The Sun. — London, England, 1837-05-06 00:00:00

That resulted from it.l----I—.---'.---- i qualificati on , therefore, r stead of inducing c onstitut e d him to ha s t en t h e progress of this measure, one of the very reasons why he wished first to have the Poor -law before them, in order that it might be seen whether a different and better qualification could not be adopted. The evidence taken before the Longford Elec '!erytion Committee showed that perjury had been carried to a great extent as regarded the qualification. He should ITbe anxious to guard against this in the introduction of the i atiple of popular election into the corporations of Ireland. itwithstanding what had fallen from th e N o bl e Vi scount this ((Melbourne), he was not a f ra id to go before the country upon question.( H ear House prcposed to delay hear.) They on that side of the the further progress of the Bill of until ll they saw a bett er or fi nal settlement could not be made a the questions at present at issue between that House and 't.hee. House of Commons. They asked no compromise—they vt sired no compromise.—( Hear, hear.) Let the other mea aM'es he brought before them, and they would deal with them ; 4 " if those other measures appeared calculated to lead to a :settlment 'ente r i n of the ti t h e question in Ireland, they would then the to the consideration of this Bill, and di scuss it u p on lar principle for upon which it proceeded—the principle of popu election T he Duke of W municipal o ffi ces. 0 E LLIN G T 0 N rose to rep l y, b ut was r some time totally inaudible in the Gallery. The Noble Mar quis (the Lord President of the Council) and the ,Nobl e and Learned Lord (Lord Brougham) had laboured Bird A toa show th at there was no connection between this -s' d ifficulty ti un le questio n o f t h e I r i sh Church. The great l abour e d we der which th e Ch urc h i n I re l and at present 's the state of the tithe question—a state entirely tie ing tone measures of Parliament. It was the tithe ques n tlyat had brought the Irish Clergy to a state border 'bug cra starvation; and that question was constantly kept alive RV 'a system of agitation extending over the whole country. ~e was anxious to avoid additional agitation—the authorita je agitation that would ensue through the medium of these - th " . Coun cils —Councils acting under the influence and au of of those very persons who were now the chief agitators 0 the country--Councils elected to their situations by the ,er.)' lowest class of the people, who, in their turn, were un :uer the protection and direction of the great opponents, he `ant c lutql not call them enemies—he should be sorry to speak qant Es bIY of any b o d y but the great opponents o f the Protes tablished Church in Ireland. It was, besides, to be re i me lobered t h at these Town Councils so elected by the lower -heta.ass ors, w cif the peopl e , and so directed and governed by the agi .. wild exercise an influence and power not only within 3 .he lt lim its and p rec i ncts of the town to which they belonged, 1.1111, o rer all t h e adjoining district within a circle of seven , c ,". So th at i n several instances the jurisdiction of these ... es. Councils perhaps of very small towns—would `exten t = i nto three or four counties. Was that desirable whilst 41,0 agitation of the tithe nue?—( H ear.) He Imat that question to the Noble s Viscount conti (Me d lbourne) and de sired him to answer, was it not reasonable that those who had s re gard for Ireland, should desire to pause—to wait until ~,o 3' consented t h e y knew w h at the Irish tithe measur e was t o b e , b e f ore to t he C '' to adopt this measu re , w ith respect se orporations ?—(Hear, hear.) Hi s o bj ec t was to pre "urve the Protestant Church of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) That s the true policy of this country—a policy which the sove reigni and every Member of that House, as well as of the If°llsthaetof Phe olle Commons, h a d sworn to ma i ntain.—( Hear, hear.) conti nu y were t o b e c h anged—if it were no longer to e tof establish policy this country to ma i n t a i n i ts P rotestant ITght ments and in s ti tut i ons, they on that side of the House at least to be informed of the fact before they were "'issued f or taking a course which they deemed necessary for itl it an cof o re Pres ervation of the Irish Church—( Hear, hear)—and Cheers.) e specially oug h t they to be informed of any such change Principle and policy b e f ore t h ey were threatened with cer (lain proceedings O n th e part of the House of Commons.— , The H ouse then divided, when the numbers were for the " J uke of Wellington's amendment - Contents present 132 Proxies 60 Non -contents present Proxies ---- 192 81 34 - 115 Mejority in f avour of the Duke of Wellington's amen d ent, and aga i nst Vi scount M e lb ourne ' s „ n olotio n i 4.heir Lordships then adjourned. Z IOUSIII OF COMMONS, MAT 5. The SPIAKER took the Chair at the usual hour. LONGFORD ELECTION. ge ared T h . Clerk of the Crown for the County of Longford ap i;, at th e bar, and amended the return by inserting the ‘i,-Zie,°f Mr. Fox instead of that of Mr. White. Mr. Fok f t utu introduced by Lord Cole and Mr. Sergeant Le r-i-,_and he took the oaths and his seat. fo r d the motion of Mr. K. TYNTE, a new writ was moved L. "2 . e I.orough of Bridgewater, in the room of John Temple 1; 4 "S Esq., who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. C. BURRELL p ostpone d t h e motion of which he had ' 44l ts notice, relative to the Brighton Railway Committee Atkin g a special report to the Hou se o f t h e engineering diffi tillties of the various lines submitted to them. His reason for p ° stponin g th e mot i on was , t h at h e b elieved an amicable ar "getnent was about to take place betwe en olera in t parties. On the motion of Mr. KIRK the C he Road Bill was ''. l 4 a third time, and passed. 11ir. ESTCOURT presented a petition from Mr. Cot t'iagham, one of the architects who had made a design for the ew Houses of Parliament, complaining of injustice having uren done him in the adoption of his plan by Mr. Barry. The SPEAKER intimated that the petition was of a public glit urei and could not be received. o T he Host, MEMB ER s t ate d that he would p resen t i t if an PPortunior offered in the course of the evening. Mr. B ROTHERTON presented a petition against the 49,e.imeeheater an d Ch eshire Railway Bill. '" thir4,4 Leicester arid Seranington R a ilway Bill was rea d a t and passed. BRIGHTON RAILWAY. Lord G. LENNOX presented a petition from the Direc ars of Stephenson's Brighton Railway Company, which .tt..ated that they had inspected the subscription of the South 4i?stern Line of Railway to Brighton, and found that it con ned only 7 They also' founds aboe the um the na required f bGeor y the orders of o me oge Hinde P .r u i t l (I°l'm House. for 30,0001., an d g i v i ng the address, Islington. p a e Y had mad e str i ct i nquiries, and could not find that any f r ; rB nn of that name lived in Islington. They had, however, fo r d that a person of that name was clerk to the solicitors I; the Bill, an d that he was a subscriber to the Deptford and 42yer Railway to t h e amount of 10,000/. He had been ex th":lloed b e f ore that Committee, and it was found very clear 14 b0 could not a ff ord to pay that sum.—(Laughter.) fay, r • C. BRUCE presented a petition from Linlithgow in ti.. e ur 9f th e Edi n b urgh and Glasgow Railway, and one from xtqlPaisley, Glasgow, and Ardrossan Canal Company against asgow,. Paisley, and Greenok Raily. cc7r* W ILKS presented a petiti on c from the wa London Cemetery pany hgainst the Portland or Northern Cemetery Bill. Vt'r• PEASE was sorry that lie had not been in his place lerday when the question was asked with respect to the ,4t°nal Endowment Insurance Company. He was then un -I.ttre of the provisions of the 4 William IV. cap. 94, which y,!redered the Bill unnecessary. It had then been made an der of the t if he were in order he woul t sar the Bill be read a second time th a t d a y s i x months. moves. AgThreen SPEAKER sa id t h e motion was perfectly in order.— d to. 11 , I r. WASON moved that the Committee on the Ipswich provement Bill have power to send for persons, papers, and t eCord s. v.. Lord G. SOMERSET complained that it would be giving Luo great a power to a private Committee. After a few words from Mr. WAiON, the motion was agreed to. On the motion of Sir G. STRICKLAND, the Ilolmc sieservoir Bill was read a third time and passed. Sir J. WROTTESLEY presented a petition front an indi uUali a landowner, on the line of the Birmingha m and Derby Railway Company, complaining that the Standin g Orders had net been complied with. Sir J. GRAHAM suggested that the petit ion should be present e d an d ta k en i nto consideration on Monday. Sir E. WILMOT denied the truth of the statements con tained in the petition. After a few words from Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE and Sir JAMES GRAHAM, the Motion was agreed t o . CLUNE FOREST (SALOP) INCLOSURE BILL. On the motion of Mr. R. CLIVE, the Chine Forest (Salop) Inclosure Bill was read a third time and passed. Mr. H. lIUGIIES presented a petition from the inhabi tants of Oxford, in favour of the Manchester, Cheshire, and Staffordshire Railway Bill. Sir G. C LERK presented a petition against the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway Bill. Sir R. FERGUSON presented two petitions from Pas testant Dissenters in Nottingham in favour of the Ministerial Church -rate abolition plan. Mr. GASKELL presented a petition against the abolition Of Church rates. lIMr. RA MSBOTTOM presented petitions from Hereford T NI Buc D kin . gham, in fa vour o f t h e b etter observance of the ...or c h, ay Mr. HALFORD presented a petition from the Guardians ',4lre the Poor o f a U n i on in Leicestershire, complaining of cer gulati "e qual modeons of the Poor-law Commissioners, and of th e of parochi a l assess ment. _ommste, is e,Ca lltai n WINNINGTON p resente d a pet i t i on f rom Wor u against s the sy s t em o f U n i ons a d opte d b y t h e P oor-law sioner. Sir i JO HN BECKETT pr esen t e d a p e titi on f rom a p l ace bi ll re rk bire, complai n i n g of the present system of regist er i ng marriage s and deaths. 017 1a r • PIEL-Dn presented petitions from the township o f v at ! r n , and various other places in Lancashire, praying for Sui ed f L'ballet, and the abolition of the property qualification or Membets of Parliament. Mr ctri Paw,: -EEN presented a petition, praying for the speedy r'`g of the Imprisonment for Debt Abolition Bill. of `e i l y enel the parish THOMPSON presented a petition from of th ersedge in the county of York, praying for the repeal M. Mr. Poor L ' atv Bill. Shire WILES presented petitions from parishes in Oxford- Mr. "d Essex, in favour of the Church-rates Abolition Bill. frato Essex, in presented petitions with a similar prayer L parishes in the county of Dublin. re,..ord EASTNOR presented a petition from Reigate, Sur- Jmagainst the measure for abolishing Church -rates. a petition from Ros rne°Etrontnru.on?'beut°NNOß rose to present was interrupted by the entrance of the Gentle the liosher of the Black Rod, who summoned the House to House of w-hieh see Lo ords, to hear the Royal Assent given to various Lo s Report. The O'CONNOR DON presented a petition from Ros common in favour of the present government of Ireland. Lord J. RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day for the House going into a Committee of Supply. Mr. S. CRAWFORD wished to know from the Noble Lord at the head of the Home Department, when it was the intention of his Majesty's Government to proceed with the ad journed debate on the Irish Tithe question? Lord J. RUSSELL'S answer was inaudible in the gallery. Mr. SMITH O'BRIE N wished to know whether it was the intention of his Majesty's Government, to bring in a Bill for the Registration of Births and Marriages in Ireland ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Though he thought the mea sure good, it was not fit to be carried into effect yet. Mr. ROBINSON gave notice that on Monday he should put a question to the Government--whether the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs was in his place or not— relative to the relations of this country with Portugal. ENDOWMENTS IN THE CHURCH OF SCOTLAND. Sir W. RAE then rose, for the purpose of calling the at tention of the H ouse t o th e re p or t o f th e Ch urc h o f Scotland Endowment Bill. In 1835 he submitted to the considera tion of the House a motion respecting the grant of an endow ment to the Church of Scotland, with the view to having a Committee appointed to inquire into the question.—( Hear. ) The Noble Lord opposite proposed a Commission having the same object, and he had yielded to the appointment of that Commission, upon the distinct understanding that reports should be made from time to time, so as to enable the Government to apply suitable remedies to the cases that would be brought before them. Two years elapsed before that report was laid on the table, and he did expect that, considering the nature of that report, Government would have thought it their duty to .have brought the subject under the consideration of the House, as it was manifest there was a great destitution of religious instruction in Scotland. Early in the Session the Noble Lord, in answer to a question of his, informed him the report was under the consideration of Government, but that he could not pledge himself to any proceeding on the subject. That answer of the Noble Lord had been neither satisfactory to him nor to the country ; he had thought it to be his duty to bring the question before the House. If the Noble Lord lied stated Government were prepared to come forward with a grant in favour of those institutions, the present discussion would have been saved. The people from one end of Scot land to the other were excited on this subject.—( Hear, hear.) It was no party question, because numerous gentlemen professing Whig principles had attended meetings which had been held on this subject.—( Hear,- hear.) Those meetings had been held for the purpose of imploring the Government to provide for the religious instruction of the poor, upon the ground that it was the duty of the State to provide for the established religion of the country.--( Hear, hear.) When he last had the honour to bring that subject before the House, in the year 1815, he had stated that a sub scription of 60,0001. had been entered into for the religious instruction of the poor of Scotland. The people of Scotland were now willing to lay a sum of 150,0001. on the altar of Christian charity, for the highest good of the family of man kind; and they now turned to their rulers, in the fond hope that their contribution would be met with one of equal amount, to enable them to carry the plan into effect. The Right Hon. Baronet then adverted to the Report and the resolutions upon which the Commission was founded, stat ing that he thought it necessary for the purpose of ascertain ing whether the Church of Scotland was in want of aid from the Government. The Government, in his opinion, by appointing that Commission, had pledged themselves, if it was found that the Church of Scotland required aid, they would give it. fled they done so? He would leave the House to answer that. There were at this moment wanting in Edinburgh 25,000 sit tings for individuals not belonging to any dissenting congre gation. It was a melancholy and dismal fact that out of a po pulation of 162,000 persons, which was the population of Edinburgh, no less than 40,000 or 50,000 persons habitually absented themselves from places of worship.—( Hear, hear.) The people of Scotland had too independent a spirit to accept Church sittings for nothing. They were not able to pay, and therefore it was they kept away from Church.—( Cheers. ) The large body of Scotch Dissenters, he would assert, without fear of contradiction, were not: opposed to the grant : 11,000 sittings in the Dissenting Chapels of Edinburgh alone were unoccupied, and it was utterly impossible, therefore, they could lower their seat rents in order to admit the poor. Edinburgh would require 60,000 sittings, and 25,000 at the'very least were required at the present moment to afford anything like a decent accommodation. .The next point to be considered was the means of affording religious instruction- It was admitted by all persons who had turned their attention to the subject, that one Clergyman could trot provide in a satisfactory way for the spiritual instruction of more than 2,000 persons. Now the number to each of the Clergy in Edinburgh (as we under stood), was 2,717, that was somewhere about 800 more than it ought to be ; the Clergy, therefore, could not sufficiently attend to the spiritual instruction of the people as matters now stood. Was it not a most melancholy thing that out of a po pulation of 162,000 there were not less than from 40,000 to 50,000 in the habit of absenting themselves altogether from any place of public worship. Did not that single fact suffi ciently prove the justice and propriety of the conclusion to which the Commissioners came, that the present opportunities of attending public worship and receiving spiritual instruction were not adequate to the wants and the amount of the popu lation? One of the causes assigned by the Commissioners for the habitual absence of so large a number from any place of worship was a want of decent clothing (as we heard) ; but might not this be fairly traced to habits of dis sipation arising from inattention to Christian duties, and could there be a doubt that this inattention was caused mainly if not entirely by the want of a sufficient number of places of worship in which the humbler classes might be accommodated? Let this accommodation be provided, and they who were now dissipated would return to industrious habits and attend to their duties as Christians. This was abundantly proved in the case of some churches recently built. They were soon fired by people who had never before gone to any place of worship. Another cause assigned was, that they who did not go to a place of worship absented themselves for the purpose of taking relaxation after the labour of the week. Now this was not the case. The character of the people of Scotland contradicted this view of the case. All the relaxation the people of Scot land desired on the Sabbath Day was to go to their church. As matters now stood it was vain to hope that the high price of seats in the churches of Edinburgh, whether those of the Church of Scotland, or of Dissenters could be reduced - . They were in debt, and for the payment of the interest, as well as for the adequate remuneration of the clergyman, the price of the scats must be kept up.—( Hear, hear.) The humbler classes of Scotland did not seek to have their scats for no thing. They were ready to pay a moderate sum for their accommodation, but the seat rents were now so high that the poor were necessarily excluded. He was quite ready to acknowledge the obligations which the people of Scotland owed to the Dissenters. Without such accommodation there must have been a still greater deficiency of the means of reli gious instruction. At the time of the Reformation these means were accommodated to the amount of the population. That population having greatly increased, without a propor tional increase of churches, it followed that were it not for the Dissenters, the consequences would have been far more deplo rable even than they were. ' He contended that the Dissenters themselves—at least a very considerable portion of them—were not opposed to increased accommodation for those of the Na tional Church at the expense of the public. They had been asked whether it was not by voluntary contribution that the Dissenters provided for the building of their churches and the maintenance of their Clergy ? But had they the means of knowing how far this principle had been successful? The Dissenters refused to make any returns, showing what the amount of their debts were. Now it was of the last importance that this should be known, and yet the Commissioners gave no information upon so important a point. They should have in quired, also, how many of these Dissenting houses of worship had been built merely on speculation, and with a view to the profit that might arise from the seats. In Edinburgh alone there were not less than eleven thousand sittings unoccupied in Dissenting places of worship, and in the other churches the case was similar, because the rents of the scats could not be reduced. He would now come to the consideration of pastoral superintendence. The Commissioners declared in their report that the charge for seats must be reduced ; but that, in addition to this, -an impulse must be given to induce those to attend a place of worship who hitherto, from want of accommodation, were not in the habit of doing so. Now, the mode of impulsion suggested was a very simple one. The Right Hon. Gentleman here read an extract from the report, respecting the scat-rents and the duties of the pastor. Now, this had been proved by what had actually taken place, both in Edinburgh and in Glasgow. This could not he effected by the voluntary principle. It could not be relied upon. That principle had been put to the trial both is and out of the Established Church of Scotland—it had 1 een tried in chapels of case, and it had failed. The corn: bincd efforts of the Dissenters had not succeeded in giving it complete success, f or even i n Edi n b urg h a l one t h ere were 50,000 who had no opportunity of receiving religious in struction. Were matters to remain in this state ? Was there they any venture Gentleman to ay that oughtosit e side to or remain the m a i ' ri He House who would were these 50,000 to be reclaimed from the deplorable state in which they must be, as regarded religious instruction ? It was from this class, and from the purlieus of the city of Edinburgh, that the calendars were filled with criminals. Of what consider ation was the paltry sum o f ten thousand pounds or twelve thousand pounds a-year, to be expended in the endowment of Churches, compared to the advantage of reclaiming so many from their evil ways and th e i r present degraded condition ? It was to this circumstance—the want of adequate Church ac commodation—that he imputed the great advance which crime had made within the last thirty years. In the year 1815, the expenditure, under the head of prosecution of crime was only six thousand pounds, while in 1836 it was thirty-six thousand pounds, and in the present year would be thirty-four thousand pounds. What cause could be assigned for this great increase but a gradual decline in the moral and religious habits of the people, arising from a want of sufficient Church accommoda tion ? The people of Scotland themselves were ready to come forward and contribute their portion towards the ex pense of erecting additional Churches, and of endowin g them, without any wish to share in the patronage.—(ll ear , hear.) All th ey d es i red was, that the humbler classes' . might be accommodated with seats at a moderate charge.— ( Hear.) Was it too much to ask that the Government should assist in conferring so great a blessing on l Scotland, whi c h con tributed no les s th an 4,500,0001.t0 the taxes ? It might be said th a t t h ey had as •eatererl sub ject , of Tithes in S cot l and. heThis information of the denied. A return, showing their amount, was already obtained, and there was no occasion to wait for that. Were the ve make any proposition ? Th ere was government prepared prepared to property in Scotland upon which they could lay their heads. BefOre the co Reformation the Church was in p ossession of perty, but that was finally dispo se d o f . Now, he i tvderao ü b l le pro this question to the Noble Lord —w as i t the intention ef 4p o ut vernment to take the whole Scotch Tithes, and to convert them into one fund ? If so, the Noble Lord must take all ti;' Tithes belonging to lay impropriators. It had been intimated in some quarters that the subject had been delayed because in point of fact it was not worthy the attention of Government. He could assure the Noble Lord, however, that it produced ;• strong sensation in Scotland. Allusion had been made to in the Speech from the Throne, which had produced th, greatest satisfaction in Scotland, and greatly excited the hopes of the people. But not a single step had been yet taken towards the accomplishment of the expectations that had bee: raised. It was true, indeed, that a Committee was granted, and Commissioners appointed, but no more. Governmete held out the word of promise to the ear, but broke it t, the hope. It was not a party question. If it was hi, object to favour the party with which he was in the habit of acting, he could not do it more effectually than by allowing' Ministers to put off indefinirely the considerwion of this qucs Lion. If a i attempt should be made to set it aside upon an . pretence, it would produce more excitement irt his country that the Noble Lord was aware of, and he would see the Scotel , thistle branching forth more vigorously than ever. Let the Noble Lord, therefore, come forward manfully, and declare what he was prepared to do upon a question most essential to the well-being of Scotland.—(Cheers.) The question having been put from the Chair, that the fol lowing resolutions be agreed to : " 1. That an Address having been presented to the King by the House of Commons, humbly praying, ' That his Ma jesty would be graciously pleased to appoint a Commission t, inquire into the opportunities of religious worship, and means of religious instruction and pastoral superintendence afforded to the people of Scotland, and how far these are of avail fee the religious and moral improvement of the poor, and of the working classes, and with this view, to obtain information re specting their stated attendance in places of public worship, and their actual connection with any religious denomination. to inquire what funds are now or may hereafter be available for the purpose of the Established Church of Scotland, and to report from time to time, in order that such remedies may be applied to any existing evils, as Parliament may think fit,' his Majesty was pleased, on the 20th day of July 1835, to issue such Commission. " 2. That the Commissioners so appointed made a first re port on the matters referred to them as applicable to those parishes in the Presbytery of Edinburgh, where the want of the means of religious instruction was alleged to exist, which report was laid beore the House of Commons on the 7th of February, 1837. " 3. That it appears from this Report that the population in the city of Edinburgh and its suburbs amounts to 162,292 of whom, after deducting persons belonging to religious de nominations other than the Established Church, there remain 91,021 ; and that the total number of sittings in the Churches belonging to the Establishment amounts to 36,001. It further appears from the Report, that the number of persons capable of attending religious worship, who habitually absent them. selves from such worship, ' cannot be less than from 40,000 to 50,000.' " 4. That the said Report sets forth ' as the result of the whole evidence, that from whatever cause it proceeds, whe ther connected with their extent or nature, the opportu nities of public religious worship, and the means of religious instruction and pastoral superintendence at present existing and in operation, are not adequate to the removal of the evils complained of.' " 5. That it is the opinion of this House, that the said re port should be taken into immediate consideration, with the view of remedying the evils acknowledged to exist within the districts to which it refers, by extending the means of reli gious instruction and pastoral superintendence furnished b) the Established Church of Scotland, and rendering them avail able to all classes of the community." Lord J. RUSSELL said the motion was brought forward to obstruct the supplies, and it was the second time this course had been followed by gentlemen opposite. He could not be lieve that the motive assigned by the Right Hon. Gentleman for bringing the question forward now was the real motive. He well recollected why another motion relative to the affairs of Spain was brought forward on a late occasion. —(Hear, hear.) It was because the British Legion had sustained a reverse.—(Loud cheers.) But if, on the contrary, the British troops had gained an advantage instead of having suffered a defeat, the motion to which he referred would not have been introduced.—(Hear, hear.) He could see similar motives in the motion now before the House. The fact was, the next meeting of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland was at hand, in which there was a sort of theological battle to be fought, • and the present motion was brought forward to give the Right Hun. Gentleman oppo site an opportunity of telling them that his Majesty's Mi nisters would not agree to it—( Hear, hear)—and of complain ing'of the manner in which the subject was treated in the House of Commons.—( Hear, hear.) Conceiving such to be the motive of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he (Lord J. Rus sell) did not think fit to say that he considered it right or pro per that the general business of the country should -submit to delay on account of his motion or its objects.—(Cheers.) What were the facts with regard to the question? The Right lion. Gentleman said that for six long years—and he took especial care to remind the House that it was six long years—his friends had been out of power, and that before the present Government came into office there had elapsed a pe riod of no less than forty-five years, during which the evil of which he complained had been gaining head.—( Hear, hear.) What, then, was the party to which the Right Hon. Gentle man belonged during that period ? They were, during a great portion of it, voting millions and hundreds of millions of the public money to support expensive wars.—( Hear, hear.) In a single year they had voted, he believed, one hundred and forty millions for things which, though the Right Honourable Gentleman now said they considered the objects of the present motion of paramount importance, they evidently thought at that time more necessary to be attended to than the interests of the Church of Scotland.—Hear, hear.) But what had been the course pursued during the two years to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had more particularly referred ? There had been a Commission of Inquiry issued, which had gone through a great deal of heavy labour in investigating subjects of a minute nature, and the Report of that Commis sion had not been made until very lately. Under these cir cumstances, he considered it would be better that the House should await some further Report of the Commissioners, rather than act upon what it at present was only imperfectly ac quainted with. The Right Hon. Gentleman gave no reason why the sum of 10,0001 , which he stated was required, should he granted s- and his resolutions did not fairly represent the facts of the case, which were totally different to those the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated. If he ( Lord .1. Russell) were disposed to rely on a single fact only he could also read a passage from the Report of the Commissioners, containing a statement quite as fair as those comprised in the resolutions of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He found that, according to the calculations in the Report, taking all the Churchei and Chapels together, that the amount of those who regularly attended places of worship was 77,795, which would bring the number of those requiring Church accommodation below the figure named by the Right Hon.. Gentleman. The Report. however, in its; present state, did not point out either the special evil or a special remedy. The Right Hon. Gentleman had quoted the opinion of Dr. Chalmers. He ( Lord J. Rus sell) would do the same. That Rbv. Gentleman had been asked the following question : " Do you think that the evil of church destitution could be remedied entirely, or in part, by the multiplication of mis sionaries to a great extent ?" To this question Dr. Chalmers had replied,— " This forms a very good initial operatiOn, and I would much rather that it was never dispensed with. If we were to run up a number of churches at this moment we ehould be exposed . to the mortifying view of empty benches. The first point should be a parochial missionary, to cultivate the dis trict : the process should begin there, but should not end there. After he had done the work to a certain extent, and filled his station, he should be translated into a higher status ; and the circutnstance of his becoming an ordained Minister, and of his being enabled to dispense ordinances, would give him a ten-fold greater ascendancy over his district." —( Hear, hear.) Now, in that opinion of Dr. Chalmers it was evident that he considered the single fact of building churches not sufficient. In that opinion he ( Lord John Russell) concurred. He thought that in any parish where there was a want of religious instruction, the employment of missionaries would bo accompanied by great ad vantage ; and he also agreed with Dr. Chalmers in the opinion that they ought afterwards to b© ordained.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Dissenters said that missionaries should be employed, but that they ought to be composed both of mem bers of the Established Church and of Dissenters, and that they ought to be supported by voluntary contributions.— ( Hear, hear, hear.) Now, that alone was enough to open the whole question to consideration. With respect to the supply of the spiritual wants, about which so much had been said, he had been told that the evidence which had been taken before the Commissioners bad done much towards causing a great increase in the number of missionaries employed in the Scottish parishes. There could be no doubt the object with the view of effecting which the Commission had been appoint ed, was a desirable object ; but there was no question which demanded greater care with regard to the manner in which it should be carried into effect.--( Hear, hear.) If they were to act on the present Report only, the result of their measure might, after all, be but a fruitless work, and all their endea vours end in anything but an improvement of the religion of the people. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said much with respect to the spiritual wants of the people of Scotland, and also of the landed proprietors bearing the hurthen of pro viding church room for the poorer classes. But be had not been sufficiently precise and definite upon the points, whether spiritual instruction or the interest of the landed proprietors was the primary object. He (Lord John Russell) did not consider that a subject like this ought to be considered through the medium of delusive resolutions such as these.—( Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman said that his Majesty's Govern ment ought at once to say whether or not they would vote a grant of the public money for this object. He ( Lord John Russell) could not at present say yes or no ; but he would say what the Government were disposed to do when a fuller report should have been furnished, and was not ready to agree to a premature resolution for the mere purpose of avoiding any prc judics Hon. Gentlemen opposite might wish to excite a gainst the Government by pointing them out as the enemies of the Church—( Hear)—er Os being unwilling to remedy any evils which, be it remembered, had not grown up under them, but which were the growth of a period of not less than thirty years, and required that some considerable time should be expended in well and maturely considering them.—(Cheers.) Sir G. CLERK regretted to have heard a speech of that nature from the Noble Lord, in reply to the observations of his Right Hon. Friend. —( Hear.) The Noble Lord had called it a party question ; but he ( Sir G. Clerk) assorted that there never was a question brought forward in that House which par took less of a party nature than the present.—( Cheers.) There had been numerous meetings held upon the subject, and the Whigs of Scotland had shown the greatest possible anxiety to 1 I.L L 4 1.3 4...) .11 5 _LA V J.. 1J %_5 11 k ix. 1 j I_l 11 _X 5 £V Jl.ll 1 kJ 11, come forwari and give the.CommissioLers all the sul port and lssisianeein their power. Lord J. RUSSELL here made an observation which (as we understood) related to the short time the Government hid hitherto had to• bring forward any measure in connection with :he question, or the Commissioners to report upon it. Sir G. CLERK—Time I Why, had there not been time enough since the Commission was appointed, in 1833 ? ( Hear.) It had, been now on foot upwards of two years, at an .expense to the country of about 17,000/., and the report the Commissioners had sent in related only to the City of Edin burgh end three other parishes.—( Hear.) Now, he thought the Noble Lord might at least have ssid that the Government .vould take it into consideration as far as it went. The Noble Lord said the resolution of his Right Hon. Friend was delusive. But what was there in it contrary to the facts?— ( Hear.) With respect to the vacant seats in the 'Dissenting chapels, would the Noble Lord think of naming, as an excuse for not endowing, the Church of the Establishment, the fact of there being plenty of empty seats in other chapels in Edinburgh? Perhaps there were no places of worship in Edinburgh which were worse attended than the Catholic chapels ; but would the Noble Lord send Presbyterians to hear mass in Catholic cha pels ?—( Hear, hear.) Let him call the attention of the Noble Lord to the fact that his Right Hon. Friend had not embodied in his resolutions anything which was not the result of the Commission of Inquiry. With respect to the landed pro prietors of Scotland there was no class of the community on which exclusively the Church burthens were so heavily thrown is upon them.—( Hear.) In Scotland no complaint of Church rates was heard. And why but because they were a tax which wee entirely thrown upon landed proprietors.—( Hear, hear.) Their burthens were heavier far than those of their correspond ing class, either in England or Ireland. In the districts of Glasgow in which the poorer classes resided, among whom, he was sorry to say, there were many who were more frequently in the police-oltice than the house of God, not two-and-a-half per cent. of the population had church room —( Hear.) In Edinburgh there were from 40,000 to 50,000 persons who never Attended a place of worship at all, and, under such circumstances is these, did it become a Christian Government to interpose the delay of a single day in applying a remedy for such evils ? His Right Hon. Friend had said already that 150 churches had been built in Scotland at the expense of private indi duals. What they wanted, therefore, was not a large and exorbitant sum of money, but only such a grant as would enable them to admit the poor into them at a reasonable cost— ( Hear, hear)—and pay as small a remuneration as the cir cumstances would admit of to the Clergyman to whose care they would be entrusted. ( Hear, hear.) They had a strong claim on the Government, and they put it forward with no view to relieve the rich, but to enable them to give their poorer fellow-creatures church accommodation at as cheap a rate as possible. He thought the Government ought to come forward with provision for the extension of the means of edu cation to the Scottish people. At the same time he thought that, wherever an endowment was made, the Clergyman ought to be placed under the strictest regulations as regarded the letting of the seats. Ile thought it ought to be made a condition of the endowment that the scat-rents should he fixed at the lowest possible sum, in order to admit of their use by the greatest possible number of persons. The Noble Lord had told them that the Cymmissioners were still en gaged in other branches of inquiry, which they had not been able to complete—partieularly that which related to the un appropriated tithes in Scotland. Why, what difficulty was there in the way of their haring made this report complete in this respect as regarded Edinburgh? The greater part of these unappropriated tithes were in the city of Edinburgh. It was a well-known fact that most of the Clergy of Edinburgh were maintained by a house tax. The remaining churches were unendowed, and were paid by scat rents. Before these there were the rural parishes. There would have been no difficulty whatever in obtaining all the requisite information on these heads, had the Commissioners been so disposed. One fact that had come to his knowledge would illustrate the conduct of the Commissioners. Was the Noble Lord aware that the Commissioners, having applied at the Dean's Office for cer tain information, was met by a request for a grant of money for additional assistance, in order to enable them, by the em ployment of an additional clerk to supply the necessary re turns in sufficient time. This request was refused, and the Commissioners, consequently, would have to pursue that branch of the inquiry at a future time. So, in order to save 501. for the salary of a copying clerk, this Commission was to sit another year at the expense of thousands I It was the duty of Government to have seen to its instructions, that no such practice as this could occur.—( Hear, hear.) Then as to the amount of the Church property. It was a matter of no consequence whatever to ascertain the precise amount. If it was large, why there was then the greater reason for a large grant. The greater part of the property had already been transferred to the Commissioners of land revenue, and it now formed a part of the Consolidated Fund. If, too, there was a large amount arising out of the Bishop's rents at the disposal of the Crown, it added a still stronger argument in favour of this demand. • A great part of those rents were now unappro priated. That this grant was really wanted no man who knew the present state of a great portion of the populace of Edin burgh and other parts of Scotland could doubt. Did any one doubt the benefits derivable from the habits induced by reli gious iastruction ? It was but necessary to look at the con dition and general habits of those who had received such instruction to be convinced how absolutely necessary it was to the well-being of the State. If the Noble Lord would once try the experiment lie would soon be aware of the results. He would find it in the decreased expense of criminal prosecutions in Scotland, of the increase of which lately the Lord Advocate had already given so alarming a statement. He would also find the consequences of it apparent in the decreased expense of the preventive police of the country, and in the general re duction of crime. Mr. J. H. JOHNSTONE entered into a detailed state ment of the proceedings of the Commissioners, from their ap pointment to the delivery of the Report, for the purpose of showing that, situated as they had been, they could not pos sibly have proceeded with more dispatch. In voting for the resolutions he hoped to have credit given to him for sincerity, and for its being impossible for . him to mix up any extraneous or unworthy considerations in a question of such vital and so lemn interest. That a case had been made out on behalf of the supporters of the resolutions was, he thought, beyond question. Out of a population of 160,000 in Edinburgh not less than 40,000 were not habitual attendants at church, and 14,000 there were who professed not to belong to any sect of Christians whatever.—( Hear, hear.) It was stated that there was a deficiency of a thousand seats in Edinburgh, but he thought the actual want was double that number. But, what ever the relative numbers might be, it was equally the duty of the Government to interfere. This subject could not much longer be deferred. The country wee anxiously looking for some act on the part of the Government, and the Noble Lord might depend upon it that, apart from all other considerations, good policy alone called on him to sta n d f orwar d an d su pp or t the Establishment.—( Cheers. ) Lord J. RUSSEL L rose in explanation. He had been misunderstood if he had been supposed to make any charge against the Commissioners. All he meant to convey was, that the Commissioners, not having been able to come to any pre cise and definite report, not having presented any specific re medy, it became the more necessary for the Government care fully to consider the subject. He would take that opportu nity of stating further that, while he admitted the existence of the evil, and that undoubtedly it was a fit case for the deepest consideration, yet that as regarded both the nature of that evil and the proposed remedy, considerable doubt must be enter tained. With respect to the nature of the evil he was by no means sure that it could be asserted to arise chiefly from the want of accommodation in the Churches, for he vas aware that instruction was not given to the people in their own houses. However, in whatever way the subject was considered it was one of the deepest importance, and one which required the most mature: consideration by the Governmerit. Mr. GILLON thought that the lion. Mover and his sup porters, might have spared the House this discussion at the pre sent moment, and that they might have waited until the Com missioners had made a more full report. So intense, however, was the zeal of the Hon. Gentlemen, that they pressed the I huse to come to a decision, even_ on an incomplete report. Ile had some objection to make to the statements on the other side with respect to the want of religious instruction in Edin burgh. It was stated that the population was 162,292. But, according to the received estimates in the legal Courts, the number requiring Church accommodation was 72,132. Now, what was the Church accommodation in Edinburgh ? Why, the accommodation in Churches was for 36,706 ; in the Dis senting places of worship for 42,000. These, added together, made 78,706. If from this sum was deducted the number of persons requiring accommodation, it would appear that there was a surplus of accommodation for 6,574 over and above the actual demand for it. At this moment there were no less than 21,154 vacant seats in Dissenting places of worship. From one of the boroughs which he (Mr. Gillen) represented an account was sent in to the General Assembly of a deficiency of accommodation for 4,200. On in quiry, however, it turned out that there was actually a sur plus accommodation for 1,000, if the Dissenting accommoda tion was taken into the account. Again, it was stated in the report, deducting from the whole population the Dissenters, that there was a deficiency of accommodation for 4,348 ; but in the report it also appeared (at pp. 4 and 23) that four addi tional churches had since been built, and that additional ac commodation for 621 had been added to another church. It was also urged that the amount paid for the scat rent was too high. But he found that in the churches of the Establish ment alone there were 6,317 seats paying less than ss. per an num ; and, unlet and unoccupied, 248 paying annually less than 2 5.; 708 unlct and unoccupied paying from 2s. to 3s. per annum; and, unlet and unoccupied, 3,301 seats at less annual cost than ss. Now, when that was the case, how could it be said that there was any want of seat accommodation ? lie agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet the Member fur Edinburgh that the people of Scotland were averse to church accommodation unless they paid for it ; but having shown that there were 3,301 seats at ss. a year, and 1,000 at less than 35., unoccupied in the churches of the metropolis, he certainly should like to know how the Right lion. Baronet justified the picture of destitution which he had drawn.—( Hear, hear.) But it was proposed by the Hon. Members opposite that the parochial system should be adopted in Edinburgh. If he un derstood their proposition it was that the city should be di vided iitto districts, and that each should have its own church and minister, to whose ministration the population of each par ticular district was to be confined. If that were to be the pa rochial system which was intended, all lie need say was that ,the report of the Commissioners clearly showed that it would be altogether inapplicable. There was one parish in Edin burgh, i n w hi c h a popu l ar preacher h a d officiated for the last .six or seven years, and it was a curious fact that out of the whole of his parishioners only seven individuals and two fa milies had attended his ministrations during , six of those years. Now the stipend which this clergYinan received was from 2,0001. to 3,0001. a-year, and if the ministers to be appointed under the new parochial system were to be paid according to the same ratio, sec what an enormous ex- pense it would entail on the public'.—(lkar, hear.) It wtts stated by the Commi ss i oners i n their report that there were in Edinburgh from 40,900 to 50,000 persons who were not in the habit of attending Divine worship in the churches; bu for his own part he was wholly at a loss to know how they had arrived at any such a result. He now came to the resolutions and their promoters. tie bad shown that there was an immense number of seats unoecupiee, and therefore must suppose that those who proposed the building and en dowment of additional churches ascribed to the walls of such fabrics virtues which he could not think they possesbed. He did not believe that there was any justification for the propo sition for building additional churches, because, when he found that there were 15,000 or 16,500 who were not in the habit of attending public worship, and so large a number of seats unoccupied, he could not give credence to the statement that any great degree of destitution eisted. The Dissenters of Seotilnd c sold refer with pride and satisfaction to their exer tions in the way of church extension, and the ministration of their missionaries; and, for his own part, he thought that much more good could be done through the instruntentality of missionaries, than by building of churches. At all events, by the adoption of such a system, there would b a material diminution in the way of- expense. Now, what was it that the Hon. Members opposite proposed? Why, nothing more nor less than that a grant of public money should be made for the purpose of enciowiag cluirches, and chapels of ease in the first instance. That was, in effect, to take a burden off the shoulders of the wealthy and great, which they bad hitherto voluntarily borne, in the most praise-wor-: thy manner ; but this *as not the way to benefit the poor.- - ( Hear) If they once concurred in such a proposition, what would be the effect? Why, that they would establish a prin ciple by which a sum of perhaps twenty millions of the public money might before long be called for, in order to meet the ;exigencies of Church ministrations in England and Scotland. —(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baranet had told them their inquiry was useless, and had attributed the delay which had taken place to the Government; but was that the fact ? ( Hear.) Notwithstanding the Right Hon. Baronet had de nied being actuated by any such motives, he (Mr. Gillon) must express it as his belief that the present motion was dic tated more by political partisanship than by religious zeal.— ( Hear.) If the rules of the House permitted it he would have moved, by way of amendntent, a counter resolution; but, as he was precluded from adopting any such course, he must content himself with voting against the motion of the Right Hon. Baronet, on the ground that he believed the demand now made was uncalled for, and that there existed no well founded pretence fur granting the public money for any pur pose of the kind.—( Hear.) Sir R. PEEL said that the Noble Lord bad referred to the sum of 140,000,0001., which had been expended during the last year of the war in 1815, and which had been necessary to support that mighty contest, which had been concluded by the glorious battle of Waterloo.—(Cheers.) Now the House of Commons had expressed their entire concurrence in the policy of that expenditure, artd unless he were very much mistaken the Noble Lord himself did not dissent by his vote from the address presented to the Crown on that memorable occa sion.—(Cheers.) He thought also that if the Noble Lord inquired he would find among his colleagues men who had given their cordial support to the policy which the Noble Lord thought fit now to condemn, and which terminated, as had already been stated, in the glorious battle of Waterloo (Loud cheers.) But all this was beside the question before the House, nor could he bring himself to think that it would be taken as conclusive proof that the religious institu tions of Scotland did not call for consideration.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord had objected to any partial consideration of the question now, although when he appointed the Commissioners he expresslystated that he contemplated that they would make periodical reports, which were to receive separate considera tion. They had before them the report relating to the city of Edinburgh, and, therefore, could there be any good reason shown why they should not at once proceed to the considera tion of the state of religious instruction in that metropolis, with a view to affording a remedy if any crying evils were proved to exist ?—( Loud cheers.) But the Hon. Gentleman who last addrdsed the House had said that they would not be justified in interfering at present. Now, what were the facts stated in the Report ? Why, that not less than from 40,000 to 50,000 persons, not mere children, but that part of the adult population who ought to go to Church, who were both capable and able to attend, were in the habit of neglecting public worship entirely. If ever there were facts which rendered the interference of the Legislature necessary, these were the circumstances.—( Hear, hear.) His Right 'Hon. Friend had called on them to apply their consideration to the, separate case of the metropolis, and the reason he did so was; that there were 50,000 persons in Edinburgh who altogether neglected divine worship. This was stated in the Report:— " But the principal reason, and that of which all parties concur in admitting the force, is the indifference of the people themselves. This occurs from various causes : some are in extreme poverty, so occupied in obtaining the means of sub sistence, and so absorbed in their own sufferings, that they have no thoughts to bestow on other subjects. The Rev. Mr. Bennie observes, that they cannot tell how they live, nor what they do, so that to ask if they went to church would be a piece of supererogation.' " Others arc ,indifferent, because their attention has never been called to the subject of religion, and they remain in the total ignorance of the duties which it imposes. " Many (says the Rev. Dr. Clarke) do not even know the first truths of religion —you might as well preach to them in Hebrew as in English. " A large portion again are sunk in habits of debauchery which render them quite insensible to every feeling, either of religion or morality. Some frightful instances of depravity appear in Dr. Lee's evidence, and the printed reports of the transactions of missionary societies. Intemperance in the use of spirituous liquors is said to be a great source of evil." Now this was the state in which from forty thousand to fifty thousand persons in Edinburgh were described to him, and he did, therefore, ask that House whether they did not think it advisable to apply, at all events to a limited extent, a remedylto such evils, and whether the Femoral of such evils ought not to counterbalance all the speculative objections that could be made on the subject.—(Cheers.) There was a publication entitled " Statistics of the Church Accommoda tion of Glasgow," a document of great importance, which gave much valuable information on the subject. That pub• lication stated some striking facts respecting the proportions of the population marked by the commission of crime and the habitual neglect of Divine worship. He begged the atten tion of the House to the simple statement which this record of the statistics of Glasgow furnlshed. It said—" Now the records of our statistics furnish one class of facts, and the records of our police-office and bridewell furnish another, which enable us experimentally to determine this point. By an examination of our statistics, and of the sur vey of the parochial agents, we find that in Goosedale, Bridge . gate, Old and New \Vynds, Saltmarket, Old and New Ver mals, Havannah, Dempster.areet, and the poor districts of Corbels and Calton, the people only possess church accom modation in the proportion of 2f, 24, 5,8, or 11 in the 100. And from positive and personal inquiry we can state, on the authority of the captain of the police and the Magistrates on the one hand, and of the Governor and Chaplain of Bride well on the other, that nearly all the criminals who arc tried by the one and immured in the other, come from those very places we have just cuumeratsd, where the people are so des titute of church accommodation ; while from those quarters of the city where the people possess church accommodation in the prqportion of 50, 60, 70, or 80, in the 100, the police. office has no criminals, and Bridewell has no inmates. These experimental Gets clearly indicate the relative power and influence of the fear of God and the fear of man— the instruction of the Church and - the coercion of Bridewell, in securing the peace and order of society. And, since no thing which tends to promote that object can be alien to the spirit or design of Government, with such positive facts as these it does excite our wonder how the speculative , opinion that the State has nothing to do with religion ever came to be entertained."—(Cheers.) Why, if they only considered the question with reference to the narrow principles of pecuniary economy, his opinion was, without looking at all to the moral policy of the matter, that, by giving the means of attending Divine worship to the great mass of the population, they would effect a saving, that, even in a money point of view, would outweigh all other advantages.—( Cheers.) He would make this offer to the people of Scotland, " If you provide churches, the State shall supply the expenses of endowments." —(Cheers.) That was the limit which he would apply in the first instance, before he granted Parliamentary aid ; and he would have this conclusive evidence that such aid was neces sary, namely, that before any grant of public money was made, he would call the voluntary assistance of those into operation who were the best able to judge of the necessity, from local interest, and an intimate knowledge of what was necessary for the wants of the people. In this way the whole expense would not exceed 20,0001. a year, because they would insure the erections of,thc buildings by means of voluntary contributions. If they could induce voluntary contributions sufficient for the religious wants of the poor in the towns, it would be all well and good ; but if they could not, then he thought the Legis lature ought to slip in and insist on making a proper provision for the religious and moral education of the people.—(Cheers.) It was said by those who vindicated the rights of the Dissent ers, that they ought not to be burdened for this ; but he must say that lie thought that a radical fallacy. If there were large classes of the population of the towns avowedly irreligious, and who infested the public streets for the purposes of crime, surely a stronger case for the interference of Parliament could not possibly be made out. He admitted that building churches would not be of much avail—that i building churches and pro viding for sittings would only go a little way to remedy the evil complained of. Dr. Chalmers said that besides remov ing the present barrier there should be a propelling motive added, and therefore it was necessary that they should provide psoper ministers who would exert themselves in endeavouring to reclaim the people from bad and dissolute habits by convinc ing them that a due attention to their religious duties and public worship would not only be a consolation tb them in their distress, but would rescue themselves and their families from degradatiUn.—( Hear, hear.) He thought the fact statedin the report, that there were in Edinburgh 40,000 or 50,000 persons who were in the habit of neglecting diline worship, fully justified them in proceeding with the considers tion of this resolution. Until the buildings were erected they would not be called on for the endowments, and by taking this course they would give an incredible stimulus to the rats- ing of churches wherever religious instruction was needed.— ( Cheers.) On these grounds he believed it to be their duty to concur in the present proposition, and he for one, as a member of the Church of England, was willing to bear his full share of whatever contributions might be necessary. Mr. HORSMAN said that when his Hon. Friend appealed to the indulgence of the House as one of the Commissioners whose Report was under discussion, he also felt inclined to make a similar appeal, with a hope that it would be similarly received ; but, thinking the House exhausted, be refrained. Since, however, the Right Hon. Baronet (the Member for Tannworth) had once more roused their interest, he was in- alined to take advanta'e of the attend( in he had excited. As his (Mr. Horsman's) name was appem led to that Report, he felt it his day, although with sine per tonal inconvenience, to be present on this occasion. Now, having lis:cned attentively to all that fell from the Right Hemeure dale Baronet, must say, that all the mystification and oenfusion titer h lied an example of that evening, was in his owls speech. „ fished he could add., that also was tines illiugly lining 1,-, But that certainly had not been the case ; :het apeeedt v.T.s intended to produce much effect :, and had eerteirdy coat much preparation, for with all hi a willingness to give fait credit to him in that line, he di. i not think he ecl!d have: given vent to such a long train . . of ignorance and inconsis tencies, without a very great deal of "preparation indeed. The Commissioners had a very difficut t task to perform; but, al. though they had all parties to ei,i•ounter, the 5- fi.dshcd their task to the satisfaction of each. Ele was convinced that the Right Hon. Baronet who brotight fterward the resent metiee was actuated with a view to a emit ing elisetion reth„.r tl:an by a religious feeling,, but - he sheeald not be so forgetful of the past, as not to recollect that it as his e own friends who had placed the Church of Scotland iv its present situation. The present Government had not had ati opportunity to confer benefits on - the Church of Scotland. - - They had not even the power to remove the mischiefs which their predechsera introduced. He (Mr. ilarseuraii) - had' lately had an oppor tunity of observing from personal inspection the state of the Church of Scotland, and of forming a co 'eat opinion respect ing it, and be could state that the opini'.ons which had been expressed concerning it were not correcie The Right Hon. Baronet did not state correctly that the Corereissioners had taken a year and a half to make up their Report aorie. The Right Hon. Baronet ought to have known thatlast year the. Commissioners were actively employed in making .110e..e . nt quiries in Scotland to which the cloth Vdemher for• Dume • frieshire had referred. At the end of the last Seseien of Par liament the Commissioners had written to him to far that they very much feared that they Would not be alio to make. up their report in time to be ready for thenextemeetingeof Parliament, and so urgent were the requests of the Commissioners, e.-td • such their anxiety, that, contrary to advicerogiven hint on ac count of the state of his health, he gave up -every day from the rising of the last Session of Parliament, to the sitting of the present one in travelling through the couittry, making inqui ries and assisting to make up the Report. He had acted in this way in opposition to advice that was given him, and at a sacrifice which he was now offering of not hiving been able to attend to his duties in Parliament during the course of the present session. Having gone through evensive districts in Scotland, he had had an opportunity of pemonal observation, and making inquiries of the Ministers throe...meta the country, and he did not hesitate to say that the Church of Scotland was the most perfect establishment that these countries possessed. It had none of those enormities by which the Churches of End land and Ireland were disgraced. It had no rerenuee de rived from a famished population to suppore the dOctrines of a small minority of the people. It had no large revenues to bribe its friehds—no rich translations—no retainers of deaneries and prebendaries. The Church of Scotland was digraced by no monstrosities. It was an woeful and popular Church—popular from its unpretending character, and useful from the conduct of its Ministers: The Clergy, instead of being chosen from among the scions of Aristocracy, were taken from amongst the people. • With ince mes seldom less than 1501. per annum, and seldom exceeding- 3001., they lived in moderate independence, and no Establishment possessed a more zealous, efficient, or labouring Clergy than were the Clergy of the Church of Scotland. Such was the character which they possessed previous to the time when they were ad mitted to political privileges under the Reform Bill. What the it character would be now was still a matter of experiment. Previous to 1832 the cry of the Church in danger had not been heard in Scotland. The people then had no votes, and there was no cry raised there then. But then a change came, and the Church, which had heretofore been looked to merely as a means of religious instruction, became a new engine of power. Accordingly, when a new Government was _formed in 1834, the Church was put up to auction,. and' the first bid wss made by a paragraph in the King's Speech in 1835.. That Speech had been called by a high au thority a series of claptrap:, and i.e ce uld take upon himself to say that a greater claptrap than that in reference to the Church of Scotland was never introduced into any speech. It was a skilful move; it was made an excellent handle for agita tion ; and - he could say that such agitators as the Members for Ednburghshire aed:Bute had never been before known in Scot land. Such proficieuey in the art of agitation had already been acquired by the Hon. Member for Edinburghshire that when lie had another year's practice he would back him against any one. But let them see the use that was made of the Church. as an instrument of agitation. It was the first topic at all their public meetings—it was foremost in all their written docu ments—and it was the first toast. at all their festive meetings. Was it not in accordance with a pledge given by the Hon. Mem ber for Bute at oneof these public dinners that he had brought forward his motion to-night? In November last a public dinner was given at Dalkeith, middle Church was, as usualebrouglit for ward. The toast was replied to by a Minister of the Church of Scotland, who, in the course of his speech, stated that his Ma jesty's Ministers had entered into a league with,the Papists of Ire. lay a and the revolu ts of Great Britain, and that the ob ject of their Lillian e was tie subversion of the Protestant fath. The Hon. Member for Bute, who spoke subaequcnt'y, complimented the eloquence of the reverend speaker—drew a pathetic picture of the wants of the Church of Scotland —and complained that whilst 500,0001. was granted to the Church of England, not a single sixpence was granted to the Church of Scotland, acd\ he stated that he was prepared to make himself a martyr in support of the interests of the Church, or of any one w' o v o tld come forward to advocate them. The Hon. Member pledged himself that when Parliament met he would bring the subject before the Legislature, and exert himself to obtain justice for Scotland.—( Ministerial cheers.) The Hon. Member for Selkirk was also present, and made similar professions. The Hon. Member was alto ready to conic forward to assert the integrity of the Church of Scotland ; and if the Hon. Members for Bute and Edin bucghshire were willing to become martyrs in the cause he supposed that he would be ready to do the same. After the gathering at Edinburgh another took piece _at Glasgow, at which forty-five clergymen of different degrees attended.— ( Loud cheers.) The Hon. Members opposite cheered this ; - but he begged to tell them that such exhibitions on the part of the Clergy were differently regarded in England and in Scot land. The Clergy of England exercised civil functions, and were mixed up with the State ; but in Scotland, on the con trary, the Clergy had always been withdrawn from interference in political concerns, and the spectacle of forty-five Clergyd men attending at a political meeting was a sight which the people of Scotland had never before seen.—(Loud cheers from both sides of the House.) From his own experience he was of opinion that the more a Clergyman shore as a poli tician the less he would he distinguished as a divine. —( Mi nisterial chaers.) Major C. BRUCE rejoiced to find both from the length and eloquence of the address which the House had just heard that the health of the Hon. Member was not so seriously af fected as his friends had apprehended.—( A laugh.) The lion. Member for Cgekermouth had commenced his speech by an attack on his Hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh shire, and lectured him on the unpopularity of prepared speeches. The Hon. Member seemed to think that to con sider the subject in respect to which a notice had been given swat a course which ought not to be pursued. However, he would not attempt to say that the Hon.- Member himself was entirely free from the imputation which he had endeavoured to cgs: upon his lion. Friend. He was sure that no one who heard him would gainsay that the Hon. Member, after the ad dress which he had delivered, was riot liable to such en impu tatio A laugh) The Hde and Gallant Cot en an en tered into a deteiled explanation of the entire circumstaraces of the meeting referred to, from which it appeared that, it being proposed that the son of Lord Moncricf should se coud a resolution, some objection was made and Lord Mon crief was substituted; but so far from Dr. Ch.:liners having had any connection with this transaction he was all the time ill in bed.—( llear.) Now he would say let the House judge from this statement of all else that had been advanced by the Hen. Gentleman. He would say ex uno disce ornncs: Whit dependence could be placed cn the a curacy of statements which might have been forced on the credulity of the Hon. Member when he had been led into such a mistake with refe rence to this fact ? The lion. Memb. r had accused Hon. Members at his side of the House with making the Church of Scotland a party question. He did not think it necessary to repel that nccustfon. But did the speech of the Hon. Member show a total f Worn from party spirit—a complete and perfect avoidance of, party asperity ? He would leave those who had heard the Hon. Member to form their own conclusions. The lion. Mcmher's speech showed that on a question which ought to be sacred from political excitement he was unable to keep himself free from the intermixture of party and polhical opi nions.--( Hear.) The Hon. Member opposite. had made it a charge against the Clergy of the Church of- Scotland that forty-five of their members had attended at a public banquet at Glasgow—at the Peel banquet.—( Hear, hear.) But when the Hon. Member took upon himself to .state that the Clergy of Scotland took - no part in politics until the franchise was forced . upon them, he would ,pleaso to remember that the Clergy of • Scotland were indebted to those who sat at the same sido of the Holm:. with the Ho nourable Member for Cockennouth for having the franchise forced upon them against. their will. - _( Resoin hear.) hIo ( Major C. Bruce) had opposed the extension of that franchise to the Clergy at the time when the Scotch Reform 8.11 was before the House, and several of the Clergy had thanked him for having done so. But this franchise having- been con • ferred upon the Clergy,. how. were they to . act ?--( Hear.) When the Legislature had forced civil duties upon the Cler. gy of the Church of Scotland, would it have become ahem to shrink from clischargiaos those duties ?—( Cheers.) lie knew .they would discharge these duties conscientiously, whether they voted fur Whig, Radical, or Conservatise._ Hear, -imam hear;) Some few years ago the Hon. Member for Bute had moved for a select Committee to inquire into tha entire subject. That motion had been met with an hmendment by the Secretary. for the Home Department, to the effect of issuing a Commission to inquire into the entire subject.. His lion. Friend, who thought at the, time it would he advantageous to his purpose to have the Government with him, assented to the proposition of the Home Secretary, and Consented to withdraw his motion. He (Major .C. Bruce) Wasehe only Mcmber.at the time who had refused his assent to shat amendment. He expressed his - decided reluctance to agree to it. His Right Honour-able Friend the Mem ber for Tamworth, who rose after him, took a different idew of the subject, and on account of the advanced period of thee session (it was then July) spoke in favour of the amend ment. He, on that account, was willing to yield to an autho rity which he had always felt disposed to respect, and with drew his opposition. The motion , for the issuing of a Com mission was consequentl )unanimously carried. The reason Why he (Major C. Bruce) felt disposed to place no confidence in a Commission was, because he distrusted the intentions and dispoSition of the Government with respec t to the Church o f