The Sun. — London, England, 1837-06-10 00:00:00

Thy Ch'ale_ education of the people is left to the government of f. 4n n e Z , and so far from attempts being made to extend the it. T ' s e , every nerve has been strained to narrow and curtail the days he vovernment of corruption is not ended, neither are of Toryism numbered. Arid, to sum up the catalogue record, it is now evident to every one that the present Govern vitet i s doomed ; every one says this to his neighbour in pri or) ; I cann ot un d erstand why i t should not b e pu bli c l y r „... w ed- W e a ll o f us we ll know that the termination of the L;sent Ministry is but a question of small time ; and we look de n the early i ncom i ng o f that party which we were confi h""Y told was f or ever destroyed, as inev i table as to some i t P ai nfully disa‘sreeable. I will assume, Sir, by way of )pothesis the NI" is , and for the purposes of the present argument, that e _ unstry arc honest in their i n tentions, and that when they me into power they really desired to obtain for the people that which the people believed to be the legitimate fruits of the Reform Bill. The real state of the Legislature at that time at f lu ghf to b e care f ully recollected. One branch of the Legis :ure, viz., the llouse of Lords, were well known to be bitterly hostile to the popular demand s , a nd the house of Commons also w known very imperfectly to represent the whole population (t)ify tw the country. Working, then, with instruments thus defec i courses lay before the Ministry seeking to obtain ore;henoation that good governmen t w hich they bad lon g de bsrlded• They might endeavour to win over their opponents 11 3 : i compromise, in the hope of disarming opposition ; or they theirt pursue a b o ld an d d eterm i ne d course , an d t h us f orce enemies and the people's enemies to yield. Unfortu s-nately the present Cabinet determined on the first course ; and from the moment of their accepting office down to the Present hou r t h e i r G overnment h as b een a constant see-saw between hostile principles. To-day they arc liberal ; to morrow the reverse. Aristocratic in principle ; democratic in p re tence. So far a s re l a t es t o th e manner o f th e i r proceed. 4 gs. The matter of their proposals has been of the same nature. They have come forward with large promises arid etuf;an performance. Va g u e ly liberal has been their talk—in "tive and use l ess h ave been their measures. What has tiie e : l the nece ssary resu l t? Th ey h ave t o t h e utmost angere d 'r OPPonents ; they have created an hostility that cannot be atirPassed—fierce, bitter, and undying, it is impossible to in crease and apparently impossible to allay it. But they have a llowed done any t hi ng to i nsp i r i t the i r f r i en d s; -an d t h ey have the great body of the people to become indifferent res p e cting them, an d excee di ng ly s us pi c ious as to th e ho nesty of their i n t ent i ons . Th e f a t a l consequence o f thi s feeling on the part of the public is apathy respecting the Present administration and all which may succeed it, while °t r i nstitutions remain unaltered. And apathy among the People is destruction to a liberal Administration. I have s tated i n t hi s House before that the existence of any Adminis tration*o whi c h d ea l t i n comprom i se, an d w hi c h b y t hi s means Vic to k eep our i nst i tut i ons suc h as t h ey are , cou ld only be mai ntained by k ee pi ng t h e p eo pl e i n a s t a t e of con s t a nt excite snent• This th en I a dd uce d as a grea t ev il, an d I s till i ns i s t u p o n , my form er statement ; an d I co mpl a in no w , as I com oiained then, of the conduct of the Ministry. They have so u g ht to k eep t h e people exc i te d —not b y h ope, b ut b y f ear. hey have not told them what they ought to desire, but have !trained every nerve to point out an evil they ought to avoid. The great terror, the standing hobgoblin, by which they have wr ought upon popular fear, has been the return of the Tories its power. Th S instrument of exc i tement h as at l engt h l ost s P o wer The game of the Whigs has been played to the end, and failure and defeat now stare us in the face. The Ar ° l 3l e are no l onger terr ifi e d b y t h e cry o f " Th e T or i es e coming 1" They answer, " If they do come, what e ; vd Will follow? Our position under the Whig administra tion is no better than it was under the Tories, and if the latter 'illtrte into power we shall be no worse off than now. We, 6 r ough the inst rumen t a lity o f the Whigs, have for the last 'e years lived a lif e o f f ever i s h hope and fear. Our hopes havethat bee n bi tterly disappointe d ; we have begun to believe our fears were as idle as our hopes." Such is now the language of t h e peop l e ; an d t h e G ent l emen opposite who tar so eager f or power are thought to be strong because 'e e Liberals b ecome weak. They have not a greater hold upon the affections of the nation now than they had a fear Years since ; but the Whig Administration had lost its influ ence, and the cruel position of our Government is such that 11 . 0 Liberal Government can maintain its existence except du- If ; a state of popular enthusiasm towards liberal doctrines. It be asked why the people feel disappointed, I need only teint to three cases in which, amongst others, their hopes eve been cruelly disappointed. First, all hopes of justice to eland are at end—at least all hope of justice being peace ably rendered to that country has vanished ; second, all hope of Justice to the Dissenters of England has also gone to the same bourne ; and lastly, the unrepresented millions see no c hance of obtaining what they desire—a share in that Go vernment which decides upon their lives and fortunes. In ev er? one of th e se cases, which I have selected from a mass Y way of illustration, the cause of the people's disappoint ment is the same ; and that is, the course of compromise, e weak and dangerous trifling and tampering with prin. c ,,, 1 1 1 n , 10 , which the Government has followed and adopted. Th ey were told at lie outset of their career that this course Would fail, and that such dishonest dealing with principle would lead to defeat. Has not the event justified the pre diction tried on your knees to obtain justice for You h ave .. Irel an d your real principles have been cloaked, hidden, %huffier - Over. distorted, twisted ; degradation could not go further than I hare witnessed on the part. of the Ministerial advocates of justice for Ireland ; and what has been your re ward ? Contempt and scorn. What ought you to have done ? What you did not dare to do. You should have raised on high the banner of freedom for England and for Ireland. You should have boldly told the people of both countries justice could not be gained by either, while an irresponsible body of hereditary legislators could at will dispose of the fortunes and the happiness of the people. Did you do this? Never. But You did all you were able to bring contempt upon those who Pointed out the real seat of the mischief. You said you de sired to introduce responsibility into the local Government of Ireland—so far )ou maintained the democratic dogma. But You scornfully treated all who explained: to the people that ne reason of the failure of your attempt was tho irresponsibi gitY' of the House of Lords, and so far you, after the true v 'e-saw or Whig fashion, favoured the aristocratic doctrine. The Peopl e looked on—they began to grow angry with the hereditary band of legislators. A word from you—a hand lifted I. I P by one of the Ministerial leaders—is ould have created a " 141 7, which the Lords could not have withstood. But, then, hereditary privileges would have been in danger, and your or der would have suffered. Be it so—let us allow that your c onduct was natural. It is plain that you love those exclu sive privileges more than you love good Government for the pe ople. and th a t w h en t h e two t hi ngs come i nto co lli s i on you, I reality, side not with the people, but with their enemies. Let the world know this—be honest in the matter, and do not I P i f eteed to be Liberals with such feelings predominant. So w uch f or the way in which you dealt with a great principle, 1 2 1 fn the happiness of Ireland was concerned. Now, let us Tk at th e conduct you pursued when the great doctrines religious freedom were a t sta k e h ere i n E ng l an d. Th e "2. enters have petitioned this House to relieve them from a ". I mpost which, th e y t e ll us presses h ar d upon t h e i r con detenees—they t e ll us th a t t o ma i nta i n a Ch urc h f rom whose 4F t Fines they dissent is to them a grievous calamity—and the Ministry li sten to t h e i r complaints, and they immediately irtme the name of friends of the Dissenters and of religious "tY• How do they manifest this their devotion to te cause of religiou s freedom ? Do they come down to this House and ° ° PerdY avo w t h e d octr i nes upon wh i ch alone these i mposts i _ught t o b e abolished ? No ;* they assure all those who nai ntain the su p remacy o f t h e Ch urc h o f E ng l an d, an d w h o r that this proceeding as an attack upon that supremacy, they are among the warmest friends of all the exclusive P,rivileg es of the Church of England ; they say, also, that they are e nem i es of the voluntary system. T hus f ar t h ey o' t . xi ntain the d oc t r i nes o f re li g i ous tyranny . B u t, on t h e !tiler hand, on the see-saw principle, they bring forward a u leasure the tendency of which is to support and advance the vtoluntary principle, and which can be properly supported only I .Yao appeal to that principle ; so far they are friends to re iglous liberty. The consequence of this proceeding has been defe a t in this House—ignominious defeat, and disgust out of doors, The people are disheartened when led by such men, W!.ose principles they cannot understand, and whose honesty, consequently, they begin seriously to doubt. Their conduct concerning the franchise, and the reforms yet necessary in this blouse has been in the same way marked by a constant wa irtg between opposite opinions. To the Ballot the Minis try have constantly shown an inveterate hostility ; to every at tempt to enlarge the suffrage they have also set themselves in opposition ; and even now I am hardly certain whether the Noble Lord is really intent on curtailing the mischi evous effects of the rate-paying clauses of the Reform 13i11.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It is said that the people are not pre- Pared in many matters for the true liberal doctrines, and that if we hope to attain our ends we must keep those doe. trine s in the back ground ; and I often hear it asserted that the extension of the suffrage is not popular; and then I hear Larangues like the following ;—" Do not shock the feelings of ~ 1 e peopl e b y t oo open an avowa l o f your d octr i nes . You must advance step by step. You must not give to babes the food of roe T , n• Do not em b arrass t h e Mi n i stry by impracticable pro -141411, or foolish enthusiasm—let us gain as much as we can, call each advance aids us in going onward." This language I dishonest ; furthermore, it is exceedingly foolish. All ;▪ toi time you suppos e you r opponents blind or foolish—in fact, 3 , 1 „ ° 1 1 cane) , that what you all see plainly they cannot di s c er n. Is tit this supremely ridiculous ? What I are we to suppose that v ' e Right Hon. B arone t o pp os it e i s n ot o shrewd as we ? Do ' lt o n believe that he and his party, here and elsewhere, do not, e :Pl'inlY as we can, understand all the consequences of this pro ;; they be silent—that they and do you believe that • not tell the world what they conceive to be the inevitable ten se i t ( Nonce of any measure you propose ? Have they not done te t d Have they not accuse d y o u o f hypocrisy, of pretended erness of eonscience—and have you not winced under 4„ . _ accusation for you had no answer to make. I am met, • r iver, with t h e assertion, that we cannot carry our mea could e s if we avow o ur p r i nc ipl es ." H a d I no other answer I r th ou LIAY, it is proved that you cannot carry yours, even to rtl c," You should di s i ngenuous l y en d eavour to hid e and dis ta-n " lee k But my rea l answer i s , if y ou can not honestly st arit p Y o ur end, f orego i t. B e content to wa i t t ill th e people ~.14br:pared to admit your principles ; labour to convert them to " t t ."' to prove y our d octr i nes w i se an d j us t, b u t never seek said to I ,_n Your o bj ect b y di s h onest su bt er f uge . I s h a ll be ni l vi Have unwisely laid bare before an unprepared people tru t h errs and intentions. My answer is, that. I have told the gr eat The weapons by which we can advance and defend the *t our c ause of freedom must be taken from the bright ar as,„Zof truth, and we, like our predecessors in this mighty seei". le n t , must watch with religious caution that by no unworthy th e i we cast a shade upon their lustre, or dull the sharpness of 4 ttaj n e i d ge. We must wait patiently till we can by honest means t . he p eo Ze" . t . ends, and . not hope or seek by wily artifice to lead 411 to acts which they would not perform did they clearly e ase the conseq uences that must flow f rom t h em . One ex- The pail be, and often is, put forward to palliate this conduct. y of the Tories, it is said, are so unscrupulous, that to meet them with any chance of success you must adopt unfair weapons also. I grant the first assertion, but utterly refuse my assent to the conclusion drawn from it. I allow that the Tories have been unscrupulous in their conduct both in . this House and out of it. I all o w that for the purpose of ga teng an election, or of bringing the Liberal party into discredit with the people, they have never scrupled to assert what tl ey well knew to.lee false, so that it served their turn. It is true that they, knowing such accusations to be untrue, have accused the Ministry of being enemies to all religion, and in the next breath have declared that they sought to set up Popery. They have endeavoured to persuade the people that they, the Mi nistry, desired to pull down the churches, or convert them into prisons or stables. Unfortunately this sort of conduct is not confined to the Tories; would that it were I I remember when I was opposed to a Whig candidate, that the very same accusation was brought against myself. Be it remembered that the Tory party represents the sinister interests of this country. Every one that desires to live on public plunder--every one that desires to preserve unjust privi leges, or irresponsible po w er— a ll who oppress the weak, the poor, and the humble—all who seek to maintain ignorance and prejudice among the people, every quack in religion or polities, every one who desires to curtail the power of the many, and to increase the power and immunities of the few, are banded together, and form what is called the Tory party. Now, what does it matter to men with these ends what means they use ? Every falsehood propagated, every popular error maintained, is so much in their favour. The errors and the ignorance of the people have allowed these sinister interests hitherto to flourish ; by error and by ignorance alone can they continue. Therefore, every means which tends to main tain and increase ignorance is to them legitimate. Bet to the Liberal cause, ignorance on the part of the people is fatal ; you seek to give the people power, to make their servants re sponsible. This cannot be accomplished but by spreading knowledge among them—by the propagation of truth. Pur sue the courses of those opposite, and you will shortly see fasehood triumphant, and your enemies in the ascendant. ( Cries of " hear, hear," and cheers. )—Some there are, how ever, who say that the people are not prepared for the truth. This estimate of their feelings I believe to be utterly false. In the present constitution of the Legislature, a liberal Government cannot be maintained iii power, unless the people be enthusiastic in their favour. To create this necessary and generous enthusiasm, a bold and determined course is needed. Show the people something to strive for—place before their eyes a prize worth their attainment, and you will quickly have at your command a force which will overawe all opposition. You must not, however, deal with great questions after the fashion of your Church-rate policy, or that shown by you re specting the Church of Ireland—or as you have hitherto done in all that relates to the improvement of this House. For my self, in no circumstances do I despair of the fortunes of the liberal cause; neither do I permit myself to be blinded as to the dangers which that cause has to encounter. A time cf trial is coming ; and upon the determination of the present Government it depends, whether we shall fight the battle aided by an enthusiastic people, and a majority in this House—or have to stand the encounter in Opposition and in a minority, and with a people disheartened and disgusted. Li other cases I do not despair of victory ; but it must be evident to every one that the labours and the dangers of the encounter will differ much in the different circumstance I have described. Without circumlocution, then, Sir, I will state (what every one knows to be true), that the present Ministry will cease to be a Ministry in a few weeks, if the people remain in their present apathetic condition. The Gentlemen opposite are strong, not because the public s3m pathise with them, and because they are indifferent as re gards us. They (the people) have learned to feel, that little or no difference to them results from the existence of a so called Liberal or a Tory Administration. This house, there fore, unchecked and unimpelled from without, follows the natural bent of its inclination, and that is rather to the Tory than the Liberal side of politics. Every day increases the indifference of the people ; every day, therefore, strengthens the opposite party here. But a few weeks will elapse before their minority of five is ill have swelled to a majority, and then those hopes which are so plainly evinced in the eager eyes of Gentlemen opposite will be fulfilled, and they will be introduced to the cares and to the emoluments of office. Now, the question is, can this be prevented? My belief is that it may. To the Ministry two courses are open—they may yield to their fate and quietly sink into obscurity ; or, acknowledging the error of their peat plans, they may dis card the Whig doctrines of compromise, assume a bolder tone, come forward with an effective reform of the Reform Act, thus inspirit and enlist the .masses into their ranks, and put down their opponents by the aid of the enthusiasm of an expectant people. The timid, the irresolute, and the dishonest will say that this is a visionary scheme—they will say, as they have said, that the apathy and indifference of the people have resulted from their dislike to change, and from the belief that Ministees have already gone too far. I know this is a favourite doctrine, and no persons have been so sedulous in the propagation of it as the Ministers and their immediate adherents. The doctrine has been ap plied as a battery against their Radical supporters. The Ministry, and more especially that section of them which is publicly believed to lean to Toryism, have on all occasions been eager to express contempt as well as hatred for the opinions and the characters of their Radical supporters. The millions of this country, I mean the unrepresented mil lions, have no confidence in the honesty of Ministers, and this doubt has been created and fostered by the whole tenour of their conduct respecting the demands of the unrepresented masses. On all occasions they have been repudiated with scorn and openly avowed disgust. Thus while on e l arge section of the people h ave been rendered indifferent anos ther, still more numerous, have been made active enemies. This has been the effect of your doctrine respecting going too far.—( Hear, hear.) Whatever may be the confidence of Ministers in their own opinions, or their doubts respecting what I now advance, this much is certain —back they cannot go ; if they stand still they are ruined ; their only chance of success is by going forward. If they will heartily and cordially co-operate with the Radical party they may again have the support of an enthusiastic people, may retain their present position as leaders of the Liberal cause, and run a brilliant as well as useful career. This charge may be made with ease, and without injury to their character as honest politicians. The headlong obstinacy of the Tory party here, and in the House of Lords, their signal and loudly declared contempt of the popular demands, their refusal to be parties to any compromise, compel you, as friends of the people, to pursue a new conduct, to adopt as stern and un yielding a principle as their own—and since they will not yield to the mild remonstrance and requests of the people, you must now demand as a right, not to be refused, what you have hitherto sought as a favour. And now, as an earnest of a new course of conduct, and a commencement thereof, I would in treat the Noble Lord solemnly to consider his position,- and grant the inquiry. He may soon, if he pursue this course, contemn the taunts and threats of his opponents, secure in the love and respect of the nation. Brat if he should determine not to adopt this plan, then his Ministerial reign will be quickly over, and he and his friends will be thrown aside as tools worn out and useless, and he and they will very soon be utterly for gotten. In the present state of parties in this House and of the Government the whole machinery of legislation is at a dead stop. I, therefore, sir, ask the [louse to resolve itself into a Committee, for the purpose of taking into consideration the state of the nation. Col. THOM PSON seconded the amendment. Dr. L US HINGTO N spoke to the following effect :—Sir, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman claims for himself the merit of an extraordinary attachment to the principles of liberty and of liberal Government. Sir, I will not yield to him or to any man in that attachment ; but experience has shown me that the cause o f lib erty and of liberal Government is more prac tically advanced by other means than by loud professions of attachment to that cause, while the Hon. and Lsarned Mem m ber ee principlesaa s r u n e r e d t Gentlemanl which e t tendency d h e t e c r pretends has t at the sam e ti me i mpugns and endeavours to destroy every which thought L js thold is Ir t ,oi o pseor carry dear.to p i n u to effect the very put into the e n einuo,uatthi and of his Majesty's Government when they came into office decla rations of th e vas t econom i cal and other reforms, of their determination to do justice to Ireland, &c. &c. .Sir, I do not remember that when they came into power they made any such extensive pledges. I d u remem b er t h at t h ere was a o d u o e pt p i o n i g nto on which they insi s t e d— name l y, t h e propr i ety o f certain measures respecting Ireland. The Hon. and Learned Member says, " You cannot du justice to Ireland, your power as a Government is effete, and you can do no thing to benefit the people of Ireland." Sir, the proper answer to such an assertion is an appeal to the feelings of the people of Ireland with reference to his Majesty's pre sent Government. Have the people of Ireland complained e oft o li t e ry c ? ond ia conduct of theo fhis Majesty's present Government t o th a t y e o u i n e intendedlinatipeople of Ireland said to his M a jesty's Government," Y ou came i nto off i ce full of professions of what or at th t o a do s t he onbef.oern wanting,lreland y eitherou havetl the power done nothing fo r us ?" Onh of their. gratitude for declarations of bodic e o s nt f rary, have we not seen nu merouswntdihmet ex pressivepheiosplAelajoefstylr,:lapnrdesent t ve i r t nm w e o n u t ld ha b v e e done for clorenrldauci've to the interests and that and of their conviction benefit of that country that that Government power ? How, therefore, can th e Hon. andis,lerouruld remain in Learned Member g for Bath say that Ireland has deri ve d no advantage from the present Government, when it i s ev id ent t h at the ver f er is the truth? So much, Sir, f o r I re l an d. What myorreevdeorsees the Hon. and Learned Gentleman say ? " Mark what you have done ; or rather wh a t y ou h ave neg l ected to do. You have not had the courage to come forward like men, and effect the overthrow of the Church of England, and therefore you are deprived of the aid and support of a great majority of the people of England." Now, in the first place, if his Majesty's Ministers had come forward with any proposition the effect of which was to overthrow the Church of England, although backed by the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath, they would most unqueasionably have found themselves in a miserable mi nority, both in this [louse and in the country. The opinion on the subject which the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath alone entertains (for although he uses the pronoun " we," I am convinced that he does not speak the sentiments of any man in the House but himself), is one which I have no hesitation in declaring I never could, under any circumstances, be induced to adopt. I never could consent to any measure the object of which was the destruction of the Church of England. I tell the Hon. and Learned Member-- and I defy him to contra dict me—that among the whole of the Dissenters of England, from those who are the furthest removed in doctrine from the Church of England, to those who most l near y approximate to that doctrine—from the Unitarians down to the I d ndepen ents— there is scarcely an exception, there is not one in 658, the mi nority in which I am persuaded the Hon. and Learned Mem ber for Beth is on this point ; there is, in fact, perfect unani mity in favour of the measure of his Majesty's Government, and a perfect willingness to receive it as a measure satisfac tory to the most scrupulous conscience, and giving the Dis senters all they ask, wish, or require. Again, the lion. and Learned Member fur Bath seems to consider it to be the duty of his Majesty's Government to drive on such messeures as may lead to a collision between this House and the House of Lords. Now, on that point I differ from the Hon. and Learned Member in toto. If, after a long series of measures, and after the people of England have unequivocally showed their appro bation of such measures, they should continue to be r.jected by the House of Lords; and if, after ample time and consi deration, it should appear to be impossible that the present constitution of the House of Lords could continue compatibly with the welfare of the kingdom, and that something must be done to remedy the evil, I am not one to say that that some thing ought not to be done. But, Sir, lam desirous of going on by degrees ; I am desirous of avoiding such a proceeding until the last moment ; I am desirous of avoiding it until it ap pears to be a matter of unavoidable necessity, called for by the unanimous, or almost the unanimous, voice of the people. But what is the course advised by the lion. and Leartied Member for Bath ? What is the nostrum which he recom. mends to his Majesty's Government, to enable them to re gain the confidence of the people of England? To go to the utmost extent of his own theoretical notions ; without the slightest regard to evils which might flow from such a proceed ing. Sir, I have had much experience in this House and I have always found that the men who in the commencement of their career professed the most, that the men who boasted most of their singular and extraordinary zeal, that the men who as sumed the possession of peculiar correctness of conduct, that the men who treated with contempt the efforts of those who were engaged in the same cause as themselves,—l have always found that in the end such men proved the weakest supporters, nay, the bitterest enemies, of the very principles of which they considered themselves the warmest friends. Colonel THOMPSON observed that the Hon. and Learned Civilian seemed to think that his Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for Bath was alone in his opinions ; that he was like the fat soldier who, on being questioned who he was, re plied that he was the skeleton of the 102 d regimen to" foot..— (A laugh.) Now, that was not the case. He (Colonel Thompson) was sure that he only expressed the sentiments of his Hon. and Learned Friend when lie stated that the com plaint made by his Hon. and Learned Friend and himself—if he were addressing the House in Greek he would use the dual number—that his Majesty's Government bad by their conduct let down themselves and those who had been disposed to sup port them. Their measures came out dribble, dribble, dribble; and if any change which might occur in the chapter of acci dents should keep them in their places, their measures would still come out dribble, dribble, dribble. Mr. O'CONNELL was at a loss to know whether the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down was serious or not. He made one allusion—that of letting out the fire lest the steam should burst the vessel, which all who had heard of a recent dreadful calamity must agree in thinking the Hon. Meather for Hull ought especially to have abstained from. ad the Hon. and Gallant Member for Hull wish that the steam should be kept up till an explosion took place, from which calamities more disastrous than those which had oc curred at Hull should follow? He learned, with regret, that the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath forgot all those evils which his Majesty's Government of the present day had pre vented in Ireland. Did the Hon. and Learned Gentleman really and seriously wish to see the Tories in power--that party which for centuries had misgoverned Ireland ? He wished him to confine himself to the state of Ireland. His Majesty's Government had directed their attention to the cause of Ireland; and for the first time they had a Govern ment which regulated their patronage by a sense of the real merits of individuals. There had been two appointments of gen tlemen as King's Counsel who were not of the party of the King's Government, but who, on the contrary, were opposed to it. The gentlemen who had been appointed King's Counsel were Mr. Blake and Mr. Collins, and the appointments had been made within the last few weeks. None could be more just. Would the Tories have done this to those who were in the ranks of their enemies ? Was such a thing ever done by that Tory Government whom the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath would support ? The present Government, however, had done this, and they had given to the people of Ireland an opportunity of showing the readiness of the people of Ireland to support his Majesty's Government, who, although they were not able to do all they wished for Ireland, yet showed the disposition to maintain the due execution of the law. The people of Ireland were most ready to give up their most fe vourite objects to give the present Government the means of carrying out a variety of great public measures which they had in view. Had not the present Government passed the Bill for the regulation of Municipal Corporations in Ireland, which they had sent up to the House of Lords?—(Hear, hear, hear.) And was the Government to be blamed for not doing more, when these great measures were denied to them because they were the people of Ireland, and because the Tory faction were delighted to report the sar castic expressions of the Honourable and Leaned Member for Bath? The Honourable and Learned Member for Bath blamed the Government for not being stronger ; and with equal reason might Sangrado, who was always bleeding his patients, blame them for not being stronger. He felt it his duty, in the name of the people of Ireland, to protest agaiast his Majesty's Government being blamed for not doing more. Mr. HUME hoped it would lon g be the privilege of that House, that those who entertained opinions different from others should be at liberty to express them fearlessly. His Honourable and Learned Friend had said that the Honour abble Member for Bath accused the Ministry of being weak, and that he likened him to that practitioner of old who, whilst taking blood from his luckless patients, blamed them for not getting stronger, Though be (Mr. Hume) did not feel the justness of the application of this simile, yet he agreed in many of the statements of his Honourable Friend, whilst he differed from him in many others. His Hon. Friend, the Member for Bath, never said that he wished to see the To ries in power. lie stated that the Ministry at the commence ment of their career promised to support certain public nice surest, and to carry out those general principles upon which they received the support of thous who sat on that (the Mi nisterial) side, and that the people out of doors complained that they had not done so. He (Mr. Hume) contended that they had not done so. He thought that they had not taken those measures which the Reform Bill requised. Then, his Hon. Friend had argued, that by not supporting the measure for triennial Parliaments they had not carried into effect the intentions of those who advocated the Reform Bill, and had thereby lost many of their friends. Aud in this view of the case, he (Mr. flume) concurred. He ( Mr. Hume) could not shut his eyes to the fact that there were 300 in that House opposed to his Majesty's Government. He knew that his Majesty's Ministers did everything in their power to secure popular rights, but as often as they did so their efforts were met by a negative. With reference to the Church-rates Bill, if it were again frustrated elsewhere, still, hrving passed that House, they owed a great meed of praise to the Government fiir havingg e brought forward that measure, a measure which went to put an end to that state of degradation to which the Dissenters were exposed, to support a religion in which they did , not concur. He did not believe that Isis Majesty's Go vernment ever advocated the voluntary principle; and he was glad to find that they did not intend to do so. He denied the allegation repeatedly made, that the Church rates regulation measure did not give satisfaction to the Disseuters. He was quite sure that his Hon. and Learned Friend was not the person to deny every merit to his Majesty's Government for having brought forward and carried the English Municipal Corporations Bill, and for having sent the Irish 3limicipal Bill up to the Lords. Again, with reference to Ireland, he rejoiced in the appointment of the Earl of Mulgrave as Lord. Lieutenant of Ireland.—(Cries of " Hear.") He believed that the Government would be strengthened every day by strengthening the Reform Bill, in giving protection to every voter in the exercise of his franchise by the Ballot. He ad mitted that the majorities in that House had decreased ; but the reverse would have been the case, if the Government had pursued a course more in consonance with the great principles of the Reform Bill. With reference to the Tories, he did not believe that the country would bear with a Tory Government. He wished to see the House of Lords bombarded with good measures. He hoped his Majesty's Government would not disregard the truths which had been told them. Lord J. RUSSELL trusted he might be permitted to put in a few words in the way of excuse, or palliation, or, it might b', justification, as to the delay which had occurred in the pro gress of the business of the House. The fact was, that some times one and sometimes another lion. Gentleman had notices ' on the books, and they were heard till they had occupied two or three dozen evenings, which were fixed for the discussion of various measures ; and having so occupied the time of the House, these Hon. Gentlemen then joined in chorus, and said, ‘‘ \Vhat a shameful thing it is that this or that measure is not pressed ! \Vhat a dreadful delay there is is the public business I We are already arrived at the month of June, and those measures of the Government which are deemed to be most necessary are not yet passed !" Now, he might say with regard to the particular course which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had adopted that night, if he were to use that lien. Gentleman's phraseology, that his course was a dishonest one, in pretending to do one thing whilst he was doing another. That was the very charitable interpretation which he put on the course of his Majesty's Government, and he had questioned the motives of their actions. In the whole speech, however, of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, he never got a cheer but from those whom he himself represented to be the greatest enemies of public liberty. Then he (Lord John Russell) said, if he were to impute motives to others as rashly as the Hon. Member for Bath did, he should say that his course of pro ceeding, while he pretended to aid the cause of public li berty, was to endeavour to obstruct the course of those who were endeavouring to work out every possible good, .and to oppose something which was impracticable and impossible, and by su c h mea ns to aid his own cause, and to bring about a policy less favourable to the public liberty than that which was now adopted. He, however, attributed no such motives to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ; and he begged, with all humility, as an older Member, if not an older soldier, to assure him, that persons who entertained dif ferent sentiments, whether they were those of the extreme of democracy, ultra-Toryism, or moderate Whigism or Toryism did hon es tly ma i nta i n those opinions. All did that which they thought best for the public good ; and it tended not to the preservation of good t em p er i n t h at H ouse to t h row out mo tives of hypocrisy—of the attempt to do one thing, whilst they did another. U n l ess th e H on. Gentleman wished t h ese imputations of motives to be retorted upon himself, it would be much better that h e s h ou ld re f rain from them' —( Hear, hear.) Buc he must b e p erm i tte d to touch upon two . or three topics on which the accusations of the Hon. Gentleman rested. He said that the course pursued by his Majesty's Government was of no effect—that it ended in their doing nothing for the public good. He would mention a subject to which the Hon. Member had adverted that night, he meant the ques tion with respect to Ireland. He must declare that, in his opinion, whatever it might be proper to do in respect to England, either as to legislation or the administration of her laws, still this evils of Ireland were far more deeply rooted, and that some attention was necessary both on the part of the Legislature and the Administration, to act wisely and ge ne .Jusly towards Ireland, than to inn oduce improvements which might vet be wanting in England. He did say that if they utterly failed for Ireland—if their Adrnin istration were weak, ineff,Ttive, tyrannical, or remiss—if tb ey had not suc ceeded, or could not succeed, in establishing those principles of legislation which they thought ought to he established to wards Ireland—then indeed they had failed in the main pur poses of the Government of the United Kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to Ireland he would ask, did they stand in that position? Had the people of Ireland called for their dismissal—had they asked that his Majesty should accept their resignations? Was not the opinion of the people of Ireland, or of the greatest portion of them, at least, favourable to the present administration of affairs in that country? But there were opponents to that administration ! There were, no doubt, opponents to that administration, who would not have refrained from bringing charges of great weight, if they could be substantiated, as to the conduct of the G overnment. Thee with respect to the legislative measure which they were about to have laid before the House that night, that Bill un fortunately had long been a subject of discussion in Parlia ment, and a subject of difference in that House and between the two Houses of Parliament. There was likewise a Bill of great importance, to which that House had given a patient and laborious attention, with respect to the introduction of Poor-laws into Ireland; in regard to which, as far as it had gone into Committee, the Howe had agreed to it, end had in vestigated it most diligently. There was another measure which they bad passed for Ireland, and which had gone up to the other House, namely, the Municipal Corporations (Ire land) Bill. He need not go into the nature of that measure ; but he did not think that a Government which had brought forward the Municipal Corporations Bill, which had been passed by that House by large nujoritiee—the Poor-law. Bill, the Bill for the settlement of the Tithe question, and the better regulation of ecclesiastical revenues in Ireland, could be said to a Government which had been remiss in their duty. Bat then the Hon. and Learned Gentle man said that these measures led to nothing; but he thought the Hon. Gentleman was premature in this his prophecy. His (Lord J. Russell's) opinion was, that upon subjects of this im portance (however much he might disapprove of the course taken by the other House of Parliament)—he did not think there was a disposition in the other House to refuse to consider seriously these measures, with a view to the settlement of the subjects to which they referred. They maintained, indeed, that all these measures should be taken together. That was not his (Lord John Russell's) view of the Caw; but he could conceive that that view might be taken of the question ; and he would still contend that the House of Commons ought to pass all the Bills then before them in the best form they could and to send them up to the other House, leaving their Lord ships to deliberate upon them. He saw no cause to despair, or to imagine that they should not be able to come to some agreement on these matters. He did not agree with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that the term " irresponsible body" was to be applied to the House of Lords. His opinion was that they waited for and did feel that they were personally acting in the face of public opinion, and that if they should be persuaded that the great mass of public opinion was increasing in favour (as he thought it would be) of a course of justice to Ireland, they wo u ld yield to the force of public opinion. He was sa tisfied that the House of Lords would feel the weight of their responsibility by adopting a contrary course, and they would never wish to engage in an attempt to thwart that opinion. If he (Lord J. Russell) did not entertain that expectation, he must come to such opinions as the Hon. and Learned Mem ber (Mr. Roebuck) entertained—he must come to the opinion that the (louse of Commons ought not to agree to any amend ment or to any measure proposed by the House of Lords— (Hear)—he roust came to the opinion that the object of the House of Commons ought to be to ruin the House of Lords in public estimation, and to establish some elective body in its stead. Those, lie believed, were the objects at which the Hon. and Learned Member aimed. Mr. ROE BUCK—I do not wish to substitute an elective body for the existing House of Lords—l wish to abolish that body altogether.—(Laughter.) Lord.l - 01IN RUSSELL—To abolish the House of Lerds altogether. He begged the Hon. and Learned Gentle man's pardon for having so far misinterpreted him.--( Hear.) He was not precisely aware of the exact opinion which the llon. and Learned Gentleman entertained upon that particular point. He thanked the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, there fore, for the interruption, and fur the candour with which he expressed his opinion. But he (Lord John Russell) must de clare as frankly, that he as totally disagreed from the propo sition to abolish the House of Lords altogether, as he did from the proposition to make them an elective body.—( Hear, hear.) He did not look upon the abolition of the (louse of Lords as the millenium they were to reach.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to Church-rates and some other measures, the Hon. and Learned Member seemed to think that the Govern ment had not done enough to conciliate the Dissenters, and that with the view of securing the affections of the people the Government ought to have opted the voluntary princi pprleilcip . 1 --( ie ll__ :, e7, hear.) Upon that point he (Lard J. Russell) must decla re that his opinion was not in favour of the voluntary Cheers)—and further, that if the adoption of the voluntary principle were necessary to conciliate the favour of the public, he for one should not be prepared to adopt it.— (Cheers.) But lie totally disagreed with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that such a course was necessary to conciliate the opinion of the people of this country.--( Hear, hear.) His lislief was that the people of England were in favour of the Established Church, arid not in favour of the voluntary prin. eiple.—(Cheers.) His opinion likewise was that the Dls senters were generally satisfied with the measure introduced upon the subject of Church-rates.—(Hear, hear.) The I Hon. and Learned Gentleman charged the Government, in the first place, with not going far enough, and then endea voured to cast ridicule upon them fur the smallness of their majorities; but did not the Hen. and Learned Gentleman see that the two reproaches were quite inconsistent with each other? As the House was then composed, if they proposed measures that would satisfy the Dissenters, their m ijorities were small : to secure large majorities, which, according to the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, ought to be the first duty of a Government, they must propose measures which would not be so agreeable to the Dissenters. He might mention, however, that the majority of five would have been a majority of six, had it nut been fur the Hon. and Gallant Odi cer the seconder of the present proposition, who took that op portunity to be absent from his place. The view which he ( Lord John Russell) took of the ditty of a Govern ment was this : that they ought to bring forward such mea sures as they thought calculated to benefit the country—that having proposed them to Parliament, they should rely upon the support which they might receive from the Legislature and from the opinion of the public.—( Hear, hear.) Such had been the course pursued by the present Government.—( Hear. ) I will take the liberty of mentioning to the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, that during the time that we have sat on this side of the House, amid more especially within the last few years, we have carried a repeal of the Test and Corpora tion Acts—( Hear, hear) —which drew a degrading distinction between Dissenters and members of the Established Church. ( Ilear, hear.) I would remind him that we have carried the Reform Act. I would remind him that we have passed the Poor-law Amendment Act.—(Hear, hear, hear.) I would • remind him further, that we have carried a measure for the ' reform of Municipal Corporations—( Hear, hear, hear)—ano ther for the commutation, of tithes in England ; and an Act for the total and entire abolition of negro slavery.—(Great cheering.) So much fur matters of explanation. With re spect to administration, I will not now go into details to show that as rsgards expenditure and taxation we have fully kept up to the promise of retrenchment male by Lord Grey when he took office.—( Hear.) It is a glory upon which I shall always pride myself, that I have acted first with Lord Grey, and since with Lord Melbourne, in carrying these important measures— ( clear)—and if some other measures, partaking of the same character, have not yet reached their consummation, I do not see that that circumstance justifies the censure of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, when it is remembered that two thirds only of the Session have yet been gone through, and that many of these measures are rapidly advancing towards completion.—( Hear.) Ido not think it justifies the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, who has never done anything for the country—(Cheers)—who has never carried any Act, nor, as far as I know, proposed any measure by which the liberties or in terests of this country might be promoted--(Checrs)—l say I do not think it becomes him to come forward now and abuse us, so little of his own performance to place in the ba lance against ours—( Renewed cheering)—to make- himself the accuser, and, with bitter and ironical sarcasm, seem to be aiding the cause of liberty, while, in fact, his reproaches, if they had any effect at all, could have no effect but this—to i m inz a eg r fos t rt h imi e l,l c vu a an l s r m de and steady progress of Reform, and, by snaking men despair o f t h at ca l m an d stea d y progress, i nduce them to go back, I w ill not say to retroceseion, but to a positive stand ing that those who have always the guidance dangerous, t they would earryi' tn s said no sfur ther.—_( Cheers.) After a few words from Mr. S. CR. AWFO RD, which were not audible, The question was put, and the motion negatived without a division. TILE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, JUNE 10, .1837. TITHES (IRELAND) BILL. Lord MO RPETH moved the second reading of this Bill. Mr. Sl' A RM AN CR A WFOR D immediately rose, and proceeded to address the House at considerable length, but his voice was scarcely heard above the loud tone of conversa tion indulged in by the rest of the House. In opposing the second reading of the Bill he was acting conscientiously, and from a deep sense of duty, and not from any desire to impede the measure of his Majesty's Government, whose great services to Ireland he most readily acknoWledged. He begged to move as an amendment that this Bill be read a second time this day six months. Mr. D. 131Z0 WNE felt that it was a duty he owed to him self and to his country to second the amendment of his Hon. Hon. Friend. He considered that the Bill, instead of reliev ing the people of Ireland from an unjust impost, tended to rivet that impost upon them, and to increase discontent and promote agitation in that country. He might be asked why he opposed this Bill, when he did not oppose the Bill of last session. His answer was, that he considered the omis sion of the app ropr i at i on c l ause in the present Bill t o ma k e it essentially a different measure from the Bill of last year. He might be told that in the money provisions of the Bill now before them there was an equivalent for the appropria tion clause ; but having considered these clauses well, he certainly could not find any thing in them equivalent to the principle of the appropriation clause. The lion. Gentleman concluded by declaring that he was opposed to the tithe system, because, as a Christian, he conceived that it could not be defended upon any human or divine principle. Viscount MORPETH said it was obvious that the Bills which the present Government had successively introduced upon the subject of the Irish Church hal had to stand between two classes of objections—between the objections of those who thought that too much was taken from the Church, and of those who thought that too little was taken away, or, at least, that too much was left. It was obvious—without stopping to inquire which of these respective parties were most in the right—whether those who thought that too much was tarn away, or those who thought that too little was taken ; or whether it was for the Government, at least upon this subject, to indulge itself in the opinion that it had happily pursued the " just middle"—it was obvious, he said, that the struggle on this question was not between the Government and the friends of the voluntary system, or the " sons of liberty," which, it seemed, was the right way to term them, but be tween the Government and those who were entirely op posed to any alteration of the Church Revenues. For this struggle, probably, before very long, the stag e would be cleared, and a d ec id e d course taken. For th at occasion. whenever it should arise, he thought himself justified in reserv. ing the discussion of those points which appeared to be the serious and really practical part of the matter they were called upon to consider. With respect, then, to the other side of the question—that which was represented on this occasion by hi s two Hon. Friends, the mover and seconder of the amendment, and which rested, as it appeared to him, upon the ground that tithes ought to be completely abolished, that no form of r di gion in Ireland ought to receive a preference from the State,. and that the voluntary system ought to be established—he had only to observe, that whether that system possessed any merits or not, or whether the arguments by which it was defended were sound or not, such were not the views and intentions with which his Nlajesty's present Government had entered upon office.. His Hon. Friend the Member for Dundalk had ob jected to this Bill on the ground that it was not the same Bill which he had previously supported. lie (Lord Morpeth) ad mitted it was not the same Bill. He should have been very glad if the Legislature bad passed any one of those previous Bills. His Honourable Friend must be perfectly aware that it was not the fault of the Government that none of those Bills were carried into a law. His Hon. Friend made two objections to the Bill in its present cha racter—first, that the clauses now introduced would not be so efficient to prevent sinecures in the Church as the former Bill; and also that under the present Bill the farmers of some dis tricts would feel a grivance in having money taken out of their pockets to benefit those in other places. He contended, how ever, that the object of the Bill was to prevent sinecure livings, and it would attain that object by promoting a better appor tioning of Church property. The lion. Member for Dundalk said that it was a hardship on the clergy to impose a tax of 10 per cent. on the present incumbents ; but he ( Lord Morpeth ) could not help feeling that his Honourable Friend was a little inconsistent. His Honourable Friend said he was in favour of the voluntary principle, but he would not be able to carry that principle into effect at once; and this was to be effected by the abolition of tithes.—( Hear, hear.) His Honourable Friend out of doors stated that he would attain that end by not bringing in any measure for the settlement of the tithe question, and to be consistent he had proposed that the Bill should be read a second time that day six months. He (Lord Morpeth), however, did not think that this would be consistent with the interests of religion, not merely the Protestant or Catholic religion, but that religion which taught peace on earth and good-will towards men, and which was so necessary for the well-being of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) In what he had already stated he believed he had sufficiently ex plained the objects the present opposition to the measure had in view. Mr. SHAW admitted that it was desirable that there should be a transfer of the payment of tith,'s from the occupiers to the owners of land ; but he thought that it was too much to take 30 per cent, from the Clergy for the additional security they would obtain under the altered arrangement. This, however, was rather a matter of detail than principle. That part of the Bill, however, which opened all commutations of tithes that had been entered on during the last thirty years, was most ob jectionable, as it would lead to the most expensive, and indeed endless, litigation. fie also thought that it was an act of great injustice to the Irish Clergy to make them pay the loan of a million and the arrears of interest which were proposed in this Bill ; for the money was given to them with the sanc tion of the House, in lieu of the tithes. Ile also objected to the Commissioners being enabled to reduce the value of bene fices below 300/. per annum. Lord STANLEY would shortly state to the House three points to which he objected, at the same time he must admit that there were ni-my parts of the Bill with which he agreed, and upon which, if no other Member did so, he intended to take the sense of the House at a future stage of the Bill. Many of the clauses in the Bill embodied the principles con tained in the Tithe Bill introduced by Lord Grey's Govern ment, and which he admitted to be leading principles in the Bill, and which would tend, in his opinion, to the maintenance and the stability Gf the Church of Ireland ; and because it was calculated to have that effect, the Hon. Member for Dun dalk opposed this part of the Bill, and he (Lord Stanley) not less honestly supported it. There had been that night a great alteration in the tone of his Majesty'. Government on this subject, and in some degree, at least to him, an unexpected change; but he congratulated the House on this altered tone, and on the changed manner in which his Majesty's Govern ment treated some of the most essential principles of the Bill.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) lie congratulated the House on no change more than in the one of the Noble Lord who, on a former occasion, spoke of the rottenness of the church' in Ireland ; and the either Noble Lord who talked of the Protestants of Ireland as a miserable monopolising mino rity.—( Renewed cheers.) He had that night been much gra tified in hearing the Noble Lord speak of the power and res pectability of this minority, and he alluded to their superior wealth and talents—( Hear)—and he was also much gratified to hear his Noble Friend the Secretary for Ireland, who sprle of the rottenness of the Church when he brought forward the measure now state that he did so, because he sincerely be lieved that it woul,l tend to the maintenance and security of the Established Church in Ireland. If, on every occasion, those Noble Lords adopted this tone, and acted on the pi in ciple implied in it, they might rely on the support of that (the Oppositiun) side of the House, which he was sure his Majesty's Government was not indisposed to value. But while by this Bill they professed to maintain and support the Established Church, he found provisions in it directly adverse with their declarations. He found provisions in it which tended to subvert and destroy the Church in Ireland ; and he ( Lord Stanley) would at once with fairnes s an d can d our declare, that he was determined to oppose. to the utmost those parts of the Bill. —( Cheers.) He might be asked why, with such strong objections to many parts of the Bill, he in tended to vote for the second reading ? In the first place, he did not pretend to be satisfied with the present state of 1 Church property in Ireland. He was ai.xious to come to a I speedy settlement of the tithe question, so as to prevent the clergy being brought into constant contact and collision with the large portion of the Catholic population in Ireland.— (Cheers.) He would not consent to take from the clergy more than was an equivalent for the advantage that would re sult from the transfer of collecting tithes from themselves to others. This was a measure of degree and a measure of time; for while he had the honour of being a member of Lord Grey's Government, he carried through the House a measure which had diminished day by day the risk to which the Established Church in Ireland was exposed.---( Hear, hear.) Although he was willing, for the sake of peace, to consent, to make a sacrifice of 25 per cent., lie could not say, if the fair pro positions that would bo made were rejected—and when lie saw, as he understood was the case, the clergy in the possession of 85, 90, and 95 per cent. of their incomes—that he should feel himself justified in taking from them this amount of hicome.—(Cheers from the Opposition, replied to by cheers from the Ministerial benches.) It was for the interest of all parties that some settlement should be come to on this sub ject. lie had been told that the Government had found out some verbal inaccuracies in these clauses which they had cor rected ; but he found that they were a lileratim et verbatim copy of the clauses introduced into the Bill in the Lords. It was proposed in these clauses that on benefices falling vacant the Ecclesiastical Commissioners should make a new arrange ment, but that they should not reduce these revenues below a certain amount. This was proposed, because it was expected that a Clergyman should have the education, and be a gentle man ; and this was, agave all, desirable in a country like Ire land. Oe this ground, they proposed that no Clergyman should have less than 300/. a-year. When he and his friends proposed this last year they showed that after each incumbent of a parish had 300/. a-year allowed to him there cool I not by any possibility be a farthing. remaining for other purposes. (Cries of Hear, hear, hear.) lie proposed 3001. a year, be cause in the Church Temporalities Act of Lord Grey's Go vernment, it was directed that no living should be taxed when with a less income than 3001. a-year. Upon this admitted ground he took that sum as a minimum.—( Hear.) Government saw if they took the clauses in that form they would have no surplus, but still they were determined to make out a surplus. They, therefore, adopted the clauses and struck out the security, and enabled their own Commis sioners to reduce the livings to 40/., 50/., and 601., a-year. (The Noble Lord was in this and other parts of his speech cheered very loudly by some Hen. Members in such a peculiar tone and manner as to excite loud and general laughter.) On this point also he intended to take th sense of the House. There was a third point to which no induce silent would lead him to give his consent. To these clauses he believed that nine-tenths of the House would never assent, namely, imposing a tax to the amount of 10 per cent, on the clergy for the purpose of national education, on the alleged authority of a statute of Henry VIII., which had no more to do with the question than in any other Act of Parliament taken at randoin.—( Cheers.) This, however, was done for the purpose of being able to slide gently out of the principle of appropriation.—(-Hoar, hear.) With a desire then to vote for parts of this Bill, and with the hope of correcting the parts lie alluded to, lie should vote for the second reading. Lord J. RUSSELL said, as this debate will not lead to any general discussion of the Bill I will not detain the House by entering on the subject at length, but I cannot help re :narking on the cousse which the Noble Lord opposite has pursued; not, indeed, dissimilar, but very similar, to that whiCh he has followed on former occasions. lie showed a desire which I will not emulate to excite heat in this debate. —( Hear, hear, hear.) His conduct reminds me of that of a gentleman with whom I was formerly acquainted and in the habits of intimacy, and who was extremely fond of disput ing. It often happened that after much debate, and when I felt no longer disposed to dispute any matter in discussion, and said, " Well, I will agree with you," my Friend would then turn round and exclaim, " Agree with me I why is this, why will you agree with me? What reason have you for doing so ?"—(dreat laughter.) The Noble Lord said that it was a shocking matter that his Majesty's Ministers agreed with him—(Laughter)—that it was a very shocking matter to adopt clauses verbatim et litera.'im which my Noble Friend formerly proposed, and he exclaims, " Why is this ?" —( Renewed laughter.) And declares this in a tone of anger and irritation, as if we were inflicting some personal injury on Laughter and cheers.) As the Noble Lord has said that in this matter we are now agreed, I will not go into the question or disagree with him ; but I must congratulate the N o bl e Lord that there still remains much matter of difference between us. —( Cheers and laughter. ) I will only state that the opinion that I have always been of is that the Government of Ireland should be conducted f it• the benefit of the people of Ireland generally—( er4)—but the Noble Lord only seems to consider th:! Gove - nment of that country should be carried on for the benefit not mere'y of the Protestants, nor of the clergy, but for a small p ;mon of the clergy, so that there is still much matter of debate ai.d difference between us.—( Loud and continued cheering.) The question was then put, on which a number of Members on the Opposition benches rose, and has ily quitted the House, amidst great laughter and el cers from the Ministerial benches. The House then divided— For the amendment l4 Against it Majority —2ls Lord STANLEY wished to know when the points on which there was a difference of opinion would come on for discussion. Ile wished to know whether the resolutions upon taxation would come on the first upo-1 Friday next. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he could hardly expect to be able to bring on the question on Friday next ; but if he could he would bring on the resolutions on taxation first. Mr. HUME gave notice that on Tuesday next be should move an address to his Majesty, to direct the Cormnissioncrs of Woods and Forests to purchase Primrose-hill and the pelts adjoining fo • the use of the public. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at a quarter to One o'Clock. IRISH MUNICIPAL CORPORATION BILL. Division on Lord Melbourne's motion, that the House now resolve into a Committee on this Bill. NON CONTENTS. P RESENT— I YS. EARLS. Rossi yn Selkirk Shaftesbury Stamford Tankery il le Verulam Warwick Wicklow Wilton Vane (Marquis of Londonderry) VISCOUNTS. Canterbury Comberm ere Exmouth Hawarden Hood Hutchinson Melville Sidney St. Vincent 4RCHBISIFJP. York DIKES. Cumberland Dorset Newcastle Northumberland Rutland ‘Vellington MARQUIS t 3. ute Camden Cholmondeley Hertford Salisbury Thomond Westmeath B BONS. Clinton Churchill Clanbrassil Colchester Colville Cowley Delamere De Saumarez Dunmore Dunsany Ellenborough Feversh,m Fitzgerald Fitzgibbon Forrester Gage Hay Heytesbury Kenyon Kerr (Lothian) Loftus Marquis of Lyndhurst Manners Maryborough Afeldrum (Huntley) Melross (Earl of Haddin.4ton) Monson Montagu Penshurst Ravensworth Rayleigh lteay ltedes late Rolle Saltersford Sondes Southampton Stewart of Garlies St. John of Bletso Stuart de Rothsay Tenterden Wharnelitfe Willouglibydeßroke Wynford EARLS. Aberdeen Abingdon Bandon Beauchamp Brownlow Caledon Carnarvon Dartmouth Devon Digby Doncaster (Duke of Buccleuch) Falmouth Glengall D., Grey Graham (Montrose) Hare wood Harrowby Hillsborough Jersey Leven and Me:vi Limerick Liverpool Lonsdale Macclesfield Manvers Moreton Orford Orkney Plymouth Ripon BISHOPF. Bangor Carlisle Chester Exeter Gloucester I.landatY Lincoln Oxford Rochester Winchester BARONS. Abinger Alvanley Ardrossan Bagot Bayning Bexley Bolton Boston Bravbrooks Camden Carteret PROXIES-77. EARLS. Mlnsfield Mayo Mountcasbel Alount Edgcumbe O'Niel Onslow Pembroke Powis Sandwich Somers, St. Germain's Palbot We,tmorel an d Winchilsea ISCOUNTS. Arbuthnot Ber..sford DUKES. Beaufort BIANOPS. London St. Asaph Buckingham Leeds Mar chester BA IRONS, Arden Carbery Carrington Clanwilliam (Earl) De Tabley Douglas of Douglas Dvnevor Farnborough Farnham Forbes Harris Hopetowa Oriel Onnonde (Marquis) Prudhoe Rivers Rodney Sheffield (Earl) Skelmersdale Sinclair St. Helen's Thurlow Tyrone W.dsingham Wigan MARQUISES. Aylesbury litistol "rwecdtlale EARLS, Airlie A ylcsford Isathorst Beanorc Beverley Bradfoid Buckinghamshire Cardigan Cialicarty Delawarr Eldon Elgin Ea nisk illen Guilford Home Hope Lindsay Loran Mahnesbury Canning Doneraile Goa Ilereford Lorton Sidmouth ARCHBISHOP. Canterbury BISHOP. Clogher CONTENTS. PRESENT-74. - Oxford I'ag4 (Uxbridge) Itainoe osebery c .rborough hrewsbury Spencer Ihanet Yarmout h 'VISCOUNT Duncannon Me!bourn., rrington BISIIOPS Chichester Durham Killaloe Hipou Sai.sbury BA lONS. Arundel Barham A..t.•man Brougham r.nd Vaux Idyron PAIRE OFF. Lord Chancellor DUKLS, Argyll Grafton Norfolk lUehmo.ul Somerset Sutherland ?OA RQUISES. Clan ricarde Conynghani Hea :fort Lansdowne Que.2nsberry Tar istock Westunnst. r EA 1t1.4. Albemarle Burlington Camperdown Cork Fitzwill:am Leitrim Minto ith Morley Viscount Maynard Lord 'Wallace Earl Ponlett Marquis of Exeter BARONS, Crewe Dacre Denman I)inorhen Falkland Foley Gardner Glenelg Godolphin Hatherton Howard of Etrngham Hou•den Kinnaird Langdale Li ford Lynedoch Mostyn Putt imore Portman Save and Sele Sealord Stratford Suffield Templemore Teynham Vernon Bishop of Hereford Lord Lovat Earl of Sefton Earllof Lichfield STEAM-VESSEL EXPLOSION. (ALridged from the Hull Advertiser of Friday.) NQUEST ON TILE BODIES OF THIRTEEN PERSONS KILLED 1:1" TIIE EXPLOSION. From the humane desi;e - to - enaTiellierelatives of the suf ferers by this calamitous occurrence to remove the bodies of their friends as early as possible, the Coroner, Mr. Thorney, summoned a Jury for six o'clock on Wednesday evening. At that hour, the inquest was opened at the Police Station-house, in Blanket-row, where the bodies lay. The CORONER stated to the Jury that they were assembled to inquire into the circumstances attending the death of the following persons—namely, John Stephenson, Robert Chat terton, Luke Groen, Weston, Rebecca Ferrier, Bland. Alfred Pape, John Lowther, William Hutchinson, Richmond Tomlinson, Elizabeth Clegg-, Alice Dinsdalc, and Joseph Matthews. After the distressing task of viewing the persons of the dead had been concluded, the Coroner proceeded to call witnesses. Israel Myers, who stated that he was of the Jewish persua sion, being sworn after the manner of his sect, gave testimony as follows—ls by trade a jeweller, and resides in Nile-street, Hull; was about going to Gainsborough in the Union steam packet, this morning; went about half-past five o'clock to the Humber Dock Basin, from which the Gainsborough packet usually starts. 'Went on board the Union, passing through a crowd of passengers to the atter end of the vessel ; was on board about twenty minutes before anything occurred ; then heard a crackling noise, like the sound of a few sticks breaking. Does not recollect seeing anything particular until he turned himself round, and was surprised to perceive the vessel sinking. IZeceived a bruise on the head, but was not knocked down ; could see nothing, owing to the smoke and steam by which he was surrounded ; the noise he heard was like the shooting of a cart-load of stones. Got into a boat close by, but could not see any people ; when in the boat, after the smoke began to clear away, picked up a girl whose head appeared above water; the girl had a severe bruise on the heal ; she exclaimed, on bci ig picked up, " Dear Sir, where arc we ?—what are they doing ?" Witness then saw that the vessel was blown up ; most of the people were on the Thorne packet, which was alongside ; saw the packet an hour and a half after the explo sion. Any person standing on the deck at the time of the ex plosion must have been blown up ; the boiler had burst, and the vessel was shattered. George Baines examined—ls an innkeeper, and lives at South Clifton, Nottinghamshire. Was on board the Union this morning, about half past six o'clock. There were a great many people on board. Stood talking with an acquaintance from Sheffield, by the windlass, about five minutes. While doing so, heard a noise as if the vessel were rent asunder. Something hit him on the side of the head and knocked him down. When he got up he was drenched with water. After getting up, saw his son on board. There was a tremendous noise. Got up the plank, which had not been taken away, with his son, and went ashore. Witness's eyes were very pain ful with the hot water ; was quite stupified, and went away without noticing the particulars of the accident. Has sine* seen his friend from Sheffield with whom he was talking. Saw nothing more than he has stated, having felt hurt and terrified. Noticed no noise of the escape of steam. Is not acquainted with steam machinery. Ilad been on board about a quarter of an hour before the explosion. . The CORONER intimated that the inquiry had now proceeded sufficiently far to authorize him to permit the removal of the bodies. He should therefore adjourn the inquest, in urder that time might be afforded for procuring evidence to show the cause of the explosion. The inquest was accordingly ad journed until eleven o'clock on the following day, when the Jury were requested to re-assemble at the Guildhall. 'the CORONER gave instructions fur summoning another Jury, to meet at half-past nine o'clock next morning, to inquire into the circumstances attending the death of Josep Goddard, Arthur Hutchinson, a female named Moody (all of whom had died .t the Infirmary), and Thomas Jacques, who had been removed to his own house in Junction-street. INQUEST AT THE INFIRMARY. A Coroner's Inquest was held yesterday morning, at half past nine o'clock, in the Infirmary, on the bodies of Mr. Ar thur Hutchinson, a remarkably fine young woman of the name of Moody, James Goddard, a boy about 16 years of age (who expired about two o'clock in the morning), lying dead in the hou,:o, and Mr. Thomas Jacques, who was at his own resi dence in Junction -street, all of whom were killed by the ex plosion of the Union, Hull and Gainsborough steam-packet. William Abbott, policeman No. 64, was on the east pier between a quarter and half-past six o'clock in the morning, and at that time a gentleman of the name of Thompson, from Louth, observed there was something wrong with the packet, in, consequence of hearing a sudden noise, when a person stand ing by replied it was only a box that bad fallen ; in about five minutes afterwards the packet blew up ; there were many per sor,s on board ; after the explosion he saw a number of people in the water endeavouring to extricate themselves, and he im mediately ran to the station-house and gave information of the catastrophe. Before the explosion he saw steam and sraokg jssu-