The Sun. — London, England, 1846-07-21 00:00:00

'~-.~ INIPERTAL PAIILIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, July 20. The r. , ot c_ , HAFTESBURY, in the aUsence • Of the '4°:(l Chancellor to , .ik his seat on the Woolsa at a Quarter to Five (,'Clock. ut )ll essages f rom t h e C ommons brought up severa l Bil ls, ^tneh were read a first time. Lord REDESDALE prented 16 petitions, signed 03i `JO s p ter 0 9 e rsons, complaining of the break of gauge at ue e. , GL ASGOIV TERMINI BILL. t‘i:'ru. COLCHESTER moved that this Bill be riad a -QM tune. rhe E arl of RADNOR mov.l as an amendment iha thethird reAing be postponed for a few days. rl t A i vv r ter a few words from Lord C OLCHESTER an d t h e - A of S HAFTESBURY, that m e"aversation ensued, when a compl a i n t b e i ng atle thera was nothing going on, h e Earl of SHAFTFSBURY and Lord BEAUMONT acted that there was a great deal going on. syv ea r e ti d. OßOUGHAM thought the House ought to be the ar' Ranixon and Lord BE AU3IONT ex pl a i ne d t h at 1 1 : 3 e l . l tla a motio n f or t h e adjournment of the debate. thr" B ROUGHAM thought that ther e was no h arm adjournment. 7o e ll t he moti o n b e i ng put t h e t hi r d read i ng was ad -14 I • ill Th ursday night. tI'USAL OF SITES FOR THE FREEhe w Th e A C HU LIMES. larqui s o f BREADALBANE gave notice that )4,,n he shoutlentrused with several poitions en this suljeot, i,",d present to-morrow. e' 4 OI)RIC OF ST. ASAI ' II AND BANGOR. th e a d PO A . 'S ros e t o p resent severa l petitions against te...eehsolidation of these tw o sees , an d h e beggecileave Vve that th e pet i t i ons lie on the table. to u e, NOBLE EARL, then moved the sec )nd read th'is t,he St. As a ph an d B angor Bi lls. In making t lob eeri.— state' he sho u ld re f ra i n f rom enter i ng i nto very hflents. He had addressed their Lordships an this subject to pass any other subjects which la;att ne diate relevance to the matter in hand. Their . is 7, a stii Ps were aware t h at i n 1834 a Commission vi as eii%lll4-~ fo r ascertaining the po s iti on o f th e E t a bli s h e d hisstell. In the report of that Co mm i ss i on th ere i ' ai "a lit ' o fiosition to f oun d a bi s h o p r i c o f M anc h ester, fi sh is bishopric was to be supported by the consolida tili; the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. But to effect oiela it Was necessary t o h o ld ou t some inducement to their rights. Th at i n d ucement was the formation Chet 4 b6IIO PrIC i n t h e r i ch and populous agricultural diss th, s°f La ncashire. The Bishops of these sees were, in a lit e xtrem e a popular, and it was necessary to hold 1 ) 414, 8°111 e bonus to the inhabitants of the princie asd " and that bonus was the advtage . h tlietii4st Mentioned, that of providing spiritual su eu li r e i d s : lit i ,:, for a district but very inefficiently p the No ha ppy he had the opportunity of appealing p to 'earned ( Ie Marquis (Lansdowne) and the Noble and is Lord on the Woolsack to do justice to the couns 4eitqa t his matter. He appealed to the Noble Marquis te "et, if the present were a case in private life, if rtai a tar os!, Property had come into his power, he vvoul,l lien to appropriate that per to the purpose for i he had received it? He nad a like appeal to i th ie e 11,„ 'e and Learned Lord on the 1 I h ' ',..ed !e that considering the poverty of the country, aCol h these two sees were, their Lordships would His I (I'l . in noort of what 1 1 . - w the Bill to pass. ..10r b up, sr . , , said, referred their Lordships to a petiti on preEent ,d , 'heir Loraship s ' House from people in one of the ) a ° eeses. lie w ou ld re f er to the petiti o ns which had b een 1111'4nted ageinst the union of ttiese trvo sees in proof of e fe eli a h . h -) • v iled in the principality on the 4 415 . n,, wic ii e a ata, l ' e t• He would refer al: oto those which had been ki er iteee faitn Gloucest, r, hire, f rom 1 ssex, and from Ilie t : to show the general feeling of the country. 1 , slit subject to which he was about - to allude, because he th„ 'T i ?os , ?d to a Noble Friend of his, who is an advocatefr l attea' a u ell, and who was ready to prescribe a course which ts a r mere efficient than his own fur the support of that t ale k - r:( Hear)—he felt that he (E..rl Powis) could not ob tatielaa hearing on this subject, for he knew how the cha • Ilia, 'A that Noble Lord and his infiu rice would override any- I 'lliChich he had to assert. Yet, with deference to that trisea,' he still felt it eecessary to urge , the h a td irs which he held, and the opinions wale d i t " ta ' , e , ll .fOunded upon them.. His Noble Friend had e ' opinion of the Archbishop of York, the Lord Ha igatle,',aud another Noble Friend, to whom he would not 4%!..evuathe would venture to assert, its those Noble Lords tri . nkt ueen more decidedly wrong haa they were on the 'kh (''Ns ion He had thought it necessary to say this ! li att ' Ile ttus . a * Of h . es knowing the weight which attached . to the opt tki hn ,ts Noble Friend, and the weight . by which :'at,' be supported,he was pateicu'arly anxious respect -4 tha?Posittei; which to be offered to this Bill. Yet, from ate Ave t " l en, place, he believed that neither their Lordships .e °t aer House of P ar li amen t would be over tender on alte " 4 11 ‘lO ~g of an Act of Parli amen t. Th e A c t t o which he Vie elect °lie passed only forty-nine years ago, which was on eterellei; t!ie greatest interest, and which had for its object - "get:, ' Akin ° f the Church. But parties had materially te .• Rs • ee 9sat time. . (From this_ po tl int his Lordship Ira hiloaedible that it was perfectly . impossible to lea,.."tela e l , observations with anything k curacy.) th seeted h aord read a long extract from on . e h o e f th a e e petitions e et • Y him at an early part of the evening, showing that Ntast e ieii,ent discharge of the duties of the diocesan must be ll:I'll affected by the union of the two sees. His Lordship T he a - 1 k 7,, by moving the second reading of the Bill. a ta mela - it'lleis fL AN SDOWNE said he would state the n 't tl4 W4ieh induced him to resist the Noble Earl's motion. aette, same he felt a difficulty, a difficulty however alto a-Neetiktis,aing from the familiarity of their Lordships with the t) bie P . r ie would enter therefore upon it very briefly. The Nolld 0 :earl had said it would be necessary for him to state the date 5 11841 of the Commission issued on this question. In ne k a t'der the administration of Sir Robert roenel wased , 111 ,4 ..u ,ble Duke ( a a C nir m co i nition of Wellington), ~'ve ci t , to inquire into the state to its improvement. (he 4:4 tahlished Church, with a view to That they were 11 01,P r inei pies of that 21 Par ed to recommend Commission anyad . ditional bishops for . England. Il e ' hat those sect should be united where it was possible to h so -without disadvantage to the Church. 3J, in recommended a new distribution of lands. When, t'refore, their Lordships gave their assent to that t 4titt, they gave th e i r assent to all its recom mendations. The N e t bishop o f E ng l and, and the metropolitan of that city, akte theac sanction to it, and, therefore, the term spoliation lf O at at all applicable to its recommendation, for tit of thi s sort were contemplated, the 0 44 . t never would have had the sanction of those high eccie to, „I"4 dignitaries, who, it would be admitted, had no desire 4 r4tiraii. the usefulness or diminish the power of . the 1 4 4 4 hed Church in this country. Their recommendations a ss to a certain extent, carried out since 1835, t jet. up to the year 1843, his Noble Friend las t % ' a _ Powis) had never thought . proper ao Ittsit."o consideration of their recommendations before the a a eti t4 .% of their L or d s hi ps . Th e principality of Wales . 1 4,2 gained by the recommendations of the commission. Ss rll eipalit of Wales had not objected to receive the bene lt ietatferredY by the commission, and he thought 111 , 0 1, 4 , - ;_ 4 !Y too bad, that now they had receive.' aefe s a'attnum of the gifts of the commission they should S e t to be affected by the other reforms, which, though they 91 ?alle 4 Pear to diminish the number of prelates in that ran ltotaolt would, in the opinion of a great number . of prelates, fte st ,aer t i t i e ,to a very great extent the general . interests of h ' e se l ., tOroughout the country. He maintained that e d the o ,t 1 seodations of the Commission would ten _ , tit tl ,; ) the episcopal jurisdiction of the church. The 'itli -„'lsioners saw great masses of the people i l siit a t - ,.; a ll adequate assistance from the Church ; and, in - se t - a Meet that state of things, measures like the one before to Niderationof the House were proposed to be adopted 14lato provide Bisht s for - Lancashire and Yorkshire. LN1:47'1146e of Ili on iP has been created, and successfully ad IC The partier put the wants and the revenues together . ascih ea Create.' a new bishoprics . If any of their Lordships %i t tal. as doubtless many of them had, the number of towns tilllls Were to be thrown together, if they had contemplated t `''Ptllation of those towns, they would be convinced . ta e Co' C ommissioners lad done their duty in consoli tate ° tinder on; spiritual jurisdiction, the inhab:- , ialliaOf this a'a • a which combined the most qk -",_'' districts l' of rie Yorkshire and Lancashire. See- Enofese circumstances, he thought that the Church r od Riand would do wisely in meeting the necessity ltdorir u vide for thi s di str i ct some safe means by which the t ts % ;"7 and the religion of the district might be secured. %ikti*; °l ald rest hi s claims on this grou n d ; an d a ll ow i ng that, i n a - 0 4 importanc e , thi s was a f i rst-rate consideration, yet, Ilie w afth he would admit, that it was an evil that . thesesees ttt a b i `! be suppressed, and yet still he must asseit that t the as S s h 'sbnient of the see of Manchester, calculated ns a! ely l m w ore 110 Ply a large constituency would be nf i h r"tlanee • but which was contained nua w e within the 1/ tvite of the of St. Asaph and Bangor. But further than lk‘ B l l't appeared by the returns w hi c h h a d been submitted to ta 4 itiarnent, that the population of the neighbourhood of the V i oeric of Manchester had so increased, that the excess was k /41 d that of the whole of the sees of North Wales by Friend would be sur- N , L e t:isiderable numb th er ii7T a to hear that . wi in . fourteen days evidence had come into 44, tenderedtiireasdtisonwhhehthr it necessary to consider whether new bishops might be created who should Il t ki a'M a seat w in this House, Looking at all these circum alrea. he t h ought that it was this duty to say no to the pro the r ir of his N o bl e F r i en d, an d h e, t h ere f ore, proposed that T h lll he read a second time this day three months. 'tit t t ll el i e s r:krt il sc e : ig o h f t LONDON thought that he could adduce ton s for the support of those sees which had not yet been ton their Lordships , His Lordship thought that some better prepare them fur any change that was 4 °'we ' e)" . it,a to what fell from the Noble Marquis (Lens l',.t? iat Attlitt,tneY should lose no time in establishing the bishop- O a it " I - e" e i te re h was sure their Lordships would all agree r and s • iaa" the re this subject he was of opinion that h mi t e ta see s s ti e l' N en o t r might i a Wales. hi be t for that previous to a vacancy in got for that previous to a vacancy in :Itsssi.f ths 015 Wales. It was true that the funds in the I t l if ° Ga r l ile , Co ranaissioere were not more than 930/. a-year, ; %so u . '" ° 1 the sees inquestion were vacant, there would be a -P PIY th e of ab "ot 2 000' But he thought . that they might s lao ee eaei , , . 9 • bel 44 t Of 1 rat in the hands of the Commissioners to the 11 10 4 R tir a d e ''.:''Ci.l,. a -year, and he was certain of another 1,000/. li t new nis,eoaanaLle within two rt months of this time, so that ta,, , op ed t Lp of Manchester begin with about 5,000 . /. i„ai sterle . e at f this suggestion night e appear practicable with ii! t4l ali ll s ish° P Otr lVlal ve G s O ee ß s se h P o a ped, that if he lived so long, ' 8 rth, . Yet see such asrangements made as would riot make Isatie."/al• necessary tei,- Years from the countr where he had spent so d e ed f ro • The only benefit, he said, his diocese had re t vro arch aen, i n the Commission was the appololme° • , u „ ke °ti t ta ' R ed two trifling augmentations. The . feeling s tiller a sh' edi s e r 4 .. tsar e e a 'e was in favour of the Bill laid on their Lord i,i L az a h .ny the Noble Lord (Powis). These . sees were very is: g oat's 4 / I °O been constituted, perhaps, previous to the arch- O t t sh e ° I . Dublin, and the people were very desirous that .1(31104 R ev d he maintained. He agreed, with others of his as Ali e`a Friends, that the bishopric of Manchester w i t k hitlvert necessary anti very desirable,. and he thought se e d t u een delayed toe long,. having been intro ° their Lordships' attention about . ten ye . ars , ls: 41 0e, " : 11 h a s hopeful, whatever might be their Lord hips 401 1 , it5.. _ t means might yet be found , to pre , er in 14‘Otaa,t'e'rsees disunited, and also to found thebishopric ta t44 ll h ' He opposed their union not frem any . interest he f eel a " in it, but Irons a consideration of the interests o Q i- ar e a r ;,,an_d of the country. 'tey were v lAN said he had no doubt that the whole of the / t 4 L 'ass e o ,`'fe for the retainiue of the two sees ; but if they , w d e er „4atth,. the proposition of the Noble Lord, he did not won 10 '. t he l re 'll°4l d• He found by a return that in the see of Ba d n e - r t , 1 / , ~,e !ee 34 of the aarochial clergy who received j u t n to, , 'le ,•4 ,d r ,s , r a . ri , a pl under 200/.; in St. As ph, 31 under ,n., : 4, h. A . . a o _ , a , O a ; in Bangor the eouri-!it-- ; , .'re 3 : 4 : , ' ~,.,.. ii : sa l c th _ -., 1,11, reel'ilit,l h• teeite l'''' til.ead th e -t, of the Noble Lied was to units the tA o v hr4e_out el the revenues to draw a surplus for the esta • " °i Oa bee of Ilauchester. Lord STANLEY regre!ted that in the discussion this evening he saw nothing to induce him to alter the opinion w'm h ha had before expresser% The question before the Com mission and their Lordships was how the financial incomes of the C.iutch of England and Wales could be so regulated as would pro!wce at y improvement. It was for their Lordships to c,,osider whether they would follow the recom mendations of the Commissinners on that subject or not. His Right Rev. Friend deprecated the taking away of the revenues from the poor people of Wales to establish a see in the rich dis • trict of Manchester. But the real object was altogether con fined to Wales—by tt e union of Bangor and St. Asaph to in crease t'n;reveries of St. A,aph andLlndaff. In proof of this, his Lordship referred to the Order in Council. There was another qu , stion, which had nothing to do with finance; it had altogether to do with the augmentatioe of bishops. He denied ever having expres-ed any wish for the reduction, or any oppo sition to the augmentation of the number of bishops. He had ceded their Lurdships' attention to the d ffieulties with which the question was surrounded. He had su2gested that there were two alternatives open to their Lordships, either to aug ment the temporal power of the church, by augmenting the number of bishops, and introducing them to that House, or Ly augmenting them, and excluding a certain number from that House. There were difficulties, he said, nn that occasion con nected with both; and that he was certain their Lordships would adopt either, only after great deliberation. But he would not trouble their Lord.hips with what had occurred on a former occasion. The fact was, that if Bangor and St. Asaph ' were united to-night, it would be found, judg ing of the two sees by area, benefices, or popu lation, that they would be less than some twenty or twent3 -t out of the rest of the twenty-six dioceses. Exeter, for example, Norwich or Chester w, uid be found almost double, but some others would be ascertained to be seven, eight. and even tenfold greater than the united sees of St. Asaph and Bangor, He confessed he could not, however, con cur in the second reading of the Bill at a time when so little had been ascertained as to the course on eshich that Bill was leading them would end in. The Bishop of SALISBURY could not allow this Bill to be put to the vote without making a few observations. A Noble Lord said that if the rev nues of one of the sees went to the support of the poor benefices in the dioceses, the re suit would be exceedingly advantageous to the relieious in terests of the people. The Right Reverend Prelate in reply t o that went into a comparative statement of the condition of the benefices in St. Asaph and Bangor, with other dioceses, with the view of showing that as far as the value of the benefices, the population and other circumstances, there were no grounds whatever for a different appropriation of the revenues of the Church. He considered that it would be much better if the consideration of the question were postponed to the next session, and he was quite sure if the Noble Earl complied with his suggestion, it would tend very much to promote the interests of the Church. The Bish ;p of NORWICH could tu t agree with the Noble Earl in the Bill he brought forward. He considered, how ever, there ought to be an increase in the number of the bishops; and, for that purpose, wished Manchester to have a prelate ; but, taking the circumstances of the dioceses in ques tion into consideration, he must vote against the Noble Earl's measure. Earl GREY said that the happiest results had followed the carrying out the recommendations of the Church Commission, and he sincerely believed that the improved tone of public opinion in regard to the Church was entirely to. be attributed to the reforms suggested by, that Commission. If their Lord ships admitted the applicability of the Noble Earl's proposition with regard to Wales, they would have to extend its applica tion to other places, and by degrees and detail break down and destroy the recommendations of the Ecclesiastical Commission, the measure passed a few years ago by Parliament, and nullify all the excellent improvements which had been made. He et as by no means disposed to deny that an increase of bishops would be advantageous, but let them make that increase in such a manner as to make it most available for the general efficiency of the whole church. Was there any proof before them that if they were to have 27 instead of 26 Bishops, the best mode to do that was by keeping the dioceses of St. Asaph and Bangor separate ? Whether they looked to the ex tent of the territory— the number of benefices—or the amount of the population of these dioceses, it would be seen that they steed in less need of the episcopal superintendence of two Bishops than other dioceses in England. He said there was another question which ought to be considered before they committed themselves to any alteration—that was, the want of areclatal clergy throughout the kingdom. The want was great, and admitted on all hands ; but he said, if he was right, and if they adopted the Bill on the table. they would strike directly at the possibility of that improvement. The Noble Earl then alluded to the report of the Church Commission, which, after referring to the want of clergy, chapels, and churches, and the means of sheir support, stated that, of all the evils connected with the Establishment, this evil—the want of clergy, and the means of their support—was the greatest and the mitt itrgt.nt ; but that, notwithstanding this urgency, all that could be dove: to meet it was to endea vour to diminish it gradually. On that account the Noble Earl did not agree with those who in such circumstances wished to augment the number of bishops. Good as that pro position per se might be, and even if the necessity of a particular bishopric were made out, he yet could not adopt the Bill, so long as there existed a more pressing evil within the church establishment. He opposed the Bill, therefore, purely on the ground on which he stood when he sought to improve the efficiency of the church. But there was one other point on which he wished to animadvert. The union of the two sees was resisted by a Reverend Prelate, on the ground that these sees were ancient. Now he begged to caution their Lordships against a feeling, little other than superstitious, which w , s attached to things that had become consecrated by time, and sacred ; a feeling which, if they should follow it, might lead them to a conclusion which others had arrived at in the same way, that there was but one true Church, and that the Church of Rome, and that the Episcopal Church was schismatical and altogether in error. He therefore opposed the present Bill. Lord ELDON, in supporting the Bill, said he would regret to preclude any party from b:rnefits which they would otherwise have received ; and if it did so, when the Bill went into com mittee, if Noble Lords allowed it to go there, he would not resist any clause which might be inserted to preserve those benefits for them. He wished, however, that it should be remarked hat the Noble Earl ha:, brought forward the Bill for one object and one alone, disjoined from any larger views of state affairs, with which he thought it ought not to be mixed up. The Bishop of OXFORD begged their Lordships would bear with him while he addressed them very briefly. He wished to address them the more, after heating the speech of the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne), who had grounded his opposi tion on entirely different reasons than those asserted by him on former occasions. The Noble Marquis sheltered himself under the Commission, and yet ho urged the withdrawal of the revenues of the Bishops, and the application of them to the pa rochial clergy ; urging them, therefore, to do that which was repugnant to the very spirit of the Commission. The Marquis urged his opposition to the Bill from the constitution of the Commission ; that in it were the Primate of all England, the Primate of York, and the Bishop of London, whose character and judgment gave it weight. But he (the Bishop of Oxford) said they ought to look at the details ; one Pri mate was absent, another Primate would vote in favour of the Bill, and the Bishop of London had delivered a speech in support of it. Thus, those who had been egainst it, after deliberation, came round and supported the opposite opinion ; that fact, too, bore against the argument that had been drawn from the recom mendation of the Commissioners in their report. The ques. tion, now being clear and open, was—should there never be an augmentation of English Bishops ? He held an opinion di rectly opposite to those that had been expressed—that where a great whole, a great institution needed reform of abuses, that that could not be done by the expression of something merely abstract, but that the amendment and reform must be attained by immediately removing the abuses and evils. It had been acknowledged that the founding of a see at Manchester was necessary ; he contended then that this was the duty of their Lordships. As to the whole number of Bishops, he referred their Lordships to the relative numbers that were in France before and after the Revolution ; in Spain and in Greece ; and to those members which Latimer, and the early English Prelates, thought ought to he in kingdom of England ; which he considered answer smiicietit to some arguments that had been used against the Bill. For the sake of the common truth which they held together, he trusted their Lordships would concur in support ing the Bill of the Noble Earl. He begged to apologise for having so long taken up their Lordships' attention. The Earl of FOWIS replied. . _ . . . . . . Their Lordships then diiided, when there appeared— For the Bill, content 3B Not content . M jority for the second reading The Marquis f LANSDOWNE said that it was not hs in tention to give any Further opposition to the measure, but to leave the Noble Earl to take his own coui se. He did not, however, alter the opinions vihich he entertained. 't heir Lordships then adjourned at Half-past Ten. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Ju'y 20. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o'clock. THE NEW MINISTRY. Mr. C. BULLER was introduced by Colonel Fox and Captain Mangles, and took the oaths and his seat for L6keard. Colonel A wsorr was introduced by Viscount Ebrington and Mr. Tufnell, and took the oaths and his seat for South Staffordshire. Mr. O'CONNELL entered the House shortly after four o'cl..ck, and took his seat on the Ministerial benches. .es 4b... >tags And at the the true ole L . 11 0 .; hat l le le dross • b e etrop ells 3 be: i yor to" I to t Olt reg i tlsr ricu kar l 9 . situi oa that. Or furie .1 10 ' tell. .1 0 not th ° area sir e is to, the atu 45 0 . e of th e , roar, an d elbraA time ' EIV S' m Satyr' Minn - spa mi nere,_ o ye to 6 Mi Rites the fi t° ilopin nart 1 rs to ry,in )e true of I decline' trs, to g o ' specttlet o t be, as!' be put ill to of th e ) ss. P er )00 qt tar' iarves•t >cks vr:th Anothe r The ;or h-day. r at 9 5 / 5 )W.TA ° r the Mr he Sugar duced to i. jedis• 4ock hes a The n Metel er Cerlo - Cents' Le Date, rated Couttt ,el Saturday We hef the CO'- CLoSle ritiCw 06 96 95* 9"o* 1014 2624 :Loge I'RICso, 24% 121 f. ---6 251 - • ST 971 g 4 :LOW? r111"'- 416 • 36 16g 16 2 tog THE SUN, LONDON. TUIi , S)OAy MORNING, JULY 2l, 1846. 4th of August, call the attention of the Government to the state of the tobacco duties, with a view to prevent the smuggling which was so extensively carried on in that article. CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL AND SMALL DEBTS BILL. Mr. STEWART gave notice that he would, on Weduesday next, move for a Committee to consider and report on the Charitable Trusts Bill, and of the expediency of giving the Commissioner of the Court of Bankruptcy a power to hear complaints. and to investigate all charges as to the misapplication of trusts, with the. power also to call for all the accounts of charitable trusts, with a view to their investigation. Ile would also put a question to the Secretary for the Home Department whether it was the intention of the Government to push the Small Debts Bill, so that it might pars this session. Sir G. GREY said that it had been already announced that it was the intention of the Government to pass the Bill as soon as possible, and the Noble Lord under whose care it was in the other House, had already fixed as early a day as possible. SIR ROBERT PEEL. At this period Sir Robert Peel entered the House, leaning on a stick ; the Right Hon. Gentleman seems to suffer considerably from the accident which, has befallen him. Ile took his seat. between Sir James Graham and the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Right Hon. Gentleman looks pale and careworn. REGIMENTAL STAFF-OFFICERS. Capt. LAYARD rose to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary-at-War, if it was true, as had been lately mentioned in the military newspapers, that a new war rant for giving an improved retiring allowance to regi mental staff-officers after a certain long full-pay service, had been prepared by Mr. Sidney Herbert, and approved of by Mr. Gottlburn, and which only required the royal sign manual, in order that it might be promulgated to the army ? Mr. F. M AIME said that he found when he came into office that a warrant was drawn up and prepared on the subject, and waited only for the royal sign manual. DEATH FROM FLOGGING IN THE ARMY. Dr. BOWRING, rose pursuant to notice, to inquire of the Secretary-at-War, whether his attention had been called to the case of Frederick White, a private in the 7th Royal Hussars, whose death is reported to have been caused by severe military flogging, and whether any steps have been taken in consequence ? Mr. FOX MAULE said that he was glad that the lion. Member had brought the subject forward. The facts of the case were simply these :—Frederick White, the subject of the Hon. Member's motion, was a private in the 7th Hussars. He had been guilty of one of the grossest acts of military insub ordination of which a soldier could be guilty. While in the performance of his duty he bed struck a non-commissioned officer violently with a heavy poker, and had not the officer perceived the intention of the culprit, he would have received a most severe wound, if not have been killed. He was, however, knocked down by the blow. For this crime he was tried on the 13th of June, by a court m•irt:al, and sentenced to receive the military punish ment of 153 lashes; that sentence was afterwards con firmed by his Grace the Duke of Wellington, and on the 15th of June the sentence was carried into effect. And he might state the course which was purstud in the army with respect to soldiers sentenced to be flogged ; it was this :—whenever a soldier was sentenced to receive punishment by court-martial a certificate, signed by the surgeon of the regiment, was sent to the War- office, stating that the person was in a fair state to undergo punishment, so that it might not be carried into effect unless he were in a proper state of health. On the 15th of June, as he had stated, the punishment was carried into effect ; and so far from any interference having taken place by the surgeon of the regiment by de siring the man to be t; ken down, and that the commanding officer bad refused to do so, he begged distinctly to state that there was no interference either on the part of the surgeon or commanding officer. After receiving punishment the man was taken to the hospital in the usual way, where he was visited, according to the practice in the army, by the commanding officer every day. After remaining in the hospital some time he was reported convalescent, and so far recovered as to have been ac tively engaged in " fatigue duties." Ile was visited by the surgeon and commanding officer, who stated that in two days the man would be fit for duty. On the 16th of July Colonel Whyte received information that the man was dangerously ill. He immediately visited him in the hospital, and under the circumstances he desired Dr. Warren, the surgeon of the regiment, to report his case immediately to Sir James Macgregor, in order that further advice might be sent down ; but in two days afterwards the man died, and a post mortm examination was immediately made of his body, not only by the surgeon of the regiment, but by two other me dical officers deputed by the Horse Guards, and that examination bad satisfied the public that the death of the man had not been caused by the punishment inflicted on him. He understood further, that the medical officer appointed by the coroner was of the same opinion. He bad but one other observation to add. The public seemed much horrified at a statement which had gone abroad, that the skin on the back of the individual had been removed. Now this statement was incorrect, as that skin was removed after death for the purpose of proceeding with the post mortem examination. The subject was now in course of investigation by a coroner's jury, and he would at the present say no more. What he had said, however, would, perhaps, be consi dered enough to show that the case had been greatly exaggerated, and that the proprietors of newspapers would always do well to make themselves masters of the particulars of cases like these before they alarmed the public mind.—(Hear, hear.) THE LONDON FEVER HOSPITAL. Mr. P. BORTH%VICK, seeing the Right Hon. Baro net the Secretary for the Home Department in his place, would take that opportunity of putting to that Right Hon. Gentleman the question of which he had given notice, but which he had not bad an opportunity of putting to him the other night. He had no doubt, from the auspicious manner in which the Eight lion. Baronet had entered upon the performance of his duties, that he would give a satisfactory answer to his question. By an extract from the medical report of the London Fever Hospital in the year 1846, it would appear that no less than 130 patients were received into that establishment from the Marlborough Union workhouse. The accommodation, it would appear, was of the worst description; between 90 and 100 men were crowded into a room only thirty feet nine inches long and twenty feet wide. The question which he should put to the Right Hon. Baronet was, whether this matter had been at all brought under his consideration, and, if so, whether he had taken the necessary steps to compel the Com missioners of the Poor-law to do their duty in that im portant department? It was most clear that much injury was suffered by the paupers, who had to seek relief in the metropolitan workhouses, and much injury was done to those who lived in the neighbourhood of the hospital in question. Sir G. GREY said that in consequence of the state ment which the Honourable Gentleman had re ferred to having appeared iu a public newspa: per a few days ago, he communicated with the Poor-law Commissioners on the subject. He under stood from them that the statement about the size of the room was untrue. However the Commissioners would shortly present a report on the subject of the allegations, and when that was presented he would bring it before the House. He hoped, however, the guardians of the union would take measures to correct the dis graceful state of things. CAPTAIN WARNER'S INVENTION. Lord INGESTRE said be wished, with the leave of the House, to correct an erroneous impression, which it would appear a portion of the speech which he had delivered the other evening had occasioned out of doors. It was reported that he had told the House that he knew of his own personal knowledge that Sir Thomas Hastings had stated to the late editor of the Times that Mr. Warner's invention was of no value. Now, he did not know this of his own knowledge, but Mr. Barnes, the late editor of the Times, had told him that the gallant officer had admitted in general terms that he attached no value to the invention, As they were not desirous that he should re .d the letter, he would conclude by stating that he had been anziou3 to correct the statement ho had previously made in this matter. Sir DE LACY EVANS said, that in reference to the subject of Captain Warner's invention, the newspapers had laid great stress on the services of the Noble Lord (Lord Ingestre), and thought that through his ex ertions justice would yet be done to the Gallant Captain. Re would ask the Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) whether there was to be any difference shown in this case by the present Government to that which had been shown by the previous one. He con sidered that the last Government had done all that was necessary in the matter. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the present Government had no intention of offering opposition to Captain Warner's invention without in vestigation. SUGAR DUTIES—COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND Net use is a, cons id era bl e su ff erer b y f cider also that the r 1 the mode in which t hose duf.ee are raised. We con sider it most necessary , fen. the sake of the public, for the sake of the interests nag 0:x , ncerned, for the sake of trade and commerce irx this country, to endeavour to arrive at a permanen ~. a ettlement, and rot to expose this question to discuss' tee ar.d doubt from year to year. -(Hear, hear.) Witla, aas se motives, however unpre pared we may seem to b a I am now, Sir, about to state to the Committece the general reasons on which we have concei vt d the plan which I am now about to pro pc , se to this House for the permanent settler lent of the question. Sir, it has been generally ac knoveledged by all, by the most intelligent writers for m ray years, that the sugar duties Lave been enormously increased. Mr. M'Culloch, in his " Dictionary of C, ummerces" as well as in his recent work on tax ad on, states, that the in crease in the prices ee f sugar, supposing foreign •to rise from 21s. tc ) 255., is in the last three years not less than 3,240,0001. a year. During these and the folio , wing years, by the advance in the price of sugar, it seas rendered unattainable to a large class of consume In, and, conseq ue ntly, ex t reme ly limited in ,the d eman d. Massing now from what has happened in former years, I will take notice of the plan proposed by the Right Honourable Gentleman the late First Lord of the Treasury, the effects of that plan, and the views with which it was introduced.- (Hear, hear.) The C bancenor of the Exchequer at that time, in speaking of Java an gar, said that, observing the price at some mont: as to be 2:'.5., and at other times at 245., he would take the average to be 20s. per cwt., which would give a total c onsamy don of 43,000 or 44,000 cwt. But in the course or the y ear a very considerable rise taking place, and Ow Gazette prices averaging in the four first weeks of April at 30s. a cwt., and in the four last weeks of December at 355. a cwt., the hopes of the Right Hors. Gentleman were to a great degree disappointed. I wiiil next take the financial statement of the First Lord of the Treasury, who said he considered it probable, that the reduction of the duty would equally increase the consump tion, which he estirnata , d from 120,000 to 160,000 tons, giving a return of 2,240,000 d. The Right Hon. Gentlem an proceeded upon the reduc tion of sugars, and reduc ed the duties to the amount of 1 Is. per cwt. on the color dal sugar which was more t han sufficient, but by limiting th.! , field of supply, and raising the duty with reference to other sugars to be admitted to supply the market, his estimate was widely different from the truth . With reference to the other kinds of sugars there is the actual facts of the case with reference to sug are from the Ist of January, 1845, to January Ist, 1846. The Right Hon. Gentle man calculated upon 160,000 tons of colonial sugar; the actual consumption was 2 37,632 tons sugar, clayed or equal to white clayed. The Right Honourable Gentleman calculated up on 7,000 tons-the consump tion had been 1,107 fo.e3ign free-labour sugar ; the amount estimated was 5,60C1 tons; the actual consumption was 3,809 tons foreign fr.( e labour clayed, or equal to white clayed 180,000 tons, the actual consumption only 54,000 tons. British Plat station Muscovado sugar was estimated at 2,240,000, the actual consumption was 3,326,904, instead of '1,140,000 clayed sugar ; the receipts were 18,0001- ,-; the difference between fo reign free labour and Muscovado sugar was 116,700 and 88,000 tons. 'llee total decrease, according to the estimates, in the revenue received was 481,000/. That was not the actual decrease, as a large proportion of this sugar entered 1 efore the Right Hon. Baronet proposed his plan, fel the actual difference is only 341,529/. Now, Sir, I think these accounts are sufficient to show that, while the Right Honourable Baronet acted upon the principle of reducing the duty for the pur pose of effecting an increase in the consumption he wasper fectly right. But it was an absolute failure when he pro posed to introduce different classes of sugar at differential and high duties, and it was only there that be failed to make up his revenue according to his estimate. I will now proceed to state what are the general prospects, as obtained from various sources as to the pro bable supply of sugar for the coming year, taking the statement from the sth of April, 1846, to the sth of April of 1847. In the estimate which I now hold in my hand, which I consider extreme, and by no means likely to be realized, it is stated that the quantity of colonial sugar in ware house is 40,000 tons ; that statement sets forth the ac tual quantity, and is considerably less than the usual amount. The estimated imports, calculated from the sth of April, 1846, to the sth of April, 1847, apportion, to the West Indies 125,000 tons ; from the Mauritius, 50,000 tons ; and from the East Indies, 80,000 tons ; amounting in the whole to 255,000 tons, according to this estimate ; and the most sugar which may be expected from other foreign countries would be 20,000 tons more, making in the whole 275,000 tons, to which 40,000 tons have to be added, giving a total of 315,000 tons ; from this 45,000 the usual amount must be deducted, leaving 270,000 tons. Now, Sir, I have here various other returns with respect to the supply of sugar for the period I have mentioned, which appear to me to be no nearer the case than this. One is a statement put forth by those interested in the trade of the West Indies, which gives to the West Indies 125,000 tons, the Mauritius 50,000 tons, and the East Indies 75,000 tons, making altogether 250,000 tons. There is another statement with respect to refined sugars, which apportions to the West Indies 115,000 tons, to the Mauritius 40,000 tons, and to the East Indies 70,000 tons, making altogether 225,000 tons. I have another account, which gives to the West Indies 110,000 tons, to the Mauritius 45,000 tons, and to the East Indies, 35,000 tons, making altogether 180,000 tons. I have another from persons engaged in the tracle,:which makes the whole supply 230,000 tons. Now, Sir, about 230,000 tons may be taken as a fair estimate of the supply of sugar for the forthcoming year. I have had a statement prepared of the effect of the Right Honourable Gentleman's plans, from January, 1845, to January in the present year ; but the statement from April to April gives 250,000 tons. I think we cannot say, according to that statement, supposing the duties were to be nominally what they were last year, that there was less than 20,000 tons of increased con sumption. There was a statement made by the Right Hon. Gentleman at the commencement of this year, when he stated his general plan with regard to the trade and finances of the country, in which he proposed that there should be a reduction on free labour sugar to 19s. 10d. from 235., but that the duty on all foreign sugar should remain the same. Now, Sir, I have an extract from a circular, published at Liverpool, and which is dated Feb. 2, 1846. It says, 6 The effect of the alteration in the sugar duties will be a reduction of 3s. 6d. per cwt. for foreign free-labour sugar.'i I believe that statement is made by a person of experience in trade, and which is thoroughly borne out by the fact that you will be disappointed in obtaining an increase in the revenue proportionate to the increase in the consumption of sugar ou which a heavy tax is paid. Now, let it be borne in mind, that supposing the consumption is 250,000 tons, there will be a tax upon. the people of this country, under present circumstances, of 1,400,000/.--Vlear, hear)- and that is a tax which .10 - es not Bow into the Ex chequer.-(Hear, hear.) I should, therefore, be na turally disposed •to propose the admission of other foreign sugars into the markets of this country to sur ply the deficiency under which we at present suffer very materially. But, Sir, we are met by an objection which has hitherto prevailed upon this Ilousa, contrary to the system which has prevailed during the last four or five years, but which has not prevailed hero during the present year, viz., that the people of this country should not be allowed to buy in the cheapest market. There is also another pr i nc ipal obje c ti on ra i sed against the removal of the duties on sugar, a n d t h at is, that if all sugar was admitted free into this coun try, we should be encouraging the slave trade, and that there are other considerations which outweigh all financial and commercial views, viz., those which are connected with the comfort and welfare of the people at large. Sir, in exa mining that ar gument which I do not propose to do at any length, I will just point out what I think to be the weakest part of it. That argument fails, because while you refuse admis sion to your home markets of the sugars from foreign countries, you place no such barrier on the admission of other productions-of cotton s, tobacco, Copper, and various other things which are produced by slave labour; and, therefore, Sir, you do not actually carry into effect, or even pretend to carry into effect, those humane views which persons who are most opposed to tho ad m i ss i on of slave produce consistently maintain. I hold in my hand a circular with respect to the sugar duties. After pointing out the increase which had taken place in the produce of cotton from 1790 to 1845, the paper proceeds to call down the indignation of all moralists against slavery. But the paper omits one important point. It states no reason why the United States should be excepted from the principle of exclusion. -(Hear, hear.) Now, nobody can have forgotten the elo quent statements that were made in this House a short time back by a Right Hon. Friend who sits near me, with respect to slavery and the slave trade.-(Hear, hear.) I mean the Right Honourable Gentle men, the Member for Edinburgh. Nobody can deny the force of the observations which he made, or the facts which he then stated. We admit a large quantity of the produce of America, and thus, to a jcertain extent, hold out an encouragement to the slave trade; but to preserve QUI' COllDigellOy UNA itis subject, we ought to say to the United States, "we will not admit your produce until you solve the problem which now oc • cupies the attention of th e A n ti-Sl avery S oc i ety, of how emancipation shall he brought about in the United eluded su gar t h ey States." I n f act, f or the same reason that they ex ought to shut out American cotton. The same thi ng may b e said with regard to many other articles. With regard to copper ore, slave labour is freely used in the production of that article, and supply been only from r l o e m t o y yet we do not e xc l u d e i t f rom our markets.—(Bear.) Such is your p os i t i on if you proceed on this exceptionary rule in regard t o t h e product) of foreign countries. B u t you upp laae not yourselves ground which in slavery your dealings with these countr i es. You have not been able to y your colonies ii in does not exist, or from countries where free labour alone exists.—(Hear, hear.) And in increasing your sup plies, you have been under the necessity of admitting sugar from the countries where slavery, or something approaching it, does exist, in order to meet the wants of the markets of this country.—(Hear, hear, hear.) In your dealings with these countries you have not been able to carry out the principle on which your present law is founded. You have not been able to inquire what is the peculiar state of society in Java, or whether it is not estate of slavery, something at least approaching to it. What the particular state of society is in Manilla, you have equally failed in in quiring into. In obtaining a larger supply of sugar from these countries, you have not ventured to act on those principles of law upon which you have proposed to act, but you admitted their produce on the faith of the treaties you had with them ; you have admitted their produce as: tl - ,e produce of the most favourned nations, and in competition with the produce of free labour.—(Hear, hear.) I say you have admitted the sugar of these countries, and though the qaantity intro duced may not have been great, still you have hacked out of the strict principle which you have laid down. There can be no doubt of this. But in doing this you have refused to Spain the advantages which you have given to other countries. Spain claimed, under the treaty with her, the right of sending produce to this country on the footing of the most favoured nations. You have, in agreement with your principle, been obliged to refuse, though the act, I am bound to . say, does not redound much to the honour of a great country like this.—(Hear, hear.) It was shown by the Spanish Ministers two years ago, that within the last ten years Spain has claimed the benefit of the treaty of being admitted on the footing of the most favoured nations, but it has been repeatedly refused.—(Hear, hear.) On this subject I cannot but be of opinion that although the treaty with that country might not strictly warrant its produce being admitted on the most favourable terms, yet that the principle of the most favoured nation ought to have been applied to it. The same principle ought to have been applied to the fish eries of the two countries, at Newfoundland and elsewhere. If the salt fish of England, then the salt-fish of Spain must be refused also; and the same rule must be . applied to the salt-fish of France. The Spanish Minister said that he acknowledged the principle, but he said also that these treaties required to be revised by the different countries. That is the sum and substance of the conversation between the Ministers of England and Spain, proving sufficiently that the opinions of English and Spanish Ministers were against that state of things. Now, when persons stand up for a permanency in these duties, they must endeavour to find excuses for their opinions. But there are further and more vital objections against the admission of slave sugars. 'Rey do, to a certain degree, diminish the price of free-trade sugar even in Great Britain ; but the resources of commerce are injured, yet the spirit of commerce is too ener getic to be bound by the stipulations on this question. But what do the merchants do ? They endeavour to find markets in other countries ; they search Europe ; they coast the Mediterranean; they reach Petersburgh and other places, and in this way they find markets for their slave-grown produce. Now, Sir, this affects our markets ; it may be in a very inconvenient way, and attended with a good deal of loss to English commerce ; but still it does away with the objection so often urged, namely, that no em ployment is given by England to the cultivation of Cuba and Brazilian sugar. I see it sometimes said— popularly said that this slave-grown sugar is the produce of tyranny the produce of crime—that it is £0 much stolen material, so much stolen goods, which it is asked us to consume. This is very well, but what would be thought of a person who would come with a quantity of stolen sugar—stolen from an adjoining warehouse— who would come to a shopkeeper and offer it for sale. The shopkeeper would say, " Why, these are stolen goods ; I cannot buy them, but I have a neighbour who has no scruples. I will direct You to him, and he will buy ; I can pur chase from him again with the full drawback ;" and by this proceeding the whole morality of the affair is lost.—(Hear, hear.) I therefore, Sir, for these several reasons, on which I will not further dwell, hold that the ground which has been hitherto taken by the Governments of this country has not been the correct one—(Hear, hear) — and that we must in this instance, as in the propositions of the late government, adopt the principle of re moving all restriction, and of admitting the people of this country to the best and cheap est markets .; and, acting on this principle, we must admit the sugar of foreign countries into the United Kingdom. But, Sir, while I say that you have no sufficient grounds any longer to refuse to the people This country that benefit—( Hear, hear. )—while you ought not to deny to them the power of obtaining their sugar at one million and a half, or two millions of money less than the price that it now pays, there are other considerations which indeed it would be improper and imprudent to overlook, and which demonstrate that such a change cannot take place immediately. It was very fairly urged by the West India proprietors that the change from slavery to freedom was an immense revolu tion, in affecting their interests and the market for labour ; the revolution changed the produce of the growers from 4,000,000 to :2,500,000 in the course of a very few years ; and th a t even your twenty millions of compensation, large and liberal as it was, has not been a full compensation for the loss which they have suffered.—( Hear.) They say, moreover, that having had to reconcile themselves to this great change, and to employ persuasion where they had formerly used compulsion—persuasion to entice them away from indolence, which was natural to a people just made free—and that this country did not allow them a full admission to the other markets of the world where they could have obtained free trade. Now I think they are somewhat justified in these complaints. The jealousy of Parliament upon this question was the origin and cause of the orders in Council which prohibited the pro curing any labourers from Africa. Such was the course which led to the rejection of the complaints made in the House of Lords of those orders in Council which prohibited the importation of Hill Coolies from the East Indies into the West Indian colo nies. But it was not, however, the less a real grievance to the proprietors of estates in the West Indies; nor should it be urged as a claim against the equalisation of these duties with the sugars of other countries. There were reasons also connected with the revenue which should not induce Parliament to sanction an immediate , equalisation of the du ties. Any sudden change of duty 'would, no doubt, most seriously affect the revenue ; but it would also throw out of cultivation some of our colonies, and consequently keep the markets of this country badly supplied fora considerable time ; and, therefore, in the measure which I intend to propose to this House, I shall propose a considerable reduction of duty for the present year, and a gradual reduction from year to year in the duties until they are equalised. It was thought that the Government. would be disposed to reduce the duties upon foreign sugars to 235. pet' cwt., but, considering that proposition, it appears to me that by a slight increase of the prices of foreign sugar in this country we shall entirely lose the benefit of such reduc tion both to the consumer and to the grower. The m erage price of foreign sugar according to a printed paper laid on the table of the House, on the motion of my Honourable Friend the_ Member for Lambeth, was for brown or yellow sugar 20s; sd. Th e average pr i ce of West 'lndia, Mauritius, and East India sugar was 225. ed.; these prices are for the year 1845. Now, Sir, supposing the duty is 235. 4d., and the price of Manilla sugar should rise to 255., you would then have the price of sugar to the consumer 48s. 4d., and we should then be exposed to the same results which followed the policy of the Right Hon. Baronet with reference to this question. I should, therefore, propose, that in the present year, instead of the duties of 635., of prohibitory duties, and duties of 235. 4d., I shall propose that on all foreign Muscovado sugar of 21s. per cwt. the duty should :),3 diminished in the follow ing manner:.— From the sth of July, 1846, to sth of July, 1847 2ls. ••• 1847, to sth of July, 1848 2os. ••• 1848, tooth of July, 1849-- ISs. 61 1849, to sth of July, 1850 l7s. ••• 1850, to sth of July, 18 51 lss. 6d. 1851, to sth of July, 1852, that a duty of l4s. should apply to all Muscovado sugar in five years from the sth of July, 1847. Now, Sir, I say nothing here of the propriety or advantage that might be derived from a still further reduction of 14s. per cwt. I do not think that, considering this in operation— that it is to be continued over five years—considering also the present state of the revenue, of which I shall have something to say before I conclude, and considering the present state of the Government, I do not think it would be right for us, on any specula tion, to ask for any considerable reduction beyond this, an I especially when it is borne in mind the reductions which had been made by the Hight Hon. Gentleman last year. Now, I should say that with respect to the distinction that was made last year as to clayed sugar, it is quite true that I have shown by analogy, that that was not overrated with respect to the sugars to which it was proposed to be ap- plied. I find with regard, to Havannah sugar, that there is white, or white clayed sugar, of which the price is more than 43. I have only to state at present that in the Bill which I shall have the honour to lay on the table of the House I propose to keep up the distinction of last year. I do this on the grounds I have stated. I I have not been able to ascertain all the information I could have wished on the subject and therefore, with regard to that part of the plan which may be affected by subsequent information, I will not too minutely enter. Sir R. PEEL--On all clayed sugars? Lord J. RUSSELL—On all clayed sugars. There is a similar reduction, from year to year, on the refined sugar and on the double refined sugar, and I need hardly, I think, enter into the details, but at once lay the list on the table of the House. The reduction is in similar proportions to these Made ea the Other Dugan. Sir, with respect to the various subjects on which the West Indian body have stated that while they think that any equalisation in the foreign fuel colonial sugars is unjust to them, and incon sistent with the policy which Parliament has hitherto sanctioned, and yet, supposing it to be done, that there are claim which they think they are entitled to make, and placing them on per fect equality as respects the production of other parts. The first is, that subject which I have mentioned to the House, the subject of emigration. We find, I remember myself, when I was in the Colonial-office, we so far relaxed the orders of Council, which have hitherto passed ; and proposed to take the sanction of the Queen in Council, aed obtain an order for permitting negroes to emigrate from Sierra Leone and the West Indian islands. Now, those orders in Council have been very much considered by the Government that followed ; various other relaxations have been made with respect to ether parts of the world ; I believe very considerable indulgence has been adopted by Mr. Gladstone when he was Secretary of State for the Colonial Department. With respect to that sub ject there is only one material alteration which we propose to make. It is that the contracts or agreements which are en tered into in Si erra L eone, or the British settlements, or Africa, as to the employment of negroes should hold good in the West Indies. We think, upon the whole, that with the present knowledge which the West India proprietors have on this subject, and with the knowledge of that which was stated by Lord Metcalfe, admitting the fact that labourers in Jamaica, and most other Indian islands have much more demands on the employed than the employed on the employers, I should say that we might give permission for contracts of service to be made for a single year. But with regard to another proposal which is to be made, namely, that they should be allowed to make those contracts on the coasts of Africa, where we have not possessions —where the British flag does not wave, we do not think it sufficient that such should be made without some additional conditions. Other questions the West India interest has laid considerable stress upon ; for instance, they say rum is not admitted upon equal terms with the liquors and spirits of other states and colonies. We have looked into this, and we think a reduction in the duty may be safely made from Is. 6,1. to Is.—(Hear, hear.) There is another subject which they complain of. They complain of the differences which exist in the excise duties of Scotland and Ireland ; but we think that to make any alteration in this respect would be at tended With a good deal of difficulty. —( Hear.) There is another article which they wished to have released from the excise restrictions. They ask us to allow molasses to be used in distilleries free of duty ; but here there arc diffi culties in our way, and we cannot at present give them this advantage. Now I think it is but fair, while we are applying free-trade principles at home, we ought to extend them to the colonies.—( Hear, hear.) We therefore purpose to relax the duties which are imposed on the introduction of timber and provisions into certain of our colonies.--( Hear.) In speaking of this subject some years ago, I said that I thought the whole system of the country had gone on in a vicious circle.—( Hear, hear.) The manufacturers asked for protection, and the colonist and the farmer were not enabled toget supplies of manufactured goods from foreign countries, and were obliged to pay a high price for the home produce. The farmer asked for protection, and the manufacturer and the colonist were not able to get supplies of provisions elsewhere. ' The colonist also asked for protection, and, in consequence of this the farmer and the manufacturer were not able to receive supplies from them. The whole system was a bad one, and I then stated that we ought to endeavour to break the circle.—( Hear, hear.) That has been in a great measure done since I then spoke • and I do not think, unle ss the ground of morality and slave labour is to be con sidered an argument now, that you can continue to keep up in favour of the colonies the differential scale of duties—a tax which pressed so heavy on the country.---( Hear, hear.) Ido not think that those parties who, during the pre sent session of Parliament, have favoured protection to the agricultural interests, if they oppose the alteration in these differential duties, could give a satisfactory account of it to their constituents.—( Hear, hear.) It might have been well for them to have done so, had their plan for pre ventng the abolition of the protection to the landed interest succeded, but it had not done so; this they could not say, and therefore it would be better that they should go before their constituents and say that the time for the abrogation of all these protection duties had arrived. I believe that it will not be considered satisfactory for them to say, we have been urouccessful in the support of our principle, or the op posite opinion has prevailed, yet we will so contend that the co lonial produce should still continue dear to the farmer, and that the labourers he employs shall continue to pay a high price for al the colonial produce he consumes. 1 will beg leave to refer to another subject, because it has reference to another year. The Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequee, in his statement lately made to the House, drew a fattening prospect of the financial condition of the present year, but it was impossible not to observe that with regard to the future year his statement was not of so consolatory a description. The Right Hon. Gentleman's estimate for the next half-year, is 9 1,650,000/. ; out of this sum the China money is to be de ducted (7,0000, and the estimate therefore fur the expenses of the United Kingdom, is calculated at 20,95 , 1,000/. The expenditure the Right Honourable Gentle man estimates at 50,873,000/., but if we take away from that expenditure 200,0001., which may be considered an expense of a temporary nature, it leaves an amount of 50,673,0001. But then we must add certain ex• penses which the Right Hon. Baronet has not added. There is the Irish constabulary, of which the expenses for the half year is only taken. We must add for this item to next half year's account 175,000/. ; we must also add for extraordinary services 283,000/.; for school and medical attendants on poor-law unions 61.5001. ; half-year's expenses for prosecutions in Great Bri tain, 60,000/., and for Ireland, 9,0001., making alto gether an amount of 62.,550,000/. I should, therefore, state the future permanent expenditure of the country, according to the Right Honourable Gentleman's esti mate, at 51,302,0 , 101., and the permanent income at 50,950,000, thus leaving a deficiency for the years 1547,) F4B, of 352,0401. Now when there is a prospect like that made out for us by the Right Hon. Gentleman, it seems to us expedi, nt that an endeavour shall be made to obtain an increase of income, at the same time that no augmentation of burdens shall be placed upon the people. The plan which I have to propose, supposing that there were 240,000 tons of sugar, for the produce of the West and East Indies and the Mauritius, would give a return of three millions three hundred and sixty thousand pounds. 1 stated that it might be expected that 20,000 tons of free labour sugar might arrive in the course of the present year. With regard to other sugars no very great supply might be expected, owing to the examination clause.—( Hear.) The greater part of the supply of foreign sugar at present in warehouse has been brought here in American ships, which is therefore inadmissible in this country by reason of the Naviga tion Act. Now, Sir, I should think it very presumptuous in us, for a mere emergency, to propose an alteration in the navigation laws ; for I consider any question arising as to them ought to be matter for grave and serious consideration, that there might be a permanent change in them, if change be by auy means required. The consequence will be, that a small proportion of sugar will be admissible. I have taken great pains to inquire, and I find that eight or ten thousand tons at most of foreign sugar. Mr. G OUL BUR N—Warehouse sugar? Lord JOHN RUSSELL —Of foreign warehouse sugar would be admissible by the present change, but I think we may take the whole of what would be admitted of foreign sugar at 20,000 tons, 10,000 more for slave, grown sugar, and 10,000 of other sugar, making in all 40,000 tons, which at 211. would give 840,000/. I think in this statement I have taken the foreign sugar at the very lowest estimate ; but looking on it as a question of revenue, I consider that it would return 4,200,000/. Now the revenue derived by the plan of the Right Hon, Gentleman was 3,475,000/. So, therefore, the plan which I propose will give an increase of 7,253,000/., which will turn the account in our favour, and show a surplus.—(ll ear.) I have now stated generally to the House what is the plan proposed by her Majesty's Government with reference to the sugar duties ; and I should add that I look upon this plan as one which, so far as the principle is con cerned, is to be a permanent settlement of those duties.— ( Hear, hear.) I shall therefore propose, if those duties are carried into Committee, to found upon them a Bill in which I shal make the sugar duties permanent, and not leave the ques tion to be debated year after year. Much, Sir, as the West Ind a interest may feel themselves aggrieved by the change which takes away this prohibition, I think the settlement of a question which has been to them a source of so much anxiety, and which has been so repeatedly a matter of debate, will be in a great degree a com pensation for that change. Ido not propose to vary in any respect that constitutional practice of leaving a large amount of revenue dependent upon the yearly vote of the House of Com mons, and I shall propose, therefore, some other source of re venue, which I shall state to the House before these resolutions are come to on the Bill, which shall be made a yearly income, and for which the Minister of the Crown shall every year ask the Parliament. I know some persons will say that by this plan we are again destroying that principle of protection which is due to the colonies, and estranging the affections and loyalty of the people. I consider, Sir, that the time is come, when with reference to this subject you must adopt an altered policy, and I think an improved policy. It was the habit of this and other countries to provide they should have a jealous mono poly of the commerce and the productions of the colonies, and that the colonies should be obliged to take the exclusive productions and manufactures of the mother country. ther country. I believe no country was more jealous this respect than Spain. Spain had a vast colonial em pire, and vet at the end of a century and a half after she had'aequired that empire, we find Sir Hobert Wal pole stating to this House, upon the question of Spanish trade with Spanish America and the Spanish West Indies, that the greater part of the goods sought to be introduced to Europe would belong not to Spaniards, but to foreign countries. Such, Sir, was the result of a rigid and exclusive system, without the energy and freedom of a commercial empire. My belief is, that if you support the proposition of the Government, that the colonies will gain, and not suffer, by this great change in your policy. I believe that the cultivation of sugar itself will be improved to a great extent—( Hear, hear)—when the colonists know that they must compete in the markets of the mother country with the productions of other countries.—( Cheers. ) I believe that they will derive great energy from being allowed to seek where they e like for the cheapest products of the other countries of fth that globe. And, Sir, recollect that you do not part with great advantage—that neither in this country should we ever impose differential duties against the colonies, nor should the co lonies impose differential duties as against us. I t . ca commerce se cure in war as well as inpeace— a commerce which is not exposed to the danger of conflicting tariffs, but which The colonists i ch regulated solely by a view of what is for the beneti of derive, I think, great advantage n being connected with this country, having the advantage of all the skill and the accumulated capital of this company and this empire has an immense advantage in the loyalty, the power and the assistance of the colonists. But these colonists must hereafter not exist on the limited and restricted system of former days that limited arid restricted system must be acknowledged to be erroneous. Our principles must be altered. I believe that both the mother country and the colonies would flourish all the more for the abolition of useless restrictions—that after some period of mur muring, perhaps, its advantage will be acknowledged ; but in this country, and in the magnificent possessions which belong to us, it will be acknowledged that we have hitherto been mistaken in the value of the policy which has been adopted, and an affection will be all the stronger when neither is subject to re strictions, except those imposed upon the other.—( Hear, hear.) When the colonies are neither obliged to submit to some restriction for some supposed bene fit to the mother country, nor the mother country deprived of the benefit of some of the choicest pro ductions of the globe for some interests to be favoured at the expense of an important policy. I trust the colonial empire of this country is an empire of which every statesman of this country must justly be proud—to which the people of this country justly attach the highest value. I trust that when this better system has been adopted, we shall see those colonies increase and flourish—that we shall be proud of them as our possessions, and enjoying the liberty which we have given them, arid that both may flourish for long years together. Sir, I shall now only propose to the House a resolution for the continuance of the present duties, and lay on the table the resolution, the nature of which I have stated in Committee. I trust that these resolutions will hereafter be adopted, and that they will soon receive the sanction of Parliament; and should they be adopted, I think the present Ministry, however short may be their tenure of office, will not have administered affairs without some utility to the country.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord concluded by proposing a resolution THIRD READINGS. The Tunbridge Wells Improvement Bill was read a third time and passed. The Der hys hire, Staffordshire, and Worcestershire Junction Railway Bill was read a third time and passed. LORDS' AMENDMENTS. The Lords'iuiTntim;niito the Glasgow Municipal, Police, and Statute Labour Bill, the Heywood Water works Bill, and the Sheffield Cemetery Bill were agreed to. REPORTS. The reports on the Ely and Huntingdon Railway (Bedford Extension) and Ramsay's Estate Bill, were brought up and agreed to. CONSIIYERATION OF REPORTS. The report on the Campbletown Harbour, Water works, Paving, Lighting, and Watching Bill, was fur ther considered, and the Bill ordered tole engrossed. The Andover Canal Bill was read a third time and passed. - Lord BROOKE presented a petition from the clergy of Warwick against the union of the sees of Bangor and Si . . Asaph. The Noble Lord also presented a pe tition from Leamington Priors, praying for the institu tionof local courts. Sir R. IisTGCIS presented a petition from the Governors of St. Thomas's Hospital against the Charitable Trusts Bill, and praying that i; might not pass into a law, or that if it did they might be exempted trots its operation. Also a petition from the Arch deaconry of Sarum, praying for the appointment of a Bishop for Manchester. Also a petition from Essex against the anion of the Sees of Bangor and St. Asaph. Also a petition from Exeter against the Catholic Relief Bill. Lord J. STUART presented a petition from Ayr, pr Lying for the revision of the criminal code. Mr. M. GIBSON presented a petition from the Chamber of Commerce of Manchester, praying for the repeal of all ill-advised imposts en sugar, that the im post and export duties on colonial produce might be abolished, and that all restrictions on commerce might be removed. The con,ideration of the report on the Dublin Wide Streets Big was postponed till to-morrow, at the sugges tion of Mr. O'Connell. Mr. HUDSON presented a petition in favour of the Wist.n.wdi and St. Ives Junction Railway. It was ordered to lie upon the table. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. Sir GEORriE GREY pri!z'Eit,.l n Trtition from v- pr Lvn.a tnat a ri,stdence five nut cutiler a st,-LleaJent. TOBACCO DUTIES. Dr. BOWRING gave notice that he Ivottld, on the MEANS. The order of the day for resolving the House into a Committee of Ways and Means was then read. Sir W. CLAY presented a petition from the sugar refiners of Sunderland, in favour of an alteration in the present sugar duties. The petitioners complained that under the existing law the supply of sugar was deficient, and that unless an alteration was made to admit supplies of sugar from all countries, great inconvenience would take place. Last year the quantity received was short of the demand, and this year it would be more so. The petitioners therefore prayed that all foreign sugar should be admitted at the same rate of duty. Messengers from the House of Lords brought up several Bills, which were ordered to be laid on the table. Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose and said—Mr. Speaker: Sir, if her Majesty's Ministers had been disposed to consult their own ease, they would not in the present state of affairs •a the sugar question propose any considerable alteration in its duties ; they would have many reasons to allege in support of this course ; they could have alleged the advanced state of the session—the labour which the House had just gone through, the recent formation of the Govern ment, and the intricacy of some of the details connected with this question. These reasons would have formed in the eyes of many grounds sufficient for a postponement to another Session of any large, or considerable, or permanent alteration of the duties on this question. But, Sir, in our opinion, there are considerable evils suffered by this country in connexion with the present state of these 'lobes.—(Bear, hear.) We, Sir, consider that the great i , o;ly of tin: still'er hV tlio inerevs,, , o pri , .e of sugars—a commodity of which no less than 12,000,0001. a year, or a sum ranging from 11,000,0001. 10 13,000,0004 is . expended iu this country. We con- for continuing the present duties for one month frem the tim of their expiration, and resumed his seat amidst loud cheers. The resolutions having been put, Mr. GOULBURN said, lie agreed with the Noble Lord that this subject was one of the greatest importance in a com mercial, political, and moral sense, and he thought he should best advance a fair discussion of the question by forbearing to enter into any debate until a future opportunity. He. should, therefore, confine himself to asking the Noble Lord one question with respect to a part of his statement, and upon which he did not correctly understand him. The Noble Lord stated that with respect to the colonial trade he would seek for an Act of Parliament to empower the several colonies to repeal such portions of the discriminating duty at present existing in those colonies with regard to the produce of fore:gn countries and the colonies. Ile did not understand whethor it was the Noble Lord's intention still further to give extensiOn to the colonial trade by promoting an intercourse in the produce of those colenies with foreign countries, or whether it would be Confined to the ships of this country. This was an im portant point, and lie should therefore wish to know the ins tention of the Noble Lord with respect to it. Lord J. RUSSELL said, what he proposed to do was td empower her Majesty to give her assent to those Acts of the Colonial Governments with respect to the discriminating duties. He did not in any respect propose to alter the naviga tion laws now subsisting. Ile merely proposed to take the power he had mentioned. Lord G. BENTINCK said that he and the friends around him, proposed to give their support to the Noble Lord, to the plan which he had so ably and perspicuously laid down on the whole, but there were two points on which they could not do ao. They would not consent to the removal of the protection which( the colonies had hitherto enjoyed. True to the principles upon which they had acted on former eecasions, his friends around him were not disposed to consent to the admission of slave-grown sugar on the same conditions as the produce of free labour. They were determined, if possible to sectrre to the East and West Indian colonial proprietors the pro tection which they had hitherto enjoyed.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend had said that, in his opinion, the agricultural interest, having lost their protect ion, it ought tobe a consolation to thorn that they would have an opportunity.of obtaining their sugar cheap. Now, he could tell his Noble Friend that it would be no consolation to them, that having lost their own protection they would have an opportunity of robbing the East and West India. interest of their protection.—( Hear, hear. ) A statement had been made to the House to the effect that therewould be a great falling off in the supply of sugar from the colonies, but he thought his Noble Friend had understated the quantity of sugar that might be expected to be derived from the East and West Indies for the years 1846-47. His Noble Friend had stated the amount to he expected from the Mauritius at no more than 50,000 tens, but from the best information he could collect upon the subject he could say that 60,000 tons would be the produce of the year. The Noble Lord had stated the produce of,the East Indies at no more than 80,000, hut he had every reason to believe that the produce of the year would be 100,000 tons for Bengal alone, exclusive of the sugar that might be expected from Madras. which was estimated at 60,000 tons.— ( Hear, hear.) On these grounds lie begged to intimate that lie and his party were decidedly opposed to the proposed change, and when his Noble Friend moved his resolution it was his intention to propose an amend. ment.—(Hear, hear. ) Mr. G. BERKELEY said he should not be prepared to sup port the Government unless they made some arrangement for supplying the colonies with labour. He for one was not averse to the colonies entering into competition with the foreigner, but first let them be placed in the position of the foreigner with regard to the supply of labour.—( Hear, hear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL made an observation which did not reach the gallery. Mr. G. BERKELEY continued—Well then, if the Noble Lord was prepared to do his best for supplying the colonies with labour, he should have no difficulty in supporting the proposed change.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. MOFFA'I'T said he wished, with the permission of the Committee, to ask the Noble Lord three questions. First, whether it was his intention to keep up the difference between Muscovado and elayed sugar. Secondly, whether he intended to keep up the existing duty on refined sugar ; and thirdly, whether he intruded to make any change in respect of double refined sugars.—( Hear. hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, with regard to the first question, he thought the distinction ought not to be kept up, but until he had obtained further informa tion on the subject he could not promise a change. With re gard to the second question, it was intended to keep up the duty ; but with regard to the third, the same change would be extended to double refined as was pronosed to be applied to other sugars.—( Hear, h ear .) k te• Mr. P. M. STEWART urged upon the Government that necessity of doing away with the excise duty on rum altoge ther. A duty of Is. would still keep it out of Scotland and. Ireland, and it would depend upon the manner in which the Noble Lord dealt with this article whether those who were in terested in the colonies would go along with him in his change or not.--( Hear, hear.) Mr. BERNAL said he had never been able to learn whether the law imposed any restrictions on the use of sugar in breweries ; and he would, therefore, now give notice of his in tention to enter upon this subject on some future occasion. Mr. BERKELEY regretted that the Noble Lord had not the power to make free trade more palatable to him. Mr. EW ART would have preferred a more speedy settle ment of this question than that proposed by the Noble Lord. Ile did not see why any distinction should have been imposed on the importation of molasses. Ile hoped to see the time when the people of this country would be in the enjoyment of cheap sugar, and cheap food of every kind. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied to the remarks of Mr. Stewart. Ile said that the tax on the im portation of rum was not imposed merely for the sake of re venue ; it was imposed principally with the view of admitting rum and British spirits to be consumed nn the same terms. In reply to Mr. HOPE, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the yearly contracts for wine, to which he had alluded in his explanation, would be sanctioned in Asia, Africa, and everywhere else. Mr. BAILEY regretted that the settlement of this great question hail been delayed until so late a period of the session, when it was well known that many of the members had left London. 111 r. HUME would rather see the House sit much longer than usual than see the settlement of a question of such vast. importance delayed a day longer. He hoped that the proposals of the Noble Lord would be adopted by the House, but ho at the same time must say that the laws at present existing as to the use of sugar in breweries were most absurd, and he hoped that the Noble Lord would embody a reform on that subject in his present comprehensive plan. He entirely approved of the Noble Lord's intention to abolish, if possible, the anomaly at present existing as to sanctioning the admission of some slave and free produce, whilst on that of sugar there were differential or protective duties, which, as had been truly said, did not. benefit the country. When the question of the sugar duties had been settled to the satisfaction of the Noble Lord, he (Mr. Hume) considered that this session might terminate, leaving an impression on the minds of the House that it was the greatest session within their memory. Mr. HENLEY condemned the propcsal of the Noble Lords' plan as a most unjust one, and said that if it was carried out we should have free-trade not only in corn but in everything else : —( Laughter.) „ Mr. RICARDO hoped that the equalisation of the sugar duties would not be delayed for five years, and if the Noble Lord persisted in proposing the resolutions as they at present stood, he should feel it his duty on Friday next to propose an amendment to limit the period of equalisation. Mr. \VAKLEY replied to some remarks that had fallen from the Noble Lord, the member for Lynn ( Lord G. Ben tinck) as to protection, and contended that the principle of protection on which that Noble Lord had se eloquently dwelt, had led to the most ruinous consequences. He had not for gotten the observations which had been made a few years since in that House, upon the introduction of the Hiil Coolies into the West Indies. The House should pause before they passed his measure; a considerable quantity of labourers were to be introduced into the \Vest Indies, to break down the claims of hose unfortunate beings who were now employed there. Ile hoped, therefore, that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government would recon sider this part of his proposition, and protect these unfortunate labourers from the merciless, cold-bloodedl specu lators who traded in human flesh, and who kidnapped the un fortunate Hill Coolies for the purpose of importing them into, the West Indies, in order to beat down the prices of the libe rated negroes. The House would not do its duty if they did not oppose this part of the project. Sir 11. INGLIS said that he must remind the House that they were not pledged at all to the merits of the measure, but at a future time they would express their opinions on the subject, Sir DE LACY EVANS eontended that the term ” un fortunate" applied to the West Indian labourers by the Hon. Member for Finsbury was not appropriate, for they were the best paid of any class of workmen in the world. They were so well off indeed that they could not be got to work. He thought that the Noble Lord had acted wisely in limiting the term of equalisation of duties to five years. Member_ oofd Lord G. BENTINCK, in answer to the - e t h d e , for Finsbury, said, that the Noble Lord a t Government had no sympathy whatever wit illiilecooh n. aldebdl o merciless, or cruel speculators and the be amply protect e d. labourers who would b e int.arloi."Sd i n t o the West Indies would fIAPMAN slid, that the Hill Coolies who had been formerly imported into the West Indies, had gone back to their native country with money in their pockets, and in every other respect they were both comfortable and I. appy. Sir W. JAMES wished to know whether the Noble Lord at the head of the Government was prepared to lay upon the table of the House any papers tending to show that one shilling was a proper sum to be Considered as a differential duty between free and slave-grown sugar. Lord SANDON wished for some further information on the question of slave-grown sugar, before he could pronounce an opinion upon the proposed measure. From what he had heard, and what he at present knew of the subject, ha thought the proposition was not at all calculated either to improve the revenue, or to benefit the consumer or the grower. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQUER said, with reference to laying on the table of the House any return as to the amount of differential duties, he did not think he could by any returns afford any information sufficiently explicit for the Hon. Member (Sir W. Janes). The Hon. Member also made some remarks in answer to Lord Sandon, the purport of which did not reach the gallery. Mr. P. BORTHWICK thought that higher protec tion should be afforded to the West Indian colonies. Lord J. RUSSELL said it was not the intention of Govern ment to allow any labourers to be imported into the West Indian colonies from any part either in Africa or Asia, where there were not Br',tish settlements. This precaution had been adopted by her Majesty's Government, in order to prevent a revival in any degree of the slave trade. He was not inclined to draw the distinction between slave and free-grown sugar. The CHAIRMAN then put the resolution, which was carried, and ordered to be reported on Wednesday next. The House then resumed. SUPPLY. Mr. WARD then moved that the House go into a Corn. mittee of Supply. Mr. WILLIAMS rose to draw the attention of the House to the practice of flogging sailors, and to the manner in which courts-martial are constituted in the British navy. There was no appeal from the judgment of a court-mar tial. In the army there was complete protection against violence. The civilian, also, had every pro tection. He might appeal to the mercy of the Crown. But for the poor sailor there was nu appeal either for mercy or against an unjust judgment, and he felt quite sure that if these circumstances were generally known the country would not permit such hardships to be inflicted upon a body to whom they peculiarly looked for protection. The system of flogging in the navy was, he considered, most dangerous, and which, if it were not altered, might bring serious consequ2nces upon the country. Formerly any commander could tie up a man and inflict any punishment it was his will and pleasure to do. But what was the present system with regard to this infamous punishment—the most degrading that could he suffered by any man—and which had broken the hearts of men. Why, under the present system the lashes were conned to forty-eight, which he was assured was equal to two hundred in the army. Many naval officers said more, and common sense points out that such must be the case. In the army the lashes were given with a . small and very often by a drummer boy ; but it was o ther wise in the navy ; the punishment was inflicted with a th t e hi lo k a i „ h erain a ; and by the stoutest man in the ship, satnrdeahmeehdadfrobmeenevaesrsyureptrt,,l.it(anfteedrr :glieehntehha;:s.l),YpbrlFteectidhiioedonbbliopeocdp that the public 19Q11 14 tau up 34 f 4. ; 94 65'ii 42 23% 1 9!4 936 P 86 , lON 3i li P f)i 194 (10 4434 15( 1911 3 134 ?.4 P 50 77 41 13 i+~ i i ~sd