The Sun. — London, England, 1812-04-16 00:00:00

LIIPERIAL PARLI/1111EN7. HOUSE OF PEERS. WEDNESDAY, APRIL 15. MISCELLANEOUS. The Irish Spirits Warehousing Bill went through a Committee, c.nd was reported without zny amend ment. The other Bills on the table ‘kere tor- Warded. kingston, from the Eist India HOuse, pre sented a Copy of the Negociation between his 1\13 7 lesty's Government, and the Diredors. of the' - 4-ist India Company, respecting a renewal of their rx,- clusive,privileges, which was ordered to lie on the table, The Earl of LIVERPOOL moved, That this House do not insist on its Amendrineuts to the Loral Mi litia Bill sent up by the Commons ; and that a-Mes 'Lige be sent to inform the Cominoßs k hert.ot, which was ordered accordingly. Mr. Vansittatf, accompanied by several Mem bers, presented,a Mestrage from - the CornmonS, re questing that the Earl of 'Ross be permitted to at lend the Commiiree of that House, appointed to inquire into the Pribltc Expenditure of Ireland. A Petition was presented by the. Marquis of STAFFORD, from certain Manufaclurers, and others,. engaged lit the making of China Ware, in the Pot teries o f Statford,hiie, against the renewal of the East India C nipany's Charter. Ot - .i•-red to lie on the table. On the iilo`loll of the Etrl of LAUDERDALE, the AQp-r, the Select Committee on the Atfairsof Zttdia Pie ordered to be printed. Uti tir question for the third rending of the Coup ar Jou Bill, a discussion of some length took Lord ERSKINE urged a vatiety of objeeliotrs A gainst the measure, and contended that it militated ..„ a i;ainst the Law of S , otland, as a certain nuinbcrof h ound Burghs, of which Couirar was one, *e.re ! i ound by law not only to erect and keep in repair a Jail for debtors and criminals, but were responsible I ° l- their safe custody--besides,it as provide 1 , that offenders should be committi d Ve. nearest Jail, a. provision . which the Bill would go to (-win leraa ; he could hardly suppose it v,as t lie intention °I their Lordship 7.3 to all •r ihelaw Scotland, its Paints' so essential, through dik: . merituni of r pri vate bill. , . Lord Viscount MELVILLE CU.': thrmea lut es which he conceived necessary, On aCCOLInt of the wretched state of the Jails in tliat part of the Fotintry.. The objections on I he. s ore of its going to 'infringe the law of Scotland, rid not apply. In . 'his instance, a number of , tulie spirited G-ntle tll en had come forwarxl with a subscription (f e eling loe necessity of having a proper and suffici,lit jail) t 0 defray th e expences, and the place proposed for Lhe erection was every way the most eligible and convenient. The Earl of RossLYN spoke at son length in 14t1 ; fort of the'objettiOns c,f his Noble Fiiend (Lord rsiiine) against the The LORD CHANCELLOR expressed 'his opinion, that, atitnitti ng the Law of Se-tland t:' be as his - Noble and Learned Friend -advanced, stathe as far as he had an opportunity ref considering it, did not tend. to alter the la He had opportuni ties of being it:lon:led as to the deplorable toate of Many orthe prisians in Scotland; in One case parti. tcultly which came under , his cognizance, the de fence set up against a' charge ofsuffr.ri :g a - prisoner xo escape, was, that he etfechd it by little more than scratching his head against the cirling The real question was, whether they should give to . the borough of. Coupar a jail or not ; and they should I t - tnetntier, that although they could not do all the good desired, it was incumbent upon them to do•as much as they could. The Earl of LAUDERDALE contended, illatthe -Learned Lord's view of the 13111 was etroneous, he Thought it did not alter the laws; the Bill. .expi'essly bade the Jail of Coupar a County Jail, which, atl-101 . 1 g other points, was a conttavention of the Law of Scotland. -Lord REDEsDALE argued in support of what had fallen from the Noble Lord on the Wookack. After a short explanation from the Earl of LAU. b ERDALE, the question was petty generally callld tor. On putting it, the Bill was ordered to be `read a third time without a division, and was afterwards Passed. Their Lordships then (at seven o'clock) adjourn ed till to-morrow. ROUSE OF COMMONS. WEDNESDAY, APRIL 13. A Message from the Lords announced that their Lordships had agreed to the - Jamaica Intercourse Zit!, and the Chancery Clerks Bill, without any amendments; also to the Dublin Bridge Bill, the Pilchard Bounty Bill, the Thames Navigation 8 , 11, ttid the Renfrew Roads and Bridges Bill, with amendmenis. • Their Lordships also requested the House would oinmunicate Copies of the Third and Fourth Re- Ports of the Select Committee appoit,ted to inquire into the Affairs of the India Company. - On the motion of Mr. STottoEs BOURNE, the first of these Reports Was ordered to be sent to their Lordships. The Messengers were called in and acquainted therewith, and also were direaed to inform their Lordships, that the other part of their Message Would be taken into consideration on Mond;.ty,next. A Message from the Lords also informed the Rouse, that their Lordships do not insist upon the Amendments made by this House in s the Local The Bill for Amending the AEI relating to High• Way Surveyors, W3i read a first time, and ordered • for a second reading on Friday. Mr. CREEVEY poponed his notice of motion (which stood for ta•morrow) respeEting the two Tellerships of the Exchequer, until Thursday the 7th of May. •.• Mr. MELLISH presented a Petition frotn,ceriain Shipwrights and Caulkers of the port of London, .(tAg4inst the building of ships in the ports of This Petition was signed by 2000 persons. It was laid on the table. On the motion of Mr. Ross, the At relating to _ the purpose of moving an instruaion upon ihe*suhi- jea in a CornMittee to-morrow. Mr. HUTCHINSON presented a Petition from the Roman Catholics of Cork, praying to have the disa- i,nposed on them removed. Mr. STANLEY gave notice, that he would on. Monday move for a statement certified by the She riff . of each County in Scotland, of the number of Freeholders in that kingdom, from the 3 Ist Jan. 1784, to he 30th Jan. Sir F. BURDETT rose, to move for an account of :he number of Clerks in the Navy'Office, with their salaries, &c. with a view to put them, by a subsequent motion, on a footing with the Clerks in the Navy Pay Office in the point 01 emolument ; bin upon a suggestion born (be Chancellor of the Exchequer,• that neither 'of the Secretaries of the. Board of Admiralty were present, the Hon. ihro- net postponed his motion Who. morrow. Mr. BRAND postponed his notice of motion re specting Reform, from the 21st to the 28th olApril. Mr. BROUGHAM also . postponed his motio❑ re specting Voting at Elections, to the same day. PUBLIC DEFAULTERS. Sir JAIN NEWPORT rose to bring forward a mo tion respetling the various deficiencies of Public Diloney. It was owinc , to the Public that some ac count should be rendered of what had been done by the Committee of Public Expenditure, on the _ _ subjed of the vaiious defalcations in many of the Public Servants. •In some of the instances, the whole of the monies deficient in winding up ac counts had been recovered, in others they remained open and umettled, and, in resped to some, he fear ed a large proportion of the balanc es were irreco verably lost. Whether the sums were great, or whether they were small, was nothing to the ob je& of his inquiry, for the public had a right to be apprized of the actual State of• the accounts. - In justice to the individuals concerned, it wae.but f a ir to inform the public, whether these - balances were not over-rated by rumour—whether, upon exaaii oatione some of the persons accused might not be exonerated from culpability.: • On all these grounds, he submitted, that in this advanced period of the Parliament, ihe a tblic 'accounts should be com pleted, and the Committee terminate their labows. As guardians - of the public money, the House was bound .to see they were claed . before they resigned an account of their s-ewardship into the hands'of ttreir Cons ituents : The Right Hon. Baronet- then noticed the several defaulters, beginning first w i t h General Delancee, who Was stated to have a balance remaining in his hands Of 97,0001. . He noticed - aiso the deficiency of - Mr. Ste,le, which, to be sure, Was paid up, but, as he understood from an Hon. Baronet behind here - the interest had not been paid. He next etiticed the deficiency of Boyd and Co. and of Mr. .fluot—g3.oooi. Ot this sum he did not know how much had-been recovered, nor whether ,the. pension' was eon! ieued to - that 'person. Th e next was Mr. Villiers, which - transaetion had turned out favourable. There was also 'a sum elf bOOOl. from another person ; and welt respea to Mr. Chinnery no report had yet been made, but rumour had stated the deticienries of that persoti . at .8 4,0001. : Whether that aniouet was correet, or whether it had been over-rated, he di_i trot know, but this case, . and all tire others be had named, ought to be laid betore the House. It - hail been suggested to him, With respect to the ease of Mt. Chinnery, that some persons who were secutities for bin), had taken legal advice as to their re,phnsibility, and that the opinion of professional Gentlemen was, that they were ex onerated in consequence of the Treasury not using due diligence when informed of thesuspicions which attached upon his probity, in order to prevent the defalcation. There was another case which had not come before the House, conneded with Ireland. It respected the Treasurer Of the Board of Works, whose office was extingUidted in 1802. .Tlie.latest accounts which he •had delivered in, wer..i dated the of March, 170, and tittle had been issued to him between the latter period and 1802, the im mense sum of 1,835,000 L of which he had not reudeted any account. He had, to be sure, stated that his accounts were - in a state of preparation, and that by August next one of the years would be ready. Under these circumstances .generally, he thought the House would agree to the motion which he should make— " That it be an instruCtion of tire Committee appointed to inquire into the Plailie E x penditure, that they do examine into the present state of the Public Accounts and Balances reported to be due, or that since have appeared due and ow ing to the Pliblic,!or which had been stated in any report laid before the House from the Commisvoners of Military and Naval Inquiry, or the .Commissioners of Ireland on th e I press Accounts,. and that they do lay with all convenient speed before the House with their opinion, an A tistrad Ac count, specifying the amount of the Balances and the Sums received thereon, with the dates of their Receipts—whether any Balances and theomouiit of them, and.aisn.whether any of the, persons implicated 4n at, present • enjoy any. place, pension, or office of trust under the Crown, and whether any sums now due are entirely irrecoverable, Sec." On the question being put, The CiIANCELLOR of fi,e gACHEQUER had no ob jedion to the Motion but he tho9ght the powers of the Committee wure extended , Mfieiently to em brace the objeol of the light Hon. Baronet's no tion. He did not knew wnether they were armed , with those powers. If tot, the [ion. Gentleman, (Mr. Ballieb) at the head Of the Gonunittee would, inform the House. He thought that the House would not be disposed to impose on them 'dt_nies which they Might conceive nol right, for the Com mittee must be the . hest judges. Mr. BANKES had no doubt the Cosittnittee - had extensive powers, sufficient for the purposes of the. Right, Hon. Baronet's motion. The Committed 'could have no objection-to report upon the' stale of the balances, if the House should deem such Re port. expedient. Mr. LONG observed, that it was clear the Com mittee have the powers. He agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet that the return was ra.cessary, and wished to state, with respea to one of the persons named, Mr. Steele, that his balance had not only been paid up, but every shilling of interest. He stated this, to shew an Honourable Baronet, not present, that .be was wrong informed when he declared 'that Mr. Steele had not paid interest.-- It a justice due to Mr. Steele to set the matter right. . After a few observations from the Chanc,lior of the Exchequer, Sir John Newport, :ind :Mr. Long, the motion was agreed to. CORPORAL PUNISHMENT. Mr. BLNNETT moved for a Return of the num ber of.CorporalTuuistuwnts in the ilep,ular seven years. The Hon. Gentleman could not see any injury that would arise to the service front pro ducing the return. He reprobated the system, and airnitted- that in every Regiment severity had lat terly be-:n exchanged for kindnesS, but stated he could briny, evidence to the Ba.r to prove that the statement of an Hoa. Gentleman, Mr. Sutton,'as to the few capital punishments, was incorre&. He made some (farther observations upon the system of punishment, which he generally condernned, and moved, &c. • Mr. C. ADAMS being unable to perceive any ad vantage that could be - derived from the produetion of the paper, hoped. the House would not agree to the motion. _ _ _ Mr. MANNERS 'SUTTON agreed with the Hon. Gentleman- who spoke last, that no public advan tage could be derived from the produ6tion - of 'the paper in question. The Hon. Mover had fairly al low•ed tha► it was to serve as a groOnd-wOrk for the abolition of corporal punishment altogetbet: But the produtlion of the paper. was not necessary even for that purpose. .He repeated what he had stated on a former occasion, that unless - a• case of great grievance were stated, the House would •not conseht to volunteer- an inquiry into the minute details of military matters. If the motion were acquiesced in it would cast a most•undeserved slur on the present Military Administration of the country He was fax from denying that the Account moved for could easily be produced, but this was attributable to the vigilance ,of the Commander in Chief, who attended scrUpulonsly to the manner in which punishments were inflicted - in the various regiments of the army. The Honourable Mover had said that it had been contended - that the military code had been much ameliorated, and that, therefore, that should be made known to the army and the country by the produaion of the paper. The • best knowledge which the army could have on the subject was the experience which they enjoyed of the advantage. As to the- county, he was much deCeiVed if the mode of administering the military law was any bpr,to the adoption of the military life. Indeed he was persuaded that the reverse was the case, for he knew that the feelings of the military in general were direcitly in opposition with the opinions of the Hon. Mover. The, Hon. Mover justly contended, that it was abhorrent to human nature to think that corpo ral punishment should be inflieted with more or leSs severity, according to the caprice of the Command ing Officer of a regiment. But this could not hap pen without the knowledge of the Commander in Chief ; there being half-yearly inspealions and re turns of the proceedings of all military Courts Mar tial. Of the goad effett of the present system on the army, the state of discipline . which existed in that artny; the - satisfaction which pervaded all ranks, and the close connection w Inch , subsi.s!ed between he officers 411 d the men, atibrdtd ample proof ; and he could not hut recilet that questions of 'this nature were brought forward, however: well intentioned, the only et1:!61 of which must be to unsettle the mi litary-mind, niid to make the soldiers'believe that they bad grievances, although those alleged griev ances did not at all exist. He believed, it the:it-my itself were consulted on the question, not only would there be found weighty and important autho rity among the General Officers in maintenance of the exiSting.sy tern, to place against the authority quoted on the other side; but that it would also appear, that a siiiiiiar sentirnent pervaded all ranks down to the privates. Tti. lion. Mover stated, as a reason for assenting to the motion, that there was no dif ficulty in civil cases, in allowing returns of persons tried to be laid before the House, and that no im putation was by that roceedieg suppoSed to be cast on the judges. BLit the principles on • which civil and military law were founded, were essentially different. UnqUestionably Parliament was not ex cluded from all interference with military waiters; but he was persuaded that it would not unnecessari ly loud) that which existed as long as the army it self ousted, namely, the conuoul of the Cro..yri Oyer military affairs, and under which controul the British Army had arisen to an unexampled state of skill and discipline. The Commander in Chief, not satisfied with all that he had already done for the 31 my, was at that time engaged in the consideration of a pl.in for . sansferring many cif, the cases hither to brought before RegUnental Com , ts Martial to Ge neral Courts iVlsrtial ; thus evincing that Illustrious Personage's unweaned zeal „for all which concerned the interest of the soldier. The plan to which he alluded was not a new one, but one that had been king: disused. Upon these grounds, and princi ' paily iipon the eitcumstance that no grave instance of abuse' had been cited, lie conk! not agree to a Wotion, - the tendency of 9;hich waS-alearly' to im pute blame to the military adMiniStration of the country, ATIERCRoNiBIE denied that his Hon. Friend attempted by his motion to throw sny slur on the Commander 7 in-Chief. If, as . was stated IV the Right lion. and Learned Gentleman, great iMprove ment had taken place in the administration of the 'military code, What., could be more satisfatiory titan by the pi oduelion of the papers in question, to de stroy alf•the ‘mikonception which existed 'on the subject I - • • Mr: SMITU followed on the same side, con tending ihtt the. denial that any abuses had existed Was in.onsistent• with the assertion that great peovement - had been Wade in the military system. This obstirvation he particularly applied; to the new plan reSpeMing •Courts" Martial, which the Right Hon. and 'Learned Gentleman had said was under consideration. MANNERS SUTTON, in explanation, stated that the object of the new plan was to give to Offi cers bi - Regimental Courts Martial, in cases not suffi ciently grave, to be sent to General Courts Martial, but nevertheless - too complicated for the ordinary anode of trial, that 'assistance which would proted them from irregularity in their proceedings. fir F. Butiparr was of opinion, that cases of a nature sufficiently grave had been 'stated on former occasions, - to induce the Houge to consent to the pre sent motion. He repeated the instance of the eight men - in Gibraltar, who were returned by the Sur geon as having died of flogging, which last word he afterwards altered to fever; of the dismissal of the Officers who would not persevere in the inflitlion of that sanguinary punishment, and of their restora tion to his Majesty's service, upon the representa tions of, Lord Hutchinson. He then adverted to a number of cases ;elated in the public prints, which, if untrue, he presumed would have _been contra suicide to avoid the punishment of tinning; in others, they attempted to commit suicide, and ex• perienced an increased puni,timf nt for the attt mpt. The feelings of the Officers of the army became callous by their being accustomed to such sanguinary exhibitions. Old men of 70; and boys of t ti, were equally subject to the lash, against which the feeble ness of age, and the indiscretion of youth, al. forded no plea. In many cases, death had followed the punishment ; and in this resped, the soldier's si tuation was most shamefully unprotected. Wilde in the hospital, he. had not the tueans'of communi eating his tale of iffj-ury- to any one, and when dead, his body was submitted to the inspection of no Coroner. Was this a situation for „an .English soldier ? It was unt_cine for a dog. Undoubtedly t was the prerogative of the Executive Government :o exercise controul over the army, but it was the duty of Parliament to take care in what way that cOntroul was exercised. The Right Hon. denik mdn opposite talked of the punishment of flogging as convivially as it it were to be exercised only on puppy dogs. It was a punishment uniting in it every thing detestable, and was deslruclive7of th 9 object of all punishment. The apprehension of it materially retarded the recruiting of the army, and increased the number of desertions. He ad verted to the opinion given on the trial in the early part of his present Majesty's Reign, of some Officers who had sentenced a man in Canada to a flogging, of which he died. That opinion was given by the then Attorney-General, Baron Ma seres, who declared that the punishment .which had been inflicted by.the sentence of the Court Martial, of which those Officers were the members, exceeded in ingenious cruelty that int:l-tiled on R the murderer of Henry IV. of France. Soldiers were fre quently known to faint in t he ranks, from their, ina bility to witness such a horrible punishment. But the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman asserted, that the army wi,hed it to be continued. This could only be. paralleled by a passage in one of the Satires of Juvenal, in which it was said that the fish desired to be taken for the dinner of the Emperor.— The cat o'nine tails'mUst certainly be got rid of. If it were not given up by the Gentlemen opposite, it would nevertheless be abolished. • All other griev ances were comparatively trifling. He had hoped. that the hints which had been- thrown out on the subject would have induced Goernttient to .do them selves the credit of abolishing it. But as that was not the case, he could not sit and see such base and despi cable chains fastened on the people of England. The great advantage of the present motion was, t hit, 'in point of filet, it was for the abolition of the punish ment. For the paper would either shew that the t ponishment had ceased, or else would disclose such leas as must compel Parliament to cause it to cease. He could not say, that he cherished any sanguine hope of the success of the present .motion, because he knewt that the Hone sympathised with the seri tiulents of the Treasury Bench, and indeed with all Treasury Benches. If, however, they - believe the Bible to be the word of God, they would recolleCt that it was for bidden to inflia upon man more than forty blows, save one, lest his person should become vile by an infliction against the law. Atler pro-. ceed ng at considerable length, the Hon. Baronet concluded by expressing his cordial concurrence in the motion. Mr. LACY HART agreed,w ith the Hon. Bart. that the present motion was virivally for total aboli tion of the punishment ; he should therefore vote against it. If all the disorders and crimes of an army could be put down, and contrasted with the punishments inflicted on those disorders and crio.es, such a strong feeling would not exist in the mind of any one against the present mode of punishment.— It had been resorted to by the Romans, than whom no nation ever arrived to a, higher military renown. It had formerly, though in a more sesere way, namely, by runningiti , e gauntlet, been the military punishment of the-French. For it they had substi tuted imprisonment of various degrees of severity, labour at fortifications in irons, the galleys, and death. It was no exaggeration to say, that for one British soldier on whom the punishment of death was-inflicted, there mere 1000 French soldiers by whom it was suffered. It was generally admitted, that Were the punishment of flogging abolished, that of death must be more frequently inflicted. But he knew no right-that any Government had to resort to the latter punishment, if the former were found sof ficient. Although he would not support, the nick , tion, he admitted that the military code required re vision, and that the' nature both of the offences and of the punishments, ought to be more stridly de fined. It was too loose a phraseology in such cases to delare, that the punishment should be inflicted " according to the custom of war." He agreed with the Hon. Baronet, that the utmost attention should be paid to the interests of the British soldier; but he could by no means agree with him, that the pumshtnent in question degraded t he country, Or tier!, to use the Hon. Baronet's words, England was a flogged nation. The punishment was not for the nation, but for those by whom it was deserved—the guilty. The tendency of agreeing to the present motion, would be to relax thai disciplirte which had raised our army to such a height of excellence, and to give to the soldiers an idea that they were exist ing under circumstances of injustice arid disgrace.-- In. the Militia particularly, there could, be uo dao ger of any abuse, for the officers of that corps had most of ,them been Magistrates, or accustomed to 'serve on grand juries, and were too familiar with the principles of the British Constitution, not to know,_ that in their * infliction of punishment, jus tice ought to be terripered with mercy. He should decidedly oppose the motion. Mr. W. WYNNE was not prepared to say the pre sent system of punishment ought to be torally.abo lished ; b / ut he believed the frequent discussions on this subjed had caused the number of , corporal pu nishments to be diminished with the happiest etfeet. He thought it might be well if corporal punishments were to be seldom inflitled, without a reference to the Commanding Officers. Mr. WILBERFORCE, when.he considered what an army was, declared himself afraid to give way to his feelings on the subjetl'ot corporal punish.nent,which might prompt him to speak in favour of putting an end to the system at - once. He, however, came to this conclusion, that as the punishment of flogging had been used less and less for some years.past, till at length it was only now resorted to in partienl J r cases, and only exercised in particular - regiments, it would be proper to , guard against the effct of in.