, and for the strong and the powerful to defend them- as the ar o o n, of which Dr. Reid complained, would selves against a co n f e d erac y so powerful a n d un it e d th a t his gas as infromthe lobby. _Hon. and L earned Friend (Mr. Hatchell, the Attorney- Sir 0- NORREYS charged the N o bl e Lord with recom lieneral for Ireland), though accompanied by a corps of mending Dr. Reid to send in such a report as would make counsel, was unable to obtain the conviction of one man. the resolution of the House ridiculous, because he was op- Mr• • HATCHELL said the observations of his Hon. and pos ed to them. Learned Friend had beendoublehad made with . a view. He Mr. HERBERT called the attenti • on of the Noble Lord to e supposed the condition of the strangers' endeavoured to draw into the discsession som tgallery, where those who sat Bill about • Jur°ra, and it was most unreasonable to expFcn might posibly hear what passed, but ld that he (Zete Hatchell) should then enter upon the discussio than the mace on the t b cou see nothing nearer of a Bill not before the House, and which might be brought seemed strangers were not accom a le. He also complained that modated with any place to wait in, in or not. The Hon. and Learned Member also . but were tom II had die- pe ed to stand in Westminster Hall at the risk to intimate that the Chief Secretary for Ireland ure of their lives, covered some gross inaccuracy or oversight in the mess After a few sed a few words from Mr. S. MAYAN.), Mr. RemLE, and reforming th e Irish representation which was PaP The Mr. Gou years ago, and which it was now sought to remedy. ' Lord ; 3* ignorance of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman on of J. RUSSELL was understood to say• he was in favour the matter must be attr ibuted to his not having been a Wax candles; but he thought it would be advisable to ,Member of the Rouset the period referred to. He would h ave the whole case before the House before a decision was inform him, then, ho a the case stood. At the period in arrived at. question there was a w s t ro ng demand by several of th e Mr. FOSTER moved for a return of the tolls collected by Irish Members that should be enxrafted on the Bill I the corporation of the City of London at the several gat" 1 ~.... _ there the thou passed the t• •ne embodied 14 the pr esent and ayepee of the City for the jut three yearof ellu`" pr 9 #31.0_,4 31st day of December, 1851 ; distinguishing the amount col lected at each gate or avenue; together with a specification of the tolls. The House a ijourned at Eight o'clock. ON REFORM WITHOUT THE BALLOT IN THE SMALL BOROUGHS OF DEVON SHIRE. TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN. SIR,—As I conceive it to be the duty of every person, who may be desirous of seeing the ballot appended to the Government nleature of reform, to brirg to light any circumstacces calculated to promote the accomplishment of so desirable an end as giving protection to honest voters, I take the liberty, as an elector of Totters (one of the small class of boroughs), to make a few remarks on some of our past elections, and to show what would be the probable effect of the new Reform Bill, without the ballot, in towns of this class. • It will be recollecTd that Totnea has been the scene of several very severely contested eketions, and no one can deny that they have been attended with the most dis astrous consequences to the trade and commerce of the town. Io the year 1839, Mr. Parrott, one of the th. n Members for the borough, resigned his seat, and we wt re plunged into a contest of the most severe descrintien resulting in a double return. The candidates at that time were Mr. B .Ii win (erre of the present representatives). and Mr. Blount, a son-in-law of the Duke of Somerset. Party spirit ran dreadfully high, and interest of every checription was brought to bear cn both sides of the question. The numtKrs polled by each catididtste being qual, there was to have beef, a scrutiny before a Corrimite e of the House of Commons, who, boa ev r, delved :he election to be null and void in consequence of some informality in the preeeedieee Oho nature of which I need tot explain); a new elec ti , n was the result. when the candidates were Mr. B win and Mr. Thomas Guv Gisborne (the eldest son of the veteran reformer). Another close contest ensued, anti party contention ran as high as betore. Mr. Bald win, however, succeeded in being returned by a majority of seven (a censiderable time baying elapsed and a fresh registration take place between the two elections, by which a number of fictitious votes were added to the Conservative side). Now, Sir, the cricumetance to which I am about to call your attention is this:—On each of the occasions to which I have referred, " Lists of the Poll" were printed and circulated amongst the adherents of one of the po litical parties, by which it could be seen at a single glance how every tradesman had voted. lam not going to state what of such an act may have caused in thin town; I do riot profess to attach myself particularly to either the Rsdical or Tory sack; but Ido not think it would be possible to calculate the extent of injury capable of being inflicted by resorting to such a practice as this. Some of these lists are still in existence, and may, like so many embers, be easily re-kindled into a flame at the first outbreak of a political egitution. True it is that each party may adopt the same course; but I totally ob ject that any party whatever should have the power of publishing to the world how every tradesm a n and work man has voted, and thus set man against man, and have the effect of intimidating a tradesman particularly from giving a conscientious and independent vote. Fancy the effect of such a practice as the one I have described being resorted to in a neigbouring town (Tor quay), where the tradesmen are mainly eependent for support on the aristocracy who flock to that fashionable watering-place, and where, during the winter months, there is frequently an i flux of from 2,000 to 3 000 of the higher classes of society, including a pretty good sprinkling of tee clergy ! A tradesman could scarcely dare to give a conscientious vote, for tear of his name being published with a view to obtain patronage for the serfs of party only. I happen to know, from frequent communications with several of the Torquay tradesmen, that hundreds there have been heard to express that they had no desire what ever to have a share in the election of borough Members for fear of consequences that might ensue. I say, God forbid they should, for their own sakes, unless shielded by the ballot. I could say a great deal more on this subject, but fear I have already taken up more space than you will allow me. I venture to assert, however, that without the ballot, the new measure of Reform will be productive of evil rather than good in small boroughs; but accompa nied with the ballot, it would give general satisfaction. I am, Sir, your obedient servant, AN ELECTOR OF TOTNES. A STANDING NAVY. TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN. The paying off the Ganges and Southampton at this critical period has at length demonstrated the imbeci lity of putting together a complicated and beautif u l p i ece of machinery at an enormous expense, and as soon as it has attained perfect winking order, the whole of the elements of which it was composed was scattered to the why's. It is, therefore, a source of the very greatest possible pleasure to me to see that you have !aken up a subject of such vital importance to the British empire as the manning our ships of war; and would to God your influential j ourna l h a d t hi rty years ago been equally zealous iu ativocating the con centration of our naval forces to five of the maximum rates, which I have incessantly advocated in oilier to prevent a recurrence of the disgrace which was inflicted on our country by the defeats we sudained from the Americans in the last-war, when the Board of Admiralty at that period were obliged to issue an order t the captains of our frigates not to risk an action with the American frigates! forsooth, because they were so much inferior to them in size, calibre of guns, and number of men. Yet, notwithstanding this self-convicted blindness on their part in not keeping pace with the times in building ships of equal magnitude with other maritime powers, will it be believe in defiance of the constant warnings they had, they continued buil ing donkey frigates of 26 guns, line-of-battle ships of 70 guns, 10-gun brigs, and nondescript corvettes, until within the last three or four years. The - millions that have been squandered in this way have been of that enormous amount that it has always been to me a subject of amazement that it was tolerated for such a protracted period. Sir, the only remedies for these evils are those which I have advocated in vain for many years. The first is, to have a standing navy, like a standing army, by which means we can keep all our educate I gunners, which cost us such large sums in training, and when turned adrift after three years' service generally go to America, where the exodus of the Irish, English, and Scotch population are bending their steps. With a eta ding navy we have the power of selecting and retaining none but the best men in the service, which on au emergency form the nucleus of ships' crews for increasing our flees; wheras, by the present privateer system, we are allowed to take wh a t men w e can get, good, ad, and indifferent, to man our ships of war; and even this process is generally extended over some months before a ship can be got ready for sea! With a standing navy, when a ship comes home from a foreign static n, if on examination she is found to require considerable repair, the crew would in that case be turned over to a ship of the same class in ordi nary, and fitted out immediately, a portion of them receiving that leave of absence to see their friends to which they are undoubtedly entitled. Again, with respect to the concentration of our ships of war to five of the maximum s;zes, the materiel of one rate would be applicable to every one of the same rate. The eco n my that would by this means ensue i❑ the materiel would he enormous; in addition to which the maximum size of each rate would be not only a match for every enemy's ship of the same rate, but would be sure to annihilate all others of inferior sizes, though nominally of the same rate. If you will steadily advocate these effective remedies for the crying evils which exist in the government of the navy, you will render an Important service to our common country, which is now labouring under the apprehension of invasion—a subject that never would have entered into any man's mind had the timely warning been taken which I g•ve twenty years ago, and been therefore prepared f r all eventualities. Of those who have not had the capacity to do that which they ought to have done, it may with truth be said—" Amabilis insania, et mends gratis:iinus error t" I am. Sir, &c.,- J. RYDER BURTON. 15, Park-square, Feb. 12. NAVAL INI_'L.LLICIENCE. The members of the new Board Of Admiralty, including Rear Admiral Sir James Stirling were gazetted last night. Rear-Admiral the Hon. M. F. Berkeley, C. 8., M P., and Roar-Admiral H ,uston Stewart, M.P., have announced their intention of receiving officers on Tuesdays, at two o'clock in the afternoon. Rear-Admiral Deans Dundae, CB. , in his flag-ship Britannia, 120, Captain Grildsmith, i s said to have been seen by the Pilot on Wednesday off Plymouth, running down Channel under a fine topsail breeze. The wind after wards shifted. Argus, steam sloop, in charge of the second master attend ant Mr. Davy, sailed from Portsmouth for Devonport on Thursday afternoon. She will form one of the . advanced steamers at that port. Cormorant, 6, steatn-sloep, Commander Chamberlain, arrived at Spithead yesterday morning from Rio, from whence she sailed on Christmas -eve. She has sailed nearly all the way home, and had but one ton of coals on ,board when she anchored. She Li come into harbour to g,t fud, and will proceed to Woolwich to pay uff. Her boilers are :n a deplorable state, and have been so bad that she lay at Rio nearly six months as a guard-ship. Commander Cham. berlain has completely recovered from fever. il, - -a Harpy steamer, the Crescent receiving -ship, and the Col American frigate were at Rio whenprtihzeesC, o e r m m p o t r y an s t la l v e e f r t g T re n s : Cormorant has taken all ut eight of which she sent to St. Helena for condemnation the others stw° were destroyed. She has experienced bad weather for the last ten days. Pilot, 12, Commander Hic sd k t ! u ey n , , vir aoort mustered, Thursday morning, inspected, and exercised in Plyinuut'i by Captain Lowe; after which she was towed into harbour by the Confiance, and placed alongside the dockyard to pre pare for paying off. Simoom iron screw steam troop-ship, was to have gone out to ,rY her Captain Kingcome, machinery after repair. She got up her steam, but, i n way , and she w as towed moving, something again gave where she r e mai ns; and it is ov uncertainer to thewmhoeonrsihnge off Gosport, will be tried. Mr. Durrien is (we understand) expected at Portsmouth to examine the machinery. S prightly, Master Commander Allen, succeeded, after much trouble, in • getting the .gnus, barque, off shore on . Wednesday. On Thursday the Sprightly took down Colo nel Sir Frederick Smith, of the Engineers, and a board of O fficers. They landed at Sconce Point, in the Isle of Wight, at Hurst Castle, and at Calsbot Castle, and minutely exa mined the state of the defences at those points. Capt a i n Hall, R.N. also went down in the Sprightly "A CHANNEL SQUADRON." Under this head we find the following in the Chronicle of yesterday:— It is resolved to organize a powerful Channel squadron which will be cruising be tween S p ithead, Plymouth ! , ana Queenstown during the summer. A gallant vice-adrnira 1 who distinguished hi mself iu China, will m ost probablyhave the command of ' t hi s evolutionary force, Which will com prise the finest sailing and steam ships in the British nav and will include alt or most of the foll owing :-. y , H. M. S. Waterloo 12),H. M. S. s c., uperb Queen ......... 1 16 80 PP PP Boscawen Neptune l2O 70 St. George l2O Blenheim Impregnable... 104 ~ Edinburgh " ....tg . Vincent ... 10 0 I, Hogue . ” Prince Regent 9 2 ft Ajax ••• • " I Rodney . ........ ~ ~ Arethusa PP London n I „ Phaeton 5O IP ...... ••• ...2 Indef ati gable „ Ganges 1 ), 5l) ~ The whole of the 841 „ Leander „ ,50 Ganges and Edinburgh, ove ships, with the exception of the _u___ will ,___ 0 some time to serve on her arrival 441 1 9 i rgut l a nv itioulbci, 1 . . . from the oral pi , .i A )AC4(I pis® fjligi 99m. plete by cruising. The flag-ship of this new squadron evolution will be the Sanspareil screw two-decker of 81 guns, and the Commander-in-Chief Vice-Admiral Sir Thos. Cochrane, K.C.B. It is scarcely necessary to state that there is not the slightest foundation for the above formidable statement. It is a piece of pure romance, both with respect to ships and commander-in-chief.— Herald. PORTSMOUTH, FEB. 13.—The Camperdown, 104, advanced ship, which was driven from her moorings a week or so since by the violence of the gale, was taken back to-day, the moorings having been repaired. PoaTsmottam GARRISON, Her Majesty's Government having ordered the permanent staff of the militia throughout rest Britain and Ireland to be inspected by field-officers of the regular army, to ascertain its present efficient state pre. vious to the militia being drawn for and called out before Jame next for drill, Lieutant-Colonel Ward, of the 48th Re giment, quartered in this garrison, has been selected to In spect those in this district, the South and North Hants, Ile of Wigh , , Sussex, Dorset, and Wilts. PLYMOUTH, FRIDAY, FEB. 13.—Her Majesty's brig Pilot, which arrived from Portsmouth on Wednesday, yester day inspected by Captain Lowe, of her Majesty's ship um pregnable, and her crew was exercised at the guns, ater which she was towed up harbour by the steam - vesse l Pilo, preparatory to her being paid off. was APPOINTMENTS. WOOLWICH, Pen. W.—Second Master John W. It rfar7- vl.- (1847) to the Horatio, 24, screw steam guard -ship at Sheerness. Clerk William H. Richardson (1845) to the Simoom, steam troop-ship, at Portsmouth. Captain Kelett, C. 8., Commander of the Resolute, and Captain Richards, appointed t o the Assistance, the sail ing vessels of the Arctic expedition, visited these vessels at Woolwich to-day, and Lieutenant Osborn, appointed to com mand the Pioneer screw steam-vessel for the same service, visited her y sterday. A nun-bar of caulkers commenced caulking the Assistance and Resolute to-day, both these vessels basing remained in the dry dock since they we re p a id o ff on th e ir return font the last Arc is expedition., The Highflyer steam-sloop is ordered to be supplied„ w ,„ it i ll fly,. iron provision tanks on a plan approved of b 7 the ralty and Surveyor of the Navy, and to be furnished to tees se's for holding provisions, instead of the wooden bins hitherto used for that purpose. SHEERNESS, THURSDAY. Her Majesty's ship Ganges, 84, was warped this morning from the south side of the basin to the west side, and underneath the sheers, for the purPf h ts e of having her masts removed prior to being taken int ° dry dock to make good her defects, and to begot ready fo r commissioning . She had her mizenmast taken out this afternoon.. Her Majesty's ship Russell, 72, was removed to the south side of the basin to have her hold stowed, and to take her tanks on board. She is to be fitted forthwith for service. Her Majesty's ship Waterloo, 120, C a pt a i n G. R. ge,f ici .t flagship of Vice-Admiral the H on . J osce li ne Percy, ,—; mander-in-Chiet at the Nore, was placed thi s m orning - ; the north side of the basin, in orde r th a t, as soo n as 1, 7. ,- tides permit, she may be removed to h er moor i ng s off '— north end of the Dockyard. Her internal arrangeme ntS ' painting of her cabins, &c., are finished, an d o n her quitting the basin her officers and crew, at present in the Mieo ta l t ' will be removed into her. She has been upwards of all months under the hands of the dockyard. n rtly Four steamers, it is currently reported, are to be 1 3 `•"' got ready at this port, as an addition to the present ate" — squadron of reserve. Her Majesty's steam-sloop Hydra, Mr. Thomas Beira et commander, after starting from Portsmouth for the Cape a l Good Hope, with the new Governor of that colony, Ge lier . Cathcart and suite, wrung her rudder-head, and was c o o sequence obliged to put into Plymouth on Monday afte llis° last, to have the necessary repairs effected. ved The Goodwill, dockyard lighter, Patrick master, WTI 0 „ on Wednesday evening from Chatham with stores, and is u loading in the discharging ba in. She will sail for Portsino: in a few days, with other stores for the naval arsenal of Ow port.. Wind, E N. 8., weather fine. FRIDAY MOANING. —Her Majesty's steam -sloop couta, 6, 300-horse power, Polyphemus, 5, 200-horse P.°”„ and Pluto, 4, 100-horse power, are t o b e s t a ti on ed at this 1 7 _",„ . as an increase to the present s t eam squa d ron of rese rv .; They are to be provided with th e i r sea stores, Sc., 1° sal months, so as to be ready for any serv i ce f or w hi c h they 111 ' be required. The brig Coquet, Bain master, put out of the bashz„t Wednesday, and having got her ballast on board, sails" day for Newcastle. The stoker, J. Duly, of her Majesty's steani-frigs" Amphion, who lost his fife on Tuesday last, by the upsetting of the ship's boat in the harbour. has lef.tds widow and child in great distress. An appeal is being tn",,, to the humane and charitable of the port on behalf of tm. family, which has been already responded to by nlaff in spectable individuals to such an extent as to supply tue to media e wants of the widow. The body of the unfortunass man has not yet been recovered. The boat in which he l ot contained two iron pigs of ballast, the cause no doubt of sinking. Her Majesty's screw steam guard-ship Horatio, 24 . C an sP d tain S. T. Carnegie, will be ready to cross her lower vet topmast yards to-day. Few, if any, able seamen bri e f ie . while on dutys, volunteered to join her. There appears to be a great,,,regs tance on the part of our blue jackets to enter fat shir" - tinned here. Itto,LAN.II DUBLIN, FRIDAY.—J. seph Carter, p ro p r i e t o r and edit:: of the Dundalk Democrat, extreme t enant - r i g ht journal , arrested last night, by order of th e G overnmen t, for 1 13 % cious and wicked libels, exciting h a t re d an d m alice beticeiii landlords and tenants. H was admitted to bail, and be tried at the nex , assizes. Toe election of a representative for Kinsale took P!, a b ce , yesterday, when Mr. J o hn I saac H ear d was re turned v"" o g out opposition. Mr. H ear d was proposed by s Lieutell a _ Daniel, R N., and secon d e d by Major Warren. Ther e j no popular feeling whatever evinced on the occasion. Miles opened, lesl. RAILWAY ttET URNS .ST WE X 1,122 616 141 26% K 554 18914 94% 6% 65 596 3,47 6 2,276 2,111 171% 241% 183 277 228 9336 427 909 717 312 621 157 243 202 12,814 6.477 304% 279 2,850 750 109 mot 70 TRAFFIC RETU . NS FOR THE P. NAME OF RAILWAY. BRITISH. Aberdeen • • ..•• ....• Belfast and Ballymena • • •• •• •• •• •• •• Belfast and County Down• • • • • • • • •• Birkenhead, Lancashire, and Cheshire Bolton, Blackburn, and West York • • • Bristol and Exeter •• • • •••• Chester and Holyhead. •• •• •• .• Cork, Blackrock, and Passage •• • • • • Dublin and Ballast Junction •• •• Dublin and Drogheda Dublin and Kingstown •• •• • • • •• •• •• Dundee and Arbroath ...... ..... . •• Dundee, Perth, and Aberdeen Junction Dundalk and Enniskillen— .. East Lancashire Eastern Counties and Norfolk Eastern Union • • •• • • • • • • • • • •• • • • • • • Edinburgh and Glasgow ••• • •• •• •• •• Edinburgh, Perth, and Dundee•• • • •• Exeter and Crediton......“.. •• Furness Railway •• .• •• Glasgow, and South-Western...... • • Great Northern and E. Great Southern and Western (Ireland) Great Western •• Irish South Eastern • • •• •• •• .. • • •• •• Lancaster and Carlisle.-- •..... .. Lancashire and Yorkshire •• • • • • • • •• Leeds and Thirsk •• •• •• •• a. •• Liverpool, Crosby, and Southport.... London and North Western ; ... London and Blackwall• • • • • • •• •• •• •• London, Brighton, and South Coast.. London and South Western. Londonderry and Enniskillen . ... Manchester, Buxton, and Matlock, &c. Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Manchester and South Junction.• •• Maryport and Carlisle • Midland • • •• • • ...... •• •• .6 •• Midland Great Western (Irish) •• •• •• Newcastle and Carlisle.. ,• • • •• 6 : ... North British ••..•••• • • •• ••.. , North Staffordshire ..... ••• North-Western •• •••• • • Scottish Central • • • ... Scottish Midland •• •• S B s h hr lir re e o w p w ib b t ur u re r Y Y ti a a n en to d- : 1 7.7 11 al . n . .• South Devon. .•••.••• tI, Eastern south Wa les t .. • York., Doncaster, and Goole .. son. • Waterford and Limerick West Cornwall .......• •• • • Whitehaven Junction : York and Newcastle, and Berwick::: York and North Midland 152 57U 21% 63 442% 134% 24u Central of Fr FOREIGN. an .. ce .. •........... Dutch Rhenish • . • • ..... • • •-•• M ... Maria Antonia .. •....... •• •• •• •• M ontereau and Troyes •• •• •• • • •• '• Northern of France ••••• • • • • • ••• Orleans stud Bordeaux .• •••••• •• • • Paris and Lyons ••••••••• • •• • • •* Paris and Orleans •• •• •••• •• • • " Paris and Borten . •• •• •• •••• " •• Paris and Strasburgh •••.•• •• • • •• .touen and llavre •••• " •• •• •.: Tours and Nanta,.. •• • •• • • •• • • • • 823 17,292 2." 2 4,8 6 6,920 5,404 4,50 5 2. 222 1,2 97 8 17, 708 4,32 4 8, 213 5, 798 7, 35° 9, 284 2,012 RAILWAY SHARE MARKETS' BRIM! )14, Fan. 13. ne STOCK EXCHANGE.—There was little or nothing do the share market to-day. The only sales reported fd" 'Change were—Great Western, 86!4 ex div.—Bristol I+' Exeter, 86k. LIVERPOOL, FEB. 13. STOCK EXCHANGE. —The share market opened O f f re strong this morning, but it has since gone flatter, 80 ' 1111 :at anxiety is manifested. In the afternoon it was inactive, foi, prices were ti , m at the close The transactions were 1 0 5 4 low : Caledonian, 151 4-Lancashire and Yorkillire ti l ic la Ditto, Fifths, 6 15-16 dis.—Ditto, Fifths (Wes' , l k-- Union). 4 11-16 dis. —London and North-Western. I "'",,nd Ditto, New Quarters, 33fi Lincolnshire, 3044 p .—Manchester, Sheffi,eAiw - ay 58.P 4 —St. Helen's CrT at t i . and Canal), New Preference, 6 per cent., 2% I N-- 9z Eastern and Dover, 20 4 4—York and North Midland, 21/11* SIANCHESTER, FEB. 13. of Sroox Ea M ess has been a fair am ount ess done to-d a y, b u t p r i ces i n most cases were le i „ vi n e usm : tha n yesterday. The transactions were as follow: cashire and Y or k s hi re , 65%—Di t t o , Fifths, 6 15-16 c o y West Riding, 4 1 4 dis.— London and North-Western, -1;',1), Quarters, 3 13-16 p. —Manchester and Birmingham Ori u. p.—Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire, 3134;ter Midland, 58 i,—South-Eastern and Dover, 20:rs c. and Birmingham, 16'4 Great Northern, Preference, 147 BIRMINGHAM, Fal3. 13. STOCK EXCHANGE. —The share market was more sou rs to-day, although late quotations are scarcely m aints r , The transactions were as follow: Eastern Counties, 7:49.d. Midland (Birmingham and Derby), 28%—South shire, 1% dis. THE AMAZON.—Anotber - meat of th e ill-fatel Amazon has come into the Channel, and drifted ashore at Broadmark-lave, a mile to the eastward of Littlehae3Pl pier. It is banded, 2ft. Sin. in diameter, is 4 0 ft. i n leo"fi perfect, with eight of the iron hoops on, 13ft. from the Oa; but is burnt from this tapering to a point at the top, en, Ar d attached to it at the step an iron winch. It has bean amen possession of by Mr. P. Isemonger, the derelict rec eive !:ae this district. Fragments of charred spars and p lan t s l o also been picked up on o ur beach during the v ireek.---P I V - - Gazette. • A Cork paper records the extraordinary stance of a young woman, residing near Passage tvro having on Saturday last given birth to four chili:ire:3l,k,, boys and two girls a of Who m were (wiz% well , a nd I -4 Tilt