The Sun. — London, England, 1812-12-11 00:00:00

I 3:PE NIA L PAR LT AM N • 4 . •• hOUSE LORDS, TIY.L'RiDA . Y,','Dk . C, 16: The '1.4011r CIIANCELj:oh took his seat on the. Woolsekek at a ouufter helot e four o'clock. 'The Earl of LONDONrEgRY one of the Irish lepresentative Peer4,)tOok the oaths and his seat; tlli. Lord Bishop of, LrrcumELD and Co- VE:NiTtzir. . . `PORTSMOUTH' HATMOUR, AND THE APPELLANT "iI.7ItISDIMON. A, conversation of some length Mmic& in, con sequence of Lord Ridesdale a calling their Lord s ships particular attention to van appeal cause be fore theni, viz. Parmeter v. the Attorney-General, a, • Which as it aespected the important naval, station, tbe harbour of Portsmouth, called for an early hear lng and deei:sion, in which view the Noble and Learned Lord assigned a variety of peculiar rea ons ; his object was to have the cause brought forward and, heard out of the ordinary course. The LORD CHANCELLOR quitted the Woolsack, and observed, that whatever importance may be added to the can: e in question as relating to Ports mouth harbour ; he felt it incumbent on him to Say, that it was iMportant towards the perform . anee of the duty of that House, that their Lord . Ships do take care all the Appeals shall be heard and disposed of, with as little delay, as may he practicable. However it may shock their Lord : ships to know, there were now on the table of the House such a number of Appeals; that Were the greatest diligence the House' had heed' knoWn 'to exert, now exerted, from year to ea-,'the last of them could not he heard in the regular coarse for eleven years ! _ Under such circumstances, no doubt could be entertained-, that,the persons filling the office of Lord Chancellot-ShOuld be enabled to mire such a portion of his time to that part of his duties, as that the hearing on these causes n may, commence at nine or ten, o ' c l oc k i n th e morning, and several hours each day of sitting set apart for that express purpose. Lord REDEsDaaa. perfectly coincided with what' fell from his Noble had Leaaned Friend, and re curred to the peculiar importance Of the case al luded to, as connected with a leading branch of the public' service ; he said he: would give every attention to the case in his power, but he despair ed of much good'being done in the way of expe diting that part of the business, Unlesa'a general • resolution of their Lordships' should take place, to , give their attendance at a' much earlier hour than . was now looked for, and unless a certain portion of time. to the hearinias, before. other 'business were eritei ed. upon. For that. purpose it was be Lad introduced' the Bill; but it was necessary also . that their Lordships should exert themselves, fully to 'effectuate theobject of that Bill, sh ould . it receive the sanction of the Legislature. He was confi dent that judie al' applications to that House had multiplied in conseqrience of the delays in decision, and in some cases the appeal was instituted merely for that purpose, and of this his Lordship cited a. ' prominent instance. Such was the crisis, that either of two things should non ., be done; to en able the Lord Chancellor to devote a greater por tion of his time, and to assist him in the perform flue of such duty by an adequate attendance, or to abandon their jurisdiction as a Court of .ulti mate resort ; I)etwecn these alternatives there was no compromise. first course, in every point of view, it was preferable to adopt ; than the latter rte. greater Nary could be inflicted ,on the admi- Itistration of British justice. The remedial lama- sure now under consideration was not new su long as twelve years ago it. was resolved to pro pose it under the auspices of Mr. Pitt, who had conferred with hiM on the subjet ; but to carry the pending measure into full and, salutary effect, lie repeated, the general assistance of the House would be necessary., and their L or d s hi ps must g i ve an attendance in , the mornings three or four days in the week. Lord Viscount MELVILLE shortly adverted to the extreme importance of the particular case ad verted to by the Noble and Learned Lord, and expressed his opinion that an early decision upon time case was highly desirable, as the well being la the Harbour of Portsmouth was in some degree - a volved in it. The LORD CHANCELLOR, with reference to what 'had fallen from ,his Noble and Learmal Friend, expressed his opinion, that to give a full and sa lutary affect to the pending measure, some cor feesponding, order of the House should be institnt-. ed, in order to secure a timely' and adequate at tendance. He adverted to a frequent laxity in this respect, and would take the liberty to state, lie had known occasions. 'where cases of privilege' were at issue, when for want of a due attendance, , be had been obliged to pace the floor of that House for one or two hours before the neces sary number of Peers attended to form a Coat - mittee. A'ftet some further conversation between the Noble and Learned Lords, bvt rather in an under voice, it was agreed the cause in question should le heard the first day after Tenn ; - that the Llouse should sit at an early hour, de die in diem, (lur ing the hearing, and•the Lord's be summoned to attcnd. Their Lordshipi then adjourned for some time .during pleasure. INSOLVENT DEBTORS AMENDMENT BILL. On the resuming of the Mouse, Lord ELLEI:Bo • litouGH moved .the second reading of this Bill, Ivhich took place accordingly, 'and. it was ordered 'to be committed to-morrow, ' Mr. Parker, from the CarnaticCommiszioners, 'presented the V.ighth Report of, the Board, which was ordered to lie on the table —Adlombed. , HOUSE OF COMMONS, •TitURSDAY; DEC. 10.: Mr. PARKER presented the usual Annual' Report 'of the Commissione-rs appointed to inquire into the state of the Nabob of the Carnatic's Debts, `Ordered to be printed and to lie on the table.• • , .SMITHFIELD MARKET. The. Sheriffs of London presented a Petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Cominon ijouncil praying that leave saii&lt be given to f-A l-- bring% in a Bill f or inipfoving the Smithfield Market. ,The Petition wag ordered to be referred to a .Com rnittee.., • On the- motion of Mi. RoßncioN, leave 7 , 7 is #ant . e4, to. bring -in a Mil for indethnifying shell persons as -had acted under the Order in Council of 1806, for regulating the , intercourse 'between the West India Isl an d s ' and Americs. The Sugar Brewery,,Bill, and the ; Starch Prohi bition Bill,, were read a third dine and passed. The Report of the Committee to consider the Provision for the Marquis of Wellington,' the Committee of Supply, and the Committee on the Rice Act, were brought up and agreed to, and Bills ordered accordingly. • . GERMAN LEGION. Lord FpLKSTONE said, that the ~ question to which he was now aboht to call the attention of the House, was-one of so great importance, that • he laid wished to call their attention to . it as early in the present Session as possible. He regretted the postponement of it, because, if Ministers did intend to oppose the production of thOse papers for which he Gras about to Move, he was sensible that owing to the absence of a number of his friends, they would haVe a greater advantage over him , at that time, than they could have had on the day on which he wished 'at first to' bring for ward the ..motion which he was now about to , make. He could not help. thinking that the in troduction of foreign officers into British corps, was a, complete infraction of the 'AAA's of the coon . tra. As no proper return had•been made of tile fo reign Officers in our British corps, part of his pre ' -sent motion would be fair a- return of'all the fo- ' reign Oriicers in our reginients, of all those who had- Staff . appointments, and who were in the 60th regiment. His Lordship then read the Order from the• Gazette, which conferred permanent rank on the OfficerS of the King's German Le gion, in consider a ti on o f th e s i gna l 'services of that corps on diftrent occaz:ions,.bet particularly :,at the late glorious victory at Salamanca. Lordship conceived that this Order was contrary to law, because it went to . give.to the Officers of . the Gentian Legion (a• corps, the: existence of which, by the Act of Parliament, was Only, tem .porarv) apermanent rank in the British rimy, .He s wished to know from a Noble Lord opposite (Pal nierston); • whether he was correct in his under standing of the Order ? Lord PALISTERSTONprofessed not to be able to comprehend whether the hiterpretatioh which the Noble Lord had given of the Order, was correct or not.. • Lord F9LISESTONE was,very sorry that he had not made himself understood to the Noble Lord. He conceived that the Order should be considered in no 'other lig-hi than an-attempt to foist the. Ge rman Officers into a permanent rank in the British , Army; that ,is, to make their rank, such that it would continue after 'it nfight be necessary or proper to discharge the corps, according to the • terms of the Act respecting the foreign troops in our service. • Lord PALMERSTONE said, it was never intended • 'that the Order which the Noble tord had read, should confer any privileges inconsistent with the. , Act respecting them. - Lord FOLKESTONE said, if the words of the Order were to be construed according to the coin—, paribri Onderstanding of the English Language, they certainly did imply,- that •privileges vere confer red upon the Officers of the German Legion, which woge, to all intents and purposes, inconsistent with the terms of the Act- of Parliament. The great exploits of the corps are made: the cause for conferring on them some great boon. But ac cording •to the. Noble Lard, this great reward Avhich was purported i u the O r d er , was no t g i ven them. In former times, when British Officers. went into‘the arnw in the temporary rank of su perior officers, without haVingagone• through the inferiot steps, it was not • usual for these officers to get promotion. But now the. German Officers who are only temporary, arc to be introduced in to our service, are to be promoted, and to shoulder out our old General Officers Who have risen pro gressively to their rank. The Order should have said " permanent rank in the • German , Legion," • and not in the British Army. The Order, accord- , ing to.the explanation of the Noble Lord, Was a iiinrk of absurdity in the Office from which it was issued—of want of knowledge of the English lan guage, and had the effect of deceiving the Officers , of the German Legion, besides causing much un- - easiness in the British Army. The object of his motion, therefore, would be, to procure informa tion, by which the Officers of the British Army' Might understand that they had not received the injury, ,which, in the present state of their knoW lcdge, they could tit.t fail to suppose that they had suffered.. His Lordship concluded by moving, " That. an humble Address 'be presented to his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, praying, that his' Royal Highness would be pleased to order, • that there should he laid before the House; Copies of all the Orders which, had been issued from the Hoese Guards, relative to the rank of the Officers in the King's Ger Man Legion." Lord PALMERSTON obserVed,that the nature of his explanation had induced the Noble Lord to alter the nature of his motion. Had the, Noble , Lord asked his question first, it might have • saved him the trouble of a speech. Temporary and per . - manent rank were technical terms, distinguishing two kinds of rank which differedin many respects. Permanent rank means the cOmmon ordinary rank possessed by every officer r iri the British army.— Temporary rank was that bestowed on persons who had raised'a number of men, or performed' sonic other service. The latter of these ; ranks was confined to the corps in which it was given; and as it ceased with the reduction of that corps, gave no title to half-pay. The order now ip.question implied nothing contrary to the law ; neither. did it apply to all the officers iii the German Legion ; only to those of superior rank. If the Noble Lord • had asked him whether the rank of these officers was to continue atter the corps was discharged, he should answer in the negative. The existence of their commissions would cease with that of the corps to which they belonged. Neither did the order entitle them to half-pay ; 'nor did it inter fere in the least degree with the interests of the' British officers in our service,. The Act under which the• German Legion' was organized, direct ed that when. German officers should serve along -with British, tat officer should take the prece deney soviloie:.ceinimission was of the Oldest date. j'The order in qncstinn did not tetul to- violate- the t law, becatise it gives German officers no one a&- vailtage in rank, promotion, or duration of ser:-. vice. The Noble Lord - tuip,lit then ask, what the . intention of the order was ? The intention of the Commander. in Chief, and what was understood by the German officers themselves, was that the rank of the Superior officers should be rendered perma nent instead of temporary ; and thus to pay them a compliment, which they well merited. The acK - .vantage o,liich it gave t4ent was pueely one of honour and distinetiOri ; for it would certainly he most, gratifying ttitheir feeling's to have-the satis.L faction of retaining; after peace, the title of that ' rank-Which they held &Hug the time of their service. The intention of e motion appeared to be merely that of displaying the sentiments ,of the Noble Lord, and many of his friends, on the question of einploying foreign troops in the Bri tish service. iK , Yet it was possible for persons who 'were quite as warmly attached to the Constituthm as the Noble Lord; to differ from his opinient on this question. He was sUrprised that any 'person who considered the present situation of this coun try, both with regard to the extent of its territo ry, and the magnitude of the operations carried on by it, should entertain a doubt of the policy of a _measure Which added so greatly to our military means. He would wish the_Honburable House to consider well, who the persons were respect ing whom they Were now discussing. Were they foreigners who obtruded themselves into the Bri tish service-to the prejudice of Britiqh officers ? No- 5 they were soldiers, .serving their legitimate Sovereign, and who came to this kingdom because their native country had unfortunately been ob- Jig-ed to submit to a foreign yoke. He would de sire 'the House to look to every Gazette, and see the-noble actions performed by these brave men in the Service of their' rightful Sovereign, and then let them consider whether the)' did not deserve the high compliment . which the order had 'bestowed upon them. He concluded by observing, that the Noble Lord had shown no proper cause why why his motion should be agreed to. Mid ;with regard to any motion for a return of the number, of the German officers in our service, he had no objection to produce such a one as had been _given last year. Mr. PON:iONE3 V said, that he must object to the latter 1) , (11 of, the Noble LOrd (Palmerston's) speech. He would appeal to the Noble Lord's re collection if one syllable had been by the Noble Mover respecting thepolicy of employing German troops in the British :service. The 'N - nble Lord (Palmerstone) alluded to. something which, had passeclin a debale upon the seine subject in the last Session, ,of Which debate, he believed, not two Members then present had • heard one word. He felt much, pleased at the explanation that had been given by the i r c b e Lord that night, and was now convinced; frOm that explanation, that there was nothing illegal in this order. It was intended, it appeared, merely fcv a.compliment to the Ger _man officers. Ile Was not, however, surprised that inforination ninon the should have been de sired by the Noble Lord (Folkstone),.for he ter , tainly was mot the only one that misunderstood the language in which the order Was conveyed. vio-w Irerpea•rtittlear - the word permanent, in the War'Office had a different meaning to that in which it was usually receited, and that it meant nothing more than teinprary. This was a novel construc tion, and if the Noble Lord (Palmerston) had re ceived the office, which he discharged with so much ability underJhe condition of its being per manent, and. should be deprived of .it in one year after the cessation of war, he doubted much whe ther that Noble Lord could call such an office permanent. Itowever,.if nothing inure was meant by the Order than, that mentioned by the Ndble . Lord, lie coldd, nest but consider it as 'perfectly harmless,. if the German Officers could consider such a privilege as a reward; he was glad of it ; but it so, he must:say-that they were the most asintereSted iOldiers be • had ever heard of. In' truth, the ward permanent was not accurate when applied to any part of the - military establishmen6. of the eriuntry; for be thanked God that its ex istence was de,pendentupon that House. Know ing such to be the fact, he was surprised when, he saw the word permanent, in the Order, and thought it must have arisen from something peculiar in the nature of the German Legion, but was'now.glad to find that such was not the case. The Noble Lord's explanation satisfied him that there was nothing contrary either to the, law or to the Constitution in the case. He, for one, begged not to be in • eluded among those who .entertained sentiments hostile to the employment of such a force as the German. Legion. Ike had learned, frOM good au thority, that they had upon different occasions distinguished theinSelves,. and that their , Officers had•freouently given proof of the highest ability. He could not indulge, any vulgar prejudices against them, merely upOn 'the ground of their being fo reigners. • Still in all free countries it was but na-_ tnral to suppose that some jealousy should exist upon such a subject. If the purport of tbe Order was such as it appeared to be, nothing could be more reprehensible. . It now appeared, however, quite intelligible and harmless. Sir H. MILD NI AY had no objection to the em ployment of .German troops, wider- proper regu lations ; he would, however, .vote•for the motion of his Noble'Friend, Lord Fol}sstone. Lord Alu_,ToN Said, that whatever may. be the policy of employing German troops, he thought it highly iMproper that they should be raised to the command of districts,, as in the case of Gen. Linsengen. • LardPALMERSTON said, that by a particular ar ticle, the officers' of the German Legion may take command as if their rank was permanent. The truth, hoWei'er, was, that the General alluded to by•the Noble Lord (Milton) never did .command a district ; there was however nothing in the law of the land to prevent it. 'Lord MILTON wished to know whether he did nott command after Lord Chatham. • Lord PALMEP,STON answered, that he com manded merely the depot of the German Legion. The lion. General STEWART did not see why, if entrusted. with the counna.na of troops abroad, the same trust may not be reposed in them at home. There was only one feeling with regard to the merits pf the German troops in the British Service, and he believed if the army were eau- vassed, that their opinion would be found to ,1?e in favour of the order, and that there would not •be a dissentient Voice about the permanent rank Which he understood to have been gixen (Heat, hea)-;froni the Opposition !)--There was one corps, in particular, Of the /,,,egion, he:meant the Hussars, yhiCh, had done more than 'any other corps on the Peninsula. said, that his 'mind was inexpres= sibly relieVed by the explanation he had just heard from the Noble Lord, (Palnierstone) of an Order which he, in common, hebelieved, with every, one in the country, and as it now appeared even with Some of the leaders of the army—bad utterly mis understbod.• The import of that Order seemed t.o have beta nothing less than permanent rank to the Officers .of the German Legion.. He must say again, that he felt inexpressibferelief from the ex planation gieri,.beeaue it proved that the con stitution suffered no violation. No eat thly consi deration could have induced him to him to have agreed to that Order, if the manner of it was such as he conceived it to have been before th e expla nation given that night. To praise the con duct of the German Legion would be super fluous. He, as well as the House, must feel that their merits and their services were great in deed ; but without meaning any disparagement to the Gallant General (Stewart) who spo%e last, lie must say, that while that gallant General viewed them with a militar; eye, it was the_busi ness of that House to view them constitutionally; and while they conearred with all who bore tes timorty to their services, ant to' let the feelings of the moment lead them so far as to forget, that though the circumstanees of the time Yendered the eniployment •of foreigners ne ce ss ar y, t h a t em ployment was . an exception,, and not a :ride.— Looking to the order, and looking to the.com munications which accompanied the order, he. w'as much mistaken it the report VhiCh would that night go abroad to the world, would not be the first contradiction given to its apparent im port: Every thingWoat to nourish the idea, that permanent rank was to , bereonveyed by that ,or der.. To such a measure, if p . ,oposed io him, he would have given his dissent. By what be. said, it was far from his intention - to hire rise to any jealousy among the different classes of which the army was composed; hut. recollecting that in the times of the constitution, a jealousyagainst the emplOymeq of, foreign troops existed ; rement ' beting, that in the case of the foreign troops eall edin to - guard that Constitution, the greatmari who led them almost went on .his knees to have them retained, yet that when the necessity .was at an end, they 'Were no longer employed ; calling all this to mind, he could not consider apprehen sions upon such a subject altogether groundless. Fie was much relieved by the explanation given, and though he was not in the habit of paying com pliments- to the Noble Lord, (Folkestone) he could :mot but commend him for bringing the sub ject forward, and dr aw in g f ort h th e true meaning of an Order that was in itself - so enigmatical as to deceive many: He was glad the. Noble Lord (Folkestone) had thus IRA him in a situation to pay some complir , ents, at the same time that he must vote against his motion. Lord FOI:k . .'STONE coudenthed the I - lan—Gene- Yar(Stcwart) for praising the German troops as superior to the British. General STEWART' said, that he "only spoke of only one particular corps. - Lord FOLKESTONE contended, that he used the word superior. (Cries of " No, No P The Noble. Lind then went into a strong statement of the relative losses sustained by the German and British corps on the Peninsula. . Lord PALMERSTONE explained. What he meant by temporary rank was, that it did not give com mand out of the corps in which the person hold-, ing it . served. But by a n A r ti c le o f W ar i t was provided, that when Germans and British served together, the eldest in rank should take the com mand._ With respect to Baron Linsingen, he never commanded a district. Lord FOLKESTONE explained. Mr. WHurnitEtin condemned the rage for Ger man uniform, which 'Was, he said, become too general anion:; British officers. Lord FOLKESTONE'S first motion was then read from the Chair, and • negatived without a divi sion. After a few observations from Lord Castle reagh, Lord Folkestone ; Mr. Whitbread, and Mr. Herbert, the other motions of Lord Folkestone were agreed to • 1. That there be laid upon the table, an Aeccunt of all Ger man Officers serving *ler - British Regiments. 2. 'An Account of all German Officers serving on the Stair. 3. A RCptlrn of all Officers of the 60th Regiment of Foot haviag, Staff Appointments at home. , • The Orders of the Day were then disposed of, find he• House adjourned. SMITHFIELD MARKET, DzcprpEß 11. This day's Market was pretty well supplied with the different kinds of Cattle ; Veal and Pork sold at last prices ; Beef and Mutton are dearer ; and the trade, for the most p -Art, was but indifferent. The sales in the Hay-market:were somewhat dull ; Hay and Clover fetched last prices ; Straw ob tained a better, price. The following prices ai d. numbers are an accurate statement • To sink the Offal, per Stonc of 811). Beef, 4s. 4d. to ss. 6d. 111Ltton; bs. Od. to 6s. Od. • Veal, Od. to 7s. ud. Laint), Os. to Os. Od. Pork, bs. Oil. to 7•. Od., Beasts, 1150. Sbecji, 5910. Calves; . 110. ,Pigs, 310. SMITHFIELD , HAY-MARKET. Hay, 4L Os. to 51. 10s. Straw, 21. Os. to 21. 10s. Clover, M. 106, to 71. 15$. • CORN-EXCHANGE, DEC. I 1 .-Welia:l' afew arrivals of Wheat to-day trona which oc casioncd a heavy sale, but no specific alteration in price. The supply of .Barleywas considerahle, and that article is.2s. lower.- Malt and' Rye re main as bef.re, excepting those of the coarser description. Oats are 3s. dearer.—Boiling Pease and Tick Beans maintain their former prices.' • Wheat - -87 s. 975. 10,25• Fine ditto- .• -140 s. Rye . 755. 80s. Barley - • - 445., 595. Ncw Ditto - - 645. Malt. - • - • - 925. lOis. Fine ditto - - '- • 108 s. White Pease tioil.)loSs. 118 s. New ditto - - - •1265. Grey ditto - - -80 s. • 84s. New ditto - -86 is. Tick Beans- -13 s. 78t. Old ditto - - - • 1264. ".;mull ditto 120 s. 1-265. Feed Oats - - - 355. 455. Fine ditto 625. Poland ditto -51 s. 565. Fine ditto• - 6Ss. Potatoc ditto - - 675. Rape Seed - - COI. 701. - Fine Flour - - 1054. 110 s. Secuuds - - -100 s. 105 s, ' 1