The Sun. — London, England, 1837-12-02 00:00:00

the ground of their not affording religious education, although he himself knew perfectly that some were conducted in the best possible manner. Lord BROUGHAM said that in rising to explain the out lines of the different Bills he was about to introduce and crave the honour of being read a first time, he felt he ought to state the reasons why be adopted a course, not the most ordinary, namely of opening the nature of the measures before the details had been submitted to the House. Were he to wait till the Bills were printed, and then take up the debate on the second reading, stating the ground on which he thought the measures ought to receive the support of their Lordships, he felt he should not be rendering justice either to the framers of the measures or their promotqrs. He should no longerhave the opportunity of removing some dbjections that might stand up in the arrangement of this plan ; and coming after those objections, unanswered as they would be, had taken root in the minds of some of their Lordships, he should hardly consider that he had exercised ordinary care. lf it were said that he might take the chance of their Lordship's attention being given to the Bills, in the intervals between the Bills being read a first and second time, he had alas ! already been fa voured with an answer to that in what had dropped from the Right Rev. Prelate and from his Noble Friend the Lord Privy Seal—neither of whom seemed to think that these measures had ever before been before the House ; both of whom seemed to think that he was about to bring in a new plan, and the Right Reverend Prelate having actually stated that he was wholly unacquainted with his ( Lord Brougham's) plans and views on the subject. He did not blame those Noble Lords for not having paid any attention to these Bills when before the House on former occasions. He did not blame them for now thinking he was about to break open a new plan, and to tread over an untrodden field—stating plans which were now for the first time to be explained to their Lordships—because that was the fate of all Bills. Noble Lords would not give them their attention until they were forced upon their minds, and until they were compelled to act upon them.—( Hear, hear.) The subject was brought before the House last session. On the very first night of the Session the Education Bill was brought in, read a first time, ordered to be printed, and actually printed ; and for the purpose of preventing the confusion that usually arose, from reading a plan in the form of a clause in an Act of:Parliament, he took the liberty of circulating with the Bill a very full extract and digest of all the provisions of the measure—he would not say for the purpose of preventing their Lordships from pretended ignorance ; hut that at all events they should not have the ordinary excuse which arose from the tedium of reading an Act of Parlia ment.—( Hear, hear.) At the end of the Session the subject was broached again. It was not attended to at the beginning of the Session, because it was then too early ; it was not attended to at the end of the Session because it was then too late.—( Laughter.) He could not say it was not attended to at the early part of the Session, because the House had then too much business—because it had then just none at all—and for some time afterwards it did just as much, namely—nothing. —( A laugh.) Public business prevented their Lordships attending to it at the end of the Session. One deplorable event, the death of his late Majesty ; and another event which produced uni versal joy, the accession of her present Majesty. It was incidental to those events that matters of this kind should not be attended to ; accordingly not from the pressure of business, but from the lively interest that was t Aaen in the scenes that was then passing no attention was paid to them. One Bill, then, which I have now to bring forward is in its principles the same as that which I first introduced; but in ieference to the second Bill there has been some alteration in the measure originally proposed, and this is now introduced for the first time. With respect to this second Bill, I may say that I had last session anticipated the necessity for its intro duction would have been obviated by my Hon. Friend who was then Member for Middlesex having brought forward a mea sure in the House of Commons, but that having fallen to the ground, I was left to devise some new provision to supply the deficiency caused by it, and the matters therefore contained in the second Bill I have to present to the House are now brought before your Lordships for the first time. In all other re spects the Bills are the same. It is true that the Bill has been divided into two, that part which relates to education ge nerally having been separated from the portion which has re ference to the better administration of charitable funds, and this division has t aken place for obvious reasons. I think, my Lords, that I shill best discharge my duty to yotir i.ordships and to the great subject which I have to introduce, especially as the point le:s been indirectly discussed in the conversation which took place this night as well as in that which occurred two nights since, if I begin by stating what appear to me to be the great general principles to be followed in any attempts which we may make towards the improvement, the exten sion, and the perpetuation of the education of the people ; and if after having stated these general principles, I then state the particular principles drawn, not only from the policy of every country, but also from the peculiar circumstances of this country and of the present time. No one is more aware than myself of the difference which exists between universal principles which are applicable to all countries and to all times, and those principles which are drawn from the pecu liar circumstances of the present time and of this country ; and without minutely attending to this material distinction it will be impossible for our labours to come to a good result. After detailing these general principles, I shall proceed to . unfold the several points of the particular measure to which I wish on the present occasion to direct your Lordships' notice. First, I think, my Lords, that there ought to be, in no time, in no cuuotry, whatever may be the Constitution of the country, and no state of society, any positive and direct compulsion as to the education of the people. I am aware, my Lords, that some most respectable persons differ from me on this subject—they ore not a nu merous body, but they are of great weight, because they have paid much attention to the subject, and because al. most all of them are possessed of great general information; but still I cannot help feeling assured that they have been led away by looking at the circumstances peculiar to the se veral countries in which such a system exists. My opinion of the system pursued in those countries and of these cireum stances is, that they are totally inapplicable to our own situa tion, and that they are absolutely pernicious; and that per sons have been led away in consequence of the mitigation of the compulsory system, in consequence of the situation of the states in which it exists, and that, instead of seeing what might work well there might be bad in itself, they had been led to believe that the compulsory system should be adopted here; they have been the more led away from their honesty, a-dour, and z' al for public instruction ; and they have not brought their own minds to the due considere.tion that there is a line over which the lawgiver ought not to pass, and beyond which we lose all claim to support, by the violation of some of the most sacred principles. If I wished to demonstrate thoroughly that a compulsory system ought not to be intro duced, I would put it to any person of common reflection, whether it were safe and right, whatever might be the temp tation arising from the deficiencies in the existing state of education, from the risk to be incurred from igno rance, from the duty of the parents, from the mis- chii•f which may arise, haunt, and infect 119- from the Leglect .of this duty, to usurp the duty of the parent to the offspring, and to place in its stead the public authority of the State, to treat the directian of the child's studies as a civil office, and to take away the parental care of the offspring from the person to whom nature has committed the charge? An other answer to such a suggestion is, that it is a violation cf individual liberty—that by this means a tyranny would be established, and tbus, in order to educate, we'shall enslave the people ; in order to diffuse instruction we contract liberty, and we shall introduce a system which is alike novel, horrid, and unbearable to the citizens of a free state; and this we shall do because under a foreign Go vernment and a despotic rule the system had not rendered the previous slavery absolutely unbearable. This is my decided opinion.—(lnterruption in the House.) If Noble Lords will neither read nor hear, I am not surprised at their want of knowledge on the subject. I know the dryness of the subject, but I trust they will at least bear with me while I state my views on this important question.—( Hear.) The next general rule which I would lay down as fit to govern the supporters of any measure of compnlsion is, that not only should there be no compulsion, but there should be no inter ference by the Government as to who shall or shall not be edu cated ; and that their power should not be extended beyond what is absolutely necessary-, but, also, that there should be no strict rule as to the course which the education of the people shall take. I shall look with a very jealous eye on any inter ference by the Government as to the line of instruction which shall be pursued ; .for it would be no more nor less than a tyranny that the Government shall have power to say what course of education the scholars shall go through. They should not interfere with the kind of instruction to be pur sued, the method which may be taken for imparting that in struction, or the books which ought to be read. In all this there should be no interference; it should be entirely uncon trolled, and left to the choice of the individuals themselves. —( Hear, hear.) I would allow no Board or law to con trol it, and I would permit neither the Executive Govern ment nor the Legislature to interfere and prescribe any general and fixed plan, for the determining of which the Legislature and the Government are equally unfitted. I will presently show how these great principles may be so modi fied as to obtain the object which we seek—the better education of the people—without the breach of the principle itself. In like manner I think that no Government ought to have the power of appointing the persons who are to educate the people ; tiro) , ought not to be entrusted with the power of saying who are to be the parties from whom the public are to receive the benefit of secular instruction ; for if any one were to give me the power of naming the teacher, without super intendence or control as to the fitness of the person ap pointed, I should not much trouble myself to obtain the power of prescribing the course of instruction, for, were any fixed upon, I should be as confident that it would be as much violated as ifany Act of Parliament, or a Board, were to say what course shall be taken ; both the one and the other are unfit for the task, and even if fit would be the most improper parties to say what books shall be read, what subjects shall be taught, and what shall be the order or plan of education. Although lam stating my opinion that no compulsory authority ought to exist on these matters, and t bough I consider that this is the corner -stone of any plan be adopted, yet I am disposed to add that I would adopt, any modifications, not any exceptions, but concurrent i nciples, by which we remove all difficulties, without cx osing ourselves to the evils of interference. This, though decidedly against any compulsion, I am disposed to hold out nducements to parents to perform their duty, for all of us are aware that it is a duty strictly devolvirg upon the parent to take care of his offspring's education, and though th e breach of this duty be a great sin, and a moral offence, yet it is not such an offence as can be reached by law ; and from this very circumstance it becomes the more necessary, without any violation of principle, and without any breach of the liberty of the people, to hold out incentives, encouragements, and excitement to individuals to discharge this duty, and you 1 many which were called such by courtesy, or which by cour tesy, and courtesy only, had the name of school applied to them, and to the operations pursued in which the application of the term teaching was also by courtesy applied, were no more fit to be called schools—if by the name of schools were meant places in which anything was taught, and if by the term teaching were implied the communication of some know ledge by some method which enabled the attendants to learn, and which added something to the acquirements which were previously possessed by the pupil—they no more deserved the names by which those things were known than did any other operation to which no person would ever dream of applying the term instruction. No doubt many of the schools at present in existence afforded admirable instruction to the pupil attending them ; and it was as certain that there were scarcely any, however good, in which the sys tem of instruction was not capable of some improvement, if judiciously introduced. He did not mean to say that the misapplication of the name of school to places in which instruction was pretended to be imparted referred to any of the great schools ; it did not refer either to the semi naries commonly designated National Schools, or to those established under the superintendence of the British and Fo reign School Society—seminaries which he believed to be well conducted ; but the misapplication was to the places called schools, to the operations pursued in which the name of teach ing could by no kind of flattery or courtesy be legitimately given. He believed that in a large number, he thought in more than one-half of the whole 40,000 unendowed schools, the education afforded was exceedingly imperfect. He believed he should not at all overstate the fact, were he to add that at least one-fourth—he was confident above one-fifth—but at least one-fourth of these schools were in such a state of dis cipline and accommodation—of indiscipline, he meant, of course, and utter want of accommodation—and in respect of capacity and learning, those appointed to conduct them were so utterly unprovided, that, except by courtesy and by an ex cess of flattery, they could not be called otherwise than pre tended schools. That immediate steps should be taken to cor rect this they were all agreed, and the Right Rev. Prelate bad most justly observed that there was no one course which could be taken by the Legislature more sound or mo r e beneficial for improving the kind of education to be given at the schools than that of providing a large supply of well-taught and properly remunerated schoolmasters. At present there was no se curity for the continuance of the existing schools in any given district. In many parts of the country, and la eicularly in those places where education was most wanted—he meant in great cities and large manufacturing towns—where the number of schools was most defective, and the kind of teach ing was most lamentably deficient, this insecurity was espe cially felt. In some of the great towns of the north, and, he would say, in the metropolis itself, where education was most of all wanted, people were not to be found who had the power of lending their assistance towards the education of them selves or others. They had neither time to give labour nor a purse to afford money, and yet these were the places where education was most wanted, and for which, therefore, of course it was most incumbent on the Legislature to provide the means. It was with a view to meet all these purposes, and after considering the course which was proper and fit to be taken, that he imposed on himself the task of framing a measure in the course of last session to which he had since added those points that appeared to him necessary to make his plan complete, and to which he would now beg to call their Lordships' attention more particularly in detail. In the first place, it seemed to be on all hands admitted that whether they were to go further in the way of making grants of money or not, at any rate a public department was essentially necessary— called abroad the Department of Public Instruction, but which we should call the Education Department. This de partment was absolutely necessary if it were only for the purpose of making a judicious application of the public money. Accordingly, the plan which lie had prepared con sisted in the first place in the establishing of such a Board. His object now was to call their Lordships' attention to the duties which that Education Board would have to discharge. This formed the subject of the first Bill which he intended to submit to their Lordships. With respect to those duties relating to the superintendence and administration of charity funds, to the remedies for breach of trust, to the better and proper application of the funds for the puroposes of education, they were all matters of arrangement to be considered by themselves, and which would exclusively form the subject of a separate Bill. This division of the :object into two" Bills was adopted for various good reasons. Many persons felt a great difficulty with respect to a le gisletiee measure relating to the administration of chat ities who experienced no difficulty at all with respect to the duties of an cducatio t Beard. 'I hat was his reason, therefore, for separating the subject. It ceuld net perhaps be ultimately separated, because such a Board could not properly dis charge its duty without having some control over the applica tion of the charity funds. The Boerd, as it was originally pro posed by him, was to consist cf three paid Commissioners, not removable unless by address to the Crown by both Houses of Par liament. To these were added three Ministers of State and the Speaker of the House of Commons. But in the plan he now prof osed he had omitted the Speaker of the House of Com mons, and had also omitted one of the Ministers of State, so as to make the Board consist of two Ministers of the Crown and three life members. It was needless to state why he had made this change. Many persons were of opinion that the Speaker could have no time to devote to this subject; and it being avowedly his ( Lord Brougham's) intention that the Speaker` should only interfere in eases of an extraordinary na ture, where his experience and authority would be required, he (Lord Brougham) thought, upon the whole, that it might be proper to omit the Speaker altogether. Then, with re spect to the omission of one of the Ministers of State, many persons were of opinion that it would be as well to reduce the number of Ministers on the Thud to two, which would at the same time avcid the inconvenience of having an even num ber of members constituting the Board. Accordingly two Ministers only were retained. It was necessary that there should be some members of the Government on the Board, because there were many things in which the concurrence of Ministers would be required. If he were asked what those things were which made it necessary to have the constant in terposition of a Minister of the Crown, his answer was, that under the proposed system there would be grants of money, and there would be the administration of those grants; and it was well known that they could not entrust the task of distri buting those grants to any Board of Commissioners with that degree of confidence that would be felt were the distribu tion of them made with the concurrence of a Minister of the Crown, whom both the country and the Parliament who made the vote would look to as responsible. The Noble and Learned Lord proceeded to detail other portions of the plan, but in so very low a tone of voice that it was impossible for those stationed in the gallery to hear him for a considera ble time. We understood hint to say that it was not intended that the Ministers of the Crown who were members of the Beard should have any power with respect to the appoitaments of schoolmasters, in order to prevent the possibility of turning the authority of the Beard to purposes of abuse, nomination, and political jobbing. Having stated who were to constitute the Beard, the next questions were, what powers were to be vested in them, and what was the Board to do for the pur poses of improving and extending education ? In the first place, they were to distribute the grants made from time to time by Parliament, and the funds which were now as the law at present stood, or which, as the law respecting charity funds might hereafter be made, might become disposable by that Board for the purpose of education. In the next place, the Board were to have the power, but with the concur rence of the local authorities—and to this point, before he proceeded farther, he prayed the particular attention of their Lcrdships. The great leading principle of the Bill, grounded on those , rules which he began to state before he en tered into details, was, that there should be a concur rence in every case of the local authorities—that was to say of the people amongst whom education was to be planted or extended, or improved—with the central body before any change whatever could take place in any one of them. He thus took security, on the one hand, against too great an inter ference on the part of the Government—against abuse arising from that interference, against too great power being exercised by Government, against control over the education of the people by Government ; and, on the other hand, he took se curity against what was also a possible risk and to be carefully provided against, namely, against local abuses, against a dis position on the part of local authorities for any peculiar pur poscs to obtain possession of funds which they ought not to hare, or to raise funds even amongst themselves which they ought not to be permitted to raise. He thus tcok security against both the local and central authorities, by requiring, in every instance, the joint concurrence of both the one and the other. Their Lordship would presently perceive how the Bill was calculated to work out these objects. The country, for the purposes of this measure, might be considered divided into two descriptions of persons—one into Municipal Cor porations, whose local affairs were committed to Town Councils who represented the people ; the other into those districts of the country lying beyond the bounds of any Municipal Corporation, where the people had no councils, nor any body in whom the functions exercised in Corporate towns were vested ; in short, where, in his apprehension, there was not at present existing any competent, safe, and beneficial body to discharge those duties whichwere entrusted to Corpo rations. Now, supposing both the one and the other of this description of persons to desiderate the application of the pro visions of the Bill he wished to introduce, it became incum bent on him to show in what manner those provisions would work. Suppose in any town or parish there was a great defi ciency found iii the means of instruction : it might either be that there was no school, or that there were too few schools, or it might be that the schools already existing were of a bad description, and ill provided with teachers, or it might be that two or more of these defects, or all of them joined together (which he was afraid was too often the case), existed. Imme diately, and of course, an attempt would be made, when the Bill came into operation, to amend these defects by providing a sufficient supply, or a better kind of education, or by extend ing the number of schools, or improving those that existed. But the town council of the place could do nothing of itself. It must make its application to the, Education Department. It must lay an estimate before the Board, with all the particulars of the wants complained of. It must lay a plan before the Board, an estimate of what was required: it must also lay be fore the Board a statement of the kind of schools required in re spect of teaching the different branches of education to be taught, the mode of teaching beat adapted for the purpose of their local situation, and also a statement in respect of the rules and regulations for the management of the school, for the choice of the teachers, for the discipline and for the visitation and inspection of the schools, and for the relations between the schools and the patrons. All these rules must by the Town Council or the new local authorities (of which he should after wards speak) be prepared and laid before the Board, with the reasons for requiring the sanction of the Board to their pro posals. If the Board, on listening to the reasons, were con vinced, on examining the plan, approved of it, i, above a and on scruti nisingll the estimates had no objection to them— f, and first of all, after examining accurately the rules and regu will thus gain your object without riels, and it may be effected by mixing good and cheap education, and rendering it easily attainable. For myself, my Lords, I would even go a step further; I would take stepi for the amendment of the law; which might incidentally have a very beneficial tendency. I have often heard it proposed to frame the laws in such a manner as to give a direct discouragement to ignorance. My Noble and Learned Friend opposite will recollect a sugges tion that the Statute of Frauds, which requires every contract relating to land to be in writing, should apply to all contracts whatsoever. My Noble Friend reminds me that this is al ready the law of other countries, and I believe that it is so in France. It would have the effect of placing under some slight disability those who are unable to write. I have no great objection, therefore, on occasions where we can do so without great interference with right, to extend the rules of the State's interference in the administration of a man's domestic affairs, and where there is quite a clear ground for our interference, where we are absolutely certain that our direction and plan are, correct, and that we are fully justified in the attempt, not only to extend excite ments and incentive to the discharge of this duty beyond mere encouragement, and to render its neglect disadvanta geous to the parties concerned, if not to make it attended with serious consequences. The propriety of the penal inter ference of the State, however, even in matters of acknow ledged utility, has been matter of much controversy. I re member a question which has been often broached amongst political economists, how far Government was justified in any interference with respect to the industry of the people, and that a striking illustration has been drawn from the history of the Russian empire and the Czar Peter the Great. Although the country abounded with timber, the people had not learnt the use of the saw, and though the staple commodities were deal, yet the houses were meat rudely fashioned, and a great waste ensued, because the workmen used no instrument for the conversion of the timber but the hatchet. As it appears self-evident that it is the duty of parents to educate their children, and it is inferred that some penalty should be awarded for its breach, so Peter the Great, who if he never had done a worse action, would have well earned the appel lation which has been given to him.—( Hear.) Seeing so clearly that the use of the custom of his people was unfit and prejudicial, though he did not think it proper to compel the use of saws, yet, to accelerate their introduc tion, imposed a tax upon deals cut otherwise ; and, according to my recollection, I believe that in the first year of its impo sition the tax produced a great return, but in the next year scarce a ruble was obtained. Just so in the present case, we may impose such disadvantages on those who are not pos sessed of education as to have the effect of removing obstruc tions, and doing away with any unwillingness on the part of the people to receive its blessings. If people were univer sally aware of their own interests—if they all felt the benefits of education as well as their duty in imparting it to their off spring—if they felt that it was a duty not only owing to the one but incumbent on the other—l should be even more will ing to listen to some proposition, not by any direct penalty, not by any direct punishment of throwing some such disad vantage on the people, for the neglect of this duty, as might accelerate its diffusion. After sonic other remarks, his Lord ship proceeded :—So far he was for non-interference : he would not fix the kind of education, nor determine the parties who should receive it, hut he would bring it home to the door of every man, by multiplying the number of schools; and not only would he, by making it cheap, bring it within the reach of all, but he would assist in improving the style of education, by providing schools for the training of schoolmasters, by giving them greater facilities for acquiring knowledge, and greater power to the people to avail themselves of these teachers' better qualifications. These were his ideas ; he would interfere as little as possible ; he would render as sistance ; he would not force, but help. Considering the circumstances in which this country was placed, and the prin ciples applicable to its present situation and tome, he thought that any measure which should be propounded should not be based on any general principles, but should have particular reference to them, and to the actual state of education in England. There were a great number of schools of great importance in this country. There were not less than fifty thousand of various kinds, of which thirty-nine or forty thou sand were entirely unendowed—they rested for support exclu sively on the voluntary contributions and great personal exer tions of the subscribers; the remainder were endowed. He thought that persons were by no means supported in the as sertion that the children educated in these schools ought to be considered as charity children, for a great portion of them were not so in the strict sense of the word. He would take tt'e 39,000 day schools only, for though Sunday schools pro duced groat benefit, and were of considerable utility, yet they were necessarily very imperfect means of instruction, because, as they were confined to one day in the week, and of course only to a small portion of that day, the children who attended them could not be perfectly instructed. Of these day schools, then, how many chirds, n were i n t h e situation of being called with accuracy charity childeren ? One half? No such thing. Many years ago, one half of the schools were free schools. In 1820 there were 600,000 scholars in endowed and unendowed schools, of whicti one half were in endowed schools, and this included elle) the free schools; and, if they looked at the number of scholars who paid included in the total number, lie thought that the number of those who did not pay even then might be reduced to 117,000 ; and at the present moment that not morn than one third of the total number of scholars were gra tuitously taught. This was a material circumstance, and it ices overlooked by the persons who agreed with him (Lord Brougham) on other points, but who underrated the value of the present amount of education, attributing it all to charity, and avowing lightly that a system supported by mere charity Wes pregnant with evil ; that it tended to lower the character of the children ; that it made too great d distinction between the different shades of society ; that it was not based on the reciprocity of good offices and kindly feelings; that the kind offices partook too much of a patronising spirit, and a presimp tion of authority which could hardly fail from being attended with the submission, not to say degradation, of the recipients ; that it did away with the feeling which ought to prevail in the individuals who received towards those who bestowed ; and that it give the notion that the children were not independent, that they were the victims of poverty, and that they were, in short, the objects of charity. No one could deplore than him se.f the deficiencies of the present system, or wish that it were superseded by one of greater value ; but the notion that those were charity children who were educated in schools supported by private subscription, and by the personal exertions of pub lic spirited individuals, and that these children were in a degraded situation, could only arise from a superficial knowledge of the facts.—(Hear, hear.) Another circum stance which should be considered in fixing on a system of education was, that it must be suited to the local circumstances of the place in which it was to be established ; cne system might be perfectly adapted for one place which was wholly inadequate for another. Thus, it would be absurd to follow the example of the Scot'iih Parliament previous to the revolution of 1658 in the establishment of parish schools, and to allot one school for each parish. Perhaps there might be half-a-dozen in existence already, and to add one to this numLsr without knowing the particular circumstances of the locality would not only be a useless but also a prepos terous proceeding. The parish schools were perfectly ade quate for the state of Scotland at that time, when there were scarcely any schools, when the influence of trade and manu factures was little felt, and when there was hardly any diffe rence in the circumstances, and when all were sunk into a low state of ignorance ; but they would be quite improper in thi: country. If any system were introduced which suited a c-mmercial district, it might be unfitted for a manufacturing tovt n ; if it were adequate for both a commercial and manufac turing part of the country, it might be wholly inapplicable to a rural parish ; and even if it were proper for a rural parish of great extent, and with a particular class of people, it might not be ap propriate for another rural parish of less extent, and with a different race. Every system of education, therefore, if it were meant to succeed, must be so framed as to be capa ble of expansion and contraction, and easily susceptible of such variations and modifications as might suit the different, parts of the country, and meet the views, the wants, and the altering state of the various towns and even villages which were found to exist in England. Another circumstance im posing restraint on the introduction of a general system was, that not only were these funds raised by the exertions of indi viduals, but there were also many funds arising from the en dowments. In some parts these endowments were snore than sufficient to provide for the required instruction; in others they just met the exigencies of the place, and in others they were entirely wanting. How, therefore, could they frame any general measure, which, operating alike in all parts and in all places, could have a beneficial tendency ? What would be perfectly sufficient for one place would be utterly inefficient l i for another. The effect of the state of this country as regarded the religious feelings of the people presented another ob stacle to the well-working of any uniform measure. They had in all places the Established Church, but in some parts a great proportion of the people did not believe in the tenets and conform to the usages of that Church ; in some places there were hardly any Dissenters, in others they were su perabundant, in some districts they amounted to a tajority, and in others they were almost on an equality with the members of the Establishment. Nay, the sects themselves varied in different parts, one sect preponderating in one dis trict, and another elsewhere. Yet, if they found one system which might be adapted to the religious peculiarities of one sect or district, yet if th e y applied - the alteration to others it would be wholly inappropriate. Such was the present state of education here; so much had been done by private indivi duals, so many schools were at present in existence, the present funds with the assistance of endowments on the one hand, and the payment by the scholars added to private subscriptions on the other, were so considerable, and the funds required for the universal establishment of some system adequate to the wants of the whole commnnity were so large, that it became abso lutely necessary to use the greatest care and precaution so that the efforts of indiViduals might not in any manner be relaxed, and so as not to intercept the funds at present appropriated to this most desirable object ; they ought to assist the further efforts of persons disposed to advance the good work, rather than supplant them, always bearing in mind that the measures adopted by the Legislature should not pre vent the adoption in each locality of the system best adapted to the peculiar wishes, feelings, and exigencies of the inhabitants--that they ought not to interfere with the exer tions of individuals who had already assisted in their own districts, and that they ought to excite, to encourage, and to stimulate these individuals for the purpose of increasing their exertions. Not merely were the present means of instruction deficient in amount, not only were the schools already established by far too few for the number of the younger portion of the population, not only were there too few children attending these schools, for at the present pe riod there were not more than one million and a quarter of individuals receiving instruction, or, he believed, in Eng landpar t of a nd t a c l a e s s e , a w b as out tb l a , t 2 7: 12 ,0 1 0 6 0 ; b b a u d t b t e h e e n a m l r o e s a t d y l a m a d e v n e t r a t b e l d e to that evenin g, that the majo r ity o f t h e sc h oo l s, at least THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, DECEMBER 2, 1537 lations of the schools either proposed to be established, or proposed to be extended, or proposed to be improved, the Board approved of them—then the Board, and not till then, slight give its sanction for further proceedings. The Board might then say to the local authorities—" We see you re quire so much money to be advanced out of the Parliamen tary grant. Furnish a certain proportion, according to the rules which we have laid down, and you shall have the sum required." It was unpleasant to interrupt oneself in a state ment ; but the Right Reverend Prelate had made an ob servation which justified him (Lord Brougham) to step aside for a moment from the point he was pursuing. The system hitherto adopted in extending assistance from the Parlia mentary grants, was exceedingly imperfect. The rule laid down by the Treasury was, that as often as any applica tion was made from any quarter for assistance from the Par liamentary grant it should only be given after a certain pro portion —one half, he believed—of the sum required being raised by the parties making the application. It was said that this was holding the balance quite even between the British and Foreign Society and the National Society. He 'himself first thought it was so ; and during the first year it was perfectly just, for the same application was made " from us" and from the National School. When he said " us," it was because he happened to be a member of the British and Foreign School Society, having, indeed, presided at its first meeting thirty years ago. In the beginning, then, it seemed that both Societies were on an equal footing with regard to the advances made to them from the Parliamentary grants. But this was confined to the first year. The British and Foreign Society actually exhausted their funds during that year ; it was therefore unable to make a proportionate advance in subsequent years; so that next year upwards of two-thirds or three fifths, or even four-fifths, of the Par. liameetary grant went to the National Society, and ne cessarily so, because that Society, being richer, was able to make the required proportionate advance. It did not, how ever, at all follow that because applications were not made from any given place, therefore there did not exist an equal want of assistance. He - could name places where the as sistance from the Parliamentary grant was most pressingly wanted, and yet where there were no means of raising twenty shillings towards a fund. It was therefore imperative upon the Treasury to alter their present system. They must have a system capable of contraction, expansion, variation, and adaptation. To require a particular place to furnish two thirds or three-fourths of the proportion of the sum wanted might in some cases be too little ; and in others to require even a much less proportion of the money might be too much ; and to require what was actually right might probably occur only once in five hundred cases. The consequence was that the money granted by Parliament was exhausted, and that yet education was wanted in many places. For aught he knew the mere education and training of teachers might be alone sufficient to exhaust the Parliamentary grants ; or it might be that the Parliamentary grants should never be allowed except in those very rare instances where no fund could be got b 3 rate lo cally, nor by private assistance locally. In all other cases he apprehended a school-rate might safely, and ought justly, and would beneficially be directed under the au thority of the Board, with the concurrence of the local autho rity. The people of such places could not complain, because they had consented to it by their Representatives ; they could not complain of their burden, because they had asked it by their Representatives. They, and they alone, were to origi nate the plan. Unless they desired it they were not to be rated ; unless they called for the rate, or for the power of rating themselves, the Bill gave no authority to impose any rate whatever upon them. So much for the liberty which the Bill gave to what might be called the voluntary principle in the proper sense of the word upon the spot. But then, on the other hand, that they should not at their own will and pleasure have the power of rating themselves without the authority of the central body he took to be perfectly clear also ; because it did so happen that even Representatives chosen by the rate payers at large were sometimes disposed to incur expenses which their constituents, if left to themselves, would not have allowed. Therefore it became not at all superfluous to inter pose a protection against the possibility of such a step. Ac cordingly the joint consent of the local authority of the district and the central department was required before any rate could be made. He would now call upon their Lordships to observe how the Bill would work with respect to these regula tions. Suppose alocal body were to propound to the Board, with an estimate and statement of the want of education in their district, a set of rules extremely injudicious—a set of rules to which the Legislature and the country ought not to afford its sanction ; suppose there should be any intolerance in the case ; suppose, for instance, the majority of the Town Council should be disposed to oppress the minority ; suppose that the Dissenters should have obtained a great preponderance in that body, and should propose, for instance, that no clergy man of the Established Churth—(he was sure that sech a case was not the least likely to happen, but he put it merely as an illustration)—suppose that the Dissenters, having autho rity in that body, should propose that na minister of the Esta blished Church should ever be a teacher iu their school, it would then be for the Board to say—constituted, as it would be first, by the three irremovable Commissioners, and then by the two responsible Ministers of the Crown—whether the school applied for should be established under their authority, and under the powers and provisions of this Bill, from being a master of which one of the school-rules positively and im peratively excluded any minister of the Established Church. He would suppose another case, which he hoped, nay, which he was quite sure, could not happen; but suppose there should be any Town Council where, instead of the Dissenters having obtained a majority, the Churchmen had a majority, and that they should be minded in their rules to propose that one of them should be that no Dissenter or any other than a member of the Church of England. should ever be master of their schools. The Board would then have the power to say to the Town-council, " It is utterly imposi sible one can consent to this. It would be oppressive to the Dissenters ; intolerable to all who were not members of the Church—not creditable to the Church itself—nay, it would be injurious to the Church ; therefore, as friends of the esta blishment and fa iends of toleration, it is our bounden duty to refuse our sanction to schools, one of whose rules is of that exclusive and intolerant description." Why, then, it might be asked, what would be the consequence? The majority of the representatives of the rate-payers might say, " We have required to have schools established, and because one of our rules is that no Dissenter shall be a teacher in them, we are refused assistance. Is it not hard that if we choose, as a Ma jority, not to admit a Dissenter to be a teacher, we should be deprived of any assistance from the Parliamentary grant ?" To which he ( Lord Brougham) would make answer thus. " It is all very well for you who happen to be a majority that there should exist such a rule, but there happens to be a mi nority as well as a majority, and I feel it my duty to interpose the shield of the Board of Education to protect that minority, So as to prevent the majority acting intolerantly towards them, and from excluding them and their children from those very schools, to the support of which you, the majority, require the Board to give you the authority to levy a rate from that minority." Well, then, what happens? The Board refuses to give the council authority to levy a rate. They must be left without a rate, and the parish must be left as it now is, and no school can be established upon this principle. Those who wish to subscribe to a school of their own, where the rule shall be that no Churchman, or no Dissenter, as it may happen, shall be the master of the school, may subscribe according to the voluntary principle out of their own money ; but they can have no portion of a grant from Parliament ; they shall have no power to levy a rate in an unjust, unequal, and in tolerant shape. In all these cases matters would be left as they now are. I believe (said the Noble and Learned Lord) that those cases would be very rare, and that they are much more likely to happen in argument than in practice. Your Lordships will, therefore, perceive that compulsion being ex cluded, that intolerance being excluded, that the joint opera tion of the board and the local authorities—and only the control of the board where necessary, and where safe as well as advantageous being alone allowed—it may be truly said, that the voluntary principle, as far as it can be applied, will, according to the disposition and desires of each place, be exercised in applying and putting in force the power and authority of this Bill fur the improvement of the school and the adoption of conciliatory measures. But I shall be asked, as has been frequently asked out of doors, and once or twice asked by one for whom I have the greatest possible regard— I mean a Noble Friend in the other House of Parliament—l shall be asked why, when stating that additional means will be rendered necessary to carry this measure into effect in places where there are no Municipal Corporations, I do not take the machinery that is at present existing, instead of intro ducing new machinery ? You have, it is said, the machinery of the new Poor-law, you have the Boards of Guardians that have already been formed, and Unions are likely to take place in all those parts of the country where they do not at present ex i s t. The Poor-law Bill, lam told, will sooner or later ex tend over the whole country, and why not, therefore, take ad , vantage of the arrangements of that important measure for the purpose of enabling the establishment of schools under the provisions of the Bill I now propose in places beyond the limits of the Municipal Corporations ? I think, my Lords, I can answer that question very satisfactorily, and show how ut terly it is impossible, with a view to the well-working of the measure—( Hear, hear)—as well as the right-working of the Poor-law Bill itself, to make this junction between them.—. (Hear, hear.) In the first place, the Poor-law Commis sioners are sufficiently worked already. Indeed, I know of places where it is complained of that they do not attend. But I I pass that over, for that is really the least of my objec tions. No person was ever a more strenuous friend to that great measure that I was, and ens still.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") I have often times had reason to repeat my opinions to your Lordships of the absolute necessity of that bill ; I have done so before the event, and since the event of it its entire success in most places, and in all places of its succeeding better and failing less than I could ever 'ex pees.—(Hear, hear.) Nevertheless I cannot shut my eyes to the fact, that in some places that important measure— a measure calculated to work so much good, and in the end, I venture to say, absolutely certain to conciliate all men's fa vour and affection—a measure which has already done so much good, not only to those who pay rates, for that is the least part of its merit in my eyes, nay, it was no part of its recommendation with me in supporting it—but in bettering the condition of the poor themselves, increasing their com forts, and above all things in giving them a higher tone of moral feeling, a greater self-respect an d se lf s d epen d ence. — g ( Hear, hear.) My Lords, notwithstanding my favour of that measure, and my absolutely certain conviction that in the end all men, even those who most oppose and most de nounce be found reconciled to it, and approving of it, nay, further, will be found grateful for it ; yet I cannot disguise from myself, nor conceal from your Lordships, that in some considerable portions of the country, it has not met with that favour, which it merits, but has been met in some quarters, I won't say by whom, but in some quarters of th , country, byla spirit of opposition and of attack which has not been confined to the measure itself, but has been extended even to its authors, and is still what may properly and shortly be termed an unpopular measure.—( Hear, hear.) But because the new Poor-law 13i11 was in some respects and in some places an unpopular measure, was he, therefore, to extend any part of the unpopularity of that measure to the Bill which he was they, submitting to their Lordships' consideration ? Was he to load with any unnecessary unpopularity derived from a connection with the Poor Law Bill, and which was pecu liar to the Poor Law Bill, and which did not naturally be long to this Education Bill—was he to load with any un-. necessary unpopularity derived from such sources a measure which to succeed must depend much upon the good feeling of the people ? A general system of education, whether under the Bill he then proposed or under any other Bill, could not possibly be extended and improved, much less made universal over the country, unless the affection and respect of, the peo ple were by all possible means conciliated. That being the case, it would be one of the least prudent and least safe courses that could be taken to load this new measure, and through the medium of this measure to load education gene rally, with any one atom, however small, of the unpopularity which at present, and only at present, attended the other measure. In like manner, no doubt, certain controversies would arise with respect to the administration of the new systetn of education. Great heats and contentions would doubtless at times arise as to the mode in which the provi sions of the Bill should, in certain cases, be carried into effect. The Board might differ from the local authorities— the local authorities might split amongst themselves—dis putes no doubt would oftentimes run high, and frequently, perhaps, upon the very questions upon which there was the least real ground for difference, and upon which it were most desirable that there should be a perfect union of feeling and conduct. Against such difficulties the Bill could not provide, because they were difficulties that arose out of the infirmity of human nature. But with such difficrilties to contend against, was he further to load his Education Bill with any of those matters of contention and of controvery to the Poor-law Bill ?--or, on the other hand, was he to load the Poor-law Bill with any of the difficul ties which were peculiar to the Education Bill, which might arise out of the Education Bill, but which could not by possibility arise out of the Administration of the Poor law Bill, unless some injudicious union of the two were effected? It was his wish, and in the framing of the Bill it had been his endeavour, to keep the two measures totally and completely separate. He would not in any way unite them. Foreseeing a sufficient amount of difficulty in the administration of the one, he was most anxious not to intro duce into it any of the bitter strife of the other. He now came to that part of the measure which related to the ex temion of the new system to those places in which there were no municipal bodies. For this purpose, keeping still to the voluntary principle, which ran through the whole of the Bill, he proposed, that if any parish or township, not having municipal institutions, chose to do so, it might obtain for itself such a body as should give it the power of availing, itself of the provisions of the Bill, and of putting those provi sions in force in the way he had already described by the mutual assent of the local authority and the central Board. For that purpose it was provided thai if any given number (five or six for instance) of persons in the parish or township made a requisition to the parish officer, the parish officer should call a meeting of all persons who liked to attend such a meeting. Who those persons were he would presently state to their Lordships. The bulk of them, no doubt, would be the rate-payers and owners of property in the parish or township. When these persons, together with those whom he should by and by mention, had been summoned and assem bled at the meeting convened by the parish officer, this ques tion was to be propounded to them--" Did they choose to have a school committee appointed ?" if the majority of them said No, we do not want it—we have education enough," he( Lord Brougham) did rot force it upon them ; he would leave them as they were, waiting till the general progress of improvement had extended to them, and made them desirous of availing themselves of the utmost advantages that an improved system eef education could afford them. If the majority of the meeting did not agree to have a Committee, still it might be said amongst them, " We are the friends of education, but still we think there is enough here—we do not like anything like the shape of Government interfering, even through the me dium of such a Board as this—we do not like rates—let us remain as we are." Very well, they would remain as they were ; the Bill would not apply to them ; they might continue in the course which they deemed best, or which was the most agrecable'to them. But if, on the other hind, the majority said, " We want schools, or the schools which now exist want steadier friends to support them—it is not right that we should allow our education to rest upon such precarious grounds—we want a better system of instruction and more money for that purpose," then if they chose they would appoint a school Committee, which school Committee would be composed of rate payers, and the members of the Committee so appointed would have the power of levying the rate for school purposes upon the parish. Having thus pro vided for the manner in which the school Committee was to be appointed, the Bill afterwards detailed the manner in which the Committee was to act, and defined with much exactitude the . limit to be imposed upon the authority of the Board on the one hand, and of the Committee on the other. From the statement he had just made, their Lordships would perceive that what the council were with respect to education in cor porate towns, the school committee would be in places which had no corporations; and further, - that by the institution of the school Committees, the system, according to the principle lie had already described, would, be made quite universal throughout the whole of the country.' Then the ques tion arose how was the constituency to he formed which was to chose the school Committee. He besought such of their Lordships as honoured him with their attention upon that important ques'ion not to be staggered with the proposition for the qualification of voters which he was about to explain ; because he began by stating that it was en tirely new, and therefore lie knew was not likely to find favour in the eyes of some of those whom he addressed. It might also be objected to by those who were against increasing the weight of the people to their elective capacity. Furthermore, be admitted that after it had been once adopted—and he was sure candour would go no further than he was then going, for he was raising against himself that which he felt to be the most powerful argument that could be employed against his proposition, and running the risk of alarming such of their Lordships as were generally favourable to the Bill, on account of the possible perversion to other uses of the principle he pro posed to introduce—a principle carrying with it all the startling effects of perfect novelty, with a strong liability to be ex tended, nay, with a great temptation to be extended, to other uses which many of their Lordships would think a perversion and an abuse of it—he admitted that this part of the Bill was • liable to all these objections ; but still, with the feelings that lie entertained upon the subject, it was utterly impossible that he could do otherwise than incorporate it in any mea sure upon the subject of education which it might be his lot or his fortune to introduce to the Legislature. He must add, having with the utmost candqur pointed Out the very for midable nature of the objections which he was quite sure would be used against him, and having also adverted, although he hoped only for the purpose of warning their Lordships against their own feelings and their own prejudices (if he might take leave to use such a term upon such a subject)—having with that view stated the objections to his principle in their broad dimensions, and painted his project, he really thought, in its very worst colours—having so done, night he be permitted to add, in fairness to himself and to his measure, that the princi ple to which he had thus adverted was not so combined with the Bill as to be inseparable from it if there were found to be an invincible repugnance to it, so that those who approved generally of the rest df the measure, but objected to that one point of it, would not be under the necessity of voting against the whole Bill. That part of the Bill, if the objection to it were invincible, might be lopped off and cast away without injury to the remainder. If their Lordships were to tear out that provision of the Bill with all the disgust, abhorrence, and aversion that men could properly entertain towards any pro position, they might do so if they pleased—it did not necessa rily affect the rest of the measure. He hoped it had vigour to survive the operation. His first hope was, that the operation would not be performed ; it did not follow that death should ensue. Did their lordships suppose that it was universal suffrage that he proposed to introduce ? He thought that something might be said for universal suffrage in an education Bill. The qualification of those who were alone to levy the tax, required that they should pay the tax themselves which they joined in levying. He did not propose universal 'suffrage as re garded the election of the school Committee. Not at all. The school Committee was to be composed of persons wile paid as their neighbours paid, and who had no right to put their hands into their neighbours' pockets without at the same in proportiOn putting their hands into their own. So that universel suffrage, if applicable to the education franchise, that was to say to the franchise for the choice of a school Committee, whose duties and labours were to be confined solely and exclusively to the management of the school con cerns, was not liable to the same objection in this instance as it would be if applied to the elections of Members of Parlia ment, because the party chosen had the qualification of being a rate-payer himself. But, in truth, it was not universal suffrage that he then proposed ; he proposed a qualifica tion, for the fr anc hi se — a qua lifi ca ti on no t on ly, h e wa s mum' afraid, infinitely restricted in comparison with Vail .. versal suff r age— no t on ly a qualification, he was sorry t add, that would exclude a vast portion of the industrious,o honest, worthy fellow-citizens in every part of the country —a qualification that would not only keep out from all concern and all voice in the affairs of any one parish or town : . ship a vast many thousands of their fellow-citizens, who, if there were not certain qualifications required for perfo rmin g the duties of the office, which unhappily they had not yet at tained, would in every respect be most fitted to take part in the proceedings of these Committees; but a qualification, a frani chise, so restricted that when he stated the nature of it the r Lordships would at once perceive that it was peculiarly appro priate where the question was the choosing a Committee f r superintending the affairs of a school. He proposed an ed u cation qualification. The Legislature had given a right to choose Members of Parliament to persons who possessed a 101. franchise or a 403. freehold. It had also given a right to choose town councillors to persons who were rated in any way. Of course his (Lord Brongham's) object was, that all those persons who were rated at any amount whatever sho u ld in the first place enjoy t he franchise of voting for the school Committee; but then he went further. H e h e ld t h at t h ere could be no harm , but every kind of benefit possible, in ex tending it in the direction he was about to mention. They wanted well-informed persons ; they wanted persons of sober and industrious habits—men wh om t h ey cou ld sa f e l y trus t—men who were not likely to be led away by their ignorance, or to be debauched by bribery and corruption, to which persons of dissipated habit s , an d who w e re not res pectable in their life and conversation, were liable. , He proposed, then, to take those men who had given a proof that 67 wer , .. of 60bn I,lbitc th a t th e y aof industrious lives ; that they were friends to education ; that they had made efforts to educate themselves; and men who to a certain extent had profitted by their suc- te nt bee° nie cessful efforts, and had already to a certain ex be Y e" ren educated men. In the first place , he might, P ing , b e pro aesdkueedat e w d h ? at a t n e d st in h t e b e had t th p a l t aee t , h eistemmigebnt b w e ere sul airedffieihot:‘,, when be had proved the extent of the ir education unitesof t t lbe e B ml i v ll i with e t r l e m te b pa e rt particular a i b force r locality in tmich l_n re p ly t o pt tl ho i e e s s eP e dr q °t Ue s e ieb questions he would state, that in order to co ' residen ce ' voters witie the locality he required twelve rnonth ' t use it m lt ai w n a d s er p e ro f v t i i d re ed g i u n al t ifi h e e at ß ie i n ll s th b a e t uld no be pe a rs t on lib b e a r e t • y inz o t f h o e r he unless he had been resident in the parish or township e mtboenthrast.e-pTayheersse: wouldthen %%11' ns f enrolling f w u i l l l e, pe i r n i d o e d pe o n f d t en w t el o ve f the franchise. The Board would have the power of a. , _ .so , by an Act of its own all mechanics' institutions , _. ciations for education, all . literary societies for all and t a i e l l a education ebd a ce dib societies g te thos e sons who had for a certain time been members. most useful, most advantageous, most meritorious 1) me he themselves t ° t— eereatdhrue foeerrtaalilnclraussieess,; usnodetrbeactortafaninp_reer: persons who for a certain time had devoted rornsci the education of others and improved their own —it affairs of those societies and associations, and thus .t pra m p e1 ; 0 , t v a id b e i d tbn by e t i h n e s ß ue i b il c t e h u a r t s V , l o t n i d ies b e ei p ng ers b o i n cl s i , n l ea rav Ntercr to bers of such a body, should have a right to vote, eabebniooi parish in which he resided, for the members of t ed Rho ° Committee. He went a step further. He propos . bad tend this privilege to all persons of whatever rack ssb of d been educated at either of the Universities, at the Inns r ci ig b P e c a smee momsth Court, at the Inns of Chancery, at the public schools, er„llantis schools whatever, and of all classes of the com munity,; a ll ever, were it high, middle, or low—he proposed t° these persons, the time they had spent at schnol being taken as a guarantee that they were not ignorant , it' it _ be uneducated persons, should, after a year's resi dence ' admitted to the' right of voting on the school affairs °' a id town, parish, or district in which a school Committee sb_nj,.o be appointed. He had thus detailed boldly and at. °. be all the points of the Bill upon which lie anticipated. th e strongest opposition. The principle of election which i s had last explained was, he knew, the most formidable. " t he night have omitted it altogether; he might have left owns franchise in couutry districts arid in unincorporated t 00a, upon the same foot , ng as that upon which it already s ts , a But as he entertained now, and had always en tertaine_u ees very strong and decided opinion in favour of this kind ot.nedli, couragement to education, in favour of this species o f ' tie , rect, he could not call it compulsory, 'furthering of edu ea —as he had always had a very strong opinion of the mer' t - o the transcendent merits, of those industrious classes, ue their immortal honour, struggling with every disadvan ta g e ss struggling against narrow circumstances and cramped n iec e s —struggling against the difficulties and the disadvan ta g e s that resulted from an imperfect education—struggling agait the obstacles and impediments presented by those who ir lish discourage them in their efforts to improve, from a f and preposterous jealousy of their treading upon their .osiag heels, and who, for that cause, would prevent then . ' r' .. . e . in society by the best and most meritorious lad der , r . mental superiority—who, against all these disaslls Ip st tages and disencouragements, still occupied the h i g n b e ee place, in the estimation of those who looked at ma° t , ic e neath the surface—with the heartfelt respect ellw'Sou he had always cherished for those persons—with the affe o , and love which he entertained for those classes from a 11. and intimate knowledge of them, and from a deep and da il Y i s, creasing sense of their transcendent merit, both of understau,nue ing and honesty, ancl s be must be permitted to add of ge nu h is independence, he believed he should not have discharged 0 , duty, nor have acted fairly towards his own feelings or prid, ciples, nor fairly towards the persons he had mentionedia nor fairly towards this measure of education, if b e ; „s. not in the outset declare and explain the nature of the P r — be ple he had introduced into it, and which he hoped would permitted to receive the sanction of the Legislature. He P I ; ferred making the statement boldly and at once, because.th, knew he could not press the Bill through another stage w s l . o , out the necessity of apologizing to their Lordships for h v 1 0,71 in the first instance avoided any allusion to so new " to e so important a principle. He took leave to add 1 , _ t he had never concealed from their Lordships, for the 0 1 0 two or three years, the strong impression which prevailed is a his mind of the necessity, as he stated the other night ge material extension of the elective franchise, p r oper called. He spoke then not of the school franchise, but of Parliamentary franchise. The Parliamentary franchises _le was true, had nothing to do with the measure he was t. 117, bringing forward, and ought properly, no doubt, to be att e ,. gether excluded from their consideration upon that occasr o , It he adverted to it at all, it was for the purpose of reminding their Lordships of what he had stated a few nights ago , which had elsewhere been most unaccountably misundereW ° It was stated that the idea of a further extension of the suffrl was a new opinion that he had recently taken up—an opint_s, that he bad never advanced before. Why, he stated the same thing in the last Session of Parliament. He stated the a few months ago, standing in his place in that House , e se Isis opinion was, that to amend a few of the details of be Reform Bill would not be sufficient, but that it would be a c solutely necessary to extend the right of voting. He had g°, no new light upon the subject, although he believed othe,t; had. He held now the same opinions that he held last Session, and which he had then declared. At close of the Session he expressly and explicitly declare what his opinions upon that point were ; and only a ti r six weeks ago he had repeated them again, in a le tt " addressed by him to the people of Manchester. To say't therefore, that he had received anything like a new lig le upon the. subject, was a mere forgetfulness of the vvh facts of the case, and he should not be doing justice to e tuse e t persons, nor common justice to himself, if he did not take dg opportunity of alluding to the erroneous statement. But t h is had no connection with the Education Bill, the franchise e °l l n , ferred by which was, as he had already explained, a very extension of the•franchise, as it was given either by the Ref ° "; Bill or the Municipal Corporation Bill. But that part of tb t. Bill which related to the franchise was separable from the r e, It mixed itself up with none of the other details of the me"; sure. It appeared to him ( Lord Brougham) to be a gr ea o improvement ; and he hoped and trusted that the Bill Wo e , not pass without it ; but if any man objected to it, unless s objected to the rest of the Bill upon other grounds, he we e , have no right to endeavour to defeat the whole Inea s , er be on account of any disinclination or aversion which he le l g feel for this part of the proposition : it could with ea 'a be separated from the remainder. He had not i n troduc e „ the vote by Ballot ; he did not consider that the vote wolit Ballot would be applicable to this subject. His opinions °,P, the extension of the Parliamentary franchise had mine gone no change. He had stated formerly to their Lordship'' and he then again repeated it, that he thought the Par' l oo mentary franchise ought to be greatly extended. His oP ie „ o e upon the Ballot had undergone some change, and he was ashamed nor afraid to avow it. He still thought that ' at Ballot would afford no protection te the tenant ; he s s o t o thought that it would be inefficacious to the protection of tenant in towns; but, at the same time, he could not she Bill eyes to the fearful position in which the working of Elio 85 had placed another class of voters, who deserved protection o, well as the tenants—he meant the inhabitants of the to w ee the honest tradesman who dared to vote as his conse ie % ot e.- dictated. Therefore it was that he had come to the opl es that the Ballot must be tried unless some other mealy could be devised and passed feethe protection of that . 00 able class of the community. H av i ng come t o that Ot i ti s with the utmost relu c t ance —h av i ng h a d a ll a l ong , for rea,'" e g which lie need not then repeat nor explain, having o ftent' eg adverted to th e m i n t h e ot h er H ouse o f Parliament--b al s t o f throughout the wh o l e o f hi s career enterta i ne d a degr e c at l repugnance and aversion for the Ballot, which he a g never found words sufficiently strong to express--O t w bat but an absolute, uncontrollable necessity —nothing t ee the total want of auy other remedy—nothing he t b a d despair of finding (after so many fruitless attempts t ee been made) even the shadow of a protection t° or honest and conscientious voter in any other direction , from any othe r quar t er — not hi ng s h ort o f t hi s could . r persuaded him t o overcome th e avers i on an d rePug°;;e which he entertained to the B a ll o t. But the et , o f rience of the last two or three years, and more particular'," to the last election, compelled him, with great reluctanee;th conic over to the opinion in favour of the Ballot. Be° t ee he did not think that any necessity existed for introducing _OO Ballot in school elections. Here he thought the corntvo, mode of voting would be preferable. At all events, lie petted it would succeed. Whether their Lordships an Ada. other House of Parliament should be of opinion that the f a ll cation suffrage should be proposed, should be taken to lt,s,be extent, or with restrictions and modifications, or sh tittutios omitted altogether, leavi ng th e ra t e -payers only to el ee beee school Committee, in either case he was qu ite sure that Lel would be no necessity t o p rescr ib e an y other than the ordwoo mode of election in the choice of these local bodies.f the had now stated the outline of all the provision 0 45 measure. He was perfectly ready to admit that I‘ one of cousiderable extent, in many respects new'bigh in all and every respect dealing with interests of the io t a' eat importance. He thought that the more their 3 ' lo ol ships considered its details, and the principle uP" -ra° it proceeded, the more it would be found to deserve theen:lo, which he last year gave it—namely, a measure for t e e e l; c ee pose of doing all that is wanted for the education of the egis without doing more; of interfering on the part of the P o c a rs lature and the Government as far ss is necessary, an d n local rotes ther; a measur e f or reconc ili ng a ll w i s hes and all s ups rests, and interfering with none—supplanting nobett°_),'..butot pressing no efforts, arid giving rise to no vexatious he vi 7 nen t of lugs or jealousies, but simply b consulting the illtP!" ° hout at all the people and the bettering of their condition, wi t . to e,l interfering with their domestic affairs, or endeavouringeotice force those who, to be really improved, ought to b e sree t and drawn. It was a Bill which reconciled many 1 1 1 . , e 7 in tie consistencies, and established forms which amour , ' _ s f a r , whole to one great universal system of education,,cad'iyersitl; anything systematic could be applied to a country, t .. n ..ieus as . ' t of whose local circumstances were so great and vdS sis subje c t England. If in bringing forward a measure upOn_u' of so lo he had overlooked or neglected the great nureb?';_ fun ds !il l ; already established, the great amount of charitaare plicable to the purposes of education, the unequal resp ect of those funds, and the state of the countryir tu these e ireu ers i its religious denominations; if, neglecting a some gouged. stances, he had at once framed a plait p far more plausible to their Lordships, much_ e o f a cystoid to contemplate, much more deserving the na L. l. s.,,tro otrf icties t systematic, symmetrieal principle, it wouuld° ro ha o s r e e ?citrucif: much more entitled to the useless praise,ijeldolfses.... `theterie_ proportion, but when it came to be worked , `" ikena nt applicable perfectly to no place, perhaps t'' , •!ing:.!. and i:reconciic2 l )lo tu the wt:,, o tageo t 2 the ' places, and in almost all places less al eite ls r pt ion' a measure founded upon the same In_7 4 J„s' at' which he was then introducing to their Loru"