The Sun. — London, England, 1812-03-14 00:00:00

.EVIPLRLIL PALL HOUSE OF PEERS, FRIDAY, DIARCH 13. ROXBURGH PEERAGE Their Lordships, in 'a Committee of Privileges, entered upon the consideration of this important case, viz. with resped to the claiins - of • Sir Jairtes Inoes Kerr, Bart'. to 'the abOve honOtirs add digid ties. Io this view, a ‘ariety of cl,,eumentary evi dence was adduced relAtive to the subjeat of pedi gree.' Sir Samuel -Rotnilly appeared as leading Counsel for the Claimant. Several -other eminent Counsel attended. The'Attorney-General appeared on the part of the Crown. About five o'clock ? , the Committee adjourned its proceedings till Mono day next. The Hou . se then resumed, and after Prayers were read, the Bills upon the table, were forwarded in their respeOlve stages. Anttag these, the Lottery AMendment Bill, and the Tobacco Importation Bill, were read a third time, and passed. The LORD CHANaELLOR acquainted the House That with respect to the case of the Roxburgh Peer age, he understood there were two important wit.: nesses to be sworn, who could n thave the oaths administered to them in time, should the Commit tee of Privileges sit on Monday ; it was therefore, he said, his intei;tion to move the House, that the Committee should be crdt.red to - sit on the next day (Tuesday). This intended arrangement, seemed to meet the concurrence of their Lordships. Several Private Bills were brought up- frcim the Commons, and read a first time. PORTUGUESE ARMIES.-MESSAGE FROM THE REGENT. The Earl of LIVERPOOL presented a Message froirrhis Royal Highnes ? the Prince Regent, on the subjed of the continu ince of the assistarfce furnished last year to the armies and military system of his Majesty's Allies of Portugal, and desiring the con= currence of their Lordships in measures to enable his Boyd Highness to continue the same in the present year• The Message was similar in form and substance to that - delivere.l to the Commons, to which we refer. . The Message was, on the motion of the Noble arl, ordered to be taken into consideration OnMou day, to witichslay their Lordships adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. FRIDAY, gAltal The Infant Suitors' Bill went .through a Cortirnit tee, and th.; Report was ordered to be received on Monday. Tfi.- drop Order for a COnimitiee on the Pilots' kill, was renewed for Wednesday next. STROUD POOR BILL. Sir Enw.tsito KN'ATCHBULL moved the third read ing of the Stroud Poor Bill. Sir S. RozeiLLY said there was a clause in the Mil to which he should feel it his duty to move some Amendment. It was in his opinion a thing much to be desired to simplify the Poor Laws, as they stoo:l at present, and to have the same regulations for all the Poor Hobses in the Kingdom. In some, he understood that persons who misconduEledthern selves. suffered corporal punishment'; in others, so litary c finetnenrwas practised ; while, in others, the penalty was comparatively light. In general, it depended oo the ind victual bringing in the Bill for the erection of such Houses. He could not but Conceive that the law ought to be uniform. If Pa rish Officers ought to have the power to bind chil dren out to persbns residing in Scotland, they ought to ha , e that power generally. How this was to be provided for he did not eXa6tly know; but, perhaps, it might be done by a Standing Order, to prevent any provision from being made for an,y house of the kind, which was not applicable to all. The Legis 12ture was pecitliarly called upon to preted the roor wretches who were driven to such a refuge.— There were some clauses in several 'Bills, which had pas , ed, allowing the Trns!ees to bind out the Chil dren at any age; and in the present Bill, there was a clause of a similar kind ; this he thought highly objeatonahle. It was true, that some provisions had been rna:!e for the prote6lion of Apprentices, but t hev did not extend to Scotland. If Parish Otii -cers were to be alloWed to bind Children in Scot land, he did not see why they might not send them on a voyage to the West Indies, Or they were just as much separated from their connections in the one case as in the other. He concluded with moving,_ that in the clause for empoe criag the Trustees to bind out he Children at the nge of 14, or. sooner, the words " or sooner" should be omitted. Mr.D. GIDDY agreed that the . Ponr Ficnses ought to be regulated by general laws. He cliwproved gleatly of the present system of Poor. Laws, under Whiell, however, he 'bought that punishments were necessary. Sir E. KNATCHBULL said, the clause objected - to Ras considered-most . nviterial by the 1)m -tie's at whose instance the Bill was introduced : and if the opposi tion was persisted in, he should feel it his. duty to take the sense of the House. Mr.TnompspN said,. he, had seen boys of from ten pp. welveyears of age apprenticed out very usefully, on which account he would suggest to his Hon. Fri , s-nd, Sir S. Romilly, to substitute ten years in the place of fourteen, to which it would stand limited by Lis amendment. Sir S. ROMILLY said, the consequence of the Bill, as it stood at present, was to enable the Trus tees. to place children out at the tenderest age; he knew of one parish that had sent :twenty children out in one year at. the age of seven, to a house in Scotland. He agreed to the suggestion of his Hon. Friend. After a few words from Mr. D. Giddy, Sir E. Knatctibuil, - Mr. Buller, Mr. Thompson, and Mr. G. Vansimrt, the House; divided on th 9 question that the blank should be filled up by the words "ten years." Ayes Noes • 37 • 4 0 • -3 Majority . PORTUGUESE ARMIES.-MESSAGE FROM THE REGENT. The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER appeared at the Bit. of .the 1-,louse with a Mess;ige from his ordered to be brought up, was, read by ale Speaker as follows " GEORGE P. R. " The Prince Regent, in the name, acrd on behalf of hiS Majesty, thinks proper to inform the House of Coatiwns, that the assistance which he has been able to give to the'rer; tuguese Government, his Allies,- has furnished the means'of improving the military establishment of that country, and of rendering conspicuous the va:our and discipline of its Armies, in the successful deliverance from, and defence of Portugal against the enemy. The Prince, therefore, trusts that be Will be' enabled to give the Sadie assistance in the present year as in the last-4rom whi r chinClt important con_ sequences to the cause of the Allies have resulted." .Zile CliAticEL, Loh of the Es eit Etatlitt gave no- tice, that he would move the consideration of- this in the C of Supply, on Monday 'next. _ Mr. BANKES postpones! the second reading of theSitteCutv Place Bill, from ruesday next to Tues. ,seinnight. Mr. LONG moved .fot a Copy of Mr. Moisey's Report . on Public Odices is 1807. Ordered.,-, - Sir F. Boariaarr. gave polite, that he would move, on Monday:next, fOr a. 4 Account of the Number and Pay of the Clerks puspluyed in, the Navy drfice•. MUTINY BILL On the motion for the third readings of the Mu . iny Bill, Sir P. BURDETT rose iticonseruence of his no ice; to do that' which he conceived to be not only a .duty to the army, but, under the existing cir cumstances, a duly to the country at large. He was persuaded, that there were very few Gentle men whd were not as desirous as himself to get rid of flogging in the army, an inflittion, which, ts) a cir cumlocution, was termed corporal punishment, as if those, whri stippurtedahe pradice, were esharned of the direet and simple word by which it was de scribed. The object which he had in view was, by no means to abolish other descriptions of corporal punishtrient, such, for instance, as temporary im prisonment, which might, and mutt be, very ne cessary to the diseipline of an army ; but only that particular description of eureoral putti4imeet. In cases which required such severity, even death was preferable to the lash ; it wouiu cresnoce more to the good of the service, and it would better main tain the honour and character of the soldie, and of the nation. He was persuaded, that many Gentle men were not aware of the consequences of the pu nishment which he reprobated. He was persead ed, that they did not take iuto their consideration the disqualifications which it occasioned ; a rL.flec tion of stilt greater importance, when it was recol leded that our present military system embraced the whole male populat'on of the country above the age of eighteen years. Mr. Justice Blackstone, put the who. had been punished by, flogging,. on a footing with those who had been convitted the worst and most disgraceful crimes. According to him, they might be challenged on juries, and were liable to other severe legal disabilities. 41e (Sir F. B.) had found it impossible to trace the way in which this praelice 'had crept into the army, but he believed,s that it was only during the present war that it had been culled to a great and dangerous extent. In fact, it was in the nature of such punish ment to go on in an increasing ratio; for when a class of persons Were accustomed to one degree of severity, it would soon cease to operate in prevent ing the commission of those 'offences against which it was originally diretted.. This was the uniform course of severe punishments in all countries, until at length they arrived at a pitch at which humanity shuddered, and were, nevertheless, found to be de fedive and inefficient. Certain, he W 3 ,, that on this subjed, all who heard him, niustpartake of the abhorrence which he felt, although perhaps not to that extreme degree entertained by hitnself.. lae trusted their abhorrence, would be increased, if he, could shew,that this praclice was as impolitic as it was inhuman. To prove this, however, was no easy task ; for it was alWaya difficult to establish that by reason on which the heart instantly deter Mined ; and he confesses! that he almost doubted his power of convincing the understanding of those, who did not ineeiediately.revolt from the contemplation of the usage, and who could be cool enough to enter into an argument upon it That it was not an anci ent pradice, a reference to the Statute Book would sitaiLiently evince. In the early Statutes, the pu nishrnerrs of military offences, like those of other offences, were specified, and those offences, like other ofiencea, were universally referred to the de ciSioe of Jude,es and a Jury. ,The 18th of Henry VI. declared military desertion to be felony without benefit of clergy, and provided that the offender should be tried ny a Jury. There were statutes of Henry VII: and of Likl'usard VI.. to the same erred. y tho'se statutes, absenCe from the muster-roll was punishable by a short imprisonment, while, by de sertion the puntshnient nt death was declared to be incurred. So it was during the deigns of Henry VIII. and Philip and Mary, and up to that last named period, military offences were tried by the same tribunals as offences of every other descripti on, and were punished by similar intlietious. , He believed that any upholder of rise present.system o f flogging would he eery much, put to it to shew that it was the practice e. en in the armies under the g'o- Tiell3 Duke of Marlborough. Indeed he (Sir Fran - - cis) had it from persons who had been very long in the army, that in their yo.ith years and years elapsed without rt solitary instance of the recurrence of this punishment.- In lieu of it, men were drum med out of a regiment. When a boy, he re colleCled having had such men pointed out to him. This praCliee of drummingg out had however ceased. The inference Was, that there was such a change in the condition of a soldier, that to send him out , of the army was tb benefit, and not to punish him.— Torture had been substituted for dismissal. And why The Only reason was, that our soldiers did not receive a reward adequate to their servic'es. An Officer was not flogged. To disitsias him was con sidereda sufficient punishment fbr many otfeeces ; btu to dis Miss a soldier was considered a reward.— .The Learned Judge - Advocate had 'told the House the other day, that he had great consolation in in forming them, that during the last year, there liad been only eight soldiers sentenced to be flogged by General Courts Martial, and that of those eight sen tences only one had been inflicted, which one was also at the option of the offender, who preferred tv 111, ally he was at a loss to know whence the Learned Gentleman derived his consolation. If he meant to say,. that this disgraceful pueishment had decreased . in fr&pency, the fads which the Learned Gentle man had stated did nOt bear him out in the assertion. It was well known that punishments, of thatade seription, consequent on the sentences of General Courts Martial, were not numerous. Had the Learned Gentleman stated the matter fairly, he would have told the Rouse hoW many floggings had been intlitied in consequence of the sentences of Regimental and not of General Courts Martial. In ttiat - Case, he feared the Learned Gentleman might have added the word- " thousands" to the word . "'eight." Such, he was informed, was the Ilia, and in that case it could not be said that military flogg . e.g was on the decline. He should be happy, however, to be further enlightened on the subject by the Learned Gentleman. With respe& to the effect of -this species of punishment, the greater part, if not all the -officers with whom he had any conversation .on the subject, declared unu voce that it was a mode - of punishment' which had been sadly abused, and that it could- not be got rid of altogether, at least the offences should he specified to whit:ll . 4 might con tinue to be applied. In 'support of these veriael opiuionsl he quoted the written otres of Gentle' Colbourite, Major Jamea, Sir •RoberaWilson, Gene ral Stuart, &c. who concurred in describing flogging as a punishment cruel in the greatest degree, and so stigmatising in its nature, that the man on whom it had been inflicted was rarely afterwards able to hold up h.s . head: , They unanimously declared, that for one who was reformed lay the punishment, many a good soldier .(guiity of no moral crime, perhaps), tumbrel to bear the shame in-which be was involved, became woolly regardless of his future conduct, and was lost to the service and to the country. He had been informed that men who had undergone a tor ture, which appeared to be too much for human na ture had long afterwards been known to shed tears like a child at the recollection of the disgrace they had - sotfered. He put it,to the House, whether men capableat once of such fortitude and such feeling, should be exposed to a punishment which, if in fbeted at all, ought to be reserved for the basest of mankind, and to which the members of a pro fession of which honourable -feelings were the basis„ ought never to be subjected. By it perseverance in this system, the moral character of the British sol diery would be destroyed, and with it all those great energies on which the country must ultimate ly rely fur protection. When Patliament contem plated the conduCt of our gallant troops, and the way in which they had maintained the ancient cha racter of the national bravery, they would, feel . the claim which the Army had on the consideration of 'the country, and they-must feel that men who had strewn themselves capable of such glorious exploits, did not need that description of discipline which it was the object of his motion to abolish. This feeling must be.strengthened by the knowledge that the best regiments in the British service were those in which the practice of flogging least prevailed. Whenever the Officers 'of a regiment used proper vigilance to see, that the soldiers had their 'dues, when they removed the suspicion of ill-treatment, when they checked small offences, and thus re pressed the spirit of disorder in its infancy—when a regiment was fortueate enough to possess such Officers, there would be seldom found occasion to use a cat o'nine tails. Formerly much of the se verity of military discipline arose from a suspicion (too frequently well grounded) on the part of ,the soldiers that they - Were unfairly tteaied. A great portion howeVer of the causes of this suspicion had been done away in the British army. Discontent therefore, and the offences to which it instigated, had diminished, and this horrible punishment was conse quently rendered less necessary, if, indeed, it could ever be said to have been at all so. lie was happy to bear this testimony to the efforts made to diminish those abUses by which the comforts of' the private had been so seriously invaded. As a specimen of % these efforts, he -cited an' Order addresSed to one of the Regiments of Guards, prohibiting every Non-com missioned Officer • from deriving any profit from the purchases which he might make for the uses of the privates. At the same time, from what he had ob served while in the 'Tower s he believed that there were still some grievances (at least they were so re presented to him) Which would admit of relief.- -The greatest, - however, of ail grievances was that which he was _then condemning. It was impossible to-know how many - soldiers died in consequence of this punishment. Not long ago -no Jess than - eight died at Gibraltar in consequence of it. When a ninth "man was brought to the Court Martial, the Officer, refused to itifliCt the punishment upon him. They were dismissed and sent home; but on a re presentation made to the Commander in Chief they were reinstatedin their rank. In . his first report of these cases, the Surgeon staled that these unfortunate men died of penishment; in his . second, that they died of fiver. There was one great advantage which attended the substitution of the punishment of death for that of flogging. It would • not be so lightly infliaed. Flogging was also a most une qual punishment. Net only did the severity of it depend in a great degree on the caprice of, the Commanding Officer under w hose orders it was in flicted, but en the sensibility of the unfortunate be ing on whom it Was iofrieted. The instruments of torture too might be vat ie.l, according to the dia position of the intlialor of the punishment. In different regiments, however,, different instruments were used ; and even in the same regiment, accord ing to the idea which the Officers entertained of the offence committed. It bad been argued that the army was composed of such a description of men as to render this punishment necessary. 'How unjust the imputation the acts of that artny abundantly established. Unquestionably if the late practice of introducing men from the hulks into our brave and honourable regiments were to be permitted, some jestification might be found for this base punish- Mem. But how indefensible was it to treat the vvis t ;tle army with indignity on the score of a few hub Ired wretches who had been sent to increase its 'numbers, though certainly not to augment its strength. There were some Hon. Gentlemen, how ever, who possessed such a perverted humanity ; ho were so tender of human life, though not of human feelings; who were so economical in their views on the • subjea, that they would not indict that punishment on heinous military of fences] which- would immediately deprive the coun try of the services of those on whom it might be in . • I\T the most humane punishment, and that by which the number amen in the service would be increased (considered in comparison with. flogging), was death. Let the Recruiting Officers be asked, as to the ape,' ration of the feared flogging on those who may wish to enlist ? What was the answer of such men'ta their invitation ? /‘ No, no ; we will not run the risk of being tied to the halberts." To this evil was to be attribute& the high bounties. To this evil was to be attributed the numerous desertions ; tor many so/diets who had been guilty of trivial offences, -apprehensive of the torture of this punishment, en deavoured to make their escape, by desertion, with the siew.of at least postponing the evil day. " But," said those who were opposed to him in opinion ors this subject,." what thsli we substitute (or' the pus nishinent which you condemn, ?" In the lan , euage, he believed, of a high and distinguished Officer, the aothor of an article in Jarnes's . llli. filary Dislion4r7 j , he would reply, " I again say, - ,abolish it. I will not trust myself to reason on tho subjea." If, indeed, he were asked what he would propose as a subStitute equally base and disgraceful, • he should not know what to say in answer, But if he were asked for a different principle of clitciel:ne e . ire would say, " Reward." To reward the soldier` better, would be to improve his conduct. ,The Couto , • try could well affiard to do. this, for it would be a useful expence. It was lamentable -to see brave men Watittering about the streets who had been de pri‘ed of their limbs in those glorious .battles of which we boasted, and to whom, as a remuneration for their services, the miserable pittance of 6.J.--or gd. a day had been allotted. What man could live on , sucleao allowance? It was true that sonic who had served.,-long period, had Is. Is. 6 I-and in some cases ;s - . a day. But those whose .service had been short, but who during that service had lost an arm or a leg, were placed on the miserable allowance which he. had described, and, served rather as a bea eon than as an , encouragement to such as might other wise be induced to embrace the military profession._ On the contrary if for gallant service io he field, or 'for any other exetnplaty conduct, the soldier were fully-a,nd liberally rewarded—if the hope of pro motion wereheld - out to him as the incitement tar courage and pod conduct, it would be the means of getting rid or the odium of his iseesent- treatment,— In comparison,. indeed, with the evils of a soldier's life, the evils of .every other human occupation va nished. All was one gloomy scene, unenlightened by any reflection from the past, or gleam of hope from the future. Still, NV hen in the presence of the enemy, mindful' alone of the honour of his country, the British soldier`, at the cannon's mouth, excited the admiration of all whabeheld Such a man .was surely entitled to the gratitude of the Nation-- such a man was surely capable of _being influenced by motives of the most dignified,- and not of the most disgraceful nature. Heshould not refer to the usage of foreign armies—he would eunfine himself to Great Britain to shew, that flogging was not a necessary ingredient in military disciphee. A most illustrious instance of this truth was to he found era the conduct of-his Highness the Duke of Gloucester, who hevilig contrived to inspire his Officera with sentiments similar to Eris own, bad through the me dium of their vigilance, and by the opei ofet and enlightened military polka., abolished in ids re giwent, for the last four -years, that dreadful and her rid system of punishment. In paying this tribute of gratitude to the Illustrious Duke in question, his gratification was increased by his having, betttß indurined that before his Highness assumed the: OatlZ• mand of that - regiment, it was one moiled by the sevetity of its corporal ptinishment.—Hence a double exempleawas afforded. It was shewn that the men had not been mended by the former seve-. rity, but that by the latter mildness , they had beer* reclaimed. This regiment, aad particularly one battalion of it which was in Portugal, had so distin guished itself, that on a late manic:holy occasion, when Lord Wellington found, it expedient to order two of the soldiers of his army to be shot, 'he gate out in the General Orders, that it'svits not necessary that that particular battalion of. Guards should attend the execution, as they had uiriformly shewn by their condua, that they did not stand in needed . any such , example. • That his ideas on this subjed were not fanciful —that he did not stand alone in opinion upon it, was evident. He had already quoted the published authority of several General Officers of high professional reputation. He understood also. that the Commander-in-Chief elisaperoved of the present praaice. He had no hesitation in saying (al though he had no precise authority for it) that ,Lord Moiraoonsideredtioggingas uninanly. Lord Hutchits was decidedly hostile to it. He had Very little doubt ,also, from all that he had heard of Lord Welling ton, that Lord Wellington was as anxious as any man to raise the mural character of his suldiets by gotting rid of this disgrace ; atiO indeed he had beets told by officers -who had served several years its Lord Wellington's regiment in India, Abet they scarcely recollected an instance of any corporal pu nishment having been inflicted in that regimeto; Another officer of distinguished character, Genera' Money, had declared his opinion very explicitly oa the subject. begged leave to elet:ud He had been told by Ge r r a nia - ti e O efrloi fl iii i ng ee tt_ Officer', , accusationand here hehimselfi i of wards Foreigners, and• particularly towards Get aa n t they on were ttie eat c()i 7l: (I n t ni theynrhospital I :t a d % herd d ly to the mode to which n oanf6d Officers r e esn i i ib 7i j dl e4t ai e ,idi c o t odn iu the British service.) appeared to them to be the last punishment necessary in the Bii tlitsi,dbies army,afforded becausee means the possession oeststei ng r o ot of f the West any class of men ,di-graceful t o t h at artily, which no oilier melancholycountry enjoyed. The flogging system had frequently ef 'ea apparent. been . men who destroyed ahem selves rather than undergo the punishment. No had us u ted r:de i rg u o ia n it de bec h n ad w e e v i er i said d te t r i ac ia a t r i d i s ie b e e a e t n , fit ed n w r b e i e 7 h t‘ t s :a t , o r o i r l s sp n oile e. d xeco a e.s g s v o Ne d o s p o u l t d ) i i b r a m l w a d a e y s a d bad e wertt man would treat any animal in the way in which -human beings at erst . sometimes treated. A h or i e m i ght be whipped till 'he stood still. To him it seemed imperative on the friends of the systerrl to prove that which he was sure they could not p rove , namely, that the army l cou d not do Without i t . Mi litary torture ought not to be equally inadmissible with civil tortuie, Bat the strongest part of the case was, that under oe area—. •