The Sun. — London, England, 1812-07-02 00:00:00

• led g e d 'a 'foreign tovekeign in sniritual or in tem- Poral matters. He would next teg_ leave to draw the attention of their Lordships to what had been done for. them since the Revolution. 7 , ,Ve hattpro-: Seeded from month to month, and from day to day, in concessions consistent with. the spirit of our C onstitution, and guarded by that cautious, po licy Whi c h s h ou ld regulate ,such proceedings. If the present Motion was carried, and. it meant not consideration but concession, as he hoped. for God's mercy, he did not think he should be living tinder the same Constitution, as hitherto. Fe4ling the w e i g h t.o f a l l those objections strongly press ing on his mind, it was his intention to conclude With a motion, upon which .he should divide the Rouse, if he was to stand alone. As _the Noble karquis (Lord Wellesley) and he had agreed on. a former occasion, that they could not you for eoneession under the existing,circuinstances, so lie '(the Lord - Chancellor) ,under similar circhinstances eould not vote forthe motion of the Noble Marquis. 'e' should sit dowh, after giVing notice to their Lordships that he meant to move the previous litestion. • The 'Earl of HafinwfoxE observed, that it was not for him to say what his ancestor would have 4 one - if they were living now ; but, as far as he innierstood their 'principles from public and from Private sources, he believed that Lord Chancellor Somers and Lord Chancellor Hardwicke, had they acted in the 'present day, would have differed ex eceditigly from the Noble upon the Wool laek• He • was surprised to hear' the futile ar • guments adopted by the Noble Lord; they ap peared to him," if they' went to any thing, to.go 1 ° this, that the door ought to have been shut ‘gainst concession at the commencement ; that l kither th e A c t s of 1778, or 1732, of 1.792,, or 1793 ,v ought to have been passed, and that the b-`4011.1e Lord ought 7 not to have been shocked I ,Y a sight so alarming as that of Roman Catho-, fi e , pleadi ng at the Irish bar. For his own part, e had been in Ireland in the years 1781 and 1 1 4 .82 before the relaxations alluded to by the (i bl ' e Lord were enacted. He had also seen it leeetitly, and be 'could state from the comparison '!e was thus enabled to draw, that its present pro- Petity in agriculture and in commeree,was owing o th ose acts. It would b e impos S ible the agricul t‘ ,qe of the country could - succeed if the Catholics 0, (1 lboured under their former disqualifications. • i( l 4 ,Lo r d s hi p went over the circumstances which inniediately succeeded the Union, praised the con et of th e M arqu i s C ornwa lli s an d M r. Pi tt , b ot h ° , f ‘vhoin res i gne d, b ecause t he expecta ti ons o f t h e (to, whom, however ; be acknowledged, t t n premi se h a d ever b een g i ven ) , cou ld not b e jalized. After some further arguments, he con hy declaring, that he should vote for the ,h. tae h Earl of CLAXCARTY said, that whatever t' e 'ige or expectation might have been held out an Go'vernment, it could not he interpreted into an• i ntention of granting all, without 'any view to t ec ° l l3panyiug securities. Having,' about two pr'Vrs ago, gone m i nu t e ly into the subject, he ° nld - net recapitulat e hi s argumen t s u p on th e t g ent occasion ; but there was one point whi c h th e telt it.necessary to press upon the attention of th e House. He did then 'say, and (continuing of : ,re ~erne opinion) should still maintain that when , 'r it - was right to take up this subject, the Ito :an Catholics of Ireland should come forward with 4 -e ndly dispositions-, and in a conciliatory tone. t e regretted to see the string of resolutions which h t 'er had lately passed ; but it was necessary to 2,lisider wh a t w as r ight to be d one , an d t o a t qu i re pT n at securities would be necessary to obviate e . danger o f th e ir unqualified admission,to all la eges. ne Duke of SUSSEX said, he did not intend to I,: t c ve spoke n ; b u t a ft er w h a t h a d f a ll en f r O m t h e , hie , Lord on the Wool sac k, h e was aga i n desi tVus of repeating hissentirnents upon this subject. • i e hoped the Noble Lord would do him the jus ,e, eto alloy:that he was as anxious to support the `'nurch and State as any other indiyidual. He S happy to find that aconsiderable• change had t a Aen plane inthe opinions o f th e p u bli c w ith res p ec t • ° the Catholic Claims. Within six weeks two at tiinpts had been made to form a, new Administra- d °n, andthe basis of both was a pledge to consi or the Catholic , claims at an early period. Surely e moment was now arrived when a question in eving the happiness . of millions ought to be 04 isidered and when civil di i stinctions between it , a A°lie and Protestant ought to be wiped 4 .: a. Y. If he .thought that such a proceeding wa.s ainst the Constitution, no man- would be far -13. f rom advising it, but thinking otherwise, he .sav e 14 _ hearty concurrence to the motion. He u,l.lght the concessions already made affb r ded an argument for granting the remainder, b r ' maintained, that the possession of wealth and R ' t ° Perty should be connected with power. He th at ed that there were now upwards of seven Cnsand places closed' against the Catholics' of a u el and ; and though he disapproved of the eon heet of eager individuals from the bottom of his vi 4 1 4 1 he deprecated the idea of charging • their e' e nee upon the whole body. Be should vote ',the motion. d"°rd HARROWBT said, that the more he consi ered the question, the more he doubted whether Q w as for th e genera l, a d v a n t age that t hi ngs s h ou ld I. l 4l aht in the same state as before the Union.— disapproved strongly of the conduct of the ti 'tholi es, i n a b an d on i ng the usual mode of peti qll, and in their subseqnent revolutions. But it. till ()11 1(1 n ot b e f orgotten , that they were adopted ti d er eirchinstances of considerable disappoint % e j't• Those only who thought that inquiry was j b l eat evil, should vote against. the motion. il Quiry must take place, and the only question them a'vas,' whether they would participate in th e gat inquiry or not ? Inquiry was- necessary. for satisf ac ti on o f b o th s id es , and would' afford Ule b est means of defeating. the , designs .of our In The Dake,of KENT expressed himself warmly th ia vour of conciliatory measures,, which he l e c ' u ght, instead of ehdangering, would tend to e i,ure our c i v il r i g ht s . H e was f ar f rom dis \N.°; `7 l ing the necessity of those guards which the esta blished Of the Legislature might require for the religion of the country, and contem goat.,ed the motion as a pledge from which every 1 4t ° q would result. He trusted that the Legisr lir e Would uot only adopt the Measure, but go , . into a 'gen - gar cons'ideratiOn 'every' Ching pressed upo the lower orders of tfie community in that nation,the correction of which ; if he w'as rightly.informed, was long and loudly :The:Archbishop of CANTEheurtY disclaimed inference, that these: whb Oppi;sed the motion were for shutting the door against consideration; - fmd as Parliament in his opinion must cdnsider the subject . next Session, whether the auction was conceded or not, he did not see the necessity of it, and therefore should not, suppOrt it. Lord ELLENBOROUGH declared, that he was not favoured.lvith any part of that ; illumination which bad fallen so brilliantly upon the minds of sonic „Noble, Lords, and more particularly on that of the Noble Marquis (Wellesley), who' had been the day-star, since the ,13th of January; (a laugh )-- A Noble Earl-on the opposite bench ; did not ap pear to hini. to be much more fortunate. After voting against going into a committee on a for mer occasion, he was willing to pledge the Muse to adopt an inquiry now, though there existed no change of circumstances to justify the alteration'. As for hiniself, he was a man' of simple habit; he loved consistency and truth. For this reason he honoured his Noble -Friends upon his left (though he differed from them 'in opinion on the subject) when in a consistent march in favour of a measure whose justice and policy they support ed„.they evinced their sincerity by the sacrifice-of rank and power to a proposition which did not go one-tenth part so far as that which was now under' discussio?, ; a proposition On which- they were thus driven over -by the very mouths which now agreed with theni. He stood there in support of consistency and' truth, -and' all that was dignified , in the characters of men. He 'was not against' concession ; God forbid ! but he was against 'giv ing the staff .of power out of his hand before he knew whethq it would be necessary to wield it in his defence.-(lledr, hear 1).----He thought that the system of conciliation should be combined With a system of security, and believed, if those . securities were agreed' upon, that a man of plain understanding might comprise all the Catholics wanted in a short Act of Parliament. There was . one difficulty out of which he could never see his way. The Boman Catholics were not in the :same, situation with other DiSsenters in remird. to regard 441, reign allegiance. It was true, that the evils to ..)4 apprehended from this were, much alleviated by the present condition - 0f theTope ; but yvhO was it that imposed these fettefir,;on him %—litiona parte; and was it' not to be gored. that the man dates he might issue would find odedience in many parts Without regard' to the degraded cell from whencethey derived their authority-? Lord Hor,LikNia said; he should decline enter ing into the details of the question, and expressed - his satisfaction at the progress which this subject- . -had made. His Lordship, hoWever, went over Most of his former arguments upon this subject, and after alluding t. the oaths taken by them, ridiculed the apprehension entertained respecting .tie admission'ot Catholics into Parliathent while . taey were suffered to enter into the army and navy. He vindicated thei r genera l character, and contended that even their excesses proved them worthy the boon they asked. It would be wise to do something to conciliate them by giving the proposed pledge, and.he should therefore give his most hearty vote for the motion. The LORD CHANCELLOR explained. Lord MuLosAvE went over the reasons which had influenced himself and his Noble Friends in opposing the consideration of the Catholic Claims before, and proved that at ,the present time, the obstacles which were before in the way were in a .great measure removed.. Lie thought it would be well for their Lordships to take the _subject into their inost serious consideration early in the next Session of Parliament, and that it would then be desirable to grant theta all that could consistent ly be granted, and then to bar the • door against any further concession. All that could be granter ought to be granted at once. Gradual conces sions would not produce the desired effect. So much had already been given, that to give a,sorne-. thing more was indispensable. ' They had already given them the elective franchise, and admitted them to the Army, to the, Navy, and to the Bar, and he •could not discover what, danger was to be apprehended from admitting thein to highersitua tions than they were at prekLlt allowed to fill in those professions. Lord CAINIDEN was disposed to grant the; re qnired concessions, if satisfactory securities could be given. The Duke of NORTOLK thought if an oath were .framed for' the Catholics, declarimr, that no Prince, Potentate, or other Foreign,, Power, has, or ought to have any power spiritual or tempo ral within this realm, that could in any way' have a tendency to subvert the Protestant Establish,' ment, that' little more would be necessary; and. that, as had been stated' by a Noble Lord, all that was wanted by the Catholics might be com prised in a very short Act of Parliament. A Noble Lord on the cross bench (whose name we could. not learn) opposed the motion. The Earl of Morin contended that the motion had been unfairly met by the previous question. Nothing could be more distinct than that which had been stated by. his Noble, Friend,, that he onlycalled- upon their Lordships to pledge them themselves to the fair and dispassionate considera tion of this paramount question. This the- state of Ireland and of the Ernpire at large rendere,d" more than ever desirable ,The late Resolutions of the Catholics ho.thought their L7,rdships ought to lay wholly out of their consideration, in dis cussing a measure of so much importance No man would be More 'ready to oppose the Catholic claims than himself, if making the required con ___ ceoions went to endanger the Protestant Esta . blishment—but he knew of no such danger. The present motion only called for a plodge to take the subject into consideration next Session ; the previous question, if carried, could only get rid of the business for one night, and it would imme diately, come before them again. lie therefore called . upon their Lordships to make up their minds to give the pledge required ; and, conscious that the doubts andleTrirs - attached to the subject were in a great measure to beascribed*to its not having .been properly investigated,. he trusted it would be thoroughly examined in the next Ses sion., and that the result wouldibe relief to the Catholics. . . Lord. SID NI6IIT II said,.had le been of-e,:',. 'of :thos . 6 Who,. on the 31st of January, opposed the motion of another Noble Lord, on the-geounds :on which thp:*. motion was , opposed bv his.;No'hie Friend who had this day brought theklaials' of the Catholics wider . i:Orisideration, he On:Mid - have felt it inCunt bent upon hint to oppose the motion before the, Louse. -His memory did nbt serve him well, if the NOble.4arquis had not then 'opposed the mo tion on the ground that the conduct of the Ca tholics had been such as to render concession, and even'Consideration of their claims, improper; and ,observed that conciliation, would be dearly pur chased if it were gained at the expence of the dig nity Of the Crown and of Parliament. He (the Mar quis Wellesley) had, said that the Catholics bad arrayed themselves in the armour of right, and presented themselves in a, menacing attitude while , petitioning the Legislature,-and tbat,, ander:these circumstances, and on these grounds, their claims -ought not to be considered. If he (Lord Sidmouth) . had agreed - with the Noble Marquis then, how could 'he now consistently vote with him ? How did he know, when he was called upon to pledge himself to take their claims into consideration in the next S6sion of Parliametit, that within- the four or five months which must first pass, v they Would not again come .forward with their armour of right, in a menacing, attitude, and inAhe same temper as before,. : when it was thought advise- . able not to take their claims into "considera ion ? n What had bee their conduct since the ,eriocl j at which that motion was brought forward ? Their , conduct, as had been: said, and•he 'id not wish to controvert it, hadbeen within the pale of the law; but he regretted to s a y, th a t th e t emper w hi c h they had lately (and very lately too) displayed; was not such as to do.away any former unfavour able , impressions. He ptild not accede to the motion now before the House, and pledge hint, Self to the Consideration Of the . 'Subject in the next Session, consistently with the grounds and principles on which he had, resisted the motion of the Noble Earl on that day.. He was called Upon to enter into the subject fairly, and honestly -to , consider it. He could not do so. When called onto consider' the Catholic Claims, with a view to an amicable adjustment, and with a.view.to un-- limited concessibn, fairly and honestly, .he could neat do it, as he could not agree to 'take that un limited view with his limited vieW . of the' subject. If their Lordships were daerinitiecl to consider it, they ought to be determined to concede ; as, to determine. to consider was to hold out a prospect of conceding, and that to an-unlimited extent: — When. they ; were told of -four or five' millihn's_ of people, the p t of Ireland, who were -to be conciliated. by Emancipation, he would ask when he heard such exaggerations, if any man could lay his ,hand upon his heart; and say,. that be be lieved that.one-fourth of that number would be in any way improved Or affected by the measure calledfor. - This subject ought to be more clearly ' looked at. They had looked too much at its top, and too little at its.base.. . The :evils which afflict ed Ireland were those which oppressed the great mass of her population. Her situation was now . happily improving, as might be seen from the pro- gress of agriculture in that country, and from other "circumstances., Their Lordships deceived themselves if they thougletthat the discontents of Ireland grew out; of solicitude on this subject.--- Those who were most anxious in pursuit of this measure, for the accomplishment 'of Which so may Noble Lords were disposed to give their aid, drew their arguments from that state of irritation and, discontent, of which other circumstances were the cause. The emancipation which the; interests of Ireland required, was an, emancipation from ignorance and . poverty. These a benevolent Goverimient might iii time soften ; ' ly.:t it was in vain to think that this could be accomplished by any one measure, or that airy thing .but time and progressive improvethent could place' a country this circumstanced in that situation which was to be. desired. if securities, however, could be de- Nisei', and brOught forward, that would 'snfilcient ly guard the country against ,all foreign interfer ence; if this could be done, aril a proposition were laid distinctly betor him,' which would gii'e the Catholics .a full participation in the blessings of the Constitution,, without endangering the in terests of the Protestants, it would have his most hearty support. The MarqUis of HEADFORT offered a few oh servations, which could not be distinctly collected below the bar. ' The Marquis of I.4.‘msnowNE argued at some length - in support of the motion. The. Duke of CUMBERLAND shortly olerved, (asi we could hear his Royal Highness)• that he should have been happy to have supported the motion ; but having seen the Resolutions ex pressed ut a recent meeting of the e.atholi6 - k, theY appeared to be of that . nature - which should, deter . , . . liiiii• from sanctioning the proposition in c l uttstion by his vote. The Earl of LlVERPOor,,Observed that with re , spect' to the genehaproposition before the House, there were two ways in which it should be.consi- . . , dercn ; first, with referenee to its, practicablity - ,; and secondly; with tespect to its expediency. .He should conceive himself B,s acting in a- way un- Worthy ,his character, if . he.afforded support to A motion, without cleailly seeing his-way as to its leadin to a satisfactory coAchision. On• the first of these grounds he should always stand. —He Would never meet a great quest-ion by little shifts or little expedients. It should be met upon great and general priniples.— lf it could be So, he would be last man in the lionse to prevent such a . con sideration of' the question. But when taken up on great and general prin c ipl es , if h e cou ld not see .. . his wa y to a safe conclusion, lie should not be act ing justly or inanfUlly, if lie did not avow that sentiment and act . . accordingly: Were, the, ous opinions of the Catholics the only obstacle, those should make no difference whatever. If, as was said by a NOble Friend, any number . of per sons•would agree to take the Oath-of Supremacy, there could be no danger in going to that- extent. This oath included an abjuration of all foreign risdiction, spiritual as well.as temporal. He con sidered it as a fundamental principle, laid down at: the Revolution i it was laid down as an essential principle, that a Protestant Government was to be firmly established in these realms. He conceived / this to be that the powe of the State ivas to be • * Protesiiint, and for the 'euefit of ail descriptions of its subjects. The .arguments - of his Friengs were net fairly.stated by Noble tor 's ~p -poSite. poSite. It was stated only, that in the I. rese it re spective Situations of the bench Govermueat and the Court of Rome, such a state of things may arise, as would render the Papal power; so,in ,fluenced, as dangerous as ever in this country. any one political principle was more firmly esta blished than another; it was that the subjectl; of a state should owe no allegiance out Of that state. gn der these circumstances, he felt himself called onto state, that as he coupd not see his way to any -benefi , cial result from the motion of his Noble -Friend, he could not feel himself justified in acceding to it. It Was a moxitn of his political life—a maxim confirmed by all that he had ever heard, read, of observed, that with respect to a great Constitu tional question,. if a stand Were to be made, it should. be Made in limine. Therefore, as he not clearly any „pilospect of a practical conclusion frOm the present proposition, he thought the true way in point of principle, and the most manly way, was to take the stand :of resistance in the first instance.. He would even go . farther, anti state; that if he were determined to make con cession, he would still oppose the _motion, because . he was against making any -great change in the laws, without knowing what thc. change was to be. 'Before he could consent to a change, it...must-be shewn -tO him, at the tithe the measure-was proposed;,what was to be proposed in the room of that Which then existed. He believed it was comppteut- - to any Noble. Peer to lay Bill upon the table; and to shew therein what it. was proposed to repeal, and what to retain.—He agreed with hi s N o bl e F r i en d opposite, it was right to consider this great ques-; lion. as a whole, and he koped, that whatever may. ,be-done on the subject, it would be done at once ; it was impossible to formajust estimate of the, character of a measure proposed .for adoption-, Without knowing the.whole extent of what was meant to be done: The Earl of DON °UGH-NI - ORE . supported fl 6 Motion. ,Lord 11fr4H,Lealso supported the, motion, in doing which; he said, he did not consider himself as performin g an act. of inconsistency. Lord REDESDALE opposed the motion.. The Earl of PARAEY spoke 'in favour of the Resotation proposed by the -Noble Marquis. ',Lordship entered into a statement ,respecting the Catholics rmi Protestants in Ireland.- The tholics had increased considerably of late, and the Protestants had decreased. -,The Catholics for. merly consisted of:32,000 persons; of 'late they , had increased to 47,000., The Protestants at tnst were. 17,090 ; now they were only 10,000, The latter statement was confined to a particular distr;et, - The Noble Earl. observed, that lie could have fur. , nislied the House with useful information on the subject, but, the lateness of the hour prevented, him. lie. had derived great advantage respecting tke affairs of Ireland, from Mr. Wakefield's valu able work, which every person in the Country ought to read: Lord GRENVILLE - supported the question, and urged the total repe4 of all the disabilities udder which the Catholics laboured. Earl STAN fTOPE TOIC to a point of order, to Zacr,v his Noble Friends opposite h0 , .-; they might carry the question with the greatest ease--that was by clearing the House not of the Irish, but of all the Engli s h Bietops---ra lauglo.—Nothing was clearer than the power -to do it. He had found an old English Act of Parliament which gave the authority, which if _Dot put in force • against the friend s of religious liberties, stcuild be at least 'fairly employed in catching them in their own net.---There tva qn Act passed in the reign 'of Charles the Secolt!, enforced- by one of the present reign, which went to prevent. Papists from, sitting on the Ben c h of- Bishops ; or in- othq words made " Popish recusant convicts," and • he would prove it to the satisfaction of the Re verend Prelates in a minute. It enacte t, " Th front and after December,l, (which was past) , every Peer and Member of this House (meaning the Bishops); who should come advisedly into the presence of the Icing or Queen Majesty, during their reigns, or the reigns, of their successors ; • shall incur all the pains, and penalties of the act, unless such Members .(meaning the. Bishops) should te:• - ,e the neces:sary oaths in the Court of Chan cery, between the hours _of nine and ItVelve o'clock itrthe morning of the day, so'coming in to the . Royal presence," - No*, what did th e Bishop's do ? Why, instead of taking the oaths` first, they went 'immediately to Court like other COurtiers, and of course became Popish Recusants. When his Bill was 'before the House, he would (if theY Were good buys) bring it in in such a form as, should turn them clearrotit of the House, head 'and,shoulders. , The next clause in this valuable old act - • MC. LORD ,CHANCELLOR. here rose 'and said, strangers must withdraw. - • • A division then took place—. For the Motion--Contents Proxies 5l-15:5 Against the MAion-4on-onntents- 74 ' • Proxies 52-126 Majority against fhe Marquii Wellesley's .-- - . . . The House adjourned at Pour o'cloc.k this .-. ' Morning. HOUSE" OF COAMONS; WEDNESDAY. The SPEAKER, .attsnded by the House, went into the House of Peers, to hear• the Royal L sent by Commission to a number of Bills ;for which see the Lords. Sir W. Cuicrts. present e d a Petition from . the Silk Manufacturers, relative .to the East India trade, which was laid. on the table. The India Ti an s fer Mill, and the Newfoundland, Spirit Bill, we're severally read a third time, and paSsed. TOLERATION ACT. Mr, WHITBREAD postponed his notice of mo= tion on the subject of the Toleration Acts, which stood for discussion this day, till Wednesday, the Bth inst. Some conversation arose between Mr. Parnell, Mr. Pole, and Mr. M. Fitzgerald, upon the lris4 Butter Regulation Bill, after which the Bill committed. EXCISE BILL. On the third reading of the Excise Bfll,