The Sun. — London, England, 1812-02-01 00:00:00

t e- seer to him to be the.main point. h was COLl feuded that the Irish Government had obstructed the Catholics in the exercise of their constitutional right of petitioning. If such were the case, then, that Government would deserve at least, the cen sure of that House. But in tea the case was widely different. The Catholics, undoubtedly, had the same right to petition their Sovereign or the Legislature which all their fellow •subjeas en joyed but what he insisted on, was, that the Irish Government had . never attempted to interfere in any proceeding of the Catholics which had the ob ject of petitioning fairly in view. The, lea was, that they had thought fit to proceed to the formation of a Representative Convention. Against a procedure of -this kind (said his Lordship) the Irish Convention had been more particularly framed. , 'I he Membess of the House of Commons, and no other, were_ the legitimate and . constitutional representatives of the people. .What an-incongruity, at best, would it pre sent, to see one assembly affe&ing to speak the sen timents of the country, While another expressed them in a manner diredly opposite! But the dan ger of suffering such an assembly to exist was the more imporlartt consideration. Kid such an as sembly been suffered to continue till now, what de strudive consequences might not have ensued ! An assembly sieconscituied, if tolerated, might think proper to discuss the questions of peace or war—s the resoueees of the country, the taxes necessary for the continuance of hostilities, and the r ability of the . people to bear theM, the commerce, the exchangk and the currency of the Empire.—All these topics such a convention may proceed to discuss-; in.short every thing discussed In Parliament might most utse doubredly be debated in such an assembly. As to the objection of its temporary duration, he would say, if it were lawful to discuss therq one day, it would be law lel to do so another, and so on to any_ number. Such an assembly, if tolerated, might sit whether Parliament were sittingat the title or not. No are gurnents, however plausible, should, he contendes,' be allowed to suffer a precedent' of so daegerOus and destructive a .nature as the establishthent of such a Ceneerition. No Government could long mains tain- itself if such a system prevailed—no Govern ment in its- senses would suffer the existesce, still lest the continuaiace of sot h an anomaly t--That of 'lreland, t tieref ere, had acted most prudently in nco suffer tog such an assembly to continue organized in the capital. It was necessary to put the exOtiog laws in execution for the preservation of the State. They were jusithed not only in the principle, bu! in The mode of their conduct, as was amply illustrated by'the proceedings of the Catholics. The procla- Mation of the Duke of Richmond on one ctly, was followed by that of Lord Fingal on the next. They bad set then-Ist:lves is open hostility to the Govern ment of Ireland, which was unjustly blamed for exciting discontents, While in fad they had only enforced the laws of the country. Tire Noble Duke at the head of the Irish Government would, instead of meeting with censure, meet the applause of every impartial man who had the opportuni.y of observing the acts of his administration. His 'conduct, instead of being harsh or precipitate, was rather remarkable' for its conciliation-and forbear. ance, to the utmost bounds of prudence and safety. He begged the House to recollect what was the conduct of America when she was determined to separate from this country ? Was it not the ores. niz alien of . a representative convention ? What was the case with reipeet to France the' other day ? Was not an assembly of the States-General fir-t called, and a National Convention immediately af ter'eards organized ? 'The dangers of suffering such an A-symbly to have existence were incalculable, and he telt that the Government of Ireland had oily exercised its p .Wel; at a crisis when the safety cf the State was seriously menaced ! Had it acted otherwise; its supineness and pusillanimity would. have been censurable indeed—it had enforced the tews on which the safety of the State depended.— Had it declined to do so, the case in bpth countries would have been different, but infinitely Worse. Increased murmurs, and multiplied alarmists would have been one of the tightest consequences; but as it was; he deemed them, instead of censure-and reproach, deserving of the applause and gratitude of the country. • The Duke of &profit) strenuously supported the motion. He considered what had been advanced by the Noble Earl as not tending in the smallest degree to do away the arguments and the fa& ad verted to by his Noble Friend. With respett to the recent conduct of the Government of Ireloud, he widely differed from him. An eulogium had been pronounced on the Noble Duke at the head of that Government. He trusted, however, it would be al lowed him, notwithstanding his near conneCtion with that Noble Personage, to express himself as to this particular point, of a different opinion. The effects of the unfortunate measures of that Aduri nistt ation were too obvious, he thought, to allow the merits of the question to be undecided. The actual state of Ireland he too test, with his Noble Friend, to be such as forcibly 10 Call lot the speedy iuiereo s.ition of the Government and Legislature of the Empire. What was that situation ? w as a Ca tholic population under a Protestant Government. Four-fifths of that population had to maintain their own hierarchy and their priesthood, while the other fifth were in possession of all the revenues and the resources of the Government, to maintain and up hold their own establishments ! Under these cir cumstances, the Catholics had frequently approached Piirliament in a supplicating attitude, for redress ; with what effect was too well known. The discon tents of that country were to be attributed to the in toleraet spirit of those ‘vho now were vested with the powers of Government. The objed of their recent condua was, he thought, to induce the m re effeet, and to give a charaa'r of dignity and solem nity to their proceedings. This object was Inettrat ed by the condua of the Iri.sh Government. Under such circumstances, it would not perhaps be won derful if the Catholics of that country had acted dif ferently; but on the contrary, they had manifested s most laudable moderation arid loyalty of temper.— It should be recollected that the population of Ire land had long since been admitted to the elective franchise, while the Catholic Nobles, Gentry, and men of property are held unworthy of being the representatives of their brethren ! While he had the honour to hold a share in the Government of Ireland, Le'did every thing ie his power under these CI:COMSI3IIC , 2;, to conciliate and soften their condition ; Le toejured the House to consider the situation in which so nuaneroes a portion- of their fellow-subjeele were still held, and to ;ern !heir se rious attention to the critical situation in which so valuable a branch of the empire was placed, in coo. , sequence of such deprivations and the misconduct of its Government. For this, the motidn - of his Noble Friend afforded them a convenient opportunity. It were a waste of their Lordships' time to expatiate upon those topics. Instead of the harsh and hosti:e syStem which was latterly adopted, they- should hold out he olive branch and the hand of friendship.— Such was the only way to unite all hands and pearls; and such conduct u ould tend, more effectually than any other, to promote, not only the tranquility and happiness of- Ireland, but the best interest and se curity of the Empire at large. The Err) of Atrearnette took a survey of the ge netak state of Ireland, in order to exemine what it was which could so urgently call for au inquiry into the condiiiou ot that country at the present moment. What most forcibly snuck him, iii considering the state of Irei.ind, was the tone and at titode v h:ch the body of the Roman Catholics had assumed in the pre paration and limiter:lnce, as they called it,'of their petition to ParliaMent. Was the present the proper moment for pressing forward their .claims ? Was their petition ready to be laid now betoteithe House? Was it in the manner in e hich that petition was prepared, , or the circumstances that attended and - marked - their meetings ; Parliament was to discover ;qui nail that moderation, that torbearence e that re sped for the laws, that vette:aeon for the I tws which had so much and so frequently been the theme of panegyric and applause with their advocates ? What was the real object of the motion which the' Noble Earl had this night -submitted to their Lordships' consideration.? %Vete not the N •ble 'Mover and those who supported him; anxious Tallier to extend the inquiry into the whole conduct bf his Majesty's Government—to can, ass and criticise their proceeel ings under all ilie - aspee.'s of that conduct ? Tles he believed was the true motive and . object of the pre beat motion. Bei he had attentoely watched the proceeding. of the Government in Ireland ; indeed, the general measures of his Majest y's Government both there and at home; and his humble opinion was, ihat coudud not only was • not deserving of blame, out wes highly entitled to cconendetion.— it would be impertinent in him to detain their Lord ships with a detail of all-that had terently' passed in Ireland. All that he would now take upon himseif to say was, that in all their late proceedings, the Coaduti of the Irish Catholics, not withstanding their own, and the claims of their advocates- to tie praise of moderation and forbearance, had every thing in it that bespoke the very reverse, and appealed to him, upon the whole, to be very reprehensible. They seemed wholly to forget the many succeasiveondea• yours which tad been made to improve aed melio rate their conditions; endeavours which the libera lity of their own Parliament, and of their Protestant fellow auejeets, had carried as far as resped'for the Constitution, and a due regard to its security, would admit. Much had been said abeut the tights of mankind—about rights of the Irish Catholics to erivileees'arld immunities which they claimed.— Will the ' Noble Lords who start this question of right, contend that the Irish Catholics can claim these privileges and exemptions as a matter of right ? Will they assert that the question of riset properly belongs to the situation of the Irish Catholics ? if they do, then must they aleo • beeprepared to assert that it doeS not belong to their Lordships' liouse; that neither this nor the. other House of Parliament, . nor both together, have the right to impose restric tions on any class of men, even were those restric tions deemed necessaty for secuting persons and property, and for the general goo.l and welfare of the community at large. He should not enter into minute discussion of the tendency and nature of re ligious optnions merely in their speculative farm.-- • He wished to consider them only as they might shew themselves practically, and how far that practice was or was not inimical to Government. Under this point of view, he' would consider the Claims of the Catholics; and ask what had been refused to them; or, rather, what had not been granted 40 them within- the space of a very few yeare?— And, after all these concessions of evlett did they now complain, and what did they further re quire ? Their complaint, it seems, was now redOced to this, that they were still precluded from holding =fain offices in the State. On this point they were at issue with Parliament, and would their advocates contend that as a matter of right they could claim an admissibility to those high offices, 'rids was the real state of the question. .If that doarioewes yet ' up, • he for one would not . hesitate to declare that such a doctrine was not tenable. He was as solici tous as any Noble Lord' c o uld b e fur the tetter im provement ot the coudition of Ireland. But would the granting of the present claims of the Catholics contribute in the least to that improvement ? He thought not—neither could he see the danger of withholding such a grant. At a distance,ssome ap pearances would indicate dangers. Those dangers, however, diminish as you approached them, and va nish altogether upon a nearer view.. The Noble Lord then pteceeded to vindicate the late condua of the Irish Government, and to shew that the spirit which animated that conduct was in no respeEt hos tile to the right of petitioning, or to . any other right to which the Cat holies had a fair claim? Where then were grounds of the invealives which the Noble Duke (Bedford) had - heaped 'upon the-conduct of that Go vernment towatds the Roman Calle - Axe?' What pre judice or severity had been manifeSted with respect to them ? Were not the persons of the Roman Ca tholics held as sacred, and was not their property kept as secure as those of their Protestant fellow -sub jects ? Let the Noble Duke adduce one instance of flagrant partiality to A ards Protestants, and of•preju dice and severity against the Catholics, and he would , then acknowledge there were some grounds for in quiry. Let it even be shewn that the operation of the Convention Act would be less injurious to the Protestants than to the Catholics, if the former - should act in violation of that laW. If the Protestants, under the pretence of pethion ing the King or Parliament, or any other pre= tence whatsoever, should delegate and assertible 500 persons of the first respeelability and weight among them ; if that assembly were to meet and deliberate, and thus form a representative body, independent of the Legislature, would the Government pe justified in allowing such proceeding to go on without inier ruption ? Was not such, however, therecent con duet of the Irish Catholics; and was their condual, contrary as it was to law, and pregnant as it might have proved, with the most dangerous consequences to the State, to be allowed to pass unnoticed and un yenecked ? That indeed would be an instance of 6lind-and'extraordinary partiality and favour towards the Roman Catholics: - *Tbe Noble - Lord next enur ed into - a vindication of the late judicial proceedings ; in Ire! ind, and contended that it was the indispen sable duty of the Courts to proceed as they had done,. It was not surely to be allowed, that pit tuies of se dition were every day to be exhibited with impunity, ithout any interference on the part .ot„any of the Constituted Authorities of site Country ; that would unquestionerly nut be the surest means of improv ing the condition of Ireland. No! the pfmperity and happiness of the United i(ing tom would only be promoted by mutual sacrifice., by reciprocal for bearance, and by the hai loony of the exertions and energies of both, as cordially . co-operating against the machinat'otor and the violence of the common enemy. Such being the impression of his mind he must vote against the motion for a Corniniitee of Inquiry. The- Duke of BEDFORD briefly explained the nature of his charges against the risk Govei nowt) t. The Marquis of Dow NSH I RE insisted that nothing had been done towards improving, the state of Ire land; but that every measure of -late, particularly the measure of the Union, had greatly tended to 'de teriorate her condition, to hurnule her pride, to sap the foundations of her prosperity. In being de prived of her Parliament, it was not One privation alone that Ireland had suffered. That privation lud involved many other severe and degrading priVations. It deprived her of her metropolis; it deprived her of her name as a kingdom ; it deprived her of h• r nobility ; privations which of themselves are suffi- dent to sink the. spirits and unnerve the energies of a people. It moreover tended to drain her of her money by remittances to absentees, and thus de. prived her not only of the example and influence which a Nobiiiiy and Gentry are wont to exert over a country, but also of the advatita4e of resources which were (haw') from her soil. Indeed, in every point of view in which the ineasnre of the Union could be contempl ited, it would appear with disad vantages and degradation to Irel ind, instead of be nefits.. It promised great advan ages to the Catho lics, to induce them .tu concur in promoting the measure, and repaid that concurrence with'disap pointment and ingratitude. Instead of mutual con ciliation, it ,only begot disaffection and ill-will; and . in' every respett it could only be -looked upon.a,s_a nominal union. Such, it appearing to hint to be the condition . of , Ireland, lie could not but support any motion that had for its object to better that condition. The Earl of HARDWICKI d, fended the conduct of the different Governments of Ireland for a num ber of years , past. Most of them had been marked by concessions and indulgence to the Catholics. Out of thee concessions fresh claims and demands seemed to gibw—though they were granted, they were expected to afford eniiie satisfaction, and to put a stop to any further solicitations. In the year 1793, the Elective Franchise, and the right of ac quiring property were conceded to the C stholics— and it was then Understood on all - bands that the spirit of concessSon had gone to its fullest length. No one could rejoice more than he did at the repeal of the penal laws ;. but there must be 'some point at which a stand was necessary to be made. He cc:mid see no possible advantage in instituting an ioquicy at the present moment into the state of- Ireland. The granting of a Committee fur that purpose would be only to throw censure on the Governitent of Ire- land, which their conduct was far from deserving. la other respects, he did not consider the proem time and circumstatices as season 'tile and propitious for the agitation of these• questions. lie must tie:re fore oppo3e the motion of the Noble Earl. Lord SOMERS and Lord Viscount St - DMOUTH rose at the same time, when, after a pause, the Lord Chancellor called on Lord Sidmouth. Lord SIDMOUTU said, that he feared that on the present occasion he should not be able to do justice to his own feelings. He derived, however, much • satisfaction from what had fallen from two Noble Lords who had preceded him. With the one (Earl Aberdeen) he concurred in considering the present question as one of t he deepest importance; with the other (Earl Flardwicke), he agreed in thinking, that after the concessions made to the Irish Catholics - in 1793, that concession had then gone its utmost length, and that there a stand ought to have been made. But he must differ from t hese Noble Lords in the view they took of the consequences that might arise to this country from any opposition to further concessions. The Noble Earl who brought forward the motion seemed to think that mote had been granted to the lower 01 - 40FS of the Catholics than to the higher That the higher classes, the Nobility of that per suasion, were still. deprived of the rank and pri vileges which they were entitled to enjoy, while many advantages were derived by the lower order of - Catholics, from the concessions already made to them. Yet to both, it had beeneargued,belonged. the right of such concessions. They were not to be matter of dissussion and deliberation, they ()tight to be acknowiedged - asmatter ofriglite - This.quest of right, it was. not necessary for hi'm to examine and discuss. His Noble Friend (Lord Aberdeen) had, in hi: opiniou, ceuipletely settled and disposed of that querniore Indeed, it wieetfor e as his Noble ht iend had observed, teat such a doctrine w3as . wholly untenable. V Teat doctrine, had, howevere been- set IT in that How by - very high authorities. , They argued that4the.conces,ions called fOr by tfie Catho lics, should be granted to sheen as matter of right ; - while at the same time, it - w ar contended, that the higher orders of the Catholics were deprived of the pritaleges they should enjoy, while all the conces sions were in favour of tne lower circlets of that .per suasion. This, in his opinion, was forming a strange notion of a right. He imagiued that where there was a right, there could be no distinction of per sons; that it was the very essence of a free Constitution, that where there was a right, it should be equally enjoyed by all descriptions of persons living under the same 'tree GArernment, by the higher orders as well as the lower, and vice versa. When the improvement end mehdiation of the condition of Ireland was sought Aftet, it was the condition of its peasantry w bids it should be our study to improve. Among them idle ness and ignorance still-prevailed, and as 101rg as they were exposed to the influence of these vices, their cOirdi:ion could not be imploved. kje had never been a iriend to the penal laws by which the people of Ireland had been oppressed. It was a vicious system 1, and he agreed with Mr. Burke, that, that systent had at one time been carried to a vicious per. fection. 'Such a policy he deplored ; detested the extreme to which had been carried, But wh i l e h e deplored such a policy-, he could not but acknow. ledge the fatal necessity which gave it, birth, and referied for his justification on this head to the • spirit and the 'practice which prevailed among the Irish Catholics at the period to which he alluded. Thy laws which we're then enacted, had only for object the security of property. But he was sorry to be obliged to say, that mischievoiss-iii and effects still comitored. They were to be found in the idleness and ignorance of the peasantry, as.he_ lad already observed ; out that evil was not to be . rerrie;• died by granting io the higher orders of the Catholic persuasion the pi ivileo°es and rank to which they were said to be.,eutitled.-• Was it for such an object that • the Howse was caged ugon to go into a Committee of Inquiry ? What other grounds had there been f r - the necessity of such an inquiry at present ? The Noble Viscount then proceeded to consider the conduct of the Irish Government, and of the Nobly: Duke at the head of that Government. There was not the least cotter for any of the charges made against that Government. Above all, no blame could be attached to the Noble Duke, with .whoSe generous ; humane, and gentle nature, he was well lacquainted;. a nattne that would never allow him to oppress an individual, much less a large description . of his fellow-subj-cts. But why was such a motioo .as the present deferred till now ? Why has there been no necessity for it doling the last eleven pars? Much had been said of the wisdom, the Moderatior,' the patriotism of the Catholics on various occasions during that period; yet it never hag he-n thought necessary till now to adduce tee display of these vir-' • tura as a ground for granting a Column - tee of In quiry. But it seems that some Noble Lords Ntquld have all the laws repealed ui.on which perhaps der pend the security of property. Ye., have them all repealed; and yet talk of no sei-urities in• their room. The House did not now even hear of the•Filo. Yet such counter-securities were no doubt abso lutely necessary; should not the King tie made at ,• I least a co-ordinate power with the Pope —O u t would the Catholics agree to this ? Would their Hierarchy submit to this ? be believed nut. Wink such a slate of things remained, he must dread not only the opinions, but the murals of the. Catholics. Ile cooli not. consent, without due provisions !Or the safety • of the present estahlishmeot, to place in the hands ,4f the. Catholics high militaty arid legislatite autho rity. He could not assent to this equalizing of reli gions.- He could not assent to see the symbols and • attributes of authority carried one day to Church') and the next to Mass. The union of Church and State should ever be held sacred by him. Thef ' 1 were inseparab'y unit e d, an d every th i ng would bay. risked by the dissolution of that union, of that most.. sacred alliance:—From its dowdfall, the most dread ful political convulsions and every other species of misery might justly be apprehended. With an impression on his mind, be could vote for no thing that had so fatal a tendency; he must there-. • fore oppose the motion of the Noble • Lord H.AanwtCKE briefly. ex"plaineaif.,. - : Lord SomERS, in a speech' ot co::siderabl e len g !h, :supported the ,ruotion, and urged the expeoienq of consols ing with_ the wishes ul the &mho' CatholicS of Ir. land. r • .. AIaNnii:WELLESLEY then rose and Y poke to 0: 6 following 'effect :—" My 'Lords,' I am fully awsie of the magnitude and importance of the subj of submitted to your Lordships' consideration, by the , motion of the Noble Earl who originated this clil cussion. lam thoroughly convinced dist a Ands' tion of greater' conseqnence to the welfare and prosperity of this empire could not be . made th'! subject of debiteln this House, w ht.:titer it be coo' •siderecl with fespea to the extent of the intercsi , s . , immediately at is sue , or with respe c t to the elt.O. •the dtcisiou may haVe upon the means, the le' sources, and energies of the country, at thi 4 most awful crisis. A subject of such moment must at any time, and under any "ciicurnstance so claim and command the serious attention o f p‘ir 4 liament ; .but from your Lordships, who are Le gislators by virtue of your birth, and are rouse' quently hereditary Counsellors of the Crown, 3 question of this nature is entitled to the . nicri impartial and deliberate consideration.' Wlie fl, I look to it as it presents itself to ' , our 1164 . , lice, I cannot consider it in any 'other light that } as a subject as deeply interesting to the Wei'! fare and prosperity of the country as any which ho s . tver oct;„upied the attention of -y. ur. Lordship*i However I may differ , with the Noble Earl who 104' brought it under our view, notwithstanding the ex-i" gency of the, occasion, I am still of opinion, th ir d it has been brought forward, it ought to -nu& rg° an' impartial and dispassionate discussion, aCcord4 to the .wise practice of Parliament upon allmatte o ' of such high aisd setiotis interest. Ii we are to eLr tertain the question at all, vie should discuss 0 parts with temper, and decide upon its merits with. impartiality; we'should alwas bear in mind the e!'. fed that our deci,ion may have upon. the passions! • ,the feelings, the prejudices - even, and the ireeresto of-.t4se great bOcty of then who will be ariemed bY' it. : In this slew of .the case, and in order that .04 ' way arrive at that fair, tinbias.ecl, arid dispo'' sionate result, which, up m every ground of polio anti Jilsti.e, it is oar duty to protno:e, it is, in roi . opinion, the dirty of 'your ' Lpldsilps, I) , _ tore y ,4 .co ne to any. decision upon the motion of titi:- .Noble Earl, it') take into your consideration—firs!, What the eti -- ec..t of your vote may he on ..th',- tat`' of Ireland as :it exists and is at present adinin s ' iered in that eounity—secondly, What the et1 . .. 0 may be upon ille . ditPrent br.inchel - 61 the executive gotertimeut of that country, as connected with the administration of the law, and with a view - t o the preservation - of tie tranquility of that country-- -4 . thirdly, What effect it may hive upon the remperi . the calm, sober, and dispassionate feelings of the people of that country, to which we should at alt times pay proper attention, 'whenever we proceed to the discussion of such subjetts-'---re'elings, the best that can emanate from.the human h eart; o f w hi c h trust I have ever been sensible, and on all occasioo proud, and which I base manifested every disposi; lion' to appreciat e , a s we ll on ' former otcasionS, . when the Catholic Question. has been agitated, ow in the recent instances of its discussion. The feelings to which I allude, are the true. . Sources of afar rfational glory, and upon „them, in my opi l Mon, rests, trot alone the security of the Empire," but the preservation of all those blessings whieli - Wei now possess ; or can hope hereafter to enjoy, in.. chiding the protection and security of the Protestaa