The Sun. — London, England, 1846-04-18 00:00:00

....,,~ • STEAM COMMUNICATION WITH AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND. A meeting was held ye s t er d ay a t th e L on d o n Tavern, at 12 o'clock, to hear the statement of Lieutenant Waghorn re- Ptieeting the a d vantages of the overland commun i cat i on w i t h di a , and. thence by th a t route to Australia and New Zea land. Snort's- after the hour specified Mr. Waghorn began 13. Y observing that twenty five years of his life had been c di gAently employed in eff ec ti ng s t eam communication with India. -"t Present a great part of the object was effected. He had, ltherefore confined himself to the remainder of the route, and I 'c'Posed to go by Si nga p or e to Australia. The distance tween these two points was 4,450 miles, and the way which be advocated was from Singapore to a port in Java, i th ,enee to Port Essenden, in Batavia, thence to Wednesday . f r - t a ildep in Australia, and thence to Port Jackson ; ~.'"us dividing these 4,450 miles into four stages, 'Government, yesterday had an interview with a member of the who had stated that this route, and this alone, -wo uld be ap proved of b y them. B y t hi s route t h ey believed '''h • that the communication would be effected, and the further jest would be served of establfshing a steam navy in Australia. . Le tters were the n rea d f rom th e Li ver p oo l an d M anc h es t er Chambers of Com merce , an d f rom an em i nen t h ouse i n L ee d s , l th _ aPsiroving of the design, and giving answers within " i n etY-sier hours of the dispatch of the inquiries. On the motion e 1 Mr. WAGuon.N, Sir GEORGE LARPENT was called to Ow:, chair who, after thanking the meeting tor the honour done him, stated that the object of this !!ieeting was to - establish a branch on the great trunk steam line to Chine. and the remote east. With the benefits of st earn & n a'Agation all were acquainted, and it was needless, ere ; ,_ re, to attempt to enter upon them, but this much he - raTut observe, that in a gre a t com me rc ial empire like this, steaen c ommunication was the great bond by which it was to be tied together i firm unity and that, in fact, it might be said t o be essential to its security. His ow n correspond "lee with Australia quite justified the belief that the scheme But „Ivould be eminently beneficial to both portions of the emp to -nut the question was how were the expenses ment he met ? It appeared, then, that the ' Were ready to approve of the plan which M G r. o Wa horn had devised, and it might, therefore, be a nt t icip r a e t u e s cl u g u t , h h a e t Some assistance from that quarter might,wl h energetic expected; but yet it must be met by the co operation of those around him and of the other merchants lef . Great Britain. With this remark, he would call_ upon Mr. Sc ott, the agent of Austra l ia , t o move th e first re solution.—(Cheers.) Alt. Scorr, in moving the first resolution, which was approving of Mr. Waghorn's plan, alluded to the anxiety universally felt on the arrival of the ne ;vs from India; and After referring to the superior benefits of peace over the glorious triumphs of war, he would not hesitate to assert, _that the boundless plains of Australia would be productive of far greater wealth than the mines of i Mexico and Peru. lie believed that the difference between the value of the trade with foreign countries and that with the colonies was but little known, and he would, therefore, taks the opportunity of contrasting the value of these several trades now carried on with countries coin- Prising one-fo - urth of the population of the glebe, a popula tion indeed not less than 160,000,000. He found then Iteussia took 6d. a head of our goods and manufactures, the countless millions of Russia took Bd. a head, France Is. Bd. a - head, the united States of Germy 3. 10d., ndhe ishilted States of America now took ban Bd. s a head, a but t he should observe that before the United States ceased to be a co lo " ny of thi s country i t took 1!. a head. But what was the ea - with the colo n i es ? Wh y C ana d a t a k es 1!. 1.55. head, the West Indies takes 2!. 17s. 6d. 11' 'head, and at one time New South Wales took I . ol '. it head, though now it had declined to 71. 10s. ; and the *bole' average of the consumption of the colonies wa s 14a. 6d. a head, and he found that this country abso _,lately furnished, on an average, as much as Is. a head to er Yinhabitatit of the globe. rn 1840, the Australian Co unties took a 5 much as 2,630,0001. worth of the produce and ©iantefietures- of this country, while from all the world beside hey t ook only 385,000/. among a popu l at i on o f 1,300,000. ran leverage Of the last fi ve y ears , th e num b er o f s hi ps , W ards Was 605, with a t onnage o f 1 4 1 ,000, an d o f t h ose _eea r ed outward was 138,000, though during the last year c 4 se numbers had declined respectively to 417 ships in ,tatdti, , %tith a tonnage of 87,000, and 569 ships outwards, & tonnage o f 1 09.000. On an average of the last Ole Anap.oeee „bad, beereso9s.ooo/., although last ' r Vie' -Vltirlinet& to 931,0094 ,The exports, during the 4 " 440'1,158,000c but last year 1,128,000!., ef if .. - -eteili, o l ytning:One way or the other, to upwards of .1,.. 3 .77 !,O rellyeettials. During th e y ear 1844, no l ess t h an , t . !IlliliT of wool h a d b een i mported i nto this country 41413 nes and if be mi g ht t respass s till f urt h er, h e wou ld ob til:that'avithin the fifteen years in which this colony had = 43 o ) tight twits present importance, the stock had risen • 1 10 ' w : lbr e , 0 ewes and one ram to flocks consisting in the I....l re g s( te'a 6 ,000,000 sheep; and from two cows and one istielv entl l ee n 'h e e rt rd i s of upwards of 1,200,G00 head of cattle. It had lned that the southern provinces of Australia were in eve and to lY baeeo way fitted f or th e growth of the orange, the mulberry, a adaped for rice, cotton, and o th er pro d ucts o f trop i cal and o t f rn -tro pical countri es . B y t h e establishment of this means nu: 2 an more the benefit s wou ld b e con f erre d oa l arger More pop u l ous countries than any other. He had made an te remarks because he believed that the value of Australia Was very insufficiently known, and with this remark he 'Would move the resolution. Mr. MARK Bolen in seconding the resolution moved by his lion. Friend, Mr. Scott, said he must congratulate Mr. Waghorn on the large and influential meeting which they had, and when he recollected that it was only a few days ago, that a near relative of his own, prevented by indisposi tion from being now present, in conjunction with his friend biz.. Samuel Browning and himself, consulted Mr. Waghorn on the importaut subject for which they had met, be felt :satisfied that whatever Mr. Waghorn undertook he would see carried through; and that the great object would be achieved for which they bad assembled, viz., a steam communication With the colony of Australia, yid India. For some time past in -consequence of the urgent entreaties of friends in Austra lia, this most important subject had occupied the serious attention of the agent for Australia (Mr. Scott), and Mr. Browning, a gentleman intimately acquainted with Australia and her coasts, as well as the different islands in the Indian Archipelago. We well knew from experience that Mr. Scott Would urge the claim of Australia for this great commercial boon with the Government, with his usual energy and atten tion, but it appeared to us that the initiative must be taken in the City, and that Government would wait for this: our eye was immediately directed to that man, who having brought Bombay within twenty-six days and eight hours of London, might likewise bring Sydney, New South Wales, within fifty-six days a n d e i g ht h ours of the British Metropolis. Mr. Waghorn was of all men the man to be consulted; he to whom all classes, com mercial and otherwise, were under so heavy a debt of grati tude. "Palmam qui mei-ail ferat." Some people had, in reference to a steam communication with Australia, mooted the idea of the route by Panama; my humble opinion differed front theirs, coincii ling entirely with my friend Mr. Phelps Robinson, the Mem her for Melbourn, who so ably brought the subject before the Legislative Council of New South Wales in September last, when he moved an address to the Queen, praying "Her Majesty would be graciously pleased to extend to the colony the benefit of the arrangements under which malls are dispatched by steam communication to India and China on the same terms as other British colonies." By a reference to Mr. Ri 'binson's statement, the route from Point de Galle and Singripore to Sidney North and South, about are. distinctly show n. Mr. Waghorn, without any previous knowledge of Mr. F tobinson's views, had come to the same conclusion. "Why, G ent l emen, " he said, " the road is now opened to you by that great and successful company the Peninsular and Oriental. Take your departure from Port de Galle or Singapore--the latter if you follow my advice; but do not tell me th it via South America, with an increase of 'distance of two thousand miles, and no places to coal at, is the shortest way to Australia." I hope ere =shall be enabled to enlist the sympathies of the Earl of St. Germinas, Colonel blaberlev, Mr. Lawrence, and Mrd Campbell, the high authorities at the Post Office ; for they may be assured tnat whenever a steamalc4ro6wm7iiBubnliecuantiionn_ with Australia is established, the number of letters and news- PaPerssunder the ieresent postal arrangements, "ail be vastly increased. Ido nit wish to detain e the meeting by entering into statistics; butt, with their give an extract from Mr. Robinson's retuns,rmw7i7elohn, teresting :—ln 1844, roc eived from LondeT 105;087 newspapers •; from Liverpool 2.182 letters l t 7s r l s B nevtepapere; total letters received , . 68,500; totalne wsa ' ners re. ceiased, 106,105. Sent to London, in 184 4 , 6 6 8 , 2 , 26022 newspapers;letters, .9 1,2 newspapers; to Liverponl, 2,890 letters, total letters sent, 68,6 . 4 ; total newspapers sent, 95,134. Re ceird from Calcutta, Bombay, and Madras, 2,855 letters; 651 newspapers. Sent to Calcutta, Bombay, Madras, ems Ceylon, 2,491 letters; 3,779 ,newspapers. To attempt to define a limit to €he advantages which the introduction of steam would afford Australia isi impossible, but there can be no question as to the following. It would facilitate the investment of capital for the'gradual development of the boundless resources of Australia and New Zealand. It would establish much greater confidence in all mercantile transactions connected as - Witt:se colony by preventing loss from overstocked markets, and- also obviatri the inconvenience arising from the scarcity of supplies of Ertropean merchandise. It would enable the itnerchantk and shippers in the colony to duly effect insurance of their ships and merchandise in England. It would enable East India invalids either to settle or recruit their health in that most congenial climate, the distance to Swan River only occupying 14 days, to Sydney 30. It would lead to a large emigration of a highly respectable class of capi talists, with their wives and families, who are at present de terred undertaking the voyage from its tediousness. A steam communication would therefore be of incalculable advantage to the colony, both morally and politically. It would greatly facilitate the pacification of New Zealand, by affording the rneans of promptly introducing the requisite precautionary measures in case of need. It would likewise produce the same effect as in Australia, by eneouragiug the introduction of wealthy settlers, and the consequent employment of the native population. It, would be of the utmost advantage by affording facilities for the further extension of the present Pacific trade carried on from our Australian colonies, and the civilisation of the inhabitants of the islands in the Pacific ocean. It would enable us promptly to anticipate and frus trate any attempts of foreign aggression, either upon our aettlements or trade in those seas. It would accelerate the introduction of numerous necessary reforms in the local go vernments of the Australian colony, and permit public pi t m e en in England to exert its salutary influence on the acts of suffering the most grievous wrongs to which they are at pre- sent constantly subjected. In conclusion, by the establish ment of an Australian setneadme, co mmunication, the entire link between Great Britain ee With II the colonies will be complete, as well as those ecloni Merach other respectively. After a few words from elf!-vderson, line -which would make the Isle . in favour of a m Mr. Byarance the point of rest, and other observations fro itself to the particular route by to the meeting pledging Ls Smith, who objected Singapore, The CisalastaX stated, that as aerate exceedingly desirable , o?btain it, avoided the to have unanimity- he had, in or as specialty of the motion, and it w the establish effect, that this meeting highly therefore, altered to the with went of steam communicellon with Australolf - d that aOn the the moot of Mr. Whit, it was resolase mittee sln s ald be appointed to k, take measures for establishing the lie, and and such s.Ssistance as the Government might be res s ay . to render. , 'Me motion having been carried, Captain BARBEE said that, before movingno Herr plan, reeolu hich was very for, in tion, he wished to observe that this g, NI. 1836, he had himself called a meetin merously attended, at which meeting a committee adrybneetn formed. Nor had they been idle, for they had made a report to a subsequent meeting, and he would, therefore, that some such plan as was then a d opted should n su o g sr t s i t e followed. Aftersome conversation, on the suggestion of the Chairman the movers and..seconders of the resolutions were then ap. Pointed . a committee, with power to take evidence, and to report at some subsequent meeting what, in their opinion, was the best route to Australia. ~,. Thanks were then moved to Mr. Waghorn, for calling the 2 ,'" o e e.tilli3`, •and for his energy and courage in opening the and toe. India. Thanks were also voted to the Chairman, Use meeting broke ~., P UNISHMENT.—The paragraph with . this by whic denteared in The Suu yesterday, WU written} 1 COrreSPOI 1 IMPERI that the House would analyse the mode in which this B su a m rone w t as had to be ex brought fended. i noie B T a h l e to ß e i n g c h o t Honourable uragedrnin. age ; and had that Bill been introduced last autumn, it might have been attended with considerable benefit. He was not going to say that that Bill might not be use ful in some small degree, but he was very much afraid that the Right Hon. Baronet would find it altogether in applicable to meet this distressing crisis. The Right Hon. Baronet enumerated among his measures, that which granted certain loans, for the improvement of land under the order of the Board of Public Works. The Right Honourable Baronet also alluded to some great undertakings for promoting the improvement of navigation in Ireland. He (Mr. S. O'Brien) had heard of no such works being yet commenced. The Right Hon. Baronet had, however, informed them that 20,0001., a part of the greater sum of 400,000, had oeen laid aside for this purpose. The Right Hon. Baronet also stated that the County Presentments Act would bring into cir culation an expenditure of 100,0001. Now he' (Mr. O'Brien) could inform the Right Hon. Baronet that, with only one or two exceptions, the grand juries had decided that this measure was altogether inapp:ieable to meet the present distressing crisis. That Act would go, not to the benefit of the labouring elasses, but to people who did not require assistance. Another of these measures was the Fisheries Act. He thought that it was a very good Act, and hoped it would be successful, but so far as be had observed during his residence in Ireland, it had not come into operation, nor was there any appearance of it. There remained only another Act for him to speak of, and that was the Public 'Works (Ireland) Bill. It would be a very useful Act if the Government would only facilitate its operation. Public meetings had been held In many parts of Ireland to promote and expedite the operation of this Bill. The amount sanctioned to be expended by the provisions of the Bill was 50,000/., and that would just give ls. per head to a mil lion of people, and thus it seemed that in the course of a few months a million of individuals would require the assistance it was intended to give. A very large number of applications had already been made to Government for employment under the provisions of the Bill. He confessed that with reference to those provisions, they seemed most desirable in their nature, but he thought that it was the duty cf the Government to bring to the aid of the local exertions made on this emergency the funds derived from general contribution and from the grant of the state. The consequence of such a proceeding would be, that the people, instead of applying for public and indiscriminate charity, would be employed, and the works undertaken to give them employment would be such as would be useful in themselves. He asked the Right Hon. Gentleman to state to the House what he knew with respect to the applications that had been made for employment on those works, for which 53,000/. had been granted. He (Mr. Smith O'Brien) believed that the applications already made would warrant the expen diture of 500,000/. He could not refrain from expressing his regret that Government should think it necessary to couple the question of Ireland with the question of the corn-laws. An attempt had been made to give that country cheap food by opening the ports ; but other documents independent of that were required. He was one of those who differed from the great majo rity of the Hon. Members on his side of the House—he meant a measure in reference to corn, which he had no doubt would be of service to this country, but would for many years be very injurious to Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) If, indeed, the duty was to be taken off foreign oats, and the article to be admitted into Ireland duty free, he would support it, because the price of oats in Ireland had risen to an enormous height. Well, then, again he would say that still more unfair and ungenerous had been the conduct of the Government to Hon. Members on his side the House who differed from him, in coupling this measure with the question of the Repeal of the Union.—(Hear, hear.) Was it fair then to taunt Hon. Members on this side the House with throwing impedi ments in the way of the people of Ireland getting the means of relief because they would not consent to a measure which would be the greatest infliction that country could suffer?—(Hear.) Wby, the Irish Members had no remedy. If they had not adopted this course they would lose all confidence of the Irish people, unless they opposed the Bill in all its stages.—(Hear, hear.) But he trusted they would be able to compel even Eng lish majorities—even an English House of Commons— to understand at last that the arguments that Irish Members used against this measure were so fraught with justice, that that Bill could never pass the House. —(Hear, hear.) The Right H on . G ent l eman had spoken about alienating the feelings of the Irish people from the Government of this country. He (Mr. S. O'Brien) found that the feelings of the Irish people had, by the conduct of the Government, been deeply, perhaps irrevocably, alienated from this Parliament. He regretted that the present Government had thought it necessary to couple measures of coercion with those which they had brought in for the removal of the evils with which Ireland laboured. Yet such was the case. What, then, he might ask, if the people of Ire land bad had a Legislature of their own ? Would they have suffered those evils to continue so long ? What would have been the course pursued by an Irish Government ? An Irish Govern ment would have summoned an Irish Parliament to meet early in November ; and would have suggested such measures as would have anticipated the evil, and would not have waited until the calamities had actually occurred, till the last moment of relief ; and would have taken such measures as would have effectually prevented that mischief, for which sufficient provision could not be made by the Government at present in power. Neither would they have committed the error of coupling measures of coercion with the measures for re lief, and would have used their utmost endeavours to remove those evils by means within their command, and would have found in their national resources that guarantee of :meccas which would have availed to restore confidence, and save one-half of the mischief which now was inevitable. Under these circumstances, whatever loss of life might occur from the scarcity of food known to prevail, and whatever the mischiefs that might arise from consequent collisions, for these and for all the other evils that might arise, he should hold the members of her Majesty's Government wholly and solely responsible.—(Cheers.) Sir J. GRAHAM said, that however anxious he was to answer to the responsibility which the Hon. Gentle man had thrown upon him, he felt responsibl e t o th e House to bring the adjourned debate to as early a con clusion as possible, and he should, therefore, confine himself to answer a few of the questions which the Hon. Gentleman had put. In doing so, he would in the first place appeal to the House, and he might also appeal to the Honourable Gentleman himself, whether he had ever concealed his opinion from the information which he had received of the extent of the calamities under which Ireland was suffering, and of the proba bility that the pressure would increase rather than diminish as the summer advanced. Still more might he appeal to them whether he had ever endeavoured to con ceal the extent of the mischief, and whatever might be the result, of this he felt assured, that the House and the country would acquit them of any intentional neglect, and would relieve the Government of all responsibility for the present condition of Ireland. At the same time, he was aware, from the unusual cha racter of the calamities, that it was no small matter for the Government to be called upon to feed an entire people. Those aware of what the functions of a Government were might readily understand that there existed no machinery for that purpose ; and it was necessary to create a machinery to meet the case. Some allowance, therefore, must be made if the arrangements were not so complete as to be able to meet every possible phase of the evil. He must, however, say, in reference to the statement made by the Hon. Member, with regard to persons who had died from famine, that the Government had received no ac count of any deaths having occurred from this cause. He did not rely upon the circumstance of the poor-houses not being filled as any argument of absence of scarcity. In neither of those cases referred to were the work houses full. The Hon. Gentleman, and those surround- ing him, who recommended large gratuities to be given to the Irish people, one and all said, that with respect to the able-bodied the mode of relief should be by wages. On this point, then, they were all agreed. That was the legitimate mode of meeting the evil. Then, as to what the Honourable Gentleman had said with respect to the introduction of Indian corn into Ireland, he (Sir James Graham) had already stated to the House that the Government, on its own responsi bility, had departed from the accustomed practice—he had almost said the legitimate course—and ordered a large importation of Indian corn into Ireland, for the relief of the people during the continuance of the disease and famine engendered by the failure of the potato crop. They did not, however, intend, neither did they consider that that supply would meet all the demands of the Irish people during this emergency. But at any rate its introduction would prevent an undue increase in the price of provisions ; for instance, meal was one-third dearer this year than during more than three of the preceding years, but they anticipated that the introduc tion of this corn would prevent people from withholding food from the markets in order to get high prices and regulate the supply of the necessaries of life in the different markets of Ireland. It was, how ever, difficult to regulate the supply of food, but the Government would do their best to do so. They never attempted to say that the quantity of Indian corn was sufficient to meet the demands of the Irish people ; but they said this,—that the supply, regulated by proper officers, would prevent the rising of the prices of food. iinpplies of corn, in addition to those supplied which was so suspended by a Treasury LthaergGeovernment, had been imported . into Ireland, duty moderate price, now that the sold as cheap as oatmeal. order, and was in consequence . . l l i d ad at bee a n lion. Gentleman agree able and nutritious food. Now, thef had justly observed, that cases o extreme .. midst of It was found, as the Government anticipated, an the Hon. hear.) Now, he was sure plenty.—(Hear, . might be the Gentleman would admit that whateverimpossible accompanied with loss of life, existed in the they could accomplish all theywished, if they were efforts of the Government, it was quite that were alone to meet the emergency, instead .of them—(Hear.) The lion. Gentleman . asked him what distress prevail ingpersons of influence stepping forth generously and aiding the Government had done to meet the another, which was this—What had the wea lthy in Ire'and, but be would meet his question by landowners of Ireland done?—(Cheers.) The Govern ment had used their very utmost to meet the evil.— (Hear.). Nearly a fortnight ago a gentleman (as we understood) proceeded to Ireland to facilitate the dis tribution of the food which the Governmenthad provided. The Hon. Gentleman had referred to the Grand Jury Act; that was a measure to which the Government offered to advance 100,000/. for the carrying out of sub stantial public works, this would have circulated a great deal of money, and would have employed a great number iof hands. It was left to the discretion of the Irish land lords. They h ave re f use d , an d very general l y so, to avail themselves of it. He regretted that such was the fact, as if it bad been adopted it would ban been the means of conferring vast benefits upon the people.— (Hear.) There was much truth in the observation of the Honourable Gentleman, with respect to the Drainage Act ; it might have been introduced earlier there was no doubt, but it was introduced when the emergency was found to be press ing. There was no truth in the assertion that there had been no opportunity for advances of money under that Act : he was happy to say that there were many already ; and under the Public Works Act from 30,0001. to 40,0001. had already been ex pended.—(Hear, hear.) Works undertaken under this Act he had no doubt would add permanently to the wealth and power of Ireland, and temporary distress would be the means of advancing and securing her pros parity. He was therefore decidedly an advocate of the Pub - lie Works Act, es a legitimate means of affording relief. All the recommendations of the Commissioners on the Public Works in Ireland were laid before the Govern ment, and they were then judged by their merits. The Hon. Gentleman had said that an Irish Parliament, and an Irish Government, would have acted in a different spirit with regard to the distress in Ireland. He (Sir J. Graham) really could not think that an Irish Parliament would have acted in a spirit more frank, more generous, or more just, than the British Parliament towards Ireland under the present circumstances. He relied on the feeling of that House ; he relied on the feeling and generosity of the other House of Par liament for such measures as would relieve the wants of the people of Ireland. He was sure that any recommendations for public works would be met in a proper spirit, such, indeed, as the emergency de manded. The Hen. Member in alluding to the landlords of Ireland, toll the House that they employed as many labourers on their estates as their fortunes would allow. He considered that a system of parochial relief to the able-bodied labourer would reduce him to the degrad ing position of a pauper—his spirit would be lowered and the tone of society generally deteriorated He did not consider that a proposition of that nature should be entertained without consi derable caution. It has been proposed by another Hon. Member to call en Irish Parliament as early as possible for the purpose of considering these matters. The Government were not responsible for not doing so. —(Laughter and cheers.) He did not consider that the great question of reform could any longer be postponed with justice to Ireland; he thought that an immediate settlement of the question was necessary to alleviate the distress in Ireland. It was not possible to do so out of the public funds. He did hope that they might now pro ceed with the first reading of the Irish Protection to Life Bill. He did hope that after —he would not say the un necessary delay—that after the five nights' debate which they had already had upon the subject, that Irish Members would allow the first reading to take place, and that they might proceed with the question which now pressed for an immediate decision. He alluded to w h ( o f T h e o e g a h h r he didad us t notsa sat con the proposed me a s ures f or re d uc i ng t h e amount of duty upon the importation tci ihi ofßight t i f s o ao r in e : g nu that acro Baronet nn although M cu with r.r B. lißo the l down as to the desirableness of proceeding with this Bill, he would not detain the House at any great length with a view of interrupting its progress. He did not be lieve that the Government intended doing much for the substantial relief of the people of Ireland. I was quite true that the Right Honourable Baronet had uttered sentiments of commiseration and feeling for the Irish people. The Right Hon. Baronet had also uttered a strong rebuke to the landlords of Ireland for not aiding the Government to the best of their power in relieving the wants of the people. For those sentiments, as far as they went, he (Mr. Roche) thanked him ; but, at the same time, he should be better pleased did he hear the Right Honourable Baronet coming forward as the representative of the Executive Go vernment of this country, and saying that the Go vernment did indeed, in point of feet, intend doing something substantial towards relieving the calamities and distresses of the people, and that it was their intention to provide ample means for supply. ing the people of Ireland with food. He did not intend to make any allusion to the question between his Hon. Friend the Member for Limerick and the Right Hon. Baronet, as to whether an English or an Irish Parlia ment would do most for the relief of the people of Ire land. He would also refrain from saying anything about the vexata questio of the poor-laws, but this he would say that the Government of this country, if they took upon themselves the government of Ireland, cught to do something more plausible than making plaus ible and feeling speeches—they ought to do something more substantial for supplying the people of Ireland with food. Now the Right Hon. Baronet had thrown himself to a certain extent (if he might use the expres sion) upon the indulgence of the House with regard to the difficulty which the Government felt in obtaining and introducing into Ireland food for the people. —(Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet had told them that there was a great want of machinery in the Government. His Honourable Friend the Member for Limerick had alluded to the mode in which the Indian wheat had been distributed by the offi cer of the Government in the city of Cork. Now, with out imputing to the Government any intention of aggra vating the distress of the people at the present moment, he would, at the same time, tell them that the effects of the acts of the Government, with regard to the distribution of that corn, was to aggravate, in a very serious degree, the distress of the people in the south of Ireland. Now, what were the facts ?—and one fact was better than a thousand arguments. The distress in Cork was very great, and the gentlemen in that city assembled and formed themselves into a relief committee, and elected a secretary. At that time there was a depot in Cork, containing a large supply of Indian meal. An application was made to the secretary of the Relief Committee in Dublin, stating the distress of the people—distress which he (Mr. Roche) knew, from his own knowledge, was not exaggerated—and calling upon him to allow a distribution of the Indian meal in depot at certain prices—in fact at cost price. The secretary, after some deli beration, acceded to this request, and a considerable quantity of meal was distributed among the poor of Cork. So far, so good. But when the quantity which they were allowed to distribute was expended they re newed their application to the Secretary in Dublin, and their first letter was unanswered.—(Hear.) On the second application, they received a letter, which :his Hon. Friend had read to the House, and which was written by the Dublin secretary. That letter stated that in point of fact the Government had changed their minds with regard to the distribution of the meal, and that the people of Ireland were to be thrown upon their own resources. The consequence of this was, that an impression went abroad that not only for the present, but for a long time afterwards, the government were not prepared to do anything for re lieving the distresses of the people. Thus, they created a very great discontent among the people of Ireland, because they, in the first instance, raised their hopes by holdin out to them, and in part realising, that food would be afforded them at reasonable prices, and afterwards they turned round and said in effect we have food here, but you shall not get more of it. That course, as he had said, created a feeling of dissatislaction ; but it did even worse, for the speculators in corn in Cork, and Liver pool, and other places, had the opportunity of reading this letter, as well as those to whom it was addressed, and they naturally enough said to themselves this food is to be shut up for some months still ; and they therefore raised the prices of Indian meal. Those prices were raised in consequence of this letter which had been received from Dublin. Sir J. GRAHAM seemed to express dissent. Mr. ROCHE—The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to express dissent, but he (Mr. Roche) had a painful know ledge of the fact, because he was then in treaty for the purchase of a large amount of Indian meal for his own people in Ireland, and he was aware that it was much higher than it had been a fortnight ago. He entreated the Right Honourable Baronet to consider the dissatisfaction and discontent that this pitiful mode of distributing relief in Ireland was cre ating among the poorer classes in that country. It was impossible for any man to exaggerate the distress and the want of food that existed in every district in Ireland. He knew himself that in a district of the county of Cork, which for years past had sup plied the whole of the country with food, at this moment the people were actually consuming for pre sent use the only potatoes they had kept for seed for the following year. He would wish to impress on the Right Hon. Baronet the consideration, that if it were possible for Government to give any supply of Indian meal, there never was a time when it would be of so much importance to the people, as it would allow them to lay up something for the following year. He hoped he had misunderstood the Right Honourable Baronet, or that he had misinterpreted that part of his speech which conveyed to his mind the impression that, in point of fact, the supply of Indian corn in the country was a experience went, th e land lords in his part of the count r y —al ways excepting the the e that Rg i h t t w H o o u a l d o u g r i a v b e e h i ß m a r g o r n e e a t t , d power aygoup i n a eg y c a o e n w , d a rhd butse they found that it was almost a n i mpossibility to obt a i n food mere trifle—he could commencedewaysenryineteen. He had p as lea f s a u r re a . s h ln is an in sw di e v r id tZ andnot mo mentagtivtheistnetnralieringthe absentees—were com putation, over for them. He understood ev erything relati ng t o p h raadc farmedtical farming. 1 d distress tdreeisesgowf what t e i n s surrounding he had the management of from 3 ,000 to 4,000 e n 4 since o o farmedpeople. He 0r paid q e acres tu them, m f t o i , r t quantities e b s h u o t f land, ould food, and every one knew that they co u ld not eat the acres. He employed, at a moderate money. It was almost an absolute i mpossibility to obtain food; in fact, the difficulty was so great, that as soon as he could be free from an important duty which he had to perform, and which he might perform in the course of next week, and perhaps should on— (" Hear, hear," from the Opposition)—he go to Liverpool, n order to obtain a supply of food for his own people. He trusted, therefore, that the Governm ent would im mediately turn their attention to the increase of the store of Indian meal, for it was upon that alone that a grew portion of the population depended for their food, and the obtaining any other kind of food Was quite out of the question. They would understand this when he said that the best description of potatoes cost one shilling per stone, and that ten-pence was commonly given for them, which was altogether under the mark. The regular price would be threepence for the common sort, and fourpence and five pence for the best. He did not mean to say that the people commonly obtained potatoes at that price, for that price was merely nominal, and if he were to go to a man who had 100 tons in his possessio n, his answer most probably would be that ho did not know whether he had sufficient for his own seed. And this was the case with every portion of Ireland, and he believed that if they were permitted to use their seed potatoes, they would not have three weeks' consumption remaining throughout the country.—(Cheers.) H e had made it his business to inquire, from his own neighbourhood right up to the mountainous districts, and what he had just asserted he believed to be the plain fact, namely, that after the con sumption of the seed-potatoes then would not remain three week's supply. He hoped the Government would excuse him, for he did not mean to read them a lecture, but he did sincerely trust that they would not lose a moment in apply ing to America for a suffieitnt supply of Indian meal. It would be better to do this now than to wait until the eleventh hour, and leave the people of Ireland the Fad alternative of lying down by the road side to perish, or of turning round upen the country gentlemen, and taking possession of their property, and committing other outrages of which they and the Go vernment would most bitterly repent. Ile was the more anxious upon this point, as he saw no promise in the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech, and he could not there fore refrain from remembering an old saying, that soft words butter no parsnips. He trusted, however, that the Government would take some such steps as those which he had recommended. Sir R. PEEL said he could assure the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down that her Majesty's Government had very recently received the fullest confirmation of the melancholy picture he had drawn of the distress in Ireland, and he begged to remind the Hon. Gentlemen that it was not more than a fortnight ago that tie Government were endeavouring to defend themselves from charges of exaggeration upon this subject. The House should also remember that Government had been devoting themselves earnestly to the introduction of measures for the amelioration of this distress ; and with a view to convincing the House that distress did exist, they had ordered certain returns to be lai.l upon the table ; and when that was done, it was stated to be all exaggeration, while in fhet those returns had just been confirmed by the Hon. Gentleman who had just come over from that country.—(leare hear.) The charges that the Government were attempting to mitigate that distress, not by practical measures, but by fine speeches, he would meet in this way. No doubt the Governmert would be highly culpable to pursue such a course ; but he did think they should get credit for endeavouring to avoid such measures a) might perhaps aggravate instead of mitigate those evils.—(Hear, hear.) If by the inter ference of the Government, any measures could be intro duced that would have a practical effect, he would admit that no consideration of a pecuniary nature should weigh for a moment with the Government.—(Hear, hear.) But in such a matt r the interference of the Government might have a very injurious effect. He could assure the House that the utmost caution should be exercised b,- the Government in dealing with such measures, lest by a temporary mitigation of the distress, they might be lay ing the foundation for much greater misery hereafter.— (Hear, hear.) Now, let him take the last observation of the Hon. Gentleman. lie said, "fir God's sake, send over to America for more Indian corn." Let them take care that they did not interfere with he natural and legitimate supply of this commodity and the exertions of individuals. In the early part of No vember, when no steps were taken in reference to an alteration in the corn law—when Indian meal was un known —many persons then questioned the authority of the Government to interfere. The Government, how ever, sent out an order, seeing that there was a prohi bitory duty on the article, to bring in a very large quantity of it ; but when Indian meal could be imported at a ls. per quarter, it did not follow that the measure which was wise and expedient in November last would be wise now. The first effect which the pro ceeding would have would be to raise the price of Indian meal, and the second would be embarrassment to the merchant. He mentioned these things as a proof that the Government were influenced, not by an indifference to the necessities of the people, but by a sincere con viction that a compliance with the recommendations made to them would do injury, and aggravate the existing evils. At the present moment oatmeal was one-third higher in price than during the last two or three years, so that by introducing, Indian corn they were not driven to subsist on a high priced, but on a generous and moderate priced food, lie did trust that the introduction of this corn would give the Irish people a taste for a higher descrip tion of food, and increased industry to obtain it, and, in fact, lay the foundation of a better state of things in Ire land. By preventing the Irish labourer from placing entire dependence on the prevalent Irish food—the watery po tato—would conifer great and lasting good upon them. —(Cheers.) If the Government had announced their in tention of entirely supporting the whole Irish people during the prevalence of the distress now extant in Ire land, they would have done much mischief—more than any step whatever—because they would thereby have in duced benevolent individuals to relax their exertions in behalf of the poor.—(Hear, hear.) If the Government were at once to relieve the Irish clergy of all denomina tions. Irish farmers, all above the labouring classes, who now lent their aid to support the indigent, from the moral obligations imposed upon them, they would have insured all the evils of famine.—(Hear, hear.) It was impossible the Government could support four millions of people. The Hon. Gen tleman advised them to be more liberal, and to make a declaration of their means in order to obtain a more ex tended support of the Government measures, and said that many absentee landlords were not performing that duty which resident landlords were performing. He (Sir Robert Peel) thought it unfair to draw this distinc tion, because he knew many absentee landlords who were very generous to the poor.—(Hear, hear.) But if the Government were to express their intention to re lieve the wants of the whole of the suffering Irish peo ple, those who had heretofore relieved their wants would have excused their moral obligations by saying that the Government had unlimited means at their com mand, and might, by commissions of inquiry, have full and accurate information with respect to their condition —would thank the Government for relieving them of the responsibility, and they would take proper measures to alleviate their sufferings. This might occur. It would be utterly impossible for them to relieve cases of individual distress occurring in the wilds of Donegal or Mayo, and therefore they must look to all proprietors, resident and non-resident, for support ; and it was not on the Government that the first responsibility rested.— (Hear, hear.) It was only through their aid they could hope to effect any good. It might be very well for the lion. Gentleman to say that he held him (Sir R. Peel) responsible for every death that occurred. These were dangerous words; they ought not to be made use of ; but they could not make the Government pri marily responsible ; it must rest with those who either are or ought to be resident upon the spot, and upon those especially who, by reason of their non- residence, ought to he more liberal in their contributions. Not by any means wishing to shrink from any responsibility which might be attached to him either officially or individually, he could not allow the responsibility to be attached to an Executive Government which really had no means to effect anything without their aid.—(Hear, hear.) And if the statement was true that the people were eating those potatoes which ought to be preserved for food, was it not a sufficient vindication of the Government for asking a permanent settlement of the corn question? This was his answer to the speech of the Hon. Member for Limerick. He had no wish whatever to say any thing with respect to the Corn Bill during the discussion of this measure. lie wished the Corn and Coercion Bills to be kept separate and distinct.--(Hear, hear.) On whatever other points Hon. Measbers might differ he thought that upon this they would be agreed, viz. the necessity of doing something towards giving permanent r e li e f to t h e people of Ireland. There might be differences of opinion entertained as to the efficacy of the measures which the Government had introduced for the relief of the people of Ireland. Ile could assure the House that it was the wish of her Majesty's Govern ment to meet the wants of the people of Ireland. Day after day and night after night they were occupied with the subject of the present distress in Ireland, and it was their earnest desire that the remedial measures which they had introduced should not be ineffectual. —(Hear, hear.) It had riot been a fear of expense that had dissuaded the Government from bringing forward such measures of relief as had been alluded to by the Hon. Member for Limerick. The fear under which the Government laboured was, that lest their resources might not be sufficiently efficacious ; he could assure the House that it was their anxious wish to relieve, as much as in them lay, the distresses of the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. E. B. ROCHE said that the Right Hon. Baronet had misunderstood him, and had consequently misrepresented him when quoting his language. He (Mr. Roche) had not called upon the Government to come forward and support the people of Ireland, nor had he asked them to take upon themselves the entire responsibility of supporting the people of Ireland. The Irish Members did not ask the Government to extend eleemosy nary assistance to the people of Ireland. What he had said was this, that the Government had themselves come forward as the feeders of the Irish people during their present calamitous dis tress, and that having done se they ought not to have stopped halfway. The Government ought to tell the landlords of Ire land for certainty that in Liverpool, or some other places, they could obtain food for the support of their fellow -countrymen. Sir R. PEEL—That is just what I want to have. I want foreign wheat at 4s. per quarter to mix with oats at about Is. fid. per quarter. Mr. E. B. ROCHE—That may do for another year. Sir 11. PEEL—No ; but for this year. Mr. CALEB POWELL said that by the Right Hon. Baronet's own showing the Government had in this instance, to use a familiar phrase, " placed the cart before the horse." They had introduced coercive when conciliatory measures were absolutely necessary.—(Hear, hear.) Why did not the Go vernment press forward the Corn Bill, instead of introducing this coercive measure ? Sir W. SOMERVILLE was exceedingly glad to hear that the Government intended to augment the funds that had been raised for the relief of the Irish poor. 'llse only thing they could do would be to improve the harbours, so as to find em ployment for the poor. A great deal could be done in this manner. He hoped the report on the state of the harbours in Ireland would be produced as early as possible, in order that something might be done. Mr. COLLETT wished to make a few remarks on the sub ject under consideration. It was in reference to the finding of employment on the railways proposed to be constructed in Ire land. He did not refer to any of the railway Bills of the pre sent session, but to those passed last year, and especially to two, the Wate r f or d an d Li merick and Dundalk and Enniskillen rail ways. These were two excellent lines, but the state of things was such, the calls could not be got, and the works were in consequence delayed. If they could get some assistance by the advancement of money on loan, great relief would be afforded. While he was desirous of doing everything he could to meet the wants of the Irish people, he supported the Coercion Bill as a measure necessarily required, but only of a temporary character. Mr. O'CONNELL would not have addressed the House had not the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) referred to the difference between hi , Hon. Friend (Mr. Smith O'Brien) and him (Mr. O'Connell) on the subject of out-door relief. Whatever opinion he had expressed respecting out-door relief, it was quite clear that the present relief in the poor-houses in Ireland was altogether inadequate.l37,ooo persons were all that were relieved by the poor-houses at present, while there were 2,300,000 in a state of destitution.—( Hear, hear.) The establishments for these 37,000 persons had cost 90,0001. This would show the inadequacy of the system of relief. Still, though he thought nothing could be more ruinous to Ireland than , a system of out-door relief, if the Right Hon. lyrpnet thought proper t o p ropose it, i n th e present state of . Ireland he (Mr. O'C onne ll) was w illi ng t o s acrifice hiso a p r ini } on t and had support it.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Non. lo,e also referred to the failure of the drainage sjstem in Ireland, but that was not attributable to the plans of the Government, but to other causes. He must say the Go v ernment had shown every disposition to relieve the condition of Ireland, I and that the course they had taken had been fully vindicated r that night; still he thought they had not done enough. The dist- e s was overwhelmin g ,disturbances had broken out, and might extend so as to render all their future precautions una vailing. They had a fearful period before them; and notwith s'anding what they had done, they would do well to put in operation the Board of Works, and also to consider whether it would not be well to appoint a Commissioner to inquire into the resident landlords, and the absentees, with the object of rating them iii order i o meet the present crisis, care being taken to discriminate between the two classes of landlords. Their duty would not be performed unless they did everything in their power to counteract the alarming state of things; and in doing so, they ought not to despond, as a feeling of that kind going abroad was calculated to do great injury. —(Hear. ) Mr. M'CARTHY gave the Government credit for an anxious desire to relieve the wants of Ireland, still he had to complain of the way in which the commissary at Cork had given out relief. He had only supplied Indian corn for a day, and had refused further supplies, or to send it into the interior. lie wool 1 ask the Right Hon. Baronet if he was aware that Indian meal, when ground, was liable to fermentation andcon sequent loss? lie would also press the Right Hon. Baronet for information as to the instructions the commissary at Cork was acting under in withholding the supplies. He was of opinion that the Government should allow Indian corn to be sold at the cost price. Colonel VERNER. said that the scarcity described to prevail in the south of Ireland did rot exist in that portion of the country in which he had lately been. At the last assizes of the county of Down the grand jury dii not consider it neces sary to enforce the provisions of the present Bill, the state of the county not requiring it. He had been in the county of Fermanagh for five weeks, and he had never heard of any scarcity—in fact it was remarked that never since the war was there such a good time for the paying of rents. Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN wished to explain He denied that in opposing the Coercion Bill he was delaying the measures the n ( . 1 e I B ay a i. l o a n y , I t s i lo t h a ci the I. lt , o l i n n d i s e t r e e r t s o , o dnotwhat a t t v i l t , l o i l a i , i i m i d . for th e re li e f o f the people of Ireland. The responsibility of compelledt h o a a d up al n w o a r s t •s th c o on , t i e e n st d i e to d te th , a a t nt,iliethat ab T o h o t t , Right iooal a landlordsgeno general otualxd on property was necessary and proper for that purpose. Mr. JOHN O ' CONNELL said he rose to call the attention of the Government to document • a which had been to him, and transmitted which referred to a point that had not been touched upon. The Hon. Gentleman had read the document question, whi c h was to the effect that it would not be possib i l n e to supply Indi an corn meal f as t enoug h to the people, from deficiency of mill-p ower i n that part of the country. It s'tat'esal that Sir R. P. el had caused to be purchased 100,00 N. worth of Indian corn at the rate of a penny a pound, which made 24,000,0001b5. All that had been imported into Cork was 11,000,0001b5., of which a very small quantity had been dis tributed, the commissary refusing to supply any more at present. In addition to this quantity it was said the only stock at present in England was 45,000 quarters. To give 4.000,000 of people a pound of meal each, 14,825 barrels would be re quired. He ( Mr. J. ('Connell) would not pledge himself as to the truth of this statement, but he had received it from a person who knew a good deal of the county of Cork, and con siderably acquainted with the state of the country. He (Mr. J. O'Connell) would say a few words on the general subject. The question was one of great difficulty, and great allowance should be made on bath sides. —( Cries of " Hear, hear.") He gave the Government full credit for an anxious and earnest desire to do the best they could in the present crisis ; and though the present discussion had been deprecated, he thought it would be useful, as it would show the House was not inattentive to the necessities of the case; and that if the Government withheld definite information, it was because they thought such a course would impede useful operations. He was sorry to hear the Right Hon. Baronet say that the introduction of Indian corn would give the people of Ireland a taste for better food. No good would arise if the taste was only given to them for a moment ; the only way to give them a better taste was to provide them with better means. It was poverty that inevitably drove them to inferior food ; give them better means of purchasing food, and they would soon have a taste for it. He had just another remark to make. With respect to what had been said about the importance of the resident landlords in meeting the evils of Ireland, he saw in that a strong argument bearing in favour of a local Parliament. Mr. FITZGERALD said that from the accounts received that day, disturbances had taken place in Tipperary, ( lonmel, and several other towns in Ireland, in which the people had risen and helped themselves out of the bakers' shops. The state of things was so dreadful that the military had been called out, as well as the police employed to suppress the disturbances. He would ask, had the agents of the Government acted according to instructions in refusing to send food into the interior, so as, by granting a supply, to prevent the occasion of the people resorting to such illegal means. Feeding that political agitation contributed to agrarian out rage, he was anxious to remove all causes or excuse for it. He was anxious to restrict political agitation to all causes which had nothing to do with personal interests.—( Hear.) It was impossible for a people accustomed to combine against the oppression from oligarchical communities, accustomed to resist the power of authority which in their eyes was backed enly by selfish motives. Was it necessary for him to describe the present condition of Ireland ? They lived in a state of feverish , and unhealthful excitem en t, and the consequence was that the , people could not resist the temptation to oppose the claims for even legitimate authority. He for one would not be content to rest upon vague promises. Would they give equal rights with themselves ? Would the Right lion. Baronet consumato the Emancipation Act? Would he legislate for that extremity which was fast impending and not wait until that extremity arose ? Would he remove that cause of differenee which was exhibited in the portion of the Anglican Church in Ireland ? That was the base of their national disseverence and of poli tical subservience. Why was it that no Member of the Catholic faith was not posses se d of a place in the Cabinet? Was it not true that to be associated with them was a signal for his expulsion from the body to which be properly belonged ? But it was the business of him who was in possession of power to abridge this struggle. The sectarian policy it was that deprived the Government of the national confidence, but if they would ameliorate their political and religious wrongs, they would confederate with them, and act in concert in the repression of outrage and the stop page of agrarian imposition. If they would not, how ever, then the Government must expect that the Trill people would refrain from any such concert, and they would not only not refrain, although by the doing so they might not prevent, but be the cause of the increase of crime. Then as to the Bill itself, he had great objections. He thought that the punish ment of transportation was too great for the offence met by this Bill—an evil which he conceived might be justly met by a longer or shorter period of imprisonment. And, further, as to the expenses of this Bill. Why was it that the tenants on the several estates were to bear an expense to which, in justice, they were in no way liable? He trusted that the House would not accede to the Bill in its present state, because, with. out some sufficient provision for the welfare of the people of Ireland it would in effect be totally inoperative.—( Cheers. ) Mr. CALEB POWELL thought that this Bill would be altogether useless, unless there was some assurance of the re moval of that abuse which rendered the people of Ireland sub servient to the rule of a Church which was abhorrent to their principles, and without the abrogation of which no impartial effect could be produced. He had come to this resolution partly in consequence of the insufficiency of the evidence which the Government had given for this Bill, and lie especially alluded to a certain district in Limerick for the returns of out rages in that district, although lie had moved for them on the 23d of last month, and the officials had not been able to furnish them. Now, with regard to the case of Sir David Roche. What was the fact ? Why, he had been informed by a gentle man who was in the carriage at the time, that Sir D. Roche had not been fired at at all.— (" But what does Sir D. Roche say ?" from the Treasury Benches.—( Great laughter. ) lie believed that Sir D. Roche was lying down in the seat of the carriage at the moment. There cer tainly was an explosion, but no missile struck the carriage— ( Laughter )—and he understood from the people of Limerick themselves that it was a ruse of the agents of the police. Now he would turn to the case of the sailor, who was said to have been beaten to death. Why, as to that, it ap peared that the man was absolutely assailed by two milkmaids, such as those who mixed water and chalk together in Caven dish-square.—(Laughter.) He knew that it was said that two men had assailed him, and that he was in a dying state, but he had been assured by persons acquainted with all the facts, that there was not a stronger man in the county of Limerick at the present moment.—(Laughter from the Ministerial benches.) Still further, with respect to the alleged violence done upon a man who held land in Tipperary. From what he had heard there was no ground for these assertions, and the Right Hon. Baronet would act upon very insufficient grounds, if he allowed these to influence him in bringing in a Coer cion Bill for any part of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) There was another case which the Right Hon. Baronet had quoted, as furnishing a ground for the introduction of the mea sure. The Right Hon. Baronet had said, that a respectable gentleman, of the name of Wilson, had been obliged to leave his place of residence in the county of Clare, through fear of being made a victim of lawlessness by the tenants around him. He (Mr. Powell) had known Mr. Wilson for many years, and had found hint to be a very respectable and intelligent gentle man, and he really believed that he was of very great service to the district in which he formerly resided. But he (Mr. Powell) felt per:ectly certain that that gentleman need enter tain no such fears as had been alluded to by the Right lion. Baronet on his introduction of the measure. There were no reasons why he should not exercise all the legitimate rights of his property in Clare, without entertaining the slightest f_ z ea i f of molestation on the part of the su r rounding tenantry. l deed, he (Mr. Powell) happened to knew, that the ca uses which induced Mr. Wilson to change his residence were en tirely of a private nature, which he nee d not mention in that House.—(Hear, hear.) And yet the Right Hon. Baronet had referred to the case as evidence that the landed gentry of Ireland were driven from their estates in consequence of the lawless state of the peasantry. Arid even supposing that Mr. Wilson had been obliged to retire from his resi dence in the county of Clrae, from the fears alluded to by the Right lion. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department, did it follow that other gentlemen should entertain similar fears, and be driven to similar deter minations ? He knew m any gent l emen of property that lived in the district from which Mr. Wilson had removed, and yet no attacks whatever had been made upon their lives or pro perties, although he must asimit that his co-religionists, the Protestant gentry of Ireland, were excessively inclined to pos sess anti exercise arbitrary powers over their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects. He also knew a gentleman who had made a great fortune by his trade in the city of Limerick ; and in a conversation which he had with him lately, he asked him whe ther he felt the nocrssity of giving to the magistrates of that district additional coercive powers against the people for the purpose of preserving life and property, when he replied that he certainly did riot ; that he had not a single fire-arm in his house—and that frequently the bars and windows of his house were left unbolted and open at night, and that he had never suffered either in person or property by any acts of the pea santry.—( Hear, hear.) lie believed that the Right Hon. Baronet had admitted that the cases of assassination of the higher classes of society in Ireland were not so numerous nor so shocking as those which had occurred in England. Sir JAMES GRAHAM—I never said that. Mr. POWELL said the Right Hon. Gentleman had said something very like it, or he was very much mistaken. The Right lion. Baronet would perhaps admit that he had said something to this effect—" Perhaps, after all, these cases of assassination in Ireland are not so very much out of the way, or so very numerous, but then the people want to be protected from each other, and that is what our measure is calculated to effect " But where were the petitions of the people praying the House to pass this so-called protective measure? The Right Hon. Gentleman, in introducing this measure, made a very sweeping charge againstthe morality of the people of Ire land. He stated that they were in such a state of social dis organisation that the ordinary law was insufficient to meet their lawless acts. Sir JAMES GRAHAM—I did not say so. Mr. POWELL--Then why did not the Gove r nment leave the people of Ireland to the ordinary operation of the law ? in ( Hear, hear.) He really could not feel anyg rat ification adducing arguments of recrimination for the p ur pose of con trasting the crimes of the people of Ire land with the outrag es as no source of committed by the English people. Itw crimes committed con solation to him to think that if there were even greater . num in Ireland there were crimes of ee.?l, and t. _.( Hear:hear. ) 'n this country.—( ry. . ber and atrocity committed t llinister assassinated in the very Why, was there not a Prime i . id the Prime Minister of that day lobby of that House, and d . with a measure for the coercion of come down to the House Prime Minister of Or did the present this English people ? tary was assassinated a ir the very centre of Westminster ? On ' r `' - these grounds, therefore, he contended that-the Government - did not legislate impartially towards the peopleofilreland. He • could assure the House that if this measure were passed, it would completely fail to secure the objects it contemplated. On the contrary, it would only increase the present calamities of Ireland. If its oppressive clauses were enforced, there would certainly be a lamentable reaction. He could also prove, from documents, that the evidence on which the Government had relied in introducing this mea sure was not such as should be received by the Members of that House, and although it had been stated by the Right Honourable Baronet, the Secretary of State for the Home Department that social order in Ireland was completely disorganised, yet when that young man came to be hanged in the front of the New Bailey the populace greeted him with tremendous cheering.— ( Hear, hear.) So much for the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman as to the immorality of the Irish people. Perhaps the Right lion. Baro ne t wou ld, on re fl ect i on, see t h at hi s as sertion that the people of this country (lid not exhibit that sympathy for criminals which was manifested in Ireland was altogether untrue. Then, on the Bth of April, it appeared that there had been a case of assassination in the county of Oxford together with several other outrageous crimes, and that the total number of crimes committed in that county since the last ass:a-,s was 69. He did not think that the amount of crimes in the county of Limerick would be found to exceed that. Bat it would be a very invidious and disagreeable task for him to go through the catalogue of English criminality. to show that the people of Ireland were equally as moral as the people of this country. Ile was very sorry to find that the Hon. Member for Pomfret was not in his place, because that gentleman had said a fees nights ago that this Act was a very harmless one, and that it would not be considered anything more than a tem porary police co , rectionellc, and that it was impossible for any incolivenience to result from it. Now, in such a case as this, what would the Hon. Member for Pomfret think if the Pro testant people of that part of Yorkshire in which h e resided were to be handed over to the care of Roman Catholic magis trates? Would he not cry out against the abolitio n of the British constitution, &e.? Would he nut become indignant, and express his feelings against such an nnconstitutional proceeding? And yet this measure proposed to place the Roman Catholics of Ireland in the hands of Protestant magistrates, the mac jority of whom had no sympathy for them.—(Hear, hear.) And yet the lion. Member had advised her Majesty's Govern ment to pursue their present course. Mr. Shaw Lefevre had, at one time, in that House, stated, when there were disturb• ances amongst the peasansry of England, that the beat and most effectual way of suppressing those disturbances was by relieving their wants, not by goading them by coercive i (Mr. Powell) tw i l l te e ei m -ree an etina vv d b °Lett:. n d o i c st. c o u r p b i a e n d c t e h se a c m ha o i n r g o s f t. tl 2 7 6o H o ouse? mea sures to outrages still more violent.---( Hear.) And could he quote an authority higher than that of the Right Hon. Gen found that in February, of the present year, engag e d in the constructiono f railwayCar lisle. a in NOW, ir such a t yiaFSLI eilv the people wouldngh had occurred in Ireland, most what measures were in his o now i e .-Ike the liberty of stating —( !leas, hear.) labourers —il e t a h r t ) Ile wouldave pronounced it to be in rebellion. fi alculated tcosrom p l a ce ote the tranquillity of the people of m ien people of Ireland should have the laws impartially administered to them ; the Government must not proscrib e the constitu tional expression of political opinion in that country. He thought that there was a very ample scope for physical amelioration of the people of Ireland, in the reclamation of waste lands.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that it would bea very easy, and a very immediate mode to relieve the great physical destitution that at present existed in Ireland, and he believed that they would be perfectly justified in making eornoulsory powers for the cultivation of those large tracts which were left uncultivated. Then there was another remedy, however, left for them if they would not do these things, and that was the repeal of the legislative union between the twe countries.—( Hear, hear.) If they would undertak a to do that, he would undertake to say that it would immediately improve the condition of the people of Ireland.— ( Hear, hear.) But if they were not prepared to do any of these things, would they adopt the other courses which he had suggested for the amelioration of the Irish people ? If they were net, however, to do any of those things, they might de pend upon it that the people of Ireland would some fine day right themselves. Mr. WARD said that few Members, who were in the House, had had so much experience in Indian corn as himself. He, too, was aware that at a public meeting that had recently been held in Ireland, it was stated that this corn was a sele. o i r gmh a et n ti y ,mti slow poison. Now, he had lived in countries where maize was almost universally used as food by the people, one he had not known a more wholesome food, nor one more capable of enabling l a e e r s n r g h t utcehr diarrhoea fnd t ime the people to endure fatigue. It was a substantial, nourishing, for any wholesome diet, but it had only one fault. It would keep sour.lr o e la n n d t ,l h f e w, ai r grain each h c o a nc r i a t ds ; eb, i h te aetn were o it n w e o a t o s s a g ii dn r o do u hf n c d teh i es t Saxon Government and the Saxon Ministers ? He was happy to say that, at a meeting the other day, a Mr. O'Shea boldly stepped forward, and, in defiance of prejudice, explained the nourishing and wholesome qualities of the fond. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that with regard to the distribution of the fond for the peop le, as they could not k now h ow to use it themselves ; orders had been sent to the agents in Ireland to select officers for the dis tribution of the food ; those persons who had lived most in the counties where the food had been used, and who were ac quainted with the manner in which it should be kept so as to insure its soundness. Mr. J. COLLETT presented a petition from the inhabitants of the town of Athlone against the Coercion Bill, and remon strating against the effects of such a measure. THE ORDERS OF THE DAY. On the motion that the Orders of the day be read, Mr. .J. O'BRIEN said that in rising to address the House on this adjourned debate he had to express his regret that the long and unavoidable discussion which had arisen should have interfered with the progress of those measures of commercial legislation introduced by her Majesty's Government, the speedy adjudication of which he held to be not more essential to trade, to the agricultural interest of the empire, than to the modification of that destitution in Ireland, which was now no longer a matter of speculation but of urgent and unquestionable certainty. He had to regret his absence on a late occasion, when the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Govern ment referred to the Member for Limerick, for he should have offered his testimony in support of the accounts of the distress in Ireland. He should have done so not only on his own know ledge, but on the unsuspected and almost official testimony of the documents which he held in his hand. One was a letter from the high sheriff of the city of Limerick, and the other was an address from the relief committee of the city, bearing the signature of the mayor, the Protestant dean, and the chairman of the poor-law union. With the permission of the House he would read their plain and simple statements. The letters stated that in the city of Limerick the want of food was such that they were not sure that the next moment an outbreak of the people would not take place. The military were kept under arms—a deputation had been sent to Dublin to express the state of affairs to the Executive Government there. He felt that he had been almost censurable in not having submitted to the House before these documents, which were so strongly illustrative of the wants and necessities of the city which he had mentioned, and in which the south western portion of Ireland so fully participated. It was necessary, with facts such as these before the House, to join wise and humane measures with the present measures of relief introduced by her Majesty's Govern ment. He would also remark how overpowering must be that sense of duty which compelled a considerable proportion of the Members for Ireland to resist those measures which the energy of their country was said to have required—when that resist ance was accompanied by the unavoidable delay of the measures for their country's good. That resistance was not alone the re sult of their own determination, but was fully in accordance with the sentiments of people who would not consent to pur chase exemption from physical suffering without a parallel for the surrender of their political rights by a seeming acqui esence with a measure so overstrained, so unconstitutional, and so inoperative as the measure then before the House. He rose to oppose that measure, and as cases of strange suffering and unpunished crime had been demonstrated he telt it to be his duty briefly to state the reasons which determined him to give his opposition to the measure professedly intended to ar rest the perpetration of crime, and to achieve those objects which it must be the general and permanent aim of all Govern. ments to accomplish, safety to property, and protection to life. Did he believe the measure capable of accomplishing these ob jects, no consideration of temporary unpopularity which might arise from advocacy of the measure would deter him from undertaking the responsibility of supporting the measure —( Hear, hear)—for such a motive of resistance would be dis reputable and opposed to his principles. What was the measure before the House ? Had it been fully, perfectly, and irresisti bly demonstrated by its advocates ? No ! and what aggravated that n flection was, that this question was but a bad addition to those past remedies whose inability along and painful experience had rendered manifest. What was the condition of Ireland after centuries of independent legislation, and a century of imperial legislation? It was disturbed, distressed, and inthe di,' position of the peop le perma nently agitated. He could not find any pecu li ar ity of Ireland, nor any phys ica l distinction in the country to which they be longed, which throughout cen turies should have been so disastrous lnt b to t hem and so little pro e wen, instead of devi titable to the English. Would it o r the punishment of crime, at sing temporary expedien s f and remove the cause s tending to it. Those once to ascertain ca uses were the physical necessities of the people, and the poli tical discontent of the count ry , • both of these by a mutual and • natural effect acting on and exasperating one another. It was impossible to deny that the people of Ireland regard with dis like, and with an evil feeling, the principles of the English Government in Ireland. They looked upon it as Anti-Catholic, and Anti-Irish, which, notwithstanding the Emancipation Act of 1829, excluded them frem the favour of the Government, or the confidence of the Crown, and they laboured under the double subjection of an alienated Government and a sectarian ascendancy. He would also refer to the social con dition of the Irish people ; it was one of unparalleled suffering and degradation, which emancipated them from all obligation. to the maintenance of laws which offered no facility for the pro tection of property, nor secured even the common necessaries of life. That such a condition of things was an incentive to crime required but little reason to perceive, and that fact was pal tieularly demonstrated by the class and description of per sons on whom the infliction of the law ultimately fell. It was not the opulent farmer, nor the extensive landowner—they did not find them amongst the occupiers of five acres— . they ., were whe composed of a class, destitute, ignorant and impove ri she d , h d and who owed no defeience to the institutions of the co l uotr had no hope of any possible amelioration of t heir crime, n. by Would they rescue this class from th e tem ptatio n them greater improving their condition, and by a ll ow ing andmaking it comforts, ac commodation, and increasing t heir uphold their interest to obey the laws, an d the constitution of the country? If he were aske d how t hi s was to be achieved, for the last would refer to those voluminous Committees whic h encumbered the records of the House—exam years had encum Ales of unavailing inquiry and abortive legislation. He would sfactory refer to unoccupied land, to the unsati jaw rela tions between landlord and tenant, to the poor-law , :a l' for which, when properly administered, was thde fur r es tb t :742 , and social and political tranquillity, and provide He s hould refer welfare of the labouring classes of Ireland . . his remarks, omit. to the non-resident gencry ; nor could he, in n arian outrage—the what he knew to be a feeble sourceaa the differences of absence of all accessible means of decid ing e _ or otherwise. the people, arising from the tenu re f press the Government to These were the measures he would it now proposed to coincidently with the mea sures adopt enact for Ireland. en t was really a most disgrace - Mr. WA RD thoug ht the p res ful state of the Ho use. A great constitutional question was l ti me s in the course of the evening he now before it. Severa l inclined, times have called the attention of the could, had he been s es ° ane of there not being fot Members Speaker to the cir ri to state his reasons why he, sa r an English- He begg present. the present measure. He believed that would not sup port man ' in Ireland, in o ne particular class of crime, th e s y mpat hi es o f t h e people were in favour of the criminal ai.d against the la w . o They c • uld not get juries to convict, or w i tnesses to give evi dence against the criminal. If, then, they had to deal with such a state of things as these, he thought that of all times the present was a time for the House to pause and consider to what cause this perverted mora'ity could be traced. Were they always to bring forward the worn out and vulgar measure called . coercion? Why not de a l w i t h I re l and upon enl i ghtene d princ iples. He did not wish to indulge in recriminations. He could . _not help _ e saying that th ose w h o now sa t upon the other side of the House wh en upon hi s s id e i n flamed as much as possi ble the minds of the public by their expressions of bigo try towards the Iri s h p eo pl e . H e hoped that Members on his side of th e House would be more just, and act in a better manner upon the present occasion. He was prepared to support the Glom- TIIE SUN, LONDON, LAMENT. WIGAN ELECTION. Mr. PROTHEROE moved that Group 14 have leave to sit and proceed with their business on Monday, the 2 Is t day of April, notwithstanding the resolution of the House on the 7th day of this instant April. Sir G. CLERIC opposed the motion. He did not think that after the resolution unanimously come to by the House the arrangement should be departed from to suit the convenience of any Committee. At the time of the resolution being moved there were several cases instanced as having peculiar claims for favourable consideration ; yes they, also, in deference to the feel ing of the House, were postponed with the other Bills. There were no special reasons why the rule should be set aside for the Bills in the present group, and to do so, would be to place others at a disadvantage ; for this reason, he would oppose the present motion. Mr. PROTHEROE, after a few words, in which he said the object was not to suit the convenience of the Committee, but because the promoters of the Bills were not at all likely to be affected by the proposed measure for facilitating the dissolution of companies, withdrew his motion. INCOME AND EXPENDITURE. Mr. CARD WELL brought up a report of the general income and expenditure of the country. ROMAN CATHOLICS IN THE ARMY. Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL preseated a petition from Wexford, praying that better arrangements might be car ried out than at present, for affording spiritual instruction to Roman Catholic soldiers in the colonies and on foreign servi e. ADDITIONAL MEMBERS FOR THE COUNTY OF CORK. Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice that he should postpone his motion for leave to introduce a Bill to enable the county of Cork to send two additional Members to re place those formerly returned for Sudbury, till Tuesday next. FERMOY UNION. Mr. J. O'CONNELL gave notice that, on Tuesday next, he should move for copies of the correspondence which had taken place between the guardians of this union and the Poor-law Commissioners with respect to an alleged neglect of the paupers in thatunion ; and for copies of the correspondence which had taken place be tween those guardians and the Rev. Daniel Dilworth, in January last, calling their attention to the condition of the paupers. OUTRAGES AND DISTRESS IN IRELAND. Mr. D. BROWNE wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government whether he had received any official information with respect to the fearful state of the poor in the south of Ireland from the want of food--that they had stopped and robbed several mills, cars, and boats laden with flour and meal? He wished to ask if such information had reached her Majesty's Government, and whether they had taken any steps to afford relief to those unfortunate persons who had been reduced to such a state, and in duced to commit violence by the want of the necessaries of life? He did not ask the question with any intention to embarrass the Government, but in order to allay the anxiety which prevailed in Ireland on the subject. Sir R. PEEL assured the Hon. Gentleman that both his Hon. Friend (Sir J. Graham) and himself had re ceived information, from time to time, from the proper authorities with respect to the outrages which had been recently perpetrated in Ireland, and with respect to the sufferings of the people from the want of food, caused by the failure of the potato crop. He must say that these accounts testified to the fortitude and forbearance with which the people had borne their sufferings.—(Hear.) Outrages had been committed, the perpetrators of which must be punished—(Hear)—and steps had accordingly been taken by the Executive to punish those concerned in them; and the Hon. Gentleman and the House might rest assured that every means would be taken to diminish and altogether suppress these outrages. With respect to the sufferings of the people, the Government had taken steps, by the introduction of maize and other food into Ireland, to alleviate them but he could assure him th a t th e exert i ons of the Govern ment to accomplish this would be greatly facilitated, and the people of Ireland consequently benefited, by the House passing the Corn Bill without any unnecessary delay. IRISH COERCION BILL.—ADJOURNED DE BATE. Upon the motion of Sir J. GRAHAM that the order of the day be now read, Mr. S. O'BRIEN said he did not rise for the purpose of moving the order of the day, but to make another appeal to her Majesty's Government on behalf of the people of that part of Ireland to which the Hon. Member, who had just sat down, had alluded. Upon a late occa sion, when he called the attention of the Government to this matter, he did not consider that the measure then proposed could be at all adequate to meet the distressed state of the people ; and aq attack was then made upon him for what he stated. However, the facts that had every day since been developed had proved that he was correct, and he did not know how the. Government could desire to have stronger proof of it unless the people were to die in thousands. But he had now two instances of recent date ; one, where an inquest was held on the body of a poor man found dead in a ditch in the county of Roscommon, and it was proved he had died of hunger ; and the next was a case of a similar nature which had occurred in Limerick. Accounts of these distresses were coming from every part of the country. (The Hon. Member then read a statement which appeared in the Limerick Tory paper, to the effect that the people in that district were starving; and that though voluntary benevolence was doing much, it was not doing more than it ought, and that Govern ment should interfere in a prompt and decided manner.) Now he (Mr. O'Brien) was perfectly willing to give the Government the praise which was due to them for their introduction of Indian meal.—(Hear, hear.) But he was perfectly unable to understand a letter which ap peared in the Cork paper. In that part of Ireland food was selling at famine prices, and Indian meal was intro duced to keep down the prices; a certain portion of it was distributed, but the b ene fi t was stopped by some arbitrary decree of the persons in authority; an to abneswpreerserie.cveediverodr ap plicationinte was made to the relief committee in Dublin, in tended was, that r t e he du s r u i p n p g ly th w e asin w th as sum mer months, until which tim e the landowners were ex pected to contribute to th e • Now, really be thought that the of the distressed. Indian meal was for the purpose of meeting the temporary distress. The Irish labourer did not d epend he received ; he gets from the landlord the wages which small portion of land, and the e ndlord or farmer a produce enables him to suppnrt his family through out Now for several months in the year the the year. could not obtain employment at all. It labour ing wasst•eil (l.nasowsens that at the present moment potatoes were selling at ad. and Bd. per stone, and any one acquainted with Ireland must be aware that such a price was almost amounting to a state of famine and starvation. That article of food was now double the ordinary price. It was clear that the Government should not wait till the people were actually starved to death. They were at that moment in such a state of destitution, that they would rather be shot than starved to death. They were not ignorant of the state of the people ; the papers were filled with statements of attacks on vessels. There was one attack made on a with boat proceeding from Limerick to Clare loaded flour. TI e whole cargo was seized, and the value amounted to over 200/. This was a fearful state cf things. There had already been outrages in Tipperary public Clonmel. It appeared from the accounts in the papers that a few days ago an outrage of that description had broken out in Tipperary, when the people seized on a large quantity of flour, which was on its way to parts for exportation. At Clonmel the famine riot consisted of between 4,000 and 5,000 people, where 250 cart loads of flour were seized upon by the populace. The mili tary, however, being brought, the property was retaken and escorted to the ports for exportation, which showed plainly that there was abundance of Food in the country for the relief of the people, if they were allowed to use it, which fact of course served to aggravate the distress under which the people laboured ; and it was most surprising that the people, under such circumstances, did not commit more outrages upon person and pro perty. And the Right Honourable Gentleman at at the head of the G overnment should recollect th the people of Ireland were only at the commencement of their famine ; they would yet have to undergo some four or five months more of distress, and he would once more solemnly appeal to the Government, and ask them whe ther they thought that their present measures of relief were adequate to meet the distress of the Irish people ? He might say that, with respect to the resident gentry in Ireland, the majority of the landlords were benevo lently contributing to the relief of the people; but those of them who were most able to do so subscribed nothing at all. But neither had this measure any provision to meet the exigencies of the present time. Neither was the poor law, as it existed in Ireland, a system calculated to benefit the people of that country. Surely it was the business of the G overnment to enable the Irish poor, who were willing to work, to have the means o f doing thought that they ought to be encouraged in this desire, but what had the Government done for them ? The Right !lon. Baronet had told the House that a sum of 400,0001. was available for the purpose of giving em ployment to the labourers 9f Ireland, Now he wished HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 17. The SPEAKER took the Chair at a quarter to Four o'clock. Sir W. HEATHCOii Ynotightnp the report of the Committee appointed to inquire into this election, which declared that the Hon. James Lindsay had been duly elected to serve in the present Parliament as Member fur the borough of Wigan. SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were read a second time Dublin Wide Streets. Lincoln Waterworks. Wakefield Waterworks. Gollon Inclosure. Lancashire Waterworks. Edinburgh and Glasgow Union Canal. Ardrossan Municipal Police and Improvement. Rothesay Municipal and Police. Forth and Clyde and Monkland Navigation Junction. Forth and Clyde Navigation and Bowling Bay Improve ment. Pow of Inchaffray Drainage. Airdrie and Coatbridge Waterworks. THIRD READINGS. The following Bills were read a third time, and passed— Rochester-bridge. Dundee New Gas. Boston Waterworks. 1 , 1 Witham Navigation. GROUP XIV. • ;- - SATURDAY MORN IN CI, APRIL 18, tb46. l lv 1 `~a II 1 31, sP °~►