The Sun. — London, England, 1823-05-01 00:00:00

• • Altiatiilf to the Renee. .-Ifettmourepoketruth. the Right Hon. 'Gentleman was resolved not to eye* till after an Hon. and Learned Friend of his had delivefed his sentiments. [Mere .nr..!!icieeetary Canning intimated that such was not the fecal If the Right Hon. Gentleman denied it, of college there was no foundation for the rumour, which had nevertheless gone .forth, and which particular circumstances had rendered probe , ble. He hoped, for the sake of die- Right lion. Gentlenian, for the credit cif the country, aced for the credit of. the proceedings of that House, that the tumour was untrue ;: but if it were so, he wished to know why the Right lion. Gentleman had continued -silent. The Right Hon. Gentlemen had taken occasion to say, :that if in the late negociations he had truckled to France, to -hint Lord Folkestone), - he would never truckle: lie had not expected that the Right Him. Gentleman would truckle to him or to any body - else be he whoni he might.---(A cry of " Order, - .e - oler.")--if the Hon. Gentleman who-called out order thought ahere.Was any thing disorderly in what he was saying, it would ;be tetter that he ghoul(' rise anti stateehie to the House. - Mr. R. MARTIN 'spoke to order,' Ile had not meant to rise to order- es he now did ; but, after being called upon us be had been, - he did not hesitate to say, that it was disorderly in .the Noble Lord to entertain the House for half an hour, as he had core, on the subject of another debate. If he had any charge to .prefer against the Right Hon. Cientlemene let hint bring it forwatel in a Parliamentary hear !)- 7 1Ie heed thought his remarks impertinent to the pre sent debate, and -had therefore called him to order. Lord FOL KESTC)N E believed that, strictly- speaking,: the Gentleman was correct as to the rule of the House, .though he did not know why it should be enforced against hint .while it was noeinforced against where. lie would, however, -.comply with the wish of the lion. Gentleman, and abstain from .further remarks of the character of those to winch an .objection had been taken. It' strong remonstrances had been made in .:Congress against • the .injustice of. France, he •woralered that these had not been embodied in sonic document- be was sur prised- that they should have been "-vox et pryvterea • but to him it appeared that there had been something „like a betraying • of Spain to France in the enrol made to :meet her wishes by inducing Spain to alter her Constitution. 'The propositions made on this subject he warmly condemned. The pianos to. whom that representation was made were ,bound by solemn oaths to make no alteration in the Con estittition. It was .therefore extraordinary conduct to call upon those who were thus circumstanced, to violate their must eolemn obligations. To him this appeared to be an attempt to ••betray the Government of Spain to the King. Throughout these negoeiations the interests of England and - the Allies of .England were never mentioned, and , this.. country acted in every instance as if she were quite an indifferent spectator. .it was by no means his object to 'advise that this country should rush into a war. Ile complained of the course taken in the late negociations, because it appeared to hiM to he more likely ultimately to engage this country . in a new contest, than a firmer and more dignified course of proceeding would hate. 4 -been. lie thought these ,negociations were likely in future times to subject the country to great diflieulties if they did net now lead to war. He however did not know. that this country could ever go to war again till somethinghad been done to re lieve the country from that burden under which it now groaned. He entertained the most melancholy forebodings front the humi liation to which lie saw the country subjected. He had been accused of having more than any other Member been the cause of the accumulation of that debt, which lie now contended press ed down the nation. This he denied. Ida denied dint be had dune any thing that ought to bring on him such an accuse don. lie, as he had already stated e bed the most gloomy fore bodings. When the Right Hun. Gentleman first came into .office, he had hoped for better things. Ile had hoped to find him more alive to the honour of the country. From .the ta lents, assiduity, and intelligence, which had lifted that Right ilom Gentleman almost to the highest object to which his ant. bition could aspire, he had hoped (hi' a very different result while the late negociatidns were pending: 110 , would hope better things yet ; but if the Right Ihmoureble Gentlemen wished to be handed down to posterity as one of • the worthies who had contributed to advance the glory of Greet Britain, he must adopt a • course very diffl-rent from ' that which he had lately pursued; or, instead of being .so deteribed, he would only be known to future generationa, as the man in whose hands the country had stink to degradation, misery, and shame. Mr. LITTLETON was of opinion, that the inquiry , made us to the cause of the Right lion. Gentleman near lum not hay. , ing yet rive after what he had said of his impatience -to answer the statements made on a former night, might with at lean equal propriety be put to the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen, who lied se eoletnnla announced his intention to express his 'tendinous on this subject. lie believed, whatever the caneeathis eilenee, • that that Hon. and !.earned Gentlemen was too high spirited to lisie,resolveAl to wait till Ids Right lion. Friend had spoltari,,to give Mtn the opportunity of making a reply. Ile condemned Ma principles wltich regulated the conduct ot thu holy Allinnee; but lie was surprised the language held by tit.i tientlemeti op lantite.ou lite present occasion, as he ri:lnembeccd is. Wort:beard theta .threa.4h so many. years constantly condenming.the con. duct of Government for its proneness to meddle with the teen's of the Continent. He was sorry to say he could see few indi cations of good faith on the part of the French Ministers. They -had all along artfully veiled their objects, and treacherously proceeded to the accomplishment of theirdesign. He ably yin tiicated the policy of Ministers in the late negociations, and in sisted diet if it had been different, charges not less serious than those . now brought forward, would have been preferred by their opponents. He could not see why this country ought to have fitted out an armament to aid a nation containing ten millions of <souls, and notorioutefor the great defensive means which it pose etessed. If united he did not see that our aid was necessary--it was not easy fire us to interfere. He therefore gave his decided approbation to the line of policy which they had thought it their derty,to adopt. • Mr: Secretary CANNING rose. One or two other Mem hers offered themeelves at the same time, but the !tight Hon. ileotientan being loudly called upon to proceed, the other lion. Gentlemen gave way. , . Mr. Secreted y CANNI NG then commenced.—He felt ex. ceedingly sorry to stand in the way of any lion. Gentleman • who wished to address the House on this questiom Hut comsi. Bering the length to which this: debate had already extended— , considering the lateness of the hour to which they were ar rived on this the third night of the discussion, he feared it would be westing his own strength, and exhausting the at tention of the Houser, it' he longer delayed the discharge ore that duty which it was incumbent on him to petfortn, by ox ,plaining the principles which had .regulated the conduct of atiVernment in that Department . over which it was his pro vince more immediately : to preside in a negociation which lee tuimitted - to be as important ' which, he - was sure was as interesting as any' in which thus Ministers of this country had ever been engaged. The Government felt obliged, as much us they could feel obliged, by the unconscious - conferring (Wan tin. !intended benefit, to his lion.. Friend opposite (Mr. Macdonald) who bad brought this question before the Minor; for though they were before apprised of. the concurring opinions of many of the Members upon this subject, and though they had had the good fortune to receive intimations not to be mistaken,'' of the general sense of .the people ; yet it was not „his in. tendon, as it was not the ordinary course of Ministers, to call for an opinion on the Papers which had been laid before .Parliament. He therefore was grateful to the lion Gentle man, who originated this que.non, for the perfectly candid - and mistily way in which he had brought it forward, who by doing so, wield, as he hoped, prove the means of adding to the general approbation of the country the recorded appro. bation of that liouse.--eff fear, hear, hear o—The0 —The Government mood at present in it most: extraordinary situation. It was nut "said that they had secured the Peace, but it could not be de. 1 ened••that they had. not • provoked a war. Peace or Vl'ar, _however,: wits the usual. result of negociating between in. -dependent • states, .yet every Gentleman on the other side with: tine or two- exc w.ton 4, (exceptions which he mentioned -but to homier), had, declared that whatever the question before the House might be, it was not the question of pestle, or war. This seemed to him to be u most singular con . aitruction, as the negociations which were recently pendirig - could only arrive at one or other of those terminations. lie -fore this debate 'commenced,. is was known that the dispo eitiort of those opposed to ,Ministers were warlike. It was understood that they considered war to be desirable and ne ming. • The cry of ." to arms" was raised, and caps had been thrown up for war from the crowd. But when they came to en quire when , -e these manifestations of feelings proceeded, but two individuals had acknowledged the cry, and these had' not taken up the. caps to wear. Whatever it might -notv be coo. tended was the question actually before the House, the ghee.., don which the Government lied to consider, and that on which - tiny had to decide, was: the- question of peace or war, and he &aired that the negociatione might-be so considered, and with , a reference to their decision, that win- au be avoided, and 'peace, if poeeible, preserved.'—(Hear !)—flow was it possible to. .diecusit with advantage the late traMotctions, or 'any tieg ocia. thins in which the country might be engaged, unless' reference was made to the object originally in view? He - repeated. it, whethet the House considered the question to be that of pence or war or not, Ministers could not take one step in the late . -negotiations till they had weighed that question, and de. terinined what direction ought to he given to the negociatfons, so far as this country wits concerned. They had decided that,. in the first iestenee, it was their duty to endeavour to preserve- , peace fur all the world - ; next, to preserve peace between the & natio incest particularly expoeed to each other ; and failing in this, to attempt to preitervii pence for this country; but a peace consistent with the gpod faith, the interests, and the' honour of the natiort,—Plear,. !tear, hear o—Two questions sugrosted themselves for the doeii4ion of tins sultiect.' The first was whether the object of Ministers wektiefilght one ; the second whether they had pursued it in a right wtty47fte tint question, whether Ministers had-none right to aim at peace in the present state of the world end of this country, he world waive for the present. Ile wietild assume the fact, hut would afterwards return to the , consideration of the question. lie would theft. proceed to the negoziations, and inquire whether these had been rightly conducted to prevent. the breaking out of a new I war. in looking to these, directed as the effiats of the British Government had been, to preserve the peace .of Europe genes rally--peace between France and Spain particularly, and especially peace for this country, he thought the transactions ought to he divided into three stages,., The first of these com s prehended all that related to the proceedings at - Verona—the second, the negeciations with France.--the third, the negocia-. dons with Spain. There was no fallacy, he hadobservcd, ran so universally through the arguments • of till the aentlemen Who had spoken on the opposite side of the (louse as that of - taking theeXpreseions - which i belonged to one stage : of . the ease and applying them to another. For instance, the Hon. Baronet ' oppolite,.in a speech of great ability, had . repeated an objec. nun there which he understood had .been previously heard in another place, and this, as he believed, was the only pas sage which he „had .borrowed,- so he, would - . .way it was -, the only one which he had used which was perfectly weak and useless for his. argument. The Honourable Barnet -had fol. lowed the words, and as nearly its possible ' ,so he judged from what he had heard, the manner of the Noble' proprietor of ; the sentence which he had adopted when remarking on the expression which he (Mr. Canning used in hie dispatch of the 137th .ef September, in which the Duke of Wellington was in structed to . declare, that "to any interference by force or rrierieceon• the part of the Allies against Spain - come -what may, his Majesty would not be party." Upon this the Hon. Burt. demanded ‘`C/ctidilignuintantoleret hi e,prontissur Matra" Cood God ! whet had all this conic to % After declaring the King Would 'be no party to the proceedings'-in question, what had been the resnit.. It' the Honourable Baronet considered this applicable to the whole of the negociations ' or if he could phew thateit e applied to a .particular line of conduct at a more advanced stage of them, there would be something in the argument—something in the influence which he wished should be Omen front it. But, however weak this declaration might seem, now it was something in its favour that it was applicable to, the question which it was then intended to meet. That question, it shouhlhe reinembertal, was not a question of war between France and Spain ; but whether, in the Congress at Verona, a determination should be avowed by the Allies to in terfere with force or menace in the affairs of Spain. To such policy it had been declared that his Majesty would be no party, though it might be the policy of the Alliance, of which his Majesty was a mendur ; and it therefore announced, that conic what might, it' such a course were pursued, it would produce nothing less than the dissolution of that Alliance. If' the lion. Baronet looked to the course which those proceedings had sub sequently.taken., he would find that that declaration had not proved unimpertant; if he followed the negotiations to the end, what would he see was the consequence of it ? Why, he would see that this . specimen of the bathos—this instance of perfectien in the art of sinking as it had been, described to be; it would , be .seen that the effect of this very instruction was taparalyze the resolves of the Allies', and the Congress sepa rated , without determining in favour of any joint operation against Spain. He believed it was true in politics as it cer tainly was in mechanics`, that it' you moved the greatest body with the least possible power, you most successfully accom plished your object ; and so, it by the least possible threat, you succeded in deterring those opposed to you from acting against your policy, it was no charge against a statesman that the menace . used was. by no means equal to the good which it had achieved. It was no reproach, that instead of flourishing on general . principles, he at once arrived at the point which he sought to gain ; but, on the contrary, it,' was most desirable so to do without waste of time and argu ment, and with the least possible irritation of temper, by provoking which', a negaciator must of necessity risk the ob ject for which lie contended.—(Hear, hear, hear'.)—This, he asserted, had been done in the case referred to, and who were Cie:, witnesses whom he would call to prove the assertion ? Why the first was, the Duke de Montmorency, who stated to his Government, that if England would have been a party to the proceedings- contemplated at Verona, success was certain, and the object of France must at once have been accomplished.— The next voucher which he would produce was the letter front Sir W. A'Court, in which he stated M. tie San Miguel, on being informed that the Congress at Verona had broke up With the brOint filmcit of merely sending three notes from the Courts in alliance with France, considered her object to have been defeated through our exertions.. His third witness was the fun. Member for Westminster.--(Hear, hear!)--who thrtunately for him (Mr. Secretary Canning) had been wander ing an the Continent, and had picked up information front vari ous persons with whon helugl met, which information proved tuore.Correei than anti-chamber reports usually were, and front this it app,ored that the lion. Gentlemen bad been informed that the resotutions originally proposed far the adoption of the Congress had been set aside, and that he (Mr Canning) as the British Alinister was to bear the blame.-.-(Bear hear!)—ln this case, then, he and, the English Government were impeached nut for failure but for success, and the lion. Bert. with bad taste, not his own, had argued, following the steps of others, as if success were not worth having because the machinery em ployed had not made sufficient noise in its operation.-(Hear, hear, hear I)—N.ow, in the first place, he would contend, that whatever might grow out of the conflict between France and Spain from a comparatively insulated quarrel, though matter for grave consideration, was less to be dreaded than the events which might follow of all the Great Powers of the Continent were on the one side, and , Spain on the other. First of all, then, it had been the object .ef this Government to diminish the opposition to Spain—to reduce it from join hostility to a separate quarrel—front a question between the Allies and Spain. to a question between nation and nation ; which, what. ever the result might be, brought it at least to the size of ordi nary events, and within the scope of ordinary supremacy. ,The grand object of England had been to destroy the joint charac ter of the hostility to Spain—to keep within reasonable bounds the jurisdiction of the Alliance, and to do away with that areopagitical spirit of superintendence over the Government of Independent States which had manifested itself. This had been accomplished. With respect to this part.of the case, how stood the only charge which, after all, had been seriously urged against the Government ? It was not so much charged that the object of. the Government was amiss, As that the negotia tions had been conducted in too low a tone. Here was at least one case in which a high tone might have frustrated the object in view, which object had been ained by the lore tone now made the subject of complaint. lie begged then to call upon Ose House before they proceeded to decide on the question, which exhibited more of the ingenuity of the Philologist than of the policy of the Stateitmen,—betbre, they ventured to de. (ermine a question of grammatical nicety, he- begged that they would at least except the transactions at Verona, from ' the proposed censure, where he thought he had shewn that a high tone was not only unnecessary, but would have been ' misplaced, lie excepted from those who had made a general ' call for a higher tone, his Hon, Friend the Member for Brtunber. He, though he had joined in the complaint, he (31r. Canning) v<as sure, as he knew his mode of dunking and listened with reverence to all that came from him, directed his objection to other topics, than those immediately connected with politics.— He rather contended that that profligacy which had been ma nifested should be reprobated as immoral than opposed from motives of political expialiency. That lion. Gentleman had passed a useful and amiable life, and 'had gone through the world without being stained ' by its contaminations. But he fea r ed his Honourable Friend was not aware how difficult it was to apply to politics those principles which were excellent as connected with morals. Had we employed in the negociations that moral tone which lie might. have admired„ many would have complained, though his lion. Friend would not, that we had torn a leaf front the book of the Holy Alliance, and framed a canting protest against their iniquity to cover the proaecu. tion of our own purposes. -The - cause having been gained at Verona, to dwell on the proceedings of' the Congress was un necessary, The principles on which the Allies were tbs. posed to . act, they knew could not be considered as de bateable ground. There, politics had been disclaimed two years before by the lat e Marquis of Londonderry, and to renew discussions on these would have led to differences and disputes without end. He knew that an Honourable Gentleman opposite might he disposed to have lectured them aft being tyrants anti despots leagued against the interests of all mankind. This might be very desirable in some cases, but it would appear samewliat singular in diplomacy. It could hardly be expected that the. Alluta would have borne this with patiente—it could hardly he supposed that in return for math indignities they would have acted like Sheetock in the play, and saide,... - s . i 6 lair Sir, you spit on me 'on Wednesdaylast ; . • Yeti spurned me on such a day ; another time Yoti called me-sehig ; anti for these courtesies I yield yon-what you ask." Taking such a tone as he had supposed could do no good.— Should we not despise those who could thus be swayed, and could it be contended that the doctrines of morality and those of true policy were less usefully , inculcated where embellialiments of tins sort were dispedsed with, anti where recourse was not had to the flowers of Billingtigate. But other objections were urged against Ministers in connection with the Congress. It had been asked why we sent a Plenipotentiary at all . to the Congress ? It was a remarkable fact, as he had stated on the day when he first addressed the House on this subject, that before the Duke of Wellington left this-country it was not understood that the affairs of. Spain were to form so prominent a part in its pro. ceedings. It had not been intended to send a British Pleni potentiary to Verona in the first instance. A Congress at Ve rona had originally been del ermined upon solely to take into its coincide anon the affairs of Italy, with which the Hon. °Kalman was aware England had declined to interfere two years ago. England ,was therefore not to Varticipate in ' proceedings, and all that regarded her was proposed to be ar -ranged in a previous Congress to be held at Vienna. He 'had no hesitation in saying, that when he accepted the seals of office, the grand object in ,view was to prevent the commence ment of hostilities between Russia and the Porte. By the 'concurrence of Russia and the Turkish Government the ar rangement of the differences between the two countries had been left in the hands of the British Ambassador at. Constan tinople. So completely had this business been placed in the handa of Lord Strangford, that he was summoned to. Verona, to report the state in which matters then were be tween those Powers. Undoubtedly it was known from - cir ctunstancca, which, were of public notoriety, that something connected with the affitirs of Spain would come! before the Congress, but the bulk of the instructions. which the Noble Duke carried with him related-to the disputes between Russia anti the Sublime Porte. The arrangement had been .left to the same Minister, and so far as any thing could. be predicted with respect to that •which - was not -absolutely, de rided upon, be belieVed . , there ivas every' prospect of; effect ing a permanent adjustment of the differences which had prevailed. This would account for our ultimately !tending an Ambassador to - Verona. It was at that'Ainte said,- that Spain ought to have been called upon' to send a Plenipoten tiary to Congress. So flir as Great Britain Was concerned, he would answer this. In the first place, we did not wjsh the affairs of Spain to be brought into discussion at all, and comeptentlV we could not have taken a preliminary step which would have seemed to recognize the necessity of such a proceeding. •In the next place, if' Spain had not given an- answer the reverse of what was expected, the demand might have placed - this country in a similar situation. A 31imster sent front the King of, Spain, then at variance with his Cottes, might not have been received as the Spanish Ambassador, and- if no Minister at all had been sent this might have been taken us a proof of the King's captivity, and therefore, in either case, we were glad to avoid making such a deniand. In the first instance, we wished to prevent the discussion which might have arisen as to the true characterof the Ambassador ; in the next we were anxi ous to give no countenance to a Government which we denied. Such. were the circumstance under which a British Minister went to Verona. Front these and front what followed, it would be seen that nothing had occurred to lower this country . in the eyes of Russia or the Porte; A British Minister went to the Congress entrusted - with the Wiest powers which any State could give to its own Ambassador, and lie returned to Con stantinople with the fullest powers. ever given to an Am bassador from the Court to which he belonged. Such were the proofs of the decay of our influence and of the falling character of this country, that two of the greatest Powers of the world were content to leave the settlement of their dif . . ierences to a British Minister from the confidence they had in British equity, British influence, British wisdom, and British power.—(flear, hear !)—lie had stated that Plngland declined interfering with the atlitirs of kat., but it could not he expect ed our Ambassador would withiiold his consent to the CVFICLIa. non of Naplet and Piedmont. He had shown that by our ex ertions the Allies had been prevented front acting in a corpo. rate character against Spain. The three Powers who had con curred with France had withdrawn their Ministers, having only promised their active support in certain hypothetical cases, which cases had not occurred ; these caul were, first, any at tack on France by Spain ; secondly, any violence offered to the King of Spain or to his family ; and thirdly, any forcible attempt to change the reigning dynasty. He, therefore, main tained these things not having taken place, Franco was not at war on a Verona case, and so far as he knew (though he could not prove a negative) no subsequent arrangement had been de. tennined upon which should entitle France to support from the Allies in any other cafe:. Great Britain bad peremptorily re. fused her mediation between the Allies and Spain, if the former should unite in any corporate declaration, or act against that country; but the moment the 'Duke of Wellington arrived at Paris, he was instructed to otter the mediation of England be. tweet) France and Spain. \Vas it necessary to point out the dif ference in principle between an offer of mediation between the Allies and Spain, which would have given to this alliance a cha racter which we denied to it in IWO, and the offer of mediation subsequently made to France. Some contended that the re fusal of our mediation ought to be regarded its en, affront; but he contended no refusal of mediation ought so to be considered. The Right lion. Secretary cited Yawl on the Law of Nations, and stated that a mediator may interpose good offices, and even recommend the injured party to make concessions , with a view of' reconciliation. From that book, which had justly , obtained celebrity, it would appear • that in case, Spam • had actually been called on to consent to some, humiliation, the negotiator would not have exceeded his authority. . That however was not .the course.. pursued. The atediatitm of England. was offered with a friendly feeling to both parties. lf . Franee declined the offia of mediation, • it was because both parties were impressed with a belief that there was no eerpo. rate difference between them which was *abject to the common princples of mediation. The misunderstanding Appeared more likely to be . , satisfied by the good sense of either party than under the arrangement of mediation, - upon. a specific and tan gible object. In fact there was.no specific point for the common forms of mediation. If France had, by a coup de main, pus. sessed herself of Minorca, there would have been fair matter for the arrangement of peace, by recommending restoration and a compensation ; but where there had been a long course of unlimited offence, each party said—for God's cake disco. ver the means of adjustment, for my part, I know not how it is to be settled. The arrangement of the difference between the two countries was most difficult. The Honourable Member said the dispute might have been settled in case England had acted fairly towards Spam with a reciprocal application front France. It was forgotten that our mediation was refused by France, and about the same tithe the good offices of En g. land were required by Spain. 'There was a Note from M. San Miguel, in which our good osiers were doubted, but in the end were admitted. Ile relied upon the true meaning of that paper, because the lion.. Member for Westminster had misunderstood it from , the beginning. M. S a n Miguel com plained of the want of communication of what had been pass . His Note was dated the 15th November, Congress did not close till the ;Nth, and the moment it was ended, he tl,ought it his duty to impart to the Spanish Government, by its Charge d'Affaires, all communications as to what had been passing at Verona. lie assured them the disposition 'tibia Majesty's Go vernment was favuurable to Spain, but declined giving informa tion as to the subjects of discussion. Ile did so because they were still negotiating with other Powers on the Spanish question.— It was nut known whether the negotiation would LI propitious to Spain, and every man of honour would admit, that it would have been unfair to Spain, and injurious to the Allies, to snake known to Spain the disputes which arose. All information on these disputes must have injured liar. Would it have been fair to curry•favour with Spain, by telling her we have been fighting your battles, and the result is unfavourable ? his wish was,. that Spain should not know battles had been fought, and in that view he was desirous what was passing should not be communicated until the proper time. M. San Miguel, in his ignorance of the proceeding's at Paris, appeared to feel some impatience,' and it was natural he should discover dieap- • pointment. The expression used with reference to the con duct of the British Government was this;— ,, If acts of friend. ship are carrying on, why are they not disclosed ?—lle would Lit the House why not. It was not because negotiations were going on, but because if they •were successful, the Spanish Mi. nieter should not know that he was indebted to Great Britain for the result. The result, however, was unsuccesful ; and at • that moment a full. disclosure of the proceedings at Verona was matte. That tliscloSure, was the. foundation of another dispatch from ,San Miguel, in which it appeared 'hat the con duct of Great Britain 'had given' satisfaction. M. San Alive! said he approved of the course Great Britain had taken, and ad mittedahat site could notcomproinise the principles of neutra. lity. With the pen of conciliation Great Britain could support Spain without taking , her part in the war, which trust not interfere with neutrality. It way asked why Ministers did not notify to Spain that which s he .concealed? Ile had answered why, and repeated, that the moment the Congress was over, full communication was inade, tont ample instruction given as to our future conduct. Most true, and lamentable as trite it was, , that our representation to France was not successful. The lion. Member fur Westminster had attributed that failure to the in , terference of Russia, repeating that a bet was made in a coffl c. house that the Russian Minister would force France to a war. 11"1 ()USE, in explanation, said, the assertion was made on conjecture. Mr, Secretary 'CANNING observed, if it rested only on conjecture, he could have wished it had been so inserted in the address. He had however,understond an amendment was to be moved, stating that wh at t h e li on Member advanced respecting Russia was the eff ect o f b et . — (A l a ugh ).—The lion. Member for Bridgenorth had state d t h at France could not avoid the wet'. If that 'asserti on was corn er', it removed much odium front the French Go vernment . His Majesty's Ministers had been described as dupes ; because the French Government, from the beginning h a d one unite determined object in view. The English Alinist era at l east were, not the only dupes. M. Montmorency was sent to Verona t lie negotiated, with the Allies, and on his return was made a Duke, Three days he was turned out of office, and his dispatches assign , ed to other Ministers. So fat he .(Mr. Canning) blieved he -had been duped. He - really believed that the change of the Ministers in France was a change from war to peace. - It was not, however, so. I t was - c h an ging the question respecting Ettrope to the French question. M. Alontmortincy_ came front VeronA with the case of the Allies. The Ministers who succeed.. had a case to meet the French view. The question was no longer whether peace or war beat applied to the interests of France. M. Montmorency meat honourably resigned on the , Iground that he could-not carry into effect the principles Agreed upon at Verona. On the change of the French Ministers some disappointment ensued ; but surely that change.was no ground for calling the British Minietertedopee. In snch a.. variation of purpose, it was no longer a question relating to a corporate n o a r r e r n e but i n i3 • noteindividual to t 1 e q s Dukee sts . (4 T h e% i Due e n g ,n changed Io t. his tone, and M: de. Chateaubrianniat once said, the question was lout P MUM'S et Trorw els. lie believed M: de Chateau briand to be a' man of honour, and capable of discharging the . duties of his 'high situation. Whatever he might say of France, he owed it to the character of that Minister' to say, there was nothing to lead to believe he was any other than an upright honourable man. Ile owed him that statement, be ' cause he had unintentionally done him some wrong. A letter from M. de Chateaubriand to AL Lagarde, had been translated as stating that Lord Fit:roy Somerset's negociation had not reached Park. - He had_since received another text, in which it appeared M. de Chateaubriand had not spoken in the present, but in the , fatarre sense. 'Having corrected the ' inaccuracy, he should not do cinnplete justice -to that Gentleman if he omitted-to state another fact : he had just received a let ter on a subject- some time sinces brought under the observation of the House.- They tad heard ms account of the capture of Spanish corvette by a•French ship of =war, which it' she acted under'ordersonust have receivnl these orders at the very time 'the French Government were most warm' in their profeasionsaif peace. • If that had been the fact, he did uot feel that this court... try was entitled', to throw the dirt stone to punish such . an of By reference to the wars.of 171 m and 1006, k would be found this country had. not been the :most -regular in making captures, but 'it was satisfactory to know it 'was not so. The moment he heard of the transaction he sent •a message to Sir C. Stuart, our 'Ambassador 'at Parinotameke inquiry into the 'matter, and ask the• French Government for explanation. It waa' stated forthwith, and a telegraphic communication had been received. 'Theletter was from • M. De Chateaubriand, dated Paris, April 20, 1823.—" We have not received any thing official with regard to the capture by the Jean Bart. That yokel had no instruction to make an attack. If wrong has been done there .must be sonic • peculiar circumstances ire the itifair.— In any case the Government will see justice dune."—The .bight lion. Secretary thought it right to make the above known; because it chewed a readiness • to give explanation when it. was required. Among other triples in the debate of last night, it had.been stated by an lion. Baronet, that the Spaniard,: had shewn a solicitude to provide for alas safety of the Royal Fa- - unity. He could not admire the introduction.of that topic as connected with the conduct of Arguello. • - Sir J. MACKINTOSH said, in explanation, that the sub ject was introduced with delicacy. Mr. Secretary CANNING was sure his lion. Friend would agree with him, there could be nothing more fatal than to fas miliarize the mind of England or Spain to a disaster,which the Honourable Baronet must naturally deprecate. The Honour able Members who impeached the conduct of Uovernrerent, had contended that Ministers ought to have made propositions.which they did not make, and that having gone • to a certain extent in, tint negociation, they had no power to retreat. On that view of the question came the attack. With respect •to the Memorandum of the Noble Duke which had been the subject of so much criticism, it was the bearing of his manly mind 'not intended to meet the eye us the subject of debate in that House. It was the Noble Duke's own thoughts, and he was assured what the Noble Duke said about Spain might be believed. In such a case a person must have great har dihood to accuse the Noble Duke of incapacity. He trusted himself in the Noble Duke's hands, and whatever might be the - view taken of the Memorandum in that House there was not an individual in Spain who considered it as an offence. I wish to God, said Mr. Canning, part of the advice had been taken. He admitted the point of honour. Ile did pot feel that Spain was bound to make any sacrifice, yet he was sure, if they were justified in point of honour ui not consenting to modify their Constitution, it would have been romantic honour in England to abstain from making the offer to Spain which she thought might lead to conciliation. There were but two questions to consider ; one was whether the country ought to have gone to war, or whether it was not right to Mann. taint peace. He should not say fastidiously to the S'painarda, " whilst you have ideas of litmus, we cannot advise you for your good." They took a' wiser coinsie; they said ; reconciliation may take place by some concession to. Franca-. e in o , n t r h a C Dt o i n i fx s p t at i i t tcl u eti t y i , o w n p . oa — gu Constitution.—(!gear modify)a It was obvious that France had as much right to say we. will have our troops on the Frontier, as SpairtElind to .say, we will havi i n tu e t tl io y n, sta r t r e a d nc to e would I t t he w ir as Co d n is s t t remove leer - troops. It was mentioned in Lord Wel lington'snote to M. San Miguel, page 311, and in a note from himself, in page 42. He had no wish to distort the case, but to state facts as they really t w it e i r n e s . in I th h e e l y r negotiations, adtiey could d nott wg°ouldbeaypTL the w the o y f na halt •uot exceeded the bounds prescribed by the great writers on that subject. Vete!, describing what the duties of a mediator - were, said—" His duty is to bear well and second the claim to restitution made by the party injured, but he ought not .strictly to insist on rigid terms. Ile, conciliator, not judge, .ought to induce the injured party to relax something .for the preservation of pounce." Such were the duties of a mediator, and he might ask whether the British Government had been unjust in recommending the weaker party to depart from some. thing of their rights for the end and purpose of conciliation? They had discharged their duty fairly. Ni as it possible to look at Spain in -its present state and say England was wrong in recommending concession ? They could not forget the power and commanding figure of France ; a war in the heart of Eu rope produced a convulsion which all Europe. must feel. He was sure the House would give him credit for saying it was with great reluctance to proceed out of what Inc considered his true course. • He was anxious that the • policy of his Majesty's Government should not be misunderstood, and therefore it was material no misrepresentation should go un noticed. It wag raid there had been an endeavour to make the Spaniards violate their oaths. Two parties • in Spain • con. . tended for and against the existence of the Constitution. Its duration was limited to eight years, at the end of which time it was to be revised. Those who calculated from the date of the Constitution in 1012 said it expired. Others ••who looked only to its operation contended that it had not expired. Under those feelings, it. was the opinion of' many persons that the Spanish. Conteieution might be modified. It was the opinion of a Noble Spaniard who took part in the Revolution, that a modification might take place without a violation • of the oaths of the parties. Upon a persuasion that the change would be advantageous to Spain, his 'Majesty's Ministers made the proposal to modify the Spanish Constitution. That proposition did nut succeed. They had, however, one consol. ation—recent accounts from Spain stated some surprise' that. those to whom the prbposal had been made had -been so tena. duos. He believed he might go further, and say, he had rea son to believe Spain might yet be saved by reconsidering the proposition which in the fervour of national independence • she had rejected. The first communication. we made to Spain was, that she was not to rely upon any armed assistance from this country. That neutrality was the course we had adopted, wins the first communication e and the last was like the first front first to last there bad never been even a momentary variation in our language, never a single pause • during - which. Spain might suppose that we had any doubt. - Some llon. Gentle-. men had complained that they had done wrong, and only suit France ut her ease by our declaration of neutrality ; that this declaration was made to France on the 31st of March, and on the 7,11 of April she crossed the Bidassoa. As far as the dates went, this theory appeared in sonic measure to be borne out. But so far from that being the case in reality, France had never been informed that this Government had determined on neutrality. From the publications of the King's Speech she had been kept in doubt as 'to that determination, while Spain had been constantly assured that it was still maintained. It had been intended to - make the declaration of neutrality t • • but when the King of - France's Speech came to-ther knowledge, tie told the Frenth, Charge d'Affaires, that in consequence of the principles put forward in that Speech, the declaration should be withheld.—(hear, hear !)--Was that truckling. to France.—(Cheers.)-4I e saw that such principles Were carrying them back to the tunes when France had dominion - over Spain to the injury of this country. Ile therefore withheld the decla ration of neutrality, because it should not set France at her ease. Spain had never been deceived by them. But he feared, never. thelesa, that individuals - had hinted at 3ladrid, that if the Spa. Mali Government held out they would be assisted by Great Britain, who would be forced into a war by popular opinion. The Government, however, had taken no such course. Ana he would solemnly declare that nothing could add inure to the poignancy ta:feeling, with whicli he regarded the failure to pre serve Spain from war, than the solf.reproach of having caused her so bitter a disappointment. lie had now, he thought, esta blished beyond question, that the course they pursued was the best calculated to preserve peace. lie was aware that the greater position still remained to be established, that .peace was the proper policy. He had said before, that tine duty of Government was to weigh the question well. They did weigh the question well, and they decided upon that policy in re ference to these five consideration% : In reference to the state of Spain ; in reference Ao the state of Portugal ; in re. ference to the state of the Alliance ; and in reference to the general state of the world. With reference to Spain,- there was one contingency which had since arisen, and which they i he tl t o n s . n b n e t r h f e o r w W ar e .— stn4ins in te u r g , h w .) l t could not possibly foresee. This was to b e f oun d i n the s pe ec h prod a`s pain, uc m r e i s p e re s a e n s t u e d b i i d a y s ofo t constituents as willing to subscribe to a Man, and to court every sacrifice,. it' the Government would engage to mike it a war of people against Kings..---(A this was a small condition to which he, for one, was not very willing to accede; it would be a very similar measure teethe Decree of the National Convention, promising assistance to every people who would.endeavour to shake off their Govern ments. But perhaps the Honourable. 3lember would not find many to join him In bit chivalrous - desire of making such sacri fic ese Then the Hon. :Member rnight be situated like King James, between his two Bishops. The King asked one of them whether he might not take theinoney out of the people-'s pockets without. their consent 'r " Clod forbid that your Majesty should not," said Bishop Williams. His Majesty repeated the question to the other Bishop, and the answer was, " God forbid that your Majesty should not take brother Williams's money."--(A laugh ! )—No if the lion. Member might be put with any other Hon, Member, •say the lion. Member for Surrey, and let the same question he put to him. He apprehended the Hon. Member would say ;` " by all means ; take our brother of Westminster' s. " —(lsuge ter.)—The Hon. Gentleman had done him the honour of re felling to aim part of his political life to which he looked back with the greatest pride, namely, the part he took in erg t, the war in favour of Spain in 1803. The Right llonoureble Gentleman eloquently described the difference between all the eirtatinstancee of Spain and England - at that period arid at the present. But when they plunges' holdly into that war, had they no lectures from a certain quarter, no forebodingse no chastisement, for-the enthusiastic , ardour with which they risked the great interests of the country ? There was at that time a Sage who expressed hitnielf upon the subject to the fel lowing effect:—c' 1 cannot concede to the sentiments of the Noble Marquis, the inference which his declerations assumed, that, in order to warranted this country to embark in a mili tary co-operation with Spain, nothing more wits neeessiay 'then to chew that her cans,. was jnst. In my mind , my Lord, n passing judgment upon such a policy, it , was not enough that `the attack of _France upon the Spanish nation was unprincipled, perfidious ; and cruel; ' that the resistance of Spain was dictated by every motive honourable to human nature ; that it made every English heart burn with a holy zeal to herd its assistance against the oppressor. There were other consid.rations of a less 'brilliant and enthusiastic, but not less necessary and demand ing nature, which should have prccceded the determination of :ling to hazard the most zalualfrk inter, sts of the countrv. It is net, my Lords; with nations as with individuals: .Thoee heroic virtues which shed a lustre upon individual man, must, in t q l u ie o i t r a i - t tp io p n lica fr t o i l o n n to n s ti p ie eec co h nd b u y ct of nation", be chastenea bY re' i s l u cc p i p io ce n t s in o g t s p a a n i more s against g cautious rhtr. it tn ciee,, : a l lri calculating cast. -ViJs s ' cannot afford to be . chivalrous and r omantic."--rn i° is of H a co it fessed that inl.ligitlt Grey, I t l e y i d i v i : 1 , 1 41 . , ° i r s n i i n i t , the h i e eP : °ll l ll l 3i r es u nYlsl e l gr i, l e) it would gratify the spirit of a great man now no more, of see his prophecy reversed, in which he said the spirit of c H h u iv t al i r io y u w , ae wo n u o ld m i o t te d , el a i nd the reign of economists aad sPS: dilators. had arrived. That the reign of economists and cal ettlators had arrived, they all knew very well.—(A littfein)n see that in this very quarter the spirit of chivalry was re w , e li In reference tog pain then the preservation of ocflee wckl be be a blessing. din reference to France, he could not so cold-blooded as to look with icditference at what migin be the fearful . consequence. of a retaliation on the part of 5? 1 ,.. by invading her territories. If a war should be carried ofi n D . ,' . _ tween . them, in which the one party attempted topit? darts well-epringe of liberty, and the other aimed the pie) ell L' i " e oastfnar.,riteeditiv,luljitootioncno,iiiiithidwenatrroftua,reewposnglhaicienythtwaassiesntooill. settwieleherearrao, middle cet. T : i .; lie could not, . on the other hand, engage w h i t t ie l e F l ib i er t'l 3 rl) . recr such circumstances. Peace, then. was tli,:. pro Per thatPY all The Right lion. Gentlemen then proceeded to %hew , . 1 i , the other interests, those of Portugal, at the Alliance, o .n ' il l e a dcmd been deuntry, and ,the general interests of the woad, " ready f m w r oeo most n e t peace. With regard to Portugal, he stated that all ha ranee done which the -treaties. required, in obtaining the 3° l f ,he ea l tl . ot ' o r t agasctiti:kcepeenpdtot, support i tdt a le ; is cieserro country p a . nt i t t uo a attack kit wouldw u s n a n 1 lib: be, as ° w alls : e s ii i t) i t l in e! i wi ti t ; es the l . 1 h , t l i,,, ` . ‘i-e_ii drop c n l.l , tween the two countries.,, w suppose that we , must b • i ii,l l. 3 e ; a into the war because Portugal chose to assist Seta% :t , t , „ re , the Eight Hon. Gentleman Itfidtitich:ttattehiscefoPtianrttiryesoinfi.ll:,l,l`)niPrif; Earth the struggle from its own exalted station ; net s"r" of into the field as partisans, bat holding high the balance taut, Lice to all ; grasping, but not drawing the sword. if t r,,,, w , or i e g ing such position, they might still hope to be useful ;or; only that peace which they could not preserve. lie wou l dthe m otion call the attention of the House for a few minutee to but COoi„ itself, as it stood before them. There way no "In% . e , The dered the subject as one of the eery greetest int' ', rendered fitthoennnegoeczscsaiatriyoialidanitirrpeappelarrs, I; t 2 l o fff - th l l' e s'i:.', , rt t i .l . 33 e t ., , e , : i .l a s t b , ie c i n f : O t T w e n l : t e a v l e l r, fo co r iannpyetennietaasunrde properor it i t s b io r n a u oy pon ifhot ir i h fel f ; b e l tnir w t.u t i o wi fi tnn J t °l l .! any course which euggeeted itself to the that House were called upon to express an ornlu n su b st entiee subject, it ought to be at least conveyed in sa';',i dr ,, 5 , after • nt and intelliqible shape. Now what was °d i ! w i t h s wbich a moe fo t rul ear ig n h es t at, notice, ed after had been held un to those whom it was , n l f i a t f, c ty, that the veined noon the House to " represent to his '‘oilijeistude to Pr e : disappointment of his .Majesty't benevolen t ' hive , in a great serve g 4 neral peace, appears to this House tp,_.l., to make the measure, arisen from the failure of his 3linist!": iost t he pre' , e ta make wet' tended right of the Sovereigns assembled at Veronatie not on Spain on account of her political institutitoto:i,,ltion, and take the liberty to state that this was not a fai I sci_ lsi r„ French and solemn Pl utest 3N " that it was by nu means correct, because time 11: 0 !: course" Wan the menece- inibilato ? ~ war, and had not arisen upo a Verona case. I . " . The rtrin ti c le i pretension of the French Otia-v'enwnebtlieleennat 4,a t itg n ci e nSe n s Y StrUt : ll7C:l3:l:b:s°.C:e.ellin t "1; . pontaneout lawfully eujoy any civil privileges but front tiked the l ib e rty togrnt of their Kings." He must here agein , r iv a l de, AI sarthat the Address •V )3 not correct. Thee % lode ,' on ed whether the protest against the King's Speech, he doubt langtognee Hun. Member hineeelf would have used strongcr _ this yett r pi t es one la i it n i w do h w ic n h urpoennwasottrahernceosecaltsaiodnsbr beat Address, he had taken the very Jutguage of his CM ..nnca.„ie tab?, Nay, they could ascertain that lie would not, ff: t : tn , a _ 4 l ;n t s i s c ) disPotele—( Hear, hear, hear ly-elle stated the Y r _ t _ st i .,ration ; such 114 to 4 * strike at the root of the British- ;Jo!' was a skeil , and those were the v. ry words in which the Ifoose,._ nut hoe. upon this momentous °caution, to condemn than T o c on: ing employee' such terms as became the h o nour it to re pre 3 try.—(Cheers !)—'l'he Address further went of nrfr t ioe llousei r , 'tent to his .Majesty, that, in the judgment liars been l' ette . tene of more dignified remonstrance would t and t hor f calculated to preserve the peace of the Colltin en t 4 haear d ,„J, by to secure this nation more effectually frent there it en"' , being involved in the calamities of war." And „„ ? coo. Was this a British Parliament addreesing t h e e l ' o bro e e ve - of te a l , inn up a complaint that the nation MIN'III I tl , our aflee 9. and ' of courses giving at least a conditional a- 1 - 1 ,, tint ei, s cl u a l red r , i. becaust, lie should have to a dvise his 31°J;04111 met the answer to be given, and he was whichs lie , ~ ben ss know what to say. . The on answer occurreni; itone being suitable to the occasion was—" l'in verY sn ri ,Y. 1 0 '0 60 1 shame(i pointt il A lt:t t lu i c i e dhchwowchlchahcgr which laughter.)—This : t i e prs ' I 1 i b e a awiasn brought tine u i l i i s p o h upshot oi it. a 11 11 e t if : it I:,ti r obito e l 4 0f io : porfect security upon the justice of the cottntrye.,.., „nee f sure that their conduct, directed as it had been wf;V we old be interests ft h swi l)r e : 3l u , i i iici s r ul el ti i ro : d ed t t i hn e tl i te h igo l h w s c ie l hat N i su c ° t o t o : : ho wo u n isn U g l uu l a ;olt d eh n a h sc Utn it t h e n i or li °ll w% Y o u n , ta lios t t i. ti lPalY uo l i oc a l : l Wo vi dr U ti t i o r ' ° U rnu brdt 4 p wa r az i3 a l t y s i iti. t g ob ts' e ti l i c e es;i vo le r rn i ir e t n lt i tte i rl i : l ni l ai l/ la t e , . ni b v i e t ,z Y c ol) : : : ll:l , °tl : y t i ni p U l ttl w )it e sP : .ltte c ebe : :( l :ll : l l llti ec i(lt tg e:l , : : : : : w e ' i t o rt°: ? ilti q c :Bl.'d u r : e . 'l e eA l4a .t t i n . ‘ 'ed tiit 'il ie °l l s e i nw o 4cl efi n bint loe : t thn i lite fore the House. They had heard an able and clog:le: n o il" not tel. r , writing, right words in right places, that wa, ~ ona irs- -- e which the Right Hon. Gent. should have liirdw u helrotias pliers agliltti)i,lretai:Dy,rwaltdmiuto:koweblt jd.:a contend onitlint: eeinysvodas,ug. P i c :e d ailtdt h ns h t l ' wtrgi i: snyt sd i t a egt b a pil e ,rtanct e b li i:; :tc en ' te t :hx l , : i . t e - , l cli . o lliti onh i! t a l c i c ou r .t i . l l : . : l n :ii i n i , : : , , l . ,l : l l 3. o , ,' . ! , , , all. This was the great cause ot compratitt,,napnt7Arowilliiiehge.o. Right Honourable Gentleman hod not reMoven„: n `„, tiel . r : 1 , proposed to the_ Allied Powers by r' ra ,,''',l,l a'' e . ?, an ni e l e y t e o tsp l- :o s i r i a lt n i;r ee man i wd n afso w trh h e a ti tever treasures Ow may wee, `rte' s Villele was the head, and the latter was left to pursue his own modern were n et ~ Verona was the theatre upon which thaw so f op ae, !tight thco • which was now made more noise about by the n oon ~--- tlernan, than his own machine made when in °ne a r_ ettie bil4. l and we were now told by die author of that vigoro__sa " on ly toe, thatmlistodh:elrournot tten;ealrrotnyl;intostofroe%bnliciogyiet,eiliitcoootri;:g;;,;, adapted well, no doubt, to its purpoee, that li was truilnt; charged with the slight fault of not operating "'w en w hich in a noise. Now, one word upon the specified case,s , w u h i c h was ins allies would have interfered with Spain ; one w o o, trifisi en n the event of Ferdinand's safety being encialer not t he . lit deed, was the security for Spain. Wnuln or s one l e . 2 t r ar e lu n et i ho safety ns w t r a san disapprobatione f i r n om pub o i n i e c of ls have made s itlin i s t w e rs c i a x as„, j e ... ., :z ..ete e vr i s n a thei i 1 nine case—and have justified the Allied, grn r-i.74t their own opinions to make war was; nn e li e alse 3 large and whic , iro pulgr ty S P troops shall march whenever revolution menaces ,i, od ax on I Jo , turbs Spain. This principle wee avowed In i v ~,,, ion.. 3 ,0 which proved the victory achieved over tho Rig } i t I le li Were S., ,_ 0 'sowft.eehkap'teifirtlgthinaeasnseXietir°oornn:an:ocyn' iostetiirntwilninigs4 tl;itmivt!:lllei-:;::.,.eicti,t,o,:irs_asdntsfi: tleathefamtltenaerpfultnedhl.edTtdooistc?raoinithlseuerecatniotsnaB°htoeftlineereeo.ynigwgre:ol:siesisiedetifitenwrswteelril:eitehweijonlar._le ;or o i l i .i b ~ r , i the