The Sun. — London, England, 1837-11-28 00:00:00

res err _ , ~o )ore n—the memorial of the magistrates and the police 11 ,4 n 5• He had received them ° from Ireland yesterday attentPg ; and he had gone through the reports with great a i ". In the iirst place he must observe that outrages ve•Titresnditti in the r.eghbourhood in question were no no the • He repeated that he had read the police reports of to himrecent outrages with great attention, and it was evident an,z Ilethat they principally related to the possession of laud, t i eula ' r re caused by the turning out or the admission of par of tenants. Nor did it appear that any great number ontr Persons were combined in the perpetration of these a ges• Thus confined in their character, and limited aata he a re ference to the number of persons engaged in them , ( : ut helie ve d the Irish Government would. b e a bl e to pu t th ese „ r aT-Tes down by the ordinary course of law. The present htlt not a new (location lyte-e?ri the Noble Earl and himself. (r .44 been agi tate d te years ago. Since that period be ford Mulgrave) had considerably added to the constabulary r ee and to the police ; the result of was. as appeared th Z the judges' charges, and other sources of information, district was in a much more tranquil state than for h!toedthe the It must be a much stronger case than that made out t oalter Noble Earl which would induce him (Lord Mulgrave) his present opinion of the sufficiency of the existing la h w a t i c l l meet the existing evil. At the same time he hoped jeet s e was quite open to conviction on that as on other sub law • Whenever he should become satisfied that the existing t hat never a d m i n i stere d, as the Noble Earl admitted stilt he( Lord M u l grave ) h a d a dministered it, was insufficient, he n uld not hesitat e t o apply for additional powers. But be re olaed, that he saw nothing in the present state of the barony Clanwilliam that called for any s uch measuse. There was a nother circ umstance i n t h e memorial of the magistrates and atte i ne polic e reports to w hi c h h e w i s hed to call their Lordships' ta t i nti °n• One of the principal grounds of the represen by,, in the memorial was the plunder and the possession peasantry of unregistered arms. Now, it appeared th , the p o li ce reports that there were only two of ro b outrages in question that were connected with the ✓ b erY of arms The magistrates also drew strong info renees from the statement thattherewas a considerable nob assembled. Now, it did not appear from the police re c.:el• ls that more than twenty or thirty persons were ever found of the together. The Noble Earl also asserted that the law the land had been set at defiance ; but the law of the landbeen had not been set at defiance, for five or six persons had 1 , en arrested on the charge of being concerned in the out tirs• As at present advised, therefore, there was nothing in pi c ircumstances of the case which called upon him to com b3' w ith the ruisition which had been made. Letters which e had that morning received from Colonel Shaw Kennedy nfirMed hi m i n t h at o pi n i o n. In those letters Colonel Shaw Ken nedy stated that fifty additional constables had been or dered into the barony of Clanwilliam, and that no doubt was entertained that that measure would be found sufficient for the 1 I ,Ppression o f cr i m e. The Noble Earl talked of popularity. t ll he (Lord M u l gr a v e) had been capable of giving a thought 0 ( such a mot i ve o f act i on, h e s h ou ld h ave r e co ll ec t e d that the vi gorous execut i on o f t h e ex i st i ng l aw (which the Noble Earl ackn owledged t h a t h e h a d pushed further than any other man " Is situation during the last twenty years), would affect his • P°Polarity almost as much as the extension of the law. Act ling, however, on the responsibility attached to his high office, Pee was not prepared to say that the preservation of the public e‘ ace in Ireland required that he should be armed with any t . -4 ‘ e her authority than that of which the existing law had al ti,y Put him in possession. to ,'" Duke of WELLINGTON said, the Noble Earl had Al their Lordships that the tranquillity in Ireland alluded to nti the speech from the Throne was not judicial tranquillity, t at it was not what in fash i ona b le lan,guage was called agra i ~an tran qu illi ty, b ut t h at it was o nly political tranquillity. it se weed that only a few days before the delivery of the S peech fro m t h e Throne, in which the tranquillity of Ireland f a s Mentio ne d, the National Association, which ha d existed Or two years in that country, under the Ncble Earl's eYe, had b een di s s o lved ; under circumstances, however , e lt h h ielt chew e d 'h ow e asily it might be revived, should any th :nge of ministers take place mipaleatable to the leaders of association. That association, however, having been 'or the time dissolved, the Noble Earl seemed to con sider himself justified in declaring that the disturba nces Which existed in Ireland were not political, but agrarian. „ Noble Earl maintained that those disturbances we re tr ot th e consequence o f po li t i ca l ag itation. Now, what ~,4 11 , been the opinion of a Noble relation of his, one ref erence opinion s were of the greatest authority, with to Ireland as well as to every other country with which he had been officially connected ? When ti n' Nobl e re l a ti on wa s Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Preceded the Noble Viscount opposite in the government be en this country, he had declared, and the declaration had panegy r i se d in th e strongest manner by the Noble Earl t 0 1 Whom h e h a d a ll u ded, " that agrarian disturbance in Ireland was to be attributed to political agitation as much as a ny effect whatever could be attributed to its cause." No t only had this declaration been applauded by the Noble Earl 'tea at the head of the Government, but it had received the Unqualified approbation of the Noble and Learned Lord oppo, Site, wh o was at the time to which he (the Duke of Welling ton) adverted on the Woolsack. The Noble Earl opposite had over and over again admitted in his speech that there Were disturbances in Ireland, although he termed those dis turbances agrarain. The Noble Earl had added, that such had always been the case in Ireland : that it had been the C ase when he (the Duke of Wellington) had had the honour bebeeing Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant; that it had vra n th e ease at a su b sequent per i o d , w h en a Ri g h t H on . - d same. his in the other House of Parliament had held the it. IP,Dniatment. He (the Duke of Wellington) admitted N o b! ' e 'and was disturbed at both the periods to which the lurb e e d a ri alluded ; and it had been in a d.ff great degree dis thos v er since. But• what was the erence betw . een ande times and the present ? His Right Honourable Friend himself at once admitted the existence of disturb asked • They came d ow n to the House of Commons and for the means of suppresing them. They did not put speeches into the mouth of one Sovereign or of another Sove ;n, decl ar i ng t h at I re l an d w as in a state of tranquillity. t , ": they state d t h e p l a i n tru th ; they candidly admitted .pat Irel an d was in a state o f di stur b ance ; an d h av i ng ma d e i tt at fr an k admission, they asked P ar li ament to g i ve t h em Powers necessary to meet the evil. Let their Lord ships look a li tt l e to t h e genera l " t ra n qu illity" of Ire land, as it appe are d i n th e p a p e rs which had been laid before h e n ) . And here he must observe, that that House had not b een remark a bly we ll t reate d w i t h re f e r e nce to information on (he subject. It was true that they had before them some re • Ports from the inspectors of prisons in Ireland; but there was another report, that from the clerks of the peace and the Clerk s of the Crown, of the number of persons who had been e s ornmitted and tried for criminal offences in Ireland, which had been printed for the House of Commons, but had not b een printed for the House of Lords. That report was of a v ery different nature from the reports which had been printed for their Lordships' House. He would, however, read a part Of the fifteenth report of the inspectors of prisons in Ireland, ice sh ow the nature and amount of the offences which had been a 'erornitted in Ireland in the year 1836. The Noble Earl had S tated that there had been of late in Ireland an increased bomber of committals in proportion to offences, and an in- Cre ased number of convictions in proportion to committals. N e (the Duke of 'Wellington) admitted the fact, and gave the lad produced it. It must, however, be stated that the Po- I l i ce Bill, passed in the previous Session of Parliament, materially contributed to the result.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)s But their Lordships were bound not to conceal ors themselves what was the state of Ireland, as it I " o a r s to be gathered from the last Report of the prison inspec n Which e held in his hand. They would there find that I ta th i e Course of 1836 there were committed to the several 1) : 18 , of Ireland no fewer than 23,891 persons. Now, corn -110.e4 with the committals in England and Wales, there could es no doubt whatever that the state of crime in Ireland was inaornious.—( Hear.) In closing the Session of Parliament o f th is year 1836, the state of Ireland had been made a matter thic"gratulation in the Speech from the Throne, and yet in r ab s „, s 'ree year of " tranquillity," as it was termed, the official " t s gave the number of offences committed as 24,891. 10 tA r ilie had to call upon their Lordships to compare this return th e 4 836 with those of the preceding years. He bad been at 4, f ir out l e in to do so from 1828, and he found the result to be . I€4.inws , :—ln 1828, there were 14 633 committals; in 16, 00 ,: 5 ,271 ; in 1630, 15,794; in 1831, Act):,., 1833, 17,819; 1834 (the year of the Coercion 16,192; in 1832, . Was si ; . ' 3 Bl; in 1835, 21,265 ; and in 1836, 23,891. Here e°tintr . °rtrinus increase from 1828, and yet the st ate of the I h u ea ii r i . ) y tv i in 1 836 was called a state of tranquillity.—( Hear, in , 1 836 in this year—this remarkable year of tran tour i'n--what land had happeneat d ? cccasion The Noble Earl made a to Ire, and on th thought proper eaerei . Person s. se his prerogative—to pardon no less than 1,3(10 Pers on --( Hear, hear.) Now, though he was the last not question the right of the Noble Earl, he did Praro hesitate to say that to this exercise of the Royal IreianTive was mainly attributable the increase of offenca sin Since the period to which he had alluded there was eaii, had . . f eel no propeaty connections in Ireland who did not as LI at there was a total absence of security as well for life Pr o esi • P e rt Y.—( Hear.) It was said that most of the outrages b o t t,eiafted with the rotestant portion of the community ; but SO, were the repeated attacks on the Protestant clergy • Irel and to be explained. N ate , R AVE observed, that since lie had been con. a p ro '', with Irel an d t h ere h a d not b een O t t e case of assault on Protestant clergyman. e o 4e Duke of WELLINGTON said no man in the country h ear say that his property was his own or his life safe.—( Hear, th e in i!ut it wa - sim' per - tan:to examine the classification . of ‘ U n d er "01 cases committed for trial , in the tranquil 1836. !gat es the head of offences against the person, he found the 'or e i th 1 . 7 69 ; and of these there were 843 (just two a day) kur er murder, conspiracy to murder, assault with intent to • der' or manslauea t•r ( Hear.) In 1836—astheir Lord -11 vs s h ot l es ould mind—the boasted year of tranquillity, there were risk ed s than 8 43 cases in wh i ch human lif e w as attacked or hurai -- (Cheers.) There were 500 malicious offences, N t ,,, u Fs, burglaries, and robberies of arms.—( Hear , hear.) rie us , he thought this was a prettS , large number of se h‘llot th !'ences fo r a year o f tranquillity.—( Hear, bear.) account, bad as it was, was not the mo st for inspect • t ho le ' He had been hitherto referring to the report p a , ors of prisons ; h e h a d now to direct their Lord h• t trah he t e il ° Cl e tin t i es in at tention t o another report, co ntaining the returns from Cl er k s of ; :s the Crow n an d Clarks of the Peace of the sev e- Irela n d, o f t h e num b er o f persons committed levea purls of Ireland d ur i ng t h e y ear 1836. This he be toc_lr the most correct return of the two, and he, for , ro u oa theTa most reliance upon it. He would not go be t all rizitiliiits e rn d e ntion . ing. its detail s , b ut i t state d one f ac t w hich be could t e p It represented the number of persons te _ . r crime in Ireland, during 1836, as 14,00 0 more at given in the report of the Prison Inspectors. He 'ME SUN LONDON, TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 8, 1837. tha: all this g as not vety fair: it might ba very proper t make allusions to expressions allich bad dropped from him or any one e!sc, but when they fixed with such particular as i dity on one sentence, when they founded so heavy a charge upon one paragraph in a speech, it was but fair that they should state the actual words he had made use of on the occa sion in question in connection with the other words of the pas sage. As thcy,had not done this, he must be excused for doing it himself, although there were no productions to us hick ho referred with such little pleasure as his own spec !hes.—( A laugh.) The whole sentence in which this unfortunate pas sage occurred was the following :—" At the same time, my Lords, that I propose this measure, I am fully aware of the effects which it will produce, and of the objections which may be urged against it. I am deeply sensible and much concerned at the impraKion which I feel tiya it will make. I cannot con ceal from myself' that it will he in the first instancy, and fir a certain time, a 11... a v -r blow and a peat discouragement to Pro testrilism in I eLnri, and th,t it will ba also a meat triumph to the adverse party. lam well aware that it is not the same thing to destroy as never to have constituted ; to demolish as never to have built up ; but this evil, which I trust will be but temporary, is forced upon me by the untoward circumstances which I have already described. I cannot avoid it, and that which I cannot avoid I must submit to with as much patience as I can command, and temper with as much remedy and alteration as it is in my power to administer." Noble Lords would do him the justice to perceive that in this short sentence there were some very gratifying expressions. It made a clear distinction between the immediate effects of the measure which it proposed and its ultimate results. It dis tinctly stated, that though the contemplated measure might in the first instance prove "a heavy blow and a great discou ragement to Protestantism in Ireland," yet that in the end it would greatly benefit Protestantism, and it was in this view that he had introduced it to their Lordships. He had only to ask, that whenever any person in future did him the honour of quoting the words referred to, they would do him also the favour of reading the whole passage, and not dwell upon " a heavy blow and a great discouragement," &c.-(A laugh)._ without making some mention of the qualification or modifica tion with which the phrase was accompanied in his speech.— ( Hear.) He would conclude by saying, that it had been to him a matter of great concern, that a person of such eminence as the Noble Earl who introduced the subject—a person of such unquestionable honour and such pure principles, should have formed such an opinion on the present state of Ireland, and should have conceived such an apprehension and alarm on the subject. It would be indeed great matter of concern to the Administration, if there were any truth in the view which the Noble Earl had taken of the subject; and if the Noble Earl were, as he rarely was, erroneous, it would still be mat ter of deep concern to them, since it showed to how great an extent the most honourable minds might be led astray by their prejudices.—( Hear, hear.) He fully trusted that the anticipations of the Noble Earl would be found incorrect and unjust : he trusted that a very different state of things was to be expected from the country in question ; and he was confi dent that while the Noble Lord near him remained at the head of affairs in that country, lie would do his utmost to maintain impartial justice, ai.d secure the prosperity and happiness of all classes of her Majesty's subjects in that part of her domi nions. —( Hear, hear.) After a few words from Lord LORTON, which were not heard in the gallery, Lord BROUGHAM said that the recollection of tbeNoble Duke opposite appeared to differ very strangely from his own in reference to the occasion alluded to by the Noble Duke. He (Lord Brougham) had not the slightest recollection of having said, or assented to any such doctrine, that prwdial or agrarian outrage might always be traceable to political agita tion.—( Hear, hear.) He had never sail any such thing : lie was quite of a contrary opinion. The Noble Duke, doubtless, was quite justified in reminding him (Lord Brougham) of his support of the Coercion Bill. That Bill he had supported, and on the ground that the duties of protection and allegiance were reciprocal--( Hear, hear)—and that Government had no right to call on the people fur allegiance, if it were not pre- Fared to afford them in return its protection.—( Hear, hear, hear.) That language he had then held ; and he should bold it again, if is similar sad necessity were to arise. The Noble Duke had also referred to the opinion of a Noble relative of his, once Lord-Lieutenant of Leland, to the same effect, that was to say. connecting agrarian outrage with poli tical agitation. Now, although he (Lord Brougham) enter tained the highest respect for the illustrious statesman in ques tion, than whom a better man or more enlightened friend to his country never existed..---(llear, hear)---) et he could not low even to that high authority on the present point. He greatly doubted, indeed, the accuracy of the Noble Duke, when he refereed to the Nobleman in question as a corrobora tive authority. The Nobleman referred to may have said that political agitation • had in some cases, and at certain times, Leen productive of agrarian outrage, for instance, in 1832-3, but it was impossible for any one acquainted with the subject seriously to describe the things as necessarily connected.— ( Hear.) As to the Coercion Bill, though he had been led by cruel and heartbreaking necessity to support its passing, yet he could honestly say that he had never experienced greater delight than when altered circumstances afforded him the oppoitunity of contributing to put an end to it. But how was it that all this discussion had arisen out of two words in the Queen's Speech ? lic had thought that speeches from the throne had been held to be of no import—mere spe cimens of the art of putting the least possible meaning into the greatest possible number of words, yet upon two sm ords in a speech from the Throne had all this grave dis cussion, all these weighty charges been founded, backed by a formidable apparatus of statistics. Why, even the author of the speech himself said that he had never intended to say a word about Ireland any more than about Guernsey, Jersey, Alderney, or Sark—( A laugh)—in particular ; all he wanted to express was the general domestic tranquillity which prevailed ; and certainly, looking at the state of things which prevailed, both in England and Ireland, at the time the Noble Duke had handed over the government to his successors in office, and the state of things now, he ( Lord Brougham) thought that the term " general domestic tranquillity" would not be entirely misapplied. He thought it would be difficult for any Noble Lord opposite to. show any country, however peaceable, in which offences such as those which had b een spoken of exclusively in reference to Ireland did not prevail. One great topic with Noble Lords opposite was the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, and this gentleman had been ad duced by the Noble Earl as an authority for saying that tu mults had been here, disturbances there, and that riot was ad vancing rapidly on another side, when it was stopped —not by the police, not by the soldiery, not by the magistrates, but by a speech from the lion. and Learned Gentleman.—( A laugh.) Now, however disposed he ( Lord Brougham) was, from all he had heard and witnessed of the effects of eloquence, to give full credit to the influence of the orator, yet he must confess that be doubted much of the magnitude of the re volt which could be turned aside by a few words from even the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in question.—( A laugh ) The inference which had been drawn by the Noble Earl from the facts stated, from the picture he had drawn of the state of the country under the administration of the present Lord Lieutenant, appeared to him altogether erroneous. The Noble Earl had acknowledged that the Lord Lieutenan t h a d done all he could to enforce • the common law ; that every ordinary engine had been put into operation for this purpose, by constables and magistrates • but that the comm on l aw had been found inefficient. Did the Noble Earl go on to say that the ordinary statute law should have been put into operation, and had not been? No ; on the contrary, he said that it had been tried, and found wanting. Did the Noble Earl go back to his third parallel, 'and say that the extraor dinary powers of 1833 would have answered his object if they had been put into °aeration ? No, no such thing ; for the Noble Earl expressly said, " I can tell the Noble Lord- Lieutenant that if he had put the extraordinary powers in force they would have been just as ineffective as the com mon and es the statute law have been 4, So that if the ' Lord- Lieutenant of Ireland should at a future time re quire a reason for not acceding to magistrates' requisitions for the Coercion Act enforcement, here was one afforded by a distinguished Lord-Lieutenant of a county. It was said that the ordinary and extraordinary powers of the executive Government were insufficient to meet the exi gencies of the administration, and some new power must be given them. Then what new extended power could be given ? All the ordinary means had been adopted, and that which remained gas the Arms Act, a Bill most hateful to the people, and most justly odious, the no of which was bad enough, but the nature of which was a stigma to all. Irishmen. He would say to this proposition, let them do what they liked, but let them not pass the Arms Bill. Whatever new vexati ous, harassing, or tormenting powers might be given to the Magistrates, they might be received with comparative satisfac tion ; but he was sure that the Act to which he - referred would from the beginning be totally inoperative, • null, and of no effect; and he doubted whether even one stand of arms would be found to be borne in Tipperary to carry out the measures of the Bill. He had considered the measure, not only with regard to Ireland, but with regard to other countries, and he had no hesitation in pronouncing it as his decided opinion that any new legislation in that miserable direction would be pro ductive of every species of hatred ; he did not mean mere want of popularity, which the Noble Earl in the discharge of his duties would despise; but independently of that it would induce an utter hatred where interest and duty ought to cherish a feeling of a far different character, and the real ultimate gain to be obtained from it might be summed up in a cipher.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped therefore sincerely that no such measure would be adopted. He had no fear of the Noble Earl again exposing himself to another charge, that of being induced by any party or by the leader of any party to appoint persons to situations for which they were not at all qualified, because he knew that he would honourably defend himself from it ; and he hoped, that t as im t l interest b heeingobtained oisuch h e p n e r s n o o n s a s d v e ou u l d a t e be m n e o ri reason s t f ed or , promo se, on theiv3lraoi otherßrougham' sg thya,sm ) hand ilMinisters,o, looked t ethem asl not wa callsroe, pa s fur onnd s promotion nothing ibeingthem. withheld where it was j ust l y d ue. The Noble Earl acted under her liament the if peop le, Earl lie too,wo would be d t to doing know an teething injustice,oof ft l a t n eh y e( thing else. he Noble d • members of Associ a ti ons ; h e meant of legal Associations , which the law did nreprobate, or ot which the law did not put down.theyweexre eluded any per sons f rom s i tuations merely because Lord RODEN—Hear, hear. Lord BBOUG HAM would be plain with his Noble Friend ; the fact of any person being a member of the Catholic Asso ciation should form no bar t o hi s b e i ng promoted, whore no other cause existed. It w ou ld b e well if it had been a lways s o, and if the idea had not gone a b road that the Catholic Emancipation to ogi t v h e r such situati ons s h ou ld be given to them alone. :t not only the p ower o f granting ua tions to c Bill ath ol Ta es s , but The Duke of WELLINGTON, in reference to some ob servations which had fallen from the Noble Lord who had just situations sat down, would take leave to read a passage from a dispatch had taken the trouble to go through the two returns, and the above was the important result he met with.—( Hear, hear.) He did not know how to account for the discrepancies, but the fact was as he stated it. In the report of the Prison Inspec tors, the number of persons committed to the several gaols 'n the county of Tipperary, in 1836, was stated to have been 1,557. Now, in the other report, that from the Clerks of the Crown and Clerks of the Peace, there was given es the number committed to the gaol of Clonmel 442, and to .the several other gaols of the county 5,412, making a total of 5,854. Here was a discrepancy of no less than 4,297 in one county alone ; and if their Lordships carried on the compari son throughout, _they would find, as he had done, that the gross difference between the two accounts was no less than 14,000, which, added to the amount given in the Prison Inspectors' re port, made the total of committals in 183 G—the tranquil 1836- 67,891. The Noble Earl had alluded to the manner in which the police of Ireland had done its duty, and he was bound to say thst the eulogies he had passed on that body were well merited. The police had well done its duty ; but had the Noble Earl as well done his duty ? Had he allowed to be carried into execution the sentence of the law, when, through the exertions of the police, convictions had. been procured ? ( Hear, hear.) Had there not been on the part of the Noble Earl some little seeking after popularity, besides that which ought to result from the strict performance of duty in the execution of his judicial functions—he used the term advisedly, in connection with the prerogative of the Crown ?—( Cheers. ) He really thought the House of Lords was bound to have all these matters brought before them in some clear and intelligi ble manner. They ought to know what was the real state of crime in the country. As the case was before the House at present--no matter whether estimated by the report of the prison-inspectors, or the other to which he alluded as sent by the Clerks of the Crown—he did maintain that the word " tranquillity" did not apply to Ireland. It was impossible for the House to know clearly what had occurred since the date of the returns contained in these reports ; but, as far as his private information went, he was able to corroborate what had been stated on his side of the House With reference to the present state of the county of Tipperary. Certainly, up to the period of the Assizes, and he believed he might carry on the account up to the present moment, it had been ascertained that in that important part of Ireland--important as well in extent as in reference to the disturbances which had prevailed in it, there had been no decline, no diminution, in crime since 1836. The same, he believed, was the case in other parts of Ireland ; and if so, he challenged any of their Lord ships to assert that the word " tranquillity" applied to any part of Ireland at the present moment. The Noble Earl, in his speech, had not alluded in any way to an important feature in the history of the present state of Ireland, namely, the marching through the country of armed .bodies, in open defiance of all authority.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It might perhaps be difficult to prevent these marchings, but while they continued it was absurd to say that Ireland v. as tranquil.—(Cheers.) The Earl of M ULG RAVE begged to explain. In there turn of the clerks of the peace and clerks of the crown, there were very often given the same offences three times over—that was to say, the one offence, say a case of assault, was put down first as a case of assault, secondly, as a case of riot, and thirdly, as a case of rescue..—( Hear.) In this way it was three times stated in the returns, and in some instances, where a postponement from one assize to another was found neces sary, the case so tripled was repeated, thus making the one offence appear as six.---( Hear, hear.) With regard to the observations made by the Noble Duke respecting the appli cation of the term " tranquillity" to Ireland, he had but to observe, that he and his colleagues in the Government only used it in the sense that the general state of the country was such as to justify the House in examining the political measures about being brought before it in connection with that part of the kingdom. The Noble Duke lia:1 alluded to his exercise of the prerogative of mercy. Upon this point he was anxious, and would take an early opportunity, to lay before their Lordships a return he had prepared of the number of cases in which he had exercised this right. At present he should only state, that in 800 cases (round numbers) he had been memorialised, and that in one-half of these he had, on examination, returned unfavourable answers. Of the re maining cases lie had decided in about 100 upon medical cer tificates, without reference to the judges; and with this ex. ception, and also the exception of persons engaged in the Orange processions, he had invariably required their opinion on the merits of the application.—( Hear.) Viscount MELBOURNE (who was very indistinctly heard in the reporters' gallery) was understood to regret he had not anticipated the Noble Duke's touchiness and jealousy in reference to the terms proper for Ministerial writings. Had he done so, he assured him that in tfie concoction of her Majesty's Speech from the Throne special care should have been taken that uothing should be introduced calculated to wound either of these newly-acquired attributes. Upon this document the Noble Duke had been most unusually severe. Not only had he accused the Government of putting into the Speech what they ought not to have touched upon, but he charged them with not understanding what they did speak of, and of applying words generally which were only appli cable to particular parts of the kingdom. He said, " You have applied the terms ' domestic tranquillity' to the whole of the empire ; but you don't mean that, for there is what is called prredial crime in Ireland, and therefore that portion of the United Kingdom must be abstracted from the picture." Now, with all due deference to the Noble Duke, he begged to say it was not his intention to apply the terms "domestic tranquillity" to Ireland any more than to the remainder of the kingdom ; nor was it his intention to apply it less to that country than to its neighbours.—( Hear, hear.) And he put it to the sshole House fairly and distinctly to say whether the present state of the British empire was not such as to justify the use of the terms in its full acceptance.—( Hear, hear.) If the Government could not now use the words, they never could use them.—( Hear, hear.) If they were to wait until there was no crime in Ireland, or any other part of the empire, they never would be able to say that there was domestic tranquil lity. But when they saw that in Ireland the authority of the law was vindicated without difficulty, that property and life were in safety, and that there was no apprehension of any breach of the public peace, he would maintain that he was per fectly justified in the application of the terms, and he was sure in this the House, or at least the majority, would fully bear him out.—(Hear, hear.) If, however, the words were so very offensive to the Noble Duke—if it were established that the Noble Duke and his party were to be even dissatisfied at the very idea that all was going on well in Ireland—why, he would strain a point in future, and, as far as was consistent with his duty, shun all allusion to these obnoxious terms.— ( Hear, hear, hear, and a laugh.) It was a difficult thing to please all parties in the framing of Royal speeches, but he felt that in the present instance there was as little ground for animadversion as it was possible there could be. The Noble Duke had spoken of agrarian disturbances in Ire land as proceeding entirely from political agitation, and in support of his opinion had referred to that of a Noble relative, which, although, perhaps, on all subjects was not with him of the same weight, was in the present case made by the Noble Duke perfectly oracular.—( A laugh.) According to both those distinguished authorities agrarian outrage proceeded en tirely from political agitation. Now, though it was undoubted that at present the two went together, it was not the case that there never was agrarian outrage without political agitation. He had traced the history of agrarian outrage in Ireland to a very distant period. He feared that it had existed as far back as 1760, which was long before any political agitation pre vailed.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Duke seemed to imply that it was the duty of the Government to have asked Parlia ment for extended powers to suppress disturbance in Ireland, for he vaunted the conduct of his own and other Administra tions for having so done. But did the Noble Duke mean to say that the state of Ireland demanded extended powers? Was it possible that the Noble Duke considered it the duty of the Government to come down, under present circumstances, and in the present condition of Ireland, and say to Parliament that extended powers were requisite to preserve the peace of that country ? In his opinion, the odium and obloquy which invariably attended the demand on the part of any Govern ment for extended powers did more to weaken than strengthen that Government.—( Cheers.) It was riot Isis intention to go into the returns which had been laid on the table : the deductions which had been drawn from them by the Noble Lord were anything but infallible. The crime of one year might be totally different in its charac ter from that of a preceding year, and it was impossible to form any satisfactory judgment from the mere com parison of the number of offences in one year with the number of offences in another. If the increase in any year was very great, unquestionably this might form a fair ground for inference, but there must always be observed a great deal of caution in arriving at conclusions in such questions. The appeal which had been made to his Noble Friend and himself he ,was most ready to answer. The Noble Earl had requested of his Noble Friend ( Lord Mulgrave), that he would use the powers entrusted to him for the maintenance of the public tranquillity, and that he would not appoint persons to offices which they were not capable of filling properly. He (Lord telbourne) would answer for his Noble Friend, that such would ever be the course of his conduct. One observation which the Noble Lord opposite had made he might well have spared, when he asked the Noble Lord Lieutenant o f I re l an d w hether some unwo rth y seeking after popularity had nev er in fluenced him in the e xercise of the prerogative of mercy. If the Noble Earl thought he had any grounds for such an impu tation, it was the duty of the Noble Earl to call upon the House to inquire into all the circumstances of the case ; but the Noble Earl ought to be very sure that he had some grounds for making observations such as these, before he ventured t o cast such imputations on so high a public officer—on a noble man to whom such import ant functions, to whom the preroga tive of mercy had been en trusted by his Sovereign.—( Hear.) The Noble Earl had talked reproachfully about the power which he (Lord Melbourne) and his Noble Friend possessed. As to his own (Lord Melbourne's) power, he was compelled to believ e , w h en h e looked on the benches opposite, that it was not altogether so p re d om inant as to seduce him, into any intoxi cating feeli ngs .—( A l a u g h.) The Noble Laid opposite had not, of course, failed to give his repetition to the now almost worn-out expres s i on w hi c h had fallen from his ( Lord Mel bourne's) mouth some tao years back, and which had never, by any chance, been since omitted in the speech of any nobleman or gentlemen of opposite political opinions who could by any possibility bring it in.—(hear, hear.) The expression to which he alluded was, " a heavy blow and great discouragement to Protestantism in Ireland"—(A laugh);—and this expression had been a staple commodity with all adverse orators ever sinc e . A Right Reverend Prelate in his discourse to his clergy ; Sir Robert Peel in his magnificent and with-the-most-surprising-rapidity-erected banquet-room at Glasgow ; the late Right Hon. Member for Cumberland ; almost all the noblemen on the opposite benches, and almost all the noble, right honourable, and honourable Members on the correspondin g b enc h es i n t h e other House. All Yahops, ministers, ex-minist ers , mem b ers I of the Lords' House, and members of the ComMons' House, seemed to gloat over this little passage. Now he begged to say of Lord Wellesley when he was Lord Lieutenant in Ireland. His Lorthhip, in reference to some recent outrages, said that the system of agitation and its inevitaLle consequence, the system of combination, led to violence and outrage—they were the incessant cause apd effect, no:. could he, after consi deration, by any effort of his understanding, separate one from the miter in the unbroken chain of indissoluble connection. Lord BROUGHAM said that it by no means followed that an agrarian outrage. was always connected with political agi tation. _ . The Duke of WELLINGTON—I said that the agrarian outrage was the consequence of political agitation. Lord BROUGH A Nl—But there is no political agitation now. The Duke of WELLINGTON—There was, though, last year.—(A laugh.) Lord RODEN thought that ha had 'scarcely been fairly dealt with in his heic.2- called upon to answer to certain ex ,ressions reported to havc been used by Wm at a dinner at Belfast. It might be that a speaker in the course of a de bate was induced to use expressions which at other times he might not employ, but he knew that he never could have said that which was attributed to him. He regretted also exceed i igly that any allusions had been made to Colonel Conolly, more especially as the grounds of observations in that case also had been taken from a newspaper. He need hardly say that that gentleman was a most highly-respectable person, and the epithet applied to him was by no means warranted by cir cumstances, and he felt sure that if the Noble Earl had applied to that gentleman himself, such an answer would have been given as would have entirely removed Ant he felt was a pre. judice which existed against him. With regard to what had fallen from the Noble Lord who had addressed the House on theiubject of the appointment of the officers of Government, he had no hesitation in saying that lie entirely agreed with him in the opinions which he had expressed ; and he thought that all persons should be put on the same footing, and that there should be no difficulty in appointments on any grounds of religion. He wished, however, that the Government had carried out the opinion which they appeared to entertain in all instances ; but he could not but state that many persons who had belonged to an association which rag not contrary to the law—the Irish Association—had not only been refused situations, but had been turned out of aloes which they held merely because they belonged to that soc:ety. He sincerely rejoiced at the debate which had taken place, be. cause he felt no doubt that the eyes of many persons, who had before been unacquainted with the present position of affairs in Ireland, would be opened by it. The Earl of M 13L GRAVE said that he would offer only one observatimi to the House in allusion to what had fallen from the Noble Lord and the Noble Earl who hal last spoken. He had himself, of his own accord, appointed several deputy Lieutenants of counties and several other persons to situations who, from their positions, were open to tha objections which had been pointed out. No such reasons as had been suggested had ever induced him to appoint any individual to an office, or to refuse his appointment.—( Hear.) The Return of the Papers moved for by the Earl of Roden was then ordered, and the House adjourned at fire minutes before Eleven o'Clock. HOUSE OF COHMONS.--Non 27. The SPEAKER took the chair at a fex minutes to four o'clock. Mr. Campbell, from the India House, appeared at the Bar, and presented Returns of Compensation granted to the re duced Officers of the East India Company.—Laid on the table. ELECTION PETITIONS. The SPEAKER acquainted the HOU3C that he had received through the lianaper Offiee petitions complaining of undue returns for the County of Carlow, the .Borough of Carlow, the Borough of Sligo, and the Queen's County. The petitions were severally ordered to be taken into consi deration on the 12th of December. Mr. HODGE S presented a petition from an individual in Kent, complaining of a decision in his case in the Revising Barrister's Court, and praying for re lief. He ( Mr. Hodges) was not aware of any relief which the House could grant, unless a Bill were pass :d in order to insure a uniformity of d , cision in those Courts. On the motion of Sir R.` ING LIS, the Library Committee was re-appointed. The Hun. Baronet presented a peti tion from 5,048 inhabitants and householders of Cheltenham, pray ing that a system of national education might be instituted, in which there might be a daily readin4 of the Scriptures. Ile cordially concurred in the prayer of the petition, as it entirely met with his views. Mr. BROTH E RTON presented a petition from Salford praying for the establishment of a national system of education. SLAVERY. Sir E. WILMOT presented a petition, which had been agreed to a few days since at a large meeting, which took place at Exeter-hall, praying for the abolition of the apprenticeship clause in the Slavery Bill. That clause, instead of being productive, as the promoters of it supposed, of the best results, had engendered a great deal of evil. The Hon. Member was about to enter into the de tails of the petition when he was interrupted by The SPEAKER, who said that if the Hon. Member was about to enter into the details of the petition, and to make a speech upon those details, he must be aware that it was against the regulation adopted by the House. Sir E. WILMOT said, that if, according to the regulations of the House, he was to be debarred from entering into the details of the petition, his only course would be to give notice of his intention to present the petition, and to withdraw it for the present. The SPEAKER said that that was the proper course to adopt. Mr. WAKLE Y presented a petition from several of the electors of Finsbury, praying for an inquiry into the manner in which medical men discharged their duty towards the poor in the different unions in the metropolis. Mr. PE AS E presented a petition from Durham, iim favour of the abolition of the Apprenticeship Clause, in the Slavery Abolition Bill. Mr. J. GIBSON presented a petition from Belfast, pray ing the House to prohibit the sale of intoxicating spirits on the Lord's Day. Time Hun. Member strongly supported the prayer of the petition, aid trusted that %alien this matter came again before the consideration of the House, the prayer of the petition would be kept in mind. IRISH MAGISTRACY. Colonel VERNON gave notice that on the 20th of next month he should move for a copy of the correspondence be tween her Majesty's Government in Ireland, and (as we un derstood) the Home Secretary, respecting the removal of Con• stabulary Officers and Justices of the Peace. PRESBYTERIAN OATHS. Mr. J. GIBSON presented a petition from Belfast, pray. ing that Presbyterian Clergymen should be allowed to make Oath in all cases where Oath was required by swearing with uplifted hands. NAVAL PROMOTION. Captain DUN DA S moved for a return of the names of the mates, midshipmen, and volunteers of the first class, who had passed their examination on the Ist of January, 1835, with the names of the ships in which they had served. The Honourable and Gallant Member also moved for a return of the amount of freight money received by the Commissioners of Greenwich Hospital under the new Art, DESTRUCTION OF THE LATE 110 USES OF PARLIAMENT. Sir F. POLLOCK rose to give notice that on Tuesday next he would call the attention of the House to the Report of the Select Committee of last Session respecting compensation to the late Speaker and the Officers of the House for the pro perty of their's which was lost in the destruction of the Houses by fire. The Hon. and Learned Member then moved that the Report be laid on the table and printed.—Ordered. • MUNICIPAL DECLARATION. Mr. BAINES brought in a Bill, which was read a first time, entitled the Municipal Officers' Declaration Bill.— Ordered to he read a second time on Thuriday. Mr. 11U ME gave notice that on Tuesday next be would move for an account of the number of persons on the register for 1836 and 1837, in every county, city, and borough in Englfnd—( Hear)—also for a return of the number of persons who actually polled at any contest during the late general election.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He would also move for similar returns, with respect to Ireland and Scotland. On the- same day he would ask her Majesty's Government when that part of the Speech from the Throne relating to Canada would be taken into consideration. And on the same day he would move for a copy of the Report made by the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of Malta. Mr. E. BULLER presented several petitions from differeni parishes in Staffordshire, praying for the Abolition of Church. rates. ELECTION PETITIONS. Lord J. RUSSELL said—Sir, I wish to state to the House that a doubt has occurred, though I do not think a very reasonable doubt, with respect to the course taken upon the last sitting of the House in regard to election petitions. It is required that in certain cases within five days, and in othercases within ten days before the sitting of the Committee, I sts should be made out of the objections and lists exchanged. The clause goes on to say that if the Committee should be afterwards postponed then it-will be sufficient that the lists should be exchanged within the time fixed, before the sitting of the Committee, as postponed. It does not seem to me that any fair doubt can arise on the sub ject ; but I am told that there are persons of authority who thihk there is a doubt on the subject, and that as the Election Committees now stand fixed for the 12th - daf of December, that ten days before that time the parties would feel themselves obliged to give in their list. I state this to the House, not as entertaining any doubt my self, but in order that the point may not be over looked ; and if it is, so that the House should not take into consideration any of the petitions before the adjournment of the House. If there were any ground for doubt, I would endeavour to remove that doubt to-morrow or thanext day; but I would not wish to take up the time of the House, unless it appears to Hon. Members there are great doubts on the subject. But looking to the words of the clause, which, Sir, I do not intend to quote, I think there cannot be any rational doubt on the subject. Mr. W. W. WYNN was understood to express his con currence in the observations of the Noble Lord. Sir R. PEEL said that he was placed in some difficulty by the course which the Noble Lord had taken ; for the Noble Lord had given his notice . in the same terms as he (Sir Robert Peel) had given his. If the Noble Lord named early days after Christmas, then it would not bo necessary for him ( Sir R. Peel) to take the course which he had intended, as the Noble Lord's notice stood for the same object as that which he had intended to make. Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought there could not be the least doubt that the petitions must be postponed until after the holidays. ELECTION PETITIONS BILL. Mr. C. BULLER then moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Election Petitions gip, Lord STANLEY said—Sir e I beg tr..' :::Ture the Hon. and Learned Member that it is with no hostility to the object which he has in view, or to the mode by which he proposes to effect it, that I rise to suggest the absolute necessity Of post poning the consideration of this Bill. Ido not base this suggestion on the details of the Bill or on its principle. But the House will recollect the same day on which the the Hon. and Learned Gentleman introduced his Bill, ano ther Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the Member for Dublin, obtained leave to bring in a Bill to effect the same object, but pursuing an entirely opposite course. I trust, therefore, that the Hon. Gentleman will not press this Bill forward at pre sent. Mr. C. BULLER was understood to say that he saw no reason why he should not press the second reading of his Bill. Lord STANLEY.,-„The House ti" 3.3 desirous, before they came to a consideration of either of these ineasurs to see tlit both were placed before them, that they might have the power of judging between one and the other, or of rejecting both.—( Hear, hear.) But the adoption of the two is a muter of absolute imposs.bility.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member insists upon our now coming to a decision in favour of the se cond rcadingof his Bill, in preference to another which we have given leave to the Honourable Member for Dublin to introduce, which we have not even yet heard detailed, but of which we know this much, that it proceeds upon prin ciples directly opposed to the Hon. Member for Liskeard's. After having pledged ourselves to the second reading of this Bill, in what possible manner can we discuss the Bill of the Hon. Member for Dublin ?—(Hear, hear.) That Bill I do not say that I prefer to the Bill of the Hon. Member for Liskeard, but they are so clearly and entirely different that the House cannot adopt the principle of both of them, and it is necessary that we should hear the fundamental principles of both of them before we can decide on the adoption of either. hear,) The Han. Member for Liskeard proposes to make a' slight alteration in the formation of Election Committees, and grounds his proposal upon the assertion that the Committee, as now constituted, formed a very partial tribunal, because they are partisans interested. The Honourable Member for Dublin says, I admit that hoirig interested parties, the Members of this House are not fit to be the Judges in these cases. I propose, therefore, to take these cases out of their control, and refer thorn to the consideration of a tribunal independent of this House, and connected with the Courts of Law. Now I should very much object to the taking the consideration of these questions of Parliamentary law out of the controul of this , House, and referring them to another tribunal ; but then we are bound to consider the reasons which the Honourable Member for Dublin brings forward in sup port of his plan. The objection of the Learned itlember for Dublln to the Bill of the Honourable Member for Lis keard is one of great we;ght; if the present tribunal, at constituted by a ballot from the House of eleven - Mem bers be fundamentally and grossly partial, so that you cannot entrust the consideration of election petitions to that tribunal. The Bill now before us affords no remedy whatever. I am not actuated by any particular feeling of partiality against this Bill, and it is n.,t even my intention to object to the second reading of it ; but I stand upon the common-sense of the thing; and I ask wlicther a postronem.mlt of the second reading of the Bill, which will enable the House, and narti euhaly new Members, to become acquainted with its details is not infinitely preferable to a course which, to say the least of it, will give us a very iruper:ect notion of its merits.—( Ilear.) Sin g with.respeet to the postponement in point of time, if it had been the intention of the tion - mrall'e Member to apply the principle of the Bill to the isetitions now pending, then might there be some reason for this excessive haste ; but this is not the case. The Honourable Member in a clause of the Bill—which by the bye has been printed, and which he cannot now depart from—provides that the Bill shall not come into operation until the last day of this Parliament, and he consequently admits that the Bill is not intended to apply to the petitions bow pending: We have, therefore, until August to consider its details ; and I cannot see that, if we postpone the second r. a ling, of it until February, that we shall thereby be throwing any obstacle in its way. With reference to the Bills of the Honourable Gentleman and of the Honouraide Member for Dublin, I for one do not joist to the full extent in the abuse which has been poured on the Election Committees. Ido not go the length of saying that it is impossible to find a tribu nal of gentlemen so corrupt and insensible to every feeling of honour, that a matter of fact and evidence cannot be entrusted to them without their giving a .verdict biased by party feeling. Sir, I wish the House in considering this question would distin guish a little between the gross corruption which would give a false verdict upon facts for political and party puposes, and that natural and, I might say, unavoidable bias which must weigh with honestest men's minds when certain questions arc submitted to their consideration. The fault is not so much in the constitution of. election tribunals as the subject matter brought before them. The fault is not that Members cannot be trusted to give a fair and hosourable verdict on matters of fact, but that the points brought before Election Committees are more or less nice points of law and controverted questions, on which much may be said upon the one side and the other, the point being of no importance except in the particu lar case, but of, very great importance in the particular case. Every Member knowing that the decision he makes on that point immaterial in itself, and doubtful as to its being right or wrong, has a direct and palpable bearing on the question before him. It was for these reasons—it was because the Comrni:tee was appointed to try matters not of fact but of law, and matters of law, be it remembered, with the knowledge of the precise bearing it would have on the political interests before Inm—it was for these reasons that the honestest and purest minded men would naturally, some on the one side and some on the other, decide points immaterial in tin mielves in different manners, because the law was uncerta:n, and because he knew what the bearing of his opinion would be. He felt, therefore, that it was not the constitution of the tribunal, but the uncertainty of the law they bad to complain of. To begin at the right end —(hear, hear, from Mr. Wynn)—and to satisfy both parties for no party could prosper by opposing a vote in such a way and, above all, to avoid the discredit thrown upon their decisions, they must pro ceed in the right course, which was to simplify and refine the law.—( Hear, hear.) They should alter the duties Election Committees had to try; in the first place (which was the best part of the Hon. Member's Bill), they should appoint some tribunal to which reference should be made upon disputed questions arising before the Revising Barrister—not in refer ence to the law as heard upon any particular case, but generally in reference to the law upon Election Petitions, and laying down that law fur the guidance of all future Election Committees. As the law at present stood, not only was there uncertainty as to how a Committee might decide up; on a newspoint, but as the cases which now arose were different in some part, so there were many precedents for a Committee to decide both ways. Therefore it was that a paramount au thority, which should lay down the law generally, without any reference to.a particular case. In his opinion, ii a Con-lams." of Barristers were appointed from the Revising Banisters and sat as a Court of Appeal, in a few, a very few years, ali the possible cases which could arise in the election law would be settled, and the duties of Committees on petitions would, be rendered easier, and comparatively unimportant. If the House would permit him he would throw out a suggestion for its consideration, and that of the Hon. Member for Liskeard. He thought it would be practicable to appoint a Committee from all sides of the House, in whose opinions both the Housp and the country would have confidence..( Hear, hear.) To them he would have all conflicting decisions of former Committees referred, and they should lay down their view of the general law—that they should down, as far as possible, rules of practice, and rules of law, to be a guide for all future Committees, and would be the practice heroJter. He would also propose that the rules so laid down shmild be formed into law by a short declaratory Act, which he had no doubt would be easily passed both Houses of the Legislature. If, in such a Committee, it was found that those members of it belonging to one party decided one way, and that members belonging to the opposite party invariably took an opposite view of all cases brought before them, the decision of such a Comm ittee would carry very little weight with it, and there would be great difficulty in passinw a declaratory Act founded on such -a decision ; but from a Committee fairly chosen from all parts of the House, and looking at the necessity for fixed decision on such questions, he thought that it would be practicable to produce such unanimity as would make it an easy matter to obtain such a declaratory Act.—( Hear.) lie bad ven tured to throw out this suggestion as entirely from himself. He ?tad consulted no one respecting it, but he was confident that if the House wanted to obtain a legitimate authority and an impartial tribunal, they would not obtain it by altering the manner in which Committees were now balloted for.—( Hear, bear.) It was not by altering the number of Members on such a Corwittee should be five or eleven. Nei ther would it be by whether the names upon such a Committee should be struck off before or after they were known. The true way would be to make the law o clear and defined as that the duties of a Committee should be confined to the receiving and sifting of evidence, and not to trouble them with considerations of law. He did not pretend that it would be so in the present ease, but there could be no doubt that one patty would have a leaning one way, and another would put a different inter pretation on the law ; but alter the present system, and then he would declare that the mode of selecting the tribunal would be a matter of insignificance.—( Cheers.) He would riot now enter into the details of the Hon. and Learned Member's Bill ; but he thought, and in saying so he could assure him he had no party object in view, that the Hon. Member ought net to press it, until it was seen what the measure intended to be pro posed by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin was. lie thought the Hon. and Learned Member for Liskeard had began at the wrong end.—( Cheers. ) This being his view, he would take the liberty of moving that the word " now , " should be left out for the purpose of inserting the words the 12th of Febrn. ary, or the 14th. He trusted after what had taken place, that the Honourable Member would see the propriety of postponing for three months the second reading of the Bill. He would conclude by moving that the Bill should be read a second time on Monday, the I 2th of February. Mr. C. BUL L E R was always reedy to adopt that course which appeared to him to be the sense of the House, or of a great portion of it; but he thought the Noble Lord had shown no ground whatever to induce the House to read the Bill a second time now, rather than onFebruary (Cheers,) If he had, he should have at once acceded to his re q• uest The Noble Lord hal put his amendment o n t h e ground that leave had been given to the Right Hon Mem ber for Dublin, to bring in a Bill relative to the same mat ter. If the Noble Lord would give him any gnarantee that the Hon. Member for .Dublin had an y ser i ous i ntent i on of proceeding with the Bill, which h e ( Mr. Buller) did not b e . lieve any man could have—( Laughter) —if the Noble Lard would assure him, from l.is knowledge of the and Learned Member for Dublin, that the. lion. and Learned Member had got his Bill rtiadx to p,:mit, or that he had written cue gin 1e word of it-( Renewed laught er )—h e would tako the No le lord ' s g4l4llllAec fur. the /ionourablo and Learned Member for Dtiolin, and allow the two Bills to proceed together ; only he must beg leave to call on the Noble Lord, in justice to the House and himself, to let them know a little more of the intentions of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. If any body believed that the Bill of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin was so far ready that they would be able to discuss them together—if any body on either side of the House would give a guarantee that the House would think that Bill worth a serious discussion —he would be ready to have the two Bills discussed together; hut he thought it was hardly fair dealing to ask him to put off a Bill which he had printed, and with the sanction of a Committee of the Rouse, for the purpose of waiting till the Hon. and Learned Member should have leisure or inclination to draw a Bill which was not only untreated, but which he believed was unconceived and unconeeirable. —( Great laughter.) T'oe Noble Lord had also menti-oned another objection whi'u he (Mr. Buller) thous ht was an objection to the Bill. altogether, namely— that the ssreat evil was not the ti:ourad, but the law which that - tribunal had to adrainister. He differed from the Noble Loot]. On another point. Of course all gentlemen had certain prejudlees in favour of their own character, "and the Noole Lord had rather 'setter ground to stand upon than himself, and was most likely to find favour with his au dience,when he said that members of Committees would decide in a very just way if they only had a good law to decide upon, than he ( Mr. Buller) was when he said he believed the defect was in the composition of the tribunal. He did not say that the Commons were composed of men who were worse than that class of their countrymen from whom Jurors were selected ; but what he said was from the mode in which they were selected they could not do justice.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He ( Mr. B.) did not know why it was, but some wondrous chan,ge had come over Hon. Members' self estimation. When last he detailed the evils of the present system to the House, if there were one point upon which he met a mere general assent than another, it was the dishonesty and incompetence of the present tribunal..—( Hear, hear.) And he must say that whatever change his opinion had under gone upon other matters, he had found no reason to alter his opinion upon this point.—( Cheers.) It was all very well to say " We are an impartial tribunal—we administer justice fairly ;" that was not the opinion which was entertained of them out of doors. The parties who came before them had not that confidence in their honour ; on the contrary, all the parties agreed in saying that a Committee of the House of Commons was the last tribunal from which a man could expect justice. He had just looked to the manner in which the papers had been discussing that question, and he had found one o: two things which afforded a very remarkable, though, incidental confirmation as to the dishonesty of this tribunal. There was an article quoted from the Dublin papers encouittein,g the subscription in support of petitions against Irish Members, and the reason used was this : " If the petition fund produce no other good effect it will bring so many petitions against so many persons upon one side of the House ;" and then they gave a list of persons who were to be petitioned egainst. They said, " the effect of this will be not to do justice, but to bring down the House to an equality upon there quca tions." (Laughter. )—That is to imevent so many Members serving on election petitions, and to gain a majority for the other side. The Ministerial Papers state the Ministerial majority as so much (I doet wish to enter upon this, which is rather a dubious point)—( Laughter) —say twenty-five : now if there are eighteen Irish Members petitioned against, this with the officials connected with the Government who cannot sit on elections petitions, will give a majority to the Conservative &ale of the !louse—( Laughter)—and then.thcre was a great deal of preaching about the virtue, and the piety, and the justice of the Conservatives—(continued laughter)— showing it to be the duty of every friend of. the Constitution to come forward and aid this fund, the object of which is to enable the Cens.rvatives to gain a majority in election Committees —( Laughter. ) I must admit that the papers on our side are quite as bad.—( Laughter.) There was one very curious instance the other day iu a Ministerial paper (I won't mention the natee. ) Mr. Martin, of Galway, Lad paired with Mr. Cooper, of Sligo, and the Ministerial paper began an invective against the gentlemen of their own side, because they said, ."I'hough pairs are very gool things upon political cuestions, it is not so upon election petitions." They said, Mr. Cooper is, for some reason (subset.; hing to the election fund) disqualified (but that is all nonsense) from serving upon these Committees ; therefore, Mr. Martin has not got his pair.—( Laughte.r.) Such was the idea the public had of both sides of the House. He had no more reason than any other Member of that House to attempt to betray the country of which he wai t a native —thc House of which he was a member, or the class of gentlemen to which he belonged, but he must say that there never was a body of persons intrusted with the Go vernment of a country that ever subtniated so patiently to such grave inputations upon their honour. He must affirm that the opinions of the country upon this point were different from those of the Noble Lard ( Stanley), and that Whigs, Tories and Radicals believed that the Members of that !louse, upon judicial questions involving the interests of the party with whom they were connected were neither bound by honour nor oaths,—(Cries of hear, hear, and No, no, from the Opposition side of the House.) He would ask the Right Hon. Member for Montgomeryshire •( Mr. Wynn) or any other honourable Member, whether they ever heard any other opinion expressed out of doors of this House, and it was their duty to get rid of this imputation as speedily as possible.—(Cries of " Hear.") He had not credited that imputation to it fullest extent—his Bill did not make the House incapable of administeting justice, but he had proposed that the number of Members upon election Committees should be as small as possible, and thus the re ssonsibility be limited. As to appointing a permanent chairman, that was am:Ater of detail. He thought the great cell of those Committees was the want of knowledge of the law, aid of practice in the adMinistration of the law ; and that by their ignorance of legal principles members were insensibly led by party considerations. He was not disposed to delegate the consideration of these questions to a totally different tribunal. He did not believe that the evil was so much in the tribunal as in the cases themselves. Most men felt strongly upon psiLical questions ; and he did not think a special cr a common jury would be more likely than a Committ ee o f th at H ouse . . to administer election laws impartially.—( Hear, hear. ) But he thought that a reduction of the number of Members upon Committees was a very important point, as it increased their responsibility, and upon this point he begged to have the support of the Right lion. Member for Tamworth, who had repeatedly on former occasions expressed himself in favour of this principle. Another suggestion made by the lion. Mem ber for Lancaster was the substitution of challenging for striking. This might be thought a slight alteration, but it would have this c fleet, that instead of persons being permitted to pick and choose the five Members most favourable to their own side, they would be compelled to make their challenge when the name tires first read, and before they knew what names were to follow ; and he thought the ultimate result of this would be to prevent the Committees from becoming, as they now too frequently were, party tribunals.--( Hear, hear.) The fourth improvement he proposed was the giving publicity to the proceedings of the Committee.—(Cheers.) He pro posed that the votes of Members given upon every resolution should not only be put upon record, but should be read by the Chairman immediately upon the admission of the public, as he thought the adoption of that course would ensure all that was required.--( Cheers.) Another considerable altera tion was as to the law of costs. Now, with respect to that, he should propose to give a power to the assessors to regulate the law of costs, until some regular rule was adopted. The last alteration was one which he was happy to say the Noble Lord opposite bad given his highest sanction to. It was in fact the most important alteration of the whole, namely, the establishment of the Court of Appeal from the decision of the assessors. He would wish to make that the highest tribunal, and for that purpose lie should propose that three arsesors should sit to hear appeals from the revising Barrister in the same eay as the Court of Queen's . Bench sat to hear appeals from the decisions of the Magistrates. He would propose that no person should have a double appeal, so that after the Court of appeal had decided the case they could not refer to the House of Commons. He hoped the House would excuse the length to which he had addressed them, his excuse being, that he had no previous opportunity of explaining tho details of what, he must confess, was a somewhat complicated measure. —(llcar, hear.) He knew his plan was objected to by many who said that it did not go far enough, that it was incomplete, that it did not remove the whole evil. He admitted that such might be the case. He was aware that there were a great many evils in the present sys tem which his Bill did not remove ; but it did not, at all events, agravate any of them ; so far as it went it proceeded in the right direction.—(Hear, hear.) He Legged the House would bear in mind that he proposed this plan rather as the machinery for effectiner future reforms than as a reform complet e i n itself.—(Elear,.hear.) He would say, let no Honourable Member obstruct the speedy passing of the Bill ; it was not a party measure; it was a measure, the ne cessity of which the House ought to feel, if it were only in vin. dication of its own character.—( Cheers.) Mr. C. W. WYNN said, in his judgment they ought not to proceed with one of these Bills without having the other before them in such a state as to be able to institute a com parison between the two.*—(Hear, hear.) He was not pre. pared to say how far he could give his sanction to either of the plans . but he thought that the Hon. and Learned Mem her for Dublin hating obtained leave to introduce his Bill, till it was introduced, and he had had an opportunity of ex plaining its nature, it would not be just towards him, neither would it be consistent with the usual ch aracter of their pro. ceedings, for the House to come to a decision either for the adoption or rejection of either of the measures. On that r o to i .v theirbupor tions ground, independently o f an y op i n i on t h at h e might " form of the Bills themselves, ho shou u ld as de r e e id a e d uedy.l yob ject proceeding to the second rea di ng o f t h e Honourable and Learned o f the Gentleman's which ineasur il e e . There . rteoce concur; it appeared to him that they were beginning ht the wrong end. Their fir s t o bj ect oug h t to be to remove the ambi. guitics of the old la w of election._.( near.) There was one remark made by th e H on. and Learned Gentleman f rom which he alto get h er dissented, H i e decidedly differed from him when he Said that such was the opinion of the country of the preilietacy characterising the conduct of Hon. Members on F.,lection Committees that it was believed they were bound neither b the dictates of h onour , nor the obligation of their oaths, He declared on his honour that he believed any such . ltilputation to be most unfounded, and that it was not true that such an opinion prevailed. Sonic of the Committees had come to different decisions, it must be admitted ; but it would be the case that intelligent men would entertain 0 to variance with each other on points of law. For ex wad, the case of the opening of the Irish registeati . 14. 1 , his opinion on that subleet, but he thought that the ve r t fairly entertain an opinion on it different from his was a question which, of all others, he thought n;t equirect‘p! ' to be put to rest by a declaratory Act.—( Hear, a heae;r7 He did not think the present tribunal too large. Alelletr4l,44c._ could not allow the judge of a court of common lr/C, . 1 , 64r0: "tv ‘..4 ~~v \ \ \,+f