The Sun. — London, England, 1837-12-16 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.-DEr,l5. The LOIID CHANCELLOR To3l7Tis;eat at Five o'Clock on the Woolsack. REDUCTION OF POSTAGE. Earl RADNOR presented a petition, signed by almost all the booksellers of London, praying that a very considerable alteration might be made in the conveyance of letters, both by the General and Twopenny Post. It had appeared for a long time to the Noble Lord that a much more cheap mode of conveying letters might be adopted. The petitioners laboured under great difficulty and hardships owing to the high rate of Edinburgh, Owing to the extravagance of postage to Edinburgh, for instance, they were under the neces sity of sending in one package by steam-boat occa sionally a thousand letters. This packet was conveyed at the expense of one shilling, and the letters were delivered equally soon to the respective persons residing there as they would have been if sent through the Post-office, although in the latter case the amount of Postage would have been more than 501. They were aware that this was a violation of the law, but they were obliged to resort to it, from the ex travagance of the postage. There was another circumstance stated in the petition, which satisfactorily shewed that a great reduction might be made in the system of postage. It ap peared that by a newspaper being sent by the Post-office, which paid nothing except the penny stamp upon the paper, four-fifths of that penny was sufficient to pay the expense of transmitting that paper, and the remaining kth was left as a profit. Whereas, for a letter that did not weigh so much, and that did not occupy so much space, one shil ling and one penny halfpenny was demanded. The petitioners expressed their perfect conviction that that if the postage was reduced, some of them would receive at least from 20,000 to 50,000 letters more in the course of the year than they now receive. There was a very general feeling roughout the country on this subject et present, in favour of a reduction, and the Noble Lord hoped their Lordships would be able to meet that prevailing wish. Lord BROUGHAM said he hoped his Noble Friend would persevere in the course which he had began—the country must derive great advantage from his taking an interest in this question. To-morrow he (Lord Brougham) would pre sent a petition from the Corporation of the City of London on a subject intimately connected with this; and he hoped his Noble Friend would then move a Committee to examine into this question,which being involved with arithmetical calculations could never otherwise be satisfactorily adjusted = ( Hear.) MUNICIPAL OFFICERS' DECLARATION BILL The Noble and Learned LORD then presented a petition from the Corporation of London—in which the peti tioners—whom his Lordship remarked, had the right of presenting their petitions to the other House of Par liament by their own officers, were oblie'd to intrust their petitions to the House of Lords (which had not admitted that privilege) to one of their Lordships. The petitioners referred to the Municipal Officers' Declaration Bill, which had lately passed the other House, and which was designed to give relief to Quakers, Moravians, and Separatists who were elected to municipal offices, by substituting a declaration which they could conscientiously make, for that which, under the 9th Geo. IV., they had hitherto been required to make, but which they could not make without violating their religious opinions. The petitioners stated a proposition which his Lordship observed could not be disputed, that it was highly unjust to require from individuals a declaration contrary to their religious scruples, in order to enable them to take any civil office. They stated that thus a double injustice was committed—nut only were these individuals pre vented from obeying the law, but they were unjustly excluded from the enjoyment of their civil rights—they tle2re fore prayed their Lordships to pass this Bill ; but at the same time to alter the declaration which had been substituted for that of the 9th Geo. IV., so as to enable all persons to avail themselves of it, whose conscientious objections prevented them from making the former declaration.—( Hear, hear.) The Bishop of — LONDON wished to know from the Noble and Learned Lo,-d, whether any alteration of the terms of the declaration would satisfy the petitioners, or remove their ob jection to its substance? Lord BROUGHAM said that the petitioners were per fectly willing to make a declaration in substance the same as that prescribed in the Bill for Quakers, Nloravians, and Separatists. They were willing to bind themselves to do nothing in office which would have a tendency to damage the Established Church ; what they objected to was the declara• tion in its preE,ent terms, which gave it, in their conscientious judgment, the character of as oath. The Bishop of LONDON slid that it was not to the terms of the declaration the Quakers, Moravians, and Soparatista, and he supposed also the petitioners, objected, but to its sub stance. They objected to bind themselves by any declara tion not to use the power elision- from their municipal office to the overthrow or detriraent of the Established Church, Lord BROUGHAM said there could not be the least doubt that some persons would scruple to take . an oath that would vrevent them from wing any influence which they might de rive from any source to the detriment of the Established Church, and such people could not conscientiously make any declaration, having for its object the security of that Church, but that was not the case with the Petitioners. Although they dissented from the deetriers and for-rs of the Gairch, and were unwilling to take any form of oath, they were not probilited by any conscientious sc. uple fs om declaring that they would not use their powers as municipal officers to the overthrow cr detriment of that Clurch. He ( Lord Brougham) had said, and the Petitioners said clearly, end he thought no one could misunderstand them, that they were N‘ Filing to make any declaration tantamount in sub - itaoce to that which the law now require' l, provided only that it was not so framed as to have the cliarai - I,r of an oath, such as that required by the 9 - .. h of Geo. IV. The declaration proposed in the Bill now before Parliament specially stated that the person subictibing being " ono of the people culled Quakers, or one of the brothers assiciated under the name of NlOravians, wo:1:1 not use any authority, power, or influence derived from office, to the injury or detriment of the Establi,hed Church.' Now, whit the Corporation of the City complained of w: s, that the relief afforded by the Bill was confined to three sects—Quakers, Moravians, and Separatists— whereas the relief would be gennal if these words were struck out. The petition was 1a:1 on the table. IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT. Lord BROUGHAM had now to present a petition from a body of persons -who were, unfortunately, very nu merous, being ►.risoners for debt in the gaol, known by the name or the Fleet Prison. They humbly and earnestly prayed their Lordships not to retard the Bill now before them for the abolition of Imprisonment for Debt. It was needless for him to as=ure their Lordships that he co: dial) , ~ . .upliorted the prayer of the petition. Tile Bill had eimnated from the rec mmenJation of the Common Law Commissioners, and he thought that its origin entitled it to their Lordships most fa vourable consideration. Lord ABI NG ER said that he believed the majority of the Common Law Commissioners disappro , h..l, aad expressly stated their dislpproyal, of the principle of the Bill, and (as we understood) of the details of a Bill formerly pro posed far a sirniiar object. His Noble and Learned Friend did not seem to know the exact number of that unfortunate body who were represented by the petition.—(A laugh.) But be (Lord Abinger) could tell him the number of priso ners for debt at present in the Fleet Prison was 105, and of these there was not one who might not long ago have obtained ins discharge under the Insolvent Debtors' Act, if there were not some circumstances connected with his property or his conduet which prevented him from availing himself of the pro visions of that law. We understood the Noble and Learned Lord to say, that tho aggregate property of those prisoners greatly exceeded the aggregate amount of their debts. The petition was laid on the table, and the House adjourned. HO USE OF C OMMONS.-DR®. 15 The SPIZAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o'Clock. Lord EBRINGTON brcught up the repert of the Com mittee on the Standing Orders. Mr. PR YME presnted a petition from the petitioner against the return for the borough of Dudiey. One of the rareties to the petition has signed his name Montague John Mereweather, but his name had been changed by royal grant to that of John Mereweather Turner. Under such circumstances an ob jection was taken te him as a surety, and petitioner prayed that he might bo at liberty to amend by inserting the proper name of his surety. The Hon. Member gate notice that he should make a motion on the subject on Monday. The Hon. Mem ber presented a petition from Cambridge, for the establish ment of Local Courts. POST-OFFICE REFORM. Mr. VILLIERS presented a petition from the merchants of Wolverhampton, in favour of Post-office Reform on. the principle of Mr. Rowland Hill's plan. VOTE BY BALLOT. Mr. HINDLE Y presented a petition from Renton, in Suffolk, in favour of the Ballot. Mr. ROUND presented a petition from the Guardians of a Poor Law Union in Essex, praying that the landlords, instead of the occupiers, of small tenements should bo rated. Mr. DENNISTO UN presented a petition from the Town Council of Glasgow, praying for leave to bring in a Bill to alter the mode of Assessment for that City. BRIBERY IN BRIDGEWATER. Mr. SANFORD presented a petition from as individual named Thomas Barrett, praying for the interposition of the House to put an end to the system of bribery which prevailed in the borough of Bridgewater. The peti tioner stated that he had for many years taken part in elections for the county of Somerset, and until the last election he had never been asked for a pecuniary bribe by any elector whom he canvassed. But previously to the last election, several persons had demanded from him, in the course of his canvass, the sum of 51. as the price of their votes, on the ground that the electors of Bridgewater eac h received that payment. The SPEAKER put it to the Hon. Member whether the reception of that petition would not affect the case of the sitting Members for Bridgewater, which had been already re ferred to a Committee. If it was not a petition directed immediately against those Hon. Members, and which ought, therefore, to be referred to the Committee, he would suggest to the Hon. Member the propriety of withdrawing it, until the Committee bad decided. _ Mr. SANFORD was obliged to the Speaker for his suggestion. The petitioner was not an elector of Bridge water, and had no title to approach the House in his own be half against the sitting Members. He complained generally of the effect which the corruption of Bridgewater had upon the constituency of the county of Somerset ; but as the Speaker thought that the petition might have an effect on the case already referred to a Committee, ho would withdraw it for the present. THE NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. Sir P. TRENCH gave notice, that soon after the rece3s he should more for an alteration in the relative position of the Houses of Lords and Commons, which, without materially in terfering with the plans approved of by Parliament, would tend greatly to the convenience of Members cf both Houses. THE MERCHANT SERVICE. Lord SANDON presented a petition from the Merchants, Shipowners, and Underwriters of the Port of Liverpool, pointing out the expediency of forming a Board for the pur pose of examining the qualification of such persons as proposed themselves to be Mates or Masters of Vessels em ployed in the merchant service. The petitioners referred to the Committee which sat the year before last, on the subject of shipwrecks ; and they prayed the House to take into consi deration the loss of property which had arisen from the unfit ness of persons so employed in the merchant service. Mr. R. PALMER brought up the Report of the Com mittee on tho Thames Improvement Drainage and Manure Association Bill. The Bill was then brought in and read a first time. Sir MATTHEW WOOD gave notice that he should, on Tuesday next, move for a Select Committee relative to the improvements of the metropolis. STEAM COMMUNICATION WITH THE WEST INDIES. Mr. M'KINNON, seeing the Secretary for the Treasury in his place, wished to put a question to him of an extremely important nature relative to the West India interests. He wished to know whether or not it was tho intention of her Majesty's Government set up anything like a steam communi cation between England and the West Indies? If the Right Hon. Gentleman was not prepared at the present moment to answer the question, perhaps be would be kind enough to name on what day he would do so ? Mr. F. BARING said that a plan had been suggested to Government for a very large communication indeed by steam, not only with the West Indies but the whole of the American Colonies. That plan was now under consideration, and with respect to that part relating to communications between Eng land and the West Indian Colonies, he had the best hopes with respect to it, and thought that it was very likely to be practi cable. With regard to the other part of the plan, he was afraid that much greater difficulties would attend it; and he, there fore, could not state that it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to consider of that part at present. Mr. M'KINNON wished to know whether, if private individuals set up an establishment for the purpose of such important communication, the Government would give it its countenance and support. Mr. F. BARING said that that question depended entirely upon the plan proposed. In his opinion it was a question more for the Board of Trade than for the department of the Government to which he had the honour to belong. NATIONAL BUILDINGS. Mr. GROTE presented a petition from 600 members of the London Mechanics' Ir.stitution, praying that free access might be given to rll-the national buildings, monuments, and works of art. The Hon. Member obserred that the petition was sgnecl by most. respectable persons, and at the head of it was the signature of Dr. Birkbeck. Mr. HUME cordially supported the prayer of the petition, and hoped his Majesty's Goyernrnent would lend their aisis twice for the furtherance of this most important object. THE PENSION LIST. Mr. D. W. HARVEY presented a petition from the R.idical Association of Chelmsford and Mouldhurst, in the county of Essex, praying the Hous© to institute a thorough, sincere, and searching inquiry into the Pension List. NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. Mr. STANLEY brought up the report of the Commis. sicners on the new Houses of Parliament. POST-OFFICE. Mr. HAWES asked if it were the intention of the Go vernment to turn their attention to the recommendation of the Commissioners of the Post-office inquiry in their Ninth Report, relating to the reduction of the postage, and also as to allow ing the use of penny stamps. The subject was one of deep interest to the metropolitan interests generally.—( Hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was not prepared to go to the full extent of the Ninth Report of the Commissioners, but some of their suggestions he was about to try. He was about to make an experiment of how far the stamp covers would convenience the public, and some doubts which he himself entertained as to the expediency of adoptieg them would he decided by it. With respect to the reduction of the fourpenny postage, ho proposed, under the provisions of an Act passed last session, to try the effect of reducing it one half ; but for the present ha intended to confine the experiment to the metropolitan districts. This would be a satisfactory means of proving how far the reduction of the postage might benefit the public, and in how great a degree it would affect the revenue. The reduction could be effected under the provisions of an Act, passed last Session, without its being necessary to apply to Parliament on the subject. Sir SAMUEL WHALLEY did not clearly understand the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who bad spoken throughout with his back to the Reporters' Ge.llery. made some rep!y which was quite inaudible. Sir R. PEEL hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would re peat the outline of his stet!ment for the benefit of his (Sir R. Peel's) side of the House, as they bad not heard one single nor-i of it.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") An experiment was about to be tried of introducing stamp covers in the two p7nny post di;tyLit. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Yes. Sie ROBERT PEEL—And with respect to the General Post, he unders'ood the Right ilon. Gentleman to say, th!t ha was about to try the ell - perioient of a two-penny postage within limited distances. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—AI though the question was one of public interest, one naturally tureed to the person who asked it, but he certainly had no in tention of giving the matter the appearance of a private con versation, or of concealing- anything ho had to state from the other side of the House. The answer he had made to the lion. Gent. was that he should adopt the recommendation of the Post-offiee Commissioners within the metropolitan district, by trying the experiment of s:arnp covers within the limits of the Twopenny and Thi cepenny Post. It was raid that people did not like sending their letters to be post-paid; but if they were enabled to buy stamp covers they would no doubt Fend letters in that method to a much greater extent. That he was resolved to try with respect to the second point. Ile had stated that S 3 much observation had been made on the s&ject of the effect which a reduction of the rate of postage ;vould have i❑ increasing the revenue, that he had turned his attention to it, and intended to try the experiment more extensively' than could be dune by confining it within the limits of the Twopenny post.—(Her, hear.) Within shell distances all over England the charge for letters was 4d., and that was a heavy charge on the poorer classes. The amount of revenue derived from that charge was defined. It was within that distance that they proposed to make the ex periment : he proposed to reduce the 4d. postage, not only in tho metropolitan district but through out the empire, from V, to 2d..--keeping an exact account of the amount received the number of letters carved at 4d., and the amount re ceived and the number of letters carried at the reduced postage of 21. He should lay the result of that enquiry on the table of the House, and it would then be seen, as far as the experiment went how far a large reduction of the amount of postage would or would not increase the revenue, and the question, so far as that went, would be clearly set at rest. Sr ROBERT PEEL wished to know whether it was possible to combine the reduction of the rate of postage with the other branch. Ile meant whether, in reducing the rate of postage throughout the United Kingdom, it would not be possible to unite the experiment of stamped covers. Would it not be possible, he asked, to combine with the reduction of postage an experiment with respect to the General-post, of stamped covers also ? Baronet opposite. With this explanation he would leave the matter in the hands of the House. Sir GEORGE SINCLAIR said that if the House would come to an understanding that it should not come on after 10 or 11 o'clock, he would not press his motion then. Mr. D. W. HARVEY trusted the Hon. Baronet ( Sir George Sinclair) would persevere with his motion, because he thought this was the first time an experiment of this sort had ever been .made with reference to an individual Member. —( Hear, hear, hear.) As to how far the Hon. Baronet might contemplate the addition of many names, and many reasons in support of these names was not a subject into which he was invited to enter, but he did not think it becoming or fair to allow the name of a Member of that House to stand ie the votes for many days together, leaving it as a matter of conjecture and of all sorts of whispers, without some declaration being made on the subject.—( Hear, bear.) He was asked by almost every Gentleman who entered the House, whether he was to be on the Committee or not ? ( Hear, hear.) Why, if the general impression of the country was true, that every Member who was on a Committe was well paid for being on the Committee, it might be a matter of anxiety to him or others that they should be there; but as it was a place of no profit, but of singular trial to those who were anxious to do their duty, he, for one, if he was anxious to consult his own personal convenience and personal engagements, should be well pleased to be excused. He thought, however, it was due to him that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should say whether he was to be on the Committee or not. Yes or no.---( Hear, hear.) Whether he intended to put on the list the individual with whom this inquiry originated. —( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could not impute to him that he was pressing him with any indelicate inquiry. If there was any foundation for the imputation of acting with inde licacy to any individual, that imputation ought to originate with himself, because the Right lion. Gentleman was the first individual who ever took out of the hands of a Member of that House a subject with which he had been labour ing- for a great part of his life through " good report and through evil report," making it the subject of a wonted boast that he could not frame the resolution in better words than he found it, and leaving it as a matter of town talk, of Cabinet conjecture, and of all sorts of intimations, whether he was or was not to be on the Committee. He was ask ing no favour of the Government.—( Cheers.) Ile had no de ' sire to be on the Committee; and lie wished to relieve the Chan cellor of the Exchequer from all apprehensions on the subject by stating that if he was not prepared to say at once whether he (Mr. H.) was or was not to be on the Committee, he would not serve at all.—( Cheers.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the question would come on at a fit and proper time.—( Hear, hear.) There was a notice on the Order Book for a discussion, and he would be ready to give a definitive answer at the fitting time ; but if he was to be called upon categorically to answer questions, he would not do it.— ( Hear, hear.) With respect to the other motion, all he had to say was that it would be so inconvenient to enter into it then, that he would adhere to what was the just and legitimate course of Parliamentary proceeding. He was ready to speak to the question he had moved, but would not be led into a premature discussion.—( Hear, hear.) If no notice had been given, there would then be some legi timate reason for the Hon. Member putting such a question to him. As, however, he thought proper to take that course, he would reserve himself for the discussion which was to take place upon it. Several Hon. Members cried out " Divide, divide," but Sir GEORGE SINCLAIR said that as he was certain the debate on the Pension List would not come on before ten o'clock, he would not divide the House. The amendment was then negatived without a division. DUCHIES OF CORNWALL AND LANCASTER. On the Order of the Day, for going into Committee on the Civil List, being read— Mr. HARVEY said that the present vies not only the most appropriate, but the only time at which the subject of which he had given notice could be usefully brought under the consideration of the House. It was that the Committee into which the House was about to resolve itself should make adequate provision for the appropriation of the revenues aris • ing out of the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster for the benefit of the public. He owned he was much surprised that this important question had not been brought for ward under the immediate sanction of her Majesty's Government because, disposed as he was, to make every al lowance for those heated expressions which, in the eagerness of party conflict, dropped from those Gentlemen who com posed the O r position of the day, yet he could not banish from his mind the solemn declaration which had proceeded from that side of the House with respect to this question ; a declaration which, he believed, to speak their real sentiments. It would be in the recollection of many Hon. Members whom he was now addressing that when the last Civil List was brought under the notice of that House under the Administration of the Duke, of Wellington and the Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir R. Peel), the most distinguiseed person in the ranks of the Op7osition, not the Leader, but one of the most able men amongst them, and the more able because of his legal pretensions, declared not only that the terms of his Majesty's Speech implied the surrender of these revenues to tile public, but that he considered such surrender ought in justice to be made. It would be in the recollection of the House that when that Government was borne down in consequence of the course which it thought fit to pursue with respect to the Civil Li;t, a Noble Lord who since be came Chancellor of the Exchequer, expressed his per feet concurrence in the propriety of that surrender, and at the same tisie declare] to the Government with which he had so very recently become connected, was only deterred from making the revenues of the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster a branch of those about to he surren dered by a communication from their Royal M :star, that such was not his intention. His object in bringing this motion be fore the Hote.e was, to test not only the ity of Hon. Gentlemen opposite, but of the Noble Lerd and those who acted with him, and who were now unfettered by any intima tion frora the Throne of a similar minim. lie was anxious to test the sincerity of those who called themselves Reformers. Those Members who took the trouble to look over the rolls of that House, would find that within the last quarter of a century the question of these Duchies being public property had frequently been brought before the Parliament. Attempts had bear made to make these Duchies public property ; sonic met the question with a direct negative., and many others had put the question off from time to time in consequence of the inaptitude of the period at wi ich it was brought fora d— ell of that way of thiaking said, you cannot do anything with this until the demise of the Crown. Th-A thane had now arrived--they must either enter upon the question then, or according to all human views none of those whom he then addressed would ever have another opportunity of doing so.—( Hear, hear.) The Civil List which they were about to close was to be a fied grant for a life, which, according to all human probability, would survive any of those who were then present. There was, therefore, no resting place for those who loved temporising—there was now no ground upon which they could make a stand.—( Hear.) Unless they then threw the shield of Parliament over the funds of these Duchies, there would be an end to the hopes of all advantage to the public during the present generation. The hour had arrived, and that was the time when the question was to be tried. He had the greatest authority for saying that these flinds were public property—the authority of an indivi dual to whose judgment the members of the Government must pay respect, inasmuch as they had raised him to the highest judicial authority, certainly for his standing in that House, but of course and most undoubtedly for his knowledge of the law—he meant Lord Brougham, who, only seven days before he took the Woolsack, declared these revenues to be public property ; that opinion was concurred in by the then Chancel lor of the Exchequer (Lord Althorp), who did not revolt at the nature of the claim, but who at an after period, said he hid deferred his own opinion to that of his Royal Master. It was important that this question should assume something of an every day character, something that the people could understand. It was the duty of the House to tell the people what the real nature of the property was which the Crown possessed. There had been lately laid on the table of the House the report of the Civil List Committee, and he could not but own that he was a little surprised at the meagre character of it.--( Hear, hear, hear, and cheers.) He should like to bo informed whether the revenues of the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster in any way or mariner engaged their attention. Now what was the purport of the appointment of that Committee ? It was for the ample sup port of the dignity, splendour, and comfort of the Crown ; and that provision, which had been made by that Committee, the House was invited to embody into a law. Now, he wished to know whether they were to understand that in part of the 385,0001., which was to be appropriated to this object, it was considered that the revenues arising from these Duchies were essential to the attainment of this object ?—( Cheers.) On the contrary, was it not the fact that the provision which had been made was abundant, and more than abundant, for all the objects for the main tenance of the dignity, splendour, and comfort of the Crown. In his opinion, the Committee had r e vell e d i n th e riot of royalty—( Laughter ;)--they had not only acceded to all that her Majesty's Royal predecessor had received—they had even gone farther than that—they had rieinded a sum which they had thrown in without any occasion whatever as a make-weight. In order to make the sum equal, they had actually exceeded the income of the late King by a sum of 8,000/. They had done more ; it appeared by the Re port that the expenditure of the late King, bearing in mind the different adjuncts—( Laughter)—by which he was surrounded, and from which her present Majesty was free, had been exceeded by a sum something like 15,0001. or 16,0001. In addition to this he would ask, was her Majesty to be in the possession of the uncoutrouled revenues, exaggerated if they pleased by the public statements that had gone forth, but at any rate excessively great, which arose from those two sources. If the statement which he made was an over-statement, there were those present who could bring it within the boundaries of truth. He believed that he was not exaggerating, when he stated that from those two sources, a sum little short of 50,000/. found its way into the secret coffers of the Crown.—( Hear, hear.) Let those gentlemen who came into the House under the de nomination of Reformers, see to a salutary reform. Those gentlemen who, when on the other side of the House and at the hustings were so scrutinizing as that nothing could es cape their opposition—let them say that in addition to a Privy Purse of 60,0001.—in addition to 10,000/. or 12,0001. ex pressly for the purposes of charity —in addition to an approved accession between the receipt and expenditure of the money that was allotted to her predecessor—an addition of 8,0001. actually thrown into the grant for the purpose of making the grant a round sum—in addition to all those, was the House still further to say that those revenues, amounting, as he Lad stated, and as he believed, one year with another, to no thing short of 50,0001.—was that also to bo thrown • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the answer he would give was one which the Right Hon. Gentleman would probably anticipate—they would try the ex periment first on the shorter distances. If they succeeded there would be no difficulty in applying it to more remote distances, but they ought to be certain that it would succeed before they went to any greater extent. He did not wish to speak disparagingly, b❑t he was not very sanguine as to its success. The experience of a few months would, however, determine that. Mr. HALL hoped that as the experiment was about to be made, those parties who resided in the 3d district would he reduced to 2d. For instance, he hoped that those parsons who resided in Regent's-park would no more be charged more for letters than those residing at Windsor. Mr. M. PHILIPS enquired whether it wai intended to re duce the postage generally throughout the country—more es pecially in large towns? The CHANCELLOR ofthe EXCHEQUER had already stated that he intended to try the experiment in all places in the empire where a 4d. postage was now taken. In answer to Mr. CLAY, the Right Hon. Gentleman said, it was intended to sell the stamped covers at twopence. BODMIN ELECTION. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the E XCHE j QUER, the petitioners against the return for Bodmin ob tained an extension of the time to complete their recognizances required by the regulation of the House to the 23d December. CIVIL LIST. On the motion that the Order of the Day for the House going into Committee on the Civil List-- Sir GEORGE SINCLAIR said that he would take that opportnnity of putting a question to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. He wished to know whether it was his intention to bring forward to-night the subject of the ap pointment of the Committee on the Pension List, and whether he intended to move that the Honourable Member for South wark should form one of that Committee. He also wished to know at what hour the Right Hon. Gentleman would be likely to bring it on. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that if the Honourable Gentleman had remained in the House last night, he would have heard from him the course he intended to adopt. He stated the first question would be the Civil List ; the next the increase of income to her Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent; and that if, after that, there was time sufficient, be should bring forward the subject of the formation of the Committee with respect to pensions. Until he saw at what hour the discussion in the two first subjects terminated, he should reserve giving any decided answer to the Hon. Baronet. Sir GEORGE SINCLAIR said that such being the case, he felt it his duty to move as an amendment, that the Order of the Day for the nomination of the Committee on the Pension List should be now read. The SPEAKER having put the original question and the amendment, The CHANCELLORofthe EXCHEQUERobservedthat according to the regulations that had been entered into by the House, he believed it had been settled that Government on Fridays were to bring forward that species of business which they thought most proper and pressing, and he was of opinion that it was far more expedient to bring on the Civil List of her Majesty than the amendment of the Hon. THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, DECEMBER 16, 1837. into the vat of the Monarch, either to be expended or to be treasured up just as her Majesty should think fit ? If it was to be so, let it be so understood ; but let the public hear no more of the pernicious influence of 10,000/. of secret service money—let the public hear no more of property which was to be at the disposal of the Crown, but of which Parlia ment was to have no cognizance.—( Hear, hear.) If those extravagant sums which, under an improved system, might probably produce double the amount—if they were to be the sport of Courts—if they were to be hoarded up or expended as ex travagances might suggest, let that be understood. Then he was to be told that his fears were groundless, because it was the intention of Government to institute an inquiry into those reve nues, and to place them upon a footing that would give Par liament a cognizance of their application. Why that was of little value. If there was to be an inquiry into those revenues, with a view to their improvement, but at the same time the improved benefit was to be placed at the irresponsible disposal of the Monarch for the time being, it might be very gratifying to that illustrious individual to participate in the benefits resulting in that inquiry, but so far as regarded the public, the benefit would be none at all.—( Hear, hear, hear.) But it was the more important that the House should ex tend its willing and ready superintendence of this property with a view to make it available to the public, because it must be held as a probable contingency—at all events not an improbable one, that in the course of two or three years they would be called upon to take off their hats to hear a Royal Message read asking the House to make a provision for a happy circumstance that had arisen, which was to preserve the uninterrupted suc cession of the House of Hanover to the British Crown— ( Hear, hear, and laughter)—and that they would be in vited to grant some 50,000/. or 100,000/. for an heir-apparent to our Crown. —( Renewed laughter.) This property was the proper provision for the Prince of Wales, when there was one. But if her Majesty ought to possess this 50,000/. per annum as part of her annual income, in what way was the deficiency to be made up, when the Royal being to whom he had adverted made his appearance and claimed this money? If it was to be considered as essential to the comfort, the dignity, and the splendour of the Sovereign, how was the deficiency to be supplied but by some other grant ? On every ground, therefore, this property ought to be protected from misapplication. One could not help smiling at the at tempts which had been practised upon the credulity of Par liament on this subject.—( Loud cheering.) In the year 1830, it was " a matter of deep regret" that the Civil List Committee was debarred from entering into this desir able inquiry, by being restrained from calling for persons, papers, and records. The inconvenience arising from this want of proper power in the Committee, was owing to the in experience of a Government who had for a quarter of a century been looking for power, but had not then been seven days warm in their seats—( Laughter)—and for whom, therefore, some excuse might be made. But the authors of that Committee were the framers of the present one ; yet they came to this House with the old lamentation, that they could not enter into this inquiry, to which they were prompted alike by inclination and by duty, because the Committee was not empowered to send for persons, papers, and records. And why not ? Who had stopped them ? Why when they had framed the words of the appointment did they not intro duce " and that the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records ?" One consequence was, that they had another meagre production—and they would have the same extravagance and the same amount as the former reigns. And then they were told that the grants to former Monarchs were the same, and that they had added nothing more than was found on the list. What was the constant course taken by Honourable Gentlemen in opposition ? Were they not con stantly talking of the great extravagance of the Civil List, and did they not say that it required a strict investigation? —( Hear.) Did Hon. Gentlemen suppose that no attention had been paid to these statements? Did they suppose that the memory of those was so fragile that there was no recollection of what they had said ? Could Honourable Gentlemen call to their recollection, either by having been in the House, or by having read the debates which took place in the year 1816, when the Civil List of the Prince Regent was established ? Could they forget the cutting sarcasm of George Tierney to the then Lord Castlereagh, about the ridiculous Chamberlain, Lord High Steward, and Knights and Women of the Stole ?—( A laugh.) Had he not held all these up to ridicule; and what was the answer of Lord Castlereagh at that time? " True, they were extrava gant; but look at the high prices of everything, and the ne cessity that existed of adapting the establishment of the Royal Household to the extravagance of the time." Why, if in 1816 it was necessary to do that in consequence of the high prices, was not that a reason, when they were surrounded by every kind of economical reform and competition, with its consequences, that therefore they ought to look into the matter with a view to its reduction. Besides, let them look at the improved lights that had been shed on the Government of late. Had they not Commissioners travelling throughout the country making experiments upon the gastric organs of men, and ascertaining what quantity (by refined and generous experiments on their conditions and appetites) was necessary to support a strong-armed, healthy, and rural labourer? And now that it had been proclaimed that the giant strength and muscular frame, and six feet of elevation of the labourer was to be sustained at 6s. per week, was such a standard of eco nomy to be applied to the lower classes of the commenity, and yet that the Committee should run riot and take no heed of those things in 1837, which formed the subject of severe and well-merited ridicule in 181G?—or wes it to go forth to the world that these statements were merely made in mockery of party conflict, and that when these things were pressed upon the attention of their opponents they had shrunk from the economy they bad so loudly de claimed about ?—( Hear.) Whoever looked through the present Civil List would find not only that there was no change for the better, but a considerable change for the worse. Let it not go forth to the world that they had produced a Civil List for the support of her Majesty which was less than that of her Royal Uncle. It ought to be borne in mind, although it had not been previously stated, and at all events it had not prominently been put forth that his Majesty stood in very different circumstances, and was surrounded by claimants on his parental attention which did not belong . to the present illustrious individual. And why should there have been any delicacy in the iiivestiga tion? In the former Report it was stated they felt disinclined to enter into any of the expenses of the Royal Household, because it was considered as extremely unpleasant to the feelings of the Royal Individual who filled the Throne ; and because it was said it was well known that the individuals who composed at the time what might be considered the royal or domestic household, were familiar to it—that the Royal in dividual had been an inmate of the palace for years himself; he could not pace its floors, nor walk its anti-chambers, ncr cross its parks, but what he saw some ancient and faithful at tendant of his Royal Father cr Mother, with whom lie from his childhood had been familiar, and whose removal or dimi nished income would be a matt-r of anxiety to him. Not so with her Majesty the Queen ; she could have no sympathies of this sort, and he was satisfied that the first feeling of her heart must have been to have these establishments put on that correct foundation which would be justified by inquiry. In stead of that, this Committee, which had been shut up with closed doors for six or seven days, occasionally soothing its monotonous labours by a fruitless division, came to that House and proposed a grant even greater than that of William IV. because though it was important the public should not be misled by contrasted figures, at the same time they were not apprised of the circumstances which created that difference. It was very true that the amount pro posed to be granted to the Queen wits less than the sum that was proposed to be granted to her Royal predecessor ; yet, in point of fact, it was greater, because the emit to the King embraced 50,000/. a-year to the Queen. That, of course, was disposed of in another way—that was the country got 50,0001. by having no Queen Consort, and it lost 50,0001. more by having a Queen Dowager.— (Hear, hear, hear.) Then there was 55,000/. taken from the Royal Grant, inasmuch, as there was nothing to be allotted to Pensions, but when Hon. Members looked at the two sums, taking the 50,0001. given to her late Majesty, and the 75,000/. with which the Pension List was charged, they would find the sum actually now proposed to be voted to her Majesty, was 20,0001. more than it was to her Royal predecessor.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Now he was well aware that he was talking to the wind.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He was as satisfied as he was of his own being, that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had come down to the House and said that he was about to move, in obedience to the Royal Message, in conse quence of what appeared to be the nearer proximity of the Duchess of Kent to the Throne, a proposition which they were gratified to find they were enabled to do in the exuberance of their feelings—feelings in which that House and the country largely participated, by having them moderated by a previous standard—if they were to look to the sentiments of affectionate regard for the Duchess that existed in the country, they hardly knew where would be the limit to the propositions, but inasmuch as they found there had been a 100,0001. a year granted to the widow of the late King, they could not for a moment doubt the House would think that if the widow of a King ought to have 100,0001, the mother of a Queen ought at least to have the same, and he had no more doubt than he had of his own existence, that that proposition would have been received with precisely the same acclamations as the proposition of the 30,000/. was, with this difference, that Gentlemen would have been still louder in their condemnation of the conduct pursued by her Majesty's Ministers in not telling them in good time they meant to propose 100,000/., so that they might have been there with their proud presence to congratulate the Duchess on that liberal, but not too bountiful, supply.—( Loud cheers.) As regarded the grant of 30,000/. a-year to the Duchess of Kent, he was ready to admit that it was moderate. Ile could not see if a grant of 100,000/. a-year and two palaces, one of which took 23,000/. to put into order, why the mother of the Queen, who was now placed in a degree of increased state, for she reflected a portion of the dignity of the Crown, should not obtain a grant of 30,000/. a year, while so large a grant as that of 100,0001. a year was made to the Queen Dowager. Ile did not think, however, that this grant to the Duchess of Kent was made in a becoming or generous way. The Honourable Member then referred to the . Act passed in 1831 for the grant of 10,0001., and proceeded to say, that it did not bear the interpretation put upon it by the Law Officers of the Crown. It was due to the public to know exactly how the matter stood.—( Hear, hear.) Three different grants had already been made to the Duchess of Kent, and they were called on to-night to give a fourth. The first grant was made upon her marriage to the late Duke. The Parliament of that day, who were not economists or reformers, sat down to consider what would be an adequate provision in the event of the Duchess becoming a widow, and determined that the sum of 6,000/. was sufficient. Were they now to turn round and say that when the event took place that sum was too little? In process of time the Duchess had a child, and 6,000/. a year more was granted for her maintenance and education. When that child became an adult, and succeeded 1 to the Throne, ought not that allowance, in common sense, to i cease? Then it was that 10,000/. further was granted to the Duchess, 4.0001. of which was to be for the Duchess as long as she lived, and 6,0001. as long as the Princess should lire; and the lawyers said that by that Act the Duchess was entitled to the 6,0001., as long as the Princess lives, and that, therefore, she might sell it, though she might die. If any person would take the trouble to look at the Act, they would at once find that that was not only a most overstrained construction of the Act, but one entirely at variance with its provisions, for the Act said that the receipt of the Duchess was to be a full discharge. Now, how could the receipt of the Duchess be given by _her when she was dead ? --(Hear.) The real effect of the Act was this, that the Duchess of Kent should have 4,0001. as long as she lived, and she was to have the 6,0001. as long as the Princess Vic toria was under her care. But in stepped the present profound lawyers of the Crown saying that the Duchess of Kent was fully entitled to that amount, as long as the Princess lived, and they say what is the value of 6,0001. for such a life ?—( Cheers.) They further said that in point of fact though the House was giving the Duchess 8,0001., we (the Ministerial Cabinet) are doing something fur your good. This he was afraid was so fine a reverie as would . find no harbour in any one but a most fine calculator. And then allow him to say, for they would never have an op portunity of discussing this matter again, same year or two hence, when a little more distress was prevalent, and when Royalty was less rampant, they would be reminded—sonic gentlemen near him—sonic of the ultra-Radicals, would get up and remind them of the readiness with which they conceded this grant—they would be taunted with it, and asked why slid they not say something against it at the time ? They would answer—well, so we would, but the House was so indi gestible at the time, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer so singularly seductive, that they could not ; but this we will tell ' you, if ever there is another Civil List we will act differently, and as it is a fair chance that some of us will survive a young lady of nineteen, only give us credit for our future good inten tions.—( Hear, hear.) But he did not mean to act in that way; and he desired to ask one or two questions more about this 30,0001. a-year to the Duchess of Kent. Was the Duchess to have this under all circumstances? Mr. G ROTE —Yes, yes. Mr. D. W. HA RVE Y—Yes, yes, he heard I He sup posed that lion. Gentlemen would like to have to pay it out of some of his own paper 1--( Much laughter.) He was asking the guardians of the British purse, whether it was intended that this 30,0001. a-year was to be paid to the Duchess of Kent under all circumstances ? In all public meetings at the present day it was a general toast to drink the health of " the Royal Family now in Eeglaed."—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) It was objected to the King of Hanover that lie spent in another country the money which he drew from the pockets of the British people. Might not the Duchess of Kent cease to. live iu this country ? And was it intended in that ease to continue the payment of this 30,0001.—( Hear.) lie would now proceed at once to his motion.—(Cheers.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer cheered him. Certainly the Chancellor of the Exchequer might cheer him, for the Right Hon. Gentleman was himself distinguished by the straight and direct manner in which he always proceeded to the question before the House.—(Cheers and laughter.) His motion was in the terms which appeared upon the ordet a, " That it be an instruction to the Committee that provision be made in the Civil List Bill, for the protection of the right of Parliament to inquire into, and appropriate the revenues of the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall respectively." Mr. C. BULLER seconded the motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that notwithstanding the provocation which the Hon. Member, with his usual eloquence, bad given, he would not eater into the details of the Civil List, or the annuity of her Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent, but would confine himself to the motion of the Hon. Member. The Hon. Member ap peared to suppose the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall were included in the hereditary revenues surrendered by her Majesty at the opening of the session, for if not, why, the consent of the Crown was necessary to discuss this question. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman could not complain of be ing taken by surprise with reference to the real meaning of the Queen's speech. On two distinct occasions he had ex pressed that meaning to the House. The Hon. and Learned Member had referred to the King's speech in 1830, and had stated that on that occasion a Noble Lord who was then a great ornament of that House had interpreted the words con tained in that speech to mean that the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster were included. It was not for him to state what was the discussion that took place on that occasion, for it had no reference to the Queen's address from the throne on the present occasion. The interpretation put on the speech of William IV. was expressed in the Civil List Act of Wil liam IV., and in that Act those duchies, so far from being surrendered, were reserved in the full possession of the Crown. And what did the Message from the Crown say on the present occasion? It stated that the same here ditary revenues which wet e surrendered by William IV. were surrendered by the -present Queen. Her Majesty gave up the hereditary revenues which stood surrendered in the Civil List Act, but this did not include the revenues of the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster, and consequently they were not in a position to discuss this proposition. Flu should be sorry, however, if this explanation should have the effect of taking the Hon. and Learned Member for Southwark or any other lion. Member by surprise in any respect. He had stated at the commencement of the Session and during the progress of the Civil List in the last debate, what the in tention of Government was with regard to these ties) Duchies. The answer he had given was, that it was not intended to include in the Civil List any arrangement for the surrender of the Deehies of Cornwall and Lancaster, and what he had then stated had been made matter of observation on both sides of the House. Therefore Hon. Gentlemen in the House, and the people out of it, were perfectly aware of the nature of the proposition he intended to submit to the House. He had then stated a matter which had been cheered by many lion. Members, and he believed by the Hon. and Learned Member. He then mated the great objections wore applicable to the present system of mats igement, and to the mystery of the administration, and he added that it was the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill or Bills into Parliament to provide first for a better administration of the property of the Duchies, and also to provide for rendering annually to Parliament an account of the Duchies, and that that which was so long a mystery should be brought specially under the notice of Parliament, namely, the amount of money received and receivable, and the system under which the property was administered.—( Cheers.) To that declaration he entirely adhered.—( Heer, hear.) There was no gentleman connected with the Duchies of Cornwall or Lancaster who was not aware that this was a very complicated subject. It was a very easy thing to say—put these Duchies under a simpler end better system of management ; but the operation was attended v ith great difficulty. As an instance he would take one mat ter connected with the Duchy of Cornwall. The question of the tin duties had been brought under his consideration by va r:ous gentlemen coenected either by property or retreseeta tion with the Duchy. He hoped most sincerely is the pro gress of the session to be able to mske a proposition on this subject. From the communications which he had had on both sides, he was perfectly well aware that this was a very difficult subject to approach, and that, too, with a view to consult the interests of all. There were, therefore, many difficulties in the consideration of the present ques tion. Lest possibly any Honourable Gentleman should be taken by surprise, he would on the present occasion state that it never was the intention of Government, on the contrary, it was the reverse of their intention, that these re venues should be surrendered by the Crown. He would not follow the Honourable and Learned Member through his details. The House would recollect that the Duchy of Corn wall was held profitably by the Crown only as long as there was not a Prince of Wales. If there should be a Prince of Wales, under the law of the land the revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall became vested in him as Duke of Cornwall. It was, therefore, not necessary to %ome to Parliament for any revenue for the support of the Prince of Wales. The revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall were appropriated for that purpose, they were accumulated to provide for the wants of the Prince of Wales, and were applicable, when a Prince was born, to his maintenance. He would say one word as to the state ment regarding the Civil List Committee. He begged the attention of the House for a moment. The representations of the Honourable and Learned Member for Southwark were calculated to mystify the House, and he would, therefore, beg their attention to the facts. The Honourable and Learned Member said that the Committee of 1830 had, through the inexperience of the Government, neglected to clothe them selves with power to send for papers, persons, and records. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman wanted to have it in ferred that the Committee expressed deep regret that they had not been furnished with adequate powers on the occasion; and yet that the present Government, who were the same people who moved the former Committee, had fallen into the same mistake, and that the inquiry, therefore, was defective and insufficient. Now it was no such thing. The facts were entirely contrary to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's recol lection of them. Sir Henry Parnell moved for the Com mittee—he moved it while in opposition, and he begged the attention of the Hon. Member for the City of London who was interested in this subject. On the 12th of November, 1830, Sir Henry Parnell moved that the Committee should have power to examine the accounts laid before the House, but that they should not have the power to call witnesses. Mr. Banks said that he did not wish to have enlarged powers, but he wished to have full explanation ; and Lord Althorp said that "it was stated that they could come to no satis factory conclusion unless the Committee had leave to send for papers, persons, and records. Such a permission would, he knew, be a very great increase of power ; but could no in formation be afforded if this power was refused ? He ad mitted that a great degree of delicacy ought to he observed with respect to certain heads of the Civil List. For his own part he felt no desire to examine closely into them ; on the contrary, he wished not to have such power." After the Re pert of the Committee Lord Althorp stated that the Com mittee had not the power to examine witnesses or records, nor to go into matters inconsistent with the dignity of the Crown ; but added that questions had been asked of hies (Lord Al thorp), and that so far he considered himself responsible. The Right Hon. Gentleman, in conclusion, urged the House to confine its attention to the subject immediately before them, at the same time pledging himself to give his best attention to these revenues, in order to introduce a better system of ma nagement wherever it was practicable. The SPEAKER repeated what he had before stated, that without the consent of the Crown, no motion for any inter ference in the management of the Duchies could be enter tained by the ileuse.—( Hear, bear.) Mr. C. BULLER then rose to address the House, but was called to order by Lord Sandon, who submitted that, after what had fallen from the Chair, the Honourable Mem ber could not I“;ci_,.d.--(Ciit's of " Hear, hear, (tear.") Mr. C. BULLER wished to know how the point of form could be got over to discuss a great national grievance.— ( Cheers.) And he should propose the adjournment of this dis c ussion till Monday.—(Cries of "Go on.") The Hon. Mem ber was proceeding, when The SPEAKER put it to the House if the discussion should be allowed to continue upon a question which the House had no power to entertain.—( Hear, hear.) After a few words from Mr. II UNIE, Mr. WARBURTON suggested the adjournment of the deb:ee until the consent of the Crown to this motion had been s'gn . fied.—( Hear, hear.) The SPEAKER said that the Order of t he Day for the House resolving into Committee on the Civil List Bill having' been read, the question which would natural l y follow was, that he (the Speaker) should leave the Chair. In the in terim, however, an Hon. Member had moved an instruction to the Committee, which was of a nature which he thought could not be entertained by the House. The question ur was, whether the House would entertain ano ther motion, ot quite different class, and not connected with the subject mat ter of the Bill, to intervene between the question that be leave the Chair. He believed it was competent to an Hop . Member to move an instruction to the Committee upon the motion for leaving the Chair, but he was not aware that b e could move anything else.—( Hear, bear.) Mr. T. ATTWOOD said a few words from under th e Gallery, w hich, however, did no reah us. Mr. D. W. HA RVE Y, as he t had c moved an amendment which he found, owieg to some form of the House, could not be put without the consent of the Crown, should certainly bow to the decision of the Chair and withdraw it.--( H ear ' ) At the same time, as he apprehended that it was quite COva' petent to any Member at this stage of the proceedingsen cit! move any motion which he thought proper by way of am ment, he should now move that this debate be adjourned untl, her Majesty's Ministers had signified that her Majesty hs"- consented to allow the House of Commons to take the con sideration of the revenues of the Duchies of Cornwa ll and con sideration caster into account is connection with the other hereditary roe' noes of the Crown, and to make such appropriation of th°t em as they might think necessary. He (Mr. Harvey) could II believe that there could exist any desire on the part of he Majesty's Ministers to stifle so important a subject a s this at the present moment, because the House should recollect that if it were not dealt with now, it could never in all pooit, f be tacit up by them a ga in. H e s h ou ld, therefore, tak e sense of the House upon the amendment which they ha d J" -- read. )lution The SPEAKER reminded the House of the resolute a the 24th of November, which declared " that upon &Ss proprieted to orders, and a question being put fro nl o chair that an order of the day be read, no amendment shed e ier propssed, except that the orders of the day, or that any cr "_ set down for the same day, be now read ; but that this rcc , latien shall not apply to the case of a Committee of SON/ or a Committee of- Ways and Means." He had alrea stated that the order of the day for going into Comnaittee.°o' the Civil List Bill had been read ; since then antinstructniee had been moved to the Committee, which it was questio vie; whether the House could entertain. But he thought it re _ not competent to any member to make any other motion P. vious to his leaving the chair,' unless in the form of n ° struction to the Committee. Mr. HUME asked whether the House was to understand that an adjournment of this question could not be moved? _ The SPEAKER raid there was as question before ,t 7 Ilouse, unless the House were prepared to e nter upon the 3L mission of the instruction to the Committee moved by T . Hon. Member for Southwark. If, on the contrary, this t ha t struction were eithdrawn, the question would then be put t ' be (the Speaker) do now leave the Chair. Lord J. RUSEELL should move that the Speaker ° d ° now leave the Chair." Mr. C. BULLER would move that the Speaker shnt etla not leave the Chair till Monday.—( A laugh.) Wel l, t " he should never leave the Chair.—(Renewed laughter: a n d " Order I") The SPEAKER said it was essential that the Huse should put its own construction upon its own resolution. Abe question for the House to decide was, whether, consiste nt l with the resolution of the 24th Nov., Members might MO Y3 a amendment to the question that he now leave the Chair. Le An Hoe. MEMBER on the Opposition Bench moved that tn resolution of the 24th of November be read by the Clerk. The Clerk accordingly read the resolution in question. , Mr. AGLIONBY cbserved 'that the resolution which had just heard read had arisen out of a report of a setae Committee which had vat last session on the subject el tbe public business of that House, and was i n t en d e d to meet the inconvenience which had resulted from the pract i ce too ftc quently adopted by Honourable Members of selecting th e motion for the reading of an order of the day as an occasion for bringing forward motions of their own totally irrelevant t ° the subject-matter of that order of the day. Such having e been the origin of the resolution of the 24th of November. it thought that the present dilemma in the application of might be t rid of, either by adhering t o the spirit of t e l l° resolution itself, which intended that th e su bj ec t- ma tter of th e order of the day should not be gat rid of by irrelevant atrerwt: meets, or by proceeding, in strict accordance with the words °f the resolution, to the second order of the day. of Lord J. RUSSELL said that with respect to the fern s the amendment by which the question for the Speake r' leaving the chair might be met, he believed that on form er occasions it had been usual to move that the Bill be COol: mitted that day six months or that day three months, without the introduction of any matter irrelevant to the subject-matter of the Bill. Mr. C. BULLER said it was hi s i n t en ti on t o move as 83 amendment that the Bill he committ e d on M on day. T h e , e revenues of the Duchies of Lancaster and C ornwa ll were pa rt of the revellues of the Crown, and he (Mr. C. Buller) thought it rather extraordinary that they should be allowed to be retained in their present state, when every other branch 0 a the hereditary revenues of the Crown had been given up, er i this, as it appeared, only on account of some barbarous feu" rights which people chose to connect with the subject. T h° only object which could be had in view in so doing was to re tain to tie' Crown, or rather to its advisers, the patronag over the numerous little offices and sinecures attached to th e revenues. With respect to the Duchy of Lancaster he P er i sonally knew nothing ; but with the offices of the Duchy ° Cornwall lie was better acquainted. After referring to th . e i late Committee on Church Property, the Honourable a n " Learned Member proceeded to observe that the very Fn ul e e species of bad management which had been . found to 0 1e ; in reference to Church property existed also in the affair s of the Duchy of Cornwall ; and that so harassed and an noyed were the inhabitants by the vexatious restraints t° which they were subjected, that nothing but a coil; plcte reform of the system could satisfy them. Anienre, the foremost of the grievances of which the inh a bitants of tu l " locality had to complain was the system of tin d u ties. T ilero were only four appointed coining towns in the Duchy, to (l e d or other of which all the tin had to be t a k en b e f o re It ce ° • be disposed of, to pay the duty and be stamped. This pro duced a great delay, oaten obstructive to the arrangement l the producer, to say nettling of the expense of t ransporra The Duke of Cornwall was the only person in the kingde re who was not bound by any term of prescription, and thercf ° ° o a clam mice set up, arising at however distant a period, cc, never be lost. In one case, that of a large miring prop to ti e only evidence set up was the payment of threeeet ° l es s King John, and yet, that being held sufficient to proec,r the property had once belonged to a D u k e o f Cornwawt claim was established which nothing but an Act of Parliarleos could take away. But the Duchy of Cornwall, beslfild its prescriptive imm un ity f rom s t a t u t ory li m i ta tions: r the additional ad van t age o f b e i ng a bl e to do Whateic'eee it pleased with th e ev id ence re l at i ng to an y Pnr t - o - s e lar claim, either to withhold it or produce it, 45 t ee thought proper. It would be recollected, doubtless, 11 . o i, Honourable Member for Oxf or d U n i vers i ty , w h o bad !wills pated with him in the delights of the record C om mittees bf boars, that it was th ere sta t e d t h at t h e recor d s o f the D i t e e es of Cornwall w ere p r i vate property, an d h e l d as t h e title ut he y of an estate—that was to say, they were private, as long ° do e chose, and public only when it was thought proper to P r l d al them in court. Now he a sked whethe r P ar liament wen et s low such a tenure as this to remain, f a r w hi c h there Was parallel to be found in all the revenues of the Crown t he that he wanted was to see them share the same fate ..oect other hereditary revenues of the Crown, to be In aria lior by public officers, and made the subject of compe osB oo in cases where it was thought proper. There was orlY o b' point more to which he wished to advert. It had been bet jected that these revenues did not belong to the Qaccloty to the Prince of Wales whenever there might bo one. t he this was an objection which certainly did not WI, t° ,4lo ° duchy of Lancaster; and, therefore, he could not iroup. under what pretence rte revenues, at least, could not be glv The question having been put fern the chair, Lord ELIOT had the most perfect confidence tha the w licl; Right Hon. Gentleman would introduce two Billartten of would have the effect of removing- at least a large P O ,,ber fo r the grievances of which the Hon. and Learned g e- bt the Liskeard had complained.—( Hear, hear.) He thong 4ene of whole system ought to be gone into, a better 01;oi5terY , management and admi n i s t ra ti o n provided, and _ char' cleared away. If hi s Ri g ht H ono urable Friend tre Lich be cellor of the Exchequer fulfilled the pledge into , u,', lea e.) had entered, he should have his cordial concurrence.-' Right Sir CHARLES LEMON felt very grateful to b!,_2", t he Hon. Friend for the promise he had made, not onl r e s t,nf' ul d be accounts of the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster n e u w , s r. la'd regularly before the House, but also that some n o ' r the ir tern should be introduced for the better administration dignity w as affairs. But he must confess that what was now pr:_P e ° not at all satisfactory with reference to the ease pe' e _, s. it r su n j v " ch arge of the Queen, and the satisfaction of her l) leg . 0 was notorious—without wishing to whatever against the Duchy of Cornwalleae. e O O, c i ty and privileges were very greatly ener fer b tbe re e l s a former times, and that the Die The consequenc as way which was considered a grievance. and almost eywrYair°o that a state of warfare existed between „ ear, he hy of its just c l a i ms , w as compelled to incshtrt'ute prosecutionsc v this " erties of t prefer r hat a- Its rights Evendi v i du asupposinlandholderg tha i t n t that art r p n a a r re t title, ana patron:oc:: were retained—its administration, colfittahletsperoep7 tr o The title carried to the general account t Charter, and depend a , r ho Duke et Cornwall was t ea r est there seemed to be no reason wl o iy . t t l h h e e reeoveenntureys. and it so ha PP ene ;d: it a secondary and incidental interestew;. the f h t time by tbc kir Charter were hal t had been held for more than The terms of that i ubs r ale from the reign of Edward 111 d an independent possession. vas very g reat ut i i i That, should .10 be fCO MW" or' could - be Duke 0 It was ther the Queen's son beyond his cognizaucee. Charter Acr d n to el present Re a, however, was a matter peculiar, so much so that there to i ti terr t e d t e c o the e' exceedingly peculiar, an thoo ri e ur chas ies har. tainly unquestioned thatd Henry literally so much so that ; of the r Duke ot r the e soil, was ve ss l., the language iciest 5° nor George 11., nor George IL tratiimt i l t i a a % n e s e to he ter requiring the Duke of Cornvra onfhtihtlear h