The Sun. — London, England, 1812-01-28 00:00:00

• Principle of the 1310 from it:.Wa§ ti• tended to make prov'iion for his Alaje4 in hiS present calamitous situation. There were items in the accounts Upon the table which might perhaps re nder the grant of the 70,0001. unnecessary. He Should not enter inta those items specifically him bnt he hoped tTie House would not go into a C ommittee without appointing a Committee above stairs for the purpose of investigAting them. On Thesubject of extraordinary disbuisements, he dxcit Vrticularly on those which came under the head of D iplomacy, in which there was an excess since the year 1804 of . 05 ,0001. He alluded also to the mis ;inn of the Miirquis W e ll e sley to Sp a in, f o r w hi c h here was a grant o f 16,0001. H e dtd not say that these grams were wring, but he wished to know k , .." 11 1 they were not. and on that account he was fliiious for the appointment of a Committee. The greund on whi c h he opposed the S l .eaker's leaving he Chair, was coupled with this invention. The papers on Olt table did not atrot d sufficient mate lials for judging, but if they were to add a single shi lling to the burdeps of the people, they should examine the details which constituted the fouuda- lion of the ehi:ns. He was glad ihai they were met to settle, hr hoped definitively, anmarrance meat on tho.e and expre.sed his appro bation of that clause in the Bill, which provided, t hat whenever the Mi,iiver watt obliged to increase th e Civil List, he should come to Pari3ment. Mr. WHITER EAD said, that Sir Sidney Smith m'as a person of who ' e merits there could be 110 doubt. That the pubic were indebted to him be yond all price, " equally indisputable ; but there was another debt which we owed to thit hero, whose name requited no epithet—a debt which should have been granted with aerlaelation, and even exceeded by the vote of that House; but even to bent with all his meths, he could not agree 'hat any g,lnt should be ma !e u ithout explanation ; nay, ex- Planation was due to Si, Siliiey Smith !Inns. It ; it was due to th e ni g ht Hen. Gent. who sat next to t he Clemeeller ot the VAchequet (Mr. Arbil , hnot), for wilotn he e;.tet - tatived the higlp•st rest e , r ; it was al" , due to SFr A Paget, to Lord Wellesley, and to the- Public, to state, why those arrears had not b een raid long ago. It was due to Lord Wellte— leY, who had been a l -pointed on an embassy to • S Pain, remained so long after in this country, unde r „irc uns% t ate C s of political suspicion. Ail the 'Gentlem en who hed spoken wet e Gn w illieg tai oppose th e S.ataker's leaving the Chair, for the purpose of r ejecting the Bill, as ii wrist ueon the principle of Providing for•the care of his Majesty's person and - 'Pity in his present afflicted state; hot he denied that that was th- principle of the Bill—it was the principle of the 88, as lie understood it, vati that of creating a separate and secret source of totluence, which might or might not be used, as it m at;litor might not have been used under he I" c>- IttiCied Regency. His Right Honourable Friend ( Mr. Tierney) had placed this ia its tight point of view. If the two Courts agreed, the Influence of - the Crown would be increased, a nd it they did not agree, the business of the Cos - mime:l would be impeded. Did they not know that the Regent regretted his being placed 1h such a s itu a ti on by Prrliament, as prevented hint from manifesting those feelings of duty amid tender ness Which he was so well disposed to exercise ? "irould not any son have been displeased at the same treatment ? But where vas the necessity for all this machinery ? The restrictions would soon fall off of themselves, and therefore why not give him the Civil Lis;) Why rot furnish him with l u nd.4, not only to sapply his nrjesty, but to relieve hi mself from the degrade,) si 3 O Ilion in whit!) debt l ' h ust place a Monarch It was know() that debts were due by the Prlnce of Wales, and due for a long ti tne; it was known that a sum of money was set *side for the purpose of paying them, and people J ere i _ given to understand that before the year 1811 A li ney would h a ve been liquidated ; but now, so far 'tont his Royal Highness being abe to do so, they W ere called upon in this year, 1812, to give an ad ditional annuity for an unleened time, in order to Meet debts, which, hoWever large in their amount, must in their nature be limited ; but could t hey, the Uouse of Commons, take upon themselves to say, that he owed such debts, without a message to that effect ?. It was not the fashi in or Ministers to advise hem to make any communications,—and the con se▪ quence was, that they were called upon t o vote i lfferent sums which were said to' be necessary, but not prove] to be so. In such a situation ought they to • he satisfied, or ought the Prince of Wales Hid tt been the custom, or was it the true sense, spirit, ' a nd principle, of the House of Commons, to grant 70,0001. for ever for such a purpose ? A sqm which 'bight be used in Parliament for the Crown or "lost it, and whose tendency must be to endanger th e Constitution. But persons were to be appoint ed to superintend the private property of his Ma- Jesty, and they were to take an oath of se- T i _eeY as to the application of that properly. t hey might explain to the Queen, who was th eir mistress, or to the Prince, who was not their m aster, but to th e House of Commons, who ought t 0 be made acquainted with the fa a, they were u pon oath not to explain. Suppose that the fund l i "r a a, to be laid out in purchasing boroughs or seats et rar - liament, those, in a narrow point of view, as ban! been stated, might be considered as pro tliing for die digniiy of the Crown ; but were 'ey not really destruaive -of the true interests 0f the country ) On the subject of money there was an assertion in the Bill, in support of which there W as uo record on Cie Journals of that House; it teas elated that the Prince of Wales Was ready to up 50,0001. a-year out of his Exchequer An allitY, but he would say that there ought to be an „, '"od to i t a lt o gether. This was an assumption upon W hich h e did no t t hi n k t h e y c ou ld p roc e e d. H a d a Message come down upon that subjea, had a nY thing been said which coulslappear on theJour ha's of the House respecting it ? all these points desired evplanatioe before he could vote for the i'Peaker's leaving the Chair. He had not the ?bed for tune to hea r .th e sp e e c h of th e Right Hon. Glut. (the haneellor of the Exchequer) on a former night, but I ti had heard it detailed by others, and was sure th at it contained no grounds for going into a Clam- Itlittee on the Bill. Perhaps the cases of Sir Sid tteY Smith and Lord Wellesley might admit of satis iattory explanation ; but no explanation was given Yet.-- , There were Many names not contained to the papers before the House. He thought he ~..,t n ight. ask why th e predecessor of the Right Hon. `'etatitman onnosite. in his mission to Constan . . _ tinop!e, *at 'not incl4.lded ? On ttias'e griStin6 he wished that the luesiion "should Be pbStpOned all eveuis, until sufficient information was laid before them. The Bill itself was of such a prinCiple, that he should be inclined to leSiSt it from that circum stance alone, even if others did not combine to strengthen his objections. The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER began, by observing that the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, had complained of his having - abstained trout ()tiering to the House any remarks or expla naiions on the subject before them. He could as sure the Honourable Gentleman and the House, that no indisposition of that nature existed in his Mind. He was anxious to give as satistactory an explanation as possible, of the • various topics comprqed iu the Bill ; and he had withheld that ex planation until the present moment, in order to give himself an opportunity of collecting the various object ions which different Honourable Gentlemen entertained towards the measute.-- Had he risen immediately after the Right Hon. Ge n who had opened the debate he should ha►e been precluded from hearing the observations of the several Hon. Gentlemen who followed. Ai the same time, while he frankly declared that he had not the slightest disinclination to explain that which requir ed explanatiwo, he trusted that the Hon. Gentle man who had jest sat down, would not succeed in convinciflg the Flouse, that, because he himself had fallen into a great miiconeeption on the subjeM, that thetelote hit miscorception and the miscooceptions of others, not only called on hitn (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to tender to the House an explana tion of the point so conceived, bot also -called on the House to go into an inquiry on the subject. He rather thought, indeed, th..it the whisper of the Ho nourable Genthman's Friend while the Honourable Gentleman was in the midst of is misconception, and which convinced him of his error, %could suf. ficiently silos him ihdt on that point at le:ist, these was no necessity for any such inquiry as would im . . . pede the progress of the Bill. He felt happy that he hid waited for the speech of the, Hon. Gentle man who had just sat down, for until the delivery of that speech, he was at a loss to know, from what he had before heard, how to address his arguments. He was uncertain whether the observations of the pre- ceding speakers were in opposition to the principle of - the Bill or nut. The question before the House was, whether or not the objections to the Bill were of suet) a description, tha t it was their duty not to proceed with it wit boet that detailed inquiry which 1 , a.1 been so strongly recommended. The Honourable Gentleman had pointed out several i ems in the papers, into which he wished that some inquiry might be made, betore he coat acknowledge - the necessity of agreeing to the grants in the Bill. If, on a view of the ex• pences of the Household, and of the charges like lv to be brought upon it, it would satisfadoray appear that no more was asked for than what was indi•pettsable, no inquiry could then be deemed ne cessary; hut should any jealousy exist in the House with respect to any particular points, it would then be: ome a diffeient question, namely, whether that inquity ought not rather to take place hereafter, than interrupt the important business in hand. Al though, on a general view of the Civil List, it might appear completely satistectoty, that no airater sum was required than that whi,l) was sufficient to de fray the expences of the Household, there might be some points requiring, subsequent detailed in formation. Her would call in aid of his argument an observation made by the Honourable Gentle man himself, oho entertained such a distrust of all estimates of the Civil Last that he apprehend ed his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, by tak ing it at 5u,000 pounds less than that which his Royal Father had received, would take it in a state (as he himself conceived), insufficient to meet the charges to which it would be liable. This tni,;ht he a very reasonable apprehension, but if so, there could be no reason in the apprehension that the grants propos• d in the Bill were too extensive, and demand ed a previous inquiry. As to the observations on the expences in the Lord Steward's department ; although those expellees had unquestionably in creased considerably at the period alluded to, it was almost certain, that in the estimate, the ex isting expenditure of the year in which it was taken, had been only partially considered. Mach had also been said of the grants to Foreign Ministers. The Right Hon. Gentleman who opened the debate bad said; generally, that a great numb r of those sums ought to be explained, but had not stated any particular lieu). The Honourable Gentleman, how ever, who had last spoken, had particularised seve ral sums, which appeared to him objedionab:e en the face of them, and required explana . ion. The first thing which seemed to strike the. Honourable Gentleman wiih surprize on this suhjeel was, that when the number of missions at dill'erent Courts was lessened, the expences should be increased. The House would observe, however, that there was no in crease in the salaries. On the contrary, in the sala ries there was a considerable diminunort. But the Honourable Gentleman and the House ought to know (and in saying this he went a great way towards giv ing the explanation required), that in the state in which things were on the Continent, it would not Le wise in many cases to sand missions on an established salary. The duration of those missions was not likely to be long. In preference, theretbre, it was advis able to send special missions ; but the expences of these missions were defrayed Ma very different man ner from the others. The Honourable Gentleman declared, that an explanation on this subject was due to Marquis Wellesley, who, by a misconception, he stated, had received the expences described in the papers over and above his salery. It was no such thing. The Noble Lord had not received a tat thing of his salary on his Mission to Cadiz; He had not received a farthing as a remuneration for his services. But the Honourable Gentleman charac terised the expences at large, and seemed to think they were dispropoi dotted to the Jetta,' h of the ser vice by which they had been incurred. Now it was very evident that the expences of a person going to any place in the cbaraater of an Ambassador for a short time, must be much greater in proportion than the expellees of any person going to any place in the charatter of an Ambassador for a long period. The Hon. Gent. also declared, that a debt d' explanation was due to Sir Sidney Smith. The House had al ready heard an explanation on that subject, and am ply sufficient. They had heard that the money whieit he had received was in return fur expences incurred ,r rat, .I.oa " cal 1 the Honourable dentiernan, the CoUntr'dtiglit sobnei Id diathaige this Obligation." - hut let it be reetalle&ed at what a distance these services weft perfdrined--in Egypt and the coast of Syria ; what a Were exe isted to produce vouchers of the exPen4te hoW frequently Sir Sidney Smith was absent from the country, and consequently interrupted in 4.he arrange ment of the accounts; how - anxious he riaturally.was• that there should be every possible degree of exaoli— rude on thd Stibjeet ; and it would not appear sur prising that some delay had taken place. If, how ever, more explanation was thought necessary, he had no objeCtion to the pro'cluEtion of the detatlslroin' the different offices; but he was confident it would not be found in thosedetailathavany sum hed been given to Sir Sidney Smith .as a remuneration for his services : all that hadbeen given.was merely a remu neration for his expenditure . . Let the Hon. Gent k man consi er the nature . of Sir Sidney Smith's ser vices, the character of the people with whom he had to deal, and the effeetual way in - which he discharged the trust reposed in him,and he did not think that he himself would deem the sum stated to be greater than, under all the circumstances of the case, it was proper to expend. (HeOr, ,hearjrom Mr. liiiiittread..) The Hon. Gent. cheered this observation, and yet it tended completely to confute his argument. Let the Hon. Gent. case either his objection or his ap plause. The two were incompatible. If, on sheav ing that 70001. was paid to Sir "Sidney Smith for his exeaace- when employ ed, half Mei military and half in a automatic character, in Egypt' and Syria, the Holt. Gan% intimated that he did not think it an ex travagant sum : on what princ i ple could he say that there was dt e to Sir Sidney Smi . h's honour and charaaer any explanation, but simply a statement on what ground the expences were incurred ? Par liament being eelp'oyed, under the recommondwian of the speech from the throne, in making a provision for his Majesty's Household, the Hon. Gentleman suddenly interrupts them in the middle of the bu smess.—" Oh, oh!" says he, " here is an item of 70001. to Sir Sidney Smith; I do not think the sum excessive; .1 do not want any explanation for our own satisfadion ; but for the purpose of clearing the ho nour and character of Sir Sidney Smith pray sus pend all your proceedings, and arrest the progress of the Bid at present under the consideration of the House." The observations of the Honourable Gf.thOettlall on the expences to Foreign Ministers were all general, except those which related to Sir Sidney Smith; the Marquis Wellesley, Mr. Arbuth not, and Sir A. Paget. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) trusted, that whatever might be due to any other party, he had not left the character of Sir Sidney Smith exposed to any cloud or stain ; and therefore the tine figure which the Honourable Genes tleman so eloquently introduced, of the debt of ex planation due to Sir Sidney Smith on this occasion, might serve to wind up a magnificent period in the Honourable G,atleman's speech, but had no relation whatev . er to the subject befpre the House. The same remark was equally applica ble to what the Hon. Gentleman had said of his Right Hon. Friend, near him (Mt. Arbuthnot). The sum paid to his flight Hon. Friend was distiettly and simply a return for the expenses and losses which he had incurred during the mission on which he had been seni. Before any j..elotisy was allowed to tiOst on these subjeas, at least justice ought to he done to those who were conieeted' with them, Did the Hon. Gentleman cooceive.. it possible that the alf,irs of a great nation such as England could be (la the Hon. Gentleman's opinion) successfully car ried on such miss'ons as he had - described, if the in dividuals emp!oyed in those-missions lotted them selves aaually ruined in the discharge of the important , trust reposed in them ? Let the House consider the manner which Mr. Arbuth not's mission terminated : he was obliged to make a precipitate retreat. The hostility of the Court at which he was a resident ren2er ed it nee-ssary for him so do , o. He was compelled to leave every thing behind him. Not a single ar ticle of the charge was there that had not undergone the soiciest scrutiny by the Tteasury, and all that really was paid oter to Mr. Arbethnot was merely a fair return for the lo•ses which he had inevitably sustained. When this occurrence took place, he and his Right Honouroble Friend were perfeel strangers to each other. Mr. Arbuthnot was not then Secretary to the Treasury, so that it could not be suTeded that any undue influence existed (a vowable to his Right Honourable Friend, but unjust to the public. These observations would serve as an answer to all remarks on missions abrupily terminated. It was but just that the individuals who suffered, should suecessfully apply to the country lotredress. It, however, any further scru tiny nu the subject were thought necessary, let it be entered into, but let not the progres, of the Bill be fore the House be impeded by a circumstance so little connected with it.—He came now to the con sideration of what had been said respecting the Commissioners whom it was proposed to appoint, for the purpose of managing his Majesty's private property. On this subject lie certainly had on a recent occasion replied across the lab!e to a question put to him, by a Right lion. Gentleman that it Was IiIS titer) ton to propose sdaries to these Cominksioners, to be paid out of the proceeds of the property itself. Ile had since however reason to believe that' he should be able to find persons who would willingly tale upon themaelves that charge, without receiving any salary ; and he should therefore omit in the R,ll all mender) of salary what ever. The Right Hon. • Gestoleman professed to feel great difficulty in legi,Liting at all tim,-s on the King's private propert y--so should he (the Chan • cellor of the Exchequer). But unqu:slionably, as his private property, his Majesty had a right to•ex peel that it should riot be lost to him. Tee Right Hon. Gentleman, after the profession of difficulty in legislating on the subject, proceeded to the conclusion, that the King's private property was a thing which might be taken from his Ma jesty withuiit any ceremony. He did nor think that many of those who in the fist instance were of opinion that it was an extremely•delicate thing to • legislate respeding the King's private' prop2rty, would imniedia ely afterwards manifest a dispOsnion, to jump at lt, and take it away altogether. If at the end of the year the expense should exceed the estimate by ten thousand pounds, that eXe_Sct should be, communicated. Undoubtedly • this provision would not in s ure the non-occurrence of any excess; but it would insure this—that the error, if any should take place, should be known and declared in the time of the Minister under whom it had rianurred i And that Palliatbent siioafd have the op. portunity, in his presence; of considesing how tar it was or was not jtstffiable. Another objecilon tuaii to the rtica§ureby the Right Honourable Gentle man; related to the memner iti which the futvls granted to his 'loyal Highnest the Prince Rent were left at his disposal. In the first piztre, be could not agree. with the Right Honourable Gen• %team, that t 7 arliameut. were making final arrange, mews as (or the Prince's coming to the Throne. They were .only making arranger en , s for the bet ter management of the househokl during his Ma= jesty's indisposition. Jr win no final arrange- ment, as for the Prince's corning to the 'Throne; It would not be dealing fairly with the a)use to say there was complete and utter despair of the‘King't resuming the itoyal'Authority. Nothing existed 10 justify so dark and gloomy a view bt the subject: If, therefore, Parliament kept in mind the of his Majesty's recovery, they must also keep in mind the possibility of the 11,sent's 'return i()tne situation of Prince of \Vales. How; there;'Ore., would they be justified, under such circurn,tances, in breaking down his Exchequer re‘eotte ? With respe& to another part ot the subject COnnech..d with his Royal Highness,, on this as well as on all other questions, whenever there was an alternative, the side which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) took was always prouounzed to be erroneous by ihe Right Honourable. and Honourable Gentlemen opposite. They had so pronounced his proposhion iu the present instance. Had he come doWta to Parliament with that which they now affected to prefer, he had himself not the stitalle,t doubt they would have been equally alert in their objedions, and would have referred to what passed on a former occasion. He should in that case have been asked by -them, whether it w:-.s fair again to bring a mat ter before Pat liament, which had already been de• cided upon, and upon which it had given warning to future creditors of His Royal Highness, that they would enjoy no legal obligation for the paymeht of their demands. This, he was persuaded, had he proposed the measure now recommended by the Right Honourable Gentleman, and Honourable Gentleman opposite, .would have been the ground . which they would have taken; unles, indeed, he . had experienced a singular good fortune, of whish no precedent existed. He was persuaded, how ever, and lie trusted that the House would think with him, that the mode proposed by the Bill, was the mode most consistent with their duty, both to his Royal H:gliness, and . to the country, it had been asked, it it was intended to constitute two privy purses ? Certainly, it was intended to give his Royal Highness the Prince Regent a privy purse. To this the Right Honourable Gentleman had no objection.: Then,- as to the charges incurred during the present reign, it surely would not be right to incumber the Regent With them, nor with the ex pences of the medical men., which the unhappy state of his Majesty rendered it necessary should be about his person. All these charges would come with propriety out of the 60,000 i. allotted to his Majesty for such purposes. Adverting to e hat had been said by the Right Honourable Gentleman re, spetiing the Princesses, he observed; that he had been very much misunderstood on that subject...se, . The Right Honoarable Gentleman bad asserted that he (the Chancellor of the Exelirquer) bad said, that when the Princesses were in hiss n they might lite with the Prince, and that when they Avert: in the country they might live with the Queen: He had said no such thing. When asked it any arrange ments had been made on the subjeet, he had replred that he had received no commands to make any (iis. tine statement upon it to the House ; but tout it did appear to him a thing desirable, tied that it . would appear to Parliament desirable to make some arrangement for that purpose. Deprived of that aid which their Royal Highnesses had been accustomea to receive from their Fa!her, he did conceive that their situation might afford a proper subjeti for the dehbershon of Parliament, to consider whether any, or what. assistance should be furnished them. There was one point of the new arrangement, however, on which both the Right Honourable Gentleman, and the Honourable Gentleman had thought fit to lay great stress. It was that part of the eS'ablish ment which was reserved to attend on his Majesty's person, and which was to be under the controol of her Majesty. There Were various objetitioes to this part of the proposition. The first was to the ext e nt of the establishment so reserved. • It might be re• collet-led, that on a former occasion he had stated it to be his opinion, that the House would not do well if they provided in this respect, as if his Majesty must remain in the unhappy state in which he %vat at present placed ; and that they ought to consider the possibil.ty of his regaining complete conscious ness, even should he never be enabled to resume the reins of Government. But he was accused of not having put questions on this subjeEt to The Physi cians. There was no reason for putting them.s-, They had distinctly stated that there were intervals in which he was capable of enjoying the society of his family. (" Not since July," ji om the Opposi tion Benches.)—That was true ; but there was no reason to conclude that the thing was impossible; and. when cases of a similar description were consi dered, it appeared that it was not less prob Joie since that period that his Majesty should recover the con sciousness to which he alluded, than that betC:rd that period he should have recovered the power of beire, able to exercise the Royal Authority. 11, th,refore, the House at all took this circa nsaance into consie deration, they must determine that something like the dignity of a King should surround his Majesty, and surely that which was proposed Was not too moth -.for such aperpose. Btet the principal objedioo, it seemed,. lay to this establishment being paced under the controul of the Queen. The Honourable Gentleman opposite affected to perceive in that cir cumstance symptoms of a continuance of that most determined and settled distrust of his Royal I-righ• ness the Prince Regent 3 which, according to him, had pervaded the whole of the propositions which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had thought psopoir, on a former occasion, to submit to the adoption of Parliament. Now; really, if the Gen• tlemen opposite could find out any motive by which the most despicable and most foolish of men could possibly be induced, under the present circurn.• stances, to evince a deep and Marked disresped to wards, and distrust of, his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, he left them to enjoy their discovery: For his part, he was not conscious of any feeling in his own Mind- so absurd. But- let the House see what those who were so (tenderly anxious zbout the Ras