The Sun. — London, England, 1812-01-10 00:00:00

Di 1 , tether or not in the present stage of the proceed it was necessary to appoint any elmmittee (or 441 purpose ; but as - doubts had arisen in some Nrters on - that subject, it bad been deemed ad ,..!sable before the House proceeded to any ulterior i"easure, that they Should enter into an inquiry. by 8 C ommittee of their ta,cit ; the more ecpeCially'as vi tl c i h an inquiry could be produalive of very little , e !ay.. He therefore rthriyA, that a Select Com- H ttee be appointed to examine the.Physieians in Vehdance on his Majesty, touching the mate o(his ajesty's health since the examination of his Ma iTY's Physi c i ans bef ore t h e Committee of the ° llse itt the last Session of Parliament. Th'e motion was agreed to, and a Committee cc. lardingly appointed of follows Lir. Secretary 'Ryder, -,..thAncellor of the E . . xchequer, The Master of the Roll*, tft. Ponsonby, hTr•-W ilbzrtince, • • • Mr. Sheridan, h e Attorney- Gener4l4 Mr; .„W Attain, Mr, A. H. ity )re‘• IMr; C. Long, r.` Tierney, wenty-one Members, as Lord Jocelyn, Sir J. Newport, Sir Mr. Whitbread, Lord Castlereagh,` Lord Milton, -. • r. Canning, Lord C. Cavendish, Mr. H. Addiligtoli, , Mr. S. Browne. „ PRIVATE BILLS. \hi the motion of tht' CHANCELLOR of the Ex.- cli iitutn, the E - I , use*reselved, • • That no Prtvat,- ball should be- reed a'first °me after the 24111 of "February. - That no Report-ola Private Bill should be reeeivedalter the 20th of April. Thes elresolutiOn's were.oldered . to be printed. • ORDERS ‘ANI) NOTICES. . The CHaNcELLowstif the ExCHEO,UER proceeded rpropus.e the revival. of the- Resolution of last , e6s ion; by whi c h alt ernate p rece d ence was g i ven tr oughout th e wee k to O r d ers an d N ot i ces; an d i n °I. t'hßt purpos e , mov ed t h at a ll O r d ers ' o f t h e D ay set down in the Order-book for Mondays and Fridays, should be disposed of before motions of which no tices should have been given for those days. Mr. WHITBREAD allowed that a regulation like the present, might afford some convenience to Mi nisters, but contended t hat it injured freedom-of dis cussion, anti impeded Members of Parliament in the discharge of th e i r duty. The resolution of, last aession'had b een suggested by the inconvenience to Public business, which 'the long inquiries of the two preceding Sessions bad occasioned. hose incok veniencies, however, would probabl 7 not recur in t he pre,ent Session, and even if they did, they were not, in his opinion,so weighty as the evils attendant u pon the regulation proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. If, however, any regulation of that nature, was to be adopted, at least it ought to be one of impartial 'justice. This had not been the case in .. the last Session, for on days when, by the regula tion, notices wer e t o tike O rec ed en e e o f orders, Mi • Listers had assumed the right of calling for partial lar orders, on the plea of expediting the ptiblic bu siness. F or hi s part, he w a s ag • h4t all regulation of the kind; but it any were adopted, he would wish it to go turtbei than that proposed by the Right . lion. Gentleman., , , The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER maintain ed, that the 'Regulation in question could in no de gree have the effect of ' injuring tree:lrm of Pailia- Mentarydssciission. - It wool:; still be in the power fq . any Member to bring forward, in cases of emer gency, motions without notice, although, in tbe'or diiiary course of affairs, it must certainly be deem ed advisable, by giving notice of a motion, to pre vent that SUrprise which would otherwise frequent ly compel' the House to rescind on Tuesd_iy the business 'which it had 'clEine on Monday- 7 All this Would be left in the sa., e state atter the adoption of the RegulatiOn as before it. Mr. ABEEC - RoMBIE - c‘oncuried in the p.roiest o( his lion', Friend' near trim, against the orbposed:rego lation.: He was far, hoWever, from iniputing . this Proposition of the :Right - Hon. ~.Gentleman to any itnproper motives: He only..- imputed. ? to !Am. the error of exposing the Houseto a real and ,i3.esinaeett evil, in order to get' rid of a supposed . and temporary inconvenience. Sir J. NEWPORT moved as an amendment to . the resolution, "That on the days upon which prete .dence was to be given to Orders, they should .he . brought forward in exa& rotation as they stood on the-paper in the order-book." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER objetSled to ' this amendment, as a great innovation on the iirac lice of Parliament. It it were adopted, the natural .consequence of it would be, that all 'the great ,busi ness of the nation might be impeded by the second readings of contested' Private BIBS. It was well known that the Committees of. Suppl y -and Ways and Means, were fixed only the day but one before their octutience; and should the Hun, Baronet's Amend ine"nt be adOpted, it was evident that all other busi ness, however comparatively insignificant; that Might have been fixed at au earlier period for the same days -on which those important 'Committees were to take place, would have precedence of them. Mr. PON.SoNBY allowed that there was some Weight in the objection of the Right Hon. Gentle man. He admitted that there might be some in convenience arising from the proposition of his Ho nourable Friend ; but it was an inconvenience 'that grew out of tlic novel praelice of the Right Hon. Gentleman himself. For his part he had never Witnessed any attempt to break in upon the old es tabished usages of Parliament, that was not attended with great inconvenience, and he therefore advised the House to pause before it agreed to the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. . Lord FOLISTONE supported the Amendment,. and declared . that he had never kn o w n an i nstance o f a debate' on a contested Private Bill having been car ried on beyond six o'clock in the evening. The House then divided, ' For the Amendment tc Against it - ig Majority , 48 - The .original Resolution was immediately agreed to without a division. PLACEMEN. We. presume that during ,our absence. from the gallery on the diQision, the House having takeninfo consideration the Speech of the Lords qop ? piii 7 sioner's, had resolved that a suprly.should be gr3nt to-his Royal Highness the Prince, Regenti lnd that a discussion had commenced on the motion, for, re-, *giving into" - a Committee of the w hole. Hattie to morrow to consider of the Supply ; f6r, on our re , .. turn we found Mr. C!IEEViV on his legs, arguing on the neces sity imposed upon the "House of examining into se veral subjects ctinneaed' with the publ:c revenue, before they entered into the consideration of the Supply which should be granted to the Crown. He complained that no step had been taken to put in 'prat:lice the recommendations contained in the Reports respeaing- 4 the abolition of sinecures and places. It would be impossible for the House to remove the scandal which attached to it in conse quence of the number of placemen on the: benches, until they took the Report to which he alluded'into due - consideration. Not only-had no attempt been made to decrease the number of placemen who were Members of that-House, but the evil had even been aggravated. Since the last Session, three new offices, the Clerk of the Council, the Marshal of the Adthiralty, and the Paymaster- of the Widows' Pensions, had been given to Members of Nrliainent. The situation of a Master in Chan cery had also been cOnferrei on anoiher ~Member, evidently for no reason,.but for his political cctridua. There was also an old Member of that s House,-(Sir John Sinclair), long known as an indefatigable Agticulturist, who had "sudd.nly been made a 161- I eaor of the Excise. Could it be -believed, that the office of M.irshal of the Admiralty was conferred on the individual who enjoyed it, for any thing' but his vole in that House. Could it be. believed, that the offices. of Master in ChanCety, and' Colleaor of the Excise, were conferred on the indiViduals who enjoyed. them, for a - riy thing but their votes • in that House )- Was all this right, amidst the distresses in vilvich this country was involved ? The motion with which he meant to conclude would be a.general one, that he might not be accused of taking any one , by-surprise.; but he felt the imperious duty, sur rounded 'as they were by the influence .of the Crown—an influence continually increasing, and exercised in defiance of all decency, to endeavour to . - call the attention of, 'Parliament to this important subject. One of the places to which he had alluded, he should wish to speak of with great delicacy. He meant the office beSiowed on Colonel WMahOn. He had the good fortune to be well acquainted* with that Gentleman, and he sincerely believed that a , more honest and faithful servant never lived in the Court of any Prince whatever. Any reward that might be given to Colonel M`Malion by his Royal Master, was an a& not of grace, but of justice. Brat he insisted that those who had advised his Royal Highness the Prince Regent to do what he had done, had been guilty of gross - injustice to Colonel IVl'Malloo, and, gross - injustice to the people of England. They had placed Colonel M‘Mahon in a most invidious situation, and they. had advised the Prince Regent to commit a great outrage on the House of CoMmons. Twenty-nine years ago it was stated in the 10th Report of the Commissioners for Public Accounts, that the office of Paymaster of Widows' Pensions was a perfect sinecure, that ,it was useless, and that it ought to be abolished. In one of the Reports of the Commissioners of Mili tary Inquiry presented to the House four years . ago, the Commicsioners referred to the former Report of, the Commissioners of Public Accounts, confirmed the opinion therein given, •and stated, that on the .decease of the Patentee, General Fox, they. presum ed that the office would 1 it: abolished. Since the -last Session General Fox had died, and ikt the tace of the two Reports which be had mentioned, the' Ministers of the Crown had 'advised iiis Royal Highness the Prince Regent to' cenferthe office on Cubit - lel Where - was the use o( naming Commissioners, of placing Gentlemen in an . invidious situation, and of involving thein in a otlatignes, if the Crown continued to give paces to s:"lti of the 'Opinions Whieh these •CominisSiOnera declared? 'ln his "opinion, Parlia- . ment ought to offer to the Regent, with re'spea and : humility :Weir . - sentiments on the advice which •he lidd 'received. Ai present be called open the. Hause to pledge themselves, and he wont& move, it as an amendment to the motion before them, that ther would take into, their earliest considera tion, 'the various • Officei of emolument ,recently granted' by the Crown to several of their Members. The SPEAKER was of Opinion, that no Amen& merit could be made to the Motion . before !the House. The proper course appeared to him to be, to move the postponement of the motion, for the House to resolVe itself into a Committee of Supply. Mr. CREEVEY "acquiesced, and moved as an that the House would to-Morrow se'nniglit resolve ithelf into a CoMmittee of Supply, in order to give an' opportunity in the interim, for the considetation which he had suggested. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE.QUER thought, that though there were sufficient grounds for op posing the motion, from the nature of the proposi tion' which'it involved, it was not sufficient merely to oppose it, without taking some notice of the. statements which had been nude. In the selec tion which had been made of persons to fill.public offices,. since the last SesSion of Parliament, the Honourable Getilleman thought he discovered a something that justified him - in concluding that there was a great abuse and a great impropriety in appointing' to those offices persons whO h were Members of trt HOuse. • He had'to oppoSe what he lead advanced on two distindgrounds.: In the first place, it lais obvious that where a Member had been appointed to a situa tion whieh renderedhim incapable of siting in Parlia ment, he could not come under the description of those of which he complained, mid as the accepting of • any offiCe under Government, rendered it necessary for the party to vacate his Seat, and for his constitu ents to . determine whether or not he should again fill it, - the Honourable Gentleman ought. at all events to have waited till such persons were again returned, before he Came forwaid as he had done - on this occasion. •But did the Hon. Gentleman real ly think that the circumstance of a Gentleman be ing a Member of that:House disqualified him froM serving the public in art official situation ? Did he think that if a Barriiter, for in.tance, had- an op portunity of displaying great powers, and extraor dinary talents; combined wiib _extensive !judicial knowledge, that all these should, not be sufficient to• recommend him to a public situation, because he. was a:MeMbet of Parliament ? Were they to under-. stand thatitwas.improper to appoint a Member of Parliament to an office - under GovernMent; for no other reason, than that he was.a Member of Parliament ? To this it was that the Honourable -Gentleman's _reasoning •carhe fnor,'. on ;every ace of the appointments he admitted that the indivi dual seketed was not in other reweas impro perly choien. Nothing was alleged agitidit any one of the persons alluded to; no want' of ho nour or of capacity to till the situation to which he had been appointed, had been charged against either'; and theretore if to the appointnients made there was any oaje6tion, it aros e s o l e ly from the circumstance of those on whom they were conferred having been thought worthy - to • sit In that House by a body of constituents who had chosen thern to be - their representatives. This was the first tithe he' had ever heard such an objection called forth by any appointment that might have taken Oace. One 'Of the persons mentioned in- particul.:r by the [-fon. Gentleman on this occasion, namely, Colonel M'Mahon, he had not only been silent with re spect to casting any thing like blaine or discredit on his character, but -he had dom. , him the justice to bestow a very high eulogium on his uniform con dud. In doing this, tae Honourable Gentleman hid done that distinguished individual' justice, *and no more than justice. As to the truth of all he had advanced in his praise, -he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), as far as he had, any knowledge of Colonel . M'Mahon, was ready to bear his individui:l testimony: Notwithstanding all this had been fairly admitted, to propose such a person to the Prince Regent as a person peculiarly emitted to a public re ward was character isedas disgraceful to the individual. This- was the Honourable Gentleman's state ment, and the appointment of Colonel was described as one particularly derogatory to the Prince, as it was insulting to Parliament. As such it had been arraigned by the Hon. Gentleman, be tabse the abolition of the office to which he was at), painted, had been recommended by a Committee of that House: The Honourable Gentleman farther supposed that the office had been-given to Colonel M'Mabon by patent for life. Now really he thought that before the Honourable Gentleman came for ward with Such stateMents as those, n>hich they had heard from him that night, he ought at' ast to have given himself the trouble of inquiring into the-nature of the office to which the individual alluded to he'd been appointed. Had he done this, he would have found, that the office of Paytthster of Widows Pen sions had never been granted for lite, and was not held by such a, tenure even by the late General Fox. If tlreti it were held by Colonel M`Malion even as it had been held by General Fox, still it would not be held as the Honourable Gentleman had supposed.- So, far was this from being the case, and so far was this appointment from being any thing that could throw discredit on the Prince, or be teat as insulting to Parliiment, or - even to a Committee_ of that House (which, however, was by no means the same thing), that even in its being given, a marked intention to observe their resolutions 'was to be traced. Far froth being against, its being re newed by Parliament, and disposed of as to them should seem best, with the aiTointment, it had been -distinctly cormnunicated to Col. AVAlahon, by his Royal Highness's command, thaLlconsidering the circumstances under which the office stood, he was to hold it as subject to any view that Parliament nai- tit take of it. He was . su rp r i s ed a t the ettedt wh p kii this part of his Speech, seemed to have.— Tnings appear e d diff e r en tly t o dityerent understand ings. There might'-be.sonie very great absurdity in what he had just urered, but lie was not aware that any tr,ing had hillen 'from hiffinto‘juslify the trittin wiant cheers of tile Hon. Gentlen oppOsiio.- - When the appointment of Col. IVPMThoti took place, it , had : - been • distinctly intimated to him, '‘‘ that he was not to consider that he hadany hold on the effice in question, that eduld prevent , - any adjudication of it which' Parliament m!glit thi n k proper to make. It se eme d horn the conduct of the HOnourable . Gentleman, that 'what' he had just .stated• had'only -the . efreet 'of 'confirtning the Hon.- . Gentleman's objeEtions to the appointment, and' that he considered the office - tiros given, to furnish strongergeotinds for complaint that'll it had been granted to hilt - Illy patent for life. It such was his opYaion, he was content to Lave him in the tullpos secsion of it. With' respect to that or any other ,sinecure, the House, however, would recollect the course of its own proceedings. It had been re solved that : no sinecures ought - to be abolished till some other provision was made•for accommodating pubiie servants. The case' of Co). - M'Mahon was that of an individual whose 'services metited a pub-. Tic:remuneration. .The power of giving pensions, ,instead of bestowing sinecures, had,not been 'giant ed to the Sovereign, and under those circumstances, the office in question falling vacant, it bad - been given to as worthy and - as:honourable an individual as the country could .seleEt, or -the world afford.— I This, hoWever, had been said to ,be disgraCeful to the 'individual so appointed, derogatory to the Print.e, and insulting to Parliarnen:. These obser vations it had been attempted to support, on the most futile. grounds that could be well conceived,' and on these it had, been proosed to postpone the supplies called for by'the country. The Right Hon., Gentleman concluded, expressing his hope that the, propositiOn would not be a , ceded to, and that alio aniendtnent of the HOn,'''Gentlemari viould be thrown out. • Mr. BtioUGFIAM fully subscribed to all that had been said in praise of C9lonel M`Mahon, but wus not the more satisfied - with the manner in which' the Official situation to which he had been appointed, . had been bestowed. Far from thinking that the high character of Ole individual justified the appoint ment, and that consequently it ought not to be looked into, he was of . opinion that the more' de-' serving the man, the more ought the appointment to be watched, as' one fraught' with danger and deserving reprehension., When a job was to •be 'dOne, if' a' person generally obtiO,inus was se-' lected to' enjoy its' profits, there. was less. reason -to tear that men would forget their duty, and he cheated into silente, than when'a men deservedly high in public estimation - was so selected to -enjoy a sinecure. The appotment, he contended, w as inso;ting to . Parliament. It ,tlew directly in the face of their resolutions.' The abolition to the office of Payroitei: of Widows' Pensions, had been.recom-. i ihelided 'not merely by, the 'COrmnissioners . of 1783; that r ecom men -rat ion. II tta been con firined by t.he QotiiitliisionerS • of Military Inquiry in 180 d, in the strongest manner' poSSible. The House itself in 1810, after no very mild 'debate, had given its sanc tion to the recomtnendation he had mentioned. In that year, after a great debate on the 31st of May and the:tst of June, and alter one division, the House carne to two re:Solution's ivhiCh ha would th'en The first he would call their attention to very, general nature, as it merely MSc:lived—a, "'That'it <Was the opinion of that Cotinittee; that, in - addition to the useful and effec lye measures alreyly adopted for the abolition of sinecure res, it was expedient to extend . them'• others, the duties of which' were per 'for ey:deputy ;'' and a farther amended r-esoiu ' , after a long debate, resolved, ,€ That for this purpoie, in addition t o the u se f u l an d e tf e eti ve mea „to sures already adopted for the 'abolition of sinecures and 'of offices, the duties of which were executed by pouty, it was expedient to enable his Maj,sty io reward inn different way . tho.se. e yvho had filled the high effective civil offices," ''''t-le had the' greatest respect for the high offices herd by Colonel MtMa-: hon in the Prince's household, but he 'Contended this did not bring him within the meaning of the last resolution. , It was Only understood• to mean those who hold higheffeative situations in the Courts of Justice, in the Army and Navy, and the Public Offices of State.. [The Him.. and Learned Gent. was here reminded thie civil offices alone were expressed in .the Resolutions.] He eorreCted' himself w ith re. spect to what he had advanced as •te the office; held in the -=army and navy. He CoriCeived the Resolu tion only meant those who filled the high etlective offices .iii the Courts of Justice, and •of the State. With this feeling, it appeared to him - a mere jest to talk of the situation held by Colonel M'Nahon as coining within the purview. of the Resolution. The Reselution recommended the abolition of offices which produced revenue without employment, and the regtileation 'of thOSe where the revenue and ear ploymeot : were disproportionate, with the excep tion of ',eertain Offiters in attendance on the king, and haring a respect: for the situation of persons at present - interested therein. • The reports both of the CotninissiOners of 1.783, and of 1808, recommended the abolition of the two Offices of Paymaster and Deputy Paymaster of Widows' Pensions, as being unnecessary, the one having very little to do, the other nothing at all. The Office of Paymaster bad in particular been recommended to be done away on the demise' of General For, Now what had been done by Ministers when that event took place ? Why, at a time when the House was not sitting, and Parliament had no opportunity of addressing the • Prince on the subjea, they had advised-it to be given to Col. .T.Vl'Malion ! But then, said the Chancellor of the .Exchequer, it was distinctly communicated to him, that lie was to hold it subject to any future Act of Parliament. What was there in this ? why', Colonel M'Mahon held his own private estate sub ject to any fe:ure Act of Parliament. That he mutt so hold his sinecure was known to him before, and his having been told so then, only proved that they Were conscious they were fis tug in the teeth of those principles which had been recognized by the jiouse and its Commissioners. It had been said. that it was not granted to-Gen. Fox for life, no more than to CoL M'Mahon a hut if they turned teethe report of 1783, they would see that no; reason had been given tor not immediately abolishing it, but, that it was then held by Gem, Fox. If then they had acted consistently }with that recommenciaiion, on his death it would babe been abolished. That ihe grant of it to,Col.lll`Mahbn did not prevent , its being subject to a future Ad of Parliament was certain, but it threw • an obatacle in the way of its abolition, and on this' 'groanci he eouid not but objea to the appoiot meet. 'With reseed tO what had been said en theeothjed of ai.aleingeata I - IQ3. Gentkifigh a Maste of Chaecery, he could hove w ished it -spared, .and he regretted . that his Hon. Friend had not confined himself to the appoititments to offices which were pinery sinea cures. • 4-le censured the grant of Colleetor of the Excise. to an. Hon. Baronet, at a time when the Committee were debating on The expediency of its being abolished, -He could not but condemn that . condud which threW an impediment in the way of . relicying the publit from the intolerable weight of sinecures 'e and, with the eiteeptiOns - he had made, fully concurred in the observations made by his H. 07 rAurable Faiend. When he considered what pains Government bad taken Co fly in the face Of the Re , solinionS Of 'that' House, he thought it extemely pro per for therti. to eiaese before they granted the sup plies. . ' _ . • . Mr. CROKER observed, the last speaker had Wisha ed one of. the late appointments had not been no ticed, and he also could have wished that one had been omitted—thal of the Clerk of .the Council. That 'office was not a new grant. It had been given to the Hon. Gentleman twenty-five years ago, and he had succeeded to it by the death of its late holder, instead of obtaining it by a new grant. Perhaps the Hon. Gentleman was not aware that a new writ bad that day been' moved for in the room of that Gentleman, on account of his receiving that office. He was surprised to hear the last speaker . say that the communication made to Colonel M‘ll , lahon on his, appointment, only : proved that Government were conscious they were aa tog wrong, and then _ go' on to state that the. only reason for its not being abolished in the time of General' Fox,' was that he held it by a tenure, of which it was thought he could not with justice. be divested. It was because Ministers were aware that such was time , impression on General Fox's mind, and foresaw that . one similar Might have been made on that of Cel. M‘Mahoh, eif ,notice were not given that such an objection would stand no • longer. The Hon. Gen. tleman opposite had omitted to read part of the te 'solution produced, which went to suggest the rep , lation of sinecures. It was necessary that it should be stated that that resolution bad notbeen forgotten, 'and` that Colonel M'Mahon had Only received the grant subject to such regulation as Parliament might - hereafter think proper to Make, Mr. CdftEVEV observed, lie had not . said that the situailons- of Clerk of the Council, and Master in Chancery, were sinecures, but be had complained. that two new placetnen, the one holding a situation of 10001. per ann. the other-of 3.0001. were thus brought into Parliament. Mr. BRonGttAm, in explanation, said he had read the whole •of the Resolution, but contented that the office of Paymaster of Widows'. Pensions, was one which it was not proposed to regulate, hut to abolish. Mr. CEOKlet remarked, that if the House were disposed to deal with that office at ail, it was still open for them to do so, without injustice. Mr. STEPHEN did not expect. that on that occa• sion any remarks would have been madeon the ap pointtnent•with which he had.been honoured ; and thought it would be but candid for Gentlemen having such remaiks to make, to give some previous notice,