The Sun. — London, England, 1812-01-28 00:00:00

oa their report the House should not only be enabled tu;:wr liberally, and with honour to the Crown, but also in such a manner as to satify the countey.— Althoueh he (Mr. -Tierney) was an advocate for the strictest practical economy, be was not disposed to drive it to extremes. He thought, however, icegUa lotions might be adopted more palatable to the coun try, because the country must desirein forrdat ion up on the subjea ; that the expeudit tire of - the year ex- • ceecled the estimates was what called for explana tioZt, and explanation satisfactory to the country. It '- was with that view, among many others, -that he was induced to_ oppose the going into the Coin ntittee for the present. He: not only had these ob jettinns on account of the want of -information in .the Papers on the table, but he also conceived the Bill, was not such a Bill air should pass. He knew the odium which might be cast upon him for this opinion unexplained, and he knew that he was liable to bare his opinions misrepresented out of doors. saying that the Bill ought not to pass, he meant that it was composed of such materials as ought to preclude the House from entertaining it. As to that part of it which related to the disposition of his Majesty's private property, no instruaions had been given to the Committee as to proposing any thing about-the private property; he had doubts too, as to the propriety of the House legislating on the subje&. 01. the accumulation of that property for years he wciuld say nothing, but be would say that Pailiarnent ought not to' be called upon to re cognize any p - ivate property as belonging individu ally-to h's M jesty. By a clause - in the Bill, three CommissiOnets w ere to be appointed to regulate that property, and these Commissioners were to have a salary each of Moot. per annum. ,•Nciw, it would be for the House to consider what the amount of that property•in- the hands of his Majesty must be, which could afftird topay three thousand pounds . a-yeat for the mere auditing of the accounts.—ln making these observations, he - did not wish to in-' quire ipso, or say any thing on the subject, which could. in the smallest degree aft; ct the feelings of any one branch of the R yal Family. Jut he must object to the intertence of Parliament, and much more so to the appointment of the Commissioners,. because' t hey were to be sworn " not to betray the secrets of the Prison House." This property was in etled Crown property, and not meant to be e . private property. In discussing this part of the subject he was conscious of the delicacy of his situa tion, and that he was speaking of things .not ordi narily %eh bin the view of 'Parliament; that he was consequently liable to misinterpretation, and in some quarters of wilful inisinterpreiation ; he therefore wished that those Royal Personages most interested j were present in the House to hear his sentiments. He was anxious that every syllable he uttered should be dealt out with becoming respea to the Monarch and those nearest concerned, and at the same time he should not consent to give more than was con sistent with the circumstances and honour of the country. With this impression, he hoped the House would allow him to go rather more into detail than he otherwise should have gone; and he should not have done so, were it not a question of the greatest iroportance in every point of view. The Bill pro fessedao-be " A Bill kir the due arrangement of his Majesty's Household,- and for the resumption (if for tunately that period should arrive) of the Royal Authority." Now the House would consider the circumstances under which ills Bill Sb trained came for discussion. An Am passed for settling the Re gency for twelve months under certain restrictions, which Aft had very ma:ly expired: The restric tions contained in that Act were such as the Prince of Wales felt were not only painful, but injurious and insulting to the character of his Royal Highness. Since the. passing of that Aft, up to the present mo ment, his , 110) al Highness had conducted himself in such a manner, as not only to call forth the admira tion of the country, but also to remove any suspi cion (if any loan had suspicion lurking in his mind when the Ad pased), that his future condua.would not be regulated in the same manner. The whole of his Royal Highness's conduct had been directed by attention to the comforts of his Royal Father, and which had on all occasions done credit to him self, and would give the-lie direct to any insinuations to the contrary. There was nothing in his Royal Highness's past conduct that could lead to a suspi biota that if he was clothed with full powets he would abuse those poweis, What was the return which hi, Royal Highness met with By this new Bill he was to be treated as a person not fit to be trusted—as if he had not atoned for any supposed or imaginal), errors by the rectitude of his conduct, and consequently had not wi t ed off that dark distrust which I 'dictated the inea , nre twelve months wince. The Right Honourable Gentleman seemed amused wi:h - these opinions, but he (Mr. T.) did not see much of comicaFty in them, and he ,vould endeavour to - convince the Right Hun: Gent. s o .— In considering the Act, he must make twoassump tions. In the first place, that it would in-substance place his Royal Highness on the throne permanently, (in the event that what all desired did not fortu nately happen) aid that it would make such at range mews that his Majesty might, if happily be could, - resume the Royal Authority. Secondly, that his Royal Highness ceases to be Prince of Wales tin that assumption, and of course whatever was vested in him as Prince of Wales, was at an end also ; that is to my, the Executive Goventnent would be en tirely in him. The principles which he had as sumed would be violated by this RII ; for the last year the country only recognized one Court,—Par liament wete now called upon to establish two Cow ts. With respect to the establishments of these Courts, many Gentlemen who had not heard the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman in detailing the plan, would be total.) , in the dark. It was proposed to vote 70,6001. per annum, in addition, and to make his Royal Highness a present of too,ouol. annually. Now, when he asked explana tion on this subject how would he be answered ? Why, the Rt. Hon. Gent. had stated, as he under stood the plan, it was t his : his Majesty- had a Civil, List Revenue of g 50,0001. (putting out of the ques tion the revenues arising from the Duchies of Corn wall and Lancaster) ; out of that - List he prOposed to give 60,0001. - to the Prince of Wales; he would therefore have at his disposal an available income of about goo,oool. Of !bat sum it was proposed to .ke 170,0001. namely, 100,0001. for his !Majesty's Househoula, 60,0001. for his privy purse, and 10,0001. for her Majesty's use. This grass sum of 70,0001. deducted from the . goo,oool. would leave a clear income of 730,0001. I.lls was one side of the question. On the other It was pro posed to add the Bum of 70,0001 which would bring it to 800,0001. to which must be added also, .50,0001. to be, given- to his Royal Highness as Prince of Wales, making in the wb01e1350,0001. leavipg the Civil List Revenue its the hands of his Royal Highness 50,0001. less than what his iloyal Rather enio;ed: Now ' , whether the sum so p'ro posed to be given was enough to maintain the dg- Laity of the Sovereign he Could not say, and 'there fore it was necessary he House shOuld be inform ed. It had been stated toe by the Right HOn. Gentleman that his Royal Highness would tie- • fray the expences of the Windsor establishment when there, obt . of the Revenue thus appro priated for his purpose; but with respect to Carl ton House, here was no precise- information given ; without full infmr4tion, the House vvould, by passing this Bill, run great chence of de eels/mg the country, as was the case in 1804, and seeing how injurious that precedent was, it was dangerous for the House to aat typo it. Besides, the House was called upon now to make a new Civil List for what he must consider a new reign.— The Prince at Present enjoys a revenue of 120,0001. bf which 50,0001. is iu th'snew order of things to be deducted, and then a sum of 70,0001. annually wille - emain in his hands, which, alter deducting the '50;0004 101 be applied to the Civil List, would leave A balance of 20,0001. over this 70,0001. Parliament, as the Bill proposed, was not to have controul ; that his Royal Highness would administer it faithfully and duly he bad not the least doubt ; but notwith standing this opinion, sill Ire roust consider the pro position as a monstrous one, which called a Parlia ment to vest so large a sum as 70,0001. annually without - any sort of controul. Not only this part of - t he arrangement.was objettionable, but many others. In her Majesty was to be vested the color-out over . the 170,0001. to be applied for his Majesty's House hold. There were to 'be two privy purses, one under her Majesty's directions, the o ther under the controul of the Prince Regent. That of the Prince Regent 0160,000. was correct and proper; but w ith respect to the 70,0001. for his Majes t y's use, he saw no just grounds, because his Majesty would not administer the Government. By this arraege men!, what would become of Mr. Burke's If the privy pursed his Royal Highness, for instance, was net to be subject to controul, then his Royal Highness. would have conveyed to Wm a sum of 130,0001. with the full knowledge mud apprebstion of Parliament. Her Majesty would also have 35,001. deducted from the privy purse of his Ma jesty, the residue being reserved far the payment of the Medical Establishment, which might perhaps amount to bur a trifle, and the bilance would be conveyed to these three CoMmissioners. Tee House must see, under the proposed arrangements, in how very extraordinary a light. the matter stood,—recol leering always, that the Privy Purse did not of tight belong to the man, but to the office, and, in this case would be vested in the person who. could not administer the Government. He might be charged with making captious objections, —but was this a captious objection ? He did not object to the en tire sum of 170;0001. because, with the information before him, lie did not knoW whether that sum was too, much or: too little.—Was it to be understood, that all the charges would remain on the Privy Purse to be held by her Majesty, because, if so, the Re gent would stand with 130,0001. at his diaposal, and her Majesty have a sum of seventy thousand pounds for the Medical Attendants. With the kn ;sledge of the enormous amount of private pro pe-ty he could not consent . to vote such a sum.— But suppose the fact was not so, and that only 05,0001. shoeldsremain at her - Majesty's dispossl for the purposes b lure stated, how could so large a sum bd necessary ? Prove it, and no man would more readily vote it ; but he could not give his con sent to such a vote while there existed the possibility of its being applied to the increase of private pro perty. He could not with regard to the public in terests-agree to provide otherwise than sufficiently and abundantly for the maintenance of his M 'jests , befitting his station. Without further information he could not pi oceed. The disposition and arrange ment of the Privy Purse formed one of the main ob jections which he had to the Bill. The House must recolleCt, that in making these arrangements they were making them for a ne,welteign. It was his wish.that his Royal Highness should ascend tpe Throne not only with the confidence, but wi:h the blessings of the people. The R-elit Hon. Gentle mao had said that the sum of 70,0001. was to be placed in the hands of !he Prince '' to meet "certain engagements of honour." What did th e H on . Geneeman Mean ? di 1 he mean that his Royal High ness had cet lain debts to' discharg,e, for he could mean nutlong else, What those engagements were, to be sure, he did not know unless they related to debts. It so, and those debts were -thoroughly sifted, his Royal Highness would not be found sub ject to any other observation than that he had not acted upon all occasions with due propriety; that in some instances negligence might be imputed to his condutt, and in others the charge of profusiod: He should nut aCt either as the friend of hi; Royal Highness or of the people, if he did not say these "engagements" of which the Right lioriouiatall Gentleman talked ought to be stared ty, arid in an open manner to the House. If it wad hoended to repose confidence in the Prince, and had him as the footle soveteign, let the House act liberally-- pay his debts. He knew, that in thus speaking out he was perhaps not seeking popularity. He cared not for the interpretation which might be put upon, his conduit, or whether he offended high or low--he still must sty, that unless the debts were disgracefully contracted, Parliament ought to pay them. There was nothing, in his opinion, more dangerous to the Monarchy, than to have it under stood in the country that his Royal Highness had engagements which were of such a nature as not proper to be laid before Parliament. It was not con sidered monstrous to pay the debts of his Royal Fa ther, because they were contracied in providing that sMendour necessary to the support and maintenance of the dignity of the Crown. The objection might be taken if' his 11,foral Highness remained in the station of Prince of Wales, but when he ceased to be Prince, then the question assumed another aspect. Was lab condod to be held up to the country in a variety of points of view, which he would abstain from touching upon? In times like these it was not prudent to pursue any course which might be dan gerous to the Monarchy. He must call to the re colleClion of the House that clause in the Bill which noticed the excess in the 'Civil List e . ttpe - ndit - tire of - 00. annual ly, on the average, since 1804. It was 1 it right t o pay that excess, and he did' not 2 4 : 0 question it, would- it not be eqoally an a& of justice to discharge these "- engagements?" It was not dealing justly by the Prince to, say that his debts had already beets paid by the public : They were not paid by the public, but by reserving for that purpoSe a part of his Royal Highness's income, Which was regularly paid pp to 1804, wanting about _ two years of the time of completing payment of ail the demands. The Right Hon. Gentleman•recom - mended to the House the necessity of placing the establishment upon-some footing with respea to ar rangement,which might conduce to (he honour and. sattsladion of those who gave, and of those who received. With respeet to the proposition for the care of the Princesses, namely, that in town Royal Highness was to pro% ide the establishment for them, and in the country her Majesty ; that was a proposition • s Bich met his decided di . 4approbation. An Establishment ought to be formed separate for the Princesses ; they were arrived at an Age when rt_ became necessary ; but the whole of the arrange ments carried with them the air of suspicion. It was not alittleextraordivary - that the Right Hon.-Gentle man refused to come forward v. ith a permanent regu ,lation, especially when all were ready to bear the . burt hens v. hich must be imposed, with cheerfulness. Whitt other object could - the Right Hon. Gritleman have in view, in thus legislating from year to year, but this : to keep his Royal Highness every year under- reatrialons, in order that he might be induced lo give something to his Ministers ?— , But he (Mr. Tierney) wished to see him . relieVed from his em barrassments, not by proposing atty la%ish grants, but by giving to his Royal Highness what this House ought to give, and which, when given might settle his emaart ssments-etfeAnally. NVas too much to say that he Was mistrusted u ho was not all o 3ed the management of the-servants, necessary to !his Royal father ? Would not any set) in the humble cundii'uus of life suppose so ? Would he not consider .himself ill-treated by the adoption of sue?! unnecessary and suspicious arrangements ? But was there any advantagelikely to accrue to his Ma jesty from it ?--Assntninge - eheefattairat his-Majesty did req , iire a Lord of the aeleliarnber, a Groom of the Stole, and the Equerries formerly in attendance, what was there to prevent the Queen from asking those officers from the Prince Regent? Could any one suppose that he would refuse them ? Was there any difficulty in her Majesty's demanding the at tendance of those servant. who were known to 'be most in the favour of his Majesty ? The Queen had the whole management of the Household for the laat *, year, but where was the advantage of that what was the fact ? Up to July last, a few Lords in wait ing, a few Equerries, &c. were deemed necessary, but since that period the opinions of the Physicians went entirely to sbew that they were no longer want ing. But where, he would ask, was the necessity for a separate Court ?—For a Gault not responsi ble; for a Court whose expenses were not cog nizable by the Treasury and was not such a Cow t created by this Bill ? By it the sum of 110,0001. was put under the controhl of the Queen. Four • Lords of the Bed-chamber were granted to her, a Groom of the Stole, and, altogether, twenty-one offices wete at her disposal fur the maintenance of the dignity of the King. It ought to be recolleated, in the meat time, that under the former artange tnettt, when his Majesty wash ippily enabled to per form the duties of a Monarch, the Queen's establish ment let - let-led a splendour on that of the King; in short, the operation of each was - reciprocal; but, under the arrangement now proposed, the Queen's Establishment was separated from that of the Prince Regetit. He had no hesitation to call it a different Court a for, with all the different officers included in the Bill, with the pages of the back stairs ar.d the • pages of the front stairs, it was utterly inipossible to consider it in any other point of view. ft this was not a separate Court, he would wish to know'what was. H'is objections to such a system were strong in eae,y view of it ► -for, supposing the Prince and that Court to pull together, it would operate as a gre,t increase of the influence. of the Crown. The Prince would of necessity supply all those places for himaeif which were aiready . filled for his Majesty.-- Supposing, on the other' hand, that political did - ea (even that suppoai t i on and he was sure no others could r•ences shoidd arise, was hiahly improbable), to ,vs hat a situation would -the Prince. be reduced with a Court in opposition. Th e airily ground that he. could see for ail this was, awish for continuing the system of last year, a 5) stem of distrust._ He -was warranted in calling. it a system of distrust ; for it was evident, though his. Royal .Highness • was not in a situation to .speak his mind, 'ex cept through 'the medium of Ministers, • that be thought .so. The object of the Bill was to make her Majesty a substantive and •sepataie character, and . to invest her Majesty, with a power which he thought she ought not to have.— , He was sure distil her Majesty were riresentao hear • him, she would chink the better of him for this de claration ;: she-coal have no wish fOr the creation - of such a power, but there were others, he thought,- : W'ho might e kit it in the present uncertain stale 'of things. The U•ieen could oot wish for su':h a re gtllation as was rtcOmmended; aiid it was impossible that Alia Royal Highness the Prince Regent, should, for hum opinion was expleas e s to th e cow tary. The Bill was intended t o hand over- the. Monarchy into She hands of the Prince of Wales, but was it a pro per one for that purpose ? It he e: ere asked here in what manner would he provide fur the custody of his Majesty's person, or ao whom would he entrust it ? Undoubtedly, he would entrust it to her who could have no other feeling, and scarcely any other rimy, than to at rend to_ his wants and wishes. , He would entrust it to the Queen, but at the same time that he adopted this step, lie would have a sum granted in the Civil List to the. Prince Regent, for the purpose of meeting the necessary previsions for his Majesty. Those who recommended a contrary curse acted from, suspicion, and recommended a ciaurse improper at ad times, but mote particularly 'so atter the experience of the last twelve years. He would ask, could any son behave with more filial and dutitul consideration for a parent, could any son have acquitted himself better or more feelingly ? then he would say this Bill ought not to pass. The upshot of the whole was, that some general regula tion ought to be come to, though nothing could be more improper than that which formed the stabjett of discussion. If it was said that the undertaking of a different one would drive them on the period ' I W . heti reitri6liOns course eipire, he. Quid answer, that if ever there was a Bill %vote!) ought not to be brought forward before nib restric tions were reinoved,lbe wou l Td say that was the ore. It must be obvious, any concession would come ith moregrace from hi, Royal Highness_whtn he u a§ entirely free, than while it could bear the appearance of a soil of bargain to get rid of the =- D d body think that any thing improver could rake place op the part of the Prince in the. 'course-of one fortnight ? It would be satislathiry to the coun= try ; that a proper confidence 'should be reposed in the Prince Regent, and that proper means should be • taken for placing him with sufficient dignity . on the throne. The Parliament was of itself responsible far the manner in which that was performed, and wak. bound to rake care that he was treed from, cutnbrances which could, hi the slightest maneer, interfere with the splendour of the Monarchy. Hia bad confined himselt in what he had said to thee principle of the Bill, If he were to ati merely trotet his opt; opinions, he would oppose the Speaker'ir leaving the Ctiair altogether, in order to : get rid the Bill; but lest he should subject himself to ink. conception or misrepresentation, on a sue ject of:that kind, he opposed it conditionally, with a view, to the future apoiiffinent °fa Committ ee f o r •the purpose of considering the various points connected with the .Estibleihment of the Royal Mr. G. JOHNSTONE said, he was of opinion, that they would not discharge their duty to the puslic if they agreed to the arrangement in the manner pro- • posed by the, Bill, and did not utovide for the incle;s pendence of the Prince Regent by art adeqnate Civil • List. They ivere also bound to take those whole- . some precautions recommended by the: Constitutien for securing responsibility in the expenditure. The Right Hon. Gentleman who spOke last, had not etr• tered into the details of the subject, and he should . follow his example ; at the same time he should - observe, upon one or t 0 eases, in which he loped ,he should not be accused of enter•aining - any narrow or mean views. He was disposed to think, that e m ikiog proper allowances for the alteration in the value of money,the expel - ice, in various departments of lite Civil List would not be found to have ex. , ceeded that of the best times of our history : ~but 'when in 1804 they were called upon to vote an ex-, ces3 of 102,0001. lie would venture to state, that if t bet e was nut such a fund as the Droits-ot Admiral ty,, the excess would not h ave ta k en p l ace hers u uuld have economised better. 'This was enough to prove the unpolicy and the improv dence - of not adhering to the custom of our ancestors, by limiting The amount attic Cis it List, without admitting the supply_ of any cotatingent funds.' He made no charge against any one, for the p; aelice had obtain ed in all administrations; in that of Mr. Pitt, in that 'oi, Lord Glenville, and in that of •his . Right nourable F iend - (the - Chancellor of the'Exchequer)e,l berthas. waste, reason why'it ShoUld b.: permitted, •n that it was brought before the House. With respect to the Molts of Admiralty, stone persons contended that theybelOnged to his Majesty, upon - the same groutrds that all his other prop,i ry did, but ever it that were the case, it' furnisled no reason , why they should not be regulated by Parienttent.--- He conceived that even if his Majesty were, in per feet heal , h, it would be competent to them to debate upon all his revenue. If not, they had taken art unwarrantable liberty indeed, in voting fur Mr- Burke's Bill. They had also taken a great liberty in regulating the amount of pension.; to be grant ed out of the Scotch Hereditary Revenue. If it was stated, that this competency 'was restrict ed- to emergencies only, then he would make . •. answer, that this emergence had now occurred, so that the only- question was whether it be came them to take a narrow and limited view, or e latge one. Mete was great force in what the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last had said, as to the I power and euthorPy granted to the Queen. It watt_ known that there were six persons under her influ eareee the House of Peers, and four in the Houso of Commons, and he thought it a necessary step to provide, twat those Gentlemen who were appointed to the different offices descritied in the Bill, should • not Stave seats in Parliament. The importance of settling a specific suin for the Civil List was'great, in point of economy, and if they legislated without a view to it, they would not do their duty. Much more might be said en the subjett, of disbursemeets, but it was disagreeable. Ha should only mention one or two instances which would show the mis chief of departing from the principle to which h(t. had alluded. Oue 'instance wets, that of Sir S , doef sinith, to whom the public were indebted as mucrk as to any man, but they would find that in the year . 18 10, seven thousand pobndS were granted - to him fur ser,'ices performed tWelti: years preceding. Ile kneW that.hii Merits were great, and that the good he had- done, by- nego:iating Hith the French in , Egypt; m was eminently, great ; but. if t he Ci v il Li s t was limited,. this would not hate have happened • ... nay, his Right Hon. Friend himself - was so con vinced of the necessity of such limitation in future, that lie had broUght in a Bill to effect it, which, however, would not have so good an effect, as if . 3 , . • limited sum was granted t o th e Administration,- lot' witith - it Should be accountable. He concluded with expr.essing a hope, that the Bill would be so e' - tended, as to embrace the different objects to.whicls he had called their attention. • • Mr. MATTHEW MONTAGU, in explanation, said, that, in point of fact, Sir Sidney Stnith bad had but a small part of a sum which he paid out of his own pocket tur the service of the country. It ought not to be believed that the grant alluded to by i:is Honourable Friend was given as a remuneration or reward; fur the public w ere yet indebted 10 hip.) for eonve)ing' the Court of Lisbon to the B - .1. - "iil4. He thought rt but fair OM -this noble and generotits person should have the advantage _of an explana tion on this subject, that it might be seen there was nothing like a surreptitious grant connected with his name. • Mr. GEORGE JoHNSTONE said, he did not stater that the sum granted to Sir Sidney Smith was. out of the Droits of Admiralty, but out of the fund of Extraordinary Disbursements. He found that the claim wars of twelve years standing, and conc l u d e d if that claim were just, that Government must be' wiong in withholding it. Mr. MATTHEW MoNTAOu , assured his Honour able Friend that he had stated the fad correctly, and .that sq far from that gallant Orrlcer being repaid, part of his pay as Captain was withheld while absent on k.nother service. Sir T. TtJRTON said; Ite:Shoo!d not otkea to the