The Sun. — London, England, 1823-02-20 00:00:00

flay was no longer performed in this manner. With a view to - ascertain what the Lieutenant-General and Master-Gene ral's separate duties were, an examination :was instituted by the CeninaiSsioners, the result of which was, that in the ab sence of the Master-General, the' Lieutenant-General took his place, and kept an account of the warrants. Mr. Crew, who had held a high official situation in the office, stated that hii duties were not distinct from those which belonged to him is the capacity of a Member of' the Board, unless in the ab sence of the Master-Getteral, or in the event of a vacancy.— Fart Chatham and Lord Moira, who had both been Masters- General, were examined. To Lord Chatham the question was Tut, " What is your opinion of the utility of the appointment of Lieut.-Oeneral of the Ordnance ?" The answer to this ques tion was reniarkable. The Noble Earl begged to postpone an. swering, which was accordingly permitted, in order that he might have time, no doubt, to consult with those interested in the afthir, and manage his' answer to suit their taste. When he did make any reply it appeared in a postscript, and was to t he f o ll ow ing curi ous awe I really find it difficult to Understand what could lead to the doubt expressed by your geestion, of the tftilitrof the appointment of Lient..fienerale, especially when the office appears to have been filled by such high and responsible names"—as though (continued the Bon. Member) the high and responsible narnes had any thing to do With the mattes'--(Near i)—Next was Lord Moira, to whom the same qutstion Was put. His answer was very different. lie said—" 1 apprehend the office was originally instituted in contemplation of the hlastersGeneral, who. is usually an Officer of high military rank, helot! sent abroad in the command of an army: In that case the Lieut.-General would certainly take tit management of the department in his place. Beyond this, lim not aware of any duties he can have beyond those of a 'Member of the Board." The Commissioners upon this evi dence, report to the House to' the same effect. In -the same way the Clerks were thought Useless, as they could only be required in case aif the absence of the ii‘laster.General, and in the absence of' the ..Master.Oeneral at Walcheren, the whole duty was done by the Under Secretary. The Com. mis t ioners therefore said i—" We think that these Clerks mot be unnecessary, and ought .to be dismissed, especially as it is not likely the absence of a Alaster.Oeneral would lee of long continuance. We are also of opinion, that a Lieut.. lieneral cannot be essential to the constitution of the Board, especially it' the Mieter.tieneral have not the duties of the Oppointmente to attend to," The Commissioners recommended also that the Ordnance Department should be united under one distinct Commission, in thernanner of the Treneury and the Ad. miralty, with the title of Commissioners, and the Master.Oe. metal at the head, and the duties exactly of the same nature..- 'Lord Moira said that the Officers should be fixed, with one 'in the Howie of Commons to answer questions and give informs. - than The Commissioners allowed there . might be two in the House, and the others should be fixed. But they had seen four in that House: and even now there were three, con trary to the recommendation of the Commissioners, anti three to one over the allowance of Lord Moira. The complaint he had to snake was, that scarcely any one recommendation of --the Commissioners had been attended to. They had recom mended the present :formation of the Board to he abolished ; and the question for the [louse was, whether they thought it necessary that this Board in ot time of peace should have five ()dicers for conducting the affairs of such a small department, 'when they considered that four were sufficient to conduct the affairs of the Navy. Things must be very much changed if the Navy . of 'England was unworthy of the same degree of coml. deration as the Ordnance. Be might be told that the Barrack and Commissariat Departments; had been added to the Ord. , nance. But the linrrack had always belonged to it, and even with both, the business in amount and importance could be nothing to that of the Navy. If therefore the House thought 'itself right in the decision of last Session relative to the Lords 1 1 Of the Admiralty, it could not refuse him the motion he was about to submit for the redaction of one from the number of -this Board: When considered that the nation paid 90001. for the Ordnance Board, and 40001. for the Admiralty, the disparity -would Appear in all its enormity. After the Speech front the , Throne, it was really an insult to the petition of the people for •retrenchment, to fill up this appointment within twenty - four hour; of the meeting of that House. In the existing circum stances of the country, they : ought not to spend one single -shilling beyond what was actually necessary. The House therefore, he trusted would support him in endeavouring to make s stand against wasteful cxpendure, in the instance of 'whet he considered to be the most expensive of the public de .partments, Ireland always excepted. The Report said the Secretnry ought to have no more than 01101.-a year, whereas' Alt. Crew had 15001. a year, according to the returns last 1 year, whilst hie house cost the country 15,000/. building. lie did not. blame Mr. Crew forgetting all he could, but he blamed 1 those Who gave it to him. The Secretary in etoint of fact cost tint nation 1,9001. a year ; for a pension of 400/. wasigiven to Captain Chapman to retire and make way for some ot*lse. it wait impossible the appointment could be of rounichnport. imest, fig he was frequently absent— indeed lie was at-the • present moment at Aledria. .'Why„ then enty 1,5001: a year for tivrformilig tiro , duty, arc ;send the fielividtial on ann. ther ; 'rite Under -Secretary wits discharged but without any saving to the -public, for the 3001; a year he had was di• vided betwixt his two clerks, who were kept. There was no Department in the State required more looking after then the Ordnance, he was convinced. In 1790 the whole Department cost I ,720/., being in time of war ;. but in 1021, ,the sixth year • of peace, it cost 03,273/., being an increase of 47,0001. upon the two Office; of the Tower and Pall-mall only . The Commis. *corers of Military Inquiry, seeing this great crease, suggested two mot: important alterations, which it became the duty of the House so take notice had never. been attended to. The first was, that the two Department at the Tower and Pall mall, should be consolidated, anti most properly So, for no mode was ever invented to increase expences equal to this. fie • telievEtti there were ten clerks to carry on the correspondence, • and they were paid their travelling expences between the two .oilicee. They recommended also one place of receiving the stores inatead of their being taken' in first at the Tower anti then sent to Woolwich'. Another grievance was, that individuals were allowed - a certain sum for - house.ient, and houses were built considerably beyond the ratio of the allowance. For in. 1 'Mince a Store-keeper was allotted .501. for that purpose, arid a house which cost 4,000/. was built for him. lie believed the Department possessed 3 or 400 houses, and one half of these wen distant from the individuals for whom they were intend.. ed. The Hon, Member 'concluded by moving," That as the' • Commissioners for Military inquiry have reported, in their • 1301 Report, that according to their belief, founded upon the information given to them, the appointment of Lieutenant. Sienterst of the Ordance is not essential to the Constitution of the Board in time of. war, this House is of opinion that the resent appointment of Lordellereeford in time of peace, is in. ce . petietent wi.h the recommendations of the sikl Report , at va riance with the professions of Economy lately delivered from the. Throne, and contrary to the interests of the country, which • in its present mate rettotree that economy in the State which will retrench every thing not absolutely neccessary to the country," The quivition having been put from the (hair, . WARD rose.— Ile had, he said; to charge the Hon. 'Member with having put words Into the mouthti of the Corn. mileioners for Military Inquiry which they never used, and with having attributed to them, in the paper which he . had actually put into the hands of the Chair, sentiments which were not only not correet, but the very reverse of which were correct, as coming from them. . Time Honourable Member made them say, in the body of hie motion, that the appointment 'ofis " cu tet talt4en aal of Ordnance was unnecessary in time of war. Mr. BUMF. ltcee attempted to address the Chair, but was called to order by the House. Mr. WA RD understood the !Inn. Member to persist in his • motion i or did he deny it was as he hart stated ite.ln that case ne Witted the motion to be read. • The Clerk then reed the niotion, and upon Coming to tits weed " Bossed," first occurring, was %topped by Mr. nalg, with the understanding, as we apprehend, that the words " in • time or war' , were to be omitted. Mr. WA iii?—.He had no objection to take it as the lion. Member wished. The Dein. Member, lie must say, was al witys ready enough to admit -facts, when Iteeinderstood diem. He believed. his best way of dealing with the House and the Hon. Gentleman, would be to diVide into three parts what he had to say relative to the ease of the lion. Gentleman. Firet, then, .be would endeattonr to %how, that he had mistepre. :witted the Commiesioners ; next that the Commissioners . had therneelven misrepresennsl the evidence-upon which they professed to found their Report, and lastly, that supposing both to be collect in their repreeentations,,, he would contend that Such an alteration had taken place in the business of the - department, that it was totally impressible to attendqo the re. • eonemendetione of the Military Commiselonerie—Ellear, hear ) --Helend given credit to the lion. Member for honesty in his ststements to die House, but lie was carry to follow this up by exposing his garhivd quotations front the Report in question to *seed his case, by leaving out much which came after what he had thought proper to read .to the House. lie would read the real Report, and leeve, it to the memories of lion. Members-to merle the difference. Two years ago, in melting a eimilar mo. tion, the lion. Memb er r e ad front the Report RS fOHOW3 It • • itimeare from the evidence laid befare us,,that the appointment .or Li e utenvit.oenerai is not essential to the ciepstitution of thi edenontment." There the B on . Member tarnerly stopped ; and theee, to Isis lltier estonishmt nt, Ito againatoppai that plea.. Let the !louse, .however, listen to the Report, and judge be.. twoen them, whether the Commissioners had or had not been otisrrotelOted, and the expression of their opinions garbled by -the Then. Member or not. -it went an say—" especially it it be underateM that the attention of the Master.ileneral be not, ..withdrawn to the dude* of other appointrnents."— ( II ear, hear I) expression, it was obvious, altered the whole ; because for (he Report to go along with the lion. Member, the office of Master-General must be entirely new cast. But the Report still went on to say, that " if that should not take place , we have nothing to offer on the appointment of Lieutenant-0e• neral." The Report here referred to the recommendation, that the 51aster-Generel should have no .other appoint. meats of a former Report. Bot this was eitppressed, .(he' ought to say omitte.ds, and he thought he was entitled to ex press a little surprise that a inarrof such laborious research should not have observed, and of such honesty should hare omitted a second time to put the House in possession of this very essential remainder part of the Report.--(1 - 1 ear, hear !)—The Report then said—" It was only in consequence of this roam- i mendation that it occurred to us to express this opinion on the appointment of Lieutenant-(leneral, and unless this prelitni.e l nary arrangement be effected, we have nothing to offer on the: , subject. Hear, hear, hear!)—Next he ..would endeavour to show that the Commissioners bad themselves not understood I Lord Moira when they gave it am his opinion that the utility of the Lieut-General was contingent on the absence or illness of the Mmter.fieneral. Neither were they right in attributing_to Lord Chatham the same opinion "in a great measure." Die reedy the reverse was the fact. Lord Moira's evidence went to say, that he had no other business but as a Member of the Board, therefore, fbr any thing the Commissioners had stated, he might have other great and important business attached to his appointment. Lord sloirasaid he formed the link which united the civil and military duties of the department, and they and the Hon. Gentleman opposite(Mr. Hume) would have done well to have stopped there. The Commissioners said that "an officer who had been soiong at the head of the department was entitled to some consideration ;" and in that he (Mr. 'Ward) perfectly agreed with theme and also, " that the slaster.Ge. nail was frequently absent." The Hon. Member had been guilty of great injustice towards Lord Chatham, in charging him with what he did not mean to say did not accord wi th thereat belief of the Honourable Member, with criminal con duct, because, when on his oath, he desired to - have more time to answer to a point of much importance. Surely, this was what every virtuous and correct man who wished to afford a trim statement in answer would do ; and it was upon the strength of it that the Hon. Member thought fit to charge him with the de sign to " manage" the matter,—(Hear, hear 1)-11e reproached the 'Hon. Gentleman with this. Lord Chatham might have enemies in that House, but never had he done that to deserve 'such a sentence as had'eacaped the lips of the Hon. Gentleman; and least of all when in the discharge of a religioui duty.— Lord Chatham having deliberately considered theanatter, did express his astonishment that the mind of man could conceive the necessity of asking such a question, and this was heightened by the reflection of the respectable names which had filled the appointment. He explained. what had been overlooked by the Honontable Member, that he should not have sOokeii so much - •on the subject ; but that the Commissioners had asked hint to go into detail, in consideration of the Jul portanceof the subject. And it was in the lelnest endeavotir to meet that request that the Noble Earl had provoked the lion. Member's charge of having "managed" the nuttier betwixt the oath by which he was bound, and the interest* of others. —(Hear, hear, hear 1) —Independently of what the Lieutenant-1 General was instructed to do •in time absence of the Master. I General, he had several specific duties extending over the mi. litery questions upon which, in the diversity of business that came under the cognizance of the Board, that officer was emi nently useful. If the House would look at the nature of the appointment with this view, they would see that they were all filled up by men of great military experience and eminence. —lie need only mention the late lamented Sir Hildebrand Oakes, Lord Amherst, Lord Howe, with a string of others of the saute stamp, to prove his position. The Honourable Member would do much better. be could assure him, to move ' for the abolition of his (Mr. Ward's) office, than that of the Lieutenant-General. The honourable Member then went to the evidence of Mr, Crew, whom he raised up against Lord , Chatham. Mr. Crew said, that besides, as a Member of the Board, he knew of nothing the Lieut.-General had to do. But lw entirely omitted his duties altogether distinct from the Board, on the.shores of the River at the Tower, and at Woolwich, in' 'regulating and superintentling the exercise of the Carps, and nil appertaining to the military constitution of it, as well as the surveying of the Pensioners, as was done at Greenwich llmis. l pitttl. Next, the lion. Member, if he rightly understood hint, directed himself to Mow the House the necessity of abolishing the Limit... General's Clerks. lie did not mean to quarrel with the lion. Gentleman here; Ihr these Clerks had been abolished ten years ago—(A laugh)—and upon his (Mr. Ward's) motion. He hoped therefore the House would .not run away with the idea that the offices Still existed.. lie did not know whether the House would expect that he should follow the Honourable Member for Aberdeen through all his various topics and gar bled statements. lie did not wish to use harsh expressions to, wards the Honourable Member, nor do him the injustice to attribnte his mistakes to him as designed ; but having only two years ago taught a pitched battle with the lion. Gentleman on precisely the same ground, he did not think it was altogether requisite lie should again enter into the same field of discuss sion. On that occasion, the lion. Member, as was custotnin't with him, tout noule 111). attack upon hint of ticaTly two tumors duration, without giving any previous notice of his intention ; but such he might say was the integrity of the Office r that with. out a figure in his pocket, or preliminary calculation of any kind, lie was 'elite to compute on the spot, to the discomfiture of the lion. Member. The motion of the lion. Gentleman said, that the office of Lietttenent-General was unnecessary ; but the lion. Gentleman said, that the whole ordnance was unneces sary. When, too, he thought fit to bring terward motions winch threatened the situation of clerks and dependents upon Government, he thought it would be but fair and generous In the Hon. Gentlemen to give notice, in order that the unfortu nate individuals, whose only means of subsistence were thus put in jeopardy, might have time to look about them. But it wits always in this sort of way that the Ilon. Member acted, when he proposed taking such a course. He had again resort. eml to his favourite practice of comparing the present establish. ments with those of 1709 e and in the present case with his usual pertinence and fairness. When the difference of ex. penditure was pointed out, It ought also to be shown the diffe. risme there was in the bulk of the establishment. In 1792, for instance, the corps was 4,000 strong ; now it was 8,000. At that, period there was no Hovel Artillery ; there were no Sleepers and Miners; then theyhad a Half-pa y List of 20,0001., now it amounted to 400,0001.—(11ear, hear ta—ln-1792, they were 4 or 5 Colonies : now we had the West Indies with the 16 new Colonies added by the war. They had pereat arrears of accounts to deal with.--(Hear, from Mr. liumeae-But those arrears, lie begged to remind the lion. Member who had. done him the honour to cheer hint, arose from the want of that strength which the lion. M anther not only denied them, but endeavoured to make still more requisite. It was not from laziness but penury. lie could not conclude without advert ing to a most gm* unjust, and cruel misrepresentation • which the Hon. Member had indulged. Ile alluded to the un qualified manner in which he had spoken of Colonel Chapman, giving out that he had taken.4ool. a year to retire from, office to make room fur some one else. It was upon this statement that he appealed to thajustice of the most inveterate oppo nent of Government, and even of the lion. Gentleman him self, ,for he was not, he believed, an ill-natured man, to give a verdict in that Gallant Office?* favour against the aspersions which had been cast upon him. It was through his Grace the Duke of Wellington that Colonel Chapman had received the benefit complained of. Colonel Chapman, as they all knew,: was a meritorious anti gallant officer of engineers. lie was the only one surviving engineer of those who ehabled time Duke .of Wellington to achieve the completion of the lines of Torres Vedras, whichby an impregnable barrier accomplished the per fect security and defence of Portugal. by which his Grace had rendered himself immortal. Colonel Chapman was princi pally useful to his Grace, n that work, and under the circutn etances he had already stated, was reconnnentled by hint to the consideration of Government to be' remiarded far itlx zealous services. He obtained the appointment alluded to by the lion. tientletnatt, and when that was done away with, he claimed the benefit intended to be conferred,: on hint by the situation. This was tha history of that gallant officer's pen sion of 4001. a year, which by the floe. Member had been chg.- metalled as a job.-.-(hear, hear I)—He was glad from the Hon. Members' cheers, to see that lie was open to conviction. The assertion was false, cruel,,and unjust; and if any one had imputed it to that gallant officer, so as to umake the Hon. Member believe it and bring it forward here, he would make bold to say, he was guilty of a most malignant and nefarious de. ception. After Having laboured night Midday to enable the hem of this country to actomplish time great work of salvation a es lie bad done; It was too much afterwards to be taunted in the British House of Commons with implication in a miserable, dirty job. -e(Hear, hear ! front both sides of the House.)--If those cheers meant retraction on the part of , the Hon. Member, then he would retract all lie had said on the subject.—(Hear, heart from Mr. Hume.)—having thus brought down what was fitting to satisfy time feelings of the Honourable individual in question, he (Mr. Ward) would rest contented. Returning, therefore, to the question, he would Abstain from following the Hop. ()en- Oxman through the general invective he hail dealt in, and con fine himself to the single point, whether the appointment of Lieutenatit.General of the Ordnance were a good One or not. It the whole system had been, as so frequently declared by the lion. limber, corrupt, he would have come down to that House and demolished them long since-by piecemeal, whereas he had been foiled in every attempt, either in genends or in particu. tars. Hose could the Hon. Member undertake to say how the Inetinees of the department was conducted during the late period of vacancy ? Was ha in the precincts of the office during that time ? Far his part (Mr. II aril), he could undertake' to say, that his Gallant Friend behind him, the Sorveyor.General (Sits U. B. Burgh), had been so overwhelmed with business as to be obliged to work for a long time after the office hours mitt% own residence, and this too, when his Gallant Friend possessed so much greater a facility eergeiting through them himself. Fre cniently had Ise entreated him (Mr. Ward) to go with him to assist to keep the busiuese under; but he had positively re fusetl.-.(A keep were, it was true, the servants of the public ; but that did not mean that they were slaves. They 'were. he would venture- to sky, as patriotic ,as the Honourable Menthe) , for 'Aberdeen ; although they might not possess his strength of mind or body. For his own part, he was sure be could not boast of a mind like his ; hit brain, he was sure, would net bear half what the Hon. Member's must suffer. With these advantages, he most sincerely wished it were in hit power to persuade the Hon. Gentleman to come and do the work of his office without salary, and without patronage—he was convinced he would be tired of it in a week. To assist his case the Honour eble Gentleman instituted a comparison betwixt the Board of Admiralty and the Board of Ordnance. But e the Hon. Gentle man, for want of being properly instructed, be should rather say, informed, had fallen into a most wicked error. When he talked of the whole business of the Navy being conducted by a Board of four Commissioner, whilst the Ordnance had five, had the lion. Gentleman never heard of the Commissioners of the Navy, at' the Victualling Board, of the Treasurer? Had he never heard of the Outports, with all which the Admiralty had nothing to do ? Did the Lords of the Admiralty audit accounts ? No, but the Ordnance did. Were they manufac turers ? Did they cast their cannon or make their gunpowder ? Ilad they any arsenal at Woolwich, or elsewhere of which to superintend and regulate the operations ? No such work fell to their hands,--they made contracts for what they wanted, but that was all., And all this was suppressed in the Iron. Gentleman's statement to the House, to purchase, he was going to say, a ridiculous species of plausibility by contrasting the numbers four and five. The same with regard to the ex:. pence of the two Boards. Some people thought the Lords of the Admiralty undezpaid. . Mr. Pitt said, the money-price was nothing—they were paid in honour, and afterwards in high commands. But then again, the Hon. 31ember went back to 1792 and, t 790, and talked of a rise in the salary of the different Officers. Here was another gross error. Probably he knew not that any rise that had taken place in the nominal amount of the stipend had not covered the loss of fees that had ac crued. or his part he spoke feelingly ; for at this moment be received 3001. a year less than his predecessor in 1790. (Hear, hear !)—And he would venture to say he hail ten times as much to do. This proceeded from the loss of fees. Therefore, as the Honourable Gentleman wishixl salaries to return to the, rate of 1791, he would be much obliged to him to persuade the House to make that arrangement as re garded Mtn (Mr. !Vera). But in 1796 they had no Ireland to deal with. The Irish Ordnance was an addition of 2,000 men. He need not, however, go any farther in the tract of the Hon. Gentleman. He had exposed his series of errors; he had de monstrated bow he had garbled the report of the Commis sioners, and that their report was remitted on evidence the re verse of their recommendation. He believed he might consider he had done enough as regarded the House. But he could not it down without giving what he could not but consider the main argument after all, in answer to the report. Ile put it to the Hon. Member if no change.in the state of things had taken place since the date of that report ; and if so, how could it appjy to the present case,? The Hon. Gentleman had surely not forgotten what woe his own constant cry last year? Ile had never ceased to tell the House to put this department and that department upon the-Ordnance„ The Ordnance Board, he said, can do more. His prayer was granted—the Commissa riat and Barrack Departments were thrown into the scale ; and what then ? Why the Hon. Member came forward and said, " Now diminish their strength." It was really alarming to see with what unrelenting steps the lion. Gentleman followed up his game. Surely it was destruction—it was nothing short of annihilation he was bent upon. But was the House of Commons to be dragged along with him in the track of de struction ? In that he hoped to see the Hon. Gentleman con vinced of his mistake. Had they saved - nothing by this consoe Mallon of those two Departments ? It was at least 4,5001.. a year saved by the arrangement; and now the Hon. Mem ber hed the grace to come forward to take 1500/. a year from them. An English House of Commons would not endure this. Business hail been greatly 'enhanced by the excellent repast. tions of the ;Raster-General of the Ordnance with regard to the Colonies. Checks had been established in different parts abroad, but were found inefficient securities against detalca. tion. In consequence of this, with a privnyance which cha racterized his Grace .more than any one who had pre. 'ceded him, he had done away with all these checks, substitut ing monthly reports to the Ordnance Office of every thing, even, to a pound of /4110 t, and this on pain of instant distills. Thns„ there were one hundred and one stations in Great Britain alone, of every one ,of which they hail now to pass the accounts, and be in daily correspondence. Besides all this they hail the accounts of the barracks, of the store branch, and the building branch of the two new services.— They had to 'attend to every trifle connected with any of them in any part of the Colonies. 'Thus there was an iron steeple to be built at Trinitlati, the plan and arrangement for which must go through the Ortintuice.—(A laugh.)—lf the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, or any other Gentleman, would do all this for honour, or nothing, as they did, and even less, with the reduc tion of ten per cent. in their salaries, he should be most happy' to give him every facility in his ianver. In conclusion, he did not think it necessary to move the previous question upon time' motion before the llouse-Lhe thought he had shewn sufficient reasons to induce' them to reject it, altogether.—(Reiterated cheers.) • Mr, IVILLIAMS observed, that the Speech of time honours.M Me ember consleted chiefly of a charge of per Version of facts on the part of his Honourable Friend, of animadversions on the Report alluded to, anti of a celebration of former vic tories, alleged to have been obtained by thiellonourable. Mem ber, which he still remembered with pleasure. His Honour able Friend had founded his motion upon the recommendation of the Commissioners of Military Inquiry; and, if those Commissioners had been inadequate, others should be appoint ed in their stead. It hail been said, that his Hon. Friend had in perverted the evidence taken before that Committee, andparticular the evidence of Lord Chatham but, if Lord Chatham spoke of arduous duties its having been performed by the Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance, it was only in the absence of time Master-General. It would be trifling with the House to propose rendering null, that eVidence, as it would not be completed before midnight. He contended, however, that the Report was perfeedy fair and specific, and that it had borne out the recommendation ef his Honourable Friend; and the chief reason that it assigned for this was, that the Master- General should be confined to the ditties of his offiCe. That restriction was the ground of the Report of the Commissioners. Why then was it not adopted? If this hid been done, the ex pence of the Lieut.-General might have bden spared.. It was, therefore, not without cause. that the Bon. Gentleman oppo site found fault with the construction which his Honourable Friend had very fairly . put upon that Report e when he speaks of farther inquiry aiebeing necessary in the off ce he abolished. —He would pass by the other parts of the case, because the part which was the most glaring, was that which , after the re-• commendation of the Commie:tamers, went to continue the office of the Lieutenant-General. This was in the very teeth of the House. The office had been in part condemned ; and yet, with this condemnation, and the continuation of the office be.. fore them, Ministers would tell the Ilouse and the country that they were anxious for tetrenchment. Would any one credit this declaration ? Was there any precedent for this Ministerial eco nomy ?' Was the reduction of time two Lords of time Admiralty a voluntary act, or was it hot rather the result of their having been driven from n strong hold ? 'Again, was any of the Postmasters. General given up voluntarily? No, every retrenchment that had been obtained had been obtained with difficulty, and everyplace which they had given up had been resigned' with reluctance. The profession at economy ought, therefore to be taken with allowance. He hoped shat the House would come to a decision upon the opinion of the Commilixioneri as etated)n the Relifitte and not upon the - poareiriatifilikill Of the Ikon. Gentleman (Mr. Ward),' as a tactician, although be hail been so anxious to bring the war home to his Hone Friend. If they should not accede toe the recommendation of his Non. Friend, then it would be a Warning to the country no longer to rest satisfied with professions, but to look to fulfilment. He was sorry to have troubled the House at so great length, but in his opinion' the , lion. Gentleman had not met the question.—(Hear !) • Mr. Secretary CANNING . , although he 4id not intend to occupy theilouse at any great length, or follow the Honorable Gentleman opposite into all the ramifications of the question, yet, having been on a former night called upon to explain why that office had been filled up,: having been at that time unpre. pared to'give an answeeto this inquiry—having since paid every poseible attention to it in all its hearings—having informed him self and come to a determinate conclusion, that a more false, un. founded, or unnecessary allegation never was made, he could not give a silent vote upon the occasion. The Hon. Gentleman had broughthe sa fo hr that it i l t " L c s h a a g rg a e n s st the recommendation of the with every agravation. Not-only Com missioners of Milit ar y e nq uiry —nee only had he described the Office as useless—not only hail he attacked' the general polity of the appointment ; but he had attacked the individual to whom It had been given,and the personal motives for which it had been given. He ad not only etiginatised it as useless to the public, but had stigmatised ii. for die most corrupt principles, and the basest motives—he had stigmatised the Nobleman on whom the office had been conferreel, as wholly unworthy.— (Cries of 4, No, no," an swered by Cheeys.)_Vc s , he would say, that the Noble Lord who had been appointed to the office, had been described as unworthy of it; for, as if all his skill in his profession—aslif all the services which he had rendered to his country had not been enough to procure it for him, it had been said that the office had' been given him on account of family connexions. —(Cries of " No, no.")--The Gentlemen might say ;minable Meaning of the language " No, no;" but he would affirm, that such was not merely the II.) had used. Thotharge had i w n ete l l i i ed ttlet t i th l. eGPenifitilveruglinacHr• gime forth to the world, holding up this appointmezt 13 apublic malversation and as private corruption ; and while that stood 'uncontradicted, the Noble Lord on whom the office had been conferred, and the Government which had conferred it on him, would labour under that charge—a charge which, after the most minute inquiry, was, he would say, fulse—(Cheers.)—Yes, he would say that it was false in every particular. It had been so Proved by his Hon. Friend ( Mr. Ward), and he would, he hoped, further confirm the proof ere hesat down. The motion averred, that it ►vas said in the 13thaeporeof the of Mi litary Inquiry, the Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance was not essential m time of war. Now he would say that this was not to be found in the 'Report-:-that it "was not only unfounded, but absolutely and wholly false. In that Report the Conunia sioners proceeded upon the belief that there was to be a regular attendance of the Master-General, before the Lieutenant-Ge neral could be dispensed with. When it was said that the , office of the Lieutenant-General was not essential, it was at the same time taken for granted, that the principal was not to be withdrawn from the ditties of the office. It was necessary that this document should not not be misunderstood, and for this purpose he would read the words of it :—" Lord 3loira's opinion of the utility of the office of Lieutenant-General, rests on the contingency of the absence or illness of the Master-Ge neral; but Lord Chatham has stated, that this office is most essential to the duly carrying on the business of the board, and is the link of communication between the civil and military busi- ness of the department ; so decided an opinion from an officer so long at the head of the Ordnance, is entttled to much considera tion."—lt had been thus said, that the Lieutenant was notneas- nary, only in the case of the Master being absent upon duty:— The office of the Lieutenant was still held to be necessary, only the' duties of It were not defined.—(Cheers.)—The Com missioners had only suggested, that two Clerks should be ap pointed Meet in the case of the absence of the principal. What, in short, was done by this Committee ?—Why, they provided a salary for the defunct Lieut.-General, and specified a sum as the reward of his posthumous labours. They said that, in the event of the duties of the office being done by the two Clerks, they might dispense with the services of the senior Officer.— (H ear!) Well, if the Hon. Gentleman meant to act upon the sugges tion of these Commissioners—if he means to demolish the name. of Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance, and call the senior Officer, who was to do the duty by another name, be (Mr. Secretary Cunning) knew not what the public had to gain by the matter. This was the extent of the proposal— the recommendation of the Com mrnissioners would certainly ad mit of amusing of another name, but it made no provision for the reduction. Now, if the only change was in the name, what proceeded Ariiv h o ed n n the o t li w u o ;p l:l ,6 l i t t e i c o o n m ti e ia o t f a th c e ha e n co g n e or la y d ? not a change in the absolute arrangenient been recommended ? He The whole ,llace. was not prepared to argue this, abd there was no necessity for it.--(Hear!)-The office would' have been recommended to be abolished If it had been practicable, but the recommendation went only to a change in the form. Now the motion did not touch that. If the lion. Gentleman could persuade the Mouse to make the change, then the recommendation of the Cool mistiionere would apply. The recommendation was one as to the expediency of filling the office of Major- General of the Ordnance by different men froM those who had hitherto filled it ; but the fact was, that it had always been filled by men of high military character. If the Hon. Gentleman thought that wrong, then he should have proposed a change. But while the Master-General remains the sante, it is admitted, that when he is absent upon other duties, the Lieutenant should supply his place. But he would ask the House if there was any thing in pre cedent- which would warrant the appointment of any but the highest military characters in the situation of Master-General of the Ordnance; or that should confine them to the office details of that Office ? Vas it not when he held that situation, that Marlborough had achieved the victory of Blenheim ? And had not the Duke of Wellington, while he held the same office, performed an important part in the Councils of Europe ? He Commons to wish that the mode of filling the office should be was sure that these examples would not induce the House of changed. It would be found in the very Report that had been alluded to, that if the filling of the Office of Master- General were allowed to remain as at present (and he was sure that Office ought always to .be filled by the most conspicuous person of the profession), then the office of Lieutenant could not be dispensed with. If the Master-General were to be the most conspicuous person in the military profession, then he ought not to be confined to the office duties' when the service of the country might require him in other situations. if, then, the Master-General were to remain as he is at present, then the opinion of the Commissioners was that the office of the Lieutenant-General should also be continued. But it had been said that the present appointment had been the result of corrupt influence ; and that on this account the Parliament ought to carry to the foot of the Throne the expression of their indignation. Now, of all the feelings which could enter into the mind, of any man, It was very obvious that this had the least foundation, and, if it were calmly considered, there was none to be compared with it in point of absurdity. There was not in that statement a shadow of truth ; for; if corrupt 'tutu enet .had operated in this case, never did corrupt influence operate by so strange means. The office was filled up with hesitation, and, after it had been vacant for four months—as if there had been a reluctance between this corruption and con science. The office became vacant a few days before the Duke of Wellinton left this country for the Continent. It was vacant, he believed, on the 9th of September, and his Grace went abroad on the 15th. In the interim he was confined to his chamber by indisposition. In the interim the Duke, however, did speak to his Majesty, and recommended, not one person, but three of his companions in arms, as uncertain whether they would accept of the office, and of these the office had been given to the third. The Earl of Hopetoun had refused, and after him Lord Hill, and it was only after the refusal of both that Lord Beresford had been appointed.' After the Duke had, at Vienna, learned of Earl Ilopetoun's refusal, he wrote a letter to Lord Hill. Prom the tenor of that letter it would be seen whether the office was one without duties, and whether it had been given for family connexions. If it had been so given, then the letters were specimens of the most consummate hypocrisy; and among all the vices of which the Duke of Wellington had been ac cused, hypocrisy was certainly net one. But if he had in this case acted the hypocrite ; then he must have suffered his diplo macy to infect hint to a very unusual degree. He would read the letter to the House. • The'Rightlloneurable Gentleman then read as follows : " My dear 11111—You ere aware of the death of Lieutenant. General Oakes, late Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance, and it will be a great satisfaction to me to recommend you to the King to fill that office. I know that it will be satisfetory to his Matesty. Mere Mr. Canning observed, "the Duke of Wellington having mentioned Lord Hill to the King, before his departure for. Vienna."] " The office Is worth about 1,500/. per annum, but the busi ness is constant, and I am 'afraid will render necessary your residence in London during a great period of the year, probably the whole of it." In answer to'this letter Lord Hill addressed one to the Duke of 'Wellington, dated October 21, 1822, in which, after express ing his thanks for the offer of the office that had been made to him, his Lordship says :-- " Under all circumstances, however, I feel that I had better decline the offer. In the first place, I never have been accus tomed to office, and I fear I should but ill perfor m th e busi ness which would he required of me. Secondly, the constant residence in town would not only be unpleasant to me, but I really think the confinement, which I have never been used to, ' would be very injurious to my health." Such was the sinecure which had been offered to Lord Hill, and which Ms Lordship had declined on account of the severity of the ditties. Yes, he who had undergone the arduous fatigues, the hardships, and the dangers of so many campaigns, had de clined to accept of this 'sinecure, because of the hardship of the duty—because the Conatant oe.cupation would be too severe for him, inured as he was to all the toils of the field, and because, hardened as he was by actual aeraice ' it would be injuri ous t o his health. —(Elear !)--This was the sinecure, of the ease of which the Honourable Gentleman had taken so just an esti mate; this was the office to which, because there were no duties to perform, Lord Beresford bad been appointed from corrupt motives and on account of family connexions.— (Cheers.)—But so it was:: the tenourof the Report of the Com missioners was violated. Sentiments were quoted which formed no one part of that Report; and a Nnble'land (Lord Chatham) was ehargedbastily, or without r e fle ct i ng on consequences , w i t h wilful perjury, in the testimony given before those Commis sioners.--ilere the Right lion. Gentleman read the letter of the Duke of Wellington, dated Verona, written immediately after having received the limner letter from Lord Hilt It ran thus:— " Vo, . "My Dear Beresford--Yon are a w ar e that Nov theoffice of Lieut.-General of the Ordnance is vacant, and I wish very much that you would let me know if it would be agreeable to you to fill it.. `s You You must be a ware o f t h e respectability of the office in the military world, and h ow h a I should be to have your assist ance. The, value of th e o ce is fifteen hundred pounds per annum, and the only drawback I know of is the constant occu pation and attendance required in London." Thus he still . went on, this incorrigible hypocrite ! always mentioning the laborious nature of the duties of the office, and been form e d, express l y to serve a purpose th i s the necesaity of a prolong e d res id ence i n town ; as if h i s l etters had prospectively night, which it could never have been in human sagacity to foresee, namely, an answer to the motion of this evening, in affording a proof of the laborious nature of the place (now con tended to be a sinec ure ) out of the mouth of the Duke of Wel ' lington himself. Th en what was the House to think of this false, foul, deliberate, and mischievous calumny, on the best and bravest blood in the land ? Personal merit, public cha meter, tried integrity, long years of faithful service in the path of honour and renown, roust' all be satriAced, and tramplci on, and insulted, to pave the way to the success of a lotion like this. The effect of this motion being carried malitl„bLi that a malignant.. false, and scandalous imputation, woul d be cast on all the parties concerned. The tloverainent of u. country Was Accused, the Duke of ll'ellington ivaa -mot" and the Noble Lord was accused, of being patties to the most ~ corrupt arid disgraceful transactions. But he was en fi ,l t e that as they were now put upon their trial in the eyes o, r t t .' whole nation, they would, to the confusion of their saute , W . , acquitted by the unanimous verdict of their country.--' and continued cheering.) Mr. HUME observed, that he would not.address the flea with the h e at that bad manifested itself in the manner of . the . Right Hon. Gentleman. He hoped it would not be tb,e, l a . 1: motion he should make—(A laugh).--intiarnmalde at t" i i t . Hon. Gentleman appeared. What had. been impilt . ,,l t t a 'ke ' by gentlemen opposite wart false ; personal unwortnier b , had never attributed to lend Beresford ; on the o r had particularly guarded himself on that point. ie fal l , l e ts imputing blame to Lord Iteresfori, he had . offered b I mit , humble mead of praise. The Right Honourable lknt e b t Iflourish about Blenheim and the Master-Generalsilife. he Mr. Hume) could talk of Aralcheren and the Masterff storage, --(llear, hear !)—and let the 'tight Hon. d ens'la t a k i in e sgin h t s ch e a rt h e ge u o .as u t x o g f o ti r k i a i t n . g —( in A e l ,irt a idi t tl i tea g rynit i ,i t one ) s,ti , :, - 1 011,1.,1t1n 1 01e li n ttiti l w i i i e:e s ,cei e r_ii i) irtto o i.ot : lfi ' . c ;u:t_ i tes.e. l l,ll;tec t t.tel l til i o,, g inwr t, ,i,,ll ll ,_, , I : _tiii,alo4-i it the Right Hon. Gentleman had been fl ourishing an d bnogina t ' it Pi ta this eminent individual before the House and that , _ 0 .4 e f , org an o d t ta to lk eo ing si a ti bo er ut th a e ny e t s h p h en ig e b es u t in the t b re i s al s oitior , incon . Right Honourable Gentleman had said his mown s'lo wh o sistent with the recommendation of the Coonnissientm rot, dial, in their belief, the appointment of. a. Liall te ar d Gene was not essential to the constitutio.n of the'''. T yrit Ordnance. Could the Right Honourable Wideman relei the fact, that the report was made in time of wart ? ? „11,e that it the Honourable Gentleman to come back to Perim. rt., was military Commissioners in time of ivar ofrennl ro t bT commendation. He did not upderstand wi t° Was ... probe getting up cases , he was not iti the habit of so tieing, L oo t 1 the Right Honourable Gentleman anti his friends wereniltial home in Pally up cases. Ile wished the rerotoTr4:oo7, of the Commissioners were given at length, by the 1 : 1 1 ;1, Tris• Gentleman, not in garbled extracts. The Hengelo .0.00! surer of the Ordnance had charged him. with tWi + l4 , t i p i ttert , ; to Colonel Chapman, who he represen `:erica ge . - li a tu rP : as the last of his race ; and yet this fir man r h i ' l ;petl e t r ed oat to make room for a young Man Ow ' l3 ' -11 he4'''' r ' WO other heads besides Colonel Cilapirian'A t bt o i. sl)* Horne) is the wretch who alone has done mitlati c i e l t : ; he Lieu t. ' man ! It is not matter of speculation, but of f act s .-1- latter lie''' General having no duties, but in the absence of tile t, o pt bf of the Ordnance, Lord Ileresford Cain only be Moue the tion• Gentleman absence of the Duke of Wellington. be 00e weil L ll Gentleman talk of the arduous ditties of the oe',"' i . 1 00 4 f: head by a moment's idleness. ' Ile ()Ir. IL) we" no s tae' where there were thirteen clerks in 1796, ther e : s ic Afrolu fifti4 six ; and in another instance clerks hod inere . a the Toe. to thirty-one. The establishments in Pall-ln al l l ', / ,; tied 4 .* 1i. 0 „, cost 10,000/. per annum, though he was OR -, o f titt'im" . of that sum had been got rid of. The nisnageiilocll, .0 0 , . Ag; racks was enormous ; we were a country 01 P ° " l %o clerin' :it ' th an e knew l ileum leo ~ , .when he wax talking of' arduous official „, w. t . 4 business came down to these under clerks. 'pre Il es , , I fty.o . d C w oi a n s in s i tu ssa dd ret Dwietpharßnatirement ks.andltreretiltone.reone.ol;tis Man concluded by observing, that our foreign wets rt` P"' . he in sonic degree approved, was becoming olorwoNT! othl Ile a:thbeea d o;e0 hoped p l w home o t: p (1 that it t i ehtyahvieoe beenaeo Right ni inquired'wl l i ti o i n . i t The Gallery was then ordered to be clOreti fa ;,: which however did not take place • nto. , jiligS r * l ! Le 0 1 30.1 jourlike , i Mr. M‘DONALD thought., be . fore a In.ol)('S.'ne °l' ll- the Ilon. Gentleman's should be carried, tbat !„°'„, t h o toP ought to be made into the necetaity of :that'll:le `but against which the motion was directed. lntier i :l l o „ ; bu , t o4 tsances he should readily vote tier such a loP d °s tri a,ens l'' 0 0,C o confessed that from the shape the motion had .. n so me de..a> thew Honourable Members near him Ore l e so th e ' e a embarrassed by the call which had licetittot:;idon ehich wi t i; ' b r e h tL e i y r en know coiningew, e t e called toh at u h p ra o ccolt n v t ol u itiel vote for bowls i r . 1te1 41 1.1,101 w t ; ase s If s io o amuntedec : trained m a a s p c n o ) rre poA c i t ti ly on for iti basis a statement found in the of " rs of ) 11 "bse somepertion of the Rtport, of the Coininissieessoiy, tot th Inquiry, anti therefore it was of all t hinga n.i n t he ta ° o l i tt ) i t io l la rz et, :e :,huel o d f t f h .o e ro C i onmomoipseitiniisoileles;bl:i::ttri woc-tricart:Ciih.le,lirellesini,„itdtWnilleatyiliiiinta‘Ti°l',l.llloo,ln‘ 4.'t.'hidiTteidolltll,fl:,.°l,;(' it rel."lenillg o aelling t' t for i.O , (of . r-teeneral of the O rd n ance alo e 10 1 rel , might be ripht that that re-medellina shoo la taleerti!,llol.lol, c ea ar i e led tli: t l h ie ril iit:„ ot a: Aoo : t h l i: : demoth subject, j n ec i u t s , tl a y :d an th d er to efo ta re k he had not taken place. .111,11wate7`thtt behovedrum, being on thePO" - ' A ► wort it consider l I) i i pubic m whether o nti - ti i t wo u l d .: as e Hon. one i en d e t., n o il hia 3o ll l o o ,nv . person could be ; but, on the o t h er hand , to sot lett 'i 'i ces deserved censure against the head of"' ilr'll t " 6 in " against his alajesty's Gov - the lo' IN ' Pa id/ Government he must to p ce p °l to mittee to enquire into the duties of the Odi c General e of the. Ordnance. If others th`nightrion tot' " i(lraPs; v d the Hon. Geatleman would Wive no ook e f, „ co the motion before the House, at" ! null° ' 'l of Inquiry. Gentlere at, Mr. Secretary CANNING, beffre the 1 10 n; tho ught t'ip Ws reply to the suggestion of his, I°P. riae"."' that he , I ; ; I fair not t owards _ the Hon. Member for itber-e'lliro ste t `' t, fp be exposed to unnecessary mortifteatinth lih Mr ee . „tea Withante/I.lV't, f for one would not consent to the motion ~,- - -I ,e a with ,--,,, fp ;re bringing it forward he might have cons.; ;,,, 0 0 4 g 0 House.—(Cries on the 'proposition which he hau g ` n - o w spe,$ 14 1 1 1; 0 0 ouse.—(Cries of " Spoke, spoke 1)--. 1 , e li e - tieggn l say new q u estio n _(c rie , 07: - rs er were Gallery was then cleared for a t l 7 l ;ken e' cr i ,'",, re-admitted without any_ division havto„" - 1 o ft ae,„'",a,Pr (.°ll.eHetedUTtC°HwliNtbSdOraNwi"sgpolttlett3 in 7:no ." :n'but s e : , o o 9 , t ' His Honourable Friend had contended th a t h ate i 11"tily not to continue in time of peace, which list oon , (le; v 1, 111 i urin g the war. He went along . with till' 11 „ t o r",, ° ,1 . 0 n thus, and thought it was especially neeessa r i f e , ; segr.'d g 1 expenditure or the country at a period of n ot , the' ii, tress like the present, when p er haps we were ' l ' l' ' new contest. Th ' ' i e tsallery was again cleared.- I.lten-unanerseve4l:44°' s . trangers were exeluded, Mr. Al`Dorretoolteit to l e . , _Aniendinent, that a Committee should be , PS„ 010 111 t 1110, 11 ) Intl. the duties; of the Lieutenant -titueral 0 1 "Hoag ,1 ' v . T he Amendment was negatived, And u tbe berl Ore . M . r. 111,7 . Pled o n the original motion, when the 1 1 'i ll lOW* : The oth l e t r it - .., / 3 - ''3o o • - - VI 00. - - - - ~....- ea' p Majority ' Lott he o' i d n ei t .e n d the Chancellor of the lischequer.--11° ; 0 ,1 to be read a second time to-morrow , o n ests , e '' Ilouse • adjourned at Half-patt Y Ten re o'C loelt• O l r L d ' S e r brought ofthe u m: a w ß e i 1 I t t t i i e r n ee uov i „Olt , 0 Ayes N ocs - •• , 4 EII N:INCIIESTER, ter 1 1; 1 1:J3Ru/tit v- 19.--Yrdidierit:ii for W iti) HYDE EAsT, Bart., 151 i t'le-i.,5 fit s inchester, in the room of J A :'0 1 ° 11 5 1 cased his E'"" of Stoneleigh : 111) ",; Y :,. 11 ' ll ' wag , ' sent iti ParliaMent. ',Fiv'tite•lLll qui , ')rnt.Pr.,°"9-ill a very neat ' peed b .) CO3; G „ ~,o ',,,11,AN DOA. and sprontleil 1 1, e e lev; Sir ":,4 F'l : E s q. of ' Kiiinwo _. A f t er to of t o n t Ate roll tsieci'DWAltD.matio most eloquen• c 0 ',,1 a r- , 1 i tors and • company present, wide' of p ol l ) pp auded. It embraced n wide field ' particularly the present state of the is'. oit tri , I , to N O gratulate our ancient city An '' .l :l to lar n e.on Sir EDWARD'S bring retarlitill P4ll and me at, as he is a sotind Consli ttiti°lE lio l Ile i c WI" lately Chief jaStitle ii. l Int iIIP /1" f , ,fila het inome.shome to enjoy the 4i OLIO' '''„ bag ICI his own country. Sir Erve lA nn u- ed 1 4°1 4 Freeman_ o f Winchester between .., - ' L i CO hs!ving been a Ward of the late pul‘e,t'a Corti t 5 o'clock Sir EnviAnn regaled the t he %'„ Lion with lin elegant entertainment 314,0004' Hart . Inn, which was serv'ed 'till." his best manner. VI lee ° Anu tin El. C then he e ' r tinted For Mr. Kemp, : - ' if s 01 YelterdaY' at two o'clock umbers be .. i l tt • sit j For Mr. Nrkin% - ." Al 11 11 7, or Mr. KEMP Wan accordingly -declaretl e t 3 c i. ', 7 tile' - the friends. candidates were "rw3rds 413 r ELE(,TIONS. !