The Sun. — London, England, 1812-01-18 00:00:00

him, he would have no objeetion if the Hon. Gen►le man would set about proving that any relation of the Minister had grants from any one of these funds. • Mr. CREEVEY, in explanation, stated, that he bad confi - ped his. observations to the 4i per cent. fund. He would pledge himself to prove that grants bad been made. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER conceiv edthat tie Hon. Gentleman meant the observation to be generally-applied, for so he . understood him in terms. - BRAND re-stated his, tleelions (notwifh,- stan3ingthe explamilion of thellight Hon. Gentle man, Mr. Perceval) to the additional grant of 70,0061. 4o the Prince R , gent. Mr. YORKE f,bserved, that of the 70,0001. which his Royal Highness received from the EKchequef, a sum of 17,0001. was paid to-her Royal High ness the Princess of Wales, and the difference be,. tween these two sums remained at the disposal of • the Prince. Mr. FREEMANTLE WtiS disposed to vote any sum whieh could contribute to the comfort of his Ma jesty ; but he muse object to the manner in which that splendour and comfort was proposed to ,be forded, and to creating a new Civil List Revenue. He wished to know why the whole of the Civil List Establishment was not transferred to his Roy al High-- 'nes , %Le Prince Regent. Was it from any distrust of the Prince that it was not to be so transferred ? Did the Right Hon. Gentleman suppose that his Royal Highness would nOt render all the comforts to his Royal Father and Sovereign of which be sto-d in need ? If it was necessary, heiwould give his Royal Highness 3 or 400,0001. in addition to the Civil Lk', if that could contribute to the hap piness of his Majesty. Such a regulation as the one he now proposed would be infinitely more ad vantageous to the country. The Report was then brought up, and the Re 'solutions read. O 6 the second Resolution being read, Mr. SitnatniAs roS . e for the putpose of making an observation or two respeaing a misrepresenta•- • lion• of his -peeeli, which had ippeared in a Morn ing Paper. The Editor of that Paper, after giving a report of his speech, refers_ his readers for the correa opinion which he (Mr. S.) entersained With reSpeCt to the Prince not having given up his Claims for the arreark of the Duchy of Cornwall, to the copy of the :Message of his Royal HighneSs, in an other pat tof the Paper. The Right Hon. Gentle- . trian would see, that in so doing, the Editor had committed as error, and, therefore, when the 4 lit Hon. Gentleman charged him (Mr. 5 . .) with not under -landing the imp - orr of the Message, he w:itild find that the charge was correa. would "read the passage alluded to, Mr. Sheridan here about to read from the Paper in question; whem _ _ The SPEAKER wished to know whether the Right Hon. G.NitieMan meant .to make a complaint against the person allUded t(;;Oecause it was rot her a novel ihing to introduce N'-twspal•ers, and make refer, ences.to theril in - the manner s.vhi;;lt the Right Hon. Gentle Man h,-id done. rile Speaker bad done his dtyy in reminding the House of the novelty in the Right'Hon. Gentleman's proceeding, and it was for them to decide k,,,hether he should go on or desist. chair! - was echjed from .all parts of he House ) Jr.A SHERIDAN trusted,- that he should always bow, as he hal done before, with deference, to the opinion of the Chair. But at the same time,_ ill acquaintediai i , 11,,, was with the praaice of _Par. liament, he begged to say. : that he could quote Many instances in which Members had been al lOwt.d to set themselves right, when misquoted in Newspapers, and he now— The SPEAKER:—" 11 it be the pleasure of the House that the Right Honourable Member shall, he will proceed(Chair, Cliair! Question, ques tion!) Tie questions on the Resolutions were then put and agreed to, and a Bill ordered on the third Re solution. The second Resolution was referred back to the Committee of Supply. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The House having resolved itself into a Commit tee of Supply, Mr. Yorrxis moved for - the usual Votes for the Naval Service. He stated that no redu6lion had been made in the number of seamen since the last year, and therefore he should apply for the same Vote exaEtly. Helhen proposed the following lie:: Solutions, which were agreed to : That r 45,000 men should be,employed in the Sea SetTice, together with 31,419 Marines. That there be granted for the . payment of the saute • or vie.tualling For the wear and tear of ships tor orcinance ,C3 , 345,0c0 4.000,0'xi 3,675,000 649'750, Mr. WHARTON then moved for the following sums, among the miscellaneous estimates for the year : tor the relief of tho American Loyalists £20,000 0 0 For the relief of the Cor4iean Emigrants 12,000 0 o For the St. Domingo Sufferers - ,8,000 0 0 For the Dutch Emigrants " - 3,390 o o For the suffering Clergy and LAiry of France For the Protestant Dissenting Ministers in 123,0a0 0 0 Ireland . ' For the Protestant Dissenting Minister.; in Soo 0 0 , England Tu cletr3) . the expence of the Public Office 1,700 0 0 _ . in I3ow-street - Ta defray the expcnce of Convias afloat To defray the charge of Printing for the 12,e06 q o 70,500 0 Eicase"ot Lords For Printing the Votes of the House of 21 b OOO 0 0 Commons FOC Printing Bills and other Papers 2,nco o 0 4,4 6. 7 5 6 Mr. TIERNEY begged leave to take this oppor tunity of calling the attention orthe House to what appeared to him to he a most shameful waste of the public money. He alluded to the extravagant twit-_ tier in which plans and Owes were printed, and par ticohirly to those of the bogs of Ireland, which were executed in a manner rather calculated to adorn a library than to tnstrua Members in the subjea they were ictendl•d to illustrate. The expence was become so heavy, that he was sure he would be pardoned for troubling the Committee on the sub jeo.. The SPEAKER said, that the Committee .had every reason to be obliged to the Right Hon. Gent• for calling their attention to the subjeCt. The laa vas, that great extlav`ag-ince pr'evaiied in that depart ment at different times. He supposed the Chairman Must have been generally imposed on. The House had already taken notice of these expensive plans ) , and determined as a check in .future that nothing . : should be publisheft upon paper larger than a journal sheet, without application to him (tpc Speaker.) lii furtherance of this ReNlution, Ite . h:id taken care not to give his sanction to any more expen,ive-undertak ings, unless when told by the Chairman that it WAs indispensatE necessary._ As to the case to which the Rijht non. Gentleman pat ticularly alluded respett • ing the scale of the hogs in Ireland; it was di - A.4n in that country, and originally upon a nitwit largt-y plan; on his objeCting to it a smallei one was adoptect,uac companied at the same time by a statement that a smaller one would not be sufficient to explain the subject to ti,lg - l-louse. ,litidoubtedly, if_ it was ne cessary to mark alLtfre sub-divisions, a smaller could not well be adapted, and the Corn - mittee might re collea that they were executed underthe-Pathamen ta.ry Commissioners appoiote4 by . the Act „for ,the Drainage of 13ogs in Ireland. Mr. TIER NEY said, he did not intrite any thing to the Right 11onourable . entletuan, whose con duct he was certain was perfeCtly, proper on the occasion ; but he thought it his duty to call their attention to the *fact itself. Some means ou,ht to be devised'by Parliament to preVent tlieT.rveurrence of such practices. • • Mr. Frrzomeitto said that he had heard the sub _ ject a good deal di-cussed by the ComMissioncrs; whose opinions seemed to be, that smaller would not answer. the purpose. The SPUAKbIt expressed a hope, that what* had passed that night would make such' an impression on the minds of Gentlemen 'who were appointed Chairmen of Coniniittees,:as would call their atten tion particularly to that subject: FO.l Printing the Bills of the &ssion . £'6,000 o o For Stationery - • - - . 3-,coo • 6._ o And several smaller sums to the different ~ Police Offices, and .to the Servants of . both liduses of rarharnei.t. To the African Societies: . - - . 10,000 o o LOSS 0 - F THE SHIPS OF WAR. Mr.NEIITBREAD begged leave, hefoie the Chair., man left the , Chair, to put a qoestion which he fear ed-should rather have been proposed , X hen the vote to the Seamen was propoSed. The subjyct, how ever, bad excited so much.agilation in the public. mind, that he trusted he would he permitted to putt it in the present instance. He, did not. mean to throw any blame upon any individual whatever, - but he, vv ished the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Yorke) would state to the,Eleusewhy those two gr eat „ships, the Si. George and Defence, had been left in such a situation as had caused their - less, and by v.v:tat means that loss was occasioned. Mr. Y:ott.KE,.evidently much,afr_clq, ,r plied, that Keith regnd to the Ipss•incurred it was .certainly. but too true. The ships and Ike stores were of little importance, but the number of gallant lives destroy ed by that.. unfortunate accident was ituptnumt in deed. With regard,to the circtunstances by which we had sustained so great a loss, they were-entirely owing to those acciddms of wind and .weather, hich it was impossible to foresee and to. piovide. against. The ship Hero, the loss of which) we bad also to lament, was cast away, owing, he believed among other causes, to a (atilt in the navio-dipn,and riot malting allowance for the current aid) pre vailed in those seas. It wAs a matter that.deserved consideration, in l i rder to ensreu tUmir4ror ive 4h i;avigacion in the North Roads, and by that means to provide agan st such occurrences hereafter., With regard to the :hi t )s alluded to in the Hon. Gentle in:as question, he could state that orders were is sued from the Admiralty, direaing that no ships should remain in the North Seas after the t st ot No vember. The weather, however, prevented the convoy from arriving until - the 17th of that month. In the storm one of the vessels fed foul of the other, which by the shock lost its rudder: Atter the D-- fence was sunk, the St. George was driven ashore, but expectations were entertained of her weatherhz out the storm, insomuch sp that the Admiral did not shift' his flag, as he might have done. Unfor tunately, however, those expectations were not rea lized. As to the detention of the convoy, it was. owing entirely to the state of the weather;, and so far was . the Admiralty from being to blame, that many applications were made • for cOn“))s to the Baltic, at a later period, and were refused. . Mr. WHITBREAD repeated, that he did not mean to impute the slightest blame to any individual. He was perfectly satisfied with the Riy,lit Hon. Gentle man's statement,„ and with the feeling which be tnanifested on the occas i on. Mr. HUTCHINSON WiSll54 to know if any thing was. done to improve the situstio❑ ,of ti MaJine Corps ? Mr.YonKE said, he could not state at present that any alteration was made: The Report was agreed to, and ordered to be: re- . - ceived to-morrow. STATE OF,,THE METROPOLIS. Alr. RYDER said, that in rising to move for an inquiry into the state of the ,nightly .watch, he did nut feel it necessary to enter at any great length into the reasons by. Which he was induced to bring- for tynrcisuch a !notion. At the. same time, , he• felt himself justified in stating, that if the expediency of the measure rested upon the late - :horrible mur ders alone, by which two whole families were corn pictely exterminated, the atrocity of thoSe crimes would in thenisrlyes offord a sufficient ground. It was true that no system of police could prevent the commiSsion.of such murders, while there were per sons vile and abandoned enough,to commit them, under such circumstances - of - dexterous depravity ; but as a better regulation of the nightly watch must hate a tendency. to. diminish the chances, it was right that it should be resorted Jo, Those Gentle men who had seen other countries, and attended to their internal situation and gmeilllnent, must know, .that even in:places where the peace- was committed to the care of an armed police, a police furnished...with all those powers, with which under 'a despotism it was possible ,to furnish it, with out any regard, to the prejudices of the .people ; they must know that even in such places and under such regulations, atrocities such as those were com mitted almost nightly, without exciting any of those deep impressons under which mind of this coun try at present suffered; and it might be regarded as A Irma, that few ads' of the kind were committed here, when they looked to the consternation excited :in the present instance. U ,certainly was.true that for the last three or lour mouths, offences, though not altogether of so horrid a description, were mul- Alplied beyond the experience of former year; ; and ,Itnatigh many accounts had got into the public ,P. , Kitkasw hich µ ere true, many also were exeggerated and may false. He e knew nut whether the - Gentle- - men around him:were acquainted 'with the law by which the nightly watch witmegulated. In ,tormerr times each parish. provided for itself, and it was oot" ; until 1774, that Parliament interfered, and passed an aCI which ntP1igd.9.111,YA0..1.5 parishes. By that Act, Directors and Trustees were appointed, under whose controul, the watch, the patrole,antf.the beadles, were all placed, and who - were entrusted ,also with the power of assessing the rates - upon each parish. It was no wonder that this Act should ,be' ,found insuf*iept at the present day, whet) they . cobsidtmed the enormous increase of the Metropolis. He should' not trouble the House by attempting to enomeratx the various instances in which the pro Visions of this Act were evaded and . negle6led : it wodld be Sof 7 fieient-to mention one. The Aa reqoired that the trusteewsbould-a4bint ne.ne but able-bodied_ men, and he would leave to their own obServation to•de-' cide.boW far this -was - complied with. He knew that there were many instances in which those who were.too old to earn their bread; were appointed to . the situations of watchmen, in order to prevent, :heir be.cotnieg a burden-to the- parish. Thee were . trotJiremen to secure_ the lives and properties of the inhabitants. If, the ,House agreed with him in the appointment of the ,C.ormaittee. for which he should move, it would be for that Committee not ooli to consider the 461.0 t _Pdrliament, but also the I; , ariety' of local Acts upon _the same suhje6t, It would be for.ihem.lo decide whether it was advis able to alter the . system entirely, or whether' W.oadebee_sutEcient to eufareetle .presyat Act _with out any ianov,ation. It would be for them to cortsi der what,course they would recommend, and there fore it was quite unnecessary, indeed • it would. be onoecoming, in him to, anticipate that by propteoing any arrangement 'of his own. As far,-however, as he had thoUght upon the subjea, he had no objec tion to state generally, that he rather inclined to the notion of enforcing the present system by -ade quate- provisions, than of having recourse to any new Att. It was .material i , he thought, for him to State, that when the Legislature .foni,l it neces sary to turn their attention to this subjeCt, they. did so in consequence .of the variety of local Acts ap plicable t o,each parish, and .producing a confusion which it was of the utinost consequence to reme dY : for instance, the parish of Pancras _was di vided into seven distriats, each, of which had its own loyal Acts. / The interests of the parties thus Created, should be diScussed and reconciled as well as possible with the new arrangeMent ; -and this was one of the prinCipal reasons "which induced him to - prefer the aripoiniment of a Corn. iniftt e, to any other made of proceeding. The House had adOpted the same course in the year 1774, and it was his inientidn, in the present . case to propose tlie — COminittee, Who were most intrusted, as well as mot likely to be ace qtr.:tinted with the nature of the different intereqs that would be affected by the change. He should therefore Move, if the House agreed to the appoint= ment of the Committee, that the Members for Lon don, Westminster, Middlesex and Surrey, shoal' be members of the same. He concluded with moving that 4§..lcet Culavni! tee sluarld lie app,oiated GatAlar -. lltlrpose of considering the state of the nightly watch, in the nrekroeolis. Sir S. ROMILLY said he was surprised at the mo tion of his Right Hon. Friend. No one, he was persuaded, who was acquainted with what had passed, and with the alarm and terror which had spread through the metropolis, but must have ex pected that some more extensive measure would have been resorted to than that now under consi deration. He should think, that a Committee ap-; pointed upon such art occasion, would find it ne cessary to inquire not only into„ the state of the nightly watch, but into the causes of the increase. of felories and crimes ; and . he was sure, that a comprehensive view of this kind would be more calculated to produce the desired effect Allan- the contracted course recommended. He had no other means than were common to every body of informing himself upon the d-fferent facts con neCted with this question ; bUt it was evident, that crimes had greatly increased in number and atro city. It appealed from the yearly returns, that there was a gradual increase in this respea, for the last five or six years. He did/ not advert to the ccenmittals ate Quarter St..ssiOns, 'but to the whole number of those at the Old Bailey, 'and he was sure the House. would be surprised at their extent. In t 806, tiee persons were convitted at the Old Bailey. In 1807,.1017 In .1808, 1110. In 1808, 1314. In 1810, 1424 ; so that in rite last five years, lite number of committals had increased from 89 'to 1424_; and this in a state.of war. It was certain that fewer otTeuces were committed in time of war than in lime of l eace ; for many of . tho z se bold and daring icharaCters Were embarked in the service of their country, and retetered . esefelegainst her ene toles, instead of 'becoming dangerous at home.— Among all the calamities" that attended a . state of war, there was , still one advantage to be derived from it, that it afforded greater dotnestic/security in the way he had already described. But in the case of this country of late, so• far from being able to calcelate on this solitary advantage, we beheld crones increasing, and domestic security becoming mote precarious. The country - should know what was ttre - cause — of thiJ; He would state to the . House Some of the causes which appeared na tural to him, for the purpose of shewieg the ne cessity of a. more extensive measure. He thought it must appear that the system of punishment, so long, and (without offence to arty individual (he would say, so obstinately persevered in', had in them selves t he effeet ofencoura,,ing the number of crimes. He did not allude here to the frequency of capital pu nishrnents,but to the pnnishments less than death,and above all,' to proanscuous imprisonments. Iw con sequence of that practice, it was known, that boys, convicted of offences, were put into the same prisons with hardened wretches; from thence they could derive nothing but the basest examples. Many, too, were condemned to the hulks, where there were instances of the most atrocious crimes, where they mingled with the worst of criminals, and from thence, .af'er a certain period, they were chsunissed, without any'sort of provision, leaving these colleges . of infamy, to exercise upon society those arts and praciices in which they were insttucted. He be- lieved, taking his eti!hority Undoubtedly from the . ;1, common sources of information, that many person! were lately lately discharged from the hulks, and bethought that the great atrocities lately committed, might in Et",. • pare be ascribed to that cause; someof them, it,was - generally understood, were released in c-msequence it of the expiration of the term of their , imerrsone , r Meat ;.others had obtained their release by improper 'e,, means, and :others- shed . -escaped.. - When -those setetdhes were discharged withoet any provision, being made for them, without any means of improve- ment being affoeded, without even the adVaniage of religious instru&ion, without trades, :and without charader, they must proceed to the Verdetration of crimes. One would think that what had- passed fur a considerable time in this country . ought to have , strewn the necessity of a change of system. It W a.: unnecessary now to enl.4ge upon risubj e d of which notice had been .already Oven, but he believed it would he found, that the system of Pollee esta- 'Wished, tended materi Illy to inciease the cemlnis sion of crimes. If the House had an objeasion . ro go into the more large inquiry, qt certainly would be necessary to consider the state of the Police. He objeded to the principle of giving reward: to the Police for the detedion of offenders of a certain de-- Seription ; for, - tx heti lie COnsider - Jdthat the prevention. of crimes . depended on the Police alone, that they : alone knew whatesereene were liable to suspicion, he e . must infer, that the offering of rewards motet pro- i duce the greatest evil, by making it their interest to Permit crimes Of than atrocious description, for . -; - the detection of which 'rewards were given. By _ the 4th and sth of William and Mary, and Coe 7 1 4 - : . Queen Anne, 401. was offered for 'the detection of highway robbery. He did not wish to speak clis- . respectfully of a useful body of men, but unless they acted upon refined. moral principles, - their inclination . , must be to permit the act to-take place, that they might be entitled to the recompence. He was in- . . ~formed that no man had any chance of obtaining the ~:., property he had lost, until he offered a ree , ard for ',.. its recovery: It resembled a practice-adopted in . some offices of giVing expedition money, which was: ', always productive of delay, for del .y must have been _-- • the practice 'of the office., to make it worth while to pay the Police officers for dispatch. The mis.. chief of this was, that' when a man lost property, he must be satisfied to lose more, in order. to quicken ' the ministers of justice. A Bill had been intro duced into that House 11 , 1 the year 1785;c ontainin4 some good provisions, and some objectionable.-- Among others, it propOsed the abolishing of rewards altogether ; hut whether rewards ought to be abo- ', lished altogether or nee, Police 01 - ficers ought not. to get them s r The utility of e.v rcls consisted in their - tendency to obtain information Irene ecce,sar ies after! ! the=: fea t but the Police Officers were not in this ‘, situation when they discharged their duty. I-le un derstood that when persons went to - ,'the PnliceOfficei • and - described an individual by , whom they were robbed, it was no uncommon thing to find that the l‘ Otttrers knew - him immediately; that they knew his name, and the houses he frequented. He sees not cer tain whether those circumstances were fe o e, bet they were generally believed, and he rather thought were well 'founded. It was right -to institute inquiry, e when they efonsidered the state of the metropokr; . . when they considered the great expenee of. the Pee lice, and the vote of that clay, and when, in addition -4..-44.4.,-4..."---re-fiknet.±-4 0 .4,--itrrevjniti rs,a, uTirul mei!, that ads were committed, which shook the public security; and the tranquility of private families; when they reflected that it was due from every GO vernment to its subjects to guard their property and', theii persons ; they must see the necessity of taking an enlarged and comprehensive view. Bui his Right Hon. Friend had said, that such_ climes as we had . lately heard of, were frequently committed in otker - countries. He would ask .where s those countries 'were ? He had never heard or read of such. As 10 Paris, while he resided there, he had never heard of • such atrocities ; nor did he know to what climate ' hist Right Hon. Friend could refer him for a solitary comparison in this respe&. He knew 01 none where 'Crimes were committed with such insolence and presumption as here. His Right Right Hon. Friend : had spoken of the nightly watch, but where was 01 0 ' dailywatch ? Did they not hear contiruillv of rob" bevies constantly committed in the day-time, and where was the remedy for this ? Was it in regn' lating the nightly watch ? If the - country was left in this situation, the worst consetenences were to bill apprehended. They should inquire not only into the .. state of the watch, but into the state of the police, : and the state of crimes. A number of causes would be found - to concur in multiplying the number of the last. The tolerating of improper houses, suffering the streets to be infested, as they sometimes were, and among Others, he could not help lenunierating the continuance of Lotteries. 14w-the supply of ' 500,0.001. which he believed was the only produce - of this pernicious measure, could be supposed to jus tify its continuance, he was unable to conjecture; but without wishing to introduce politics into sucit a subje& as this, he must observe, that in his opinion it was not what , it produced, sbi,t the number of Commissiooerships - w bids it suppotresi, that scatted to prof rad its existence. . Mr. W. Ssirru said, that he could not refrain from making a few observations on the present im portant subjed, although he coula not hope to add i any weight to the ar-euments so ably urged by his Hon. and Learned Friend. He could not help re gretting, however, that his Hon. and Learned Friend :. had sat down, without proposing an amendment, fur tiro purpose of extending Are objects to which the Committee were' to dire& their a;tention, 'and he •• trusted that such an amendment would yet be pro- - posed. There were one or two circumstances which ' proved the absolute necessity of such an extension Ofobject. In:the first place, if the House attended to the . nature of those most horrible and barbarous outrages Which for two months had kept the metro- - , polls in a perpetual akin), and more particularly the atrocious murder of Mr. Mares famile (the authors `,. . of which had never yet 'been discovered); it wool( be evident, that had the nightly watch of the me tropolis been Melte best possible state, those out rages and that mutd r could not have been prevent dcr. They originated in a set of villains about town whine existence was not imputable to any deficiency in the nightly watch. In the second place, if the nightly watch could operate upon them, of what trae tute•would be titan operation ? Unless spine change doidd be produced in the disposition of those villains, . the only effect that could try po . sibihry be occasion-, ed would be to drive them out. of the metropolis- into the environs. The surrouodios villages wou:d.. -+,