The Sun. — London, England, 1823-04-18 00:00:00

ty : nt- Ike ie no ed ob• the and not but d nut 0 sir, T ao 1 gpre'' A ch - tlin g tlje na ,essi°" i t i . ,, in , ' ell t he rorc 1' 1 ; lent bore such a construction. Ile now called upon the,llon. and Learned ( lentleman to state, whether he had intended the words to convey such is meaning. .: • - Mr. BR;OUGHAM rose in compliance with the call made on his name from different parts of the House. 'He stated, ehat he was now p l aced in a very difficult situation. The Chair had called, upon the Right Hou. Gentleman already to appolo gize as the offender-- Mr. TIERNEY rose to order.' He submited to the Chair, that when the Right Hon. Secretary conceived the language of the lion. and Learned Gentleman to be personally offensive, he should have first moved that the words be taken down; and then have called foe an explanation of them. But there would be an end to any thing like debate if such an interruption as that of the Right Hon. Secretary were allowed. It was in the middle of a sentence, before any one could tell hoW much the conclusion of it might qualify the first Member of it. •To call now upon the lion. and Learned Gentleman fur an explanation, when a timely and proper interference would have coMpelled him to give it, was, he thought; entirely out of coarse. • The expression of the Hight lion. Secretary had been. re-affirmed. He, - for one, could assure the Right Hon. Secretary that he thought there would be no imputation upon his honour if he 'would withdraw the expression he had used, in order to make room for the explanation of the ' Honourable and Learhed I 'Gentleman. - - T he SPEAKER said he hid understood the Right Hon. Sc.t rctary to say that he withdrew the expression, but not the sen timent. His endeavour was to bring abput that fair explana tion which would appear in a decl a ration that t h e l anguage• o f the Ron. and Learned Gentleman was applied only to the ofil. cial conduct of the Right Hon. Secretary. Mr. Secrettny CAN'NING, after having maturely reflected on the words which he had used, felt himself bound, whatever censure the House might pass upon him, to declare that he could not reeator yam a - single word that he had made u s e of. Lord ARCH IBA 14D II * AMI uroN thought the rules ofthe Houses° clear, that there was no misunderstandinyeliem. He s t izid er, ti o ii l l l it tl that there was nothing in the case which could lead ilionPourable 4:tit:liarel. lie , would suppose that tlie i w n o a r n d n a er ! ie hi .. ,3 s i Nemec, had really been as objectionable as possible; and. them he would ask, whether, even upon this supposition, the Planguage o f the Right Honourable Gentlemen could bejustified ? ut when the words of his Hon. and Learned Friend hed not been taken not i ce of at the time, it. now became the duty of the Speaker to say who had been the rst to mak a breach of order. i After th e fi rst offender had been fi e made out it was his duty to retract. Now he would in the present case called upon the i Speaker to say who had been the first; and whether there be I not an Order of the House--that whoever was the first to pled tti corn init a breach of or d er ought not to be the first to make an ex. on ? Then if hthe succeeding o e retract, ffender ought to do the same. _ Mr. r. BANKE S rose with pain to speak on this subject. But he tho ug h t the Noble Lord in a mistake in - thinking that the SPeaker did not call upon those who had been guilty of a breath • elf order fbr an explanation ; for the Speaker had so called. He (Mr. B.) was sorry that the Right Hon. Gent had not made that ~,Patlation, winch he could have (lane with perfect honour.— the!ne flight lion. Gent. might have said that , lie way sorry tor words of which he had made use. If the matter. was not amongst!; it might lead to consequences of the most unpleas ant nature, and because they were so, lie "roved that both the Gentlemen should be taken into custody. •to tak e t hi s course, because it was that Ile was induced, e was usual.-- ; It might be that the one or the ot h er was wrong; an d to fi n d . out who way so would be a matter of investigation, but till this 1 ~ were decided, he should m ove that both lie taken into custody ; •a_nd he could not conceiv e t h at there could be .any other me. et, t_liod.: ,The Honourable Gen t l eman concluded by mov i ng t h at 5,.. Mr. Secr e t ar •tode, y' Canning and Mr. Brougham be teken into ens - , ' lir. Sericant ONSLOW seconded the motion. ,' AIL I VYNN must decline suorting the motion, though lie, !.Treed with his Iron. Friend in till that fell from him, because fie did not think the Rouse was in a situation to make the order no w Pr°Posed, until it had first decided 'that uttered in contern t of the privileges' of the 'louse. lie assured the II cane unaffectedly c, something had been - . f t h e 406 . 4 !teamed , that he did not exact! rem . e o t n nbertli t e h i a v t ott , l , a lipaire, so far the .iatiocutsmetpinlet • an •- Gent. but his ropres3l was, r , ___,. ~i doubted!' trite that his Hon. Gentleman was interruptete eeo _ as it went, was disorderly . ; but it it a J. , ) , n; • he ti ad • c tb d inin sent e That interroption, he - joined . e was . a disorderly act, but it was com- Initted under circurn . sta g r:ces which every one must see entitled his Right lion. Friend to every indulgeuee., see any great diffieulty in the way of a lie really did not &ample& explanation. At all,evens, let what would happen in the t time, the House would take care that the matter should norgo be yond that •House. He felt it to be a duty which they 'owed to t heir constituents, to th emse l ves ; a nd' the freedom of debate, not to allow that' either of the Alembers should leave the House except in eustodye• until tl I • 1 •,' en their honour that the ley Le lay olion- should go no firther He thought that the explanation his Right llonou'rable.•Frten' thou '.l d was not sufficient. , Ile ~ e., n then that he was justified in asking as a favour froni "le Honourable, and Learned Gentlemen that he would itate— Mr. 13Ro ue i e, . uti4.llle-.Not one word— -I,Mr. WY NN thought that it would not be unb ec omi ng in the . on, Gentleman to. suite. to the House wheth e r or not lie had t h. . to use , Inten ded the word in a personal sense. now ever, as - 13 W" declined, he saw no other course tbr the tioitse to adopt- eon! to demand a pledge from thoser Gentlemen that the 'hatterd not be carried firther. Mr. ABERCRO3I WV thought that the question which the ' Bootie lied to Consider Was whether a breach pf order had been the cc i nit , lli tted ; and this being ascertained, the next inquiry wits' .pt.' oper apPlogy- had been made. With regard to 'e question. that there bad been a breach of order, he nought d v?aa .admittell ; and this being the case, would he thought the Goo 6 not do Its duty, if it did not support its own, order. 'the let of falsehood had been brought. &Peened Friend by the Right Hon. Gentle Mun, and that egaioSt his lion. and P lv aaa breach of' order there could be no doubt. lie was of opt-. ies. that the Ilottse should take care that,' no further proceed-. i'!'phould take place ; and they would best do t1:1:; by a.;cer rthig who had been the first to Offend, and recommending to inn id be tile. tint to explain. • • - each. 'WILMOT had viewed the whole matter ae a:vectator, such and Learn he could give tin impartial opimon. If the Hon. and- Learned Gentlertian would Pay that the words of . d °ill he halt made use were not. personal,, then • lie had no 'doubt but his Right Hon. Friend. would exlain . away the 'Times),! o is which had given offence. As for himself (Mr. had viewing the matter as lie did, as a mere spectator, He ~no hesitation in Paying, that the words of the lion. and ttetrned Gentleman did to him appear to have a personal appli e an ; he did not say that such was the intention of the lion. set t _ l rnatt, but still that did not alter the, impression they the, impresiillll 7 4 ietle upon him, and :to could not be presumed to affect. If he had 'been tit the ...., !Welly have th"Y had made upon his Right Him. Frienil.—, would et . ti the situation of his Right Hon. Friend,. he tt, o l. Friend had acted; and if he were in the situation of the In the same manner as that. Right t e l e. and ,Learned Gentleman, he would haVe no hesitation in ~ , h ylng that he had not used the words in a personal sense ; he d.itharthe House would declare who had been the first to bred_ ,le orders of the Ilouse.—Olean.) 0 :2 1 1. jr; BURDETT could not concur in the view taken by it 1), 1 t k i' st ," ti• Gentleman who had ittst sat dowii. The language • wax no irritating. because. it was personal, but because lite ilr e d to affect the indivitlital to whom it was directeile-, in hit ;mumble and Learned Friend had used no language, fue et i ni n ton, which as a public man speaking of a public Braless) Y , he wm not entitled to use. lf he (Sir t relicts or th e Ex‘'lte t e r, la or expose any act ot' the Chancelldr t e tsolial e le g it oughtnot not be taken as an, attack an his °lvey character, but on his public station. They knew, be er , ur ? that the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite had ' 3 Iteonve • '. gulit Y of a gross breach of 'oriler. Nothing could be t o ~,,} l, .i nient as Gentlemen making answer on'the moment or as was said about them, instead of waiting . till the hey fornis of the House permitted them to ' do so. But n ; l tes it was highly disorderly to ,interrupt any Mem. b ee emie COttne of his speech. If; as the Honourable , Itlem teo 1 a s aiso _ a an spoke, had said, the expressions had struck him haw he re di, he ought at the time to have pointed. it out, to file t the words taken down, and then have called on the t hath e lin t a i 7 ti r , t° explain hie meaning. But, as the sentence was not whe t in n° one could say how it might have terminated, or eluting- collectively the wordtr might have borne.. All e._ slat embed to impress upon the. House was, that so fur as i t!' _te r bad gmie, they should not fail to - put the saddle on ig ti iig it hose. It was admitted on a ll h an d s . that the - slight "brezt,?ertlertitin opposite (Mr. (tanning)-had been guilty of a withi l i3 li t i . 9F.dee, and th e H ouse had first, lie thought, to deal lik Awl . i. ' 2 llO l , --IeRT WiI..SON assured the House that in his opi -4.3 the eXPreseions which had fallen from the mouth of his th7tend Leatned Friend (Mr. Broogham) were adilreseed to eli e nf t qfht Bon. Gentleman who had felt himself aggrieved by in n h i'' official, character either as GoVerniir s Getieral of e.... , ; or as Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. . Neither did jettpnic that the interraption •of- the • ight---Hon-Gentleman 1 1 ; 1 , 31 14, 4 h t tdire . cted to any thing but hn impression that the mean -Whet 1 „` t ,ntion of the language in question was•the en tl n- (bir It. Wilson) had•stated his view of it, ta be. 'That 'ttiir itt)i°ll- affix made under• the, Jinn conviction of the mo -teleakill”ethe pression was personal, and not otherwise in. tate- -irt dear t) ,,, With.thie view.of the -case, he lieg - ged leave runt he theught the Right lion. Gentleman might, con. ;gym y' with -Iris; hermitr and feelings.s that : it was under line ;ton that the languag e visas meant tube pereanal, thet he ;to n i ntr !..e'ipinio: - Whi ch • had cant* forth the present discue. 41 h y „loeulate as tat e j - , -( 1 : teary, hear I )—.I le- tendered. this. advice ;poet , delibe e 11 g a mt co of! tumour, he coascientiouslY declar. gh consistently be adopted by the - Right Hon. Gentleman. • • He could always reserve to himself the power of. taking any course he might think fit according to the turn the' t matter might take hereafteree-(Hear, hear!) • - • . . i Mr. Secretary CANNING said, he rose to assent to the pro positinn• of the Hon.• Meniber.—(Hearn hear, hear !)—With respect to the House, he begged to declare, art he had already' done, that for the breach ot its orders, of which he had been i guilty,_ be, wished to make every e atonement in his power,. and to. submit himself entirely to their guidance. He had further 1 to state, according to the suggestion of the Hon. Member, that he had understood the Hon. and Learned Member for Win chelsea to apply to him imputations, which, if he should find were not applied to him, then he would retract every thing he bad said on this occasion. He had certainly understood that he had applied language-to him personally, as haying made un becoming submission to a certain high 'character in the State„ for the sake of coming into office. That, charge, he conceived. I. could not be applied to him in his official, but in his personal t Character., • If in that conception,. how.ever,•,it should turn out that he-was mistaken, he sincerely regretted the course he had . Ltaken upon- it. - If that intention were avower!, be retracted: nothing., ~ : The SPEAKER intreated the atttention of the House whilst be stated what appe . ared, to, him, to be the precise state of the matter before them. lie considered that there were two dis tinct questions . under consideration. • The ; one: was the-breach of Order which had been committed, and upon this it was for the House to consider whether the Right Ilone:Member who • had been guilty of it :had made such an explanation as, ab-. straetedly taken as regarding the House alotte, was satisfac tory. . The next point was, ti:P apprOleololl. of consequences. which might arise from this disorderly-Conduet ;-. and Upon tlii . he had only to say that it . was the duty of the Ilouse, if there . .. existed the sli . ghtest apprehension of consequences, to take steps within its- own power to .prevent - .them. He ,the Speaker) conceived that there were plain, simple, and io- dispritable grounds, upon which there could be no Misap prehension of misunderstanding, , to call upon the House te ~ do What was in its own power to secure itself against impend.• ing consequences. If, on the other hand, as was hie' own opi nion,- it should appear to the House, that the:matter be quet... tion arose from a misunderstanding,- the. Ilouse would see,that, there was no difficulty whatever in having the mieundefitanding' cleared away, and all difficulty at once removed, lie then pro, needed to state .to the .Ilouse how these two pints had been met. Ile regarded the violation-of the order of the House, as undettlited ;'but-he also understood the It ight Hon. Secretary had retracted conipltely as far as concerned the House. The next point was the consequences likely to arise from the Right. Hon. Secretary, understanding the language of the lion. and ',earned Aleinber to convey a personal offence. He had said' that if no offence YRS meant, it was his wish that he should be regarded as "rot baying intended to give any. Other Members lied said, that in. then opinions no offence was meant, It was unnecessary for hiM to add, that if if-had appeared to him that any offence was meant, he should have stopped the lion. and • Learned Member.—The point of consideration, therefore, was, whether such offence .was intended to be giveoe and if so; they would have to take steps to prevent its proceeding further.— ( lion, hear !)—lle (the Speaker) concluded, ofslourse, that none .was intended, , and it remained for the House to have that opinion - confirmed. from the mouth of the LiOn. Member who. used .the words.—(Hear. heat !) , . . . Mr. BROUGHAM. said, that if he were to consult his own inclinations on theepeesent occasion, he should ask permission , of the House to pass .on to the remaining observations he was ,about to-make at the time. he was interrupted, .in one or two more sentences. But underseending• that the Ilouse wished him to explain, he would-proceed simply to remind the House at' the state of ' the question as he regarded it then before them. He begged, however, that the liouee would not • for a moment allow its recollection to be deceived into the notion that - it was he (Mr. Brougham) who had called upon the Right Honour able Gentleman (31r. Secretary-Canning) for ap explanation or an apology—that mode of treating the case had not proceeded from him. • The next ,question seas, not whether the Right honourable Alemher wbe : had. been declared by the highest. authority, backed by his own declar.ition, should be taken into custody, but whether both,: including himself, against whom there_ was no charge, sboull be taken' into custody also.- To tbliemotionheintd not witnessed, not even; by signs or other : wise, any thing like assent. The power of the House was undotititedly absolute, and- they might, if they thought -fit, adopt this motion, which would; in his opinion, . be to act in violation ,Of 'all principles of justice: -• He begged the House, hpwever, to believe that he was as much' opposed to the first part of the motion as to the last. He (31r. B.) was the last Man in the House, =alto - ever : should be, to advocate the tak , ing a 31ember into custody for a phrase he might be pleased to make use of in . adverting to .4.ll4li . .uttered sentence.— Now, as to the sentence itself' which he was required to ex plain, he-most unaffectedly declared to the House.that he was utterly incapable of referring to the exact weals he had used, Ile perfectly well remembered Whet he meant to say, and if he had expressed his meaning,too p e r s on a lly, he professed not to • have an over nice understanding to be able to distinguish in such cases.; but that certainly was not-his intention. - ft .was a mighty difficult thing to know what was personal and what not, in -alluding to the political character ot. any - man. But lie would tell die Mouse franklY what it was he meant to say, and lease them and the'. Hight Hon. -Secretary to judge whether his motives cam e within that line of personality , of which the rules of that !louse forbede' the'•infraction. The opinion he had adopted woo Jnatter of inference from facts, and he should be glad to find that in his premises or-his deduction he was in error. . The only wortheierhie -Memory as .having used, - were the words " politiCal tergiver;stion " and those wo r d s , h e .thought, had st ood .. out sufficiently iirominent in the con text to give ; a clue. to the intention of the whole phrase. It Wits a strong expression, bat he hid , felt .strongly on ' th e subject on .which he used , them.,_it had beep many. times used in that House, anti 'as he thought never more aptly applied.- Rut that was. not all, ' He confessed he had a very str ong feel ing on that passage in the life of the Right Hon. Gentl em a n t o • wifichhe had .referred. :AS -a-private individual he was bound , to say that he .had never known him in any act or relation of life mat did not da• bins honour. - -(Hear, hear!)—But having been. joined with him, in the seine pursuit-with regard to the Roman Catholics of •Irelands he did feel most poignantly that paneage in his life wherein it had; appeared to him he had aa eriticett awn- interests. lie had used that expression; there fore, •not, for party or factiops,• • and least of all for personal purposes.•—(lle a r, bear, hear !)—lie had understood the Ri g ht Honourable Gentleman • to have said in a .speech 'be niade.at Liverpool, that he did not wish this question to he again agitated in Parliament—that it' was his intention to support' it if it did ; but that he wished it not to be brought lorviard. 4-Me might have been wrongly informed, but he had' reedit to. in what appeared to be an .authorised report.. This len toiage had been held at the precise moment when the Right lion. Gentleman was to be either a Minister at home; or to go to India aa.Governor.General e and when he. remembered the ineteeof the Cabinet on this subject, and the precise opinions of the Lard Chancellor in that Cabinet, to whom he (Mr. B.) who Was also politically Hostile, 'he 'could 'not repel the - conclusion he had stated in the . objectionable expression. It .was under that impression, and with the• view of transferring it to. the Ilouse, that he had used the . expression In question—a strong expression, ; certainly, ~but if tOo, strong for she orders of the Reuse ' , he most readily aptilegiesd, although it was not too strong for- his feelings. But he had besides imputed to die Right Honoineble Gentleman's change in his feelings as re. garded the Roman Catholics. - - lie had judged his motives from - his outward conduct, from :which alone he could know them; anti, as he conceived, was entitled to deduce them. The - Itight Honourable Gentleman had since the period to which he • had alluded, became -a Minister, and, as it was called, the manager of that Uousc, and' upon all those circumstances put together, he had thought- himself justified in attributing to him truckling to the Lord Chancellor. - Ile knew it was wrong to -attribute motives; and- from whatehe. could gather from the., ;Right Hon. Gentleman, it appeared he was wrong on the pre- ' sent occasion. Ile was sorry if be has wrongly made such a :charge in endeavouring to express his opinion of the ground of , conduct which he could not but regard as a death-blow to . the hopes .of the Roman Catholics ,of Ireland. But he ex pressly declared he had not' used it from _party, and still lees frwaL personal motives.—(.hearehearl)—lie could say no more to satisfy the House, anti he must leave the Right iloM Gen tleman himself to 'judge, of the :`rest.-- Howevever dispotteil he might be, he could go no fur Vier after the expression which fell • from the Right Hon. Gentleman when last he . addreised the Howe. An exression that he bad alien used completely stopped his-mouth-unwillingly he admitted,. but hoivever de. sirous he might be s it was impossible, he could proceed further , under the declaration that it' he did not tie se, the offensive exS prension would he repeated.—(Hear, heari) Mr. PLUNKETT said a few words, but in so low a tone of ; voice as' to be-inaudible in the •Gallery. .; Mr. Secretary ,PEEL considered that there was no necessity to say any thing more,' in order to the intisfactory-settlement of • the, matter with perfect honour to all parties- ;His tight llon. Friend in a ninment.Of heat had made use of an - Objectionable , word. The Von.-Member for Southwark; in -such cases an authority of the highest description, and a man of higlehonottr, , suggested antler these circumstances a course, which his Right ' Honotirable,"Friend 'immediately acceptetL Ills -Right • - liOn. Friend had said that- if thellon 'and - Learned Member meant , a-personal imputation, anal they all knew: the meaning of that, then he did not. retract; but it' he did • not, he readily and Willingly recalled all he had said....• Upon this the' Honour able notlie r i e n da t 1 4 : 4e , l ei:l i d ag a p n feo t r l rw e t rn om a lni t 9. l . . c t; . ri ai l ei d e i u i nl hallsubstance, thisai,ciih ‘a,. re. ye of that i t r t l y J,ie trucklingt did t) 4t • in speaking of him, It was in his public character,, in the , exercise of a - privilege, which he thought he had a right-to. As• , to this Particular point he could only sayeabat Ins-Right Hon. , Friend -had been completely ; tnisrepresented . to the, Hon. and less apply than to his conduct on the occasion alluded to. Pn der these circumstances, he did hope the. house would See that it had gone far enough in this matter, having attained, the de. sired object.—(Hear !) Mr. BA 'LIKES then signified his readineskto withdraw his motion. Mr. TIERNEY said he was sure after what had passed; it would be satisfactory to the House, before it dismissed the mat ter altogether, if the Gentlemen would h ave the goodness to say that they would think no more of it. Mr. becretaryCANN IN G readily gave the Pledge required,' in saying, he would think more of . "Mr. BROUGHAM rose with pleasure to' follow the Right Hon:Gentleman in the same words he had himself used.He assured him and the House he would think no more of the matter(leer !)-LThis was - not the tirwtime - they had both been embattled in political hostility against each ,other, and if ritme of it remained in the breast of the Right-116m Gentleman, he assured him none remained in his.—(cheers.)—leaving thus disposed of this subject, one at all tittles - interesting to the House, hut which he thought occupied more ofits time• than it deserved, were he. to listen to his own 'feelingii, he should not go on with the question out of which ithatr originated. He could not, however, do otherwise than address his Right Hon. Friend the Attorney-General for Irelatidplr. - : Plurikett)4 his Right Mon. Friend next to him, and all- upon. that Bench, as well as those 'behind - them, Who' felt sincerely 'pledged to the queStien, • to:warn them, that in - abandoning the cause that night, they were dealing With edged toot:. However, -by in sincerity, the Roman Catholics of Ireland might Inave been be trayetl,„ he (Mr. Brougham) would not betray them—he would not betray the interests. of Ireland- . he would' not present to them the same spectacle as those who, out of office, were zea lous in their cause and who, from unqueithanableamitives at leaSt, when in office sheweil symtorns, of inditference. lie called upon the advoCates of the measure to take example froM' the career of - the Abolition of the ,a - slave Trade: What would have been the fate of that question, if his revered Friend,' • the Member for Yorkshire, had trailed, year after year,: •to bring it forward, because the Minister of the tiak,, who had One. , heartily supported,- all at once abandoned it'? If languae such as they had heard that - night had then been .used, would' that great and lamentable man, Mr. Fox, and Lord Grenville, have carried it eventually . ? They did'ssot. make •it a Cabinet question, but virtually it became such in their hands. They did not count noses in making an Administration about it, making half one was and half another. And when the mi serable wreck of the slave vessel went down _in that House, amidst the astounding cheers of all the real friends of humanity, clinging to its miserable remains, and hound for ever to its rig ging, were.soinesixteen, who appeared in ,site division. in fa vour of it, and amongiit whom was a predeeesser of the Right lion.. Gentleman now.-called the 'illannager of that House.—. (Bear!)—To abandon the emir that night for the reason given, was just as - absurd blundering as it would be in a man-having half built a house, should pull it down because a rat had got into it. He (Mr. BrOugham) eared not for - the vermin' of the raising superstructure, he would go on with the building, as he r:eammended to the staunch supporters of the Cathcilic Ques tion to do that night.---(Hear . Mr. HUME scarcely thought it necessary to tell the House that he did not leave - it on a light occasion. . Yet. it was his in tention to do so if this question was brought forward that night. Tl 4 Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. - Canning) on former debates on this subject, had always declared that the vital interests of the 'Emfdre and of Ireland required that it should be made - a Cabinet question. .Yet • had he accepted a seat in a divided Cabinet. If he were to leave this Important question to go loose .in the way it.was at present, the vital interests. of • the =airy would indeed stiffer. He (Mr. Hume), however, would not change, as others had done; and if the question 'was brought on in such a way, he would leave the House rather than give it his support. Mr. R. -31 ARTIN was sure that a divided Cabinet on .this Pueition was snore agreeable to the divided population'of rotestants and, Catholics in Ireland, than a Cabinet united to carry the question upon any but its own merits, lie thought, however, as flow Gentlemen chose not to support 'the.question this year, for the sake of leaving those who would support it in a minority, he advised hbfflight'llOn.. Friend not to bring it forward this Session leaving those Honourable Gentlemen the triumph' of a defeat. Mr. SPRING RICE was sorry that any detriment to the. Catholic . question should nroCeed frOm that side of the house.` The major part of the Opposition of England had always been known as the undeViating uncorrupted friends of the cause. If there;wereto be but a miserable minority of two,-the Irish Oen. tlemen would be found in their places. No matter what name was given' to the question—whether sessional or wearisonie, truth in the long run must prevail. If he were not to have any other opportunity of discussing it, he would then say, that the present state of Ireland was a stronger argument. in favour of the measure than any that could be 'drawn from history, or any other source. , Sir JOHN NEWPORT considered that on the passing of the Bill about to be proposed, rested the' happiness of the Em. lie trusted the Right Hon. Coffman would proceed with' it, in spite of•the secession of Ihin. Members. Sir ROBERT HERON declared his intention .of giving his humble stippoit to the cause Whenever brought forivard. • The Petition was then ordered to be laid on the table, and, on the motion of Mr. COKU, to be printed. IRISH. , CATHOLIC CLAIMS. • At the moment when the Speaker called on Mr. Plunkett, several of the leading Members on the OPpiesititei Benches ' rose and left the House, among whom we noticed Sir F. Bur dett, flu.? Earl of Sefton, Lord Folkestone, Edward Ellice, Esq. ' Sir R. Wilson, J. C.. Ilobbouse, Mr. Hume, 110n..11. G. Ben, net, Sir R. Fergusson, Peter Moore, Lord F. Osborne, S. Bar rett, Thomas Cseevey. and Mr. Coke. Mr. PLUNKETT said, , that it hail been his intention to have presented a petition• that day from some of the most considerable Catholics in Ireland, bort Ice. was rprevented, in consequence of some unforeseen informality. lie begged; however, to be considered as 4uthorival to the sante extent as though he had presented it. He never in his life had ad. dressed that House under circunuo-ances of so much, dial, culty. He found he had to sustain the cause of all the Roman Catholics, not only against its usual opponents, but against its ordinary supporters. The serious loss of those Gentlemen who had so ostentatiously withdrawn themselves was not so'se rious as the deep wound inflicted by the speech of the Right lion. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Tierney), and the contluet of those who foretold the failure of this measure because of its Ad. vocate. Let the cause be what it would, it must be condemned by such a course. He however was not afraid of being thought insincere in the cause by those whose interest it . most nearly affected. It was impossible for him not to feel surprise at the course pursued by those who had heretofore wished to be con sidered the friends of this question. He was really now at a loss to know how the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite could furnish himself with a plausible reason for *tying this question was not now entitled to their,support; because it was in the hands of decided Administration. The Hon. Gentleman had supported it from the year 1807,' though it had been in the • hands of a divided Administration. Notwithstanding this circumstance, it was seen that the cause was daily gaining ground. how, then, could the Right honourable Gentleman reconcile it to himselfas a patriot, to act a different p art n ow from that whi c h he had previously taken, because the queition was brought for. ward on the Alinisteriel side of the House, instead of coming from that aide on Which the Right lion. Gentleman' took his 'seat. The cause of 'Catholic Emancipation, had always, in his opinion, been too high for party. It was one which lifted them above all petty considerations and. party interests. lie was happy to say, his having . come over from the opposite aide of the House had not iojured hint with the Roman Cathci lies of Ireland. if his memory did not fail him, the Right Honourable Gentleman, who taunted` him 'on this subject, had performed the figure of passing from one side of the House to the other and back again, as gracefully - Mid as frequently as any Gentleman in it, lie did not say-the Right Honourable. Gentleman could not give very satisfactory reasons for his con duct; but.if he IMr4 Phinkett). webs now to enter into an ex.. planation of those by which he himself had been actuated, he thought he should be able to make out its good a. miens the' Right Hon. Gentleman himself could. Words which he had used in a former 'debate had beentvery sarcastically brought thriven' on this occasion. At the period referred to he had ex pressed himself as he felt; with a strong impression on his mind as to the manlier in which the Administration of t h at d ay h a d conic into power. lie might, however, retsina the Right Hon. Gentleman, that he (Mr. Plunkett) , had held'a situation simi lar to that which he now held, under atlivided Administration or which that Right Honourable Gentleman himself had formed apart, which Administration bad been willing to de fer the question, and had finally'bnly brought forward in fa vour of the Roman Catholics a measure of partial relief. When he joined the present Administration lie hail been' induced to do so from conviction that those Alernhertinf the :Cabinet w h o advocated the claims of the Catholics were sincere in their efforts to gain the required concessions. The Right Gentleman did him too much honour in supposing that his accession to the Administration WAS likely to To o ke any i ns _ varied difference to the Roman Catholics, if his joining the Atlininistration would have Injured them he' s lio u ld not stave been seen where he then was. , He hell, however, made sacri fices in the cause which the Right Honourable Gentleman ought Vint to forget, Which savid'him from the liability of being put down by assertions like those now made to his prenulice. He had perhaps detained the House: too long on this subject. Ho hid our to explain to the house_ why IA had not brought the ques tion for Ward last year,_ and why he - brought it forward on the present occasion, as there were not wanting those who thought him in both instances wrong. lie had conceived It right to exercise his own judgment in selecting the time for bringing on this debate, and if because some ten, or twelve G ent l emen chose to prognosticate failure, and to pronounce the funeral oration of cause before it had been entertained, he did not thinleithis duty to yield:tie:their tepiesentationa. Last „year a number of Gentlemen, whose sincerity he could not dotibt / and sinitingibini the-Right Heel Gentlemen, wereof ppinio the suhjectedeghteto have been then ,brought forward. Had this opetiOn bcten unanimous ' he might have= given way; but such -ngs„ lieinXtlitocaee, he lead felt himself , at liberty to exer cise his own discretiOn. The Right Ilona tientlemae • who fore men) hatUchargei of this greet geestion, did not call the etten- Lion of the House to it every year; and, 3fter the very elae borate'discussion ; which it , underwent 1821, he (Mr. Mine kett) i thought it might he advantageous not to agitate it in It had bee/lAD:4,Mb) , Others, and it was his 'opinion; .that the claimaof the Roman Catholics might be sometimes advantageously suffered to lie by to afford time for deliberation, On the question itself his opinions had' not beealightly formed. They had been formed when he had not the Shadow of a motive fot takingthe course he had - preferred: - They had grown -out pf instincts from which he could never part, bad been strengthen ed by reflection and enquiry in the course of professional and liberal study, and _confirmed by the experience of a 3Seyeare7 residence in Ireland.' 'The 'result Was, he felt convinced that the'claiths of the Catholics ought to be conceded as a water (If constitutional right, and further, he-Was convinced the measure was expedient,: and! abSolutely. necessary. , no did not mean by, this, that if it were not carried there would be any danger of a separation of the two` countries,' nor &the mean to say- that: its rejection would prove the immediate cause of disturbances in, Ireland. 'TheßonitinsCatholice in that part of the , Empire'were too sensible:of the benefits they received.—(Here toe noise which had for Someiimesikeealled in the. House became - 991611d that the Right Hon. Gentleman could with difficulty be heard e l He said he was aware of the disadvantages of rising at that late hotir of the night, but he -must throw:himself. on , the ip dulgence of the House whil e ca lli ng a their attention to subject which, t-hough lees - interesting than that which had just passed eyer, was certainly not less important. He believed die Catholics were too sensible of the progress which they hid made to be likely to rush into any excesses in consequence of a further poetponement of those concessions which as'British subjects they had a right to demand. He believed -it was admitted by every intelligent' man, that ultimately:the question must be carried, or instead of a state of security and tranquillity, we must remain in one of ceaseless watchfulness and feverish eigi lance: in peace or war our resources would be weakened, our . consequende in the scale of Europe Would be diminished, and we should be deprived of all the benefits which must re, stilt from union and concord. Whatever consequence Mei.: nailer - attached . to this -measures: was considerably increased by the circumstances of the tithes. The declared sense of the House of Commons had been given in favoids of a Bill similar to that which he wished to introduce, Besides the Bill of 1821, a second Bill had been passed faVourable to Catholic ethaucipstion. Twice the settse of that House had been 'de— clared in favour of such. a change of system as he was now about to recommend, for the Billof 1822 did not confine it self for admitting. Catholic Peers into Parliament, but it ex tended 'for 'Making 'Catholies• eligible to the Peerage.- The numbers of the Roman Catholics had, on some. occasions, been much exaggerated ; and Vibe Bill which he wished to bring in should pus, lie was - confident that- the youngest man in the House would not live to see twenty Catholic Members in it._ So convinced were the Roman Catholics of this, that they would net object to a limitation of the number of Catholics to be , ale lowed to sit in. Parliament. Ile should not propose a limitation because it would involve a deviation from principle for the purpose . of meeting a danger which he held to be chimerical ; but' if any -other Mernhee should introdoce•such a provision into this 1)01, he should not, if it were adopted, consider the measure to be lost. The Bills which had been paseied'hy that flow in conformity whit , his views of the question, had never been returned to it. \Mat arguments had been opposed to them elsewhere, it was not for .biro to guess, but it had gone forth .to the world that they had been found opposed to the ge neral system of the country, as established by the Referniation and the . Revolution. To tins point he proposed to apply him self; in Order visitor that such was not the true description • of those Bills. But first he must ofler a few words on the etthj; , ct of securities. Some contended that securities were necessary, Others that they were unnecessary, and a third class of persons, not saying they were necessary, availed themeelves of the cir cumstance of their not being given tee oppose Catholic emanci pation. He was of opinion,that securities were necessary—end so much did he fed this, that he should disapprove of the peese ing of the Bill which he desired to see carried; if these could. not be obtained. Sodie had objected to the measures brought forward , for the relief of the Roman Catholic* on the supposi e tion that Catholic Dissenters would be relieved from disabi lities which would still' be allowed to press on Protestant Dissenters. lint this was not the fact. His Bill, if carried, . would only relieve Roman Catholics from dieabilities of which Protestant Dissenters had not. to complain; and put them on the same footing with other'Dissenters froM the Established Church. Some argued, that if such a Biller assed, the repeal of the Text and Corporation Acts must inunediately follow. The 'Test-Act had been repealed in Ireland for forty yea's, but the Roman Catholics had -not any the more for that been re lieved from their disahilitiee. 1k therefore insisted that; 'bes tiVfell the measure of Catholic Emancipation / and the Test and Certioritidn Acts, there was no necessary ceneectitin.— But while he stated this, he would -not be eo dieingenteme as to conceal his sentiments en those subjects. If ever the 'repeal or the Tied :and Corporation • Acts shottld be- pro. posed in that House, he would give such a .measure his en tire and hearty 'Support. —(llenr, hear, bear !)—lle would do so because he. thelighe thie was doe to the exemplary man ' ner in which the 'dissenter's had conducted thenitedees. The Right lionotteableGentleman proceeded to itheweitat the Inca sure for which he was the advocate, was not inconsistent with the principles Of theelleformation. The repeal! of the stet of Supremacy was KIR to be at war with the Reformation. It was true that from the period of the Reformatioa we were to trace the precept state of the country, and the rights, privileges, and duties which littiched- to the Crown. lie; however, denied that the exclusion of any. class of subjects from that Repreten- . tative Body, rested on any thing bum Special Enactmentie e .e 1 It was then to the Statute, Law alone .that they were to coddler 'those exclusions of which the Catholic% complained. The Act of Uniforthity passed itidhe time of. Elizabeth was intended; in the first place, to make the Protestant religion the religion cot the State: The second Orilla* which it enforced Was the potting- down of all other religions, and to ,prevent the public exetcise of them as cootuthattiotie. t The third object of the A& 'teas e to distinguish between Catholics well effected to the State and those who were disaffected, in order to exclude the latter froni thotte heitiours which- it was in .the power of the 'State- to Confer. The putting down of all religions but that of the State had been attemeiteCduring a period of nearly WO years, and had been finally abandoned. It wan unnecessary to inquire into the causes which had led to this, bet the principle had' been given op when. the law against miceearits were repeal. ed. The second principle contended ler atilie time of the Re- - formation.of winch 'hel had spokee, , did,not appear to him to, be intended to ex c l u d e Di ssenters f rom off i ce or fr o m Parlia ment. Dissenters, flit one hundred and, tufty years aftet Reformation; were admitted to both. Theethird principle, that of deciding between the well-atfected and the theeffected, was said to have been opposed by the oath prepared in the measure of 1821.. It appeared to hint that the Oath of Supremacy had never been framed for the. purposes which were commonly supposed, , to have been contemplated by those with whom it Originated. His view of the Oath of Supremacy-he supported by referring to several documents. The firm aft these to which he should refer was the title of thaAct of Supiemaey, Which was entitled " An Act for restoring to the Crown its ancient jurisdiction over the State, Ecclesiastical and Spiritual, and abolishing , the exercise of ,all foreign . authority within. this Realm_ , as repugnant to the State.' Th's Proved' the'Act to have been intended to claim for the Crown tinted powers which had been assumed by the Pope. Ile hOWever maintained, - rot the authority of various documents -to which-he-referred,. that the oath was intended to be the test of loyalty, and not of reli gion, Mid not to exClude Roman Catholics froth sitting in Pare liament, or, from holding office under the Crown. Ile com pared the oath of 1021 with the Oath of Supremacy, and ape pealed to the. House if thelatter were opposed to the former.— The object of the Act of Elitabeth was not to exClude, but to comprehend Catholics, by- framing. ate oath.which it, loyal CA-. thohc might be able to take. Fronk reading Hume, Rapin, and-Burnet, it-would be.found that in the,ragns of „lames 1.- and Charles I. the _Catholics were admitted to all offices un: del the Crown: Thiesit might be said, had been perhaps done by the dispersing power of the Crown; but it was not sosee corded, nor wee 'it so admitted by'the The' 27th Of Elizabeth disabled Jesuits and Itornati Catholic Prie s t s ip p are denial. cases from holding office. Frith these penalties these' were exempted ;who welt the oath of xepremacy. _lle would ask, was it likely, that the Legislature would have proffered such an exemption if the oath had been thought such thet--no Roman Catholic could take it ? The law remained such at he had deicribed it with tespeet to Roman embolic% down to the tithe of Charles 11. when it became necesesery, es it was thtiught to exclude Roman . Catholics fitim Pat- Lament. , This -was not because the Roman Catholics were then disloyal. They were not disloyal.. There was at that ' Period no Pretender, and no Jacobites, but the King himself hod become prime traitor to the St ate , anti loyalty tohim was stir hingerloyalty to the-Constitution. The oath of -supretpocy mut not in the Act of the idth Charles 11. It wait, however, necessary to guard against the pewee% formerly exeeeised by the Pope; who hal claimed the right ..of excommunicating the King, and had exercised authority over the subjecto of the State. The powers once claimed by the Pepe, the Catholies, .now disowned. Ile was elude to de so by the oath in the hit Bill which had been heaughtin nevelieve thd Cetholie body from the disabilities elflike Which they laboured. - The object of the oath,' which some had' Bald no Roman Whelk could conscientiously take, was mash as he had describtxt it to be. All the researches which had been made in con aectiou with this subject, had produced but., one. solitary. case in which the head of the Roman Catholie Chiirch could act hi oppOsition to the' litti of 'the.State.; Persons or that degree of consanguity, which admitted of their marrying without offend ing;the laws of the Protestant Church, could not marry by tte laws of the. Roman Catholic Church. • 'Finein , thli circumstance in a particular case where the. restoration 'of conjugal rights .might be decreed by our laws, the laws of the Roman Cathok ee Church might oppose it. But those laws could not deny the vat* lidity of the marriage, nor the legitimacy of the children of such Marriage; nor could they do any thing that might affect the rightseee e liberty, or property of the subject. They could merely eseltida the 'parties from :participation in the rites of thei r Church. =. The power of the Pope was no longer what it used to be. devouring lion, as it had been called n the Oath of 'supremacy `was irathed, had become me • • o:e time, had. in tact been tendered utnoc Whatever banger might he supposed . • , - , .which the Pope, as head of the -Catho: . se cise in his.reahn, that danger • enieted ie. a, great a dee gree as it could rationally be expeee.e. to t )Cst after the claims of the Catholics had been grented. If the Getliollt• Were dispoSed to trifle with his conscience, w:at could peevene trim from misconstruing the .oath • which lit! AC IS now called upon to take. If he were honest, the to be posed to him would blind hint ; it dish -flees:, .Zll at pre. sent profilired would not. lie compleined : :e injustice of supposing such depravity ,on the' part part e 7 -.ee Roman Ca tholics could reconcile them, to the to which it Was . presumed they were equal.- While on this iiuttk....z. read a letter addressed .by Lord Burheigh to Qtteen zabeth, in . 533, in "which that celebrated titetesmar, mil to her Majesty the propriety of relaxirig in favour ofte Catholics, and set forth that if it were presumed that the R, . man Catholics would dissemble and equiVoeate while taking. an oath, anti seek - absolution from the Pope, he migh t in 'ht-, same manner dissemble, equivocate, and sack absolution wilt - regard to others, which were then supposed to secure the REQ.. testant interests. Such had been the opinion of Lead Burleigh, • who was a sound Protestant and an honest Steteeman. But it should seem that we grew wiser as the world grew oider, ar cl after 200 years had elapsed since the sentiments he had juet. road lied been , written by Lord Thirleigh, it was Naiad out that it was in vain to think of placing contiaknee Jr, the inte. grity of a I,oman Catholic. If such an idea could be en.• tertained with justice : --if it were thought the CithAiCs OUgh; to continue to experience such treatment, he should be Elise posed to say to the. Ilouse---" Go hack to }'cur Penal ne wee , .. But if they did so, he would certeinly advise them not to reit,- due, but to exterminate the Roman Caliollee. If they age ha succeeded , in binding the strong man, the wisest course would be, not to cut off his haine which might grow again., but to cut ofrhis head, which would never grew any more.—(Hear !)—lie now proceeded with reluctance to notice the arguments drawn front the Revolution Against Catholic Emercipation, . Thera was no greater mistake than that which was fallen into by thoea persons who supposed the itevollititm and/Settlement had any • thing to du with the system established by the :nth and Stith of ITharles the Second. So. far from this beiag the case the Revolution was at right angles with that. system. The feet Was, Charles the Sectind had .ceased to be the protector e e the State.. The Crown had formed the pro'iect of ov,:turii,. ing the established reli g i on . Th e Acts of the 2.501 and "dihit of that reign were not intended t o make the l'hrene Made mentally Protestant, ' but were framed' as a subititute for 'such protection. It was ' obvious that such. a sytitem could not be lasting. The Parliament in effect said to the King,— " We cannot trust you, but we will keep vou un a:a Throne, yield you dutiful obedience, but we will not suffer you to change the religion of the State." The first ineti sure of the Revolution was in direct opposition to :the system of Charles 'the Second. It altered the law by making the Throne fundamentally and unalterably Protestant. Ring William's Parliament altered th e O at h of Supremacy, and proposed to repeal the Test a nd Corporation Acts. It was ntit true that at the time of the Revolution; a system j .• of just' anti enlightened toleration was secured.' By the laws then enacted, the Roman Catholics were shut out from almost all the rights which belonged to Members of civi lized society. Instead of finding theniselves relieved by a system of.snlightened toleration, tiles , were the victims of is cruel persecution. The Throne was at that period made At:- alterably Protestant, and it was prOvided . that none hilt a Protestant should be King of these reelms, that no hostility towards the Protestant Church might froM that time.forWard be apprehended from the wearer of the Crown. The peried of civil and religious liberiy did not eon:tote:ice till and why should a, system of improvement not go on ? The Revolution only brought in constitutional liberty, and the ii:- tention of the founders was to promoto - religiuus libferty. It Was said Mr.: .Locke did not allow toleration to the Roman Ca tholics. That writer asserted that whilst they follow foreign authority they could not be good subjects. Would any man say the Roman Catholics of die present day were not gaol subjects ? They were good subjects ; and if so, what becameof the authority of 11.1 r. 4)40 Could they find on the'authb-- rity of any writer that good subjects ought to be deprived of the. benefit of the Co eistitution ? silo. Justine Blackstone aaid tit civil magistrate had nothing to do With Rornan CathelicS, whilst they contented to ' , the laws. They might enjoy their laded.. genres and purgatory, if 'they did not aeknowledge the authei rity of a foreign Power. It' they did, they were not to be treated like e goed subjects.' Was it twe sibl e to soy. g ee lions of people were bad subjects I' If t h a t r ea ll y was Iljey.ais., thee ot4;lit to give up' all dependence on th e i r defenilices',. And loo k at a large po r ti on of , the'ropulatiott with siiSpicion doubt. With respect to Scotland, it was true titer ' Sio;ch bill disabled Roam Catholic from being elected. Whilst the s ee ni e n etiated, Catholics were shut out, and if any Scotch Aleuther would move to relieve them in that respect, hu should he happy to , support the measure. 'fluty-might 'heal with that law which lie called electien-law, without infrioging the Act of Union.. The . Right Hen. (lentletifrin gilled, ispon the House to reject the idea of danger front tite.atitnission: of `persons with fixed religious principles to: the Legielteure.— There was danger in admitting Atheists, and men who protes - religion without feeling any,. bat there could be none in the admission of Roman Catholics who acted tinder a strong sense of moral obligation. The Honite would do well to Nil . eider that the privileges. of the Constitution.: were within time reach amen without religion, and withheld from a large portion of religious persons, devoted to the'dutiei of good subjects.— The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by thoving--" That th;ft Haase do resolve itself into a. Committ ee of - the whole House, to eonsider the sMte of the laws by which oaths and a declaration must be taken as a' qualification,for the exercise of civil offices, •by his 'Majesty's Roman Catholic' subjects, aod. whether inmay he expedient to remove such restrictions front Roman Catholics." • After the motion had been read from the. Chair, a -loud and l e general cey of " Question ! Question. was misled. • elle. t i. BANKES addressed , the House, aniwith some def. ficuby obtained 13 hearing. Ile. could not help feeling that dangee,was to be found under the -Right Hon. Gentleman's motion. The body of . Prottetatit Clergy was tleifilY intereStA in the question. If Roman Catholics were once admitted to Legisiatton, they would -contend that their Clinreh Was" The tight Church, and wish to overthrow the Protestant Estab/ish m2nt. It had been saul they had gone too far in cooeSsions , to the Roman Catholics to.recede. He did' not see the strength of that argument ; if they eeeild not go back they *,:vittkstaml. still. There was danger in gi7ing these securities Which our ancestors he'd very clearly Purchased,. and when, they , woeie told to despise danger, it wa s like t e llin g a M an to unroof his house, and break his windows when tie storm was ragirtg. 'T'he lion. Member most strenuously opposed theemition. Mr. W. BECHER vels' el to say a ft w Wards, in Which. b contended strongly that although the etliwts of the herd Lieu tenant might do IMICIfto restore harmony,' complete and, per manent tranquillity could only be given to Ireland by, this bill, 'which gave equality of right...l'4nd privilege' vu all parties: itseas the trite and only remedy ter Orangetstn e aid the other eiriralty which Ireland was now constantly athictial.—(" Adjourn, '• " question," " withfre,W.") Mr. LAMBTON4 with some difficulty; Obtained such was the impatience of the. House, while he stated that, in not giving his vote in this instance for the Catholic eleiros, it was -not to be 'understood that be hail ire thettlightest degree _ changed his opinions as to their justice ; he thought the whole. proceeding upon this occasion. nothing lalowapT has elm sw i e hare - far - 0 mockery and a - giVSII SteltlSlOri Wethe Roman Catholics of Irellintl, and me this account he would not ! in any way countenance it..--( Hear !) The question was again loudly called for, and steal- 0 ;0' were ordered .te withdraw. A considerable tirtiecliips4l !dire the Gallery Wag tletred, daring which the Members 4t-fe most $ anxious to come to 'decision. '• ' After our exclusion we understand the question was put, to adjourn.the thihate till Friday. T umbhe ners were.— Aye* - Noes - Majority A very stormy discussion then took puce, with closed viovrs, and tiw 01titnately divided upon*.the amendment, this House do tow adjourn." For the Amendment Against it 3.137, Aigibrity foe the Adjourninent By this division the question is virtually loci. The Wine adjourned at HALr4iter o'Cr.o4. So great has , been the demand. for seamen at this part, that th-eir wages have advanced to 4L, anti 4(. Ws. per,month, in vessels to Brit sh Ainerira.—( Lkerpoot .Ith:eraser.)