The Sun. — London, England, 1805-02-26 00:00:00

S' rll Mr ril aitefol. a mil'' , e in ill° yitri. 10 14° 11 3fetl ' wa y ti; sty le,Cl 3 V rl°4 In d I 0 )0 1 ' KiiYA Vial crf ss ie o4o l iflr iii 1)1 , 1‘ C~b t IV° .0 01 ~~ ~d~. est': 16 Nif v 4.... t; ''s L . IF 4 5 hmouTN,Fli. 24„--Came in the l shaav jitirr4lo e, Vlrs tm ( a Prussian), fro m 'scamp, for St, Andra, detained by the Naiad; the Fratneh tegger Gue.vessel No. 313, ciPtured by the Rhoda , Cutter and the Spani s h Brie iiivs4/.. R ac h a d , of M ar from the Havannah, captured by the Di suses L etter que, of Liverpool. ,Sailed the Taerreui and lien Men of War to joi n the Channel Fleet in Totbay. hitiIMOUTH, Ifltil. 2 eless;is P r i gate 5•'.-Arrived the Revelu , from Americ a ; and the D eca d e Frig ate , from duernsey. ............‘ ~7414 °uT tr, Fill. 2 5• . Yesterd a y morn i ng the : Pi Deli of this plac e , f rom Berwick, bound t o 4rldon, with oats, Was captured off Happisburg, Ili Lugger Privateer. 4 tiPt the The cr ew of the Sea Dog, Master, escaped in their boar, and landed it ttrinteiten.., They report that after they left licit own Vessel t h ey , saw the Privateer capture a The Stu ijo . t Was seen off this Port after she Ivileaptured, and two large Boats, manned by t h e tee Pencildes, and several other Vessels, went in Nttuit Oiler, but without succeisi Sastavesg' t's ----- h --, watt. 25.---.Catrie down from Chat_ arn ttl th 'Ns e Note the Ametbj,t. i l l Ihenth i i I the Ramifi es was p a id b ounty and two 4 the [ Cll4* 4 *, and will sail i n a - few d ays 40 j o in N O t• L e iv . It 4111!):!Ins which has been fitted up for the tecePti°4othe•Harboor Duty Men,,is ex p e Ct e d to ecalmileioned in a few days. b lat p --.,.. 14,„' ' 11. ,1 5. — Artived the Locust, Archer, or.wod,sntl Slarkler G un brigs, from a Cruize to. t ' 44 Coast of Prance , il ed, Rig Maiestv.Ship Ataelot e f or Y armouth Ni : tor 1144;44K- irrigat e , and Afaritrer dun- C . the Fiore, ~„ A MVI the British 12,ueen Transport, e Air e , i from Ipi v , ). 4 Plymouth, and remains ;, and the ' 474 hTast Capt. STEWART, East Indianian, from CrY) Ind remains. • ............ , , sib, t . fliol 'I"?. 2.3.--Sailed the Riche Armed Ship, the 4/ 4 [lt itti 4, 4 ~ tot a4cl ibm, Clpt LYONT, ThOtnnt 0 4 1 4 ' 'aPt, NEWTON', Raith, Capt. KELLY, lAt it) 0) Capt WRIGHT, Rattier, Capt. , t,litN' 67ftr, C.lpt. Ka I, LY, and Success, r .1414 q h i l . tp iaiti' i J of Ltzth, bound for the Davis's '': 4444,11,1,e " tY. itii.......... it, so.°o'.. PE 1. 22.•-..'rlle Indefienarence, Witt.. 'tlittlestoittd ytsterddy at the Holy Loch, from „Airiond' fte_r passage of 23 days. / 4 t / 46 ,, tl,n wednesday, at the Tail of the Bank, 447; she 3i A.. •7tru, GRAIIAM. from Charleston, in 'is to proceed for Holy Loch, as tri l iz at weather will permit, to perform qua . Arrived l' 1,1%0 ain the Pox,M'Ket.t.mt a running Ship, lilo a le r!°,l in 24 days. Spoke, on the 6th init. on, 4` lt 'ide of Cape Finisterre, the Privateer I"rte relkt.it; of Liverpool, on a cruise, out 1 Yll t c ot : 1 : 1 . 11 had taken nothing. b.4h144 0,:"4141, WATT, from Charleston, having Wed -.Periol f teld i t 0 her quarantine, came up on 7 cretin.. -s. t hs do ...........„..... 4 '40 [10411'4°4 frigate is appointed Convoy for the f the 1.4,1; to Illeiitit. ; lOn le .: 41 a *Agate, of 32 guns, which has been .1 4 04 4'44 building at th e new doek.yard at t er 4)4 airlions is expen e d to be launched the lar also 1 :“.• present month. The Aviford, 7+ Snitiled 1:11114ItIontrt dael the samel ltay. pace' i 5 CICICItd to I tri tiicz 11: at 4 L4 TTelt ye AY )RNs yi i , . of 4 130)43 s yterW4ilceruizin oars , . y,..,..r. _ ii. g or: t e analauar d Cosst, in a Hi t s . 1 4 4 a4(111A41 hip' lone" trlsg.' enmman e ' h v}Pvcsrx. O, Ittn , an ,, .a c asse.tnare!, with 075atetad I t u r ll* hvoiround swivels.' W . e fir st ttnr o i e - 1 'nun the mast bead at day.ltght in a k , tt ,,, ft and Owed her till about ten, when 4,2inl"ll'n akout thrte miles of her, and the wind yr, qu ite ft.. 419'7/ we saw her get out her tweePs• itl: a 44 turfo„u . thrvjtit h e , h ~nately some time before lon our ll s • a"' '-'aPtain im di t I tent the barge ' a ted glue ' h In"'ely L'. , 4 t o h e i „-r to cHace, vino 24. men, which . 1 4th p ` X actlY the same number as were on lal t , e ten c h ireSICI. Shegut her guns on one fl itt s a a4 ,f l tired them and Ihtt ..ater 0 - musquetry at . us at 'east ras e c •* Cur fellows howeter, rowed up in ki te 0 . it, h ood d J ci t ,. liv e o , eium. e her sword in hand, e.xaelly t 4 etre t l y or`),tand carried her in five minutes. th,citt ae4 4101 e) but it iS an liana lad, that 114,f,badje"„%ec_°nd Captains were shot through it i i i ‘ t i. but the":_4PPearing dead were thrown ove . r. littottlite sieoe74oevt: adfterwards Picked up aga i r i n c; hotettaltn, who wtre re b ,tuas have also thre e . o i t 1 / 4 , 01 ed o i, for a y wounded. Provit ence , 4 1 n it h ,we had only one. man slightly cut .:blurt; hic3iirki., Small as this vessel wa s her ti t i t ; - • !aut o i ro " 1 3 a very gallant business, may n t to it portance than at first sight appears to 1 !il s ' -' la b was in 411 1 , ten fi re sPeftt a small man of.war, and , qtr 4;tokettted far :tit t:hiti,t4rintatuto the purpose Of landing three end,tavour to stir up the Mali -311 her ti '''e vie f e l l . war ., They had been put on s, reN ro , in w it h the vessel, anti she was ettio With d• . ;0,„, 4 4' 4 , IspatCnes, Which were thrown litvt'it). a " were towing towards her. Our Ni t ,' 3 Ino n a } I. . Pon w. 3 he nd what business they hurl 4 -c 1 1111 Ili,: vs-u,l Al •. ' ' and - ' :t I ' to se ;.',ix) at „ff. amvity zeal in the ~ aitari..t. expresses in various direnions, hY '- tll, z . }l ; ,"le three ► 014cer4 old iiteli Dispatches 4t qQOOII.I. ,bri‘ t r rips- Vet ) b Oll w'• . . . 1 *,. DUBLIN, FO' ",-- - - . .. STERDAY,.bairtithe day.iPpoitiie4 . ftir the cc le ra tion of 1-litt,lVlAtesTx'a Birth-Day ,at Dub. t liti . Caatle, the ,same was ~Observed with "the usual deo l onstrations of ,joy—the usual morning being uslitr: 7 ed; in with,,the ringing, of Bells, the Union I+la g mounted on Bedford Tower, a grand 'salute fired by 4 the great gurni , in Phccnix Park, and a vat) , of small antis by the Militail , drawn up in the Royal Barracks. At three o'clock there was a Levee .at the Castle, at which was perfirmed an Ode, and was numerously attended. In the even. ink Their . Excellencies the. Lord Lieutenant and Countess of.l-lAitowtcxs gave a Ball and Supper, at which the piincipal Nobility and gentry in town attended. The tables, as usual, abounded with every thing the season airbrds ; and the company, which was numerous, did not separate until a late hour this morning. Yesterday the Commission Couir, from the sit ting at eleven o'cleck until its rising at eight at night, was occupied in the trial of a very respect able Gentleman, Mr. GINALD BYRNE, an At torney, of the County Louth, upon an indiet ment preferred against him by Messrs. GODBY, SCOTT' M'Evov, and Roatas, of Dundalk, for wilful, corrupt, and malicious perjury. Mr. Lot. ittilil-rorr stated the case on the part of the Crown ' at great length, and produced his evidences. Mr. EGAN stated the case on the part of the Defendant, and examined his witnesses i many of the most re. speCtable characters Of this Country, among whom were John Ball, Esq. the Barrister, Rev. Dr. Ban. bury, Rental. of the Parish near the Traverser's re. sidence, gave testimony of the most upright, cot red, and unblemished reputation of his general charaeler. The evidence being closed upon both sides, Baton GEORGE charged the Jury with preci. Lion, and pertinent legal observations, who,•without quitting the Box, delivered a verdia of Na Guilty. A trial has been depending between Mr. Dunn and the Commercial Insurance Company, in the Court of King's Bench, for four days successively, which was of very considerable importance. It was an action to recover robot. insured on the life of a person ; and . the points at issue were, whe ther the warranty of health was true, and whether there was any concealment which viciated the Po. licy ? Atter occupying the time of the Court, and a Special Jury, the whole of Friday, Saturday, and :Monday, and until two o'clock on Tuesday, • the Jury then withdrew, and between six and ' seven o'clock in the evening returned a verdict for the 1 Plainta. There hss hem much anticipation respelling Mr. SHER IDAN% Speech on the present state of our Mili tant' Defence. Thh. approaching Speech, according to many preainions, is to abound in wit and humour. When Mr. Sit RIDADI CtIII,ES to indulge his fancy, it cannot be doubted that there will be no want of wit and humour in what he may say. But Mr. SHERIDAN is not With= political discretion, as well as wit and humour, and he has such a recent example of unseasonable gaiety upon the subject, in Mr. WINDHAM, that it is to be ex. peeled he will conduct himself in a manner suit. able to the weight and importance of that sub. jed a if he should really persevete in bringing for ward a discussion of it. In a Letter which was received on Siturday from Gutfogey, by the Brilliant, arrived at Sbuthampton, it is stated, that a Privateer of that Island fell in with a French Squadron of six or seven vessels in lit. 39, that they were then standing to the S.S.W. under an easy sail, and that two days after she spoke an American, off Oporto, the Master of which said he had been boarded by a French line-of-battle Ship, and ordered away from Lisbon, which had been his place .of destination. The inhabitants of Norwich are highly elated at the dignity conferred upon their late revered Prelate, no previous instance having occurred of a Bishop of Norwich having been , raised to the dignity of the Primacy. , It however, appears, that in the earlier ages of Christianity, and previous to the foundation of the Cathedral Church of Norwich, STZGAXD, Bishop of the East Angles, was, in the. year lop, promoted to that elevated station by King EDWARD the Confessor. STMAND was a Saxon by descent, but is supposed to have been a native of Norwich, by the large temporal possessions he held in that City till his deprivation by WILLIAM the Con.. queror. Wm.—The annual Concert, for the benefit of the Musical Fund, took place last night at the King's Theatre. The chief Vocal Peformera were GRASSINI, BRAHMA. and Miss TRICIANT, 'and Mr. MILLAR, from Bath. GRASSINI, for the first time, employed her voice with English worth, and sung " He was Detpited," with great pathos and expression. She also sung an Italian air, and joined BRAHMA in a duo with great raft. BRA. HAM gave his " Death of Atercrombie," in a very affeting manner. Mr. MILLAR possesses a fine manly voice, and deserves the favour of the Public. His " Honour and Arst," a Concerto on the Violin, was admirably performed by a Mr. Buttc e R. LINDLRY powerfully supported the general treat by his performance on the Violoncello. The Chorusses went off with precision and energy, and the Band was most ably led by CrtAms X. The Concert was well attended. The Musical Farce which is forthcoming at Co vent-Gardan Theatre, under the whimsical title of Out of Plact, is the produftion of Mr. RE YNOLDS. Another successful trial was lately made at Gene. ral MONEY's, of tl►e newly invented Artillery. wagon, with the horses in the carriage, who stood perfedly steady during the discharge a the field. piece. Two men were severely hurt during the last week in attempting to pass the iron bridge at Wapping, before it was properly closed, after yes. sels passing from the docks. Saturday sennight a loft or chamber over the dairy adjoining the dwelling-hou s e occupied by Major RuctuY, situate at the botton ct Barkby_ lane, in Leicester, was bloke open, and sundry artielei stolen thereout. The villains were not content willt taking away the . things,. but 'br o k e a large quant i ty o f new orthenware which wits in the LAW AEPCPT. i• • COURT OF KI-I,7's. rEtletr, Movrs:ot, Fel. 25. strtzt•ics Loßn nr.L-ENsctoucu•Atat srze:AL JURY, IN wx.zimr;:tz.it-LALL. ItIIpDLES E X ELECTION. AN INDIC,TNIEIN:T FOR, PER URY -UPON A FALSE VO t 0 It SIR F. BUR thirls. *tit KING v. WILLIAM JENKINS, 061 r-wise called WILLIAM The SOLICITOR GENERAL opened the case for the Prosecution to, the following effed :—" You have heard, Gentlemen, from the opening of the In. didment, that the crime imputed to the Prisoner is Perjury at the late Eledion for the County of Mid. dlesex. That he • took the Freeholders oath, by which he swore, that he was a Freeholder in this County, and by, which he was received as a Voter at the Eledion ; whereas, in truth, he had no right to vote. I believe, though it does not make a part of this case, although some of it Must necessarily be made out in evidence, that there was established a regular manufadocy for pteparing in London fit - ti. .tious votes, and which were sent, day by day, and hour by hour, fresh from the manufadory, to Brent. ford, to poll for Sir Francis Burdett. • I understand,. that they amount, in all, to about two, or, perhaps, three hundred, thirty of whom only are indictable. The riled of this practice, if it were to sttccecd, would he, that the sense of the real Freeholders "would be borne .down by the greater number of shadows that were intruded upon the poll in the name of Freeholders. It is not• necessary for me to lay before you the enormity of that offence—it violates our deareat rights; it'destroys the Freedom of Eledion, for the obyl!1 of our law is to send to Parliament those only who have been eledetl by the People. The efred of this praCtice is obvious, and upon which it is unnecessary that I should dwell ; but I shall enter, at present, into the particulars of the proof against this particular offender. I think he gave his vote on the second day of the Medical. Whether he endeavoured to put himself forward on any other occasion, I am not aware ; but, on the second day, he polled in the name of William Prince, of No. i 6, Tower.strect, St. Mar. tin's-lane, for a freehold. house in the occupation of Edward Gritt. It will be proved to you, that Jen. kins, the Defendant, had no freehold in this place; that he was no Freeholder at all; though the house for which Ile voted was adually in the occupation of Grist; and when this is proved to your satisfaction, I have no doubt you will find the Defendant guilty. With regard to the punishment which ought to be inflieted on him, that is not for your consideration, for that is a matter to be hereafter decided upon by the Court." Mr. Sudlow and Mr. Gordon, the Under Sheriffs, proved the regular forms of opening the Poll, and of swearing their Inferior Officers to the due execution of their duty, and of those Officers having perform. ed their duty under their orders, and constant in., apeCtion anti superintendanee„ Thomas Madding,.—" I attended as Poll Clerk at the Elation. On the 23d of July last I was sworn in, in the WestmiosteteDivision, pre vious to the commencement of the poll; Here is the entry of the poll, in which is the freeholder's name first ; then his place of abode; then the situ ation of the freehold ; then the occupation of it; and, lastly, the name of the candidate for whom the eleetor polls. Under the place for the freeholder's name is William Prince ; under his place of abode is written No. 16, Tower.strect, Seven Dials, in the Parish of St. Giles's in the Fields ; under the place for the freehold is entered " Stone Cutter's. alley, St. Martin's-hle, in the Parish of St. Mar tin in the Fields, in the use and occupation of Ed. ward Gritr, and he polled for Sir F. Burdett. I do not know of one instance of a person voting in that Eledion who did not take the Oath of the Freeholder. I happened to - take notice of the per. son who voted for this place, on account of a doubt i n th e mind of one of the Inspectors, I think that of Mr. Mainwaring, whether there was such a place as Stone Cutter's.alley. The fact being as. certained, the person who tendered himself to vote was admitted to poll. I had, therefore, an oppor tunity to see him. I saw him afterwards in the King's Bench Prison; I believe he is the same per. son who polled as I have stated ; but it would be go i n g farther than I wish to do to say that positive. then pointed out the Defendant in Court, an d declared he believed he was the person who polled for the above place. Richard llarford, one of the Inspenors for Mr. mainwaring, at the 'Westminster Booth, at the last Eledion, swore—" I was there when a person poll. ed in the name of William Prince. When he pre sented himself to vote I immediately asked if he was of age, and, to the best of my recollection, an InsPeetor, on behalf of Sir F. Burdett, said, gf That is the oath ; you have no occasion to put the goes. tion." Prince, the voter, said—" I am age!" Ile then proceeded to state his freehold,. and the tuation of it, and he voted. I saw him this morning at a public-house, in company with the Tipstsif, hut never before since the Eledion ; I knew him di. redly." 'This Witness also pointed out the person of the Defendant in Court. Philip Prince, of No. 16, Tower.street, SeVen Dials,sworn—ii I know the Defendant, jenkini,und have known hint for some years. He lodged in my house. ' I saw him on the day an which he polled at Brentford. It was ott the second day of the poll, or the third. I went with him. I will not be (Tr. rain of the day. I was there but one day. I went , with him, and William Jenkins, his brother. He said he wag going to Brentford to 'work. I under. stood perfatly what he meant. He said he was going to Brentford to, work, and in thy name. I saw him go in at the poll.gate with Watson and Steward.— He told me afterwards what work ht' had done. He said he had tivorked in my name, and that his freehold was at Gritt's house, whom I knew well. Jenkins is a shoemaker, and used to work for me. He could not mean to (work at Brentford at his trade. He had no lilt. He told the he had worked in my name, and that his freehold was at Gritt's.". Cross. Examined by Mr. CLIFFOItb..---FiC -1214% " I attended the I lustings afterwards to prevent the fiditinus voters from polling. I went down - with Jenkins, when he witr going to vo:c ; L iyaa not • then engaged an the poll s : . j. VrV, flat' jr; wehtivith the Dofenda:nt's -Ct . i was played to procure fiaitiou:voters. eL did test see the Ddintlant 0014 but he t:-,!ct me, that he had plied in my panic, and ;that his Freehold, was Grim tiotoel I imierstand thpt he wa:, paid fgr c a guninea and a half; but I did not .lee him receive the money. did not o+o to his ustr. , , - ,v my naniz., He told ma if .I would go with him to the to try cyget the money, he wotild pay me what I advanced to him. It was, the Giohe, at He was to go to the COliffl;tteC to see if he tot 14 rzleet with Thomas Grimsley, 'a person whom, said, had been employed with his brother. They were ,in partnership together to colteet those votes., He said; if he could see Grimsley he should get tte money. What he was to get I,do not know but, to the best of my knowledge, he told `me a guinea and an !Aalf." Q. Did he ever sty to you afterwards any thing about the manner in which he had done it ? A. Y,7s I heard him say, in company with Thos. Grimsky, that he had done it in prime twig, and Watson w.o at his elbo*. The other told him he was a fool, or made use of Borne such expression ; for that Watson was of the other partY. . John Hunter, Esq. said, that he hai , pened by or., cident to come into Court as he was returning honir„ having been in attendance on the Committee of 11 e Middlesex Ele6tion, which had broken up fur the day. He knew the Defendant immediately, having seen him at the Hustings ; and remembered observ ing to Mr. Main Waring's Inspenor, that the person could hardly be of age. He saw him frequently at the Hustings during the . Election ; knew him per. fedly ; should have known him instantly in the street ; believed he attempted to poll twice, but ‘'vas not Sure. The house in Stnne.ciitter.streetwas proved to - ha the property, not of William Pri nce, hiit of the Mercer's Company. Erasmus Gritt proved, that he lived in the above house; and. that neither William Prince. nor W.l. llama Jenkins had any thing to do with it; Mr. ERSK 1 xr made an elegant speech fir the De,. fendant, in which lie.submitted, that, indeyendenc of Philip Prince, there was no evidence of the id , .!ntiry of the Defendant before he was impri4oned ; and - then the witnesses 9poke . from the impression of I:nowi , ig that he was the accused party ; and that gave them 4 brief which it was unsafe foz theta • tra,t , r6. A 3 to Mr. Hunter, who is m:)st indisrutable a man of honour, Mr. EttsturrE said, he was not originally a luminary of our system; he comes into our orbit irregularly, like a comet, whose extreme hat is IA vilify my poor Client. Bat for the accident of the the Middlesex: Committee not sitting, we should . not have had the honour: of that Gentleman's- pre. Renee. He thought evidence of this kind was t oo conclusive to act upon in a Court of Justice. Ute , perfectly agree etuith Mr. Erskine, that Mr, Ifmnier • is most indiqutably ?rum of bono.rer, as), that ira the fireient instance. be herr disdiarpel bit dill) like a mate of hozvir,]--A:t to the evicince, of Philip Prince, he laid it entirely out of the question, because he was to be considered in a w:irse than that of an accomplice in tile crime invated to the Defendant, by going down with him to Brent. ford, allowing him to use his name, ex. lie th,.ugla the indiament defetitive in the maoner ofdescribing the Defendant's name, &c. ; anti concluded with expressing hi . s con v thnt Ohl ad,nimstry _...,.. of be better pr<►tet'Zetl by suffering this '‘ Defendant to escape, as his ease was doubttul, dun by oonviaing him on evidence that was inconciu. si ve, which might lay down a precedent to endanger innocence. LOU/ELLE NUOROUGEI observed, that the I)2fenti. ant had the benefit of consummate abilities in his defence; but the question was, " Whether theevi. dence fur the prosecution was satisfietory as to t!..; identity of the Defendant ?" Upon which his Lord. ship was so far from entertaining a doubt, that he hardly thought it possible to bay what evidence would be sufficient to support any crinainal- proseco. tion if this was not so. Here Was clear evidence' of the Defendant's identity by three witnesses, and of his having polled fur a place of whichhe w a s nor a Freeholder. As to the witness Prince, he did not see that he had been guilty of any thing more than misprison of the offence of which the Defendant had been guilty. 1k was not to be considered in the light of an accomplice ; he was not, indeed, a very delicate man , or one of high sense of honour ; but still, there was nothing irs proof to render Urn infainout. The case Was, there. fore, made out against the Defendant as much as the law required,, always . remembering that at in this case. nothing was oppiped to the evidence for the prosecution, presumptive evidence, unless there was something co.oppot,e ir, was conclosive, the very definition of presumptive evidence was that to which nothing was opposed, and it was tunefu s lv! ! unless opposed by something elqe----'‘,l9,itre iirobt,fue calftearbm," Was the definition ef, T resiiinptiVe evidence; and here it was COriCitiji ; accouri:t of its not being opposed by any,osh.r As .to tlte. indiOment, the descript: n tl the De'. Pendant .was cln;my certainly ; he did nor say it was defediee, certainly nor so delefflve as to inak'e. him stop the ease; but 'if Mr, thougfit rite objetlion was snlid, he sfinuld Wave an oiTcreireity of moving an arrest of jddgment. The Deferdant, was .then found Giat.y." LYI/61 MACNA:4AIk A. This , was:an Adinn C,f Slander brought by . the Plaintiff, an Officer in the. Life Guatds, C rain Maenitmata ; of the N.! vy, I..ir slAndeton rd ; 'tie captain Ita%ing publicly said; that he wAs scoundrel, ands that he would shake his hots-c.w:sirt over non wnenever be met .hlin. iew , s-crienre of which; the Plaintiff' 'not having rests It in the usual manner, umn These provocations, Hi Btother Officers,had reftp,ied to mount au,rd with he was so Much" negleded, that at last he i, Loud it necessary to retire frt'tn ;tic military stath.n. Ile laid his &images_ for this wool. injury at 001. A Witness being called who proved the wmie. Lord ELLErIiOROUGH iut,erpo_ed, anti wished this dispute could be at adjusted ; c 4elt , ,g what dangerous consequences these at titer* led, • i , e earnestly wished the-Counsel on both htdes