The Sun. — London, England, 1812-06-23 00:00:00

tnglanu l , Crinilnat 63niliket to lie enctured ?" He cautioned the !loose to beware of their decision on that night: The event would thew whether they represented the Ministers of ringlAnd oethe people of Pelatid:- The sacred ilame of independence is Ireland had become t.r r en era/ re verberated front hlelfast to.,Cork, 'fai.un Wicklow • to Mayo: It had been ;kaare 1 That the present question was nortO he considered as - a \rioverti. 7 tent' question. The people of:lreland, liowever, Were not to be so - galled. , The_y knew there- was 110 since - fity in this -. poinf'on the part of Ministers, tacept indeed iiid;Noble Lord, because he WaS ttti Irishman, and knehr' - the necessity of the coricei- 4 l ion. He atsuted those Members" who were diS- Ilosed to vote against the Catholic Claimi, that vhen Ministers found, as they' would find; that. k ,he people of Ireland Were in earnest, they' leave them in- the lurch, as fit objects " . for the of scorn to pointits slow and moving finger Human nature would not en:lure more than certain degree of oppression. • He trusted that he should not live to 'see ,the day when that line should be paz . ;sed in Ireland. The contest would . ' 'be dreadful; Vut the issue uncertain. million of the braveSt and hardiest men in the world Would soon trample their . oppressors in the dust. was•to n*ert thrs•evii, • that he called upon the 11 - Ouse to ads-;;t the amendment which he should Propose to them, which was to omit all the words after the word "that" for the purpose, of sob stituting the following : " the Claims of the Ca tholics of Great Britain and Ireland be taken into immediate consideration, and that the Houfe will •resolve itself info 'a Cortonittee of the Whole House Li that' purpose on ThvrsdayueXt." Mr. IV. POLE said, he was anxious to rise thus early in the debate to' state as shortly -as he-Cotild th4 - mOtives by which he was governed in the vote 'Which he should :five this night. He concurred `'Wit; ,his Right Illncturable Friend in lamenting the intelligence 'which had that day been received rlona Ireland, respecting the proceedings of the Roman Catholim • There was no Man who heard pith who could feel more deeply than he' did upon receiving that intelligence. CcmSidering the situ _ 4 tion which he recently held in the Government of Ireland, the resolutionslatelv passed unanimously in tile Aggregate Meeting of the Roinan Cathim ltcg of Dublin, must be particularly grating to his reelings : but he felt it to be his duty, in'deciding bP.on the question then before the House, t 6 ab-. stract everything . froin it of a private nature; .l lot to suffer the conduct of the persons Who com posed the meeting alluded to, however numerous ' o r.respectable, to influence his judgment, but to consider the question purely in a political point , of view, and to• adopt those measures which.ap reared best calculated to promote \ the advantage, and secure the happiness of the country at large. lit had never hitherto taken any part in the va l'ious discussions, which had occurred respecting the claims of the.Romin Catholics of Ireland,--ex cc. Pt Upon one occasion, when . , after haVing en tered into a defence of the measure adopted by the. Irish Government, he said a few words at the conclusion of hisspeech, upon the subject of those claims. The House t would do him 'the- justice to recollect that,.aipon the occasion to which he was referring, lie had stated, that, in his opinion, the door should_not be shut upon the Catholics, bat that considering the tone which they ad assumed, a nd the t e mper :ViTlife . h . they had manifested, he did 11.0 t think it would be -wise or prudent at that comply with T their demands. It was true that the conduct of the Roman Catholics was, - at the present moment, • .equally intent, Aerate but there was this difference between the circumstances of the two periods.; • at, the former period, the conduct which he had censured was that of a Committee' whase sentiments Were adopted by the Roman Catholic body; the resolu tions of which they this day had 'received thein telligence, were those of a respectable Aggregate Meeting, at which Lord Fingal was in the Chair ; they Were moved by Lord Killeen, and passed unanimonaly. But though he 'did not think the ' tone and temper of the Catholics were at all alter . ed, heWould state to the House his reasons ,for thinking that the circumstances of the country Nvere materially changed. When the question -was before debated in that House, they did not know the intentions of the Throne upon that most ftlportant subject : since that period those fitted-. • tions-had been made known by the person autliortsed , to form an Administration. He did nolWisIX to be disorderly, but 'it was now known to he the 'opinion of, time highest Authority in the Constitu-, ton, that the claims of the Romli Catholics ought to be taken into the most serious consideration.. Since the former period also, every statesman al baost in the country had declared his firm convic tion, that the Catholic question could not remain In its present state. The House also knew that at • the time to which he was referring, it was -the generally received opinion (it certainly was his), that the Protestants of England Were ,decidedly AV erse'to a compliance with the claims of the tholics, and that they would' raise their voice Against it 'as one man. That opinion had turned °O -t, as it appeared„ to be unfounded ; for the rotestants had not come forward to express any; "rAjectibn to the consideration of the subject. An ether circumstance that had a very considerable "effect upon his mind was this: when,the last dis cussion and division in that HOuse upon the Ca..' thOlic Question, was made knOwn in - Leland, a Very considerable alteration took place in the public Third in that country, and repeated . communica tions were made to him, in his official charaeter, expressive of that change of sentiment, and of a wish that his late lamented Friend would re-cotta sider_th e . question; With a view _to the . .opening of S9me negociation with the Roman Catholics aeon the subject; Alt these circurastances made 1 1111 0. st material Alteration in the state of the case. .: 11 had. always ':•neeli his, opinion, ~that it would T be desirable to grant the Roman Catholics every • Possible Aegren of civil liberty that was ,consis tent with the safety of our 'Establishments in Church and State ; bat the great difficulty teare" ap d to him to be, how the proper security for °so Establishments could be obtained. He was ! 1-I °St willing to grant the whole of their demands, *tit could he ,done with • safety 5,.. but no .lionest state smanbbring-.forwardthe question of C oncession .without .connecting it with some of-. eetual security for the• Church, and State ; and he I taa convinced that this was the opinion of every inAti in c th eabittlec ft itact titen truly' said by an Honourable and Learned Gentleman, oh a foriner'hight, that the Catholic Question .could• riot succeed unless it was .made a Cabinet question. if, said 11- 4 , "'it be not made a Cabinet ,measnrea it never will be a Legislative mega surea" in that opinion he perfectly concurred ; he did - not: think the question could be brought forward in 'any other way, lie confessed that after what had recently passed in Ireland, he felt some difficulty at first in coming forward to sup port the motion this night ; but, upon considera tion, it appeared to him, that the very nature of these proceedings skewed that no more time ought tote lost in serionsly taking op the question.' When the House saw the gross perversion of the - , facts, the astonishing blindness that' marked every part of the proCeedings , to which he was referring, it would be "convinced that 'un- - less Parliament proceeded to the serious con sideration of the subject, the most mischievous consequences Must' ensne. He was convinced that it was the opinion of all the reflecting people in both countries, that it was the duty of the Government (let who will constitute i 9 to apply theniselves - with every possible energy, to this Sub ject; to collect all the information in their power, to take a dispassionate • review of all the .laws which ha.dbeca passed against the Catholics, and . to state distinctly to Parliament which of them ought to be repealed. 'lf the - Government would adOA that course cif proceeding with 'a firm de termination to conciliate the' Catholics, as far as was consistent with the safety of our Establish ments—if, while they endeavoured to satisfy the Catholics, the Protestants were convinced that due attention was paid to their interests, and to the preservation of those guards and securities which' our ancestors had established, he was sure that this .important question might'be settled to the general satisfaction of all panties. Convinced, as he was, that this measure to be effectuallybrought forward, must be brought fOrward as a- Cabinet measure, he was the more disposed to agree with the motion of his Right lion. Friend, beeauSe, if the'resolution proposed should be agreed to by both Houses, and be laid before the Regent, it must of course be taken up seriously by Govern ment. He was anxious to take the earliest oppor tunity of saying these few words to state his rea sons for the vote which he should give. He would notoccUpy any more of the time. of the House, except merely to repeat what he had said upon a former occasion, that in his opinion a per son holding the situation he did, should not dis cuss questioos . of this kind. It was the duty of a person in such a 'situation to carry on the Go :vernment of the Country to enforce an implicit obedience to the laws, and to administer them im partially, but not to attempt to alter the Constitu tion. He would not now have taken a part in this discussion if he did not consider himself as in effect withdrawn.from the, situation-whi c h, he lately held; he merely continued in itfor, the pur pose of transacting the business that was in progress through the House. He had, therefore, now no duty to perform which should prevent him from de livering his opinion upon this question. He shOuld, however, at all times be ready to defend the prin- Ciples upon which he acted during the time he' had the honour of having *a . share in the Govern ment of Ireland, and also to justify, if. it should be necessary, every measure of the Duke of Rich- Mond's GoVernMent, since that Noble Person had been Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. The' senti ments which he had now' delivered, as 'he no longer considered himself as an official man, could not in any way whatever commit that Noble Duke: He concluded by declaring that he should Tote for the motions Mr. RYDER would have been more induced to have concurred in the motion, had not the .former discussions pn the subject "shewn the almost nulia mited nature of the Catholic demands. No one ,could disguise from himself that no Concession would. lead. to conciliation, unless' tfiere was conferred on the Catholic a legislative right to an equal share of- political , power with his Protestant 'fellow-subject.' 'He was at a.' lOss to discover how this 'could be done Con sistently with " the stability of the Protestant establishment, and the general concord and satis • faction of all classes of his Majesty's subject.," *had no such hope. He therefore would not hold out any such hope. - The tune might come 'when the Catholics had 'emancipated -theinselVes from foreign Spiritual bondS, that the claims might be conceded' tO them with safety. Bid as long as the Pope maintained his direct and unbiassed in fluenCe over the Catholic Bishops, .and theßishopa over the Priesthotid, and the Priesthood over the Laity, he was convinced that concession could not be made without danger to the Protestant es tablishmentof Ireland, and even to' that of the whole Empire. The Right Hon. Gentleman's re solution would tend not to harMonize, but to add materials to religious animosity. He for one .should therefore oppose it. Ikra.X, FITZGERALD was willing to accede 'to the Amendment of the gallant General, or if the Howe thought -that too much, to the original mo • flan. He trusted that there was a general ac quiescence in the principle of concession. But adverting to some of the arguments urged by . the _Right Hon. Gentleman who had just spoken, he denied the great influence attributed to the Pope over the Priesthood, 'and to the Priesthood over the People. In any securities which might be deemed necessary, he deprecated too officious an interference by an hostile religionawith the most ancient religion- of Earope. 'He deprecated the further postponement as dangerous, and even threatening separation, and wished that 'the concessions might proceed from an amicable Ministry; 'instead of coming from what must be considered. by - the Catholics -a . suspici ous quarter. With • respect to the Resolu tions of the aggregate meeting of the Catho lics, as far they related' to: the late prosecu tions; and to the 'obstacles thrown in the way of the right of petitioning, he went the full _length of their expressions. He agreed also, that they' were right. - in proffering. no securities ; the ldw ,was the security to he looked to. s The Catholics demanded politiCal freedom, -and they demanded it in a manly tone, oe they would not deserve it. He rejoieth in this frank communication. He maintained, that though the Catholics were, con nected with the Pope,' he had uo influence in t2Kiti6tat ontettis,.Mia that tbt noulinatl6n of, aii their Bishops in Ireland was an internal no MI . FULLER snid a that no man he hoped would, suspect him of a hOstile feeling toward's any re-' ligion hi which any man thought that he served Go' better titan be did him Self; but there might he reasons for keeping down the tenets of one religion, when they wanted More thaii• all the other 'dissenting sects. The title .deeds of his etc were the same-as the title ; deeds of the Con-i stiti&on—and he was sure no generous Irishman would ask him. to'giVe Up his title deeds, without proper securities against their abuse. He was glad thut the question was put off. No man tould admire the Irish more than he did : they were a manly, fine, generous race; the agreed perfectly in his sentiments, for they loved "women and wine as much' as he did.—(Lnud'burits of laughter)—• Their religious tenets, however, prevented them from a greater share of freedom ; some of those tenets credibility could- hardly : swallow, - an& he thdught he was right in asking them; as they be- . lieved so much already, that they. would not be lieve much more. "He was glad the proposition was to be put olf, as he hoped they Would be able to find intermediate means. Every man Who wished Well to the British empire, must be anxioas to see its religious feelings and political strength united ; and if that could, be done, and this ques tion of Cativilic Emancipation carried with per feet security to Church and State, no man would be happier to grant it tkan he would. Sir J. gewrori declared he could not see the necessity of calling tor securities. 'What was ne cessary to the protection of Church and State was in the hands of Parliament, and Was equally bind ing upon all Members of the commuoity. way to have securities was to take away' the fire - - sent restrictions. When they repealed the' test laws against the Dissenters in 1784, the) asked fur no securities, and he would ask had they found that the church establishment was weakened by such. concessions He rejoiced in the feeling ma nifested by the House towards 'the infamous pub:. ' lication qubted by the Right Hon. MOver, and was of opinion, that 'a' more fatal inevainre could not be,adopted than the cry of No Popeey." They might depend that in time it would be -an-- swered by a cry in lrelainl, of " NO Union," by a cry of,,`! Separation." ‘• Mr. Via RRNATT thought_ that nothing would tend more to preyent the zealous --Cooperation and Confidence of the Spaniard's, than the pre text which we afforded to the enemy to represent us as persecutors "Of the. Catholics After having conceded when the best interests of the country called opon them to make -a stand, be hoped they would not think of Making a stand in a point which the best interests of the country called upon them to abandon. Mr. MaiRTiN . said - , he should 'have approved more - of a resolution, -pledging the House to the consideration of the question, with a view to granting the prayer of the petition. He should vote for going into the consideration of the ques tion as 'soon as possible. • - , Mr. MATTHEW MONTAGUE regretted the absence of that powerful voice which - was accustomed to address them with such force and elOquence on this subject. His reason for t 'it agreeing in the; of the Right .nirahle Gentleman on the floor, was a conviction that the measure he , would propose would not answer the purposes of conciliation. The Catholics had now declared, than nothing but unconditional emancipatkn would content them. He would ask the House, whether,after granting this measure, they must not proceed to equalise all rights—Whether they must not repeal the Test Acts must appear, fiial' the,eheeriog of,. the Gentleien theinselYes that . they; were about to' pass it Upon tire' broad basis of right, ,fre did not _only deplore the: loss of the talents ahis late Right HonourableFriend, but the yigo'rOUsSPiKf. and determination which mark ed his dia t l-4(4o'i' and regretted there had .been • string of . COACCSSIOTIS from the present Ministers. , He believed;''that concession in the present'case would lead to a demand for equalization of property, ;md that the sane :coarse as Was adopted . in - France, iyoUla,follow here, -if the principle of in novation was once admitted: He - ;should vote acrainst the motion. - Mr. DARNEL stated, that there were but three points in which the Pope exercised any power . in Ireland : that of marriage, that of appeals in cases of dispute between - the Catholic Clergy, and that of appointing Bishops, all of which had fallen greatly into dis'use. If any evil arose frOm the unconditional grant, Parliament might take the measures which were necessary, and be was sure that' if Catholics were admitted into ParliaMent, those who were likely to be returned would be the first to join in such measures. Mr. WILBRAIIAra BOOTLE declared his intention to vote for the Motion of his Riglit Hon. Friend, but would not pledge himself to any ,further step. He hoped that something would be done to re lieve that estimable class of men the trio,lish Ca tholids. Sir JOHN NICHOLL said, he should Join the Ri t ,;ht Hon. Gentleman on the ildor (Mr. Secre tary Ryder) in giving his sincere: and decided opinion on this subject. He would allow, that . if political power could be granted to the Catho lics, with safety to the Constitution,. it ought to be granted ; but the safety of that Constitution was 'of paramount importance, and the Muse could , not with propriety advance a single step without insuring that safety. In what manner, he would ask, could the Resolu , tion be necessary ? Could not an individual compel the House ,at any time to consider the questiOn. After, debating it year after year, was it , now necessary to pledge theuiselves to its consideration? The Resolution could la . filpt be only necessary with this view, to delude the House with a pledge to ulterior' meaSures. In all the discussions which had already taken place, it t - ver was disclosed what the securities should be that would acCompany the concessions. Those Gen tlemen who said that we ought to concede with out limitation, 'spoke a plain language, but a lan guage that might lead to a Catholic establishment in Ireland, and even to a Catholic Monarch on the throne, wrapping up the matter in such mystery, rendered him suspicious until they were disclosed. The Right 'Hon. Gentleman himself did not seem to -think they wore likely to be satisfactory,; they would Operate - its aasurprise to both parties. Af ter the last resolutions of the Catholics, it was impos sible to expect that this would lead to concili:;tivn. If this was no longer to be a Government ques-' tion, the more was it for individuals to exercise • care ahtd. caution. Was•it fair towards the CA:11o. lies themselves to excite hopes in them which . must be disappointed ? If they would satisfy Par liament that concessions could be made with Safe- it was calumny to the House to say that they were unwilling to extend it. He felt it his duty to negative the motion. The Cr of the EXCHEQUER declared his 'intention to vote for the resolution of the , Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning) in the same. sense in which his Hon. Friend had done, without pledging himself to any future measure. Something, •he hoped, knight be done, .but What it would be he could not now say. As to the charge of vatillation against the Government, he knew of -no: other . measures that were given up than the resolution reSpecting the barracks, the allowance to the Private Secretary of his ltoyal Highness the Prince Regent; and the important , question of the Orders in Council. On this sub ject of the Orders in . Council, it should he recollect ed that the late lamented Chancellor of the t'ache quer had made large concessions. - There was no other ground of charge against thepresent Govern mant, than they had shewn a dispoSition to act up to their own judgmein. On the question he- - fore. them he should say, that though he sup ported the Resolution, he did not do so upon the grounds or arguments adnaoced by the IT t otht Honourable Gentleman.' The Right Honotiroble Gehtleman seemed to think there was no middle course e at present there was not; but. time was the great innovator ; it prodheed changes every day, and was leading the Catholics towards the full aceomplishment of their wishes; which no thing could impede so much as any violence on their part. Before any chanse of statem could be success fully Attempted, they ought to observe the cheinges which had taken place in the Catholic Church it self, and the destruction that hadtspread as well over the ecclesiastical as the political state of Europe. All they knew of the Pope was, he was the. first Bishop of the French Empire, and there could be little doubt that the successor of the Pope wosild be the mere nominee of Bonaparte. There were - internal changes • in the body of .trio CathOlies of ireland, which led to hopes Of a fa v6thrable .issue : they were daily advancing in knOwledge and inquiry, and in proportion as they adopted' the Bible for their role of conduct, di the prospect of conciliation appear. Mr.7.l3aNies dwelt at some length on the change . which had lately taken place in the opiniona_of both Houses of Parliament on the subject. He • should go into the Consideration of it, he hoped, without prajodice. ' pie should insist upon ample securities, seenrities,as full as any that were vested in any other Crowiro the most ample that 'history could furnish, were ;those. which he ex pected; and would exact. He always thought, and he-thooght, still,' that the unfortunate mea s Ore of the Union threw a great bar in` the way of farther concessions fo the Catholics. lie hoped, hOwever, that the difficulties thence arising would not prove insuperable. One of the chief obstacles to the Measure proposed was (unfortu nately) removed; and in another Sesions, know ing-the sentiments of their constituents on the sub-: , ject, it might be hoped they would be able to (mote to. smile satisfactory and practical conclusions If If his night Hon. Friend; or any. other Hon. Mem ber could brihg forward a plan t : embracing the three objects S: hick he had stated himself to have in View, it would meet with his (Mt. B.'s) support. Mr*. GaATTAN observed, that the Changes e.hAa took place in human affairs were such, that that which was impossible at one tLine, was not only possible, but necessary,aloanoer. if toe opi nions of those Who formed the Governmeot were changed, he could easily conceive that such chanoe might be justified by circumstances, •and :he would not call the present a victory gained over than; to hinit it appeared,, that they had gained a vie tory over themselves. He objected tot he Anienda meet, as, after what had occurred in the course of the Session, it could not be expected that the House would be disposed to go into a •Corninittee on the subject at present. This Was a motion of concord, to conciliate the Catholics without pitt. , , Ling the ProtestantChOreh in danger, and passing the resolution underacousideraton, they voted the English and Irish to be one people,. and as such it ought tOtbe considered by the people of both , :countries. The question came forward now un der'Circhmstances differing considerably froth those under which it Was 'brought forward before. The discussions which had taken place on the subject, the situation of'the Executive, the great number 'which had appeared in its. favour on the last dis cushion, though it - was still a minority, was such as to evince.a dispositioh on the part of England, to shake hatids with Irelmid. He' room - mended mutual conciliation on the part of Gisvernment and o'n the part. of Catholics, in exacting' se curities; °tithe one hand; and inseekingeonces siona on the other. He had it in contemplation, in the neat Sessions of Parliament, to bring in a. Bill *on the subject, or to move - for a ComMittee, but he was convinced that the measure vehold be.. mucal? better, in the ands of Govermirent. If they , would bring it forward, he would be happy to be able to second the measure they might propose, . and willing to approve. ' • Lord CASTLFREAGH complimented the fa.st Speaker oil his taleirls and exertittns, and still more on the tone of that speech which they had joit : heard. It was for_ them that night to dis charge their - duty,. by stating the grounds upon which they voted, that they might hereafter come - to-the diS'eutsion of the subject With as little mis s . undetstandiog on any part of it as possible: For himself he had to, say, that if he were not that night to concurin the motion of the Right Haus Gentleman, his conduct would work an. abandon- - ment of thane principles which he had altrays avowed,'cad which had unit - bra* regulated his conduct. Feeling as he always had, thenecessity of endeavouring to admit the Catholics into : the 'Constitution, when the difficulties which bad op posed" that' niesso..e were lessened or • rennived, when the temper of the CatholieS, and the cir s chmstances of the times Would, 'in hia opinion, justify is being attempted to be done, if no one. elsehad‘ taken u the subject; he hiniself would