The Sun. — London, England, 1812-01-18 00:00:00

vi b e. deluged with. depredators, against wlinm they i ° ald have no proteation. He confessed that he .: 14.1 ong'been.extremely, 'scandalized (if . he might ...14.ake use of that termyby the_nutnher of accounts ' 7.ch had reached him of the,farniliatity that e)t 15ted between the officers of the police and the die-' dit hers of the •public - peace. This familiar' inter it o . t 'i'se was a matter of general notoriety, and surely a s t thust, in a variety of ways. have a thost deterior 'hgeffed on the public morals. It must operate-, o the thieves themselves, who could nor consider th emselves so sufhaiently as theymight, the objects oc Public.detestation, when they knew they could itt and enjoy themselves in' their favourite public i°tls'rs until some one shouhh tie called out whose. Me asure of guilt was full. It must also operate on l ,`eetficers of the police, who could. not possibly, en- . 'ertalt the proper feeliOg with which criminals 111 ght to be regarded by them, while they continued ' to Sit d own at t ir e same ta bl e w i t h them, and I to dri n k ts i t h them- as associate(' until the very i t '°lnent whin they pounced upon their prey.-e -t , he gave to this statement 'too high a colouring %which he really believed that he did not), .if th e fact were even incomparably less strong, it would never' hele,s.deserve 'arnmadversion, and de-; !nand correCtiun." He was, however, far from wish lug that the subjeet :of the nightly watch. should be omitted from the consideration of the Committee.— Ile thought it ex!reenelv deserving•of notice, and he IV ` 4B persuaded, that if the nightly watch wete put 1311 d better footing, much good would result. His c/ bjeaion, therefore, to the motion was, not that it l ‘ a s wrong, 40.altai . it stopped incomparably short ofsf' the object which it was desirable to attain. It well known, that in one.parish of the metropco Its, inhabited principally by the lower classes, .great good had been etfeCted. By parochial exertions ', e nding to improve the nightly watch, the parish of `'h'iits Church, Spitalfields, instead of the scene of. r 'ol, uproar, and crime, w Web it fornaerly.present ed, had. become ,almost proverbial for its extreme ° °d order and regelarity, If stmitar regulations Were ad o pt e d a t t h e W es t E n d of the Town, a great 'lea( would certainly be done towards improving the. 1110rality of the lower classes. Much praise was in it's opinion due to the. worthy and ,respeCtable,iudi nduats who had taken this matter in hand, and he "outaia be very harpy to hear that a similar public B e i rit pervaded the ,vlrole metropolis. He concluded I ,Y repeating his entire approbation of every thing ila t had been said by his Hon. and Learned Friend, a id Iris hope that an amendment would be introduc e the motion, extending the power of the Com mittee to a n i t igniry into, the state of the Police,, as t 0 t he • t he Nightly Watch. T he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not do ubt, that under all the circuins!ances of the. case, ii ' e House would have no hes.tation to agree to the ),„ ever) of his Right Hop. Friend; for having pant. ' v et) , attention to the argutinents of the two Ho nourable Members who had :spoken on the oppo-, side, he found that those arguments were di rected;not against the proposition ) . but. against its t nited natu re . It must, however, be considered, that the motion of his Hon. Friend related to a sub 3ect which could not be passed over in a mot ning 0 , and which therefore would not bearto be loath.. t I t i' with all the theoretical considerations Which his and Learned Friend on the opposite side had geSted. 'lndeed, the subject to which the Corn-. , I Z ittee w ou ld have to direc' their especial attention, [ heir one calculated to engage it Very s'kriously.—, • heir objet would be to prOv:de a practical remedy t) ," a practical evil. His Hon. and Learned Friend h , ; 4 'ght certainly differ horn his Hon. Friend with es t'eet to the value of the remedy, but he was sure th at t the Hon. Gentleman could not do so, after av ing enlarged so much on the advaptages in a par c cu ltr district, resulting from the adoption of mei - - i r t : e s...similar to those recommended by his Hon. p l , e tid. For what was the proposition of his lit Hon. I „ rle nd, but that a Committee of the HouSe of Corn 41;1's should conslder the propriety of enfoiCing in the p ar i s h es i n t h e met rop o lis, regulations, from ut hich Si much good resulted in the parish described b E l „ 'he Hon. Gent.? Certainly there was one quail cation of the Hon. Gent's opinion on this subject , cul l was extreme l y di s h earten i ng . Th e ex i st i ng vii was great, and was felt locally ; " but," said the Honoutable Gentleman," take care how you i r PP I Y a remedy, for if you cure the evil in the me-. iSi ° P °ll4 , you will drive it out in the neighbourhood." sN for his part he thought it advisable to cure the evil, if possible, where it did exist. It was, to be t i i n)ented, it should go elsewhere, but if so, Illiher it should be followed, and there crushed too. ,' .l- lotiourable Gentleman, in the same breath in I .„" L ch he described the happy influence which tile Oniations Spital-fields had there occasioned, de lit.ecated the adoption of the regulations proposed by Right HOnourable Friend, . lest, 'although ad tc;ritageous to themselves, they .might prove in-• f a - oi n vellieni to the neighbouring parishes. The v olt' was, that the - question before the House in ia,,-,ved the interests, not of the metropolis alone, e s' of all the adjacent parts. Such an extensive sub tlet Was calculated to produce much discussion, and 2 1 ;, r e jure was prob able that the inquiry would be terminated so soon as was anticipated by his n "ttrable 41nd. Learned Friend. His Honour. able of I'`tni~hments, and Learned Friend had touched on the nature . and. had ascribed a great part of t h( - 10 410 ral depravity of the times to the particular let; de of confinement to which prisoners were sub -1,/,h.e4 ; but he apprehended this was an inquly wish should fliS Honourable and Learned Friend did not p ro -1 should be referred to the Commit* now gr a r s "d• It certainly ' was not desirable to en t the business of a Committee of Penitentiau p c ; i ' n us ei, upon the business of a Committee ap treeted for another purpose. There had already b ee 1 a Committee on that subject; a report, had to L rt made by it, and notice given of a measure . ' it 41 . Proposed arising out of that rerirt. Whether 'Ott or might not be expedient to revive the tioctill:hittee to which he had alluded, was a ques svou,°Y itself; but he was persuaded that the House .2d not accelerate the acquisition of the benefits pl i "lech - needed at the present moment, by com eoe'ting the objects to which the attention of the t „, illthittee moved for by his Right Hon. Friend had as to be dire c ted. Hi s H on . an d L e arned-Friend . le th. `! asked, w h et h er i t was r i g h t to cont i nue of granting high rewards for the appree ' n sion of culp r i ts o f a wain class? This was a o rat e subect for deliberat e discussion. It ought not serviceable. lightly concluded t hat th e se rewa r ds w e re dis 7 ,vrinceable. it might be that they were so; but ithis was 'by - no means certain. tt might 'be - true . tthat the strength of the stimulus which high re waads offered on the detectionaar. veal offendeis, :occasioned -operating inversely on the detection: tof petty offenders. 'lt might, however, be true, that ;instead of abolishing rewards altogethereit would he' wise to extend them •to the deteetion •of petty Of fences, in order that petty offendets might be stop . - ped'in their career, and not allowed to proceed to commission of 'enormous crimeS. On all these ,subjects a variety of opinions must naturally exist ; •but he could Tay ,no means allow that the Coni mittee proposed by his Honourable Friend could be so well calculated to discuss those opinions as . one expressly constituted -for that purpose. With respect to what the Honourable Gentleman had said of the familiarity that existed between the Police Officers and the culprits, there could ibe no doubt that stories of that description had been constantly written and told from Jona- • :than Wild's rime-down to the. present Moment. No otie, however, could say that-that familiarity, which -was evidently net novel in its kind, had been the im mediate cause of the late unprecedented ouiragesa— 'He certainly did not mean to contend that becauSe 'an-evil had long existed, it ought not to be cor recttd, but it was impossible to ascribe the recent e increase of offences either to the -rewards granted :far lite detection •of great offenders, or to the familiarity which existed. between the offenders pod the Police officers ; 'because both those cir cumstances, so far from being new, were of very ancient date indeed. But when the Ho nourable Gentleman proceeded to say that the officers were reprehensible in not apprehend ing those individuals of a suspicious clierater, with -whose persons they were acquainted, it behoved the House to consider how far any extension of the 01)e --ration of the Police would be expedient, and how .far it would be advisable that they should taste up , :persons not for the crimes which they had commit ted, bot on suspicion of the crimes which they might possibly.commit. The itnprisonincnt of sudh persons could be but short, and was little calculated to be beneficial to themselves; or to the eamtnunity. Ththe villain who had lately disappointed the just vengeance of the nation; by violently withdrawing himaelf from tbe punishment which, awaited him, had, previouslyto commission of his crime, been ap irehended on suspicion, the period of his imprison menecould have been'but short, and the place of it calculated, according to the Hon. Gentletnan's own statement, to nurture every deacription•of cri minal feeheg. The particular outrage which had .excited such feelings of horror and detestation in The metropolis, and the perpetrators of which, ,the Hots. Gentleman said, had escaped de!ectien, .was still wrapped up in mystery.. It undoubtedly seemed strange, that a single individual could commit such accumulated violence. The probability was, :that he w rs incapable of doing so ; but op' this. subject no certain opinion cauld• yea be formed. It this outrage was actually committed •by tee. individual to whom he had before alluded, it was untrue to say that the . culprit hid not been found ; but cer tainly he most 'repeat, ' that It seemed strange to. him, that such' devastation could be occasioned by a dingle individual. At the " same time, as far as he had been able to trace the circumstances of thethew case, it appeared to be yet uncertain whether- . not others were conce.ned in this, horrible atrocity. But, as the Honourable, Gent le man had himself said, no state of nightly watch, however excellent, could have presented such a crime. Indeed he hardly knew in what system of police a prevention could have been found. If such enormous guilt lurked in a human breat, no system of Government could hinder it from endeavouring to effect its object. It might be &lose to us; it might be in our houses. The only security against such crimes was the mariner in which the general sentiment of mankind hunted down the individuals by whom they were perpetrated. In his opinion, tae general increase of trials at the Old Bailey was a much greater ground for the motion of his Right Hon. Friend, than the two horrid murders which had -been committed for such events as the last were not the more likely to occur again because, they had occurred wi hie the last three months. 'lt appeared to him, that what had been said by his Hon. and Learned' Friend, and by the Hon. Gentle man, was'not id opposition to the motion of his 'Right Han. Friend. As far as that motion went, he apprehended it was agreed to by every one. It was required by the present s ate of thenietropolis, and be trusted that those who thought that the inquiries of the Committee would be beneficial, u ould be cautious how they clogged those inquiries with sub jects not immediately connected with-them. When the Committee were sitting, if it were thought desir able that they should take into consideration any oilier subject, instructions to that effect might be given them ; but he deprecatea any proceeding in the first instance which would impede them` in their present endeavours to provide a nractical re medy for the existipai evil. - Mr. ABERCROMBIE Said, it war evident from the growth of crimes that the Police was inadequate to its objet. It was moat desirable, theref4e, that the Committee should be enapOweredao inquire of the Police the nature of their inadeqUacy, and to learn the causes to which they imputed theincrease of of - let - ices. For his part he believed that thecauses stated by his Hon. and" Learned Friend near him, , had tended materially to increase . the number of re cent offences. One faea lie knew, dot in conse quence of a visit to the. house,, a number of repre sentations had been made to him by persons con fined there, which went to shew that Other prisoners who had been confined for crimes of a much more aggravated nature, than thoie of which the indivi duals from whom the representations proceeded, had been guilty, had been liberated in great nUmbers.— He certainly did not state this as a fad in which he entirely believed, but the matter had been commu nicated to him in such various shapes, that', he confessed himself curious to kmoW, from the Right Honourable Secretaty of State how it ac tually stood. It certainty was most extraordi nary to hear the Right Honourable Gentleman term the consideiation of the causes which ,pre vented people from sleeping_ quietly in their beds " theoretic." The Right Honourable Gentleman must certaiuly have meant this observation jocularly, Indeed he had treated in the saine manner a very solid and judicious remark made by an Honourable Friend near him. His Hon. Friend had swirl, that if by a vigorous exertion of the Police, all abandoned characters shouuld be excluded from the metropolis, hey ,be frilled, and would perpetate offencea elsewhere. On 'this remark the Right Hon.:Gentle mai) had thought fit to belaimOroos. The intention of his Hon. Friend - was - only to shew the necessity of ascertaining the root of the evil—of ascertaining the defect of the present systetn. lithe House neglect ed to do this; - they;would be deficient in their duty, and he would therefore move as an amendment to the original motion, the addition of the - following words : "And also into the state of the Police of the metropolis." Lord'CoottaAws ascribed. the origin -of the evil complained of, to the Pension . List; 'and to the va rious other modes by which individuals of the higher classes, and particularly Members of that House, partook of. the public money, without per- • 'forming any public service. The enormous -exr :penditure of the State, to . WhiCh such abuse contributed, had the effect. of grinding, the lower classes, and of drving them to the, commission of offences, of which they otherWise'Would haVenever thought. Mr. SECRETARY RYDER professed himself•unable undeastand the bearings of the Noble Lord's ob- servaVionSOn the. question 'before ihe House: He . had .no objection to the Arhendmen't proposed by the Hon. Gent. provided hangiould 'consent to substitute the word fort her" for the word " also," in order that the primary object of ilte Committee might be that which he (Mr: ft.) thoUght a. great practical benefit. Adverting to the . questibn of the 'Hon. Gent+ respecting the persons alleged tO have been recently liberated from the hulks, he allowed that a .grent . many had been so liberated, but hedenkd that he offences tor ivhich they. had ht.enc - Onfined were' of an aggravated_ na,mte, , :He bad inquifecivrtieb- - .larty into.* subject, and the information w,hirlb,he had 'received led him to.eniertain the firrn peruasion that not any of the persons al:uded to lind returned to their former, depraved habits-of life., He.had also endeavoured to investigate the caus i e of the great and recent increase of primes, and, as far as lie had been *able to discover, it appeared to him that it Was to be-found in the •number of : .persons wlio.had)lately returned from transportation, and had nnfortunately • resumed their old pra6tices.. In joqi:...e to the Police Officers, he must heg e leave to notice. the acOttsation made.against them by the Honouralyle and -Leaned Gent. opposite, when he stated that they 'were never' disposed, to detect offenders, unless a' great reward was offered to them (or "that purpose.. • similar suggestion - had -some time ago beet's 'made to him frorm another quarter, He had. recourse to the best authority, and he had, been assured by the Magis trates, who were . surely the naot corni)etent. to give. an opinion on the subject, that no ,str.,:h indispOsition exi,ted; and that it any such indisposition were mitt nifested by an officer, he oeld be. immediatety dis missed (ruin his situation. He was convinced qitat greater efforts to detect offewlers had, never -heenl. made, khan those which the Police. o,ffi,ceis of the - metropolis had made during the list two months.. Mr. ABERCRoMBY acquiesced. in the alteration of' the word in the motioh.• .Sir S.Romt LLY did not wish to speak hatShly . of the Police, but he did think it a monstrous evil that so many persons had been taken upon that occasion, upon such slight grounds of_ suspicion. Among them was the nearest relative of one oldie: •murder ed persons, who on no ground .whatever was i 4 p- prehended and kept 48 . Wows in .custody, on the theadfnl .charge-of having murdered his brother. One way and another, there ‘ti.ere no less than 40' or 5 - 0 persons apprehended op suspicion. He.could not theref6re join. in the. I\ight Hon. Gentleman's rOmmendaiion of the Police Od - icers, when he con sidered the high reward by which they were Stimu• arld the number of .persons whom they.appre hended, in the most slight manner. He was , glad theiefore, that the House had agreed to inquire into the•state of the Polite. • . , • • Sir F. BURDETT expressed himself happy to find that a suspicion, which he confessed he .had enter tained, that advantage would be taken of the alarm . of the public mind to extend the Police of the me tropolis; proved to be unfounded. - As to the mo tion itself, it was,utterly impossible for him (Sir Franti Burdett) . to oppose it for an instant. In deed, lie. was convinced, that if the :system of nightly watch were made, what in his opinion it could easily be made, the necessity of any police whatever might be precluded, as the 'passibility of any crime whatever: might be prevented. The CHANCELLOR 01 the EXCHEQUER begged to be'distinCtly understood, that in consenting to. the Amendment he did not imply any impression on his mind . unfavourable towards the conduct of the Po lice Magistrates, or ofthose by whom they were . appointed. An Hon. Gentleman. had imputed to him a- facetious intention-in his deprecation- of clog gins. the Committee with any theoretical considera tions. It appeared to him, however, to be a very serbus truth,. 'that an inquiry into the precise nature of •the punishment, for any 'particular offence, was as little calculated as the recommendation by the Hon. ,M,...mber for Westminster, of a .Reform in Parliament, for making the' Police - twitter. These were the considerations which to him appeared theoretical:, Mr. SII ItIODAN declared, -tint 'after the progrei- sire increase of crimes fir a considerable after the peculiarly al 'ruled state in Willett the me tropolis had existed for the space of two he did think that the Secre'ary of Sate for the HoMe Department, the first Magistrate of -Police in the country, woul3 have so turned his mind to the con sideration -of such an jnipoitant - subjea, tit tt he would have come down to the House prepared with. ll a detailed reme4 to arrest the evils, - and to allay the apprehensions of the metropolis.. Instead of which the Right Hon. G ntleman had brought for ward t , he strangest, and (he beg •61 pardon) he mint say the silliest proposition that he had ever heard in Parliament. At a moment of the greatest public alarm, excited by the recent occurrence of the most mipreeptlented murders, the prayer of the night Honourable Gentleman to the House was to appoint a Committee to examine into the state of the nightly watch ! As well might a Comtnittee be appointed to examine into the state of the parish nurses.— After intiimating that lie had heard it rumoured that the various parishes of the Metropolis, instead of selecting able-bodied watchmen to defend their houses Iron) midnight assault, had appointed a i‘et of decrepid creatures, who were wholly inoOth petent to the task of proteilion, recoonniendedihe institytion of a Committee to inquire into the fad. Whom were the Committee to examine ? Those by whom the watchmen were appointed No, they Were truly the But perhaps the Right pourable Gentleman meant. to call all the watch men tan ln Ldon before the Committee, to have them examined - in the • same. manner , es recruit: were examined-by Surgeons, in order to -aacertaire - whether or not they. 'were fit for duty. He con-. fussed that he thought it • highly u.rheco ping the , gravity of the Right 'Honoutble Gentlena et, (and he must do the 'Right .Hnnourble Geotletnan the Justice to say, that he preserved his gravity and so lemnity on every-occasion), to propose at • that time of day, the appointment 'of a Committee of the House 'of Commons, Ito itiquireinto the state of the: nightly watchbf London. The Right Henourabla- Gentleman had not condescended - caw -to consadt on/ the subject, those -from whom he might have- derived . information and-assistance. -He saw a , worthy Al • - .derman its his ,place, a -Member for Ate City of 'Landon,' 'whose social ebd convivial. habits must have given him frequent •opportunities - eof aseat taining the estate of the .niOtly watch. He would a•k ;that worthy 'Alderman, whether the Right Hon.. Gentlernan'had'tequired hisOpinioh ? He would -ask •t he Noble Lord near him, who so welt desetaedto represent the City of Westminiter, , and who, ' he trusted, would long 'continue to represent it, wile-. ther any ofahe Magistrates among his Constituents. 'had , been 'consulted faa, he firmly believed that she Right Eon-Gentleman had 'never had the sligtate-t communication with one of the Magis trates, either of city of London 'or of the of.• Westminster. Many endeavours had been made to - - throw the odium ofthe late horrid -murders on 'fo reigners. Sometimes they were . 'said to .have been committed by Portuguese, - sometimes by 'vial?. -The Sha&vell Magistrates 113(1'1A-en great pain, t- she,v -that the •whole originte 3 teas -Popish plot., But reveet:to the suppoSitiOn that the murder was com muted -by 'foreigners, meta , ibody knew who the Gentleman was Mitt was .at the head of the Alien Offieeo of that . Gentleman's activity he had never doubled, although - certainty, -on a former occasion, - 'he had differed. front him in opinion upon political subjeals,'aafd had Wen moved in that House hiy proSecution, by the Attorney-General. It was na- - rural lo'-'sistipOse,a hat -a Gentleman at the ,head of Such an 'office• as • the Alien Office, (mak tat be Voseited with the S-acratary of State lot the Home Department at leaat two or three tiny s a week. 'as he right in saying that 'there had ,been no in tercourse between them for a year and a halt ) If so, - what- sort, of a Secretary stif St Eta for -the Home De pertinent must- that man be, who, -in the discharge of the important and peculiar duties of his station, never deignecho consult in Alderman of LondOn, -a ivlagistrarte ,of Westminster ; or the At-ad . of, the Alien Office ? The contrast between the importance of the-matter 'proposed by 'the Amendrrient to he Consiaerel, and the insignificance of that to which the original inotiort I.seaild have limitad the delibera liens Of the Committee, was truly whimsical. It was like atlding a loaf to a crust - of bread. rtwas as if 'a:motion-find - been - made'resi e&ing the pitch and „far in ttre .. •dock-yards, rid an amendineot . , added to ioquite into the state, num ber' and dis cipline of the whole of his Majesty's. Navy.--i. The nightly watch was a - very, trifling subjeal indeed: The Committee might diSpatch it its three hours ; but he defied any Committee in three months to investigate so extensive a 'sub je6t-ta 1 m—Trofiree - : And in the _Mean • TiTne — VV hat - was to become of the security of the metropolis? It was indeed a most extensive question. In tine year 1780,. alter the alarming riots_olathaaperiod,_he had . himself moved the appointment of a committee &+-to inquire into the nature and'charaeler of the Police Of the metropolis,"-ascribing, as he did, all the distur bances and dangers of . that time to the bad state of the- Police Magistracy. The repartee which was made upon him by the Lord Lieutenant, his Grace of Northumberland, was to - put him into the corn- • mission. An Hon. Baronet had justly complaint d of offices given in the Police as jobs, and not be cause the individuals on whom they were conferred were competent to the situation. Could any thing be more wrong than this ? He- was glad tcr hear the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite agree no inquire into the ,state of the Police. But would the • Right Hon. Gentleman assert as a Ia Et, that there had been no jobs of the nature to which the Hon. Baronet had alluded? Would he assert that no in dividual had been put into an office for which he was unfit, or confirmed in that office - when he was found to be unfit ? He believed• the Right Hon. Gentleman woulchnot venture to say this. The Hon. Baronet had, given notice of his intention to move fur , a list of the Magistrates and their qealifieations. It was a most unpleasant - and invidious task to point out the miscondua of, individuals, in situations of importance and responsibily. a With what-different feelings did is,e' mention the name of Graham, to Whom, in his opinion, the public was. infinitely ina debted for his -condu&' both as a Police Magistrate tied a Superintendent of the Hulks. - In adopting the -Amendment, the House would impose a most laborious task ors the Members-of whom tire Com mittee might. be constituted; but Le trusted that they would. discharge their duty with alacrity, con- Scions of the importance of the subject to the public tranquility.. Mr. STEPHEN thought the Magistrates of: the Police Office, Shadweil, had . been too harshly a tacked by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. Ile had no personal knowledge of any one of th , .-rn, but lie could not .help feeling that they had been v. placed in a very unpleasant situation, in a situation - in which they had a most arduous duty to perform, • and in a situation of such a nature, that it -'entitted . them to compassion. From all (he information he had obtained on the subject, he could not but be lieve the wretch who had destroyed - himself jn con tioement to be•the monster who had perpetrated she bloody deeds of which he had been accused; and couch he deplored his premature death, he sincerely idjuiced that he bad not escaped with itnpu ffity. -He could.not help feeling that the Right 'Hon. Gentleman had been rather, hard on the Secretary of State tor the Home Department, when he charic:_ terised the Right Hon. Gentlethan's i acceding to the amendmetA which had been moved, as' eing in s!une sort like consenting to a whole loaf bcing - acided to his little piece of cost. It appeared rather - era- ordinary that such observations should be made, after his consent to an inquiry, which the R Hon. Gentleman seemed to expeat would redound so much -to' his discredit'. Had the . Iti,ht Honkeur. able Secretary been conscious of this, surely nothing could have been more easy than for him to bile no posed the niol ion. Adveiting to" What ha I be