The Sun. — London, England, 1812-07-14 00:00:00

^:.~ '}~~ the lawyers he conversed with on the v.-as eNirelv unknown to them.. question for the, second reading of the lighways Bill, a conversation took place, :11,.n Earls of Lauderdale, Radnor, Hard ,ovds Elliot and RedeSdale participated. :nentioned.Peer moved, that the Bill be read a second time that day three months, which -s-, , as'neatiied without a 'division, and the Is read a second time, and committed for : • 1 11 - 1 IN" Ti; J.% Bill r,-; AritI.I.A'NTJURISDICTION ANIS COURT OF CHAN CERY BILL. Lord ItE.DESDALE moved - the ,consideration of the Report Of this Bill, and took the' occasion to express his surprise that he ,had . been previously called on to assign the ground 4 upon which he proposed the Bill to the House. He then stated that it was originally founded on a report of their Lordships' COmmittee on the .subject, made so far Imek as May 1811, and adverted to a variety of .considerations, more Allan once . previously ana ably urged by -his Lordship,' to , spew that the great accumulation of Appeals in that House, and the vast increase of the business, of late years especially, in the COUrt of Chancery, rendered it necessary that,,an Assistant should be appointed to the Lord Chancellor;•in the transaction of the business•-of. his peculiar Court, in order to enable him to devote an adequate portion of. his time to, the assisting in-the hearing of, and deciding upon . Appeals, as 'Speaker'of their Lordships' House; an ani,Ligement .partieularly recommended by the report, and of the necessity of which all theie . LOrdships must long since have been convinced. The Noble and Learned Lord concluded by mov ing a verbal aritendinent -or two in the second, clause of the Bill. These, after a few words from Earl of Radnor were adopted. • The Lo ari • CITANCELLOIt, in an argumentative and forcible speech,expressed his full coneurrezice in every thing that had been adVanced by his INTo bre and Learned Friend, and said thA be was con scious that when lie was dead and gone, the 'sub jects of the country would be of opinion 'that a measure of the most salutary and satisfactory na ture that could be adopted would be one which tended to bring their appeals to that House.„_and their suits' in the, Court of Chancery, to a speedy decision... His Lordship then adverted to. some de6ilc.l considerations of the practice of the Court. of Chancery, in illustration of the subject to . the Bill referred, and to evince the „necessity of its .adoption :—lt was riot the visible occupations of the Chancellor, be ' observed, that Were to be alone considered. He Must give his days, his hours, and his nights to the consideration. of his duties, and even in the retirement of his house, and the privacy of his closet, if he nieant to do justice. And a consci entious attention to the cases of those capital ma . lefactors which lay before the Crown, with refe- rence to a mercifid administration of justice, not a little enhanced the anxious labours of the high judicial officer in -question ; and the Noble and _Learned Lord added a variety of other observa tions, all tending to evince not only the necessity, but even the justice to the subjects of the country, of the adoption'of a measure of the kind. The. Report being agreed to by their Lord ships, the Bill was ordered to be engrossad, and the House, at half-past Seven o'clock, adjourned till to-morrovv. JIOUSE OF COMMONS, MoNnAY. The further considefation of du: Report of the Frame-work Knitters. Bill was postponed ,morrow. • 7 A : numbc? of Petitions- from different places were•presented by various Members against the Nightly 'Watch Bill, all of which were ordered to lie , on the - After-4 few -.words between Mr. Wharton and -Mr..Patteson, on the Malt Regulatioa Bill, in .which Mr. Patteson recommended sixty Pours for •the time of steeping, which was at last fixed at :fifty-live hours. He did not expect much good from the Bill, bet thought it would be better to Anerease the salaries of the Excise Of/leers, to se , cure.them against the great temptations they were . exposed to by fraudulent dealers. '!'he Bill was, then read a third time and passed. , The-.Artny Prize Money Bill, and the Life An :unity-Mill were read a third time and passed. An Account was brought in of various sums ez. pended erecting Light-houses in different parts of •the,Kingclom.—Ordered to lie on the table. The.third reading of. the Inclosure Affidavit Bill eras postponed till to-morrow. VOTE OF CREDIT. The CHANCELLOR of the Excitzaur.R brought down the following Message : G. P. R. " The Prince Regent, in the name and on the behalf of his Majesty, considering the'very great importance of affairs, and the necessity of providing for such emergencies as may arise,. and relying on the zeal and affectionate experience of his faithful Commons, recommends to the House to take such rm.a.snres as may tend to disappoint and defeat the enttrprizes design. 4 of the Enemy, and as the exigencies oCaffairs may ri•gttire." The lles4age was ordered to be taken into con sideration to-morrow. ConsOlidated Fund Bill, the Manure Car riage Bill, the Warehousing Bill, the Isle of San Trade Bill, and the Smuggling Bill, went through Committees, the Reports of which were ordered to be received to-worr4w. The Report of the StOne Bottle. Duty Bill was brought tip and agreed to, and. the Br It orciered to I,)c read third time to-morrow. Tne Irish Roads Bill was ordered to be read a third time this day three months. Toe Committees on the. Coffee Bill, and the Ex port of Sugar Bill, postponed till to-morrow. A Message from the Lords announced their Lorchltips' assent to several Bills. PRIVY PURSE. The CHANCELLOR of the ~ EXCHEQUER moved for leave to bring in a fill to enable the Keeper of the Privy Purse to transfer certain property of Majesty, vested in the public Funds. The ebjeet of the Bill was to authorise the Commit ..-)riers to distribute certain portions of the mo allotted to the Privy Purse, in the manner ,formable with the Royal inclination. 'after some few obsersiations from Mr. Tierney, Simeon, Mr. Brougham, and the Chancelica of the. Excheitier, 1, - , , -ivea to Ming itt the Bill. FINANCE. Mr. TIERIEY gave notice, that he should, on Wednesday, submit certain Financial Resolutions,. differing from. those proposed _by zyPir T. Turton and the Chancellor of the Exellßucr,.rneaniurfo take another view of the sithitot: The CUANCELLOR CUANCELLOR of the-ExcHEqutu hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would pia. hiM in posses sion of the substance .of his intended Resolu tions, before the day for taking them into consi deration. . _i. • Mr. Massy replied that he wotild. j MR. F;TZPATRICX. Mr. SHERIDAN ' rose to put a question to the Noble Lord (Lord Castlereagh) respecting a pro secution carrying on , against • a Printer in Ire land, named Fitzpatriek, for, publishing a pam phlet, called " .&:Statement of Acts affecting the Roman Catholics.'.? He wished to know whe ther the pros.ecutiOn•vras authorized by the Eng lish Government, or had been instituted by the Crown Lawyers in Ireland..? He. asked this in the absence of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pole) who had tendered his resignation. Ile, thought it necessary,th be known, where therespousibi lity for advising. such a. prosecution rested. After all that had been said about the necessity fOr con ciliation, not expect such prosecution . ,Could be countenanced by the Government. There tni6ht be .libellous matter in 7 illePamphlet, but when the Penal Laws remained! still unrepealed, it was not extraordinary that the Catholics should wish to know the extent and, amount of those laws. He understood the - pamphlet was the work ofl a Learned Gentleman in Ireland. He hoped he should be allowed to move for a Copy of the Notice of ProSecution given to Mr. ritz p,attick by the CroWn Solicitors for his, appear ance at -the house : -. of Mr. Saurin, the Attorney- General. The Right Hon. Gentleman then moved for the Copy, &c. Lord • C:4,4,I4:REAGH wished the Right 'lon. Gentltman to give notice of his motion, as he was quite uninformed upon the subject, and in the absence of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Pole) it could not be, surely, the wish of the Right Hon. Gentleman to press it. Mr. SHERIDAN consented •to postpone the mo tion till to-morrow. 11K.•PALMEICS CLAIM EL Colonel PALMER stated that sonAemisapprchen sion had gone forth respecting the liOility.of Mr. Palmer to pay, the property. Tax under the Bill, granting him compensation for his services. He had the fullest authority to state, . that - should there be any doubt upon the liability, he could bring in a Bill to remove such doubt, as-Mr. Palmer had no wish to shrink from the payment of any taxi THE PUBLIC PEACE. Lord CASTLEREAGH moved the second reading of the Bill for the better preservation of the rub- Peace through Out the kingdom. Mr. WHITBREAD objected to the second read ing of the Bill, on the ground that it proceeded upon false enactments. The Bill stated, " that arms were industriously concealed:" • There was no 'evidence before the House of Commons to prove that allegation, and the only evidence be fore the Committee was documentary, derived from certain Magistrates, • .who had.reeeived'ario nymons information to that effect. Those very Magistrates were in such a state of consternation, that their evidence could not be depended upon. From the whole of their conduct, there was no ground 'to suppose that the laws in, force had been vigorously executed. According to the evidence, -they in some instances acted with supineness ; in others, they exhibited symptoms of violence, and_ perverted judgment. There was no evidence down to Friclay.last, the day on which this Bill was in troduced, ; the country was not in a tranquil state. The Bill went on further - to state, " that Meetings were held by night and by day." The Committee had not one tittle of evidence to' bear out this allegation. The Noble Lord had stated the other night, in respect to this part of the Bill, that seven hundred per Sons weie assembled, he believed, near Ashton-under-Line. He (Mr. W.) bad heard from another quarter, three hundred ; -- but supposing the former number bad assembled, that did tiotquaktl out the allegation that they met by night and by day, for they assembled, accord ing to the Noble Lord, at church time. The whole of the' enactments were objectionable ;. and that in particular which gave authority to the Ma gistrates to act out'of their - own precincts. Tile Hon. Gentleman again condemned the system of, spies, and adverted to what fallen from the Mem ber for Yorkshire on the former night, when the Hon. Member ascribed these outrages as originat ing in libellous and seditious publications. Mr. - Whitbread denied that the origin was any other than the Otders in Council : the cause of the evil was now removed by the revocation of those Or ders—the men found employment, and were trans quil. It had been stated, too, that these outrages Were directed by men of high condition., nay, he had the affidavit of a man tried at Lancaster; to shew that a Magistrate had come to him in the prison, with a view to extort from the *Criminal a confession that he (Mr. Whitbread) was the very person who instigated the riots What was-the fact ? Why that some of these urea being lineup, ployed, wrote to hini, asking his. advice, whether they should petition Parliament ; and, in answer, he wrote them word that he 'thought they had better state the cause of their grievances.-- , This letter was made the ground of presump tion, that he was at the head of the rioters.— So besotted Was the imagination of some of the alarmists, that an idle ramour for-some time ob tained credit, that the Duke of York was about to advocate the cause of these deluded people.— Would the House beliete that so ridiculous a sup position could eater into the heads of any re spectable set of met? These things, however, made him cote to the conclusion not to grant • the Magistracy any of the powers provided in this Bill. A Magistrate who had beard Oat a man of respectability in his county was named in the Committee as one of the instigators of the riots, though not before suspected, took "occasion to promulgate his name throughout the cdinity— this person was a Pretbyterian. -The HOnourable Gentleman could not avoid entering his protest against the Bill, when he saw the operation of of the Orders h Co - uncil---tbat the potteries were fully employed, that the men were returning to their work contented and—heppy, and. that Nottingham and other places .were.aiso 4raminil, should therefore take the sense of the House upon it, though he did .not expect to make'much impression. He then took occasion to recommend to his Majesty's Ministers to take this opportunity of ascertaining whether peace could flat be made upon honourable terms. He thought this a most favourable opportunity:— Sooner, however, than make peace on any other than honourable terms, he would risk the ekter:- mination of the notish Empire. He knew that if the Manufacturer/were ,copyineed that the de lay in making peace was not the fault of. GoVern ment, but of the enemy, they would sit doWn contented under 4all their sufferings. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wilberforce) ,stniled at what he said; he hoped it Was not the smile of disb:'lief. ( N 6 ! Laid Mr. Wiltelforce).-----He must again re peat, that it was the bounden duty of Ministers to make an attempt to procure a general peace for theworld. He never knew a time mom - proiitious than the present. fie would not ask of the Noble Lord the nature of the communication madeSOMC time since from France, but - he had / heard that_the French Government, offered terms for peace.-- Thaesbewed the disposition of the enemy, and the necessity, of the repose of Europe justified the experiment. He trusted it,would be tried: Mr. SMITH supported the Bill, and wished to state the gronrids'of his vote, because he was con- neeted by residence to that part of _the country . where it particularly applied. • He wished that the Report of the Secret Committee had, been ac companied by large extracts, so as to have en abled Geatlemciap judge' of'the necessity of this strong meaauret isinothing bet an over-rnling Cessity could justify its adoption. He.could state, - from his own knowledge, that the cause for alarm - excited in the , West. Riding of Yorkshire, had been ,understeted rather than overstated..--(ei cry of hear, hear ) 7 - 7 -Tl:se Report in sithstance -was coreeet, but with 'respect to the distresses in the panufacturing districts, in some degreelhOse dis tresses • certainly arose from the \val . ; bat he should be Concealing, a main feature of the origin of, the disturbanCes, if he did not say they. bore the character: of a systematic, political opposition to the Government, to. order, and to the laws, and a desire to attack prOperty. The distress in trade had 'afforded, a Olden opportunity to the lovers of discord to erect their Standard ; they knew they could only arrive at the top of their object by cir culating puNications 'condemning all pubic men, and reflecting upon the Government. There was no man less anxious to stop the liberty of the press than himself; but if that liberty was used licentionsly, then it becamethe Government to use legal means to curb it., It was necessary to form a good and strong Government. What -he meant by a good Government was, .that descrip tion of Government which would not give to the people a pretext for reasonable complaint, and by a strong Government s he meant strength to resist unreasonable clamour. It was a matter on which be could noepossibly determine; whether Govern- ment had used all the measures in their power to repress these discontents.. With the Secrets Ser - vice Money, and with the other means in their possession, they might perhaps have been able to apprehend the disturbers of the public peace, without having recourse to any additional legisla tive provision. But circumstanced as affairs now were, a legislative provision appeared to him to afford the only reasonable chance of remedying the existing disorders. lie trusted, however, that the two following .principles would nit be lost sight of—first, that the enactments of the Bill should be temporary, and for the shortest time that the necessity of the case would admit; se condly, that-no more power should be given to the Magistrates than was indispensable to the at tainment of the object in view; the House alwayS bearing in mind, that what was added to the au- thority of the 'Magistracy was deducted from. the liberty of the subject. In this view of the questi on, he certainly entertained objections to that part of the Bill which Went to compel all indivi duals, willing or unwilling, to surrender their arms to the-demand of two Magistrates ; this pro e -vision appeared. to overstep the necessity of the • case, and the 'consequences ,might be - very injuri .ous.- To that enactment of the Bill, by which - those who assembled -tumultuary meetings were Made guilty -of misdemeanours, he had nq objec tion' whatever. He thought it an act of human lay thus to avert the improper course of these de - laded -persons, before they. plunged deeper into . guilt,- and subjected themselves- to more condign punishment. For the concurrent_ jurisdiction to -to he given by the Bill to the Magistrates of the disturbed counties, he also heartily assented. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by apologising for having so- long occupied the attention of the House'. 'He hat] thrown out what had - occurred to to him with respect to the proposed measure, and would cheerfully subscribe to whatever might be the determination of Parliament upon it.- - Mr. M. FITZGEitALD. observed, that those who gave credit to the testimony borne by the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down to the state of •the country, and to the consternation excited by the late . tumults, could not concur with the Hon.. Gentleman who had preceded him; in the opinion , that the pieamble of the-Bill was false, and that the Inevure itself Was colluded on the-assumption of a necessity which did not really exist. The long, extraordinary, and he must be allowed to say, ineonchisive speech, of the HonourableMem ber for Bedford, contained only two arguments against the Bill, That- Hon. Gentleman's objects Con to giving an extended power to the Magi stracy in general, -.was grounded on the 'ilia . :conduct of individual Magistrates. The Ho nourable Gentleman stated, that a Magi strate had entered the cell of a convicted person--(Mr. Whithiead, across the table, denied - having said it was a' Magistrate who had done this) , —lf not a Magistrate the argument of the Ilork Gent. was still more inconclusive than he imagined. What! because an ordinary indivi dual had attempted to- extort from a convicted per son • evidienee - against the lion. Gentleman—an occurrence 'indeed of too despicable a nature to have even been mentioned in that House—was the Hon. Gentleman justified in asserting that the pdscer of the Magistracy ought not to be ex tended ? The Hon. Gentleman had also cho3e9 to refer to the manner in which a polder similar to that conferred by this Bill had been exercised in Ireland. But it would have been fair had the lion. Gentleman-recollected the state of Ireland at that period. That acts of horror had been com mitted in that country, he (Mr. F.) would not dens. I\lo one, not even .the Hon. Gentleman , could suspect him of beroming the :apologist of such acts. But the circumstances of the two countries were widely different. And with re spect to the Insurrection Laws 111 Ireland, it wrtri well known, that they expiied in two years after the union, and that they had not been acted upoli. But was the necessity for their existence less be cause they had not been enforced ?----He wou=ld not follow the Hon. Gentletnan through the ex; traneous parts of his *tell. If the subject 0 1 peace had any cotinc.i.ion With the question he.- fore the douse, it was all's only;---that it was a subject which he should ,have thou . ght on scicll t 1 occasion every Hon. Member would wish to avcia. Coinoious, as every man in that Hou, excerl: the lon. Gentleman, must be, that peace on ho noui.able terms could not be obtained at the pie' sent moment, he was peranaded that no one but the Hon. Gentleman would 'have adverted too the topic'; although he was glad to bear the HO 3 . Gentleman dee ' lare, that, Unless on proper and ha nourable ternis,‘peaceoutOt not to be concludelL Adverting to, the oberyations made by the Hon s . Gentleman who spdke last, he observed, that the temporary nature of the Bill suet the ideas of O HOn..Gentleman, andas to th e2llOn.Gentlenian' 3 objections to the proVigiOnly which the Magis - , trates were empowered to search fOr arms, it on ;lit . to be recollected that in times`of danger the con" venience; and even the - ordinary rights of', indivi duals', must be made -tti bend to the public: safety „He concurred in the opinion of the Hon. Meriiber for Bedford, thaf his opposition to the Bill would not inake.miieb impression on the • Mouse or 0 0 the Country, and lie trusted that the Hon. Goat,: would concurwith him in the hope that the "nu might be effectual in the uttaii'unent of tile object . for which it was iatroductd:• Sir F. BURDETT denied that the speech o f thi-'- iion.Gentleman who had - just spoicen, had at 1 01 - 'shaken the arguineuts of the Hon. Gentlenian hicii(gr. Whitbread) 11Ce - Coipfirred with tL" 1: Hon. Gentleinan in thining that theee was 14G -- thing in the evidence before the Honse which wo rantec..3 the recital in the 'preamble, or which j(ls tified the necessity of the bill Even the tie of the Bill was defective. instead of 't a Bill to preserez!' - t.',ie peace," it ought tin be termed " 7 Bill to disturb the peace, - by gi'Ong undue Fewer to the Magistracy."He though' the Magistrates had already, in many cases, bited great violence and intemperance, and I' particularly reprobated the st stem of employi6s spies to Stir up, and entrap, and bring . to purnsi a- . meat the 'unhappy people. This Was -a „53tcat worthy of the Devil alone. It was 'whimsical to hear the Hon. Gentleman below him (Mr. SP.;ithi. talk of the necessity of a stronger Goc. , erninc lft-- What Government 'could he stronger than . o '7 which carried all before - it; and a: , Tinsv -6°s'l will the laws of the realm, and the rights and Fr' - , vileges of the subject were unable to stand ? was no reason to suppose that the existing of the Magistrates was insufficient to 5..“3p-n'a riots and diaturbances, which it was confessed themselves on the decline, and he therefore ed with great jealousy, and great apprehen,ipei°, abuse, the increase of authority proposed o`.. given. Even the Magistrate's present power too frequently abused. It was lately at'at.ed 111 t h e papers, that two young men, who had been Nv (3l- m 'a ; g athouse in the country, and whO had the r ' by become acquainted with the servants; vr c ''' 4 some, time afterwards., as they were a a11 03 . ; in the neighbourhood, invited into the f i nTe by the servants. They were there found by,t" master, who was very angry oil the occas n l: but who, not contenting himself with a r e p t :, mand, took them before a clerical Magistrate or the neighbourhood, who committed these' honest labouring men to gaol for burglary ! happened in the month Of August, just after `I ; Assizes The men remained ironed in ,stone e e until one of them died, and when a Bill was seated' to the Grand Jury against the other; next spring, the Grand Jury immediately thr e f e ' a out.. This was not a solitary instance— . aIo W A case had occurred, in which an individual,l!`")l, been-treated in a • similar manner, and in wr- l h c ia the result had , been ,precisely the same: , 13 opinion, therefore, it would better tend to serve the peace,' were the power of the l'if't'..strates curtailed and regulated, rather •tlagal tended. .It was euriouS to remark the dlife re a ll . 'modes of thinking at different times in ihiS ca try. By the old Acts of Parliament, it apP° l. 3s that when disturbances took place,, a course sit., pursued the reverse of that now proposed. ;3,, old times it was the practice to arm all the in'iva bitants ; to put them under the direction of 5° . 1 0 1 constituted authority, and to make the Shall: A every county responsible,• and every districtllo.,r• county responsihlefor the mischief that might oce, In proof of this he referred to the Statute 13th of Edward I.; a. statute to which be vainly hoped the House would have looked guide in their late proceedings 'for regnlatioa' watch and ward. Our ancesiors, on suell"" c a - .a sloes, did not 'depart from: the Constitution' armed and organized all the inhabitants of toe turned districts, and punished, those who w ° }3 - 1a; not so arm to repress the disturbers of the P peace. Now, however, Parliament set about ti;g .arming the people. He could not conceive ' l , s 4 • thing more humiliating. He could not eon ee : ll , any thing to be a more complete badge Q f sl` o , For himself, he would rather die . on his t.1.1",di hold' than give up his arms. He was corlyiPc_eia that if the powers to be given by the Bill L s id not exercised with discretion, it was ealf.3ll"'re to put the whole country in a flame. Ft' specs to the strange supposition, that the gol f , tit/ able Gentleman (Mr. Whitbread) was one od instigators of these disturbances', it appe'f. re wit tremely ridiculous to the House that it 55 73 , 5 1 1 0 (1' so in the country. The ignorance abd ness of, the 'people in the country were ast 3 . l l o ing ; even in that House imputationi of a s , l l e il ba te nature were sometimes heard. In the last • ell on the bill, the late Secretary of St ate. . i° Home Department threw out an intimatl93