The Sun. — London, England, 1852-12-07 00:00:00

ventured to prepare as an amendment—words which he thought would secure what the noble marquis professed to desire, and what he believed all their lordships desired— namely, a unanimous concurrence of opinion with re gard to the qu es ti on i nvo l ve d. H e placed those words in the noble marquis's hands. The noble marquis did not immediately return them, having stated that before adopting them he must consult his friends. Who the friends were with whom the noble marquis consulted he did not know ; but he knew that he was waiting for the noble marquis for a considerable period, and that on re turning to the house the noble marquis said, that though he could have wished to place on record the words which he had prepared himself, he was quite - willing to accept his,(the Earl of Derby's), in order thatlthere might be no division. Now, that was an exact statement of what occurred ; and so far was he from thinking the scene which took place discreditable to the House of Lords, that he thought it was just an example of the manner in which political opponents in that house were in the habit—and he hoped would always be in the habit—of dealing with each other, with frankness and with courtesy, and as far as possible, endeavouring to conciliate opponents instead of embittering differ ences, and bringing about unnecessary divisions. Under these circumstances he had framed the resolution which the noble marquis opposite had adopted—it simply but fully adopted the principle of unrestricted competi tion, in the same form that the house affirmed the prin ciple of slavery emancipation and the Roman Catholic Relief Bill; and it was unjust to call upon him, or other noble lords who had thought with him, to retract or stig matise the opinions which they had heretofore held as unwise or impolitic. (Hear, hear.) As well might the Whigs, after the Roman Catholic Relief Bill was carried, and Sir Robert Peel had returned to power, have gone down to Parliament and required the right hon. baronet and his friends to eat the words that they had uttered in 1834 and 1835. They were not called upon to declare by a formal resolution that the opinion which they had opposed had been " wise, just, and beneficial," and why should the Government of the present day be accused of wishing to pursue a reactionary policy because they re fused to stultify opinions which their friends and follow ers had steadfastly held throughout the entire controversy? Such a course of calling upon noble lords to pronounce against their;feelingrs and conscientious opinions in a re solution which should seek for nothing but a concurrence of opinion, in its spirit was most injudicious, besides being directly opposed to the usage of their lordship's house. All that their lordships could possibly desire was to pronounce in favour of the present commercial policy of the country ; and for his own part, he need scarcely say that he cordially concurred in the motion made by the noble marquis. He concurred in it without the slightest reservation, and he believed it could be con. curred in by the great majority of his friends and sup porters ; but at the same time he was quite ready to de clare that, if words could be found to make the future more clear and decided, he would unhesitatingly adopt them. (Hear, hear.) He was, h owever , conv i nce d th a t no such word s could be introduced into the resolution ; and he therefore hoped their lordships would, resting satisfied with the resolution as it stood, refuseto sanction an amendment which could only be looked upon as a medium for censuring opinions that some noble lords had conscientiously entertained in bygone times. (Cheers,) The Marquis of LANSDOWNE had but a very few words to address to their lordships before the resolution was put. He was ready to confess that he had been a party to the agreement which was made by the noble marquis near him, and he certainly understood that, for the sake of securing unanimity, the resolution proposed by the noble earl at the head of the Government was to be adopted, but, of course, that understanding could not possibly be binding upon noble lords who were not present when the agreement was made. (Hear, hear.) He did not find fault with his noble friend, the noble baron who had moved the amendment, for having done so, but under the circumstances which he had just men tioned, if the question came to a division, he should abstain from voting for it. Having said thus much 'with respect to the position in which the house found itself, he wished to say a few words with respect to the motion which had obtained the concurrence of the noble earl at the head of the Government. Without entering into the question as to whether it was proper or necessary that the house should adopt any reso lution, finally sanctioning the principle of free trade, he would at once confess that it having been determined that such a resolution ought to be passed, he should be the last man to dispute about the terms in which the resolution ought to be made. The position in which they found themselves was this—the noble earl at the head of the Government was willing to accept the deci sion of the country, as being against a return to a pro tective policy, and to adopt a resolutipn which should pledge the house to adhere in future strictly to the prin ciples of unrestricted competition. Now, that being so, and the Government having requested the house to forge fetters by which they were hereafter to be bound, all that the house had to do was to take care that the fetters should be made with such well-tempered metal, that noble lords opposite should find it difficult to escape from them. (A laugh.) They were all free upon this subject ; but so far as he himself was concerned, he could not help feeling that there was a wide difference between making an agreement with parties who had suddenly changed their opinions and with parties who had held the same opinion throughout the whole of the struggle. He was bound therefore to ad mit that the noble baron near him (Lord Beaumont) was perfectly justified in proposing his amendment, and in desiring that the house should express its opinion in terms so strong and decisive that it would be impossible for the house or the Government hereafter to withdraw from it. (Hear, hear.) The Earl of IARROWBY was opposed to any imi tation of the House of Commons in assigning reasons for the resolution they had adopted. The objection to such a course was that by assigning no other reason, tile house in effect declared they saw no other reason for opposing the recent policy than the inexpediency of fre quent change. It would be best to leave out that por tion of the resolution, and make it merely affirmatory. He should propose, therefore, that they should leave out all the preamble, and simply declare their adhesion to the recent commercial policy, and that they would do nothing to impede its operations or hinder its progress. He doubted if the noble lord, or any noble lord in the house, would assign the prosperity of the country to any one cause, be it free trade or not. Lord STRANGFORD, after listening to so much and understanding so little—(a laugh)—only rose to express his deep regret that the noble lord the member for Tiver ton (Lord Palmerston) was not a member of their lord ships' house. There would then be some chance of scorning to a conclusion. (Laughter.) The Duke of NEWCASTLE expressed his concur rence in the view taken by his noble friend (the Earl of Aberdeen), and in the opinion which he expressed as to the absolute inutility of the present or any other resolu tion. Under these circumstances, he rose to impress on the noble marquis (Clanricarde) that it would be very desirable for him to accept the proposal just made by the noble earl--(" hear" from the Earl of Derby) —and thus put an end to the discussion, by the omission in the motion of the commencing words, of which so many noble lords disapproved. (Hear, hear.) He thought that they would be acting more wisely and prudently as regards their own credit and the object they all pro fessed to have at heart, if they confined themselves to the practical part of the resolution, omitting all the preamble. If he were to understand from the cheer of the noble earl opposite that this arrange ment met with his approval—(the Earl of Derby here said he had no objection to it)—and if the noble marquis (Clanricarde) would also assent to it, he should not think it right to trespass long on the attention of the hous Some observations had, however fallen from the nob earl at the head of the Government, with regard to th course and conduct of the late Sir R. Peel and his friends, with respect to which he felt bonnd to offer a few re marks. He would not discuss with the noble earl what the noble earl might consider the peculiar mission of his noble friend (the Earl of Aberdeen) and the followers of Sir R. Peel in that house; whether it was their bounden duty, for some reasons which the noble earl did not as sign, to act as mediators between noble lords on the Opposition side and noble lords on the Ministerial side-- to come forward as pacificators, who should turn the balance, lie presumed, in favour of the Government. He knew not what might, be the opinion of the noble earl, but, with respect to the question immediately before the house, this he could say, that they (the fol lowers of the lath Sir Robert Peel) considered that a legacy had devolved on them from that great and illustrious man—namely the protection of the t commercial policy which he founded in this country, and to the success of which they were all duly testifying. (Hear, hear.) From that duty lie could assure the noble earl they were not likely to be diverted by any observa tions he might make. The noble earl said he could par don some degree of feeling on the part of his noble friend (the Earl of Aberdeen), because it was natural that he Should he anxious to express an opinion favourable to the f policy of Sir R. Peel ; but his noble riend exl !aid that though it would have been his individua p l ress wishy „mu' de clare that policy " w i se , j us t, an d b ene fi c i a l , " ye t it ° not be desirable to endeavour to do that which the noble earl hinted at in his somewhat impassioned pero ration, imtheir opinio ns poseon noble lords opposite a recantation of said heBll.l, n and for that very reason his noble friend noble earl at thet wish to propose any such words. The abst aine r of the Government had, however, studiously eon f!orn answering the 'question why, when his own cepted certain resolnet? o es in the other house had ae on js e and voted for them, he now objected to calling same resolutions? (Re h ar , Rouse he of Lords to adopt the this course the noble earl left the house to draw one either that he was willin g eas e t n .t e of two inferences— either in the House ceinmons, decided slur on his he considered ob ley refusin to call on their lordships to adopt words which ; or else, which jectionable and repulsive to their feelings would be a still more painful cone • hial°n ' and that The rae (the Duke of Newcastle). would . be sorry toarriv n e e at a t t h he t the noble earl was not sincere in his declaration 0 le spect to the practical acceptance of free tree,. The n b earl had obserrred what would have been th ought, ii on Sir R. Peel's accession to office in 1834 and 183 5, a tion had e been made to declare the Reform Bill a wis just, and beneficial" measure ? B ut the case was in no e ' re spect parallel with the present. If Sir R. Peel, from the passing of the Reform Bill up to his accession to office in 1834 and 1835, had constantly brought forward in his place motions for the repeal of the Reform Act—if he had been ! making speeches session by session against it—if he . had . been receiving deputations in his house and telling his friends that at the propertime the Reform Act would be re pealed, and if they only waited he would give the word "UP, Guards, and at 'em;" if he had attended a great meet ing and said, "he would cry halt in the downward course of legislation which was being pursued ;" if that had been Sir R. Peers career then would the members •f either house of Parliament have been justified in im- posing a test on him when he took office in 1834-35. (Hear, hear.) But in the first reformed Parliament Sir R. Peel took the earliest opportunity of declaring that he accepted the Reform Act as the irrevocable settle ment of a great constitutional question. (Hear, hear.) Therefore there was no parallel between the position of Sir Robert Peel in 1834-35 and the present position of the noble earl at the head of the Government. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl had ventured on somewhat deli cate and dangerous ground when he pointed out to the mover of the amendment and to other noble lords the various periods when they abandoned the prin ciples of protection and turned Free-traders ; and, though the noble earl ended by saying, " God forbid that I should taunt anybody for a change of opinion !" yet, by another allusion to the course taken by Sir R. Peel and his colleagues in 1846, he appeared de sirous of expressing an opinion that there had been some dereliction of duty, and some infraction of political principle in the course then pursued. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl said that be certainly objected, and still did, to the manner in which, and the men by whom, the mea sure of 1846 was carried. He (the Duke of Newcastle) did not deny, any more than Sir R. Peel or any of his Government denied, a change of opinion, but the com plaint against the noble earl was that he had not changed his opinion. If the noble earl had come forward and said that his opinion had changed at the 11th or 12th, or, it might be said the 13th, hour, then the present re solution would be unnecessary, He should then feel it no more necessary to bind the Government than he should to bind their lordships' house, which had never swerved in any vote from the course of free trade during the last 10 years. [Here the Earl of Derby made some observation.] He repeated the words " during the last ten years ;" for from 1842 to the present year there was no instance in which that house had attempted to reverse the course of free trade. In 1842' the whole of the tariff was carried in their lordships' house either with no division or by considerable majorities. The repeal of the corn laws in 1846 was carried, notwithstanding the strong opposition and eloquent speech of the noble earl opposite, uner the guidance of that great and illustrious man, whose warning voice would not again be heard in difficulty and danger. (Hear, hear.) In the same year the alteration of the sugar duties was carried, the noble earl opposite declining to divide the house ; and two years later, in spite of the n o bl e ear l' s o pp os iti on , th e re p ea l of the navigation laws was carried by a strong majority: From that time to the present, notwithstanding all the speeches made in that house, and the violent attacks o n the course pursu e d—th oug h they were told that ruin had overtaken the country, and that their course was most disastrous notwithstanding all this, that house had never swerved from the free-trade course. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, any resolution, as far as that house was con cerned, merely expressing adherence to principles from which the house had never swerved, was unnecessary, and the only reason for passing the resolution, though a milk-and-water one, would be that it might be binding on the Government and the noble earl, whose course had altered, but whose opinion he had himself stated to re main unchanged. If it were the desire of the house to adopt the proposal of the noble earl on the cross benches (the Earl of Harrowby), he should be unwilling to pro tract the discussion, being satisfied that whatever resolu tion might be passed by the house, the great cause of free trade and enlightened commercial policy was per fectly safe, because its principles were based on the im mutable grounds of justice. (Hear, hear.) Lord BEAUMONT, in reference to what had fallen from Lord Strangford, said they did not want the noble lord, the member for Tiverton, in that house, because his genius was present there, for the noble lord on the cross benches had proposed an amendment which ap peared to be approved of by all parties. (Laughter.) He expressed his willingness to withdraw his own amend- ment. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE consented to the alteration of the resolution as proposed by the Earl of Harrowby. The Earl of DERBY, in expressing his concurrence in this arrangement, observed that it was a curious coincidence that in both houses the different narties had been brought more in harmony by a resolution inter posed. (Laughter.) The resolution, as altered by the Earl of Harrowby, was then agreed to, in the following terms : " That this house adheres to the commercial system recently established, and would view with regret any renewed attempt to disturb its operation, or impede its future course." The Marquis of CLANRICARDE desired that it should be entered on the journals that the resolution was passed nem. dis. (Hear, and laughter.) GREECE. Lord STANLEY of Alderley, pursuant to notice, in quired of the Government whether there was any ob jection to lay before Parliament a copy of the protocol signed by England and the four great European powers respecting the canton of Neufchatel ; and also of the convention betsfeen England, Russia, France, Bavaria, and Greece, for the settlement of the succession of the throne of Greece ; and to ask a question respecting a report that there had been some recent changes in the political relations of the territory of Montenegro ? The Earl of MALMESBURY— My lords, with respect to the first question put to me by the noble baron, I can only make to hi m th e same rep l y t h at I did last session. Negotiations have not been pro ceeded with subsequently to that period, and the protocols to which he alludes have not been prepared to be laid upon the table of your lordships' house ; but they give her Majesty's Ministers the power of choosing their own time to begin these nego tiations. The present does not appear to her Ma jesty's Government to be a proper time for entering into these negotiations, and the other parties who have signed the protocols are of the same opinion as her Ma jesty's Government upon that point. With respect to the treaty relating to the Greek possession which has just been signed between the four powers, it will be in your lordships' recollection that when the independence of Greece was accomplished, it was considered an object of great importance that the dynasty should be secured to that people, and that the succession of that dynasty in a regular line should be guaranteed by the contracting powers of Russia, France, and England. After the dy nasty had been secured, and Greek independence made safe, the Greeks themselves framed a constitution, and the articles in that constitution declared that no future King of Greece should be of any religion but the Greek faith. It is known to your lordships that the present King of Greece was brought up from his childhood in the Roman Catholic religion, the consequence of which is, that the treaty has never been enforced. It ap peared desirable that the same guarantee should ex tend so far as the constitutional wishes of the Greek people were embodied in their constitution, and that the three powers should guarantee to the Greek people that the future King of Greece should be of their own faith, as well as the dynasty which had been guaranteed to the Greek nation in 1832. It became necessary, therefore, to accomplish this end, and to revise the treaty of 1832, for the purpose of rendering it more in accordance with the 40th article of the constitution. Her Majesty's Government thereupon invited the Courts of Russia and France to join them in the endeavour to accomplish that object, and the three courts together have revised the treaty and signed the convention accordingly. But I believe I am in order when I say that it is not the cus tom to lay such treaties upon the table until the act of ratification has taken place. The last of the questions of which the noble baron has (riven me notice is, wheth er any change h as b een effected in the state of the political relations of that wild country situated on the borders of Albania, and called Montenegro. I believe that since her Majesty's present Govern ment have come into office there has been no change whatever in the state of those relations. The chief of that country, bears a double title. He is the head of the Greek Church in his own country, and he is also the temporal sovereign of that country. But, as head of the Greek Church in his own country, he is under the jurisdiction of the Emperor of Russia, who, your lord ships know, is looked upon as the head of the whole Greek Church. The chief of Montenegro has, the re f ore , been, as his ancestors have been before him, to the Court of St. Petersburgh, to receive the sanction of the Em peror to his episcopal jurisdiction and titles at Monte negro. - With respect to the independence of that coun try, whatever may be the opinion of different persons upon that question, it seems to he a question rather for intiquaries than for Cabinets to settle. But the pine ical fact is, that it has been an independent country something like 250 years—and although various at tempts have been made by the Porte upon 'its in dependence, they have only lost large armies in the efibrt to subjugate it, and he believed that, in its present practical position, it remained, as far as possible, the same now that it was 200 years ago. THE FRENCH EMPIRE. The NOBLE EARL then continued as follows—Having hue answered the question of the noble baron, it now becomes my duty to announce to your lordships an event which you must have all long since expected ; but which is not diminished in importance by the circumstance that it has been so long expected and foreseen. I allude to a notification which has been made to her Majesty's Government by the Secretary of State for Foreign Af fairs at Paris, announcing that the French people have determined to change the constitution of their govern ment from a republic to an empire, and to attach to the Prince President of the Republic the imperial dignity of EmperOr. That notification was made to me on Thurs day last, and having been communicated by me to her Majesty's Government, her Majesty's servants have thought it right, without further delay or hesitation, to advise her Majesty cordially to accept and recognise the new constitution selected by the French people for their own government. My lords, it has been, as yourlordships know, our usual policy for the last twenty-two years— indeed ever since the revolution of 1830 in Paris— to acknowledge the constitutional doctrine that a people have a right to chose their own sovereign without the interference of any foreign power ; and the sovereign having been freely chosen by them, that that sovereign or ruler, or by whatever name he may be called, being de facto ruler of his country, should be recognised by the sovereign of this. If there may have been formerly any doubt existing as to what was the distinct will of a nation in the respect to the choice of their sovereign—if we have doubted for one moment the distinct intention of a people at any former time—upon this occasion, my lords, it is perfectly impossible to mistake their un doubted determination—three times in the most solemn way---three times expressed for the same person, in when a. repulai G most public manner, perhaps, of which history can e, the afford out a.n Phili example. At the revolution of 1848, Public succeeded to the monarchy of Louis ing present Emperor of France was resid usual canvass in tbis entry, He w en t over w i t h none of the importance, which takes o place at e l ec ti ons o f m i nor may Banfwlteuhal magnit u d e e l sew h ere ; he a„ en went over, I r anee that o . thing but his n a m e — a a magic which has an efftoect up t l on s name so great in F t e h v o i d p e o n o t p l y l e i t n h fu a t s eedx pi w i e r t make Europ e un d erstand. e nce only has been able _~.~, THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING DECEMBER, 7, 1852, ~ '. We can always comprehend how the fate of Napoleon, so chequered as it was,. and such a pi c t ure o f i mmense glory and immense misfortune as it presented, was exactly calculated to raise all the sympathies and in terests of human nature ; and we cannot, therefore, wonder that it made a lasting impression upon the people over, whom he ruled so long and so greatly. But, my lords, it is scarcely possible for any person in any European state out of France to suppose that the prestige of that name remains so long, so steadily, and so strongly, that thirty-seven years after his abdication, his nephew should have appeared in three different characters before the French people within the course of four years—first offering himself without any of the necessaries of courts or governments to assist him— first, as simple President of the French Republic with a Chamber ; secondly, as absolute President of the French Republic without any constitutional form of government ; and thirdly, as Emperor of the same people :—first, elected by six millions —next elected by seven millions— and lastly, elected by nearly eight millions, a number that would form almost the entire male adult population of France. The present is not the time to speculate upon the reasons for this extraordinary exhibition of senti ment and Conviction on the part of the French people. But I think that if we have long lost sight of the power of that name in France, it has been because we have not sufficiently observed that up to this moment, in the chances and changes which have taken place in the government of that country, only one part of her population was consulted. It was in Paris alone that those changes have taken place. It was in Paris alone that the fates of Louis Philippe and Charles X. were determined. It was by the voice of the Pari sians alone that the republic was established in the year 1848, and although both forms of government successively met with the silent approbation of the country, yet on no one occasion until the President of the Republic was elected in 1848, were the whole mass of the French people consulted with regard to what form of govern ment they preferred, or what manner of man they sought. In the mass of the French people one recollection—one only, and one strong partiality prevails ; and I think it is not difficult to understand why this should be. In 1815, at the time of the Restoration, the French army — an enormous French army—was disbanded. It was poured back again upon the hearths of the population. The prisoners of war returned from all parts of the world in thousands and tens of thousands, and I believe I am not exaggerating the number when I say that, perhaps 400,000,. or from that to half a million of men, with one fixed idea in their minds, and with one—l may call it-- worship fixed in their hearts, then returned to their homes. For 20 or 30 years afterwards they talked and they thought but of one man ; and they thought and they spoke of him as the great idol of their imagina tion ; and. though they need hardly have exaggerated his military events and his military glory, they still added to -those all that the warmest enthusiasm could give. Upon the rising generation all this could not be lost ; and it appears to me that the seeds which these men have • sown in the provinces of France are now to be seen, in the fruit of which we have witnessed the ripening on this occasion. Seeing then this immense demonstration of feeling on the part of the French people, it was impossible for her Majesty's Government, even if it had not been our usual policy to sanction such demonstrations, not to have advised her Majesty cordially to accept and recognise the empire. There might have been one, and one only, reason that might have tempted us to hesitate before we advised her Majesty so to proceed ; but I rejoice to say that the good sense of the present Emperor, foreseeing the difficulty, met it in advance, and removed from her Majesty's Government those difficulties that might otherwise have intervened. I allude to a somewhat ambiguous expression which was found in the report of the Senatus Consultum, which re ferred t o the late President of the Republic, and which was connected with the title he meant to take —that o f Napoleon 111. That expression might have induced her Majesty's Government, and would naturally have induced any one, to suppose that the interpretation to be given to it would have been that of common par lancelwhen it designates sovereigns —that it gave the bearer of the title an hereditary retrospective right to the throne, and that he was descended in a straight and legitim ate line, and by right had new ascended the throne of France. My lords, the advisers of the present Empe ror of the French, forseeing this difficulty, frankly took the initiative, in assuring her Majesty's Government that it related simply to the historical incident that in France. and according to French law, two sovereigns of the name of Bonaparte only had preceded the present Emperor. Neither of them, as your lordships know, were recognised by their country, and the French know that as well as your lordships—and they therefore adopted the title with no intention of claiming any hereditary right from the first Emperor. They have distinctly intimated that, both to her Majesty's Government, and since in a speech by the Emperor himself ; he has declared, and his Go vernment have also declared it to ours, that he is sove reign only by the voice of the people, not by hereditary right to the throne—that he distinctly recognises all the Governments that have existed since 1814 in France— that he recognises the acts of those Governments, and acknowledges the solidarity of those Governments in suc ceeding others. With this satisfactory and frank expla nation, it was only left to her Majesty's Government, as I said before, cordially and with pleasure to acknowledge the decided will of the French nation ; and to send to her Majesty's ambassador at Paris new credentials for the new court. In the notification which the Emperor hao made to her Majesty's Government, he says that the same policy which influenced the President will influence the Emperor. And with respect to that policy, as regards England, it is impossible to speak too highly of the cordial and frank manner in which every question has been entertained by the Government of Franc le—at least since I have had the honour of holding the se: Os of office.. (Hear, hear.) . I have no doubt my noble ilriend opposite will say the same thing at the time he filled my place. I have found nothing but fairness and fair play in all these transactions—nothing but as surances of good-will and wishes to maintain an unbroken friendship with this country. I believe the Emperor himself, and the great mass of the people, deeply feel the necessity, for the interests of both countries, that we should be on a footing of profound peace. And, on the other band, they see the great folly and crime which it would ce on either side to provoke a war. They must know th at a war, as far as it would lead to the subjuga tion of either country by the other, is an absurdity—that neither 'country, so great, powerful, and independent, could in any manner subjugate the other ; and, there fore, war must be as useless as cruel, and as inglorious as absurd. (Hear, hear.) Viscount CANNING, after making some observations which were not heard in the gallery, said he would take the liberty of asking the noble earl to complete his state ment as regarded the form and shape in which the as surances which he bad referred to had been placed in his hands, and he also wished to know whether the noble earl would, either now, or at any future, but not very dis tant, tune, lay them before Parliament and the country ? (Hear, hear.) The Earl of MALMESBURY did not understand his noble friend on two points. He appeared first to dis approve of something which he (the Earl of Malmesbury) had st tted— Vise ount CANNING said it was a feeling which he had oss3r and over again repeated and constantly main tained yin that and the other house of Parliament, and it was sina - ply this, that in the English Parliament, when, ever foreign matters were brought under discussion, it was advisable—and, above all, in the case of a Minister of the Grown—to abstain from anything approaching to comment on the conduct of a neighbouring country, whether it were the people or the ruling authority. Then, as to the other point, communications between friendly states assumed different forms ; sometimes they were iii the form of a dispatch from the ambassador, and sometimes in the form of a note from the minister of the com?.try. He wished to know in which of these forms, r, b ifoe e it:T e has n iiehtinyeo i t - e u:Ewhled e eae i nrr v beloi e leb d adoltbifeh ? si or, if in either form, what form, these assurances had n :t U nu l i r gin ß afvh r r Y eii e es f nm e p f r de e a d e r f el r yl i e j e e t I y t no agreedctohmatm case, an s st ; disagreeable r or lo Ar a e d fs e L t aesM manbxa i l p Ed re o Sw s 1 13 s o i g e tl s ie v m ery . o H ft e en w t a o ; their lordships, and lie might not have made himself clearly understood. He rose with the most earnest wish to say for France and the French all that France and the French would say for themselves. He did not, therefore, understand why his noble friend found fault with his comments. The diplomatic nature of the corn munica4.ions which had been made were perfectly official, and therefore satisfactory to the Government. They could not be more satisfactory to him than when made by the French ambassador verbally, and in words re peated by the Emperor himself, in his speech to his Chambers. He thought that was satisfactory enough. The Marquis of BREADALBANE hoped the changes which had taken place in France would be attended with the best results. BANK NOTES BILL. On the :motion of the Earl of DERBY, this bill was read a second time. Their lordships then adjourned at a quarter past nine •o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS-(YESTERDAY.) ;Continued from our Third Edition of last evening.) PETITIONS. Mr. SCOTT presented a petition from Stirling, against nuuneries. Sir F. THESIGER presented a petition from a Sussex newspaper, in favour of the retention of the taxes on newspaper. Mr. EWART presented several petitions for the re peal of the taxes on knowledge. Mr. Sergeant SHEE presented a petition against cer tain measures introduced by the Irish Attorney-General respecting tenant right. Several petitions were presented against the paper and newspaper stamp duties. INCOME TAX. Mr. HUME wished to be definitely informed whe. ther Government intended the income tax to be a per manent or temporary measure. Ho differed with the opinion of the last speaker, because he could see no reason for exempting incomes deriv able through the funds from payment of the tax. Such incomes ought to be assessed in the same proportion as other property, and although Mr. Pitt and others might have entertained a different opinion, the time had gone by when the country would tolerate the injustice of the exemption longer. But they ought some once, before they proce e d e d f urt h er, to come to some decision upon the question of increasing the house tax. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was still of opinion that the course which he had chalked out for the house to take was the correct one—and that it was to go into committee both on the house duty and the income tax, while with regard to the extension of the income tax to funded property in Ireland, he ap prehended there would be no difficulty in that as far as the law was concerned. Incomes derivable from the funds paid the tax in England, and Ireland was only ex empted through a clause which had been introduced into the income tax. Government not only believed that they were right in law!but that their recommendations were founded in justice. He should, therefore, be pre pared to lay on the table, either to-night or to-morrow, resolutions based upon the bold financial scheme sha dowed forth on Friday. Of course, he could not expect the house to dispose of all those resolutions at this time of year ; but Government was quite ready to stand or fall upon any single one of them. Their policy must be taken as a whole, and on Friday next they should call upon the house to decide for or against it in the committee which would be taken on the tea duties and the house tax. (Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL said he could conceive no graver matter than that which had just been brought before the house ; and when the proper time arrived, he should be prepared fully to discuss it, well knowing the danger of making any alteration in the principles of taxation which had been established by several successive Parliaments. It would be, however, for the Go vernment to select which subject they would wish the house to pronounce upon first, but he thought before they proceeded to make any reductions in the taxes the house ought to be called upon to vote the ways and means by which the deficiency should be made up. Mr. GOULBURN took exception to the argument taken up by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and con tended that it would be a violation of the contract which had been entered into with the public creditor to require funded property in Ireland to pay income tax. With respect to the tea duties, there would be no diffi culty in dealing with that question in a com mittee of the whole house, but with regard to the other question of increasing the house tax, that could only be done in a committee of ways and means. Sir C. WOOD said, the house could proceed to re duce the tea duties by way of bill, but the other matter of the house tax could only be dealt with in Committee of Ways and Means. He thought, under these cir cumstances, the Budget ought to be treated as a whole on Friday next, though they might single out one resolution upon which to take the discussion. Mr. WALPOLE said the Government could not bring the whole of the resolutions before the house on Frida,y, but they proposed to take the opinion of the house on the reduction of the tea duties and the exten sion of the house tax, which involved the whole financial policy of the Government. Sir 3. V. SHELLEY did not think there was any necessity for pressing the house-tax to an immediate decision, as before any reduction of taxation could take place the re-imposition of the income tax must be decided on. Lord JOHN MANNERS said, the deficit in the tea duties would be about made up by the increase in the house-tax, and he was at a loss to understand what objection there could be to taking both questions to gether. (Hear, bear.) Doubling the house-tax would only produce about half a million next year, while the reduction in the tea-duties would cause a loss to the revenue of 400,000/. (Hear, hear.) Mr. S. HERBERT said what he and his friend ob jected to was, they could not consent to reduce taxes until they had decided upon the question of the income tax, which was at present one of the main soursces of the revenue. (Hear, hear.) It was folly for the house to pledge itself to reduce taxes until they had decided upon other ways and means, which must expire in due course, unless some resolution was taken by the house. Mr. E. DENISON took the same view of the matter as the last speaker. Sir H. WILLOUGHBY also thought the imposition of the house tax, if it were necessary, should form the end, and not the commencement, of their financial legis Mr. MACGREGOR said the income tax must be settled in the first instance, or the finances of the coun try would be thrown into a state of confusion and un certainty. The report was then received. EXCHEQUER BILLS. Mr. WILLIAMS inquired what was to be the rate of exchequer bills. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the rate was not yet fixed, but he would announce it as soon as it was necessary. Since he had been in office it had only been fixed once, and that was in the month of May last, when he had reduced it, and thus saved the country 37,000/. per annum. SUPPLY. The order of the day was then read for the house resolv ing itself into committee of supply. On the question that the Speaker do leave the chair, Mr. HUME said h e understood the proposition to be sub mitted to the committee included a sum of 435,000/. • viz., 113,0001. for the navy su ppl emen t ary estimate 92,0001. for the ordnance suppl emen t ar y es ti ma t e , 150,0001. for the National Gallery, and 80,0001. for the expenses attending the funeral of the Duke of Wellington. He complained that the recommendations of the committees on the naval and ordnance services had not been properly carried out, and said that the manner in which our ships were built, and afterwards cut down, or otherwise altered, was most dis graceful. The time had come when some alteration was absolutely necessary. Our army and navy cost together be tween 12,000,0001. and 13,000,0001. A large portion of that expenditure was altogether unnecessary, and when no effi cient efforts were made to diminish the expenditure in these departments, it was the duty of the house to pause before it consented to add anything to the taxation of the country. (Hear,hear.) Before making any advances, the house ought to be in possession of the plans of the Government. Within the last few years upwards of 2,000,000 had been laid out in fortifications, and other constructions which were perfectly useless. The house ought to profit by experience, and not vote away money in this manner. The committee on naval affairs had decided that 100 ad mirals were quite sufficient; but 150 were kept up, and fresh ones promoted almost every day for no useful purpose whatever. (Hear, hear.) He believed the navy was never in a more efficie n t state than after the right hon. baronet near him (Sir J. Graham) had reduced the expenditure nearly 1,000,0001. in one year. (Hear, hear.) Why were our ships scattered all over th e ocean if there was any truth in the statement that we wore in imminent danger at home ? He believed that Napoleon 111. would find the strength of his Government to consist i n peace, an d t h at the stability. of the institutions of that country would be best main tained by the encouragement of free trade. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the grant for the National Gallery, no in formation whatever had been laid before the house ; and until some information was afforded by the right honour able gentleman he should object to any grant whatever. The removal of the pictures to Kensington-gardens, where they could be of very little use, was under the management of a particular clique, and he thought the circumstances altogether very suspicious. He would put it to the house whether such a grant was called for at the time when they were asked to double the house tax. (Cheers.) Then with regard to the expenses of the funeral, before any vote was taken a full statement of all the expenses incurred ought to be submitted to the house. (Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there was no vote before the house for building a National Gal lery. The only vote to be brought forward was for the purchase of land under rather peculiar circumstances, a portion of which might certainly be subsequently devoted to the erection of a National Gallery. But that had no thing to do with the question now before the house. When that vote come on he should take the liberty of laying be fore the committee the reasons which had induced •the Go vernment to ask the house to vote a sum equal to that which was to be contributed by the commissioners of the Great Exhibition for Purposes of great importance. There was no s p ec ifi c vote for the National Gallery, and the only obj ec t o f th e vote was the purchase national interest and of the land to which he had alluded. With regard to the funeral of the great man now at rest, he begged to remind the house of the taunt thrown out that the expenditure would probably be a quarter of a mil lion. It was very desirable to vote the necessary supply at once, by which means the accounts could be brought to a close and no inconsiderable amount saved. (Hear, hear.) A detailed statement would be laid on the table showing how every shilling had been expended. He certainly had stated that he should be prepared, on a fitting occasion, to bring forward the views of the Government on administra tive reform ; but, before doing so, it would be necessary to dispose of these financial measures. It was impossible to embark in questions of such magnitude and importance before disposing of the financial measures which he had submitted to the house. (Hear, hear.) If the house should be opinion that it was necessary to place the coun t/7 in an efficient state of defence, he trusted his hon. friend the Secretary of the Admiralty would at once be allowed to proceed with his statement. The house then resolved itself into committee—Mr. W. PATTEN in the chair. Mr. A. STAFFORD said he trusted, after the remarks of his right hon, friend, he should not be expected to in cumber the question now before the committee with any reference to those reforms, however earnestly they might be desired, and however essential they might be to the services of the country, because he considered no time more inoppor tune for such discussion than the proposition for a supple mentary vote, such as that which he was now about to propose. In bringing forward this estimate, it was not his wish to cast any imputation on the Board of Admiralty, or the gentlemen who had preceded the present Government in that office. When they adopted the estimates of the late Government, they did so in no party or unworthy spirit, believing them to be amply sufficient, and, unless circumstances had considerably changed, they would not have changed that opinion. In bringing these estimates before the house, he admitted the right of the house, gene rally speaking, to an explanation as to the objects to which it was intended to apply them. On the other hand, if he entered into details, which might be desirable on an esti mate at the commencement of the financial year, he might be led into a discussion extremely inconvenient, and must therefore decline doing so. He would begin with the ex pression of his most earnest desire, in which honourable gentlemen opposit e wou ld all share, for the maintenance of perfect p eace in Europe an d th roug h ou t th e wor ld (Hear, h ear .) He brought f orwar d th ese es ti ma t es so completely independent of any one particular power o r p art i cular nation, th a t h e wou ld no t b e l e d into the na va l estimates o f an y one country, or refer to any country that might be supposed to be affected by them. (Hear, hear.) He brought them forward in the spirit and in the earnest hope of universal peace. The two supplementary estimates which he had now to submit to the committee were, first, 113,000/., for 5,000 additional seamen and 1,500 marines ; and secondly, 100,0001. for the necessary expenses of steam machinery for naval purposes. On looking back to the cost of our steam machinery, it was impossible to deny that enormous grants had been made under that head. Let the committee remember the cir cumstances under which these sums were granted from year to year. In the first place, the Government were called upon to establish a paddle-wheel fleet, and now they were obliged to provide a screw fleet. It would be found, how ever, by any honourable member who took the trouble to inquire into the matter, that not only in the Govern ment establishments, but in every private dockyard, enormous expenses had been incurred, which could not possibly be avoided, because it was only by such an expenditure that the efficiency of the different kinds of steam vessels could be ascertained. He was sure that it would not be contended that, when the paddle wheel fleet had been built, and it was discovered that a screw fleet would answer better, we ought to have gone to no further expense. He believed that the expense which had been incurrred was not to bo attributed to wilful ex travagance, as had been asserted, or to the love of change on the part of the Admiralty, but to the new inventions which were perpetually forced upon their notice, and which imposed upon the Admiralty the necessity of making ez, periments. It had been his good fortune during the re cess, to enjoy a trip to the Mediterranean, where he saw the evolutions of the Mediterranean fleet, under the com mand of Admiral Dundas; and it was impossible for any one not to perceive, when sailing vessels were compared with screw steamers, that it was absolutely necessary, un less some new mechanical power were discovered, that screw steamers should be the future of our navy as well as of our mercantile marine. The paddle-wheel was not only exposed to the fire of the enemy, but took up so much space as to interfere with the guns which might be brought to bear upon an adversary's vessel, and consequently, hence forth, we must recognise the combined power of the screw and sail as the future of our navy. In order that the com mittee might have some notion of the comparative expense of screw steamers and sailing vessels, a paper had been drawn up, which he would read to the house. The comparison was drawn between a ninety-gun sailing vessel and a ninety-gun screw steamer of 500- horse power, The first cost of the sailing vessel was 108,0031., while the cost of the screw was 151,0001., and the annual expense of the sailing vessel was 44,350/. while the screw steamer cost annually 51,6781. In the annual expense alone, therefore, without saying anything of first cost, the screw steamer exceeded the sailing vessel by 20 per cent. The hon. gentleman opposite said we must have retrenchment in our dockyards. He thought it would be found that the present Government would not be remiss in that particular in future, and that as regarded the past, they had not been insensible to the necessity for making proper reductions ; but, as he had said before, this was not the time to discuss these matters. All that he wished the house to be aware of was, that they must look forward to an expensive future, unless they wished the British navy to be inferior to those of other countries. He now came to the question of the number of men. The Government proposed to ask for 5,000 additional seamen, and 1,500 marines for four calendar months ; but in order to make the sum which would be required as small as possible, the Government would assume that for the first two months only half the num ber of seamen and marines would be raised. At the same time, he was happy to stat e th a t th e rumours w hi ch were circulated of the difficulty of getting men to join her Majesty's ships were highly exaggerated, though the house must not disguise from itself that at present the Bri tish sailor was the most conspicuous article in the market. The Government had not only to meet the competition of the mercantile marine and the attractions of the gold re gions, but,of every other navy in the world, and therefore it was absolutely incumbent upon us to do everything that would promote his comfort, and tempt him to remain in the naval service. His right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, on Friday last, that the seaman was now often turned adrift just when his services became most useful ; and in alluding to a committee which had been engaged in considering this subject, and which had collected much valuable information, he expressed a hope that this committee would suggest certain reforms. He . (Mr. Stafford), however, wished to say that no t one o f th ese 5,003 additional men would be asked to join the ships of her Majesty under any other restriction or condition than those which were now in force. The honourable and gallant admiral opposite (Sir G. Pechell) knew that nothing was more distasteful to the seamen of the royal navy than to be transferred from one ship to another. Besides, it was neces sary to consult not only the comforts of sailors, but their feelings and fancies. They were a most curious body of men, and if it once got noised abroad at Portsmouth or Plymouth that any change in the present regulations was contemplated, he believed that the Government would not get 100 men in six months to join the service. With re gard to the fleet which the Admiralty proposed to raise, and which he trusted the house would enable it to raise without delay, they intended that it should be stationed in the Channel, cruising, of course, occasionally up and down for exercise. At the Nore they proposed to place three frigates and five steamers ; at Plymouth, four sail-of-the line and five steamers • and at Portsmouth, five sail-of-the line, two frigates, and six large steamers. Considering the exposed nature of the coast, and not forgetting Osborne and the hopes and loyal sympathies which often centred there, he thought this would not be looked upon as too large a force for the defence of our own shores. At present the Admiralty had not exceeded the number of men voted, which was about half a dozen above those actually in the naval service. So far, therefore, the Government had kept itself strictly within the limits prescribed, but they felt that the time had come when the Channel defences must be placed in an efficient condition, and in doing this the Government did it with,a fervent prayer for peace, the sin cerity of which was evidenced by the conduct of England ever since the last shot was fired at Waterloo. (Hear, hear.) The Government did not desire to interfere with the internal policy of any country, but they wished that the poorest of the Queen's subjects in the most distant quarters of the globe should feel that the British flag was his security and his safety. They felt that we ought to have a fleet to protect those merchant vessels, which, what ever might be said of their superior sailing qualities and the derision with which they looked down upon men-of war, were constantly applying to the Admiralty for security to the British flag. Lastly, he asked th e h ouse for this additional f orce in order to prevent any hostile foot from treading on these shores, or, if such an event should happen, to insure that the contest should be short and decisive. The hon. gentleman concluded by moving an addition of 5,000 seamen and 1,500 marines to the naval forces of her Majesty. Mr. HUME had always declared his objections to the building of more ships than we could employ; and now it was discovered, after laying out millions of money upon war steamers, that they would not answer the purpose, and therefore a new fleet of screw steamers was necessary. That ought to show us the folly of which we had been guilty for so many years of keeping up such enormous establishments. We had been throwing away two millions yearly upon our dockyards, and he really thought that it might be a question whether we ought not to build our ships by contract. He himself should be disposed to object to all additional votes for the navy until all the recommendations of the committee upstairs had been adopted, until our ships had been brought home from foreign stations, where they were only doing mis chief, and until all useless officers had been placed on a retired list. We continued to keep up the number of 150 admirals, although we did not employ 20 of them. He did not know whether it would be of much use, but he pro tested against the vote altogether. Lord J. RUSSELL observed that the question before the gommittee related to the raising of 5,000 additional seamen and 1,500 marines. That question had no connec tion with those to which the hon. member for Montrose had referred, such as the expenditure in the dock-yards and the age of the admirals. He conceived that these topics might be fitly discussed when the naval estimates came under consideration, and then it would be for the members of the late and of the present Government to state their views upon these subjects. But this was a proposal to raise 5,000 more sailors and 1,500 more marines, and he must say that such a proposal had his warm assent. (Hear, hear.) He believed that it was right and necessary to provide a sufficient defence for this island, which was the citadel of a vast empire, and he was very glad that her Majesty's Government, havin g been persuaded that such a f orce was necessary, h a d not shrunk from proposin g it. He beli eve d th a t so f ar f rom i ts being an upopular vote, the nation would gladly learn that it had been carried, and he for one gave it his cordial assent. (Hear.) Mr. W. WILLIAMS said, that on many occasions he had opposed any addition to our naval forces, but in deference to public opinion he should offer no opposition to this vote. He trusted, however, that the people would now be satisfied that the defences of the country were placed on a perfectly secure footing, and that no further expense would be in curred. He suggested that captains of vessels should not have the power of inflicting corporal punishment without a court-martial, and that savings banks should be established in the navy as well as in the army. Sir G. PECHELL remarked that no one doubted the ne cessity of strengthening our defences ; but the hon. gentle man the Secretary of the Admiralty had not told the house what had been done with the money which had been already voted. Ho believed that at no period of the history of the navy had it been in better condition than at present. The Government had asked for 5,000 men, but the obtaining of those men would very much depend on the course which the Government might pursue. He be believed that the sailors were very much dissatisfied at present on account of the stoppage of grog, and that was a very delicate question when sailors were concerned. Proper steps should be taken to regulate promotion among them, and they should be given to understand that their position should not be made worse than that of any other service in the world. Mr. STAFFORD said that 38,0001. had certainly been voted on a late occasion ; but at the same time an under standing was given that it should be maintained for the purpose of a naval reserve. It had not, therefore, been used at all, nor was it the intention of the present board to avail themselves of it. ' these 5,000 men now as k ed M I In e s p T l y A t F o F S co i rRGD. saidP E cE h L a L t for were to have their choice of their ship, and when they had chosen it were not to be removed from it. Mr. SCOBELL congratulated the house and the country that at last they were about to take the right means for our national defence, and he had always held that they had reason to complain, when they were di scuss i ng th e ques tion of defences last year, that the militia force was put in advance of recruiting the navy, and using those natural moans for the safety of the country which Providence had given us. He was glad the motion before the house seemed to be cordially accepted on all sides. (Hear, hear.) Mr. MUNTZ rose to call the attention of the house to a circumstance he had heard that morning with respect to the ordnance. He understood that her Majesty's Ministry were going to increase the artillery. at was here suggested to the honourable member that the appropriate time for the consideration of this question had not yet arrived, whereupon he desisted.] The motion was then agreed to. The next vote was 100,0001. for the necessary expenses of steam machinery for naval purposes during the year ending sth April, 1853. Mr. STAFFORD explained that the number of men at present employed, with the additional 5,000 demanded, would man the fleet and leave a reserve. Mr. MACGREGOR was of opinion that a thorough re form should be introduced into our naval dockyards, and al though he acquitted the Admiralty of blame, he was con vinced that the people looked with suspicion on the changes which were ever taking place. He thought that the pre sent strength of our naval force, if it were well managed, was greater than that of the whole of Europe, and that the proposed increase was therefore unnecessary. Captain DUNCOMBE stated that the vote was required for machinery to complete the vessels now in existence, and that two-thirds of the sum demanded would be spent amongst the constituents of the hon. gentleman. (Laughter.) Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT would say that the unani mous vote of the house proved the sense of the country on this matter ; and that however determined the people of England might bo that their affairs should be managed with economy, they were prepared to make any sacrifice in order to put this country, according to the opinions of the Government, in a perfect state of defence. (He ar , hear.) The vote was then agreed to. The next vote was for 73,9711. to defray the charge of wages which shall come in course of payment in the four calendar months ending March 31, 1853, for 700 additional royal marines to be employed on shore, and for the cloth ing and necessaries of the same. SCOBELL Suggested that it would be worth while in the Admiralty to allow three or four of our greatest shipbuilders to build some of the first-class frigates re quired, merely giving them the tonnage, and permitting them to build after their own fashion ; for we h a d certainly not yet arrived at the perfection of shipbuilding, and our vessels wero far less swift and had less room than the French vessels. The vote was then agreed to. The vote of 37,9291. for victualling stores for 5,000 addi tional seamen and 800 royal marines, for four calendar months, was next put and agreed to. ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. Colonel DUNNE, in moving for these estimates, said that amongst the defences of the countrinone was mere important than the artillery, an increase in which was now asked. The proposition of the Government was, however, most modest—th ey wou ld only move for an addition of 2,000 nien and 1,000 horses. Ho might mention that the only opportunities which they had for drillity , the foot ar tillery in field practice were in Woolwich and in Dublin, and that these being found inefficient, they proposed an addition of 1,000 horses. The cost of maintaining men and horses for three months would be about 70,8331. The next vote was for ammunition 2,7001., and the third item was for the purchase of new heavy iron ordnance, 8,000/. ; making the total sum demanded for this branch of the ser vice 92,6581. Mr. MUNTZ complained that the practice ground for the artillery at Woolwich was perfectly useless, being at right angles with the Thames, so that considerable delay in the practice took place, lest the shots should damage the shipping in the river. He had heard that 60,0001. would be required for the purchase of ground which would be available for practice, but ho thought this sum would be well expended. Col. DUNNE fully concurred in the statements made by the hon. gentleman, and intimated that the Government_ had already entered into negotiations for the purchase of some land at Shoebmyness as a practice ground. Mr. HUME observed that it was a great reflection on former Governments that such a state of things should have continued so long without any endeavour to remedy the defect. The house had now to thank the hon. gentle man Mr. Muntz for having brought the matter forward. It was disgraceful to the authorities that such a state of things should exist, and that public money should be so recklessley squandered. They talked of enjoying the bless ings of peace, but they were called upon to .pay all the expenses incidental to a war. Mr. WILLIAMS saw no reason for an increase in the artillery, as they were 2,000 stronger than they had been for the last 15 years. Mr. HUME inquired how it was that so large a sum as 101. was named in the estimate for bounty. Col. DUNNE replied that the actual bounty only amounted to 51. 15s. 61-3/. was travelling expenses, and there were other charges included in the 101. Sir. J. F. SMITH expressed his opinion that the ar tillery arm of the service ought to be maintained in a state of the greatest possible strength and efficiency. Captain SCOBELL said that at present the strength of the artillery amounted to about 15,000 men. It was a force which, above all others, he believed, they ought to keep in an effective state ; but he was of, opinion that its pre sent strength was sufficient. He would be willing to grant the horses and ammunition asked for, but not the men. Colonel DUNNE observed that the artillery numbered at present 12,000 men. Captain PECHELL begged to suggest that the artillery guns in store should be either used or sold. The vote was then agreed to : as was also a vote of 5,1131. for providing forage for 1,000 horses, and a vote of 2,7001. for additional labour in making up ammunition. A sum not exceeding 14,0001. was proposed to be granted for defraying the expenses of purchasing iron ordnance and projectiles. Captain PECHELL objected to this sum as being exces sive. In reply to an observation of Mr. HUME, Sir J. F. SMITH observed that all the larger ships of the service were now armed with 10-inch guns. Until re cently 8-inch guns had been used, but all naval officers were of opinion that the larger guns were by far more serviceable. The vote was then agreed to. NATIONAL GALLERY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said :—I will take this opportunity of correcting an impression with regard to the next vote which has been erroneously adop ted by the honourable member for Montrose. This is a vote for a sum of considerable amount, not less than 150,0001., for building a National Gallery. I will explain to the house the circumstances under which her Majesty's Government propose this vote. There is no doubt that the time is now come when we : - ..ust study more the industrial education of the people of this country, and we must bring the influences of science and art to bear upon pro duction more than they have prevailed until the present time. (Hear.) A great revolution had taken place in those circumstances which gave superiority in manu factures. (Hear.) Hitherto this country has exercised a very great supremacy by its command over the raw mate rial. But daily the raw material becomes more equalized in price from the new system of locomotion. It is im possible any longer to sustain the supremacy of our manu factures by merely having the supreme command over the raw material, and the intellectual element is becoming one of tho most important elements of competition. (Hear, hear.) This was felt very much during the Great Exhibi tion, and I believe I may say it was the result which was arrived at by those who on that occasion exercised with impartiality the office of examining the productions of all countries. They arrived at this result, which it was un necessary at that time ostentatiously to announce, that if we wished to maintain our superiority in the art of pro duction, we must remember that the intellectual element must be more studied and cultivated than heretofore. (Hoar, hear, hear.) It was found that in many countries there was a superiority in science, and that from scientific agencies there was a power of competition with us, who had only a superior power over the raw material to support our industw, which showed that the time had arrived when we must consider about increasing the means of maintaining our superiority. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, in all the countries of Europe this great want has long been recognised. There is not a town of any eminence in which there is not a school, in which the influence of science and art is not brought to bear upon most produc tions, and there is not a capital in Europe in which there is not an industrial university. (Hear.) Now, there has been no deficiency of means or of feeling in this country for many years. It is a very curious fact that, although we have not succeeded in bringing to bear the influence of art and science upon manufacturing skill with any effect, still, if we count the number of institutions which are devoted in this great metropolis to the cultivation of art and science, and the amount of money that is expended for maintaining them, by voluntary contributions, we shall find that they exhibit a sum of not fewer than one hundred in number, which aro maintained at an annual cost of about 160,0001. The nation also contributes -a sum of nearly 100,0001. in support of considerable institutions, such as the British Museum and the National Gallery, which, added together, make up a sum of about a quarter of a million annually expended for the very purposes which unfortunately have never been effected. (Hear, hear.) The question has naturally arisen why, with such indica tions of the wish of the people to cultivate art and science, shown and proved by their readiness to expend annually such a large sum of money, still any systematic attempt to bring to bear the influence of science and art upon manufacturing industry has never been carried into effect. The result of the experience of the Great Exhibition, and the result of what has taken place in other countries, was a conviction entertained not only by many men of philoso phic mind, but also by many men of practical sense, that the time had come when it was necessary that a certain great effort should be made, and that the influence of science and art upon productions should be brought more systematically to bear. The attention of the Royal Commissioners was attracted to the subject— and here permit me to observe how deeply indebted the people of this country are to his Royal Highness Prince Albert for his unceasing solicitude for the promotion of art in all its branches. (Hear, hear.) The Royal Com missioners found themselves, after a termination of the Great Exhibition, in the possession of a surplus of not less than 150,000/. ; besides that they had as a contribution from the exhibitors from foreign states what served as the foundation of an extraordinary museum, the value of which is now not less than 9,0001. The commissioners, therefore, being more conscious than any other body of men in this country of our grea t d e fi c i ency in these'respects, and of the absolute necessity of making some effort, began to consider whether the opportunity had not arrived, when they might probably give some great impulse to the na tional feeling, and propose to lay the foundation of that complete industrial education of which we are in need. They had to consider what was the reason that in this country, where we should have supposed there existed so many facilities for developing such an edu ca ti on , we h ave hitherto been so unsuccessf u l and without any satisfactory results_in that respect. And they found, after due con sideration, that it was to be attributed mainly to two causes—to want of system, and to want of space—(hear, hear)—and I think it may be really said that to the latter cause the first ought to be attributed. We have a number of institutions scattered over this great metropolis, in none of which can the objects of those institutions be sufficiently or satisfactorily developed from want of space. And while from this cause they . cannot fulfil satisfactorily the object for which they were instituted, their being scat tered in different positions prevents any united exertion, by which their concentrated efforts might be brought to bear. If you examine some of the principal institutions, both those founded by individuals and those supported by the nation, you will find alw a y s one comp l a i nt. If you go to the Royal Society, for example, you will find that for many years there has been a constant appeal to grant them more accommodation, and more room for the fulfilment of the objects which they have in view. If you go to the Royal Academy, you will find that during four of the summer months, a time most favourable to students, the schools are obliged to be closed on account of the prepara tions for the annual exhibitions. (Hear.) I need not re mind honourable gentlemen of the state of the British Mu seum at this moment. I had the honour to-day of attend ing at and receiving a deputation, and that deputation laid before us facts which are probably notorious to honour able gentlemen in this house, though perhaps they are not so much impressed with them as we were ; but the fact is, that, at this moment, we have not room in the British Museum, which is in fact a collection of works upon all subjects, for one single branch of literature, or science, or art. (Hear, hear.) The library of the British Museum is now increasing at the rate of 16,000 volumes a year, and in less than 30 years the collection, which now nearly amounts to 500,000 volumes, will be doubled. It is abso lutely necessary that we should find accommodation for that, for if we once cease to increase the national library, links will be wanting in the chain which will never be sup plied. (Hear, hear.) We have collections of art and science at this moment stowed in cellars, and schools of de sign are obliged to meet in different places and under dif ferent roofs. If you go to the National Gallery, you will find the collection of pictures, which is not so rich as it might be, because there is no proper receptacle for contibu tions absolutely stowed in different buildings, instead of be ing under the same roof, and forming a complete school ofart which, by affording means of tracing the different schools and different ages, might supplya test of our advancement in the present age. The Royal Commissioners, being sensible of all this, thought th a t th e ti me h ad come when some effort must be made to concentrate all these scattered energies for the great object of industrial education. (Hear, hear.) They considered that they should establish one systematic arrangement, and for this pm-pose, that they should or come the gr oa t d e fi c i ency ar i s i ng f rom th e want of,ina suffi cient space. With thi s v i ew th ey h ave purchase . d spot I think emi nen tly su it e d f or th e o bj ec t, a considerable portion o f l an d very near th a t spo t where the Palace originally rose. They have expended the sum of money which remained as a surplus of the contributions of the Exhibiti on , an d th e y a ppealed to her Majesty's Go vernment whether they would recommend to Parliament that the State should contribute an equal sum to that which they thus expended for this object. The house would recollect that this was the last opportunity for all orobtaining that, the want of which has hitherto. made our at tempts for bringing art and science to bear upon the education of the people nugatory,—namely, the want of in this rapidly-increasing city for obtaining a spot where there is so large a space for the development of the purposes we have in view. If the House of Commons will agree to contribute an equal sum, making together 300,000/., we should then be in possession of a space of l an d which would allow us to bring to bear the united influence of science and art through all their fortns and combinations, ete which would b e th e means of affording a Co l3l - el b lisg trial educati on t o the people of this country , - -0 111 to meet th e increased competition to whic h the posed. Part o f thi s space is intended for the er ec . e _t National Gallery. But this is not the only 0b,),,,c‘0 the Commissioners have set before themselves. 1,0 1 , that there should be a great commercial museunit may be found specimens of all the raw produce of u- 1 `1.. L They wish that that should be followed by a r e P e t i e si-e all the machin er y w hi c h the ingenu i ty o f man has to st; or can devise. S o th a t th e machinery win' . -- ther facture the raw p ro d uce an d conver t it into ° may be studied by the people, and that they,., Z r , bee, that study a stimulu s f or th e i r invention. V„1-01; After the machinery we w i s h t o h ave a nother aerj po n,,, in which will be seen the result of the machineLS, of .v raw produce. The Nati ona l G a ll ery and the Onlise and Sculpture will form the f our th division in ho d: , scheme of industrial education.- (Hear.) Si v, ,nrstLiti if the committee will assent to the proposal ive le 0 that we shall d o more than that which I t elb s ves l ,, sketched. Besides th e f our di v i s i ons to which th e le r verted—that of the raw materi a l th e m achinerh A i ot'j facture, and the art which inspires (them — w e ieeP` come a difficulty experienced in this country (# . o : f o i societies, viz., the inability to confer toge t ,.'! e c i t si+ o ,, l Societies like th e R o y a l S oc i e ty, so long 3 of sen,. with steadfast brilliancy ever since the day s s osoef s i have all experien ce d th e diffi cu lt y w hich is e° o o lo o o ble of remov a l f or th e fi rs t ti me. Al m ost all is odor societies in th e kingdom will feel that there tj t o opportunity afforded to th em o f assembling on _00,i111:0. spot ; and w e l oo k f orwar d t o th e ti me when science and art, and all the learned societies 1 11 ; „ a ce. l 'i' : try, formi ng an accumulated radiance of int e 7t 0f spiring not only the metr o p o li s , but everYl be doy United Kingdom. (Hear, hear.) This is rasa that by any forced means. All we recomm end is d e pas o should be afforded, because on space systeni, (hear, hear)—and that when space is afford net t!: should allow the plan proposed to be fairly devr s r s st% I do not know that I can say any more upon t no tsry I only wish it to be clearly understood that it is riere lf sum of money which the house is called to v °t ; e rsliti c i) the purpose of e mu l a ti ng an equa l amoun t of do not know whether.many have read the relw' 0) 1 ' a ; addressed to one of h er M ajes t y ' s Mi n i s t e rs, but 40 yb is something touching in the shillings of the in% o the foundation for th e grea t movemen t o f educa' o f must raise the character and elevate the , nl° o , e 1 1 0 country. (Hear hear.) I think it issa ,t,„t lls' which I am making to the committee, and house will agree to the vote which I now Propq 100 sum of 150,0001. be granted for the purchase Kensington. (Hear.) •id Lord SEYMOUR said that we had been 0) 2 11 of we were superior to all other countries ', i , j3 W, J O factures and arts, an d h av i ng h a d the tAegef(o W°that Exhibitio n , we h a d seen that un l ess r we shall be left b e hi n d h an d i n the race , 110 e 0 I f l/ cordially agreed that something should be " 1°- mote the indu s t r i a l education of the Pe°P - 0 1 ' a 1 and so far they ought to feel grateful to the co 1 16 for their generou s g ift. For his part, howe v e r y be f some difficulties in the way before the report c°- 0 04 fr carried out. For instance, there were societies,or3loo spent 160,0001. a year for the maintenance of t ' tY 1 eat societies. Now, if they could all be broug,h i, o ot,7,ftt spot, it would be very well, but the report " 1- `:, 5 1. that these societies would consent to such rem ° , as he could ascertain, he understood that 0 : 1 1. 00' objected to being removed to Kensington, a . 6 _ thoill'se tanco from town would be very inconvenient w os e ry thought that, with regard to those commercial /j 1 I,ef for t those museums for the raw produce, as well a l3 play of machinery and manufactured articles , The l, t o would have to be built with public moneY. therefore entering into a very large scale of ~ e x p o , and the house sho u ld b e aware o f the extent of to - be As yet there was no plan or map of the proPe rt lf tli h` chased. This o ug ht t o b e l a id upon th e t a ble c i f cove s before any sum w a s e x p en d e d. If th e House 0„,.,it xl, gave this money he w ou ld lik e t o k now i n be vested. All these things should be clearlY";tio o for it was necess ar y th a t th e h ouse s h ou ld be c 3 should proceed with some regard to economY. Lord J. RUSSELL said that he was one 0 , t o commissioners, but he w as a f ra id th a t the infe r ' - v s o rl i v could place at the disposal of the house would l es ti'o perfect indeed. Much depended upon her g e l c oo s vernment, and it was up on th e i r assistance th e Ile)0 sioners should rely. The commissioners we,„ or anxious that th ere s h ou ld b e some institun, foundation of an i ns tit u ti on w hi c h might Pe*: benefits derived from the Great Exhibition al lie VI was thought right not to allow those benefits to iisb 4 tory ; and nothing seemed more likely to o°l ozi e? ) , object prop ose d th an b y g i v i ng th e a d van tage ° 00 0 and art to the industry of the country. . verY o ori c : b observed the Exhibiti on w ith care mus t have _0,4 .' 0. winced that, as it is stated in th e re p or t, from - eno there will be a greater competition in works ° !, :l l° .‘" lirt . than there was her e t o f ore , an d th a t that conille tit o l ; the quire greater attentio n t o th e intellectual par t (14'; . nufacture than has been formerly bestowed' f rya hear.) Looking a t th e su bj ec t i n ano th e r poin t - 0 0 they had been slow in appropriating larg e 00 0 1 ' scientific purposes. (He ar , h ear .) N o one ca ll ;keel notwithstanding tho sums voted for the Briti sh Lg ioSJ that many years can e l a p se b e f ore some " ec specting that instit u ti on mus t b e arr ived 9t. 341 02 ought to have a great nati ona l lib rar y. They .1 1 , the a great number of b oo k s , an d h e did n ot thila‘ i. 004 sufficient for them and the other treasures whi" th d 01+ of natural hi s t or y. If th e y h a d a su ffi c i en t site, erect other buildings suitable to these treasiir e ve„ii was the general object which the commissioner s r gl eil l 'to to themselves. N ow h e h a d no d ou bt if the se w Aot were to be purchased very l arge sums o f money dg ele? contributed, which would e na bl e th em t o e rect ;" - ,eo o , buildings. He thought that the collection of DiO, of pN and the chemical lectures, together with the disPr irl 'e b "; chinery, would form an object of great manufae bl ,, ijv terest, and which it would be well worth the wil"'"•ol3,'‘, country to possess. He had known one instance s v " - o'"if illustrative of what he said—a building erected onlieo, years ago. The Museum of Economic Geology 11 /0/ 6 „, 1 4 been of the greatest use in enabling persons to 0010',,r formation which they otherwise could not obtain. t bo 1 1 0 1 the plan was at present imperfect, he trusted tha t be rit of the commissioners and the disposition of the s ocl t y would lead to the establishment of an institution,,, e °c o , he had described. His noble friend stated that,s e log i e to scientific societies would be unwilling to go to -rl er e''', o , That might be very possible ; at the same time 1 ' 11 0 0 1 ,4 frequent petitions sent intd the Treasury by °C ' + e pt cieties, praying for assistance, and complaining " te they were enabled t o o bt a i n rooms a t a c h ea per O ' s ; e ,ll would be forced to dis so l ve th e i r soc i e ti es . In th e • stances theywould be g l a d t o h ave rooms a llocated ell On the whole, he could no t b u t believe this was p e l f mencement of a great improv emen t, an d h e was prig of to think that, under th e gu id ance o f th e ill u stri° who had already rende re d suc h grea t serv i ce to t P „et f rt industry and ed uca ti on , th a t it would arrive ,b„4 porous conclusion. Writ? Mr. HUME was very a nx i ous t o promo te e L ie which would lead to the advancement of seien,r ; s i 6 „,0) but it appeared to him that there' were diffieuly , po way of this scheme which the noble lord (Longsd 414,0 who had lately spoken had pointed out. For :;tff e ' a . thought, and he had already stated, that th in g money could not be better applied than in convertoN p i te` sington Palace into an instit u ti on o f th e Bort , nd > posed. He had an obj ec ti on t o pu bli c mone y be 1 0,939 away before they knew wheth er th e spo t they thos' secure was the spot best adapted for the p u rpose! / .00',: in view. He had heard that it was intended toe's l ' ep t the National Gallery to Kensington, where it w n ° l o'er be visited by one out of the ten persons who ,e., - ,,t0 6 .0 there. He doubted whether the pictures would P i - ree: 3 o more injury from removal than they possibly cotey from the impurity of the atmosphere to which t now subjected. t . I t ° Mr. DRUMMOND s a id th a t, as f ar as rela e ` e t.sir 1 3 0 public advantage o f g i v i ng every person the ad-1,00,',i0 educating hims e lf i n th e pri nc i p l es o f art an d se.i tle,"iter had no doubt th a t th e B r iti s h M useum i n all orli6'l4 was unequal to the task. B u t th e ques ti on wa 6 ePi o . or not they were embarked in a foolish attemp t leel' t in the people of this country a taste for high art ture had denied them. (Laughter.) He believ i e bo was as absurd an attempt na ti ona ll y, as it woul 4 ",,,i o ter: t r, vidually, to make the same man a sculptor, a P', c or l.l musician, a poet, an orator, a statesman, and , 3 lie { y They all knew that was impo ss ibl e , f or th ere en ° 0 1: 0 division of labour in everything. T o a tt em pt to .00 4 ,,c, people of this country appreciate or like high ar t ; l o p absurd as to m a k e an It a li an lik e beef-steaks e rl et ( j . W it s' The late Exhibition gave th e p eop l e a very use' f 0 16 ;10 They never did excel i n th e hi g h est departmen t , facture ; for instanc e , a t no ti me have they attaa ll ;tW;l perfection of working in iron which they ha ve t iEttl, abroad. Those alt ar screens w h ich are so beau- rth. which may be s een in perfection in the 11° ,,, all made of st one or wood. In Spain, they %he of iron, a n d th ey are made as ...well, and 10 1 " tist's name i s k nown j us t as familiarly as ‘'ilY , °- 14' ing is known in this country to be a Corl e fbe s,` ) o ( Raphael. But you never attain to anything °l 4 . At present your cloth-manufacturer is inferior t 0 ifp r o f the continent. You have never been able to s il t` os e e terns for the cotton printing press ; and n° jt your great painters knew how to draw. (Laught er ' ) r Y. 6- t1 .4 well-known fact, that Sir Joshua Reynolds ne y 'lli how to draw. It is equally notorious that Si r l i 00 0 0 Lawrence never did either. (Hear, hear.) You wi n ottsi difficult to get a person in this country to take au to ivi es drawing of a great painting. Well, you are Pine jolly a taste for these things, Only go into your own 0pt",,0 and look at your own frescoes, and see what you are 4 of achieving. Go there and regale yourselves Yyt er ,) 1 1 specimens of British art and British taste. (Laugn. was now proposed to purchase 70,0001. worth of la ll ero c ei tl ° o they remember that 2,500,0001. was spent in the o d of that palace in which they were assembled, . 3 , ien room, par excellence, which ought to be the chic:" oo : l '4 whole building, was not large enough to contain la „ t, o o e i was impossible to be heard in it when it was bn o 0 they were frozen out of it in the winter. TheY, W r e o it``f embarking upon a sea, and they did not know when to end. There was only one thing which the P 104' 4 this country did appreciate, and that was laT t i, scenery ; but foreigners showed their perfection and he could say— ,' That which with them is always goat, With us is only gout." (Laughter.) Mr. EWART contended that this would be a "e" mil e ` ves tment, for the land now b ought at the Price air would presently reach a higher one in the market., derstood that drawin g f ormed part of the system 0' eib-rnia°; Lion in our national sc h oo l s, and he believed, if th rec , of the people were only educated, they would aPP works of art as well as the inhabitants of any other e ° f the in the world. He did not despair of the proll°eiti°olll o f commissioners being brought to a happy consul,' a nt vot e ' and he should be quite ready to support the Pre sell (Hear, hear.) Che r Mr. C. BERKELEY expressed a hope that tl i i n e tie oee e lf color of the Exchequer would use his powerful, ar t ue to prevent the spoliation of the splendid works ei going on in the National Gallery. (Hear, hear.) un t il Mr. SPOONER could not consent to give h is s i lo w°l o he know to whom the land would be conveyed, w Put have the control of the land, and for what Put so d i land would be employed when they had P„ . ar _ b e e oree te ,;l They were told the new National Gallery was +l(' ues tion io . on it, but he submitted there would be some s .L, so the expediency of removing the National G +u,e`J from the centre of the metropolis. (Hear , lie lsP s aid ° el ; The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQ I /%, nog 1 1 !'l l e was no proposition before the house to build a a4 er. tional gallery, or to raise any other edifice Wi e l y b f, eu ld o e oa l proposition before the house was whether: t c ri om bu m te is a s n io e n q o u rs a t l o sum the w i lth ch t a ha se t o al f r so ea ra d o ya cia d w l t c ) a ' iv-a 0