The Sun. — London, England, 1837-02-07 00:00:00

......-------___ ------ -of the short-hand writer in the execution of his duty ; and from the Committee. He particularly regretted the orals , if in the execution of that duty it should be found Sion of that part of the former Bill which related to the cessio li .: . - that he was inefficient, then the Committee would have bonorum. ht. , :rn. the Tower to .appoint another person.—(Hear.) This Mr. was PEMBERTON anxious to asce r tai n f rom hi s - loos • might load to some d e l a y i n th e p rocee di ngs o f t h e C orn- Majesty's Minist e r s whether it was their intention this S ess i on alersi i mittee, but h tointroduce any measur e f or th e i mprovement o f t h e admirtis e felt convinced that the r esu lt wou ld be, that tration of justi ce i n th e C ourt o f Ch ancery and other supreme the proceedi ngs o f th e C omm itt ee wou ld not on l y b e con- courts.—( Hear, hear, hear.) In the last Session a 811 l had i; 1 , !, . ducted with greater deliberation, but in a much more satis- been introduced into the other house on this important subject, `3:l • factory manner. He apprehended, therefore, that the the utter inadequacy of which to its purpose was such that no gtC.. , ;House would do well to revise its opinion on this subject. one in the law or out of it regretted that it was not carried. —(Hear, hear.) Th e ev il s which then existed were now incr ease d t o a veto 00,.. • ORDERS OF THE DAY. great extent.—( H ear , h ear. ) T wo years ago the arrears in the ed. 0.,. Lord J. RUSSELL rose t o m ove th a t O r d ers o f t h e Court of Chancery amounted to riot fewer than between Day take preceden ce , f or th e rest o f th e sess i on , o f not i ces o f SOO and 400 cases ; t h e arrears now amounted to betwpen 800 and 900, (h ear , h ear .) ; an d t i n , very heavy and multifarious t . law , -.motion, on. Mondays, Tuesdays, and Tit ursdays. He would lld no , en d eavour , if poss ibl e , to g i ve no! i ce o f those Orders of duties imposed on th e L or d Ch ance ll or were such that there > `u;•was no chance but th a t th e arrears wou ld st ill go on increasing. . -the Day which were i n t en d e d by G overnmen t to ( Hear.) Moreover, there was the Privy Council totally satae< be . brought forward. It would, . he thought be altering its arangernents, to the extreme inconvenience of all sag;,, ; very d e sirabl e t o s ave ti me , if it were known parties concerned. In reference to the present measure, he ~ : a • that any discussion was likely to take place on the was extremely glad to hear that his Hon. and Learned Friend -deo - Orders of the Day. It often happened that O r d ers b a d i t i n contemplation to impose some new duties on the Jon -; ,of the Day were read at twelve o'clock, and Judges of the Court of Review, for, certainly, no body of "op: a i discussion thus without intention prevented. Thi s wou ld men were ever more in want o f somet hi ng to d o. ?s , .be prevented if it were known beforehand what O r d ers The ATTORNEY-GENERAL sa id t h e G overnment of the Day were most likely to create a di scuss i on .fullyby was sensible of the evil s s t a t e d the Hon. and Le arne d The motion was then put and agreed to. "'. Gentleman, and the questio n was under their serious conside ration, and it was th e i r i n t ent i on e i t h er t hi s or next Session IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT BILL. - to bring the whol e su bj ec t b e f ore t hi s or t h e other House. . The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that in ri s ing to There was no doubt that, from increased population and in introduce a Bill to abolish imprisonment for debt, creased wealth, the present judicial establishment was inade be did not intend to occupy the attention of the House a t quate to the wants of the community. While the population great length, for the measure had been frequently discussed, of the country had increased sixfold and the wealth twenty i•oo.: -. and he apprehended that the House had given its Odd, the judicial establishment had remained almost sta tionary,. and the consequence amounted to a violation of that = ' opinion explicitly in favour of the abolition of impri reat charter, which promised the people of this country that sonment for debt, except in cases of fraud.—(Hear, " "justice should be sold, should be denied, should be delayed hear.) The present measure, however, differed in to no one_" and respects from that of the former session, Leave was thengiven to bring in the Bill. and that difference was of such a nature a s w ou ld, l ie was MESS g AGE FROM THE KING. - • sure, induce the Honourable Member f o r Knaresborough ' Lord J. RUSSELL reported to the House that his Ma ,.ii .. .to rise anti second his motion,—(hear, hear,)--for lie had jesty, having received the address of the House of Commons, was entirely discarded that portion of the former had given the following gracious reply :—.° I have received •Thseei Bill.• Which that Hon. Member had so anxiously opposed, with satisfaction your loyal and dutiful address, and I rely with especially what he had urged regarding speedy judgments, I confidence I a have con your y ur consideration of th e su bj ec t s to m o a u t r ed attention. It shall be m y en d eavour , oil ! ' bills of 'exchange, and book d e bt s . (C r i es o f which •eo , . Hear, hear.") He considered that that c l a u se o f th e by the blessing of Di v i ne P rov id ence , to preserve the peace of " " 4 'F . last Bill could be dispensed with on account of th e improve-. Europe, to maintain th e h onour o f my C rown, and the happi. - i:' • meet which had taken place in the prog r e s s o f causes ness of my peopIe. " BETTER REGISTRATION OF VOTERS. which had been accelerated, and justice had been thus so The ATTORNEY-GENERAL 'io el.: , expedited, and could be procured so much more economically jest to confine the Bill strictly to the purpose stated in the than before, that he agreed th a t th a t sec ti o n of the Bill preamble —to make it strictly a registration bill. One of his h'itoat - should be left out. There was likewise another part objects wee to restrict the number of assistant-barristers to a ' • of the former Bill, of which 'he had also got rid ;he alluded certain limited number, who should entirely devote themselves 7 - ..e. to the cessio bonorom clause, which he considered should to the office; that instead of having 175 judges to decide on `if.' • form the subject of a separate Bill.—(Hear, hear.) questions of the franchise, th ere s h ou ld b e a permanent court, consisting of eight or ten j u d ges . H" a l so proposed that the ao ' A third portion of the former Bill now omitted was th e I'd penal clauses. The great and sole objects of the third question p u t t o e l ec t ors s h ou ld b e om i tted, and that the '. register should b e t a k en as conc l us i ve ev id ence of the exis li • . Bill was to give a direct and immediate remedy a ga i ns t tense of qualification d ur i ng t h e year f or w hi c h the party l'• . the property of the debtor, and take away the improper re- claimed. 100 • medy which the creditor had now against the person of the Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. debtor. It had been stated by the late Sir S. Romilly, and by Mr. MA CLEAN begged to ask who was to have the ap -- all who had considered this subject, that the law pointment of the proposed judges"? • of England was in a most lamentable condition The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that in pursuance of with respect to the remedy the creditor had a suggestion made last year the names of the proposed judges -' - in recovering his debt. He had no direct remedy against would be stated in the Bill. ' a great part of the property that belonged to Isis debtor. JOINT-STOCit BANKS. • - It would be better th a t th e cre dit or h a d a reme d y aga i nst The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, i n r i s i ng •.. the freehold, the funded, an d o th er proper t y - o f hi s d e bt or , to move the renewal of th e C omm i ttee on J o i nt -S tock Banks, than to have the power of seizin g hi s p erso n. The first said it would be in the r eco ll ec ti on o f t h e H ouse t h at l ast Ses- Sion, on the motion of his Hon. Friend behind him, the i s le p - - great object he had in view was to enable the Sheriff, in cases her for the Tower Hamlets, a Select Committee was ap . where judgment had been given,, to seize money, bills, book pointed to consider the state of the law in relation to . debts, and likewise copyhold and freehold estates, as'well as Stock Banks. That Committee was generally assented to, Joint other descriptions of property. This latter proceeding he pro_ Stock although on the part of the Hon. Member for Middlesex posed should be effected in all cases after judgment had been sued out twelve months, and the debt had not in the' mean ' there appeared a, disposition to ext e nd it s i nqu i r i es f urt h er t h an - was contemplated by the Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets, time been satisfied ; giving them in cases where judgment had ; there was evinced no desire to resist the inquiry itself. The been entered up this remedy against the property and estate of the debtor, he proposed that henceforward there should be no Committee, which w as a pp o i nte d in May, proceed e d t o app l y it - e great industry t o th e po i nts re f erred to it by the self with power to s e ize or detain the person of a debtor either before or House. It sat till the clos e o f th e S ess i on, and examined vast after judgment. If they got at the property, it was not proper numbers of witnesses, on w h ose t est i mony i t was no part o f his that the person of the debtor should b e li a bl e t o se i zure ; he present business to comment ; b u t th e w h o l e o f i t was b e f ore therefore proposed, except in cases of • f rau d, arres t s h ou ld be the House. It then became a question with the Committee • ..got rid of. At present there were not less than 14,000 persons whether it would be wise or prudent to legislate at that period. .., in gaol for debt, and upwards of three-fourths of them had no The subject was fully considered by the Committee, and the property whatever wherewith to satisfy the demands . of their advantages and disadvantages of immediately legislating occu creditors. It was proper that these persons should be discharged pied their attention during two days' delikration. The opi- Out of prison, provided they had not been guilty of fraudulent conduct,. and that they should thus be enabled to sup_ nion of th e Committee on th e p o i n t was state d i n the Report, to the effect that th ey saw so many difficulties in the way of port themselves and their families by their honest ex er - lions. He did not repose to allow imprisonm en t i n any immediate l eg i s l at i on , an d so many o b jections to imperfect •• p legislation, that they preferred recommending that the Corn ' ' but cases of fraud. In all such cases he proposed that the mittee should be revived i n th e course o f the present Session, . . • judge sh ou ld have authority to order th e d e b tor t o b e com- and that in the meanwhile their report should be circulated in . onitted to prison. Also in cases where there was evidence that the country. It was in obedience to that recommendation the debtor was about to leave the country, and to absent him- that he now begged to propose the revival of that Committee. self from his creditors, the same process would be followed He trusted that those Gentlemen whose co-operation he had as at present to secure the person of the debtor. After benefited by in the Committee, that those gentlemen who had judgment the debtor must either pay the debt and satisfy hiis acquiesced in the appointment of that Committee, had. since creditor, Or give such an account of his property . that it could the 12th of May seen no circumstance which could operate he taken possession of for the purpose of division amongst his in inducing th em to w i t hh o ld t h e i r support from him on creditors. If the debtor refused to a nswer , or did not g i ve an the present o ccas i on . H e truste d t h at the experience which honest account of his property, he sh ou ld a l so b e li a bl e to corn- they had had in the inter va l between the close of the last mittal to prison. By commitment lie did not mean that a per- Session and the present p er i o d was not such as to indis- Son should be allowed to live in a handsome house like a pa- pose them from at least renewing the Committee. As the • lace, within the rules of the prison, where he could enjoy proposition he was about to make was for the continuation of every luxury and laugh at his creditors ; but that a debtor thus the committee, it would be highly inexpedient on his part to remanded should be confined within the walls of the prison, presume any anticipation of what might be the opinion of the • salva et arcta custodia. There was another point in which this Committee on the subject, but he should be greatly miscon- Bill differed from the former measures on this subject. It was ceived if it were considered that his motion was one made in ~ strongly objected to the former measures that to bring them into op era ti on it was necessary to create a great nu m b er o f new hostility to the pri nc ipl e o f j o i nt - stoc k b an k s, or the established system. It was well und ers t oo d t h at t h e A ct 2 G eo. IV. was jadges, a nd that thus great patronage would ac crue t o t h e Crown or the Government. He had always been of opinion rather considered, w h en i t was passe d , as an exper i ment, and it wasebviously nec essar y th a t t i me s h ou ld e l apse b efore it that the creation of a great number of new offices was, a gr ea t impediment to the progress •of law reform. They were told would be possible t o f orm a d e lib erate op i n i on on the subject. • Now, however, a grea t many f acts were b efore them which • that th e i r o n ly o bj ec t w as to give to the Crown or the Execu- would enable them to judge whether the practice under the • five the patronage of many new places, and not to pro- Act in question, and the Act itself, required amendment. The mote the public good or improve the a'dministration of the very large majority of the witnesses examined on the part of law, if, however, they proposed to give the patronage of these the banks, while maintaining the decided usefulness of aes to - the Lord-Lieutenants and custodes rotuloranz of understood system of joint- stock banking, united in the opinion well counties, or t o t h e Magistrates a t Quarter Sessions, they mig h t that the" law required amendment, for the protection of the justly be told that they gave the power of appointment to ju- banks themselves, of the people, and for the general protection dicial offices to those who were irresponsible. He was now of the credit and currency of the country. (Hear, hear.) It happy i n being able to inform the house that there was now had been suggested that the C o mmitt ee s h ou ld ex t en d th e no such necessity for the extension of patronage. H e f oun d range of its inquiries—( Hear, hear); but he would appeal that the Court of Review could be made available round the from the gentlemen who cheered to thegentlemen on both metropolis with a radius of forty miles. He proposed th a t th e g sides of the House who h a d b een on t h e C omm i ttee, - Court of R ev i ew s h ou ld h ave p o wer to appoint Commissioners and ask them whether th e su bj ects b e f ore t h em h a d to inqui re i n t o th e proper t y o f t h e d e bt or . U n d er th ese sir- not been in th emse l ves su ffi c i ent l y complicated and eumstances there wo u ld b e no grea t i n c r ease to the judi c i a l establishment difficult without emba rrass i ng t h emse l ves w i t h new and still o f t hi s country, an d t h e propose d c h ange wou ld b attended with li tt l e expense. From the R eport o f t h e more intricate and deli ca t e su bj ects f ur consideration ?—( Hear,hear.) It was out o f th e quest i on to requ i re the Committee Commissioners on thi s su bj ect, i t appeare d t h at t h e annual to emba r k u p on th e w h o l e quest i on of the currency, or the re amount of the fe es f or g i v i ng bail amounted to 300,0001. This newel of th e B an k o f E ng l an d C harter in connection with trouble the House with goi ng at greater fen would be altogether g o t r id o f b y t hi s Bill. He would not . , joint-stock b an k s . H e did not mean to say that it would have • gth into an ex la_ ben possible to carry on the investigation before the Corn nation of the details of the measure, as there would be many , mittee without looking into the effect of the Bank of England opportunities of doing so on future occasions. The Hon. and circulation in relati o n t o these banks; this sort of incidental Learned Gentleman concluded with mov i ng f or leave to bring inquiry was indispensable to the development of the subject; in a Bill to extend the ,remedy of creditors against the pro- but to open the whole quest i on o f t h e currency and the Bank an cases of fraud. ° perty of debtors, and to abolish imprisonment f or debt, except charter in that Commit tee on l y ten d e d i n a very great degree Mr. RICHARDS wished to explain his reas ons f or o to embarrass its proceeding s .—( H ear, hear.) The House - ' ppos- would recollect that in th e l as t S ess i on his language on this ing th e measure o f t h e f o rmer Sessions. I t erected an enor- subject had been at all times that of caution and warning ; Aleut. patronage ; and was, in short, nothing less than a bill of that he had said nothing in any part of the discussions of Peins.and penalties against unfortunate creditors, and he could last year that in the least degree tended to give an exag tiot help feeling that the object for which it was drawn up was gerated hope of national prosperity or increased enterprise; to pull down and ruin the landed aristocracy, and to keep his indeed, an Hon. Member had almost reproved him for his Majesty's present Government in their places. In the language extreme caution in this respect. But, at the same time, the •of Mo.Cobbett, he would say, " Thank God, there is a House language of caution need not be the language of despair, and of tords ;" for it was that House which at once saw that under he was as little disposed to speak despairingly now as then- the allegation of its beinea a Bill to relieve the trading classes, but in the same spirit of caution he would now entreat Hoand to improve the law of debtor and creditor, it was nothing nourable Members who might be disposed to extend the More nor less than a mode of increasing the patronage of circl e of the Committee's inquiries to beware lest they thus Ministers. He trusted the House would not allow this Bill to Pass w ith out g i v i ng a ll i ts d eta i ls the c l osest exam i na ti on . inflicted a p ermanent i n j ury on t h e b est i nterests of the country. — (hear')—He sh ou ld reserve to hi mse lf t h e f u ll power of Mr MA CLE AN sa id t h ere was one f eature i n the last Bill, addressing himself to the subject of any amendment which might which, if retained in the Present, required to be watched with b e ma d e upon his motion. It was his intention to propose i great j ea l ousy : h e a ll uded to the summary power it - gave crc- the extension of the inquiry of the committee to lieland._ < ditors to incarcerate their debtors, by making an affidavit that S evera l c i rcumstances in connection with the circulating me they b e li eve d t h e d e b tor was about to abscond. .....( Hear, hear.) dium in that country which had taken place in the course of This was openin p e the way, i n numb er l ess cases, to an entire the last six months had been such as greatly to excite public departure from the stated principle o f the Bill, "the abo i l l i c ti a o r n , t a i t e t rn er e it n io m n rg ( Hear.) Whatever amendments Honourable Gen .(of imprisonment for debt, except in cases of fraud."—( ht be disposed to move to extend the inquiry, with near.) There was another feature in the Bill of last year a view to improve the law respecting banking, he begged to which he h a d a s t rong o bj ect i on to, namely, the power g i ven say he was himself prepared to extend it to • Ireland ; and in tt creditors t o b rea k into th e h ouse of any ind i v i dua l w h om or d er ' to give the Committee the assistance of some Irish ‘ t ueO might represent as haying possessiOn of the debtor's pro- Members in the course of its deliberations, lie propos e d t o a dd p e rt He trusted the House would give this measure the to the Com m i ttee o f l ast S ess i on four Irish representatives; Most mature consideration. two taken from one side and two from the other side of the Mr. POTTER expressed his approbation of the measure, House.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—lt was . perhaps absurd in him 'which he was c onv i nce d wou ld b e p er f ect l y sat i sfactory to the to t a lk o f t h e two s i des of the house in relation to a subject trading classes, of this nature; for he was bound to say that in the inquiry Mr. MART was surprised to hear the Hon. and Learned of last year all party feeling was completely lost sight of, as it Member for Knaresborough talk about this Bill tending to surely ought to be in a question in which were involved inte undermine the landed aristocracy. What the Bill proposed rests of such immense magnitude as the banking interests of W aSt to make the landed gentry pay their d e bt s as well as t hi s country-_( Hear)—interests on which the commercial cre other peopl e ; and th i s was what ought to h ave been done dit of the country was entirely dependent. When such into loi . • g ego..--( Hear, hear.) He was also extremely astonished rests were at stake, all might be satisfied that no party feel at the manne r in which the H onoura ble Member had taken inks or differences would be allowed to interfere with the due Upon himself to charge the excellent an d Honourable Gentle_ exercise of the best judomeut which each individual member Ulan wh o had drawn up the former Bill with " knavish tricks." of the Committee could bring to bear on the subject.—( Hear, • Mr. RICHARDS said he had not used such an expression : bear.) He should conclude with moving, in the terms of the What he said was, that th e Bill was k nav i s hl y d rawn up. mot i on o f l ast year, that a Select C omm i ttee be appointed, , Mr. EWART would give the Honourable and Learned Gen- to inquire into the operation of the Acts for promoting the es tieman all the benefit of his variation, and would ask whether tablishment of Joint-stock banks, under certain restrictions, the term " knavishly" did not neeessaril imply an animus ? in Great B r it a i n an d I re l an d, an d to d eterm i ne w h et h er i t Mr. RICHARD S made some observ y atiori, the purport of was expedient t o ma k e any a l terat i on i n th e p rov i s i ons o f Which was not co ll ected, and those Acts. • . Mr. EWART went on to say that this measure was impe- The SPEAKER having put the question, aatively called for as an act of justice to the p eo ple, and it Mr. H UME said the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that 'had stir sanctioned by no less authority than . Lord Eldon, who the Committee o f last y e ar was appointei . with no . hostile . view attoo natiee e t h e l aw of imprisonment for debt as barbs- towards joint-stock banks, and he was not disposed to say it was, roils. Thi s was team e d Member an authority which even the Honourable and but he believ e d t h e j o i nt - stoc k b an k s enterta i ne d a diff erent Mr.would bow to. opinion. No b an ki ng system could b e per f ectly safe unless bore eocoNNEt s t, h a d last year b een to l d that the mea- founded on the principle that bank-notes should be changeable juothen proposed could not well be extended to Ireland, by for gold on demand. That was the very essence of the seen ll of the n a t ure o f th e machinery which it was in con- rity which the commercial interests were entitled to. lunationUnfor vto adapt to it. From what he had now heard there tunately the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, in granting the no tillhemmost anxious extended to Ireland. If such were the case, he in which that essential principle was departed from. He took .7 4 0 . anxious that Ireland should be permitted to derive the sense of the House on the clause to which he eas refer= benefit of the proposed law, which appeared of to he . erni- ring. ; and in doing so told them that it was fraught with evil ; it _l'elltly,C a leUlated to effect the desirable result arriving at that sooner or later even those authorities of the Bank who 17:,Property of the debtor without incarcerating his person, recommended it to him would regret its being embodied in j a owever, any inconvenience were apprehended from mak- their Charter; that it would most certainly lead to such a sur, 'X this Bill applicable also to Ireland, he should not, press plus of paper, and consequently to such accommodation and : t all ua eL t point, but sh . ould, if no oth er person b ro ught forward speculatio n , as must eventually endanger tho credit a the country. This was the opinion he had expressed in the do - " a Measure introduce a similar Bill for Ireland. o h t l Y l ro ,HAWE'S warmly approved of the Bill, though he bates on the Bank Charter, and lie would stow proceed to vin dicate the course he tools lust Session when he proposed to ex. vr . qu nave greatly" preferred its being introduced as it came. THE SUN, LONDON, TIThSnAY, FF , I3IIUARY 7, 1437. tend the inquiry.—( Hear, hear.) He expected that his motion for the omission of the clause he had alluded to would have received some attention from the Committee. He was sorry, on reading the evidence, to find that not a single question was put to ascertain what was the effect of the paper of the Joint stock. Banks being made payable in the country in Bank of England notes. If such a question were put, the inquiry was certainly not pursued. He had no hesitation in saying he regretted now that his amendment was not carried, and also the manner in which the present inquiry was carried on. Ho agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman that this was a critical period—he agreed with him that mischief or good would result according as this inquia'y was proceeded with— but he must press for inquiry when he saw enactments on banking which he believed to be fraught with the sacrifice of millions of capital. He told Mr. Canning and Mr. Huskisson that they were mistaken as to the sources of the mischief when they were attributing the panic of 1825 to the country banks without any proof that it was so. He observed, on that occa sion, that the whole issue of the country banks could not pos sibly produce the least effect on the circulation. The House, lie would contend, legislated on wrong information ; and let any commercial man look back to the withdrawal of the cir culation, and say whether that had not been productive of the most serious and lamentable inconvenience. The Right Hon. Gentleman told them that an enquiry into the bank charter would be an incidental inquiry ; his proposition, however, was not to open the question of the bank charter, but only to inquire with a view to ascertain what had been the discretion exer cised by the Bank of England.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He knew no individuals more anxious than were some of the official gentlemen connected with the Bank of England to do justice and see the duties of their office efficiently per formed, yet he had no hesitation in also declaring that he did not think their proceedings had manifested a knowledge of the principles on which they ought to act, and, therefore, whatever changes had taken place in the currency in the last few years, had been owing to the management of the Bank of England, and not to that of the joint-stock banks.—( Hear, hear.) If he could make that out, he hoped the House would go with him in adopting his proposition, which was to extend the inquiry .to banks in general—(Hear, hear)—and to the causes of those changes in the currency which had occurred during the last two years. His object was to show what ought to be the principle of banking; to show what ought to,be the system here, and what had been the results from the system adopted here and elsewhere. The Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed that the Bank Charter should be the subject of an incidental inquiry ; he would have it the subject of their principal inquiry. He was prepared to show that if evils had resulted from a surplus currency, they were not produced by the joint stock banks, but by the Bank of England. If he should show that the evils of speculation had arisen, which had led to a sudden restriction of the currency-- if he should show that great changes had taken place, which had thrown ail artificial value of five, ten, or more per cent. on some particular commodities, and in a few months had de pressed them to an equal amount—if he should show that any thing had occurred which had interfered with the public credit, and placed it, though it had always heretofore been as high, below the credit of a neighbouring country—if he should show that the interest paid on Exchequer bills in England was higher than the interest paid on Exchequer bills in France, if he should show that till within the last twelve months the credit of England, as regarded Exchequer bills and the funds, was higher than that of France, whereas now it was deteriorated, if, he should show the existence of such a state of things, he would ask the House was not that a fit subject for inquiry ? The Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer said no thing had occurred since the last meeting of Parliament to interrupt the inquiry. Certainly nothing had occurred. His object was to urge inquiry, not to limit it. When he saw an attempt made to attribute an evil to Joint Stock Banks, of which they were comparatively innocent—he admitted they were not altogether so—he considered himself bound to en deavour to fix it on those whom lie considered the real offenders. He begged to divert the attention of the House to what must have attracted considerable notice'during the in quiry of the Committee of 1819 —ho referred to a portion of the evidence of Mr. Alexander Baring, who was considered one of the best authorities examined by the Committee. A question was asked of him, the object of which was to ascer tain whether greater changes in the currency had taken place in France or in England. Every body knew what changes had taken place in this country from 1797 till the period when the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir Robert Peel) intro duced his Currency Bill. He admitted that one of the greatest benefits which had been conferred on this country was that act of the Right Hon. Baronet by which he placed the currency on its present footing.—(Loud cheers.) Though the suffer ings were great through which we arrived at a sound principle, those sufferings could not be fairly attri buted to the measure of the Right Honourable Ba ronet, but were the result rather of the previous misgo vernment.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It appeared from the evi dence that there was a paper currency in France, but none below the value of 201.—[Some Hon. Gentlemen intimated their dissent from this statement]. He believed it would be found he had stated the value correctly. The circulation in France was essentially metallic. The paper was issued by the Bank, according to the demand, and it was never pushed, as it was in this country, for• the purpose of making a profit by the issues, or for the encouragement of speculation. It dis counted at all times at 4 per cent., and was a commercial bank. The reduction of the rate of interest by the Bank of England had been the cause of much of the evil of which we had to complain. The reduction of the rate of interest and the amount of surplus money possessed by the bank had in creased speculation. The Bank of England currency had been chiefly paper. Let any one draw his conclusion from the results of the system in France, as compared with the results of the system in this country—let him make that comparison, and reconcile his mind to our system if he could. France had stood the shock of two invasions—she had to pay immense sums to the allies in the course of a few years—she had to hear up against the importation of corn to an immense amount, in consequence of the failure of her corn crops—she also suf fered at another time from the failure of her wine crops, which were equally important to the industry of that country. Surely this would have been enough under other circum stances to have deranged her whole monetary system. —( Hear.) Notwithstanding, however, that she had had these large sums to pay, no such changes in her currency, no panics, had occurred in that country as had taken place in England over and over again. The Bank of England availed itself of its assets to derive profits, and in doing so occasioned that ex cess in the currency which led to a restriction, and, the re striction being suddenly felt, a panic took place. By such management as was seen in 1825, as well as at the present period, the whole commercial community was, as it were, paralyzed. These were periods of the utmost danger ; n o man knew what to do, and no man knew what might be the result. He was anxious that they should look, not to joint-stock banks under the idea that they had created the dif ficulty, but that they should inquire into the proceedings of the Bank of England, which he believed in his conscience had occasioned it. He would have them ask themselves how it was that a wealthy country like England should be in a tenfold degree subject to these violent changes, while France, while Holland, while every other country, except America, remained undisturbed ; and America had followed in a degree the steps of England, in consequence of the facllities which existed of her getting money from this country ; she had suffered, but from the information he had obiained from an American paper he had received this morning, he be lieved her sufferings were entirely at an end. He dated the commencement of the present panic from the period when the West India loan of fifteen millions was raised in this country, and it was with reference to that loan that lie comp:ained of the discretion whic:t had lmen exercised by the Bank. The Honourable Gentleman here went into an examination of the re turns of the issues of the Bank of England (rein June to December, and compared them with the returns of the issues of the joint-stock banks. He:complained that the .return, of the Bank of England was not a fair return, inasmuch as it was made up a week before the divi • (lends were paid, which added five millions to the amount of their is. sues. The Honourable Gentleman also referred to the sth and Gth of William IV., for the purpose of showing that it was intended the con traction of the loan and the payment of the Compensation money should be so carried into effect -as to cause as little disturbance as possi. ble in the currency of the countty, Within one week after the loan was concluded the Bank Directors issued a general notice that they would make advances on all securities, on stock, minium, and all good securities, at 31 per cent. This was a temptation to the holders of the loan, for they took their omninin at 3f discount, and went the next day to the Bank and got it discounted at 3 j per cent., thus poeketting per cent, on the whole operation. The effect was that the Bank ob. tallied ten or eleven millions of this money belonging to the public, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, being compelled to pay interest on the loan, was paying it while the money was lying at the Bank, by which two interests were paid. But that was not all, for there was thrown into the Bank a large surplus of money, which induced them to lend right and left, and no man . was refused. No bank ever had so much money in its possession as the returns showed the Bank to have at this period. They had twenty millions of de posits at ' one time.—(hear, hear, hear.) In March, 1835, the deposits had increased to mine millions.—(hear.) In June, to 11,000,0001:; in September, to 13,000,003/. ; and on the 26th of De. cember, to 20,000,0001. The Bank issued a notice that they were ready to discount, and they did so, the only limit being that they would not discount in sums of less than 2,000/. • Any man could go with his half a million of stock. Bankers taking shares of railroads and all kinds of securities went and disposed of bank stock, India sto.:k, arid three per cents., which they got discounted at 23l per cent., they dis counting for their customers at 5 per cent., thus eneout.iging specula tions with the public money. That led to the great excitement; and he now came to its application. Up to this period the Bank of England had an :inverse exchange, and this pointed out the necessity of with. drawing the money it had been sending out. The Hon: Gentleman then proceeded to argue from the returns of the issues of the Bank that at a period when their bullion was decreasing, instead of restricting the amount of their currency, they added to it, so that between the period when the loan was -contracted for and the 12th of January, they had no Las than 71,000,000/, excess of currency. The Bank began to exhibit their determination to restrict their issues by refusing heavy bills fro.n America, which they did from the month of August. Dis counts were subsequently gradually refused till commercial men found themselves unable to meet their liabilities and, engagements.— , (hear, hear.) Tire bankers, finding themselves screwed up, re fused to grant discounts to their countrymen, and this led to the general restriction which now ells:ed. Ile, therefore, complained of the conduct of the Bank of England, and be would say that the House would not he acting wisely i if it did not inquire into the facts to which he hail referred. He believed it would be found that the present state of things had arisen from an excess of currency, and not fawn any course that had been taken by joint-stock or other banks. The amount of the circulation of the joint stock banks ill June, 1835, Was I 0,500,0001:, say 11,000,000/. in round numbers. What had been their increase during the period of the greatest ex cess of discounts by the Bank of England ? The greatest excess of - the joint stock banks was 1,300,000/. ; it never exceeded. This, too, happened when the excess on the part of the Bank of England was 7,000,000/. Now, could any man in that House who knew any thing of commercial matters, and looked to the small increase made by the Pint atoek banks qnil private banks, declere tint to them 'Tea to be ascribed the difficulties that had been experietwco 2 a lie evil had nqt been produced by joint stock hanks, but by the Bank of England : — (hver, hear,) It wa, he repeated it, to the Bank of England that they onset to look.—(licar, hear,) In whet state were they At the present InOlneld ? 1n what state veep .they in January, ISa7V thy the last "Gazette" it appeared that the amount of iolue4 by the Bank of England and its deposits were 21 , 73 0,0004--(hear, hear.) 'l'h's was their condition after allowing so much gold to go away, But then there had been a reduction in the bullion between 15:35 and the present time. The bullion had been reduced from six millions and a quarter to four millions and an eighth. There had been a diminution in the bullion to the amount of two millions, and an increase of two mill) ors in the circulation. What did the Chancellor of the Exchequer say to this ? Why, his only answer was this—that there was a complaint from every part of the country that the joint-stock banks had not capi. tad; that they ought to have paid up their capital ; and not having done so, they therefore were not in a condition to meet their issues. What, he (Mr. Hume) asked, was the condition of the Bank of England ? Why, they had not one slelling of capi:al ; it was all lea to the Government.— (hear, heir.) 'finis was a matter which the Chancellor of the Exchequer was bound to look to. lie cent,' tell the Right Hon. Gehtli man, that if he permitted the ',resed sysieinto go on, unless that system was changed, very considerable danger must follow, and they would have to interfere with the public credit. It was on this account that he considered the sound policy was at once to look the danger in the face.—(hear, hear.) Last year the Hon. Memiier for the Tower Hamlets retlirred to this sub_ jeer, and alluded to the difficulties likely to occur to their state of cre dit The Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer was quite right in saying, now, that he 1)1,1 at the period referred to expressed a doubt as to the state of credit leading to danger and d , fficulties. Ilis(Mr. Hume's) answer was, that there would be no danger and no difficulty if the Bank had acted as it ought to Lave done —(hear.) It had been said, in answer to the Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets, that the best secu rity for the public was the discretion of the able and honest m en w h o acted as the m anagers o f t h e Bank. Now, he should wish to know how the Bank allowed 21 and 3 per cent. on delimits, while upon Ex chequer Bills there was only 2a. Public eredit had been injured. It was, he considered, the duty of the Chancellor of The Exchequer, to have prevented this, knowing, as lie must have done, the continual drain of gold that was going on. When the Chancellor of the Ex chequer found that Exchequer Bills were at a discount, they ought to have been instantly raised instead of allowing the matter to proceed as it bad done. By not doing so, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had to do that doubly which there would have been no necessity for if done at the proper time, What situation, then. did they come to? The Chancellor of the Exchequer paid 228,000/ discount for the loan, and the consequence was, the money was paid into the Bank, which they lent ; the Chancellor of the Exchequer then paid 450,0001. interest : thus, upon both transactions, there was a loss of 70,000/. to the pub. lic.—(hear.) He had already shown that the present difficulties were to be attributed to the excess of currency, and not to joint-stock banks, and that that excess was to be attributed to the Bank of England.—(hear, hear.) The House under these circumstances was, he considered, not to be led away by any inquiry into the state of joint-stock hanks. There had been no failure of joint-stock banks. As to the Bank which had been assisted by the Bank of England, he considered the latter establishment would lose by giving that assistance. The Bank of England he had no hesitation in saying, had endangered the public, and their issue of paper in that matter would be yet found to be a drain on the public. It would, he thought, be much better to have let the Bank take the consequences than run the risk they had done.—(hear, hear.) Now he observed there was no inquiry as to mi rate banks. Had no private bank failed ? Why limit the inquiry when they went about it ?—(hear.) He felt no hesitation in saying that he had made out a case of complaint against the Bank of England. He had shown that there had been a loss to the public in the dealings on the Exchequer Bills. They paid more as interest now than was paid in France, a thing that never before occurred in the history of England. Did they want capital in England ? No. Did shey want enterprise ? Did they want prudence in the management of their own affairs ? No ; but there was a body over whom they had no control, that raised and depressed at their will the value of currency, and of course of every commodity in the country. He wanted to have, then, an ex tended inquiry, to ascertain whether or not such a state of things was for the advantage of the public. No man could be more happy than he should be, if it were proved that Isis opinions were erroneous-on this subject. As to the facts upon which his opinions were founded, they could not be disproved, because they were in the returns then before the House. He was quite sure that the public, who were so deeply interested in this subject, would not be satisfied unless they looked at existing evils as they really were. They should front the perils before them—they ought not to leave the danger behind them; to do otherwise was not the way to pilot the vessel in safety.—(hear, hear.) If the Chancellor of the Exchequer would take his advice he would ascertain what were the real causes of the difficul. ties under which they had how been labouring for upwards of a year. He intended to move, as an amendment, that there be a general inquiry into the slate of banking, and the causes for the changes in the circu lation itir the last two years. The Hon. Member added that it had been suggested to him that the inquiry ought to be extended to Decem. be - , 1833, as the documents before them referred to three years instead of two. He, therefore, should alter his amendment, so that the inquiry into the state of banking would be from December, 1833. Be meant that they ought to go into a general inquiry as to the state of banking in Great Britain and Ireland, because he could not understand, if a system of banking answered well in one country, why they were not to have the benefit of that experience in another. Having used the word " currency" in his.amendment as originally. written, he wished to say, lest there might be a mistake on the point, that it was not to the cur rency, but to the circulating medium, that he wished the inquiry to be directed. Mr. W. WILLIAMS seconded the amendment proposed _by the Hon. Member for Middlesex. He admitted there was a necessity for the inquiry into joint-stock banks being proceeded with. Far as the information given to the House last year went, he should say of of it that it amounted to no information whatever.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped that the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not object to the amendment. Though the joint-stock banks, he ad mitted, contributed to some extent to produce the dire distress and difficulty under which the manufacturing, commercial, and trading in terests were suffering at that moment—(Hear, hear)—the part that the joint-stock banks had in producing •these effects was very small indeed, compared with what had been dare by the Bank of England.—(Hear, hear.) He considered that their management of the issues was the en tire cause tif the' difficulties he so often referred to. The joint-stock banks and the country bankers had extended their issues ; but the way had been led by the Bank of England. For the last three or four years that establishment had exhibited such a want of management, such a reckless disregard of the interesti of the country, as never yet had been exhibited by any public body.-'(Hear.) By the returns it appeared that on the 28th Dec:, 1833, the issues of the bank were 32,600,0004, and the amount in 'gold - ' 10,200,0004 On the 10th March, 1835, the issues were 28004,0004 In the course of fifteen months there was a difference in the issues of 4,000,000/. On the 26th December, in the same year, that is, only nine months afterwards, the increase in these issues .amounted to 8,800,0004 In the course of nine months there was an increase of more than ene-fourth in the circulation.— (hear, hear.) What was the consequence of this ? The great increase was caused by the avarice of the Bank.—(hear hear.) That was the period of advanced prices. Every article of import that came to this country-was raised in price from 40 to 100 per cent. Even on such an article as cotton there was an advance of 80 per cent. While they paid thus highly for the'commodities of other nations,the exchange was against them. When they paid a high price for the materials that come to them to be manufactured in this country, foreign nations would never give them a corresponding price to that which they paid for the raw ma.. terial, and the consequence must be a falling off in their export trade.— (hear,) He found that while the issues of the Bank of England were 31,700,000/., they had got in gold but four millions and some odd thousands. That is they had to pay the public but very little more than half-a.crown in the pound: lie asked the Right Hon. Gentleman was any corporation to be permitted to produce so much mischief to the country and to every branch in it ? Why were they all to be in such a state ofalarm and uncertainty ? The Right Hon. Gentleman told them indeed that he saw no ground for despondency. He (Mr. Wil liams) should like to know how the bank issues were to be regu lated—how, by reducing the circulation to such an extent, they were to bring the prices of all commodities down, so as to turn the exchange in their favour ? He asked the Hon. Gentleman if he did not see any ground for despondency in looking to the consequences of such a state of things ? The distress, in hieopinion, was only in its commencement, if the Right Hon. Gentleman did not give to the question proper con.' sideration.—(hear, hear.) What had been done in 1824 and 1825 ? They all recollected the effects then produced by the Bank of England upon the interests of the country. Ile remembered to have heard it stated by a Minister of the Crown in that House, that this great and commercial and manufacturing country "wins brought within eight and-forty hours of bankruptcy." What was the answer of their lead ing men ? One of their directors stated before the Committee, he un derstood, that at last they Iced discovered the safe principle upon which to regulate their issues. They had discovered the proper mode of re gulating them, and that if they kept gold in their coffers, one-third of the amount of their issues, they would be always safe. He (Mr. Williams) admitted that they would ; and the Bank went on fur some time upon that principle. But what was the condition of the Bank of England now? Instead of having the one-tliird of the amount of their issues in gold—they hail in gold only about the one-seventh or one-eighth of their issues. —(Hear, hear.) He asked, was that a state of things that ought to he allowed to continue? Ought a great country like this to be thus drove about from pillar to post, and nothing fixed, regulated, or certain ? He had watched the proceed. ingt of the Bank of' England and its issues for the last ton years, and he took upon hirhself to say thi , - , -that the Bank had been so change. able—so much up and down in their issues, that no man could engage in any commercial or trading transaction fur six or nine months and be able to tell what the result would 'be—whether it would bring to him a large profit, or be attended with a very great loss.—(llear, hear.) In a country like this same certain principle ought to be laid d iwn, The currency was the measure of all property. The pr,eveerity of this and every other country depended much upon (his, that they should keep the currency in.uch a state as, it, would not• vary, as it had been conti. nually varying under the managpinent of the Think of England.—(Hear, hear.) He Ifoped 1-j use wopi,i iustfiute a thorough and searching inquiry into the causes' - 6f` the evili, alai whether they had been produced by the management of the circulating medium. Such an inquiry ought at once to be instituted; its result, he trusted, would be to have a regular currency established. - . Mr. ROBINSON remarked that he had frequently before upon such a motion as was then before them refused to assent to a proposition simi. tar to that now made by the lion. Member for Middlesex. Without venturing an opinion as to whether tlie ilouse had been right or wrong in so acting, he felt , bound' to say that the Hon. Member for Middlesex _ought to bring forward a direct motion to the same effect as his amend. and not have it grafted upon an.inquiry of the nature now pro posed to them.—(lfear, hear.) The Committee at present proposed was not one so constituted as with advantage to entertain the motion of the Hon. Member for Middlesex. From the reviving of the Committee, and from the experience they had acquired within the I,st few months, he should hope the result of their inquiries would be legislating upon so important a matter with material advantage to the country.—(hear, hear.) Ile was able to say from-his own experience that it was abso lutely necessary that there should be some legislation upon this sub joof. Ile differed in opinion with the Hon. Member for Middlesex as to joint_stock banki being_ left to themselves, withoat any interference on the part of the Legislature. Such banks might be left to themselves if banks of deposit; but it was different when they were banks of issue. Being the latter, they were so wound up with the public interests that it was not only the right of the Legislature, but it was their duty, to inter fere with them. He did not mean to put himself forward as the defender of the Bank of England against the cliarps preferred against it. That, task he left to the Govei nor of the Bank; whom he saw present ; but this he felt bound to ray, that during -the late crisis difficulties would have been greatly increased but fur the conduct pursued on that occasion by the Bank and the Bank Directors. Ile certainly could n understand the assertion that the Bank of England was re sponsible for all the difficulties hat had occurred, and that the joint stock banks and the private banks had nothing to do with them. How could this be said when the joint_stock banks and the private banks increased -and diminished their issues simultaneously with the Bank of England ?—lf they did so, they were equally chargeable with the Bank of England for the derangement that had taken place in conse quence of the extension and diminution of the currency.—(Hear.)—, It had been obserVed by the lion. Member for Middlesex that Prance had escaped the late shock ; but then the extensive commercial nections of this country ought not to be forgotten. It was the de- Pllatunelltin the monetary system in America that led to the whole of the ditljc ultjes here. This would account for Prance' not being affected white this country had undergone such frightful changes.—(Hear, hear.) If it were proposed to extend the inquiry further, he certainly would object to it Ile slid not object to the Bill. of 1819 for restricting the currency to a pure standard. but he con iidered that the measure which followed for the.entire suppression of one-pound notes was habit unjust and injudicious, and be was Inuit decidedly of opini on* an d h e had tto hesitationll4 epinimt, that an itilniry might bo advantage. 4tlatls enterer into to see how far that part of the Bill, at least, might be repealed. If there were no other reasons for this, the existene3 of one and two,Potind notes its so.tiand and Ireland aftlrdod oue, and he slur no IT4gtv, wi ly t h is cw.tntry alone should be precluded from the circula. Hot .uf these small notes. He did not see what object could be gained by entering into the inquiry proposed by the Hon. lgeellw Or Middle, sex, unless for the purpose of adding to the existing uneasiness and alarm on the part of the pubic—(hear, hear, hear.) He could not therefore, agree to the Amendment. With respect to the question of making Bank of England notes a legal tender in the country, lit differed mitirely fi= the Hon. Member for Middlesex. He (Mr. Robin. son) did not thinkettat measure disadvantageous; on the contrary, he was satisfied that had it not been for such TI m astire during the groat panic the country would have been placed in difficulties influPely greater than those.which had. existed ; and whatever might be the m.rits or demerits of the Bank Charter, or the question genera:ly, he had no hesi tation in giving it as his unqualified opinion—it re.nained so after two or three years' experience as it was at the time when Lord Althorp intro ducod it--that that portion of the Bank Charter which permitted tin tender of Bank Of Etight'nd notes in lieu of gold would-be attended with great advantaeos. He entreated and implored the House nut to exi en.l the inquiry beyond the limits proposed by the Bight lion. Gentleman the Chancellor or the Exchequer. Mr. GISBORNE would maintain the right of the House to institute inquiries with respect to the proceediegs of all banks, anti he could state that many of the most important joint-stock banks were not banks of i , 821C. If this were to be an inquiry, he was ready to maletain that it was even more important that those banks should be inquired into, than those which were banks of issue. This reason involved in his mind, in the strongest possible degree, the propriety of including the Bank of Englthid in the inquiry. With respect to the banks which were not banks of issue, the Bank of England was immediately inte rested ; and it would, therefore, be an absurd prose: ding to inquire into the one set of banks, without inquiring into the other. This would be proved by referring to the answer given by Mr. Gibbons (1,059) before the Committee, in order to show the connection between the Bank of England and those banks which were not banks of issue. He said that inducements were held out by the Bank of England to joint, stork banks which were not banks of issue. He wanted to know hether this was not an operation as dangerous and as neces sary to be inquired into as any that could arise out of the issue of notes ? But this was not the only mode in which the Bank of England was con nected with joint-stock banks. The Bank cast a particular stigma •on all those banks that did mint enter into a bargain with them. Not only would tha Bank of England not discount their bills for them,. but they would not even discount bills for an independent customer if such bills bore the indorsement of these banks. He would ask the House, with this intimate connection between these banks, whether they would agree to the limitations proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer; or the still stricter limitations suggested by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Worcester (Mr. Robinson) ? He had resisted the renewal of the Bank Charter. He had seen periodically for many years the Bank getting into troubles and difficulties, and he ventured at the time upon a prediction as to what would be its future fate. He had not waited long for the verification of that prediction. The reason was, that the Bank had placed on its shoulders that for which they were to. tally incompetent. The Bank of England,being desirous of securing their monopoly, and of keeping up an adulterous connection with Government, continued to bear the burden. The consequences were inevitable. He hoped he would not be considered as speaking disrespectfully of the Com mittee if he drew the attention of the House to their Report. His objection to it, and the inquiry, in the first place was, that it led to expectations which it was impossible to satisfy.. The object of the inquiry was, no doubt, to form a gum ndwork for legislation. The corn. mittee consisted of the same members, with the addition of four merry. 'hers, becanse Ireland was included in the inquiry. He found thirteen different points enumerated by the Committee, aid suggested as topics for legislation. He apprehended that if they were going to legislate they would do .so for the protection of some one. They must either legislate for the shareholders, or for those who did the business, or, lastly, they must legislate for the public,that was, the country generally. As far as legislation could be applied to the two first objects, it was in his opinion altogether illegitimate ; he considered it totally imposs sible to promote the interests either of the shareholders or the directors by dictating to them how they should conduct their business. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had forgotten that for many years joint-stock banks were disallowed, and that, there_ fore, in their 'childhood he ought to have expected some freaks. The Right Hon. Gentleman, would not let them get wise by experience ; he (the Chancellor of the Ex c h equer ) was determined to make them wise by Act of Parliament But the two species were dissimilar, one inch of the wisdom of experience was worth a fathom of Act of Parliament wisdom. There were, as he had stated, several topics for legislation pointed out ley the Report of the Committee. He found, from . a question asked w of the Chancello r o f t h e Exc h equer in page 39, that it as contemplated having the aid of a settlement devised by competent authorities, in or der to see that it contained no clause unjust between ;the proprietors and the directors. Now lie (Mr. Gishorne) held that this was a busi. ness with which that House had no concern. The business of that House was to give the Most, direct remedy against fraud of every kind, and to give the greatest facilities for the recovery of debts, but they had no right to interfere in the transactions between man and man except when they interfered with the public.—(Hear, hear.) The Report of the Committee complained of the amount of noeninal as compared with . paid-up capital. He should like to know why banks should not have the - power of keeping up as much capital as their business required. The Reportalso complained that the law did not impose any restrictions on the amount of the shares subscribed. Was it reasonable that there should be any such restrictions ? The Report also complained that the laW did not enforce any rule respecting the nominal amount of the shares, or respecting the amount of capital paid up before the commencement of business. With respect to this point, he had looked into the evi dence, he had read the whole of it carefully, and he would venture to say that there was nothing in the evidence to establish a better con duct in the slightest degree on the part of the banks of large shares as compared those with small shares, or between those which had a large proportion of their capital paid up and those having a smal:er paid.up capital. If the, evidence did not furnish any ground for such a conch,_ 'sloe, did the manner in which the dif f erent banks were, conducted do so ? He would refer Hon. Members to the case of the Stourbriclge and Kidderminster Bank, in which the shares were small, and the amount of paid-up capital forty-five thousand pounds, which lied two branches and four agencies, yet the business was flourishing in the highest de gree, and the country round shared in its prosPerity. There was an other instance in the case of the - Birmingham Banking Company, the operations of winch were conducted_ on a different principle, there being no branches connected with it. ;n this bank the capital was only fitly thousand pounds, yet, besides being 'of the greatest advantage to the district in which its operations were felt, its proprietary had divided amongst themselves ten pounds per cent. every year that the Bank had existed, viz., from 1829 up to the present time. He would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he thought he could, by Act of Parliainent, frame two Banks that would answer those purposes for which they were created, anti at the same time serve - the shareholder and the neighbourhood as these two Banks had done ? This subject was of so technical a nature that lie was afraid he was wearying the Rouse with it. And the complaint of the Committee was teat the law did not provide for- the publication of the liabilities, assets, Sse., of the die. fer nt banks. Now, the concurrent testimony of every witness who had been examined proved that such returns were perfectly futile ant deceiving.—(hear, hear.) Did the House expect that a body of men whose affairs were in a bad state would come forward ant tell the s ieople sop He was surprised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had so many important subjects to interest him, should keep up this eternal hammering at this question. There were other reasons why he objected to the Report of the Committee as a foundation for legis lation, and one was, that on every important subject authorities varied so much with circumstancea that it was impossible to come to any right and definite conclusion. Some Hon. Members of the Committee seemed to have hal a great horror of allowing the banks to discount bills, although he believed that several had come out of the Committee with their opinions in this respect very much altered. Now, with re spect to discounting bills, he would like to know how banks that did not issue notes could carry on their business without discounting bills. —(hear, hear.) Why, the discounting of bills was one of the most legitimate operations of a large bank in a country district. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had asked questions which indicated a most infantile simplicity on this subject. He thought the in. quiry proposed by the ChancellOr of the Exchequer was extremely un just, and he therefore would not consent to the renewal of the Commit. tee. He would move the previous question, and if ally Member were inclined to support him, he would divide the House ; if not, he would vote fir the inquiry proposed by his Hon. Friend the Member for Mnl. dtesex, as, if any inquiry were made, it ought to be effectual, and also impartial. Mr. VILLIERS thought that the reasons adduced by the Hon. Mem ber for Worcester (Mr. Robinson) for opposing the amendment of the Member for Middlesex were the moat whimsical be had ever heard. The Hon. Gentleman did not object to an inquiry into joint-stock banks, but he objected to inquire -into banking generally. The Hon. Member (Mr. Robinson), however, was willing to extend the inquiry into the suppres. sion of one-pound notes ; but what connection there was between the two subjects he (Mr. Villiers) could not understand. He (Mr; Villiers) did not expect that any good result could be derived froin the very par tial inquiry proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ift he Corn. mittee had it not in view to establish and enforce some regulations which shrill'd apply to all banking establishments, he thought that their labours wou Id only tend to confirm the suspicions that prevailed in the com mercial world, that the inquiry was instituted with the view to injure one branch of banking, and to favour another. He was convinced that the more they taught the people to depend upon Parliament fur regulating their business, the more it would tend to make them careless and negligent of their interests. With respect to joint stock banks, he was sure that the evils said to arise from them Were greatly overrated, and time advantages derived from them greatly under. rated.—(hear, hear.) If anything.tendel to show the impolicy and dif fictilty of legislating for joint-stock banks, it was the varioul notions and nostrums that were prescribed for the evils said to be caused by them. The Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Clay) had pre ssribed no less than three different nostrums for those evils ; but he (Mr. Villiers) had never heard a commercial man agree with all three, few to two of them, many to some one, and many again to none' at all. The fact was, that Wall these nostrums were adopted they would not meet the evil complained of. They only applied to the money issue of these banks, which, upon the evidence of practical men, constituted only a firth of their liabilities; the remedy proposed, therefbre, would only meet one- fifth of the evil at the utniost. He was sorry to observe that his Right Hon. Friend's inquiry entirely omitted the state of the affhirs and management of the Bank of England. Now if the inquiry were to be limited, he should consider it a perfect delusion.—(hear, hear.) If they were to trace all the recent commercial oistresses, and all the crises that had occurred of late years to their first cause, lie thought it would be found that they were inanity attributable to the irresponsible footing of the Bank of England_ Mr. WARBURTON did not agree with his Hon. Friend the Mem ber for North Derbyshire in most of his propositions. The question before the House was not whether they should legislate on the subject of joint-stock banks, but whether they should have a Committee of 'in quiry on the subject—whether there were not in existence evils arising out, of the conduct of joint.stock banks which, for the sake of public information and security, it was desirable to inquire into. The evils attributable to joint-stock banks were of a very didbrent nature from those which could be laid to the charge of the Bank of England. Amongst the charges against the managers of joint-stock banks was that of want of integrity In their proceedings ; but he had never heard, amongst all the charges against the Bank of England, that of any want of personal integrity on the part of its Governors. A want of prudence had occa sionally been attributed to them, but it had never been alleged against them that tt:ey had mismanaged the funds intrusted to them by their customers for their .own personal benefit.—(hear, bear.) He would not deny that the Bank of England might not be so perfeet in its con_. trol of the currency as might be desirable, and that a time might come whet, it would be advisable to inquire into such a question.—(hear, hear.) At the same time, however, he would observe that whilst the greatest good which could be expected to result from such an inquiry was that of forming an ellicient board to control the currency with as much equality as pcSsible, the greatest evil which might be apprehended from bringing on such an inquiry at an imp,ope.r time was such a ge neral feeling of alarm amongst the pailio as might cause a stopp❑ge of payments at the Bark,—(hear, hear.) For his own, part he did not think that at the present moment it would be desirable to take up such atl itiquiry, and therefore he should not vote with his Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex. Mr. T. BARING ,should vote for continuing the inquiry. With jaint-stoek banks there might be capitals of millions advertised of which only thousands were paid up, and yet the ' , wide of the neighbourhood would have no means of knowing how far that might be the case. An inquiry into the constitution of the Bank of England at this moment would be of a very different nature to this : and to what was it to lead when it was done it Were they to be calle.! upon to limit its Chartcr ? no.) If, on the other hand, it was proposed to give additional powers to the Bank, they would have to go into the whole question of the powers it was already possessed of. It was very difficult to foresee to what all this might lead, if they were once to suffer themselves to go Into this question, its addition to that now before them. The Hop, Member for Worcester had referred to the change which had recently taken place in the currency, of the United States, Undoubtedly the establishment of a double standard was a very great change., and had doubtless so increased the relative value of gold as to render it a matter tot consideration whethq scukle atets scold uQG lle takett by us cut the subject. With respect to the caution which the Chancellor had given on the subject, he must say that he could v. 1,11 the Right Honourable Gentleman had acted upon his own suggestion, and net have kept up ass immense floating debt of thir y miilions in the way he had done. Mr. CLAY was decidedly of opinion that if the inquiry was intended for any useful purpose, it ought to be confined to the subject of the mo. tine. He thought the inquiry, as proposed, should be renewed. Mr. PA .- 11180N said, with respect to the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchsquer; be thought it It very proper one. He need hardly revert to the subject of the mismanagement of certain i anks, and par. icularly of a great bank of issue, which had recently occurred, to satisfy the House thet there was a sufficient reason for an inquiry of the nature and xtent proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. With regard to the remarks of the Hon. Member for Coventry, and of other gent!, men wile had found fault with the management of the Bank of England in con trolling its issues, he begged to observe, that since. the re-establishment of its charter by the recent Act, the accounts o:thebank had been pub. fished at regular stipulated intervals,and it appeared to him, therefore, that if the Bank had been so extravag .ntly misconducted as was alleged, it was the duty or the Hon. Gentleman to bring the subject under notico at an earlier poi iod. All he could say w: s, that whenever the time might come when the Wink of England sinned be calied to aecOunt with the public, he confidently believed that it would maintain the credit it had always hitherto enjoyed. As yet, however, he trusted that there was no sufficient call for such an inquiry. Mr. CAYLEY said he agreed with the Hon. Member for Middlesex, that the inquiry should be extended to the affairs of the Bank of Eng. land. The difficulty which the Bank of England had to contend with under the present system was, that :t had to attend not only to its own interest—to bank stock, for instance, as well as other property con. meted with that establishmsnt —but also to the interests ofthe mere cantile body, The Bank on thelate trying occasion had acted with great hiimanity, and had attended to its own interests as well as the great in terests of the public without drawing the cord too tight. But he would now ask what was the danger to the Bank at present ? The danger arose in a great measure from the circumst ince that the exchanges were not favourable, and consequently so long as this was the case the tieeessary result must be to create derangement to a certain extent in the affairs of the Bank. In the crisis of 1825 the slate of the exchanges was not so bad or so injurious to the Bank. Oe that occasion the rate of exchange had been unfavourable for only 'six months ; whereas, when the difficulties commenced last autumn, it had been unfavourable for twelve or eighteen months, and then, as in 1825, the Bank was com pelled to make the greatest exertions to stave off the evil day, and to counteract the evil arising ft= the price of commodities being higher than the standard of value. lie considered it impossible that the stan dard of value could be higher than the prices of commodities, unless the circulation has diminished in order to raise the price. He, therefore, supported the inquiry, while at the same time he expressed it as his opinion that the Bank of England could not have managed in any other way than they had done for the last few months. In the autumn the Bank was in a most perilous state. lie considered it eras yet in greater peril still at the present moment ; and was it then wise and prudent to wait ti.l they got deeper into the mud befOre they instituted inquiry ? Mr. O'CONNELL said the main question was, whether the House should institute an inquiry as extensive as proposed by his Hon. Friend the Member for eliddlesex. He did not think that any one intended to oppose inquiry. Only one Member had argued it, but he had not stated that he should vote against it. Every other speaker seemed in favour of inquiry, and the only difference was as to the extent. This, how. 'ever, he must say, that if the object of inquiry were to declare hosti. lity to jeint.stock banks, he should feel it his duty to oppose it. lie had heard something to that effect from his Hon. Friend the Member for Bridport, but nothing from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ile would also say, that if the'object of inquiry were to legislate according to the Report of the Committee, he would also be against it. The evil s of the present state of .affairs had induced the Government to recom meed the subject . to the consideration of the Legislature, in order to provide for the security of joint-stock banks. Now, he did not con sider diet much injury had been sustained by the public, in consequence of these establishments ; a joiet.stock bank in England had stopped, and another in Ireland. But the bank in Eng:a:id—the Carlisle bank— had been many years in existence, and, according to all accounts, it would be able to pay 14e or 15s. in the polled. There, therefore, hail been little or no loss its England, and lie considered there would beno loss in Ireland. He thought the great evil arose from the pressure on the Bank of England, constituted as it was at present. The Hon. Member for Yarmouth said the country for some time had been in a state of great prosperity, and it was therefore the duty of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer to take seep; to meet any evils that might arise from such a state of trade. Now what reason was there in such an argument ? Because tee country was prosperous, it sea; necessary for the Chancel lor of the Exchequer to take measures for meeting the evils that might be pro-lured by it. If such were the state of financial affairs, must thei.Cnot be something rotten at the bottom ? The country abounded its wealth, manufactures and trade flourished, the country in every res. pout was highly prosperous, yet that very prosperity, at stated and regu lar periods,' induced great misery, The Bank of England was not to blame. The evil arose from the system, and the Bank had not sulli cient power to counteract it. It had been said of Magendie that he nailed a dog by the nose to a wall and then proceeded to dissect it. The Directors of the Bank were exactly its that state ; their noses were nailed to the wall, and the Legislature compelled them to undergo the operation. The exchanges went against them, gold left the country, and they naturally enough endeavoured te, keep off the drain. from themselves; but they were placed in that position, not from any fault of theirs, but from the fault of those who refused to alter the system. Now what was the state of the two countries, England and 'lreland ? It was said there was an un i on between the countries ; but what sort of an union was it ? The Government had a .National Bank, and had a certain cootrol over it, so that they might act , in harmony, But how were affairs in Ire. teed ? They had a National Bank in that country, but it was a monopoly. Individuals might establish banks, but the number of partners was limited; the law prescribed limits, and these so strict that if more partners were taken in, to increase the security the directors were compelled to diminish their issues. The House were aware that the Bank of England last autumn raised the rate of discount to 5 per cent., while the Bank of Ireland discounted at 31 ; and at the same time the joint-stock banks discounted good paper at d per cent. What was the consequence? Bills came from Lancashire and other parts in England, and were discounted by the Batik of Ireland at 3a per cent. ; the person who got the tills dis oounted went next door and got gold, and Ireland was thus drained of gbh!. When a panic took place in consequence of the exei.ement caused by the Duke of Wellington coming into of it was necessary to 'send over a million to Ireland ; and what would be the consequence if it should he necessary to send over gold now, when theae was little more than four millions in the Bank? Souse Hon. Members approved of inquiry, but objected to the time. He could see:no reason its that. Why not have in qu i ry now ? Why should it I e postponed s The Honourable Member fur Bridport, anti the Honourable Member for the Tower Hamlets, sai I there was danger. Was the Bank of Eog land its danger? If so, that was an imperative reason for inquiry. If the Bank were in danger, was not 1141 community also in danger, and was it pot the most rational way to get out of the difficulty by meeting the danger at once ? The great danger arose from the apprehensions of the public, and the best way to dispel those apprehensions was to ascertain what the real evil was. Honour able Members had spoken of the importance of establishiag great prin ciples. Now nothing was worse in many instances than great princi. pies for individual injury, lie believed the great principle soug'it to be established in 1819 had caused morettinger andonote injury to m an y i n . dividuals than any othe r o f a s i m il ar nature. It spread its influence over a vast number of individuals, and reduced many who had been living its wealth and affluence to the greatest distress. He therefore wished for inquiry. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said inquiry would come incidentaly : why should it not came directly ? Let the inquiry commence without delay ; and the more extensive it was the more would the public mind be disabused. Mr. CRA WFORD next addressed the Housie but he was very im perfectly heard. Atter alluding to the statement, made by the Hon. Member for Derbyshire relative to the Birmingham joint.stock hank, he said he was not prepared to address the House at any length on the subject. He had not had the honour Of being a member of the Com mittee which sat last year, but lie heel read every word of the Report, and from that he had formed hit opinion that it would be impossible tiir these joint-stock banks to make a remunerating per ceiling° sinless by the sale of their credit. The amount of circulation was greatly in creased by re-discounting, and to this, among other reasons, were to be assigned the cause of the pressure and the difficult state to which the country had come, Mr. PO uLETT THOMSON said he concurred in what had been said by tho Hon. Member for Derbyshire as to the propriety of re-appoint ing the Committee, though he differed as to the necessity of taking the Report, in every respect, as a groundwork for legislation. The Com mittee of last session made a Report, and in that they recommended the reconstruction of the Committee. On reading the evidence he found also that but few of the witnesses considered legislation unadvisable. M. James, one of the witnesses, was asked whether he thought that part of the law required amendment? and Isis answer was in the affirmative. He believed that lion. Members would find few witnesses who consi dered legislation unadvisaple, though they diftbred as to the mode, If it were advisable, then, to legislate on the subject, was it not better to re appoint the Committee ? Every friend of joinestock banks ought to assent to the inquiry. All must be aware that these banks had borne up well, and had gained credit under the trial.—(hear.) As a friend, therefore, to joint-stock banks, he should vote for the proposed inquiry. Whatever difference of opinion there might be as to the construc tion of some of these banks, it could not be denied that the large numbers of persons of , wealth and respectability who engaged in these establishments formed a new feature in the banking system of this country. No doubt such a number of persons of this class created a greater degree of security, and no man entertained a doubt that paper had been pushed farther than it ever had been before. That circumstance undoubtedly produced such a result ; and he agreed with an Hon. Member who stated that great disadvantage might arise from the market being overflnoded with paper at one time, and too touch curtailed at another. But that was an evil which - could not be guarded against : no Act of Parliament seeild make people wise. If people were so unwise as to act in the manner his Hon. Friend had described, he believed no legislative measures could be found to make them act more prudently, and prevent t.sem miming into such evils. Of this, however, there could be no doubt, that numbers of persons embarxing their whole fortunes in such establishments formed a great guarantee for their stability mid good management. If the House were to adopt the proposition of the Hine Member for Middlesex it would be impossible to say how far the investigations of the Committee might extend. See what a field of inquiry would be open to them. They would 'have to inquire into the state of bullion; they would have to in quire into the state of the coinage; they would have to determine whether it was advisable to have re silver standard, or at gold standard, or a mixed gold and silver standard, or no standard at all. Nothing could be more injudicious than to found a proposition for so extensive an in quiry on a motion the object of which was merely to revive a committee on a small branch of that inquiry. He objected to the motion of the lion. Member for Middlesex, also, 011 the groune that the worsts of that motion went much further even than his Honourable Friend wished. He objected to the motion, because the Committee for the renewal of which his Right Hon. Friend had moved would have quite enough to do If they were confined to the investigation of the state and conduct of joint:stock banks.' But it ha,l been argued that it was impossible for such a Committee adequately to discharge the duties entrusted to it without makilig' an inquiry into the state and conduct of the Bank of England. Why his Right Honourable Friend had admitted that, so far as the Bank of England was con nected with the question of the joint-stock banks, an in quiry must be made into the conduct of the Bank of England ; but Ho further. In his opinion it would be highly inexpedient to go into an extended inquiry with reference to the Bank of England. A time of difficulty --not of difficulty its the condition of the Bank of Eng_ land, but of difficulty in the condition of the commercial world —ova cettainly not the time to choose for entering into a solemn investiga tion of the whole state and conduct of the Bank of England. Nothing could indeed be more unadvisable. He did not wish to impede the ope rations of the Bank of England, nor did he wish to mix up that house with the concerns of the Bank of England.—(Hear.) lie wished the Bank of England to be allowed, in the faithful and honour able discharge of its duties (and he was quite sure that it would discharge its duties faithfully and honourably), to take its own uninterrupted and independent course. An interference with that course would not be wise, and would not be treating the Batik of England with the justice and fairness to which it was entitled. Ile would not enter into the various questions which had been raised by the Hon. Member for Middlesex and other Hon. Gentlemen. He would not inquire whether the recent commercial pressure might or might not have been obviated lay more early assistance—he would say nothing on the general quusttun of our currency—and he would conclude by expressing his earnest hope that the ]louse would not agree to the motion of his Host. Friend the Member for Middlesex, but would confine the in. quirios of the proposed Committee within the limits recommended by his Right - Floni Friend. Mr. GISBORNE explained. Sir B. rEgr, felt it his duty to support the motion of the j 1 islet