The Sun. — London, England, 1805-04-11 00:00:00

as should not agree with him, and therefore he W determined to press the question to a division, — He moved, " That an Mumble Addres4 be presented to lii s s m ly s a s je i sz .a praying, that he would he g raciously pleased t , o leas . urc t and viscount Melville from a ll Ofhees held durun,, p fromn . fliS Majesty's Presume and Councils for ever.' And the q uestion.being put, Mr. CANNING rose. However ,desirous the Hon. Gentleman might have been of disclaiming any other motives for . tho'course he pursued than what proceeded from a wish to establish an example,he co uld not help thinking, an d h e was sure many. more were of the .same opinion, from the topics which the. Hon. Gentleman had introduced, and the time he had adopted,. that he had been situated by something more than the motives he had alledged. Good God (exclaimed the Right Hon. Gentleman) I what._ was the mea.sure of justice to be. iciliEted,.and what the measure in which it Wils then proposed to carry it into execution ? Thc Hon. Gentleman had gives. a specimen of the spirit by which he was aituated when he set out with . assertingthat what Lord Met. vine had done in obedience to the Resolutions and w i s h o f t h e H ous e, which he was himself by no means disposed to find ( a tilt with now that:it had become. the Mt of the Nouse, , W. 15 imputable to him ,as an aggravation of his guilt. The lion. Gentleman had ma d e t h a t a ft of the Noble Lord a ground of accusa• lion against him, and seemed to have considered his • deference walla authority of the House in the light • of a subterfuge to evade or disappoint justice. What would have been the feelings and theanimadversians of t h e Hon. Gentleman, what his expressions of in. di g oarion and resentment, if the House had met - this day, Lord Melville, instead of bowing to its first • decision, still continuing to hold the office of; First Lord of'the Admiralty (4 cry of Hear" Hcar!" from the CWotition lienches,,) .Would he mit have. made that Ale ground Of farther anti increased invec. tive ?—("Still a hudcry of f°llear 1") He took it fur • granted, horn the aymptoma which he observed on the other side of the House, that the Gentlemen . there assented to both these assertions. Did they mean then to say, that whatever coerse the Noble Lord had followed, it would have the en& of ten. Bering hiovadditionally culpable ?—( Hear! Hear!) It certainly appeared an, since his submission to the vote of the" House had been construed into an gravatiOn of his guilt . ; and. Gentlemen seemed to • indicate that hiS continuance in office would have been regarded in the same light ; and this was no good specimen of the fairness of 'the motive ' s upon which Gentlemen boasted of ailing, and of their impartiality in acing upon them. The lion. Gen. tleman had applied to him for information whether he had dismissed Mr. Trotter from the employment which he had held under him in the Navy Office t lie had himself the other night explained the motives which' had - induced him to omit dismissing that Gentleman ; he had thought it improper, pend. jag a Parliamentary proceeding, to prejudge the decision el that House, which, by his ail, in the dismissal of Mr. Trotter, previous to the discus. aicn of Monday, lie would have appeared -to do.— . Besides, limn the nature of the relation subiisting • between him and Mr. •Trotter, he must have been the best acquainted with his merits in the execution cif the duties of his office, and also the best judge whether he ought to be removed until an acqieseence in the decision of the House became the rule of his conduit. He was sure, that those who thought un. favourably of his motives the other night, would re. - arail their censure when they were made acquainted with the circumstance of his having lost no time in sliatnissiog • hiM, when it became a duty incumbent on him,. in obedience to the sense of Parliament. He was -lure the Hon. Gentleman . opposite (Mr. Gin. Poratotiav),. who had urged his suffering Mr. Trotter to continue in office, an accusation of his manduit, would, in the present instance,. if he pos. aessed any of the 'thataeter or spirit of a 'British „lawyer, confess that his accusation was unfair, un. ounded, tyrannical, and despotic (a loud cry of " bear ! hear 1"). With regard to Mr. Wilson, he stall continued in - the same office which he before held. The Honourable Gentleman had asked, whe. ther he too had been dismissed ? The Honourable Member, as far as he could discover, had no reason to think that Mr. - Wilson had been in any way implicated. Wilson 'had been one of those who had been reported by the Commis. sioners . as having given reluitant testimony. -- He was convinced OW no more conscientious OM. cer existed. If - the deciSion of the House should Ise declared against continuing Mr. Wilson in of fice, he should deem it his duty to obey. But he would ask, whether knowing the conscientious principles Of the man, he. was 'bound to dismiss , hitit without such decision ? With ;esprit to his having declined to ans Wei' before the Commission. ers, lest he should criminate' hiMself, this had been explained to him (Mr. CANNING), and he believ. ad to the Commissioners also. Mr. Wilson sited occasionally, in the absence of the Paymaster, for • the short period of two or three days, and used to sign drafts, in .the 1.11041 form, on the Bank, for the money wanted for the Office.- If there was any legal or moral guilt in the manner of execrating this part, of the duty of the Paymaster,. and that there • was legal guilt •in it he had no t 0.,,,b t , s i nce the l-tows had so decided, Mt. Wilson, ;so far as he had mites! in this revealor time, principa • • I pattieipteti in that legal guilt ; and on that account had declitied to itrii:Ntr. Hut that he had ever acted' with a view to private emolument, never well been supposed or charged against him.. But to ie. turn to the question ; the honourable Gentleman that night hall renewed all the unfairness which • he, had practised in the last division ; he had used every means of aggravating hiS charge, and had i zi trodum.l into the discussion many things that not keen.at all brought before the li suse.a— rte. had colletqcti every circumstance that c , 031:l tend to give alt tinfavcurable impression agiiittal the Gb. ;!:(t't of his accusittn, and had even construed the kt ,t which mis a marl:. of the N. L o rd's dela. x-:ncc to the !louse, atal of his huoilliation, into an agvavat;cm of his The Hon. Gentlenton said (hat the Motion this night was nothing more than a confirmation of the vote of the former mght. But the vote rd . time former night, as a mcf,ted, • only declared that the Noble Lord had violated the lavb ; but it did - not charge hini with hat , log dune it -for 'private emolumetst. Y tie ki.m, Gen. tleman disclaitueel any oLher *matte for his Motion this night but a view to public ju,tiee. Whv Lai been already done towards that end ? the state of humiliation to which the Noble Lord had been reduced, nothing? Was Such an end to such a political life nothing ? The Hon. Gentleman had, in adverting to the Resolutions adopted .by the House on the former night, dwelt with exultation on the virtue, that had then been displayed. Hon. Gentleman might have adverted to many in. stances of equal virtue, not only in the best 'periods of the most distinguished times of our history, but hr. might also have found a similar instance of .patriotic enndua in 1795, when two Noble Lords (Lords Grey and St. Vincent) were on their trial before the House under similar circumstances. 'These N..ble Lords had been then defended by their political enemies, and the Noble Lord, the objed of the Motion of tkis night, had fought in that anise many obstinate battles in their defence. This Noble Lord, who had acted so ge. nerously on • that ,occasion, so far from experienc ing equal generosity, was now.persecuted and hunted down, and by whom ? by the friends of Lord Grey and of Earl St. Vincent. He congratulated the. Gentlemen on. their sense, true spirit, and virtue, and prayed God Almighty to forbid that he should ever imitate their example. Mr. GRRY and Mr. G. PONSONISY rose at the same time. Mr. PONSONBY having with some difficulty given way, Mr. 9REY said, it was impossible for him on the sort of appeal made by the Him. Gentleman who spoke last, an appeal which could have no advan. tageous effed whatsoever for the persons whose che. teeters were under consideration, not to offer himself for a few moments to the House. The Honourable Gentleman congratulated him, and those about him, on what he was pleased to term more than Spartan virtues—of being insensible to the support those who • were must dear to them had formerly received from the person now under accosatien ; and the Hon. Gentleman at the same time represented that this person had, on that occasion, fought the most dif. ficult battle ever remembered in that Houses He begged the Hon. Gentleman and the House to re. coheit the circumstances of that transaftion, and on the strength of that recolleilion he disclaimed and denied the difficulty so . broadly stated. The Noble potions alluded to had, in that instance, re.: ceivcd support from those who had recommended thein to the Crown; and among the low solid glories of the last War, he hoped to be all Owed to rank the services they had performed. He hoped-to be allowed also to claim credit for their con. dun in not flying from inqUiry, in not seeking shelter in delay and sulsterluge, but boldly and , candidly appealing to the justice of the House, and desiring the stritiest investigation. Under these circumstances, he disclaimed the idea that any benefit bad been conferred on them. The defence sfforded on that occasion was but what was due in justice to the Country, and what those who had recommended the Officers whose conduit was under discussion owed to themselves. This was the sentiment of the Hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment at the time, being of opinion that the original Resolutions did not express fairly the sense that ought to be entertained of the conduit of thrise noble persons. Those noble persons had been recommended to the Crown to conduit an arduous enterprize, and they had succeeded ; they after wards-encountered difficulties, and the House was of opinion, on full Consideration of the case, that . no . blame was to be imputed to them. No benefit was therefore conferred, and if any person conceived it was a favour, that person must have a different view of tl.e case from what he had. With reaped to the merit assumed fur recommending without partiality persons of all parties for the public service of the Army and Navy, he begged the House to recoiled, that if instead of employing those meritorious Of. freers who were best qualified to serve the Country, private pique and narrow considerations were to prevail, to the exclusion of those meritorious Officers, and to the employment of others less capable of pro. moting.the national glory, the person who would atft on such a system would be guilty of a gross derelic. clan of idblie duty. The persons best qintlified lost: tain the objeds the Country looked for were in these instances, above all others, to be called upon by those at the head of affairs, without any consideration of political animosity. As to the difficulty of the battle fought in the House for the noble persons whose con. duet . was then under discussion, the Hun. Gent. was then a Member of the House, though he did not take a . part in the debate ; he might therefore havoreeol. idled that the Minority,on that occasion, amounted • on ly to sixteen, the odd sixteen of the other night. Where then was the difficulty the titan. Gentleman had represented, and the extraordinary merit and ex. crtion of the person whose conduit was now under consideration, to obtain the decision then came to. It was not agreeable to hilts to enter into these par. titulars, but ire could not sit silent under the unpros yoked and ill-judged allusion Of the Hen, Gentle. nun—ill-judged, tor the charaiter and the cause the Hun. Gentleman was supporting. Fur himself; however warmly he felt at times, no one was'gene. rally less liable to excess of warmth—it was Out in his nature ; the Hon. Gentleman did not know him ; but those who did know him, knew that he was incapable of holding permanent resentment against any map; it was impossible he could have any against the Noble Lord whose condtA was now the subjed of debate. He would bear tcs. timony for his Hon. Friend who had made the Motion, that he was as little likely to be attuated by such feelings, and the House would go with him in the understanding that the only motive was a sense of duty, which the Ilouse had santiioned. lie was of opinion that if any blame layi it was for not being sufficiently severe. Tire tion.Gentle. men sail this attack was pursued with bitterness. , Th a t i t was maintained with strength he was ready to allow ; but that there was nu rancour in pressing the Ilouse to a declaration of its just sense an delin quency so clearly established us what he main. I ,,i ne d, ant i he was sore the House would go with fl it were the general sentiment of t he House titat the present Motion should not now be pressed, lie should not be for pressing it ; but till some better reason could be oflered on the other side thv these urged by the Hon. Gentleman, ire titouglit House having ec,me to the Resolution that the Noble • Lor'd was guilty of a gross violation of the law, and culpable neglefi o f his public duty, the House would not sustain its character if such a Resolu. Lion was suffered to remain on the Journals with. Wt being fiillowed up. Nothing like argument had been blended with the appeal made to the passions of the House from the other side. His Hon. Friend had been misrepresented when he was stated to have said, that what the Hon. Gentle. man had called an ael, of humiliation and deference to the sense of the House was an aggravation of his, guilt. What His Majesty's Minister, the friend of. the Noble Lord, had stated, that the N..ible Lord had tendered his resignation, and that it had been accept ed, would;in other circumstances, be sufficient.—As to the question 'put by the 'Hon. Gentleman, what if Lord Melville hatl met the Parliament this day without having taken the step he had taken ? his answer was, that this would be matter of some ad. ditional charge against Lord Melville ; but it would be matter of greater charge against His Majesty's Ministers, that they should not have. removed him. On the former dis'cussion of this business, his Honourable Friend (Mr. •Fox), had consented to an adjournment for the day, in the express expec tation that His. Majesty's Ministers would do, their 'duty by dismissing Lord Melville,•not With: the intention ,that it should be , left matter of choice to Lord Melville. It was the sense of the House that the Noble Lord shoUld be re. moved from His Majesty's Councils for ever.— With a Resolution of this kind on • the Jour. nals of that House, he conceived it 'impossible Lord Melville could hold any situation of trust or confidence.--(Coneeiviog lone surprits to he expel:ear 4 ) , the CHANCELLOR of the EXCH NU; R at this idea.)—lf the Right Honourable Gentleman meant to intimate that there was any danger of such an event, it was• particularly fit to guard against it : but he still continued to say, that after such a Resolution there was. no danger of the Noble Lord's being appointed to any office of trust. Still, however,' the Noble Lord was a ,Member of His Majesty's Privy Council, and he ought to be so no longer. In Scotland.the offices the Noble Lord held were chiefly, for life, but he held others durinZ pleasure,' and he ought to be removed from them, if the justice of the House, or of the Country, was to be, satisfied. If Lord Melville had had an increase of his Salary as Keeper of the Privy Seal of Scotland on his coming into office of First Lord of the Admiralty, he hoped, if it was intended on his retiring from the Admiral. ty that he should retain that and all his other honours and emoluments, the good sense of the House would put a negative on that intention. Till then some better arguments were adduced than the appeal to the feelings and delicacy of the House, he should persevere in supporting the Motion.=-., He adverted to the charge so unwarrantably made Q n his. Honourable and Learned Friend behind him (Mr. PonsoNay), who was accused of con. dint inconsistent with British Law and British justice, with tyrannical and despotic principles, in pressing the punishment of this delinquency. The person whose condad was under consideration, was not, however, on trial, as the Hon. Gentleman asserted ; he had been proved guilty of a positive breach of the laic, and he still oeld offices of great trust in the money concerns of the Country. This was not prejudging the case. But even before rite matter had comae to trial, it was obvious, as iris Hon, and Learned Friend had shown, that Mr. Trotter was unfit to hold the office in which he was, under such strong imputation of tniscondu(l. He had been.called up by the personal allusion that had been made by the Hon. Gentleman; but being up, he thought it right to state thus far his reasons fur supporting the Motion; and he saw nothing in all the KM. Gentleman had uttered with so much rant and fury to induce him'io alter his opinion. The Motion was a necessary consequence of the Resolu. tion of the former night, and ought to be supported by every friend to the honour of the House, to the justice of the Country, and the charader of Ad.' ministration. Mr. PONSONRY was sure that after the very marked personal allusion the Hon. Gentleman who spoke on the other side had made in so very broad a manner to him, there was not a Member in the House who would not excuse him for'so immediately pressing himself upon its attention. He owed this to that value he had always had ftlr the good opinion of the House since he had-the honour to be a Mem ber of it ;- but that good opinion was doubly dear to him since the vote of the last night of meeting. The good opinion of an Assembly so raised, so ex. alted, so justly established in the admiration and gratitude of the Country, and so honourably entitled to the applause and approbation of the world, could not but be matter of increasing 'value to every man who could claim the happiness to enjoy any portion of it. The Hon. Gentleman said, if lie had imbibed the principles of British Law, be would not have advanced the tyrannical, despotic, and arbitrary doc. trines he had maintained., lie was extremely un fortunate if he had advanced such do6trines ; but Ile was not aware that he had. It was in his recol- - lettion that he had been followed in that deflate by an Hon. and Learned Gentleman, not less high in authority for legal knowledge than he was in legal station the Master of the Rolls) ; that Hon. and Learned Gentleman, had done him the hOnoor to no. tide some part of what had fallen from him, tend if irlaennhadal,beerl guilty of utterin g t h ose arbitrary, ty. ic and despotiesentiments which the Hon. Gentleman charged on hitn, he was bate they would not have escaped his animadversion. When the Honourable Gentleman supposed him deficient i n the principles of British Law, he conveyed an idea of distinetion of countries. He was not ashamed of his Country 1 and he trusted his Country would never have occasion to be ashamed of him. But if the Honourable Gentleman placed a value on British blood and British connexion, - he c:tulti boast that as good British blood flowed in his veins, and his British connexions were as honourable, as those of the Hon. Gentleman ; and though he could not boast of those talents which ai so early 4 period of lite rais:%l the Hon. Gentlem:in to that high station, which others could only attlio at it late period of life, by constant ;lad toitionte exertion t th oug h h e , WllO )1,13 but slowly anti gradually, and at a man t i c a;:,iir..d the mudet . ate tioo On whici t he • Stood, not boast of such talents, or itieh for. tune—it was some Consolation to him, that 'he had never before been charged with being the advoette, of arbitrary power. If his memory served !sirs right, he did not use language amounting to' witai the Hon. Gentleman charged on hi m ; bur, if h see had, was it entitled to the charatt er the Pon able Gentleman bestowed I ffe had said, lie 10 persuaded the H on ottrible Gentleman 'lst ‘ 10 '• vinced in his mind of Mr. Trotte r's lonntenee, because he was persuaded the Hun. Ganderoo would not again have cotnmived to hi t n„theorfi ce he was stated to have so abused if he ols,tiot convinced. 'Was this arbitrary sod tyransieall ° s / if he had: gone turther, and said , thaWeven Hon. Gentleman was convii.cd of Mr. Trotters innocence, he sh mid not have contiaued 'Hat .0 office, accused as he was by his own testrinonr4 that of his principal, Lord Melville ; ,that the Gentleman s hould have suspended him till the seal of the House had ileeMp runuun ced,. and the menis ° the case were proceeded upon, eve n •therohe Pfin: ceiv,ed he. should. not have argued on Joy twer' li tutional or tyrannical proloiloo, .shoultinito t have . enforced a deference due to the ilduse anti the Country by ceasing to employ a stigiustit7l. thing g ic servant till the aspersi ,n which hail cast upon his own charatter d aPa(l'e" Notwithstanding his respea fur the talents of Right Hun. Gentleman—not withstandint hisreio ness to allow him every latitude o(curornent i he evu ld that may have fallen filmy not allow him such latitude to his talent! 14 st permit ihwcutildo rfar ibiouldlem i a lG l l c fne e teenceaohnne Gentleman, t f l o tei r ichf il i eloler if e e said. t s o f h o h o o i rle n l e d d s ttulaekp honour to nolic i k ol had mad him he a• few words to the question before the-Holile";,fot and accepted; e by the th o e p P ro e'i t i l t :, il tAc l / 4 Right . Hi-J:. ;.)ppusite had, oolitic:1o' e a Lord Melville's resignation . had. 4 410 le oil bad not at the same time noti fi ed that 1 11 ; 1 ;: j iire, but the Right Honourable o° 4 l pt , be the conclusion of Lord Mayflies pclitliete The resignation was but an a t of ohedi t h f° ,:asot the sense of the House; but it it war lU s ue t t, $O. stood that this obedience wax to • conclu d e ble Lord's political career, he hail tit): Ot te ' t o tonal 'hostility to him, so little disposition ttiolitbe on his feelings, or to aggravate hif fAr.kt 1° A n a would be disposed to acquiesce. But 4 0 4 now Mattel' of conlidcration, whether, lovi n g aid ha to _First Lord of the Admiralty, he s'a i • t j oi still suffered to hold his other -ofEce 3 °f" h ll 'lsritt emolument. Hs was a Member 'of !!' c i f lc i t off Council ; and when persons had been st c g o olf , the list et that Council fur what °le i / 4 )41 01 1 est their duty dinated, an 4 will'"" 4..1 ' fig * l'elokution of the House of C° 111111 ,.. ° A n4 ,,,: a 141P `a d natural that the flouse having passcu' — to •"? o f httiuns should expet such a resl 44 t f r an ca ' would put a case : supposing the persanaloil4,4l, jn Lord uall y in credit and power in et copti• estY's Councils, and btippOlie their :representing Lord . Melville .os. individual hunted down by unjust pers, ec ti- 'roo. the Public during a vacation 51194 1 ° o f tinually impressed with the. inridee"'o, injured Nitnister, by the venal ad : v 7 u oi , eOuld be so easily mustered. in •11.1..‘1111,0,0ri4t, saw rio reason why he may not lut - t o , oo ' ,011 4 Session be restored to his formcr:siwall g r qua . Cabinet. If the Right Hun. Gentieini son to understand that this Was to be ,l l' o ,o.o', N a l s i v s , e , u i r e s , s e o f f s, t o t i s e the Noble tt Ministers yrLus thought tru:: c u r f e e ; ee h r: f .u ti r lfi l la l ajesty to employ him. now there was nothing to prevent h is , g , e , t 4o ld otlit hcf e was Lios Ar at present against the .re.employment egii. ville, or any other person in like cirecfniti.nt to the other •b • he could ° l bli e' pats o the „,, to let them merge, into oblivion.. \Vile"' money got into the hands of Agents , or j. - • pts tia t hilr which it ought not to have got' it. w . f soAcuivif,el Parliament t hsve it accounted fur the Public. lie would also adhere iltu-eril-'Ol,-.0,01. othet points, tiiat the persolL , 1" ,„ tittlin is i t i , fe, Treasury, es, presiding. ov er the wono - lt s ,,, o f !ion of the money; had been g ul 4i o no P ble negligence in overlooking their trails3* wlt° ,sennerOPl• her was not disposed t_o hrn n ttt the Right Hon. Gentleman, .or lo lightly, but it appeared in the ger.'" Ofi a t f°''`' ora ilifi ls ;; intendanae was lax ; and as a Reptele nta o„ortr) People it was his duty to c though he was not a British LAwY han e r ' . we atid, ll !4o.: Representative, nor of British birth, o f stilt claim it as a privilege due to that p ortlo b r' io d tr" oe blood that belonged to him to oonsider4tast Representative at the Peaple at large, orthew: a right to investigate the Administrati° JO ' pire in all its parts. oi he l l° . AO No. C in expldriation 1 31 ! oo d extremely understood if he ovas sail ) fee jlat Nn idea that the Resolution alrodY 01°1111 1, Or; ',NW - long 'winded, would be as effettual olch i 00 1 - as it remained on the Jou rna ls je 1114 4. 7 di , Lord from His 'Majesty's Councils as mitt I?.csalution the, Hot*: could.corbe :iseine e. T se Mr. 3. EO ANI'ON roe, in tre ciiiVoi the allusion made this night ord on a i! mo ritP,4l,. to the evidence of an eitpericnoti 3 , 11 % „, ne rtot i ot Oiii:er of the Bank before' the C orni 6l o v iland) 01 1(t vat Inquiry. 'u nit Officer (Mr. O e 0 4 . iotirrtsed that the drafts passed hY an whlG''t 11 4 had not ,al ways expressed the service " v i s iono ° I I,OI O were drawn, conformably to h P ,,, r° cailet 11 1,141 mt of Parliament. If this were 1 7 5 0)0 jt i o. were cert:stilly to blame, as he hC i p . yttla sig 1111 1 c p r a e s p s y ed ol h . r p a o ft w s •e i r ro u m nd t e h r e w y h ta i e r h i ;s e 6 . oo 4o , l sle d o we. nation of Lord Melville ; this P ,icutatl)ceist r express words, •' that he shou ld be 0 11ie sc ot o lul to specify in each and ev er y dfdtt fai t coirt. r 't i aOt which the money was citao'n* „ t o C Cr Mr. Newland, tho u g h at she head °Ac tAr ii t to papist talent of the 13.1,,k,' wd9 r i ot ic h 1/11 ',,P whose inspeCtim the delaill Of this htsrie,friirrjr,fti had was carried on, -aod therct4re matter of opiniort. The ()dicer wIP-i ti l e i t .j o , 0 .4 Y train the 1" -"fr „ s occd • ~ his c 1 that 4 , ti l e oen };is 1 C;. 7ll eaj t • Mo Lir cots research I. f , 0 1e • Ve ,