The Sun. — London, England, 1823-02-18 00:00:00

PA RI, 1 A NIENT. , HOUSE OF LORDS, FEB. 17. Lord It 41::1 IN DA LE, presented,, a petition from the traders al Witham, praying for an At for the more speedy recovery of =Small Debts. INSOLVENT DEBTORS' ACT. The Marquis of LANSDOWN said he held in his hand A petition from the merchants traders, and votherinhabitants ut' Shepton iUett, praying the repeal of tliednsolve.nt Debtors' isut, Ile begged to be under%tood at not concurring with the pectiohvrs to the extent of the total repeal of the Act. Ile Nal aiwAytt been in favour of the principle of the (Tsai° twiorum lo the most salutary which could be. acted upon ; 1u.t.0 de gree of fraud had crept in, anti it was highly desirable that the honest and fair tradegman should be protected against - a system which m many instances pressed severely upon hint. . • . INIARRIAGE .aCT. 'The Earl of 'l' N KERVI LI, E presented a petition from' .certain persons compleinitip,: of that part of the Marriage Act which abolished peculiar jurisdictions. Ile hoped that their ietiedships would now be 'enabled to pass a Bill tree from the t. ejections alluded to.in the petition, in doing which they would center aatreat benefit on the'public. • Lord EI.bENBOROUGH took the opportunity of the nre tentetion of this petitioe, to express his regret that so much in convenience:shauld havb resulted at the number of petitions presented testititd. the believed that nu Noble Lord, except .e legal lord or a member of the right reverend bench, was aware of the operation of ..the clause complained of. Legal .darde and Members of the right reverend bench must have been aware of its operation, anti he thought it a just subject of coine plaint on the part of the lay lords, that no legal lord or mem eetiet the right reverend bench bad risen in his place and stated the ineenvenience likely to arise from abolishing the jurisdive limes in question, which he saw no objection to restoring. He timid not conceive how the House was to do its duty to the public if dime who posseraed knowledge on any particular sub ject did nut give their opinions to the House. Lord STOWELL said he was not at all aware of the nutn bre of these pee telitirs : they were_ an entire distinct jurisdiction from that with which he was more particularly acquainted, and he entirely concurred in the propriety of restoring them, its they hed been inadvertently taken away. '. The Earl of SIIAP :ESBUR lir presented a petition from certain person% residing at Leicester, complaining; tai that elitist of the 3larriage Act, abolishing the pecul i a r jurisdic tions.. Lord ELLENBOROI,MII said, as • there would doubtless be many petitions of a similar nature, he would wish to under stand whether the Noble and Learned Lord meant not to op p: se the re-establishment of these juriedictions., I,ord STOWEbIe replied, certainly not. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, undoubtedly the case of thole jurisdictions was a very string one, but he should . wish to reserve his opinion both on this and evee i ry other part of .the subject to a more advanced state of the discussion. bora ELLENBOROIXIII observed, that in fact these were immemorial juristlictionin taken away without any grievance alleged. Lord REDESDA LE said be should have called the atten tion of the . House to this subject; 'but his reason for abstaining was a thorough conviction that whatever might be the decision Of the House, it was not for the general benefit that some of the jurisdictions should remain.. He could not understand on what pretence laymen should exercise an Riscupal jurisdic . time 111 some insteecee, tio far from being immemorial, they otiginated but since 'the Reformation; and in the Act of Parliament fur abolishing the religious houses, he could not find any mention of such a power preserved to any Inc ; he therefore doubted extremely whetheethere was any authority hilt usage. 'The LORD CHANCELLOR said, it was for the consi 'deretien of the ilottee mew, whether it wonla not be useful that Whatever alteratiens were to be made, the whole of the law on the subject ofinarriage should be embodied in one. Act. PrO feeeing himself a.s he tlitl4 as hostile to the injustice of taking easy these jurisdictions as any other Noble Lord, yet it would be very 33emrable that the doubt expressed by die Noble anti Learned bortii(ltedesdale) should be cleared up. He would venture to state to their Lordships, that many persons were nut metre that the power of granting presses was taken away. It' they leet continued in ignoranee of the law to grant licenses, these peraee might' have been wearied under, licences granted by pewit's not ;Authorized by law. If el/gel; of this sort had cmairfeel, end there were persoes who had involved themselves in 513tili consequeeces through ignorance of the law, he could net heeitate to make all' those marriages good; but it was nut ligtvkaiti y to discuss those poiiite if such e cut:mittet: mere an polnteel as he thought would ten The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said, that this being the it coed time within e :slier! period that a charge had been made against the Right Reverend Bench, he meet be excused fur tuldreetUog a few words to the 'intik , . A Noble and Learned friend of hie had undertaken the condtiet e" the ,nrospective eiettse, entlafttri that, be had certainly repoeed himself in se cority me that puini. .They were 'charged a few days ago with retake-di: i g the public.(to that charge most certainly he should not plead guilty), had they ,were told by Noble Lords that the ' +tuition, with respect to theee surrogates, was brim end intri; eiii:e, and that it hardly - was in the power of any individual to know either the extent. of their authority or its abuses. Ile ,certainly had heard it,stated, that it Would be convenient if the nombee ef surrogatee should be cut down, and it was so done, leaving the appoint:items to the Iliehops alone. Ile was not aware of any advantage or additional, security that was derived limn the alteration; and if there Were not, the objection was 'i .,, i1 ,,, tiatfitfi'::rit that it interfered with the vested rights of indi- YW.'.ialn. • herd STOWELL then moved that a Committee he appoint. oil to bike into consideration the present state of the law ram. tive to marriage, und whether any, and what. amendments are w neesitry in the details, and to report thereon. . Lord EIiLENBOROUGH said, be had the greatest plea. sure in eecorallng the inouon. 'There Was tio mode of proceed in; that could give bite greater 'satisfaction, or that, in his opinioo, would be Moro satisfactory to the Mame. He bad /agar{ wi.thed that the result of their Lordeliips` labours should Le *law giving ea little inconvenience to the parties, and as much :security to parents and guardians, at; potteible. fleeing no Niel knewledge, he could not himself lieve preeumetitto have incorporated the whole of the law in cm: scar but such I ws! alwaya his desire, and be was glad tint th;., Honourable and Ir.:fear:lid Lord on th'e woolsack had ex Dragged' a similar while Ife was convinced that the public at :age wueld learn with malefaction that the probable result woo' .1 be, that all the eneettnents on the riubject would be embodied in one clear law. --Ho must obiterve that the Noble and Learr. , d Lent (Stowell) we% almost the only one who wished to retaie ~se nullity clause : it would theiefore be desirable to know if 4 .v. - ire his intention to;bring that again under the consisleration.i.f the House. The iteenveniencee whieh were felt at present woelii, he trusted, in . .= ii , . , ce the Noble and Llarned Lord (Eldon) . - atici other Noble leerte to give the nupooarti as much of their attention as poi - hit.J.;, in older that no time might be lost in endeitiouring to perfeet it. •• - - , Lord srowELL said he bowed to the decision of the 14euee an, the retrospeetive clauses, but could not content to liirel himself from opposing his obgetions to other parts of the Isll4. ' • ' ".L.4‘,,ra ELLEIN/BOROUGII said, he gave full notice to the N WO Lord, that he "would . give every opposition in his power' to the detestab wie.propoion of the nullity of • marriage, and maintain thepriaciple of the indissolubility of marriage, which.lashyear the litare almost unanimously sanctioned; and their decision was umwed by thapublie at large. The Earl of WESTMORLAND concurred, in the senti rneettemclstoletd by the Noble Lord (Ellenborough), and view tee with coneidereble al...irm any attempt it: fe roar of the nul zits. el roieee The LOAD CHANCELLOIt said, it would. be recollected by the: lihuae, that hohoiy opposed the retrospective clause mere than he did ; and he should have no difficulty in Saying n'4ll, that with reete.e4 to pereoria ' who might stand in a better mitt:Wiwi front that 4viste lie should be inclined to act very cantiettsly. With respect to thtSprospective clause, though he tnieted the Committee woilllJ )say - attention to the opinion of tile Houeea expresvd in :the last Session of Parliament; yet tat.wee vole , soma inti:t4 tf that dale? which it might be well to eme oieider, His Lett'ship concluded by . pledging himself to give all the time which' he could ispere from the discharge of other duties to the cotalideration of thee Hill ; and would snake 'Wm stiggcstions to tlit'Cominit4t, thciugh perhaps he might not lekeleele to he it pasonsil4. .: The Committecwee thee appointed. Among the Members Were ) the Archbishop of Canterbury, the lend. Chanceller, the Bieber; of London tied rwcter, the Marquis of L trealown, lend Ifollaed, Lord I , :lleoborough, the Earl of Westmorland, tie . .. Earl of Shaftesbery, and Lord Orosvenor. Lard ELLENHORtitleill then moved that the see.oticl readily 1)1' the Marriage Act Amendment Bill should be post. porindi tot a fortnigli* - -.Agreed to. • AGRIC' /14TURAL PETITIONS. IATI! W./ITU:LI) prasented a petition from thy Nobility, Cl ,, rgy, Ana Gentry or the Hundred of Harpiagton, in. the examly of Norfolk, ccre:;laining of Agricultural Distress, pray ingf.,t itqf , irm, andtlieelairuing el participation en the pro. ceediegst the; Norfolk Rekeing. Tire Noble yati said the ye . 'WAD Wag uilth A by 'blue tfit most reipectable_ inhabitants pt di,: iiktntita . 'May dieelailPed'all partiortion in the COurity Meeting, and eicpreestel tleeip opinion on pettiest* of di; tae,s and remedies. They prayed* rellaradfieM (10/10ft .frt. 4 .mod were pinieularly mond e n Oita' vtevii, he Soli Lord was of opinion with the petitioners that Reform trust take place, and when opportunity offered, he should endeavour to make the Right Reverend cknch convert+, by proving that Reform was desirable on moral and religious grounds. --- il i ftepettilOnWlsread and laid on tio;tahle. Lord SUFFIBI,D also presented a similar petition f:om the Hundred of Greenhough, in the county of Norfolk. The pe. tition, however, did not contain a prayer fur Reform.—ltead, and laid on the table:. . AUSTRIAN LOAN. The Marquis of LANSDOWN - Said he had a question to put to the Noble Earl at the'head of his Majesty's Adminis tration, which, considering the present suite of agricultural dis tress, he conceived to he of great importance. It was well known that among the large sums of money sent nut of thin kingdom to foreign countries, one large payment had been made in the shape-of a lean many years ago. This subject was well known. to the public ; it had often undergone discussions in Parlia ment, and aasuratices were repeatedly made that it would be repaid. He 411adecl to the Austrian loan, and he understood , that there had been an intention on the part of oitrOovernment, to make the propoaed repayment of this money one of the sub- • jects - of the negociations at the Congress of Verona. He now wished to ask the Noble Earl if he could state what had been the result of the negotiation, or whether any negociation had taken place on that particular questiOn, and if so, whether there was any prospect of repayment. He hoped thatoo part. of this money would be employed in the prosecution of designs which every Englishman. ust reprobate. ' The Earl of LIVERPOOL replied, that transactione.of this sort must always stand on their own ground. If the Noble Marquis meant to say that such sums as this ought never to have been advanced, helLord L.) would tell him that, to ad vanees.of that kind, Europe was indebted forhe liberty which she now enjoyed.. The Loan in question could not regularly have been made a subject of discussion at the Congress of Ve rona, because it was a transaction between Austria and Eng- - land. He was not now about , to enter into the merits of this particular question ; but he could assure the Noble Marquis that since the conclusion of the peace up to the present time, the Englisit , Governm ent had been pressing Austria for. this debt; that discussions took place last year on the subject, when the. payment of the debt was again demanded, and he had no (Mfi- . culty in - saying that a principle of arrangement for -the 'pun. pose had been' agreed to by the Court of Vienna. •He, hoped to be.aoonable to state to the House that the same was en tered into. t • Lord ELLENBOROUGH thought it necessary to say, in. reply to what had • fallen from the Noble Earl respecting the,', freedom gained by, Europe. that the general feeling throughout this country now was, that the:advance of sums like this was likely to subject Europe to tyranny much more detestable than that which it was intended to avert. If Europe had been sub jected to such a tyranny, it wottld at least have been a console tion to think it was subject to a person who had some greatness in his character., • The Earl of DARNLEY said he knew very welt that it never was intended or expected that this debt should be paid ; and that it never would be paid. The war fdr the support of which thialetan had been ailVanced was badly conducted,; the loan did not promote its success; and he, therefore,: protested against the declaration of the Noble gait It had contributed to produce the general distress under which we were suffering ; and that distress caused persons who now attended public meet ings toadvocate:rinciples that were dan,,,feeroua to the country and its Constitution. Other wise he could not have conceived it possible that such a petition ns that proposed at the late Norfolk :'Meeting would have beeralfilopted. nereal cause of the pub lic distress was the enormous expence of the late war ; and he was sure that no relief could be afforded for the removal of that distress but a remission of taxes. The Earl of WESTMORELAND presented 'a petition from Nottingham against the Marriage Act. AFFAIRS OF IRELAND. Earl DA TINLEY alluded to the measures to be introduced for the relia of Ireland, and expressed a desire to know whe ther they were to originate in that House. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, he had no intention to in. traduce the measures to which the Noble Earl alluded in that House. subject nmst originate elsewhere. The Marquis of LANSDOWN presented a petition from the Burgesses and other inhabitants of Chester against the In.. solvo.,nt Debtors' Act..--Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. At the usual hour the SPEAKER took the Chair.—Mr. Scan. is T'r took the oaths and his seat. _ _ _ Sir 6: EtaifC g a; . ilniictii at in a Committee of Supply On Fridayy, he viould move for a vote of Seamen. ColonefilAGWEl4l4 presented a Petition from Noblemen and Gentlemen of Tipperary, praying a commutation of Tithes. INSOLVENT ACT. %!r. H. DAVIS, after some remarks, presented A Petition from certain merchants and traders of Bristol against the In solvent Debtors' Bill. Sir T. I.BIIIBRIDGE and Mr. BRIGHT supported the Petition, and it was laid upon the table, with two others, from Mercantile bodies of Ilrlstol, also presented by Mr. IL Dar Is. ' _ _ Mr. CARTWRIGHT laid upon the table .a Petition with the same prayer from Oundle. Mr. WEBB presented a similar petition from Glocester. Mr. COOPER spoke in its favour, contending that the pre sent lawuquired very considerable alterations.—lt was laid upon the table. • _ MARRIAGE ACT. Mr. MANSFIELD presented a Petition from the Preben daries, Si.c. of St. Margaret's, Leicester, against the Marriage Act. Dr. Pli I !AMORE vresenteda Petition from the Ray. Mr. Ftocett, against certain parts of the Marriage Act. Mr. DOUGLAS presented a Petition, with the same prayer, from the Rev. Edward Ferrol. ' A G =ULTIMA L DISTRESS. Mr. RICE said a few voids which were 'not audible, on lay ing upon the table a Petition from CaerMarthen, complaining of 'Agricultural distress, a repeal of the Assessed Taxes, and a modified Pro arty Tax. Mr. HUME regretted that he had not been able to hear the Honourable Gentleman 114, he wished, in regard to the inten tions of the Hon. Gent. respecting the prayer of the Petition he had just laid upon the Table. Would the Hon. Gent. now support measures of economy, as be (Mr. Hume) was not aware that they had yet had the benefit of a single vote from him ? It was highly important that the constituents of County Members should undenitand what course their representatives were disposed to take. Mr. RICE had no objection to satisfy the Hon. Gentleman so far as to inform him that he should continue to vote as hi therto upon measures as they came before the House.—(ilear !) —He did not conceive tharhe; Or any Member, was called upon to pledge himself to a particular line of conduct during the Session.—(Hear, hear l) —The present was not the usual and regular mode of extracting information; and if the lion. Gen tleman brought forward any motion of economy, he should, as before, exercise his discretion as to its fitness or otherwise.— (Hear, hear !) The Petition was then laid upon thelahle. Mr. GRENFELL gave notice of a motion for tomorrow, for accounts of monies paid to the Bank for what was called managing the Public Debt. Sir it. PARNELL gave notice of a motion for papers re. garding the expences ofplybead Harbour, Light-houses, &c. Mr. CURTEIS laid pp the table a Petition from the Hop. planters of the parish of Burwash, Sussex, and moved for an ;account of the duty paid on hops of the growth (4'1822, distin 11-dishing the districts. Mr. ABERCROM BY renewed his motion of last Session for copies of the proceedings at Glasgow in the case of forth wick, and of the authority under which the Clerk of the Court of Justiciary granted the concourse of the Lord Advocate of Scotland, _ _ lola upon the table a Petition frost Mr. Thomas !nonagon, of Sligo, as was understood, respectirtg the right of voting in thut.town. CITY PETITION. The Sheriff's of London preaentrd at the bar the Petition of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Commons, of the City of London, for Parliamentary. Reform. Mr. Alder., an WOOD, in moving that it be brought up, referred ,e. er (occasion, when the wesentatiun of a pelt.. y bad been postponed for some time in order to, stets, who did not come to the House till late, Otn • • •,..: , y'of paying some attention to it. Remonstrances of the kind, now about tu be laid on the table, were not usually letil received; but there had been occasions when the sent'• meats of the citizens of London were most graciously accepted. Ile should be glad to know whether Ministers intended to give any Impels .respecting the -prayer of this Petition for Reform. It complained bitterly of their conduct, and the present state of the country wss attributed partly to mal-administration anti partly to the defective state of the representation. The Pe.. titian was long, but ice should nevertheless call upon the clerk to read it through, that Ministers might be fully aware of theimpottance of its contents. As fur as regarded the City Psrliament, no. inconvenience had been found to result front azinual elections ; contests took place , sometimes fo_e every lmard within the and two thousand voters Viler; polled in s one of them without any difficulty or coats. !Sion. The petitioners sympathized with the distresses of the agiculturists; but they were many of them not less distressed themselves ; though in generel the shops of the traders in Lon don might be open, their profits were greatly reduced, and they . could scam/41,3y their taxes, much 100 the rates to which they were subjected ; they prayed for such a representation as every free country ought to enjoy. He moved that the petition be brought up, and laid upon the table. The petition was then read. It complained at very conside rable length of the miscentlect of Governmenr, which had re duced the country to its preientdistreseed state, and ascribed the whole evil to a defective representatiore,,which deprived . die people of England ox a due controul over the Ministers of the Crown. . r , • Mr. Alderman 'WOOD apolo c eited for the tinic,Clehich the petition hail occupied in reading. Ili was happy, however, to see that a Rightlion. Gent. (61r. Canning having come in in the interim) would be,acquainted with its contents. Mr. CANNING begged to dieclaini.theudvantagelittrihut. cd to hiM. lie was not indebted for hie acquaintance with the petition to the circumstwe of his having conqinto the House while it was being read, because he had seen it in all the news. papers some mouths ago. Mre CREEVitIY" thought that' one of the most important features in the petition was the statement applyin to the . It appeared that between the Year isula l o o p oi t in io of a n the Enprttllnd. t time, our population had increased from 6,000,090 to 12,000,004 and yet, during this in. creme .of the population, the industry, and wealth of the country, the elebttve franchise (ai regarded the number of persons enjoying it)' had been- stationary, if not abating. For instance, 1,900 men in the 'county of Cornwall elected more members amongthetn than were elected by one half the other, counties in England ; and this while new towns of immense consideration had sprdng up; Which were kept without any elective franchise at all. If these new towns, with populations of three or four hundred thousands—towns which contribute largely to the income, to the power, to the security of the state —if the inhabitants of theie towns were totally shut out from the elective franchise, while 1,1)00 (he believed he might say)! of the most worthless individuals in the country enjoyed ati. enormous monopoly of it, sur e ly all this called for something like revision. —(Hear, hear !)—That part of the :petition Which complained of the distribution of the elective privileges might have gone (and it would have been worth while) to show the manner in which those privileges had been conferred. It was all nonsense to talk of the immunities of these boroughs stand. in upon rights ancient and immutably--upon grants coeval with the first existence of Parliaments. This wns all fable. In one periothof 116 yeave, from Henry VIII. to James 1., no fewer than 190 members had been added to the House of Com- inons.—(llear, - hear !)--Surely there was nothing quite sacred in, privileges so given. In the reign of Elizabeth such mat delicacy bad not,been observed, for a committee of the House had been appointed expressly to inquire, why certain members returned fora borough had been so returned.--(Cheers.)—Why, Mx or seven boroughs in this very county of Cornwall owed their elective privilege to Edward VI., who had begun to reign at nine years old, and died at 15. Surely the, house which he was addressing was es well able to dispose of the elective fran chise as k:dward VI. could have been.—(Blear, hear !)-lle was decidedly of opinion that, before the House discussed the fuestion of Reform, it ought to hav e up on th e ta bl e an account rom the returning officers of all the boroughs in England, , containing the date.of each borough's charter, the number of its electors, and the circumstances under which it first received 'the right of sending members to Parliament, Mr. Creevey sat down, by.observing that a committee appointed for the purpose would have no difficifity in obtaining the return which he con templated ; anti he believed that a noble friend of his, wile sat near him, would move for one. Mr. T. WILSON should not have thought it necessary to follow the Worthy Alderman opposite, had it not been for the • i i respect he entertained for the City of London. As regarded the first part of the prayer, of the petition, he confessed he was most anxious to see economy carried through every depart merit of public expenditure; but he could not go on. to pledge himself to give his suPport to any and every measure for retrenchment that was brought forward. As to Reform in Par liament, he pledged himself to his constituents to be in his place. whenever that subject was agitated, to pay the utmost at tention to the discussion raised upon it by those better qualified . than himself to do so ; and to vote accordingly. • • • Lord JOHN RUSSELL saw so little objection to die' pro-- posed of Mr. Creevey, that he would move for the Committee in question to-morrow. lie might as wellmention at the same time, that his motion upon Parliamentary Reform, which would he precisely the same motion be had made last year, would be, brought forward on the 24th of April. In the meantime, it gave him infinite satisfaction. to see the growing interest which all the enlightened classes were taking in the question. :The House had just heard the well-drawn and able petition of the Corpora tion of London,. and a' petition from the County of York was coming up on.the genie subject, which would be signed by nearer twenty than ten thousand persons) These were some of the liveliest sparks emitted from the dying embers, of Reform.. FOREIGN E•NLIST3I ENT. Lord ALTHORY gave notice, that he should move on Thursday next to repeal the Foreign Enlistment . COMMUNICATION WITH SPAtN., Sir It. WILSON understood that a great number of in'er chants were anxious to have a packet ,established to Corunnh. - If he was not mistaken, sonic applications had been made. to Government upon the subject. Mr. CANNING aid that this was the first he bad heard of the mattet. TIIE LITE DR. JENNER. A MEMBER, whose name we could not learn, requested, to know whether there was any intention on the p art o f th e o vernment to pay the tribu6 of a monument to the late Dr. Jenner ? iiii)llANCEl.4l..Olt of the EXCHEQUER acknowledg. ed the important services Of Dr. Jenner. Mr. PEEL said that there was every disposition on the part of Goren:anent to have given Dr. Jenner a public funeral, and a tomb in ‘Vestminster.abbey ; but that the relations of the de= ceased wished the funeral to be private. ' On the motion that the House should resolve itself into a. COMMITTEE 01' SUPPLY. Mr. CREEVEY rose to expresa his surprise at the mode in which Ministers now.n.days called upon the Ilouse for supply: Ile believed that there was scarce a, difference of opinion upon the state of the country, scarce a denial that persons were every day falling from respectability, nay, from opu lence, into absolute beggary ; and yet the officers of the Crown came forward for supplies as a matter of COUTO". He must really trespass shortly upon the time of the House to compare the course which had been usual In days gone by—in days, how. ever, when the royal prerogative had been by no means so well defined as at present, and when the burdens borne by the peo ple had been considerably lighter ;—he must compare the course adcipted in those times with that taken in our own days by the Ministers of the Crown. In the reign of Queen Elizabeth, when Coke was speaker of the House, and when such men as Bacon and Sir Welter Alildmay, Chan cellor of the Exchequer, on asking the House fora supply, expressed himaelf in the following terms :—" But least that peradventure some may judge that the contribution granted by us now five years past, both frankly and dotifully, might suffice for many years without any new, I dare enure you, for the acquaintance that I have (though I be unworthy) with those her Majesty's affairs, that the same bath not been suffi cient to answer the extraordinary charges, happened since then, especially those of Irelands by the one-halt'; but her Majesty bath supplied the rest out of her own revenues, sparing from herself to serve the necessity of the re a lm, an d shunning thereby loans upon interest, as a most pestilential canker, that is able to devour even the states of Princes." The generosity of the Queen in that instance was not less titan the wisdoM of the Mi. nister. But now, although we had a pestilential canker of 7 or 800 millions devouring us, Minister!' came down for money as though nothing at all were the matter. But, to give the House a second instance of the state in which such matters were formerly conducted, in the 38th of Elizabeth, upon a question of money, Sir Robert Cecil brought forward the, motion for supply; and Sir John Fortescue, Chancellor of the Exchequer, in supporting the motion, after stating all the Queen had done' at home and abroad iridefending her neighbettra and her king. dom against the power of Spain, said—" Besides, when her . Majesty canie to the Crown, she found it four millions indebt. ed ; her navy, when she came to view it, she found greatly de cayed; yet all this she has discharged, end, thanks to God, i s i nothing indebted t and now she is able to Match any Prince 1 in Europe, irhlch the Spaniards found when they came to' invade us. Yea, she bath with her ships compaesed the whole world, whereby this land is made famous throughout all placed. As for her own private eXpencea, they have been little in build. fag ; she bath consumed little or nothing in her pleasures ; as for her apparel, it is royal and princely, beaeeming her calling, but not sumptuous nor excessive; the charges of her house small ; yet, never less In any Kitties time, and shortly; by Cad's grace, she will free her subjects *on) that trouble which bath come by the means of purveyors. Wherefore she trusteth that every good subject will assist her Majesty with his purse, see. lug it concerns his own good and the preservation of hia estate, and for these subsidies which are granted, now they are less by half than they were in Henry Vllf.'s time." Now, all this tool; place just after th e d e fe at o f the Spanish Armada, and at time, therefore, when the people would probably_ have granted the Queen any thin g s h e cou ld - have asked. Why, when the Ministers of the present day came to ask for supply—why did they not come in the same tone and with something like the same Assurances, with state ments o f economy carried into practice, and promises of the abolition of grievance:,'? Whersthe agri eultursts werainvolved in ruin—when they were stitTering from the change in the s t ate o f t h e cu rrency, would it not hr. rea sonable that at least every official salary which had been raised e other miseries, j a i r er t i l— esi M resulting o during the .depeciation should be reduced to its original leve (Cleara landed Interest, in addi t i on to its r from' the sudden an d un justifiable recourse w hi c h wa s had to a • metallic cur. lt t i h n e g , tenor, to hear alto the, burden of Salaries. which had been rents now that the currency increased on swum :of t h e f a rmer depreciation of that cur. °tight "tite, not to be reduced, had so far increased ? This applied to pe:so:ta of all deocrip- - i tin e who held places from the highest to the lowest. The si uecuree had been tolerated log enough. It was the duty, of Ministers to obolish 0161 forthwith. ,ad this they ought espe cially to have done, before they tune to a* the Rouse to vote fresh supplies. If the Ministers of Queen Elizabeth thought it theirduty, to -preface their 'motion' for 'supplies, wi a communication that the grievance of purveyances had been abated,so much the more were we now entitled to relief, from the no less burdensome grievance of sinecures, .that immense more load which fOr the enjoyment of the privileged orders was. members of the tummunity. it would consistent with their duty, if Mini sters l h a a id ve up be on en thfae. otherr had recommended the Crown to sacrifice a pan of its revenue to the wants of the people. No man now lie lug could tell 'what might be the result of the country's elms anon. No man could say. whether the present distresses might not end in a Conflict for the possession of property. Let any man look at the temper displayed at the, county meetings which were daily, taking place; let them look at the heart.bornings which existed between persons hav ing opposite interests, and different descriptions of property. He knew of only otie thing which could prevent a fatal ter mination to this state of things, anti that was ecknoiny— (llear !)--strietand universal economy. lithe Crown would give up part of the civil list, he had no doubt that so noble an exam ' plc mould be followed by the most beneficial consequences.-- He was led to ask the reason of the difference between the mode of granting supplies now, and at the period to which he had alluded. In the time' of Queen Elizabeth, the supplies had been considered as sacrifices on the part of ehe subject, which were to be appropriated to some public purposes. The Mem. hers, and those whom they represented, had one common ob. ject. The House of Commons had not then invented or dis covered the means of applying the supplies to their own private benefit or emolument —(Hear ),--A perfect revolution had been effected in this respect in the House and in the country. Eight hundred millions of debt--a patronage of themost injurious ex tent, and corresponding establishments and influence, had placed the administration of the country in such a condition as could not have been imagined in the - time of Queen Elisabeth. The Ministers of the Crown had introduced this patronage in to the House of Commons. He did not state this invidiorsly, but it was the fact. It was known that 'Ministers possessed the power of giving away offices, and that Members very na turally thought their sons, their relations, or their friends, were as fit to fill them as other persons. This it was that had created a revolution in the character of the House, and this he maintained to be the true stilution of the difference between the manner of asking supplies now and then. To ask for them now, was only to ask alembers to help themselves, and to supply their families and friends. It was known to every one, that in the Report of the Committee re l a ti ve t o t h e office of Receiver-General, it appeared that two or three Members had been scrambling for the same place. In thp reign of Ed , ward VI.. a part of the SubSidy Bill provided, that no Mem ber should take any part in the collection of it; and now Gen tlemen were riding awe one another, in pursuit of their shares. The Constitution was no longer composed of that equal and wholesome division of power between the King, the Lords, and the Commons; but between the Crown and the Mini sters,, one .of whom held the power, and the other the pa. mime° of the State. Much was said of the splendour of the. Crown ; but it' it were to be compared with that which was displayed by Queen Blizabeth, it would ho seen that it was now redueed to a mere raree.show. 'We heard of the King being lit or well, and of his making occasional excur. sione; but we had no satisfactory, no intimate knowledge of him. He was in fact a mere splendid annuitant upon his Ministers; but as for the sympathy between the Court and the people, which had distinguished the past era to which he had so often been compelled to refer, there was not a vestige of it left. Not only had this revolution taken place, but officers of State had been introduced whose names had never been heard of before. The manager of the Heim of Commons was now talked of as familiarly as the first Lord of the Admiralty : he was a recoge nized officer, and such a one as never could have arisen but from the cause he had *fated.: He would beg permission to quote to the house a speech of Lord Bacon's, on this subject, who, in that very' place, had treated as a chimera the attempt to manage the House of Commons. It was. delivered in the first year of the reign of James L, who, when he creek to the throne was much more anxious to obtain money than the house was willing to grant it to him. It was rumoured that certain officious tnembere had undertaken to get for the King the sup plies he wanted. The debate was conducted with considerable beat, and the matter treated tie a violation of the ditty of the house. Lord Bacon, who was then the Attorney-Generel, and sittingin Parliament, merle the f a llowi ng s p eec h " Air. Speßker—l have been hitherto silent in this matter.; of undertaking wherein the House ix much enwreoped,—first, be cause, to be plain with you, I did not well iinderstand what it meant or what it was, and I do not love to offer at that that I do not thoroughly conceive, that private men should undertake for the Commons of England ! by a man might as well undertake for the four elements. It is a thing so giddy and so vast, it can. not enter into the head of a sober man, and especially in a new Parliament, when it was impossible to know who should be of the Parliament, and•when all men that know ever so little the constitution of this House do know it to be so open to reason as men do rim know when they enter into these doors what mind thernmelveS will be of until they hear things argued and debated ; much less can any man make a policy of assu rance what ship shall come safe into the harbour in these seas. There were Undertakers for the plantations of Derry and • Coleraine, in Ireland, the better to command and bridle those parts; but for the ancient Parliament of England, which moves in a certain manner and sphere, to be undertaken, it passes my reach to conceive what it should be, Must there be some forts built in this House that may commend and contain the rest ?. Alr. Speaker, I know but two forts in this House, which the King ever bath—the fort of affection, and the fort of reason ; the one commands the hearts, and the other commands the heads, and others I know none. Then for the King, no. thing can be more opposite to his end,' and hopes than this— for you have heard him profess like a King, and like a gracious King—that be doth not so much respect his present supply as the demonstration that the people's hearts are more knit to bins than before. Now, then, if the issue shall be this, that whatso. ever shall be done for hint shall be thought to be done but by a number of persons that shall. be laboured and packed, this will be rather a sign of diffidence and alienation, than of a natural benevolence and effection in'his people at home, and rather mat tee of disreputation than of - honour abroad ; so that, to speak plainly, the King had better call for a new pair' of cards than play upon these if they b e p ac k e d ; an d then for the people, it is my manner ever to look AN well beyond a Parliament as upon a Parliatnent ; and if they abroad 1,41 l think themselves betrayed by those that are their deputies and atternies here, it is true we may bind them and conclude them, but it will be with such murmur and insstisfartion as I would be loth to see. These things might be dissembled, anti so things left to bleed inwardly; but drat is not the way to cure them : and therefore I have searched the sore in hope that elm will endeavour the medicine." .—That which Lord Bacon had discussed as a mere chimera, had now come to pass. The cards were now packed ; that House was ,packed. His Ho n . F r i en d the Member for Shrewsbury had shown satisfactorily that th cre svere seventy-nine Members in that House who might be called the court cards. It appeared, also, that th e y rece i ve d' 8 ,000/. per annum of the 'public: money, and on questions of supply they might be called sure cards. But these, numerous as they were, were inconside. Table compared with those who were bound to Mlnistere by be. nefits received by different parts of their families. If a list could be shown of all the per sons who had applied for a share of the advantages of this patron age , and added to the 89 other persons, it would be seen the majority preponderated so far es to render it vein to expect any relief for the necessities of the country. This, then, was the solution of the manner in which supplies were now voted. He would do ail that the forms of the House would allow him on the pp resent occasion, and he would propose, in addition to the motifin that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, that it should also take into eons'. r b a t ed g calledatbe upon etiatl e sei neet ha t t ne o i e f a e ' tt n hw a e te ;y oe : aeration the means,of allealating the grievances of the people.— This had been done over and over again, and the right of tic. cussing grievances before supplies had been often asserted. The SPEAKER then put the Amendment. Strangers were ordered to withdraw,' when • Mr. , CREEVEY withdrew his amendment, and said he wished only to obtain a pledge front Ministers that the nee. plc's grievances shpuld have that immediate attention to which they were entitled. Alr. Secretnry . CANNING did not with to detain the House, but he thought it necessary to explain, in very few wbrda, the view which lie took of' the question before them. If he op posed the instruction which had been proposed, he begged that it might not be contended that he or that any of his AiSjesty's rain Ministers objected question whicht th i e n House ight bc alleged grievance. 111 opposed the motion, as it seemed to w it him a a d s l i t ia b r o d e ett unnecessary , () speechcnu and ri t cl a t the e l u i w p o a s o n n i l u h r r i a m e b i t s e h e Gentleman, felf t o proposition with which he had concluded, was submitted to them with a view to any practical mereture. On this ground he mum give it his negative. fie should have offered no reply to the Speech of the Hon. Gentleman, no: should behave taken notice of any of she taunts which it contained, but for the remarks. which had been made respecting the conduct of an illustrious Personage. which had been rather strangely brought thentery He c° ul4 languagehardlye but ge after wh at be felt on this subject in Parliathe forward on this occasion. sacrifice which had been made during the last Session of Par liament in that high quarter, to use constitutional language by the Ministers of the Crown, but which regard for constitu tional language alone prevented him from saying, had been made at the instance of the illttstrious Personage himself— after the sacrifice which had been made, but after the mannft i ti n to w efo hieh wyt th h e a a d rra bee :g : r g r i;e n n tl u f p ° 7 l h: rl d, Y e tr' ti aa ti e a t k . f ttl ar hb tl .‘l,,c,t ) ..riti ati tti, t ja l is e tsoto th rir e°l l ll d e ,ri d eeerthec Qf c () ei ctr ip.sori rt uoi ' do :f yr.. C .: 4 ,,,i.„l4. whi ch had now been urged, that no sacrifice bad been made t c the part of the Sovereign, would be adopted by that Hous e , orwitgirethhrtattoovtethtirreaksbpeaed;ecogrhodoafcteht.hisell,iile.thouebesntere)thEytntirroeenp.i lyieo.ll:3 t i h ic ou b g a n d t t i: ;1.1 „ Mr. W. LAMB maintained, that the state of the Crows Revenue at the present time and the time alluded to was ." PrePer tubjett for Parliamentary discussion, or if it was to he . made the subject of that discussion, he law no advantage to il .. gained by going back to those times when the power °f t ' ° ' Crown was such. that the King's officers might seize for the King's use any thing in any market in the country. Br,W e l those times and the present there was certainly A O at " 1 3 .: rence i but the advantage was all on the side of the prese There had been one important change sMce the iterehitur,. Before that event the Crown intd, an exteneive feudal Revenes solely at its own disposal—out of this the ordinary erPe nc 4 •, were paid, and as demands were made upon Parliament ore!, upon extraordinary cases, the importance of the caseitselftega ' them watchful of what they granted. Now, the er°Yien lie. resigned those Revenuee, and depended wholly y.noo,'' ir - r merit for its stipport • and if the Houle were to raise a wee • the propriety of gran' ting that support which were r ei suehleondutt would involv • doubt of s upporting Elle '— ' its t- a Mr. lITI3I£ admitted, that it was very true the ging ~ , not now possess the same feudal power as before the get', tion. King William, when he was called to the Threannt pledged himself to make over the Crown lands for the bnri! of the public ; and by a Statute of 1 Anne it they should-be made.aver for this purpose ; hot the ti t l a f, t oole that the public had lost by the transier—they had now • t i v 110 the public fr ti O al t in neC. t r h a a m is n le eo e : m PC o tl: l e- u ee:i ni s7 c i t : i : t tg. e to pay the expence of keeping in order the Crown letotlet„, then was wholly consumed seeourusateeektr,eehpeavoneuredisudssesh.. Crown to pay, andeth addition w this , , %ie. it he m ar :is f 7 li and th li t l o e e by and by, when we come to see what the amoun t ot _ .O 1 people will think o_AtlLea'the 1 There was one circumstance which hail been shut' I ke . I , the co , Report of - tion of the Customs at the Pohrriaotia7.°Diluelebrlliall:elrt:-Ignr",ari thiel -about 84,0001: whereas it could be t done for •12.001 h. t i l o p o for otttports of Ireland, which came to 10.0001. migh t " e. ' via' of 35 n.and thus upon one branch of the roam' g Sa Uralic . 77,0001. might be effected. lie meant to sobtrit to the meg, l a motion reepecting the poundage paid on the collec..ioelircene. Stamp Duties. This cost the country more then ti":ero and. and he was well assured it could he done for two or t' i ce e eett half. .H e was convinced that there was an influr, rime lot s prevented economy, and was sorry that his lion. i r ' not persisted in hi motion. en rroul , W fol T lo h w e a c le H i A io N tio C u E ra lt e o o ll en o ti f eto d a te n ItitXrouCleiiEt nil the e uf 0 the tints o f es speech. He was anxious, however, t , otter a few ". iicg ireel 11 l a Pi a ti " respecting the Crown Lands: The ovenot a,r! , 0 ,,,,e, t tese lands did not go to the Crown, or the servants of t' the but was carried inupediatel to thtegeneral revenue ot r",c,, ere try, He himself held no Crown. Lentil+ and he 0' 34 n t th e le thanthe Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) held I L ` t . t The knew, that of all landlords the Crown was the har o t • bid j e t : l dt e liv as den e a s olt e tob f r i ti t ho s eg i m a 4 n lo i d l , s owe b:e t i . ng always by law let to the big", bet l'' No doubt an offer of rer.ewal was made to the le' s° '',e an was riot till a survey had been made by a swots if t • the lessee t refused hmsotob,tneeriesu t itif o l",,,ai.:e a resißn i wtt e stetha i e loolg ew p e:gi t tse h l.hlce,ti e oliuteln.i o rot otet fi viihetiat 'e tono r tio)vtot , :iiedeut t rg:t ' a: t ien e rsiNalte n oaogrttatcyt t lollic.oti.ceitrk.ll:::::::b oiylnusaC:Trtatgr:e!fjt,:i7cr)lo,-;:°!)etuglhxpeotmiper:rese:cee:ll:4l::::l,;;.. h ieaflee w oabtdaeb ln e ful e : ew att w e r wtiiien e yo rith i n oosth i iofet h n ctiee u fshtnoi ci ( e ehatxn h tt l a h,nehien k esiny e escmenau f et, t we ci thea annual and h rspbr r oe e oc v co el e i d t:e & fr s om the tl y ie a e r r os ow e n b l a a::: be ' teo d i ia ie s n t ::: lic e a n t t l i v en ati lan tag , e, the sums to which he had alla ue( :'..l -- stood ' 45 }de o rin u ieoT t iht n sese : ss i hi r giop e i ; A te llai e ch. i a n , : jol t ni h n. e tt)o llea n l sh u o t f t t . f h those h ' . l o:u n li en s w q_ t h ; : ir: c ii - h an .c :o l l e a bt l::1 ::: coc3olosninilanisalrtiet what .Ministers. fthi‘ev ene 1514:0:7:erd:ualivpve, Oenietfou.cip,hrelar3u:y.:ol.l7nitilierai,)tre era way. This o w n ee ti „ so p p e p r u h c a o pe tio , o i o n f t t h h e e tn op o i h n e io y n , ti tfle Nos 3 Ps till. ' a Committee t zt4 :f oo e t , a :C oo ll i) i . i i N tothi C io w s " ll ,4, 9 l. l vic a l . le T lii . :l o l h :sr ß aa*:° o futh f acit t :etter e o°tlr E El c: C liwrla l ill E all Q llll:ll:wetll4) * (irtitt:itein'elt:l.°ll::h: l elf::u. ct f ''ir:l:c:jitel e origin . _„ 4 ,, y r ..' Exchequer " 12,000,090/oth Ibe gran a for e ri s o 1" ouit inu e ed gr bt ‘ e a ct n u tf e t forj‘rittoh.elipt,A2titi.eci-litnea; orei ivfe.#3.::::;2l: put. w N z i v . th t A o r ß es ß pe E ctto t a he q d u u es ti ti e on accrues w ue the v wi l i t i :e l ifi le i l' i li s l:.:) sinnersoltinh4f voice, rii c( t 3 h i e A p ls u . r c i: E or L t which,oLfoß ,of as tb e far E, x e c o j : i : t Q a b:e7oi s ti:o Il e s , : t. 4 q i 3 n i n l i r e j w .ot he b t up h ia e lY r di t an h tfg e 'Exu tn cTicw m hel i vu t g te ; r e beß o til F .lLes o e-e.:s-c e l g - at 1 - u i l ' lTe t I . I r l i Trade i t c (ei s ; s :27l e l , 1 11 : - s f- r: e e tt 115 0 : fit: t f. . ;,i t .. i: le n ere ed o i f n t t i lLe e l e a tas st S e e e e t s . io ie n i : uiry the co rr g a5 ., 11 : ` should l b questionkp t t whl i i i a s e n a : sYrousspcu reasons, e t ii t n ul t suspense de considerable 3 : o t t o ild l a t o et e e r r g at e b e p r le : r t f i t ineg :"l :73: u:bes°' :I'l'l g desirable,eet T a h r e F lou l :e r ordered T e to h e me o rec ity iv u ed ii t i o o .m , ; h rsoe i n ter • toy e e c7mTmheitAtentitteon..eamoorroodriiveot rirrne°adwl'aTsreaea74oliiilrit s :,bee:::".rageal:atra.tilsr6%4':::' a time ir t . t i o n b 7 e m c I ti ,, rn r mi ose tt t e o d in to u . v n e icu fo r r ow " . lll,aecount of the no..n t. 0 ti a : distributors rna th ll e . they have hi of i a gifi h ts eoefDh an sits d aSemvi em er‘plias o li l iiß u Y ments which ,they re ceiv4 fJ aP°: in Great Britain,:a' sYet‘rn ter° iti _ t oh e t veme ta rtl; n k :es made v.Ps:tthil.ll): o :: e l : I t:htlecle : r1 : : ; postponed last session, in consequence of o fuel ia2l wi ede t d alal: d llgnlye b t:Colt e e orai d 7h O n: n d° : intlnlwi:tihst thrown e 'When titlltrnbwj reference weasoebutl:l3l3a : r i ! hlbneuell t i arilm li ci ecaeiditttet'l Committee 1 : 1 ifiwn:':'° l nes irr.nti ti'l:le'l ti‘r : ac'til e ar:c:thise- it0:41:; 6 'i'll ' ds triinfo_it:tittuahteomris:toiton* urposeof stamps. to House on n on at t ha he v s in u g bi te ge e t n . l ol a b o b. meet of therevimi ar a rtaing correctly a wh in 3t itf illiate,h ... o which were adopted `,did not or Ile, , otc h 0 i „ that Ministers ought to be suffered to go on, t u t chi a f rei enwnestijecotmTlaactrimide,.diisttwriobuultdorbsedcoitinaiiid:leed or no mous allowancee to those individuale, when i°uF i n. orte e „ 3 : o sons could be found who would perform the du e t): V i l e pg''„ l " e l l f the sum. In York and Norfolk, perhaps, 0 ,141- er :oou' . h a s i lA r e e ht e he u red i s pe it en e t : fo u wr t e in instance. a, Scotland :ce: 41 , 00 1 it In peerthii,r2d:olf. thrt_en;ruei::ence;,, cs _ en ntst meat .c ii U w ln . n i O w d r il itl Y: ' , :r y w er l : lli r; ceived by the distributor, when 400/. per annum `"Thetn # l, They employed deputies, .to whom they alLoweiLl,S. , 0 4 li yi P o - 1 ..4 vel for the return. Mr. LUSHINGTON • • of ,troto , said, the distributors j ia o ve entitled to • a just and fair remuneration, alai theY that t o The Ron - . 0-entleman conclave • te_eive o more. The Hon. Gentleman must recolleetisiderati,.ol al b in e °d e . n tie r i e ch ti os u ni c l i y .d alar t pe l r l ye o h w te . n — ksei n °ant l hh e ee m sfeu o lP t bt i : o li n .cact s se • ni : tit.ea t is i:e et n birlien qa T:dilltie9 '47 :ll.4b , :ti° '''' re nn made . ducta :l. amount ytto olaeatiniwelBch o F :i! h e t' ecl lis l: Id thei n ' ind7 t i 'ltSeioSte Jerksl conceived a eri x 2 NE s e a Itf n ß°l:°hwe r 1 '() theremove2Cl irc oo e 7lf t} :' , :rf oot 4:l.4BNP;re : ;:ti l nc': ee lk ` il; k °b°s . :ll: t ltl3ll: l.es ie;c:hl::l4l°:. 8 and 900,000/. had been redeemed i but the c,', f ii - 11 4 ati v'..i PI .orrunoeuon ~,. that , ail ". sued .to receive a poundage on that portion Wi 4C TOO"' jex liquidated.--(lienr!)--.The Hon. Gentleman the g ran ted j. `, .An Abstract of the allowances of poundage, g r3- rsel t, t ,e 38di Geo. 111., to the clerks of the commission eit, i o 9 l/ . 1 1 tax, or to other persons connected with that , inu, t 3 O 0, 1 ' tax which had been redeemed, from the 29th of e tt I. e hell , 743 M rd r. er H e tNIE wished to move fora paper. e l t4l 7 I t h otl4 t e a e b iv le ete on ie F rie ri re da i v e . f t T he o La sho n w c" Ch ali e rtlatl' e e el 01 l • office, he alluded to the case of Mr. W. IllsKlili t ;elosl e bil been Receiver-General for Middlesex . Thal ' n „„" - , 1 tlef,' - eeid held the situation for 25 years, and had never Pe ` ... a SOP ly ' eV a e T d ne ti nw pr oatsh o office. The object of the bill which had been psso duty d'oi since was to compel Receivers. General to do theit. su ie. oo . o l selves. Here again, great extravagance was a d o fa s eeeleil l whole duty of the collection for die city of 11 0 " - , e - ittP:Ate to be performed by a banker for 1,4001. all expon i e r et eenro4 but 51Misters, who were above all economical red o ne al "Oot e p or o n s ae i t t pro position, I n o , l nt aaanndyyeaaipnrp,soi!netaseiddsestw,i_nvollilice, cioyfratailiffr°pfoi,risisits:4o:l given to the public. eleaeral h nolo ,reweletoluchtyhoafdabifefortoolotp shill Mr. LUSIIINGTON said, the Rece:vers-,v'Te, of s e - t iov 10'wances granted them under the r econnneno g " - e - t an/ til mittee of that Rouse. If the Hon. 111 ember ehc 4 . e a v to rot i, ~, bring forward a specific charge, he would be t rt e . prOt e g ill He contended that Government had bebtreed_e e loerefaet , not . , yielding to the recommendation which hew , Je oweiers rn to allow a banker to act in the capsettY Ti,m:a of t a d they had found the greatest difficulty i t n n ,Set ed e n g t , ie P'* - commendation..-The paper was then.cr- . and the House Adjourned.