The Sun. — London, England, 1837-05-23 00:00:00

as it not likely that timberless petitions on the subject of the deepest importance. The more OIL 'ches that were would have been presented to that House ? According to the required the more did it show the extent of the ignorance lion. Gentleman, there were eleven millions of Churchmen and that was overcome by the knowledge that was im.ehrted. three millions of Dissenters ; but in what class would he place Mr. 13AINE S said that the Hon. Member ts ,so had just those who wished to go neither to Church nor Meeting-houses ? down had alluded to a petition presented by him (Mr. He had told them that the Methodists were in favour of Church- Baines) on the subject of Church-rates. That petition rates, but he ( Mr. B.) denied the fact, and asked whether peti- was certainly passed at a meeting at which he had presided, tions hsd not been presented from that body against their con- but the chairman had been outvoted on that occasion, and einuence ? Only that night eleven petitions from persons con- from that day to the present a similar petition had not been fleeted with that body had been presented to the House by the adopted. Ree. Member for Weymouth, and vet the lion. Gentleman Mr. HUNIE said that there were two evils admitted : one 101,1 them that the Methodists were opposed to the Ministerial was, the payment of Church-rates by individuals not in con plan. This was a somewhat ingenious statement of the case. nection with the Church of England ; the other, the want of It was tic) doubt true that that body hid not as yet expressed Church room and accommodation to those who were not pro ern: opleion on the subject. They should, however, recol- visled with religious instruction. He did not think that the , lest that the 'Methodists never acted without an instruction lion. Member below him ( Mr. A. Johnston) ought to have from their conference. No ictimation on this subject had yet brought forward his proposition regarding the latter of these been given, hut from his own knowledge he was prepared to questions until the first had been disposed of. He would say that a large proportion of the Methodists were friendly to therefore intreat the Hon. Member to withdruw his motion. the Ministerial treasure.—( Hear, from the Ministerial side.) The question of Church accommodation was not that which s 'lle eas glad to find that the Methodists were now spoken of they had met to consider, and by persevering with his amend in that House %%WI respect, although he could remember the ment the Hon. Member for St. Andrew's would only interfere time a h e ,, they were treated with contumely, and he must say with the main question before them. The Ecclesiastical Coin they had dons. more in the way of communicating religious in- missioners had certainly admitted the deficiency of Church ac strUction to the people than almost any other body of men. commodation ; but it was doubtful, if that accommodation was Mr. A. JOHNSIT.PN, in explanation, was happy to be set provided, it would be occupied by Churchmen. The question right by t h e u m el em ,,hr for Leeds as to the sentiments of they had to deal with at present was not how they should ap the Dissenters. Wh at h e hnnl said he had stated on the au- ply the surplus, but by what means they could most effectually thority of common repost (Cuie, of " Oh, oh," from the Mi- raise it.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It had been said that the nisterial Benches l--and the language uj their own petitions to Dissenters entertained a desire for the separation of the th a t eleuse, declaring with their own hai:de the sentiments Church and the State. He had attended many of their meet which he had attributed to them.—( Cheers fr,711 the Oppo- rigs, and he found that such an opinion was scouted by them ; sition Benches.) What he had said with respect to the but he knew that amongst them was entertained a strong and Wesleyan Methodists he had stated on the author:iv of a decided opinion for the abolition of Church-rates, so far as gentleman connected with that body, who had assured }rim concerned the Dissenters, and to that alone they turned their that the petitions sent up from Gravesend and other places by attention. They objected much less to the amount of Church members of that body had not been sanctioned by the Society rates than to the principle on which they were exacted. The generally in the localities from whence those petitions pro- Hon. Member for Bradford had talked a great deal about a eceded, budget which he quoted from the Leeds Mercury, but why did Mr. HARD Y was understood to deny that the Dissenters the Hon. Member avoid all mention of a petition signed by were not anxious to procure a separation of Church and State, 19,000 of the inhabitants of the borough which he represented? and to express his entire concurrence in what his Hon. Friend , The Hon. Member had said that if every individual paid 3d., (err. A. Johnstone) had said on that subject. Now he had, on it would create a fund more than sufficient for all purposes. a cos mer occasion, asked the lion. Member for Leeds what was But it did not matter whether the payment was 3d. or 6d., if meant by the union formed among the Dissenters, unless it were the individual considered it a work of degradation to which he th e se paras;on of Church and State ? At the time he received ought not to submit. no reply • his question was subsequently answered by a Mr. A. JOHN; TON said a few words in explanation. We 3, , bur : newspaper, over which he believed the Hon. Member for Leeds understood him not to agree to the proposition of the Hon. possessed some influence. In that paper it was stated that the Member for Middlesex. union of the Dissenters consisted in their wishing to have cer- Mr. BO EITHWICK differed widely from the opinions of lain emoluments taken away from the established religion, and the Hon. Member for Middlesex as to the business before to eff'eet that sort of separation between Church and State them, Ilse questioe they had to deal with was, not whether which would prevent any one sect from obtaining grants of pub- the revenues tetiich the Chancellor of' the Exchequer thought lie money more than another. It was clear from this, that the he could create cou:e' be created co riot, but the question was object of the Dissenters was to divide the property which now whether, supposing those revenues created, they ought to be belonged to the Established Church, with a view to its gene- applied to given purposes, or not? He had heti the ho ral distribution among all other sects; and yet, notwithstand- Dour of laying on the table several petitions from different ing this statement, the Hon. Member for Leeds told tinter parts of the country, and they all concurred in one prayer for that it was not the object of the Dissenters to procure a the maintenance of Church-rates, and a strong expression of separation between Church and State.—(Hear.) But the dissatisfaction at the conduct of' his Majesty , * Ministers. The Hon. Member for Leeds said that there was no wish on the Hon. Member for Leeds had said that there were five er six mil part of the Dissenters to make any such attempt.—( Hear, lions of people in theeountry who did not wish to go to tine ES bear.) lie held in Iris hand a paper which he thought would tablished Church; but wax that a reason that they were so be conclusive against the statement of the Hon. Member for have no regard for religious instruction ? The principle of a Leeds, but he would read it to the House, and leave them to national Church was that, by the truths le taught, and the say whether the object which at all events the political Dissen- morality which it propagated, it should assist list tise ,establish ters had in view was not the separation of Church and State. ment and promotion of low and order. In this country ap It was well known that in this town there was a united Corn- Established Church had existed lopg before the name of Dia. mittee sitting, in which the great body of the Dissenters were sent was known, and that Establishment teas supported at the represented. He held in his hand the report of the resolutions expense of the country. He knew that the /light Hon. passed on a recent occasion. The Hon. Member then read Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said them the resolutions. Now, if any Honourable Gentleman would that he was as much disposed to support the Established have taken the trouble to look at the petitions coming Church as any Member at his (Mr. Bortiovick's) side of the from Dissenters, which had from time to time been laid House, and the Right Hon. Gentleman had assured them that before them, they would' there have found the separa- the plan which he brought forward was calculated to etreerigthen tion of Church and State insisted on as his Honourable the Established Church. 'lt would be unfair not to take it for Friend (Mr. A. Johnstone) had stated, but be was granted that the Right Hon. Gentleman was sincere in what willing to admit that of late these parties had found it cape he stated; but he would defy the Right, Hon. Gentleman, client to adopt another and a better line of policy.—(Hear.) either by himself or any of his supporters, to chow that the He asked whether, during the present Session, a petition had National Establishment would not be weakened by tire adop not been presented to that House from the Dissenters of Leeds, tion of the proposed measure. The ground on which the in which it was said—" As the objection to Church-rates is Right Hon. Gentleman consented to relieve the Dissenters founded mainly on their unjust principle, no measure will be in from the payment of Church -rates, was because they had con the least satisfactory which does not entirely, in substance as scientious objections to their payment, and that to force that well as in form, remove the burden from the Dissenters."— payment was an interference with conscience. Now he (Loud cheers,) Before the meeting from which this petition thought that argument would apply equally to relief from every proceeded, the following paragraph appeared in the number of species of taxation whatever. Would the Right Hon. the the newspaper to which he had already adverted, of the 2eth Chancellor of the Exchequer consent to exempt him (Mr. March :—" The borough of Leeds will meet on Tuesday next, Borthwick) from taxation, because a portion of the public re at twelve o'clock, to raise its voice once more against that un- venues were applied to the support of the war in Spain, to just and vexatious impost, Church-rates, and in favour of the which he was strongly opposed?—(Hear.) Would be, on the admirable measure proposed to Parliament by his Majesty's same principle, exempt the Quakers from taxation, because a Ministers, for removing for ever a grievance from the Dissenters, portion of the national revenues went to the support of war, to and a source of contention and odium from the Establishment. which they were conscientiously opposed? But the Right We hope that every man who wishes to support the Govern- Hon. Gentleman asserted a principle against the Church merit against the designs of the Tories, and to prevent the High which he neither dared nor could introduce into any other Church party from putting their foot on the neck of the Dis- part of his financial policy, and he did so because he knew that senters, will feel it his bounden duty to attend this meeting. the mouth of the Church was stopped, and that it could not It is expected that the mayor will preside ; and it is hoped speak out, The Clergy were 'placed in a sinrilar position ; that the Liberal candidates for the borough, both of whom they could not effectually raise their voices against the pro have supported the Ministerial measure in Parliament, will be posed measure. He might say to the Right Hun. Gentleman present. Church-rates are obnoxious, on different grounds, opposite, in tho words of the immortal poet : to three great divisions of' the people. They are objected to. " Oh, 'tis excellent first, by many Dissenters, whose consciences forbid them to To have a giant's strength ; but it is tyrannous support forms of worship or doctrines which they do not be- To use it like a giant." lieve to be Scriptural, or to pay any compulsory tax for the lie might continue the quotation, and the Right Hon. Gen. support of religion ; secondly, by nearly all the rest of the tleman could judge if it did not apply to the case under consi• Dissenters, who, though they have no conscientious scruples deration : to the payment, feel it to be unjust and wrongful to compel " Could great men thunder them to support a Church from which they derive no benefit, As Jove himself does, Jove would ne'er be quiet ; whilst they maintain their own worship unassisted ; and, For every pelting petty officer thirdly, by a great number of Churchmen, some of whom dis- Would use his Heaven for thunder: nothing but thunder— approve of Church-rates as unjust, and others feel that the Merciful Heaven I contentions produced by them disgrace and weaken the Es- Thou rather, with tiny sharp and sulphurous bolt, tablishment." Another petition to the same effect, signed by Split'st the unwedgable and gnarled oak 19,000 persons, had been presented to that House from the Than the soft myrtle. Oh, but man, proud man I place which he had the honour to represent, by Iris Honour- Drest in a little brief authority— able Colleague. He held in his hand one of the handbills Most ignorant of what he's most assured-- which had been distributed, and with the leave of the House His glassy essence—like an angry ape he would real it, in order to show how such petitions were got Plays such fantastic tricks before high Heaven up. The Hon. Gentleman then read as follows :—" A long As make the Angels weep." pull—a strong pull—and a pull altogether."—(A l a u g h.) H e wou ld no t say that the Right Hon. Gentleman should be " To the Rate-payers in the parish of Bradford. termed one " drest in brief authority ;" but he certainly looked " A public meeting is to be held on Monday next, at twelve as if he was more anxious to assail the myrtle than the gnarled o'clock at noon, agreeably with a requisition most numerously oak. The Right lion. Gentleman was desirous to change the and respectably signed, in The Holme, Thornton-road, Brad- present system of Church Rates, because Dissenters were unwil ford, for the purpose of petitioning both Houses of Parlia- ling to endure the burthen of paying them. But, in Iris opinion, ment, to abolish the t obnoxious impost' of Church -rates, all classes of persons, whether Dissenters or not, were bound and to express its entire satisfaction with the measure an- to contribute to the support of the Established Church. Con nounced by his Majesty's Government—a measure, which, scientious scruples must go for nothing in arguing th e ques while it proposes ent i re re li e f to a ll c l asses o f Di ssenters, from t i on. T he C hurch of England well dserved the support. of an impost at once vexatious to the Dissenter, and degrading every class of men, for she was the mother of freedom in to the Church, secures also undiminished and inviolate the western Europe, and-had mainly contributed to the overthrow interests of all parties sharing the revenues of the Episcopal of sacerdotal usurpation. It was to her that Dissenters owed Establishment. Fellow-parishioners, upwards of one thou- tire rights they now enjoyed, and it was but just that they sand rate-payee—Churchmen and Dissenters—in one parish, should contribute to her support. The Bill now before the the parish of Kensington, who have determined not to pay House did not, in fact, strike so much at tire Established Church-rates, have lately been summoned before the magic- Church as at every form of government whatever, whether trates, and against several hundreds of them distress warrants monarchical or oligarchical, or even republicans. The measure are immediately to be issued. Do you sympathise with them ? involved and recognised the principle that a few might object Are you willing to have your liberties thus trampled upon— against any part of the Constitution, and that their prayers the sanctity of your dwellings invaded—distress warrants is- might be attended to. The question then for tho House to sued against you, arid your property seized and sold in violation decide was, whether it would be right and justifiable to listen of the dearest right of every true-born Englishman, the right to the demands of the Dissenters or refuse them. He cer of liberty of conseience—and that every man's house is his tainly would be better satisfied in opposing the mealure castle ?, You indign an tly re ply — never , never , never. Th en b rought forward by Government if he was acquainted with the noon of Bradford, Horton, Bowling, Bierley Manningham, plan of the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth. The Thornton, Eccleshill, Haworth, Wilsden, and Shipley, be amendment of the Hon. Member for St. Andrew's obviated at your post on Monday, at twelve o'clock, to testify your many difficulties arising from the Ministerial plan ; and the hearty attachmenteo liberty of conscience—to the immutable Hon. Gentleman deserved the gratitude of the country for the principles of justice, and to the peace and unity of all classes pains he had taken, and the ability he had displayed in bring of Iris Majesty's subjects. Britons never will he slaves."— ing it forward. The amendment got rid of the awkwardness (Renewed laughter and cries of " Hear, hear.") Such was arising from no counter plan being proposed at that side of the the appeal made to this people of the borough which he had House. The principle that the amendment laid down was' the honou r t o r e p rese nt and its neighbourhood, and all he that all the Church revenues should be collected for specific could say was, tenet if such an appeal had not enlisted their purposes, and that the funds should be applied to the reli feelings and roused their spirit of patriotism he should have gious education of the people when it was found necessary. been very much surprised. Indeed his only astonishment was The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite desired to have the funds that a petition for doing away with such grievances as were raised from Bishops' leases. What justice was there, he described in this handbill had not been signed, not by nine- would ask, in meddling with the property of the Bishops? teen thousand only, but by ten times that number.—( Hear, Justice was the word most frequently employed by Hon. Gen hear.) , The Dissenters said that their main cause for oppos- tlemen. opposite, ing this tax was its injustice. They had designated the sys- "Te veniente die, to decedente canebant." tern of Church-rates a s a system of robbery and spoliation. But what justice was there in depriving the Bishops of their Now, with respect to the plea of conscience which was put for. legal revenues ? Here were Peers, not hereditary, but ar ward, he did not know how they could resist the payment riving at their high merit and attainments to be stripped of and continuance of Church-rates on this ground. He could their property, simply because the Dissenters were averse to well conceive how a demand, though consistent with the the present system. Isle could not reconcile such conduct law of the land, might be conscientiously resisted by with the cry of justice so often sent forth by Hon. Gentlemen an individual who considered it inconsistent with the law on tire other side. The abolition of Church-rates would, in of God ; but here was a demand sanctioned by the law of his opinion, not p r ov e a re li e f t o any party . H e was t h erefore the land —co ns i s t en t w i t h t h e l aw o f G o d —and established for I opposed to the measure and-its principles, and he had sufficient the promotion of religious instruction and the advancement of I confidence in the good feeling of th e H ouse t o h ope t h at i t twenty, and he did not see on w h at plea of' conscience any i might never become law.—( Hear.) one was entitled to resist a system established for that purpose Mr. L AMBTON, although he cordially approved of the when that system was consonant with the law of God: With principle of abolishing the payment of Church-rates, must respect to the injustice of the payment of Church -rates, were object to the terms upon tvhich the Chancellor of the Ex. they imposed on the Dissenters as Dissenters, as a tax for chequer proposed to deal with the lessees of Church lands conscience sake? No such thing. These rates existed before as most harsh and unjust. Although the holders of Church Dissent was known, Those who resisted Church-rates put their leases had, perhaps, no legal ground to demand their re opposition upon the principle that they were obliged to contribute moval, they had certainly always considered themselves, to the support of their own Ministers. Now, he did not see and had, he believed, moreov•r, been very generally consi the force of that position, for upon the very same ground dered by others, to have a strong equitable claim to it. might a man urge that he ougi e t to be relieved from the pay- Under these considerations, Church lands held by law had ment of Poor's-rates, because he contributed from his private for centuries been made the subject of family settlements, means to the relief of a number of the poor. He would be and large sums of money had been continually laid out ready to sUrPort the amendment of his Hon. Friend if he had upon them by the holders. The Church lessees, therefore, shaped his motion differently—if, instead of saying, " Where- had a very strong claim to Parliamentary attention in Any as, It is the opinion of the House that funds may be derived thing which might be done at all affecting their interests, from an improved mode of managing Church lands"—lris I and he trusted justice would b e d one to t h em . I t h a d Honourable Friend had shaped his motion in this way, " if been said at the close of the last debate on this subject, any funds can be derived from an improved mode of managing that the principle proposed in the present measure was the rThureh lands, such funds should be applied to religious in- same as that which had been acted upon in the case of the stroctron within the Established Church." He (Mr. Hardy) Durham University. Now, this I.e begged to deny. It had would have no hesitation to support a proposition, that if such been tried, but found to be impossible to apply these terms to funds could be raised, they should be applied t o t h e p urposes o f t h e l an d s ment i oned in the schedule of that Act. In some religi ous iostructien ; but he did not admit that any such funds cases it had been found that the lands were worth twenty years' could be raised. The Hon. and Learned Gent. referred to the purchase ;in others the value had varied from eight to thirteen ease of Lady Howley's clarity, and proceeded to contend that the years' purchase ; and in one case, where the property was dis- Dissenters, whateeer objection they might have to the payment advantageously situated, it had been found to be worth only of Church -rates, had no objection whatever to endowments. four and a half years' purchase.—( Hear, hear.) Now, if this Let them look, for instenee, at the .Regium Domum, which were true, which, according to the statement which he held in for upwards of a century haj with great advantage to them hie hand, it undoubtedly was, he must say that the terms pro been dispensed to the poorer li;,ssenting,- Clergy. Though posed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought not tote some political Dissenters objected to that and to another graut, adopted, at least in regard to all such property as that in yet he believed that a large portion of the Dissenting Clergy eluded in the schedule of the Durham iJnuiversity Act. He looked to this grant as of real advantage and benefit to them. would not, however, go farther into detail upon this branch of It was admitted that there were an immense number of per- the subject, trusting that justice would eventually be done sons in the country without the means of religious instruction, to the lessees of Church lands. Before he sat down he but if they were to afford that instruction, where were they to would say a few words to the principle involved in the PA i• t afford it. but through the means of the N a ti o n a l Ch urc h ? L et quest i on b efore them.—(Hear, hear.) He must say, that -- s 2 .e, -them have the national temples of their religion in which the he thought ,the Dissenters came before Parliament with very -- ,e- minion, as a nation, might wo rs hip G o d. L et t h em a ff or d to strong cla i ms to its generous and cordial support. They S es, elheir national Church the means of teaching and spreading asked the Legislature to do away with an impost ag a i ns t wide amongst the peopl e t h at re li g i ous k now l e d ge wh i c h was tilt:ivory principle a wbich, T;99TO ;hag ;h9 ,rpogqt, the, felt • , a stron g and conscientious object. on. They had rested their claims upon arguments—they had proved their case in a way which had as yet remained unanswered by those who opposed the concession they required. With respect to the amend ment of the Hon. Member near him, if he refused his assent to that proposition, it was because he felt confident that the subject of education must soon be brought before the House in a distinct and substantive form befitting its importance. He hoped that Government would very soon be prepared to bring forward a comprehensiess measure upon this subject, in full accordance with the spirit of the age, and founded on a truly • Christian basis of religious toleretion.—(Cheers.) Such a measure, when it was proposed, he had no doubt would meet with the support of the majority of the people at large and of that House. Mr. TWI S S contended that if there were to arise any sur plus out of the present revenues of the Church, it should be applied to the building of additional Churches for the countless millions who, according to the Report of the Church Com missioners, were absolutely without the means of religious in struction. To ascertain the true intention with which this measure was demanded and urged on, it was only necessary to refer to the petitions which had been presented in favour of it. Some of these petitions, fur instance, objected to the pay ment of Church -rates, because, in the language of the yeti ' tioners, it involved a principle at the very root of the connec tion between Church and State, a connection whi c h the de nominated a great evil. An o th er set of petitioners objected co Church-rates because they were contrary to the doctrine f the voluntary principle, si hich they wished to see este biis‘lail throughout the country; and all the petitioners, after a variety of hostile expressions against the Church Establish ment, declared their resolute intention to use every con stitutional effort to overthrow a state of things and to abolish a principle which they conceived to be so unjust and so injurious. These petitions, therefore, were sufficient to show the an;nrus and ultimate object with which the present mea sure was espoused by the Dissenters. Now, with respect to the law up in this subject. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, on introduc HEr, :t to the House, said that when a vestry met for the purpose of making a rate for the repair of the Church they had power to refuse it if they pleased. It was certainly the case that the vestry, iii meeting to determine a rate for ihs repair of the Church, had a right to estimate what those repairs required ; but they were not justified in re fusing a rate altogether, and leaving the Church unrepaired. His Hon. and Learned Friend the Attorney-General, in arguing the question on a former occasion, said there was no law to compel a vestry to levy a Church-rate, and defied any Hon. Member to point out a case in which the Court of King's Bench had granted a mandamus for that purpose. The Attorney-General then quoted the case of the King against Bedford, and gave a part of the judgment of the Court, but unfortunately omitted the latter and more import ant part, in which the judges gave it as their opinion that it was a subject of purely ecclesiastical jurisdiction.—(Hear.) The judges thereby intimated that there was a remedy, and pointed put where the remedy was to be found. It was said the Dissenter.; did pot so much look to the amount of the rate as the principle on which It was levied. They refused to pay the money, it was said, from scruples of conscience; but he was inclined to think that the scruples arose rather from a wish tp ha relieved from the burden of a money payment, and, in hia opinion, it had become a question whether they were cheating the Dissenters or the Church, or cheating both one and the other.—(Near.) By the old law, every person possessed of an' ac re of l an d or any tenements was bound to contribute to the repairs of the Church. Th e Church-rate was a tax, not on all the parishioners, but on those whg ITN lands and tenements, and those who had no such occupancy warp not 11010 to it. It wits a burden, in fact, attached to property kilt as much so as if he had purchased a piece of land on condition of paying a Dissenting Olergyinen ?Ma a year out of it for ever; and those who refused to pay Qharch-rates might, on the same principle, argue that he might get rid of the payment of this armpit'', though it was one of the conditions of the pnrchase, He might just as well say, that from scruples of conscience ha refused to pay the Dissenting Clergyman, and was therefore entitled to depart from the obligation, and retain the whole of the property. Most erroneous statements bad also been made as the number of Dissenters. The Hon. Member for Mid, diciest *aid they were more numerous than the members of the Established Church,. bet a newspaper which repre sented that body—the Poti4o—made them amount only to one million, exclusive of the Wesleyan,; and by an other computation they were made to amount to be tween 1,106,000 and 1,200,000. That circumstance—name ly, the great disproportion of the numbers belonging to the two parties, neighed with his Majesty's Ministers in 1134, and induced them to oppose the Motion of the Hon. Member for Exeter. Lord Althorp, after that mo tion was rejected, introduced a plan infinitely preferable to the present one ; but the Dissenter; raised an outcry against it, and it Was in consequence withdrawn. Let them look at the different course pursued by the Government now, as compared with that adopted by them in 1834. The Dissenters opposed the plan of 1834, arid the Government abandoned It. In 1837 the members of the Established Church opposed the Ministe rial plan ; the Dissenters approved of it, and the Ministers per severed in ILL.( Hear.) According to Lord Althorp's 13ill, Church-rates were not to be abolished unless a substitute was proviJed out of the funds of the itate, and to that he de clared he adhaved, and intended to adheres but now An equi valent was to be given to the Church out of funds which were already her own. So, in 44 Ministers in , 1837 abandoned their pledge and the Church at ties game time. They said formerly there was no surplus, yet they now told the House they had discovered a new plan for raiding the money out of the funds of the Church, Was that wrung from them by the Dissenters ? What was the cause? Was it that a new light had broke in upon the subject, or was it the precarious situation of Ministers ?—(Hear, hear.) Was that a vital question which might affect the Ministry ? Last June a meeting took place between the Ministry and their supporters, and though the Government was not too tender to the insti tutions of the country, he would do them the justice to say that they were goaded into the measure by their supporters. They had been told that the voice of the majority ought to be attended to on all great questions. Were religons questions to he an exception to the general rule, and was the minority now to overrule the majority ? Ile perfectly remembered that when the repeal of the Test and Corporation Act had been urged in that House, it was said by one of the most respect able leaders of the dissenting body, who was a Member of that House—he meant the late Mr. William Smith—that the Dis senters would be perfectly satisfied with that repeal; and that it would heal all the religious differences which had existed fur so many years. But scarcely had the Bill for repealing that Act passed when other grievances were put forth by the' Dissenters for which they claimed racism, Demand followed dernan, until now it was sought to establish what was called the voluntary principle—a principle which, if established, would lead to the abandonment of all religion, by leaving the people without the means of access to any religious instruc tion whatever. But in these liberal and enlightened times it was held that the people had no need of religious instruction. A century and a half ago the Establishment tolerated Dis seuters ; but in these liberal and enlighted times the Dis senters refused to tolerate the Establishment.—( Cries of " hear, hear, hear.") At present the poorest subject of the realm had the means of worshipping at the altar of his God. Let not Parliament deprive him of that privilege. After he had toiled for six days, l e t hi m no t o n th e sevenths be debarred from the enjoyment of that consolation and encouragement which religion afforded to all. Instead of diminishing, they ought to increase his opportunities of con firming himself in those tenets of faith which were " the means of grace and the hope of glory."---( Haar.) The SOLICITOR-GENERAL observed, that his Hon. and Learned Friend who had just sat down complained that the debate had wandered from the point at issue. Much more reason had he (the Solieitor.:General) to make such a com plaint, when he had to answer an elaborate oration which might have been made by a Catholic Bishop to the French Convention. His Honourable and Learned Friend seemed to think that Isis Majesty's Government were occupying a false position ; and maintained that, with language in their mouths breathing love and affection to the Church, they were constantly leaning to the voluntary principle ; and that they manifested that leaning in every sentiment they uttered, and in every principle they brought forward. In or der to bear out his statements on that point, his Hon. and Learned Friend had had recourse to papers, proceedings whence he (the Solicitor-General) knew not ; and to peti tions couched, . according even to his Hon. and Learned Friend's own description, "in rhetorical flourishes." What was the sole foundation,of his Hon. and Learned Friend's ar gument ? His Hon. and Learned Friend seemed to think that the measure under the consideration of the House, whe ther good or bad, was an approach to what he called the vo luntary principle. Now, by-a Church Establishment, he (the Solicitor- General) uederstood a Church which the poor man might visit without charge, which was provided for him. By the voluntary principle, he understood a Church which every man must provide for himself.--( Hear, hear, hear.) N ow, in what way could his H onoura bl e an d Learned Friend point out how a Church kept up by one fund approached more nearly to the voluntary principle than a Church kept up by another fund ? His Hon. and Learned Friend contended that the false position of his • Majesty's Government was evinced by the humble tone of the law officers of the Crown ; and he had observed that his Hon. and Learned Friend the Attorney-General had so high a professional reputation that he could afford to lose the portion of legal character which his assertion that there were no means of compelling a parish to raise a Church•rate, would deprive him. Now, he (the Soli citor-General) begged leave to take his full share of the re sponsibility which attached to that opinion. He believed that there were no rights to compel the raising of those rates, because there was a remedy against their being raised, ex cept, perhaps, that proceedings might be instituted in the Ecclesiastical Court, by the punishment of the individuals who refused to concur in the rite, An Honourable and Learned Friend of his, whom he did riot see in his place, the Honourable Member for Cardiff, had stated on a recent oc casion that ho was in possession of certain manuscripts, which established the fact that in early times the law sanc tioned the doctrine that when the parish refused to make a rate the churchwarden might make it himself. If that were really the law, all difficulty on the subject would be se moved. But it was certainly very extraordinary that in the numerous discussions which this sabjei:t had undergone no one had before ventured to assert that such was the law, There was this fallacy which ren through all the debates on thi s measure. It was assumed by those who opposed it that it was intended solely for the relief of the Dissenters. That he never would admit. Whether the measure was right, or whether the measure was wrong, it must be generally allowed that experience had shown that these Chula-rates had al ways been the cause of great scandal to the phgrch, That admitted—it being acknowledged that the evil was a great one—tha question Was how it was to be got rid of? Why, it could be got rid of Dill/ hy the alaulitirm of church-rates; In what did his Noble Friend propose to abolish OM if WA§ i; no: by the substitution of a fund adequate to the purpose, and which might justly be resorted to ? Parliament could in no way show itself more friendly to the Church establish ment—it could in no way secure to that establishment a more immediate and permanent benefit—than by removin , ' the scandal inseparable from Church-rat es . Th e N o bl e Member for Lancashire had on a former occasion admitted that any ecclesiastical propeity which was found to be superfluous might he applied to State purposes. He (the Solicitor-General) did not go so far. But he maintained that it might be em ployed in some other manner for the interests of the Church. His Hon. and Learned Friend who had just spoken had com mented on what he called the change of opinion on the part of his Noble and his Right Hon. Friends which had taken place since the year 1834, when he said the lion. and Learned Member for Exeter proposed a measure exactly similar to the present; but which his Noble Friend and his Right Hon. Friend then opposed. Now, the measure proposed at that pe riod by the Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter was so far from beir * , a measure exactly s i m il ar to t h e present, that it was only half that measure. The measure proposed by the Honourable and Learned Member for Exeter in 1834 went to abolish Church-rates, but did not provide any substitute. He thought that making the charge of Church-rates payable out of the Consolidated Fund was even better than the present system. He would say, however, that for the attainment of the great object which they had in view, they should overlook all minor differences. It mattered not whether Church rates were a tax or not, they should not allow it to be felt as a tax ; and therefore it was that the Right Hon. Baronet had said it was his intention to get rid of the impost of Church -rates, which brought the Church into discredit, because it was con. sidered a great practical grievance, the effect of which was to keep in a state of alienation the Churchmen and Dissenters. A remedy then must be found, and, as he believed that re medy was to be found in the proposition which had been sub mitted to the House by his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he should most conscientiously vote for it. He believed that though its practical effect might not be to aug ment the stipends of the Church livings, still it would put an end to those disgraceful brawls which so often occurred on the question of Church-rates, Sir FRANCIS BUftDETT rose and was greeted by the most enthusiastic cheers. from his (the Tory) side of the House, and, indeed, so vehement were the cheers that we lost the closing passages of many of the Hon. Baronet's sentences. The Hon. Baronet commenced by observing that it might appear a little presumptuous in him to differ in opinion with a great and able lawyer, holding office under the Government, on the subject of law. Yet as he recollected that common sense was the foundation of commor. law, and common law was the subject which the House had to deal with, he must own that he bad heard with surprise that Hon and Learned Gentleman declare that in England there could be an immemo rial and imprescriptible right, with no means for obtaining that right. If such were the fact, then he would say the Court of King's Bench were bound to find a remedy to redress such a wrong. With reference to the question before the House, he denied that there was any grievance on the part of Dissenters of this country in this matter. He must protest against such an assertion, and he must express with the greatest disgust his feeling at the pretension of conscience being brought forward, the fact being that, as soon as Church-rates affected their pockets, the consciences of those who op posed them immediately dictated that this was an unjust demand._( Hear, hear, hear.) He denied the justice of this pretence on the part of the Dissenters. The Dissenters who possessed property purchased that property with this contingency annexed to it. It was no personal tax. it had nothing whatever to do with religion, It was a debt due to others, which they ought not to take upon themselves to deal with. lie objected both to the resolution proposed, and to the amendment whlph had also been put; and more particularly to the latter, because it stood in the way to the giving a direct negative to a measure which was founded on the grossest in justice, which interfered with the rights of property, and with the usages of this country. Why, now then he would say, in justice to the Dissenters generally, that the Church-rates were opposed by a portion of the Dissenters only, and not by the whole body. The great and most respectable body or por tion of the Dissenters, it was well known, entertained no such scruples as those which were put forward on this question. He adverted to the Wesleyan Methodists, a body of men be tween whom and ourselves there was really so little difference-- a body of men who had so proved their sincere attachment to the Church of England, that opportunities should be made to include them with ourselves. He contended that the Wes leyana did not object to the payment of a just debt. Nay, he was persuaded they carried the matter further, and that th e y believed the mild, liber a l, an d to l erant Church of the coun try to be a gieat benefit to the country, and that all sects under its protection were bound by the greatest obligations for that utmost liberty which under different circumstances they could not find. Now, ho objected to the scheme itself, because it had been shown not only by an eminent lawyer, the Member for Ex e t er , b ut a l so b y t h e Honourable and Learned Gentleman the Member for Ripon —it had been unanswerably shown by those Hon. and Learned Gen tlemen that this measure was one of the grossest injustice ; that it subverted a large portion of the property of this country, and interfered, by the power of the Government, be tween the proprietors and lessees; that it violated the rights of property which had become so complicated by time and circumstances ; and he contended that the measure was not only one of injustice, but was inexpedient and utterly im practicable, He would say that this measure was inexpe dient ; and though be thought the proposition of Lord Althc k rp, which had been carried by a large majority, and -rnigl i t have settled this question, was preferable to this pre sent plan, even though it was still objectionable, yet he did not know why the country should be taxed for the sake of a number of political Dissenters.—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial sile.) The change of the plan was certainly for time worse. He should like to know how it would be likely (unless some new scheme of a Commission were devised, en tailing enormous expenses on the country, to see what was the state of the repairs of the Churches)—he should like to kno,v how the Church was to be kept up in repair so well or so economically as by the mode of law at present established, by which persons residing in the different parishes were in terested in seeing that the edifices did not go into a state of dilapidation, and who acted upon the principle that a stitch in time saved nine. It was impossible to suppose that if this expense were to be paid out of the public purse the Churches could be kept in a state of efficient repair. lie, therefore, thought the measure was impolitic; but he objected to it chiefly because it went to an Isolated object, and to affect the rights of property, for the small sum of 230,000/. He objected to the scheme, moreover, because he was satisfied it would be found to be impracticable, even by those who wished to pass the measure, which, he contended, had already been thrown out, if they looked to the consideration to be given to the opinion of the House as given on a former occasion, seeing that the majority was formed by placemen and adherents, who, even in olden times—(here the shouts and cheers from the Ministerial side of the House prevented our hearing the closing sentence.) When they saw the state of party in that House—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches) it was impossible for them to sanction this measure; they could have no confidence in his Majesty's Ministers. Would the House support them and look to them to uphold the institutions of the country ? He thought, on the contrary, they were a weak Ministry, who, though they could be impelled intq a course which led them to disavow that which they intended, yet hoped to reintroduce a measure which had been carried by only twenty-three. This did seem to him to be one of the most extraordinary circumstances and one of the most unjustifiable measures which had ever occurred in that House. But, for tunately, there was another House—(Loud and long-conti nued from the Ministerial side of the House)—there was a check and control upon that House, and therefore they might safely feel secured that this most mischievous, most unjust in principle, and most impolitic measure could not be proceeded with, and that it stood no chance whatever of being brought into practical effect. Early in this debate the Hon. Member for Leeds appeared to be exceedingly sensitive about the Dis senters, and he disclaimed everything opposed to what the Dissenters themselves put forward as their views, and he firmly denied that the Dissenters had any wish to subvert the Esta blished Church of this country. Did the Hon. Gentleman carry the whole body of Dissenters in his belly ?—(oh I and loud laughter and cheers.) At the same time he must do hint the justice to say that lie guarded himself against being supposed to express any opinion of his own. Now, when he spoke of the Dissenters, he would contend that it was not the Dissenters at large, but it was a small portion of political Dis senters, who addressed themselves to the House, and who were the discontented persons. But the most respectable person of all the Dissenting denominations did not join in this clamour. The Wesleyans did not take part in the clamour. There were some persons who petitioned that House, but their numbers were not formidable, numerically or otherwise. They made a great noise in the public papers and before that House, and he would tell them how' they had expressed themselves in one of their journals; and he would then leave the house to judge whether the Honourable Mem. ber for Leeds was or was not the best interpreter of their opinions, or of what the Di s s en t ers sa id t h emselves. The journal which he held in his hand was a dissenting paper pub lished in Birmingham, and it was dated the 9th of March last, when this plan had been made known. The writer said, Whilst we join in the general thanksgiving to his Majesty's Ministers, and to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, particu larly, let us not be understood as receiving it as a boon at their hands." When all the liberality of the English Church and of the English people was thus exercised, whatever they might do in kindness then was not to be regarded as a boon, though, before it was granted, it was called the greatest boon which could be conferred, and it was urged accordingly. When they got the object they aimed at, then they were to be told by the Dissenters it was no boon at all. But the writer further observed, "We only got rid of only,link of the chain of Church bondage ; let no man mix up the Church-rates with the Church question—the Church question has not yet been mooted." He recollected that the Hon. Member for Middlesex told the Dissenters to got some further footing, in order to get ground for putting down the Church. .4 But we give notiee to the Church men," continued this writer, " that as far as we are concerned we shall not the less earnestly seek the separation of Church and State," 4c. tend yet the lion. Member for Leeds said they did not wish for the separation of Church and State. He believed that there was not a great portion of the Dissenting body who did desire this ; but there was a pretence of consci entious scruples lately started wilioh he 44 slayer yet heard of before.-,(Heae, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) But the great writers--the Doddridges, the Baxters, the Robert Halle, and ethere—shad never 11-tamed of this conscientious scruple, and he doubted whether th - eir consciences ever al lowed them to imagine that when a just demand was made they should as honest men resist it. The writer to whom he had alltdcd in the .pissenting j ourna l th en gave t h em f a i r no. tice that the abolition of "f:,'4r4h- f ates al one wou ld' o e t satisfy thong.. Yore, then, was st` loft' of Intimidation ;" 414 Was the Howe c 9 dt? Ptit - -4 0. 0gc t @ 410(.14i1MM1 laws of the country to pacify persons of this description. who were unworthy of the notice of the. House of Commons ? Then the same journalist proceeded to say :—" But neither Church_ rates, nor the exclusion of Bishops from the House of Lords, will satisfy us; we require the Church of Eeglaill to be re duced to what she is—one of the sects." But was th it House to follow out this doctriae? This was the cant of patriot ism of the present day.—( Loud cheering from the Ministe rial benches.) What he believed was, that which every man of reflection must know, that if the every wish of a inaii were complied with, Providence could not provide a greater curse fur him. .He should liked to have aske , l, if he lied had the power of foreknowledge —he should liked to have asked those who, not with ulterior views, asked relief feoen the Test and Corporation Act, when the great bulk of the people thought tied necessary for their security, and were glad when the time had arrived when those shackles would he re moved with. safety as they thought—he should liked to have asked them whether they did not consider the repeal of the Test and Corporation Ail as a great boon ? But it seemed that now a boon was to he regarded in a different light when it was obtained. Gratitude, then, seemed to lose its effect, and to perish in its exertions. He did acquit the great body of Dissenters, as he did a great portion of the R iman Ca tholics, of taking part in that mischievous agitation which distracted Ireland. He did exemet from blan e all that en lightened portion of the Roman Catholics of agitation. He believed they detested it as much as any men could. But what sort of encouragement had the people of England to pursue the career of concesssion ? Thus they were told that the Roman Catholics were treated as peopl e who were re garded as the inhabitants of a country which had become ours by right of conquest. It any men thought that they were able to subvert the institutions of this country—if they thought to raise the spirit of this Protestant State, and to over turn the institutions and cowtitution of the country—they would find themselves grievously (he should say happily) mis taken. Tko Hon. Baronet contended that this measure was overturned. As far as the law of the case was concerned, it had been demolished in all its parts by the lion and Learned Members to whom he had allude] ; and the measure was based on calculations on which, God knew, they had little to rely. —( Hear, hear.) Little, indeed, could they rely on the cal culations of the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, who had found a mare's-nest, or rather had found the means of picking other men's pockets to pay debts which were not due from them—( Hear, hear)—he had been guilty of a sort of petty larceny —he had interfered with the rights of property, and shaker, them to their very foundation. Now, Lord Althorp might have carried this measure, and it would still have been a boon to the Dis senters, who had no right to demand that the money should be put into their pockets. Then as to the pretence of the thing. Why, men purchased property liable to Church • rates, and they had, therefore, nothing to do with them Why, the case of these persons might be like those of indi viduals who objected to fox-hunting in the country, who were so exceedingly conscientious and sensitive that they thought the sports of the field were inhuman ; but, as an ele gant poet said— " There are born in the Saurian school Men who think this pastime scarce humane; But in my mind and not ungentle eye, His mind is pure which knows no folder stain." Now, he denied the justice of the demand on the part of the Dissenters ; he denied the policy of the demand, and he thought the mode proposed was most objectionable, and for the purposes intended, it was likely to be the least effective. Then, under these circumstances, ilnd thinking that in this question the voluntary prineinle was put to the vote in mttob too contracted a view to confine themselves to the question before the House, the question was, whether they were to adopt the voluntary principle ? Would the House of Com mons be for the Established church or not? That was the way in which he pat it to the House, and be it recollected that in a former discussion a short time back the measure only received the sanction of the House (if sanetion it could be called) by a vote of twenty-three in favour of the Administra tion. But he felt the utmost confidence in the good feeling of those Hon. Gentlemen by- whom lie was surrounded—he had every confidenee in their good sense, and in the feelings of the people of England to support them from without, and he sat down in the perfect confidence that this measure never could be passed. But he would say a few words with refer ence to himself, It was with very great regret that he felt himself in a situation in which he was placed In opposition to many Hon. Gentlemen toward! whom he entertained the greatest personal esteem,e-e( Hear, hear, and oh I from the Ministerial benches.) His own life had been one of sacrifice to the good of his country ; and whatever might be the painful ness of the present sacrifice, he was content to take it " His gratiora dictu alie wit) scio, sed me very pre gratis loqui ei meum ingeelem non moverit, neceeeites cogit" him to the course which he then pursued, He therefore declared that he objected to the amendment, because it stood between the real vote to be taken, and assumed that another was likely to take place, In conclusion, he thought that the time had arrived when the people of this country were bound to declare that they would not submit to any further innovations. Mr. SHEIL rose amidst great cheering and confusion. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman was understood, alter some prefatory remarks, to say that the lion. Baronet would have done better to have maintained n judicious silence —such a silence as he had long observed.—( Hear, hear.) He would abstain from speaking on the enlightened language of the lion, Baronet, who talked of the Hen, Member for Leeds having " the whole of the Dissenters in his belly." The Hon. Baronet, too, had alluded to an6ther Anise in glowing terms—in terms which were b etter adapted perhaps that House than this House of Commons, The Hon. Member had referred to his Majesty's Ministers, of whom he had spoken in language of respect, and yet he was astonished he had not called thorn his Noble and Right Hon. Friends. But he said that the Ministry were weak. He bad given them to understand that the man who led that House wasweak—that he who carried the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts was weak—that that man was weak who introduced the Reform of Parliament Bill into the House of Commons—h e said that that man was weak who, under even the Melbourne administration, carried the English Municipal Corporation Bill—he spoke of him with compassion I He (Mr. Shoji) believed that senti ment had Its origin in sympathy, He (Mr. Sheil) looked upon the Hon. Baronet as noble relic -of a temple de dicated to freedom, though ill-omened birds built their nest s and found shelter in that once noble edifice. Al though the Hon. Baronet was now allied with the men who were the antagonists of reform in every shape—( Loud Cheers)—although he was allied with the party which was headed by the chief constable of the Tower —(Laughter and cheers)--although the Hon. Baronet Was allied with the parte. (he did not intend to speak in offensive language when he said so) which was in power when the misdeeds —for there was no use in employing a partial phrase—when the misdeeds of Manchester were rife—still it was due to the Hon. Baronet-- ( Here the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was ititetrupted by a cry of " Questio n ," l ou dl y an d i ndignantly responded to by cries of " Order.") He thought it would be felt that the speech of the Hon. Baronet was of such a miscellaneous na. tune, that it went over such a vast variety of ground, that it contained so many references to Ireland, and to a vast variety of other topics, that he (Mr. Spiel) was not deviating from time proper course of debate when he ventured to advert, in what he was sure the Hon. Baronet would feel to ho the language of Parliamentary courtesy, to certain passages in his previous political life._( Hear, beer, hear.) He was, he confessed, about to advert to Some incidents remarkabl e not only in the biography of the Hon. Baronet, but in the history of the times in which he had lived. But when he so adverted to them, it was for the purpose of giving his meed of humble praise to the previous conduct of the lion, Ba ronet.-_(A laugh, and cries of " hear, hear.") Might he suggest to the Hon. Baronet that it was now somewhat unrea sonable on his part to complainer agitators ?—( Cheers.) M. levolent peopl e m i g h t say that the Hon. Baronet felt [lie (Mre. Sheil) hoped it was not the case] like the once popular actor who no longer obtained time applause of the upper galleries.— ( Cries of " Order," and cheers.) -He owned, he thought, that the phrases employed by the Hon. Baronet towards some who sat on that (the Ministerial) side of the House might jus tify the House in bearing with hint (Mr. Sheil) if he spoke of the course which the Hun. Baronet had latterly pursued in the language of what he admitted to be severity, but which he in sisted was not in the slightest degree removed from the proper limit of discussion. But since the House had called upon him not to advert to the personal conduct of the Hon. Baronet, he would simply and shortly state that he charged the Hon. Ba ronet with being guilty, in every one of the tenets, in every one of the abstract propositions, he had that night laid down, of the most palpable,. he would not say the grossest inconsistency.—( Loud cheers.) What was the statement made by the lion. Baronet at the outset of his speech? Did he not say that the proposition of the Govern ment involved a violation of the rule by which property was secured 1—( Hear, hear.) Did he not say that the proposition, if carried, would shake the security of property to the foundation?—(Cheers.) lie took that cheer as an admission that such was the language of the lion. Baronet. Had that always been the language of time On the 6th of Hon, Ba ronet ?—( H ear.) May, 1824, the lion. Member for Middlesex brought forward a motion to inquire whether the property of the Irish Church was not more than commensurate to the ser vices which it had to perform. On that occasion the Noble Lord whom he saw opposite—the Noble Lord the Menatlbr for Lancashire (Lord Stanley)—delivered the speech, conspi cuous, no doubt, at 'the time, but rendered more remarkable afterwards, in consequence of the Noble Lord's ostensible ad herence, from that period, to the propositions he then main tained. —( Hear.) It must be felt that the motion made by the Hon. Member for Middlesex on that occasion involved, to a certain extent, the principles on which the proposition, of the Government now rested.—(" Hear," and " No.") At all events, it was contended on the other side of the House, that if Church rates were abolished, the foundation of the Church would be shaken.—( Hear.) The Hon. Baronet indeed went further, and said that the security of property would be affected,--- ( Hear, hear_) Now, wh;t was the language used by the Horrourabie Baronet on the occasion to whirls he referred, in May 1824 ? He knew that the House had a general dis taste to references made to speeches delivered in what tho Honourable Berermot called the " olden time ;" and the House perhaps was right in feeling and expressing that distaste, be cause it was not fair to refer to casual or isolated expressions in bygone speeches, in order afterwards to ground a charge upon them—(flcar)—but when a man i n the year Vel'e down certain broad abstract propositions—aeleee. he found fault not with the det a ils o f a meeserei thane forward with a dis , tinct and decisiye denunciation of its principle upon general constitutional grounds, it was fair, he thought, to go hack, not to particular phrases, but to the general tenor of is come' prehensive speech delivered in the year 'iU-1„, iq which deliberately, eleerly, and beyond equivocating, laid down doctrines Of en ebstrect nature dj ametr;olly app ,, B , d to those which he noel' c4nl9 fWvilrti to edeocate.—( Cheers.) The passage he wee about to quote did not refer to the inadvertent_ pies a inconsistencies to which he (Mr, Sheil) tocela House, with its usual good sense and tact, had not i to re ei adverting at the outset of his observation:, and wb o ic lle ' e l e ll him to dwell upon, because they were too nom . who spoke now of the necessity of upholding the 1-1 b q u l t ire this ntioa 0 repetition i a 524 o t r y a s illustration the i a ngwi (L e a grh thete r and chee rs)' going to rea d cor°: t ti t i l e it I,lourabl ascendancee B it a i ro i n re e l t an t d o what . knew it was necissary that the Honourable Baronet's la w „ .. , O J , should be refreslicd.—( Laughter.) On that cccasioa Baronet was not contented with going into the eri under which the Irish people were labouring—he did net i , oo. e h n e tr w e a a s ted the ads' floe himself to the specific facts brought forward by the " mentioned by way of introduction to what he was Member for Middlesex—he did, as he (Mr Shiel) had ith' e . !: l o read, distinctly state the broad, general, abstract grcei ‘ ne to ' ) ; ef which he int en d e d to vote f or the motion of the Hon. .51e for Middl esex . Thi s was the statement :—" With re g ar d ee Church property t o b e so m i sch i evous to a country a n o , the Church o f Ireland, I am one of th ose w h o do not ethers persons im ag i ne; b ut ne i ther, on the other hand, d o si be ier it or to so sacred, or t o stan d on t h e same footing, e, hedged roun d b y t h e same protections, as private proptvrcle, The property o f t h e Ch urch is, pay given for a public so:L and it req u i res t h at t h e serv i ce should be performed. il ee clan of it w a s g i ven f or p i ous uses ; and as to the d o n e who were, according to some Gentlemen, to have reel gifts set aside by any alterae:on of Church property, iplt ask, to what Church did they give this property ? Ce ll tb e, not to the Ch urc h w hi c h now holds it, but to tun, ) „„4 from whi c h i t was taken by the State and tranote,o to this. As, t o th e arguments, therefore, which _To o r, been addressed t o th e i nterests of the landed gentiew telling them to beware of shaking their own property 1 '740 fering that o f th e Ch urc h to be touched, I trust, Sie that landed ge n tl emen o f t hi s House have too much g e ood ge n o adopt any f ear o f t h e ki n d , and too much manliness t t o t ; treat such opinions with contempt. If it can be shen tst e, the property of th e E sta bli s h ed Church in Ireland is SC I le e buted as to b e a great evil—if it ca n b e s h own t h a t by 2,0 d ing th e di str ib ut i on we shall largely promote the interest:te floppin ess o f a ll t h e people, that we shall benefit the ean'isce, if it can b e s h own t h at th i s property is an enormous griees,l3l4, will it not b e a b sur d to say [Here Sir Francis e e dett interpos e d an o b servat i on the purport of which did el . reach the gallery.] The Hon. and Learned Menshe r ne e claimed, " Does the lion. Baronet say no ?"—( Hear') m o? he say that these are not the sentiments he then eteresse Why, he was a Teller on the division which toet, placel ° o the occasion. —(Great laughter and cheers.) Th e To w e rt i were Joseph Hume and Sir Francis Burdett.—(ge'Aettbo laughter and cheering.) Ay, and since lam pointing e e n s t inconsistencies of public men, I may state that I find ! LI !, f i st of those who voted for the proposition of the Hon. Membe r Middlesex the name of Maurice Fitzgerald, who has s h i er contested the r e p resentat i on of Lambeth.—(Loud langalo In n d emb cheering, in the m id st of which a n Honours o 0 er excleimed, " And L or d P almerston. " ) Do list is wont more names? Then I will tell y ou t h at i n the satnebtlet te be found t h e name of Sir James S car l e tt.—(Lau,gto and cheers.) If you did eget think me capable of reeler:re the Hon. B aronet , I appeal to a higher authority, and ibs you to his own distinct, explicit, solemn denunciation 0 bs t Irish chu rc h, f oun d e d upon the abstract doctrine that e, property of the Church is the property of the State's' (Cheers.) I proceed with the passage from which I , e , quoting at the point from which I was broken off by the i n ' t w e ruptiosn of the House Will it not be absurd to say ti l a p ,ti , is net to be touched—that Parliament cannot alter the — OOl nation of the property of the Church —when it is shoal' t o this destinati on i s an a l arming evil, and that the' alteerabsili would be produ c ti ve o f great public good?' " He (Mr. n - 00 1 should not h ave sa id one word about the Irish Ch urc h Iw o . the Hon. Baronet gratuitously availed himself of the °pr e nity of anim a d vert i ng upon the conduct of Irish agita te d se upon the con d uct o f t h ose, and the House well undergo° up . meaning, wh om h e d escr ib ed in sarcastic tones as the° el porters of the Government. He (Mr. Sheil) was not asble to say that he and those who thought with him were thes e supporters o f th e G overnment which carried the Engibbeet) nicipal Corp orat i on R eform Bill—( Hear, hear, and laugh —that they were th e supporters of the Government which ,;el vied the Births and Deaths Registration Bill—(reti e t bo laughter and cheering )—that they were the supp or ters d ik e Government which carried the Poor-law Amendment D i ' ets Bill which th e Ri g h t H on. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) OPPed declared h e wou ld not consent to rescind_which the De' l , - , Wellingt on , to hi s h onour, declared he would never repel is (Hear, and l aug h ter. ) Let him do the Right Hon. Bare (Sir R. Peel) j ust i ce. T h i s new alliance was no alliaece° b e. , Ir r . It was not " P ee l an d B urdett, " but " Burdett end Oast'e . ei But to return f or a moment to the subject of the i ' , Church., The Hon. Baronet (Sir F. Burdett), who clsc: y . that he had never undergone any political metaleterPh ° tert who maintain e d t h at hi s political creed, political charger and politi ca l v i ews remained unspotted and unchanged eisli the House h ear w h at h e said of the Irish Church, ef eee n 't, he was now suc h a d evoted and enthusiastic adwefte, in the year 1824. In the same speech from which he ( •d/ Shed) had already been quoting the Hon. Baronet Os " With regard t o th e Ch urch of Ireland the single ellee is, does th a t Ch urc h d o good or evil ? Is Protestant as:al:sf dancy—for that is what is meant by preserving the Church so much benefit that it must at all hazards be preserved , °t o it not a curse to the people of Irelrnd ? Even if it 050 proved that the Protestant ascend ancy i s not an evil, it - it e noefellow that the Ch urc h s h ould be protected in all itsWeileol But if that ascendancy is the cause why all classes hav e te e equal ri g ht s —if i t prevents the Government from doingjof to all its subjects —if it exposes the majority to the tyran' s l a small nu m b er , an d w i ll not allow the nation 's o b e eoee r- ie by any other principle than terror, then, Sir, I cannot con s the Protestant ascendancy as so necessary to be preservectifse that it is no t o f more harm than good."—( Ch eers .) nc( Shell) would really appeal to the Hon. Baronet whetherets language he had held that night was not at utter variance l the sentiments he expressed in 1824 ?—(Ch eers .) Sir F. BURDETT — N o. Mr. SHEIL—Th e H on. Baronet said " No." ,r (1 1 el " no" the re was no reply—(Laughter and cheers) --0r iS (Mr. Shell) ventured to give an answer, it could only be ' e s, --that the I r i s h R oman Catholics had disappointed thee It Baronet's expectations—( Hear, hear)—and althoeigh the Established Church to be a grievance__ Sir F. BURDETT—No. Mr. SHEIL—Then the Hon. Baronet sekeg in a manne r at var i ance with his feelings, must have Sir F. BURDETT—No, no. Mr, SHELL—I speak of what 'happened not ten o r tiv e ies o years ago, but in 1834. In That year, feeling the ahtel necessity of h av i ng t h e Church question settled with a, "0 • to the peace of Ireland, I took the liberty —I believe it tits in replying, or rat h er attempting to reply, to a speech cLeli" Noble L or d (L or d Stanley) the Member for Lancashire, was then a mem b er of the same Government with his 41,06 and Right Hon. Friends—.l took th e lib erty at t he t ?i fe of suggesting that it was incumbent on his Majesty'"„e I nisters to make an explicit declaration on the subject, 1 0 01 called upon every one of them in the House of Comm e n to declare th e i r op i n i ons upon it.—(Hear, hear.) l id to thathe t on that occasion ussel addressed my se lf more particupe N Lord (Rll) the Secretary for the He rne fter pertinent, who, it was sa i d, upset the Cabinet a few daYss for wards. A n d I cannot help claiming to myself some creditroe sowing th e see d s of salutary discord which grew al' ie e l eer, cious f ru i t to my country--( Hear, h ear ) — f or, from the A- s e o sion whi c h t h en took elace the s pli t i n t h e Cabinet arose, seti not long afterwards the Noble Lord (Stanley) opp?s i ° t ie. his companio n ( Si r J . Graham) abandoned the Adininistra On the 6th of May, 1834, the Noble Lord (Russell) the ors cretary for the Home Department stated, in consequence test question put to him by the Hon. Member for Ti ppe rary, toe t he felt it hi s d uty to state, that his opinions upon the ti'hst of the Iri s h Ch urc h red rained un c h ange d : and w h o se" I re it rose immedi ate l y a f terwards, and expressed his pleas° the hearing th e d ec l arat i on ? Why, it was no other than Hon. B aronet the Member for Westminster.—(Chard Fran c i s B ur d ett got up as soon as the Noble Lend tho Secretary for the Homo Department sat down' i . declared th at hi s opinions also upon the subject ° IA it Irish Ch urc h rema i ned unchanged, and that lie 6 10 4; absolut e ly necessary that that Church should be re the and he distinctly and warmly expressed his gratitude T oe d Noble Lo r d f or t h e sentiments he had uttered.—( Hear' first These were his words : " He thought he saw for 01e 4. time a glimpse of hope of removing what had been so skip rankling in the minds of the Irish people, and of ni r that Union, so important in other respects, a sclu " ° eP; strength and happiness to both countries. This obje ct sats, reared to be of such magnitude that all other subjects area details shrunk into utter insignificance. He was P P eet' to make as great sacrifice in a sp i r i t o f justice or of g l ees rosity as any Irish Member, f or lie felt it wa s both or r o v i e te and wise i n thi s country to carry this object into c an ; s rlf effect. H e f e l t strongly upon this subject, for from not period of life he had been deeply, though perhair t w as prudently, i mp li cated in it ; but it was subject we as be calculated t o d r i ve a w i se man mad. But lie admitted t at 50 oe a felt then not as an Englishman, except as desiring promote th e goo d of his fellow-s u bj ects . He t e e ' s eas $ the feelin g t one w hi ch had been employed, as this tinei' subject whi c h h a d k ept Ireland in a ferment at s he re po l i as the gre a t gr i evance of a large proportion of t lation of Ireland, and if arranged at an early l A vee ted: re beartbernings and discontent would have been Pr o e ver ity I abandon at once --I deprecate any language of 0011 speaking to the Hoe. Baronet. I would address 'lim b , par t ea 4 the language of respectful remonstrance; and aft er e , a , I f sages I have read from speeches made by him in 'LI i;rong e r, and May, 1834, I mould ask him—l will use a n e __sfic'„ terms —was there not an anomaly in his conductr ioo lhe s e v i o hear.) What has happened since 1834?...—(0erelte 11 0 ,e , ing.) Will any one tell me what has happened since? we changed our language ? Is not our tone the same?here h i s . arc we changed ?._.( Hear, hear.) I a d m i t that e t h e rog ea, i , been great changes, I admit that public mensite e ecret ialli be admit that there have been some extraordinary ail Roo the the minds and opinions of some ; but as far as I canoes 1 1 ' 131 0 slightest judgment of myself, or of those with who m ha the habit of acting, I do not know in what particula r rhett o tio deviated from our former conduct.--(Hear, ile e a e'elica s t e dO entreat of those who lists to answer me to bar. I co o. 4)en 2 isteneY of . the Heeesweable Baronet.—(Hear' -at hi isee entreat them to tell us upon what ground it ig s " ayg h ij duct hue peen changed, or what cireumstance" tion c e elie that its his or their estimation justify the a lter. ....nrtant,erto 4lesmer sentiments and opinions upon so many im, hithe r tical topics.--( Hoar, hear.) I confess that _sn ot tbi's .1 spoken rather more in reference to the Hon. Dui' sa the subject -matter before us—(Opposition chetteersofee eetPee think myself justified in le:view dune so, in ccue e(l , 4 rna o u y eta more than indirect taesien which the fiGd. 8 14,e s e nd er the party to es'a . sch nun attached.—(lieer.), a A thy fi.1314:‘ that we should stand lee and listen wit! , h P r a e rew difference to the suksercilioee eseete with which THE SUN,. LONDON, TUESDAV. MAY 23, 1837.