The Sun. — London, England, 1812-05-09 00:00:00

, 1.1 Id ri 'el 2°4l Y enntribetect *those troiet Con 7ei be • puted on l y . to the corrupt influence orthe Crowfl exercised tor th e defence of- the Ministets. It was i ns corrupt influence of the Crown which he wiskd -10 get rid Qt .- . In other respeas the House of Corn eillt)ns w as adrnirably constituted. Could any one. ,xPeCt more knowledge —more talents or more: , in- , ciustry from a change in-the mode crt that cons' it uton r .‘ ll . l ' no means. Bur it was just to expect considetable tatuivantage from the abatement of 1110 R o y al . in " e nce• It was desirable to dismiss- the number of place fr, amen in the House of Commens, and to ad ioitf into it more of the control of the people, • of the lower classe , hut of the enlightened po- Pular • • ' 10 0 of the country: • To triennial Parliametits ' t e had as great an objection as his Hon. Friend.— ~te3confessed, how ever , t h at h e . did nut expec t to a ny gre at i mprovement in the character of Par n'euf, until some improve tent took place in the P l. lri t of the Germ), of England. At pr e sent th e y Q to a nifested a melancholy and culpable indifference ed P°litics . Many of them appeared to have adopt hereditary (lpiittions. H opinions, and to act blindly on those He trusted that this torpor would one C t=ase s and th a t h e s h ou ld see t h e i n di v id ua l s to 4 n I°4l he had all u d e d aft with a spirit worthy of tu t i nn wh ° enjoyed the pri v il e ge o f a f ree Consti ._ e'ir. WARD p a id a hi g h. comp li ment to the Hon. a Lle ntan (M r . Elliott) wlio had replied to the Peecik a of the Hon. - Mover and Seconder of the prese nt l ent Proposition nthser that the great the s exhibited by at Hon. Gentleman, and the . f ha li v : 4e areument which he had adopted, must p er — st rongly reminded the House ut illustrious 14 - i S°ll „ (We presumr. Mr. Burke), who was once t heir (We and ornament. With that Hon. Gen tleman, he wished to stein the full tide of mischief, ti Ica it Was proposed to let iv, upon the country. knew. that he should differ on this subject from tche T t a ho o ri ti ty seo, of and tis h e e k withn ew w t i = t u t: Y actincuracted the 16 ' 1 4 loss of all hope of popularity.' It required lit calskill on the part of the reformers to insist in their g pa lse the strongest of the people. They had also ° 0 pains t o throw unmerited odiuM on those th s° PPosed their plans, by charadething them as do t y: iend s , of corruption and the enemies of _free mJ. A comp ar i son , h owever , o f time ch traders of lie advo cates on b o th sid e s , o f th e question would, li believedt not be unfavourable • to thi . se who li me n o g l it with hi nt t h at t h e propose d exper i ment on Nvi, n ' ° °' l nutio n was pregnant with danger. Those were on the other side talked of the British gie r 7 tu tion as if th e y s p o k e of th a t. o f Spaio,•Al ttctilOr Turk ey . Wh at was t h e b est test o f the Pec e j en ce of a,Constitution ? The happiness of the parse. That happlvess must be estimated, not at. - Crle i eniar mode of-pressure, but on a general con .ktioati°ll. The comparison, in this respect, of wand - lO N • with other counnies, and with itself in k a i n e r tittles, was highly in Its favour. tie did not trmo st ta i i n, that the Constitution had reached the ut 1114,,,l'eigin of perfection ; but as often as he heard l)o4° l4 ed stmemenis of evils-made, for the per= 41itid s t ill exist, they °I disgusting the people, he must re- ta, tit a i • 1 R t 'en) that atilt iugh spate little defeet st enjo)s a . • stale •of. po= I d No t ha Ppiness' unequalled in the word; This cl rai i : l 37 scatc:ly lasted a' drop of that 13 , tter 1 4q?''' which o • h er nat i o n s h a d b een compe ll e d ' ( ltl t r .l 4; lo the very d regs . L itt l e remaine d to b e ~iotitt° the stock of public happiness; but much lose ed s ll Y be taken away. He was not one of ao w ho L 11 40111113' exclaimed against innovation. t loy ito e 'wed that what was innovation once, was in ttoa )ti nu..'. Ail he asked was, not that innova tt - "ould • • but ,that sh nto be considered an evil ~,\ Pe cat , u not be considered a good in itself. The ad ‘•;oror-Is !el' Reform contended that the House of 1 \ 13 1 ,.' t did not speak the sentimen:s of the peo ,,it w 11 ' 11 ' 11 was tbe fact ? Was it not, as had been ye tapt e st ated by the Hon. Gentleman, that the ~. for instance, were friendly to time present 1 '4112 -li s Hon. Frie-nd it him (Mr. Whitbread) 'tttai t - :,%''' ably, and in his opinion most wisely, but q tiee . Y unsuccesstuky, opposed the continu larity°l th e win - . No put, however, of his ' poop. th e 41 ,the from that _circumstance. Amidst Da"Y praises which he hail heard, bestowed on lisaceo.• Friend out of that House; his love of la 4) Pe a ce w as never ma d e t h e su bj ect of eulog eeisioti y. In had b een all along most unpopular. The Parliament on tine Walchercn question ti e a rraig i 0% th n ag str on gly a s h e c ou ld with o ut in- Al 0 , e Orders of th e H o u s e ; but nevertheless petits't a ppear to have been contrary to the senti -41 (.4 t he meo le—that identical people who, cold 1 f, -blooded indifference, saw 'four mil hg n l e money wasted, and hundreds of valu. 0.1410 es saczificed a few months alter they had ge e 8- , time. ouizeudiscoverer ut fernale in -I\t li ce in as time disposal of mi:italy commissions ! lip sad that a Reform in Parliament 7 le n °Ce t si ".n greater personal integrity in public e , h r i t,'ere never was a period in which Hien in Ott 01" e stations were so lire trom the imputa lloin,liv.Personal corruption. Timis praise belonged 'nil pared of all parties. Let the present reign ' 4 l v r i ar ed that iespeet to that of Queen Anne.. roar triennial Parliamems existed in the latter te ver' e( ! ) ,,7 l °d• And yet time great . men of that day ttlt e eived that a Reform Parliament would th th e evp e pla ns by whicli they were surrounded. All tl b et icy,i, of Reform which lie had seen, had a ten ‘l4 ui 41 " 3 c onsiderable degree, to diminish the num ,Elev i e n of business in thai House ;in of her words, whim We a tendency to diminish the number of those ere no w best calculated to serve the country• tofi.„ ev er, he h a d nodifficulty in admitting, t hat Nuti , to et' of the Cr own i n Parliament was by iltiletlee Prepond erat i ng. I t was by t h at i n - ItlettO b e h at a feeble Administration had hi -1,7 the hi en e nabled to maintain itself in place. at t . r**ese n , 1 41 - b Administration, the reformers were s '‘llb ent - "gse they knew that a more vigorous Go ttleric Would be'fatal to their designs. _This in btl. the emnfortunately operated with as much strength s' elf • stiluents of the House, as on the House t atu i nr Stink ta j i ,' and I was. the extent of our naval, 4 iCeely a civ il -establishments, that there was 4 re ctiv nitid ividual in the country, who directly or °St did not see k for some favour of the Ci own, to, A:f the %% o w People, therefore, wanted Members cod e 41,341 -0 4 re present them, not in the House of . 14 1 . -.o ur , b ut at the Treasury ; and who would 4,,„ke 1 ° obtai n f or t h em a r i vu l et from the wk , ark • klit` th 4 °I patro nage ,' to water t h e na k e d spot e Y dwelt. TheSe men, therefore, had • a ts.furale preference 'for. tlf weak adaniniStratiob - ; they had no dislike to jobbing. and they thought, a morning well spent in Downing -street, worth many evening's passed in the discharge of their dit ties:in that Horse. - That it was not the mem bers for rotten boroaighs who gave Minisieis their majorities in the- House of Commons was apparent. Lea Gentlemen co nsider, for instance, the division on that fatal measure, the Walcheren expedition. As many of the real representatives of large bodies of the people voted in the majority on that occasion, as of Members for rotten boroughs; no inference, therefbreecould be deduced from that• circumstance in favour of Parliamentary Reform. —. Ttse number ot. electors for London was thirteen thousand. This was popular' enough surely, yet three of the. , four Representatkes of this great bialy of people voted that the Walcheren Expe dition was .a laudable undertaking. Would the friends of reform r hence in feethat the city of London. Was rotten, and that it ought to he disfranchised ? One 'of the evils resulting from the measure, would be that of giving the opinions of the people too great an influence, and making the House of Com mons not the faithful eeriay - of their character and principles, but the mirror which should'reflett their prejudices and passions. It would also lead to a great change in the persons who, at present, consai. toted the House, and operate as' a perpetual bounty to turbulence. When: be looked round' on that much-reviled assembly, he could not see how it could be better fitted for all -the purposes of legislation, if such mountebanks' tricks were to be resorted to for the attainment of 'populari ty, which would then become nece-ss try. When he placed before his eyes the • tarries of , those s to whom England was most indebted for her li berties, and refle&ed that - they took their spring from that - contamiva•ed soil Which we •were now to tut from under the feet of succeeding genereions, he corsisl not agree' in the proposition of his Hun. Friend. On the subject of Scots refo - rm, he could not help observing, that if it was granted, it would be a most unexpected boon. - After dwelling ''ar some length on the views of the Reformers, and their aversion to the moderate reform now proposed, he concluded with a strong exhortation to the House, to venerate and protect the Constitution as it existed, and as they had experienced its aea vantages. • S rFluascis BURDETT said, that, his notions on the subject were so dire=ctly opposite to, those of tire Hon. Penfletuan who had just sat down, he could not help making some observations, not witbstandiri . g the disadvantages Lauder which be rose after such an elaborate _Speech—a speech, however, which he thought as little consistent with itself, as with the principles of the Constitution. The House was cautioned against Subjeeting its decisions to the gusts of popular - opinion, but he stood upon the great fundamental principle, that the people were entitled to a share in the Government of the Country, and that the only share they could have, was that of re- , presentation. They were desired to look to certain rotten boroughs, as having been the means of intro ducrog the best represeutwives ; but if that was the Constitution, he would rather the Crown should be despotic avoxedly, than despotic by such means,— When he looked to the Constitution, which he be lieved to be written in the old laws, and in the prin ciples of which they were founded, he. perceik'ed that our Government consisted of King, Lords, arid Comaions, anu however violent he reight be repre sented to be,. Judge Blackstone, who was not very liable to the chargeof violence, maintained the same principles on this subject with hint. He considered that the Great Charter of the country was not obao lets!, -however it might be infringed ; that Charter was the birth-right of tlnglislimen. In that it was provided that the people should not be taxed with out their own consent, and that eledions,ought to be free ; so that if he, could make out that the con trary was the case, he should establish Ilia poSition. He quoted tire. opinion of Fortescue, Who ascribed . 'the excellence of the laws of Leglaud to the circum stance of the consent of the realm being necessary to their enaffinerie. He also appealed to the authority of iv:lr. Windham in - proof of the curt option of Par-. !lament that existed;' and recommended as the only • means Of checking that evil a lair- representation of the people. It had been said. that moderate reform would not go as tar as he and others wished; 'bat he was one who, though he looked to radical reform, would always give his humble e suppoit to every re form. The Hon. Gentleman said the great orna ments of our country never called for • refot but did he forget the declaration of Sir William Wind ham, in favour of an honest representation ? Did lie forget s the writings of Lord Halifax, who supported the same principles, time work of Sir William ibises,' or the authority of the Earl of Devonshire, Who pro tested against the Septennial Bill ? Might not every thing be deolare.l high treason by Parliament ? Might not property and even life itself be affetted by it, if there was a, Miniver profligate enough for such desiges; and *as it not necessary to be provid ed with a security ? He next instanced the opihiona of Lord Chatham, Mr. Pitt, and Mr. Fox, in fa vour of Parhatnentaly Relbt in, and maintained, that even if the Scotch were satisfied with the represen- . ration as it stood at presem, an honest Statesman. should go against the popular opinion, to do a bene fit to the country. It it was not for the negleCt of Government to arm the proi,eity Of the Ration, ac cording to tbe Statute Bt - aolt, no riot, he maintained, could happen, which 'could not`be immediately sup pressed. In former times, they never dreamt of sending writs-to stocks and sto' ; and if they were .now desirous - of Reform, they 'had nothing_ else 'to_ do, but toirnmediately repeal the ActsJor Septen nial and Triennial Parliaments, and to restore the prerogative of the Crown to issue writs to other than rotten boroughs'. As to the, argument that they woeld be deptived of great talents by adopting the ;Measure, he should observe, that in those times when no rotten boroughs were in existence, able men were found to condutit the public affairs. He was aware'that there were many timid persons who opposed' reform ppm no other ground than their own fears; but .from the view he had of the practi cal effects and profligate waste of the contrary sys tem, he should not hesitate to give his vote in favour of tire proposed improvement. Lord MteTosr . said, he differed materially from the Hen. Baronet who spoke last, especially. as to the expedient of enabling the Crown to send writs to any Borough it pleased. Nothing could be more hostile to freedom, or subVersive of the . con stitution, though it came from a great advocate uf popular liberty,. With deferinCe to his Honourable Friend (Mr. Brand) and the' Honourable Baronet, :he thought they were mistaken in supposing that 'the il.uOughs which returned Members, originafly were pl icts of groat wealth and,population. It was tree t hat oony -,vere . great which had declined ; but many ,A.ere insignrficant at that period which had risen to einitirnce. With' all his partiality for the landed interest, he, thought it would be a great evil, if no others were admitted. He wish-d, after all that had been said of the rottenness and unsoundness of the constitution, to know. in what part of it that rottenness and unsoundness was to be found. His Hon. Friend wished that the copybolder should hare a vote as well as the freeholder; but his objeCtion to the step was, .that it did not immediately . accord : with the old constitution. He whit say, as to the allusion to the Earl of Devonshire, he happened lately to have read his protest, which did not .go against the principle of Septennial Parliaments gene. : rally, but against the exclusion of that particular ParliaMent. He conjured the House to pause be fore they touched with sacrilegious hands that temple which was raised by the wisrlomsof our an cestors, assisted by what. was called: aceideni, but what was in - reality the hand of Providence work ing for the good of man. Sir S. ROMILLY expressed his surprise at -the 'ar guments of the Noble Lord, and deelaied he had long thought reform neCess.ry as a means of dimi nishing the influence of the Crown. With resned to the proposition_ of his Hooourable Friend, fOr adding copyholders to. freeholders, and to take the eleave fratichise from the Eledors of. Close Bo roughs, and give it to the Counties, he thought 'it was so fair and equitable that the House could not • object to it. It would bbrecolleoed, that copyhold estates were in effect the same as freeholds. Lor4, MwroN shOrtly explaioed, ' Mr. D. GIDDY was not inclined to .offer many ob , ertations tion, the motion, as it had been dis cussed much more'eloqaently than he could discuss it. The objea of those who contended in support of the motion was to make the Parliament a demo cratic one; but he would defy any of the Gentle men 'supporting the proposition, to strew him that such a mode of representation Vuuld be better than a mixed farm of GovernMent. He could sympa thize as much as the Honourable'llaronet could do with the situation of the people at present. But the proposed alteration could not benefit, the Constitu tion. Such an assembly, coupled as it would be by the fancies of a variety of persons, or as was once expressed by an Hon. Member, " composed of the worst materials-=the base pander of the worst pas sions of the people," would never arnalpmate with the other branches of the Legislatnre: Ilassemblies‘ of this description did .exist, tt must be at a distance from the metropolis, surrounded, and striB:y guard ed by an armed force, for they would most likely be . apt to indulge opinions that the King was a cy pher. The present state of representation was the very perfeaion of the Constont ion, and competent to, all useful and necessary purposes. A democra- Ccal one would absorb the other branches. Could it he said, that Westminster would be worse repre sented if it were less democratic.? Concei% ing that no practical benefit would be derived tO, the country from an .alteration in the system of eleclion, he should oppose the motion. .: Mr. Gooott concurred with those who thought the question, one of tie most vital impot - tanee. If the erOposition was acceded to, the test It Nmighr be accompanied .by total ruin to the country. Ile saw no good whatever that could arise from adopting it. There never was a . the annals of. the country when ar.grtater mass of honour, of integri ty, and of talent, were combined in this House.- , Notwithstanding what he had heard on various oc , casions, he. must deny that the House and the Peo ple are a't variance. The Hon. Baronet might con ceive himself a judge of the wishes and opinions of the people by those he was in the habit of meeting at the Crown and Anchor. lie (Mr. G ) must allowed to form an opinion of his own Constituents, who lived by the plough, who were not a Set of manufaefured Patriots, like those at the Gown and AnQhor Tavern; they titd not wish for Reform, and therefore he should vote against the .motion. Mr. Witermacmo would have risen sootier, but had expected 'some of the Right Hon. Gentlemen on.the Treasury Bench would have preceded ht ti.-- The Member for Suffolk, who had jut sat down, might• entertain - - his own opinions of his, consti tuents ; but would he compare them with the Hoo. Baronet's, who were deemed the most enlightened in the kingdom ? Why the Hon. Metnbee ba;l chosen to call them a set o! mannfaifitired patriots he 'did not know. Goo . ex denied the asser lion.] The Hon: Gentleman had misunderstood him then. t he believed there was in :that part of the country, where the Member for Suffulk„and the Hon. Gentleman, 'one of the Members for a. Cornish .Burgh, more of whit Mr. Burke called " the shameful parts of the Constitution," than in any other part. He regretted that his Hon. Friends who preceded trim had, not only set their facei against • Reform, but had stated theirAistrust of the advocates of the system.. He deprecated the praelice,.9l ob jet-ling to liefOrm, because this wag not the proper time, and asked, whether it Was not necessary, when - the influence of the Crown in this House had heel. exercised lately upon. the ques tion relating to Ireland ; and whether the'Crown, and not the People, decided that question ? (No, no!)—Would any one presume to maintain the contrary ? Would they. say., that if the influence Government had been exerted for the question, —would they Veen con•end that the qnestion would have been so decided ?:—(llear, (rear!) The deci sion was an instance of the influence of the. Crown. (No, no !)—Gentleman opposite might deny the assertion, bin upon dissection, he thought, it might ,be demonstrated to be true. Yet the Right Hon. Gentleman had, on bringing in his Bill on the preceding night, told the House that his Adminis tration wfiS the most ',hums of any that had sway ed the affairs of the country for a length . of time. , Th e Hon. I_entlema'n defended his own consis• teney on time .question of 'Reform, and maintained, that as on the occasion of the American:war, though the -people, as in the present war; were anxious to begin it, at length they wished for its tertnination, and the Government were obliged to give in. So now they would be compelled to give in to the voice of the people. .Ailverting to the speech ot the Hi"m. Baronet on a former night, he lamented that it "i•hould have been made, because, from ,the conies , riou of 50(114 of his friends ) , its tendency had the • effetcl of inauclni them to vote for the Bartaek. Estimates, and conserptently to lay a fine upon the country of 90,0001. He was happy that the Hots. Baronet had titN night explained. He suppo , tea the motion on the ground that the Congtittition of Patliement .originated with the People; and Wait vested by them in the Sovereign, for tie .11torte sprung from them, and the power of the Soveteigti was to be tisl for the benefit of tie People—they, therefore had time right of controuling the influence of the Crown. It ' was the first time that a Minister; after being repeatedly beaten, had kept his place ; he was therefore justified hi a•serting that there wat" an lucre tsing. - irifiuente of the Crown. • Reforin way necessary, and ;be House refused to grant the mo.. lion.- The Kiblic would at retigth tie frea•rd. Mr, CARTWRIGHT (we believe) thought that the House had sufficient of democracy in its eunit,tql tion, without reform. It represented, at Crtesent i property of all kinds. Mr. PONSONISY - saw-no Objeelion to the proposi tion of his- Honour - Able liiend; and should- atipre; 'sent support it. He thought it a more stile and rational mode of obtaining teforni- wy 4111, than by a general 'and sweeping nieaure, the conse quences of which could not be 'Oprciaistd.. H 4 would not however go, the length Of adopting the measure, without mature discussion and deli- - beration. Sir JOHN NEWPORT' referred to a speech of tilt. Noble 1, ,, rd (Castlereagh), made in February, 1793, in the Parliament of Ire RislieW that he wals a friend to Reform, th ou gh uow he had changed his sentiments. Lord CASTLEREAGH was indisposed to dopt Are, opinions just imputed to - friar. The opinions of early life were n o t generally the Most corre& but with resped to the Parliament , of Ireland he held the, same opinions, namely, that it was deficient not. in the theoretical, but_ in . the praClical charaCrer of representwiou,\and . therefore he looked to an- union as the means of supplying the &lea. lie denied that he had made up his mind as to the practica bility of reform in the English representation. Mr. MARTEN (of Galway) expressed surprise at wlvt he had heard from the Right Honourable Gen tleman (Mr. Ponsouby.) From what he had tot. racily stated, he expected he would rather have opposed the motion. The borough interest had been most injurious to Ireland, and this had been principally in the Righr Hon. Gentleman's hardy, from whom it had Peet) purchased at an expence . of. 60,0001. PONSONBY had - never said that the English Constitution,' excellent as it was, might not be proved, nor that abuses that might have crept into it ought not to be correded. As to what the Hoe. Gentleman had said' of the injury done to Ireland by the Borough System, and - of 60,0001. having been- paid to his family to wrest the Borotigh inte rest from them, the fa& was, that he, former. ly had possessed but 'one Berough, and it was not common to give 60;0001: for one Borough in Ire-. land. He had alWiys thou:gilt the cp*Stion one of tlie greatest moment, and one which ought to be appreeched with the greatest delicacy. • 'The Cl- . IANCELLOR of the ExcnEctusa - had never been present at a debate in which . he was less antious: to take a part, as the part which he should have been disposei . •to take, had been sustained with great abi- • - lity by the Right HOrl. Gentleman and the Honour.. able Gentlenirm opposite. He wished, however, to corrett a misunderstanding, and consequent•rtisre. presertration of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Whit brrad), Who had described him as hiving been, on the preceding night, the panegyrist of hiS own Kt'. rainietration ; as, having stated it to be the N ouosi yiT gnrous and the most virtuous of Administrations, and as having bestowed upon it many other superla. tives. - He had been but in a vety small degree the panegyrist of himself, as he only used any thing like the expressions imputed to him when comparing it with an Administration which he could assure the Hun. Gentleman he had never been in the habit cif extolling so highly, as to make it appear any thing like a presumption of extraordinary merit, that toe present Administration possessed greater vigour or greater virtue. In thinking that uothing very ex traordinary was necessary to equal or surpass elee, he-was not very singuler in his opinion, and he believed the people themselves were rather turning, that way: Of this the Noble Lord had given him a little, testimony, as he admitted, that with all the faults of the present feeble and unsuccessful Admi nistration, and with _all the demerits of the Wale cheren exeedit ion attached to them, th , ,fy were pre- ferred to the last splendid and vigorous and success ful and brilliant Administration. But -then it was said that they were saved from a defeat on the Wel cheren quest ion, by the influence of the Crown.— He begged to say, that in that very - session, and.pre vidus to that - vote, that. same House of Conimons had refused to wait three days for information. upon the subject ; and so far were they from being under the influence of the' Crown, that Ministet ., were accordingly Out-voted on that question, and the House got the information they called for at that time, in opposition to the Administration. ' But me Gentlemen opposite, fleshed with this advantage, Went' rather too far. They called for an inquiry into the Walcheren Expedition, which opened the eyes of the House and of the public, and .hence the vote, which .Parliament afterwards came to was to he ace counted for. An objedion, however, was t.ti,ed against the individuals' who voted fur Government.. He however had ne.objedion to the lists of the ma jority and minority being disseCted, if they could • be procured. If this were done, in order to leave , .none who were biassed . by interest in favour of • Go. • vermuent, all the,placemen mould be at once struck off as a* dead seight. But if they struck off from the - list all who were in possession of places on the one side, he hoped they would, not object to strike off all who were in expectation of placeS on the other: And they would give him leave to couple with this consideration a request, that it might be remembered that a place could be possess• ed but by one, but it could be expealed more than one. Let them then take away those who po4sessed places on the one side, and who expetted , them on - the other, and he would be pettedly Willi g to go to a division with the rest. It had been rm puted to' him as an offence, that he had kept in' office after being•in a minority, while it was Con.• >tended, that the influence of the CrOwn was greater during his administration, than it liad been in any other.. He contended e tbe fa 9f his haieg been in minorities, %yeas proof that the influence of , the-Crywn -had not increased in proportion to the