The Sun. — London, England, 1812-03-20 00:00:00

formed, capable of rescuing the empire from the pending dangers, These documents' were_in circu lation from one end of the kin s chwa to the other;: it could therefore hardly be asserted, they were not a fit topic for Parliamentary discussion, or th:n any Noble Lord should stand up and say, r hal that House was the only place in the whole kingdom, wherein such a paper could not be discussed. On the of Fsbruary, the Prince Regent expressed his wish that an - administration should be formed .•a a broad 'reel liberal basis. Such language he should take es an incontestible evidence of the wish of his Royal Highness in that respea. On this principle, what he should have the honour to sunmit to mem Lordships proceeded. He should now come to consider those parts' of the .Noble Lord's speech which referred to that important point, and which, in his mind, had been greatly misrepresented ; he spoke from his view of the general nature of the subject. His Lordship then referred to the corre sponding parts of the letter, to the effeel, "5t is on these grounds we must express without reserve the in possibility of our uniting," &c. This language, he thought, could not fairly be construed into a de termination that the Noble subscribers would have no persons in the Cabinet, save those of their own selection and nomination—that they would sit in the Cabinet with the person now a confidential adviser of the Prince Regent ! Without pretending to-know exactly the minds of those Noble Lords, he was in clined to suppose their meaning to be, that they would not conimue to an with the present Govern ment, those 'continuing as a Government; that is, ti •ev *mid not agree to form in themselves an aux iliary Cabinet t(i those whose principles they did not approve. Referring- to a subsequent passage, he expressed his opinion that it could not fairly be said from it that these Noble Lords would consent to yield up our Most valuable marl ime tights, to ten der America hostile to that power with whom we were contending. Such, indeed, may possibly be the,intentions of these Noble eersons, but until he should be.. - lilt asserted by theMselves, he could i ne ver believe it possible—act they could never n a measure so incompatinie with the . line of condud they formerly 'held'. With reeard to the question of Seam, it was in like manner asserted pf them that they meant to withdraw our armies tram the Pene insula. This he never could' believe, nor that they would ever think of such a thing without learning the opinion of that great man, whose name he had already mentioned (Lord Wellington) who had evieeti himself as much a statesman as a warrior— whoseephysical valour was not exceeded by his mo ral courage. He would now proceed to consider the subject, as inducing a firm persuasion of the . necessity of a total change in the present governing system of the country ; and in the first place, more especially' with respect to the affitirs of Ireland. This part of the subject more emphatically. evinced the necessity of a change in the confidential advisers of the Prince Regent. In his firm conviction, the su perior, the necessary policy Would be, .that Parlia ment should pass a resolUtion, sanctioning the prin ciple of speedily taking into consideration the Ca tholic claims; and that afterwards every thing con netted with arrangement or detail, could or should be conducted by the ExeCutive Government, e so as that against the commencement of the next Session of Parliament, something in the shape of a specific manner on the subject may be presented for its con sideration. Such a mode of proceeding would not pledge Par! anent to anything beyond that, to which he hoped there would be no difficulty of pledging them, namely, to a consideration of the subteCt, and to leave the Whole of the arrangement and de tails in the hands of the Executive Government.— This he thought would be the proper mode, and he conceived it to be what the Noble Lords contem plated ; and not, as asserted of them, that they would, instanter, recommend a total abolition of all the laws applying to this part of the subject. This be could not conceive to be their meaning; and he must believe then to be inclined to the counte nance of such regulations as may be sufficient for the Country and Parliament, as to the ob jeds proper to be secured, and that their inten tion was to incorporate in such Bills as they may propose, such provisions as would be efficient to the security of such objects. On these various grounds, lie was induced to hope that the expressed wishes of his Royal Highness may still be gratified, and the general wishes of the country gratified by the atitablishmant of such an Administration as would be fitting and competent to - conduCt the affairs of the Country, so as to ward off the pending cala mities, and to ensure its safety and prosperity. He was aware, diet in the estimation of some Noble Lords he may be regarded as an ignoramus in poli tics, for entertaining such . sentiments. He would request, however, that Noble Lords opposite would not interpose their eloquence for the purpose of pre venting a question upon that 'which he should have the honour to submit. And he had to conjure those Noble Lords and the House, that they would permit the Address to pass, and to take its chance With the Illustrious Person whom it invoked, In deed, he was at a loss to conjecture- upon what grosue's it could consastehtly be opposed. They Avould hardly contend that his Royal Highness did not express the wishes stated in his letter of the 13th of February, which was for the formation of an Ad- • ministration of Government on a broad and liberal basis ; or that they entertained such an opinion -of themselves at present, which his Royal Highness avowedly did not think of them on the 1 3th of Feb. Now that they had lost the co-operation of the com manding name, charader, and talents of the Noble Marquis, ti,ey could not deny their Administration now stood upon a narrow basis. Before he sat down, he would observe, that because his motion went to affect the existing Ministry it may be re gaedeci as an Opposition motion. Against this infer ence he would, in the name of truth,and of the coun most solemnly protest. He begged to repeat, it originated entirely with himself ; Noble Lords opposite had no right to impute to him a particle of ill will or hostility to them. He still retained his sentiments with respea to them ; what he now advanced as regarding their administration, seas a sentiment held by the Prince Regent himself,when he expressed a wish to enlarge the basis of Iris Admi nistration. Arid at that time thsy possessed, what .04 had since lost, the assistance of that able and accomplished Minister, to whom he had more than once alluded. Ile was a&uated merely by a sense of pcblicduty, and a wish to contribute, as far - as , - him lay, to avert these pending -dangers, the eearmiiig leynaptoms pf which were every day LLIor4 and more de eloping.--His Lord,b;i) concluded by moving, " That` an Humble' Address. •be presented to his RoYal - IliAltriessite Prince. Regent, to ,•ssure his Royal Highness - , that whilst we 'must deeply deplote the unhappy contind.. atice of hislNdajeAy's indispOtition, we entirely rely upon his Royal'7flighhess's witoutn , "4nd Princely : virtues, for the vigorous arid beneficent exise of those urre,tricled gxiwers . with which h. is now invested; arid that hii Royal High ness may depend upon our affectionate attacinnent, and cur constant and zealous support is all his mos-tires, for the - titaiiiteriarnid'of — i he r of the riat . loti . abroltd, and of its happiness and tranquility at hone. ' Humbly to represent to his Royal. Highness, that for t the attainment of these objects, it, appears. to its . to to essen tial that the administration, to which his Royal Highness tray be graciously 'pleased 'to commit the management of his aftarrs; should lie so cOntpo..cd as to LIM re, as far as posSible, the confidence and good s ill of all the classes of his Majesty's subjects. That in the present state or Ireland, it is, in our opinion, impossible that such iseneral contiikiice and - good will should be enjoyed by any atiminiStration, the chara&eristic principle of whose domestic. policy, as ;Nell as the bond of whose cliff iitetion in office is not only not to recommend, hut to resist a fair and dispaisionate consideration of those civil disabilities under which his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects, in that' part of the United Kingdom, still labour ; andof which they complain as roost grievous and oppressive. " That we therefore humbly eN7press our anxious hope that his Royal Highness may yet be enabled to form an ad ministration,•which, by cpnciltating the alr.ctloits of all de scriptions of the community, may most . erieetually (3:41 forth the'entirefesourCes of United Kinqioni, ilea may afibrd toll's Royal Ilighnets`additional means of conducting to a successful termination, a war in which are involved the saiety, honour, and prosperity of this Country." On-the question being put, Lord Viscount GR.OISTONE, rather in a low tone of voice,- repressed his hope. their Lerdships, would pause and seriously. refleet, / before hey agreed to the ,motion` of the Noble Lord. It'was one which, he thought, should be met' with a decided neget , i e. It appeared to him to iilipute some degree of blame to his Royal -Higliness-Tthe Prince Regent for the measure in question. :the Noble Yocount was proceeding, when— The Edrl of LAUDERDALE. rose "to speak to a question of order. It was a princil le iu Parlia mentary discussions that the name of_ the person at the head of the Government should not be intro= duced with any view of influencing the debate.-- Tee Noble Viscount said that some degree of ca lumn and blame was imputed to his Royal High. ness on the occasion. It, was with' pain he heard turn say so; but he must say the Noble Baron bad impuied the blame Only to the advisers of his Royal Highness ; ,but. here was an allegation of dired blame imputed to the Illustrious Person at the head of the Government. This involved an , attack against* the established privileges of the House, which went to prescribe that the name of the per son at the, head (1.. the Executive Government should dot he introduced by any Member for the purpose of influencing in any shape the delibera tions of the House. The' Earl of Level:root. contended that his Nos ble Friend did not state that any blame was cast upon his Royal Highness ; on the contrary, his Noble Friend had expressly declared that the mo tion of the Noble Baron Was not grounded on any public or official proceeding, but on a private letter to his Royal Brother. Earl GREY, in allusion to the question of order, said, that in a discussion in whiclehis own political condud was so deeply implicated, he must regret that any introduction of the name of the Illustrious - .Personage alluded to should take place on an occa sioni of such peculiar importance. With his Noble friend, be telt that nothing could be more incon sistent with the privileges of the House, or more fatal to the freedom of debate, than an objedion on the principle - that the motion may affe& the charaaer; the feelings, or the personal condud of the individtral at the head of the GoVernment. He by no means understood,' that the Noble Baron who proposed the. address had in any degree intended to apply his observations in the way - the Noble Lord opposite had asserted. The Noble Baron distinCtly guarded himself on that point, and had stated, that while speaking of the public condud of the Illus trious Head of the Government, he never looked to any other individual than the responsible advisers of the Crown, w ho, he properly stated,were answerable for the political condud of that exalted person. — This principle governed the deliberations of the Bri tish Legislature in the best times of the Constitution. What the Noble Baron proposed, was, in fad, neither More or less than a mode of 'expressing the sentiments of 1114 House, that the existing Admi nistration. was not calculated to ad with advantage for his Royal Highness or the public. It went to cast nu blame whatever upon that Illustrious Per son—if so, it' would be impossible at any time to move an Address for a change in the political ad visers of the Crown. Upon this principle, he must contend, his Noble Friend Was fully justified in in. tereuptipes the Noble VikOutil.—The ussertion of the Noble Earl-`was in faer still more cooneded with the real principle of order, namely, that the motion was founded upon no document, but upon a private letter. All he could understand as strictly applicable 'to the real question before the House was, that it was no official document. The question was in fact one t hich went to a consideration of the 'measures of the - existing Government. He trusted, therefore, the House would proceed with the discussion, were it only on the principle of so far asserting the undoubted privilege or Parlia ment. Lord BORRV.:GDON defied any Noble Lord to prOve that Itz! had directly or indite fly attached the slightest blame to the Pt ince - Regent. The Lord CHANCELLOR thought the present an extremely delicate proceeding. He hoped he might be permitted to implore the attention of the House to a lew words on the subjea. From the moment that an individual was vested by the Houses of Par{imperil, representing the realm, with the functions of the Royal Authority, he thought it clear that the name of that individual ought — to be . mentioned with precisely the same tespea as the name of the Sovereign. He confessed his astonish merit when, on a late occasion, a Peer of that House read a letter from a newspaper, and then asked a Noble Friend of his, if that letter was ac tually from his Royal Master. Such a proceeding, to say the least of it, was most novel ; and he would take the liberty - to say, that it any man in his Royal Highness's Councils had given an answer' to such, a question, he' (the Lord Chancellor), would never have entered the Council Room with that individual again. He was firmly persuaded— The Marquis of DOUGLAS spoke to order. He put it to the Nob!e and Leatued Lord, whether he was confining himself to explanation ? 11 not, be submitted to. the decision of the Homo how tar the Noble and teamed Lord bad a right to pro ceed. Tile LORD CHANCELLOR replied,. that he cer tainly had pot been confining hirnelf" to explana tion, not having before spoken. He was arguing on the general subject of debate, and he repeated that-L. Lord HOLLAND spoke to order. If there was one order of the House more clear than another, it was, that vi , hen a Noble Lord called another Noble Lord to order, be should. not himself be disorderly in doing so. The Noble and Learned Lord's observations were not at all to the point of order. The Loin CHANCELLOR contended, that he was striEtly in order, and observed that he would never again ad in a manner so unbefitting 'one who sat on the Woolsack, as to permit so much to be said as he had recently permitted, without calling to or der the Noble Lord by whom it was uttered. He did not allude to..the present debate, but to what bad taken place on a late occasion, and he de clared that doling thirty years experience, he had never known any thing so unparliamentary as (or.a Noble Lord to make a. comment on a Newspaper account, an,l— The Marquis of LANSDOWNE called the Noble and Learned Lord to order. With every respec=t for the Noble and Learned-Lord, he must say that not a word uttered by him had any reference to the question of order on which his Noble Friend had been interrupted. The LORD CHANCELLOR presevered in his de claration that be iaoold always object to.any refer ence, it; the debates of that House, to the Prince Regent, or to articles in the newspapers. Lord GLIIMSTONE' then proceeded. He expa tiated on_ the events which manifested the- energy of the existing Administration ; particularly the capture of the Mauritius, and cf Java, and the ex pulsion of the French from Portogal. Their ef forts had been uniformly successful, and he was not one of th- se who could attribute uniform sac cess to chance. - ---Under those circumstances, and being .persuaded that no wish was entertained in the country for a change of Administration, hp would ' move, as an amendment, to omit all- the words in the Address, after the word " indisposition," for the purpose of substituting others which the No ble Lord •read, and which were to the following effeet " We beg leave to express to his Royal Highness our grate ful thanks tor the wisdom and prudence with which he has exercised the Royal Authority; and to assure his Royal High ness that we have ohberved with the greatest satistadion the success of his Majesty's arms during his Royal Highness's administration of that authority, and the beneficial conse quences which have resulted from the assistance afforded by his Royal Highness to his Majesty's Allies. We rely on his Royal Highness's promoting, by every means_in his power; the interests and glory of the-Couptry, and the happiness of the People entrusted to his charge." Lard DARNLEY charaeterised the amendment as a side wind, to get rid of his Noble Friend's motion. In opposition to the observations of the Noble Lords opposite, he conceived it to be strictly competent to any Noble Lord to bring forward such a question as the present, and particularly at such 'a critical pe riod. He would not attempt to paint the dan gers With' which the country was threatened; but it was evident that all Europe was united under one head, and with one arm, against her ; and for aught he knew, at that very moment the only power in the world which had hitherto been friendly to us, might , have declared hostilities. All these evils were attributable to that very Admini stration on which the Noble .Mover of the amend ment had thought proper to pronounce an eulogium. But it was nor to our foreign relations alone that the attention of the House ought to be docaed. Let them look also at home. He did not allude merely to the riots at Nottingham, however alai m log, nor to the apprehended scarcity which, he trusted, might be found not to exist, but to that most important consideration, the state cf Ireland. Adverting to the observation of the Noble Mover of the Amendment, which had called forth the able and animated animadversion of his Noble Friend, he asked whether it• was to be tolerated,, that "the mite of the Sovereign should be made use of in • that Assembly as the Noble Lord had ventured to. use it 2 He trusted the House would 'give hint credit for the assurance, that even were his Royal Highness the Prince Regent in a less elevated situa tion, no man would be - more aterse to iwpu'e blame to his Royal Highness than himself. He spoke only of his Royal Highness's advisers, and 'he maintained !hat they were deeply culpable who had advised hia Royal Highness to write a letter, of which only a small portion of the evils that must, be. consequent on it had yet strewn thetnselses. The greatest of these was, the disappointment of the just hopes and expeCiations of the Catholics of Ireland. He said this because it was a notorious fad, that the person at the head of his Royal High . tress's Government had founded. his political im portance on a system of intolerance, and on his de claration that he would never accede to the Catho lic Claims. 1f the letter of his Reiyal Highness were at all intellig ble, it assuredly meant that- a - Lord LIVEUPOOL spoke to order. The supposed letter to which the Noble Lord had just referred; was not a ckcument bafore the House. It was not an of State, or if an aCt of State, was not in such a situation that it could be commented upon in Parliament. As a private letter, - it could not be not iced. Lord HOLLAND agreed with the Noble Earl, that his Royal H;ghness's letter was, not a document he forelhe House. But where did the Noble Earl learn the dot_irine, that a Peer of Parliament must not allude to any paper that was not regularly before the House as a document ? This was a monstrous proposition. As len might Noble Louis be inter dialed from quoting from the CVlssics. Was Horace a document before the House, and was any Noble Lord to be presented from citing passages from that Poet, because the House knew nothing of him ? If the Noble Lord still contended that it w,s disorder ly to allude to any paper, the existence of which was a matter Of general notoriety, let him spew the Par liamentary older in which that prohibition was ex pressed. Lord MULORAVE supported the objeCtions of his Noble Friend to the reference to a paper which was not a document before the House, which was not a paper of State, but which merely purported to be a private letter from his Royal HiOutess to his brother. It the Noble Lad persiSted in alluding to this letter, he would take the sense of the House on the point of order, and euddavour to determiue ther the name orthe.Prince Regent should thus be bandied about. Lord GREY wished the Noble Earl who had called his Noble - Friend to order had more accu rately defined his. objection. If the Noble Eart meant to say that it was disorderly to introduce the name of the Regent for the purpose of influencing the debate, in that proppition he entirely agreed with him. But if the Noble Earl maintained that it was disorderly in his Noble Friend, in illusliatiOn of a discussion like the present, to quote from a letter, in print, with the signature of the Prince Regent, although that letter was not immediately before tire House, from that proposition he must utterly dissent. Where would the Noble Earl find the Order of Par,liaine:;t in which such an ailuyiort W 35 inttrdiaed ? The p•esent question was not whether Ministers were. responsible for that letter. When that consideration should come befdre the House, - he would state his reasons for being con• vinced that they' were so" responsible, and that the proposition was actually made by their advice.— But all that was before the House.at that moment, was to determine whether or not• any Noble Lord had a right to cite a paper nut before the House in the illustration of a proposition ? The fact was, that it was every day's praCiice. How many, papers , Were there mentioned by the Noble Lords opposite, in debate, which were not documents before the House ?. For instance, in proposing thanks le LORI Welliegton; for his splendid services in the Penin sula, (and no,one entertained a higher oFinion of the value of those services than himself ), the Node Earl had cited Lord Ve r ,i!in,c;ton's dispatches : yec those dispatches were not before the House. How 'frequently were the Berlin and Milan Decrees men tioned in .debate ? .Yet those Decrees could never be produced as documents on the Jable. Their no toriety was always considered a sufficient ground for arguing upon them. Supposing the letter in question were a priVate letter, yet as it was. a mat ter of notoriety, that it touched on topic sof gre,,t public interest, his Noble Friend had.a right - to refer to it. It the motion before the House was for the production of the letter, would not the Noble Mover have a right to read it, in order to shew that it was material to vfoduce it ? Lord MOLGRAVB was anxious that ,there should not be a 'repetition of - the scandal 1807, on the In quiry whether the pledge of his Majesty was con stitutional or not. He repeated his obje6tions to any reference to the letter. Lord GREY declared that he was yet to learn that the-proceedings of 1807 were considerM a liolation of the order of Parliament. If the Noble Lord meant that the publication of Cabinet Minutes. was scandalous,i hat scandal was attributable to the Noble Lords opposite. Lord DARNLEY resumed, and contended that he had: a right to read not only the letter, 'but the whole of his paper which contained it, it he chose. ad the Noble Lords opposite disdain ,having advised the •letier ? He knew bow much they depended on their majorities, but nevertheless their political existence might yet be terminate by a breath. They bad' poi4oned ti;e Royal ear, and if they continued tote ddk isers of the Crown, would be the ultimate destroyers both of. the: , . Prince and ,of the country. He trusted that while it was yet time, the Prince and the cotto ny would be saved from the evils which await ed them.' A. least, no consideration should pre vent him from doing what he conceived to he tug duty on this important occasion. To revert to tlt main subject : his Royal Highness had been advised to continue the Administration which had ser.ed un der his Royal Father. What was this, but to imply that the_ Claims of the Catholics of IreiArul were lc? be resisted, not only at present, hut at all times Under such circumstances. it was impo , s'ble for his Noble Friends, without a complete s,a, ritice of their principles, to return to the proposi# . tion which had been made to them, any answer but that which they had returned. In th..t swer his Noble Friends disclaimed all -motives of personal exclusion. For his own part, he did nut, feel inure attached to party, than any Noble Lord to that House. He thought he knew men of principle' and talent who might he seleCted from all patties. To shew his impartiality, he-expressed his reg,re that his Noble Friends had not guarded themselve* in their reply-from the imputation which had been thrown out against them, of being disposed totally • to abandon the cause of the Peninsula. The reCel' lthion of that cause compelled him to lament that, at such a moment, the Councils of the Sovereign should have lost the only man who shed a lustre lir on those councils, and whose attachinent to cite cause of the Peninsula had been so warmly ,and so repeatedly expressed. The Noble Lord concluded by declaring that he should vote for the original Address. - Lord MOUNTJOY declared it to be his opinion , that the Regent's letter was dilated by a sincere wish, on the pat of his Royal Highness, to unite 31 1 . parties for the benefit of the country. Alter such 0 positive refusal as that letter hvd experienced, he did not think that there was any opening .fur an ad'. dress from hat :House on the subjea.- Lord Etis'isast expressed himself at , a loss to con' ccire what breach, of . order had -occurred in anf reference to the Prince Regent's letter. When Noble Lord had asked the Minister whether the letter which was in general circulation,•ptirportin4 to be that of the Prince Regent, though no doubt dictated by his - advisers,•and containing matter of the most important kind, , was authentic—when that - Minister ceinained silent •on the subj i -ct—but whet' his Noble Fiend had risen to say thaviie itad actually' received and answered that let ter, how was it pchsiblo that any Noble Lord could tie supposed not to be IA complete libetty - to refer to it in debate ? He repeated his belief that his Royal Highness had been advised to write that letter. No man entertained a greater. respect for his Royal Highness than himself—no mall would be more ready.to accede,to any wish that his Royal Highness might constitutionally express• But there was one pa of his Royal Highness's letter which be was persuaded - never_ came trrU' himself. It was that in which' he declared that he' had no predilections to indulge. Hii Royal High ness's whole life had been one of ptedil , Ctio►i9' The answerof his Noble Friends he heartily ar proved. The terms in which that answer woo couched were respccltul,• and 'evinced no . disinchi nation to do all which honour and principle would allow 'thin) 16 do in compliance m ith the Prince's' livishi:s. His Noble Friend bad been invited tO iurrn a,Governarent, in conjuneton with that eV