The Sun. — London, England, 1812-04-25 00:00:00

gantry and Tenantry of Great Britain and trelancl.—u he prefaced the motion with a variety of ebserva- Lions, explanatory of •the grounds, and enforcing the arguments he had jdvancedf in the first instance,. as the causes of his introducing; and the reasons for inducis,g their Lordships to agree to the Bill, as an effectual remedy for a very gr, at and shameful griev ance. —[These, os well as the Bill itself, are already . before our rea d ers. ] D ot i ng a part of h i s speech, the Noble Earl produced much risibility, by his remarks on a letter which lie read, as part of his Former speech, being the sentiments of a great Lawyer on the subject, in a letter to another per- , seo on the subject, and which contained °pi llions in layouur of what he was about to advance. 'he name of the Great Lawyer who wrote it he then declined sating, but he now declared it to be the letter of a Noble and Learned Lord opposite - (Redesdale). Mier expatiating on the injustice of ' s uffering the law to remain as at present, through 'Which the occupying tenantry- were so much op pressed in Ireland, and telerring to a Arad on the r'llbjea by the Hon. Colonel Dillon, some commu nications from the Noble Viscount, his father,. and the excellent pamphlet, of Counsellor O'lledy on the - subject, in iluslraiion of his positions, the Aoble Earl moved, that the Bill be now read a se -eond time. Lord 11.EnsnALE, after censuring the conduct of t le person who communicated, for such a purpose, a letter confi.!eotially written - , and contending that nothing lie l t hd a dvanc e d i n t h e f ormer di scirss icrns ;lashed w i t h thc, principles arid positions in that ' t t€ 7 , said, he should not oppose the motion, hut, ' O r his part, suffer the Bill to go into a Committee, legally he would be happy to contr ib ute , if at a ll • 'gaily practicable, 'any way to alleviate the "evils e'liiplarn e d of ; but the 8 , 1 l as, it now stood, in stead of alleviating, would, he thought - , go to aggi-a 'ate those evils. Tate LORD CHANCELLOR shortly expressed his lear ned the opinions held by his N o ble a n d - ,earned F r i en d , and observed, their . Lordships •lolould consider well before they agreed to a tura illre Which w en t to over th row a great part o f t h e l aw of landl or d an d t enant , i n E ng l an d , S cot l an d , g"d Ireland. • Ti me s h ou ld b e a ll owe d for t h e pur -3e of further in q uiry and cons id eration o f t h e Inbj eci. „Earl ST A NHOPE -portly exp l a i ne d . tv . 4 :he Earl of L IVERPOOL seeme d muc h i mpresse d p it " what had fallen from the Nobl e an d L earne d ° Ws on th e su ble ct , an d un d er suc h impress i ons ul'osed to defer the Committee on the Bill until that day two months. b arl STANHOPE objeCted to so long an interval, th 'V tar too late a period for a due consideration of b: Bill this Session. He thought a month would a mPly sufficient. To this the Noble Secretar of y , _. St ate assented, and the Bill wa s accor di ng l y cott ined t o , r this day month. v 'l re Bills upon the tabl e were t h en respec itelY fo y rwarded—and their Lordships adjourned till 4ontia. ROUSE OF COMMONS. FR:DAY, APRIL 24.. 1 , The Irish G ra i n Distillation "'inhibition Bill, and Tobacee„-Ti p t-t.lay wart brought up, and. li e r , s.l ad 3 first and ordered to be lead a sec o nd ..e on Monda next. A Person trona the Office of Chief Secretary of St ate for Ireland, presented an account of the Ill utntter of Bank of Irtsland'Note s in circulation. Committees on the Scotch L 4 cat MHO t Bill, and on the consideration of the Lords' Messagt., re !petting t h e Fourth R-port of ihr East India corn. v a nY, were postponed to Wednesday next. Lord A. HAMILTON presented a petition fro m Ile Merchants of. Glasgow, against the Orders in Council. Mr. HOUSTON presented a counter petition from th e Traders and M .I:ufatiurerslof the sante place. After a few words from Mr. Brougham, the of the Excheq er, Lord A. Hamilton, Nr. 0 0 uston, and G enera l T ar l eton, t h e pet i t i ons were d ered to Be on the table. . d ry E O f the ECE XcHE CtURR gave no . that he r.voitld mov , .! for a Vote of Thanks to d Wellington, and the Gallant Artny who had 7 6 en Badajoz by stor tt, on Monday next. (The lice Was followed by loud Cheers.) CATHOLIC' QUESTION. (RESUMED DEBATE). d ll /e Motion for a Committe e t o i-quire into the at ° of the I r i s h C at h o li cs h av i ng b een put f rom e Chair B ir WILLIAM SCOTT commenced with vie-,dicat.. h u g the conduct o f ti . e ill ustr i ous U n i versity whiLh 4 e had the hon ,, ur to repres en t (O x f or d) f rom some a 5 had w hi c h were t h rown out on the former t ight. In contradidion to those assertions h e •NOuld %t a le, that there tA; as no community of men more Ir is tingrd s h e d f or t h e i r attachment to the Constitn -00, m ore unshaken i n their f i delity to the throne, and More firm in their resistance to the demands of sgal tyranny. They had ever been the forward il \;l;!ers of civil liberty and personal independence.— tth respe& to their Petition on the subjed before l e' House, it was voted by a majority of four to au rle, and th e wh o l e num b er o f persons w h o voted b a inst it was b ut 24 . I t was as f a i r a representa tion of the sent i ments o f t h at whole body as he be lieved it was of the educated part of the country in tLeneral. Upon the question immediately before 17 4 1, he should not trouble them at any length ; vd i c ould not help consideri ng it as one w hi c h was tii 'culated only to excite those passions which must e s i t urb the d omest i c tranquility, and to hazard the I , 4lu mity of setti ng fire to the country. Th ere was ti c' prob a bili ty of their corning this year to a different 4 ele rmination from that to which they had come in u Y of th e preced i ng years, yet they were told every yea r t that it must b e d one. T he constant answer of 4" Legislature -t o suc h th reats, was, t h at i t s h ould tti°l be done, so that the eifeet of those repeated ap cations was to keep up a continual warfare be he the Legislature and the Petitioners. It had satsaid that.thete was no clamour; but though s e re Was no clamour, them might be strong Sen tiOn, and lie was confident there was. But had 4 1 e Petitioners brought the. question any nearer to Bnucradjustment than in former instances Had they . t 'teted those securities which might have a tendency i l l ) allay the apprehensions entr tallied by some ?' Or \ tI N 44 they not, on the contrary, tetus . ed all securities, • , • even those which they Were willing to have.con ceded before ? So•far from granting any seciality. - they accompanied their claims with an' explicit de claration, that their Church should have a mark--d public encouragement ; must it not be apprehend: d,, that this request must mean, in other words, a marked public discouragement to the established re ligion of the country? The time had not long Nisi ed,- when it was thought a tundamentrd principle the Constitution, that the civil fabric should be combined with a religious establishment; but now , they were told, it was an absolute theory. He would ask in reply to those enlightened speculator.,, who would separate them, could Roman Catholic Chancellors, Roman Catholic Privy Councillors, and a Roman Catholic Parliament, be considered faithful guardians of a Protestant Monarchy ? He was sure that nothing could be more at heart with Catholics, if they were sincere, than the extinction of the Pro testant Religion. When he looked at the genius of Catholicism, at the .exclusive spirit With which it was embued, and the general principle it adodted, namely, !hat there was no salvation out of the pale of the Church ; he must say that they were not safe hands to be entrusted with the cate of the esta blished religion. As to what hal been said respea ing the Clutch of Scotland, it bore no application whatever to the Catholic Church, for there was a spirit in all branches of proletsantism wt ich allied them nearer to each other, and rendeted each less dangerous to the rest. They had to decide upon one of two propositions, whether all religions wire the same, and entitled to the same encouragement ; or whether, if one was preferable to another, it might not be unsafe to trust it into the han s o f those who were devoted to iis destruelion ? When it came to be:a question hOw far Llie securities we had should be given up, it was a grave consideration for every man's own mind, • It was easy to com pose a declamation, though not of so brilliant a de scription as they had heard_upon this subjeA ; there were general principles, plausible in theory, but in jurious in the practical application, on which it was not difficult to make a display ; • but he would refer every man to his own historical refleolion, - to de er mine how far power conferred upon such a sect :would be likely to promote those interests to which he was attached by education and conviction. They were told, that to accede to the motion, would have a tendency to reconcile the minds Uf the people. , -- In his opinion, the tendency would be directly the reverse ; the Committee would be a fund for party questions and inflammatory matter.— In all civilized countries, some religion must be secured in the pre..onderance ; and whateVer they might say of the benevolence of mayk:tid, and the mild spirit of religion, as long as human nature continued to be what it. was, religious p,ir_ ties would become political parties. Parties of description were the more yirtatela and dangerou s , as the% were not confined to the higuer c l asses alone, but extended their influence t( 1 .) every indivi dual in the State. Another a'gtiment insisted On was, that Ireland would be lost-; that flue whole country would be lost, if concessions were act! made. But how wirrhe to underst, , nd this threat ? Did the allegiance of the Hon. 'Gentlemen sit so loose up on then as to permit them to de , line the defence of the Statean suckan eve , a i II so, he must be per mitted to sav,alial so fir from being an argument in favotir of the privii. tees deinaiiied, it went d in Oa other way. It their loyalty, hung so loose about them, toey should be the lint i''er,s(Ln, he ieti arusti•d with p,ditical power. clu thoug,t, should be laid asit_-e one way or ; andwhile he gave credit to the Hon. Gentlemen on the other side, for their att-ntion ti.; the oublic quiet while in office, by omitting 16 bring forward this question, he trusted their sentiments would not , change with change of situ ition, aid that ou reflec tion they would see the inipropriety of pressiog if , forward at present. Mr. ELLIOTT disclaimed all notion of discussing the merits of the question upon the grou:l.l of ab• stra:t right. This question, hke all others, de pended on advantages and disadvantages, ou benefits and dangers. Tice arguments ,0 3 1iliSt the clroms of the Cal hides might be redive.i to three, classes ; first, the danger to be a ; •piehended twin grant ing them; .secondly, the contoitetional objec tions ; and, thirdly, the doubt which was en tertained of their efficacy, in case they should be granted. The 'chaOges witicit had of late y ears taken place in the world had rendered the danger considerable. There were di lon , er any apprehen sions trout the Pretender,.&c. and . as to the doubt which some persons entertained of their oat hs,.the proposal of an oath as a prolec.4u) against their al leged disiegard .ot them was rather a clumsy expe di,nt. He wished to see the country as plwerful as possible, and - for that purpose he ,vould recom mend, theme Church should throw pen' wider the doors of toleration. With respect to the allusion to the last Administration, all they did was to keep otli the question, in consequence of the prejudices known to exist.against it, and he was one of those who gave the Roman Catholics such adviCe, but the pre sent was a more auspicious period—the P:ince Re gent, to whose hands the Government was n ow en trus'ed„ possessed., the confidence, and excited tire expectations : of the country , ; was a golden oppor. tunity not to be lost. To ref Use the motion would be neither more nor less titan to refuse to consider the question. . . Mr. Youxe wished the measure could be granted with safely, for he possesesed every favourable dis- . position--towards his brethren he Catholics of Ire land. When be and those who thought with him were represented as labouring under a cloud of pre judice, he thought the charge might be easily re torted, as 4t depended upon the arguments to be ad- duced. The subject was most important, but it app,ffated to him to lie within a _ very narrow compass. Those who differed , from the motion might be permitted, without being called Pro testant bigots (a term ve r y liberally bes!owed), to pause before they agreed to an alteration of the fundamental laws of the realm. He was urprised to hear it stated that the riuestion had nothing to do with fundameatal law, and proceeded to read sotne extracts from`-the Bill of Rigins,,,trom which he (erred it to be a fundamental iii*V of this country, that we should be ruled by a Protestant King, and • that Papists should not. govern the country. The onus probandi lay, he thought, with those who sup ported the measure, to shew that no danger result horn it. He, for one, Was tar from being satisfied on that point. He next quoted the Als of Union with Ireland ana Scotland, which .that the Protestant religion shoti.ld be that 'of the Siate. It was not a question of right or fulerm , On, but of political power. He was one of those who looked forward to. the ultimate union, as lie might call it, of Protestant and Ca tholic ; but the more he thought upon the sub ject, the ,more he was induced to bel.eve that first opinion were were hastily taken. H, then quoted the letters which passed netwe,.n the . Vicars /Ws ' toile and the Catholic Committee, respecting (he oath prOnosed in Lord.Redasd3le's Bill, to shew the ascendancy of the Catholic Clergy over their flock, the Clergy having prdscribed and forbidden_ the oath, notwithstanding (he clear arguments of the Committee in its favour. With respect to the Veto, was there a man' who doubted that it met the approbJtion of the Laity, bta that the Clergy refused their sanaion ? The. Bishops and the inferior Clergy, he believed, had the most ab s'olute power over their flock: The question of the influence of the Papal authority was kept in the back ground; whiah afforded matter of proof 'hat the question was of much consequence to them —he thelefore complained that, not Withstariding the Pope was of so much importance, no, - I . e of the Ca tholic Bishops had come forward to explain to whom, in case of a stccessor being chosen (the. Pope al present prisoner), they would - give their allegia;:ce. It had been urged, as no argumeut in favour of ; Committee, that if Ireland was intimidated, then a separation might perhaps follow. If the House were to give way in any one point more than an other, the fear of the d.inger of intimidation was the one which be should be most desirous not to -con -cede. Once give way, and the next thing they would demand would be an establishment - of their Did (he House think that the present Mea sure, if acceded to, would satisfy them ? He be lieved not ; for if the Priests were not satisfied, no thing effective would follow. By giving way, greater sacrifices would be 'expeLled, so that in time, a Catholic Parry might gain seats in Par liament. own Mr. BROUGHAM - contended that the opinions of the Right Hon. and Learned Gentle'man, who open ed the debate, were not justified in fairness. ,He had sta'ed, that the effect of the granting the prayer' of the Petitioners wsoutd be to overturn evety prin c'i'ple of the Established ChOrch of the country. That was not their object. In Opposition to the opinions of an obscure writer, which opinion's the last speaker had read, he would quote the ReC e ord of the Statu , es of the Realm, - as the best answer that could be given'. By those Statutes, they were en joined to take oaths, which prevented them froM •eing hostile to the Established Church, and to those oaths they subscribed. They swore I" to abjure any i'tentiOn of subverting the Established Church,. by att, 'opting to place the Roman Catholic in its •stead ; nor could they exercise any privilege to • disturb the - Protestant religion, but would Maintain' the Ftrotest ant Government to ,the ut most of their power." If the Church was in danger, that danger was appare nt at every :election ; for when the Parliament conceded to the Catholics their eleCtive •fratichse, they gave them the potyer c,f electing Catholic representatives. He saw no tears of that kind to be entertained. He did tn,,t feel that all the original ties would be suddenly disio,Wed. The Catholic felt he was aggrieved, and xerctsing that feeling ;• he would not dissemble, but speak out. The people of Ireland were in a state Of - degradation —they asked to be admitted to a participation of the rights of subjects, in common with the rest of the Empire ; they were told at the Union, by the Noble Lord, then the organ of the. Irish - Government, thrt their complaints should be attended to;. they were promised a boon, which boon in faCt was their jnst and lawful right, but ,they had been deceived: The new era had arrived, previous to which promises ~had been made, and pledges held" out (rain a quarter to which no tea so; vile suspicion could attach; but in the hope which the Early Friends (he meant the People of Ireland) entertained that the accomplishment of their wishes would succeed, they were again deceived— promises were broken and forgotten, and they came to the House-for redress. • Mr. L FOSTER took a review of the question from historical tads, as it .respeeied Catholicism in Ireland, froni the reign of Philip the Sc.cond down to the prpvisions of the Parliament of Ireland, which pl'ocided for the better'.education- or. the Catholics. He 1 / 4 4 . as persuaded that many of those. who .warml k asset led the Catholic cause, did so because they felt it to be necessary to the maintenance of their political powsT that they should adopt the wishes of those whom they desired wbe their followers. His rea son fdr voting agai,:st the concessions was, that the Catholics were determined to have all from us, and to give us no' tring. Sir. GRATTAN explained. Mr. Su Aw was disposed to think that it was doe to the feelings of su large a, hotly of his Majosty's subj,•ets to go into a Committee of inquiry into the grievences of which they complaned. He however, as much inclined as ever, to look with a je.dons eye, to the security of the Protestant Esta- Wish:neut. Colonel DILLON declared, that in Ireland, many who had hitherto been inimical to the Catholic claims, were now most favourably disposed towards the Sir S. RONULLY observed, that whenever the Ca-1 tholic question had heretofore been brought before Parliament, he had voter: for it in si lence, conscious that there were many much better qualified than he to express their senti tnetits on the subjea. Many ot the aneient Ca. iliac tenets he abhorred.. The former persecu tions of that church were dreadful ; but his ab horl'ence' of persecution in others should never be tray him into the comniission of persecution him,ell. The Catholic religion of this day was very dill sei,t from the religion which was held up by the opposers at- the motion as a just cause of apprehension. h had been• asserted that the Catholicism of Ireland was different Itom,that of any other country. Why refuse an inquiry into that difference ? It was asserted also, that the priesthood in Ireland had a more than ordinary influence - over the people. This was at tributable to the disabilities und,:r which they la bonred, and Would he removed by their aboln intr. When the House saw that by one ad they could heal the division's which existed in.lrtland, and pre sent the fatal consequences which might Otherwise en'sue . , he could not persuade himself that they would refuse at least to go into an inquiry. Mr. Put.Lgit observer}', that t!te non. and Learned Knigl , t had certaioly got a retainer froni . the I) s senters. He had inalm one of the most extraordi nary speeches he had ever heard. . He was astonish ed .how the Hon. and Lo'arned coul ! have swallowed the Tit Atl, and all the other oaths which Members of th it- H use were ohli,zPd to take. Sir S. Romtt.r.v• replied, that if the Hon; Gen tleman had been 'wormed that he was retained by the dissenting- ir west, that Hon G-Aulemat t had been ittform.'d of a-gross fross fllsHiond. As to swallowing the oaths imposed on Members of liar- Lament, he would just observe, that V had been educated in Church of England p'inciples, that be always attended public worship in aChurch of Eng•s land, and that he had never, even from motives of curiosity, been in a dissenting meeting. • Mr. FULLER expresse I himself mkch obliged to th - Hon. and Learned Baronet for his, explanation, and complimented him on the extraoiditn:ry- feeling which k. had shewn on this o4•casion. Mr. W. SMITH was not at all ashamed to s•y that a Dissenting Meeting was the constant place in which he worshi.iped. -He stood in the House, not having violated any oath which it was becoming in him as Dissenter, or which , t was necessary tor him as a' Member of Parliament, to take. Ad verting to the petition which he had yesterday presented -from Dissenters of various denomina..• tions; he observed, that it was presented at this par. titular time, to spew that the peti loners were not aatiated by any sel fi sh feeling. He proceeded to consider, tlfe question immediately before the House, and maintained the necessity of acquiescing in the motion. He contended also, tiro_ stia jr:sti e and sound policy required that rhe.srate of the Catholics of Itelar:d should be well considered, and that even More should be done than was now talked of. A discontented People, under a discont,nied Clergy, Would be much better tools in the hands of Buotta , ! p,ote, than a contented People under a Clet - gypaid oy the Government, and taken care of.by them, Mr. Pot.r-pa explained. Mr. HERBERT (of Kerry) was . one of those who conceived there was no great difference between the two religions, and thought no danger was to be' ap prehended from granting 'what the Catholics requir ed, and, therefore, gage his most decided support to the motion. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Sir; 1. should certainly have permitted the questinui to go to a division without offeri-g any sentie ments of mine, upon it, (•for I feel how 'lm possible it is to say any thing which has not been already advanced) had I not been anxious to state a few cii - curnstances in reference to the arguments which have been adduced on the present and Ott the preceding evening. I wish it to be distinelly under• stood, that -any opinion which S may express as to the present time not being the fit moment to con cede the claims of the Roman Catholics, implies in it no-declaration that that o f inion is' unalt, rable ; on the .contrary, I do not rejea the possibility, I even-anticipate the probability of circumstances oc curring, which may materially alter the sentiments I now Profess. I wish it also to be undeistOod, that in avowing my opinions on this que;tion, that avowal will hAve no influence.upoo any per son who may be connected with the Goveriotie , ,t 5 though I have eiery reason, to believe it is the ge neral feeling of all my colleaeues, that this i5...1 ot the moment for granting to the Catholics of fieland their claims. I mention this, Sir, because ,-,;e hate heard a great deal - to-night of pledges that have been falsified, of faith that has been broken, and of hopes that have been excited only to be mocked with dis appointment ; but I feel considerable doubt whether I ought not, when those c1r. , ,..s were made, to have put it to the House,- whether they. were what could with propriety , admitted into the de bate. I cannot conceive, ;tacked, that because of the conduct pursued by the . Irish Parli meat, in 1789, during the agration ot the Re gency- question, or of the mann - in which tit it conduct was received, any 'fling- like a pl-dge as to the concession ot the Catholic claim s could hein ferred. To me, nothing can be more false.in 136.1 or more unconstitutional in principle than this doc trine. Whatever was done in 1789 by the Irish Parliament, respeaing that oje, t, nothing certain ly was.done for the Roman Catholics, for in 1792 heir Petition was rejected . by the Parliament of Leland, there being, ,only twenty - lit e in favour of it. Supposing, however, that after that period any person . bad collected 'the opi nions of an illustrious personage as.to the justice or expedieocymf• granting those claims, is it to be in fered from hence that he had involved' himself in any Qledge, from whi h he could not conscientious ly recede ? Will it be said, that before he comes to the throne such a pledge might be elicited (roux hito ? Do Gentlemen mean to assert this mean to maintain such a constitutional doctrine a s This ? (Hear, he a r from the Oppos i tion.) . should like lb knoW.from the Constitutional Law rs who cheer ihesinesti-n, whether they will in form me who was the .confidential adviser of such pledge ?—(Hear, hear !)—ln proceeding, Sir, to consider the subject immediately before the House, I really do not know bow I- cat) expect to be attended to ; for it has been so often discwsed, that every topic of argument seems.to be exhatis ed. 11 is of importance, however, .that the House shoukt know precisely the question which. it has to consi der ; but what that question is, will nut, I apple bend, be easily understoryl ; for I have not heard, either from the Right Hon. Gentlethati who nsa,ie the present motion, or from any of. those who hive supported it, what the duty of the Cormnittee 4.hich is called tor, will be. Inde , d, I hardly know, f i - oin the abscure.terms in which dr- Right Hon. Gentle man enveloped his motion, whether the Committee to be one of the N hole House, or a Select Com mittee ; though the impression upon my when I h,••ard the motto(' was, that Select Com mittee Was moved for. I could wish, if I migir ha permitted to ask the question, whether I am rigin in this conje6iurel? Mr.ORATTAN spoke across the table, and mated ha, he believed he should subsequently move tor a Svlea Committee. Mr PERCEVAL— Rigl,t Hon. Gentleman_haS not ?et tor rn , :d is own opinion as to his comse will ht., and House must surely feel some stir prtse, in learning hat the ii.iture of the measure is yet undec even in the mind of the proposer. If it is to be _a _Select committee, I would ask, is it possibie that we can delegate to a Select Committee, the examination of all the Jaws relating to the