The Sun. — London, England, 1812-07-11 00:00:00

. , Per Tree : a's 'man imtrnver.ne.vatr ree,eiVed tnore 1 48• 10c1. . icadilig tbeiti a pplied to i n conseqncriee of the w lo stare of the f unds to advanc . re hut ha at first hung aloof; at length; with Pal:eh intreaty ,anfl promise of se-• rarity for4 , ayine!!t-, lre did actually advance I9s rjetaiuing I s . f or discount. It was stated_ in "nee, and it was a statement most Satisfactory, that tI4. measure lately adopted by his Majesty's (3'ol•4l•nrhent, namely, the Revocation of the ° l'ders in . Connell, wciuld set•the I%lanufactu;•ers t° Work, and cos4.qpiently the evil - would shortly subside. The original' cause of the evil Was attended by anothetthe. high price of provisions. Was it very evtraordinary then, that When a .large patulation were reduced to !eat distresS by the want of work, and were Pinched by , ho.niter, that they should not have re , t - rtined the same iieaccable demeanour which they tve re.accustonied to observe in the days of pros i)erity ? Th e return of tranquility would mainlyuepend on a vood harvest and the employ of t e People in, the'manr,faetories. Those two objects Were likely to be realised; if so, there was suffi cient evidet ee that the present law§ would be a•tlequat z for :11.1 the TiurpOses of good order in a t'ietv.. The iron Gentleman then advised, as chief means of ensuring this desirable view of th ings', that his :Majesty's Government 'should !ndeavour to obtain for the country the blessings 'f l peace.: Peace would put an end to the inter grievantes, and with respect to the external llPPearance of things, there never was, -in his' °Pinion, a more favourable opportunity at least t° make the attempt. He also recommended an .._xellange of prisoners : the .detention of prisoners "s, he a great sore, which might be re tcied. He Concluded with expressing his dissent the pron .- sect measures. lii WiLlinA)ricE a.siured the Han. Gentle that he WIS not more sincerely a friend to 1 36 .ce than hiMself. Happy Should - he be if he no ught that peace would remove those sovereign e vils which life - le the subject of consideration this If the best way to secure the blessings of ,I ) 'ace, or at least totreat for it, was by continuing `' - iclse evils, he, for one, could be content to bear with them: Bat on'the other hand, believing•as le did that sufferinre-such evils to continue with ' ° at a pronerrestraint, was not the‘best way, he ' v as for : endeavouring to interpose a bar to the -4°'4lrinance, and thereby securing thehonour and 'ae'er of the country. It was impossible for t look without pain, connected as he was l ' - ° a part 'of the country where the evils exist, c't the necessity of deviating floni the ordinary ;3 1 t'se , :f law. The Noble Lord had truly stated; ch 2 measures now proposed did not go beyond (I '`e necessity of the case, nor did they outrun the Is P 3 si•ion of the country. He would go the 1 t t : n gth of sayin g , .that be 4hould - not have disliked 1 : e N'opositi ons , if th ey em b race d gre at er p o w ers je thOse asked by the Noble Lord. His Ma -iUinisters. had, however, with those feel. 8 ' of the necessity of extraordinary powers, to that House for the adoption of measures, t ,, 4°i ° ll Sly an a cautiously drawn up to meet the • They were actuated by a desire to afford an th g t ec ,, n tt i ml remedy, and in affording that remedy ad be en moderate i i 'their demands. The tti °h• Gentleman (31.r.Whithread) had talked of e o P i rreness- in the Magistracy. It was very easy (1 4Atiemen at a distance from scenes of dis .ger t o talk so ; not viewing those scenes of tu iflats and of riots; they could tot be capable of t 'dgl • ng. what was proper to be done. "He jests It at sears who never felt a wound." The Magistrates best enabled to judge of the proper course to - The Hon. tientleman, therefore, should thei r have rashly concluded they were defiCient in • th e duty, because the laws were not adequate to h ge maintenance of the public peace. ttor his he thought that the House meant totonfine he ir vi ew o f t h e case to the Report on. the table ; the th Hon. G en tl eman h a d no t done so. 'He hacl esen to r e fe r t o , particulars which he had ga vered els ew here. But what did the Report say the subject ? Why it was th ere in d is tin c tly f teel that the Magistrates could not rec,e,ye in rilLat.ion of these disorders upon oath, for per- Lris Were precluded from giving that information • the terr or i v hi c h.._ th e 'inisgnided' rioters held.. of v,er theta. The lion. Gentleman had talked too 4.. the Irish RelAlion tliere certainly were many in the suppr•ssion olthat.Rebelhon, 4,4leU•wei•e to he lamented on the score of but they were necessary.. He hat it from 4 yers:on on whom he could rely, who ,was pre ', '"t at those terrible scenes , an d who was i n 4iGrkshire lately, that he never was more wit°, te sh ed in his life than at the similarity of the : 1 . es then. traced before his e , ..eS, and those present had tli4gvaced Ireland. Lie supported the i:sent proposition, therefore, because he would g 9 the length of those measures which were Li l a PPily resorted to in Ireland. Was it nut Ptime to interfere, by some proper provision, kt :ell family was armed against family—parish parish—aiia county against county ?--•• e,„ 'ail was confusion and terror, was it not ne ez;ilatY, Was it not prudent, was it not politic 11 11 . i : w ise,. to s t o p such proceedings,- before they t, n ; v ed at the l ast s t age , w h en i t m i g ht b ecome 117' 4 e jative to resort to more severe measures 1— t tot . t4 regard to. the source of these evils, he should bp i euter upon that subject, but.he must state his li f °, l l, and it was an opinion founded on truth, ‘ s 7 . tile disease is of a political. nature. Ile said ki v l eina his heart 3 he . was' never more sure of thing in his life, and it was for: this rea -04 , e t n : , concurred with the. Honourable Gen t• e n in the Conimittee, for the necessity fun investigation. He wished that the evil % ta , ing to accidental and temporary circum • I kk es, and that the unhappy misguided, and de edti.i individuals had nothing more to ansWerfor. Ivan"°ubtedly there was creat pressure felt a for the c re t 0 f employment ; that circumstance had in klitiase‘d_the discontents ; but it was an undeniable „, e 'ear truth that the poular discodtents were eo'ran- hi • . •, eua in a rani,. sou • that they grew in that L and were nurturecho maturity, If the House Ith it o l l e it, he could appeal to many . Gentlemen .... Iv , ad personal acquaintance with the county t h e r 9 O knew 'that these discontents had been t)-i se Vled t and fUMented by seditiouS, wicked, and tli e ,. e votis publications, calculated to alienate, t o " ection s cif the People from the Government, 4 41 4 them mischievous to the. State and Ilk 11,0 serahle to theusseitteS. # e trusted that ,'e coua .." try,inight still be preserVed . from the Worst effects Of such publicatiOns-. hi supporting the , propo=-. :salons, he was : riot actbated by any Finciple:l of severity; he agreed with the Hon. Gentlemiin that it would be better to intercept crime,; by mild punishments. He, like the lion. Gentlenmn, wished not to hang, and hoped it would not he necessary to go to that extent of punishment.• But When the Hon'. Gentleman talked of the state of trade being the cause of the evil, di/ he not know that letters of assassination had been,writ ten by these deluded - tnen---that houses were threatened to be burnt, and the threat:actually . carried into execution ! Were such proceedings mere ordinary common things ? When men coolly contcruplated those things, when they gravely enteted into solemn engagements, under the form of religion, to perform them--to commit acts the most m „„ostrous z and the most abhorrent to ha-. man nature---was the House then to be told .to lock at the original cause, and to-believe that the war.was that cause ? He regretted that he had lived to read that such events -were received as matters, of congratulation ; they served to' skew the diseased state of some men's minds, and the necessity of sonic strong measures' of restriction, founded upon a grave deliberation of the state of things. WHITBREAD, in explanation, denied that he meant to throw any imputation on the Nagi , gistracy ; but at thesathe time, if he contemplated their conduct as erroneous, that was their affair, and not ,his own. Sir F. BURDETT would not have risen, but for the promolgation of certain principles by the lion. Gentleman (Mr. Wilberforce), to whieh. it was impossible he could consent. The Hon: Gentle e man seemed willing to go any length in the framing of new laws, if the necessity of the times should revire them. He would even subscribe to the inithtion of torture, in order to extort confession. ( No, no )—The; Hon. Gentleman did not' assent to the proposition, but, be would appeal to the House, whether the words of the Hon. Gentle man did not strike them as going that 'length ? (No, no ! .was reverberated• from one part of the House to the other.—The Hon. Baronet then proceeded to discUss the principles of the measure. He •hoped the Noble Lord was not entering on the commencement of that career of blood which was pursued in Ireland.—(No; no'.)—The lion. Baro net apologised, and that he did not wish to affix on the Noble Lord anoditith 'which he did not merit. With respect to what had taken place, if he were to judge of the state of things, from what fell from the Hon. Gentleman,' he should imagine that the flame of discontent was spreading, but the real fact was not so 5 it was allayed, ovat least was'allaying. • He then sgued against the proposition on the ground that the presept law was sufficient, as had been shewn in the conviction of several of the rioters. Adverting to what had fallen from the Member for Yorkshire on the sub ject of seditious publications, the only Way to stop the circulation was by, stopping the press. With respect to the Report, he 'considered it as a flimsy oboe containing no secret intelligence—no . thing but what was before contained the' news papers. He concurred with the Methber fur Bed ford, that the'best means of relieving the dis tresses of the country was 'lsy'an endeavonr. to obtain peace--next to that was a Reform in Par liament. He stated his intentioa before the re cess of calling the attesition. of Parliament to the subject. Mr. WILBERFORCE and Sir F. BU RDETT mutu ally explainecL Mr. CANNiNG having been Member of the Committee, and having heard from the Honour able Gentleman (Mr. Whitbread), also a Member of the Committee, that there was no necessity for going so far, and from, another Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wilberforce), something like. an intimation that the measure of the Noble Lord d d not go fir enough, he should not he acting fairly if he did not express his opinion on the measure ; that opinion was, that the measure was.as well calcu— lated to meet she precise case as any measure could cod be. If he had any doubt. upon it, that doubt would be on the side of the Member for Yorkshire, namely, that connected .with other circumstances, as. the case was, the measure per e. haps did not go far enough. On the face of the. Report, such facts were stated as left no alterna tii,e but -to enable the Magistrates, by a stronger measure, to secure ' the pissce of the country.--, From all that had transpired in evidence, he was prepared to say, that th*sevil now sought to' be remedied had its origin, not as the Member for Bedford supposed in commercial distress, but a political disease. .The impression which was left on his mind from the e idencc, was, that a,great veal of iOtrigue of that natuee had been going on, associating with the cause certain individuals, who in publications had more extensive schemes in view. In a case like this, he felt that the re port had under-stated the extent, but he thotight it better to be in error on that side than to state the extreme of the ease, especially if the Govern ment would not let the inconvenience stand in the way of further measures, if necessary. It had been said, that the Magistrates were slow in the exercise of their powers. It was true they Were in some instances. lie thought, however, the House ought to be very cautious in attributing to a gratuitous Magistracy any dereliction of •duty, when they must be so mainly interested in9secur ing civil tranquility, and in preserving the politi cal laterests of the country. The , Right lien. Gentleman then passed a warm eulogium on the liberty of the press, and the necessity for preserv ing it entire, allowing ail measures, whether in ternal or external, to be freely discussed. If that liberty is improperly used by designing men, it was easy to apply a remedy by late. With respect to the benefits to be derived from the measure, the country might expect not only the salvation of those engaged in the disturbances, but those who might, but for the measure, be drawn into a par ticipation of the crime. With respect to the army' in array, the impression on his mind was, that the drilling did mischief in a political point of vietv. On all these grounds, he should feel it his duty to approve and support the measure.' Mr. LAMBE contended, that on , the face of the information there was sufficient evidence of the existence of a system of outrage under which no person or property was safe, and which, at for the grave ethisideraiiiri ;If Pat . liament. With 'respect to the, provisions of the reoee proposed; it' Might be a matter of deli:, bereldda whether the dditini.which the power Of searching for arms must occasion; would be cone.- tel•-balanced by any advantage that the•possessimi Of such a nci*e.r would give to the Mao'strateS.H ThiS and the other provisions of the Bill Would be it subjects for future discussion ; but that some eateusion of authority was indispensable Le thought no One could deny. Lord CASTLEP.EAGH' wished td say a Pel'i in reply to some of the observations which - had' fallen from some Hon. Gentlemen hi the course of the debate. And in tea: first place he Would ob serve, on the regret expressed by his Hon. Friend (the Member for Yorkshire), that more extensive evidence had not been entered ,futo in the Com mit ate. The fact was, that the evidence of the persons whom it had been propo - ?.)ed to examine, was as completely before the Coin tritteC as if those persons had been actually examined: Undoubt edly, had Governmentthought that the result of -any parole evidence- would have . been to sties/ Parliament the necessity of granting a larger and more iiperati-ve authority than that proposed by the BE: for which he had the honour to Move ; it would have been their duty to call for the assist ance of such evidence ; hut this was not the case. He had endeavoured- to show the Committee, that by no evidence could it be estahliShed, that the existing mischiefs were as great and cemprehen si're as those which existed a few years ago; arid therefore, that it would he wise to treat the pre sent case in a more indul g ent manner than that to which he had just all-aded. ' He confes3ed he never had listened to any speech in Parliament, so unsuccessful in the endeavour, by trite and misplaced -argument and illustration, to give to the proceedings, in which the necessi t y of the proposed 'measure origia'tted character of in siarriNcanee, as that which had been uttered by the' son. Gentleinan opposite (Mr. Whitbread) - . His Hon. Friend, the - Member for Yorkshire, had sufficiently answered that par 'of the Hon. Gen tleman's speech. But if the Hon. Gentleman had been unsuccessful in attempting to slew that the circumstances were not worthy the attention of Parliament, he was still more unsuccessful in at teniling to thew that the existing power of the Magistrates was competent to the reduction of the disturbance's, even if they were as serious as they had been represented to be. When the House reflected on. all that had Occurred during the last three months, in the dhsturbed districts, he thought they would require something of the Honourable Gentleman's nerves before they could consent to dismiss the subject as unworthy their , attention, • and to allow matters to proceed unin terruptedly, not the calf made upon them by the lklAgistracyfor that additional power, which was found to. be indispensable to the resto ration or tranquility. His Hon. Friend, the Mem ber for NOrkShiee, in his remarks on that provi sion of the propcised measure, which Went to give the Magistrates the power of searching for arms, seemed to think that this power could not be ex ercised with such rapidity ,and surprise as to eifect the object desired: He admitted, that to take arms by surprize, (except indeed in some cases offensively, when they were actually in-the' hands otthe disturbers r of the public peace) could scarcely beeexpected ; yet in his painful expe- • rience in another country, he knew, that although arms had. not been -collected by .surprise, yet that in Conseqaence of the legislative measure adopted iil Ireland, not less than one hondred thousand had been withdraWn, by the military and the Ma zistrates.from the hands of the insurgents. As he was speaking of Ireland, he must be allowed to' say,. that although he trnsted the wisdom of the Legislature,. the -activity of the Magistrates, and the good sense of the people at large, would pre, vent this country from being brOught into the si tuation in which Ireland was once, yet he should very much deceive the House, and very ungener ously eoulpromise the character of those who had the superintendance of public affairs- in Ireland at the per od td which he (Lord Castlereagh) had alluded, if he did not distinctly declare, that were this country to be involved in similar. dangers, it Would be impossible for the Government and the Magistrates to conduct themselves in a' manner more creditable to their hinnanity than the Go vernment and Magistrates of Ireland-had .r:one.:— It was. extremely easy for the Hon: Gentlearan opposite, who koew nothieg, by personal -obser vahon, of the difficulties and dangers attendant on the task suppressing.disturhances in a coun try, to hold such perils 'cheat.) ; but these who had protected Ireland when she was threatened, with `civil destruction, better knew how to estimate them. The Hon. Gentleman's observations on Lord Camden had been most ungenerouS and most unjustifiable. _ The I-lon. Gentletuan might not approve of the measures of Lord Camden's Government - Those measures were inirly open to his animadversion. But every one who haew any thing of .the kind and benevolent • heart of that Nobleman must know that he would revolt from all Unnecessary exercise of severest'. An lion, Bart. also . had chosen to throw out an imputation upon the Government of Ireland under Lord Camdenrs Niceroyalty, which,- if true, ought to briehr upon that G-oVernMent the detestation cf all good men, and that was, that they had. countenanced the practice of inflicting torture for the ex traction of evidence. He' could assure the House, that there 'had been no instance. of torture ever known or authorized by. the IriSh Government. It was true, that during the disturhances in Ire land, when all- other laws had ceased to exist, there was no resource for the security of the lives and property of the - peaceable 'mid loyal in habitants, but the substitution of Martial Law. The necessity of, Martial Law on that occa sion had been sanctioned not' only by the Le gislature of Ireland, - bat subsequently by that of the United Kingdom: The Bill bywhich Martial Law was proclaimed, certainly gave to the military a discretionary power of punishment. 'lf, there fore, the Honourable Baronet meant by tor ture, the infliction (in the administration of Mar- Ttial Law) of corporallannishineut on any dual—that was, the infliction.of the same punish ment that existed in the LoCal Militia, and in tile army at large—he might be justified in the asser tion. Certainly, during the continuance of mar . tiallaW e the General Officers in Ireland . inflicted on the rebelithe same punishment for their of . fences as they would have inflicted on their own soldiers. But as to extorting evidence by tor.= tuhe, no euch act had taken place under the sanc tion of Government. He did not say that no such act had occurred. In the midst of a rebel lion, during which the whole system of society was deranged, be believed that such acts had oc curred ; but he solemnly denied that they oceur red under the sanction or with the knowledge of Governirient. The Honourable Baronet bed ad verted etri a recent trial for iibel„ in which he (LbrdC.) had been charged-with the legal murder of one Orr, iii 1797, who having been tried, and found guilty of the offence for - which he was tried, bad been executed by the order of the Lord Lieutenant, under the advice of the Judge who - tried hith. On this ground he had beeu charged with being a legal murderer. That the occurrence. alluded to did actuelly h , ppen. was the fact ; but it was also a fact, -'tat it bappe led seven months before be was in odice. s was certainly . a pretty good alibi. Bat let it .ut be supposed that he was net perfectly prepared to share all the responsibility, of Lord Catialte:'s vernjuent, and to consider it a .t e srsoaal - he err that he bad served under that IN obleraae Lnat Government. He had merely stated the circum stance which he had just narrated, to chew the facility with which such stories were iuventrd and narrated. The person tried for the libel to wh.ch he had alluded, went, previously to his rece. ing judgment, to Irehnd, for the express purpo e of obtaining affidavits of the cruelty of the Irish Go vernment, and particularly of his (Lout Castle reagh's) individual cruelty. Oa his appear , nee in Cohrt, the reading of those asEdavits was °lr. ; ejected to by the Judges. Two of then, however,‘ hadbeen previously read. The onerelated to 'A man who, it was alleged, hhd been se to Beeany Bay by an arbitrary act of his. Now it happened that he had two letters, the one frarn Lord Bantry, the other from a Captain of a Fencible Be isnent, both of whom sat on a Court Martial in the Southern District, in which this man was sentenced, under the laws of that country at that time to transposrt atioh ; a sentehee which he (Lord C.) in the due discharge of what be conceived to be his duty, had ordered to be carried into effect. The other affidavit charged him with having been pre sent at the corporal punishment - of a man, and. with having, on that occasion, uttered expresa sinus, of which he .trusted that those who knew him would believe him to be incapable. The . fact was, that not only he had not witnessed that punishment;_ but that he had never in his life, by ,any accident; witnessed such a punishment. So much for the accuracy of these affidavits.— .Such accasations proceeded from those who, when they failed in 'their plans of wicked ness, resorted to the practice of vilifying the individuals to whose e'Kertione that failure was attributable. He certainly never expected to make his peace with that class of oersols. Their hostility was the best testimony that he had per formed his duty conscientiously, and he hoeed he might say, firmly and although he hewer d pect ed to experience - their approbation, ens indeed wished to do so, knowing that it would be_ given only if he did not deserve it, he trusted that he Inc( lived long enough to convince those who knew him best," that there were no feelings of cruelty in his disposition ; but that in the con duct which he had pursued, amidst the diffi-:.ult circumstances in which the disturbances in Ire land had placed the Government of that country, he had been 'influenced. solely by a wish to protect the unoffending, and to restore general tran quility. A MEMBER, whose name we could not learn, stated that it had come within his knowledge, that the Sheriff of Tipperary had in the . market place of a considerable town, picked out an ob noxious individual, anti without trying him by any. Court-martial, had employed a drummer of the regiment to which he (the floneurahle Mem ber be'ibngect, to punish that individual more se verely than he had ever known any man punished :whO had even been tried by a Court Martial. This happened before the Rebellion. During 'the Rebellion he saw, not now and theh, but every day, men tied hp and flogged, in order to make them con'ess. He did not say that this was done by order of Government ; all that he was aware of was . the . simple fact. In many of these' cases the persons punished confessed ; in others they did not. He remembered .one instance, in which a, • man who had been first threatened was after Wards hanged, and his comrade threatened, flogged, and induced to confess. Lore CASTLEREAGH,. in explanation, observed, that what he had said was, that he did believe such acts as those 'described by the hon. Gentle man had occurred, but that he denied that they had occurred under the sanction and authority, or - with the kr.owledge of the Irish Government.— As to the High Sheriff of tl:e Coorlty of Tippem r.ary,'two Pc tit n s had been against hint for his ,conduct, on both of which he had been convicted ; and, notwithstanding a subsequent Act of Indemnity, had suffered the impsitiGn of very heavy fines. . The Eton' IVIEmzEa who had before spoken, said, atrocities simi!ar to those which' he had de scribed as having taken place in Tipperary, had, to his knowledge; occurred in Clonrnell long be fore the rebellion. Lord CASTLEREAGIT repeated his positive denial that such acts had received the auction of the Iri,h Government. Mr. TIC-HE bore testimony to the atrocities which Imd been committed in Ireland, and partif cularly in'the county of Tipper - kry,- the SneritY of which, had nevertheless received subscoiently the protection. of the /mil Goyernmcnt; awl had ob tained an act of indemnity. Anvertiog to the I:ish Att authorizing Magistrates to .seirch for ar.ts, he observed, that the one hundred thou sand arms which the Noble Lord deicribl-d, as if they had all been nhiskets, were chiefly pikes, and. most of them merely parade pikes. The Irish Act had been. productive of most him carious con sequence's. With respect to torture in Ireland. :e :certainly acquitted his Noble Friend of any personal kqowledge of such transactions ; hu they rieverthelesshad occurred, an; he instanced several wit of many-cases of their ocetilTence, , Lord CASTLEREAGIJ denied that the Bill of In ! detanity, to which the lion. Geatletaan liatl U.