The Sun. — London, England, 1812-04-29 00:00:00

in substance, though. not in words, the tthipari ',son-made by the Right Honourable Gentleman of the state of the two countries, to that of two men * l lO bad their-heads in a bucket of water. It ap peared by it to be the determination of Government not to relieve the petidoners on account of the idle Punctilio, with respect to which should be the first Power to withdraw its commercial edicts. He con ,: fessed that he had not expected such a declaration in The present state of the country. He had made it distress es his object to inquire into the reality of the a lleged uistress ee , and be had found it but too well esta blished in fact. From every quarter the accounts toecnrred in-representing the employment of the Poor to be scanty, and the price of the necessaries of life to be most enormous. The toed of the manu facturers in that part of the kingdom which he had the honour to represent, was chiefly eotatoes and oatmeal : two hundred and betty pounds weight of • Potatoes could until lately be purchased for seven shillings ; they were now advanced to seventeen shillings. The s Fine quantity of oatmeal could until litely be purchased for, forty-two shillings; it was 'now advanced to 675. The average wages of a Manufacturer were from nine to • eleven shillings a Week ; and how, out of that suni, an individual Could support and clothe himself and family, he was at a loss to conceive. The Noble Lord proceeded , to read extracts of letters which he had received from Rochdale, Bolton, concurring in their state • Illents of the existit.g distresses in those districts; although it was observed that in. the neighbourhood of the last mentioned place, there was rather more e mployineet than (here had been. The trade of Liverpool also he represented as being in a state of great stagnation, and alter a comparison of the for . bier with the present commerce of hat port, cow- Poled that from a half to a third of those who were formerly engaged in it, were now idle. Under all. • t hese circumstances, he thought - the House had but °he line of conduct to adopt, namely, to agree to the •motion with which he should conclude his speech. It, on a full•investigation of the subject, Parliament !hould think it right to recommend to the Prince •It"gent the repeal of the Orders in council, lie should feei vry prd having been the tneans f iducn nem e to doh of o. It should, unfortunat o ely n fail i i g n ht; efforts, it would be sotue censulation to him to reflect that he had done his duty to his constituents. He hoped they would bow to the decision of the douse as reseectfully as he should. He trusted there Would be no r. petition at those disturbances, "hich he deprecated as warmly as any man. At the 'same time he contessedahe thoeght that there was a g r eat deal to b overlooked and pardoned in the ttooduct of those who had been impelled by the Pressure of distress into acts certainly of themselves • of the mot Unjustifiable nature. The Noble Lord oucluci e d by m ov i ug , that th e p e titi o ns from Livers. !of)), Birmingham, and other places, against the Or ders in Council be referred to a Committee of the Wh ole House. Alr. Nos expressed his satisfaction that the time • cone when tLe subject could be fully discussed. ''-' 4Ol ll what had.fallen from the Noble Lord, ; it op- Pealed th it he was wholly unacquainted with the T eal nature of the Berlin Decree. The Noble Lord e described it merely as a municipal regulation, 'stud that of a nature by no Means novel. In May, consequence of prior efforts of France - to distress British commerce, the lute • Goveru inent of this country issued orders to blockade 41 1 the ports trona Blest to the river Elbe. In the Wisdom and jus-ice of this order he perfect ,;.Y cencuried. At that period w e had a naval pow trsufficient to-enforce the blockade, and it was con , *Rent with the Law of Nations to do so. The coos r s quence was, however, the promulgati o n o f t h e • erlin Decree. This decree denied our right to lake merchant ships at sea,, who Were endeavouring to viatte the blockade. Was that not novel ? It declared that a blockade could extend only to feirtie Places, atitually besieged. Was that not . novel Mt oeclared the Britisu Islands to be in a state of block 4de, prohibited . all Contioental intercourse with th em, proclaimed all British subjeCts, w herever 40Und, to be prisoners of war, and what was more f ex traordinary, ' a ll B r i t i s h merchandize, wherever '` lLl tid, to be forfeited. Was all this not novel ? w as i! a municipal regulation ? Nothing could be tore unlike any former proceeding. H e hart often that told that the Berlin Decree was nugatory, and t oat our ships had traded after its promulgation as to interruptedly as before it, ,He readily admitted, • that from the time of its promulgation, in Novem 4er, 1806, until after the peace of Tilsit, in July, , 180 7, the Berlin Decree did actually remain a dead l etter; because, during that time,. the enemy had themeans of enforcing it, Bat the moment that ,peace of Tilsit placed his at my at the disposal of t he French Emperor, he marched troops into all the ports, for tire purpose of cariying the Berlin Decree Into effect. This aaite o, elation of the Decree c ommenced in August, 1807, and it was well known that two months afterwards no less than- 65 British e• ssels returned, heavily laden, from Heligoland, baying been unable to get rid of their. cargoes. In C onsequence of this, the Order in Council "of 1807 Was issued,"and this was followed in the succeeding Thonth by the Milan Decree, which enacted that a neutral of any nation, having touched at, an English tort, should for that act be denationalized. • These uere the two Decrees which the Noble Lord had t , ll araatetised as having nothing new in them, no 'oat had not been common in former ,Wars / In April, 1809, the Orders in Council of 1807 were so Inodified as to confine the prohibition which they Were issued to announce, to France i and the countries l inmediately under her domination. This was fol -I°vved by the Decree of Rambouillet. On this oc casion in answer to a communication from the Ame rican Minister, it had been stated by the Duke de Cadore, " that the Imperial Decrees were confer triable to the eternal principles of justice;" and on the complaint of General Armstrong that 1 . 00 Ame rican ships hid been seized, without any notice be . ing previously given of their danger, he Was told that the conduct cf &gland had been such that it could only be regarded as a declaration of. war against -America, and that war was accordingly considered a declared between England and America from the day on which the English Order in Council was is sued. He wished the conduct of France towards America to be compared .with that of England.---. 'ere, when a number of American vessels were bsoughr in, to-save the expenses and delays attend= ant on the ordinal) , process, a'commission bad been minediately appointed to investigate the losses SUS 144ieci by America, in consequence of wbieb, nO less h ttum than. I,4oo,oiitett had e'eti paid to : Americans. The last proceeding, on the part of Frande, was that of issuing a - Seeatus Consultum, in which it was declared, that till the British Orders in Council were rescinded, and the principles of the Treaty of - Utrecht in full force, every Neutral ves-, sel, touching at any British Port, would be con sidered as denationalised, and the Berlin and M lan Decrees enforced accordingly. Much had been heard in that House of the Berlin and Milan Decrees hav ing been actually repealed. r He (Mr. Rose) had on former occasions stated cases of vessels being cap tured, which he conceived justified him in coming to a different conclusion ; 'but now they had a po sitive authentic instrument to refer to, Which con firmed those Decrees, and which declared all na tions to be denationalised who suffered their mer chant ships to be searched. The right of searching merchant vessels had never before been questioned. The late Declaration of the English. Government, which the Noble Load appeared to view with much dissatisfatlion, as he thought the *rescinding of the Berlin and Milan Decrees ought not to be the mea sure,on which the resumption of our commerce with America.should depend, appeared to him lo be such that nothing could be more satisfactory, as it declared oire - Orders its Council to be repealed when ever the Decrees of France should cease, and re pealed retrospetativele, so as to have effect from the very day on which thostemeasures were actually at an end. Having thus shewn what were really the proceedings of England, he came to consider what would be the effect, of. the repeal of our Orders in, Council. Would any man say, that .if repealed to America would open her ports to us ? Th it it, was certain si.e would do so, he'denied, as she had repeatedly t , Id England that that alone would not satisfy her, as she required that we should give up out present system of blockade.-- Why then we were to purchase our intercourse with . America by giving up our . mariiime rights. These, he contended, by complying with her wishes, would he given up, and given up for, at best, but a pre carious advantage.• From the moment ar which these were given up we should suffer most severely in our trade: The instant tfese Orders in Council, were repealed, the ports of almost all - the world would be thrown open to France, to furnish her with raw materials necessary to the carrying on het manufactures. America would have the carrying trade; and thus the cortnnodit'.n of France would be conseted to South America, the Brazils, and to the whole Comment of Europe. Thai the commo. - dines of Birtrungham, and other manufacturing towns, would fine an immediate vent and a cenii del able market, he did not deny, but it was necessary to consider w hat would be the consequence to our ' trade' in other respects;—what effect it would have ultimately on our trade to other parts.— ' The Cade at, present carried on with the North of Europe, amountee\ in the last year to 18,500,0001. being k,0p0,0001. more than its amount in 1806, and he had the satisfaction to state, that within the last eight weeks it had been increasing 100,0001.. per week on what it was at the corresponding pe riod in the last year. Was this then the time at which we' should risk the whole, of this trade ? The exports to America had ton merly amounted to about 12 millions annually. Of this about half had been carried on on account of foreign col o ni a l aettletnents. Toe fair coosumption of America might then oe taken to have been six millions. Itr the last year our exports to America were 2 In 1805, their amount was 11,500,0001. In 1806, and 1807, 12 millions. In 1808, they fell to five trrillions three hundred thousand pounds, and his (Mr. Rose's) opinion had bets, that as the trad e fell off with the United States, it would in crease with other parts of AmeriCa ; and this opi nion had been borne out for three years, as th e ex ports 19 other parts had increased from t i ,000,000 f.. to 18,000,0001. in 1808, In 1309 they were nearly the same; and in 18 10,1 hey amounted t0t7,000,0001. In 'the last year (1811), they had however again fallen to 11,803,0001. the exports to the U n tie d 'States being but 2,000,0001. If we e could get over the great stumbling block, the Orders in 'Council, and the trade_ of America were again open to us, - all we ought to expect was, that our exports to the United Sates would be rased front 2,000,0001. to 0,000,0001, annually. If, hoe ever, we suffered a loss of 4,000,0001. from the want of an open trade. to America, what did America stiffer herself ?-- From a paper which had .b en presented be fore Congress,. it appeared that her anneal ex ports Amounted to about 45,000,000 of dollars.— . Of these 3,000,000 were to Prussia, 20,000,000 to England, eighteen mil.ilons, to Spain and Portugal, 1,190,000 to France, and to all other parts of the . World bet wen 2 and 3 thousand.. _Compare the ins portance of her customers. To France her exports were under. 2,006,000, to England and her allies 38,000,000 out of 45,00,0,000, the total amount of her exports. This was the state of American commerce, and if the measures which she had thought proper ,to adopt were injurious to us, what were they less. drab . ruinous to her ? The Right Hon. Gentleman proceeded to reply to the Observa tions made on out' Ships having been forced out, of the carrying trade, to the great encouragement of foreign shipping. WhTfeon this subject, he proVed that the English ships ernplojed in trade exceed . :d the number so employed in 1806, as , in 1811 their number was 12,774, while in 1800, it wan 12,239. In the last year he admitted there was a falling off of 300, but half the number of foreign ships em ployed are fallen off within. the same time ; so that, while half the foreign ships were thrown out ,of employ, the number of English ships gaged in ttade, was greater than it was in faoG.— - To repeal the Orders in Council would, he was con;: fident, injure the West India, interest, as the con sequence would be, the sugars of the Brazils and.of the Havannab would be biought to the continent of Europe ; and though certain districts might be relieved by the tepee' of the Orders in Council, he thought it would be injurious to the interests of the nation at large. He then defended the' policy of the License System at some length. These Licenses had been spokeu ' of as if they were new in their nature, though such had been granted in many for rater wars. Under the state of things which had been spoken of as so deploreb.e fur this country, he had the satisfaction to state, that since April last notwithstanding all the French EmperOr had done with a view to injure us, the exchanges had risen in our favour 15a Whit Harnhurgh,9/ with Amsterdam, • and 12 per cent. with Paris. The Right Hon. Gen tleman 'next Vindicated himself from tl change which had been nrdcagainst hitt, or loving treated the deputation from Birmingham with any thing like levity. He had been 30 years in the public service, but had never had such an imputation . throw n out against him before. He was almost the last man in the world who could be guilty of treat ing the distresses of others with levity. In- proof of this be begged to offer as evidence certain let ters, which he had received from the journeymen weavers, and other journeymen manufacturers; ex pressing their gratitude •for his condnet tOWaeds' them. [Part of these letters • he here read.] He begged pardon for thus intruding on . the House, which he would not have done, but (he declared to God) that nothingshort of an accusation'of having• committed some-horrid crime, could have hart his feelings more than such a charge. He concluded la menting that the people had beenied to believe, that all their distresses grew out of the Orders in .Coun cil, and that those repealed all would be well'. He should much deplore their repeal, if such an event were to take place; but thinking some ineptly de sirable in satisfy the public, of their necessity and utility, he should not object to the motion , of the Noble Lord: Sir C. MORDAUNT made a short statement con nected with the subject , which was not distinctly heard in the gallery. Mr.. DUGDALE, said, the Right Hon. Gent. (Mr. Rose) had used words when he saw the deputation •something like what had been repeated, but he de nied that he Wad treated them with any thing like levity or disrespect. Mr. A. BARING could hardly be induced to be lieve, on any evidence, that the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Rose) would neat with levity or disrespe& such respeetaele persons as composed the deputation from Bitininghatn. On the subject of the Orders in Council, he contended that it was to be inferrechirom the papers published" by the Ame rican Government, that if they, ,were.rescinded the. Non•lntercourse Ad would be repealed without any regard to the question of blockade. It was very de sirable to ascereain if she hostility imputed to the American Government agaiust this country aetually existed. He would contend that at the time the American Government assumed thatthe-Decrees of Berlin 'and Minn were repealed, they had fair .grounds to believe that they really were so, as it had been formally communicated to . t hem by Franceehat - they had ceased to be 'in force. But then it was ,Said, what credit were such communications from . the French Government entitled to? Was this the language which America could hold to airiendly Goveinment, or to a dovernment With whom. she -had those relations which had existed between her and France? It was formally announced to Ame rica that those Decrees were conditionally repealed. One of the conditions was, that England should re peal her Orders of Council. This America believed would be immediately dooe.on its being known that the Decrees of France were repealed.. There was another condition also, intimating that :France was not to be expected by America to mate any altera [ion in het laws at- home.. • England contendd that things shall be restored to that state in which they were before those Decrees were issued, that is, we required an alteration of the municipal la A's of France with respetteo -the admission of English commerce into places under her influence. To this requisition on our part, America answered, we have nothing to do, as a third Power, with questions wholly at fect4rig the .W Belli s. He knew of no re cent condemnatiOn of American..property uneer the Berlin and Milan Decrees, tlrough Ire knew that vessels had been carried into France. Upon the view of the whole of the circumstances, he could ' not see-that grass partiality for France, arid that ,hostility to Eeglaud Al4ll had been so often -im puted to the American Government. The great question conneeted with the Orders in Council was, what good do we t'erive from them ourselves ? If the country were in a Siete ut prosperity, it might be very well to say, let us persevere in our present system : but when the reverse of this was the fact, and a:snost every manutaaturiug town had a Petition on their table, he conceived it was for the House to come to a, very different conclusion. If irwas the objet to import raw materials, and to expo'', manu factured commodities, he contended that there was nothing in the Orders of council as they at present striod to prevent this, and therefore in that point of view, France could detive no benefit from their re. peal. Their repeal would not injure the West India interest, and would in his opinion be beneficial to the Empire at large. Lord CASTLEREAGH said the vote he should give • was net an admission against the merits Of the ques tion, but merely a concesion to the wishes of the deuntty, to go into italuiry on the subject. Tne Orders in Council were not mere commercial regu lations,' but measures of retaliation against-France; and as an effort against the enemy, they were effi cacious. , The 'Berlin and Milan DecreeS, he con tended," were in full force, and England was always prepared to say, that, the-Orders in Council should fall when those a•creeS were withdrawn. The con dition, however, put on the other side, was, that their Decrees should tall with the surrender of our of blockade. He trusted that if there was any hostile feeling in America towards us, the cons , duct of France . would bring her back to more mild faVotirable sentiments. We should not revoke our system in rayons of one neutral to the manitest injury of all Others. He would allow that Mr. Monroe did not contend against tire principle of 180, but there wasa period in which America joined France, to .call upon us for a revocation of those prieciples of bloCkade which we had hitherto mainiained, and the'adoption of the maritime rule of France. When such a demand was made, he hoped the Hoes& would not be inclined to look upon it as a mere commercial question. America, he trusted, would not make our conduct a cause of war ; but if she did, our duty would be to, satisfy our own minds as to the justice of the case' and not to be deterred by our apprehension of war from the pursuit of what we know to be right. On the commercial part of the suojea he could not help ob serving that there waa a disposition in Oentlemen greatly to exaggerate the difficulties expellent:ed. To impute those difficulties to tbesOrders in Coon eil, was neiiker logical nor fair. Looking to the do cuments on the - table _they would find, that the whole state of tie commerce during the pr9sent war, had experienced an - increase rapid beyond .ex ample, extensive, and unnatural in its degree. They would find that, at the present moment, the export of British manufadures within the year exeered,:a ttlie whole - ilthount of the rrlinnfaa ore! of / Prince.-67- The amount of the latter for 'the 1 ist year was 64,000,0001. the amount, of the - foriner for the sarot period, 62,000,0001. OpOrl the whole; the last four vearS under the Orders in CoUncil had pro , duced 4 at 5,000,0001. more thin the (our preceding years. Much of die present difficulties might be traced to ..this Unnatural, and as lie might, call diseased Ind giOntit success; which recoiled back upon the ditt•tlistit's and mannfaatirters. There was souletliipg in the very prosperity _or this country which rendered it more liable to such diffilAtities, by rendering'the individuals less willing to leave their own ttailei for others, The ditea trade with the United Stares of America, he • would allow, was di-. minished by the unfortunate commercial hostility ; but the exports to the other parts had Olsen in 'pro portion, so that the general trade across the Atlantic diJ not, suffer. Notwithstanding the policy of the Emperor of France, there was much of the trade of Franceinow•opento us, and our intercourse with the Continent of Europe in the last year had pro duced 13 millions sterlitig. He intreated that Gen tlemen would not throw 6:it-loose and general allu sions u c on this sunjea, calculated to etnnitter the feelit'gs of those Who' suffered Inder difficulties which the remedy proposed must aggravate mater than 'diminish. He was glad that inquiry would be adopted, but Wished his assent to the motion to be considered not-as any un wisp disposition to sin-- renckr: the rights of the country, but a desire to shew the people that there was no intention to de. cs-ive them. • Mr. BROUGHAM said, he had • had the honour of seconding the motion for a Committee of the whole House; but he. should not now trespass on their time, by uttering a single word as to. t{ie merits of the Orders in- Council. When the inquiry 1%35 adopted, the time for that would come.. He de precated the exulting tone adopted by. Noble Lord, in „speaking •of the prosperity of Our com merce; but his principal designin rising Was to,call t heir attention to - the meaning of the present vote., The Noble Lord bad :said, thlt he would go info the Committee, not from any doubt in the .n - ea 4 sures ; but he (Mr. B ) would ask, was clot the very a6t of going .into a Committee, puiting tho measures on theft trial ? He cautioned the House and the Country against the delusion of going into, Committee, upon an understanding that, they sbouA never be abandoned. He coneluded•with suggest ing that. the Committee should sit to-morrow, and proceed from d3y to day. Mr. R()SE explained. Mr. STEPHEN contended, that the volutries of Grotius,• Paffendorf, and Vatel„ shpuld not he ex cluded from their 'consideration. The Hon. Gen tleman, he thought, might permit them to lOok forward on their own ides to the termination of the inquiry, anti to suppose tnat the , measures would appear to be founded in good policy. lie would confess that he did not expect many salutary effects flotin the- Committee, because lie remembered- the b ,dy of, evidence produced about four years ago, : not withstanchng which, thc T gb. no oue had th e courage to move resolutions, as4ertiotiS were made and circulated contrary tor the evidence. He rather assented to the COinmitttie as a negative good, and merely for the 'purpose of preventing m'scons:ruc tion. He corroborated the statement'of the Noble Secretary (Lord Catlereagh) respecting the corn- . mereial operation of the Orders in' Council, and cooted various passages from the correspoßcierce be tween the two Governments, to shew th at th e abandonment of the principle of 1806 was required by .theAtnerican Government. i It was for the sake of tie merchants and manufacturers that the s)s'em was introduced, and whatever the Petitioners might say, the House must be aware that persons attend ing to their business in forges and.looms, could not, take that comprehensive view of the subject which those, in ofticial.situations were accustomed to eXer— ci,e. He di•approved in. strong terms of introducing the riots into the question of the Orders in Cov ed, and .maintained that the yellow fever might with as much justice be ascribed to that measure as the present scarcity ; still he was . • ready to go into a dispassionate inquiry, and he hoped that Gentlemen on the other side would not adopt the same course as on the fanner occasion. If any good was to be expected, it must proceed' from temperance alone: Lord STANLEY (in explanation) said be had not stated - that the, Berlin Decree was a mere municipal regulation. He wished to inquire . whether, if it should appear that the Orders in Council constituted the principal cause of the present distress, his Ma jesty's Government wculd give up the measure, or perseverein their former declaration ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that as one of his Majesty's Government, he could not make any statement previous to inquiry. He sup. posed the House would inquire into the various causes of the distresses of the manufadturers,-but did not think that they would abandon those mea sures, merely upon theground of a temporary pres sure. The House would therefore endeavour to as certain what the extent of the pressure was, what the extent of the causes was, what their extent might have been, and to what extent their abandon ment might be injurious to the country. He there fore thought it impo,sible for him to gi‘e any pledge upon the subject. 'Mr. TIERNEY ascribed the appointment of the Committee.to the Minister's wanting support. CHARGES MADE BYIHE_AMERIGAti GOVERN. MENT. Mr. WHITBREAD, after a few observations on the general question, called the attention of the House to a transaction alluded to in the Messege of Mr: 'Madison to Congress, charging this Govertunetic with being partieS in an endeavour to disturb the union of the United Sates. He then read sage frOm a letter of Sir James c.riig to Mr. Henry, stating, that if the Federalists of the Eastern States should obtain a decided intlueoce, it was not imnio bable they would exert their influence to bring about a separation from the general union,' and requiting him to transmit the earliest information on this sub ject to the Stitish Government, asc..trtaining, among other things, haw far they would be inclined to look up to England for asssistance, or be disposed torei ; ter into a connection with tier. He (Mr. Whitbread) Wished fir some it , forMation from his Majesty Ministers_on this subject. LOrd-CASTLEHEAGH said, ha wv obliged to the Hun. Gentleman for giving him an opportuin:t%• u; : on a matter which he could not nett, saying was unianly brought forward by iht! Atracri can Gov UrnaleU t. They had charged the Gi,verti-