The Sun. — London, England, 1812-02-29 00:00:00

HOUSE OF P:ih,§; FRIDAY, FEB. 28. The Royal Assent was given by Commission to the Coat at es Regulating Bill, the Insolvent 111 :Vors' Amendment, the East India Lear, the Irish Naval Stores Embezzlement Bill, and to a few other s 4,t a private or local descriptit.n. The Lortis Comm'ssioners were, the Lord Chan cellor, Earl Car6den, and Lord Walsingh.n. The House then adjourned till Five o'clock. Soon atter that hour, the LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wnolcaek- The Drury-lane Theatre Amendment Bill was brought up from ihe Commons by Mr. Whitbread - and Other Members, 'a4 was the Sugar Duty-Draw back Bill, by Mr. Lushington. These Bills were Lead the first time. RMr. LOCKHART presented a Message from the ouse of Commons, r, questing that Lord Grenville Olight be permitted to attend a Committee of that on Wednesday next. The' Deputa , inn was informed, that their Lord- l uic's Would send an answer by a Messenger of their own. Mr. IRVING, the Inspector-General, presented lin account of the number of %essels trading in the several ports of Great Britain, with a statemen t o f the -tonnage thereof, which was ordered to lie on the table. ORDERS IN COUNCIL. The Order of the Day upon: which their Lord= st rips were summene,d, being lead ; The Marquis of LaNsnow N E said, he rose pur suant to the notice lie bad given, for the purpose of calling their Lordships' attention 'to the subject of the Orders in Council, and to the adual " state of the trade of the country as it arose from these Or ders. He was actuated by the hope of inducing that House to endeavour to arrest the course of these ca larnities, which arose from these most 'impolitic and del eterious measures. Fie was impelled'hy a sense of duty earnestly to call upon that House to give its most serious attention to a subject, while yet it'could proceed with deliberate dignity ; and ere the subject Vas forced upon their attention iti a w.ly less con genial to its .wishes, by the loud complaints and ad dresses of the unfortunate victims of such a system o f Measures. In discussing this important question, • They would have to Consi(ler,first, its effect upon the , eh en)y, whose vigour and resources it. was avowed-' Y projected to paralyse; seC..ndly, ita effed upon that remaining neutral power, whose interests were of all others, the most importantly connected with 4°ll r own—te hat its etncts were upon the internal 1 commerce, manufactures, and resources of this ` cou ntry, all which they were triumpha nt ly. t o ld i t Was eminently caleulartd to promote ; and lastly, Ita effect's with respect to the system ofour maritime Pow er ao-d superiority, which above all others, they . W ere told by its authors, it was calculated to vindi cate and uphold, The principle involved in this last con sideration, it w as f oun d, i n f orme r t i mes, po li t i c I n d txpedient occasionally to depart from and- re t4ix;i but he could thew to their Lordships, that salutary principle had neier beeu so greatly or b litte eti , arily relaxed as by the very authors of this s „,; ; ', Bt ed system.---He would, first of all, describ e ad "al these Orders were, with respect to the block "-, " es tablished in May ; 1806,- and the Order in of January, 1807. He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) would remark, that the intention of t hose wh o proposed these particular measures, was that the blockade should be a real and effedual one ; but with respect to that Order in Council, it could only considered as enrolee(' upon paper, as since re annexation of H.imburgh and Holland to Fia7tce, 113 effectual enforcement was impracticable. The Orders, however, to which he had most particularly to call their Lordships' attention, were those issued i n Nov. -1807. These professed to place all the pores of the enemy in a. state of virtual blockade. It Would be here necessary to touch shortly, (be cause he did nut intend to enter- more than was absolutely unavoidable into any other subject), that !hey had the exper i ence o f fi ve years w i t h respect to the tfficacy and consequences of this System of mea 4,ures- He mean t not to cons id er what effect they tisl with respec t to cottee-house consumption in pra nce, et - upon the medicinal supply of her hos pitals, that would be a waste of their Lordships' ; but he meant to consider their political effeds li t i 'no the s t rengt h an d resources o f t h e en . my— whe et they curtailed th e ex t en t o f it s d om i n i o n s , or di ihisltedd its military resoutces ? What other Powers m ete induced by these Orders to aa any other part lion sh it of complete subserviency to France ? As far as Orders in Council we r e i n te n d e d - , they corn t " l el) . fail e d i n t h e i r r il e d. Those who held out hopes 4 it t he Continent w a s to be coerced through their et c "cY, found it themselves expedient, at the end h ei ghteen 'months, to depart from the principle ° ll which they professed to ;let. In Od. 1809, t Y tho ug h t proper to open t h e ports of the N orth of E urope. The actual operation of their measures o as to bein an inverve ratio of what was so confi efilllY insisted on. Ev en wi t h regar d to th e ports France el 4 ‘rance and Holland, eighteen months had not thaVsed before the principle Was broken in upon by er e authors of the system, through the medium th eir licenses. It was then to be conside r ed wha t ll , the effect of the system, combined with t h e " ea4 Ure of licensing, had upo n n eu t ra l nat i ons ; an d -6 1 t his view, he would particularly advert to the Were Pre:t e nt e d f rom tra d ing w i t h any o f t h e ports h , J2ra nCe ; th e y were t o ld, th a t on th e p r i nc ipl es o f r i llgerent policy, such a prohibition was justifiable, a nd that the ()hied was to retort up;on France the : t ins of it s own i n j ust i ce. He deprecated the effects of :aell a system with resped to the U. States;and dwelt .s u Pon th e injurious effeds of authorising a commer `4al int ercourse between France, and States more or les s dependant on her, and refusing it td America, ho was totally independent of its power. The 'Qinmercial evils which resulted were equally evi dent and extensive. ,Five years since, manutadutes the amount o f twelve millions were annually t • ra nsmitted to America. Why was such a lucrative and desirabl e tra ffi c i nterrupted ? 'Was it to raise ta matiufad ur i ng sp i r i t i n that great Continent, .._!,(herto chiefly d evote d " to agr i cultura l pursu i ts ; ' 4 lthin the short space of four years, the diminution ?lour manufactured exports was incredible. The United States were driven to the manutadore, and t hey now exported a considerable quantity of cot. tons to the Baltic and to - Trieste. His Lordship iben read sortie extraas from a produe , ion, he said, of a Learned Ciyiliat,, in support of his argumeut, , • end proceeded to observe, that die Jeag.of tb Order's in Connell With resped to . the'Poli!ical :dis position of neutrals, Were highly injurious. The original evi:s of the Orders themselves he Considea ed as aggravated by the expedient 61 licensing'; arid the number of these were progressively increased from 3 to 16,000 licenses in the course of a year.— In this part of the subject it was essential to consider to whom these licenses were granted, - by whom the vessels so licensed, were manned,' and in these points their destructive impolicy wax apparent. — The far greater proportion of them were granted to foreign vessels, which - wire tnarmed by foreign sea men, for the purpose of importing colonial produce into. France, and taking her manufactures in return. How infinitely preferable would it be to extend this commetcial indulgence to a neutral independent of the enemy, as-was the case with America ! The House and the country should contemplate with cheerful confidence, the existence, and growing prosperity, of a great commercial power at the other side of ,the Atlantic, completely independent of France. It was not a ground of national boast on the part of Ministers, that the trade flowing into the ports of Brest, of •Nantz, or the Charente, would have been Americ a n, b ut f or their Orders in Council. How then was it -? Were not the ves sels- those of countries subservient to France ? Would nor the sailors so employed be used in the naval service. of France, so as to regenerate her an cient means of annoying this country ? " Nor was this all—this system oflicensing could not be car tied on'at present but at the expense of morality,and commercial honour, fur which this country was so long famed. If he were correctly informed, one commercial character offered to give 15,00 W. for two of these licenses,which he would have converted into a kind of monopoly ; but on inquiry being made, it was said to be a mistake at the office. He deprecated a system which tended to •infuse a fraudulent and corrupt spirit into the commercial transidions- of the country. , A sentiment similar to this seemed to be entertained even by the Learned Judge of the Court of . Admiralty himself ; in illustration of which,. the Noble Marquis referred to some senti ments expressed by that very learned Magistrate.— A system so charaderised e his Lordship continued, seemed to be the policy of the British Government; its commerci it evils may, were there not a variety, of other proofs, be known by the circumstance that at present there were at least double the number -of bankriiptcies there were fiur or five years since. Were lie- to enter into all the different fanUres of the Orders in Council, the detail would be painful indeed. Upon the general, subjeet of the exports, it would he very difficult, from a view of the official statement, to form any. accurate estimate, as nurne roes articles were entered at the Custom-House, which eventually paid no duty. He wished, how ever, to call their Lordships' attention to some counts which which were that day laid on the table. nom ' these some idea may be gathered as to the injurious tendency of the Orders in Council. They would find that upon the three quarters ending the loth Of October, an adual detJlCation of upwards of fifteen millions in the exports as compared with the preceding year, and this, were the colonial pro duce to, he calculated, Would amount to twenty-one millions in the whole year. From what he had stated, their Lordships would see the practical ef fects produced by the Orders in Council . ; what effect it had on the political power and the resources of the enemy, and boa , they tended to assert and up hold the maritime superiority of tke country. He wished as little as possible to touch ueon the subject of the negotiations with America. He argued the whole subjed with reference to its-expediency.-- , - He thought it his duty, hozit ever, to declare his sen timents, that if the Orders in Council were repealed, the only remaining bar to - our return to a state of amity with the United States would be removed, and all the beneficial; the invaluable results of the resioration to that state of things would be induced, and all the deplorable calamities resulting from a state of alienation or. hostility would be avoided ! What should they go to war for ? Was it for the purpose of destroying a trade which, though it must distress America in the first instance, would, in the sequel, be more severely. felt by this country !- What would - be the consequences of converting 140,000 seamen, and two minions of capital, into a predatory marine, with rasped to British com merce ? The high-sounding epithets of national ho-, nour, national pride,•and maritime superiority, may be 'advanced against him. Such language was al ready introduced into public debates, official docu ments, and, above all, used in the negociations with Ametica. He confessed he was inclined to see the converse of these terms in the condud of Ministers,. which •he must resolve into a want of national ho nour, pride, and a deterioration of our maritime supremacy. It would far better become the high character of Britain to at as the protector instead of the destroyer of commerce. Such a line of con dud would, he said, lay the foundations of that national prosperity which the country expeded, and was entitled . to enjoy, and would establish her mari time superiority, and testore and invigorate the na tional power and resources. With these convic tions he was deeply impressed, and he felt himself unable to do adequate justice to the due illustration of truths of such vital importance to the empire ; but this deficiency would be empty compensated by those Noble Friends by whom he trusted he should be followed. He would detain their Lordships no longer, but would conclude by. moving, " That a Select Committee of Lords be appointed for the purpose of taking into consideration the effeds,pro duced by the Orders in Council, the granting of licenses, and other points connected therewith." The question being put, Earl BATHU itST rose and observed, he should con fine himself to the consideration .of those points in the Noble Marquis's speech,' which did net appear to him to be prope:,. or to refer to the pending dis cussions with the United States of America. He was, for obvious reasons, averse, under the present circumstances, from any introduction of topics into public discussion, which would tend to - diminish the chance which remained. of an amicable adjust ment. To refer properly to points connected with the United . States, would be impossible, without entering into a fail. discussion of the condud of America. He had to observe, that when the No ble Marquis had first given notice of his motion, he had taken the liberty to ask what the Orders were, which he was so anxious to have repealed. He was not at that -tithe prepared to answer, and which not a -.little surprised hire. He believed, that if any , Noble LA were to be anxious for the repeal law, and 'not to be able to state what that law Was; it would naturally be a matter of surprise. The Noble Marquis had expatiated not a little tipcin the subject of the Orders in Council. Yet, after all he had heard, he was really at a less what the Orderi were which he conceived should be f:•pealed ! It was with much pleasure, however,. I listened to the very temperate an d d e C ent manner in which the Noble Marquis had argued. the Subjeal. This he deemed a rare felicity, when those attributes of rank and birth, youth, and eloquende, were con sieered qualifications so very apt to mislead into 'a• chErent extreme. He must repeat,' that from what bad fallen from him, he (Earl Bathurst) was at a loss what Orders he wished to repeal. Was it the order of January, 1807, which was issued by those with whom the, Noble Mai - psis himself atied ? This p,erlops he could. not conclude in the affirmative ; but what was there in that very order which did trot apply to - Holland and to France, as well as the others ? He should consider that were this order to be repealed, they would not adVance a step towards a reconciliation with Arne rica. The States considered it as dite& a violation of their rights as those of the following November. The blockade under that order was complained of by America in common with the other pointse•ee Without that repeal, the commerce of this country • most remain under the system of American exelus siorr, and to the disabilities of the Non-insist)! la- Alta Ad. However, it was a matter of serious consideration in what state the trade of Great Bri tain and of Ireland would be placed, were both the Orders to be repealed. Much- stress was laid on the effet.is - of the operation of the measure of granting licenses, and he was aWare of the nature of the ap parent popular objett , on to these regulations ; but .with respect to the increase in the ',umbers issued; that must naturally proceed from an increased com mercial intercourse; and from Atte nurebers of neu- Iran residents in this country, who apply for such licenses. But he must decidedly resist the idea, that the country would, in its commercial relations, be placed in the same state, by the repeal of the Or.; dersin Council, as it stood in, before the adoption of these measures. Nothing could be more fella eious; the situation of the country,.in these.respects, was attributable, in no small degree, to other causes. Neither was it the Orders in Council, as erroneous ly imagined, that occasioned the increased number of licenses; (eller circumstaaces rendered it neces sary. In what other way could the trade of the country be carried on ? The exclusion of British ships from the far greater number of the ports of Europe, was notorious ; the same obtained, even in Many p2rts of the Baltic, and in those of Russia. The export in British bottoms must necessarily be diminished. He also differed from the Noble Mar-. quis in his idea, that no adequate or satisfaCtory ac counts were to be collected from the generality of - commercial documents laid before Parliament. The accounts presented that day afforded much satisfac tory illustration: A comparative statement of the number of ships, and the amount of the tonnage at different periods, was upon the table. It would be seen, that its 1806, when the trade of the coun try was at an unprecedentedly great extent, the number of seamen employed was 1133,476. In the , year 1810, when an exclusion from the Baltic and the greater tart of Europe- obtained, the number's were 210,600, forming an increase of more than 30,000 seamen. He was aware it would• be ob jected, this was a statement of repeated voyages, but it was these that constituted. , the real balances, and not the bare numbers of the ships engaged.— No slight stress was laid by the Noble Marquis •for not granting to Americans the.preference of licenses from this country, inasmuch as it •tended to promote the inctease of foreign seamen ; but it should be-re collected that these foreign seamen were included among thellenerican crews. He must contend that tire real - facts of the case by no means bore out the argument of the Noble Marquis ; and had further to observe, that an order was issued by those with whom the Noble Marquis himself acted, for the encouragement of trade to places actually in the pos session of France Recurring to a point he had alluded to in the early part of his .speech, his . Lordship glanced at what was conceived to be a species of immorality with respect to the granting of licenses. This arose,- and in which the prejudice • perhaps was painted;from the un avoidable wording of thos4 documents, so as -to make it appear she vessels were destined to some other polls than those, they really were; but where (under the unavoidable circumstances of the-case)- was the immorality of this ? At the lime when the French Decrees created much alarm in the mercan tile world, such measures were suggested as were deemed most likely to afford the desired facilities to trade ; and, in oonsequence of the repeated applica tions, the Board of Trade, taking into consideration the state of the commerce of the country, and the apprehensions then entertained that the Decrees would be rigidly followed up, it was thought proper to issue an - -order tending to give proteation to ene my's property, if such property were destined to this count ty.—The Board of Trade took into their con slderatton the embarrassments of our export trade, in consequence of the French Decrees, and an alte pilots was made in the licenses,- The objectionable • part of the system - was adopted in the former ad ministration, at a time when these Decrees were not acted on to-the same extent as at present. When they were, only enforced in a few of the ports of France, the Governments of that day were so. alarmed, as to adopt the very suite course which they now reprehended in their successors. Was it extraordinary, that under increased difficulties, the present Ministry should have recourse to the same means The System upon which they thed was to reduce France to this 'extremity, either that she should injure herself by .a rigid adherence to her de me-es, or benefit us by any tefaxation in the course she had marked out for her commercial policy. 'The Noble Lo'd had entereci into a calculation to prove the decline of the customs within a certain period, but the manner in which he proceeded was, after taking the deficiency of the three last quarters, to infer that of the succeeding. The whole of this de falcation, imaginary as well as real he ascribed to the Order, in Council, completely overlooking the • circumstance of the existence of these Orders in the . year 1809 and 1810, the two years in which our trade had flourished mast remarkably,• haviog pro duced, on a comparison with the average of the four preceding years, an excess of eight millions. fie recollected that when, in the year 1810, the Noble . . Lola, on the. state of th e nation, attributed the whole of the presperOus condition of our trade at that time to the Order in. Council of 1809, yet that same Order in Council, which it was impossible to Separate from the other, was now represented as the cause of all our losses. It had been argued that the Baltic trade was prosperoi:s, to which. the Orders in Cotincil did not apply ; but that. all parts of our trade to which they did a pply . were unpr ospernus, and the-inference was drawn, that the Orders in Council were the cause of our commerci : d es.--- I'li hoWever, upon investigation would be found to b, too hastily taken up. After ail that wait said resp*Ai:ig the immorality produced by the granting of heetiges, he was not brought over to the opinion; he s4W nothing in itity hich should induce the mer-' Chant• to do a dishonlurable ad ; on the contrary, by granting them, we enabled hitu to do openly what could otherwise only be attempted by fraud and perjury the etied of it was therefore to protect the Briiishmerchant 'from any temptation to those ads of itnmorality which were charged upon it as conse quences. The greater pot tion of the exports to America were not for the home consumption of the United States,but were a great p of them for South America and o t her parts . . Comparing, then, the trade of America-and the Indies together, trade had increased, notwithstanding the inreritiiiiion tv our commerce. They might rate the trade for the whole consumption of tie United States at not less than four rodlions. If they took the three last years in comparison with the three preceding, they would find that we had expended more in the last three .years by ten millions, and our export market to. C anada was nearly doubled. The Noble Lord ought to have recollected that from theist of March 1801 to March tBlO, an embargo had existed on all our trade, notwithstanding which, it flourished from the Ist of IVI4, tato to 18 rt . Our trade was open and yet diminished. Who could say, after looking to these faas, that our commercial embarrassinews proceesled from the Orders in Council ? In tsog, the trade of the Baltic was consideraVe, Which gave encouragement to our merchants to embaik in the trade six or seven hundred vessels. The Franch had by that time entered Stralsund,. and. the vessels having proceeged from port to port, were for the greater part captured, making a loss to the country of eight or nine millions. As far as the trade of the Baltic went, things were in tbesaine state as if the Orders in Council had nat existed. After some fur ther observations,: in which he*.represented the spe culations lo South America as another cause of our commercial embarrassments; he concluded by de claring himself, for all those reasons, against the mo tion of the Noble Lord. Lord HOLLAND begged leave to call the attentioti of the House to the motion itself, and . declined go ing through all the derails which the Ndble Lo:d had so clearly and'satisfa&orily stated. He did not pretend to that knowledge in which the Noble Lad from his official situation, must be much "more per feet; but he would call on the House to recollect that this motion was for a Committee to inquire info the Orders in Council, and their effect upon the trade'of the country. In the first.place,'he would observe upon what had fallen -front the Noeie Lord at ,the commencement of his speech, when: he had imputed tO his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Lans downe)that he did not know, to which of the Orders in Council his Motion referred. It was rather -e-x- traorditaary that the Noble Lord should pride him- - self in this manner upon the intricacy of that extra ordinary code. His Noble,Friend had called upon their Lordships to consider the case before them, wisely abstaining from all topics calculated to create animosity, or to introduce any passions or feelings into the debate which should • interrupt ttie proper exercise of their judgment. To whatever Adtmni- • stration it was owing, they were now in a situation in which it was necessary ,to adopt inquiry. He (Lord H.) thought with his Noble - Friend that that situation was brought about by the Orders in Coun cil, but whether that was the case or not, it was necessary to inquire into the subject. It was "diffi cult in proceeding upon this task, to dismiss Ame rica from their minds, when they considered the tendency these Orders might have to embroil us with that country, bet it was right that they should dismiss if, and therefore he should confine himself to the immediate question. The Older of 1807, he would allow, (and he was sure his Flonouraele Friends would agree in the opinion) should be in quired into as well as the others, and if found to be as obnekions, should be repealed. But it had been said, the Order was made dut ing the administration of his Noble Friend, as if' the Order of - 1807 was the foundation of the whole. He remembered, how ever, perlealy well, that that order was the subject of motions from the opposite Side; by whoa it was contended that more vigorous measures should be resorted to. And Mr. Perceval himself had actually thought fit to stigmatize it as being but a common. wer measure,an&not adopting retaliation with suf. cieet spirit. It would produce the worst effects, and degrade the dignity of the House to discuss a question of this grave and important nature, as if it was merely nparty topic, and interesting chiefly by involving the Consistency m inconsistency of a par ticular set of men. He was sure that it the Ord'er of 1807 was thought likely to suspend the inter course of thu two countries, it would Trot lave been brought forward by those then in power; or if, hav ing been brought forward, it had produced that ef fect, their policy would have induced them to re peal it. The fact was, that at that time the Berlin and Milan Decrees were not passed, and were but badly nnderstbod ; and great apprehensions being entertained by the commercial part of the commu nity, it was resorted to. It had been said that the Americans would object to that Order, as much as any other, in point of right ; but though this might poSsibly be the case; they would scarcely proceed to extremities on account of it. As to the immorality involved in the question, he would not go so.fat , as ,Gentlemen in other places, but at the same time he could not look upon it in, the light of the Noble' Lord. The South American trade was a circuitous one before. What his Noble Friend had said, was annxiorn in his judgment for the regulation of Foil ticians, namely, that we should not endeavoni to force a trade into the hands of. our enemy which was carried on by neutrals. When they recollected the pains which were taken to impress the winds of tlse people with an idea that America was pusillani mous, that she w ould bear any thing for the purpo'e of preparing them for tfeese. proceedings which hal since been introduced, i; was impossible not to tea surprise that those who were so