The Sun. — London, England, 1846-03-07 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. LIOUSE OF LORDS, March 6. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at ten minutes past Five o'cl, ck. 11.1.151-1 OUTRAGES. Lord FARNHAM presented a petition signed by the High Sheriff and grand jury of Cavan, in favour of the Government measure for protection to lives sod property in Ireland. CORN-LAWS. The Earl of CARtYARVON presented petitions from Winchester and other places in favour of protection to agricul ture. He had been among the petitioners himself during the last few days, and he could state that they were influenced by very strong feelings on these laws. They were of opinion that the laws affording protection should, in justice to the farmer, be continusd, for they feel that the farmer had difficulties to contend with different from those of any other class in so ciety. These difficulties were principally of a natural kind—changeable seasons, frosts, and other casualties, which no painstaking or intelligent cultivates could by any foresight guard against. They had not as; quick returns for their capital as manufacturers had, and they were consequently desirous to have a more fixed and certain remune ration for their industry. hey very touch deprecated the measure recently introduced into the other House of Parlia ment, which they considered as being neither in conformity with the political sagacity of the Noble Duke, the original policy of the Government, or the opinions of the late Secretary of the Colonies, whom they considered as well qualified as any other Noble Lord to decide what measures were best calculated to be advantageous to the country. PROTECTION OF LIFE (IRELAND) BILL. Lord BROUGHAM wished to make an observation on the measure about to be introduced by the Noble Earl (St. Ger man?). He thought such a measure should be discussed in Chief the presence of his Noble and Learned Friend the Lord _ Justice. It was impossible fir the Noble and Lea rned Lord to be in town till Saturday, and he could then remain till Monday evening. The Earl of WICKLOW said his Noble and Learned Friend Friend had appointed this day for the discussion of the but now it appeared that the Lord Chief Justice would not be in town till Monday. The LORD CHANCELLOR thought it was necessary that the opinions of the Lord Chief Justice should be knomn on such a measure. Earl ST. GERMANS was in the hands of the House. The Marquie of LANSDOWNE thought that the recom mittal of the Bill would enable the Lord Chief Justice to ex press his opinions. The Marqnis of CLANRICARDE said he would propose that the duration of the Bill should be limited to five years. Indeed he thought that even that period would be too long, and he would rather prefer that it should be for only one year. It was a measure of a very strong character, and one the working of which they could form no opinion of whatever. Upon the duration of the Bill would entirely depend whether he should form one of the Committee. Earl GREY said it would be a great inconvenience to many Nob'e Lords to have this measure postponed. No doubt it would be very desirable to hare the assistance of the Lord Chief Justice, but as that could be had in the future stages of the Bill it would be well to proceed now, as he was desirous of bringing on his amendments. Earl St. GERMANS said he was quite willing to adopt that course. He would first proceed to state the amendments proposed by her Majesty's Go vern ment seriatim, and then they could be discussed afterwards. One amendment he had to propose was one suggested by a Noble Friend of his, a Member of the other House, Lord Clements, which was that the Act should have a retrospective effect; that was to say, that in all ca es of districts now under a state of proclamation the Lord Lieutenant would have it in his power to charge the expenses incurred by such proclamation upon that district. This would have the ef fect of enforcing a pecuniary penalty upon any district in a state of disturbance. The next clause was one to limit the duration of the Act :—" And be it enacted, that this Act shall continue and be in force for five years from and after the passing thereof, and to the end of the then next session of Parliament, and may be amended or repealed by any Act to be passed in the present session of Parliament." It was intended also, that a petty sessions should be held in the disturbed districts, at least once in every week. Ile would now pro ceed to the amendments proposed by the Lord Chief Justice. The first of those related that no proclatnationTshould be issued, unless the requirement to the Lord Lieutenant were signed by three acting justices of the peace in the county. He (Earl St. Germans) thought it would be desirable that the whole responsibility of these proclamations should rest ou the Executive Government. He considered that the Executive Government should not screen itself behind the authority of any one, and that magistrates should not be needlessly required to place themselves in a state of considerable personal danger. Some prevision might be inserted to remedy the delay occa s ion e d i n th e i ssu i ng of these proclamations, but he did not conceive that any amendment to a greater extent was necessary. He did not, propose to adopt the amendment of the Noble and Learned Lord in this instance, or to introduce any other in its room. The object of the second amendment of the Noble Lord was, no doubt, to re medy any delay that might take place with the man who might be charged with crime. He had, however, some diffi culty in adopting the amendment. The magistrates would be placed by it in an invidious position, for the individual so charged might be his own tenant. To meet that diffi nilty the measure provided that a petty sessions should be held every week at each of the disturbed districts. If the man appre hended gave a satisfactory account of himself he would be at once liberated ; but if not, they would have the power of pro ceeding as the circumstances of the case seemed to require. He would now come to the amendments of the Noble Lord opposite (Cottenham). With respect to them he must say, that so far as cases of misdemeanor were concerned, they might be effective enough, but the case of murder was left wholly untouched by them. He did not wish to discuss the subject at present, but ho repeated that the Noble Lord who had proposed this measure should have brought it in as a ge neral Bill. He now came to the amendment proposed by the Noble Lord to dispense with the punishment of transportation for the (silence of being out after nightfall. That punishment would be the only vindication of this measure. If the measure were considered as necessary, the question was, what was the amount of punishment necessary to deter persons from the commission of these offences? It was impossible that any fixed or unalterable rule should be laid down with regard to it, but it should he left to the Legislature to determine the pu nishment for each particular offence. He was able to ask with confidence every Noble Lord in that House, who was at all connected with Ireland, whether the punishment above all other most dreaded by the criminals of Ireland was not trans portation ? and, therefore, looking at the subject as a mere question of humanity, would it net be better to make one or two examples ? It would produce more effect than any other sort of punishment, if criminals were to be summarily trans ported, and removed at once from the dock to the transport ship. Those who were imprisoned returned to their homes when their term was expired without being in any way deterred from the commission of fresh offences. In the year 1835, Mr. O'Connell had said that there were parts of this Bill of which he entirely approved. He thought that no person resident in the disturbed districts should be allowed to go from his home after nightfall without giving a sufficient reason for his ab sence, as by that means many offences would be prevented. It was a calumny to say, that in giving that approval he took away from the just liberty of the subject, for it would only have the effect of preventing the people from committing crimes and outrages deserving of punishment. These were the opinions of Mr. O'Connell in regard to the disturbances in Ireland. Ile (the Earl St. Germans) considered that unless measures were taken to prevent parties going out at night, so long would they be unable to prevent the occurrence of crime. And further, he considered that unless there was a dispropor tion between the punishment and the crime the evil would not be remedied. Mr. O'Connell said in 1834, that this Bill (re ferring to the measure then propoted) was calculated to meet an exceeding great evil, those midnight disturbances, which related not alone to agrarian questions, but which affected the whole face of society. lie considered it was no infringement of public liberty to prevent persons from going out at night who . had no lawful business, but who rather, if permitted, were bent on inflicting injury upon their fellows. If this re striction we,e judiciously carried out, it would exercise a most salutary and beneficent influence on Ireland. Such were the opinions of Mr. O'Connell in 1834 and 1835. The restriction was not intended against the welhdisposed, hut against per sons nho were about to engage in evil practices, and which there wan no means of retie: ing at present ; the great diffi culty being to get evidence against persons who Crete of readnight outrages. To meet this difficulty the present pro vision was proposed. If innocent parties were taken up ender it, they would be discharged by the magistrate ; or, if suspi cion was against them, they would be referred to a higher tribu nal, where. iffaultless, t hey would be allowed togo free ; if guilty, then would they, and deservedly, be subjected to punishment. His really could not believe that those Netile Lord: who wished to withuld [nom the Judges of 1113 land the powers proposed by the Bill, understood the state of crime in that country, which se endangered life and properly. He held in his hand a me ram i-1 to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, from the magistrates of the county of Ti:'perary. It prayed that Govern= tit mule bri, g in a law which seculd condi:se to tbe cahey of life anti property in Irel an d. It st a ted that so daring had the evil dis• posed become that the most fi ightful outrages were committed in the broad day, without respect to name or creed. The me morial went on to show hoar necessary it Ives that some stringent measure shritOrl be, brought into force to put an end to such friehtful acts. The declaration went '.n to state that intimidation had reached such a beielm that people in an humble c'ass of life could not be induced to give evidence ; that it was not to the number of crimes, but their character, the memo rialists directed attention; that it was not the lives of landlords that were in danger, but the peasants' hut was the scene of murder; and that ejectment from land was not the cause of outrage, bat the most trivial occur rence wan made a cause for outrage. That document (con tinued the Noble Lord) was signed by Lord Dunally, a noble man well known in this House, a resident landlord, and one of extremely liberal politics. indled he (Earl St. Germans) looked upon t his measure as by no means sufficient to meet the exigency ef the case—it would rather fall short of it ; but her 'tY's Onvernment (lid net wish to enforce any measure of a s t r ength beyond what was absolutely necessary. As this was a subject of hear him SN ith great importance, he trusted the House %v,lid Noble I.. o n f rdntoh s patienceread while be read another document. The a memorial from th e gran d j ur y of the county which was to the ear. effect at summer ass,zes, 1815, the county Tipperary. f i fe t et as that from the m a g i s trates of document was signed by the O'Conor Don, and he need not remind th e i r L or d s hi p th a t he was not a person to exam.,a the e v il. li e wou ld rea d to their Lordship , another documertitrY from the C a ine c o unty, f rom jury the High Sheriff and the grand at the last a ss i zes . Th e document was similar in submarmeto the one first r ea d. Thi s was signed by a gentleman named Te and by Mr. Fi.zstephen French, the Member f or t.t?nY"e read these documents to show the House that gentlemencoun ty. He had in eolitical opinions from the Government had taantheffering view that they did, and had urged the Government to b sa r me forward a measure to give protection to life and igeger i t n g y. Their Lordships had, no doubt, been shocked, Klieg they read of the attempt to assassinate two gentlemen, a l ate Member of the other House, and one of the best landlords in Ireland. Ile would read a letter received by him fruit the office cf the Chef Secretary for Ireland. The Noble Lord read the letter, which - stated that the attempt at a•sassination had lie. n made sLithin feur miles of Lineriele, and at (even o'clock in the cvening, when ne ethers of pernms were on the road. The gentlemen, w'ime hers were astempleil, were Sir David Roche an.l Sif E.L1t1:111 Was chi:; a state of things last might longs to ?Is as alesoiuteev necessary teamsome stringent me,sures shoull histak , "n• N°' l''ng could be close painful to him than to mend up am! props-: any measure, which would ten ! to ahritige the hherlies of the peoele. Eat it was the fist duty of tine State so take stud! ere; as might be deemed expedient for the protection of life and prop erty. Lord BRO :IG;-1 A NI said, that a feellne of shame was created when they heard that portions of their fellow country men were leading lives so detestable as these unhappy victims of delusion, who thought they nod a right to rnmsacre their landlords for making a lee fur and righteous use of their own property. He did net mean to say one word counter to the statements of the Noble Lord. Ile believed the different sta.tements received from tics grand juries and lieutenants were quite correct. They w e r e , th ere f ore , all ago eed that some effi eaimi s measure was required to repress the crime which so awfully abounded in that unhappy c ou nt r y, an d t o ma k e i t , as he said on a former evening, habitable—t•) make it suitable for the residence o f peaceabe s i and yet at the same timeohi 'elates. o They might d o a ll th a t, not a measure befitted i n a l l it op t inion that it was eessities of the case. m ip e f po p s to meet th is ne se ar. I US amend e nd- ments because the Lord Chief Justice had objected to confine the measure to Ireland and to misdemeanours. He consented, however, to postpone the consideration of his amendment till a future time, wl en he proposed to bring them forward as part of a more general measure. He did not think that the best way to deal with the amendments was to take them all into consideration together. The accused person had in this case to make out his own statement—he had to tell his own story. And, if he satisfied the sessions, or the magistrate, as the case might be, he was to be discharge 1. If he did not satisfy them, he was to he committed for trial at the discretion of the magis Crates. That was in his opinion a great improvement, but whether it amounted to so great an improvement or safeguard as to render transportation unnecessary, was quite another qaestion. While he was on his legs, he would say one word upon transportation, as that punishment had great weight in Ireland. He had heard fram pe. sons from all parts of the United Kingdom, that the fear of that infliction had a great effect in deterring the people from the commission of crime. He also wished to suggest another matter, which did not require to be brought forward in the shape of a.Bill. He held it to be of the utmost importance that any person who for any offence should have been sen tenced in Ireland to transportation, should not have any inter val between the sentence and its execution. The person or csnviet should be sent at once from the dock to the vessel, and that would have more the effect of overawing the criminals and deter:ing them from the commission of like afences for the time to come, than double the punishment not accom panied with that celerity of execution. God forbid that the convict should be hurried away to New South Wales or Van Diemen's Land before the Crown had time to exercise its pre rogative of mercy ; but he still thought that such a course would have a prodigious effect in increasing the fears of crimi nals. They all knew what had happened in Yorkshire some twenty years age. There was a conspiracy between a father and his daughter to charge a person with rape. That was carried into effect. in the morning. Between nine and ten o'clock they gave their evidence on the trial. By ten o'clock both judge and jury saw the necessity of a verdict of acquittal, as there was perjury in the case. The judge who presided asked if the grand jury had been d:scharged, and, on being told that they were not, he desired them to consider the case of the father and daughter. The grand jury sent in their bill at eleven o'clock, the prisoners were tried at twelve, and by three they were on their way from the gaol in a cart, in the beginning of the execution of their sentence. Every one who knee( the northern circuit would admit, that for the next three circuits the effects of the promptitude of this punish ment had a salutary effect in diminishing the amount of crime. He mentioned that fact as he only wished to show the great and salutary effects produced by promptitude in the inflection of punishment. He wished also that the Executive Government would take care that when a murder had been committed, the old practice of executing the sentence as near as possible to the scene of crime should be revived. He knew the bad effect of the present principle in Lancashire where the executions took place at the end of the county, probably distant from the scene of the crime, and the Westmoreland peasant had the sight, bat not an example. He would only say, in conclusion, that if these suggestions were followed the effect would be a di minished amount of crime. Their Lordships then went into Committee on the Bill. On the first clause being read, Lord BROUGHAM referrad to the amendments in this clause which the Lord Chief Justice (who was absent) had in tended to propose. He Lord Brougham could not agree to the proposition that the testimony of three magistrates should be required before a district was declared. if they waited till three magistrates sent up evidence of a district being in a state of disturbance they might fail in very mans instances. Lord CLANRICARDE entirely agreed in the opinion that the declaring of a district should be left to the Lord Lieu tenant. Lord BROUGHAM thought that the interference of three magistrates would in many cases operate injuriously. The Lord CHANCELLOR made a reference to the Act. 3 and 4, Wm. the Ii ~ in respect to this point, the applicatien of which we did not understand from the low tune in which his Lordship spoke. Tice Earl of WICKLOW remarked, that as the Lord Chief Justice would not be present till next week, and as the feeling of the House appeared to be against the adoption of his amend ment, he thought it would not be fair to wait for him. Lord BROUGHAM said his Noble and Learned Friend did not stipulate for three magistrates being required to depose as to the state of a district before it was declared. All that he wanted was, some better foundation for proceedings than those in the present Lord COTTENHA NI was of opinion that the matter would be hest left in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant. The cause was agreed to, as were also clauses 3,4, and 5. On clause 6 being read, Lord CLANCARTY observed, that the Noble Lord who had introduced the measure had complained of the very great (I,lficulty in getting witnesses to come forward when any crime had been committed. There was no doubt that individuals who came forward to give their evidence were exposed at times to very great danger. It was not, however, so much the dread of personal harm that prevented witnesses coming forward, as it was the fear of having attached to them ha stigma of being considered as informers. It was a very dir ferent thing to give evidence in Ireland from what it was in England. He would earnestly propose to her Mejesty's Go vernment that powers should be given to the local magistrates to compel vi et amnia persons to come forward whom they be lieved were competent as witnesses. Lord CAMPBELL was of opinion that the law had already provided for the difficulty which the Noble Lord had com plained of. A witness might be compelled to come forward, and even be detained in custody until the trial should come on at the assizes. He was also liable to be punished with fine and imprisonment if he neglected to appear when called on. He believed that all the law could do had already been done to provide for the case. After a few words from Lord WICKLOW, the clause was ordered to stand part of the Bill. On clause 7 being read, a long conversation, inaudible in the gallery, ensued between Lord Cottenham, the Lord Chan cellor, and Lord Campbell, after which the clause was made part of the Bill. Clause 8 was next proposed, when The Marquis of WESTMEATH considered that the remu neration to persons who might be injured should not be paid until the amount had been levied on the county which was li able to pay, and that it should not be paid out of the consoli dated fund. He hoped the clause would be altered to the effect he proposed before it was made part of the Bill. Lord MONTE AG LE ebjected altogether to any such alter ation being made. The consolidated fund was contributed to equally as much by Ireland as by England. The Marquis of WESTMEATH withdrew his amendment, and the clause was ordered to stand part of the Bill. Earl GREY believed that it would be neither fair, proper, nor just, that the landlords of Ireland should be exonerated from paying their share of the expenses incurred in prosecutions. He thought also that the present dreadful state of the Irish people would never have existed if the landlords of Ireland had done their duty to the people under them. He should alto gether object to clauses 13 and 14. The Earl of RODEN, with some warmth, said that if the Noble Earl intended to state that the evils with which Ireland was afflicted arose from the neglect of the landlords, or from any impropriety o n th e i r p ar t, h e (L or d R o d en ) s h ou ld feel it his duty, by as direct a contradiction as was consistent with the rules of the House, to deny the veracity of any such assertion. The Earl of FARNHAM would also deny the Noble Earl's assertion. All the harm he wished the Noble Earl for the re mark was that he might be an Irish landlord, and be obliged to undergo the painful task of residing on his estate. Earl GREY explained, that possibly he had spoken with too much warmth. A great change had taken place in the treatment by the landlords of their tenants. The present evils with which Ireland was afflicted were perhaps mainly attri butable to the past history of that country. The state of things now existing there was the direct consequence of the dereliction of the former landlords in their duties to the people. —( Cries of " No, no.") It was an historical fact, with which not only England, but all the world, was acquainted, and all that the Noble Lords opposite might say or do would not make the fact less true. The Earl of WICKLOW was of opinion that the present condition of Ireland wan owing to the gross mismanagement of this country. He admitted that a great charge had taken place, but he would protest against the histcrical facts which the Noble Earl had employed. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was opposed to the intro duction of the clauses to which his Noble Friend had objected. Nix, he asserted that these murders were committed by strangers frequenting the country, and who were concealed, partly from a general feeling of hcepitality prevailing through nut the country, and partly he was afraid from a secret con nivance.—( Hear, hear. ) Lord CLANCARTY observed that the Noble Marquis had rightly stated the source of these lawless assassinations, and it principle. He wanted to know if any Noble Lord in that House would give the Lord Lieutenant power to transport a man supposed to be of a dangerous character. He was sore that no Nolie Lord would grant such a power. They were too much imbued by English feelings to do so. If they were really to transport a man for his bad character, better for them to do so avowedly on that ground ; and there ought to be a searching inquiry into his character. Let him suppose the case of a lover, or that of a man going to see his priest, and that either of them were suspected to be going to joist a party of White boys, who were to meet that night ; and were accordingly ar • rested. The coincidence of rucli a rneeting (in case there was one) would be certain to condemn them before a jury. These were the suspicious circumstances which the Noble Lord thought justified the passing of such a clause. He did not distrust the judges of the land, who were to try the parties, but ha would a,ls how could the , judges pronounce upon character? How could they proceed. Was there to be a public investigation ? It seemed to him quite impossible that such a mode of pro ceeding could be justified. A man perfectly innocent came as much within the reach of the Bill as the most guilty, and such a man might be condemned to the severest punishment, and not only himself, but all depending on hint. Ile thought it monstrous that their Lord hips would sante ion such a clause. Let him suppose a man evicted from his land under the clear ance system, and that he expressed those feelings which hid been.ntertained by such a man 13 long as human nature was what it was—if, under such circumstances, although innocent and ueoffending, the actual victim of oppres ion was trans ported fur his expression of strong feeling, would it not be most monstrous?—(Hear, hear.) The system would also have the effect of lowering the character of the police in Ireland, inasmuch as it would create a system of espionage de grading to that body, and calculated to impair thi it efficiency. ' If the law was to give this power to the police, it would utterly destroy the liberty of the subject. Neither did he think this power should be given to the local magistracy, though he had a great respect fur them, without its being greatly abused. They were to have communication with the Lord Lieutenant, but he had no more means of knowing the character of the man than the Judge. 'The accused party, if convicted, was to be sent from the dock to the ship, and therefore what power or means of appeal to the Lord Lieutenant had he ? These were the reasons that influenced him in making objection to this clause. If it was the object of the Bill to enforce obedience to the pro clamation, surely twelve menths' imprisonment, with hard labour, would be ample punishment for being out at night. If a more stringent clause were required, let it be inserted, but let it be so worded as not to endanger the liberty of an inno cent man, and perhaps the lives of his family. No man was more opposed to agrarian outrage than he was; but there were ample means of framing clauses to meet such cases as men being found wandering about at night with arms con cealed about their persons, or other suspicious circumstances. What was the real cause of this system of agrarian outrage ? What was the bottom of it all? They all knew it was the rooted hatred of the poor to the law, the result of long ages of gross misgovernment ;'and they had been told by high autho rity that in Ireland there was one law for the rich and an other for the poor, and long ages of misrule had con vinced him of the fact ; and in order to eradicate that feeling would they pass such a measure as this ? Would these cases of oppressiou which he had pictured, and which it would be impossible to avoid under this Bill tend to eradicate this feeling? ‘Vould it not rather tend to increase the evil, and exasperate the feelings of the people? Would it not rather be better to rely on the ordinary law of the lend ? He knew he would be met by the argum •nt" that this was no new measure. But that was an additional reason why he would oppose it, because such measures never had any other effect in Ireland than to create a worse feeling amongst the people of that country against the Government by which they were ruled. He begged to apologise for having trespassed upon the House so long, but he would now conclude by proposing that the sentence should be twelve mouths' imprisonment instead of transportation. Earl WICK LOW said he conceived that there was no class of the community in Ireland who would more rejoice at the passing of this clause than the peasantry of Ireland, the very elms for whom the Noble Earl had made so pathetic a speech. Ile ( Lord Wicklo AO admitted this clause was a severe one; but, though similar acts had been enforced before, he never heard of icase of such hardship and tyranny as the Noble Earl had been so pathetically describing. In answer to the Noble Earl's pathetic speech, he (Lord Wicklow) begged to refer the House to the speech of a great statesman, Lord Grey, who in 1833 introduced a similar measure, the severity of which he lamented, but he said that its very severity was its best security. This present Bill made a misdemeanour a transport able offence, and the Bill of Lord Grey contained a clause pre cisely similar. The Lord CHANCELLOR and Lord CAMPLELL said that Lord Grey's Bill contained no such clause. Earl WIC.KLOW continued to say that he considered this Bill would be useless without this clause, and therefore he would oppose the amendment. Lord CAMPBELL said that the Bill of 1833 made the in timidation of witnesses a transportable offence. ; but the b?ing out at night was made simply a misdemeanour, without de ' fining any punishment beyond fine and imprisonment. The Noble Lord then read the clauses he alleded to, the words of which bore oat his statements. He then continued to say that in the pres , nt 13111 no distinction whatever was made between the offences, and therefore he should say that so far this Bill had been most unhappily framed. The offences of intimidating a juryman or a witness, or being out armed were transportable offences ; but no distinction was made between those offences. and that of simply being out at:night, perhaps upon his lawful business. So that a man being out at night, unarmed, or banded, but " under suspicious circumstances," as the Bill had it, was to be transported for fifteen years. The Noble Lord then read a supposed case, upon which a form of indictment had been framed, and contended that a document so loosely worded should not be permitted to exist. A man might be out upon an affair of gallantry or some other matter which was not upon a " lawful cccasion", but yet it might be found difficult to prove that it was unlawful. He (the Noble Lord) did not believe that the present measure was the proper cure for the malady that prevailed in Ireland; for they could not make the law more respected by leaking it more cruel and unjust. He trusted that, on consideration, they would come to the conviction that their object would be better attained by acceding to the amendment of the Noble Earl. Agrarian outrages were condemned by every man in the country, and by no man more strongly than Mr. O'Connell, who had ever set his face against such.—( Hear, hear.) And he should then say if the Bill passed in its present form it would have the effect of aggravating, rather than correcting, the evils complained of.—( Hear, hear.) Lord BROUHAM said he had attended to the arguments of Noble Lords on both sides, and he should confess that, in hi: opinion, the subject had been approached with an absence of all party feeling.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") But after having given the fullest consideration which he could to the arguments, he was forced to admit that he was entirely in favour of the Bill without the amendment. In his opinion some of his Noble Friends had been led away by their feelings on the occasion, and had not sufficiently attended to what the nature of the power intended to be bestowed on the Government really was. His Noble Friend who had moved the amendment, all along affirmed that the very venial offence of being out an hour after sunset was a misdemeanour, and punishable by transportation. But it was not for so venial an offence that he was liable to transporta tion, but for an offence which he (Lord Brougham) considered by no means venial—being out under sus picious circumstances, and not on lawful, and there fore on unlawful, occasions—the law having declared that public security required that he should not be out on such unlawful occasions. —(Hear, hear.) Now there had been a distinction sought to be drawn between what was a moral and what was a legal offence. Now, he (Lord Brougham) could not at all conceive the difference, as a well disposed subject should ever consider that what was opposed to law was opposed to right, and, consequently, to morality. Again, a man was not to be transported fur fifteen years for so venial an offence as Noble Lords imagined; for the Court was armed with a power to examine whether he was out on lawful business or under suspicious circumstances,— (Hear, hear.) What better security, he wished to ask, could there be, than that the Judge before whom the man would be tried would go into the particulars of the case, and direct the jury as to the nature of the offence ? And then, even though he should be found guilty of being out under suspicious circumstances, the same judge would mete out such punishment as, under all the circumstances of the case as proved before him, should appear to him to be just. —( Hear, hear.) If the man hap pened to be out under circumstances of a very mischievous nature always taking into account the tate of the neighbourhood or locality and that he was proved to be a man of good character, would not that go into the jury-box in his favour ?—( Hear, hear.) And was it not certain that the sentence of the Court would be perhaps _ _ would be their duty to avail themselves of the machinery which a day, or two days imprisonment, or perhaps a fine of five shit that Bill would afford them to relieve the poor people from th e lings ?—( H ea r, hear.) It had been asked, " ashy wer e not the support of that class of vagrants. He would wish the Noble suspicious circumstances defined?"—(" Hear, hear," from Earl Earl were a little oftener present at the inquiry then going o n Grey.) Now his answer to that was because it would be im with reference to the Irish poor. law, as he anticipated much possible to define them : for instance, one man being seen with good would be t ffeeted• from his knowledge of Irish affairs. a bludgeon, might be no great crime, but when 60 or 60 men He had been instrumental in putting the Noble Earl's name armed with bludgeons were seen together, would not such be upcn the Committee, but as yet they hal gained but little an aggravation of circumstances ?--(Hear, hear.) In reference from his intcligence. to the mixing up of agrarian outrage with landlord tyranny, he Earl GREY said that he told the Noble Lord distinctly that (lewd Brougham) should say they were questions that should it would not be in his power to attend, and yet, in spite of that not be mixed together, for every such consideration weakened communication, he persevered in placing his name upon the the efficacy of the measure for the suppression of crime. Let Committee. He had attended the first few days, as it was in the people be ever so iniseoverned, that gave them ne right to go his power, but since that time it was utterly impossible that out in mobs and make life insecure and property valu e l ess i n th a t he could attend. ill-fated and unhappy part of the empire.—( Hear, hear.) The consideration of clause 15 was then postponed. When the time came for considering the grievances under which Earl GREY felt it his duty to move an amendment on the agricultural population laboured, he would be as ready as the 16th clause. That clause made it an offence, transportable any Noble Lord to enter into the question, but he felt disinclined for, fifteen years, for a person to be out of his house to mix the questions at present—( Hear, hear)—and he there an hour after sunset. Now they must Ncollect fore felt it his duty to support the measure, in doing which he that this was a trifling police offence, and by no means involving could not avoid saying that he was giving his support to a the breach of any moral principle ; he, therefore, would move measure infinitely less stringent than the one which he (Lord that the punishment should be limited to imprisonment for one Brougham) had the honour to present to their Lordships fur year. It seemed to him that the power which was proposed acceptance. It was true, there was this severity in the present to be conferred, and not now for the first time, upon the measure that did not exist in his Bill, namely, the making mis executive Government of Ireland, was one which should not demeanour a transportable offenoe ; yet he could not help say be conferred unless under the most extraordinary circum- hag,* that in his opinion, the court-martial clauses in his Bill stances. He might be told that the care for which su c h a were decided the most important clauses in the measure, and clause wee intended was one which called for so severe a pun- fully justified his anticipation, as not a single man was tried ishment. Ile did not, however, consider that the circum- under them, so great was the terror which they inspired.-- stances of Ireland presented any such case as that. He was of (Hear, hear. ) opinion that the personal liberties of the inhabitants ofwa pro- The Marquis of CLANRICARDE considered that if the claimed district should not be so fettered as that they would amendment proposed by the Noble Earl (Earl Grey) be obliged l o st a y within their cabins from about four or five in were carried, that the Government would be armed with no the afternoon of a December day till half past eight the follow- more than the ordinary power. As to teaching people to ing morning ; and that they would not set their foot out of respect the law, such could not be done by letting them see, their miserable cottages during a period of sixteen hours year after year, that by a combined effort they could defeat it, without subjecting themselves to these severe penalties. A and overreach the constituted authorities.—( Hear, hear.) peasant may notvisit his friend—rosy not go to his work, without They argued on this matter as if the law were to be universally running the risk of being arrested by a policeman, and afterwards applied all over Ireland, but their Lordships should recollect. being obliged to prove (what no man could prove) that his that its operation was limited to the disturbed districts; and no intentions were free front criminality. It was said by the honest man, he would undertake to say, would in such a dis- Noble Lord that the clause was necessary, and that it only trict be found out of his house after sunset. The really good applied to perssns who were found under suspicious circum- effect of the measure would be, that while it inspired honest stances. He could not, however, consent that it sh o uld ever men with confidence in the power of the Government, it at come into operation in any of those disturbed districts, and no the same time struck terror into the hearts of the evil-disposed arguments that he had heard could induce him to come to a by the severity of its' clauses. If the amendments of the Noble different conclusion. Was it to be supposed that their Lord- Earl were, however, acceded to, the Bill would be so weak ships were t o pass a l aw o f suc h unexam pled severity, bec ause ened i n it s o p era ti o n that it would be comparatively useless. a toPman, forgetful, perhaps, of the enac:rnent, should wish The very papers read by the Noble Lord who had introduced relieve the tedium of a sixteen hours' confinement in his the measure were a satire upon the imbecility of the Executive miserable cottage by going out to breathe the fresh air, tt.at, Government, and formed the very best indictment that could f.,r such a venivaletfl. ; ransportcci to a enee, he should subject himself to be be drawn up against them. If Government had long ere that utterly shocking to ev s e - r -ttlement for fifteen years. It was so time assumed a Ligher tone, if they hail brought the power of • should the Bill come befo y re . for i c e ,n ir Lordsl• 1113' principl e of natural justice, that, the executive to bear upon the disturbed portions of Ireland, inserted in it, be House with that the evils they were then considering , would have had ne exist clauseto it. He might be told that e 'it wo'ld "Y' " Not content" once. He should oppose the amendments of the Noble Earl. men, but to vicious and insubtirdinatteli p d e nnt apply to peaceable Lord COTTEN HAM said that the Noble Earl, by his only whe were found in what was called suspicious and that those i amendments, did not wish to rescind the clause to which the u)licious circum - amendments applied; all he wanted was to limit in some degree stances," would coma under its influence' What, t. he would the punishment of . offences. The first object cf society was of ask, were suspicious circumstances ? He wishe know how course to secure life and property, and the only question was, they could distinguish between two men who were found out, therefore, how they were best to do so. When this Coercion one upon a re ally useful occa ion, and an other who was in: Bill was first introduced it was proposed to make it a perma iluenced by improper motives? He would take two instances. vent law for Ireland, but it was now considered only as an ex go Suppese one man, i ng out for the purpose of visitinn, his traordi nary ex;ed i ent to remedy an extraordinary state of sick friend, and anoth er g oin g to join a party of Whitetoys, things. With renard to the particular clause in question, el and suppose both arrested by a policeman, what differ. th oug h h e woul.l not deny f or a momen t th a t thi s was a res'ric ence, he would ask, cou ld be found in the external circumstances tion on the liberty of the subj •et, still if the peace of Ire that one man was . influenced by m il a n n - land Th l s required it, the Government were right to persevere. to justify them' in saying precaution, appca,ed to adopted was a measure proper motives, and that the other was innocent ?' No amendments could pronounce upon the human heart , and therefore it would i prev e nting offences , ofl thim,.however, that the Theyof a n t the de e h tohualtd Noble Lord I be impossible, with any . regard to justice, to say under such 1 punishent, as provided by the original Bill w w a r s heim u le n e m mo e bn r ee c wr if mot u hu l aa l d y nt circumstances who was innocent or who as guilty. The mere i severe. and that the am ! that there were gradations in crime, fact of a man being out at night was not a crime, and . could : meet the exigencies of the case . not justify such a severe punishment. He had heard it stated out of the House that there was a mode of de tectin g a man— I might be out of his house after sunset for the wor s t o f pur that his character would criminate him. If that was really the pos es, another manmight b e also out f or p urposes comparatively innocent. The introduction of the words i. un d er sus pi c i ous ground on which they proposed to go, it was a most dangerous circumstances," into the clause, was a great improvement. 1 The Noble Lord who had last spoken, had referred to the terror ! which would be induced by this measure, and adduced it as an argument for giving extended powers to the executive Govern ment. But the same argument would apply in every case where Government demanded extraordinary powers. He did not feel disposed to dispute the propriety of arming the Go vernment with these extended powers, but he yet felt that the amendments proposed by the Noble Earl were improvements upon the original measure, and he should, therefore support their adoption. Lord AIONTEAGLE said that if this were a question of law, he should consider it presumptuous indeed in him to rise after the Noble Lord who had last spoken. But although he disclaimed all idea of vying with his Noble Friend in legal knowledge, he thous ht that as regarded a knowledge of Ireland he was better inf emed than the Noble Lord who Kati sup potted, or the Noble Earl who had moved the amendments. There could be no more painful position than for a person con nected, as he himself was, with Ireland, to rise for the purpose of advocating the enforcement of strong penal measurea and nothing but the strongest sense of duty could have induced him to come so prominently forward. If he were mistaken in sup porting coercive measures, he had same satisfaction in htokine to the past history of Ireland, far he found that, if err he did, he erred in good company ; he erred in the society of the best and wisest that country had ever produced—men who were warmly attached to popular institutions. and strenuous in de fence of civil liberty. He could not look to that question as if it were brought before the House for the first time He found Lord Plunkett advocating surh a measure both in and out of office. teir ohn Newport took the same course ; but the greatest name of all remained to be mentioned. In respect of this very measure, Henry Grattan, when at the height of his popularity, and at the hazard of his life, came forward to support it. He, the creator of Irish independence, the friend and leader of the Irish people, in a British House of Parliament did not hesitate to Aive his aid to the passing of a coercive measure. That measure, too, was infinitely strenger than the present one. Every day added a new crime to the dark catalogue which dis grafted the country. He would call their Lordships' attention to the fact, that the concealment of crime in Ireland did not arise from any desire to oppose the law—it arose from intimida tion. If they relet red to the testimony of Sir John Davis, they would find that there were no people more imbued with the love of justice than the Irish. The rich had much greater protection afforded to them than the poor, and it was for the purpose of affording them the safety to which they were entitled that he rose to defend that Bill. No person contested the principle of the measure; his Noble Friend had admi , ted it, and the only question was as to the duration of the punishment. and he would meet all the arguments which had been urged against the Bill by this assertion, of which no one could deny the complete justness, namely, that they were bound to adopt such a modicum of justice as would render the measure t free tire. He could show that the sentence of imprisonment for three years would be more cruel than transportation, and that transportation would be more effective for carrying out the objects of the Bill. Yet there was another fact which he would impress upon their Lordships, that this was by far the mildest and most uneonstitutional measure that ever was proposed for the adoption of Parliament. Mr. Grattan's Bill committed the trial to the bench of magistrates, arid that without the benefit of a jury. By the present Bill the case would be submitted to a judge of the land, a tribunal which it must be admitted was tar more constitutional than the bench of magistrates, inflamed as they might be by the transactions oc curring around. But the result of the punishment by imprison ment would be this, the criminal would return from the gaol an adept in every kind of lawless violence, particularly if he were disposed to any of those offences before his punishment. He could never give a vote on any suhjecl more painful to his feelings than on the present occasion, as hewas unwillin g to be considered the supp or t er o f a measure , w hi c h wou ld tend to the restriction of the liberties of his country ; but having a strong conviction on his mind, that by limiting the peri RI of punish ment they would deprive the measure of its efficacy, he did not consider that it would be just or manly to give a silent vote. Lord LONGDALE observed that there was no question made as to the principle of the Bill, mir was there any inten tion to offer it any obstruction, but the offence which it created was one of degree, and admitting of every variety of mitiga tion. The question, therefore appeared to him to be whether they should have the same punishment for each degree, or whether the punishment was to be limited by the description of the offence ? now he did think the latter was the most rea sonable point to view the question. Earl Li REY said that n s one year had been considered to be too short a period by his Noble Friend, he was quite willing to alter it to two. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that as it did not seem to be generally understood, he would take that opportunity of stating that it was the intention of the Government to limit the period of trawpartation from fifteen to seven years. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE would have no objection to voting for the Bill, provided it were limited. He would ask to what length of time it was proposed to extend the Bill ? The Earl of ST. GERMANS replied that, as the clause then stool, it was for a period of five years, but he was quite willing that it should be further limited to thre,i. Lor'd STOURTON hoped thaz the G.tvernit ent would per severe in the limitation of the Act to five years. The i►lary-.ais of L A NSDOWNE intimated that, at a fu ture time, he would take the sense of the House on the pro priety of limiting it to three years. Their Lordships then divided, when there appeared— Content .. Not content Majority against the amendment ... Clauses 24, 25, 26, and 27 were then agreed to. On the last clause being proposed, limiting the duration of the 13i11 to five years, The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thought even three years too long. It was the most unconst:tutional Bill that could be enacted, and it should terminate, at the utmost, cn the Ist October, 1819. The Earl of WICKLOW thought five years short enough. The necessity for its existence would be as strong at the ex piration of three years as at present. The Marquis of L ANSDOWNE said, that if it was pro posed to continue it longer than the time mentioned by his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Clanricarde), he would take the sense of the House upon it. Lord CL A RE thought it wholly unimportant whether it con tinued three years or five years. The Earl of ST. GERMANS thought that it was of so much importance that their Lordships should be unanimous, or as nearly so as possible, that rather than run the risk of a second division on the point he would have no objection that the lesser period of three years should be substituted for that of five. It was then agreed, after some conversation, that the Bi should be limited in operation to three years. Their Lordship then adjourned. HOUSE OF 00.3.1310A5, Mareh 6. The SPEAKER took the Chair at a few minutes before Four o'clock. SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were severally Wad — a second time and ordered to be viz. Airdrie and Bathgate Junction Railway. Rye and Dement Drainage. Heywood Waterworks. Leicester and Tamworth Junction Railway. Enfield Chase Road. Wakefield, Pontefract, and Goole Railway, and Port, &e. of Goole. Welsh Charity School Incorporation. Creat Grimsby Gas Stafford New Gas Rugby, Leamington, and Warwick Railway South-Eastern Railway, No. 7 ( Ashford S tat i ons E nlargement) Monmouth and Hereford Railway London and Brighton and London and Croydon Railways Consolidation Monkland and Kirkintilloch Railway London and Oxford Railway Eastern Counties Railway (Epping Extension) Mr. NEWDEGATE moved the first reading of th e Man chester Direct Itailwq 13111,which was ordered to be read a second time. Mr. KENIBLE moved that the order for the second read ing of the Mitcham and South-Western Railway Bill, on Monday, March 2, be irtde an order of the day for Monday, March 9, and that the Bill may be read a second time accord ingly on that day.—Mo ion agreed to. Mr. WILSON PATTEN moved that the Scottish Grand Junction Railway Bill, now placed in G roup N o . 5 , b e re• ferrtd to the Chairman of Ways an,l "leans, and the Members ordered to prepare and bring in the Bill. The motion was agreed to. Air. GREENE also moved that the second readings of the fullowing Bills, notice for which has been given in the Private Bill-office for Friday the 6th of Alarch, be made orders of the day it Monday next, the 9h of M arc h. ChichrAer, Ports mouth, and Fareliarn Ruilway Bill ; London and Birmingham Railway nod Birmingham Canal Arraneern , nts Bill ; Eastern Union Railway (Ardleigh to Colchester) Bill. The motion was agreed to. Mr. BUSFEILI) presented petitions from places in York • shire, signed by upwards of 9,000 individuals, against the en rolment of the militia. A petition was presented from the Poor-law guardians cf the parish of Caistey, remonstrating against the interference of the Poor-law Commissioners in their parish. Culonel T. WOOL) presented a petition, very numerously signed by the inhabitants of Chelsea, expressing their satisfac tion at the proposed measure of the Government, and at the same time stating their belief that the measure would be materially improred if it included the total and immediate re peal of the corn-laws. Mr. WARD presented a petition, signed by the Lord Mayor and council of the city of York, and also by 15,000 of the principal inhabitants, tgainst the enrolment of the militia. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented several petitions against the enrolment of the militia. Mr. ESTCOUR'f brought up the report of the Standing Orders' Committee. Mr. BRIGHT presented several petitions from the county of Somerset praying for an immediate repeal of the corn-laws. Mr. HUDSON presented a petition from some place, the name of which did not reach us, in favour of protection. Mr. YOUNG moved that the Speaker do make out his warrant for the election of a burgess to serve in the present Parliament in the room of the Honourable Thomas Carnegie, who had accepted the office of one of the Lords of.the Treasury. PROTECTION TO LIFE AND PROPERTY. Mr. YOUNG presented a petition from Clare, in favour of the Government measure for affording better protection to life and property in Ireland. - THE LEICESTER AND TANIWORTH RAILWAY. petition f rom th e Sir ROBERT PEEL presented a msyor and inhabitants of Tamworth in favour of this railway. THE TIMBER DUTIES. Sir ROBERT PEEL presented a petition from the port of Sunderland, signed by one hundred and forty-four shipowners, in favour of the proposed reduction of the timber duties. The petitioners were not partners in any joint stock com pany, but individual shipowners, and stated that the proposed reduction of the duty on Baltic timber would be of the greatest importance, as it would enable them to compete with foreign shipowners in the building of vessels. They not only prayed the House to reduce the duty, but to abolish it altogether— (Hear, hear,)—as they considered that such a step would not injure the Canadian trade.—(Cheers. ) LONDON AND OXFORD RAILWAY. A petition was presented in favour of thii Bill. Mr NEW DEG ATE ( in the absence of Mr. Spooner) moved that the petition of Joshua Tournlin Smith, presented yester day, be printed with the votes.--:-Agreed to. AMALG ANIATION OF RAILWAYS. Mr. W. PATTEN said he had been directed to make an inquiry from the Vice-President of the Board of Trade with respect to the very important question of the amalgamation of existing railway companies. The railway Committee of which he was a Member experienced great difficulty in the eases of amalgamation which carne before them. He was in duced to ask the question which he was about to put to the Right Honourable Gentleman, not only for the purpose of enlightening the railway Committees, but also the public at large ; because it was one which involved circumstances of a very serious nature. He wished, then, to know whether the Government intended taking any measure this session with the view of settling the different amalgamation Bills now before Parliament. The Committee had directed him to put the question before they proceeded any further with the subject. One of two plans had been submitted for the settlement of the question; but he thought he might state that the opinion of the Committees was that a question of such vast importance to the country would be much more satisfactorily determined I upon by the Government, and if not by them at least by some Select Committee to be appointed by the House. He.theree fore wished to ask the Government whether they intended taking any step in the matter? Sir GEORGE CLERK said that the question of the amal gamation of existing railroads had been fully considered by the Railway Department of the Board of Trade last year ; and one of the reports which they presented to the House was devoted exclusively to this subject. In that report they laid down general rules under which such amalgamation should be permitted. In every instance the amalgamation of existing railroads was permitted, because where the railways proposed to be amalgamated lay in CAI same direct line, the public would be advantaged by the traffic being carried tliPhoughr,ut the whale length of those lines under the came manage ment. But, on the other hand, it would be depriving the public of the benefit of competition, if railroads that ran parallel to each other were permitted.—(Hear , hear.) He did nut knew whether, as a general principle, amalgamation should be permitted or not ; bat he was of opinion that it would be extremely ineonvel Tent that where amalgamations were proposed to take place, that they sh•.uld be referred to the same Committee as those which sat on separate Bills. In ge neral, those amalgamation Bids were not opposed ; they earn before the Committee as unopt ' iosed Bills, and the attention of the Commi,tee seas given to Wile that were opposed. He thought in consequence that all those Bills should be referred to the same Committee, who should take care that no amalgamation took place which would not be for the benefit of the public. Sir G. GREY wished to know whether the Government would prep se, as the Committees were now aeout to sit on railway Bills, any suggestions for their guidance (as we un derstood) re-pecting the broad and nee: ow gauge ? Sir GEORGE CLERK saiu that he had half an hour ago seen the parallel evidence, and that he hoped in a week or fortnight to lay it before the Mime. After a fen. words from Mr. BARING and Sir GEORGE CLERK, which we could not catch, Mr. E. MAULE said that many of the 13111 s would not at tract the attention of the Committee at all with respect to amalgamat tn. PENSIONS FOR G;VERNMENT SERVICE IN I N I) lA. Sir V. BLAKE begged to put a question to the Right Ilonourab;e Baronet at the head of her Aldjesty'. Government, the purport of which it was understood was to inquire whether the 2ilinistry were et all likely to bring in a Bill for providing pensions far those individuals who host their employment atter long service. If not, he should himself bring in a Bill for giving a pension of 75/. a year to all those who have filled prin cipal situations after twenty years' duty. Sir ROBERT PEEL avid really not aware the Hon. Baronet was going to ask such a question. He had not given any notice—at least it did aof sand for to-day—(Gies of " No, no")—er he would have taken care to have provided himself with the information on the subject. The Hon. Baronet was quite competent to bring in a Bill if he thought proper, or if he chose to put a notice on the paper, he would be prepared to give a reply on a future day. SCOTCH TURNPIKE ROADS. Sir JAMES GRAHAM moved the second reading of the Turnpike Roads (Scotla:lJ) Bill, in order to have it postponed for ten days, in consequence of the absence of the Lo►d Ad- vacate. FAMINE IN IRELAND. Mr. O'CONNELL rose to call the attention of the House to a letter which he hal received from a Catholic clergyman, de tailing the misery which existed in his parish. 'lhe reverend gentleman detailed that in his whole district there were 1,222 comprisir g 7,332 individuals ; of these, 72 fa milies had six months' provisions, 16 had four, 181 had three, 43 had two-and-a-half, 213 hod two, 87 had six, 2O) had four, '23 had three, 57 had ten, 32 had one, and 309 were without any proviLion at all. He was sorry the Hon. Member for Queen's County (Sir J. C. Cote), than whom a better landlord did not exist, was absent, because he %could he able to corrobate intelligence which ha (Mr. O'Connell) had received from that part of Ireland, that half of the pot atoe crop of his tenants had been utterly de stroyed, and that. they were compelled to subsist as they best could, on the indifferent portion left, and on the charity of their friends and neighbours. PROTECTION TO LIFE AND PROPERTY IN IRELAND. Mr. ROSS presented a petition from Antrim, in favour of the Government measure for affording better security to life and property in Ireland. SUPPLY. Lord INGESTRE asked when the Government proposed to move for a Committee of Supply ? Sir R PEEL said the Government would be entirely guided by the length to which the discussion on the Govern ment measures might extend this evening. THE GOVERNMENT MEASURES._ADJOURNED DEBATE. The House then went into Committee on the Customs and Corn Importation Acts. Mr. W. 0. STANLEY rose to propose the following amendment to the propositions of the Government :—" That in lieu of the duties now payable on the importation of corn, grain, meal, or flour, the product of foreign countries, there shall be paid a fixed duty of ss. per quaver upon wheat, 23. tad. on barley, and 24. on oats ; meal and flour in proportion." lie said, although he represented a purely agricultural county ( Anelesey) he Lad not yet tOought proper to t. t:-parr on the attention of the House ; and in now stating the grounds on which he had thought proper to propreie this amendment, he should not occupy much time. Before he did so he had paid the utmost attention to the observations which had fallen from Hon. Members on both sides of the Home, but their ob servations had not in the least shaken the opinicns which he had always maintained. In his estimation the propositions of the Government were just, and would con fer great benefit on the country. He would say, in the words with which the Noble Lord the Member for the city of Lon don concluded his last address to the House—" I think the interests of the country deeply involved in the immediate, com plete, and tranquil settlement of tnis questi n." He cordially agreed in these sentiments. It was most important to the best interests of the country, that the question of the corn laws should be set at rest, and that it should be effected immediately, completely, and in a tranquil manner. No person could say that the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet if passed into a law would be a tranquil settlement of the question ; and with reference to an immediate settlement of the question the recorded votes of that House had declared that it should not be immediate. Neither is it a complete set tlement, and as a proof that it is not a tranquil settlement be would refer the House to what had been stated by several lion. Members in the course of the debate. The Hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Bright) and the Hon. Member. for Wolverhampton (Mr. Villiers) said they would agitate the question, year after year, so long as the duty remained on foreign corn. He would recal to the recollection of the House the speeches of Hon. Members on the Opposition benches. The Noble Lord the Member for Lynn (Lord G. Bentinck) said that he would vote for the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet, because in the course of three years there must be a general election, and that period would give them an opportunity of re-organising their forces, and of raising such a cry in the country as would compel this Government to ieseind those measures if they should des passed. No one, then, could think the present a tranquil settlement; he therefore, proposed an alteration in the proposition of Government, which he thought would be a complete settlement of the question. He felt assured that the country would be satisfied with a moderate fixed duty ; a duty of that kind would improve the revenue and would not injure the interests of the consumer. He had the authority of the Noble Lord, the Member for the city of London, who had stated that a fixed duty of five shillings would not raise the price of foreign corn to the consumer more than one shilling. The Right Honourable Baronet at the head of -the Govern ment had stated in his first proposition to the House, that the principle which he recommended he was not about to confine to any particular class or interest. Now, upon many other important articles of manufacture, such as cotton, linen, leather, and cheese, the Right Honourable Gentleman de clared it was his intention to reduce the duty ten per cent. On that principle he (Mr. Stanley) proposed that a moderate duty of 53. on wheat, 2s. 6i. on barley, and is. on oats, per quarter, should be laid on these ar ticles. Another reason he had for proposing the duty was, that, while it would not hurt the consumer, it would be of great advantage to the agtieulturist. He appealed to the Right lion. Gentleman, and begged to as's him why, in the face of all lie had stated, and with the lower he possessed of ju iging of the state of the country, as First Miuister, he felt justified in pro posing in the present instance a es. duty to be levied on home consumption, while after the lapse of three years foreign corn would be admitted free. It would be but justice to the agri culturists that when the duty on manufactured articles should cease the duty on agriculture should cease also. That was the reason he felt it his duty, though he calculated on very little support, to introduce the present measure to the House, and call upon Hon. Members to deal with it as it might be deemed wcr• thv. The Hon. Members on the other side of the House deceived themselves, and they should pause before they ventured en such a step as to throw the country into a state of tumult and agitation by a general election. They would have to array their forces against the League, and such an operation would be attended with some difficulty, for if their proposition ;sere carried out it would disarm their friends. He had no wish to go into the comparative merits of a fixed duty on the sliding scale, it would be quite sufficient for him to submit his present proposition to the House. If he did so, he must ne cessarily go over ground that had often been traversed before, and he certainly did think that it was for the interest of the country that there should be a complete and final settlement of this question. The SPEAK ER having put the question, Colonel WOOD said that he, like the Hon. Gentleman op posite, had not as yet taken any part in this debate, and he would therefore now trespass on the attention of the House for a very short time.—(Hear, hear.) He would venture to say that the delay in the settlement of this question had caused most serious results to the poorer classes and the country at wholarge.eedrwitthhea delay y tain of e t ic h t e ent s i e v t e tle m m i e ll n e t r of the Right Honourable Baron, t's measure, did not purchase one farthing-worth corn more than what would just now, He in w a c s on a s c e q q u n a e i n n e keep his mill going. All parties connected with the agricul tural interest were also suffering most:seriously from this delay. The small tenant farmers, about whom lion. Membeis pro fessed to take so much interest, sutfered the most seriously ; and the large farmers next. Lady-clay was fast approaching, and the small tenant farmers must prepare for the payment of their rent on that day, by the disposal of the little wheat which yet remained to them ; and he had no hesitation in saying that they were now losing throe to four shillings upon every quarter of wheat, by reason of the present suspension of trade, and his firni belief was, that upon the s e ttl ement of this question the price of corn would either rise or fail to an awful ex tent. 'The present suspense in the corn trade was productive of the most serious results to the small tenant farmers. And now for the large tenant-farmers. He believed that in consequence of the present ministerial proposal the duty on the importation of foreign corn had risen, and was up to the present day 18s. per quarter. ship loads of corn were arriving at every sea-port, and their contents were immediately warehoused, and the consequence would be that after this measure was disposed of, there would be a larger accumulation of foreign corn in the warehouses. But there was another class of society, who did not seem to have been regarded in this debate by any lion. Member except the Hon. Member for Finsbury. The House would be aware that the measure had been brought forward lately twabolish the pre sent cruel law of removal to their natives parishes, and he hoped that whilst this House mani'ested its anxiety to pass the present measure, they would also have regard to the interest of the lower classes, by assisting to their utmost in carrying out the measure to which he had alluded. Let both measures go hand in hand together, and whilst they toook care of themselves, let the n take care of their poorer neighbours into the bargain, by relieving them from the operation of the cruel law under n. d soo t i ao o en: i heet thk:feaei oe:yd,:mrpn:reduction was :lnna l egi eetoetni present, every teo.friatsyrhfhhsni hesitation Aihvry e w ifyee r which they were now suffering. For his part he was totally d at ) t 5, eyei i cltei tovomtiwaht could ahr h apei tai a noi nt d srnBtent:t j hfflaaoosa u 6daetva sehdeyuet vote do. effect onfh s nist ointe a ai eogne.fsr t l ctftotirdooht causinga: lo p sranti ,ttoetooro e snhatnsotrel object oecif.ranfuAt t r o p:::Tes shai t t , 1,3e:1 1 eSi calamity, remembered ugi mnsgttriyenuoth:,:t, we(at ie i rii:ozrr: ncs o ecefn,w f :::ipabhuha t aa i nchddh\ e hri ves all telti l ,b(viaBh,t l t he Act e l. e most calamitous harvest which he bad ever remembered the people of England had to contend with—when a hide kiln dried corn would be most useful, but the then regulation of the averages prevented its introduction. The ports opened on the 16th of November, and they remained open until the 18th of I August, during which period the prices remained much the sante, in consequence of the averages preventing, the pnreltaqe of corn it a reduced price ; but after that, when t!' , harvest at home was made available, the averages feil, end foreign corn came in when it was not requited. He would bo glad to meet an lion. Gentleman who was ready to defend the corn-laws, and he would undertake to prove that every one of them, cc cording to the confessions of their supporters themselves, had been failures. He should vote for no amendment against the proposition of the measure of her Majesty's Government— & Ironical cheering)—because he was anxious that the measure should pass the Houses of Parliament. He was quite sure Coat a fixed duty would do more harm than good, and he voted for this meaaure be , — he the "hr h raid in Wiltshire, in reply to the st l iements of the m l 4 od Gentleman the t.ieeretary at War. tint he nact nester tier the most distant reference to Sussex.—( Hear.) He " a9 . o at much gratified indeed to hear from the /lon. G en opposite of the am oun t o f wages paid to agricultural labour!, in Sussex, and he had no doubt that the llouse w° ald is ‘e i e rt ° equally gratified.-..-(Hear, hear.) . Her Alajesty's M n er must also feel pleasure when they heard that labourers liberally treated in the county alluded to.—( Hear, hear•Lber Mr. CURTEIS b egge d t o apo l og i se to the nom 3 0 / 3 ,1 if he ha , l rnis - epreserved his staknat nts —( Hear, hesil ic ilei he was quite su r e—( L ou d cr i es o f , 4 0-d er , order. and roa ..ed ' eecause .sought the li;ght Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government best knew what v likely to pass. He thought the other branch of the Legislature cught to have a fair field upon which to do some good. Do not let the House of Commons take all the credit. What he would advise the Hi use of Lords to do would he, to amend tie Bill by proposing total repeal.—(Cheers.) He was satisfied that if they adopted that course they would consult their own inte rest, and the country would then say. thank God, we have a House of Lords. He, therefore, sincere!' hoped that the House of Lords would adopt that measure. Mr. S. O'BRIEN said, his Gallant Friend had commenced by deploring the delay which had taken place in passing' the measure; and yet, in the coarse of his s; each, he threw out s challenge to discuss, timing the progress of this measure, all the corn-laws which Earl been passed since the year 1915 Now, there was as great a discrepancy in that as in the two statements the Hun. Geteleman feel made respecting the price. In the first place, he seated that this measure svotee raise the price 3s. or 45., and in the late r tart of his speech he said it would mike no difference at all. The light lion Gentleman at the head of the Government had stated that th.: price would be raised I.s. or 25., but the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman had improved upon that. The lion Gentleman had referred to the law of settlement, hut that c-old have ne reference to the famine in Leland. It the present measure raised the price of corn, it was obvious that, as far es Ireland was concerned, it would he better to delay the passing of the measure, for that would be beneficial to the poor. Grasiting all th se provisions were correct, and that the great change that the Right Hon. Baronet hail thought it les duty to show was not to be looked upon merely as a change on the importation duty on tl iur, but rather as a great change in the commercial policy of the country ; it seems that ther ! was this great diversity of opinion both in this House and out of doors ; it seems still further that there vas this evieent deter mination to continue this discussion through alt the diff•rent stages of Parliamentary usage ; seeing, also, that it was as serted that the uncertainty occasioned by what may arise in this House, or elsewhere, he did think that the R. ght lion. Raronet could not do less than grant the means of indulgence to the Hon. and Gallant supporter behind him, and to allow the di- cussien on the law of settlement to precede the debate on the alteration of the corn-laws. Now he thought he was bound to remind the House that, seeing they were in a grew minority, and that it was impossible to prevent tham from protracting this debate to almost an interminable length, and occupying the time of that branch of the Legislature by a a cold discussion, he thought he was entitled to show the House and the country that he and his Noble Friends near were free from any blame on that point. They might have clogged the notice-book with intimations ef motions, which would have had that effect, but they hal not taken that course. When the other night the Right Hon. Baronet had expressed a wish that the debate should proceed, the Hon. Member for Athlone ( Mr. Collett) had refused to accede, and referred to several Members. Mr. COLLETT said his reference was made to the Peers. Mr. S. O'BRIEN—Yes, but he did not blame the Hon. Member, for he had not made his reference discourteously, but he Lad raised a discussion which he had even a right to do; the same circumstance had occurred with respect to the Hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Buller.) When the Honourable Baronet had moved for going into Committee, that Hon. Mem ber had moved an amendment which also brought on a die cussioni He did not blame those Honourable Members, but he wished to show that he and his friends were free frem all blame on this point. The only Member of those with whom he acted who had put a notice on the book, was the Hon. Member for Warwickshire, but it had immediately been set aside. He would repeat, he did not blame those Members, fee he thought that in such an entire breaking up of a party as this question had proved, and in the important change which was likely to take place, that the measure which introduced it ought to be closely and doggedly discussed, and that it. ought to have the most mature deliberation in all parts of the House; but he must at the same time remind the House that, however severe might be the famine suffered by the people, and how.. ever high the price of provisions, or however great the disease amongst the potatoes, that he and his friends near him were free from all culpability. They were not respnnsib'e for the non-opening of the ports, and the only reason he saw against such a measure was the fact that the Noble Lord had proposed it.—( Hear.) They were not responsible for the, non-introduction of a temporary Bill for Ireland.. They were net responsible for Parliament not having been summoned on the 22d of January; and if the Hon. Baronet chose to introduce measures of such vast importance, it was unfair to charge them with offering them a factious opposition, because they were anxieue they should lie fully discussed. Now he was determined, whenever that charge was repeated, to protract the discussion. He should not, however, interfere with the progress of the amendment. Strengers were then ordered to withdraw, but on our re turn to the gallery, we found that no division had taken place, and that Lord G. BEN TINCK was in possession of the House. The Hon. Gentleman stated that he considered that nothing could he more inconsistent than the speech of the Hon. and Gallant Member when compared with the course he pursued. On the division which took place on the motion of the Member for Wolverhampton; and his Hon, and Gallant Friend (Colonel Wood) who formerly supported the opinions entertained by the protectionist party, n ov turned his back upon them and sup pored the propositions of the Government, though he was elected to support the sentiments which he (Lord George Bentitck ) and those around him entertained. He was sur prised, entertaining the opinions which he did with respect to the poor laws, that he did not advise the Government to, defer the further consideration of the measures which they had proposed until the treatment of the poor (who were being carted about from place to place, and who were sub jected to the greatest hardships) had been amended and re. medial measures adopted. He (Lord G. Bentinek) had never refused his support to any measure which had for its object the admission of foreign corn to feed the pooi• of this country, daring years of scarcity and famine, and he had also supported the sliding-scale introduced by the Right Hon. Baronet, be. cause he believed that the corn-laws of 1815 required modifi cation, and that a graduated scale should be adopted. But even under the law of 1815, the price of corn in England in 1816 was cheaper than on the Continent, as he found that whilst corn in England was at 112 s. a quarter, it had reached 116 s. at Vienna; and that in 1817 whilst it was 112 s. in Eng land it was at 1275., at Vienna, 140 s. in France.—(Hear, hear.) He did not, however, v.ish to say anything in favour of the law of 1815, but whilst he approved of the sliding-scale ef 1842, which the Government seemed to think was a great failure, he could not forbear saying that the corn law of 1815 had prevented foreign corn from being introduced into this country at famine prices, and consequently from materially injuring the agricultural and commercial interests of the country. After a few words from Colonel Woon and Lord JOHN Runtim e (which were inaudible in the gallery,) ei Mr. COLLETT stated that he did not wish to embarrass the present question, or unnecessarily delay its progress, but fda must say, in answer to the charge of the Hon. Member for Northampton (Mr, S. O'Brien), that any word lie had said with reference to the four Noble Dukes in the other House he belived to be perfectly true, and would again repeat tare charges if necessary. Sir JOHN TYRRELL was surprised to hear the Hon. Member for Brecon (Colonel Wood) state that he would vote in favour of the Government measure. He ( Sir J. Tyrrell) had always looked upon the Hon. and Gallant Member as the Nestor of protection. He was surprised at the general state of ignorance, with reference to the feelings and opinions of the ceestirtiency of the Hon. Member. lie believed that there was a requisition in a considerable state of progress, by the members of the Gallant Colonel's constituency, wl o, knowing his great honour, and the great honour which had always distin guished his actione, had no doubt that he would meet the terms of that requisition in a perfectly manly and honourable manner.—(Laugnter.) The requisition was, he believed, signed by a considerable number of gentlemen, and those per sons to whom allusion had so of ten b een made in Ilte course of the late monster debate. He alluded to tenant-farmers, and he (Sir J. Tyrrell) was given to understand that in con sequence of the late mania for farming companies, this class had started " an Amalgamated Small Tenant-farmers' Assn ciation." What number of shares the Gallant Colonel thought it right to hold in that spe cu l at i on b e would not pretends to to say. —( Cheers and laughter.) While, however, he was on the subject of ignorance, he might be permitted to say that there was one measure which he would propose, and which, no doubt, would give satisfaction to the country—( Hear) — one which would not interrupt unnecessarily the progress of the business of the House. Hon. Members on his side of the House, who had accused the Government of treachery, in not taking the sense •of the country upon the subject of their treachery, they would be satisfied if the Members of the Go vernment would let them carry en unnecessary business of the country, namely railways; and when they came back to their places, after having an opportunity afforded them of appealing to their constituents, they would be satisfied with them, and in the interim would carry on all the necessary huariess of the ccuntry, railways, for they are the only matters of any im ,portance to the 'country. The Hon. Baronet concluded by saying, that they ought to rally round and supp or t t h e corn laws as much as they would the Crown. Lord WORSLEY, although he agreed in full with the Hon. Gentleman's proposition, yet he did not see what he could gain by pressing it on for division.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. CURTEIS wished to correct an observation made a few evenings since by the Hon. Member for Sunderland.—( Cries of " Order," and " Chair.") It had been stated in an agricul tural epceth.—( Renewed cries of " Order.") Well, then, I.e would not refer to what had been said, but st do' 11- divide," in the midst of which the Hon. Gentleman • his Lord DUNCAN having made a few observe:bee, wine!' pot reach us, Mr. W. 0. STANLEY then withdrew his ionen7.::fart Mr. M. MILNES then rose and said, that in britt l e; t ,os ward his present motior. he begged and imp:ored 1 o toge Hon. Baronet to take int a consideraion the great t raP br eseid compronasing the p-esent question, and thereby 0 01 he aghasion. wh:eh was at present so much felt itithe,,,,, t l fir a happe t erm i nat i ng . H e h a d come to that co form no telirie time spent in examining mould new shortly s' ate the masons why' he been, bel l the :notion, and he eitnaidered the present rate or ewer, elf') he proposed was far more ffectual in arranging l b ; a s A than the measure of the Right Hun. Baronet ; and ate , sou Nfilnes') scale of duty was simple and extremely wa r oo sbi ranged over a small amount of prices. In ItS42 he rho ore is duty to declare in that Howe that ths scale of ate ag, e , ip o complicated, and much too high, and nothing had occurreuc; o alter his opinion. No scale of protectien, ' tt , 0 0 the quesionLaari that the farmers had under the present le' r eig oo it all sufficient to enable them to compete with the s h e AO. He considered that the formidable combination of gon corn - law League would not be less zealous in prese e° ,4os,l, designs. They could not obtain immediate peace, % vs the, present measure, nor did he think they wad a e t s , e i r . g ur ij °posing a scheme of prospective legislation, dope ',. (1 ..,; 5 0 1 1 •ornething that must happen at the expiration 01 It was the boast of the Right Hon. 13aronet tha:otheeiit founded his mea sure , not upon sprier evidence, not hut ueon true inductive principles. Upon his Nod', he last three year s — w h a t exper i ence, hewever. ce t e t err, had of the thre e y ears to come ? 'Boppsse tha t is erser", 1849 corn should be th e same pr i ce as i t was in 1 833, 0 dor think that, with corn in England at 375. a quarter, se t ;i o , so; ance of corn ready to come in from foreign eon ps eie ..o 'Wog would be the consequence of the frightt e lie siP o the tenant-farmers and producers of the country ? o cslti r of think it wise to depart from those precaution s? 110. i which had regulated the trade of this country years. The Right Hon. Baronet possessed great P. v . o li - se oo the country , but let him use it rightly—let hits 7;gersti tt , anything so rash, or so hazardous as the prosPee tive w e o e in the corn-laws at the end of three years. It eita s - la o alinister of a country to give a great victori aa, pat' ; party over another, and if this measure by ho in its present state, it would be regard eu r stle t t 'el class as a most triumphant victory de epe r , se class—a victory which would not fail to leave a: - . 01 1)0°,, 0 malice in the heart of society, and which it vrould Ora' t° "ol to eradicate. If he might be allowed to say a few y P ir protectionist party, he would say that he thought t ,. 0 le acted so wisely or energ e tic a lly on th e p rese nt occa -t e e iboaß b , fusing' all compromise nn the present question. I her they should not refuse to vote with the Hon. 3f e ins re' 4 moved the last amendment. Whatever might he t . u ret e „ . o t of the population of this country, he considered ? e , o sid tb , them to resist any alteration of the law of 1842. I re oeof os t conceive how any person, regarding the enormous ine, hing be y population, could regard the corn-law of 1842 as anYL op ing than a temporary measure, for the purpose of tier, d acee,be industrial resources of the country. When he looked of', map of the world, and saw the small amount of aerr il e'be e e yo country compared w i th th e re s t o f t h e wor ld, and sc , o 'con' tf berr sitter d also tha t E ng l an d was th e on l y w h eat -ostler" y i v the world, he really could Pot conceive how 11° ' 1 1 ; ge o es ceuld wish to pr eserve t h e l aw of 1842 intact. n e .:thnis Right lion. Baronet to ac t w ith hi s usua l pru ience t w os o e ter, and he would not fail to reap an abundant re 13 3 f e 0 knew the difficult position in which the Right ife n ' o reo' s or was placed, in endeavouring t o susta i n i n h a risionie A ue i d the institutions of an ancie n t monarc h y , a dignifieu„ - e - r able aristocracy, and a free people. He hoped be ° , e h i s tse li tbe Right Hon. Baronet would not, by persisting iti :betw ee. , held up to the world the spectacle of a conflicto o , to' , oo middle classes and the aristocracy. He begged b i r o t b to the expression . of public opinion. He we'd" thi s e i L od doing compromise his character, but would show l e e c ow that he is the Minister not of one class but of ole o to energies of the people. - b tr r C 4 jl 7 Mr. A G LION BY did not wish to place any_ the progress of the p resen t Bill. H e would, he'er-etifit'bt? attention of the Right Hon. Baronet to the s ituat' e t p i, ebic h et nninber of persons resident in the North of Ent"l a le no t t o re' considered connected with the corn-laws. Be ... e . o tre es lol'l any person cou'd predicate the results of the P re ' i debt,bP He found from the speeches which h .d been le; fe es, Members on both sides of the House that differew.e of been.predicted. His conviction was that the 14 1 1 1 eft ° L A 'could be reduced by it. It had been said that e c 3 ,bir,S 4 c loy' farmer would be able to compete with this state '''' s - ousi e 'i;of increase of capital ant skill, hot in some parte ut, e 0 0 ' 0 01 there are very titi large ,:tares and they are in t ta t •0° class of persona called statesm e n, a t erm analsg - o w „ " i bse yeoman. Tony have no capital, their farms er e te n ( IA; cultivated for the most pa r t b y mem b ers o f thete" ;rooerice They may no doubt apply th emse l ves to cheinice,tir' e t er this House could not giv e th em cap i ta l, b ut it cou'u Die ' I V from the difficulties under which they laboured . u se a les present under the rem nan t o f a sys t em of feudal te ; " et to t he fermis were all held by copyb o ld. Th e y are su b J e sjeoe s ub' years' fine on change of proprietorshiP als o eirit death of the L o rd o f t h e M anor t h e y Int of si te ject to a tw o y ears ' fi ne upon eve ry ac — S sc h ase He did not wish to b e u n d ers t ood b y this staiensl thead was opposing the pre sen t Bill. H e was in fieuur )dar ter'; sure, but he wanted to do th a t w hi c h w as fair lie c o ld!' which might result to the benefit of the c ountry', cel'i es t dered that the House had p ower to en f ranc hise li'V er erOote . and thus render the farmers and their families in s o ole f 03 10 the results a hich mu s t foliow the passing the pre'; it tee The Hon. Member refer re d t o a repoit of a Cor e bo ld;`,,oic" House, appointed to inquire into the law of ceasiv 0 ) , presented to that Ho us e on th e 13 t h o f Atigest,,., 4 b d t• to ur' the Right Hon. Baron e t (Si r R. P ee l) was a tof,' of 6 CIP the opinion of that Co mm it tee , t h at t h e a b o lition lie . i t' d; of this nature would b e p ro fi ta bl e ' to t h e c ountrP se ot Aglionby) would not pres s jth e ques ti on a t the r b e e n jo t° but at some future stage o f th e proceeding', ler have a full discussion, a n d wou ld b e a bl e to ante tirsct t the details, he would b r i n g it un d er t he notice pot,t, Sir R. PEEL hoped that the Hon. Membee,l7oll, (Mr. M. Milnes) would not think him guilty 0 , his re pet he disclaimed entering into the consideration of que'Vl: He could not do so without dividing the wit 6 ,: i ost„,elc' When he proposed his measoure, he stated the 1, 3 11 r i se r , had induced him to believe that it was desirable fo f tbi! b that a time had arrived f or th e fi na l se ttlemen t ,°, oo o lt P e e tion. He could not he f e lt en t er i n t o the qu es sp ie : t ioo` ; Hon. Member, without opening the whole questie ll o pc& 0 0 .3 must therefore, state that he di ssen t e d f r om the f oe the Hon. Member, and he could not thereof Ab I ~ il ion to the re-opening of the question, the princiP le been decided by a large majority of that House, great measure of Hun. M em b ers w h o co nsidec e " t bst e v , v etee;, immediate repeal preferable, bat who had °I I e , 11 1 3 voted in favour of the meas u r es o f her .111elee t i e set'",e The Hon. Gentleman says it w ou ld b e a groat g schicb4os.o he seemed to forget that there was another da/; it iet, ; p ris e object to it. The present law gave the same W i t ; tle e 0 0 0 ,0 it would be very desirable, he admitted, to o°l 01 1 0,0 of transferring property, and the inconvenien ces f e lt „l i tll ot times occurred. The greatest disadvantage si'a' f e lt 'mg 'e who had to purchase small properties— it 'ce.e„olarg, per more than by those who had the power of bui t fLsie'eattsie the expense was not so much a matter of ee;•the,booro inconvenience felt by delay. Th e impediment. t oll h t. of property were, b e ad m itt e d, very grea t, hut isere* stleY it would be very uu'ai cto discuss that quettion °e l all same time he had no objection that the 14° . 1 :,,,i14' should reserve to himself the . full power of h t. ' foie ° ,.ors) the consideration of the House on some future n et ' r.e d Mr. MILES said that the question Was to hit t th e ' a great question of principle. He understood tPat,bleblziereeit:fir fia have full and rim* debates and he could as'-n tr itoiV he , that the feelings of the Members who were miser principles which would be known throughnti e tt t h ' e ttP cs t When they arrived at that election, w '''obe fr bel e bot lieved was not far off. then it would be konw n sc ere t at 1 opinions or those of the Right Hon. Barone t par e rs '' ' 'S agreeable ; and he would assure the Right 11°Il : tb ss e"d s untii then, it was not his wish to say one ?NT t oy e' e ss'iol impediment in his way, more than was abal o ts r o ot i f All he would say was, that with all the am ts t o resotOpla ho entirely disagreed, and he would endeavour 9 a r ' ' 0 3 '0 law which the Right Hon. Baronet seeme d 0 0 1) : 0 abolish. All he wished was a full, delibera t ; io ril j oit discussion of the question, in order that fee o n , for oiol i : or country may be arrive at. It was n ecesio e -, jar joi know 1;y our statements that there would be a ve t ' o r t it agricuiturul produce. He considered that it se u e eta ° lo o Ao s ble for the present holders of farms t d L od , d iSt: i j or to maintain their position, if the conte i lf we' m , - ! I e were carried into effect.—( Hear, hear.) ieb to say a few words on the change w the '-rs.'jjri to have taken place in his opinion reepecting :0 co, i (•, 40 'of t •iou repeal in preference to the 'distant repea l seas be The Right Hon. Baronet conceived that it rt , of t „si Miles's) opinion that he should prefer the Iner'suej:•jltoe ba Lord the member for London to that of 1 1.' r i !o) vernment. Now, what he stated was, that b e b , J r Slisdo decided opposition to the propositions of ,Abef (3 1 „ of o 1 time, as tar as the farmers were coneernenr me are' vo n ' stated that he believed they would prefer th e ot e t th e w to Noble Lord to that of the Right Hon. 1 30 " o ber 0 1000 her Msjesty's Gvernment. The Hon. 3 ,5 0 v ole do rs ,bat chester bears me our in the statement that 0;,,0ca- hic e,rbe he similar to that whim he made on f' e f oi ken P„ tile; le - -- - wages -ate plainly that he "' - . a take. ea fiti; was prepared to show that the wages paid the agricultural hoped and !rusted, a great discussion havinfe hos srea ar ste:,l, labourers in Sussex were not Ss Kr week, but 125., and in arm. her o oiald not then be in: reduced ; a t t ti blic ',jers t e te some instances 13s. per week —(Hear.) He (Mr. Curteis) was was ready to go on with it if it were for the P e i)! e n i . e i '' ie a considerable farmer, and he could state that. every man in do so.—( No, no.) He wished it to be dittin na ,e, t i .'00: 0 1 his employment was paid at the rate of 121. per week, that though they allowed those resolutions W a rloWe . „ e u otil l ba i He (Mr. Curties) was i n favour of a 6s. or 4s duty, or no opposed to every one of them, and that theY I , the '''- to s th r corn- law at all ; and he thought the Hon. Gentleman would proceed pro _Aetna ,in order to oppose then' o rde r bt r get credit for much more discretion by not pushing his pro o- third reading, and finally come to a division, 0n ... 9 bro ug _di sition to a division. The farmers complained that they had to the country that they opposed the resolutroo Or t t n tic ° not been treated fairly by the Right Hon. Baronet et the bead ward by the Right Hon. Hamner. , iv ies ..0 10 0 1 of the Government ; and many of them were ready to give . uo Sir ROBERT PEEL said it would be in t ' the " 1 ,1 0 0 , the corn-laws, provided the duty on hops and other import's that, because the Hon. Gentleman acceded e t ram itteei be ri c o/ were abolished, so that they could then do as they liked with lie was not to oppose the measure in C ~ that mtle t o their own.—( Hear, hear.) For himself, he could say that he never further from his intention than to suPP h he a robe was perfectly ready to give up the corn-laws, and that the Gentleman would not oppose the Bill, altkl u ci f i of t h he at i b o a agricultural portion of his constituents were ready to do the declared that he would prefer the prePaV eat , slto i e Poe same. But he did think that whilst they were about to give Lord the Member for London to deferred r ef lear. ) Lo rd 0 , cheap food to the people, they should accede to the wishes of preferred the existing law to either--( Hent N o ble r estg,g, the hop-growers, by repealing the malt-duty. He should con- Gentleman (Mr. Miles) stated, that if hew oo ld b e i m „ed time to agitate upon that question until it was settled—( Hear, Member for London stood to his guns, : him ill be V e) , hear.) With regard to the question now before the House, he support him.—(A laugh.) It appeared! 2b, 510 0 0- 0 ill° would express his belief that the attempt to impede the progress Gentleman was somewhat inconsistent ne'' ,a, ~, a "' when see the , ~,, _ of Free-trade, was labour in vain, and he therefore hoped that there was no difference between them. " ue gion, o p la -,,,,/ ,q,,„ th ere !tat o o a the amendment would not be persisted in —( Hear, hear.) But he would - never restsatisfied until the duty on malt was repealed tleman states he would not enter into the same time it was hardly fair of hina . t e e_:4 t ime, „roe t he (Hear hear, and laughter)—and this brought him to the great downfall of prices, without at tll . ,i,' . 1 1. peey .. .` 0, 0 0 point of the hop-duties.--( Cries of "Ohloh I" and laughter.) arguments to support him. When he 1 ''-'" former Gees,T4fieo ttor, He begged to state to the Right Hon. Baronet, that he a removal of prohibitory duties on a . in _ ... ( f ir. , 7 1 t he f el e should feel it his duty to press upon the House that introduction of cattle, the Hon. Gentle n 1 7 1.. u ni t eys for o t ' vi ol begged for a reduction of the duty upon an d sa id .„ e st n ar an amount, equal in proportion to half the excise duties pose of feeding the cattle in this co un t! e t_ rice of 1"'",,,, a d should be taken off the protective duties. The Right Hon. Baronet was going to take o '. ss. of protection would be an enormous depression in_ h,. ,P not yet su off, and half the excise duty would therefore be about 10s. He such were done; but he (Sir R. l'ae_l really thought that if the Right Hon. Baronet would wily con- rificat ion of that propliecy.—(Hear, Mr. rvaLEs said, that when he. made ~a, e e•relYZ aot 0 0 eider this question, he would see that it was only fair towards the hop-growers, that an equal proportion should be taken off not his own indiei.lull opinien. ( t . 7,,.....` r.n d he ' at fset,,, 1 0 excise duties as was taken off protection. And now that be door Gili"i°tl—(Cries of ‘‘ 0h.., ._ ' an d give t t i ? v , 1 01 2 1: 1 0 0 was on his legs—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and " Divide ")—he that foreign Battle would Reeemu , ate would like to mention that, as a farmer, he believed that a very reasone for the increase of prie l ess te'hich ev id : en ,,,eif s n 0 / .roved I''" - ee bil l ' o w 14 hae)caterel.tui, at ostetv_iltv,git:too:tt: take 07m He hoped he ha notl ...odid r oe to als 1 4 considerab'e change was coming over the hop-aro aers of Ate as the Right Hen. Baronet . Sussex, whatever might be the fate of those in Kent. His Pl." td of the ques ti . p oi/ elo bl would be ready at a future perm _, c „.„, in _ ..up tri constituents had desired him to say that rather than have their present questionable protection they would be without any at convincing arguments that the price 0. Cop e all.—( Hear, hear.) It was only fair therefore that the present „, a tbs a free-trade measure. duties on malt should be repealed by way of compensation. inform the Hoe- tR geS. o bje , ' must fall by the introduction of grain from foreig a t cy the rthek, Mr. BURROWS could In conclusion he entirely agreed with the Noble Lord ( Wors- man disativan , to o r , hold farmers were suffering under m c 7,,,er f t he m ley ) that this amendment should be withdrawn. Mr. HUDSON begged to state, in reply to what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman opposite, that he had never, were invariably complainin h g of the u ni ro s ri n) inqus cry er : go orfr. they were subjected, and to fel lf) ; 1 : either in that House or in any other place, made any state subjected to many charges. her Majesty's -J r ite 344° moots at all hearing upon the question of agricultural I vevors of the districts, found that the farin it ee r s .iters .._v report .._ Mr, HUME would advise labourers' w a ges in Sussex. He had certainly, (luring the dis cussion on the aorta-laws, spyken of the agricultural wago 1 the advice of the Committee which had Wil'e th," th ey Att i 'ea,{ It w. IrtlQ a. re TUE SUN, LONDON, SATURDA Y EVENING, IVIWRCII 7, 184& I C.. [9