The Sun. — London, England, 1805-05-11 00:00:00

• ir Is JA34,-TeIP.:IT et - -.: /r. , sitelv , -f!' • ( CVIIV . , .A_A .V. r4L,31 e0 : IPliih, ( V 4I )A AtZ `l.-IF2r u N \s., ..:.: *VO%.. 1) , ____ -- --- irAq.,..4, ,- vii.ltiif Li) ....i., - i g 4 6,1 ;"0191 - iitytt ~fi l i, e 4, -"'"ll.k\x\k". ~ ml t . , NUMBER. 3948. • Witiali I /IL PARL LIMENT: 1101;SE OF PEERS. ritiDAY, MAY 10. Ay %A advanci,l;: the Bills on the Table a stage each, and -, going through souse oil Cr imlilllinar) huSiness._ of treatn for itt emtuts the House proceeded to the Order of - the Day taking into consideration the Prayer of 'FRE CATHOLIC PETITION. 0 LirelGß4 NrIL Le, immediately rose, and moved, -141 t he Petuion ht now read ; which being read ac cording], ..... th e (IN T O A ' : .....rubil.p entered up on a statement of ~, mollie s w hi ch induced Lim to give notice of the V 4 ilinn . which he should this night submit to their , .I"`"(i'llips' csmsidsrstion. I ‘vished• my Lords, ''' .l l l he, that the Petition might be now read, in titilet to that your Lordships' recolleetion of the 1 ell, i' ol it sets fnrth, and th e spirit of moderation with whi c h it dwells upon them: 1 c rust t h at W e 61 )411 enter upon thediseussion with a similar spirit, 4 ,,, n r , d ,,, t ; hil above all things there be infused into it -- 'iing of party violence. That • the Petitioners and 'thieil 01 the Petitioners should have eke. 141 :re to encounter party violence must naturally he:.) tvit,'-',441. Indeed, from party-spirit and !,arty. , Gra ssicel they have almost every thing to tear and, - ; eeti' any th i ng to hope. But here at least I tvlll , 1' 0 , 411 , 1 Nell Il Wish that no room may be found 11,7 infltience of such impression ; cruel indeed ' tfli ' i t be to intermix party views with a di,cus. - : +lol attach a nature, a" '° sly)" wi° the feelings 1 4 4 jrnei e"' of millirms of our fellow.itsbk.ets, while Insole intention and endeavour would be to ad. t y h -ee Patty purposes. Conscious I am, that in ~ all have now uodettaken, not a breath of such I a `l'liiionaCtuates my bre.asti to lieu • and as willing am from , that such impressions are equally resn'ite . it I , 'Voile Lordships' minds. But at the same time, 11',,,,!(11, I should shew myself: very ill' teal in ati," 3 „ 4 ,"tire, and ignorant indeed of what objetis . bp i present discussion must give . rise to, if I were Ind fu il, swore of how much prejudice,' clamour, ifirmlirepresentation it has to enc o unter . Fully. ,„ : !lii,le I an t to what portion of brat clamour and ration'ultviliiitetstesen myself, and, those who may think ur " me on the present subjeCi; are liable, and hots, diir cnnc !!'er may be said Co betray indifference and Stater towards the establishments in Church arid 01) : but to these imputations I can readily nt"? le 'the Conscientiousness of the raftitude s,f tionlntentions, stron g in the consolatory recollect. h 4 t h't I hare discharged a great duty, and that, o ial :';vrr fate the question may experience, I es,,,,:a,'e no share at least in the evils that may Th e ' front an ookind and abrupt rejettinnof it. s 0 " 1, indeed, might have been doubly .great ,if tiiteePcittunily Whatever had been given .cur the y our 01 it ; but now that it has come under th,t t'e'l'hips' consideration, .1 own I feel anxious a nd e.. ',e qusstion tnay . he reived:tfully rote, tattled, taut : 414 % and deliberately discussed. It .siteh be leiiltsduct on this important occasion, it will at st t , iy n av,e this happy result, that tio man will - go bu y i p !" 11 "ut som e 'h ope th at ere long some progress lil iv , ' 1114 ( 1 e ln the business; but should our contlutt th,!,ol,?4')dested an opposite temper and dispositioni is t h e c t hoe appeared that there was not one man of t" "Vetial Parliament to presel'it the Petition ti th. ' 4 , r g e 411(1 r etVeft,ibl e a class of the community, sits, 11 , ' e vtn the door of your Lordships' House the i m ut 4 t 4 inst its prayer; what would have been thikrehin made by such a condutt on every • hss, l g 'lnd benevolent man, what at least would it 100)::'121_,Ie impression on the minds of those wlium spair 1 aarly concerns, hut that of absolute dc. eiretims, rv illt that view of all the sentiments and lilts sty which must atte n d the manner in sp . 1 " "? important and delicate a subject is taken in * ill . fadece,) . endeavour to shape my mode of proceed. ,rirtling to my best conception of them. I Isii e -Ile'T request, that what so deeply concerns' so tait,rl in ss Of our fellow.subjetts, may at least . e Poin t out“), consideration without any attempt Cu sh oilld b 1 ' ) "/ anY of the, objeds of the Petition thus I. e Panted or withheld. By proceeding ' iliesteZterately and cautiously , I trust I may vi ii. Most i,hoPlcTriety of my own conduit, and of tittle i exe Ittti,(l nilar opinions, while at the same Irises who the spirit of the Petitioners them. P t ..' ^nose chief • . . . . • ~, 'hhitun ttsolicitude it is that at least their 'hip s . hY be tespetifully submitted to your Lord -44., considerati ill . 1 bc,,ih nns And now, my LOrds, how '4 ? 1 ti l l 11';_t!) lay this moments,US question before it ) i . , ), iiiatil ls , it most natural And advisable to be. o , bll ei thc . 1 laa wi,ich should .form the founds. mein ie je4 titon, a 11:0")le of ()Ur proceedings upon this to p a l, _ ' ti) Whiell those who oppose it t , tO whi c i! Ive little attention or regard. The 41 he tount ' 4 411Ude is the state of the population jrt'hint ' T Y h nin wl4ich the Petition comes. The , 14 :es 11 ( 1 ) : p ti t ie lit P:irt of the Population which in. hi tit i t i 3 l 'nera iS diffsrently stated, at the vtitthest 41 ithe,i(imPured at three millions, at the ish ie att sb,or.',r It would therefote appear, that ihtft.,re ethicat: hairl', milliOos of .persons in Irelands ssr,i,t"an Cats ' ' , • i 4 nd who profess the teoets os li„; r 2t hi c oni - . ) .‘ "c reliigion, and. who eonseivently 04;444 Catilflijeis"eled In any - other light than As pi 0 ,.. 4 ev ery c* P a" as it is the obje6l and the 1t1e 43 (f tilt wirvernment to provide for, the hap. Q oti „, he ssid ' t I " rs t 11 0 ), rUie, how can a Cavern. ri ot '"IYi th tee . u i, P r "vide feor the happiness of a ,te kJ 1 , Uttlis of "ere r enti tled 'whose rovulation does otioldvotitly. til r° , their care ? .. No . doubt * it tsi Pkv s it , e wlslsed, that the same amity tio _ n. matters I'l' • i t , .. Foilati, . o re lglon, as in politi. 'sutonai . • is, 1 , ` l ekred „c Principles ; but this is not ti i , oe l is:d, , a ( 2'ding tt.i our wishes; but as it lit i ' LI b e . 1 ' " 114 s been. arid ai• it must eon. Ihtto ti4Y,l4'e ri,cewever' that is: , ction of the popu. I ate m it "'led) With that certainty hefore 1 1 th Qse ~., " 4 0 May wish there were no . . Catholies at all, prepared to say, that Government should look only to the happiness of - the members of the Established Church ? I hope an trust ?here are none who entertain such a sentiment ; but -should there be any, let, them cast' back their eyes On what , has past since the Reformation ; let them recur to the history of those l i m es down to the preseur . ,'andthey may colleft from a due observe. dolt of the system of Government how to cor. red their opinion. , They will find that the Catho. , figs wete looked upon as adverse to the Revolt!. 'ion, because their religiOn was connected with an opposite political opinion,.and thus placed them in a hOstile light to the Protestant Establishment.. Burl the object of the Revolution was riot to punish and put down 'a Particular religious opinion ex. adly because it was supposed hostile to Church and State, but hecatise it was thought to he then con. Reeled with a political opinion that' inclined to fa. your the exiled family, and in consequence of that partiality the Catholics were excluded by new loos and engtments from any participation in the vernment. I shall nototow ex.oni;••At into :he justice or Lxpcdiency ''of that conduit, or contaiend or ar. reign the motives from which it sprang. I know at least, and that is enwugh for me now to state, that the situation of those times is not the situation of the piesent day ;' but here .also let me do jusriee to that great, that memorable Prince,' King - Wil. ham, who always approved hiMself the friend of freedom, • the friend of . . toleration, and let Int not he thought to, charge on his memnry•the blame, if blame there be,`-of the . measures that• were sub. sequently adopted.. They were no' part of his system. Under the following reign the Irish Ca. (holies, Merely as Catholics, were' cfcp.idered es • irreconcilably hostile to . the'Protestant Establish. hunt in Ireland ; their mutual dislike .suon fee: tered into, an implacable hostility, which nothing could allay, and not only were the Catholics ex. chided from all participation in the Government and in the benefits of the Constitution,,. but they were not allowed even the enjoyment of property, of toeir religious rites, nor even the means of edit. cation, and thus the measures adopted against them . were calculated in every resesed to render them poor, illiterate, and contemptible, end to reduce them• to the lowest, the most degraded state to which it was possible to reduce man ; so low were they sunk into ignorance and poverty that they could derive . no possible kind of consequence but from their numbers, and thus, gi . y every sort of exasperation,Tthey must have been thoroughly alien. 4191 from their fellow iubjeds. I dan feel 'no plea. sure in descending any farther into an examination of the system Which then prevailed. I should not, perhap's, have gone so far into the considerotion of it, though ti was scarcely avoidable; th - ough Icon. fess that I Might have been betrayed somewhat fur. titer merely by the anxiety I must have felt to mark and note out the pleasing contrast between what their past and what the present auspicious reign exhibits in that respebe. How striking that contrast every heart must feel and acknowledge measures have -gradually been adopted ,which re. versed the former system, and, perhaps, pled can only be gradually produced. An MI was soon passed to allow the Roman Catholics and Protest. ants to intermarry. They ,were next indulged in the ' free exerci s e of *heir religion, and though they might nut be made good Protestants, yet they were no longer expeded to be made immoral members of. society. Still fOrther indtilgences were granted them: they soon were alloWed share in the eledive franchise, and in the executive offices ; and this •system of lenity and concession rapidly produced the very opposite effects to which the former system necessarily gave rise. They soon acquired wealth from the pursuits of agriculture and trade,' and from a participation in every thing that promoted general civilaxatiun. The-extension of etammercial privileges which was afterwards grant. ed them'naturally increased their wealthy, which be ing diffused among the lower and middling classes, a. class was soon formed which scarcely existed before, but which it. was the *owed objed of, the new system to establish. Nor were these the onlyad. vantages that sprung up under its fostering pro. tedion amid encouragetnent ; for in proportion as they advanced in industry and itieteaSed in wealth,sn evident .increase wan also discernible in their af. feCtion to their King and Country, and in their at. tachment to the Constitution—all of which reetiv . . .ed a still further increase by the. further marks of favour they, received in the year 1792, when they weresadmitted to the enjoyment of almost every advantage af'd blessing of the Constitution, except those entonerated in the Petition now on yout Lordships' Table. But here it seems it Was thought proper to make a stand ; the plan of concession was to proceed no further, and they must submit to be excluded from any more enlarged participation in. the GOvernment. Whiny nice considerations may have stopped the progress of gradual concession. It Was judged fit 'to consider what might be safely granted, and how far dress concessions might be tarried without interfering With what was due to the ot her side, and what mightbe expetted by the party which was exchtAvely Protestant. The great ()tea. sure4the Union was, however, to remove all these difficulties —those at least which chiefly arose from the peculiar frame of the Irish, Parliament,and which •were looked .Upon as the principal bar against further concession. What before might justly be considered as dangerous, was now looked upon As .pertedly 'innocent. When that measure, fraught with the most beneficial consequences to both Coun tries, I mean the Union, was carried , into effed, it is tiedoobtedly true, I know the fad, that no au_ thorised assurance, that no promise.was made to the Catholics of Ireland that the reittittions and disabi. hues under which they laboured should in taken SA TURDA X, MAY 11 1 IBo j. off. At tile same time, by most of the sup. porters of the Union, these additional concessions were often hinted at as ore of the great ob. jelly of that measure. Although the supporters of the Union might not all agree that, Rey further mea. sure in fivour of the Catholics should be carried, yet they, and almoir all who spoke on the consequences of the Union, seemed to reckon the possibility, nay the probability of anvil further concession among them; at least it was frequently asserted that the Catholics might safely present their yeti. lion to the Imperial Parliament, who were likely to entertain it with respe4, and cheerfully to take it into consideretion:. it was added,' that whatever difference of opinion - might hefore have prevailed tipon the:ono .. let, that, since the Union there could no lunges he any hesitation to examine minutely and in detail all the measures respeectitig the'Romen Ca. dilies, and the expediency of granting any further exeinotions. . It is this pledge, toy Lords, which I messy call upon your Lordships to realize. Ido not metes, by challenging you! Lordships to fulfil. that pledge, to call upon you for the adoption of any particular measure; but merely to manifest a elis. ,position which proves our readiness to consider case of the Catholics with temper.,and impartiality, and 'with a sincere desire- to compose all animosities and differences ; and likewise a willingness to hear what rights they may yet chtien to the full , coi 'Y. anentof constittitionalpeotedion. The otteetlett, therefore, which 1 shell have: to propose is, That the Flet.ise di immediately -resolve `itself into a Committee, to consider of the Petition, presented inhelialt of the Roman Catttelics of Ireland. Whu 'could refuse to acquiesce in such a Metion,. or upon what grounds the refusal could be justified, I am at a loss' to consider. For .nryself, .my I am ready to declare, that out only a part, but that the while of the prayer of the, Petition should be acceded to. For what seas the general wish ? Did it enxiously look for a complete toilets of all dc. seriptione of His "Majesty's .Set i e:tr, 'int'. an union not merely in name, anti the leio:r at the.law,, but ari`bnion growing tow of mutual interest and affee. titan, and deterrstioeSisfevodoe on all sides fear the defence of.. the CtinNtitlitiOn Yee .freadily con. test, that the troetioe may, in some ,degr o e i b e A question oni) 'at expeolieeey, and opt ot right.; but .of what nature eom that expediency be well considered, whirl: would continue restriaiuosoon four millions of • OM' fellow.sn!lj which• debar theft) froM a full shire .of the privileges of rens ? It is ot least incorobent upon those wha *Mild continue the restrietiOtis, to slow the ne. cessity of continuing them. .Must they not. al. low that the principle of oout free Constitution consists, in egad laws nod t rikvileges ; and that, in the light of the law, the lowest man is on a footing With the highest ? Upon what ground then'ean the continuance of the disqnalifications be justified, except upon that of necessity ? let those, however, who plead that greund, come forward with proofs that the necessity. exists. Such an idea was ineompatii,:e with the basis of a free Cunstitu. don, which consisted in equal laws and though it might be, necessary to admit some distinttion of pd. vilege, yet that four millions , of his Majesty's Subjeas should be debarted.of the ptivileges enjoyed .by the other daises of their fellow eubj,•cts, required to justify such .a privation the morst strong, the most palpable, and unquestionable expediency and necessi. ty; in ol)inpirlion the remaining testritatonsshould not be allowed to continue a moment longer, andethuegh it may not be requisite in my mind to look for any objoCtions that cool fairly he urged. against their request; yet it may not be ill.titned to touch some what upon the nature of them. "rite first ground of objection which I have heard tutneured about, I am sure, my Lords, wilt never- be a.. riously brOtsght torWatd by any of your Lordship*, .is of such a nature, and ean only be mentioned to Oteite surprise how such nations could ever be entertained, It has been somewhere said, that it was the nature of the`Cathislic Religion, 'that those who professed it could not, be loyal subjstts. Can that be true, my Lords ?: or if it be true, surely it follows that those whom their religion usekee, traitors, not only are not ,fit to be admitted to any partiCipation of the privilege's of citizens, but that they ought not to •heve been Admitted to what they already eojey. If such could be the infhteece of their religion over them, why should you Admit them to sweat in Courts of justice ? I know indeed that an codes,. your was somewhere trade /to circulate ati opinion, that it was impossible for any man to be a true and loyal Subjed ds lung as he remained a 'C.:titholic.— Where so blind, se, monstrous a eropeeition could possibly spring from, it seas difficult to cuejeause, •unless perchance it might have been rescued ttom .some . tousty records.of stone councils of the church. In vain do the Catholics deny, that whet they pro fess has any such tendency. Tiry -ate told by their accusers we know your religion better than yourselves. You swear you can keep faith wtth Protestants. . We .bring you to the table, to swear it; and yet afierwattle they are told their oath is not to b, believed. You itto tree tsothetaell the absurd doctrines, which they never or have lung ek plodcd ; anti while you call upon' them to swear, you deny that any credit is tOliC paid to their oath, beeAuse in some Council, either ot Lateran or ot Constance, some - such absutd opinion may have been started. Could such mons - mitts itt;itaiittieS be tenet" to for a moment, not only should you nut concede what the Catholics now, solicit, but you should. immediately recall what has already been granted, and devise every pocsihle means to drive them out of every well constituted Goverment, Yet if ever these were a shadow of ground for the exist. once of such notiorrs, with whilt SAi l io. could arty of your Lordships have gone to the C4itA of the arts, where that oi)ifti•)11 might be aopposeJ tee have most (PRICE SIXPENCE. powerfully prevailed. Rut there wai no entertain.' log such absurd notions with -seri ousness . If t h e body of the Rernin Catholics and, their loyalty' are fairly brought under such an. iniputation, where was their defence to be sought for ? To disprove such a chart' I have only to turn to the. Statutes, my Lords, to the declarations repeatedly made the • - preambles of the Bills ;sassed in their faVour by the Irish Parliament. It was there again' and again acknowledged, that the favours granted to them a were the consequence and reward. of their loyal. tyy, and exemplary condua. True—but I may be told that their loyalty had b.!en eoospicuoutt down to the period of the Rabell,9o.—flut surely nothing could •be more uojost than to aim: pure the Rebellitin , to. them , as Catholics. That Inure or less of the Catholics may have been en.. gaged in the -Rebellion may be true; fiar bola; could a rebellion rage in .a cauntry, three.fohrha whose population were Catholic% ssotaeo. , , them haaiog been engaged io it.' L aik oil their condor} ie the two Rebellions which t aok:place in r 7 t and I 74. e ; the ohjea. of theta w d s to dettirane the present Family, and to reiost ice rhelsciled. King. Yet look to the history af the times, and k will shew you altar the Catholics were engaged in neither, although the olojeaaa was to re. instate a Cat"ic k also to the A,neri. can War; did. not the Enemy then hover on oar Coast, and frequently threaten Invasion ; yet the loyalty of the Catholics . wag not then qaestioned • so far otherwise, arms were entrusted to their hands to :repel the attack. I now speak in the . hearing ,or iscany NOble Lords who have. been Lards Lieutettanta and.See:retaries to Lords Li ma _ flatus in that Country, and I am bold to ask them, on what, occasion have the body of the Catholics been found disaffeaed to Government ?, If this.be the case with what colour of justice can .the late Rebellion be called Catholic ? It Must he Uaiver.a sally known that the gebellion cannot be traced to that saurce, but to . an unfortunate Contbioation of die circutnstances of the times and of toe country. Were the leaders of that Rebellion Catholics ? Were they not United hishmeo a which .signifies a co.ope. , ration of different seas ? Were not the heads of that Rebellion rather proved to be Protestants. Indeed that event was wholly uncenneaed' with religion,. but had fur its Oita!' al u . the overthrow of the Coestitution, and of' the • Monarchi. If then the Rebellion cannot be imputed -to the Catholics,; if, 0n,,, the contrary, the most dia. tinguished among diem were the most forward to run.every hazard, r , exhibit every possible syinP., tom of the most ardent zaal, with what face c oa the guilt of the P,4lltAtiun hu cl,.!gtiv..tl up.An file l : atlto. Pies; and how unjustly, on the contrary, is it ad. vanced as a reason for (feint v n three.fourtha of a people of the enjoyment of those privileges to which they :nay have the fairest claim. After such proofs in favour of their loyalty, of their attachment to' the Constitution, and their 'Clog, for so many years; after the testbnonies oaid to both by the declaration of the Irish Par. •liament, yourather balieve the abjured doarines on which they had been said to aet, and which, if they ,could he supposed to listen to, would stamp them .as a descriptiota of men dis. qualified by Gad and Nature for all purposes of Civil Government ?•—Bat it' has atao been ob.. jetted to. the . Petition, that it was signed only by Laymen, ,and that it was not attested by single 'Priest ; out,. on the Contrary, that all the Priests disclaimed the doarines it set ,forth.— This, notwithstanding, I can well assure you is by no means the fa& The only reason why it has not been Signed by the eatholid Clergy that the ob.. jeers it aims at . are all civil rights - , and that : these Clergy did not think 'themselves called upon to pe. titian for what they were tint entitled to. far from *being true that the Catholic. Clergy dis. cl a imed any 'thing belonging to the Petkion, it might Cosily be . prayed from the •recorda aif the Courts of Law, that. their Prelates had oaken the oaths prescribed, . to them, and npt only had they taken these oaths themselves, but it was well known that 'they had,. ihoreover, exhorted their Clergy to follow their example, who were. found as ready to "take the - oaths as the laymen. But, a st ill more convincing argument that, all .the rest has been said to be urged against the cause of the .Peti. (Milers. It is argued, that the• time is now come that the Catholics moat heal! traitors,since the Poo has been preVailed on to Cusae to'F l 4 ris a n d to crown. Bonaparte. They are all now booml to be the wit. ling Subjects, of Frarice, siocc the Pope has conic. crated, him. Such trifling, my Lords, it woeld, advertstirely b to, e weredisrespectfulitnot to t yourtiotr L uethoaridisrhisps even Vatib to the means of such naanstrous absurdities that attempts . were made not only to reviircithe animosities which prevailed in Ireland, ,hut to extend them to this Country. No setisible man C ou ld sup p ose that such absurdities were intended to convince ; their objedt was to raise • a clamour and a riot, in tar. der to prevent our doing justice In a numeroui and respettable class of our fetluw-sobjetta. Is the Pope inure connected with France now than he was in the time of the B orisons ? Or is he more • inclined to support the power of France than betote? The contrary was known to be the case, and there wart rin man who rightly interpreted his feel. -ings, but must acknowledge that his feelings must have been- those of humiliation and mortification, influence ,was certainly less than perhaps that of any of the Pontiff? who had ever filled tint Papal Chair; and even had it been greater, it could not have the' tendency imputed to hire, after his peraon and his religion had been so exhi. and led captive in that ni.lst dishonour.. able and degrading transaction. Away then with all such unmeaning absurdities, a fat from elzdit.