The Sun. — London, England, 1812-12-19 00:00:00

t I►'IPER,IAL- PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, FRIDAY, DEC. !18. The ,Lord) CHANCELLOR being detained at Carlton House, did not come down until nearly five o'clock ; and after prayers were read, the several Bilk brought up from the Commons yes terday, among which was Lord Wellington's Es tate Bill, were read a second time. PRISONERS Of' WAR—SLAVE TRADE. Previous to their Lordships entering upon the Order of the Day, Lord HOLLAND called the attention of the House to two topics, which he deemed of great national and public importance. One related to the Exchange of Prisoners of War ; a considera tion respecting which sonic information should be given to Parliament. The second, and on which the Noble Lord laid the greatest stress, was the Foreign Slave Trade: :It was six years since': the . House came to a resolution to address the Crown, to make such representations to Foreign powers as would induce them to co-operate with his Majesty. in endeavouring to put a final stop to the trade.— This nefarious and disgraceful traffic wa s carried on exclusively by thoSt two powers ,nts whose' • councils British influence was the most likely.to operate : at least it was carried op under the flags of those nations. lie much regretted that no mention had been made In the Apeech from the Throne ai to the progress which was made in those negociations, said by Ministers to have been in stituted with a view to its total suppression: Un der such circumstances, he wished to. call upon the Lord opposite, to state what progress had been made in these negotiations, and the more so, as nearly the greater part of his Royal Highness's :Ministers were those who had taken an active part against the abolition. In addition to that question. he should ask, whether any negotiation was pn foot, or intended, respecting an exchange of prisoners of war % It would,depend upon the answers he should receive, whether or not he should feel it leis duty to institute or propose some Parliamentary proceedings upon these subjects. The Eat' of LIVERPOOL agreed with the Noble - Baron as to the public importance of the topics to which he bad ,adverted. With respect. to an.. exchange of prisoners of war, it was certainly de. sirable that sonic arrangements should be made for that purpose, and he trusted the Noble Baron , would give him credit, when he stated, that the object was anxiously in the contemplation of Go- vernment ; and that as far as concession could go, every proper one was afforded on the part of this • country. At the -same time he had to state, that no negotiation was pending at present for that purpose. For the last six months the state of the enemy was such as would naturally account 'for that circumstance. With respect to the other -question, whatihis:sentiments were upon the point were well known; but he hoped the Noble Lord. would do him the justice to think, that no consi deration whatsoever, though once opposed to the abolition, would .not make him not only as anxious, but, perhaps, still more so than any other. person„ the moment the measure became a part of the • law,,to carry it into the fullest effect. The nego eiations adverted to were' carrying on, but ob stacles of a peculiar nature may be -in existence.— , With respect to one of the countries in question, he had, however, strong reason to hope, that the objects of these may he effectuated to a great ex tent. With regard , to the other country alluded 'to by the Noble Lord, Spain, he claimed credit for the assertion, that no effort would he wanting On the part of the Executive Government to bring the negotiation to a successful issue, How far it had proceeded it was unnecessary to say, but he certainly should deprecate any thing being prema turely done. RELIEF TO THE SUFFERING RUSSIANS. The Order of the Day for taking into considera tion the Prince Regent's Message of yesterday upon this subject being read, The Earl of LIVaRPOOL rose, be said, to pro pose an Address to his Royal Highness, in conic quenee of his most gracious Message. It was pimps unfortunate, as to meeting their Lordships' wishes, as well as his own, that he could not at once leave its adoption to an emanation of that candour and feeling, which be was confident, must pervade the minds of the great majority, not only of that House, but of the country, on the subject to which it refeared. But, however, having un derstood, that, not there certainly, but among sonic persons, doubts were expressed of the pro priety of the measure to be proposed, heshouldill discharge his duty, if he confided it to such an ef fect. Among the extraordinary events of the last 20 Rears, there had been no period in which events were more unexpected, more singular in their na ture, or momentous in their consequences, than -those which had taken place within the last 6 months. They had seen the Ruler of France, whose career ot successes exhibited in so many conquests, un -tier so musty and various combinations against him, they bad beheld placed in a situation and circumstances very far different from any of those that have preceded. He believed, he may say, :t.inat if all the armies ever yet collected by France, either with respect to numbers—to the qualifica tions of the Officers who commanded, or the va rious appointments of the force, there never had been exertions equal to those which France had lately brought to act against the Russian Empire. The aggregate amount was not less than three Inundred and sixty thousand men, with a body of lio,ooo cavalry. With these the defensive force of Russia bore no comparison. The circum stances in which it was placed at the time peett tiarly deteriorated it. The-delays of the pacifica tion with Turkey, retarded the junction or, co iaperation. ot the principal Russian armies. The circumstances tinder which these forces were placed, lead necessarily to a system of defensive • warfare. There were other considerations which rendered the Russians armies inferior to those of France; besides being numerically inferior, they were particularly so with respect- to -cavalry. Ile slid not intend to enter into the detail ofthe miii tray operations that took place_ .But there was -one most important consideration to which he had to advert, namely, that the species of opposition evperienced by the ',French in Russia, was far dif ferent from any they had yet encountered in their aggressive wars or invasions, with the exception of that inthe Peninsula. The difference was, that whatever armies' they had to contend with, the 'people did not stand forth as in Russia. Their exertions in defence of all that was dear to'thein - -shewed their disposition to make any.sacrilices, rather than submit 'to their cruel aggressive in vaders. FroM .a view of these exertions may be judged what countries are capable of in their own defence. Proofs of this would be seen in the great and prominent feature of the campaign ; the evacuation and destruction of .MoscovV: • . What parallel had that stupendous sacrifice in thea:inals of warfare ? d population.exceeding two- hundred thousand had evacuated, and left their habita tions, and 'nine-tenths of the city, was devoted to the flames sooner than it should' become a retreat to,the enemy. Where was any event that could be put in composition with that ? But the sacri fice of Moscow was not the only one made by the patriotic and indignant Russians. No 'less than one hundred villages . were left and consumed on the advance 'of the enemy, and their inmates re tired for shelter anti security to- th e woods and forests ! Those sacrifices were the greater, where . the rigours of the climate -are•lwoverhial. If he • made these statements way of appeal. to British generosity or to British humanity, the es tablished characteristic of the nation, he felt con fident the appeal Would be. sufficient ; but tu peradded to these, there were considerations con nected with feelings of.national interest, and of national advantage. ',The question did not rest on. considerations of-feeling or humanity ; important Britisb:interests were involved, not 'only great and remote, but immediate and direct. It was well known that a favourite object of the French Rider's policy was, the exclusion of British trade .and commerce from the Continent ; and that the principal and most . immediate. object for which Russia was invaded, was fur the purpose of strik ing a deadly blow against Great Britain. In fur therance of what was called the Continental Sys tem ; it was a direct strike upon the interests of Great Britain, immediate and direct. Consider ing the conduct of Russia farther, with a view to national interest, was it no object to open to the country a market of 35 millions of people ? Were they to look to the conduct of Russia, only as an advantage and a relief to this country, where articles were rising in value every day ? What it was proposed to afford to that gallant and patriotic people, who had made such unpre cedented sacrifices in defence of the independence and religion of their country, no gronud of hesi tation could consistently exist. A country pre served as this was from the ',lethal evils and cala- Mities of warfare, could but ill judge of the suf-• (clings of a. country so circumstanced. He felt as - much as any man for the unavoidable sacrifices this country had made, and may still be obliged to make ; yet these were nothing to-the real ca laMities of actual warfare—they were nothing to the sacrifices made by Russia, or other countries, where the war was carried into their bosoms. This relief they were called upon to afford, was that which of all others was the least burthensome or. injurious to the country. It was a measure of prudence as well as humanity ; it was a manifes tation of the national feeling at least, if the relief may not be so extensive as was desirable ; such measures tended to cement and consolidate that bond of union and amity which so happily sub sisted between countries where alliance and connection .may. be formed, and above - .all others, on national principles. Ile would not look more narrowly into the question, but had to observe, there appeared a disposition among the higher orders in Russia to contribute largely'to the relief of its suffering peasants. — What they were called upon was only to come forward in addition to the contribution so made. It Would make them feel that the aristocracy of this country also cherished a strong •interest (he '- meant that House), as well as the British, in what so deeply affected them. They should feel. a pride and t satisfaction at an opportunity of coming forward in a way which would so decid edly evince the feelings and disposition of the British nation to the subjects of a most faithful and magnanimous ally. The Noble Earl Con cluded, by moving an Address to his Royal High ness the Prince Regent, assuring hint their Lord ships would cheerfully concur in such measures as may be necessary to enable his Royal Highness to effectuate the object of his most gracious Message. He then added, that the amount of the proposed relief would be 200,0001. The Address being read from the Woolsack— Lord HOLLAND rose, and observed, that in the course of his Parliamentary life, no question that ever came under their Lordships' consideration placed him in a state of greater embarrassment ; and fOr these reasons :—On the one hand, he felt the measure to be unwise and improper; yet, on the other, though unwise in itself, it would, as being'once proposed, be improper to. meet it with negative. lie therefore should vote for the Address. " He was confident, however, that if there were no other compensation given than what was then, before the House, the propriety and policy of the measure was highly question able. It vas questionable on every motive that should regulate sucti grants, and On grounds of state policy. The Noble Earl, on setting out, had noticed that objections were, entertained to the measure, but those reasons he bad assigned were those allowed by its opposers to operate in favour of it ; and he had entirely overlooked those reasons which they had urged against ft.. - - He most heartily concurred in a great deal of what had just fallen from the Noble Lord; , as re ferable to the sufferings and the patriotic devotion of the Russians. The peasantry were - entitled: to peculiar praise for their conkluct ; an hundred concurrent reasons may cheer, stimulate, and sustain military men, either officers or soldiers, even in the hour of death ; but the peaceful pea sant had no such incite►nents ; when he sacri ficed. his - all, it proceedad from nothing but pure devotfou to his country's cauSa. For every thing done in the cause of - national 'independence, be felt as warmly as the Noble Earl, whether they were such exertions as were made 20 years ago by the French .Republican Uovernment against an un provoked invasion ; or the efforts made by monarchi cal Spai4 against the aggressions of the EMperor of France. He doubted the policy of the measure , in question, upon - very - 'different grounds than those contemplated by the Noble Earl. He doubted its efficacy as to the proposed object. He din not mean to dwell upon the extent of the gift; as affecting the resources of. the country, but he doubted its 'efficacy in relieving the - sufferings of those who were the immediate objects of it. The Noble Earl thought it was proper to forward the assistance immediately, yet he solong withheld from forwarding assistance to the cause of Spain. If directed to the exertions made in that quarter, it may operate more serviceably for Russia than in 'the way proposed. It had been a request of the Government of Russia, that assistance might be sent to Spain ; and he adverted to the small sum which the military chest of Lord Wellington was at oee time allowed to contain. Thus deem• ing of the measure, it ivay be objected to him, then why not meet it with a direct negative TO this he answered, that the amount, allowing every other consideration in its favour, would fall far short of the professed object ; indeed, two .millions would, under the circumstances, be mote appropriate Yet it may shew a disposition on the of this country to assist the suffering peasar s of Russia, and on that principle his vote of rcj 3tion was withheld. But, he confessed, ! he wo, not persuaded that the Noble Earl may not 1-ave had other reasons .for . proposing the measure, than what be had thoUght proper to state to Parliament. He trusted, and hoped, that the .Noble Lord had some other reasons, and therefore, leaving the responsibility with him, he would conctir in the vote. He trusted au entire concurrence might be brought about between the 'two Courts of St. Petersburgh and London ; and that they may sincerely co-operate, not only as to belligerent Objects, but concur and agree as to the objects, and to the basis of a negociation for peace. He founded that hope on the vise, pru dent,and temperate words held out at the corn- ' mencement of the Session. He. hoped and trust ed, that not only the tw o C our t s i n question, but the council's of their allies May he imbued with a desire and wish for the re-establishment of peace upon a firm foundation—that they may be satis fied with giving a substantial and permanent inde pendence to countries which were yet but nominally independent of France. He was free to acknow ledge, that, since the period of the year 1799; he did not recollect any opportunity so favourable for such objects. He was ready to acknowledge, that in many situations of things, a Member was jus tifiable in submitting propositions respecting peace and he thought, that with the entire con currenceof the two Courts, such d system may be established in Europe as may give ,indepen deuce to those Powers who are now but nominal ly independent of France. Such, he trusted, may be the object, and not that of any .vild and imprac ticable attempts to change the Government of tl-,at country. On the particular grounds he had stated, the Address should have his vote. - • The Question was. then put. It was voted by their Lordships nern. tils. and ordered to be pre sented to their Lordships in the usual way. COLD COIN BILL. The Marquis .of LANSDOWN said, that he would state a 3 shortly as possible, the motives which in duced him to doubt of the policy of persevering in the Bill before the lionse. lie was not averse to the whole of the bill, for be thought that there . was at least one part of it which was rendered ne, cessary by the policy which had hien adopted prior to the passing of the bill. It ought in his opinion, to be considered in two points of view ; the first. was the protection it afforded against landlords who may-be disposed to make a severe use of their power. Against this part of •the bill he was not now disposed to argue, hut he could not admit the policy of the second part, which went to compel people to circulate gold for less than its value. He would now ask, what wet e the effects of the bill? Did it induce- people to consider gold and bank notes of equal value, when in reality they were not. so ? or had it the effect, .as was ex pected, of retaining gold coin in the country ? The very contrary vas the,fact, and the' same consequence followed in every country where the same measure was had recourse to. No law could be sufficient to prevent the traffic in the circulat ing medium of a country, where the temptations to that traffic were so great ; and the declaration of Parliament, that gold and Bank notes were of the same value, could have no more effect upon the public mind than a decree said to have been passed by Buonaparte at the con►nence►neut of the war in the North, which stated, that nothing was to be believed as authentic but what was con- tained in his Bulletins. If'the object of retaining the gold currency in the country was not obtained by the Bill, he was at .a loss to know' what object was gained by it. It did not facilitate the opera tions in the Peninsula, unless they could he said to be facilitated by withdrawing from the public cre litor a great part of the interest of his debt. Such an object wcs not, and he believed could not be avowed to any Government. Even the Government ' - itstlf were obliged, in their foreign transactions, to act upon the principle Of two prices, and he did not see any reason why the same should not be done at home.. The Bill only pre vented the open manifestation of two prices, but did ,not prevent them. It, however, circumstances rendered it necessary to keep up a paper circula tion, he wished much that some means untold be adopted, of preventing more effectually, the 'coun terfeiting of Bank paper ; and in the state to which science was arrived, he had sufficient son to believe that such means might be devised. He could wish at least that the Bill were divided into two parts, by which means, that part which compelled people to circulate gold for less than its value, may receive a separate con sideration. Lord CLANCARTY said, that though the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne) set out with a promise that he should not enter into the question of deprecia tion, most of his arguments turned upon that point. The principal object of his reaseningsecm ed to be the necessity of two prices: in the coun try ; but, in what he said, he never once separat ed the consideration of geld. and gold coin, which were very different things. The Lill did not pre vent two, .or 20 prices for gold, it only prevent ed the circulation of gold coin at different prices. He agreed with the Noble Marquis in his desire of preventing, as far as it cOuld.be done, the pos sibilitv P!„,,,tp • . ; 4: 1.1,. Noble Marquis•bad any plan by which that object could hilEffeaed, he was certain the Government would' willingly adopt it. The. Honie - then went into a Committee on the Bill. ••• .lAnd - HOLIAND wished to know, what wak the meaning of the word " current" in the $ill? • The Earl of LIVERPOOL said that it meant the Current . value of gold coin, according to law, The 1 .- ..esolutions were then agreed to without any amendment, and the Bill was Ordeied to be reported.—Adj ourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, FRIDAY, DEC. 18. THE GENERAL ELECTION. The SPEAKER stated to the House, that the Pe titioners against the return of the Members to serve in Parliament for Bath had forfeited theirre eognizances, and had thereby b ecome li a bl e t o the, penalties imposed by law. Their Petition he, at the same time, observed, was lost through this omission. The SrEAKklialso stated, that he had received a letter from Mr. Bouverie, who had been return ed for Dorchester and Downton, aml made his election to serve for the latter place ; and a simi lar letter from Sir C. Saxton, returned for Mal mesbury and the City of Cashel, and who had made his election of Cashel. New writs-were consequently ordered for Dorchester and Matmes bbry. A new wilt was ordered for Bletchingley, in the room of Sir. C. Talbot deceased. Mr. C. CALVERT wished to present a Petition, complai►►ing of an undue reurn for the Borough of Southwark. Having read the Petition, and stated that the reason of its not being presented with in the time limited by Parliament, was, that , the Petitioners were not aware of the regula tions. ' , Ti►e SPEAKER informed the Honourable Gen= tleman that the House had never departed from. the rules laid dawn on this subject, and could not admit of such mistake, or allow of any such igno rance as was now pretended. The petition, of course, dropped. A Person from the Stamp Office presented an account of stamps issued for promissory notes', &c. and a person from the Exchequer' Office pre-_ _ sented an account of the War. Taxes for the last year; both which papers were laid an the table, and ordered to be printed. Lord OssuLst.Tox presented a Petition from the Subscribers to a third Theatre to tha Metropolis for leave .to bring in a Bill, authorising them to erect such Theatre. Mr. C. JOHNSTON moved for numerous ac counts relative to allowances and remunerations to Army Agents for managing the affairs of Regi ments, the statt, Artillery, Engineers, &c. all of which were ordered, after a remark from Mr. C. Long, that a considerable time mus t e l apse be fore it would be possible to make up some of the returns. A Message from the Lords signi!ied that their Lordships passed the St. Domingo Inter course Bill without any Amendment. OATH OF TILE PRIVY Mail,. Mr. WIITTEREAD moved that an Afilres slibuid be presented to the Prince Regent, priving that his Royal Highness would be pleased to order to be laid before the House information, if the Keeper of the King's Privy Purse had taken - the oath prescribed by the 51st of the King, sec tion 28. The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQU i ER had no disinclination to the object of the motion, but was extremely at a.loss to know how it could be complied with in its present form. It the lion. Gentleman wished to bring forward any charge, he had better withdraw his motion till irconld be properly ascertained whether or not the Act had - - been attended to. The charges oa the . .I)..,ivy Purse were heavier than its means. Mr. WHITBREAD said he had no charges to ~,' 1 bring forward, aO4l his ruction was only intended ' • to ascertain if the Privy Purse had taken the oath - • prescribed, as a guard against his using the money • ' entrusted to him, in corrupting that House. He did not suspect that such had been the case ; but if they made enactments, it became them to see that their provisions were observed, and not .. slighted through inadvertency, which was all he supposed in the present instance. He was sorry to hear the charges on the King's Privy Purse were more than its resources, as the difference would probably come hereafter for them •to make up. Lord CASTLBREAGII said it Was not usual, to ad- ' dress the Crown for any information not con nected with the ,Executive Government ; and the . only objection to the Hon. Gentleman's motion was, that it called on the Prince Regent to search r • for information in the Courts of Law, in order ;.•• to lay - it before the H ous e. It wou ld b e much g; more eligible to apply to the proper Officers of the 4 . ~„ Court of Exchequer. Mr. WHITBREAD assented to •this proposition, ''• and having worded his motion accordingly, it was i agreed to. THE TAX ON LEATHER. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving in to a Committee of Supply. On the question that the Speaker do leave the • Chair, Mr. BENNETT referred to the Petitions on the table againt the Leather Tax imposed last Session; and previous to calling the attention of the House to that subject, he wished to hear from the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if it. was intention to pay any regard to these ap plications. He was proceeding to offer some fur ther observations, . when The SPEAKER rtminded him that it was desirable, to ahtain from all arguments on giving notices, as if that were permitted, it would leact to the'in troduction of numerous premature and unneces sary discussions. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in reply to the question put by the Hon. Gentleman, begged leive to say, that after the most mature investigation into, and deliberation upon the sub= ject of the Leather Tax, he had no intention sub s. • - ..1