The Sun. — London, England, 1846-03-24 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, March 23. The LOLD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack at Five o'clock. WEXFORD AND WATERFORD RAILWAY. The Earl of WICKLOW presented a petition in favour of this line. CORK AND WATERFORD RAILWAY. A NOBLE LORD presented several petitions in favour of the Cork and Waterford Railway. IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT. Lord DENMAN presented a petition from a person named Robert Green, who is now confined in the Queen's Bench Prison for debt, praying their Lordships to amend the law for the relief of insolvent debtors, in order that persons imprisoned for debt might regain their liberty without going through the Bankruptcy or Insolvent Courts. POOR-RATES. Lord REDESDALE presented a petition from Tiver ton complaining that the poor-rates fell heavily on the owners of real property, that other parties were ex empted from them, and praying that they should be superseded by a national tax, and that if any deficiency took place, it should be defrayed out of the Consolidated Fund. lie could not exactly agree in the prayer c.f the letiticT, but he could not help stating that the proposed aw of settlemeat did not meet with the approbation of the country, as it would press heavily on the agricultu ral portion of the community. TITHES. Lord CAMPBELL inquired if the Lord Chancellor intended to introduce any Bill with respect to the levy ing tithes this session, as there was considerable differ ence of opinion on the subject? The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the case came under the consideration of the Court of Queen's Bench, and they were equally divided upon it. The same case came also before the Court of Common Pleas, who were also divided upon it. Under such circumstances, he con sidered it to be a very proper subject for legislation, and he proposed very soon to lay on the table of the House a Bill having special reference to it. LONDON AND YORK RAILWAY. Lord 13ROUGHAM presented a petition from the Archbishop of York, against the London and York Railway. The line proposed to pass within a quarter of a mile of the windows of the Archiepiscopal Palace, at Bishopsthorpe, and would cut off all communication with his farm-house. Another line of railway ran within a mile of the palace, and he prayed the protection of the House against such interference. It was not for himself so much as for his successors that he made the pre c nt stand. FEVER HOSPITALS (IRELAND) BILL. Earl ST. GERMANS moved the second reading of this Bill, and in doing so lie hoped their Lordships would pass the Bill with as little delay as possible, as it had been ascertained from returns that had been laid upon the table, that fever was rapidly on the increase in that coun try. The Bill was then read a second and a third time, and Passed. STATE OF IRELAND. Earl GREY, in rising to move that an humble ad dress be presented to her Majesty, relative to the state of Ireland, felt bound to apologise to their Lordships for thus; bringing forward a subject of such extreme difficulty, and to which he felt unable to do justice. His only excuse was this, that he had not found any other Noble Lord to do so, and he felt compelled by a sense of duty to introduce the matter. The measures which had been introduced with reference to Ireland, were, in his judgment, of such a character as to render it imperative on the House to take the earliest opportunity, after having seen these Bills, of declaring by their assembled votes that those measures were in themselves quite in adequate to cure the social evils by which Ireland had been su long afflicted, anti that they were only justified on the supposition that they were intended to give time for the application of other and more effectual remedies. —(Hear.)'' It was the object of the motion that he now •uhmitteJ to the House to call upon their Lordships to express that opinion, and he only earnestly wished that the task had fallen into other and worthier hands. But as this was not the case he had only to intreat their Lordships' indulgence to the very imperfect manner in which he might fulfil the duty he had imposed upon himself: In bringing this subject before them, unfor tunately, there was hut little need to dwell upon the un happy condition of Ireland. They had heard enough of that from those placed higher in authority than he was. The Noble Lord opposite, on behalf of her Majesty's Government, in introducing the different measures, had described the state of society as most awful to contemplate— as a state of society in which there was no security to life or pro perty—as a state of society in which the extreme wretchedness was most appalling, in consequence of the • partial failure of tho potato crop, a failure which was likely to lead to famine and pestilence, unless counter acted by the measures introduced by her Majesty's Government. This was the state of things described by her Majesty's Ministers, and unfortunately this was not an accidental nor an extraordinary, nor an unlooked - for calamity. It was but an aggravation, and not a great aggravation, but a chronic and habitual state of Ireland. The evils of that unhappy country were not accidental, they were habitual. The ordinary condition of that country was one of wretched ness and hiwlessnes. It was so described by every com petent authority, and no intelligent foreigner who pushed his inquiries 215 far aslreland but gave it this description.' It was a disgrace and a reproach to any country, a standing disgrace to England, that Ireland should to-. main in the position in which it was. It was re garded throughout the continent, he assured them —and they might flatter themselves as they pleased, but there was no foreigner—French s ' .Ger man, American, or Italian, or any nation of any foreign country', however different in form of government, who visited Ireland who did not turn and congratulate himself on the state of his own country. 'lt was a greater disgrace because this state of things had been create: by our own policy. The mere fact saved all forms of argument and was a conclusive irrefragable proof' - that it was the fault of our Government. Nor could they lay to their souls the flattering unction that it 111 S misgovernment alone that caused this state of things. They could not say that whatever state of things existed it was not their own fault. The Government of Ireland before the Union was este moat ingeniously bad that was ever contrived—it was the Government of a corrupt minority sustained by the su perior power of the Parliament of this country, and it triumphed over the good legislation of those opposed to it, and left behind it fatal and irreparable evils. No man could have a stronger opinion than himself of the venality of the Government which existed in Ireland be fore the Union. The Union, however, was a matter of history. .1-felt a century, or more than fifty years, had clapsr:d since that measure was carried, and for nearly fiftv years Ireland had been under the control of the Imperial Parliament of England. Another generation had since grown up, and was now passing away and giving place to another ; and he asked what impression bad been made on the evils of Ireland since that time ? Ile could not deny that many good measures had been passed, and he was the:first to acknowledge and approve of them. He believed that several measures had been adopted, many of which he hoped had contributed in some respects to improve the condition of Ireland, but in the worst and leading symptoms no improvement had b een ma de. On that point he could quote high authori ties. lie found that the Commission presided over by a Noble Earl, not then in his place, had said, the year before last, that a slight improvement had begun in agriculture in Ireland ; but there was evidently no advance or improvement in the condition of the labouring classes. In the report of that Commissions they were informed that the agricultural labourers still suffered great priva tions and hardships ; that they depended upon casual and precarious employment for their subsistence ; that they were badly !missed, badly fed, badly clothed, and badly paid for their labour. Anti the Com missioners concluded this part of their statement by saying—" We cannot forbear expressing our strong sense ef the patient endurance which the labouring classes generally exhibited under sufferings greater, we believe, than the people of any other country have ever endured." This was an authentic statement, and came from a Commission appointed only the other day to inquire into the state of the people of Ireland. It was a repast describing the state of things in that country before the failure of the potato crop, and they told them that the sufferings of the great mass of the people of that country were greater than those endured by any other country in Europe.—(llear, hear.) This .wee indeed a field for statesmen, and coming from such a quarter could not he without founda tion. Upon equally authentic information, he (Loot Grey) could state that the condition of Ireland was much worse now than formerly ; he meant that the whole mass of the nation were dissatisfied with the con stitution under which they lived.—(Cheers.) A strong, a deep feeling of hostility to that form of Government under which they were placed, seemed to him to be rather gaining than losing strength. — (H ea r, bear.) lie was led to that opinion by what he heard fall from the Right Honourable Baronet, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, two years ago. He heard that Right lion. Baronet say— and the statement made a deep impression on his mind— he said, in answer to a speech of a Noble Friend of his, that lie distinctly admitted that we held military occu pation of Ireland, and that that country could not be govewe • byd any other means — that it was occupi e d by froops, but not governed like England. This was a atatetoent inaele b y the Secretary of State for the Home Departtoent lle (Lord Grey) asked if that state of . things oug.ht longer n il ) continbue? It lead hine• m to infer een somethi wrong that there must ave . they . had pursued, and that some measures en the poli s tiff ere ,et in character were re q uired to meet the exigencies of the country. That was the inference which arose out of these pre esisee. He could not understand how a min who was in his reason could a rrive at a (211hrerit conciusi . repeated that a chang e was absolutely necessary. But her e lilajesty's Government proposed to continue, the mea sureg which had hitherto been pursued—measures which had ince•eases • 1 instead of decreased the evils under w hich Ireland ieboured they proposed doggedly to pursue. He as k e d how they could expect but that their mea sures would conduct to the old termination. Money and coension had beeen the whole policy of her Majesty's Government. There had been no lack of money, but it had failed to re- The statement he had made iome remedies, other than those Luired to meet the condition of Ireland. for tide state of things to continue with try.—(Hear, hear.) Should it be told ditiou of Ireland was in such a state )ssible for them to alter it, he would a libel upon common sense, unless, it in the wish of the Legislature to td was gifted by nature with great had great coasts and harbours — she had great water-courses—and, indeed, her great matunkl reseources were not to be denied. When the ' --t i evil. NIV'" ,•., ''that so ( < . - 7:ln 77 l l ; l Va i llm 'l'r i . i .e ih r re cil f j, :; (4iii- „.,sNidilt..o l ounl . 4 :.:,, ! -Mast..;.iiitS cond ~, <' 'that it i 00.41 ..poi '-.) < 7 aas that th.kt was ..,;.. .-....,..,140§244Lvas not s ' --- (121 r ' its Ireland resourcea. 'he THE suN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, MA!RCR 24, 1846, teople of Ireland were removed from this condition, ' hey would become better affected towards this country. Their dispositions were not averse to a friendly relation with us, but the misgovernment which they had experienced alienated them from this country. We see them in the colonies—we see them in America—we see them in all parts of the world distinguishing themselves, end taking most important positions where their energies and talents were brought to bear, We see them here at the hardest work, and their industry mid good conduct was most exemplary. He had himself seen them in that part of the country with which he was connected, and he had found them grateful for the labour which they had got. They were thankful, they were well-con ducted, and they were buoyant in spirits ; they were. not given to quarrel. To be sure we saw them sometimes rather thoughtless with regard to themselves, but we al ways found them open and warm-hearted, and an excess of gratitude, not indeed for favours, but for the employment given them by the people of this country. Why, then, should such a people suffer such unparalleled misery as they were now suffering in Ireland ? Was not this the fault of the Legislature which kept them in such a state ?—(hear, hear.) lie said, then, that it was possible for Parliament to in terfere with effect to remedy these grievances. lie was not of opinion that evils of so long standing could be remedied all at once, but he was persuaded that if the consideration of them vva, undertaken with proper earnestness and singleness of purpose, and without regard to preconceived opinions, that they could in a short time give evidence o f what could be done for the good of Ireland, in pro ducing a better state of things than what at present existed, as well as a better ordered community. He repeated, that if Parliament discharged the duty which was incumbent upon it, no despair should be entertained of success, for they might depend that the blessing of Providence would attend their endeavours. The fault he had to find with Government was not fur what they had done, but for what they had omitted to do. lie complained of their measures as being inade quate. Not that they were in the wrong direction. He thought that the means by which they proposed to carrs 1 out their intentions were ill adapted for the purpose. Ii he rightly comprehended her Majesty's Government, their object was this: It was to increase the protection to life and property in Ireland, and to secure protection to honest industry, and better rewards for labour. They con sidered these two subjects so closely connected as to be inse parable, and to make it impossible to say which was cause and which was effect. If the resources of Ireland were looked at, it would be at once seen that the great desideratum was security ; and if its poverty and wretchedness were considered, it would be difficult to deny that want of employment and the absence of re ward fur honest labour had much to do in producing them. Such a state of the law could only tend to increase and aggravate the existing evils ; no remedy that the Government could apply would be effective, unless a remedy was applied to both at the same time. Employ ment should be given to the people of Ireland by pri vate enterprise and industry, and by no other means could the Government hope to achieve their present ob- ! ject. These were the views he understood the Government now to have; and he also understood that the motives of the present Government, in bringing about an im proved state of things in that country were right and good, and indeed it would be difficult for the Government to do inure. Those measures of the Government were judicious and well-timed, and he had no fault to find with them. But he could not forget that the perma nent employment of the Irish people depended upon private enterprise and capital being ex tensively employed in that country.—(Hear, hear.) No eountry could be in a wholesome state that depended upon the Government for mere artificial means of em ployment. When they looked at the present state of that country, and the amount of em ployment given to the people by the Govern ment, they should see that it would be literally and en tirely inadequete to the purposes for which it was in tended. Such measures would accomplish no real im provement, unless at the same time the state of the coun try was such as would encourage the investment of private capital and enterprise. But this could not be expected until rereons and property were made secure, and that security established on some better and more solid foundation than at present existed.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Until that was made certain, it would be utterly impossible to expect that private enterprise to tiny great extent would take root in Ireland for such Security in any country was no less necessary to its pros perity than the existence of life itself. He thought that there ought to be some sufficient security provided by the Constitution, and discoverable in the foundations of society. What was the reason that there was no law found strong enough for this purpose in the Constitution itself, and in the exercise of the ordinary constitutional powers ? Until they had established this, they had, in fact, done nothing, They bad of late years provided liberal) , for the construction of -Irish works. Ever since the union large sums of money had been provided by the Government for the completion of Irish works, but he believed, nay, he greatly feared, that much of the money which had been granted had been to a very large extent jobbed.—( Hear, hear.) He did hope that the mea sures which might obtain the sanction of that House—he did hope that those measures, would have the effect of providing riore than mere temporary advantage—should they have the advantage of obtaining the sanction of the other portion of the Legislature. He believed that the provision for public works was in the highest degree useful ; but even these, useful as they might be, would never alone have the advantage of giving an impetus to private enterprise, and of eliciting that commercial spirit through which alone anything like a permanency would be given to enterprise in Ireland and the employment of capital for national improvement. Fur these reasons he feared they must not flatter themselves that they would succeed in their present attempts to establish good order and peace in the country, by the exercise of the ordi nary powers of the law. But the great object which they had now to obtain was to establish peace, and security, and con fidence, by the exercise of those powers, and not by the en forcing of temporary and arbitrary laws. He would now conic to the special object of his motion, and in doing so he was bound to say that he did not see, in the measures which the Government proposed, anything that was likely to produce this result. There was nothing in them likely to have the happy effect of producing unanimity, without the exercise of those strong powers which he was compelled thus to deprecate. lie was compelled to say, that there was nothing which gave him the assurance that the ferment now existing in that coun try was likely to be subdued by the measures before their Lordships, nor could he hope anything better from the matters under the consideration of the other branch of the Legislature. Was there anything to assure them that in Oct. 1849 they would be freed from the necessity, in order to obtain peace, from pass ing some measure equally as despotic as that to which he had alluded ?—( Hear, hear.) He would assure their Lordship's that his conviction was quite the other way, and he thought the great duty imposed upon them was to ascertain what measures were necessary to obtain the object which he had laid before them. This was their real difficulty, and he thought it was heir duty to keep this difficulty constantly before them, and to consider whether it was right to retain laws of the despotic and arbitrary character which he bad mentioned for the preservation of good order. He believed that there was nothing in those measures, when taken in connexion with the situation of Ire. :and, which would justify them in believing that any such re -tilt would ensue until not merely the officers of the Govern ment, not merely those who were paid for administering the law and maintaining good order, but every member of the community, high or low, joined in remedying those evils. In Ireland, on the contrary, the population were entered in one 4eneral combination against good order. Let them compare the difference between England and Ireland, when some great crime was committed. In this country, if a murder had been committed, and the culprit had escaped, the newspapers, if the culprit were known, carried his description over the breadth of the land—an hundred eager eyes were on the watch far him—all to whom suspicion could attach were taken into custody, hurried before the magistrate ; and in this way it was !hat the real culprit seldom escaped. But in Ireland the popu lace did not interfere to secure the murderer and bring him to justice ; on the contrary, the whale body of the people were banded to screen and protect him, and to such an extent was this feeling carried, that the greatest disgrace which could attach to an Irish peasant was that he gave the slightest assist ance to the officers of the law. The character of informer, were the name attached in Ireland, was as much as a man's life was worth. What was the definition of the term informer in Ireland as compared with the same term in England? In England informer was understood to mean a man who for gain, or for the pure se of obtaining a penalty against another, would lay an infornWm for some infraction of the law, frequently of the roost light and venial description. That was the informer in England. But what was the meaning of the term informer in Ireland? The informer in Ireland was a man who dared to give information to the officers of the law of the commission of crime. Their Lordships were told the other night of the extreme danger of giving evidence by the son or wife of a man who had been, perhaps, unhappily murdered ; that man was, per haps, dragged out of bed at the midnight hour by a hand of hired assassins, and in the presence of his wife and child inhu :aanly and basely murdered, and yet that wife or child, al though they knew the assassins by name—although they could well describe them—dared not do so, as, in Irish definition, they would be hunted down as informers. That persons, even under this strong provocation, could not venture to give infor mation to justice was most melancholy and alarming ; and it was well known that for the protection of witnesses is former years, where a man gave evidence on behalf of the Crown, in the case of murder, as soon as the trial was over, the Crown was obliged to allow the expenses of emigrating to the man, that lie might leave for the colonies, as his life was no sager safe in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Instead of eontributing to the administration of the law, they eely assisted in screening the offender. The sympathy of the people was not with the murdered, but with the murderers. i le believed that murderers were actually privileged in every quarter of Ireland. The House well knew the jealousy and saspicion with which the Irish peasantry looked upon any stranger or unknown person coming into their districts to seek 1 ,r. work ; yet he believed that there were actually well authenticated instances of men who, wishing to find employ ment at a distance from their native districts, actually pre tended to be murderers hiding to escape the search of the peace officers, and they had obtained work in the districts to which they did not belong. He had beard the Secretary for Ireland, whom he did net see in his place, describe well.authenticated instances of this kind as having existed. He thought it suffi ciently well established that the temper and disposition of the veopl e was not to assist, but to the art, the administration of kite law, and this was the cause of the evil. While that temper remained unalt ere d , i t was i n va i n t h a t th e y em pl o y e d Coercion Bills for it was quite impossible that they couldcha Coercionng establish Billthi s t, any tem tend temper and disposition, t isr d s o iti s o o n i and, \vere h t e h j e as s k e e v d e , re h adth suppress provi sionstbatertihmey@, of wereancoymaypaeill, while ledto the p adopt, wehoeindeencdoenatviuonured itii endeavouring to hued with the spirit he was endeavouring to describe ? Were the i,x is s t e i n s g e v l e a r p w e , a ro n v d is t i o on i s nd e u a e lc e u t l i a w te rn d to to r l e o c o o u n ci lopeo theupon t he people tn g English the h a s their friends, instead of as their enemies? This Bill was of a s,urce like the dram of the drunkard, who, in the fit of intole rable depression which succeeded his exce.msse.eass,urkeneww.outhldatbae 1 cab excess would give him temporary relief, arid to that ex- The fact was,. thethat the the spirit which caused their r,ale h reedar p e p s l s ie ti d or . the moment for commission of crime, but it had no tendency to take away greatest reason, and also by cape difficulty in the administration of the law. That such would be the result was proved by severity r i degreetyb e e notfr severityied l o n g enough (and without much reg ard rience. Had not measures of greaterdatetro employed) without effect? He found, in Baronet at the head of her Ma Government, ' G Right Hon. a speech made by the jestya in the year 1829, in introducingtootfhetHheousceatthhoelic measureii i which he proposed the removal disabili ties,i lad r t e he n h . He said that, histories ofthemat, in the year easureswhichhadisbo7 wadeop.titoedd ii that the Habeas Corpus Act was suspended, and the Act for the suppression of rebellion was in force ; in 1801 it continued in force, as also in 1802. In 1803 the in surrection for which Emtuett suffered began, and Lord Kil warden was murdered by ,savage mob. In 1804 the Act con tinued, and in 1806 the west and south of Ireland were in a j state of insubordination, difficult to repress by the ordinary course of the law. In 1807, in consequence of the increase of insubordination, the Insurrection Act was increased in power, giving to the Lerd Lieutenant the power of placing, by procla mation, any district out of the pale of ordinary law. It sus pended trial by jury, and made it a transportable offence to be out at any period from sunset to sunrise. It continued in force from 1807, through 1808. 1809, to the close of 1810. In the year 1814 the Information Act still continued, and through the years 1815, 1816, and 1817. In 1822 it was again renewed, during the years 1823 and 1825. In 1825 a temporary Act intended for the suppression of dangerous associations, and especially the Catholic association, which was continued during 1826, 1827, and expired in 1828. In 1829 a new demand arose for the abolition of the whole Act—but he would not continue this painful history—only four years afterwards, it was again found necessary, a short time after Sir Robert Peel came into power, to introduce a similar measure of the severest kind. That measure, or at least a great part of its provisions, were renewed in 1824, and it expired only four or five years ago; and now again, in the year 1846, they were called upon to renew it. Such was the result which experience showed to have been obtained by mere coercion. Such was the exempla they had ; and if their efforts were used in the proper direction, th e y wou ld b e a bl e t o p reven t, by rigorous measures, the commission of crime. They had the prospect of restoring real security to Ireland. He contended then that they must look further than they had hitherto done ; that they must look to the root of the evil, and see whether it was not possible to change the temper of the people, to effect a reconciliation between them and their rulers.—. (Cheers.) To make them friends instead of opponents of the administration of the law. This was the object to which their efforts ought to be directed, and it was the object which, if the efforts to which he had referred were honestly directed, they should be able to attain. It was true the task was a most difficult one, because they had to erase from the minds of the Irish people the deep impression of long ages of mis-government—they had to convince them that their rulers had both the will and the power to serve and promote their happiness and prosperity. This was what they had to accomplish, and he should endeavour to show what, with that aid, he thought they would be able to establish in Ireland. In the first place, he said, they must endeavour to convince the people that the law really existed for their benefit. They must amend the law both in its provisions and in its adminis tration, for both are defective. He was of opinion that the law as it is now in Ireland was quite inadequate, as it effected the poor man. It was so more especially as to the landed tenure of Ireland. This was said to be the fact by the Secretary for Ireland. That Noble Lord said, that the state of the law as to the occupation of land in that country was the root of the evil in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He (Earl Grey) believed that injustice could take place under the present state of the law, with respect to the land question in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He should like to know from her Majesty's Ministers, whether there was any truth in a statement with respect to ate affair at Roscommon; if the paragraph which he had read in a paper was true, it was most dreadful. There were, it was said, three or four hundred persons turned off their land, where they had been for years ; they were turned out to starve without as much as a place to lay their heads in. He trusted he was mistaken ; he sincerely trusted that the paragraph was not correct. He be lieved 7 that a resort to such measures was most unjust. He thought that when a lease fell out, to resort to such an extreme measure was a disgrace to humanity—it was a disgrace to civi lised life. It was well known that whatever little draining took place of land in Ireland was not paid for by the landlord, but by the tenant. He did think it hard, that when poor men, who had toiled upon the land for years, and after giving it a double value by the improvements of their capital and labour, that they should then ue turned off, if the land lord to whom they had paid their rent, had failed to pay it to his superior landlord. This evil was to be traced to the practice of sub-letting land in that country. A NOBLE LORD—That is also the practice in England. Earl GREY—That may be the law in this country, but it was well known it was never acted upon to anything like the extent that it was in Ireland. He had heard of an instance of a poor man who had taken half an acre of ground upon a plan that was called the conacre system, for which he paid 91., and from which he was to derive patatoes sufficient for the maintenance of his family.—( Cries of " Name.") This, he was informed, was a common practice in the county of Waterford. This poor man had a person over him who got into arrear to his superior, the head landlord. That head landlord, not having been paid his rent, seized upon this poor man's crop, placed a keeper upon him, snatched from him the means of existence, and he would not be even told for what er for how much he had been seized upon. But, in order to ascertain this fact, the poor man actually committed an assault upon the keeper, in order that the faets of the case might come before the public. Now this was a class of cases which the law in its present state could not reach. Now, in order to remedy such a state of things, he conceived that the Govern ment did take a step which appeared to him the most im prudent and injudicious that could well have been adopted. A measure of a somewhat similar nature was introduced by Mr. Sharman Crawford; but was withdrawn, upon the understand ing that a remedy would be applied ; and in the next session the speech from the throne announced that a Commission had been issued for the purpose of making the necessary inquiry. Upon the debate which took place in February, 1844, upon a motion of Lord J. Russeell, he (Lord Grey) took the liberty of expressing his regret that such a Commission should have been issued, inasmuch as it would have the effect of creating exaggerated expectations in the minds of the people of Ireland that would never Le realised. The present increase of agrarian outrages was, in his opinion, traceable to it. It had given rise to impressions among those who lived upon agriculture that they were no longer to be the tenants, but the occupiers of the sell. He did not mean to charge the Government with at tempting to stave off the consideration of a difficult measure by appointing this Commission. He did not mean to charge them with suck a deriliction if duty, but he did charge them with an unpardonable imprudence for the manner in which they had dealt with it. He said now that not a moment should be lest in taking the question up and dealing with it as the circumstances seemed to require, not in the spirit of a technical lawyer, but in the spirit of statesmen—not to arrange the laws affecting civil property in an equivocal and partial manner, but on the broad foundation of equity. A reform conceived in such a spirit was now absolutuely necessary, and he sincerely hoped the Government would set about it. It was not the mere letter of the law, which should be im proved, nor its technical provisions, but they must also improve its administration.—( Hear, hear.) A Noble Friend of hie, whom he reeretteil not to see in his place, hal remarked that. he ( Lord Grey) had gone too far in saying that there was one law for the rich and another for the poor in Ire land, but he would go still further and say, that not only was that the case, but that both were ill administered. Since 1841 a change for the worst had taken place in reference to this ; less confidence was now felt by the people of Ireland in the administration of the law than before. This was to be attributed to the hot and eager, and virulent partizanship displayed by the Government in placing the administration of justice in the hands of men who had not the confidence of the people. That practice also, which existed from 1835 to 1841, of exelading men from juries oil account of their religion, has been again to some extent revived. Any thing mere objectionable or more improper he could not well imagine. Better for them to put an end to trial by jury altogether than to countenance such a proceeding. No jury was far better than a partizan jury. A reform in the lass, however, and a reform in its administration, were not the only p tints which required their consideration. .ts long as the Parliament which enacted the laws, and the Government which enforced them, were objects of hostility and contempt, instead of respect and confidence, so long would discontent and disturbance prevail. He knew that in express.. ing this opinion he was going against high authority—against those who imagined that political discontent was essentially dif ferent from agrarian outrage. All the consideration which he had given to the subject induced him to say that that was a great mistake. He considered that agrarian outrage and poli tical agitation were essentially connected. So long as the cry for the repeal of the union prevailed capital would never flow into the country, and commercial enterprise never take root. It appeared to him impossible to expect political discontent to exist without exasperating the feeling of the people against the law. The enforcement of the law should be the great object of Government, but they could never bring the people to obey it, or look upon it with respect, until they induced them to confide in it. What, he would askewas the character of the crimes com mitted in Ireland ? Since the notice which he had given of that motion, another outrage had been committed. A magis trate had been shot. The crimes committed were not of the same character as those committed in this country. They did not proceed from a love of plunder, or from those motives which generally promote their commission in other countries. They were the work of private combinations and se cret societies. It must be evident, therefore, that if the rules laid down to guide the relationship between man and man in that country were influenced by justice, the people would soon learn to appeal to the regular tribunals of the country' to remedy their grievances, rather than to those midnight legislators. He said that the desperate fidelity with which they cleaved to this kind of legislation showed a desire on their part to cling to those for whom they expected a redress of their wrongs. Captain Rock and the repeal judges were obeyed ; and so well too, that it was considered by Noble Lords as giving evidence of the worst symptoms of the state of Ireland. Does not the fact of their being so obeyed show that, where they can be made to attach themselves, they are obedient and amenable to control ? A consideration of these circumstances led to the inference that to make the laws effective and well obeyed the attachment of the people must be gained. While the contrary is the case the laws will be power less, and a well organised state of society w ill never be secured. He now thought that he had made out his propo sition that political agitation and social discontent were closely connected. Noble Lords might say, in reply to that, " put down the repeal agitation, then murder and social disturbance will be also suppressed." Before that such a proceeding was attempted, let them recollect that that experiment has been already made, and not with a succes which would encourage its repetition. Even if they were to try and put it down, they could only put down the external manifestation of it, and the', too, by means repugnant to the spirit of the British Constitution, and at variance with the feelings of Englishmen. Let them remember, also, that the tendency of such an attempt would be to alienate from their ranks a body of men (his hoped a large body) who valued constitutional liberty. While they kept aloof from the repeal agitation the spirit which pervades the followers of repeal would not be subdued. They must look to something more effectual. They could not win men's hearts by force ; they must win their affections, if they ever expected to govern them well. It might be said that it would be impossible to do I his, or that nothing could turn them from repeal. No one in th it House could more firmly resist repeal than himself, but lie firmly believed that no universal discontent ever yet prevailed, unless there existed some grounds for it. The sufferers may be mistaken, but it was seldom found that a redress of real grievances did not remove all complaint. An analogous case occurred in Scotland. A discontent more hopeful than that which existed in Ireland prevailed there in 1713, on the repeal of the Union with this country. A motion was brought before that House to dissolve the Union. Did they reject it by an overwhelming majority, as the other House did the preposition of the repeal of the Union with Ireland, which he considered would not find a mover or a seconder in that House ? The result was 54 in favor of the motion, and 54 against it, and it was only by a majority of four proxies that the motion was rejected. There were seventeen proxies against the motion, and fourteen in favour of it. What was the consequence of that agitation ? Parliament set about remedying the grievances of Scotland, and she was placed upon an equality with England in every constitutional right and privilege, and the consequence was that all desire for dissolving the connection was removed, and he did not believe that there was at that moment one advocate in all Scotland for such a measure. Let them try the same system with Ireland. Let them adopt a similar mode of procedure with regard to her grievances. Let them grant such measures as Ireland would adopt if she had a Parliament of her own. Let them adopt the language made use of by a Learned Prelate in his speech on the Maynooth grant—" That they engaged, when they took the government of Ireland into their own hands, to rule her as if she had her own Parliament." Let him ask, had they hitherto governed Ireland h a i e s I t a h r d ms in aema that se u rw ofy regarding s p i r or atiWouldo thenr e registration an a corporation Irish Parliament have re fused Cath o li c emanc i pation in 1827 ? Would it have given ! m?would above all, as to the tith es an d t h e Church, that that Parliament 0 f voters i t have and, ' had done? Would their legislation have been the same? That was the test which they should apply to their measures. He must now mime to that awful and momentous question, the state of the Irish Church. He was well aware that this was a subject upon which he should meet with very little sympathy from almost any part of this House ; but still he should follow it up. It was admitted in ' the year 1844, by the Secretary of State for the Home De partment. that in every attempt to legislate for Ireland. the great difficulty which met the Government at even turn and every step was the Irish Church establishment ; and whatever Government proposed a remedy for the grievances of Ireland, they should be prepared to grapple with this , difficulty. Now let him ask their Lordships to consider what was the real state of the case in this respect. They all knew that the property and revenues of the Protestant Church were originally granted to the Roman Catholic Church. for the' purpose of instructing the mass of the community in that form of Christian faith in which the people would alone accept that institution —(Hear, hear.) But, by the imperial and conquering power of this country, those revenues were diverted from their original pur pose, and they were now at the disposal of a small minority. In a debate in this House last year, a Noble Lord opposite stated, that the property of the Irish Church amounted to the enormous sum of 600,000/. a year, the whole of which was applied for the benefit. of 700,000 or 800,000 persons; and that such a state of things existed in a country, seven-eighths of the population of which were Roman Catholics ; and the Noble Duke opposite also stated, in the same debate, that those seven. eighths of the whole population derived no benefit what ever from this endowment. But his Noble Friend (the. Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolstack) had stated another fact, namely, that since the Union, the Established Church in Ire land had received annually 595,000/. Now, just let the House consider these facts well. First, they had the fact that the minority of a large population, consisting of the wealthy classes, had received a magnificent endowment. The Presbyterians also, who were Dissenters as well as the Roman Catholics, had likewise been cared for. From them the bounty of Government had not been withheld; wile to the Roman Catholics of Ireland who were by far the largest in number, and to whose misery and destitution he had al ready alluded, the Government gave no assistance whatever. The Roman Catholics build their own chapels, aniPprovide for their own clergy, and yet these were the people for whom the Government had literally done nothing.—(Hear, hear.) Let him ask, then, was this a state of things that was likely to prove satisfactory to the people of Ireland? Let them contrast the scene presented by a Protestant church and a Roman Ca tholic chapel in any pariah in the south of Ireland on a Senday. On the one hand, they saw, perhaps, the Protestant landlord, with, it might be, one or two of his servants, occupying a cor ner in a comfortable building, and listening to the Scinturee explained by a well-educated and well-paid functionary. On the other hand, a vast mass of the people—a mass of that portion of the people whose labour gave its value to p r operty, that portion of the people from whom those magnificent grants he had just spoken off had been wrung by violence and wrong—that class of people might be seen in vast numbers, crowding the inadequate and mis-rable building which their scanty means enabled them to provide for the worship of the Divine Being; and those whom its limits were not capable of accommndat'on might be seen kneeling without in hundreds upon the cold wet ground, Sunday after Sunday, throughout the whole year. Let him ask, then, did this House expect that a people so treated c uld bear such a state of things wthout feeling a deep rankling sense of gross injus tice ? But this was not the worst part of the case he had to make out. If it were, and that they were content with having their property thus wrung from them, and that justice h a d b een dine them, in other respects in by-gone times, they might, perhaps, have less cause of complaint. But such was net the ease ; for in spite of all this amount of wrong and in jury, the Protestant Church still was only known and felt in Ireland as the cause of oppression and injury for the lest cen tury and a half.—(Hear, hear.) These were strong:words, he admitted, but not stronger or as strong as the case required, because one portion of the administration of the Irish Church —he meant the tithe system—was the most atrocious and ini quitous that ever e,Cated in any country of the would ; and if it was imposed upon the people of this country, they would de nounce it at once as a yoke which no peoele could bear. This imposition was denounced in the years 1787 and 1788 in the Irish House of Commons, in the burning eloquence of Grattan, who only asked for such a mitigation of this system as would afford the people of Ireland some temporary relief. His re quest was refused, and that refusal it was that drew dowr from him those memorable words, which denounced this tithe system as the worst law that ever disgraced the statute hook, and which called forth his indignant denunciation of the whole system of the Established Church in Ireland. His motion was opposed by the Irish bishops. and it was their determine resist ance alone that defied all his efforts, and which compelled him to exclaim, with indigna'ion, that to the Bishops of the Esta blished Church in Ireland was mainly to be attributed the defeat of every effort for the improvement of the condition of the people of that country. He denounced the establishment as grinding and oppressive in the last degree ; and he con cluded his memorable speech in words which few would now be bold enough to use, but which he (Lord Grey) might venture to quote, as the words of Mr. Grattan, and which 'were to the effect that it would appear that religion could not be supported without enormous weal.h, and that Christ could not be represented upon earth unless Mammon took Him by the hand.—( Hear, hear.) Well, then, with regard to the tithe system, it was only at a very recent period that a measure was passed for the partial remedy of that law, and which was called the Tithe Composition Act, and which eventually proved to be no remedy at all. At a peri d still later, another Noble Lord opposite proposed another remedy, but that was not until the people had taken it into their own hands. Let him ask, was this the mode calculated to endear the Protestant Church to the people of Ireland ? On the contrary, he would say that the whole system was calculated to impress upon the minds of the people a deep and lasting sense of hatred and enmity. to the Establishment; and they never attempted to propose a remedy, until an agitation had been raised demanding emancipation in terms that could not be suppressed. But all measures of justice were invariably refused upon the ground that the safety of the Church Establishment in Ire land would be in danger. Did the House wonder, then, after this, that a deep-rooted feeling should exi t against the Esta blishment? His would ask them to judge of the feelings of the people of Ireland by their own. Let him ask the Right Rev. Prelate the Bishop of Londi n, what his feelings might be, if the revenues of his see were to be given for the instruc tion of the few Roman Catholics it contained ? Let him sup pose the whole case reversed, anti that England was placed in the same position as Ireland. Ireland the governing country, England the governed ; he would ask how long would Eng lishmen bear with it? The answer was obvious; the same argument applied to Irishmen, and they should he more or less than men if they did not feel their wrongs deeply and bitterly ranklino at their hearts. The Noble Lord then re ferred to a debate in the House of Commons in the year 1807, in which an Hon. Alember, a friend of his, declared that unless the Government made some alterations in the system of the Established Church in Ireland, they might give up all hope of governing that er untry otherwise than by military force.— ( Hear, hear.) He (Lord Grey) had already supposed the ease such as that of the revenues of a Protestant see, going to the support of a splendid C'athelic hierarchy. Such a state of things would be a description of slavery to which no Fnelish man would submit.—( Hear, hear.) He heard tire Nobe Duke opposite declare in this House last year, that there were eight millione and a half of people in Ireland professing the Roman Catholic religion—that there they were, and they could not help their being Roman Catholics ; but, as they existed, they should be provided for. He felt that he had imperfectly expressed his feelings as to the invaluable nature of this mea sure, and how imperfectly he had described what seemed a monstrous injustice. Considering the state of Ireland, that was undoubtedly a matter of extreme difficulty, and a man must, indeed, have most overcoming confidence if he could, without information, as an individual Member of that House, or with. out the assistance and advice of many others, contemplate the possibility even of broaching this substantive measure to the satisfaction of the country. All he would now say was, that he proposed a perfect equality of treatment of the Catholic and Protestant. What was done for one class should be done for another, arid what was done for one religion should be done for another. There were various modes of arriving at that end. Some proposed that all endowment should be be taken away for the present purpose ; and that,'as so n as the existing interests fall in, the property of the Protestant Church should be applied to secular education. He should greatly re gret to see such a measure adopted. He had never been mails to understand the advantage of the voluntary system, but he thought it of very great importance that a large public fund should be made for the maintenance of ministers of religion, with permission for them to teach the people in the form in which they had access to the instruction in the sacred truth of Christianity. An arrangement of that kind should be coins to, but he should be deeply grieved that all endowments should be taken away for the purposes of secular education. The present system combined all the faults and disadvant ges of the voluntary system. '1 hey had a voluntary sys tem as regarded the people, with all the invidiousness of a State Church. He, for one, should not be prepared to say that all the property of the Church should be applied to those uses of religion. Ile thought that the Catholic Chu, eh should he establi-bed in Ireland as the Protestant Church was in England, and the Presbyterian Church in Scotland. There was in faveur of that principle the opinion of a man whom he reverenced more than any man now living—he meant the late Dr. Arnold. He reverenced him more than any man now in existence, and he believed that this was his view as to what should be done in this ease. He had no hesitation in saying that it was deeply to be regretted that such a principle was not now in existence. It was a great pity that the Protestant Church had been made the Established Church in Ire land—it was as fatal a mistake as was ever commit. ted. Another proposal, made by a Noble Lord whom he then saw opposite, was that a toll should be levied on landed property in Ireland for the payment of the Catholic clergy. He thought that proposition a perfectly just and reason able one. Another Noble Earl, who was formerly one of her Alajeety's household, asked if it was true that there were 150 parishes in Ireland .n which the rent charge amounted to no less than 59,0001., and in which there was not a eingle Pro testant. Tire answer he received confirmed the accuracy of Iris supposition or informant. He (Earl Grey) believed that ou the other side it was not shown that the statement was sub stantially erroneous. Ile had no hesitation in saying that this was a state of things which could not endure. As tire existing interes's fell in, a portiere of the property of the Protestant Established Church ought to be diverted to the use a-id payment of ministers of religion of such a kind that the Cathehee wou ld consent to receive instruction from them. He could perceive that an answer to this would be given—the objection would be that the Catholics would accept no assistance. It would be stated that the time had gone past ; that a few years ago the Catholics would have accepted their bounty, but that they would no longer receive it. As to that belief, he knew that if the assistance were given in a proper manner, and with due precaution, it would be accepted. They could no longer obtain the advantage they might have obtained. They could not attempt to establish, directly or indirectly, the right of inter ference with or control over the Catholics. Formerly the Catholics would have granted such a power. hut now the op portunity was lost, and it would be the height of madness to attempt it. lie believed that they would not accept of any a.sira ance as a direct payment to any individual clergyma n , but. they would take assistance if given to a fund to be applied at their own discretion. We owed this state of thiege to the unhappy error male by Sir Robert Peel in 1825. He still believed that the Catholics would take a grant, if it was given in a sum to he administered by some Catholic authority, to be applied by him to the building of chapels and houses, or in such ways as might seem necessary. He had always said that the Catholics were ready to take assistance if large and gene roue grants were made for them, excluding stipends. He had, however, gone fart her into details than he inten lerl, and it was not the time for trifling discus-ion. All he would say was that there should be an equality of favour shown to both re ligious.—( Hear, hear. ) They ought not only to endow the Catholics, but they ought to go further, they ought to give them the same social position as the Protestant Clergy. They must allow then their proper rank, and must reverence this Catholic hierarchy even more than the Catholic Requests Bill, which was passed last year or the year before. As a body the Catholic clergy were distinguished for their piety, and their earnest feeling for the welfare of their flocks, and therefore they might be allowed some rank. He could go so far as to say that he wishe:l to see Catholic prelates taking their places on the bench in that House.—( Hear, hear.) He wished, con sidering the state of Ireland, that the House could have the advice and asesistance of those who knew the Catholic popu lation, and could explain to the House their feelings and their l i wants. He wished that the House had the advice of those who possessed the means of conciliating the Catholic people, and he did not think that any danger would result from their intro duction ; at least it must be a timid person who could sup.. pose that anything dangerous would be the consequence. lie believed that the House was riot so easily led assay that four Catholic prelates could obtain any undue authority. He believed that the course of policy that they were row recom mending to Ireland was opposed to their feelings. He was prepared to find that his motion met with little support in that ' House. He was prepared to see the address he was about to more thrown out by a great and overwhelming majority, but I many Nears would il(r elawe before its essential features would become the law of the country. As long as he had been in public life, he had ample reasons for saying that he had seen that any case resting on a solid foundation of truth and justice was sure in the snd to get on ; justice and reason were sure to prevail. He remembered nothing more discouraging in its appearance than the Bill for Catholic Emancipation, in the year 1827, but that measure had become the law of the land. At the same time free trade seemed altogether impossible, and those who advocated the opinion which he wished to apply to the commercial regulations of the conntry—e principle which cabinet philoso l hers had advocated—were regarded as persons whom it was not worth while to answer; and when they made the slightest allusion to any alteration in coin, they could not muster more vote: than from a dozen to twenty. Nineteen years had since elapsed ; he had lived to see the question, year by year advancing, till now it was at its final time; and if it was still doomed to be refused — (Hear, hear)—it was only for a short period, for they were in sight of the goal. In the same way it was with every measure having regard to any alteration in the policy we pursue towards Ireland with regard to her church, but it might now he seen that the time was not very far distant when that church would he recognised. That time was advancing rapidly; he could see it in the tone of the debates last year ; and in the speech of the Noble Duke opposite, in his arguments in favour of the May- Rooth grant, he could sae the evidence of the progress of this measure. In the minds of those who advocated justice to Ireland in this matter no change of opinions had occurred, but he heard of frequent and substantial changes on the other , aide. He saw men, who had come to Parliament with opinions ,of a different nature, were inclined to adopt this now ; but above all, he knew its progress in private conversation. They all knew, and could not fail to hear in private conversation, that the state of the Irish Church was unanimously admitted to be such as ought never to exist in a civilised country. It was deeply to be regretted that a difference was ever made, and an adjustment of that difference was earnestly to he desired. It was true that he heard such language followed up by the ation that reform, however desirable, was rendered im possible by the prejudices of England and Scotland ; which were an strong that they would not be able to carry a measure of that description. That was a question very important to consider, but language of this sort ought not to be adopted, nor should such principles be acted upon. A man of true honesty of thinking would say, that it was right that this question should be proposed, as it was only by being pro posed and discussed that they could hope for success. If lan guage of that sort were to be used, it would be unjust to address it to his countrymen. They had, it was true, strong prejudices, and he was very well aware very deep •rooted prejudices, but at the same time he knew that the language of reason and justice was never addressed to them in vain, and if they went wrong in this matter it would be the fault of those who had to guide them right. If rho-e who took tart in public affairs, and to whose advice and guidance the nation was accustomed to look, and who, standing in this high and responsible sit ua tion, from want of discernment of what was required, or from want of courage to state their opinions from fear of incurring a personal opposition by stemming the current of public opinion —if such now, from such opinions, condescend to give up the position and privileges of Englishmen, it might be long before they were disturbed, but it might be too late for the safety of the Empire to do justice to Ireland, when they thoueet they saw the necessity. He would fain hope for better things; that in this debate they would take a lesson from the years 1829 and 1846 that they would not be again guilty of this disingenuousness, and of that want of foresight of corning events, which the result has shown might justly be imputed to them for their conduct in 1829, and they would not, for the third time, place themselves in that most painful situation in which they were compelled to sacrifice for a great emergency the dearest interests of the country, or incur the just reproach of having deceived their followers, and of having been the per sons to carry the measure whic:i formerly they had ever been first in resisting. He hoped he should hot again see any such state of things; he trusted that now it was time to consider the state of Leland that they would acknowledge the necessity of applying remedies more effectual to quell the evils which were now inflicted upon them. The address which he would lay before them did not call upon them to express any opinion ; he felt it would not be right, as he did not stand in the position of sufficient authority to give him any right to ask them to come to so momentous a decision. At the same them, he felt himself bound fully and fairly to express to them his long and unaltered opinions—opinions which he had en. tertained from the first moment he had entered that House. Although his address did not call for an expression of opinion on any particular question, if there were other remedies, better calculated to meet the evils laid before the House, let them be proposed and discussed; he was confident he would be most happy to hear them, and no effort of his should be want ing to give the most patient, full, and fair consider Aion. They were called upon to express, by an address to her Majevy, their conviction that Ireland could not be left in the state in which it was. Something must be done, and if the remedies he proposed were wrong, others might be adopted better calcu lated to secure the interest of the empire. He trusted that the great crisis was at an end—he believed that there was one way, and, in his opinion, only one way of appeasing and allaying the discontent ef the Irish nation, and of gradually restoring order anti tranquillity to that disorganised portion of the empire. There was one way, and only one way, and that was not to grant repeal, and not to follow the advice of the Right Rev. Prelate. The plan was simple—it was to legislate for the Irish as an Irish Parlia ment; to act fairly and consistently, and they could do no wrong. If they did not, they would see nothing but the miserable continuance of misery and destitution. Whenever the accidental failure of a crop occurred, it would cause famine and pestilence, only to be awarded by the interference of Par liament. They would see outrages but imperfectly prevented by severe and troublesome methods, until at last would come some frightful catastrophe, fatal alike to the dominion of the English and the safety of the empire. This was what they had to do, and he (Lord Grey) asked their Lordships to pledge themselves to do what in them lay to avert this fearful result, by agreeing to the address to her Majesty, which he would now take leave to read to them. (The Noble Earl concluded by proposing the address to her Majesty, which is contained in an other column. )_ On the question being put, The Duke of WELLINGTON rose. It was not his inten tion to follow the Noble Earl through his very able speech. Much of it was fouraded on fact, un fortunately, and that part of it therefore he was unable to answer. But really hit did not think that in that other part to which the N We Earl referred. --lie meant the act of her Majesty's Government in respect to the nomination of a Conninissiou to hiquire into the relati,ns hstween landlords and teearos, and the socaeure which had been adopted in consequence of the nomination of that Committee. He thought diet the Noble Earl would admit that it was not. quite fair to say that his Right Hon. Friend, when he nemi , nated this Commission, admitted either the justice or propriety of the motion un ler consideration at the tie e whisili related to the fixity of tenure. But he would now confine himself to the address moved for by this Noble Earl. Similar addressee had been presented frequently both in the last and at. the commence ment of this session. Parliament always expressed itself ready to co-operate with her Majesty's Government in every tnea , ure which could tend to the pr. sperity of Ireland. It was impossible he could concur in the address moved by the Noble Earl ; and, considering the speech he made, more particularly the latter part of it, namely, his admission that his object was to found on that address a system of measures which In u , t end in the extinction of the Church of England in ;reit - rid, the Noble Earl had spoken throughout as if this were an open question—as if Parliament had done nothing on the subject —as if it were a question on which measures could be adopteel without the smallest difficulty, or without any breach of furmer arrangements or compacts. If ever there was a point which was made the object of a special compact, it was the existence of the Church of England in Ireland. That was a distinctive object which two Parliaments had agreed in carrying out as -perpetual. This was one of the articles which they were dis tinctly pledged to maintain. The Noble Earl said that he did not desire them to repeal the union, but that which he de sired, he stated, was that they should adopt the address which was to lead to the putting down the Church of England in Ireland, which was to deprive the Church of England in Ireland of its present possessions, and which must end in the repeal of any treaty of union, which the Noble Earl stated it was not his desire should be conceded. The Irish Parliament was, as a body, c pable of legislating on that subject. It was because they had tortnally agreed to the union that Parliament ventured on the consideration of the question, under the auspiees of the Government of Geoige 111., and than it was agreed and stipulated that the sth article, by which the Church of England in Ireland was to be uniesil for ever to the Church in this country, was to be for the future maintained. They could not place the Irish nation and the Irish Parliament in the same situation in which they both stood at the time that compact was made, and he said, therefore, that they could not depart from that compact without a breach of the engagement then entered into. He maintained that they had no power upon the subject, and therefore, he recorn 'needed their Lordships not to agree to the address proposed to them by the Noble Earl. Undoubtedly, measures could be adopted calculated to benefit Ireland, and that and the other Huuse of Parliament ought in every case to adopt measures, and to legislate for the good of Ireland, whenever the in terests of that country came under their consideration. He would say to their Lordships that in his opinion Parliament had done its duty on that subject. He believed that the Noble Lord did not deny that. He believed that there never was a country which hail so advanced in improvements of all descrip tions as Ireland since the psriod of the union.---( Hear, hear.) He would not go into details on this subject, because perhaps Noble Lords would speak in the course of the evening more capable than he was of doing so, but it was quite remarkable ' in every way, in trade, in commerce, in shipping, in revenue, in the customs, in the excise, arid indeed in every thing, the in crease had been enormous, but the Noble Lord said in the earlier part of his speech that foreigners, who went to Ireland, expatiated on the miseries which they witnessed there. It was true there was misery and great poverty there, as there was in other countries, but yet in Ireland there was a vast capital, there were great riches; Ireland was at that moment setting an example to the world, an example which could be imitated in few countries of Europe, she was laying out mil lions at this moment in the construction of railways, at the pri vate expense of individuals. There were, it was true, railways in the course of coestruction in the other countries of Europe, but how were they constructed? At the expense of Govern , merit ; not one of them was constructed at the expense of pri vate individuals. It was in this country that they were con structed at the expense of private individuals—only in this country and in Ireland—in every other country in the world they were constructed at the expense of the public treasure. Now, he did not much care whether this capital was the pro perty of Irishmen, or whether it had been borrowed in this country. If it were sent. there, it was sent on the credit of Irishmen ; it' it were the pr perry ofilrishmen, (and he hoped it was) why it showed the vast improvement in that country, to which at least the Noble Lord ought to have given Parliament and those who governed that country some credit for. If it were the property of England and lent to Ireland, it showed there was some credit in Ireland, and that men hail little more confidence in the restoration, and continued existence of peace w t h o a u n l d t ( h i o e Noble eeverything h Ld had i r o ,g r i nits . p w H e e w r to oas bring e t h forward a rd Govern ment mea sures which would be calculated to give satisfaction to that country, ar d to irßur,• public tranquillity. Now, he thought that there was evidence to show hat the Noble Earl was a little mistaken as to the very great dislike which Irishmen en tertained towards the Established Church of England inilre land. He thought it was a very remarkable circumstance, but it was a fact that their Lordships would Lind, on searching the records of Parliament. that after the Irish Parliament and the English Parliament had been endeavouring to discover the mode of enabling the Irish Roman Catholics to testify their allegiance to their Sovereign, by striking out from the oaths the oath of supremacy, and all reference to the peculiar Roman Catholic doctrines of transubstantiation, and everything else, those parts of the declaration or oath which had reference to the property of the Church, or to the existencb,,f the Cisurcte were inserted in the oaths on the petitions of the Roman Catholics themselves. Those petitions commenced in 1805 ; they went on from that time to 18:26; and on the passing of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill, the Roman Catholics themselves repeatedly denied that they had any wish to deprive the Church of England of her property, or injure in any manner the privileges of possessions she held in Ireland. All they desired was the removal of civil disabilities, and that they might stand in the same manner as others of her Majesty's subjects under the laws and government of the country. He said, therefore, that he thought it not very probable that there should be a total change of sentiment on I that subject. It was very true that some might look after pro petty of all description, but if one thing was more ce, tain than another, it was this, that the insertion of those words in the oath or declaration which was now the law of the land, had been made by the very persons who were claiming advantages under the law. These words were suggested and desired to be in serted by the Roman Catholics themselves. Now he feel steed that. the institutioa of the Church of England in Ireland, and its union with the Ctiurch in this country, was a matter of compact which could not be departed from. But he would go further, and say that there was no one pro position in the Constitution of the country, for the maintenance of which more solemn engagements had been entered into, than for the preservation of the Church of England. The Roman Catholics themselves declared in the year 1828. on the repeal of the Test Act. and again in 1829, on the passing of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill—indeed, on every occasion on which a concession of pri vileges were made with regard to that point, the declaration universally was—that the persons claiming the privileges of Roman Catholic subjects under these Acts of Parliament, universally made declaration of reservation to the property of the Church of England in that country. So in Parliament the principle had been uniformly acted upon to preserve the Church of England in Ireland. But he would go a little further. He believed that the Noble Lord was further mistaken in some ot the causes of discontent in Ireland. He (the Duke of Wellington) saw, some years ago, a petition from some Peers in Ireland, complaining of the discontent prevaitieg in that country. Among the subjects of discontent, there was certainly the existence of the Church Establishment mentioned; but there were other causes of discontent also. They mentioned that the relative proportion of Members of Parliament fie m Ireland and from England, referring to the population of Ireland and England, was not what it ought to be. Did the Noble Lord mean to concede that ? They mentioned also that in the Cor poration Act, the qualification had been raised higher than it had been in the English Corporation Reform Act, when the property in Ireland was taken into consideration; they men tioned also that the number of Irish Judges—of Roman Ca tholic Judges—were not sufficiently numerous on the Irish Bench. He (the Duke of Wellington) had always understood that the Judges were selected according to the best judgment of the countey, from those most capable of eerlorming the duties of those judicial offices. He had been told it had been so in Eng land, and he did not see why it should not be in Ireland also. He had never been told that the Irish Judges were deficient in those qualities which fitted them for their office. But these were not things to be incorporated in an Act of Parliament, yet they ' were the grievances which were stated to exist by the Noble Lords who had signed the petition, which he (the Duke of Wellington) had seen in print, from Charleanont House. He thought he could show, from what had passed hereto fore, that the most ample concessions would not put an end to the cause of all the =select. He meant agitation—a perpetual agitatien for the repeal of the union ; and whether it were the restriction of titees, or church-rates ; or any other measure of the moment—no matter what the concession might be— he thought he could show simply, from what had passed heretofore, that it had been followed by additional agitation and additional discontent.—(Hear. hear.) A great measure of concession was mane in the year 1829, and what happened after it ? The law passed in the month of April, 1821, and in the month of June in the same year an agineor commenced I his work in the county of Clare, calling on the people, now that they had got religious liberty, to demand civil liberty and a repeal of the union. From Clare he went to Dublin, and in the month of December, 1829, he commenced there a system of agitation, which he continued throughout the year 1830, up to January in the following year, at different times, under dif ferent circumstances, and in different parts of the country, until a Noble Friend, whom he did not see in his place, issued a publiceticn, by which he put an end to this description of agitation. Now, their Lordships would observe thatthis fresh system of agitation upon the sub ject of tithes, a repeal of the church rates, and a repeal of the union, commenced on the very morrow of the passing of the Catholic Relief Bill. Well, then, soon after this pubeieation had been Issued, an agitation was recommenced for the sus pension of tithes and church rates, and then the Government were under the necessity of passing the Coercion Bill, which they were induced to do by a dispatch of Lord Wellesley, who stated that he had invariably found a connexion between the agitation for the repeal and extinction of tithes, and popular discontent, and agrarian outrage. Now, your Lordships will observe, from these facts, (arid he hoped the Noble Earl would see it too), that the moment concessions of any sort were made, agitation was recommenced for some other object; perhaps for obtaining the property of parties who gave occasion far discontent, or for exciting the population to commit agrarian outrage. After the Coercion Bill of 1833, there was another passed in 1834, which lasted for a twelvemonth, and it was succeeded by a third, which was passed in 1835, for a period of five %ears, but which terminated in the year 1840. There was, he believed, some little cessation of agitation in the year s 1835 and 1836. owing, as it was supposed, to some political arrangement which was made in London ; but that apparent tranquillity did not last long. The agitation was continued unde r different forms, in 1837, 1838, 1839. and 1840 ; and in the latter year the monster meetings commenced, and 01. y were continued to the end of the year 1840. through 1841 and 1842. and part of 1843. In the month of November of that year they were put down by a proclamation issued by the Lord Lieutenant. During this time there was no want of measures of conies sion, for the tithe arrangement was brought to a complete conclusion—the Relief Bill was passed, and the Cor poration Bill was passed ; and, in fact, ev ry measure was adopted which could tend to the prosperity of Ireland ; and Parliament acted upon all these occasions, as if it were an Irish Parliament, acting solely for the benefit of the Irish people. But still the agitation continued, anti monster meet ings were assembled, which could only be got rid of by mili tary law. Now, he entreated them to observe minutely this history of concession. He did net mean to say that it was right to concede on all these points, but he did say, that they ought not to concede on this occasion, when they were bound by compact to avoid doing sit—bound by compact to preserve and maintain the united Church of England and Ireland— (Hear.) He dirt not put this question of the preservation of the Church of England upon such high grounds as those which he could have wished to have put it, but he might remind their Lordships that under this establishment they enjoyed the advantage of seeing the people entertain as strong a sense of religion, and as great a respect for religion, as existed in any country in the world. They had, besides, the advan tage of enjoying universal toleration; every system of reli gion was tolerated in this country; and, above all, they had the advantage of enjoying religious peace.—(Cheers.) These were three of the great Christian adv intages which they de rived front the existence of the Established Church, and he entreated their Lordships not to run the tisk of losing any of them by adopting any reeasure of that description —( Hear, hear. ) It was tru ethat, although they had religious peace, there were 1,011 goat political eiffiereeces of opinion upon the subject of the eifferent religious sects which existed in the c..untry, but this was the consequi-nce of their constitutional existence. For the people of this country—every individual of this country, had the privilege of c• nsidering and discussing the question of political power.—( Hear, hear. ) Consequently their minister or others might lead them, and each sect was thsrelore anxious to increase its political power, and the result was that great rivalry existed amor.gs; the sects. (Hear, hear.) But would concessions of any kind put an end to this rivalry for political power? No, it would riot ; concede what they might the rivalry 'would still remsin ; while, if they conceded what the Catholic Church demander!, he was afraid they would no longer have religious peace, or facilities for settling such matters as the marriage question in that House, as they had done some time ago. The same question could not be settled elsewhere. It could not be settled in Uerniany, France, or Spain, and he was sure that it they sae ctioned a Catholic establishment there would be an end to that religious peace and toleration without which this country could not exist for a single hour.—( Hear. ) Under these circumstances, considering that they were bound by compact to tnaietairs the Uoited Church of England aid Ireland, and considering the great advantages they derived from the existence of the Church of England, advantages which were enjoyed alike by Catholics as well as Protestants, be called upon their Lordships (by rejecting the motion) not to give rise to the supposition that they were inclined to enter tain any such measures as those proposed by the Noble Earl. Earl FORTESCUE coricui red cordially in the views of his Noble Friend, and he should certainly support the motion before their Lordships. He gave a reluctant consent to the third reading of the Protection to Life Bill, but not from any confidence in the lsw or its administrators, but because, after the statement of the Noble Earl opposite, of the amount of crime committed in Ireland he thought some strong measure was necessary for its suppression. He considered that, under the existing circumstances of Ireland, it was their duty, not merely to grant pecuniary assistance fur the relief of the present distress, and pass severe laws for the detection and punishment of crimes, but measures ought, without tuture de lay, to be adopted, for the purpose of effeetiug a real and per manent improvement in the condition of that part of her Majesty's dominions. These were the only terms in the Ed • dress which pledged the House in any way, and he thought it was too bad to reject it, because the Noble Earl who proposed it, had expressed his opinion that a great reform was necessary in the establishment of the church of Ireland. In that sentiment he most cordially concurred, and he agreed also with the Noble Earl that they would never have perfect contentment amongst the people of Ireland until the Catholic Church was placed upon the same footing as the Protestant.—(Cheers.) He had always considered a general distribution of land among all classes in the country as one of, its safeguards, arid one of its bulwarks, and without pretending for a moment to defend the Anti-Corn-law League, he must say that great obligation was due to them for directing parties how to invest the products of their industry in small freeholds. Of this general distribution of land great want was felt in Ireland. He had beers told, when he wished to introduce a measure to extend the fran chise to 40s. freeholders, that there was no such class. He would ask, why was there not? There were numbers of per sons in that country who expended as much in purchasing tenant-right as would enable them to obtain *mall freeholds. He did not, therefore, think that it arose from the want of money to enable them to become freeholders. He thought that the Government ought to introduce some measure to faci litate the purchase of these small freeholds, and at the same time to keep some of that money in the pockets of those which, under the existing law, now weest to the attorneys. Lord BROUGHAM—There is a Bill of that nature before the House Earl FORTESCUE would wish to see the measure ex tended to Ireland. He wished to see Ireland placed upon the same footing as England. The Noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington) had said, in the course of his speech delivered that night, that all the concessions; made to Ireland only produced fresh agitation. He (Earl Forte cue) would beg to remind their Lordships that all concessions made to Ireland had been the fruit of previous agitation, and it was not to be wondered if, after the lesson which had been set them, they would fail of pursuing the same line of conduct while any chance of success remained to them. He contended that :f they had more con• fidence in the administralion of the c untry—if they were put upon an equal footin g both in Church and Stare, they would then effectually put down agitation among those who, however excitable, were certainly not the less rut itled to the considera tion of their Lordships. Having tried such measures to their fullest extent, and having found them not to answer, then and then only ought the Government to adopt coercive measures. Lord f3ROUG HAM would not have addressed their Lord ships, had it not been that the Noble Earl, who tnoved the address, had in the course of his apeech made refer ence -to one or two matters in which he felt, himself if not jueicially, at least protessionally bound to make one or two obiervarions, alike injustice to himself, to the Government, and to the country at large. First of all, be would say that, with reference to that part of the Noble Earl's speech, whether with reference to the afflicting statements of the amoun• of dis tress, or of the evil of the Administrations which have con ducted the affairs of behind; or whether, with regard to the misery which prevailed among a large portion of the people, or of the crimes and frightful outrages upon life as well as pro perty, whether resulting from misery or other causes, which had, as is were, scared the soul of society, and which had forced their Lordships reluctantly to have recourse to mea sures of a severe, coercive nature, which broached upon the natural rights of our fellow-countrymen—all these statements were but too true. They could he matters of no controversy. No person would dispute them. They were reiterated over and over again in the course of the discussion on the late coercive measures. But these things, the existence of which we all deplore, had (as his Noble Friend who had last spoken had reminded their Lordships) their root far deeper than in any misgovernment of the pr. sent or any othday. Its root lay, deeper then in any political a gitation . of the present day, although he thought they were not in some sort uncon neeten with that agitation, as he should presently show, they had had their roots deeper plunged and wider spread in the social condition of the Irish people. With reference to their engagements in landed property, and their great predilec tion for agricultural pursuits in their own style. he did not think they could interfere. They could not interfere with the rights of property, the most sacred of all rights—those &Acted • co rights.upon which society itself depended—the great e O O stone of the whole social edifice in every country, as they ever necessarily be. They constitute the line of deo ° ier which separates the savage from the civilissd state - of W eis In the one property is safe—in the other unsafe. Th is totes the difference between a governed country and 3 ce the i where anarchy prevailed. Here property is safe—there, east, are no sacred rights of property. This constitutes the ; le et ce between the two states of society. It was a aide /at e ence it was a contra , t—it was a diametrical contras t be `e the civilised and sasetge state of society. Therefore it Ole property, having all those tights, mO4 be deemed sacred' that reason it was that they must in all they did, in ge ... l°. OS, said, and in all they meditated to do—make al spring "7, e . as from a first principle ; and no man who desired the Peite a reastutable being, or even a person claiming for hitetr r i f i t e least grain of common sense, or the smallest amount 0 , sa e tien, can entertain a doubt upon the subjest. Nor coteraiy person suffer a thought to cross his mind—to pass 0e ° , 4 01 mere surface of his imagination—could entertain for a 0 1 0 "01 an hesitating thought—a shade or the shadow of a shiw o rri the most sacred and fundamental of all principles--th e rights of property. If, then, there were speculators-I t o to speculators—who suffered to pass across their imaginattbe jy abstract ideas that those sacred rights of property may, t ee terfered with with impunity, and w h o p ro p o unded this ference with property as one of their remedies for existil i del who carried out the ab s u r d p r i nci pl e f or th e purpose of aot e t their dupes in the country, who were for the most part ig o es persons when compared w ith th emse l ves —b u t more tb ° o lo less, more reckless than they who suffered it to be said' go out to the world upon th e i r authority.-and prePV Bills in Parliament of which he had heard that nigh t . 1/ 1) first time. He could not have believed it possible in l o s century, in a British House of Commons, that there el ire t", been propounded, what had been called by the gentle P_ eaa rsl euphonious and eugolistic " fixity."—(Laughter and rt" e rrs Meaning thereby, by an Act of Parleenent, that an/ lee being the occupant or tenant of a piece of land, or othi'deeri perty, was to have a personal property net of his 11° ,0 estate, in the shape ot the house ter tenement, or lands, 50 he must have occupied for a limited number of ees i e t r eOt t which he was to become entitled to by payment of ss ce That was an interterence with, a desecration of the rights of property, which their Lordships must strentlea ifs° test, honestly, fairly, openly, downrightly. It was l dit e l monstrosity to give the tenant property upon such ee o s or t To pace the tenant in the landlord's place, in conseli a , his having formerly paid the rent. He could only ° do ss! how it was that such a proposal was not instantly put t t 'tise the! rung arm of talent in the other H ous e, except ma to if thought, either that the matter was of so li ' sa portaece, or else so extravag a nt in iiseif At to deserve the attention of the House. Af er events it was brought forward in the middle of 0/ 4 when long discussions are deprecated, and Governute ° a tal i anxious for a prorogation, mentioned at the same tins 0 1 they intended to send over a C omm i ss i on. H e knees over, that a Commission was int en d e d l ong b e fore 6 . 8 t and the Commission, wnen formed, was not formed toc°ol as to the best made of improving the sacred and 4 ' 41 60 rights of propel ty. It was not app Anted to inquire inle°oo, ot tenure, nor the robbery of landlords for the sake of,i r e It was lamentable that there should be such a state of wc o le the United Kingdom as had grown up in the sister eV Matters ought to be far otherwise in the matiagentet e set perty. The Noble Lord who had just spoken bad o. — Sisr a illustration. He (Lord Brougham) w uld give nej e /fi a t Friend another illustration, with which he was • s. show him the difference between t h e wit countre e e 0 00., would he think of an estate, the rent of which was t est p s r a 20,0..01. a-year, upon which the r e w ere no t 80 or 1 0 " , a sis, but 1,3..0 or 1,400 tenants in ehiet pa y i ng r en t , aniperh s i t ot e many more again—pi obably 3,00 u pa dthe rent dui: ier- 0 01 none of who.o paid so much as 401. a-year. Nal:ober. psi paid 71. and 10/., and some 10s., 125., and lbs. ret er i t s e s a great mistake to say, that if the land was unaeriet./ t i t e irsiand was the same as that of E ng l an d; a n d tosa7 l " sub-tenant had paid his rent to the middle-man, and tht w o man should fail, that the landlord could not destraia • 'ni t sub-tenant . It was a gross mistake—h e collet do sot was only an act of kindness or good feeling that he did betWe And again in anothe, case. to which th e Noble Earl se.,,A the address tverted, which he ( Lord Brougham) h o rsaire happened, that upon a lease being out, an t i the OW° er g to have his farm better cultivated, and in order to bri be ° / 01 4. that result, found it necessary o reduce the leo tp i elte„ r e tenants, in order that he might apply th a t s kill and el i de" rn a somber of small tenants were not able to cornaul as d es e not able therefore to improve the condition of the, w e s e t e considered it a great hardship that the landlord cotlie sig cise the powers granted him by law of disluiP l a small men, and consolidating the farms as had ,b ee ot ii;se Scotland some years awe To consolidate these taf ea toly Ise necessary that a number ot these small men shoulebso It was a consisterable hardship that a man should Oe t pte l ot il ' I .ower to act, as he thought for th e goo d manage-0/ , estate. He would be l oa th to b e l ieve t h at t h e esal o f s p fie ) by his Noble Friend had been much followed. h' r of from his statement that a vast number of persons I f t e s e e tg e fr, the moment the lease kilns. It was undoub es ll 92 . Z e gi r t ri landlord to do that it he thought it was for the,rii t ejo estate, and it was nothing more than an act of a'!; t0 0°.; 1 1 1 neither more nor less, on the part of the landlord to o # tenantry if it was nut done Inure frequently, and t eat self made by the strung arm ef the law to understand te a , et his right; and if be should choose to stand urn bit ib eitei had no right to oppose, or resist, or thwart hirer & o ol*, law of the land ; and prope rt y w o ule be 1 11 so b no longer worth having or cultivating if b ola were repealed. The landlord had an indiss e et ftl to de as he wished with his own estate- es o9, sidered that by passing the late coercion il l r ighl i )i putting down outrages, that they had begun at t oe at e i f i t O He rejoiced to see it. They had armed Goverit ui t a IVA compulsory power, and the first lesson to be tatsh t people was, that hey must obey the law; that 'W oo / 10 mit themselves to the law, and that their set tst s to 4 9, c unse loss, be they hymen or priests, shall in lairt e oler tit ge open them to resist the law, or persist in th e • qty; of outrages; and they should know, and must kOolty,t they do so rests.. and perstst, they must suffer the Vj condign punishment of . crinurtais. So carefully di" nr • or,lo ! Earl abstain from telling them what he wished t ° , rele it Y reined) the grievances of Leland, that it was On4pb, ty 0, alluded to the irtsh church, at the e n d o t hi s spee d (Lord Brougham) cup d know what tangibl e re niew i re• e it e l view. The wide of collecting the tithe was, it Oleo , / master grievance. But since 1532, when his Noble. t esi posite, with himseif, mad • the chiller its thr ii t t l ie was na such tong to be found in It-slams ° s elSt i , sr To use the wds of Lord Plunkett, he was as rsr-ttees as an ostrich In the year 1523 he presented a P o e 1 ,1-sa set other House of Parliament, complaining of th e s o o '4 tuition of ju.tice, and he had ucca.ton then to u' ot tr o l, tiotis on that suojeet which lie regretted were 00,4 Souse of the jtidges who then ex-coted the le' be e' la t "Union judges." " Post hoc as propter hoc es as it so happ,n,rl that they nwed heir origin to..:0,0004 were actuated by a strong politicai bias ever ait e r e t be i looed e over the statement a few days ago whic h l' oot ir 7 and he could say that no such grievance no w r ben chsl o r might be said that political men now sat on thebeivas_.s question, however. was out what a judge via, eeft poinment, but what he had been since. Had th' s y' stanch with faction ? \Vete they political by was said that such appointments were not like' r/ Peoforo ot Ire.and. He could say that one-half Of an d al ia ! o l might disapprove of the appo ntment, but a half e/ proved of them.—(Great laughter. No dal._ be Judges were appointed, who were said t u t et e ,i, judges ;but were they the only political jtelg e* oo liti li 6 Government had made appointments equally 1 01 " they had a lackson, and a Lefroy, and a Smith , m ete A l e an O'Loughlin, a Perrin, a Ball, a 13radyta be er4 Cometon—every one of them politicians. It r es. ; i rl,r 4 necessity of the .case. All the political bar o eti tinged with politic-, and such would be the T o gi. WYO. party arose and introduced a different state or e ° of ' 0 0,4 as there were two great parties at the bar, ° d eg 09 barristers would be politicians. He thought it h" e st li e ei e te• ' so / these observations. One word as to the c a t es t? Ireland, which was divided into seven millions of to jo one minion of Piotestants. He contended that religicleirtr had no right to.complain of the alienation of ter i i o rr perty in Ireland, as the property was g rautee ae prO o rt j e uses, and Pa liament had a perfect right to s k b o ter,% tro thos.a purposes, and to the elate religion. The "' se e e r sit lifsel# of Ireland was, that these seven millions reee l ment for their own religion. That was a gre a ,,bili l, 0 admitted—so difficult as to amount to an itnP ° , te th s ti t e - people, he considered, should nut be subjectso iret of paying for their own religious instructions e ae said that the clergy would not take an ende r ' o igli t kr o ir on it they would take it —( Laughter.) Th e i o _ h er es / it the first quarter, but they would the n e ,„ r 0,0 that Catholics were challenged on juries gion. They were ehallenged for other I! yr o 6, would have equally aiplied bad they b ee . ° of If a question should arise as to the elig ene t eli e l would be one not at all connected with religiotabei ety full review of the whole statement of the it`.,o sPf si e (Lord Brougham) del not believe that this " li e byte} which could be de •It with by legislative enactoieto ere thy : determination of the Government not to Pall e 'let ° V o l / with agitators. be they priests or laymen. s I,o' I_l'l°4o with his Noble Frient that the processes of ; be v el should be made more facile and less expe n lA ss to cyV should not be forgotten that the law in EDO ° o bis le itff is e more expensise. He felt great pain ill beitige, resist.,/'' many observations that he had ma de ; but o f ee iip g House should not lend itself to the malpraetti be ce ties ; and if they did, he did think they 19'0 0 ' 1 be b e selves to those agitators in Ireland to who s hai, c ee e o lle attributable much of the agrarian eutrafl e ,. o o ° 0 0 4 cemmttted. lie had read speeches made a` ba e g inges al e by priests anti ethers, who spoke of proper t y isotliv'to as well as its rights, and he believed that the ) OA, e land had ob:erveo that maxim.— ( Hear, het r b lave AP 0 0. 0 not agree with his Noble Friend that the r t' e sti e t e ° not exercise that right as th e y th ou ght preP er iesatO or ee, Earl FITZ WILLIAM did think that the ee et ft e elw e e, indebted to his Noble Friend for having br77,f motion, inasmuch as it would have the eff i e c co op° 1 0 : l o state of Irelane before this House and th is lisht °s ea to o f Ireland was a country not understood by E ° fi ng lish i° oll e s because she was a sort of mirror in which tt co aite o el j e s like to toil, for it did not reflect an ything d esd a t 12; Government of England. His Noble F rie e ese re bil er se the difficulty of dealing with the monster' fa rt _ no ite h osi f td• i , the Irish Church ; and the Noble Duke °r - P Is° p la tter -, f er , r would be impossible to do so ; but that the,. epeeeg be a sort of disinheritance of tots House t ). es Pe t t c li ist r e lating for Ireland, or of removing the grind r etee o en o Se enactment. He had heard a great deal ploy? spent of the Catholic clergy ; but if he tee% „, 1 41/: d re s s' he would never consent to such a regulat ( , ) , -- par! oil ter did nut deal with this question justly anc: ol ; 9 °l e y ei se rD upon it they would have to deal with quest robe fir.o difficulty in reference to the rights r e b , 11 ,. o r, country. This was a matter in w hich n l e oi d 03, interested as a p r oprietor of land ;la Ir e t ete s es ie was a time when certain villains ef e , • • to the Lord Chancellor // li t er ts',l propositions rates hY sbs t 0 0 . j though these fellows held their es bred ,ie tenure ; yet such a state of things was Pbe . 41 7 became firm legal holders of those w o m t e what was said here went abroad s y mea n° sed e telt?fig i er approve of ; but he -poke to their Lordships' b , a stit te e s not to inquire too nicely into the the tenure, b e sis io isS o was held in Ireland, for the result would re f be 0 1 °4. v ie as they might expect. The Noble Earl_ ee der ee s4e state of Scotland, and the circurnstan ce o sbe sr .oo ll if Presbsterian religion had been establishe d et i b e vet tr t°oo asked why the people of Ireland should nutsboted burp" to have tbe Roman Catholic religion este.,ol is,;,retio of gion as the people of Scotland had to estsh l 0 1 SC ° , stel e s; The episcopacy of some of the aristocraeYr w as t t ba si , " ii i al reason for its being established thereeensfie,mittose s tr b because the aristocracy of Ireland were it _of cb se tinny should be exclusively established tia r',„ f g e rie to - . 4 1 10 1 the property belonged to the Chure: f t si ese r ` o ti o sli wished to know what was the co ntiguity _ 0° /Ci t e of England ?" Was it an ancient teruei nut eh ° v en d e e ? a to the ‘' eher is iss.a• deed, that the property belongeo ; le vel— it - se- 0 he denied thatit belonged by origina lic r l 3bu c reb. h i 3 O ! of England or to the Roman Cat ho the -hur e Irs tds ,t longed by Act of Parliament to worst fea tor- t eeir. ti ol and here he came to the - fiss 100 t i erce nexion between the two countries. , I r e , os os er es beers so universally right towards F o r Is h l io ti ot reS should be right. in that instance is o f the p :e t would not consent that any port!,3 should be diverted from its legituo r ~--.. __ , •••