The Sun. — London, England, 1823-04-18 00:00:00

/Moat)" at Madrid; but we got nothing in return from France. • - tie believed that no instance of negociations so con ducted—no such example of implicit confidence on the one side, and of wily precaution on the other side, had. ever been avowed by a British Minister to that House. The memorandum of. the British Government (see the Inclosure, No. 5) went to state that his Majesty had not an opportunity to make represen tations of non-interference with the Government of Spain. Why if Ministers had entertained no apprehensions on that head, of what avail Was a protesting memorandum : and if any kind of apprehensions were entertained, then it was palpable: that the Congressional conferencea had relation to objects now apecifi. tally known, (see the inclesure4Vo. II.) This circumstance was avowed, arid. even stated at The einigreas of Verona, when the general conferences on the affairs of Spain took priority, New, therOftire ' - he would esk the - Noble Earl opposite if he was tinivit. Eng to produce to their .Lordahips those, papers Which might enable them distinctly to judge what had passed.at those confer ences with regard to Spam ?---[ Here the Noble Earl referred to the dispatch from Sir C. Stuart, dated. MaY'l7, 1820.11rOuld the Noble Earl opposite have nnyobjection to produce. the dis patch ,of the sth of 'Nov. 1022? But the next general object to whack he wished to direct the attention of their Lordships was the obnoxious principle that authorised France to compel Spain. to adept some changes in her Government,. a principle that seem ed not only to be disclaimed but condemned by his Majesty's Government; but, upon this subject, .he gave little credit to the Ciicitlar at Laybach, when then followed the exception of I Naplee, end now that ofSpain. If their Lordshipsiooked at the utmoat amount of a disclahner, it resulted in non.intrrference. ; an,i what did such a disclaimer, mean, when the British Minis ter at Madrid was. found advising some concession)! to France ? Ile was ashamed. and 'afflicted not to find, either in our cone .munietitions to France or elsewhere, a denunciation of the prin ciple of interference—(See the Inclosure. No. , L)—lie was so much attached to the honourable reputation of the, illustrious Duke (Wellington) that he was surprised. to see no . proper re presentations made 1.1 himself to the _principle of interference on the vart of the Government of France; He could not, in deed, hod one single word against the principle of interference, but only a mere recommendation to abstain from the enforce ment of that detestable principle, on the ground of some unne. cesaary.assumption of responsibility, and the risks too likely to be incurred ; so that, in effect no remonstrance was attempted on the violation of national rights._[ (f ere the Niltble Earl com mented on the Inclosure No. 64 —The interference was every where put upon the principle of expediency-a principle so in. consistent with the honour and interests of the country, that if any , 'representatiOns to the country were made, the Noble Earl ought, for the honour of his country and the honour of his own Adniinistration, not to refuse inch - Papers to the house. Re t'erring to a passage in the speech of the King of France, the Noble Earl condemned the monarchical principle as displayed in all its odious extent. Re trusted to GOD, finally, that the French people would not !Airport the Sovereigns in the present war, but that they would remember their honour and interests, till the evils which were hatched by the .plotters of an iniqui tJimattaek should recoil on themselves, and consign them to the odium of oblivion. Such were the assurances on which the Noble Earl appeared to reply ; but if that Noble Earl had bet ter grounds, he wished him to produce them. The Earl of LIVERPOOL. complained, that under pre take of asking for information, and etecording to his notice, moving for additional Papers, the Noble Earl had made a speech, in which he had entered into some of the most impor. taht parts of the great question which it was understood was to be thscie;sed on another day. Ile felt himself therefore placed. in an embarrassing situation. lie must say, however, that the Noble Earl had given a very unfair representation of the first part of 'the negociations at Verona, when he had inferred from the qUestions put by the French Plenipotentiary that there had been previous conferences, in which the principle of non-inter ferenee had been discussed, and had asked whether the docu- ments relative to those conferences would be produced. The ecamiunications on that subject were far anterior, and the view of his Majesty's Oovernment had been clearly explained in the State P.lner issued by a Noble Marquis, now no more, in May, 1620, The Noble Earl then said, that it was strange . that we should have communicated to France ell that paseed, between us and Spain, whilst France communicated nothing to us in return. But the Government of this country made no mystery its intentions with respect to Spain. It had nothing which it would shrink reen avow Inez. The question ofinterference had not originally been raised by France, but by a Paper published in 11320 by the Emperor or Rusiaia, and addressed to all the European Powers. It wee that document, anti not any step on the part of France, which had called fur the first expression et the sentiments of this country. She held no mysterious course, lent her proceedings were in little matter of secrecy, that there was nu stip which his ;Majesty's Government took relatively to Spain,. that was 110 t communicated, not only to France, but to all the other .Mowers. They did not anticipate, however, that the uti airs of Spairewoule become tile prominent abject or discussion at Verona. The Noble Earl thought it extraordinary that his Noble Friend should not, on the first starting. of the question of armed interference in the concerns or Spent, have made a stronger remonstrance than he had done. Out he contended that the very first paragraph of his Noble Feiend's note contained as strong a renionstrence as could .be Made. It mug also be recollected, that in the questions sub mitted by France to' the Congress, there was not one word about interference by force of arms. All the cases put were • 'defensive a nd 'Conditional., It might justly be said that the measure of 'animadverting and withdrawing the Allied Mini sters from Madrid, was an improper One, but yet it was neither armed . interference nor war; and it their Lordships took this view of the subject, they would find that his Noble Friend had alluded to the principles even mare than he was called upon to . do by the occasion. The Noble Earl had asked to know what • had taken piece in the conferences which had preceded the pre sentation of the' theee questions by the French Plenipotentiary. 'The fact was, that those queetions bad been pill in the very first conferenceeand when.his , Noble Friend had objected to the principle of interference, it was nut to the interference of war, for it was not then thought of, but to that which threatened to withdraw the Allied Ministers from Spain. His Noble Friend had expressly stated in his Note, that even to animadvert on the internal transactions or ind ependent Siates ' was inconsistent With the principles on which his .Majesty had always acted to wards other nations: Here then was a protest made, not only against interference by force of arms, since it was not andel pated, but against mere animadvereion on the internal transac tions of Spain. The noble Lord had been put in poseession of the fullest information upon all subjects, and he (Lord Liverpool) wait ready to meet him on the question, that • every thing had been done which could and ought to be done, with respect to principle. The Noble Lord then charged his Majesty's Minister's with having said that they had re ceived and trusted the assurances given by France of her pacific intentions tip to the latest period. France had cer tainly said throughout that she was desirious of peace if it could be rendered consistent with her honour ; but that be had placed too much faith on these assuranees, was disproved by the very words whichhe had used on the first day of the Session. He had then said that the door of negotiation was not completely Closed, which showed that the hope which he entertained was but very slender, though he thought it the duty of a British Minister in so important a question as the preservation of peace, to catch . even at a feather. It would be seen in the Dispatch from -Sir Charles Stuart, that even after the Speech of the King of Venice bad been made, a disposition to modify some of its declarations had been shown, and the French Ministers had mated that any system of alteration in the Spanish constitution, to which the King should be a party, whether he originated it or not, would satiety them. This was not a principle of which lie could approve. but it explained away the doctrine laid down in the Speech of the King of Frahee, that every. alteration mum proceed from the Throne. Lie (Lard L.) had never expressed any confidence in the pre eervation of peace,' but he was persuaded to this hour, and he said it without meanhig to throw any blame upon the Spa nittrde, that if any pretext had been given to the French Go vernment, by which they might have eaten their words, peace might men have been preserved. With respect to producing copies of the eormiumications antecedent to the Congress of Verona, lie wished for a few hours to make inquiries before returning an answer, whirls, he trusted, lie should be able to do to-morrow. As to the article of the treaty of 'Aieela-Cha pelle, to which the Noble Earl had alluded, he believed that its strict execution wield generally be more injurious than salutary. By the course which his .Majesty's Government had taken. the °lngress of Verona had broken up wititmeasurea which were itideed justly reprobated, .but which did not neces sarily lead to war ; whereas had the course pointed out by the Noble' Lord been followed, the Allied Powere Would have disetsseed the internal situation of Spain, and the first conse quence would have been a declaration that the King was a pri soner, and in a state or dureese. The Noble Flea concluded by referring to the embarrassing-situation in which he stood,— • Ile thought when he had come, that he shotild have nothing to do but to answer questions with respect to the production of certain papers, which lie had been forced into the discussion of the inain subject. Lord 1101.1. AND thought it extraordinary that the Noble Earl who had just sat down should complain of the course adopted by his Noble Friend (Earl Grey) in omitting to give notice of the questions: lie was alien to ask, and entering into a variety of observations, When he had hinerelf, a few days ago, come down with a long speech and a multitude of commons upon papers which were - not . theiebefore the House. It was a curious mode of teasoning ets say that there was Anything un fair in asking question;{ rexpoting papers which were in his own office, and to compin'Of being taken by surprise on a sub j ect with which Ite 'Must be presumed to be so well acquainted. The Noble • tioici did itntaceuli to deal out to others the same measure of jtisidee that 'fie was anxious to obtain for him self. After what hail already passed he was not willing to anticipate the discussion which muts shortly take place, but lie could MA help stating that the answers of the Noble Earl to the questio4 of his Noble Friend were quite unsa tisfactory. His Noble Friend had , first asked how- it hap pened that the reciprocity, as the Irishman, once expressed it, was all upon one side ? The Noble Earl had said that they let all Europe know their sentiments, and not France alone, but the manner in which they proceeded exhibited the wildest and most impeacticable policy that ever was adopted by any man in power. With respect to the remonstrance, as it was called, of the Noble Duke, he found many observations against the expediencyeaf asserting the principle ofinterfereneeVith the internal affairs of Spain, but it did not contain a single word in condemnation of the prtnciple. Ile would say, without compli ment, that whenever he differed from the Noble Duke, he did so with pain and humiliation, but - it was impossible not to ob aerve and- disapprove of the fact, that all the anxiety .and ten dereess expressed in the note was directed to those who. were about to commit the crime,. and never once applied to the un fortunate persons against whom the crime was meditated. - Was this the way to interfere for the protection of an independent state? Was this the way to oppose the commission of one of the most horrible crimes that power could commit against the law of nations and common rights of mankind? He would put a case to illustrate this ? It was often their duty to consider the affaira of Ireland, and last year the brother of the Noble,Dnlte had in formed them of the state of that unfortunate country, and the necessity of arming him with additional power* to meet the dif lied-hies of his situation. There were many individuals, but none he hoped in that House, who were always on the look out for charges against the Priesthood of the Roman Catholic Church. Supposing then that the starving Irish were to enter into a con spiracy to attack some neighbouring 'Squire, to burn his pro perty, and to attack his life ! Suppose that the Priest, aware of their intentions, should content himself with requesting that they would do .no such thing, adding, that they would in cur a great responsibility, and be exposed to great obloquy if they persisted. What would their Lordships say of such a priest? 'Would they not say, that though lie pretended to . be an adviser, he was as . ►great a rebel and incendiary as any of them in his heart? The Noble Lord had said, that the intention of interference was not avowed. Was that the defence of Minis ters ? Did they mean to say, that, after the Russian Note, they believed that the three questions were put by France in con templation of an aggression on the part of Spain ? Were ties)/ so innocent ? He was bound to take their words if they ' said so, and he would give them joy of the avowal; but he , hoped that - the Government of this country would not be en trusted to men,. let them be ever so honest, who were no better judges of the dishonesty of other men. He should not dwell upon any other .points, but would advert to the answer given to the question of his Noble Friend as to the existence of any sti pulations to prevent the union of the Crowne of France and Spain. The Noble Lord had said there could be no doubt that all the treaties in which he was concerned for the last seven or eight, years had proceeded from this principle, but all those treaties were founded upon what was called by some the doc trine of Legitimacy, but what the honest English called the doctrthe of divine right, and the principles of French law, which went to place the Crown of France in the event of the detth of the Dukes of Angoulemc and Bordeaux on the head of Ferdinand VII. It never could be the interest of Europe, and particularly not of Great Britain, that the Crowns of France and Spain should ever be united ; but he thought it still pos sible that negociation might obtain a pledge upon that subject, from Spain at least. His Lordship concluded with giving no tice.of his intention to submit the following motions, on a fu ture day : . " Ist. For Copies of the Austrian, Russian, • and Prussian answers to the three questions proposed by France." The Earl of LIVERPOOL said that he must oppos& that motion. " 2d. For Copies of all written Communications forwarded by Great -Britain , or her Ambassadors to the Allied Powers since 1820, disapproving of interference in the internal concerns of Spain." The Earl of LIVERPOOL declared himself ready to pro duce them to-Morrow. " 3. Fur Copies of .all Communications or Dispatches from Spain to England, or to her Ambassador at Madrid, in which she charged France with having fomented discoid and division in Spain by means of money or otherwise. " 4. For Copies of all Dispatches from our Government to M. Chateaubromd, and by him communicated through the French Ambassador, at Madrid, to the Spanish Government, and particularly that of February last, which was read by Ge neral Lagarde, to his Most Catholic Majesty." • • The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that if the Noble Lord would carefully read : over the livers hid upon the table by his Noble Friend, .they would find that in the notes which he had transmitted to Government there was no ground for the tone •of censure which they had assumed. They would find; not only that lie had protested against the commencement of hostilities against Spain, but that he had (in Inclosure No. 6) stated it as his Majesty's opinion, " that to animadvert upon the internal transactions of an independent State, Apilosi such transactions affect the essential interests of his Msjesty's sub jects, is inconsistent with those principles on which his .Ma jesty hes invariably acted on all questions .relating to the inter. nal concerns of other countries," eee. ..Now he would ask how he, could possibly . use stronger language than this ? he objected, not only to hostile interference, but even to any animadversion upon the affairs of 4aain. . , . . Lord ELLENBOROCGII_ gave notice that he,would, on Thursday next, bring forward a motion which wiiiild give their Lordships an opportunity of expresiing their opinions upon the question. • - • , . . . . . The Alarquis of. LANSDOWN begged to ask the Noble Earl (Liverpool) whether any commumcation had been made' to the Mike at Wellington by Mr. Secretary Canning in an. swer to his dispatch of the 22d.October, inclosing the three questions proposed by the French Ministers, between the.3lst October, .when it was received here, and the dispatch of the Noble Duke, dated' Dec. O. His reason for asking thisluestion was,because it was matter of surprise that 'asilence of live weeka should elapse ontbe part of our Government, after heving re-, ceived a communication which, whatever might be thought of it here; was sufficient to electrilynny other Government. The next question which he had to ask was, whether any and what communications had been made to the Duke of NVellington, be:. tween his dispatch of October the 30th and that of November 22d ? lit the former dispatch the Noble Duke professed entire ignorance of the nature of affairs then pending between France and Spain, and Upon that ground declined giving any decided' opinion upon the subject of the quarrel. In his subsequent note, the Noble Duke seemed to have got rid of his igno rance, and to have become tio perfectly . master of the sub ject, ns to be able to pronounce an opinion, and advise upon the ceurse which it would be most advisable to ,persue.— The object of Ids question was to ascertain the nature of the information which had been communicated to the Noble Duke. He. had always entertained the highest opinion of the - Noble Duke's talents and genius, yet still lie was bound to consider that his sources of information were human, and not magical. It was not his intention to press for answers' to these questions before to-rnorroiv. • - Lord ELLENBOROUGH suggested the propriety of lay ing upon the table.all papers in which , France had disowned all views of personal aggrandisement in her interference with Spain ; and also all documents in which' that Power (France) had promised to respect the dominions of his Most Faithful Majesty the King of Portugal.—Adjourned. HOVSE OF COMMONS. The Order for the Call of the House having been discharged, the Gallery was opened at four o'clock, and the House was then occupied in receiving Petitions. The confusion caused: by the crowd rushing into the Gallery rendered the proceeding a first inaudible. . MISCELLANEOUS. Mr. DUNDAS presented a petition from Edinburgh,pray.. _ng for certain provisions in the Bill for altering the gimes on S..:otch Spirits.—Laid on the table. • • • Mr. WODEHOUSE moved for certain returns of the num ber of bushels of Malt upon which Duty had been paid during the last year.—Ordered. • Mr. INIARRVArf prefiented a petition from the Island of Trinidad, camplatnins of distress.—Ordered to be printed. General OASCON NE gave notice that on Thursday the 24th, be should naive an address to the Hotise upon the sub lect of Officers upon Half-pay residing in Ireland being paid in rish currency. Colonel O'NEIL presented a petition front the Merchants and Ship-owners of Belfait against the Stranraer Harbour Bill. Ordered to lie on the table; and to be *lilted. CATHOLIC PETITIONS. Petitons were presented against the CathOlic Claims, from the Dean and Chapter 'of Peterborough ; from the Archdea. conries Of Wells, Taunton, and Bath from the Clergy of the Cathedral Churc'h of Winchester ' from the CorpoTation of Dublin ; from the City of Oxford ; from the Areluleaconry of Colchester; front the Arehdeaconry of Essex.; from the Arch deaconry of M iddleesx ; from the Clergy of the Diocese of Gloucester • from the Archdeaconry and Clergy of Hereford; from the A'relideaconry of Northumberland ; from. the several Parishes in the City of - Bristol ; from the Deanery of Car. marthen ; from the Deanery of Litchfield ; from the Arch deceonry of Stafford ; from several Parishes in . the county of Armagh ; from the County of Down ; from the Archdeacon and Clergy of Coventry; from the Maydr and Corporation and Burgesses of Colchester; and from the - Inhabitants of Not. tinglient, • . Mr. Secretary PEEL presented a similar Petition from the Chancellor, Musters, and Scholars of the University of Ox ford,,stating their alarm at the Bill about to be introduced to the House.—The Petition havin4 been read, Sir J. NEWPORT expressed his satisfaction that this body had now given credit for honesty of intention to those who op- posed them upon this question. it was not exactly in the to lerant spirit for which they . were remarikable ; and the spirit I which they had usually evinced was any thing but consistent with their former conduct upon the accession of the House of .Hanover to the Throne of these realms. He was, however, glad to see this improvement in the feeling. of the University, and hoped it would eventually extend itself to the general question which the petition concerned. The Petition was ordered to be printed. Sir T. LETHBRIDGE rose to present a petition which had been placed in hislimids froro.an intlividual. r named Harcourt. Lees. He stated that he had no acquaintance with the peti. • tioner, but that the petition contained statements which he re gretted had not. been before in the possession of the House, since he understood it to be the intention of a Right Iron. Gentleman opposite to move that night for leave to bring in a Bill for removing the restrictions under which Roman Catho; lies were placed by the laws of this country. .It prayed that the house would reject such a Bill, as being dangerous to the peace and existence of the country. lie would not read the whole of the petition to the, House as it was very long.—(A laugh.)—Neither could he 'answer for the truth of the allega tions which it contained, becanSe lie was not acquainted with the basis on which some of them rested. As far, however, as he .could understand the conclusions and -the prayers of the petition, they appeared to him to be very reasonable. It touched strongly upon the religious parts of the question, which he conceived to be the essential part, and upon which all - the other parts were founded. lie knew that Hon. Gentleman who advocated the other side of the ,question always kept that part of it out of view ; but this, he contended was an unfair way of discussingit. The petition stated that a Catholic con spiracy had been entered into •in Ireland to establish the Ca tholic religion. This had been proved by . the confession of persons,about to stiffer an ignominious punishment, from the sentence of the law. This had been borne out fly the Right Hon: the Attorney-General for Ireland in November last at the trial of the Ribbomnen in Ireland, when it was proved that the object of the conspiracy was to overthrow the British Con stitution, and to murder all the Protestants. It stated one ob ject of the conspiracy to be to make Popish Priests the re turning officers at elections-4A laugh.)—lle saw nothing like a joke in thii—(l4aughter)—he thought it a very seriousmatter. Ile hoped this was not the way that those who talked of reform were desirous of reforming that House. The petition also prayed that the House would investigate the inquisitorial acts of the Catholic monasteries, nunneries, and Jesuitical establish , ments- in Ireland. The Hon. Baronet expressed his concur rence in the sentiments contained in the petition as to the dangerous nature of the Catholic doctrines. He also agreed with an Hon. Member who spoke upon the subject the other night, that no Cabinet ought to allow this to be an open ques tion. It was understood that the object of the Government of Ireland was conciliation. Was it conciliation to put the lives and properties of the Protestant population in the danger whicit would result from a removal of the laws which protected them against these dangers ? Ile thought the effect which this system had already produced, was to be seen in the state in which Ire- land now Mr. WHITE stated his belief that not one allegation of the petition was founded in truth. Ile could speak from his own knowledge of the country and, of the people of Ireland ; and he only wished that lion. Members knew them as well as he did. The Catholic population .of Ireland would not then be calumniated as they were. This was not a Catholic cause, but the cause of the empire. He repeated, that,if the Hon. Mem ber knew the parties who suffered these deprivations, he would. not have said what he had done; he would not so cruelly ma lign a body of people who discharged their duty to the empire its they did. The petition was ordered to be printed. Similar petitions were presented from the town of Newcastle under-Lyme, from the Archdeaconry of Berks, and from the Parish of Hatfield. Mr. COKE presented a petition, signed by fifty-five of the Clergy of the Diocese of Norwich, praying that the Roman Catholics might be relieved frem the disabilities under which they had so long laboured. The petition was then.reati by. the Clerk. Sir 131.1RDErr rose, not only to express his satisfaction et a petition which was so hofiourable to the parties from whom it proceeded, but also to state his dissatisfiletion at the . exhibi. tiou of this annual farce of bringing forward the question year tiller year, sowing the seeds of danger, by reviving and fo menting all the oppressive passiona, and feelings of violated rights, which were connected with its agitation; and that par; ticularly since they had beard, only two nights ago, from one who was formerlY the eloquent advocate of the Ca tholics, now Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, that he believed there was no chance of Carrying the question. in their favour. Thus it appeared, that after all the exertions be had made in the c.iuse, he had only selected it as a theMe for its eloquence, as a means of eatchtng a little fleeting popula rity. And now the subject was agaiwto be brought forward to hold up to the people of Ireland all their wrongs and injuries, painted by the eloquence of the Right lion, Gentleman in the brightest hues, to be followed by the assurance that they must have no hope of redress ;,and this, too, coming frem, a Minis. ter of the country. it !would be far better. to tell them at once that all their hopes were extinguished, and that they were never to exPect a restoration of their just rights. If the Right Hon. Gentleman had always known that there was no chance of success, why did he proceed in this course ? why were these unfortunate people so long to feel the pangs of hope deferred, to end at last in despair confirmed ? But the Right Hon. Gen tleman had said mere than that —he had stated it to be his opi nion that no, Administration Could ever be found Whose mein; bets could be' brought to agree upon this measure, which, , as , he believed, was absolutely necessary: to the peace and safety. of the country. They had heard from the Right Honourable Gentleman that he was ready to give his place, if by doing that he could accomplish the object for which he had-so zea lously and so eloquently pleaded. But it appeared to him that the manner in which he had taken place was a compromise of that object. But there had been instances of Administrations who agreed upon this question.—(lf ear, hear, ft mirth e Treasury Benches.)—There was the Administration of Mr:Fox.—((:heers of dissent from the Treasury Benches.) —Undoubtedly, there was at least a majority in the Cabinet at that time in favour of the questiOn. •-'They brought in a measure in its favour."--(Hette! They could not certainly curry it because they found deserters in a quarter where the present GovernMent need not fear . it..-= 411 the miseries of Ireland had arisen from the impotent and scandalous injustice of her GOvernment, and. she was now in a-state worse than had ever before been known. The other night, the first Law Officer of diet Government was basely deserted in a case where he had endeavoured to make the law effective to the best of his judgment and conscience. And the reason assigned by the Right Honourable the. Secretary was, that he would not do justice to either party, beeause he was afraid of giving a triumph to one of them. He object ed altogether to exelefo informations„ but if, there was, ever a case in which cirettinatances wool d justify one, it ap peared to be the one In question. With the body who were concerned in that transaction, the question of the Catholic»; was not a matter of religion, it was not a political consideration which made them hostile. It was a calculation .of arithmetic. They held all the places and the emeihnnents of the Govern ment, anti they were determined not to let in the larger part of the population to share them ; ile contended that no man :could honestly feel alarth at the consequences ofearrying this measure. Tbere was no lohipi , a fear of a Catholic league of Sovereigns. That triumvirate the Pope, the Devil, and the Pretender, had no longer- any terrors.—(A laugb.)— The Pope, he, believed, was now as harmless as any . old Lady in Christendom.-_(A laugh.)---There was one Hon. Baronet, the Member for: Soinersetshire, who seemed indeed. to have a fear of the Jesuits of Ireland. lie might as well wish for the removal of thelaws against witchcraft ; for they had heard lately of direeOld women trying to draw blood from an other, to take away her charms, as they termed it—and this was in Somersetshire too.--(Loud laughter.)—Did the Right lion; Member fur Oxford fear any thing from the power of the Pope ? He was sure that the Right Honourable Gen tleman's mind was too enlightened ; and if be could see the sentiments of his soul he knew that lie could not entertain the slightest alarm upon that ground. Ile would be wil. ling to put it to him upon his honour, and leave the question to be decided by his answer. If then, there was no danger in granting these concessions, was there not danger in leaving the people of Ireland in such a situation as that in which they were now placed ? After haying been taught the extent of their op pressions and their wrongs by the glowing colours in which they had been held up to them by the Right lion. Gentleman, he now came forward to undeceive them, and to tell them that the Government would not relax one iota of the system of op pression which had b e en so long exercised. England could never be a prosperous country while Ireland was divided and miserable. With this system Ireland could not be otherwise. They had now a Lord Lieutenant who was disposed, if he had the power, to protect the Catholics and administer equal laws, and lie was a much more rare bird than a black swan. And for the. Attorney-General, that he was pretty generally con sidered, in the Cabinet, as a black sheep. Their efforts had not been supported when directed to remedy these abuses, and they could not be effectual under such a divided Govern ment. What, then, was to be thought of a Cabinet who thus compromised all public dangers and qiiestions of great public importance, in order to retain place ? The evils of Ireland might go on--the balance of Power' in Europe might be destroyed—but arrengements must be made for keeping the seats which they had secured. He had the satis faction of believing that there was in this country tispirit which was independent of, and superior to, its errors of Government, whether fundamental or administrative, and by which it would eventually struggle through all its difficulties. Holding this opinion, he. should now protest against the annually repeated fsrce which was to be played off that night, and not become a party to it. The Hon. Baronet concluded by reading the following extract from a speech of Mr. Plunkett's, delivered in 1813, upon the Catholic question, condemning the divisions which existed in the Cabinet at that time with regard to it : " But how can any honest. mind be reconciled to the ambi guity in which the Cabinet has concealed itself from public view on this great national question—or with what justice can .they complain of the madnese arising out of this fever of their own crenting This Is nPsubject of compro mise—either the claiM is forbidden by some imperious principle, eoo,eacred to be tampered with, or it is enjoined by a law of reason and justiee, which it iS'oppreSeion to resist. - In ordi nary cases, it sounds well to say, that a question is left to the unbiassed sense of Parliament and the people; but that a mea sure of vital importance, which has been discussed again and again by all his Majesty's Ministers, should be left to work its own way, •and suffered to drift along the' tide of Par liamentary or popular opinion, seems difficult to understand. . . . . When it is known that they all have considered it deeply, and formed their opinions decidedly, in direct opposi tion to each other, that .after this they" should consult in the tame Cabinet, and sit on the same Bench, professing a de eided opinion in point of theory, and a strict neutrality in point of practice. . . One half of the King's Ministers encouraging them to seek without enabling them to obtain ; the other half, suhtlivided, some holding out an ambiguous hope, others announcing a never-ending despair. I ask, is this a state in which the Government has a right to leave it? Some master -piece- of imperial policy must be unfolded, something far re moved frpm the suspicion of unworthy compromise of principle fur power, to reconcile the feelings of the intelligent "public, or uphold a rational confidence in the honesty or seriousness of the G-overninente". The Hon. Baronet, after reading this extract, sat Gown amidst loud and long continued cheers. Lord NUGENT said, that however lie might agree in some of the sentiments expressed by his Hon. Friend, he had heard with the greatest surprise what had fallen from hint at the con clusion of his sfiecch. He should certainly not follow the ex ample of abandoning the Catholics because Ministers did not honestly support the cause. - Mr. Secretary CANNING rose, and said that as he wished to contradict what had fallen from the Honourable Baronet iii tote, he wished to do so simply, and at once.—(Cries of— Go on.") Lord NUGENT proceeded after the calls on Mr. Canning had subsided. He did not wish to stand between the Right Hen. Gentleman and the House, but he was anxious to take the ettrliest opportunity of refusing his concurrence in what he conceived to IJC so highly injurious to the cause which he had always advocated. So long as it was brought on, he was deter mined to give it what feeble support was in his power. Mr. Secretary CANNING craved pardon of the Noble Lord and the House for having interrupted him in his observations. But he was anxious to put forward his unqualified contradic tion of the charges which had been made agains4im. He un derstood the Hon. Baronet to have said that he (ar. Canning) had held out that ; the Catholic cause was hopeless. He ha said no such thing; he thought no such thing. lie thought the cause hopeless in the present state of the country. He thought it hopeless to expect the forming of an Administration to agree upon this measure, and also upon the measures necessary to carry on the public business. Front this, his opinion, some might have erroneously supposed he.. had stated the cause to be altogether hopeless. He believed the question would make its way progressively unless Government united against it. He feared, indeed, that the question had almost received its death-blow from the secession which had been threatened from the opposite side; but in that case the blame lay upoir the seceders. He had done his best to promote the cause whether he was in or out of office. Ile had had the satisfaction of pro posing a Resolution on the subject, which for the first time sad been ;carried' in that House. Last year he had brought for ward and advocated a partial 'question on the subject, which had actually passed that House. Under these circumstances he did not despair of the question, if it were fairly supported. There was no man in that House, whatever might be his Roll- , tics, 'to whom he would not-give his support on this question, thus differing from the sentiments of the lion. Baronet. The Baronet had certainly,. in his opinion, diminished the chance of success ; and although he would vote for the expected Moe tion of his Right Hon. Friend, he would almost advise him not to bring it forward. Mr. TIERNEY assured the House he was no party to any such a compact of secession as had been hinted at by the Right Honourable Secretary. Let 'who would .bring forward • the question lie would support it. Nothing should ever induce ' him to swerve from 'supporting a measure which be thought essential to the interest of the country. In the general reason. ing of the Hon. Baronet he perfectly agreed : and history and posterity would decide who it was that had destroyed the hopes of the Catholics. He thought it was a mockery to go on year after year advocating a case admitted to be hopeless. His nu spresston was the same as that of the Honourable Baronet, with repect to the language held some time since by the Right Hon. Gentleman. Ile certainly understood him to say that the cause would be hopeless until an Administration should be found en tirely friendly to the question. Ile (Mr. Tierney) :thought it never could be carried' unless by such a Government. The present was not a new question, it was familiar to-the House ever since the. Year 1805 s when it was brought forward ley Mr. VOL Was there,' he would ask, any chance of its succeeding, iii another place without Government support? How stood the Catholic Question when the Right Hon. Gentleman brought forward his partial measure?' A new Reign had commenced. He wished to-say nothing at ell disrespectful to the memory of our late revered Sovereign, but it was known that there was such a hias in-his mind against this question that It was under stood he would exercise his prerogative, and refuse the Royal Assent to any-measure on the subject which might be presented to him by both Houses of Parliament. This more than .410-, lied any man in holding office without pledging himself to this question. Now, we had a new Sovereign, whose mind was, at least, open to conviction on the subject, 'and whose opinion, it was believed, were more friendly than adverse to it. Vie Right lion. Secretary had long declared his determination to support: this question : and no man admired more than he (Mr. T.) did the talents of that Right lion. Gentleman, or snore applauded the exertion of them in favour of the Catholic cause. And with re gard to the Attorney-General for Ireland (if, indeed, after what had passed he was still Attorney-General for Ireland)—(A laugh) unquestionably no man had shewn more zeal upon' the subject; but the misfortune was, that no mairliad the firmness to hold to the tmeation to keep out of office : for on entering office the question was substantially dropped. He had no doubt that., considering the paucity of talent among those who opposed the weestion, firmness in principle, on this point, would ensure the question ultimate success. Was there any thing in Lord Liver pool, or in a certain great Lawer, to induce a belief that pub. lic.considerations alone would weigh with them on the question of retaining or abandoning office ? And as for the Right Hon. Secretary himself, slid he suppose that they would have receiv ed him into office unless they wanted him ? Did lie suppose that they brought hint into the Cabinet from motives of.affec don ? Indeed somethiel had taken place . with regard to these eminent persons, which reminded him of the humble, but pas toral language-- . • . . " So sweetly she bade me adieu, She 'almost bade me return." (A laugh.)...-lie feared too there was a knot of Gentlemen who advocated this question, by their numbers (to lay. nothing of their eloquence), who had without stipulation of any kind given themselves up to the majority of that House. Had the supporters of the question been firm throughout, he hail no doubt that the principle of the measure would have been gain. ed, ere this, and that all which would now remain to be done would be to consider the details. Why, indeed, the Right Hon. Gentiemanproposed bringing on the question this veer, he really could not comprehend. Ile (Mr: 'l'.) had reskedinin this year, whether there was any, the least understanding on the subject, when he entered office. The least hint that there was would- have Satisfied him ; but to his (Mr. T.'s) sorrow and mortification lie fourid that office was the only substan tial thing he hail, gained upon the occasion. If the Right Honourable Gehtleman tailed in his motion, the Catholics would see how their interests had been trifled with. He, how ever, should always vote for the question ; and if the Right lion. Gentleman brought it on, and God gave hint (Mr. I'.) strength to sit out the debate, he would stop to divide with him, though he really thought the bringing it on would not do any good. As for the Right lion. Secretary for the Home De partment, he believel his opposition to the subject to be so steady, so firm, and so manly, that he had no doubt he would never compromise his principles. The Government, he was satisfied, was hostilelo the Catholics: It had no objection to eloquent men who advoCated tbe cause taking office under it, Government cared not a farthing for theiteeloquence, so long as they had not the power to decide the question. Under all the circumstances, he hoped the Right,Hon. Gentleman would take a discreet course. it e presumed to offer no advice. The Right Hon. Gentleman himself must be the best judge. he had before said; if the question were brought on,-he would suppers it to the last moment; hut if the question were lost, he declared before-hand that the odium could not attach to his side of the House. lf, on taking office, the Right Hon. Gentle. man had any reason to count upon an accession of votes in another place, he (Mr. T.) shotdd be perfectly satisfied. If not, the advantage alreadY gained was likely to be host. A-new Parliament might not be so favourable to the Catholics as the present; and the Right Honourable Gentleman was respon sible to those in whose- confidence he was, for the failure, of their interests. In conclusion, he would repeat that, if the question were lest, •it would be because some Gentlemen were too desirous to obtain office. Once more he declared his readiness to 4upport the question ; and he begged to know. the 'determination of the Right Honourable Gentleman as - to bringing it on.' Mr. WYNN hoped the House would indulge him with a few not mean wordstnt l hi r a m a b a n t i It : I 1 , e ao tl t laeannntnst lw.ersWneittheacheahrargegeofeathmeeßfimghmt Itthoenoßuraiglihlte I yThthaatt o em ffic a e n h w a i d th be t e h n e v acc ery ep s t . ed nrat upon gme a e. co l in v p i r th on r i e i gal,l G se i l however, to the charge itself he must observe, that any union on this subject must have included union upon that of Parlia mentary Reform. When he (Mr. Wynn) entered ' office he s i t m ip p l i t t la rt t i i justice had s beenh should be r b fn e nn di distributed t l e i t e l eot i enw n ease,sals t rws h iet, : ,, t ,uni t l ta c i t oy i r u f vi n it - Ittio stipulated for an attention to the affairs of Ireland, and parti eutrylar: rea son why the acceptance of office by one who supported the question should be considered as an abandonment of it.— Those, however, who were apt to suspect the motives of others were generally able to find something in their own minds to the suspicion. Whether he was in or out of office he should support the qoestion. Mr. BENNET said he should explain . why he intended, upon this question to take up his bat and leave the Ilouse.e.- Ile had hitherto supported the Right Honourable Gentleman, because he believed that he advocated the cause with sincerity. He now thought the affair was a perfect trick ; a what in fami liar language was called a humbug. It was not the Right lion. Gentleman coming down to that House with honied words, and 1 fine sentences which would convince him of his sincerity. Ile did not believe the Right Honourable Gentleman to be sin cere. lie had heard the Right Honourable Gentleman make the very speech alluded to by the Hon. Baronet; and yet he now saw him sitting on the Treasury Benches, acting with a Govern ment hostile to the . question. In the face of Right Hon. doubt the Irish Gentleman he told him he did not believe him to be sincere.-- He should not put himself into the cart with such a set of come dians. He would not lend himself to such a trick. Ile had n ° it honestly. But the people of Ireland had just cause to com pwlaairs t w o it f h ti r t e is al S p ess am ion h al e m spo oo k o e n o m f o i s ii •ed m, by the Right Ilouourable Gentlemen who opposed this questioniiigo:li:necoijosrediii Gentleman and others of his stamp. He hail often been d lighted at the eloquence of the Right Ilon. Gentleman, and it compelled to do. Mr.. Secretary PEEL said that somasethileintghtilsiafdmill:rileintitiiintfllsmenv: the Hon. Baronet which rendered it necessary trouble the House with a few observations. Belied insinuated a doubt as to the sincerity of the Opposition to this question. — He (Mr. P.) declared that the. Opposition was as sincere he the advocacy. If the Hon. Baronet advocated toleration, le surely would tolerate the diflirence of opinion which he met in his adversaries, . The opinkmsof the Hon. Baronet, as he had expressed them, were the strongest proofs of intollerancae: The Hon. Baronet had no right to arrogate to himself ans,ect, elusive propriety of opinion. The Hon. Baronet hd a the ! whether he (Mr. P.) was apprehensive of wouldretender or tie devil ; just as if an answer to that question furnish i Hon. Baronet with the grounds of his opposition.--(11e"; If his Right Honourable Friend should press the clues t g',„id should persist in giving it his decided opposition ; a nd " state the grounds of it; but until then let the lion. crone.,,, keep to huuself his doubts of the sincerity of othfrm froth e (Mr. P.) would rather consent to his eternal exclieet .111.0 n! office than consent to the slightest compromise of his t x mi, t i_n2 on this question.—(Cheers.)—lle had never deviatt f ie t t : . _'" principle upon it. He cared not for the opinions of ott .. this he, so long as lie remained ueconvincet , oistoace cailitelaardtiotiuyap;hpliiaesalarnadleateathhdeetoympeonuupynapleitsilnionutladit.b_e unanimouswheerA. per question,iniftos,tolounriltl warrant daneatittehethlelHonn.nß. airotatnnent-rest pressly claimed the privilege of acting as he thottli In is Wel• this question. And, in the appointment,if the Atarqn , foe. leaky to the office of Lord-Lieutenant, and of such charges. When he (Mr. P.) had ent:ctell°l°4Brcogifrliesenettal_ettn-hienf,r°sielEin: Friend near him (Mr. Wynn, we believe) he hail foun f th e , stacle ,to co.opi;ration with a view to the best l ir ~ ll' stercst o under three different Lord-Lieutenants, and he ee la_ 1 missy dently defy any imputation of impartial justice being p ue had brought against his administration during that ri 1 P e a ;a n & that community. He had had the honour to hold thiisitsgin Ireland never heard of such an imputation. Ile never con eve any his feelings . towards the Catholics of Ireland other than their wannest friends could desire, the existing laws. He knew his conduct wasasto luiscon. liable] to cilarge struction, and that it had rendered hint open to the . lie of his his being the advocate of a wkked Orange Ryst_ell'.., b ay of lived,' however, that the well-informed —the gener i r o utat iao the Roman Catholics would not bring suc h an tie jled th e against him.-....(Hear, hear o—lle0 —Ile should not ha_N o . e s _ ~., „ o o House haul he not felt himself called upon to d ifo o n. u-b oo ert, a o n f d h nn on e ou ne r intwconnseeqxputeeancaeinnofa ittl.iheierhem. b e s t i r f it , f u t c h n e from • his Right Hon. Friend . to On - I Gentleman, veyany personal reflection upon the Bight I .on was so da is- Ile had said that his own opinion on the i '-ueltztlebate igloo the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman, ed, that he would almost take the issue of the 0 h i s s eicef Sir F. BURDETT explained. lie believing danger would arise front the coil question. t hlid n °t ' Barone t Mr. Secretary PEEI. said that the lion. to id i ess , bu only said that the apprehension of daneer WAS tt ien ui I n dud not sip also that those who said they had sucht'an aPPt e sincerely feel it. to throw an imputation on his Right lion. Frie nu e w h e ther this. • Mr. BROUGHAM said that as the questionewvea _ ?....4cr ies ot " No, no.")--lie was much cheered by ai(' great subject should be given up now an!'or r irregular negative! Mr. NYYNN also explained and disclaimed it.tny this thy , B i g ht (A laugh.)—li'ell, then., as the question was, whether t.o _, t oe Hon. (sentleman should bring it forward or not , 0 Lir roe to Hon. Members had recommended him not to el!) s_ e , oi l l ' l ' g, 0 so protest against any such recommendation. ' r Li Slit isoneurable, did, in almost all which bad fallen from liii Rig 0 , , e co da. Friend (Mr. Tierney), having the worst o 1 their 0f the to fl,'. ° of those who had substantially abandoned tbe! intern iy plain, and question , instead instead of pursuing the man ~ _ - sig h t lion. „ gable opposition which wat.toven to it Ity tne as w ,O_ ha d . neva_ cretary.of State for the Home, Department, ,pu .. ..., d o ppOr taken office to abandon the question substanuanY f t : stion hot it only by words : still he would not have t!le.,! 1 : / i ni ne Pe:, back. The Right Hon. Secretary of State f rn„ __„. ii , Gt partment had opposed the question honestly an a l: l , l 7"a eo n,- . him no one could complain. But it was of i t,g,,' oa . secret t o c o if ; for if, when the question of the Rigl f Polo go itttv State for Foreign Affairs was, whether thisirshsPQrt4. ; honourable exile, if, instead of submitting to t how , r ue ta abroad, he preferred submitting to hard lab °4r 3 I ur n 11 ! ) le even by his own friends, when his fate tlepen et I. _ lerei bb Chancellor Eldon, and when he exhibited the in I,.., oriat ion instance of monstrous truckling , and of political tech " , I rise to declare that that is false." --( lemd e ri° u .1 he had ever heard of— n d sotto i r Mr. Secretary CANNING here interfered, a f 0 Orue 4 ('hair, chair I) ..-- t o Or es . The SPEAKER said it was impossible for bias 00 ale 0 Sir, the feelings of regret he felt, that persons of the . .. T ., Ago) it t l i * e racter of the two lion. Members ehould have been Plat rronina situation so disagreeable. lie felt that he need hnhe to ~, Right Bon. Gentleman (Mr. Can tha t t „ t le order' which he had made use of, was totally , rePurl”aetine, it. .0. convince him of the propriety of immediately ret r H e iman ' 1 Mr. CANNING said that the Right Bon. he • heed t le terference was sufficient to satisfy hint that be Mad r ere tere l i i . ; order of the House. It was sufficient for Ohl : e ' n ' ov ert" hoped, to withdraw the offensive expression—the ': d e' could not recede from. hich 00,/, ..3 The SPEAKER then said, that the duty w go ing 0 ; volved upon him would admit of' u ncompron igc. t he O ni 'rthe no time for consideration he must call wrno nt sae . o ..fie assist him—lt was not fear him to remind tne resen t, on course proper to be taken in such! a s the P as bad b e believed it was well known that such an eatlire ° ' °° used must be recalled without any qualification- — t ry t° .se • fall Mr, Secretary CANNING said he should .beli nn it l', under gh s t lie he d h is a p d leas a ri u g r h e t o t f o the house. -tilaepre :,stlietnin.iustail'ieilsat:pbrnot resignation to, any censure it might inflict u pon Ti of .The SPEAKER, said he must then iroldo re „ wa s the-House subst a nti a lly an d e a et tydy. , 'en, s aid " .sag' The CHANCELLOR of the E.XCH1:(10,1',,,, of h l s° Ls! impossible to entertain a doubt as to the proPriev e o a°" t he gestion which-had fallen front the Chair. l'he re h a }loose' lie no doubt that, with reference to the orders of t t sein e Mn s e an e language in question was disorderly. At di ' sadng -as uag e would ask the lion. and . Learned Gentleman, sP r i' the 1,01, stud Gentleman would to another—(Clieers)--whelheote 111)ietee which fell from him was not highly irritatir+g f i n that ' Learned Gentleman was in the habit. of speaking ... 5 410 011 his f ex)" '. e s to er with great eloquence, and with a strength 0 . :wr itrtl met o, to, liar to himself . stied such terms as had been h, n ot In e ,,ot Right lion. Friend, t et ras of t he s everest relltr_ c iii eter 1 1 . .,oi, addressed to him an a Minister ; for in that eln' w ,perso.:,oo bear every thing : but addressed to him, as it w___, o oo , _„,a he feanxi.he should, a t t h e mome nt, have exPT,.. i l e item r a sentiments in language not very messor e. -- eill'eraet..„,r 'title Learned Gentleman would forfeit nothing lo__„ to eotoe_,,st man, or as a Member of that House, if be i!ri: . l ie tl , o 7 _ l 7 t 'te language which had called forth the (Apses% ha ve int o ' i r ti. the lion. and Learned Gentleman never cm" all 'e t hic !„,,,,, s te convey a personal imputation. They wl f h, intei n li t r a ",eled table feelings ; and under the influence of vi,.'„ c „ n est b language would sometimes escape 'Brut los , he c feel' among them. t titi e fi l e „ than a rt ie . The SPEAKER said, that the obeer „ to e p ,esf lor of the Exchequer led him to -, fear,,7lt was liT a tall difficulty was occasioned by_him.---(Not_ndui.ie„roed Trreessti° ed that the language of the Honourable toi , not o nly L "... R oe; applied to the Right Hon. Secreter,,ws;rersenaltY fol. aril hi public conduct, hut - had , :soean!,' l t,t,le t o WWI wort' Ira such a case it was his (the .Speakstr'ih" s;,agined he certainly should have done so; lino e I