The Sun. — London, England, 1812-12-02 00:00:00

kfreen the cot ntrl6Siarlii given it tridch o .lei - attention ; and he Might invoice thesearchera hearts fo bear witness huts anxionsly he - had sired to peace and - i(mity reestablished With .An' gland and America. He then noticed the 'natl.:, ber in which the concession' Made by Mr.Ertkine I.4en received by the !Amerieatis, and stheig= 4lominious manner in which M. Jackson hitibeeri sent away befOre an answer tin 'the communiea tion made to his Government etittld he received, to enable them to judge 'Whether' Or riot his conduct Was upheld or ilis - avtivved in England.— These things ought to be retheniliered by those who accused the English Government of acting With a feeling of irritation towards Anierica. The conduct of America, it Would be found, had bees:that which was best calculated to Second the • views of France, to make the treaty of Utrecht the common law of Europe, to exile England, and td tnake her navy' useless but to defend her own Coasts. The Government of America had dropped their - complaints • against the Orders in Council, and resorted to other grievances when there ap 'Peared a probability that those Orders would be 'abandoned. PeaCe, he contended, the recent con `duct of the American Government made it int•— possible to preserve, but at the expellee of the Stift-ender of our maritime rights. He had dis aPproved of thr repeal of the Orders in Council, 'and must ever condemn that policy which dictated :Such a measure. This had been caused by the ,exaggerated statements made of the distress of our mercantile towns. ! It was then said, that the lan guage of all the orders received from America was, '" Ship goods the moment the Orders in Council are repealed." The consequence was, the Ame rican Government! had the justice to . condemn those goods which were English property, and restore to their owners those which were Ameri.-. van. •It was in vain that he had contended that - such would be the result of the Orders in Council, es had since been e;perienced, all he could urge was over-ruled, and 'they were abandoned. After some - , further obSerations, the Learned Gentle-, concluded, by deprecating the War between - I . 'algland And Americ,a, for the countenance it gave to the ambitious views of a desperate Usurper; for what was more to be deplored, than to see the two co'uutries in the world which possessed the rilost•of civil liberty, and which, tor- various rea sons, oughtto be united for ever iu.amity, ready to play his game; by turning their arms against each other? Mr..WmacaroacE Was of opinion that nothing , could prove mon: injurious and pernicious to the cause they wished to serve, than- that line of con duct which.went to raise ail-Outcry for peace at a time when it could not be obtained. He trusted that all fair measures would be taken to.. repress • Such an outcry, Which, from its nature . being misunderstood in foreign parts, rikigbt be most - ,1- trinlental 'to our interests. That peace was de tirable, when it could be obtained on safe thud hn nourable terms - ; no man could deny, and 'no man touldinore highly prite its bleSsings thin he did . ; but'h-e did not think any instructions that r arlia- Ment might give to conclude a peaco, would be likely to accomplish so desirable an end. ,On the ontrary„ he -thought. such- instructions - -might place it more at - a distance ;• and with this feeling, under existing circumstances, Ile had' felt' satisfac tion - at seeing the Amendment of tihe preceding night negatived. Mr. Po& SONBY could not concur itt the amend ment. moved by his Hon: Friend (Mr. Creevey) in agreeing to the Address, he contended, they did not pledge themselves to take the sa - me view of the subjects it embraced as was takeil of them - by MiniSters. These things had, now become in Par liament almost matters of course, and 'lnch an ad dress as was proposed was received rather as a complinient than as any thing else. It was like, " 1 reMain, with great regard, your most obe dient humble servant," from one pers , an'to an other, for whom, he felt no regard, anil to Whom he had.never rendered any service. If they were • .to take upon themselves to debate the' Address t o • be presented in answer to the Spec*, paragraph by paragraph,. the session would be far advanced before.they could come to a conclusion. Though they generally conctured in it, they were not bounds to the details, and lie thought, from the debate. of that night, it would he, seen that it was better to let it go off gaiety, and discuss the subjeatse'it embraced separately, than to take them as they had thus been takevi. When the . Chancellor of the Exchequer, for instance„ came forward to ask •sullplies ,for carrying on the war in the Peninsula, - then it would be for the House to - inquire into the policy of granting a supply, if any should .be granted. . Lord c3ASTLEREAtii felt obliged to the, Right lion. Gentlerrian for the hint he had given, as lie thought it - by no means desirable that the subjects touched upon in . the Address - should he taken in the loose manner in which they had that night been debated. That which he had principally risen foCnow was to state, in anOver to 'what bad fallen from-one who bad spoken in debate, that the Maritime rights of England had in no instance been surrendered to America by the partial repeal of the Orders in Council ;—this had been parti cularly guarded against in the -commitnications made to the American Government. , WHITZREAD - satirically noticed the silence, held by ; the :Learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Stephen) on that day, which gave the death-blow to the Orders in Council. It had that night been stated'hy' a Right Hon. Gentleman, whom he be lieved be Might call the Patriarch of the Treasury - Bench (Mr. Rose) that much misconception had gone abroad .on the . subject of a tax On This he "now said was impracticable and impos sible. It was quite foolish,-and the Right Hon.. Gentleman wondered - how such' an'idea could have gone abroad. and got into all- the papers, yet still be (Mr. W. would.assert that the Chancellor of the Exchequer bad., in his hearing, last year, inentiOned a tax upon capital„as' that which might be, in some cases,• .resorted to. He (Mr. W.) had been, spoken of, as. if he had been the first man to propose --a resolution in that House, in favour:of - peace— But he 'remembered that nineteen. .years ago, when he commenced his po- Zitic - at life, that greatmaii Mr. Fox, -moved an dd. , tore'' torus Majesty", -priiiing him to send an Am bassador to Park to - nelyie-iite 'a Peace. Ile - also' ~,4remembered, that one w • , sion, When the tfon; Cientletuan; late iNfetri. •fw YOrk, irliti noW 0161104. sliA a proi6iling wOnid be attended With such perniciont coifi;equileels; had thought-Nr,_ Pitt riot sufficiently akvake 1i an opportunity whith offered for Making peace, had himself endeAvorired to induce the House to come to a resolution'simi lar -to that which he now characterised as likely to be so pernicibus. He then proceeded .to notice the transactiOns which had recently . distinguished the Atherican war. He contended a favOuriible'op portunity now offered for making, or Attempting to make, a peace. He was sorry nothing on this subject was contained in the Speech ; and he wished to make a peace before the necessity there existed for one was exposed bare and naked to the world. He agreed generally in what had been stated by Mr. Robinson respecting ,the compa: rative situation of things in the Peninsula, but he, complained of the conduct of the /Spaniards.— Where were their efforts ! If we were fighting ' the cause of Spain in Spain, it would be sup posed that '2O Spaniards would fall to two of their 10,000 to your 1000. What was the c;f:se when the returns were made out ?—English so many, Portuguese so many, Spaniards—two ! 7 --- He believed Lord Wellington able to beat all the French Generals; but without the cordial co-ope ration of the Spaniards, he could not drive the French out of the Peninsula. - The French Em peror, if able to take the position on the river be wag hastening to, and if he could provision his army, might be enabled to advance against St. 'Petershrirgh with greater ease than he could in summer. A pause would probably precede his at tempting this, and in that interval he would wish an Ambassador to.besent to him with 'proposals to which we meant to adhere, and this done, the result of the mission would soon be known: This, he thought, ought to be done, as piing on as we had gone on for the last few years, our situation became worse and 'worse ; and always rejecting the terms offered at the time, worse were after wards tendered • and these again refused, though we would gladly accept of terms a little better, though much inferior to those previously rejected, still kept us as far as ever from the wished-for pa cification. In the end, unless some great effort were made .to obtain a peace, they might be forced by the people to accept of any terms the enemy would grant. Mr. WiLnEnFoacE explained, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that with regard to the war in Spain, he perfectly agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman near him. in thinking that Ministers are very much to blame if they have not made use of every effort in their power. In order to shew that they had made great efforts, he would state one, or two facts. — During the year 1809, the amount of money paid by the Treasury was 2,800,0001.: -whereas, at the close of the year ending in November last, the amount of the expenditure was no less than eleven millions and a half. He was aware that Ministers were open to the charge of prodigality. But allowance shoUld be made, when it is recolr lected that they were obliged to make every effort in their power. It bad been said by an Hon. Gentleman, that in Speeches from' the Throne, it was alo.vays usual to make some 'reference to the state of the revenues of the nation ; yet this was certainly not correct ; for in the speeches at'the opening of the Parliament in 1807 and 1809, no allusion at all wa3 made to the sabiect. , Even in the Speech for the year 1806, he believed the sub ject was not mentioned. With regard. to the threat which had been imputed to him, for a tax on capital, before the end of the last Session, he could explain thewhole affair. In speaking with some Gentlemen on the subject, of the resources which had been resorted to by other 'countries, he had stated, that in Poland, and several other nations, the ni , .rastire of a tax on Capital had been adopted; and that he conceiv ed that the adoption of such a tax was practica ble in this kingdom. When he said this, it was not under any impression that it . should ever be necessary to resort to that expedient. Last night, he said, we were told that our,commerce had been. swept from the seas, and to-night we Were told that we had' been defeatedat sea. Ile did not conceive that it was at all to be wondered at, if a larger force Shoidd- beat one Much infe rior. With regard to the assertion that our com merce had been swept from the sea ; he would just state a circumstance, to show that this was a mistake. Last . year the amount of the exports frOm the port of London was eight millions, this year it was 13 millions. Now, how could it, hap pen that our commerce should actually increase, if it were, as the Right Hon. Gentleman had said, swept from the sea ? One other circumstance he could not forbear to state, viz. that in the year ending in October last, 'in a revenue of 60 mil lions, there was only a deficit of 90;000/.' Mr. W. SMITH was averse to such discussions on the subject of peace as had of late taken • place. They must necessarily lead to disclosures which tend to defeat the very end which is, proms fessed to he wished •for, by making , the eneuiy the more inclined to be averse to pacific measures, iu proportion as they find us incline for negocia tions. Ale, however, conceited that the motion of the Hon. Gentleman on this occasion, stood on the same grounds with that of Mr. Fox in 1793. He had been very much grieved at the exposures which took place during the debates.for'the repeal of the Orders in Council, for he could not but think. that to those exposures might he attribut , . cd, in a great measure, the cause of the pre sent American war. He, however, laid the blame of this exposure at a different door front that which an Hon. Gentleman opposite had done. This ek . postire sheaved to America, that a great party in this country thought. that we should yield, front an inability to continue the struggle any longer. This was certainly not the way to obtain pea Ce. As to Spain, We must - know that .Buonaparte knoWs :the actual -situation of affairs in Spain quite .as well, and perhaps better, than we do 3 and of course can regulate his proceed-, ings in .that quarter. He ,thought A tax oil capital a measure so absurd an impracticable, that it coidd never go down in this country. What the Right Hon. Gentleman had said on this sub ject, did certainly give rise to that report which he had a few minutes ago so positively contradict cd. And the reason why., this obtained any credit was, that -people were -in general disposed to rate too low the resources of our country. Mr. CANNING. wished to set himself right to the he that hiS sentiments on • some .points hi& been MiSunde,rsfocid, It had been suppoS`t.d, thikt H his only objection. to the Ainerican wai: was ein account of the !banner- in which war bdifi ileelared, and to the Manner of issuing. letters di.' inswque s 4c. and on thi4, Sup-: position be had beta answered by the Noble Lord; He wished now tki state, that his ObjectiOnto the American war waS . , the Want of energy in carry lug it on.. No vigorous efforts have 'been . Made by sea or land. 'Whereas, if proper exertions had been .macW by our GoVertirrient, the nei'al force of America should have been prevented from having alit' opportunity of doing lig mischief. It should have bezel, as it were, hermetically sealed. He stated this to spew that his objectiOn to this war had not been answered by the Noble Lord. With w regard to our commerce being sept from the seaS,_ Le meant, considering the comparative forces of this kingdom and America, the latter had made an infinitely greater number of captures than bad been taken by our ships. The answer made to . this by hiS Right 1-ion. Friend (Mr. Vansittitrt) was an account of exports from Lon don. But it was to be recollected that the greater part of the, goods exported, and whose amount had been stated; were sent in directions where they ran no risk of falling in with American ships. His remarks on the subject Of the declaration of war had also been thisjanderAtood. Government had certainly been guilty of an act of injustice to the country brnegleeting to State openly a denial of those charges Urged by America. The answer to this was, that an answer to those charges .would have contained Matter which would have tended to irritate the American Government. " GoOd God !" said the Right lion., Gentleman, " are we come to such a state.olhumilintion as not to dare to refute charges made against us, for fear of ir ritating the Power that urges these charges ?" (Hear, Oar !). He thought it very probable, that had these .charges.heen openly and immediately answered, it ~iwoiild have . greatly acCelerated an amicable 'adjustment of the pending differences 3 for any peace made without a refutation of these charges would have been an act of flagrant injns tice to this country. With regard to the question of peace, he disclaimed the idea that no peace could be made with . the present Ruler of France. Neither did he think that there was any Member in that House, who had ever uttered such sentiments. Yet, in' the present Govern ment of France, there existed a determined reso lution to pull down this country from the high station in which it now stands, and which they conceive to be an absolute usurpation. As in ne ,gociations for peace we have to contend against this fixed principle., of course, it becomes us to use the greatest caution in all such negociationS. On this - account it is dangerous to stir up any such sentiments, a:; thatit is easy to make a peace with France. One of those who argued on the subject of the repeal Of the Orders in Council, contended, that the repeal of these Orders would not produce the end designed. The 'question on the . subject of these' Orders was `to consider whether they really were, as they were intended to be, a mea sure of Warlike retribution', and whether they I:n*ol &teed efftets: po the enemy which might ' , be a re taliation •for the effects of the hostile decree' of France. He concluded by asking Lord Castle reagh, for the sake of information, what was the present state of affairs between this country and America. " Whether are we at war, or at nego-s dation, or half at • war and half at negociation ? And whether the correspondence which has led to this anomalous. state is to be produced, and when ?" Lord CASTLEREAGH apologized for again trou bling the nouce.' The explanation given last night was, he thought, sufficient to inform the Right .Hon, Gentleman that the, state in which this country stands with AMerica, is one of unqua lified war. He did not feel himself authorised to say.that the result of any negociation which at present was going on, would be an amicable ar rangement between the two countries. Govern lnent-had reason-to expect an answer to their dis patches some time ago, for these dispatches had been sent some time before the departure of Sir John,Borlase Warren. He did not mean at that time to enter into a review of those circumstances which had indliced Government to change their measures, by repealing the Orders in Council. — The rights of this .colintrynEver had been seceded, and this the Right Honourable Gentleman would find when the documents were produced. As to the time when it could be in hiS power to lay the information before the House, he had to say, that it should be done as soon as an answer was received (if unfavoUrable) from the American Go vernment. Mr. CANNING and Mr. STEPHEN mutually ex plained. Mr. WHITBREAD asked how. long the Noble Lord would wait for an answer. ? Lord CAsT - LEREAGII said it depended on so many accidental circuMstances, that he could not exact ly. say. The Question being put ; the Report was order ed to be brought up and read, when • Mr.PONSONBY rose. He thought that the ex isting Government of one country could forin no. obstacle to that of any other country treating for Peace with it. He therefore thought that there • Was no reason.why, if a fair opportunity offered, this country . should not treat for, peace With the present Emperor of France; considering him ah stractedly as the head of the FrenCh Government, without regard to his character otherwise. If the Hon. Gentleman who wished for • peace, could prove that his Majesty's ;Ministers were deter= mined nut to make peace with Brion4parte; he (Mr. Ponsonby) Would to=morrow vote with. him fot an address to make Ministers try.whether an honourable peace Could not now 14 -made. The constitutional mode of acting in.sUch,a case would be, not to address the Prince Regent to enter into a ilegoeiation, but to pray him to remove his Mi nisters: By appealing to the Crown for peace ; we told our enemies,,, that we were compelled to make .peace, because unable to continue the way any longer... He ; however, thought that the pre sent season was not by any- means one in which the state of affairs rendered it politic or necessary for Us to have recourse to any such. expedient. Mr. WHITIIREAW rose , to explain: • -The 'Right Hon. Gentleman opposit“Mf. Canning) express ricaci”c. 11 •11 Iv% twth arwni,f<7 111.. n • , . bread) had heard. the dibctrine prOrnnlgated,that no treaty could be eritQied into w itlt the French EmPetOr.i . He could infOrth him, that he had fre 4uently,beard it atrion'g Men; wotneri, aitd chil dren. When Bponaparte Was raises! -to the Situ=. ation of Pir Consul; the Govertiruent of this country refuSed to treat with hini; he belieVed, upon_ do other'gi.diind than the character of the man.. It was a doctrineineulcated in •Isoo by the Government itself: jig remembered ',having a publication pot iiitO hand, liv the Cliurchwar.: deo of a parish in BedfoiNiiire; virhi,.!h was direct.•;• ed to be readfroin that ,publicaH.tion the g'anie principle was laid down; that no treaty could be safely commenced Or con - chided ywith such a uimi as was then at the head of the French Government. With repect Co s the-Subject of peace., he pledgCd hint lf that lie would again bring it forward soon after the recess.• Mr: CANNING begged leave to say a few Words in explanation. When the Hon; GentleMan , (Mr. Whitbread) stated his opinion that such a prin ciple was entertained, lie (Ilr. Canning), na • turally supposed that it was imputed to per- 7 sons in power, whoSe ()pintails on such a subject may. .tend, considerably either to the public injury or the public interest. Now, however; • from the Hon. Gentleman's -explanation, it turned out. that such a strong aversion to treat with Bo naparte was. only entertained in some private cir cles in which the Hon. Gentleinan mixed, It was only entertained by some men aad women; and by a yet more tende r p ar t o f soc i ety , b y t h e children. (A laugh.) He could not but rejoice that the youthful generation were growing up in ,such principles, and if there was any error in the excess of their zeal, it could not fail to be corrected 'when they came , into that House, and saw that no such principle was there allowed, and. that their vir tuons dispositions were not to be carrie'dso far. — The Hon. Gentleman referred to Lord Grenville's letter, but nothing could be more different tlian the situation of France now andin 1800: -At that time the people of France were subjected to an usurpation that was -yet green, and to treat with .its Government then might have given to it a degree of stability-Which it would not otherWiSe acquire. The case was quite different now, for the Government, such as it was, had at least some appearance of duration. He rose' merely to pro test against that basis of alarm which the Y4OO. .Gentleman had taken. But there was one paint to which be must allude,, and that was the part he himself had taken when the question of the Or ders in Council was discussed. When he saw the Opposition, as it was commonly called, and also the Government, disposed to the removal of them, he,. an humble individual, bad' nothing to do but simply to protest against the principle upon which that concession was Made to, America. Mr. BATHURST said, he did not know any thing of the publication to which the Hon. Gentleman alluded. If such a publication.was circulated, he was confident it was done without the knowle,te or consent of GOVernment. The Hon. Gentl6 , man, to prove any thing, should. have proved that such doctrine-was held oat by the Government. It was indeed true, that the nature and con:luct of the French Government was such as to render caution necessary in any treaty that thiS country may feel disposed to enter into with it. Mr.Witia - BREAD said, the publication was hand ed down to hiar7hy the Churchwarden ; and the matter of it was such as to prevent the Minister of the parish from reading it from the pulpit, as was directed. It was . sent through the Post Office, free of expense. . . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished 10 know the name of the publication. Mr. WHITBREAD answered, that he should send him the publication itself before Many hours should elapse. Mr. CANING wished to know at what time the subject of the East India Charter would be brought under the consideration of the House Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that it' would be in a shape to be brought forward some time after the •recess. The Report of the Address *as then agreed to, and ordered to be presented by the whole At nine o'clock the House adjourned. Fnoil VIE LONDON GAZETTE, Nov. C:s. - DIVIDENDS—At Guildhall, London. Dec. 19. W. Coles, Mincing-lane, broker, at eleven. • Dec. 19. J. Batson, nyder-street, St. James's, tailor, at 12. Dec. 22. W. P. Meeker, Basinghail-Street, merchant, at ten.; Dec. 19. J. Smith, Blue Anchor-lane, Bermondsey, paper-; maker, at eleven. Dee. 19. F. Henderson, Lothbury, merchant, at twelve. • Dec. 19. E. B. White, Chaml.er-Street, Goodman's-fields, WhitechapeL.cilrpenter, at eleven. Dec. 19. T. Hale, Worcester, glover, at twelye. Dec. 19. W. Visick, Medhurst, Sussex, draper, at eleven. Dec. 19. C. Fairbone, New-street, Fetter-lane, optician, at 10. Dec. 19. T. Thompson, sen, Waltham HOly Cross, Essex, shopkeeper, at eleven. ' • Dec. 19. It. James, New London-street, merchant, at eleven. Dec. 22. J. Hayward and G. Turney, Louden-street, mer , chants, at eleven. Dec. 19. J. Worhall and J. Thurston, Catherine-street, Strand, upholsterers, at ten. Dec. 19. H. G. Hilbert, New London-street, latrehant, at 11, Dec. Is. E. Lnrd, Ronghlee, within the Forest of Itossen dale, Lancaster, woollen-manufacturer, at four, at the Bull • Inn, Burnley. Dec. 22. S. Holland and T. Smith Williams, Liverpool, mer - chants, at one, at tt:e Gl , lbe Tavern. John-street, Liverpool. Dec. 22. It. Stelling, Norton., York; wool-dealer, at eleven, at the Talbot Inn, New Mutton. Dec. 22. J. Dear. Hommington, Wilts, carpenter, at tea, at the Spread Eagle Inn, New Sithith. ' CERTIFICATES—Dec. 19. • • . W. Jones, sen. Bristol, brush-manufacturer. •W. Morgan, Liverpool, pipe-maker T. Follett and J. Neale, Liverpool, merchants. B. Ray wood, Barnsley, York, linen-draper. J. Liverpool, merchant. , W. Hankins, Brewer-street, Golden-square, undertaker. . T. Gooch, Exeter, grocer. 'F. Harriett, Bishopsgate-street, china.man. J. Forrester, Savage-gardens, wine-merchant. Simpstin, Lloyd's Collcc-house, insurance -broker,. •.• J. BrOwn, sen.. and G. Brown, Croydon, Surrey, cheese- mongers. , A. Stewart and J. M. Minham, St. Mary Abbut4Kensinwtun - dealers. 0.-.EvanA, Upper East Smithfield,, glass. inerch474. J. Gamble, St. Neuts, Huntingdon, paper-malier.. -.. FROM TUE LONDON GAZETTE, DEC. ;y• BANKRUPTS. Edward Burr, Chatham, upholsterer, to surreuder.December 5, 12, and January 12, at ten, at Guildhall,• toadou. Attorney, Mr. dupp, Carpenter's-hall London-wall s .. Lawrence Willianr, late of Fencburch-street, merchant, De.- , ember 8, 15, and January 12, at ten, ut• don. Attorney, Mr. Scott, St. Mildred's-court, Poultry. 'Wharton Rye, Oxford-arert i .linen-dr.tper, December 5, 12, and January 12, at ten, at Guildhall, London. Attor nies, Mr. Mark Orevart, Wax-Chandler's-hall, Maiden-