The Sun. — London, England, 1812-02-05 00:00:00

IMVERIAL PARLIAMEM. HOUSE OF PEERS, TUEiDAY, FEBLZUAIIY 4. STRAFFORD PEELtAGE. In a Committee of Privileges, some further pro. occu'ings, touching the claim of Sir W. Jerning,hani, Bart. to the above Peerage, took place. THE ROYAL ASSENT Was declared by Cotnmission (the first this Session) to the Malt Duty and Sugar Importation Bills. The Lords Commissioners were, the LORD CHANCELLOR, Earl BATHURST, and Lord WAL- &INGHAM. INSOLVENT DEBTORS. Earl GREY presented a Petition from certain Debtors confined at Durham, praying such relief as the House should deem meet, which was ordered to lie on the table. MOTS AT NOTTINGHAM. Lord HOLLAND, after briefly adverting to the alarming riots and outrages which have for some time prevailed in this part of the country, which he regarded, in point of principle, extent, and mode of proceeding, to be of an unprecedentedly serious and alarming nature; expressed, his wish to know of the Noble Lord opposite, whether it were the in tention of his Majesty's Ministers to make any com munication, or to lay any information before Parlia ment on the subject, and to explain what steo had been taken to put a stop, or suppress evils so alarm ing in their nature, and so extensive and increasing in their progress ? • The Earl of Litt earoor, declared himself inclined to give every proper and reasonable explauation in his power upon the subject. It was impossible that his Majesty's Government could be otherei..e than aware of, and alive to the importance of the subject adverted to by the Noble Baron. The simple ques tion which arose in his mind was, as to the time pro per for making such a communication. An opinion was entertained, that a system of outrage and dis order was carrying on in that quarter in a way not only to ailed the charaCter of the country, but most destructive to the comforts, the interests, and the means of subsistence of the unfortunate people, who unhappilly were implicated in those transactions. The subject was attended with many difficulties, which arose considerably more from the system that had been adopted, and from the character and form it assumed, approximating to a system of insurrec tion, carried on in an open manner. AU he could say upon the subjett, as it respected the conduct of his Majesty's Government, was, that whenever the question came to be inquired into, it would be found that Government had neglected no means for rescuing the country from the disgrace, or for putting a stop to evils of so alarming a nature. They had sent down some of the most intelligent Magistrates of London, to the scene of the disorders, furnished with means for the purpose of puttin 6 a stop to their progress, and they knew that bqteticial erfeels had already resulted from the steps which were taken, and whenever it should be necessary to call upon Parliament for its interference, every information should be regularly given. Lord HOLLAND conceived it to be the clear duty of his Majesty's Ministers to lay before Parliament every information in its power, respecting those dis graceful scenes which had gone on for months.— Within the last three weeks, if he was not rais:n formed, the disorders had assumed a more, formida ble shape. He was decidedly of opinion, that many days longer should not be suffered to elapse without the sense of Parliament being taken on toe subject. He thought it proper to say thus much, because he should not regard it quite seemly, to bring forward any proposition on the subject, without first in quiring of Ministers what they intended to do in that respect The Earl of LivaapooL, in reply, said, that the Noble Baron did not seerr. to conceive rightly what be had said. What he meant to state was, that mea sures were in the contemplation of his Majesty's Government which it was proposed to submit to the consideration of Parliament. Lord HoLLA D briefly replied, that after so many months had elapsed, Ministers should not be allow ed to contemplate much longer. The Larl of LAVDERDALB considered the conduct of Ministers as blam a b!e on the 2 )ccasion. What they had done was to send down a mission of a few Pol:ce iVlagistrates, furnished wit'' wha. means he did no :.now. Paiiianiznt, rhea:A - ore, should be applie !to for some other imam. Ina case of so much momentous impottalice, it was the duty of Parliament not to supiort such mca as the No ble Secretary of State may thin:: tit to propose, but seriously to invesvgate and ti hire into the causes which led to such disgracefcl and disastrous scenes. He believed these causes would be found to origi nate in the conduct of the present Ministers, which had brought the commie; :•e of the country to so low a pitch, and operated so disastrously towards thellla• nutacturing interests. nest:, he believed to be the leading causes of the present unhapry state of the courtry, and he thontit t.e subject loudly called for Parliamentary investigation. He trusted his Noble Friei.d, or some other Peer who left with him, would come forward and move for a Corn tnittee, to inquire into the causes of the present satiation of an important part of 'the country. The Exchequer Bills Bills were read a third time and passed. ROYAL HousEHoLb BILL. On the Order of the Day for the second reading of this Bill being moved 7— E.irl Ltyntroor, said, he understood it would be a matter of convenience to many Noble Lords v. ho wera not disposed to oppose the second reading of the Bill, that the discussion of its merits may be deferred to some subsequent stage. He was, how ever, ready now to state the general grounds and prv , :* *GI upon which the measure proceeded, were any iNOWC Lord desirous of it, but it that were not t!. easel, he should, on the present occasion, con tent li..uself with moving, that the Bill be now read asecond time. The Bill was accordingly read a second time ; and together with the Household Officers Bill, (which went through a similar stage forthwith), committed For Thursday. The House then adjourned, pro forma, until to. nr,,rvirainry to thoir I divine service in Westminster Abbey; but, for the transaction of business, until Tnursday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. L: TUESDAY, FEB. 4. The Deputy Usher of the Black Rod summoned the House to the House of Peers, to hear ihe Royal Assent given by Commission to several Public Bills, for which see Lords. Mr. FREEMANTLE postponed his Motion for In quiry into the Expenditure of the Civil List, The Regency Expences Billl was read a third time and passed. Mr. RYDER moved for the revival of the Commit tee on Penitentiary Houses. After some discussion between Mr. Ryder, Sir S. Romilly, and Mr. Long, the motion was withdrawn, with an understanding that it should be. renewed on Friday next. A message from the Lords stated their Lordship's agreethent to the two Exchequer Bills Bills, and the Distillery Bill. Mr. CROKER brought in a Bill to Prevent the Embezzlement of Naval Stores in Ireland. It was read a first time, and ordered for a second reading on Thursday next. Mr. WHITBREAD postponed his motion re specting America, from Thursday to Thursday se'n night. Sir T. BARING Wished to know -whether Minis ters had received any information concerning the buildings at Marybone Park, and whether they were concluded in conformity with the plan ar ranged ? , The CHANCELLOR; of the EXCHEQUER said that the works were going on according to the plan, but he had no information to lay before Parliament on the subje6t. The Second reading of the Officers Reversion Bill was postponed to Friday next. STATE OF IRELkND-ADIOURNED DEI3ATE. The Order of the Day being read for resuming the Adjourned Debate on the State of Ireland, : 4 -, Sir JOHN NEWPORT apologised to the House - for trespassing upon their attention at that early period ; a trespass which he certainly should not have corn. mated, but that he was prevented by ill health from delaying any longer. He should not even have come down to the House on the present occasion, if he did not find it necessary to defend his conduct against some charges brought against him in his ab sence. He had said, and would still maintain, that a proclamation was not law.; it was only a state ment of what the law was, and if it did not state it truly, the people were at liberty to dispute its au thority. He had always held up to the Roman Ca tholics, that body which he considered as so greatly aggrieved, that it was in that House they were seek redress, arid it never should be induced to turn. them away from its doors. There were agitators in former times, who had done so; and, he was sorry to add, that in more recent instances, the Govern ment itself had become agitators, and again attempted to turn them away. He submitted to the House what an effect must be produced by such conduct towards so large a portion of the population of that king dom. It was always his endeavour to keep their eye as much as possible on that House, and that upon a plain principle, that though their claims might be refused in one instance, yet as bodies grew wiser every day, and the most rooted opinions were liable to change in time, that one instance should not be considered as final. A Right Hon. Gentleman had asked on a former night, why he did not attend the Privy Council in Ireland ? The reason was, that he was so far removed from Dub lin as not to receive the summons in time; if he had received it, he' would have gone and protested against the mischievous insanity of their proceed ings. As to the opinions of the Judges, which were cited in defence of Government, there were such things as contradictions to the decisions of in ferior courts, by the dernier resort; and as to those of the Law Officers, there were two contrary opi nions of the Attorney •General on the table of the House, which did nor afford a very favourable spe cimen of their accuracy. He deprecated the prac tice of selecting detached paragraphs as proof of the tendency of works, and thought it rather too much to expect that those who suffered under injuries should possess all the temper and suavity of men who were fattening in office. He then related, a case of a Catholic wicow, who died in Waterford, and bequeathed a great part of her property to the poor of that City, without any dislinctiOn of reli gion, but whose good intentions in that respect were defeated by the Commissioners of Bequests, by whose authority the will was set aside. On looking to the statute law for an interpretation of the Convention Act, he found nothing like a law to prevent meetings for the purpose of petitioning; he found indeed the word pretence, but that word was to be taken in its common acceptation. He deprecated strongly the ides of driving the Catho lics to petition by general assemblies, not by dele gation, and concluded with exhorting the House to exercise its wisdom and temper on this great, -mo mentous, and important subject. Mr. CHARLES ADAMS thought the question might be divided into two parts ; the one political, the other religious. With respect to tire political part, it had been stated, that in case of the passing of the measure, one half of tire Members 'might be Roman Catholics; but though it was possible the proportion might be still greater, he apprehended that it was the greatest injustice to give any immu nities to them without an intention at some future period to give all. On the religious part of the subject he thought the Roman Catholic doctrines were inadmissible ; but he was happy to say, that though he had come down to the House strongly prepossessed against the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentleman, (Mr. W. Pole), his opinion was entirely altered in that respect, and he agreed, that he had only done his duty. He complimented the elo- ' quence of Mr. Canning on the preceding night, though he could uot agree in many of the seoti merits ; it was— " Satis eloquentioe—parum sapientix." Satisfied as he is with the defence which was-made for the Iri sh Government, he should vote against the motion. Mr. \V. FITZGERALD said, that the vote which be should give against the motion of the Noble Luid was not grounded on the arguments urged against it by the Gentlemen who'had already delivered their sentiments. Ar the same time he agreed fully, that dining the ne.ndino judicial nrcireertir - i - os_ they should not go into a Committee. An Hononrab7e and and Learned Gentleman who spoke last nieht, had declared, that ti,e present vas a favourable opoortu nitl for so doing; from that judgment he cti&red. His opinions were now, as formerly, fnourahle to the Catholic claims, which iltt thou` ht must at some time be acceded, Out never witeoet securities. It had been stated in another place, that we should surrender at discretion ; but to such lan guage he must object, as unt - K,ceniin,e whether u , ed by an advocate of the Catholics or not. thortelit he might be justified in opposiug ti.e motion from the manner in which it was supported. Wit!) re sped to the Right Honourable Baronet's arguments against shutting the doors upon the Cie hones, no one could deny that he was right, and he reig-): have spared himself the trouble of drei;ing so long upon what no one would have contradicted. lie then entered into a defence of the Irish Govet tit - nem, which, he maintained, had pursued legitimate cj jects by legitimate means. No-one could think this decision final;. indeed, if it was to 'be final, his Lordship seould hare his vote. The question Wa whether, after the proceedings of last year sanci oned by that House, and the .silence of the lion. Gentleman opposite, afer the trials of Dr. She idan and Mr. Kirwan, and after the declai a ion of the Judges of the Court of King's B,..nch, the Irish Go tnent had or had riot acted in centormiv with the law ? He adverted to the observations which had been made on the conduct of the Loid Chief ;.,Justice of the King's Bench in Ireland, whom he declared to be as venerable an individual and of as high and unimpeached a character as the highest of those who .had dared to arraign him. With re spect to the Attorney and Solicitor-General of Ire land, even the most factious writers had not dared to impeach the. purity of their principles ; but they certainly bad nut been treated in that House with the respect which was their due. In particular, of the character and talents of Mr. Bushe, every Irish man was justly proud, and he (Mr. Fitzgteald) would not hear any imputation upon that Gentle man, without bearing his testimony to its falsehood. He contended, that the Convention in Dublin was , illegal, and might become dangerous. It might tend to the dissolution of that Union, of which he would say, that although there were some ho nourable men who opposed it, and some honour able men who lamented that it had ever taken place, yet that there were very few wise men, in his opi nion, who would propose its repeal. It had been urged, that Lord Fingal was not a man who would countenance any thing which he thought dangerous to the State. Of this truth he was firmly per suaded ; but a reference to all history would show that the honourable men in whom revolutions of every kind originated, had seldom been enabled to preserve their legitimate influence during their progresS. The horrors of the French Revolution were produced by the erring virtues of men who, iu the first instance, lent themselves to the plans of reformers,' and who were subsequently unable to stem the torrent in which they unexpeledly found themselves involved. The violence shewn by the Catholics, both in their conduct and in their writ ings, bd been such as even to alarm many who had pledged themselves to the support of their claims. He should give the motion his decided ne gative._ Sir J. SERRIGHT, while he professed himself a friend to Catholic emancipation under such condi tions as those who were much better judges of the subjel than himself might deem it necessary to impose, was firmly persuaded, that had the Irish Government acted in any other way than that in which they had done, they would have been guilty of a gross dereliaion of duty. The state- ' ment made last night by the Right Hon. Gentle man opposite (Mr. Pole), had satisfied him that the condua of the Irish Golrernment had been re-- markably temperate and forbearing. That of the Catholics, on the contrary, seemed to him to haVe been very reprehensible. They had assumed a high tone, and a menacing posture,, very ill befitting them, and had organised a system which, in His opinion,was replete with danger to the community. Mr. C. WYNNE could not conceive how it was possible that any man who agreed in the main fact, that the State of Ireland was such as to require the consideration of Parliament, could resist the motion of his Noble Friend, to whatever cause he might impute the existence of that state. He entered into detail of the proceedings of the Irish Government, which, in his opinion, were highly culpable, and particularly condemned as insulting the use of the word Condescension,' in the communication from the Lord Lieutenant to Lord Fingal. Adverting to the conviction of Mr. Kirwan, he observed that he would not arraign the conduct of the Judges, but it was possible that the case might be. differently de cided by that higher tribunal, before which he he lieved, and hoped to God it would be brought. The Construction of the Convention Act was most forced. It might be applied, with equal justice, to every one who heard him, and who had been appointed as a delegate, to consider the propriety of making a road or a canal. • The sentiments of the people of this country were very much changed on the subject.— He appealed to ell who mixed in society, whether it was not the general opinion that attention ought to be paid to the claims of the Catholics; under certain securities, the nature of which would be the proper subject of consideration in the Committee, for which he should feel it his bounden duty to vote. Mr. MANNERS-SUTTON, in . 2 very eloquent and argumentative speech, opposed the motion, as. far from calculated to tranquilize. the existing agitation in Ireland. He strongly reptobated the obseiva tion made last night by a Learned Gentleman (Sir A. Pigott), that it was some consolation, under the afliding circtunstances in which his Majesty was placed, that at least a bar had been removed to the consideration of the interests of helard ; thereby dearly implying, that the interests of Ireland had not been attended to by his Majesty, than which a more unfounded statement could not well hwe been made, as must be manifest to; ail who recol lented how many privileges had been'grented to the Catholics of that country du•ing the present reign. In refusing to accede, at the present moment, to the claims of the Catholics, he chstinetly disclaimed (what had been ascribed to other Honourable Gen tlemen who were of his opinion), imputing to them that they were traitors to their King and enemies to their country. Nor did he impute to the Catholics (as their advocates had so injudiciously done, that they were disposed to wrest that by force whicti cufntion to be, ill hi; orin;on, on , - or x. rather than of —;1 jo , oic , to C he one side, and of securi.) , to he t •`1 ments of . Chun ii St,!e on the other. not ' , Tree to 0 - I-Int 'he cltholics tuj i ., • 6 0 . kvitlLm_c ar,y acct without g . k.it , r y rkdg , . on the sln.jvc-:,-hf.f. , re,i.Jrk that no ;. , ,f had b , 2on yct p , iptt:d out as the prorei oi:e It ix'‘v; It - 1-,tyit!eci that SOMe.provisiou of that nator,-.!huht b:-.4...tlicited by the coilisio" of cp,.,.!tis in a Cotmoitt.ee ; but as hs: couceivcd such a p•o , cerchag was Caletildk'd to wlitate rather than to Ira' ctuli~e, I ta nit....LA oppose it. fie rust a •,-) np, p se he motion for a Cokr:rnit tee, as 'hat inqtioll was :',oll,t2L'Acii with a conduct t G, , vetaurnt in .Lelind; for, he btli;:iNed that a Go= veronlent wow triodetatt, and (- sc),?;e. pot-;!jae 't r' that con ,, try. delci.ded•the co:y.luct of fi Nui)le oear of his (Lord Cliatt celtor Manne: - s) wnich 'ha? 'oven so unjustly tacked. Vinhout presuming to possess as much le• gal r knowledg-.1 as fte tion. ani Learned tie„tico •:1 who had last night s: , okoti, he il , :fer-n . ,d !..irus7:.i sa tisfied with the unanimous opiniz), ,:t the Cowl of King's Bench i1)11 - c:aP(1, strui-lion of Convention Act. .1! COn. . ~ii,'}r was Lot coat cot wi h that o,)hiion, l e 1n) ej to God with the Hon. and I.,ned Gen t %.% just spoken, that the case would come to d:;72ier resort of adjudication. There was Irtt one other question to consider, that of titan. He could !..nrd ly conceive a w'OISC time•for :t conces- ion 50,.! as ihat proposed than the presen. Oi this the sr,te Ireland was sufficient evidence. The fueling i of the Catholics themselves, man:fsted in the post ponement of their petition to Parliament, was an ad ditional proof of the fait. To their authority he bowed, and he would say in concurrence with' them; that the prese n t ti me was most et lit. _ _ Mr. PARNELL. warmly supported the motion of his Noble Friend. The Catholics were entitled to their rights, unless it could be shown that tte - grant ing of those rights would ilvolve in danger the. general interests of the country. They oniy claim ed that, an abstinence frojn claiming which would, in his opinion, render them unworthy the name of British subjeqs. He commented with some seve-- rity on the speech of the Right Honourable Secre tary for Ireland. It was made up of Newspaper statements from the beginning to the end, and be thought it a great hardship that the whole of the Catholics should be condemned on such evidence: He contended they had been greatly misrepresented, and entered into a general history of their conduat,. which he strenuously defended, on the ground that no other course had been left open to them but that which they had endetivoured to pursue. The Right Hon. Secretary had accused the Catholics of a wil ful violation of the law ; now. what, , ver might be the Right Hon. Gentleman's opinion as to What the law was, he might conceive h possible for tha• Catholics to put a different construction en it. He; however, appeared to have no feeling of this sort; and in no respell did it seem that he had thken proper view of the subica which he ought to have taken, in the discharge of his duty. 1 - I,e_; the Catho lic Committee been ecrtnitted to meet, he believed . that the business for which they pro i .ersed to a s * wmble would have been completed in one or IW O short sittings. He was of opinien (het they wer ° sincerely disposed to ad in such a manner as t ° guard against any such refleaions being thrown two their proceedings, as had previously been throAvo upon the Catholic Committee. For these, and a variety of other reasons, it was his intention to vot° for the motion. Lord CASTLEREAGH, in looking to that question which it was understood would be •particularly th e subject of discussion in the Committee, if the House consented to go into it, did not materially differ h l =principle from the Noble Lord who tad brougll the subject forward, thou g h he disti nc tly deified that any pledge had - been given at the Union tha c an alteration should take place. It had merely bceu' 'held out that the question might, at some futu re period, be entertained, with a prospect of the d" - abilities complained of being removed, if such a ll arrangement could be made as would be at once i satisfactory to the Cathol ics an d t h e P ro t es t a nts, consistent with the public secatily. He wislw' the Noble Lord to consider the ditliculti s which 3 1. tended the question. These, it had been their 0 1 ' 5- fortune, and that of the Catholics, had never het'l l fairly stated to the House. Nothing could be (1) 01 ' 3 ' likely to be productive of evil, nothing more fatal the interests of the country, nothing more lii,elyt tr . disqualify us - from carrying. on the strw4,l6.. in which we were engaged, and nothing more like' ly to run down the Parliament of thigkrici in the timation of that irnpoitaut feature of the strength the country—the Catholic population.—Noihi n v could be more injurious to the cause in every re sped than the indefinite manner in which the su b* jeCi was brought before Parliament year after y e ?,, e Gentlemen who wer e f r i en dly to th e Cat.ll°.' d Emancipation ought t o f a th om th e difficultie s which the subject was immersed, in order to f lat certain what might be overcome (and by memo), and what were insuperable. Let ti 1 who brought it forward look ht the questioh, " t o endeavour to so ip it of some of thtoe, for as ye had never been pot at issu:-. in that House h r te manner cfeciltah:e to themselves or others. He nictit to throw no ciNresreettul rert` - e , tion on Cot. CattioJcs, but their warmth had so ll' e d times Rarcohted their understanding to be cam; away by filch - passions ; but after all had been of the necessity of conceding what they reciuti lest ultimately it should be forced from them. 6- e , forbid that he should enh.rtain an idea that l i r ' c e ever have recourse to any measure to 161 6 . 4 0 Parliament to attend to them, other than 111 ; ., which they could legally and constitutionally e lt- v i, cise ; or that he should enterian an idea, that -14' 4 ever severe their disappointment, they would /1 6 ‘ .0 bow to its decision. He had no inFidious pu ll" ; io noticing the difficulties which he thought orP " ,d . ed themselves to th e wishes of the Catholics, `' t i t he thought the Hon. G en tl eman w h o h a d th'`,):l4 out a hint, that in the CO , JTSCOf the Session he bring the q.!estiou more before the 11° . wc'tld not think It woong that the attention o f [Luse shomd he called to the difficulties afro' ' l d. it, in order that it 'night . en how tat theY C° he got over. He sooold p c ,f.aps best abl e ti ;e make his sentiments d, by referring w several classes of opinions whit h he believed (c),,,,0,1