The Sun. — London, England, 1812-02-14 00:00:00

to such a Committee' by -the torsidetationS of the great extent of the case, and the importance of the circumstance o individuals. He apprehended, how ever, - will be boumt, that . Government 'having done all that it 'possibly could to enforce the aiiins of the petltionei-s on the Amelican Government, and havln , j , obtained all than it could for them from ihat Government, without going to war on the subjeti, the pr-titioners would ullic , ately experience it to be ittpracticahi , 10 fix upon s . 4le country the obligation of rayi! , e Itiern the difference bAween the sum adually received, and that which they alleged to be due, . - Mr. BARING did not see the necessity of referring the _Petition to the Committee, .in oraer that the facts alone might be laid on the table of the House. The question night be argued on the fats, as stat ed in tie Hon. Gentleman's speech The CHANCELLOR at the EXCHEQUER observed, that the individuals concerned, wgre desirous rather that the fads should be reported by a Committee of the House. The motion was then agreed to, and a Committee appointed. AMERICA. Mr. WWITBREAD, in rising to make the motion of which he had given notice, said, he might be perhaps allowed to indulge in a sentiment of regret, that on a subject so important as a question_coneern ing tlp situation of this country.witir respect to America, so, few Members should be present. He would, nevertheless,.bring it forward, as, whatever might be the feelings of others on the subject, their conduct should have no effecSupon him, feeling, as he did, that, in submitting that motion to the House, with which it was his intention to conclude (and which Was merely a motion - Ter infortnation), it was a s daisable, that no delay should occur, that not one day should be lost. All parties, both in this country arni , in Atnerica, had professed to deprecate a war between the two countries, and all parties had acknoxledged that - such an event was but too pro bable. The Government of America and the Go vernment of Os country, from the beginning of the conmetciai and diplomatic contest in which the two 'Ck,lllll ies 'were engaged, had uniformly professed to be actuated by the most friendly and conciliatory dispbsitions; but it had unfortunately so turned out; that, professing such feelings," the breach between Atnerica and England had been widened from day to day, till at length it aßeared from the Message of the President of the United States to Congress, that war between the two countries would be the inevit able consequence of -a perseverance in that system on the part of England, which had been acted upon for the last five years. That information which it ;A. as his intention to call for this night was already before the whole world, with the exception of the two Houses of Parliament in this country: It was befote the people of Ei.gland, of France, and of America,: it was before every person who could read a Newspaper, but it had not yet been given to the British Parliament for their information and consi deration. One would be glad to,, know why the Right Honourable Gentleman should now refuse the inforanation he solicited, which, he understood, was to be dynied. When the cOrrtluct of Go vernment on-former occasions had furnished grounds for jealousies, and for suspicions that the business of the State was not well conduded, as had been the case with respect to the operations in the Penin sula, and those of _the expedition to Walchereo, and in various other cases, information, when asked for, had at times been given, and at times refused. When it was refused, it had been stated as a ground for such refusal, that -the production of the papers called for would disclose secrets which could not be made publ c with sifety ; that the granting the re quired information would, in some respect or other, be dangerous, and likely to be felt produdive of in convenience. Sometimes information had been refused, on the ground that it might injure or in]. pede,pending pegociations ; and it had been stated that toreign Governments complained of their cor respondence being published, and were more re ser% ed titan they asaauld otherwise be, from an ap prehension that their letters would be laid-before the t -vet Houses of Parliament. In this case be wished to kuow what ground could be found, to justify a ratusal of the papers called for ? No plea of the mature of any of those which he had enumerated could be urged in the present case. The informa tion for which be called, had already been all dis closed .to the whole world. He would ask for no thieg which was not then on the table of that House, in the two books before him, which had been published by orjer of the American Congress. From reading these he saw great reason to blame the conduct - of those who had conducted the nego tiation pending between this country and America; but he was not able to make a charge against the parties concertted in them, because the papers he called for were not before Parliament, and the House, SS a House, were ignorant of the existence of the publications he had alluded to, and it was still in tended to keep from them that information- he felt It his duty to call for. It had been stated by a Right Hon. Gentleman (and it was wisely -stateu), that' this country could bear- more from America than froth any other Power; but was it not also possi ble for this country to ad with a greater degree of conciliation towards America than to any other ? If what had been said were wise in the first in stance, surely it must follow, that would be wise to ad with a greater disposition to conciliate the Government of. America, than to conciliate the more ancient Goves,nments. The reasons which a recommended such line of policy were obvious; but, so far from such a principle hosing been - ailed upon by his Majesty's Government, their condud bad been marked (as he could show from the papers be required) by the greatest inattention to the Ame s-Can Envoy, jay negleet, amounting to little less titan diplomatic incivility, while the condutt of our Ministers in America, since the recall of Mr. Er skine, had been in a corresponding degree inconci. 'l.:way. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Can ring), who was the colleague of the Right Hun. Gentleman opposite Ole Chancellor. of the Exche quer), at the tone the Orders in Council—those ce lebra.ed or famous Orders, in Council (they might take which 'term they pleased)., were framed, though not in the habit of voting with him (Mr. Wiptbread), or ,with that side of the House on which tie (Mr. Whitbread) usually sat, had never fetdsed papers called for, when it was proved that they had been previously printed by order of the .e.,nretican Government. He (Mr. Canning) pre owned, as he (Mr. Whitbread) presumed, that it troblci be to in - suit that Douse, to refuse that -in formation which Was before every body &se, and therefore never gave opposition to such a motion. The papers before the House at present came down to the end of Mr. Erskine's mission. To that Gen tleman had succeeded as Ambassador to America Mr. Jackson, who had not carried on the negocia s Lions between the two countries in such a manner as to conciliate America. So far from' it, after he had been there a short time, an open rupture broke out,-laid‘the recall of that Minister wA the conse qtfance. He would not now move for the corres pondence betweea Mr. Jackson andathe American Government, as that business was gone by, and he had no wish to revive it, as to recall it to merat,ore could do no good. To Mr. Jackson, after a Tang lime, succeeded Mr. Forster. The mission of Mr. Forster had commenced inauspiciously, and in pro secuting it, he had not given things an auspicious turn ; and it had at length terminated most unfor tunately for both countries. „He felt himself com pelled to say that ,neither the ihstrudions nor the conduct of Mr. Forster had had the effed long de sired; that of conciliating America. There was an other correspondence of which lie had to speak, he meant the correspondence between the Marquis of Wellesley and Mr. Pink ney: That correspondence had commenced in January, 1809, and terminated, in February, last year, on Mr. Pinkney's quilting the country. Mr. Pinkney was a man of sound sense, and had uniformly appeared to be actuated by a'sincere desire to conciliate the Government of this country. He had always approaelted Ministers with- proper diplomatic deference, and with the pro per feelings of'an ned Statesman. Firm to his purpose, yet conciliating in his 'manner, he had never failed in point of time. A want orpunatual ity was in no instance to be charged to him, and the mode -in which he had endeavoured to accomplish the object of his mission was in every respect en titled to praise. But he was very much afraid that Mr. Pinkney had not been treated with the same punctilious respect which had marked the deport ment of that Gentleman, towards the English Mini s!ers. At theme the correspondence between the Marquis Wellesley and Mr. Pinkney commenced, it was known that there was a ga eat soreness-in Ame rica, in' consequence of l what had occurred in the Course of the mission of Mr. Jackson. The first letter which Mr. Pinkney had occasion to write to Lord Wellesley, was on the case of America, with a reference to the occurrences alluded to. On the subjed_of the pending riegociations, it was kutiara there was a remarkable sensibility in Amerie'l as to the parties by whom they were to be conducted.— After the termination of Mr. Erskine's mission, and - the unfortunate (as it proved substitution of Mr. `Jackson, it might have been h ed that the English Government would have been particularly careful that eo want of decorum should give a new orfence. What was the conduct of Ministers ? Why on the 2d January, 1809, Mr.Pinkney•wrote on the subject of appointing a new Minister to America, and to this letter-no answer was given by the English Go vernment till the 14th March. On this subject Mr. Pinkney, in his dispatches, had only observed, 'a I was prepared to expect some delay, but I - did not expect a delay like this.'' Lord Wellesley gave an answer on this subject on tie • 14th of March. On the . 15th, Mr. Pinkney wrote' again to Lett! - Wellesley on . the subject of the English system of blockade, a subject most interesting to Atnericd. After waiting more than a fortnight, an answer was urned to this on the 2d of the folloWing month. Oa the, 30th of April, he (Mr. Pinkney) wrote again on the subject of the Berlin and Milan De crees, but to this letter he received no answer. On the 3d of May, Mr. Pinkney wrote to Lord Wel lesley, complaining of the practice of forging ships' papers in London, and of making an open traffic of them. A traffic more infamous and more disho nourable could noz exist, and consequently, a more serious and a more severe charge could not be made against any Government. Yet, notwithstanding all this, to Mr. Pinkney's communication on the subject no answer was returned. On the 23d of June, Mr. Pinkney wrote 'again, referring to his letter of the 304 h of April, on the subject of the Berlin and Milan Decrees, to which no an swer had been returned. To this lefter no an swer was given. On the 7th of July, Mr. Pinks ney wrote again on the subject of the delay in ap pointing a Minister. To this 'letter no official an swer was returned. A personal‘caminunication as, it was called, (a private note) was all the notice taken of it. On the Bth of * August, Mr. Pinkney wrote again, referring to his (Mr. P.'s) letter of the 30th of April and 23d of June, on the subject of the Berlin and Milan D:crees, requesting an answer, but to this letter also no answer was returned: On the 23J July he wrote again; and again no answer was returned.' On the 25th August he wrote again on the subject of the revocation of the Berlin and Milan Decrees, and demanding an answer. Tb this letter an answer was returned on the 31st of the same month. On the 15th September he wrote again to Lord Wellesley, on the subject of the blockade ' of Elsineur by Sir James Saumarez, and on thecir cutnstance of Ametican seamen having been taken out of certain vessels. On December 6, he re ceived an answer to this letter, as far as it re lated to the blockade, saying nothing on the sub ject of American seamen taken out of their ves sels. With Respect to them nothing appeared to 'have been done by Government, but they were after wards released by the Admiralty. Nothing bad ever excited his surprise so much as the conduct -of Ministers at this period of the negociation. It was known to the whole world that one of the most difficult points to be adjusted between Great Britain and America, was that relating to the seizure of American seamen. Surely - then, when an oppor tunity °tiered of doing that which Atner wished, and which - Ministers admitted to be no more than justice, it might have been expected that they would eagerly embrace it with a view of conciliating Ame rica. This might surely have been eapealed from a Minister, who knew how fatal to this country a rupture with America must prove. This, how ever, was not done, though, by the bye, Mr. Pinkney was apprized of the Circumstance of the American claims being admitted to be just, yet, in stead of eagerly embracing such an opportunity to conciliate, an answer was coldly and reluttantly given, and the . Secretary of State for the Foreign- Department could not trouble himself toaput pen to paper on the subject, till a very considerable pe_ riod had elapsed. On the twenty-first day of Sep_ teraer, Viuliney wroto again, referring to ails letters of the'ieth April, 3d,Suree, and iith A u gUste 'on the subjea of the Berlin, and Milan 'De tree t. and asking an answer. To this no satiSfaelory answer vas given. Letters dated December 3ih and . Decemer 10th were written, and these leading to -no satisfactory result, Mr. Pinckney demanded his audience of leave. A passage in the speech of the Prince Regent to Parliament, which appeared at a period not very remote from the last alluded to on the subject of America, raised new hopes of an ami cable termination of the pending negoicatiorfs. Tire paragraph, though of itself very equivocal, merely. stated that discussions were going on, and that every disposition ekisted to conciliate America, consistently with the honour and interests of,this country, raised great hopes that the negociat:ron was going on in a way from which there was every reason no hope the issue would be favourable ; no such thing : at that time,Mr. Pinkney had demanded his audience of leave, and the negociations in "Arvierica were at. an ent.L The negociations had at flee period terniinated, and they were resumed, and not continued, when - Mr. Forster was sent from this country. After this, little appeared to have been done towards effe6ting the important object which both Governments pro fessed to have in view, from the correspondence between Mr. Foster and the American Govern ment, which was then on the table before him. It bad been hoped when Nit - . Foster was sent out, that he, had new instructions, but on his anival in America, it was hound that he-only went eo 'offer , what had been previously iejeaed ; thus his mis .s;en was only preduaive of disapppointment. He purposely abstained from a discussion of the policy of the Orders in Council. Whether they were good ,or bad, or whether the Berlin and Milan Decrees were or were not repealed, were other questions which would in a few days be brought before the House'by an Honourable Friend of his, vt hen he hoped an attendance more proportionate to the ire. porrance of the subjea Would be given. He would confine himself to asking for that whictc was neces sary to the House, preparatory to their entering on the subje6t which his Honourable_ Friend would bring forward. -He only called for that w Inch was _necessary to a decision, which, as he thought, must soon be formed on Ministers who, in his opinion, had brought this country to the verge of a war with America. The last letter which had passed between.. Mr. -Forster and Mr. Monroe, 'which' had been. pub. • lished was dated October 31, I 8 1 1, and he wished to ask for nothing which had not been print,ed. The message of the President was sent to Congress on the eth of November following, and on the loth a Cemmittee on Foreign Relations made a report of an unfavourable nature for this country, and !bete was no doubt but it was the feeling of America that the mission of Mr. Forster had been totally ineffec• tual, and had in point of 'feet' terminated. Under these circumstances, his humble motion would:only call for what had here already been made public. He was sorry to say it, but the correspondence be tween the two Governments was so voluminous, and the novelty was.so completely worn off, that to those - who are most deeply interested in the question of peace or war between the two countries, it must be very tiresome to read, and in consequence of that, be was afraid that few 'gave it the attention and consideration which it merited. He did not Mean to throw any reflection on the talents of the corre tpoodents on either side, as when a correspondence had been carried on for years on the same sutijea, it was-totally impossible to make it otherwise than - palling. On the important question of peace or war with America, the House was net called upon to decide that night ; he only called upon them to demand that infortnati on ,which could alone enable, them to decide on that great questidn. They could not properly decide on it without having the papers for which he called to refer to on their table. How e , ever liole might befell on this subject in that House, outjif doors - its importance was well known, and no small interest was taken even in the success of the motion - he was about to make. Whether England had-aced unjustly towards America, or whether Ame rica had acted unjustly towards England, -whether blame ought to be thro n upon France, or upon England, or upon America, he did not call upon them to decide. Whatever was really the case; and whether the Orders in Council were wise or unwise; whether.they had been acted up to, or whether to ad up to them had been found impracticable, were things which he could not call in question ; but of this, he believed, no one could doubt; that great commercial distress had been experienced, and that it the market of America were to be thrown open to us, •it would be felt to be a great and signal bless ing. War with America, it was equally obvious, would be a great evil : and war once commenced, no man could tell what might follow. It might be well for us to talk about putting down America, _of inflicting chastisement, &c. as if it .was Mahe power of England to annihilate her : we might talk this well, but we could not put America down. She was there where,we had Placed her ; it was not in the power of England to annihilate her, and it was therefore the interest of England to be her friend. He was not certain that the time was not gone by • for conciliating America, and had hp spoke eight arid forty hocrs sooner, he might have been inclined to have pronounced it altogether past. He had had fears that the Constitution frigate, which went front France in the course of the last month, had carried that with her. which might prove fatal, to this coun try. Within the last twenty-four hours new ai ri vals had partly removed such apprehensioesr The aft spoken of as likely to pass, admitting English manufactures which had 'been purchased tona fide befose February 1, 1811, had given the people of this country great hopes of relict, as it was felt that aging on the false sw earing system noticed by M. Pinkney, almost any quantity of. goods might be sworn into America. The joy, however,' expressed at this prospeat of an opening market, sufficiently proved how great a blessing such a change would be considered. The Orders in Council had disap , pointed those by whom they were framed, and there was hardly a merchant to be found who did not ;om plaint of their operation. On this question, however, he did not call upon the House to decide, but• he called upon them over and over again to put them 'selves in possession of that information which he had endeavoured ro shew was so necessary. He could opt but admit that with him America was . extremely popular. He. looked back to that con; .tesr in vs hick she had been engaged with this coun try, with reverence and admiration for America: That contest had • terminated as all such corittits should terminate. He felt no jealousy of the pro. 'openly of America, convinced as he was, that nroper managenient here, th- more she flourished, the more tk*ould thii cow try flourish. He had seers nothing; after all,that had b -said,- that could be looked upon as injustice on the p.irt of Amrrica. He had heard a very great . outcry against her in justice, but heitad Seen none of it. He had heard •it trumpeted forth long ago, that; America wal enaged in secret hostility against this country, but he did not believe it. He believed that Ame rica, placed in the extraordinary sit!la!ion in whichshe had stood, that of the only in th.t. world, had done as every other pots er would, had endeav o ur.: ed to-avail herself of all the advantages of her situa:: lion. He thouOit- that England had been u 'just America, and had required that of her which it wai• impossible for her to achieve. 'He thought France had anted unjustly to her, •and requ'red that of het it was impossible she could achieve. Placed in this Situat!on, she endeavoured, as long as she could, to -prec.erve her independence by defensive operations. The Non-Importation A 8 had tiled been enaEled, and afterwards the Non-Inter course A. In the measures she had . adopter;; it did not appear to him that there was: partiality towards France or injustice towardi England, but he thought the Government of France had beeri - wise enough to recede from their measures, and thus gained advantages which we denied ourselvei. TheJaill spoken of as Itkely to paSs, would, he thought; if passA, be likely to gite umbrage to France, and it was the duty of the English Government to en deavour, by conciliation, to ay.il themselves of any difference that might arise ,between America and ,France. - He did know that any thing that he could say in addition to v, hat he had offered would be likely to influence the House more than what he had already advanced, he should therefote conclude, and whatever might be the fate of this motion, he should feel the satisfaction which had consoled him on other occasions, however be had failed of gain ing the tbrat he had- in view, that satisfatlion aris ing Iron a conscientiousness of having discharged his duty. He concluded by moving-, 4 _ 4 That an Address be presented to his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, pra)ing that he would he pleased ro or der copies of all'the correspondence which had taken place he-' tweets his Majesty's Ptincipal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the American Minister, or Charge d'Affaires re, sident in England. from fan. 1, a to, up to the latest period, together with all documents referred to its that correspend- as also copies of the correspondence between Mr. Fors ter and Mr. Munroe, together with the documents referred to therein." Mr. STEgHEN agreed with-the Hon. Gentleman, - that it. would not be wise to discuss the Orders iu Council at that time; but while he was glad that he had, delivered him frbm the necessity of entering, into the question of their justice. andpolicy, tee was' sorry that he should have thought it not incoesist. ; ent to jump from the question, to the general eon.. elusion that the conduct of the English Goveinment towards America was wrong. From this untair statement (he would call it so) of t-he Horioutable Gentleman, he felt himself entangled in 'a dilemma; If he went into the policy and the justice of the Or ders of Council, and of the conduct of the Englis:4 Government, towards America, he should be ac cused of provoking, a kdiscussion, which it W'l 4 desirable to avoid ; while, on the other hand, if he did not go into them, it was imeoss;ble to do justice to what he believed to be the strong est ease that ever one country had against ane other. He would take whet he thought the safer course, and not enter into the evidence. He wouia not enter upon it, because he hoped they would he' delivered from the necessity of imparting ,to that Rouse what had passed on so delicate a subject. With this feeliug 'he should content hinvseli With general assertion,- as. the Honourable Gentleman had done, and lie would declare that there never was a charge more unfounded than that which they had just heard, of the conduel of Phis country tieing unjust towards America. On the contrary', nothing but the strongest aversion to a war could justify the English Government in tire siroog anxiety they had evinced, and the almost humiliat ing forbearance which had marked their condud throughout the negociations, to avoid that which the Honourable Gentleman had stated, but which he (Mr. Stephen) did not feel would be so fatal to this country, He questioned not w Nether we would go to war -with America, but whet het or net America would go to war with us. On this subie 6l he did not wishdo speak, as its discussion cooks lead, to nothing ol good ; but if the Honourable Geotle man would force the question to be agitated, as he could if he pleased, he (Mr. Stephen) would pledge himself to be there, and to follow him throngh the whole subjed: Till then, to what had been ad vanced, he should only oppose a general negative- The Orders in Council were not unj.ist, nor even. ,impolitic, and he denied that the people of Awe' rica, or the merchants of this country looked up- 01 them as havieg been so injurious to trade as they had been said to be., If they did do so, they must have forgotten all that 'had passed in that - H' use on the subject, and go in the face of evidence which proved to demonstration that such was not the fa'ot , With respea what had been said of t4„4 ;rower ,of this country to annihilate America, lie i,venloi ask the Honourable Gentleman where in that flouSc he could find it e.sected that England could or would annihilate Amorica ? He knew pretty well the serm timents of many of the Gentlemen who sat inetlbet House, and he,knew of but one feeling on the silt) jea—an earnest desire to avoid a rupture. Wheti the possible annihilation of America, in the event of a war, W4S contemplated, it was only from an idea of the resistance that America would make herself, to the measures of its own Government, if placed in such a situation. He was, however, far from think- . ing with the Hon. Gentleman, that the more Attlee rica flourished; the more this country- must necessa rily flourish. If, for instance, America got all 04 carrying, and all the coasting trade of France, to lend . the manufattures both of the new and old world, it was to him a .paradox how the prosperity of America could tend to that of England. He thought, it wits not very wise nor very politic in: the Hon. Gentleman to speak of the peVjkiry and fraud which might prods by the measure tiOW in contemplation in America, as resulting from • the Orders in Council. }Vhere• those perjuries and frauds u ere omit. praelisd, was whew the Orders in Council did not exist. The Honourable Gentleman forgot the partial repeal 'of the Orders in Council, and -4)vedooked the circunh. stance of that perjury Which he (Mr. S.) deplored as much as any man could, being most prevalent in the Baltic, and in the trade with those placei which were relieved from the operation of the Orders ice