The Sun. — London, England, 1812-07-02 00:00:00

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About half past three o'aloCk,athe Loan CEIAN tILLOR took his seat on the Woolsack, and short af ter prayers were read. the Royal Assent was given by Commission to ne Loan Bill, the Irish Glass Duties Drawback., the Militia Officers Allowances, the , -Plantation Sugar a n d C oWec Import Bill, the Irish Malt Dut-- '`'-3J the Laud Tax Sale Amendment, the Scots 'xcise Officers Allowance, the English Excise eel's, the-Whitby and - Margate Harbour Bills, and to one Private Bill. , • , The L or d s C omm i ss i oners were t h e Lord Chan .or, the 'Par], of Liverpool, and Lord Wal laugh a.m. Their Lordships then adjour ne d d ur i ng. plea- Nre. • About five o'clock the House resumed ; when theiri .Lordships proceeded to -forward the Bills 1 .7°1 - 1 the Table. Arno'no- these, the Southern hole Vishery, the West India- Trade, 'and the unlawful Oath's Bills, Were severally read a third ti ele., and passed. On the Motion of the Earl of LAUDERDALE, Se iler°. Documents referring to and illustrative of . ;e•claims of Mr. Palmer, formerly of the Post- t t ee, for additi on al re mun era ti on , were or d ere d 9 be laid before the House. 0 :a th e suggestion of the Earl of HARROW/3Ythe ', 'farther consideration of the Curates Bill, r r o ught in I;y * his Lordship) was postponed till c i daYse'Unight ; to' this he was induced by a de re, th a t t h e Bill , w h en t h orough l y amended, nat4.2' before Parliament and the country : an d ti •Y by a wish to press it then to the adoption of t Lordship's : 'but it was certainly his intention t ° take an e a rly o pp or t u nity nex t Session to bring "e subject. fully before the House. •_ ta ,:Lord GRENVILLE strongly approved-of the eiciPla of the Bill proposed bv . his Noble Friend. t _ .as a subject that merited the most serious at -0',41-on and the Most grave discussion on, the part i,their Lordships ; and he rejoiced .his Noble testwould afford the House that opportunity, t , t 't Scission. • It was impossible to contemplate , a e , n'r-ant s t a t e o f th e Cl er g y o f th e c o untry, a l ltt not to feel ev e n thenecessity of entering, at ti early period of the next Session, into the full• feunsideration of the subject to which the Bill re- Lr r ed ; and he trusted their Lordships general e~egwould turn -their attention t o it d ur ing th e e r he Earl of S UFFOLK sa id a f ew wor d s on th e e i e r-sion., and referred to a case withi n his know ge, in order to slew the necessity of some re for the- relief of the poorer clergy... vthequestion for the se con d rea di ng o f P a l- , r r s Compensatio n Bill .on. Friday next, '`.he Earl of LAUDERDALE strongly objected to a e 'r Lordships coming to any speedy decision on j b easure, which he conceived of very serious c'Portance. .lire contended that their Lordships o n uld not with any degree of propriety-decide up- - . 1 ; 1 e the until they were fully masters' of the ipvl e .essy information respecting the case out of a "cla the Bill grew . Th ere . was a report re aPecting'.it from a C o m m itt ee o f that House, b" also one communicated to their Lordships- Y the Commons, . and which could not be t . 41 Y so as to -be adequately considered against He begged- the -House to pause, before ti e oncurreil, in the present situation o f the coun tj in a measu re w hi c h wen t t o con f er on an in -I`,.vidtial a sum of 75 , 0001 . ' an d 9, 0001 . per annum. e requested th e y wou ld reco ll ec t, t h a t b y a Bill 114-1 b cew bef ore th e rl ont ' e , t h e remunerat i on pro f°-`led to the'Great Officers of State was trifling '•. be en compared to that proposed by the Bill .'in r es tion. He therefore ,again requested their o rdships would wait until they had the tieces t o a rY information. upon the subject, -before they dec i d ed.. . . The Earl of MoiaA (who had/proposed tlre'se "nd reading as above) said he should- certainlype' sist in his motion respecting the Bill, on Fri- . a Y. He did not think the documents adverted o e by th e N o bl e E ar l would,go to affect the merits' r the justice of the case : they were of no itri prtance'with:reapect to the exceptperhaps • fr : :0 31. Points of reference in the-course ofthe debate. ded i „ 4 , the day mentioned, he.- should - press far the of the House. . . • i ehe LORD CH4NCELLOR observed, that he . th °lll d have nil difficulty as to iris vote respecting w e measure' in question : his' present opinion e aa, that it was his duty to oppose the Big, in Il c ry way in which it may present itself to the Ous e , Lord RE DESDALE , in c onsequence o f th e im tc)rtant discussion which stood: for this even tlF-g. postponed his motion for the commitment ti the Bill to provide for the bett er Atlininistra :ll of Justice mail Monday, which, lie thought, :11d be a convenient day for the Noble-Lords. a}2'revious to the principal Order of the pay be -4g'entered upon, The Duke of NORFOLK -observed, that lie had b ee n: in several o f th e P u bli c Ne ws p a p ers ,- anum , er of Resolutions, purporting -to hav e b een a M a t kgreed t o a t an . Aggregate Meeting of the c) lies of Ireland.. lie did not wish to draw the Itentio n of the House to those proCeedings ; ( 7 1 t, he w i S h e d .to l earn from .SOITIC Noble Lord ii PPosite, w h et h er t h ey k new t h at a statem e nt h e „ I tcl seen in a paper of that morning, importing, ttat at an extraordinary meeting of the Catholics h eld sub sequent l y , t h e i r regret at t h e a d opt i o n -o f e : er tain resolutions which he all u ded t o , was ex vressed, was well founded ? ta Lord Viscount SIDMOUTIf answered across'the b l* (Eta we could collect) that his Majesty's Go vernment had no authentic information on the' 1 . subject. CATHOLIC QUESTION. The Order of the Day upon which their Lord• ships were summoned being read, The Marquis .IYel a i.est EY rose.. Before he called their LOrdships attention to The most im-- portant subject of which he had the • honour of giving notice on a former evening; he should, be said, slightly,glance at some of the modes and dis positions in which that subject had formerly bean • received and discussed by the Legislature of the United liindotn. • He meant on the occasion of those discussions which had directly arisen from the Petitions formerly presented by the Catholics.. The subject had • not only been treated with ne glect and inattention, but pointed at with every appearance of contumely and contempt ; it was even regarded 'as . an object of compassion and commiseration.. In that state of the question some per Sons, much he thought to their honour, distinguished themselvesb - y their.exertions in sup ' pori: of it, and with a view to the furtherance of the just and temperate prayer and tcnour of those documents. It Was utterly impossible to avoid • noticing' also, the ground and , principle upon which' the question, to which he was about so decidedly to advert, had been treated and consi .dered by the Legislature,and the governing policy • of th'e' country, through a long series of ages— they werentterly4listinct from those upon which Most or all other political topics had been coe sidered and :'decided. It was a principle that scented to embarrass all the received maxims of state, or, yather the question, how long so large a:description of their . fellow-subjects, not•ccin forming to the established religion of tlie State, should be excluded from the.pale, and,body of the Constitution ? It seemed to be left to the7occur refaces of chance and accident: A great deal had been said of the Legislative s'ystem by which ,the COnstitution in Church and 'State had' been forti ,fied and secured - ; but it would be a disrespect to their Lordships to call the laws now existing, by which so large a portion of their fellow-sulnects were' aggrieved and excluded, a system s .they pos lessed no character whateier of a system,' They never yet had an opportunity of considering this important question as a great whole., and the causes why the personal interests and feelings of so nu mesons a - body-were brought into their present condition. It would appear as if the minds ,and eyes of men were turned aside from. the consi deration of the dtEtails of the subject ; which 'seemed to be left open to every thing that could embarrass or distract the public mind with respect to it. . Was the season, he Would ask, now come in which they could fully refer, to this great ques tion? .Was the season arrived in which it was exempt from all those accidental circumstances that touched it'in various times.? Was the time at length come in which this' most important of - all questions could be 'considered and discussed -upon the general Principles of national justice, upon which were founded all those considerations which conferred upon this country its pre-emi- • nences in liberty, in law, in property,, and in reli gion ! With respect to the . aggregate mass of laws to which he had alluded, he repeated, be could not characterize them 'as' a system. He had therefore to 'request of their Lordships that they would examine•the subject in question, upon'. the same principles and in "the way they would examine Any proposition essentially referring to 'any great branch of the existing constitution . of the country; and whether. 'the system .so long.. upheld was in its theory,, in its principle, or in its frame, so finely moulded', by the, 'suggestions of ' ancient wisdom, witl4out any defect upon the face • of it ; so beautiful in its shape and form, as that they 'ought not to enter into consideration of its merits or effects; that they would 'consider whetherl or not these effects, in practice and in point of fiact, were or were not advantageous. He would further request the House - to consider whether the effects of . such a system, operating even. upon. 'its awn principles, its effects taken upon every part of the United Kingdom; were. such as tended to produce happiness, satisfaction, liberty, or . even security to the Church EstablishMents, that ob ject fbr which that part of the system to which' -he referred was avowedly designed. Its practical effects he • begged the House most . seriously to 'consider. They would further , and more . closely have, to consider whethe r grea t er ev il s would not be incurred by their keepirig tip, than by their endeavouring to correct such a system. Another consideratiOn for the House would be, .whether the particular time or mode in which be pressed the Resolution he was about to submit, were so ob-. jectiOnable, as to render it necessary to reject the proposition. 'He was anxious the subject should be -considered in such away, that every Noble Lord may have an opportunity'of stating his distinct Objec tion to, or acquieseence in every part ofe it. In considering this important subject, he would first point their Lordships attention to the state of the Roman Catholics in England—they were -com pletely disqualified from either sitting in Parlia ment; or voting for Members—and incapacited for - all 'offices, civil or He believed .no question could exist as to the coquet of the Eng lish Catholics, for a long series of time : it was. exemplary for its loyalty ; they had practically evinced their sincere attachment to the Conatitu tion and Government - of the Country. They would next look to the , situation and circum stances in which the Catholics of Ireland Were placed. • These had been admitted. to a certain, but a very limited participation of the benefits of the Constitution. By an A'ct of the Irish Parlia ment, the principle of their capacity to all offices was ,admitted_; but, at the same time, they were disqualified eo nomine from every office that could be important or desirable : they. were admitted to the bar, but were prevented from rising into situ ations in. which they could serve the CroWn.— 'These concessions were only shfficient to excite sentiments of :discontent. That spirit 'must arise out of the very-concessions theniSelves. Sqch coneeesions would naturally inspire into every English or Irish breast, for he knew no difference, a confident hope, that persons so admitted were qualined- for proceeding further, but they were prevented. He next adverted to the case of the military profession: In this their 'admissions Pro ceeded on the same principle,; encouragement to a certain point was-held out, and then the hopes which 'were fostering were blasted; for beond that point they were nut to go ; and hare he could not avoid regarding the 'principle of contrast Which was suffered to prevail with respect to the Irish and the English Catholics, when the uni form loyalty and attachment of the latter were never called in question. In another point of view, ,he could not .blit consider the principle , adopted as grossly'iinpolitic : a certain degree of political power was confided to a description of people who, , in general, regarded considerations of the kind on, no other principle, than that of their own strength. He would next most serie! onsly beg .the attention of their Lordships to tie situation of the Catholics in Scotland, in that co o tintey, in his view of the case, they were,. un der the Act of - 1 1 793, rendered eligible to every office, civil or military ; they Were restricted how ever front voting or sitting in s Parliinient. Not- withstanding the eligibilities to which he alluded, these persons Were liable to be prosecuted for ' exercising their religion l He would ask, how these indulgencies granted to the Catholics, of Scotland had ever, in the least degree e tended iliju riously to the interests of the EStablisited' Church' in that part of the Island Even the High Cothmis- sioner to the Kirk of Seotla.nd may be a Catholia. These obVious 'and irreeoneilable disparities and in congruities should be an 'additional inducement to • the Legislature to endeavour to,bringethe whole to some regular system. The existence Of these various restraints, he musecontend, were in theory, con= trary to every principle ofnational. justice : it was, printa . facie, a gross- injustice, when no necessity could be shewnlor the continuance of such re straints. In the next place, they were contrary to the spirit of the Christian religion ; it .chished with this, to impose upon any dOeription of Christians any civil disability, or ade privation of civil rights on account of their religious opinions; and he would assert, it was for these opiniods that the restrictions Were continued ! He would say hirther; that any thing in the nature of op pression upon Oren, or any withholding of civil right on such account Was,,rimafacie,' contrary to every principle upon which the reformed reli gion was introduced. Its principles were adver.§e . to every species of intolerance ; nay, the system itself was unjust even upon its ' own principles. The restrictions were imposed merely in conse quence of the state of things at. the. periods in - which they were provided, in consequence -of the existing state of things, foreign, and domestic. In the first place, their origin: was founded in the jealousy, perhapS , justly entertained, atthe state of things iri Europe; especially the pre valent power of, the Pope. In ;the reign of 'James the First the apprehensions which were entertained of the preponderance of the Romish religion and the Papal power,' caused, the kgis lative restrictions which ,were adopted at that pe ! riodi (L n the two subsequent reigns, anti uring the period of the civil dissension, the same apprehen sions snore or less preponderated—they, in no case, had any ground of justification, save the urgent sense of 'the circtiinstantes:of the thiles.,- - Some temporary occasional principle always.pte- vailede---and the fears which were-entertained of P r opiSh'succession before the second James canie to . the Throne; - suggested the restrictive laws at. that time. 'ln the early parts of William's reign, a favourable disposition towards the Catholics was thought to prevail on the part of the Govern-' matt : it certainly manifested' itself to be actuated . by .principles of toleration ; but When XIV. its most - poeVeful Prince, in the face of. all Enrol*" acknowledged a Popih Pretender to the Crown of these realms, that illustrious Prince ; King. William, and his Ministers, found •ethemT selves limier the necessity,. as they thought, of _passing several' laws against "theltoman Catho lies. ..They had heard'nmeh of the great names of Lord` Somers and Lord Ilardwicke ; they were . great and :venerable .names :—and if he erred in any opinions faVourable to the system of policy which he (Lord 'W.) sb decidedly' advoeetdd, he erred in common with these great au illustrious characters. At, the period when the councils of Lord SomerS preptinderated, Louis XIV. Was . the very zenith of his power, and had openly af- e forded his support to ae Popish Pretender to the English Throne at that very time ; it was well known, there were men; even in the Council of King William, who were favourably disposed to wards a - Popish successor.' Under these, circum stances, it was not justified, hut deemed expedient to enact these laws, merely for the lie,ervtition",of the existing system against the Catholics, who were then comparatively numerous and powerful, supported by a Popish Pretender, and encouraged by the Pope, then in the full vigour of his. autho rity : it was then thought expedient to have every additional'security for the support of the Protes tant establishments: He therefore desired to enter his protest against any consideration - of the prin ciple acted upon by that great character, further than it' was applicable to temporary objects, 'called for by 'the apparent necessity of the case. :lie had a similar declaration to make with respect to the conduct of Lord Hardwicke, who counselled, in that respect, at a period .when a Popish Pre , - tender had actually invaded the kingdom : that was the basis on which he founded that part of his political conduct. So urgent was the Occasion r • LPRICE SIXPENCE-HALFIF.NNY. . . . Judged, that the friends of. "that nnforterutte Prince; Peers of the realm, were- doomed to ter iiiinate their lives. upon a scaffold. : Were they now, he would ask, 'tinder apprehensions of that kind ? Weie they now called on to act upon any such principle .as that which actuated those illustrious Peers ? e Was there any pretence . : continuing those baneful restraints . , ate. the grOund of securing the House of Brunswick against a Popish' Pretender to its lawful pos sessions ? Was there any point or particle •of similarity, . between the cases and times., now and then ? No ! they were perfectly dis tinct in every- feature.—They lied the autho . rihy of Lord Somers and Lord Hardwicke, tit .t they had grounded those restrictive measures which- they had, respectively advised, on' the evident necessity of the Cases ; and, as . such; only ' applicable to the occasions. whiCh called for them. The protections of that tune were not'wholiy re straints on Papists, but political engagements agaenst igh etreason. They were extensions of the statute of the 7th of Anne, and the restric tiohs which \they contained (particularly that of the 17th of George H.) were to expire on the death of thee family of the Pretender. • Did not' this slim that the whole piewisions ct those acts referred to the state of .eireunistancesat thet period, and to their probablehluration I Thorne circumstances, as connected with the: family of the Pretender, had ceased to exist. '['hose laws had theeefhce ceased to exist.e 7 Wirit remained ? The Pope—,and 'the do6triues attributed 'to - the Catholics. And, first, - with respect-to the Pope : he. could not refrain from 6:pressing . his astonish ment at the Course of -argument adhpte7d. 'on that part of the subject: in several publications, and. particularly ,in one froM the pen of a NhbleLerd, it head / been contended that greater danger'Was to be ar r eehencied from the intlneuce.Of -the Pope in consequence - of the reconciliation between the Peipe and Bhonapatte, -Whet had beevi the nature of that reconciliation ? .The object of Buohaparte l „ :as his views extended, had been-to subjugate the whole of Italy to the Irtm Crown. Lie conceived, it desirable to annex the rich temperaiities of the Pope to that Crown, anil he did so annex them. Was it probablethat in doing this, he attached the Pope to his interest ? And yet some contend= ' ed., that this% increased the "danger ! Some con teaded that the Pope enjoyed .his -.ancient autho rity, and that he was-disposed to use it subject to the influence of BuOnaparte ! Could those who _maintained these opinions point out the smallest use of -the Papal authority in the present times ; or even a single instance in which that authority had been 'in the slightest degree recognised by . BuonaparSerhimself ? Nay, if he were not 'Misin formed, nothing that the-Pope could do,, under the circumstances in which he was at present placed,. would be recognized, even by his en'en Church. His authority was thtiS evidently exhin guished ; the facts - shelved thas it Was so. If the authority of the. Pope actually existed,. had there been nh temptation to exercise it for the further ance of lltiodaparte's_ views he--Had there been no so to 'exercise it in Spain ? Had there been no temptation so. to exercise it in Portugal ? Had there ‘,eete no temptation so to exercise it in the Spanish Colohies ? -Had ally _attempt been - made in any plaCe to - use the authority of the Pope for thte purphse-of advancing the intereste Of France lf uot o was not the fair inference thet Buouaparte considered that authority as 'having Lam dead-beira ? Would he not otherwise have endeavhured to avail himself of it •h - But his object in senbjegatint. the Papal. dominions vas to "seize, not the Po,e's spiritual influence, but his terriporal pos cessions. -Ifethis ivere so, he-asked the.sl - Iyho • talked of tlangers.to be , apprehended frown the,powyer of:the Pope—where that power- - existed ? It had been. destroyed in Rome. It lihd been-destroyed in the othereatlolic countries of Fee rope. Wh yee even the 'Pope resided he kneW not. The. Papa'ianthority had been extinguished' . by Btionaparee, who had.set up his own' inlien of it.. So muelh'fhr the danger to' be apprehended from the Pope. • -With respect to the second thedoe - triues held by the Catholic Church, \vhat was state of that, question ?—He 'contended that the influence of the Pope - over the teat on] off - of the Catholics (or over the spiri''ie as they bore .Upon the temporal), had been completely 'abjured by them: The Cathoiics• denied the eXistence of any such authoeity. Whenever ihterebghtede they told those by ; , vitoin th . ey were eXaironed, that such a doctrine had never beer: heldby them; or that if ever held, it was 'not now heid . , in the oaths which the Catholics bad taken, thevrenottne, ed the temporal authority of the 'lope.' All the learned Catholic 'Universities concnrred in rev,-' nouneing that opinion. • Pius VI. the last free Pope,'in the exercise of his.freedom, renounced that principle. But it was e.esertedrbyeome;that it Was not renounced by. the authority by- which it was at first esXablished. The'doctrine 'proceeded originally front a General Connell, and it seemed that it had not been renounced by a Getforal Coun cil. This was a stronger reason than any other for believing that the principle. had ceased. There had been no. General Council, at which a fOemal reuunciation . could have taken place, The com plaint then wa,i, that the 'authority whence this principle first proceeded Lid not now exist, and could not be revived. Was this a proof of danger ? Under all these impressions he would again: - call upon their Lordships—he would- ask them 'if. the general spirit and frame of the haws against the Catholics-e-elaws, inconsistent with the character of the British. Constitution, inconsistent with .the equal d>cussion of civil and religious rights; founded on circumstances of a temporary nature, winch had ceased' to exist, supported by the ap prehension of danger no where to he found—he asked if their Lordships would mt,intainthatthis frame'oflaWs, abounding with anomalies hie - Ong- .:~~.rs