The Sun. — London, England, 1846-03-11 00:00:00

F. pollack it Isceo a p he sale /I in FOrre6 duty) IS from tb. Protect►t' from the terested . otoplsioa 400 cite , they A s Id b ou e.lo pa rtteu e ; ,resent e 1 e nesi tbe men o f d it ed wont pa i d nob ° 4 iition froo 7 lIIS LW .- of ran ,' P r i t io g ,f po w do , cl :1 1 ; L ayer of # e of . 6 d tr of drits ol Great tAb° ht P- f atitl ° ke%k; and, II er• fore, the Noble Earl sug, - . , eFtnd that they she d . ri *h eti 't o:,ce bef. re two row3i,trates. %vim would 6•cide t!,,„" 'oey uld :,o before t';' , -.etty sessions or not. By 4 eretent arneedmet tthat foe mag'lstrate e , a , , was once either discharge, or sc them for trial, without the tin p rventic n of the petty sessions. ud Ile confessed that, of 4;t similar Bills. lo e ,P , he preferred the course which had been usually I°l - few words from the Marquis of CL ANIIICAP DE, 14 4 7 ", ttEY suggested that if the Bill vas read a third Ti.:pmulti be re; ranted as it had been amended. letit to St. of St. GERMANS' said that he had proposed at lea br ing up the report on Thursday evening, when tebritenents could have been printed, and had only consented .d thip,:g it oP to-night at the strovg suggestion of their Loi th e ;,.,e.o that no time might be lost. He would take care that 1, 1 :' 11 should be printed before the third reading. tstn twitnents under consideration were then agreed to. 44: Et . r i of St. GERMANS then proposed that the Ifith itis t i,PP , 'cti th g n the “arre of " should hie esit" l , ith e addition of stment the words "under persons, suspicious en-- when. after a few words from 1.1?:: „CAMPBELL against the severity of the clause, d ue t-;OTT INGIIANI thought that there was no analoc , l. tau l er bet ween this Act and the Whiteb'Y Act. s was hZiltoore severe and oppressive, and applied a more stringent 16 t rot to offences of a less venial kind. t 'RD CHANCELLOR said that the operation of the It 4r : f il etted by the Noble Lard applied to the country 411 0% 71 bathis Act would only affect disturbed districts, and 1,,,r " e ntly ought to b: more severe I'os;4I4CA M PBELL said that the offence which was :Dy A„ e ," by this Act with transportation, was, by the White titee,;"; ,only treated as a misdemeanour, and punishes! with Aft. Imprisonment l itti t " a desultory eonversati , ,n , betwet n the Lord Chancellor, Cot tin ,Rham, the Earl of St. Germans, and the Earl of 1 11 t's tne clause was agreed to. Ilk: remaining clauses of the Bill were then agreed to ; the %111;8"mended, was ordered to be reprinted, and the report Th_iint.ended Bill to be brought up on Thursday, I,l7trbtrd reading was fixed for Friday. e' Lordships then adjourned. 1 ,44 s OUST OF COMSIOIVS, March 10. ?tAx ic R took the Chair at a fox minutes be:coe ) 1 14. ti NEW MEMBER. AIL LIE CocuitANE, who was introduced by Lord Smythe;too ' k the oaths and his seat for the Itie Tidport. d 'neriff, „ f London (Messrs. Laurie and Chaplin) ,o ki netl t ' l 'lne bar, attired in their official costurni., and pre mlof ,}llPetition from the Lord Mayor and Common Colin lr N e .'itv of I ondrin against the North Kent Railway ki tles ; 11 t8 Proposed that it be an instruction to the Com _llLS,Ottction to refer the Bristol Waterworks Bill and "le Waterworks and Sewerage Bill to the same Corn • ki h Aftre h ,, E ,ENE recommended that the two schemes should 'stee , Ore the Committee at the some time, as the Com !lrtii.°lll filet have the merits of hens , fully before them, - "Kir 'ERKELEY was of opinion that it wasa mnnorous for th e B r i s t o l W a te r w o rks Bill to be delayed in its - ita l ' in ard or to wa i t f or anot h er sc h eme which had no t a 1 4 ,, / r• an t { which had not even been read a first tiine. .°4' r'"OUCH ERE thought. it highly desirable that the tsthe znotiitn ,hould be aceed , ..d to. then' withdrew his motion, arid gave notice make another on the subject on Thursday ,Itt, t in RAILWAYS. Iljkp"' ll E moved, that in ca,e of Rills for the formation ete:,etnent of h ar b o urs, docks, pr re, raikvays, bridges, b lltai n tor all w or k s an d i nc lo s u res e n tid a l beefs within l e .°4 el lb b er g ar Y spring tide., ; and also of Bills for bridges over or 1 1 . 7 der navigable rivets, a cepy of all plans, seckons, auk s of reference, requited by the ()niers . of the ‘704., e : he depose i in . the offiee of any elet k of lv tlf l ii or sheriff's clerk, on or before the 30th "!bpat immediately preceding the session of 1 14: t . i n whieh application for the Bill shall be made, I,:kli t „ -lt ° a published map, to a scele of not less than half 0, ,• a Mlle, with the lines of such (leeks, piers, and other Ckeiti'"lended to be executed uoder the Bill, delineated N e 4% as to chew the general -itueti;in and extent of such ) 4 1 4 1 4 4 works or alterations therein, shall, on or before th e kilid s ) :', ll ,7 ttepo.ited in the Office of the Board of Admiralty. iqoa N il oreause, under the old system, whenever parties ti t ',le eti ,., ° ° bsltelct navigable rivers in any way whatever, by h„ts 0 °C • public works, the fact. seldom or never came to k;qo; l : l 'edge of the Boa:d ' of Admiralty until after the Bill 4,1 1 . 4 g the construction of sucL works had been read a ii i i l t ii'ata saiti.e.-, H AWES considered that it would be a very useful ertd - i '° their t d - g orders, and he therefore fully eon tte ' rt the standing orders, and he therefore fully con- Uts observations which had fallen from Mr. V i t. * Ch L t 4l e q a _Eti had often complained of the course adopted io 4ine m n t!nsteoner s of Woods and Forests; they never . . sent o ti llili, r '‘ u tt i l r. claus:s . until the t last moment, and parties who experienced the 41 4 4 ' ll 4 a i n n crin t coeilirvean"teennee. consequently h t 4 lie r t i a ri fevt words from Admiral DUNDAS, ,qt. °I E. said that this motion was only to carry out in :t ki Provisi ons o f t h e A c t o f l as t session. That Act gave li k e kte bl i t i e r a lt Y the power of interfering with any railway k e '• t tt , " 41 the range of the spring tides. All that he required ` notice of such interference should be given before the V I No e k i ti. It ember. "dibi e . HODGSON made a few observations which wcre i t i i rt er a l p the gallery. l i , 'lee - '''"' Words from Mr. PARKER and Mr. LaaJuctlEatt, 0, ir; , the lio n . M em b er to d e l ay hi s mo ti on f or a day or r it Or der s . hty, to allow time for inquiry, nett ..., - . 4 ,E consented to withdraw his motion till Thors tie motion was accordingly withdrawn. k id e i tptc„ THE CHARTIST CONVICTS. ilat„ 4 l of er` LCHELL presented a petition from the West ) 1 ! teo;°rkshire signed by 530 persons, praying her Ma e, wiitle;epleased to grant a free pardon to the convicts ei t laell o 'Los, and Jones. 't • a t CRAVEN BERKELEY presented a petition g al Mrnil th at 0 ar prayer, and hoped it would be done in the same vi i i tigh anit I O'Connell and others were liberated in Ireland. ) 1 4 , 1 I PROTECTION. y hed b °CF.:LYN presented a petition from Dorsetshire, 1 1 , L ," a number of farmers, agricultural labourers, and i:li t :,'. l t_ f!tvour of the Government propositions, and, ex- Nee p 'oeir belief that protective duties tended to limit our l" to the injury of the country at large. ILtiltw v THE t'HARTIST CONVICTS. '4; 4 ',,I'IOLESWORTH prented a petition from South -6t l avour (as w e understood) of the remission of the e tosa O tt Frost, Williams, and Jones. Be regretted that -"kt a' lu reti t i ti bot sepprt th pryer othe petition. 0 the o same effe a ct were presented by Mr. COBDEN li , • A INSWORTH signed by OW persona.a• M r • h A POOR-LAWS. rat `NKES wished to aek he Right Hon. Baronet the i l l ' l le t j e retary o n w h a t d a y it was the intention of the eao- ION: t o lay on th e t a bl e o f th e H o u s e the Bill relative to 'ltep e ra ,,ettt of the poor, and for the other matters relative t 4Stsit toti s ? .." n tl of the peur-laws, as embedied in the :Ministerial St , REEL-- On Monday next. THE ARMY IN INDIA. 4Tr Ii . i. 4 I, ° LIONHY said he was entry he did not. see klti, 4 ",t Henoureble Gentleman - War t %ti ork F'acte, because he had in! ended a:king him a Mto i with res p ect t o a p ar agraph which had ap kiilolietart. the United Service :iazette of the Bth instaet, 44 ,et that the ith Draeoons had been ordered for Ire tOre:!e had, however, seen ' the Right lion. Gentleman on ► .11 1 ; 19 os day, when he informed him ( Mr. Aglieniiv) I 14%,% - e t t 'as no truth in the paragraph in qiiestit.n. The VrihY l i e . refore, why he sp. `e of the subject. now, was to give N c the earliest information of the inaccuracy of the tat, Ne s EDUCATION IN WALES. ere ILLIAMB then rose. in pursuance . of f notice,... r t v o ly„ tl e re a l " 4 TI address be presented to her Majesty . or . inelei l it e c u ee into the street ot eduction in the principally c of 10tr e "h th e means afforded to the labouring elas,es that a Se e f t it mowledge tne English language. Ile said that the ltiae, e ducation in Wales was touch more neglected and t he" in any other part of the United Kingdom. Ltle e „ l 'equerice was, that there were no works produced i hhdb an addition to literature N peop.e weic t ai 'k, . 1 "eithe r had there 3 - been en any translations osE ne e is , their language, either on literature, the arts, anti h t , t ,e!at e ' e 'Pvcially in those most important to the interests of agriculture, or the useful arta. That was the i e ,l'er rl ,„'° Which they were placed, and he thought until the V i ett il- " e e n ,t should have taken measures for such an Intro le i n the English language as weeld increase tee t e ei genee and information of the contreun l ity oa k throughout the principality of Wei es, la 4' e e e - ,:' improvement was likely to take place. e te u° only asked for an inquiry in the same wa as had ), 4 '14 kp n ! e to England and Scotland. A Committee had tLlilre ei l'oloted to inquire into the system of education in Ot t i 4 nd Wales, and many valuable reports resulted from It -‘t tr i P air Y so tar as England was concerned. Now kp t tl ‘ll lO 4l this inquiry only one pat t of Wales "ed to. Why that was the ease he could itter ee The report from that district, however, gave elicit a 14 4 'llrf e nt of the destitute state of education, that he considered 4 1 4 4 o Pon her Mejesty's Government to remedy the evil. e l ' te e -e re 250,000 children in the principality of Wales, from ei he ti °° 'lf fou r t een years downwards, who ought to receive s e t th e ) and wh o were at present, in a great m..asure, with et 14 11: leans of obtainine it. He had received various letters th e subject, in one of which it was stated, that 1 - :„ 2 6,000 children a very large proportion of yelttec ° eived no education, or of so inferior a description, 1,4 e tt l; h e only called nominal. That Gentleman states, Iti O 4 e 25 5,000 children had immortal souls, and they were e ae Alth e "...lit the means of receiving a proper education. In e uydvil, and four parishes in Alotimouthshire, con 8 5,000 inhabitan s, he states, that the means for otiee°R e ducation in those arishes consisted ot forty-seven ite44, thirty-three of which were for children, and there IL‘^y , 8 ,0 9 6 who received no education whatsoever. these schools 11:d masters who were themselves . the le'tti;i' ar ant men, and, of course, were incapable of giving Oaf s 11 to those under teeir care. lie could give many 41 - of what he had stated to the House, but 4 % 11 ' d hot take up the time of the lion. Ilembers by to tett he ore than one or two of the statements N e lde e , had received in confirmation of . the . elate At Tn in that portion of her ,Majesty's dominions. ith e el 4 i,, t° the masters of those schools were . unsac- N - s'ar e e'• retail trades. Eleven masters were !miners or rid only ten had received anv educ Own welt a 1 1) 4 O f t p ueeorninr: Led for the instittetion of youth. li e tv ilie e i:, e dissenting preiehere, and such was the mode ll ei tlit e „ a t t Present the schools in Wales were governe h . th e 'lrie; Tat the inst. uction afforded to the enthiren ot . e ltt could 'ire be expected to hive mirth ta:theff ei•her in rai-ing ir habits or cotrect letl4 ( bspositiens. He foued the greatest rit , - ee - th e - ,""lir the purple to avail teetmsr-Ives of instruction, teiNse hoofs, t,i • h ch he haul contained eighty .'"er s e j";° l s, at which a lai ge riumber ef adults attenied vs it, I 'ihl e . '"ur' of the day, in order to he en:ih!,l react t he ~,t 4" nt tear, hear. ) He would re ter the klense to the 1 11 eot Trf. ilVtll4. making his staeetrient 24 VI Roe fll t rl r i t .t st i!utitm m o a f the I . )eoile. sr'stil e, t tie men o and in the mile got from 2e,. 6,, a tit, • to 2A "e miner, an d colliers ,;o' '?l<. to 255. ; the au . tis.un te 11,1 1 t I st ''• ; and t h e commonest lebourer I`2s.s. N 18s. NO c, k‘ 1 / I t, mental condition of that population, so ph) 11 10 ' tr. Trentaherne said scarcely one instaisee exieed ti te '• Teen earnieg 5./s. a week of any savings leeng ^pli4o si rs that these men, ireln , trous to the last degree. tkt t rl ''"ule of mental meats enjoymeet that they ‘,. 14 Ihk3:7,sort to the public house, and there they , p-nt. their titl e '444 - "tight be asked,what ryes the cause of all tn:s keit; try eep:tiee; Znee towards this eeople ? He could not answer the l'eti e l tv e e , tt e it appeared to him more than extraoudeisry to ktler ° sse°" indifference practised towards a miss of !lre;,Ohysi,'" ° eeded so much moral, mental, and, he weul t titt l e ""proye ment. li e very much feared that some a il Pre e r' g ° f itid.fferenee prevailed amongst. the gentry arid e e , o w _ rrlete ee , - ,etl ee _o k r , of the country ; and though there were, to ;', ll 4 — ",en ; 4 ""edge, many most exeellent and worthy see ee Cf ni mgst them, yet he should adhere to set 4"ill e e a' " r l - einally stat - ed. , He had no doubt if litstrie"tleautreprietori were compelled, as were the gentry tt ' a, tber„ '"°"e period, to form schools in the vinous e ("Way would be tenfold repaid them, not t• translate the laws into their language, but they request you to send the English schoolmaster among them that they may be enabled to understand the laws, and be guided rightly by them. Why, in the most despotic States, Russia, Austria, Prussia, and other nations, there existed a more efficacious and general system of education than in this empire. Look at our neighbours, the French people. They commenced in 1830 under their present enlightened sovereign, and have continued pro g ressively until the present period to establish an unequaled system of edUcation. This year they have voted upwards of 700,0001. for the purpose of education among the people, while we have voted only 75,000/. for the same purpose. If the schoolmaster had been sent into every part of \Vales there would not have been found any complaint of not understanding the administration of the laws, and the Welsh people would not have been placed in the disgraceful position d , scribed by the Bishop of St. David's, that they were destitute alike in religious instruction and in moral knowledge. Mr. MORRIS was cf opinion that it was highly desirable that the English language should be more generally known in Wales, especially as there was now every prospect of the two countries becoming more intimately connected from their mutual intercourse being increased. The only grant in Wales f r educational purposes consisted of the paltry sum of 4001. to the college of St David's. When he considered .the large amounts which hail been given for a similar purpose to their neighbours, he did think th Welsh people were entitled to a larger participation in the benefits which education would confer. Sir J. GRAHAM did not intend to trespass on the attention of the Howie at any length, nor was he dispossed to object to the general principle as stated by the lion. Member. He en tirely agreed in the sentiment that the establishment of the national system in Ireland Lad been a most happy circumstance. It was true that the Scotch owed the high position they held to their education, and he considered that it would tend greatly to further the administration ofjustice in Wales if a more ex tended knowledgeof the English language was introduced there. He did not consider that the Hon. Gentleman had done jus tice to the efforts of Government to promote education among the Welsh. After the year 1839, the Government felt it their duty to direct their special attention to the moral condition of the people in that district, and it had been their earnest endea vour ever since to secure, especially to the working classes, those benefits which it was admitted would arise from an extended education. A national system of education had been established in England, Ireland, and Scotland, and he would to God that it, could also be extended to Wales. Bus he would not despair. That House would accomplish such a wished-for event. He did consider, however, that a sectarian or separate education was far preferable to having none at all. In the very district alluded to by the Honourable Member, after the report of the Com mittee of Council had been received, there had been established no less than eighty-five schools, and a sum of 10,000!. had been ;ranted for the put poses of education. What he would propose would be that a Committee of the House should send forth two inspectors to inquire into the best means of instruction in the English language, and that they shoeld report to the House without delay ; the House could then pursue what course it night deem most proper. For his part he was sin mincerely impressed with tl e conviction of the vast importance of the subject introduced ; he was therefore most anxious that some meats could be adopted for carrying out the prmiosed object. He could r ish hat the education should nut be merely secular. He could not sever the secular from the religious. The difficulty was to recencile the two. It was a difficulty which he felt, but be would not despair, even to the latest moment of life, that the Government should obsoletely fail in the accomplishment of such an object. If, therefore. the Hon, Member would with draw his motien he woulit pledge himself that the Government ihould immediately send an inspector to report upon the best means of rife-tires the proposed object, and his report should be without delay placed upon the table of the House. Mr. WILLIAMS would at onee consent to the prop sal of he Right Hen. Baronet, but he would remind him that while 185,0001. were granted for the purposes of education in England and Wales, only 2,676/. reached the district he repro -stilted, though it contained neatly half a million of souls. Staffordshire, with something about the same popu lation, received 14,0';')/. Mr. WYNN considered he would not be doing justice to the landed proprietors in Wales if he did not bear his testimony to their exertions in extending education to the residents upon hear property. In North \Vales lie could state, from his own knowledge, that there was not a parish without two or three schools. The exertions of the clergy of the. Established Church was beyond all praise, anal they wsre, it was gratifying to state, efficiently seconded by the Weslyans. Baptists, and Dissenters. In some parishes the schools were united, and he .lid not know of one in which there was any host lity mani fested against particular religious opinions. Mr. WYSE , : rose and said that he was rejoiced to find that there was such a desire for education in Wales, and equally rejoiced that the Government were anxious to second that de sire. He had experience in his own country of the advan tages of education in the improved habits of the people. In former periods that anxiety was not so much felt, but now the benefits of education were bee -ming known to the people, and although the advantages of improved education were not ully developed, in about tin years they would see that Ireland was not inferior, but that she was superior, to any other ceun ry in education. The full benefits were not yet to be seen ; eta in a short time it would appear in the improved habits if the people—in their greater regard for pro ierty, in their greater respect for truth, and in their improved habits of industry, morality, and peace. He remembered when the question of education was first urged 'n that House, in the year 1831, that it was then a question whether education was a benefit or an evil to the people. It would he a great anomaly and disgraceful to the country, when every other portion of Europe had recognised the prin cirle, and the necessity of giving an education to the people on a sound system of morality, that the subject should not meet with the warmest support from her Majesty's Ministers. In the discussion which formerly took place, it was admitted that a necessity existed to promote education by most of the Members of the House. Though he did not lay it down as a fixed or general rule that there should be a mjxed education in every country, still he thought that the right to make conces sions for the purposes of mutual conciliations ought to induce all parties to come to an arrangement on that point, where divided interest and divided religion created such opposite feeling between the Catholic and the Protestant, and he for one hoped that there would be a school in every district equal to its population. The State made It imperative that every man should be informed, because it made it imperative that every one should know the law ; and without education it was hard for them to know the law, and thereby avoid commit ting crime. It was incumbent on every Government to ad vance education, an' he could perceive that the feeling of the sountry was gradually advancing towards a greater spirit of conciliation. The motion was then withdrawn. THE CHARTIST CONVICTS. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE rose to present a petition, signed by 822 respectable tradesmen, artisans, and householders, praying fur the liberation of the convicts Frost, Williams, and Jones. Sir G. STRICKLAND presented a similar petition; and also one signed by the merchants, shopkeepers, hand-loom weavers, cordwainers, and spinners of Preston. Mr. FIELDING presented a petition with a similar prayer. Mr. T. DUNCONIf3E again rose, and presented 249 peti tions, very numerously sleeted, praying for the relit& e of the Chartist convicts. It' would be, the Hon. Gentleman said, .00 tedious to enumerate them all, but he would read the names of a few of the principal petitions, namely, one from Exeter, from Bath, from Dundee, from Glasgow, tram Newport. from Bridgewater, Granby, Monmouthshire, from the town of Leesls—altogether 249 petitions ; and he might safely say that they represented the feelings of 3.600,000 of their fellow-subjects. He begged to call the attention of the House to one petition in particular, which was signed by 633 of the inhabitants of Abergavenoy, as among the names were thesix of er jurymen triedthat Frost, i Williams, h and Jones. The so the only six of the juryme n that he saw ; and that the y cheer pwryhm who subscribe who d cheer fully signed the petition. Three mere of the jurymen were dead, and two he could not find, anti the remaining juryman could not write. They did not attempt to jesti'y in their petition the conduct of those men—but they say, looking to the state of the country at the time, and looking to the examples before them, they were humbly of oeinion, that the :l,hartist convicts should be liberated like other individuals , If he could receive the slightest intimation that those petitions would undergo a favourable attention--the attention which they demanded on the part of the Government—he would not say one wont, but leave the question of those petitions to the Government ; feeling that due justice would be done consist• ent with the sound policy which such a decision required. If the Government could give him any assurance on that point, he would willingly desist from the task of bringing the case before the House. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that if the Hon. Member would send in his statement, he would let him know his feelings on the subject. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said, that it was sometimes most in cumbent that the House of Commons should inquire into the alleged grievances of petitioners. There were some cases where the House ought to interfere, and there were peculiar circum stances which justified Members for interfering, and he be lieved the present was one of that kind, and he thought the House was bound to do so from the manner in which those men were tried. In the first place, he thought that every means had been taken to induce the Government to extend the mercy of the Crown to those misguided persons. Last year memorials without end passed through his hands to the Right Honourable Baronet for the purpose of being laid at the foot of the throne. The Government did not then feel themselves justified in at:- ceding to the prayer of the petitioners. He would fearlessly state that Government would be justified, looking at the offence for which the parties were tried and convicted, and the circumstances under which that conviction took place, in at once granting a free pardon, which would redound to their credit and their sense of mercy in using the prerogative of the Crown. He thought that there was a very general expression of public feeling on the subject, and that it was in fact universal throughout the country with reference to these men. He would now ask, what was the reason of that widely-extended sympathy He believed that it arose from two causes : it arose front a doubt that existed in the minds of four-fifths of the population of the country; that the conviction had against those men was not altogether fair. That there was great doubt respect ing their conviction was universally admitted ; and that doubt was not alone felt amongst the people, but even amongst the lawyers themselves. Of the fifteen judges to whom the point raised was referred, six were of opinion it was not good, while nine decided otherwise, if the objection had been taken in time. He had not the slightest fault to find with the man ner in which the trial was conducted; and he did not intro duce the subject with any party feeling, and hoped that such would not be entertained during this discussion. The peti tions which he had presented were generally signed by all parties and all classes, and many signed them from humane and charitable motives. He had also to say that the officers of the Crown on that occasion performed their duty in a manner which did honour to themselves and to the profession to which they belonged. He also admitted that the prisoners were most ably defended by the Right Hon. gentleman op posite, and by the Ceief Baron on that occasion. It was well known that a point was reserved at the trial, and was referred to the fifteen Judges, who had d.ffered on that point. Ile might as well state what the point was which was reserved, although he did not think that the Hon. Gen tleman present would require to know it, for the purpose of making a defence against similar charges.— (Laughter.) It was this, that, according to the strict letter of the law, when any person is indicted for high treason, it is necessary that a list should be given of the witnesses at, the particular period when copies of the indictment shall be dela. vered to the parties indicted. Now, he believes.' he was right in saying that copies of the indictment were not furnished at the same time when the indictment was received. The copy of the indictment was furnished on Thursday, and of the list on Tuesday. No lawyer hail any doubt on the subject but that both must be delivered at one anti the same time. T oe pehrt was reserved, and six of the judges decided that tare (A:jet:time wis fatal to the trials, and nine decided that it was good anti valid, but that it was not made in time. There were nine positively deciding that the objection was valid. What was the opinion of the Chief Baron on that ncession ? His conduct was creditable to his heart, and his opinion was equally so to his understanding. Suppose the case were to come b ?fore the Chief Baron at the present time, he, of course, would be of the same opinion as when he was Sir Frederick Pollock, and the opinion of the Judges would be as seven to seven. Were the trial to have taken place at the Queen's Bench the prisoner must have been acquitted. Why, what said the Judges?—that if the objection had been taken in time, it would have been good, and must have ended in the libera tion of the unhappy men. Lord Brougham, in his place in the House of Lords, arid, that if the objection had been taken in time it must have been held good, and that nothing could have Prevented their being liberated. So strongly was the Noble alone by the improved habits, and superior manners of the peopie, but also • by the superior style of cultivation which they then would be certain to practice. He should state that there existed the most intense desire amongst the people of Wales to possess the means of acquiring a knowledge of the English language. In support of this he begged to refer to the report cf her Majesty's Commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of the principality of Wales. The Hon. Member then read an extract from the reports of the Committee appointed to enquire into the state of educa tion in North and South Wales, which set forth that the want of a knowledge of the English language by the inhabitants of the principality was a great drawback to their improvement, as it prevented the proper working of the laws, th administra tion of justice, and threw great difficulties in the way of the exez tennis of the Church of England and its members. There were but few churches, and so low was the state of morals as to almost cripple individual exertions, the consequence waa that many farmers and their families were almost beyond the retch of improvement. They also attributed the recent political excitement to the ignorance amongst the people. The report was signed by gentlemen of great influence, whose authority was sufficient to induce the House and the Government to give the subject the earliest and fsllest consideration. If he could induce her Majesty's Government and that House to confer upon the people of this country the benefits of a sound education, the beneficial results would be beyond calculation. He would now call the attention of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State to the statements made by the gentlemen he had named. They said that the want of the knowledge of the English language, arising from a want of proper education presented the most serious obstacles to the administration of justice. It were impossible for him to furnish evidence more striking of the consequences of the went of education than those statements appeared to be. If the House wished, he could multiply such statements a hundred fold ; but he would just confine himself to two or three per sons who were well known to that House, and to the country, and who he was sure would receive that attention they deserved. He would beg leave to quote the opinion of a gentleman, who was in an especial manner worthy of their attention. He meant the gentleman who was sent by the Times newspaper to Wales to inquire into the dis turbances which prevailed there some few years ago. He was in that country for a considerable period of time ; he was a gentleman of high education, a barrister, and one who was peculiarly qualified for investigating into the condition of the people. He was the same gentleman who was lately sent to Ireland under the name of the Times' Commissioner. i and who had sent to this country those very able reports which had appeared in the Times. He meant Mr. Forster. The Hen, Member went on to read an extract from the reports which had appeared in the Times netv,pap..r a few years ago with respect to the disturb ances in Wales. That gentleman stated, that after a long sojourn in that country, he had found that the state of the education of the people was lamentably deficient, which was the main cause of the disturbances which had broken out, and that they were, in fact, cotopletely destitute of that which led to improvement and civilisation—complete and sound educetion. Ile also stated that there could be no ea ten:iv°, sound, and feasible plan of education, unless it went based upon the principle of making the English lan guage the only means of commuoication.—( Hear, hear. ) Tee useful sciences, and indeed the whole principle of ad vancement depended upon, the cultivation of the English lan guage. The Welsh people were well aware of this circum stance, and were exceedingly anxious to obtain the means of teaching heir children English. This, he was convinced, was the only means which opened the road to promotion. He there fore ilemeht that, this was t tie only wsy to increase the pros perity o f ihe country, and to resider the people permanently haply:. He would . now add to the testimony of this gentleman, other evidence if f great importance. It was the testimony of a gentleman, distinguished alike from his high position, and nor the extent of his attainments as a scholar, and his char rower its a man. He alluded to one high in the estimation of the Bench of Bishops. He meant the Bishop of St. David s In one of his late charges that learned functionary had stated, for the instruction of his clergy, that it was a remarkable cir cumstance, which had come to his knowledge, that several en the children of the Welsh in the rural districts, from their knowledge of the English language, had been the main means of instructing their parents in the principles of morality and relienoil. He thought, thiwetere, that the utmost efforts should be made to extend the knowledge of the English lan guage throughout the whole of the Principality, for h.. believed it depended greatly upon this means of communica tion being extenaed, is hether the Welsh community advancers or retrograded in religious knowledge. Now he (Mr. Williams I thouelet that no better testimony could be given than this for the promotion of the English language. All these circum stances combined to convince him, and to - show that the only means of promoting extensive usefulness was the one which the Learned Prelate had pointed out ; and he trusted that the same feeliog, which had been exhibi ed in these reports would find a response within the walls of the House, and that it would be carried out to the remotest parts of the Unite Kingdom. The Hon. Member then proceeded to read another statement, and he would state, as an apology for trespassing so long on the patience of this House, that it was the first time that this House had been called upon to consider the education in Wales. The statement to which the Hon. Member referrer , was written by a proprietor arid editor of one of the leadine journals in Wales, and who was intimately acquainted with the condition of the people of that country, and who had written - . many articles in favour of establishing a better system of edu cation in that country. He had stated, when referring to the late " Reb ecca " disturbances, that such a violation of the law betokened the general state of uneasiness and disaffection it. the country, and proceeded to say that if the people had beer , acquainted with the English language, and had had a proper education, instead of being, as they then were, a prey to designing hypocrites, with religion on their lips and wickedness at their 'hearts, they would be, from their geographical position, anti their great natural advantages, the best, the happiest, the most peaceful, and the most prosperous people on the face of the earth. He (Mr. Williams) considered these remarks as a strong evidence in favour of extending an improved system of education to that country. The present state of education ii Wales was well known, and when he saw these proofs of the existing state of ignorance, he was compelled to ask himself. what could these people he doing to allow themselves to re main in such a state? A great portion of the people of the worth of Scotland and the north of Ireland, were in the same condition as the people of Wales. What would be the conse quence of an improved system of education? What had Scot land done for herself? An Act was passed in 1833, for esta blishing schools in Scotland. A tax was imposed upon the landowners to defray the expenses attending these schools, and how well had they been repaid fir their outlay. The prosperity of that country was principally owing to the improved system of education which had been so successfully introduced. There were in that country an average of three schools to each parish. But not content with having done all that for the instruction of the eeople, they hail also app anted a Committee to inquire and retort to the Council on Eduea'ion as to the working of the system. Every means were taken to give effect to aloe schools that the Gov-rnment venal possibly adopt. Althouea he had eleass been an advocate for curtailing public experii• tune, yet he never on any occasion ceased to advocate the out lay of public money for the purpose of education in any part of the United Kingdom. Now, as he said before, the cones qui nee of the system of education in Scotland had made the people of that country the most intelligent of any people in Europe. Let them talk to whom they w.,ulcl, they would hear it seated how intelligent arid how indu,trioue were the Scotch What had they dine for Ireland? They had done for Indeed what, refleeted the highest credit on the Government. They had done that which, in his opinion, would re metre, many of the evils and the crimes which existed there, because they were of a social character aiie would be removed by education,. He would just relate to the House what had been done for Ireland. So early as the reign- of Henry VIII. en Act of the English Parliament was passed to establish schools in every parish in Ireland. Subsequent Acts were passed in the reigns of Elizabeth, George 1., George 11., and George 111., hut the system of education provided by those Acts being of a sectarian nature were con s, There ly uestiecessful : but in 1816 the Crown appointed a C remission to inquire into the Nods and revenues granted lis, public bodice for the purpose of education, and also i nto th e state of public schools in Ireland. Subsequent Commis-ions were issued, arid their reports weie submitted to a Committee of that House, and in the year 1631 a roost extendei' system of education was founded on the report of that Committee, a system which has already produced the most beneficial results. Schools were immediately put into operation, anti the result was that in the year 1841 nearly half a million of poor Irish children were receiving the blessings of education ; and he had no doubt that in 1846 the amount was doubled. The Government established normal schools, which were attended by two professors, who gave lec tures on the art of teaching and conducting schools, in the English language, and in geography ; and there were now ex periments carried out which would unite the instruction of agriculture. Last year there was voted, for the building of three colleges in Ireland, the sum of 100,0001., and a further , sum of 21,000/. for endowment, and 26,0001. for the repairs of the College of iilaynooth. It might be said that the clergy of Wales ought to provide for the education of the people. They were too poor to do so. In ten parishes in Carmarthenshire the tithes were 5,9351., and out of that 2,226/. went into the pockets of the proprietors, thus leaving only 7001. - for the clergy of those parishes.—(Hear.) He had seen a report of a meeting of clergymen in January last, fur the purpose of education in Wales, in which they la mented that nu feeling had been manifested by the laity for that object, and that all the money that had been subscribed had been obtained from the clergy. He hoped that the House would not throw any difficulty in the way of his proposed in qu ry. He did not wash the House to beiieve his single state ment. The most irrefragable testimony shall be furnished of the destitute state of the Welsh people with respect to educa tion, and of their strong desire to be properly instructed. If the landed proprietors were compelled to establish schools on their several estates, he (Mr. Williams) had no doubt that in a little time they would be amply repaid for their trouble anri original outlay of expense. He had never conversed with any intelligent Welshman who did not bear testimony to the uni versal dearth of education among his fellow-countrymen There existed no portion of this empire which was more at• tached to the institutions and habits of the English than the Welsh people. It would excite the deepest sympathy and commiseration in that House, if he were to relate some of the circumstances that had occurred in Wales with respect to the administration of justice in that country. All the proceedings in the courts of law were conducted in the English language, which was a language that. the people, to a very great extent, were unacquainted with. Thejudge charged the jury in English—the counsel addressed them in the same language—and the most farcical and some times melancholy occurrences frequently happened in conse• h W ac t i lli v a e n - n ry s ) fr ira g d ne h l e a a wy rd k f n ro o m wn or t i h e c o i f .u t r l y ic g l i o ve ce a l g ro u i e :i ' s 'e tt:atc H s t e n ( at li h r e . veriti -t in direct opeosition its the evidence of the witnesses and the do-seri:in of the judge. When the jury were asked why it was that they bad given so strange a verdict, the reply was in varialily that they did net seffienently understand the English language to know exactly what was going forward, and there , age tbey considered it woul, be advise:ale to give the prisoner the benefit of their igoo , -anse, and acquit him. A case had lispormed of a nein convicted of a crime for whichs n heg te s w e a n ss n e e r e i : t eo e, dto be }ranged. While the jedge was p,isi sa e p iserier looked round and iequired what the judge was say ing.. Worn informed that sentence of death was being passed, ill, prieiner seemed aslouished, and immediately declared that ties w.tnesses had sworn falsely against him, which, after a fuether investigation, was discovered to be the fact. Ile (;Mr. Williams) would trouble the House With One 111070 circumstance. A person surrendered to Like his trill for a feloeieter assault. On the jury being empanneled, it was notified ter the Court teat eleven of them did net under • ,teriri English, up in which the judge ebssrveil that the twelfth juryman could explain the case to his brethren, and the trial prec=eded. 'flue counsel on both sides addressed the jury, and the judge summed up, - aeil the result was that a verdict was returned against the prisoner, who was sentenced to be itn - prisoned for 4 months with hard labour. The next morning e'even of the jury said they were of opinion that the man was not guilty, and actually signed a memorial to that effect to ice presented to the Secretary of State. He (Mr. Williams) had not yet heard whether or not the man was discharged from cus tody. if there existed in this country any institution of which they were more proud than any other, it was in the adminis tration of justice; but here was a case which could not be paralleled in the proceedings of any other country. He did I not wish to bring any charge against her Majesty's Govern ment. He was only saying that great neglect towards the Welsh people had been allowed to take place, which he trusted would in a shut time be rectified. The people do not ail you and 'Learned Lord of that opinion, that .he noteouly., used , midnight. On their arrival in the town they were to all his great and powerful legal arguments in the House of Aisne takert possession of it and the bridge, and by a precon Lord, but he also tried all -- in his power to- get certed signal it had been agreed upon that the nail should be these men released. The House would recollect the feeling in stopped, and its non-arrival was to have been the signal at the public mind at the time the men were under the rentence Birmingham and the northern districts that they had posses of execution. There was a peti t ion signed by about four sion of the town, and a general rising of the people was to millions in favour of a free pardon. It was not to be denied follow.—( Hear.) Now, what were the facts proved ? At the that the intention of the Government was to have the prisoners trial, she Crown was represented by the present Lord Campbell, executed—the seaffal, it was well known, had been prepared, who was then Attorney-General, and by the Solicitor-General, and the executioner was ordered down, and he was there in the present Member for 'Worcester. Chief Justice Tindal, a perfect readiness to exercise his calli ng . What was it that pre- most able, distinguished, and humane Judge, charged the jury vented their execution? it was well known that but for the upon that occasion, and in that charge he characterised the f ee ling cf the people of this country they would most undoubt- offence as one of high treason. During the trial the prisoners edly have been executed. So intent were her Majesty's had atl the advantages of having for their defence most able en e i s ters upon carrying out the sentence, that Sir Frederick and learned counsel ; that defence stood unrivalled for legal Pollock had waited six times upon the Secretary of State for ingenuity, and every source of legal eloquence and law was the Home Department, and the result was that he could not he exhausted in their - favour. The jury weighed well all the said hold out the slightest hopes for a remission of the sen- evidence with the greatest care and deliberation, and the result terms., inasmuch as he could not make the slightest impression of that deliberate , care was a verdict of guilty. Here the upon them. After the sixth interview of the Learned Gentle- Right Hon. Gentleman read an extract from the sentence of man with the Government, he waited upon Lord Brougham the Learned Judge, which was to the effect that the offence of and said to him, " I can make no impression on these men, and high treason had been clearly proved against the prisoners, and I am fearful they will be sacrificed." The Noble and Learned sentence of death was passed upon them. He (Sir James Lord said to him, " Go again and say to them, that if they , Graham) then continued to say, that a difference of opinion carry out the extreme penalty of the sentence, they will be having, however, arisen with regard to the strict legality of acting most illegally and unconstitutionally, and the men will be , the sentence, in consequence of the point raised, her Majesty vilely murdered, if executed, for it is against all law." It was was recommended to commute the sentence to transportation. even said at the time, th t the men ought not even to Now, let him ask the House to consider whether that sentence be transported, for they had been convicted against the law of ; was one which ought to be remitted. He did not wish to aggra the case, and it would be a transportation most illegally. After vale the case, but let him remind the House, that in .conse the sentence had been comn uted to transportation. fresh quence of Frost having been considered a person possessed of interest was made by the public to prevent that punishment great influence in that part of the country, he had confided to being carried out. The Government said then that if the him her Majesty's commission for the preservation of the peace, prisoners should conduct themselves well while abroad, after a i and that confiOencehe had abused in the manner already known few years, there might possibly be a chance for their having a to the House, and therefore, in considering the justice of his free pardon. The unfortunate men were sent out to New sentence, he could not overlook this gross breach of confidence. South Wales, and they were for two or three years kept work- —(Hear, hear.) Nor, could he stop here, for he should call ing in chain-gangs. It was well known that in this country the attention of the House to the providential circum nothing like an amnesty took place upon any great public re- stance that the night upon which this descent was to have joicing. Did they treat prisoners so in France ? England was been made upon Newport was dark and tempestuous, the only place where, at the times of great public rejoicing, and this, he thought, showed the special intervention of Divine there were no pardons granted. On the birth of the Prince Providence, for it prevented those pople from entering the of Wales there were to be sure some pardons, but not to pc,- town before day-break.—(Hear.) When the columns of men litical prisoners. Look at France on the occasion of the ex- arrived in the town, one of those columns was ordered up to a ploies of the Prince de Joinville, there was a partial amnesty certain point by Frost, who, let him (Sir J. Graham) remark, in that country, and political as well as other prisoners were was not to be found at the head of that column, but he was released. All of those political prisoners were Bonapartist!. found in a hiding-place. How much of the sentence of those They were some of those who attempted, with Prince Louis prisoners had already been enforced ? Only five years. Now, Napoleon, the carrying out of a mad attempt to upset the according to all the ordinary rules of such cases, it was not present dynasty of that. country. That Prince was not to be usual to commute such a sentence until after the expiration of sure released, but he hoped that he soon would be, as well as at least ten years ; hut in the present case, considering the other political prisoners. The pardon of Frost, Williams, and circumstances under which the punishment had been inflicted, Jones would be in aceordance with the feelings of the people he certainly could not recommend to her Majesty that it should of this country. He knew there was great alarm abroad in be commuted. He was far from not sympathising with per some minds on this subject. He regretted much two letters sons condemned to punishment, but in this case he should say, which had been written by the Hon. Member for Edinburgh that all his sympathies were enlisted on the side of the widows to his constituents, wherein he assailed those unfortunate men, and orphans that had been made by the conduct of Frost.— by calling them great criminals. He (Mr. Duncombe) (Cries of " Hear, hear.") He did think that this sentence did not deny that they were great cr iminals, but should be allowed to take its full course, in order to show to the Honourable Member for Edinburgh, in these others, who, though bold in counsel, were not so in action, or letters had stated that they had not been sufficiently punished. foremost in the ranks they urged on, that when the He s tated to his constituents that the petitioners for the pardon law reached them they would be sure to receive puniehrrient.— of Frost, Williams, aid Jones, were men w h o wan ted to cause a ( Hear, hest.) Far be it from him to say that mercy ought great revolution in the country. Now, with respect to the pri- not, in certain cases, to be exercised, but under the present cer soners, he ( Mr. T. Duncombe) believed that their object was cumstances he comd not recommend her Majesty to remit the to cause a great moral demonstration when they assembled at sentence.—( Hear, hear. ) Newport. But men with arms in their hands it. was imps- Mr. MACAULAY, whose opening observations were not sible for Frost and his fellow prisoners to restrain. lie felt that audible in the gallery, was understood to say that there existed the Hon. Member for Edinburgh had acted most unjustly to- no connexion whatever between the letters produhed, as some wards those men in his letter, and that he most unjustly cha- Hon. Members were disposed to think, as the letters had been recterised the intentions of a large mass of persons signing the written at different periods ; and though published, he doubted petition which he (Mr. Duncombe) had presented to that if they could in any way influence or prejudice the ease then House. The Right Hon. Member said that the national peti- before the House. With respect to the first of these tien was signed by men whose sole object was to create a na- letters, of 1842, he thought it would be very much out of place tional bankruptcy, and that to give them their claims would be were he then to go over the grounds which he did on the for the same as to put a rimer into the hands of a marl who said he mer occasion; but he could not refrain from saying that these wished to cut his own throat. ( Here the Hon, Member read letters contained not a single observation or word by which the letters alluded to.) He felt that the Ri g ht H on . Gentle- he was not then fully prepared to abide.—(Hear, hear.) man had most unfairly used his (Mr. D oncom o e ' s ) name in However, he would not suffer himself to be turned away from these letters; and with respect to placing a razor in the hands of a the line of discussion, but would merely ask Hon. Gentlemen, man who wished to cut his own throat, he (M r . Do w ished he and simply request each of them who entertained a doubt on had been near the Right Hon. Member', h an d at the time he the statement, to fully enter with him on the consideration of was about to write those letters, for he would most certainly the matter.--( Hear, hear.) Now, setting aside the have refused him the pen.— (Laughter. ) Th e H on , Member question of the lett rs by which, he repeated, he was pre. having read the petition, said he did not think that that docu- pared to stand, he should declare that he had a preliminary ment deserved the name that had been appli e d to it by the objection to the motion of the Hon. Gentleman, Mr. Dun- Right lion. Gentleman. It complained of a monopoly of the combo. He had a strong objection to any interference by suffrage—a monopoly of religion.—(Laughter.) Was there that House with the exclusive prerogative of the Crown. No not a monopoly of religion? If his Honourable Friend, the doubt the House had a right to advise her Majesty, through Member for Birmingham, was present, he would say there was her Ministers, as regarded the exercise of that prerogative ; a monopoly in that. He much regretted the absence of his but certainly discretion should impose a restraint in such Hon. Friend Captain Rous, fur he had promised to vete for the cases that they should not overlook or disregard. He ad release of those prisoners, and he had written a letter to that mitted that there were some prerogatives veste in the Crown, effect, in answer to an application meat numerously and re- in the exercise of which Ministers would be much to blame spectably signed by the people of Westminster. lie (Mr. if they did not seek the advice of that House—such as Duncombe) would read that letter. It was as follows :—" It matters connected with the command of the army, and other will give me great pleasure to vote for the release of Frost, important branches, in regard to which the House should be Williams, and Jones, and I am sure that they are more likely most chary. It was through no superstitious feeling for the to receive a pardon from Sir R. keel's Government than birth of a Prince of Wales that the royal prerogative was from any other Ministry." He (the Hon. Member for Fins- prayed to be exercised; but the reason was obvious, for it bury) was of that opinion also. He was sure that they would have never was exercised save at the advice and by the recommends a greater chance of pardon through the instrumentality of the tion of these with whom the responsibility of the safety of the Right lion. Baronet than through any other Minister. He community rested.—( Hear, hear.) It was a solemn and was sure that Sir F. Pollock's conduct towards these men was awful duty to be charged with the trust of the public peace ; above all praise, and so certain was he at the time that the to preserve peace and order to society and property, and at prisoners were under the sentence of death, that that sentence the same time to do so with the smallest infliction of suffering would be carried into execution, that he went and took leave compatible with the attainment of the great end and object.— of them in their prison.—( Hear, hear.) It had been ( Hear, hear.) Now, his view of the question was this—he said that it was never the intention of the Go- conceived that the prerogative of mercy was less likely to be tenement of that day that those men should be abused when exerted in conformity with the advice of those hanged, but if that had been the case would that Hon. and whose high and impOrtant duty it was to watch over the public Learned Gentleman have paid them such a visit ? Supposing security and the public peace, than if it depended upon the the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork had been tried for birth of a Prince or Princess Royal.—( Hear, hear, and a High Treason and convicted—and it had been said in that laugh.) But if once the precedent of an abuse of that pelvis House that he could have been tried for that offence—supposing lege were set, by that House entertaining every prayer that then that he had, would he . not have been deprived of that might be presented by Honourable Gentlemen on behalf appeal which, in his case, most justly set aside the verdict of their constituents, they need have no apprehension which convicted him. If Frost, Williams, and Jones, had the of its not being largely followed up.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") power of appeal they also would have had the same issue as in Were there no scenes occurring in the country that might serve the case of that Hon. and Learned Member. He had said, to act as warnings against the exercise of such a sympathy ? that England, in all her rejoicings, released not one of her There were such scenes in abundance. They had the case of political prisoners. To be sure they had done so in one case, the hypocrite who, about twelve months since, had been con but they were the Canadian rebels as they were termed. victed on a charge of poisoning an unfortunate woman, who was There was a vast difference between the offence of those pri- bound to him by many ties, and in whose favour was pleaded soners and that of Frost, Williams, and Jones. The Canadians religious character, standing, society and position, yet they had were found in arms fighting against her Majesty's troops— petitions crowding the table, praying the exercise of the royal many of them had committed much bloodshed, and had carried prerogative. Again, had they not learned and pious dignitaries their arms for some time through that country; but the unfor- interfering for an unhappy woman, and representing her as an tunate prisoners in whose behalf I appeal to you had no such excellent woman, one who would be most invaluable in the intention, nor indeed had their offence given such colonies, as a teacher of morality, a woman, in fact, perfect in an indication, yet how great has not been their punishment. all the cardinal virtues, save that she mixed a quantity of arsenic All he would ask was, that the case of Frost, Williams, and in her father's breakfast one morning?—( Hear, hear, and Jones, should be taken into consideration in proportion as it laughter.) Now if the House interfered in these matters, every should be found that they had the public voice, the public Hon. Gentleman would be constrained and required to present sympathy, and the public wishes with them. He thought he petitions, praying the clemency of the Crown on behalf of the had given sufficient proof that this was the fact, and if he had most serious offenders; so that it was absolutely necessary to then he would say he sincerely hoped that the Right Hon. make a stand on the present occasion. As regarded the Baronet would give his moat serious attention to the subject. clemency of the Crown, he would much rather entrust lie (Mr. Puneombe) would not say one word more beyond it in the hands of the worst Ministry, than to this, that he would add his most ardent prayer to that of the the best House of Commons. There was a plain petitioners, and he would now conclude by saying that he course before them; and while they had a Minister in whom would beg leave to move that an humble address from this they could confide, and in whom they did not declare their Home be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty want of confidence, it was their plain duty and evident wisdom would be graciously pleased to consider the prayer of the yeti- to leave the question in his hands; and as far as he was concerned tion he had presented in favour of the restoret ion of Frost, he could not contemplate why the present measure should meet Williams, and Jones, to their native land, their families sine with support. If he should be at all influenced to interfere in friends. such cases, it would be in the event of such severities being Sir J. GRAN AM said he should be extremely sorry indeed practised, as were exercised in the reign of James 11. Some such that, in resisting this motion, one word should fall from him case as that would make the blood boil ; but was the present characterised by acrimony or ill feeling.—( Hear, hear.) He that description of offence ?—( Hear.) What were the circuits entirely agreed with the Noble Member opposite that they stances? Three fellows assemble together four thousand or should approach.the censileration of this question coolly and five thousand men, armed—some of them with guns, scythes, dispassionately, and without the slightest regard to party or pikes, and other deadly weapons. They march at midnight, political differenedli.—(Hear, hear.) On that ground he (Sir attack a house, fire on the Queen's troops, and wound one of J. Graham) regretted that the Hon. Member should have her Majesty's justices of the peace while in the discharge of his deemed, it necessary, in support of nis argument, to have thrown duty—and wound him badly also.—(" Not badly," from an into the balance other cases of a somewhat similar description, lion. Member.) Unless his (the Right Hon. Gentleman's) that had been regarded more or less favourably. He was ready recollection served him badly, Sir Thomas Williams was badly to admit that the number of petitions which had been presented wounded on the occasion.—( Hear, hear ) Now what was the to the House upon this subject were very large.—(Hear, hear.) object of the movement? Was it not intended to have been lie would admit also, that the memorial to her Majesty, which general ?—( Hear.) It had been proved in evidence that the was presented last year, in favour of Frost, Williams, and Jones, object was to excite to a general rising ; and he should assert was signed by a very large portion of the working classes. that the language of Chief—Justice Tindal on the occasion was He was also bound to say that the course which the Govern- by no means too strong or too severe. Let them imagine ment had taken with reference to those convicts, was the the fearful struggle that might have ensued between the two result of representations made upon the most mature considers- parties which the outbreak would of necessity call up ; no man tion of all the circumstances of this peculiar case. He did not that they had ever read or heard of could convey to them an deny the competency or the right of parties to interfere for a adequate notion of its ferocity. The wars of the White and remission of ti is sentence, but he would say that in ail cases of Red Roses, or of the Cavaliers and Roundheads, would bear no such interference, or remission of sentence, they should be comparison with the scenes that might and would result from tempered with discretion ; such interference or remission that awful outbreak were it not so speedily crushed.—( Hear, should not be lightly undertakes', and the line of demarkation hear.) All that the imagination could conceive could not marked out should be strictly observed. In all cases where came up- to the reality ; and a shock would have been pro this wise and benevolent prerogative was exercised, all the duced, certain to be felt, not alone throughout England, but facts of the ease should be carefully considered and well throughout the universal world, the consequences of which weighed by the responsible agent of the Government. In the would in ages to come be deplored by their children and their present case he would not s h r i n k from that responsibility.— childrens' children.—( Hear, hear.) Such were the objects ( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member in his speech had described which the unfortunate men had in view on whose behalf the those convicts as mis gu id e d an d un f or t una t e men. That they House was then solicited to interfere ; but would were misguided he fully concurre d w i t h t he Hon. Member, for the House treat the case leniently ? Before it did so it should they were acting under th e di rect i ons o f those who s hould have first inquire what the motives were that impelled the unfortu given them better advice ; but that they were unfortunate he nate men to act as they had done. Was their motive a trifling denied, because their lives had been spared. Taking into con- one ? Quite the reverse.--( Hear, hear.) The crime was one sideration the crimes of which they had been convicted, which that included all other crimes against society. He spoke not were liable to the punishment of death, he did con- then of the unhappy multitude engaged in the outrage, but of cider that they were fortunate in not having the the ringleaders, to whom severity should be practised. The full sentence of the law carried out, but to have motive of Frost no doubt was success, and the hope of changing visited their crimes with a less punishment than that his position from a linendeaper to the protectorship which they were now undergoing, would, he conceived, of the kingdom—the leading Member of the Committee of have been a highly dangerous ' course to pursue. That the public safety, a second Robespierre, possessing boundless means feelings in favour of the remission of their sentence was strung of gratifying his love of distinction and flattery of the highest and general, he admitted, but he did not agree with the Hon. degree—that was the motive which he believed impelled him. Member, that the feeling was universal. But he begged to —( Hear and a laugh). Now, was it possible that that House tell the Honourable Member that there was a large body of could think of awarding less punishment to the men convicted persons in Wales who entertained the opinion, that the sentence of high treason, and of the intention to subvert society, than was humane, and should not be remitted. Her Majesty's would be awarded a mere clerk for the robbery of his em- Government entertained the same opinion, and they had the ployer's till , or a slaopman for the abstraction of a few yards of fullest reliance that justice had been done. The Honourable ribbons ?—( Hear, hear.) It was impossible that there could Member had stated that this conviction was not a legal one, be an end of crime, under the existence of such temptation. and he also stated very clearly and accurately the point of law unless the punishment bore some proportion to the crime com which had been raised in favour of the convicts at the Special mitted. The Canadian rebels had been instanced; but there Commission. But it should be remembered, that though the was no analogy between the cases, for as regarded them, the parties had been accused of high treason, every ad- ringleaders were hanged, and then an amnesty granted ; vantage had been afforded them, such as getting whereas, in the present case the ringleaders lists of witnesses, copies of the indictments, had not been hanged, whilst an amnesty had &c., &c. It was well known that preceding the trial the also been granted. (Hear hear.) He was not prisoners were anxious to have copies of the' indictments as about to trouble the House further, as he conceived he had said soon as possible after the bills had been found by the grand sufficient in vindication of what he had set out with. He ap jury. The Solicitor-General, eieners to do n, and accordingly al, wh s oappea a r e e e do dn on behalf they hadand h halfof the proved e the t o r f us te dthe House would part taltenbyweßid not interfere ghtHon.Ge to wrest ntleme ufrom opposite, t C h r o o s w e n cOp w ie a s five was eqvuealnays before the last day for granting them, the Crown the exercise of a great and high prerogative.— and they also had the lists of the witnesses within the limited (Hear, hear. ) period. In reference to this subject, the point raised at the Mr. DISRAELI said he was very glad that the Hon. trial was, that the delivery of the copies of the indictments and Gentleman, who had just sat down, had vindicated his letters. the lists of witnesses were not simultaneous—that was the I t was always to him (Mr D.), as also, he felt, to the House point that had been reserved. The Hon. Member had said, agreeable to listen to; the Honourable Gentleman vindicate that there should be a right of appeal in criminal cases as well these celebrated letters, which produced an effect at as in cases which h e had instanced. Now he (Sir J. Gra- the time not yet quite forgotten. He wished other ham) should say that in reference to this point, he never How:nimble Gentlemen, filling as eminent a position wou ld h o ld cut, the expectation that there should b e an as th e Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh, would rise and appeal such as he alluded to in cases of this description. Now vindicate other letters which had very much influence on whit was the opinion arrived at by the fifteen Judges in re- public opinion. He believed if they followed that example Terence to the Flint reserved? It was this—nine ou t of the the present debate would be able to stand comparison with any fifteen were of opinion that if the objection had been taken that on previous occasions had occupied their attention. He been so taken, the only result that would years not refrain from stating that many the whichon e occasion as entire of the fifteen judges were unanimously of opinion that if reluctance ; but he could at the right time it wouhl have been a valid objection, but the begged to assure the House that he trespassed on iitonwihthe voted d t e n al v q in u d e i s ea tio te n d . by H h e is hadnot the the smallest came off in that House follow would be a postponement of the trial.—( Hear, hear.) minorities that ever . I . .ou: s on lie should now repeat his observation, that, considering all the subject; the objection had to refrain from coming forward to ex advantageous circumstances under which the prisoners were in favour of tried, and the fact that the extreme sentence of the law had moral courage t not been carried out against them, th e y had been most forte- press an opinion . ago h e tMr.i whichenDisraeli) he i ted:then identical vote.He, however, thought it was impossible to put out of view the nate in the result. He now came to the next point made by the Urn. Member namely, that this offence should have been crime of which the prisoners had been convicted—it was a l merely as a moral demonstration i n f av our of crime that included all others.—( Hear, hear.) He was bound considered a t in i n h o e ri p y re , s Chartism. also to say, that he h ad ever c onsidered the senten c e to which Mr. DUNCOMBE begged to explain what he had stated they had been subjected was as lenient as any sentence could be was, that a number of people came down from the hills, for the under the circumstances.—( Hear, hear.) It might be well a moral demonstration. purpose of making %id that, in a case where the crime was so awful and the sen- Sir J. GRAHAM said he unde rs t oo d the Hon. Member tence so lenient, it was not the duty of that House to come to say, that it was to make a mo ra l d emonstrat i on . N o w this forward on the present as on previous occasions. It would be compelled him ( Sir J. Gra h am) to call the recollection of the very difficult to meet an objection which found sympathy in House to the factS of the transac tion , as they were elicited at e ver y breast ; but they should consider the circumstances under the trial, and he would tell them that he entirely concurred which all human transactions occurred. On the previous oc in the decision arrived at by the j ury . I t wou ld be r emern- casion, being the only Tory Member that voted in the minority, bored that at this period, in the mining districts of South he could not forget that they lived in a period of great political Wales, great distress prevailed, wages were low, the excitement, and that a system called "agitation" existed prices of provisions were high, and general disaffection ap- for several years, by which men became Ministers, peered to have been spreading, an d i t was under those oiroom _ parties had been transferred, and Administrations raised to stances those parties were exercising grea t influence upon the power, the members of which previously held seats at opposite workin e classes. It had been arranged that Frost, Williams, sides of the House, whether Secretaries of State or not he and Jones, acting in concert with others, were to divide them- was not going to say.—(Laughter.) That that report had selves into three different parties, each beaded by one of those, i been very prevalent, and that there existed a loose and de and each party eras to make a descent upon the town of .New- bauched state of public feeling in the minds of ignorant and inexperienced persons, induced by the great example set them, man as inviting violent discussion, but he understood him, that weieh had made' some men Ministers, and other men in the ( in opposing the motion now, it did not shut the door of mercy, sister country, more powerful than Ministers, could not be de- or do away with hope as to hereafter.—( Hear, hear.) On this nied • and, doubtless, it teas influenced by such example that ground I e (Mr. Aglionby) did net wish the motion pressed to led ;hese men to play' the part they did. Therefore, he a division, but the question was placed on different grounds thought they should net decide on the conduct of these men now; the country would read with regret the speech of the without reference to the circumstances. He would not think Hon. and Learned Member for Bute (Mr. Wortley), as the it right to tell them they had waged war against the Queen's question was now raised not on minute points of evidence, or troops, for such was most inexcusable conduct. Neither would the strict rule, of justice, but on' that of general policy. The he tell them the) had excited passions, and held out expec- country was perfectly quiet now, but a strong feeling existed tations which were illegitimate ; but which, had among the population on this subject which ought not to be they succeede 1, w o uld cease o be so.—(Hear,' hear.) neglected. The partlhs for whom meecy was now solicited Although their crime was great, and the judgment on them had suffered for the last six years punishment of the lenient, still. when it was brought before the House before. hq severest character; and, if' Ire was correctly informed, their had felt it his duty to record his vote in their favour. Had conduct in the colony had beenesuch, as to lead them to a re any circumstances occurred since to change his opinion? laxation in their favour. In facts their conduct was stated to The lion. and Learned Member was certainly very happy in be excellent. Their release, therefore, would not at all inter all his flights of eloquence, but never more happy than when fere with the public peace. In conclusion, he must say the he illustrated his arguments. He said, "Look at this case— Hon. Member for Finsbury was placed in a difficult position look at the morbid and effeminate sympathy it stirs up in the now, after the speech of the Hon. and Learned Member who public mind; it was this sympathy that said that a murderess last addressed the House, though he (Mr. Aglionby) confessed must be sent to the colonies of this country." It was this that, in the first instance; he should have taken the advice of sending to the colonies that influenced him in the course he the Right Hon. Baronet, and not press the matter further at had taken. It had been said that there had been a great insur- present. rection, and that the parties raising it were traitors ; but they Sir R. H. INGLIS said that the Hon. Member for Bute were not only not punished, but were rewarded for their crimes. had represented the speech of the Hon.. Member for Shrews- He did not wish the people of England to feel (although he bury as full of acrimony and bitter feeling, and with that did not want to do otherwise than palliate the punishment of statement he dismissed it. But to that he ( Sit R. H. highs) the sufferers)—he did not want them to feel the difference would venture to say, there was no expression in it of party between colonial and native punishment. He was so far an feeling.—(lronical cries of s' Hear, hear.") He repeated the advocate of native industry that he did not wish the people to expression that such was the fact. The Hon. Member for feel any exception in this instance. —(Loud laughter.) Shrewsbury went no further than this, that the light which led It was this system that made Frost a slave, and astray was light from some other place, if not from Heaven ; and Papineau a Member of the House of Assembly. The that, after what had been done in the North American Oise. Hon. Member appealed to the House to turn to the reign Ines, some consideration might be paid to the parties on . of James 11., which they would find replete with instances whose behalf was now sot g et the exercise of mercy.—( Cries parallel to the present case. That would be an interference o f ~ Hear.") Would agcy one deny that the traitors of Canada with circumstances on which they were not called upon to de- were deserving of more consideration than these unhappy men? ride. Here her M a j e sty's troops were fired upon ;he might The man who had saved Canada — Sir Francis Head—succes. ask were not her Majesty's troops fired upon in Canada ? He sive Governments had neglected, while the men who had sup should like to have from the Right Hon. Baronet the return of ported Papineau had been honoured. No man was more the magistrates that had been wounded in Canada. When the deeply persuaded than he (Sir R. Inglis) was of the guilt of Hon. Member appealed to the reign of James 11. as the model the three persons, whose case was then under consideration. reign for treason and sedition, was not the blood of Sedgemore He had never voted for them before and be should not vote as costly as th e bl o od spilt in the town of Newport ?—and was for them now. He had been pleased with the speech of the the House to be appeal e d to to show no mercy because there Right Hon. Gentleman the Secreta r y for the Home Depart was in the reign of James He a rebellion in which they suffered ment, until the last part of it, which certainly did not satisfy greater evils than in the late disturbances ? He could not deny him. It seemed to him to hold out an encouragement for the that the observations of the Hon. Member were always inte- repetition of this motion. He (Sir It. Inglis) hoped the resting to listen to, but they had no valid arguments against the Hon. Gentleman would withdraw the motion, but if he did motion of the Hon. Member for Finsbury. One of the most net, he trusted that it would be rejected by a large majority. remarkable arguments of the Hon. Gentleman was, when he Mr. WAKLEY could not see how the Hon. Baronet was told them that they were bound to support the Crown in the to be satisfied. He had commenced his speech by complaining exercise of the prerogatives at present in question, because it of the tone of the Hon. Member for Bute (Mi. S. Wortley) was necessary, under all the circumstances, that they should not and he (Mr. Wakley) therefore thought that the Hon. Ba question the conduct of her Majesty's advisers, but look at the ronet, overflowing with the milk of human kindness, was position of the Government. The Crown must not be questioned about to support the motion. But the Hon. Baronet went on because it receives advice from an individual who has told us in hes criticism, and came to a review of two speeches. one that in the present case he takes a peculiar responsibility. He that of the Right Hen. Gentleman the Home Secretary, and (Ms. Disraeli) would ask if the Government possessed the the other, the speech of the Right Hon. MembeM'or Edin confidence of that House, although it was supported by 112 burgh. Both speeches pleassel him, with the exception of one gentlemen—the regenerators of this country by their portion ; and what nortion was that? • Why the one indica change of opinion. The Crown in the exercise of its perogative t ion of a merciful mei humane feeling on the part of the Right was advised by a Minister, and to support these perogatives Hon. Baronet. Was that the position which the represent the House must also support the Minister who advised the ative of the Church of En g land ou g ht to assume in that Crown. The House bound to consider whether that House? He (Mr. Wakley) was most astonished and'eon• Minister possessed the confidence of Parliament, and whether founded at the spectacle he had witnessed. He had supposed in a week hence he might not consider it necessary that the that the Hon. Baronet would be the first to advocate the exercise of prerogative should be of a far different bature from merciful motion which had been made, but he was mistaken. the one then in question, and that it should be exercised in that Now he would rejoice if he could bring back the - feeling of the House, because another Minister might be ready to accept the ifouse to the impression which was'created by the conclusion of responsibility of office. The Right Honourable Baronet, the the speech of the Bight Hon. Baronet the Home Secretary. He Home secretary, had commenced his speech in what he (Mr. ( Mr. Wakley) was at the time sitting by the side of his Hon. Disraeli) considered to he his right position. Whatever Colleague, and he then remarked to him that he might be his (Mr. Disraeli's) opinion on the main question, he feared subsequent discussion. He literally feared could have no doubt that the Minister of the Crown was to What would transpire during this debate. The Right Hon. come forward and dilate en the enormity of crime, and also re- Gentleman wanted a vote of that House to justify him in, mark that the prerogatives of the Crown should be delicately keeping. Frost and his companions exeatriated. It was exercised. Nothing could be more just and politic absurd to talk of the perogative of the Crown—it was, in than the position the Right Honourable Baronet as- fact, an appeal to the discretion of the Minister. It was the act sumed and then dwelt upon. He (Mr. Disraeli) knew of the Minister—and the Home Minister. He considered that that a grave feeling prevailed amongst those around him with- the Right Hoe. Gentleman had made a fair speech. There out conversing with them. It was difficult to answer the ques. was nothing to complain of either in its tone or tion put by the Right Hon. Baronet. It was a matt e r o f tem p er. It was what the y mi g ht expect from surprise that her Majesty's Government had a fixed set of a Secretary for the Home Department. The Right Hon. opinions. The Right Hon. Baronet placed himself in a clear Baronet was placed in a situation of great responsibility. He position, both in point of constitutional feeling, and he hoped had in a great measure the conservation of. the country under he might say. in loyal sentiment of feeling, and yet at the last his especial control. It would be a very great exercise of he says—" Press me," (looking at the Hon. Member for Fins- discretion on the part of the Home Secretary to recommend bury as if he (Mr. Duncombe) had discovered that he was of that persons charged with such offences and found guilty should a squeezable nature ), "to bring forward this question be liberated and restored to their country. His Hon. Friend on another occasion —in another session perhaps had taken special care not to go into the merits of the question. in another Parliament, and I will treat you in a His Hon. Friend deprecated such offences as those of which the liberal manner ; at present, I wish that the exercise of parties had been found guilty, He spoke of them as cases of mercy should be delicately arid discreetly used. Press the the worst character, and he reminded the House that out of a Crown and Ministry then. But although crime is enormous, million of the petitioners who had addressed the House on the the exercise of mercy may be necessary, and this House will subject, none of them attempted to justify the conduct of be the last to interfere with it. Bring forward the motion, Frost and his companions, but the millions of petitioners were then ; and although we cannot be in a majority now, we shall of ()Pinion that if the prisoners had been in a higher station know what to say to them." He (Mr. Disraeli) had voted for of life, and had had money at their disposal, and bad these men years ago, and, whatever might be the opinion now, carried their case to another House, they would never have he would not desert them. They had committed a been transported.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.) lie was only speak , great crime and had received a lenient punishment. The ing of what was the opinion of the petitioners, and what was Government had only two courses—these men should the impression which universally prevailed. They all knew be pardoned, or they should be punished as an example what was the decision upon technical grounds, which was come to society. If they were pardoned , it wou l d be an encoura g e- to about four years ago in another place. What was the state ment to others to feel that though they m i g ht be criminal the of the country now ? Was there sedition abroad ? Were dsvine faculty of mercy was still exercised in this country. there any signs of rebellion—was there discontent to any great Sir J. Graham had said " Bring forward the motion again an d extent? No nothing of the sort ; but if there were public Ido not say that we will resist your aeal." What would b e commotion, and public agitation and discontent, all of them the result of that ? It would be that, pp if these men were par- would immediately say, " Why you are absolutely encouraging doped by the remission of their punishment , one of the rebellion by calling back these men." This then in his opinion dearest qualities of the Crown, a quality attributed only to was th a period for the Crown to exercise—or rather Majesty, would be exercised at a late period ; but would the for the Right Hon. Gentleman to exercise— his people feel gratitude to the Crown ? No, they would discretion. The speeches however he had heard this night had only comment on the timidity of Government. For thrown new difficulties in the way, and he found in that House these reasons he would support the Honourable Member. the bitterest enemies of Frost, Jones and Williams. Did Hon. if he persisted in coming to a division. He however proposed Gentlemen recollect that the Worthing people had no repro that he should be satisfied with bringing the question forward sentatives in that House ? That was a fact they never would to public attention and sympathy. The Crown might be in- remember. Millions were asking for the liberation of three duced to view with mercy the conduct of these misguided men. men whom they believed had been unlawfully transported. If, however, the Hon. Member pressed to a division, he (Mr. Well then, he asked, was there never to be any concession to Disraeli) should vote with him. popular feeling in that House? Were they always resolved to treat the etitions of the people with indifference, contempt, Sir J. GRAHAM said that he was sorry that he had been misunderstood. The House would remember, that he had and scorn? ln his opinion they were absolutely en misunderstood.deprecated any interference with the execution of the sentence, danger,ng the existence of the constitution and the and said, that the exercise of the prerogative of the Crown country by such a course of proceeding. The Home ought, in his opinion, to be dispensed with ; but at the same Secretary was now relieved from his responsibility by time, ho would not be responsible for any advice to her Ma- the speeches of the Hon, Faronet the Member for jesty, nor would he presume to attempt to place any limit to Oxford, the Hon. and Learned Member for Bute, and the the prerogative of mercy. Ri g ht Hon, M e m be r fo r Edinbur g h. He (Mr. Wakle y ) Mr. S.WORTLEY said that the Hon. Member had told felt that it would be no advantage to prolong this discussion, them, that some years ago he had voted on this question in and he therefore resumed his seat by imploring the Right Hon, favour of these men, He (Mr. S. Wortley) was net surprised Baronet the Secretary for the Home Deportment, not to care at the course now taken by the Hen. Member , in giving the (see straw for what Hon. Gentlemen had said, who were de same vote. He doubted, however, whether the House would sirous of excluding from the country these unfortunate men. be swayed by the reasons which seemed to influence the Hon. He called them unfortunate, for he considered all unfortu. Member's mind. He could not think the House would feel it nate. He begged him again to consider the case, with re was just to the parties whose case was under consideration, to ference to the legal objection that was taken on the trial, and introduce into this discussion the party feelings of common maintain the principle, that whenever a doubt existed, the debate and remarks of a personal tendency. He could not benefit of that doubt should be given to the accused. help thinking that it was unhappy when any Hon. Mr. G. W. HOPE said the Hon. Baronet, the Member Member, on light grounds, thought it necessary to bring for- for Oxford, had stated that the persons convicted of rebellion ward a motion to interfere with the prerogatives of many. The in Canada had been permitted tc icrive honours by the Govern- Hon. Member would find that the motion had been considered ment of the country. Now ' e assured his Hon. Friend with the greatest respect by those who were opposed to it, but that such was not the case. No persons convicted of being it would very little advance his case if there was a feeling on the engaged in that rebellion had beenemployed at all. The lead part of the people—(Hear, hear)—for the remission of ing persons connected with that rebellion had undoubtedly this sentence: He could not conceive a more unfortunate in- been allowed to return to their native country. They returned terruption to the course of that feeling than the course under no special pardon of the Crown, they returned under a now pressed, because by removing .the atrocity of the crimes flaw in the mode of proceeding, by which the conviction was these persons had committed, it interfered with the prerogative held not to be available against them. There was no pardon, of mercy, and rendered it still more difficult to be exercised therefore, asked for, and of course no pardon was granted. in this case. With regard to the representations made by the Lord JOHN MANNERS thought there was an erroneous Hon. Member as to the state of public feeling on this subject, impression abroad, that the opinions of the unfranchised were he (Mr. S. Wortley) begged leave to differ from him. He tre a ted with contempt by that House; but he was sure that believed that at this moment, if the Crown were to exercise th t various arguments which had been used, and the speeches the prerogative of mercy toward s these persous, it could hardly wnich had been spoken on that occasion, would convince people take a step more calculated to shock public opinion. He would fur- out of doors that there was no indisposition on the part of Cher say, that to remit the sentence of these persons would be an Parliament to listen personally to the representations of those act of gross injustice to many oth e r minor criminals whose crimes classes. His chief object in rising, however, was to express had been committed under circumstances far more deserving of his regret at a considerable portion of the able and eloquent mercy, but who had not received it. What was the nature of speech of the Hon. Member for Edinburgh. He (Lord J. the crime that had been committed ? The Hon. Member MadllErs) did not know whether it arose from a peculiar spoke of it as a tumult, but it was prepared for a week before. orga ;tuition of his own mind ; but he had au impression that Would they take the case of Frost, whose position had enabled a re.erence to historical facts tended to promote the principles him to exercise a great influence over the people? The House of Chartism rather than to militate against them. But the had heard from the Hon. Member for Coventry what was the Hon. Member for the city of Edinburgh, after eloquently state of that part of Wales where Frost resided? The Hon. denouncing the crime of which these unfortunate men Member had spoken of the act as the exercise of a had been found guilty, proceeded to say, that it fell particular right.—(Hear, hear.) Were they convinced that very little short of the crimes committed against these personswere under the belief that they exercised a particular the State in past ages. The comparison, however, in right—that they were under the impression that their right his opinion was decidedly too severe, and certainly the crime was interfered with by law? Thistlewood had some such which these unfortunate men had committed would. by no motive, and he struck at once at the highest apparent cause of means justify such a punishment as hieing hanged, drawn, and the evil ; but the persons in his case were aware of the pur- quartered, which was the punishment inflicted upon offenders pose for which they were led. It was proved that Frost led against the state in times gone by. his men to invest the town, and attack the military regardless Mr. NI ACAULAY explained that he never thought of con of the misery he inflicted on the townspeople. What was the veying to the House the impression that he was favourable to charge given to the jury by the Lord Chief Justice ? lie such a mode of punishment. asked the jury, did they believe that the prisoner had Lord J. MANNERS continued—At all events, the Right an innocent intention, or a guilty intention? did he Hon. Gentleman drew no distinction between the offence of intend to resist the Queen's troops, and sacrifice the lives of Mr. Frost and that of state criminals of a former age. That his fellow subjects ? What was the answer of the jury ? He House, last year, voted a sum of money as a tribute to recollected the suggestion of his Learned Friend, and the ob- the memory of Hampden. Now, what did Hemp servation of the Lord Chief Justice in passing sentence. The 'len do ? Why, that gentleman, like Mr.. Frost, Secretary for the Home Department had referred to that trial, levied war against the constituted authorities of the country. and he (Mr. S. Wortley) would also revert to it. The point Many people said Hampden 's cause VMS a perfectly legitimate left to the jury for their cons ideration was whether one , b ut that was a q uestio n of o p i n i o n. There were many the intention was innocent, and whether they believed who thought Mr. Frost's case a perfectly legitimate one. He that only a h arm l e ss demonstration was intended , wou l d go further than even many Gentlemen in that House, or that the intention was guilty from the first. who were prepared to vote money towards erecting a statute to The Lord Chief Justice declared that the verdict met with his Oliver Cromwell—(Cheers)d—for the purpose of encouraging ent i re c oncurrence; that his learned brethren , along with him - the efforts of future generations.—(Cheers.) Now, he pro self, . were all of the same opinion.—( Hear, hear.) It was tested against this system of palliating the conduct of regicides clearly proved that Mr. Frost came into Newport at the head in one age, and dealing harshly with the conduces)f those of many thousands with dangerous weapons, in order to take who excited rebellion in another—it was a dangerous and fatal possession of the town, preliminary to a general insurrection policy, a policy to which be could never lend himself. He throughout the country. (The Hon. Member here read an was prepared to oppose any such proposition as that extract from the evidence of one of the principal witnesses to which he bad alluded, and in all consistency he was examined on the trial, to, the effect that the object was to ex- justified in not voting for the proposition of the Honourable tend the insurrection all over England.) He (Mr. Wortley) Member for Finsbury.—( Hear, bear). believed that the disturbances in the north of England were Sir R. PEEL said that nothing more than the speech of his intimately connected with this movement of Mr. Frost. He Hon. Friend behind him had tended to confirm his impression doubted if the outbreak in Yorkshire, especially that in of the fatal consequences which must result from a discussion, Sheffield, would have taken place, had it not been for the in a popular assembly like that House, of the policy shown in proceedings at Newport. So strong was the opinion, of not the exercise of the prerogatives of the Crown. The Hon only the Noble Lord then at the head of the Home Depart- Member for Finsbury had declared that there was a strong ins ment, as well as Lord Melbourne, of the extreme attrocity of pression among millions of their fellow-subjects that the sen the acts of the leaders in this insurrection, that they were most tence passed upon Mr. Frost was illegal, and had that party unwilling to remit the sentence of death, which was the usual been possessed of wealth, it would have enabled him to appeal course in extreme crimes, when the Judges were divided in to the House of Lords, who would have overruled it. But opinion, as they were in the present case, on the point raised surely if there were a question about the legality of the sen on behalf of the prisoners after the trial at Monmouth. It was tence, that House was not the proper tribunal to decide it, only, when strongly pressed that they yielded. This was the But the Crown had taken every opportunity of obtaining the case in which the House was calleduponto solicit the Crown for best legal advice upon this point, and certainly there was the exercise of clemency and mercy.—(Hear, hear.) This nothing on the ground of informality in the proceedings to case, in his opinion, was not one calling for any especial in- justify a remission of the punishment. But, said the Hon. terference, which was only to be exercised in extreme cases. Gentleman, is there to be no concession to popular feeling? It was not justifiable in the present instance, for the objection Most certainly not, in a case of this kind, where the popular raised on behalf of the prisoners, and on which the Judges were opinion was altogether erroneous. If that impression was an divided, now brought forward as an argument for the exercise of improper one, or was decidedly unjust, that House ought to mercy, was purely of a technical character. It arose out of the resist it, whatever might be the number of persons who pre too great indulgence of the Crown. Mr elaule, on being strongly sented petitions in its favour. Tke question then for them to pressed for a copy of the indictment, in order to enable the consider was this, namely, was this popular impression a defence of the prisoners to be not up, haying supplied it fou r corr e ct on e or not? For his part he was decided l y days sooner then he was required by law. They took advantage of opinion that it was incorrect. He was net of the hurried manner in which the indictment had been got founding that opinion upon any impression of his, own up, and raised the technical objection to which he had referred. but upon the decision of the highest le g al authority. The Yet, on this point, the prisoners had counsel of the first legal whole of the 15 Judges had considered this question, and had ability, and the case was argued before the fifteen Judges, decided against it. The judgment had been delivered by a where every consideration and attention was paid to it; yet the man who, of all others, was the moat forbearingandth a e d m va o n st majority of the Judges decided against the objection. If so, disposed to give a prisoner th e benefit of any doubt or on what grounds could she now remit the sentence ? These par- tees, in his favour—he mean t Lord Chief Justice Tindal—and, ties had been guilty of an offence te . the gravestnature, the punish- in fact, the whole of the 15 judges were:influenced by a sincere The de ment for which was the loss of life, and but for the technical error desire to give the prisoners every edv tn antage. the informality Judgesof the had referred to would have been visited with the extreme cided against the allegation relating . nut only decided upon this point they went penalty of the law. If, on any future occasion, any cause delivery should be made out fur the exercise of mercy, God forbid that further, anidinctotrihs?tylered o w n ha ' t the effect would have been had the House s h ou ld s t a nd in the way ; but lie must say that on the informality of the delivery be en taken at the p ro p er ti me. the present occasion, and in the case under consideration, there I Now, what would e have been the effect , in point of lays, of the were no grounds for any special interference now.—(hear.) objection, urged had it been taken at the proper time? Would Mr. A GLIONBY express , d his sorrow at the speech which it have been the remission of the ye r sentence, itlhaavet t h o be r a would dcr othwen i t me h ffi have the delivery of the prisoners from all punishment? had just been delivered by the Hon. and Learned Member. 1 trial,w ou 1 d in m e n r r e d l He (Mr. Aglionby) had wished that the Hon. Member for I Not n et postponing Finsbury, after the speech from the Right Hon. Baronet !of the lt ( Sir .1. Graham), had left the question in the bands of the ' have . an opportunity the of correctingmight notices according to law. But the Judges yet be opened for the exercise of mercy; but after hearing . decided that the conviction was, upon the wh o l e , a p er f ec tly the last speech, he (Mr. Aglionby) co nfessed the Honourable , good one, and therefore the Crown had a p er f ec t r i g ht t o carr y Member for Finsbury had a d ifficult course to pursue. it into effect. k i`dow, he apprehended he was correcstating He considered the Honourab le Member for Shrewsbury must the legal decision of the Judges upon this case. This t opular have misunderstood the speech of the Right lion. Baronet. He impression, thee, of the millions was erroneous, and it was (Mr, Aglionby) did mot understand the Right Hon. Gentle. the province of the How l notwithstanding the petition, which ``~,. ........'''' ' TFI 0, SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORNING, MARCII 11, ram