The Sun. — London, England, 1837-11-28 00:00:00

*ants of Parliamentary law ; there was a very great difference between the common law and the lea non scripta of Parlia ment. According to the law of Parliament the judges ought not to be called on to decide any question of Parliamentary law,_ nor according to an old dictum of their own ought t h ey to be. Fur instance, as regarded the right of Peers to vote : that was a question that ought not to be put to the judges "fur their decision, and if it were they ought to refuse to answeWit. But he took the preliminary objection to their proceeding further with this Bill they had two plans before them, .ene -being incompatible with the other, and before they decided on endeavouring to render either perfect, let them see and judge of both.—( )Aear, hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL said the - Hon. Gentleman who bad just sat down had made a mistake when he said there were two Bills before the House: there was but one. It was true he got leave . of the House to bring in another, hut he would state the course that he bad intended to pursue. He proposed to put his Bill upon the table of the House, and to have it printed by the commencement of the recess, so as to be in the hands of Honourable Members during that recess. He did not mean to proceed further with it till it had passed through a Committee, and then he would decide whether he would press it on the House or net. He not , saw that he interrupted the present Bill by hero duchies his ateeill, and having satisfied himself as to that; he should move that the order for leave to him to bring in his Bill be discharged.—(Hear, hear.) Let them discuss the Bill before them on its own merits, and not with refereece to any other.—( Hear, hear.) As tl:e pi ieciple of this Bill, and not its details, was under their consideration, tie begged to submit to the House whether it was not - necessary that something should be done. When the Hosourable Gentl• man oppo site told them on his word and honour he .did not be lieve that the public were so dissatisfied with the Committees of that House—he must admit, though, that the Honour able Gentleman did not go quite to that extent; that war a little too far—(Hear, hear, hear,)—and he had no wish to misrepresent him—when, however, the Ilonourable Gen tleman declared on his word of honour that he did not be lieve the country entertained so bad an opinion of the House as had been stated, he fully believed that such was the be lief which the Honourable Gentleman entertained ; but he must also express it as his opinion, that the public were greatly dissatisfied with the decision of the Election Corn mittees•of the House.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It was rather an unhappy - and unfortunate circumstance that they must ad mit that When a petition was sent down to them for trial there was immediately a very active canvass on each aide., (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") It was true that when men asked him to attend the Ballot they did not say to him, " Pray go down to the House of Commons, ready to perjure yourself on the committee." Oh, no ; but what they said was, " Pray go down to the House, that you may prevent the Tories from pressing themselves on the Committee."—( Great laughter, and cries of " Hear.") And did not they (the Opposition) say that on their. side ?—(Hear, and a laugh.) When the whipper-in went to them and pressed them to come down, did he say, " Come down, that you may be on the Committee, and, no matter what the evidence, decide against the indivi dual petitioned against, because he belon g s to the opposite party ?" No such thing. But wha t he did say was," Go down, or the Reformers or Radicals will decide everything ; they will not care for their oaths ; they will perjure them selves and set at nought every moral obligation, in order to cause a decision in favour of their party." The truth was, they accused each other, and he believed that the public ac cused thorn both.—( Cheers.) It was notorious that when a Committee were to be ballottcd for each side was anxious to get upon the Committee a majority of individuals belonging to their party. Did they not know that] it was com monly said by one side or the other, when the par ties went from the bar, " They have no chance—we have beaten them—we have settled them now—there . are seven to four; or there are six to five ; they will appoint their Chairman, their Chairman has a double vote—they have not the least chance."—( Laughter.) Counsel had 'predicted thus, and their predictions had been verified by the event. Now, was this creditable to the House ?—(Cheers.) They might delude themselves by the speeches they made there on the subject, but the public knew what the fact was, and the public condemned them all. In the case of Carlow alone there had been three different decisions by three different Committees on the question of opening the register. The first settled that the register should not be opened ; eleven Hon. Members on their oaths decided that. Eleven non. Members, on another Committee, decided 'On their oaths that the same register should be opened. It was thought now that the possible differences between the Committees were ex hausted ; but it was not set—(A laugh)—.there was a third Committee, and they decided on their oaths that the register should be opened partially ; they decided that whenever it could be shown that an objection was taken below at the time of the registry, it might be opened so far. What was the con sequence ? The Reformers had been unwilling to object to the first registry, from a wish to have the registration as gene ral as possible ; and thus not having objected to the first re gistry, the Tories had a great and decided advantage, forthey were able to strike off whom they pleased, and the Opposition party wero able to strike off—none. In this instance, there were two directly opposing decisions, and one that was worse than either of the two. Now, he put it to the House, would they have legal assistance or not ? The Honourable and Learned Gentlemen referred to the case of O'Dwyer, in which the Committee decided against the opinion of Lord Redesdale. He proceeded to say that he cast no imputations on the House ; but ought they to be subject to such imputa tions from any quarter ? There had been no Committee of the kind of which he was speaking appointed in that House ; but he would not conceal from them that he should not have expected justice from an Election Committee of the last Par liament. Two seats had • been decided against by Commit tees of the last Parii,onent en the presumption that a min owed a tax because he was liable to it. el A.vote was objected 'to on the ground that the tax had not been paid ; the ob jectors were not, able td show that the man was in arrear. The books were produced, and his name were not on them ; but because he resided in the street it was presumed that the tax was not paid. This was a monstrous case, but lie could tell the House it was that decision which unseated him. He, then, asked them again, would they have no legal assistance ? Was that sucha state of things as ought to be allowed to con tinue? (Hear, hear.) To such an extent was the objection able system carried that he had heard Honourable Gentlemen reproached for having given certain votes in Committees of which they were members. What, then, was public opinion upon thesubject? He was ready to tell them. He should reed for them *passage from a public newspaper—he meant to read it as part of his speech. The passage lie referred to was written in allusion to the plaw of the Hon. Member for Liskeard ; it expressed the conviction of the writer as to what the effect of the Bill would be. The writer said, " Thus this alteration would not put an end to what the writer of the article in the Law Mmga. zine tenderly cads 'trifling with oaths.' " Did the llnuse mark the expression "trifling with oaths ?"—( Hear, hear.) Ile had heard that House before the Reform Bill became law called " the noblest assembly of freemen in the world." He hoped the House had still sore high feeling left ; and yet did they mark what a law-writer—what one who it was sup posed by hie profession happened to know something of the, working of their Committees—'enderly named "trifling with oaths ?"—( Hear, hear.) Was there a man amongst them who would trifle with his oath ? Was there a men amongst them who would not say it was false that he trifled with his oath ? The writer said, " The Law Magazine tenderly calls trifling. with oaths,' but which, in our te.inion, amounts to a much higher crime. We. alluded cursorily the other day to this part of ties subject, and to the different condition of judges arid witnesses, although each under the obligation of an oath. The members of a Committee have often sent witnesses to Newgate for giving false evidence, while they themselves, by their decision, have shown that they were utterly regardlcsi of their own oaths, and careless whether the evidence were false or true." Thu -was the lenguage .of the Morming Chroi iele with regard to the decisions of their Cem snittees,and to the regard paid by them to their oaths.—( Hear.) It proceeded to say„" With regard to the assessors, Who, by Mr. C. Buller's Bill, are to preside, and to determine points of law without the power of voting, we by no means think, if they could be found and appointed, that the result would cor respond with the expectations of the framer of the measure. The opinion of the assessor, however well founded, would have but little weight with men who had made up their minds to forswear themselves from party motives; and we cannot help believing that the rights/A' petitioners and respondents (if we may so call them) would be even safer in the hands of men bound by their honour to determine fairly and impartially, than bound by their oaths At ad events, it is quite clear that oaths have been and arc of no avail. To violate honour might have a serious effect upon gentlemen in their intercourse with society; hut we see plainly, that the avowed breach of a solemn oath on an Election Cenimittee entails no inconvenience or disgrace." That was the language of the Morning Chronicle of the 3d of • November.— ( Cheers from the MeMbers of the Opposition benches ) They cheered those opinions ! Were they satisfied a ith the truth of what the Morning Chronicle said of them ?—( Cheers from Members on tire Mini,:terial benches.) They cheered a party paper. because it publicly accused them of %iolating their oaths ! They cheered that I It' such were their carelessness and such the'r indifference with respect to the imputation—if it . was only because it was said in a party paper that they were regardless of it, then he saint, God help those alto had to come before them for a decision.—( Cheers from Ministerial Members.) Did they not remember that when a ilea sniper asserted this. itevas expected that its resders would believe the assertion? But did not lion. Gentlemen Opposite see what their own newspapers stated with r, gard to them? lied he not reed in the Standard a demand upon the hieeriew s o f i ts ewe pa r ty t o b e dili g ent in attending upon the baliots ter Glee ion petitisres, as " :he old Whigs never at tended ?" What was expected from this ? Did it not "argue a - coregool conclusion equally with the Morning Chronicle?— ( Lisa - , hear.) It had conic to this, that thevwlin, it was to be eepected, 'ware ta set at . : eeample of high' moralise to the country--they vole were to be regarded as men of the highest to li eur, were now so lost to feeling as to be re- gardlese. of theeueeervance of the most solemn ohlieation ( Hear, hear.) The Hoeee was quite aware that at - this mo. went the striking of a Memboe from one side or the other eves an object of the greatest importance. The fate. of Ens land, of one-third of the empire—the fate of :7elan . l, and hoW it was to be pvere ed„the appeintment t o th e higheet offices in the State, all depended upon the majority in that House.— (Hear, hear.) This Bill d id not, in his o pinion , go far enough; but it gave them at least one protection, filet of a single impartial person--it also gave them publicity, which was another security at least. There was no man, be was sure, ram heard him who was not convinced that a worse species tri:sunal to decide rights than their Election Committees there eeut e l not be.--( Hear, hear.) Sir ,EDWARD S UG D E N was surprised at the course Pursued by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. He bad giver? credit to that Hon. and Learned Member at taus moment that ;re had learned that it was his intention to have ntroduced a BiliPf which 11 , .; had given notice. Not only had the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, altered the...title of.his Bill, so that it might-proceed with the Bill of the Hon. Member fdr . Liskeard, but in so doing the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had declared his opinion that the propoSition of the Hon. Member for Liskeard could not lalt adopted._- ( Hear.) He understood the Hon. and Learned Member fOr Dublin to exoress as strongly against tlto Bill of the Hen. Member for Liskeard, perhaps not in uncou: teous terms, but .still as strongly, as ane Member could speak against the proposition f another. —( Hear.): Now, however, the same Hon. and Learned Member said—let this Bill go through CommitteJ, and- then he would b..ing in his own Bill. After the principle of the present Bill had received the sanction of the House, and' after they had gorse into Committee upon it, the House could not be called upon to adopt a Bill different from it in principle, and - one especially that was directly . opilosed to the preseet measure. Both Bills had the same object, th .t of ameliorating the present mode of trials in controverted elec tions. The Hon. and Learned Gentlernan'asstimed that his ( Sir E. Sugdee's) side of the House wished to give an unge nerous opposition to that improvement. He believed, on the contrary; that the feeling upon his side of the Horse was to make, by the best and most proper means, that tribun 11 to r,tand well with the country. He had hard with feelings of the most unmixed horror that, instead of the decisions' of the Members of the Legislature being influenced by fair and ho nourable feelings, epithets were applied to them of a charac ter which, if they were deservedly applied. he should feel the deepest pain and degradation in having entered into . the !louse. With respect to this point. the Hon.. and Learned MeMber for Dublin, he must say, had done that side of the HMISe as great injustice as man possibly could be guilty of. That lion. and Learned Member had read a most offensive paragraph— ( Hear, fern the Opposition Members)—a most libellous pare gragh--( Hear, from the Opposition Members)—which had ap peared in a daily print, and which was supposed to be in the con fidence and the interests of her Majest>'s Ministers. In that libel, which the Hon. and Learned Member read as part of his speech—in that libellous matter, in which all sides cf the house were disgraced—the Hon. and Learned Member might have known, when it' was read, what was signified by the cheers of his (Sir E. Sngdcn's) friends around him. Did not the Hon. and Learned Member know what that cheer meant ? It expresircl as Olin as language their disgust.—(Cheers from the Opposi,ion. Members.) They cheered in the face of that House and the country, because they felt that they were not open to that libel.—( Cries of " Oh, oh, oh," and cheers.) That was what the cheer meant.—( Cries of " Oh, oh, oh.") What 1 did they on the other side cheer a statement which wz s a libel on their honour, and which they must feel levelled them with the dust ? Did they cheer or approve of that ? Upon hi; side of the House t ie, disclaimed such an imputation. He then proceeded to obtei Ire that he did not oppose the second reading of the Bill ; he only required it to be postponed. The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin objected to this Bill as it was the same, to all intents and purposes as the former Bill. Instead of eleven Members this Bill proposed five ; but would five be more bound by their oaths and honour than eleven, or would there be Mo-e safety in the smaller than the larger number ? Then, with respect to the appointment of Assessors—three were to be named by the Speaker. The salary was 2,0001. a year, and for this there would not be a barrister of seven years' standing but of practice who would not be a candidate. The appointment, then, would be the subject of intrigue. They knew in the chair the Speaker was of no politics, but out of the chair he was an English gentle man, and belonged to his party. Might not party feeling, then, enter into the nomination, and might not the House de bate whether they would appoint John, Thomas, or William, named by the Speaker? And if they were rejected, the House would have to nominate three more. The nomination was to take place every session. In that case would a gentle man in practice abandon it to become an assessor, when the next year he might lose his situation of assessor, and his prac tice be also gone from him? He felt bound to support the motion of the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire. Mr. G. F. YOUNG concurred in the objections stated by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin respecting the character of the tribunals before which controverted elec tions were to be tried. He wished, however, in doing so, to refer to a statement made by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman respecting a Committee to which he bad belonged. That Committee was presumed to have given an opinion adverse to the franchise, by assuming that a voter had not paid his rates, his name not appearing in the rate-book, and he living in the street that had been rated, and that in consequence of such vote, the Honourable and Learned Mem ber had lost his election. That was the first opportunity he had of referring face to face to the statements of the Honoura ble and Learned Member who had frequently abused him in his absence, and he now declared that Honourable Member, he would not say dared not—because he had seen how much he dared—( Order, order l) The SPEAKER' called the Honourable Member to order. Mr. G. F. YOUNG continued by saying, that the Ho nourable and Learned Gentleman had cast an imputation upon him from which he should not condescend to vindicate himself; he did so only on the part of the Committee ; and he declar ed on the part of that Committee, that never was there a Committee more free from party bias than the very Commit tee to which the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had referred. Mr. O'CONNELL explained. It was not upon the deci sion of one vote, but of a class of voters, he had been unseated by the Committee be bad referred to. Lord JOHN RUSSELL owned that there appeared to him to be grounds favourable to the second reading of this Bill.—( Hear.) It was the result of the labours of a Committee that had given great attention to the eubject; and he observed in the records of the House, as to the labours of that Committee, that on the subjects submitted to them, on which it was to be supposed there had been a great deal of a•gument, there had been riot less than twenty-one divisions in the Committee. These had all taken place upon various points, and each of them the most impor tant as connected with the principles of the Bill. He bad read over the names of the Gentlemen who generally appeared upon the one side and upon the other, and to show the House the mariner in which these divisions generally took place, he should take the division upon the question - for the nomination of the assessors during good behaviour. The names upon the one side were Mr. Hardy and Mr. Pemberton ' • and upon the ether Mr. C. NV,Wpn, Mr. Strutt,SirThomasFremantle,Mr. Grote, Mr. -.Villiers, and Lord George Somerset. These divi sions were not to be courted by differ cot political parties; but persons of' the same political parties were to be found Toting against each other. This he thought was, looking to the names of the persons, a proof that they might have been safely entrusted with the preparing of what was a difficult measure.— ( Hear.) They had, then, the recommendation of a Select Committee for this Bill ; and they were also aware that in the last Parliament it had been read a second time without a divi sion. He said, then, that these were peculiarly favourable grounds for their granting a second reading, arid so far sanc tioning the principle of the Bill.—(Hear. ) But then the Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Gentleman who followed him objected, in the first place, that the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin had obtained leave to bring in a Bill of a different character, and which tended to the same object ; and that Bill they insisted ought to be printed before they as sented to the principle of this Bill. The Noble Lord, he thought, placed too much reliance upon the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin—(Laughter)—and upon his intention of proceed ing with a Bill which he had not yet printed. That reliance, indeed, was followed up by a declaration from the Noble Lord that he had rather not have such a Bill at all. The whole ar gument, then, which wss thus built upon sank to the ground. If they were to have two Bills founded upon different prin ciples, and if it wereintended to proceed with both, then there alight be an adjournment for a few drys. But he did not see why they could a Mr propriety postpone the Bill to the I 2fla of February ; although it might be proper to delay it for a few day!. The Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin said that he was not prepared with his Bill, and that he would not he prepared with it for some time. Under such circumstances, then, he considered it but fair to a Bill which had received the sanction of a Committee, and which was also sanctioned by a former House of Commons, and in which the only object a,nd the only question was, wht taper they would sanction a Bill having for its principle the amend ment of their Electi, it Committees—it was under such cir temstances, he repeated, but lair to allow such a Bill to pre eeed to a second reading. His opinion upon the whole was, that the best course fur the House to adopt was not to change the nature of the tribunsl; but he did think that late decisions upon controverted elections had given so much dissatisfaction that it was not thought that fair decisions had been given. He had not attended generally for the last year or two to thg lots upon Election Committees, bet . it happened, he was told, that upon some occasions, when two or' three Members' names were read from the ballot list, that a cheer was givet from that side of the House on which the Members usually se. Was not this declaring tint the persons who ao cheered regarded those persons to be choir-se, not as impartial judges hear)—but a.s a partisan jury? He had been asked last year to adopt a. irlt re-pect to these elections the same course which was followed upon party questions, that of send ing out notices. Ile declined doing so, as he said it was an improper pactic , . But then the argument used to him was that ei which the lloneurable and .Learned Member for Dub lin had referred, "that the other side of the House did the same." He did not know that this was the practice on the other side, he did not know it to be the practice. ul.on him own. But when there was so much jealousy about the names of adverse parties being on a Committee, it eves a sufficient proof that the decisions of the Committees would be party decisions.—( Hear.) A part, a great part of this feeling had arisen from the uncertainty, but more especially from the uncertainty respecting t h e right of -voting in In.- bur. This had ben the case with two cr three Election Committees, and with the Longford Committee in particular, where, he believed, this was the chief point in dispute. Now, without the imputation of intent:onal p. rjury to any side, where there was a question of intricate law. and upon which some of the I.:sh judges differed front other Irish judges, al:d where 1 there w. re other questions not legal but intricate, party would influence the decisions upon them. They had now to see whether the Bill of the Hon. and Learned Member for Liskeard remedied the evils of which they complained. He thought it was bad to have a great number of Members on such a Committee. The Right Hon, Gentleman who had introduced the last Bill upon this subject, tire 9th Geo. IV., had, instead of 41, reduced the number to be selected to 33 names. Presiotse to that the constant custom was, when a great number of names eveee :;ruck off by each party—he did not know , tht the piactice still continued,,lut then it was called , hiploskinz the brains out of a Committee.”---(l,a4gh!er. ) It was the. very %:45 , to spoil the tribunal which they wished to have named, lie had. rather have a Committee chosen by that Houso, and composol of lirop6r persons, than that each party should have the power of striking OE names, Ha had rather himse:f, if he had to defend his seat, have a person of the opposite side of politics who knew all the questions that could be discussed before him, than a person ctf bis own yi4po 9 was ignorant of them. He was crite sure that what. wee called . perjury depended not le such cases upon the corruption hut- the ignorance of the party. With respect to another point, namely, the appointment of assessors to attend Committees, be thought that this likee wise would tend to make Committees act with greater jus tice, and w;th more delioeration ; but what he looked to above all in this Bill, and vihrtt he thought would tend to produce good effects both-with respect to the Election Corn niitteea and the legislation .on the subject wai, that there should_ be a eerta.'n number of persons of fit who should form a r e7marint judicial body, ready to gee their opinion, - and the substance of their deliberations, ea-to:- 4.110 r to the Election Committees, or to the House of Com e:rens, -or whether in the course of registration noon aay election which should call for it. But he did net at present,. certainly, and without much farther considertei and v ithout seeing that the evils which the present system produced were wthout any other remedy, that that • House should lose or part with the power of deciding these questions by Members chosen from amongst themselves- But he thought that the great evil which affected those who had seats in that House which were celled in .question, and wiliest) affected every voter who came before the revising bar rister, and which, indeed, affected the whole couutry, was the uncertainty that prevailed . at present.—( Hear.) Lot allow all disputes arising out of elections to go into a c c o ou l rt of law, and very properly, as he thought; because the judges who had to decide upon all questions relative to the properties and lives of her Majesty's subjects were now supposed to be ac tuated by no political bias; but if they refer to the constituted tribunal of the judges those questions of a political nature, whatever their decisions may be, they would be liable to im putations from one side or the other.—( Hear, hear.) As, then, they could not part with the power themselves and give it to the judicial tribunals already constituted, the next thing that occurred to him as most likely to improlie the present tribunals was, that there should be a certain number of men, of legal knowledge and judicial habits, who should form a permanent body to decide such questions as should come before them. The Noble Lord opposite (Lard Stanley) said that there ought to be a Committee of the House of Commons appointed to declare what the law was upon these questions. Now he (Lord • Jobn Russell) must say that he should not entertain much hope from such a Com mittee—( Hear, la ar)—because, if Committees now decided with a certain bias with respect to what the law was a'. present, he was quite sure that a Committee would decide with a bias when it hid to interpret what the law should be in future.— ( Hear, hear.) ,They hadfound this already with respect to the Registration Bills, and therefore he thought that where a doubtful point arose, and a Committee had to clear that doubt, the Members would. say to themselves, " As_we have to clear this doubt in future; let us not proceed according to our notions of what the practice should be, but let the doubt be cleared in a manner favourable to our own party." That would also be the opinion of the other party, and they would therefore have the same difficulty in passing a Bill through the House which should obtain the assent of 'either party, as they had now. Therefore, upon the whole, be thought that there was no suffi cient, reason for not agreeing to the second reading of the 8i11..5-(Cheers.) Sir R. PEEL said that the question was not whether they would consent to any improvement of the present system by which Election Committees were constituted ; the question was cot whether they would consent to the principle of this Bill ; but the simple question was, whether on that day the House of Commons was sufficiently prepared, by mature de liberation on the subject, to affirm the important principle in volved in the, Bill. That House of Commons contained 150 new Members, the attention of not one of whom had been pro bably directed to the question now before them. The Bill was only printed on Saturday, and it was, he believed, delivered to many Members that very day ; so that there could have been no opportunity - of perusing it till the very next day; and he should like to know how many Members present had read the Bill upon which they were then called upon to decide ? He would not place much dependence upon the fact whether they had read the Bill or- not, because the Bill itself was so full of blunders, that if they had read it, it would afford no assistance.—( Hear, hear, and . a laugh.) What could be inferred from the following passage :—" If it shall be found that there are not ono hundred Members present, or that the number of thirty-three Meinbers, not set aside or excused, cannot be completed, it shall and may be lawful for the House, if it think fit, to direct that the said order shall be adjourned for any number of days." Now what had the House to do with these thirty-three Members ?—( Mr. C. Buller : " That is a blunder I"—A laugh.) Here, then, was a Bill printed on Saturday, delivered on Monday, which was per fectly unintelligible on account of the great hurry with which it was printed, which was admitted to be unintelligible by its mover, Mr. C. Buller, as far as the number thirty-three is concerned. Let it be so ; but under these circumstances they were called upon to affirm the principle of the Bill —( Hear, hear. )- Whatever they might do in this respect let it be done after mature deliberation.—( Hear, hear.) But the real ques tion—a question which had not been referred to—was this, did they mean to apply the new tribunal to existing Election Peti tions ?—( Loud cheers from the Opposition.) This was the real question which was involved in this measure.—( Cheers from the Opposition, re-echoed from the Ministerial Benches.) He found the following sentence introduced into the face of the Bill, and he should like to know whether it was another blunder ? It was this :5e..." And be it en acted that this Act shall commence and take effect from and after the last day of the present Session of Parliament." Her© was a eistinet manifestation of the intention of the author of the Bill that the Bill should not take effect until aft, r the present Election Committees should be dis posed of.—( Cheers.) If this were the case, where was the necessity of such precipitation ?—( Loud cheers from the Op position.) If it were really intended that all existing Elec tion Committees should be appointed under the existing laws, unless for some extraordinary and special contingency, in re spect of which the Noble Lord opposite ( Lord J. Russell) had reserved himself—( A laugh)—if it were intended that all election petitions now pending should be tried by pre-existing tribunals, where was the necessity of calling upon the House of Commons to assert that the present mode was so inconve nient, that they must affirm the principle of a new tribunal within two days after the Bill had been printed and put into their hans l s ?—( Cheers.) Ile tare credit to the Hun. Mover of the Bill for good intentions ; ho believed that the lion. Gentleman sincerely meant what the last clause of the Bill contained—viz., that the Bill should net take effect until after the present session of Parliament, and that it shotild not, with respect to existing petitions, supersede the existing tri bunals ; but he begged to remind that Hon. Gentleman, that if a majority of the House were so inclined, there was nothing so easy as, in passing through Committee on the Bill, to strike out the two lines at the end of it, and thus leave the election petitions to be tried by the tribunals constituted by the present Bill, and thereby to give it an ex post facto operation.—(Loud cheers.) They would, doubtless, have the assistance of the Honourable Mover of the Bill in re sisting such -a proposition—a proposition fraught, as he con sidered it, with the grossest injustice.—(.Loud cheers from the Opposition.) They might depend upon it, that what ever objections there might be to the existing tribunals, yet if the country understood that that House of Commons meant to postpone what had hitherto been considered their first and most positive duty on the assembling of a new Parliament, namel;, to determine who of the sitting Mem bers were duly elected, and who of the sitting Members re tained their seats against the intention of the law in that House, the country would not approve of the House of Com mons in thus gising the Act of Parliament an ex past facto operation —(Cheers.) The main question, therefore, was whether or not the new tribune] was, in point of fact, to supelsede the existin g law, and to have the. election peti tions referred to it? On Wednesday, the 6th of December, the Noble Lord opposite pronsi;ed to deliver an opinion deci sively upon this point. They would know the opinion of Go vernment on the 6th of December, and lie, for one, would not consent to the second reedit'g of this Bill until that declaration was made on the part of Government.—( Loud cheers from the Opposition.) If he wanted any other reason, the speech of the Hon. and Learned Member for• Dublin was, he thought, deeisive against proc cling with the Bill. The Noble Lord opposite said th a the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had cut sway from his Noble Friend ( Lord Stanley) the whole ground upon whi, h he objected to this Bill. As far as the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin was personally con cerned, es far 'ye concerned his personal wishes and feelings ie the matter, there could be' no doubt but that that Hon. and Learned Member, greatly to his (Sir R. Peel's) surprise, did waive h s personal wishes and feelings ; but, as far as the ar guments and reasoning of the Hon. and Learned Member were concerns', they remained with undiminished force.. If they consented to the second reading of the Bill it would mns, not directly imply that the House of Commons ought to retain the juris diction in election matters in their own hands. Now he would not hesitate to say, that if he thought that the House of COmmons deserved the character which he hail heard given to it by those who were the most anxious for a reform, be should have desired that the jurisdiction might be trans ferred from the House of Commons, and he would have con curred in the principle laid down by the Honourable and Learned Member for Dablin. If the Members of that H ous e were so influenced by party feeling that they were not fit to decide questions that arose upon Election Com mittees under the tribunals as they were at present 'con stituted, they surely would not be fit to decide them under the tribunal - propt e t e d by the lioncurable and Learned Mein her fur Liskear d. That Hon ourable and Learned Member said that this was a bit b y bit Reform, that lie was proceeding very gradually, that he wanted'to h ave as li t tl e re f orm as poi sible. The Hon. a nd Learne d Member fur Dublin, on the other hand, denied t ha t the H ouse of Commons was a fit tri bunal, or of a character sufficiently impa r ti a l t o fi t it f or t h e . -consi 'oration of these questions, aid therefore he wished to i, t h i c i t objections lishtiob to l d have them transferred another tribunal. lie Was su r p r i se d, after the position thus l aid dosn b y the Hon, and Learned Member for Dublin respecting the character of the lioase of Commons, and the inferenc es thus d• awn by m cement to the second re cling of this Bill. which appli e d to the existing tribunals would apply e la the tribunals constituted by the present Bill. It they could get an impartial tribunal of five or seven pe itaerested in the election petitions, he was convinced that the House of Commons would lose nothing by the transference of the power of deciding in such cases to a body so uonatituted. The great difficulty was as to the mode of selection. It must be admitted that they mug be selected by some body. If it were left to the Government it would be open to strong ob jections, the great objection being the difficulty of constituting nn impartial arid a satisfactory tribunal. To the appointment of slesessors by the Speaker he would decidedly object. best i n t en _ satisfactory could no t coneaiye any proposition tending more to destroy the i m partial character of the chair.-e-( Hear, a Ije was afraid thati t t i o % n v s o , ul t d o b n e !4k i Bible which p ss e . a o li u c ti r l s ? rs e i th s a o t s h to f a l l e l pa'ties. • • ft would by a Speaker of a new P ar li ament wou placing _, s in a most unpleasant situation. sse Mitt no; affirm this prie s . ciplo of the 1.341, It aproared to him to be a very grave sees, and he - .could much rather not giv, I decisiVelY upon fil e s . ° pants. He would• also much rather reserve to himself a fair opportunity for a full consideration relative to his views of the challenges prlposed to be allowed; It was possible that the right cf challenge where five challenges were made, would be to insure the knocking out the Crains of the Committee. No..v he (Sir Robert Peel) was not sure that it would not lead to a directly opposite result. Opposing parties, on hearing a certain number of names called, might be in doubt whether or not they should exhaust their chal lenges by objecting to the names called, or whether they should not wait for a better challenge. This would at once be the introduction of the element of chance into 'the new tribunal. The objection to the present system waS; that it was ialluenced by party motives, and that the Members were selected by chance ; but it was evident that the. same objec tion applied to the new tribunal. He had never read the Bill tid he came into the House. The Noble Lord opposite ( Lord J. Russell) said that the Bill had passed through the second reading last session. New he would ask was this fair? H. admitted that it did pass the second reading, but it was dis . tinctly understood that the Bill should not pass into a law.— (No, from the Ministerial benches.) He Was sure that was the general impresSiOn.—(No, no, from Lord Howick.) He thought that an objection was taken by the Attorney-Ge neral to proceeding further with the Bill.—( No, no, from the Attorney-General.) He 'could not refer to the speech of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman. - ile trusted to memory, and that was his impression. If, then, *there was a general feeling on the part of the - House that.the present tribual was so unsatisfactory that it required amendment, but that those amendment: should be applied after mature deliberation—if the Honourable and Learned Mem ber for Liskeard really desired that they should not look upon this question as a party measure, but that it should be gravely and deliberately discussed ; above all, if Hon. Geotlemen wished that this question should receive a calm consideration, if they wished maturely to consider the transferring of their power, as far as their jurisdiction was concerned, to somebody impartially selected, with the consent of the House of Com- mons, he hoped they would all concur in deferring the second reading of this Bill. He asked the lion. and Learned Member for Liskeard himself to postpone the 13.11 until the' [louse had an opportunity of giving it further consideration. Above all, be hoped those Members of the House of Commons who were now called upon to exercise their functions for the first time would refuse to pledge themselves to affirm the prin ciple of this Bill on that night, and that, on the contrary; they would support the proposition of his Noble Friend, which was not that the present system should not be amended, not that the Bill should be rejected, but merely that there should be a delay of two months interposed, in order that public attention having been drawn to the subject during tho recess, old Members and new Members might be enabled to apply them selves to the subject with more caution and deliberation, thus affording a better prospect of their arriving at a conclusion upon principles satisfactory to themselves and the country. Lord PALMER STON did not think the reasons assigned by the Right Honourable Baronet • for the proposed delay appeared to him at all satisfactory.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He quite agreed with the Right Honourable Baronet that it was most desirable that whatever the House did upon this subject should be done with calmness and the absence of all party feeling.—(flear, hear.) The object the Bill had in view was to relieve the. House from an impression existing in the public mind affecting the votes of that House, in which, therefore, they had all common interest. It appeared to him impossible to deny that the present mode- of decid ing upon the Election Petitions was not such as was satisfac tory to that House-or the country—(Hear, hear)—therefore, as far a; they were called upon by reading this Bill a second time to affirm the principle that some change should be made, he, for one, was perfectly prepared to affirm that principle, and he called upon the House to declare itself of the same opinion. The principle involved in the second reading of the Bill was, that some change was desirable, and that it was expedient, in the first place, to att,mpt to make such a charge as should reserve, R 3 far as possible, to the House of Commons itself jurisdiction over those ques tions. If he understood the Right Honourable Baronet correctly, he thought he seemed not altogether ' in disposed to the constitution of some tribunal different from the House of Commons to , which these ques tioneshould be referred. He (Lord Palmerston) thought that the House ought to pause before they proceeded to that extent. He was prepared in the second place to affirm the other principle which the second reading of the Bill carried with it, namely, that they ought in preference to endeavour to keep these questions within their own jurisdiction. The Right Hon. Baronet asked the House why could they not postpone the second reading of the Bill for two months, till after the recess ? The reason was obvious ; they had now no business in the House ; they had now no business before them to prevent the House from giving their full attention to this subject. If, indeed, they postponed it till after Christina other matters of pressing importance would come before them, so that it would be impossible for them to give this subject the same attention which they were now enabled to give it. With regard, therefore, to the principle's which they were called upon to affirm by reading the Bill a second time, and also with regard to convenience as to the question of time, he thought the House was bound to proceed to the second read ing of the Bill.—(Cheers.) Mr. FRE S H Fl EL D rose amidst loud cries of " Divide I" He - said that it appeared to him that the constitution of the present Parliament afforded anything but a reason for change. In the present Parliament parties were so fairly divided that there was a much better chance of obtaining a fairly selected Committee. Another reason for not proceeding wtth the second reading of the Bill was, that it was not intended to come into operation with respect to those elections which had taken place. The House then divided : For the second readine- 214 • Against it V 160 Majority —s4 The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed. On our readmission to the gallery we found Mr. O'CONNELL nn his legs, giving notice that in Coin. nsittee on the Bill he should move the omission of the lasi clause.—( Loud cheers from thn Opposition.) POOR-LAWS. Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose whilst considerable confu sion prevailed in the House, and said that a Committee had been appointed last year on the subject of the working of the Ponr•laws Amendment'Act, the revival of which it was now his intention to move. He would only observe that he did not move the appointment of the Committee now with any ex pectation that they would be able to bring their labour?, to any successful re4ult before the Christmas recess ; but at the same time they might be a'de to adduce some very important evidence even within that period, and, at all events, it was better to make a b.ginning. The Noble Lord . then moved that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the distribution of relief to the pour in England uuder the orders Of the Commissioners. Mr. WAK LEY said, that as he had a motion on the Paper-on the same-subject this evening, he wished to ask the Noble Lord whether he would have any objection to move an instruction to the Committee that they should go - into the details of the medical department before any other ? Lord J. RUSSELL could hardly undertake to move such an instruction now. The operation of the system of medical relief to tke poor was a subject which must necessarily come under the consideration of the Committee ; but, at the same time, he thought that it was a subject so intimately connected with the other features of the case that it could hardly be se parated into a distinct subject for inquiry. He would only add, that he ( Lord 3. Russell) should be ready at all times to in quire into any facts connected with the medical department of the Act which the lion. Member or any other Ilentleman might be inclined to submit to him; and then, if the 'lion. Member was not satisfied, he could resort to his original pro position, and move an instruction .to the Committee on the subject. Mr. DA RBY wished to draw the Noble Lord's attention to a point connected with the.operatinn of the poor relief upon which great feeling was expressed, particularly in the county of Essex. There were there, as in all parts of the country, a great number of labourers who had married under the old si.tom of poor-laws, and had families of children which they were unable to maintain, arid it was earnestly desired by them that the Board of Guardi:na should have the power to admit some of their children into the house. This was a matter in Ishieh be tit-night it was abscßutely necessary something should be clone before the Committee terminated its inquiry. Colonel WOOD wished to know whether the Noble Lord proposed that the inquiry should extend to the operation of the workhous:i system? A very strong feeling prevailed throughout the country against the kind of relief administered in they buildings, and against the further erection of them, many of which he must sty, 100k..d more like prisons than the abodes of the aged and infirm. Mr. LIDDELL said that great excitement prevailed throughout the north of England against the workhouse system, and many people were anxious for correct informa tion on the suliject. Under the pres - ent state of feeling on the subject, he trusted, at least that he should be able to ob-- taht an assurance from some of the Members of her Majesty's Government, that in cases where the workhouse system was notiound to be absolutely necessary it should not be ex tended. The Hon. Gentleman then stated the ease. of some districts in his neighbourhood where he old system had been fulled to work well, and where relief was never to be given to the able-bodied. Mr. HUME said that it was but too true that great pains had been taken by the enemies of this measure to excite a one te or two Hon. t t e n m e e ait s upon feeling against in the minis of the-people thr oug h. ou t the , country. The observations of the Hon. G ent l eman who had just sat down were calcu l ated to as 3 ist in this result; but in c e s n e tio o n bse o r r in s the cire ( u ; l a ;a bud tl)hice' p c on which, if true, it became incumbent upon him not to v ts a in .t r i s e e to o l f r leave the House this evening without moving for an inquiry on the subject, The Hon, Member stated that in Sunder land 200 children had been deprived of parochial relief, and that dark rumours were abroad. that many of them had been deserted bs their parents to all the horrors of starvation. Now, he would ask the [lan, Gentleman whether, as a Ma 4istrate of the county, be had ever taken any steps to ascer tain the truth of any of these rumours.—( Hear, hear.) If Hon. Gentleman had not investigated the matter in his ma gisterial capacity en the spot• and at the time, all he could sa y wa s, that it now doubly behoved him to take every pos tilde step towards a rigid investigation of all the circum stances alleged.—( Hear, hear.) It was just such half and-half statements as the lion. Gentleman had this evening made that had prejudiced the oonritry against tltc t ill, and led to the unfortunhte'proceedings which they had recently wit nessed,—( Cheers.) ill; own opinion of the Bastardy clauses was, that if any part of the Act had eperated bOter than any o ther it was those very clauses. By tile . returns which' he held is his hand it appeared that th:•ir operation hal led to the rri:ht gr4(ifying rt - 14 - cheering results tlitoughout the country. • 'Mr. LID DDLL said that regard to the f,ct of 200 chiHren having been deprive] of pa-ochial relief in Sunder land, he happened fortunately to be fortified in his statement by the written statement of - a gentleman who, he I.lieved, • was better 'aware of tne state of affairs in Sunderland than any one else.—(Cries of " Name, name.") He must de cline naming the gentleman he referred to, unless called 'upon by the Chair, when he should certainly obey; but be thought it would be rather hard to compei him to do tO: At the same time he had no doubt but that the •gentle man would be perfectly ready at any time to make the same statement at the bar of'the House which he had-done in Writ ing to himself (Mr. Liddell), namely, that "in the borough of Sunderland 'more than 200 infant children had teen totally deprived of parochial relief." This was his authority . for the first statement he had made. He had also stated that rumours had been afloat as to the finding of infant children deserted by their mothers, and found dead, or in a state of starvation. These rumours, he begged to repeat, certainly did prevail, and they were. mentioned in the papers at the time, though he was not aware that any caws had been brought to proof. With re gard to the observation of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, that it was his (Mr. Liddell's) duty, in his magisterial capacity, to have instituted an inquiry into these reports, he begged to ob serve that he was not a magistrate for the county of Durham, though he had acted for the county of Northumberland. The occurrences alleged took place far from his residence, and he did not hear of them till some months after they were said to have taken place. Mr. HUME inquired whether the Hon. Gentleman could state any one case of a child being found dead from starvation, and where it hap_p2ned ? _ _ Mr. LIDDEIL was not prepared to give the par,iculars of any i . :4dividual case of the kind, but he believed he could refer the lion. Member to some •infor►nation on the subject, particularly to the newspaper wherein the circumstance was mentioned at the time. An HON. MEMBER, who spoke from the Opposi.ion but whose name we could not ascertain, said that the measure of Poor-laws was calculaiel to press with undue severity 'on a most meritorious and industrious class of the community. Mr. G ORING was of opinion that the poWer of the Guardians should be considerably increased, in order to have the measure carried into Operation. As to the un:firmity system, it was clear that it was quite impracticable. Scarcely two unions existed with the same rules and regula tions.--( Cries of " No, no.") This was a fact which he in sisted upon as undeniable. He hoped that the Noble Lord would enforce on the Commissioners under his guidance the, necessity of giving the local Guardians of Sussex a larger power than seemed to be contemplated by the measure. Mr. GUEST was satisfied that all the Commissioners wished was a full and fair inquiry. General JO H NS ON trusted that a fair and extensive inquiry would be instituted, not only into the workhouse system, but into the whole working of the Bill. He feared in its pre sent shape it could not be carried into operation in the ma nufacturing districts, where on a sudden emergency, such as took place in Preston some time back, thousands were thrown out of employment by the cessation of work in the manufactories. Sir H. VERNE Y had no hesitation in saying that this was the most favourable and useful Bill which he had'ever apsisted to have passed into a law.—(Hear, hear.) He knew that it was a topic used successfully at the late election to de prive many Hon. Members of votes which they should other wise have received. That was his own case ; but he would much prefer losing► his seat to a departure from his duty.— (Hear, hear.) Before this law was passed an instance came under his observation which tended to show, in a striking light, the tendency of the labourers to look for parochial relief. He was called upon to carry into effect the regulation of a charity with which he was connected— namely, to select six persona as the objects of its bounty who had never applied for relief frotn the poor-rates. His efforts, however, were unavailing, for be could not find one person of the description he required amongst the poor of the district. Mr. CRIPPS said, it was well known that the late Mem ber for Berkshire (Mr. Walter) condemned the new system high and low, but it was a curious fact, that within the last ten days that gentleman having inspected a union in his county with great attentien, extolled every thing he saw, and said that, although he should ever continue an enemy to the measure, he could not have imagined that the system would be brought to such perfection as he witnessed. Major CHRISTOPHER washappy to say that in his neigh bourhood it had worked to the satisfaction not only of the poor, but of all classes. Mr. BAINES, as Member of the former Committee, would appeal to every Member of that Committee whether almost every charge that had been made, either against the Commis sioners or the Board of Guardians, had not broken down on examination. He was happy that the Noble Lord proposed to reinstate the Committee, because he was convinced that inquiry would tend to remove those prejudices which existed against the measure, and which he regretted to find were in some parts of the country breaking but into open outrage. In addition to the reduction of the public expenditure, this was one of the most important reforms of the age. He had voted against the measure, but he was not indisposed to retract .his opinions when he found them wrong. Mr. HODGES begged to remind the House that there had been many charges against the Commissioners which he former Committee had not inquired into. He hoped at this would be a full and fair inquiry. Mr. WHITE and Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose together. The Noble Lord gave way, and the Hon. Gentleman said, as Chairman of a Board of Guardians in the county of Durham, he could state that the new Poor-law was working great benefit to the community. The paupers had more attention paid to their cases, and greater discrimination was exercised in the sums dispensed out of doors, and in the management Di! the union workhouses. He was happy to see the Cornraittee re appointed, and would say that the law, as a whole, should have his best support. He had made a similar declaration on his canvass at Sunderland, and it had not deprived him of the favour of his constituents. Lord JOHN RUSSELL was glad he had given way, not only because the Hon. Gentleman, had given much decisive testimony in favour of the new Poor-law, but because he, being Member for Sunderland, if any of those dark rumours pre. vailcd whiSh had been alluded to, the Hon. Gentleman would have been most likely t 3 rose his election by coming forward as the defender of the Poor-law. Mr. LIDDELL said the Hon. Member for Sunderland had not denied the existence of the rumours to which he had alluded. Mr. WHITE said he had not heard of any such. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that if there had happened any events so horrible as to justify the dark rumours which had been described in Sunderland, there could be no more unpo pular ground for a candidate than to say, " I am Chairman of a Board of Guardians, and I mean to stand by the law." He could assure the lion. Member that he'paid very little atten tion to - such rumours, and he should advise him—(he hoped he would have en opportunity, by being on the Committee)— he should advise him to examine into the facts which were slated, and which were put into the public papers, which the lion. Gentleman seemed to consider a great authority on-the subject.—( A laugh.) He would mention one or two in stances, in which the Commissioners had taken measures to sift the truth of such stories. It had been stated at Hud dersfield, that there was a man in a workhouse in the neigh bourhood of Cambridge, who asked permission to go out nod to bring his wife with him, when he was told that she had been buried a fortnight before. The Commis sioners disbelieved the story, but they determined to as certain its foundation. They accordingly sent to all the union workhouses in the county of Cambridge, to inquire whether anything of the kind had occurred, and the answer they received was, that no such occurrence had taken place. Then they sent to inquire from idiom th'e statement had been heard, and it was traced to a gentleman who said he had heard such a report, but not with respect to Cambridge, or with re spect to any particular place. 'He was then asked, " Will you tell the name of the person who told you?" The answer was, s No : he had it from a person he had never seen before. It had been stated in a conversation by a person he had never seen before, and whose name he did not know, that such a "thing had happened somewhere in some workhouse ; and this was the general answer that gentlemen would find given to any inquiry into the foundation of similar rumours. With re gard to the terms of this inquiry the - Hon. Member for Bre con asked him whether it would be so extensive as to include th man utmost of workhouses. His answer was, that the inquiry would be as extensive as th a t o f l ast year , an d no doubt it would include the management of workhouses, be cause it was to include everything that was done under.the di. rection.of the Commissioners. Ile had only chosen the par -. ticular words used in his motion, because he did not choose that it sinAild admit of iheconstruction that a majority of that •110113 e were inclided to sanction a repeal of the law. He therefore Trellised an inquiry into every thing that had been done' under the superintendence of the Commis sioners, rather than an inquiry into the law. itself. With re spect to the nature of the inquiry, mil the way in which it seas ttj proceed, the great principle of the law roust be kept in view. The great principle of the law was a distinction between de solation and labour,' or whatever were the other roarees from which individuals drew their subsistence. The most prevalent abuse in the Country under the old Poor Law was the mixing up of the wages of labour; and the relief administered under the Poor Law.' It had been said that the labourers them selves did not acknowledge that they received any benefit from the law. lie did not recollect that there was any evi dence of labourers making this acknowledgment; but he ad. matted that there might, without that, be ample proof of be nefit to the character,' the ernduct, and the occapation of the working classes. - Ile would mention one or two instances, not the most striking that could. be produced, but which had been s'ated, in co sequence of his inquiries, in the Committee. One instance was that (,f two labourers in a paritl,tobneeforoef whom was u bad, unskilfuls.and idle labourer, the other an able, skilful, hard-working, and industrious man. The statement made by the person who mentioned this case was, the passing of the Poor Law Act, the idle labourer, by sonic nominal work on the road, received- from the parish a larger sum than the industrious man,.by working hard from day to day and from week to week, could earn for the support of his f am ily, and that considerable irritation existed in the mind of the latter that he was not able to earn what was received by the other from the parish. The case since the passing of the Poor-law Act was reversed. The hard working industrious man received a proper remuneration, and the lesS industrious man obtained a lower rate. Was not this a good lesson for the labourers ef Otis c ou n t ry ; t h at they would be rewarded for their industry and good conduct? The other instance to which he referred as to the bad working. of the. former law was that of two men who had wed 2qr4 - 40 Wtoney, and put it into a be nefit ssteiety. TRey f oun d t h at this was of no use to them, as a deductiori was made on account of their savings, and they were not allowed so much money as those who vent their money t heir at beer-hous.s. The consequence w tale Leer in money out of the.b. refit sbciety; and Spent it at 1 . - 11 , - those nb° in order to pile° themselves upon an equaity ‘‘lt refs, ho t s" were rewarded by the state of the law. The labou d „ a thus 111, ever, now found the benefit of their savings, had not dustry and frugality received the benefit a hich they so d 'enjoyed under the old law. These were small iosten' es, ae .„ t o f not so striking as many that had taken place. The eu",. or • h _. t h e to ited a ' ter the mea;ure, hOwever, was not to be estim: , ea ayerS• that th-v tooe millions of immey which hal been saved to the r a ' F o t• the but by the question whether it improved the character to in. poor, and whether sufficient encouragement was gi v 5 Ad. dustry and frugality wl;ich was formerly given to idlene s• oother miffing this to be the principle of the law, theta canto te question, which was a test of destitution ? It was shed dat hese make a distinction between those who received wages au e a to l who were in a state of destitution, in which respect abushesbuot formerly Frerailed, and the Commissioners thought tha t I t hat, ia test in this respect was the workhouse. He must s a Y. te st, many instances, he also considered ibis a very sufficient as on the one hand the able-bodied labourer would not go a avotkhouse, and, on the other, pari s hes found it a%P cii bs to increase his na;ges rather than incur the expense of airy support. But he admitted that it was a fair object of leg whether the ww khouse was a universal test.. Ile did not r s e : t that, when children were turned out of employment, or g „„. distress prevailed in a m a nu f actur i ng town, every pers on plying for relief sh ou ld b e se n t to a workhouse ; but let soll L.st i. test taken, sufficient to shot that these persons were a ‘ e tute, end that money was not giva to those who did not e _ d. re quire relief, and then the object of the law would bc answe tro: An Hon. Gent. had asked bins whether the Commissioners tevfor,,,, about to order relief to those who had been married befog the passing of the new Poor-law, and to. take their eh", e into the workhouses. This subject was much under cons u: ei . atior. His own impression was, as hp hal stated at the f',71,„ inquiry that the taking any part of a family into a workroa_id would be a part of the allowance system, and that we shl ) , be in danger of falling backinto rat system. It m i g ht ir d said that a distinction could be male between those vill ° ri l been married b e f ore th e l aw an d those who had been lt i , arr. e t since. His apprehension was , th at t hi s d . l st i nct i on It'"ut,ti st, t he he preser ve d. B es id es , if the practice were adopt e° father Would get rid of his children, the tie between P arc • and children would be dissol ve d, an d we s h ou ld fall eg an o l. into the abuses which had been removed by the ch an g. e dlv the law. This w as hi s own opinion :.but it would undoubieia be for the Committ ee to consider whether ansthing sit °u be done on this su bj ect . 'S ome gentleman had sPnken:a" the large size of un i ons . H e k new that l arge unions favourably viewed by th e C omm i ss i oners, but he cosi ners s te the point worthy of inquiry. There were many objecti °n s large unions. The difficulty of bringing the Guardielleo, gether, and the obstacles which the poor would have t ° 4 t aat tend with in reaching the place, were such objeeti° ll- do ce nothing but the most overwhelming evidence ought to le rs , the House to acquiesce in the view of the Commisni °ne t he If, as the Hon. M em ber"for Kent said, the operation of law bad net been f u ll y i nvest i gate d by the former Cole°, it„re te e r ho was sure it was no f au l t o f t h e C ommittee, for he hea,_ao n i r known any Committ ee pay more attention to the su bj ec t ov. nts it ; but there really were suc h a num b er of frivolous come the and of witnesses in support of thdna, that they took tIP ore time of the Committ ee unnecessar il y. He hoped with r . in te . method, and a bett er di str ib ut i on o f i ts time, t h e ti ° , l , o mittee would now be able to go more evensively into ;1 whole question of th e o p erat i on o f the law in the agrienitnir districts, and to consid er genera ll y t h e question that m ore it mediately interested the House—namely, in what man ne ri l l s i should be put in o p era ti on i n the northern and manufac t i n et u— parts of the count r y. H e was we ll aware that there bad e been in those districts such abuses as had prevailed in, „. south, but the Com m i ss i oners f oun d that, taking any dietr' n "h e say of fifteen parishes—there were always three or f nur irhe which aura was a:ten lency to a bad system of Poor-lese• ha d advantage there wou ld not cons i st i n so great a change es been made in the south. It would rather arise from the a c ee . cumstance of relief to th e p oor b e i ng p l aced under t h e ru l. lion of the board of guardiars instead of a vestry, so that bo vestry would have power to introduce abuses, but wo ulu checked by a more en li g ht ene d b o d y, which would supe r ! m ". tend the whole. The Noble Lord's motion was then agreed to, and theC 6lY mittee was named. On the motion o f M r . MAHONEY , leave was gilf a to , c , bring in a Bill t o amen d an act passed in the 4th Geo. I V.A. 93, entitled " An A c t t o di v id e t h e county of Coik, f o r ....- purpose of holding additional Sessions therein. COMMISSIONS OF THE PEACE. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL obtained leave to brine in a Bill for contiauing for a limited period Commissions F°o the Peace, which w ou ld o th erw i se exp i re in the course of ale days, in consequence of the demise of his late Majesty. 0 1 The Bill was then brought in, read a first time, and orde to be read a second time to-morrow. PRINTED PAPERS. On the motion of Mr. F. BARING, the Committee:; Parliamentary printed papers was re-appointed. Mr. HUME s h ou ld submit afropositi o n t o t h e Col°'. 0 that the Ordnance maps be sold at the same cheap r ite as 00 other Parliam en t ary papers. T he Ordnance Survey baJ chat the country a l arge sum o f money, and it was but just I t a it should ha v e th e a d vantage of possessing the mar - cheap rate. IRISH CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS. o f Mr. BLEWITT postponed his motion on the subjeo n g petitions against the return of certain Members for Itch from Thursday next until the 6th of December. The House then adjourned, at a quarter past ten. COURT CIRCULAR. The Queen gave audiences yesterday to the Earl of -- Albc marle, Viscount Melbourne, and Lord Hill. The Royal dinner party at the new Palace last evening, 0 , eluded her Roy a l Hi g h ness t h e D uc h ess of Kent, the of of London, the • Duke of Devonshire, E ar l an d Countes s 4, Granville, Earl and Countess of Surrey. Vi scoun t SycliT', 9 Viscount Melbourne, Lady John Russell, the Hon• de l Lister, Lady Barh am , th e M arqu i s o f Headfort, Hon. CO' Cavendish, Hon. C. Murray, and Colonel Wemyss. Yesterday was the birthday of the Princess M a ry of O . bridge. Some of the Members .of the Royal Family c if the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge. In the afternoon t" fbe Royal Hi g hn esses , accompaLied by Pri nce G eorge and,', 9 % Princesses Au gus t a an d M ary o f C am b r i dge,visited the Puc'',l(l ,- of Gloucester. H er M a j esty, attended by Lady Barger' te r the Hon. Mis s Pitt, j o i ne d t h e R oyal party at Gl o uces House. A Cabinet Council was held at the Foreign Office, Y es ilor, day afternoo n . All th e Mi n i sters, except the Lord Chance' were present. 'I he Council sat an hour and a half. t ba Mr. O'Conn e ll an d a d eputat i on had an interview w ith Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday, in Downing.strec t • The Russian Ambassador and the Sardinian Minister, trail acted business yesterday, at the Foreign Office. ba d Sir Valentine Blake, Colonel Jones, and Mr. Larpent' Ace , interviews with L or d Gl ene l g yesterday, at the Colonial O'for The Marchioneis of Lansdowne left town on SaturdaY , Dover. The Earl and Countess of Lichfield had a dinner pa" , g Saturday, at their residence in St. James's-square ; to cin 'ihe the company were the Earl and Countess of Shrewsbury' o y Earl of Scarborough, Lord and Lady Vernon, Sir and Lady Vivian, Colonel and Mrs. Anson, and Mrs. Phi' SPORTING INTELLIGENCE• TATTERSALL' S—YRsrEnne r. ht it Although very little was done on the Darby, we have thou . g_ og lit advisable to give the prices against such horses as were b''' to ic under notice in the course of the afternoon, and at the Sa nie n loo to state, that o f S co t t ' s two, Cobham and the co lt ou t of - ,l°° l to a dam, the latt er now h as the call, so that it is now reduce:loo toss-up which, if e i t h er, i s or has begin lamed. The few be t were not of a nature to require observation : • 0 to 1 agst Mr. J. Daj's D'Egville—afkred 21 to 2 agst Lord Jersey's Cobweb colt—offered 16 to 1 agst Mr. E. Peel's The Early Bird--offered 18 to 1 agst Mr. Bowes's Grey Momus—Offered 20 to I agst Mr. Coombes's Cobham—offered 0 ) to 1 20 to 1 agst Mr. Armit age ' s e. --Nonplus's d.—take 20 to 1 agst Lord Exeter's Marinella colt—offered 21 to 1 agst Colonel Peel's lon—taken 23 to 1 agst Lord Suffield's Bamboo—take 33 to 1. _died 35 to 1 agst Lod Chesterfield's c. out of Tranby's dam 40 to 1 agst Mr. A. Smith's Crackie—offered 40 to 1 agst Mr. Richardson's Mono Adam—offered, 50 to 1 agst Captain Berkeley's Bullion—taken: 500 to 400 on Grey Momus agst Volunteer—taken 600 to 500 on Grey Moms, agst lon—taken OAK. t he ton's to 1 and . afte rwar d s 15 to i l taken about the Dula! ° f the ton's Unique (sister to Ruby), arid only 13 to 1 offere i close ; 15 to 1 agst Lord SufAeld's Callisto—take 20. m........ The Qu een D owager has contributed munifice"ll,Y,' to the charities of Hastinis and St. Leonards. tier Maili ) ;sf bean continues t o improve, and when the weather p"ri her Majesty, att en ded b y her suite, drives along the esP lan in' er pony chaise. Earl Howe has left for Brihton• , nr tY The Duk e o f R ut l and w i ll enterta i n :Ilarg e l'wel• next month a n t ea ß ur e o l r v t o s ir sir Cas o tl b e e , rt in p e e lu e d l, inf e. the Dukes 01t ii Ilia Royal HiAness ß Prince Charles of cep au a! ! ! his lady are residin g in retirement, at Malta. tr nl ber Lord W o d e h ouse h as arr i ve d i n town from et Icy. After his Lordship has taken his seat in -the "°,3e K ill Lord s , an d b een re-sworn Lord-Lieutenant of Norfolk, ,1; . be leave L on d on to visit his valuable estates i n Corna::to3,rl queathed to hi m b y h i s maternal uncle , J o hn, filth 3 , v lord Berkeley; of Stratton. Lerd Wedehouse he held by his friend the Duke of Wellington. iii ienc e 6! Sir John Conroy is engaged at . his r , -- ( f tpe nts 0 et Vie.n.age.place, Kensington, in making up the ac"u" - fla ree late royal est tbliFhment at the palace. ghe ri hai been nominated on the roll of Sheriffs for Nlol , ,te cal ico shire, in whi c h coun t y h e h as purc h ase d a small e st.. Llynvramar. --='---=::-- - -n - - - —_f--------- - - - ""'" --- :.il 6 ''..);) PATENT I;EVER WA T v ; Ed 6 ii With silver deuhle-bottom cases .............................. 6 161 , , Thi3 celebrated construction Witli r,ilver hunting cases ................................. .•••••_ ll ~,bie,. watch can he made) is now uttered, with the latzst L o r o Z c al o . of I. e. the detat.thed escapement, jewelled m fou r . t ,iniillif r hand to mark the seconds, hard enamel dial, and mail! _, by to continue going while winding up, at the above prl" Working. Silver and Goldsmith, 47, ( tile most aecatat.ciii.`_'i,vciollers, • T. CO \ SAVO.RY, •,-,„ ( lorl• N.B.—Second-hand Watches purcbased in e% ___-- f -- - - p Ov ------ --------111fir° ' ° coo l Lautikal: Printed and Published by AIVHDO Yd n tbe 112, Strand, at The Sun Office, - No. 11% Sir of Middlesex.-,- - -Tuesday, November, 27, 163 " Coruhill, i chav ge. __, TFIE SUN, LON PON, TITF,SI) kV, NOVEMPO , III 28, 1837