The Sun. — London, England, 1812-07-08 00:00:00

themselves with great propriety e.nd in , ray, and were not open to the animadversions psi ich been Made updn them. 1".r. - IZatit.TottAi.Cdiselailned all intention of -mil inedecrting upon the conduct of the Judges. 7,-Ir.W.PonE perfectly concurred with the Hon. 'Gentleman in the propinety of,giving the Learned JUtiges" r tlie Opportunity at laying every. doctf meat which they might think 'necessary before the He Was happy to find, from what had fallen from the lion. Gentleman on the other side, that no blame whatever was alielliAlitable to the Lord Lieutenant it was now univesally admitted that hiS mace could not, consistently with his duty., have neglected 0 attend to the recominenda tion of the Judges. One good, therefore, had re suited from this ,lisenssion, that all the calumnies j which had been thrown out against the Irish Po veil:went. at public meetings, and in public prints, ,were admitted to be without foundation,;—Thar Government, it was now acknowledged, stood' pule - and unpolluted. It was not for • him to prescribe the _tone Which fe . 2 Hon. Gentleman ought to follow; but if he cl-..c..5e to put off the question till next Session, he begged that it might be recollected -that it was the 11On. Gentleman and not, he.:011.. Pole) that put it off. He was only anxious for the full investigation of the case, .and be haped that if the papers came fn time the Gent. weetld bring it on this Session. He Was not now s..peviiing in defence o? the'Lard Lien- , tenant- (because it; was now con? - e:ised that no possifile blame could attach to hint), but defence of two Learned JudgeS, men, of, as high learning and charactenis any Judgesin:the:latd. The Hon. Gent. had thrown out some insieliations against the mode of administering criminal justice in Ireland; tn this -insinuation he begged to reply, that he be lieved more purity, more attention to the rights of the subject, could not be Conceived than prevailed: in the administration of criminal justice in Ire land : fie could take upon himself to assert, that• in no one single instance had either the Govern ,: went or the Judges been influenced by any con tiideration of the . religion of the person upon whose case they were to decide ; or made any dis tinction - whatever on that account. Indeed it Was allowed on all hands, that if there was any thing for which the Duke of Richmond's Go vernment was particularly distinguishable; it was . for the purity which marked the administration of justice. Mr. Pole concluded, by expressing his readiness to,. concur in the procluc!tion of any Paper that might tend to the complete elucidation of this subject... , Mr. NV. FITZGERALD remarked on the various and desultory nature of the lion. Gentleman's charges. He bad first accused the Lord Lieu tenant; he then accused the Judges; and he now keensed the Juries of Ireland. Mr. BARING was surprised at the warm and in temperate manner in which Irish subjects were discussed in that House. He recommended that Parliament should put themselves in complete Possession of all the circumstances of the pre sent case, in order to enable themselves to form . . a deliberate opinion on a question of such a grave and important nature. - Lord CASTLEREAGH admitted, that if the insa nity of Hall were of a confirmed nature, tile re— commendation of the Judges to commute the pu nishment of death for military service, or trans- Eportation would have been highly improper. But there were cases, and he had little doubt that this Would prone to - be one of them, in which the in sanity might not be absolutely confirmed and per manent, and in which therefore a sound and hu mane discretion might be exercised in substi tuting a mitigated for a more severe punishment: . The motion was then agreed to. A Message from the Lords announced their Lordships' assent to the Irish County Dridgesßill. CAPTAIN KINT;. Mr. WHITBREAD, in , the name of • a Noble Friend of his Lord Folkstone) who at an early period of the evening had postponed his motion respecting Captain King to ,Thursday, postponed it still farther, to Tuesday nest. 'His Noble Friend had been induced to this de‘ay by the understand, ing that his Majesty's' Ministers had taken Capt. King's •case into consideration, and by the hope that their determination;upon it would super - sede the necessity of any Parliamentary, applica tion. • • Lord ..81..THoirrE presented a petition from the 31.3..aufacturers of *Hosiery in Nottingham, against the Frame-work Knitters Bill. The petition was referred to the Committee on the Bill ;:and it was ordered that the Petitioners should be heard by Counsel in the said Committee. EAST INDIA COMPANY'S 13.EVENUE. A conversation took place,between Mr. Creevey and Mr. Wallis, on the subject of the Resolutions rgspecting the state of the East India Company's Revenue, which the forfner llonourable Gentle, man had given notice he would submit thisD4ht to the adoption of the House. Mr. Creevey, un, derstanding that Mr. WalliS conceived' he was taken by - surprise in the business, expressed - his di.sposition to r i istpone the Resolutions to Thurs day, to Friday, anti eventually 'to Monday ; but the Honourable Gentleman notTbeilig'able to con clude any arrangement with respect to the period of reading a third time - the-East India Company's Loan Bill, to establish the impolicy of which . measure was the object of Mr. Creevey's Resolu- tints, Mr. CaEEvEY persevered in availing himself of the right which his notice gave him to submit to the HOuse without delay,tbe. Resolutions which he had - framed on the occasion, and Ivhich were of such a nature ,that it was impbssible to deny the truth of OA allegations which they contained. — These Re.solutions, nine in number, went in sub stance to state, the prospect held out by the Com pany in: )71)3 ; the subseqUer)t detwioration of yht•il• affaits, and, their present situation. After dwelliog at ;;orne length on the necessity of put ting these Resolutions on they Journals, the Hon. Gentleman moved the first . Resolution, which was to the following effe.t !!' That it appear% to this louse that the British possess sits.hc lu.lndlia, at the time of passing the Ile; of the sad of Geo. 111.. chap. yielded a revenue of 6,900,0001.; and that after ?aylng all the e•Teuees of the val)ous establish men, ciTil s.,su ;ll:lit:try, the.surplus of that revenue was 2,039,1271." LX.YtihriN: Printed by 'PH, WALLT'.; derlare, that rtesolatiins pro posed by the Hon. Ger_ileinan _had bearing whatever on the till 'against which they were di rected; the only - question respecting whi:sil was, whether the necessity of the Company, the fairness of their application,. di' not comp etc— ly justify Parlianient in affording il.em th 9 they required admitted thatthc state of the Company's sorplus revenue was different from what it was_inl 7q3, but the comparison was very unfair, for the surplus at that period was calcu latedon a peace arrangement; instead of which, the Company hadsbeen at war alrapst ever since. By their great and - expensive exertions they had destroyed.Tippoo Saib and Ids power ; they had. brokers the Mahratta confederacy,and they had ex tirpated the l'rench from. India. They had there fort in'aterially contributed to the stability of the Empire ; and this was a circumstance anti a claim which ought seriously 'to be considered. Being convinced that the resolutions proposed by the Honourable Gentleman had no purpose but one which would he invidious and injurious to the East India Company and to the Government of India, he should therefore move the previous question upon them. Mr.R. THORNTON reprobated resolutions which called upon the House of Commons not to do thpt which by their vote they had already declared their determination to do. This was. the more especi ally Censurable, when there were no re.;.tular •Intions before the House. He conceived that the Empire at • large was s very much indebted to the East India Company, who had struggled through a'war of twenty years continuance, the result of *which was most beneficial to the general interests. Conceiving it highly unfair that Parliament should bc. called upon at a moment's notice to agree to resolutions which thev - had.noleisure to examine ; he would certainly support the previons question. Lord A. I ; ; IIAmit.ToN thought it a new proceed ing to call for.a loan to the East India Company, with the .oan of the year, and still more to charge the - interest Of that loan upon the Consolidated Fund. He-knew of no right in the Company - to call for such a proceeding ; but the House, he thought,' had. every right to inquire into the nature of the securities,. before they #quicsced in the de mand. Mr. GRAwT did not admit the facts contained in the resolutions, and maintained, that even if they were true, they would not lead co the conclusion which the Bun. Gent. (Mr. Creevy) attempted to draw from them. Mr. CREEVEY made a few observations ;TT reply,. and insisted, chiefly on the ground-that the Com pany had no claim upcn the Government for such a loan. The previous question was then carried on the first resolution, and in all the succeeding resolu tions, without a division'. The question for the third reading of the East India Loan Bill being then ,put, Mr. WHITBREAD wished to know from the Chancellor of the Exchequer what measure was in contemplation to make good the deficiency which mus, take place in •consequence; of the abandon ment of the Auction Ta::. The Cit...);cl., , l.Loß_of the EXCHEQUER said, he did riot see the necessity at present of proving auy substitude, especially as the tax was not, in point of fact, alf.ancioned 7 —it being his intention to bring it forward next year, in a more productive shape, After a few word's from Lord A. Hamilton and Lord Castlereagh the Ho - use divided— For the motion 5-1 Aga init it 8 , Majority The Bill was thep read a -third time, and passed. IRISH POTATOE TITHE BILL. The Adjourned Debate on the Potatoc Tithe Bill being resumed— Sir W. Scorn opposed it, as an unjustifiable attack upon the 'property of those who had an in terest in tithes. The supporters of the Bill were bound to justify so strong a measure, by clear and satisfactory arguments ' • but the reasons set forth in the preamble of the. Bill were, in his opinion, the most insignificant ever stated to Parliament. If the Bill should succeed, there was an end of the provision made by their liberality for the la borious Clergy. „If there was any oppression in the present mode of collection, the way to remedy it washy altering that mode, not by extinguish ing the tithe altogether—an expedient which, though it-might be more - simple, was certainly less rational and less just: - The-great object proposed by the Honourable Mover was. the relief of the poor cottagers ; but it would be a much more con siderable relief to them to exempt them- from the payment of rent; an expedient which jfai never suggested itself, though. it was not in its nature less violent than that which was proposed at pre sent. lie thought the evil did not exist, and even. if it did, he did not think the present an adequate remedy. He concluded with moving as an amend-. merit, that the Bill should be read a second time that day three months. . . , Mr. BARHAM thought that. the_ Church should in every way . possible be rendered a benefit, and not an oppression to the poor. Cu.stou l / 2 and feel ing bad controuled the Clergy of this country, and he was sure many of. the Clergy of •Irelancf; but where that custom and ,that feeling did not ope rate, it was of importance that some interposition should.be adopted. by the Legislature. The Right lion. Baronet surprised him greatly, when he spoke of the laborious Church of Ireland, as he had always- understood it was . one of the richest and most idle, owing partly to the want of a Pro testant- Congregation in the more remote parts. Many of the Clergy, he was persuaded at the same time, - acted in a most exemplary_and active man- tier. Mr.. HAwKiNs ( BROWNE thought the Hon. Gentleman confounded tithe with taxes and poor rats. He never would agoe that the property of the Clergy stood upon the same foundation with that of the, nobility and gentry—it was connected with and. dependant on their duties. He was against the principle of the Bill, for if one half penny was- due to any individual, it was as much a matter of claim and of right, as . if it was a sum _of the greatest magnitude. He believed that the evil of the poor of Ireland was tl3e high relit of rOMAS WOOD, or No. Maiden-sane, Coven-garden; and ..... 5 1 !) W. A SA7II i.rd• Anit.A.br#;..oia.astio I.lralo-rk fr: their cottages, 'but • that evil Wa.i not to lie pro yided against by Parliament, or, if it I.as, the eat exemption from tithe Iwould not. effect it. The only consequence of such a step would be, to take nroperty of the clergy in order to add to that G landlord. Lcrd DYSKUT disapproved of the principle of the. Bill, sus beingdestrue - tiye ..of a property gua rAnzeed by the Constitution ; . at the same time ho was most anxious for a commutation of the present system of collection in Ireland., If paupers were to be exempted hy means of this Bill, the Clergy: would demand their full tenth from all others, so that it would operate as._ an oppressive act upon the remaining members of the community. Mr. TRED.ct-t„ in a very improsive speech, set forth the hardships under, which the ,peasantry of Ireland laboured. Their distress and misery were such that their situation was worse trial' that of the pitipers in England. To improve the CoUdi tion of Ireland, he thought it was desirable that every encouragement should _be given to her agri culture, and that she should , be ‘.`.coaxed;" if he might use the- expression., to pdt forth all her in dustry. With this feeling he recommended the most conciliatory line.: of conduct to the adoption of Parliament, and hoped the:Bill would be suf fered to go to - a Committee. Lard CASTLERE AGH said, every one must be anxious to relieve the misery.of the lower orders in-Ireland ; but whether or not the present mea sure would contribute to that end might be a sub ject of dcubt. He. had, on a former occasion, deprecated the statementS made with respect to the conduct of a Mr. Morgan. , He had now tO state that he had- received a letter from Mr. Mor i gall, in which he expressed , himself to have felt much anguish of mind on account of what had passed in that House. He . denied the truth of the statements whiell ha&been made, and repre sented himself on. the point of conning to England to prove that. they'were unfounded.. He (Lord C.) lamented that. statements so affecting the character and peace of an individual Shodld have been Made. Ile felt himself obliged to oppose the Bill in its present stage. It'i.Vas not a Bill that went to make a commutation-of tithes, 'but one which-went ultimately to transfer the 'pro , perty of the Church to the, landed interest of the country. He was not persuaded that . the mea, sure was one which would prove beneficial to the cottagers ; on the contrary, he thought it•would have the effect of making him pay to as large, if. not a -larger - amount, tothe landlord; than he now paid to the Church. He hoped the Honourable Gentleman would not believe hi..-vt to be less sin-. eerely anxious for a commutation of tithes, if it. could be .effeeted withcut violating the prineiple . of property, because he opposed this Bill. The principle of the present Bill. admitted-, (there was no knowing how far it might be carried, and he thought it was desirable that .it should not go abroad)., that Parliament were disposed to relieve the indigent out of the funds. - belonging to an'i one particular cass of the community. Mr. TIGHE contended that the ehantcter of Mr. Morgan had not been unfairly attacked, as his Right Hon. Friend had only stated that which he had under Mr. Morgan's Own hand. He had wzly read a letter which he had in Mr. Morgan's handl writing. It had been 'contended, that no exemp tions from tithes were allowed by the law of the land, and . that the present system was not an evil. He could prove that there were on the statutes,- three exemptions, viz.:-Ist. The exemption granted to those who undertook to improve' mountain or bog-land. N. The exemption granted to allgrasS land. Here it'would be seen, that exemption could be granted to the rich, who undertook to clear the bogs, or' raise hemp, and to the rich grazier, while it was denied to the poor peasantry, and then they were told that there was no such piaci* recognized • by the law of the land. Ile did not wish relief to be. given without making a proper indemnification to the Clergy ; and if the House would suffer, the- Bill to go to a Committee, it would then be easy to point out what would be the best indemnification to give.—' He then went itlto d description of the distress of the Irish Cottager, and proceeded to point out the pe.euhar hardshipi attendant on the present mode of collecting the tithe on potatoes. The tenth part of a potatoe crop could not be put iby by the peasant in the same manner as the tithe of any other produce might. The peasant depended on them for the support of his family, and he was obliged to dig them up daily or to starve. The 'Proctor . then ek - me and said—" Pay me my demand," (one or two guineas, or whatever it might be) " or ex pect a citation to the BishOtis Court. I put my mark on our rick, and if you put your spade in the ground again till I am paid, I will prosecute you; or cite you to the Bishop's Court." That was to say, " I will adopt the mode most likely to enforce my 'demand, and consequently the mode most likely to distress you." Placed in this situation, the poor peasant was .obliged to sell, perhaps, all he pos,,essed in the world, to, borrow, or to steal, to satisfy the demands of the Proctor. He wished the Bill to be taken into cOnsideration, andthen they could coni4„sr what indemnifiCatiou it would be. proper to grant to the Church. • • Lord DYSART explained. • Lo s rd JOCILTIC stated, that he had received a communication frtraa .Mr. Iviorgan-, in which he denied what. had been advanced, and declared it to be intetion to come to England in the course of the week. DEF.NARD • otpyestieil hid, determinatlon to . 'support any measure that. relieved the *poor of Ireland front the oppression Of Tithes, and he canceived that no proposition went inure to ame liorate the situation of that class o'f people that most Wanted it than that now before the house ; ' he wished it to, be considered, that this sinail . relief was not to come entirelyfrom the Ciergy, as there are many Lay proprietors in every County . in land; who by this measure would alSo contribute. He did not think that the fill went , far enough, and should it go into• Committee, he should feel it his duty to propose, that all land that has nbt paid potatoe tithe heretofore should in future be exempt. 1 u the. County he represents tithe has been forced from people in nine parishes on articles that. never before paid tithe, and for the recovery of ruhlizted by WILLIAM ARMIGER SCRIPPS; South MUltOn-strect, Gros: thp Printr_ Lattars for the rxiot paid), must be ildkes,t3.l. _ . •Or'• HIGH WATIZII Ni" LONDON B!tII)ti.L: 10-Moh* - 3, Morning, 40 tuit. afo:r 5 six - :shillings tithe, aman has been driven to twenty six shillings cost. 'These new and unexpected de mands, these dormant .clams must ever cause content. His lion. Friend (Mr. Pi meIl) gave the other nightthe outlines oi - .a plan for the p-,eaeral commutation of Tithes, which plan he highlv ap proved of, and hoped that it 'would be adOpte as-it • went to secwe the Clergy in en easy and comfortable mode of being paid the full amount of -their livings, arid would ultimately release all cla:;ses - from the burden 21nd ' oppression of the Tithing system. , The Noble Lord (Castlereagh) on a former night, expA,ssed•hinisclf favourkoly - inclined 'to take the great subject of Tithes oil, der , consideration next Session, this induced him to recommend This Bill to be, for the pre .sent, withdrawn, with a view that its objektl might he introduced on an extended scale, some general and great measure for. the 4dvapgc of the Clergy and- the relief .. .of the people a; large. Mk. WHITBREAD commented on the evils of the present season. The last S;peaker .had,recu,rn-e mended it to his Hon. Friend to let the 'subject rest till next Session, in the hope that the Noble. Lord, who Wits anxious to remove the evil when it was not under consideration, IRA against red ov lug it when it was, would take up the business. — He however could wish his Honourable ,FrienA not to trust to. so frail a reed. The commuta tion of tithes was a - measureinuch wanted iu En z., land . ercii, but it was much' more wanted in Tre land. The most beneficial ellects .uniformly re , suited from their commutation. Hel eontende4 that what had been said of Mr. Morgan, was not only justified by the documents produced, but that it was the duty of the Member who brought it forward to produce that paper in illustration of his argument. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir T. Plomer) ob jected to the principle of the Bill, as it might go to the exemption from all small tithes. The precedents which had been quoted, he contended, did not apply to the present cane. if e.xemr tions, had in any instancebeeu made which were universally condemned, such ought not. to be fol lowed, as forming a precedent of wrong. Lord JOCELY J, among the papers he had re ceived frOm Mr. Morgan,. had an affidavit from an agent employed . by Mr. Morgan in collecting the tithes, which stated, that •on a valuation ,of the lands .held by the farmers being made, Mr. Mor gan had often struck off one-fourth of what w as his due, and soitietines much inure. He had al towed flleui to use the potatoes they wanted for the support of their families, without taking anY. account of them, or making any cr,re—and had in no instance prevented their using their early stock. Mr. WRITLREAD (Ud not find that the paper' which had been reld et) a.iornier night., was stated by Mr. Morgan to bea for , rery • and that admit to be genuine, ,the affidavit just produced aid not . at all alter the c:,3e. Lord GASTLVItEAgIi Undenitood Mr. Morg.nn t/ derty - tlwfact•s - et fuel io that paper, in the moit ctirect ntalnier possibil. With respect to whit lilidbeen said of hfs .up this subject in next Session of Parliainent, he thought it -was nfit fairly to.he expOted that i he should do sy, as lle• had said he could devit;e no satisfactory re!neZY,,,, for the•existing.evil _the Honourable•Geutierain, would therefore not -Withdraw `his motiop s with such an understanding. M. WHITBREAD thought the t-eneral answer of. I Mr. Morgan did not Contradict,tlie particular fact- Unless it was denied that the paper iA;bicii had been produced genuine, the. fact stated therein. could not .be invalidated.. Lord CASTLEREAGII observed, .that Mr. Morgan had denied the fact. M. WHITBREAD asked, if he' had stated tllc paper to be forgery ? Lord CASTLEREAGH, cou:Al not say that he hUd _ done that. Mr. PARNELL spoke at some length in favour a. the Bill: He intended next Session, to move a de; claratory resolution of the expedieney of a genc; -41 commutation of tithes.. If that met with the ar; probation cf the House, he should bring in a Nl' or gills to carry it into effect. His plan was, that a general assessment should be Made of all pro - - perty by a Commission, and that it should be ar, tempted.to commute tithes for land.—He shoul d propose that Commissioners should be appointed t°' purchase land, and that Government should ad" vance , money necessary for that purpose. ' Th e practical operation of these regulations would In the first place, to get rid of the great grievanc e at present complained of, and in the next place tP, .secure to each individual a pa.rticipatio;i of equo rights. Mr. HuME supported the Bill. cl The SFEAKEII put .the question, that the lico r " now" stand part of the question, which 045 negatived. 'He then put the amended question, 1 ", 1 15 3t the Bill be read a second time 'this day qlr° months.." The question was carried, and of course the Bill is lost. Adjourned at Eleven O'Clock. • • .• 1111 M-IS, At 11foccas Court, F3ere4adshife, Lady Ifereford, of a s°t 3 'i , Yestorda - y, in York-pla::.e, L Lady uk .en te u ant-Colu`' Wheatley, of the 13t Itegialetit Livards; of a. Dau4hter• ARRI On the 25th nit. at Bathed, in ,Perthshire; John t.ixedo" Kinneir, Esq. to Miss " at' On the.'Bd inst. at Si, Ainr;fs Cinlrdt, Dublin, Lieuten 3 ' „, Col.onelW tb ardlaw, of .the 7G ReAinlent, to the Hop. AP" - Lake, youngest (Linglqer of the late Visconnt Lak:t. ~,r . Yestertlay, 'V.:ie. - am John; ci , kst son of the Rev. ,3. • low, of I,:iosfield Esex,. to Miss Alston, of Che a- Cummon,. Surrey. ,The same day, at Streatham, the Rev. Jehu "ones late t Tw rohyklge,•Wilts, to Marc; clth i st daughter or, a Georg Evans, Esq. of , Surr2v. fro On the 7th inst. at St. Pa.. - ::„ra.s thecitev. „,, ell, itect, , r of East lforlidon,in the flaunty of Essex, to 2 ',-;; eluegt. dan,! .. ;hter' or the Rev-J- ame3 Birch, Rector of Corria, • bani, in th.! s:tid County. • DIED: On the 4th inst. in'tbe • Se olife, f . at his father's io" se ' Bow, ion. Coal-factor. set, Yesterday morning,' at his house in kipptr,,lrook -s-r ' Francis Lonme, Esq. of Sni7tworth Park, Norfolk. .s, •Gf a deelin!.!, • roots'-, St. Bartholonvl.t, aged 27, Mr. jir.i Baldwyn, of Hacizl.ey, n,..phew to tP ~. Treasurer, Richard Baldwyn,'ll.3q.