The Sun. — London, England, 1837-12-08 00:00:00

etent of religioue persecutioe to the injustice thus signifier!, ,and tell the people of ireland that it is your determination, in tat/Piil a t i e of the nhe feelings of the great ajority of them, to resin v .. otestant domination in that country, and then your Work be co eplete."—( Cheers from the Ministerial r , es. resp on d e d to b y l ou d express i ons o f di sse:i t f rom th e issition. ) The words of the resolution were, " That of the ret u r ns l a t e ly ma d e t o th e I m p er i a l P ar liament ,;_ s in u Ireland h ave b een o bt a i ne d b y i nt i m id a ti on —( cheers lrin the Opposition)—personation, a nd polling the votes of s bad and unentided persons." One accusation they I T left ou t—th e accusat i on o f b r ib ery .—( Cheers.) The 'gnity even of the framers of that famous petition could rv a.l throw int o th e i r accusat i ont h e c h arge o f bribery.—( Loud i continued cheering.) What was the next allegation put I of f orward in th e reso l ut i ons ? H e wou ld n e t read the whole , e ,'. , l Tm—he would confine himself only to those parts of them supported his view.—( Laughter and cheers from the ea rested The latter part of the second resolution was „s :—" Arad thus it becomes prebeble tub t res:ed in these ter the feelings and wi-hes of the Protestant elsctor of Great B rit iin—( Loud cheers from the Ministerial benclics)—may e oaerrub•d and set aside by the votes of tea or twelve Irish :CP , esentativesi whose very title to, the seats they occupy is more than questionable." This was the foundation of the sub s'ri~ lion ; this was thee origin from which it flowed ; this was t he ba s i l upon w hi c h i t stoo l . — (Ch eers. ) Th e so l e groun d . the subscription was that " the feelings and wishes of the -,otestant electors of Great Britain might be overruled and set aside by the votes of ten or twelve Iri,h representatives." f`e,(Cheers. ) The Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter r W. Folleq) told them that this wns not a question he w( en the Protestants of England and the Roman Catholics ° r Ireland. W a s that the fact?—(Cheers.) Wss it any thing more than a shrinkieg I ern the fact, when the Hon. and Learned M em b er f or E xe t e r came forward and said that '_e, forsooth, would oppose the conspiracy if he thought it involved any question between the one' religion and the other..-.-( Hear, hear.) But the resolutions did not end !.,t the p o i nt a t w hi c h h e l as t ceased to read from them ; i uley proceeded ia these te.ms :—" That the vast expendi i:we incurred by the Protestant candidates for the city of Mablin, in the Election Petition of 1335-1836, renders it un reasonable to expect of them a similar sacrifice in the public Cause on the present occasion."--( Hear, hear.) Why I should be mocking the House if I were to read farther evi- Cence..._( Cheers ) The Editor of the Standard..is one of the censpirators.—(Cheeis ) The Editor of the Standard is ?lie of that body which the Hon. Baronet ( Sir F. Burdett) has this evening so very properly called " the gang."._ (Cheers.) The Editor of. the Standard boasts of the time which he had devoted to arouse the spirit that give rise to the s ubscription. The Editor of the Standard closes a very e arnest recommendation in favour of the subscription in these Word s —" We would say much more in favour of the system of which we are advocates, but in the statement we have made we fe e l we have said enough to British Protestants."—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) An instance—a single in stance bad been given by the Hon. and Leaned Member for Exeter of a general subscription of this kind. But the sub scription in that instance was of a very different descrip teieon. It was stated right well by the Noble Lo rd the Member for Doraester ( Lord Ashley) that the present strug gle was a struggle between one class and another. It was I ndeed a struggle of that kind—a struggle in which the English Protestant nation was called upon to put out the r epresentatives of the Irish Roman Catholics.—( Cheers. ) That we.; the plain fact ; and he could conceive nothing more unworthy than the shrinking from the avowal of it.—(Minis terial cheers.) He was ashamed of the Hon. Members who shrunk from it. Was it not distinctly stated in every one of the newspapers which were the advocates of the Protestant Party, and in every one of the subscription advertisements, t hat the object of those who subscribed was to defend the P rotestant interest in Ireland against that of the Roman Ca tholics ?—(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter was in correspondence with the Committee ; had they i nstructed him to deny that fact ?—(Cheers.) The Corn tnitee put forward an address, in which, after wuch talk about t he claims of Protestant candidates and Protestant consti tuencies, they said, " Without an appeal to Parliament, they (the Protestants) are reinediless."--(Cheers from the Op- Position.) Oh then they had their remedy by appealing to Pailiament.—( Renewed cheers from the Opposition) What Was he (Mr. O'Connell) endeavouring to show ? He was e ndeavouring to repudiate with all the contempt that the t hing itself merited—he used these expressions entirely sepa rate from any personal disrespect to the - Honourable and ' , earned Member for Exeter, which he was utterly in capable of entertaining—but he was endeavouring to s how with all the abhorrence which the thing me rited, that this was an English Protestant conspiracy, put forward against The Catholic constituencies which had 70 Members for Ireland. - -(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) There was not a linen in the streets who would not laugh at them to-morrow, if they were to pretend to tell him that that was not the ob ject o f the subscription in aid of Irish election petitions."— (Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) He had no great respect, therefore, for the manliness which shrunk from the avowal.—(Cheers.) It' the object of the subscription were fl good one, let it be avowed ; if it were not goad, let it not 150 prosecuted.—(Cheers.) The Irish were too shrewd to be deluded by it. They well understood the real object of the subscription. The iron of former wrongs had entered deep into their souls, but this additional crime would live in their vivid memories.-L(Cheers.) He had heard from the H onourable Baronet (Sir F. Burdett), in the strange ram bling speech which he had made that evening — ( Lou d cheers t r b lin the Ministerial benches) —and which contained some he hadf every thing and a great deal of nothing—(Cheers)— thi heard from the Honourable Baronet, to be sure, that w as not a Protestant subscription, and that he had a great respect and friendship for the Roman Catholics of rei and—(Cheers)—and then, in two minutes afterwards, he began to talk of Popish Priests.—(Cheers from the Ministe rial benches.) When the Hon. Baronet talked of Popish Priests, did he forget that upwards of 1,100 Protestant Priests had put their names to this subscription ?—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches.) What he (Mr. O'Con nell) wanted to enforce upon the House was this—that tl e People of Ireland had a right to consider this subscription as a Protestant conspiracy to deprive them of their rights.— ( Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) When he said that, did he mean to tarnish all the Protestants of England as con cerned in the conspiracy ? Oh I Heaven forb id l—( Laughter from the Opposition.) He knew how to mak e the distinction b etween those who had subscribed and t hose who had not. "le knew the honour and integrity of the one class—he knew Otat amongst the other there were many who were ready to try . any disputed question, not by its mer its, tut b y the length a nd • strength of their purses.—(Loud cheers.) " For my „ c ' s wro part," continued the Honourable and Learned Gentle " I have resources—(Cheers from the Opposition)— ` "ow it, and lam proud of it. If t he Hon. Baronet ( Sir E• '• Burdett) pleases, I am the patriot of Ireland.—(Great Cheering from the Opposition ) I stand in this unexam- Pled position-1 have sacrificed the largest professional e moluments that ever man made - at the bar in Ireland. I sacrificed it when at the period that Roman Catholic emanci pation was carried, I bad as fair a prospect as any other of the ermine and dignity of the Bench, provided I abandoned Politics for ever.-(Cheers.) Because I forgot my ease and pave up my prospect of the dignity of the Bench, am I there tore to be vilified and abused by every old renegade ?"—( Loud a nd long continued cheering.) A single offence—nobody knew it better than the lion. and Learned Member for Exeter sa single offence—a single act might not perhaps be regarded 18 illegal ; but when that act was extended over a grea t er sur face, and made to assume the shape of a combination to per petratea, a serious injury against any man or any body of men , ` ls e parties so combining were guilty of a crime; and he pitied th e man oho in the Court of Queen's Bench w ou ld at stopt to say that there was not sufficient evidence of mainte blll" ee and conspiracy to go to a jury upon this subject ,— e ) The Hon. Baronet ( Sir F. Burdett) had referred ' Lthe history of his younger days; but alluding to the glory his youth,he seemed now to address them in the spirit if ° °t in the words of the ballad— " Pay the sorrows of a poor old man." --- (Great laughter and cheering.) The Hon. Baronet said, t 1 see nothing at all inconsistent or improper in contributing a the expense of a prosecution, and afterw ards bein g one of j tlages in the case—(Cheers from the Ministe rial Benches)— ,e.°thing unconstitutional in a man's becoming both prosecutor gin the same cause.—( Renewed chcerine.) There W ee; phases in human life which showed man in so'lamentable condition as to render the sight pitiable—almost disgusting. (Cheers from the Ministerial benches. Loud cries of th °l I.e from the Opposition. ) He should not ha ve alluded to lion. Baronet's early life if he haul not introduced the l 'ject himself. What was the case to which the Hon. Ba :net had r e f e rred ? It was a case in which he ( Sir F. Bur eatt) had been returned by four hundred fictitiousivotcs -heers)—a case in which the Sheriffs who polled these votes th er e sent to Newgate.—( Renewed cheers.) And what was 5 0 subscription in that case ? A subscription only of th e le ctors—of men directly interested in the election; and the d e fence was that they were electors, persons directly interested eit ryeloping the Hon. Baronet's Friends. That was the eei e .an which the Hon. Baronet said there could not be two b p rntons upon the subject as to whether it were a breach of L i , ti lege or not. That there should not be two opinions L i i t `ween any two men upon the subject was not improbable ; eh o,. t ,lae astonishing part of the affair was that the two opinions T h md exist in one and the same person.—(Great cheering.) It st , "on. Baronet had talked much of Roman Catholic priests 43: I ng taken a prominent part in the Irish elections. He (Mr. dot e cinuell) wanted to know whether the Protesta nt cler gy had -taken a prominent part in the elections in England.— cers, ), ) Then the Hon. Baronet spoke of religious assern -14: in Ireland ; but had he never beard of a wood en bible i t4 a gilt crown upon it being exhibited in the dickey of ge coach ?—( Great cheering.) Did not the Hon. Baronet 1 . 1 () ; , that that was net a real Bible, but the imitation of a t e i o t c, composed of the cheapest timber, of nothing more e lm Ile than a piece of Canada timber ?—(Great laughter 116 1 c leering.) Here the Hon. Baronet took great credit to Rat self for his high-mindedness. " Yesterday," said he, " I s ell . '4 out of the House, I felt too much delicacy upon the sat je . e ,t -- -. 1 would not vote." The [lon. Baronet when he tlenat, thought, no doubt, to obtain great credit for his nice I s''ey and infinite prudence ; but he ought to recollect that if bound by " a pair" not to vote at all. —(Chee rs.) The tub'Baronet had given a sad description of Ireland—he said N o ;43thing in the world resembled what occurred in Ii eland. Sa‘ Q uoulat strange things had happened there. He ( Mr. le e ennell) remembered once reading the report of a speech t b y somebody about the year 1802. In that repert it " The Honourable Baronet took a hasty view e !ne . Conduct of the Administration with respect to e ‘itißd enormities and cruelties committed in tie sister kiat• (he said) exceeded anything done by Nero o r B Nn g • —( Continued cheering from the Ministerial e s. ) Who was it that said this ? A Baronet of the e ef . - "nes, but whose Christian name was Francis Bur _.,._ clett.—(Renewed cheering.) Such was the statement mode by Sir Francis . Burdett Jones, with r, spect to the conduct of the thee existing administration towards Ireland. But he did elr,mething of that kind more than once. In the same year, speaking again of the conduct of the administration in the go vernment of .Ireland, he said, " Recourse, therefore, was had to the disunion of the rects." He (Mr. O'Connell) im plored some of the Hon. Baronet's very loud cheerers on the other side of the House just to attend to this former opinion of his respecting the origin of their favourite institution: " fie. course, therefore, was had to the disunion of the s..cts, and the papering and racking system was adopted, which expelled from their habitations thousands of faMilies by a process the most atrocious. A paper was posted against the doors of the Catholics, commanding the inhabitants to quit in five or ten days, and to proceed to the province of Con naught, or they should be sent to hell; and this was the revival, after a century, of that faction known under the name of Orangemen. These mandates not being at first complied with, the fanatics who had issued them re paired to the houses of tie unfortunate Ca holies, ousted the whole family, and racks d and set fire to the miserabla hovel and its contents. Such transaction could not fail to attract notice. Many of the authors of them were committed to prison ; and his Majesty's Attorney-General was sent to the theatre where these tragedies had been acted to prosecute the offenders, who were all acquitted, except one, and he was pardoned." And then a little further on in the same speech the Hors. Boronet said, " When I reflect upon the enormities which have been committed in that country, I really feel . ashamed of my species, ashamed of being a man" (he bad no occasion to be longer ashamed ef that)—(Great laughter and cheering) ;—" but when I consider (he continued) that they have been supported by English power I feel ashamed of my country—When I recollect that a British Minister in a British House of Commons has dared to vindicate the use of the tor t ire which even the Inquisition has at length through shame abandoned, the last of infamies seems to be an Englishman " ( Cheers.) For e ? For the conduct of England to wards Ireland ?—( Cheers.) How did the Hon. Baronet seek to amend that conduct now? Who were now his cheerers and applauders. The members of that very faction who com mitted all these enormities—all these cruebies upon Ireland. Great cheering from the Ministerial benches, and cries of " Oh" from the Opposition.) Were they not the same party ? Did they nut still hold their exclusive meetings ?—. (Cheers.) Did they not still assemble at their dinners2a—( Re newed cheering.) If the re were any difference it was only this, that the party now went even beyond what it did for merly. Yes, the party which the Honourable Baronet now takes up is that very party which some years ago he reviled as the pet petrators of so many enormities in Ireland.—( Cheers.) The man who now came forward to traduce Ireland, and to join in a conspiracy against the Irish Members, ass that very man who, in 1802, made the famous speech from which he (Mr. O'Connell) had quoted.—(Cheers.) After some further observations, which were not distinely audible, the Honourable and Learned Gentleman continued : Was it not as evident as the sun at noon-d-ty that no man expected a fair decision from the Committees of that House ?—(Cries of " oh 1" from the Opposition.) Ask him for his opinion, and he woad , give it. Wait till the first Committee were struelee and if - they did not hear the coun sel on both sides, and 'every Member of the Committee tell them beforehand what the decision Would be, he (Mr. O'Connell) would never Again venture in the field of pro phecy. He had heard it Stated that Members on both sides of the House perjured themselves in Committee. The Hon. Member for Ripon'had said that that was a libel; but he did not say that it was untru e . If t h ere were not some strong motive, why did Members throng the House when Commit tees upon election petitions were to be balloted ? Why did they come there but to watch each other, and to see that they did not place themselves .in the scandalous position of being ready to sell their consciences? In aid of this came this sub scription, aimed exclusively at the representatives of the people of Ireland—aimed exclusively against the Catholic party, in order to bring them before a partial tribunal. The people of Ireland understand it. You have been attempting for there three hundred years to Protestantize Ireland ; what progress have you made ? You say that the Protestant religion is the best. If it be, and has most argument in its favour; what prevents you from propagating your system? What has this, your Protestantism, done for the people of Ireland ? Why, it gives a sanction to every injustice towards the people. We must not have the political franchise—we must not have political rights—we must not have municipal in stitutions—and why? Because these things may shake your Protestantism to its foundation 1 Oh, shame treon such Protestantism I—a Protestantism whose efficacy is placed upon Mayors and Corporations.—( Hear, hear, hear.) And more shame upon the present system of the Commit tees of this House, in which men, under the sanction of their oaths, are able to abet the efforts of a faction against the representatives o: the people, aided by the Spottiswoode conspiracy—without whose aid it is possible they might have escaped from the infliction of a party Committee—which is yeur only chance of succeeding. It is thus you wish to give encouragement to Protestantism. If you will take the trouble to read the report of the Committee on the petition from the City of Dublin, which Committee lasted eighty-six days — and I have no reason to applaud that Committee, but I won't censure them here—you will see that they refused to open the registry, and the present petition attempts to open the regis try. Why, it will require the entire amount of the subscrip tion to maintain the case against the City of Dublin alone. No doubt there will be another call made, and no doubt the Honourable Baronet will give a second subscription. When we recollect the object for which that subscription is intended, and when you refuse a Committee to give us the opportunity of knowing how many among yourselves have contributed, is it pos sible that an impartial tribunal can be obtained? I have looked over the list of subscriptions, and found at least ninety or one hundred anonymous subscribers. Now, I should be glad to find who they are, and yet you refuse a Committee to inquire into this.—( Hear.) How can I hope for a-Committee when it is declared that the Government will not support me? What will you do if you insist upon a division ? Will you insist upon a division? Give me a Committees and let me get out the facts of the cost of ti.e Dublin Election Committee and of the present subscription. What did Mr: West and Mr. Hamilton pay towards the expense of the last Election Commit e ? Mr. Hamilton told me that he did not pay anything, and M e West said that he paid but little. The funds came from elsewhere. (Hear, hear.) lam exceedingly glad the Hon. Baronet has taken his seat where he now is.—( Hear, bear.) He was long enough on the side of the people without belonging to them, or sympathising with them. He talked a good deal about bringing home justice to me, by visbieg me with the criminal law ; but the criminal law has never applied to me, a though the Honourable Baronet has himself had the advantage of suffering under it.—( Hear, hear, hear, and laughter.) He has talked about the warmth and indiscretion of his youth, but I believe he was older than I am at present when he pretended to be the advocate of the people. His repent ance has been exceedingly late—( Cheers.) Now, I call upon the House to look at the subscription as it really is. Is it not, in fact, constituting those who are to be the judges of the question to he also the prosecutors? I care not what the e cnniary interest is ; but can anything be more improper thin that the party prosecuting the petition should be the judge to decide upon it? Sir, the people of Ireland understand the whole question. They know that these petitions are against their representati ve s —t hey know th a t it is an aVi tional insult offered them, that it is an additional insult in tended to them—they know.that the object of this conspiracy is to afford the means of obtaining, through the instrumen tality of the oaths of Members of this House, a decision which is to make the Tory party triumphant, and to make the people of Ireland their vretitns.—( Loud chests ) Mr. D'IS RA ELI then addressed the House. The Hon. and Learned Member fir Dublin had taunted the Hun. Baro net the Member for North Wiltshire with haying made along, rambling, feeble, wandering, jumbling speech.—( Laughter.) He could assure that Hon. and Learned Gentleman that he (Mr. D'lsraeli) bad paid the utmost attention to the remarks which had fallen from him, and he must say, without intend isg to make any reflection upon the Honourable ll:ronet by any invidious comparison, it seemed that the Honourable and Learned Member had taken a hint of the snyic and manner from the Hon. Baronet in the oration which ho had just ad dressed to the Houso ; for it appeared to him that there was scarcely a subject connected with Ireland that could possi bly engage the attention of Parliament that he had not introduced into his oratorical rhetoric.—(Laughter.) He had also taunted the Honourable and Learned Member for Exeter, because he had travelled out of the record of the case; but where had the Honourable Member himself tra velled ? He had travelled back seven hundred yrars—(oh, o e )—when they were met to debate upon transactions which had taken place within the last few months. They had been favoured with ars allusion to the poor-law.—( 64 Not a word was said about the poor-law" by Mr. Hume.) Well, they had at all events been treated with a dissertation on the Irish Corporation Bill.—( Hear, hear.) He did not pre tend that he could accurately remember every topic which the Honourable and Learned Member touched upon.— (Cneers and laughter.) If he did not speak of a poor-law for Ireland, he at least did of the Irish Ccrporation Bill. (Loud laughter.) He appealed to the House whether — the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had not given alight dissertation upon Irish Municipal re hear.) What were there in that relevant to t f li cr e , m n ?__ a ('leer, n. O would d n o t Learned allude, ' for he wished to spa re the lle H wo Hon. the present question?--t(hielfeele feel' rihesaory Gentleman in that re s p ect—(Loud laughter and the Hon. and would not allude to the subscri p tion w nd cheers)—he little for the b Leareod Gentleman had n ow told the mwas not itotstuecrcneessss with which It might acc ount a th which he viewed the more succe ssful efforts of the much-vilified Mr. Spottiswoode.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) He indeed eve ry Liberal Member was to would ask the Hon. Member for L incoln whether he attended that meeting where it was said subscribe 50/. ? That Hen. Member migh t g ive the House h souse if e curious inf o rmation upon the subject. .Evene bad not subscribed f rom hi s ow n purse, the result, instead of being 3.0001., would have been at least 2,9501. —(Laughter.) But now it appeared that there was nothing in the Exchequer, and this project of maenanirrous mendicancy had vanished. — (Loud laughter.) The Hon, and Learned Gentleman had announced that the Spottiswoode subscription, a; it was now universally styled, was a Prot es t an t su b scr iption. It might be a Protestant fund, but it was essentially a defensive one. The Hon. and Leerned Member had told them that 150 clergy men of the Church of England had subscribed, and he had contrasted the conduct of these clergy meg with the con duct of the priests of his own church. Now he would defy the Honourable and Learned Gentleman to produce an in stance of, the odious and tyrannical interference on the part of the clergy of the Church of England similar or dangerous to those which were imputed to the clergy of his own church.—( Hear, hear.) If the Honounble and. Learned Member doubted what he was saying, he would ask the Hon. and Learned Member to produce a volume like the volume laid before the Intimidation Committee, Let him THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, DECEMBER 8, 1837. brine a volume from the wards! of England, from C'ornw , l: .awl Yorkshire, which could rival teat psecious code, awl then ha (Mr. D'lsraeli) would admit that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was justified in charging the Clergy of the Church of England with conduct similar to that which was the sole cause and sole origin of this subscription.—( Hear.) If this were, in the odious sense of the expression, a Protestant cause against the Papists or Roman Catholics--he must say that Imo facts had been brought out in the course of this debate which could possibly show it. Every Member could siith perfect justice use the epithet employed in the original manifesto of Mr. Spottiswoode --(Oh, oh, and laughter.) 1 shall not (said the Hon. Gentleman) trouble the House at any length —( Hear, hear, and laughter.) Ido not affect to be insen sible to the difficulty of my position.—( Renewed laughter. ) I am sure I shall receive the indulgeece of Honourable thtlemen—(Continued laughter, and cries of " Question, qu :stior.")—but I can assure them that if they do net wish to hear me, I, without a murmur, will sit down.— ( Cheers and laughter.) I must confess I wish to bring th e side , et of debate back to the proper point.—( Renewed laug' ter.) I cannot comprehend why a considerable body of her Majest)'s suleects—respectable cot only from their num ber, but front their intelligence, their station, and their integ. r:ty—ehy they should be held up to the scorn and odium of this House by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman for pursuing conduct the leg dity of which he has not presumed to ques ti, n—the propriety of which I humbly apprehend that they are as competent to judge of as the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman himself, and the expedirsev of e 'rich I think the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, after what he has confessed, is the last Jerson who should impugn.—( Hear, hear.) ! have ex amined this list ; I have some personal interest in the question, so far as I am the representative of a town that has contributed the largest sum to that fund ; and I do not find that the subscribers are among the aristocratic class—with a very few exceptions I find they are among the middle classes, men of moderate opinions and temperate tone of mind--. (Loud laughter)—men in fact who seldom step out of the sphere of their private duties—( Renewed laughter)--men at least who have seldom mixed in the practices, and have rarely been inflamed by the passions, of the political world. I have but one more observation to make. I am, I confess, anxious to make that observation, for it is the first thine that I have been able to make one in vindidation *of her Majesty's Government. —( Hear, hear, and much confusion.) I wish I' really could induce -the House to give m five minutes more.--(Roars of laughter.) I stand here to-night, S 4—( Here the noise in the House became so general, that the lion. Gentleman could not proceed fer some time ; when the confusion had somewhat subsided, he said)—l stand here to-night, Sir, not formally, but io some degree virtually, the representative of a consider able number of Members of Parliament.—( Bursts of laughter.) Now, why smile ?—(Continued laughter.) Why envy me ? ( Here the laughter became long and general.) Why should not I have a tale to unfold to-night ?—( Roars of laughter.) Do you forget that band of 153 Memaers—those ingenuous and inexpe ribaced youths, to whose unsophisticated minds the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in those tones of winning pathos—( Excessive laughter, and loud cries of " Question.") Now, a consi derable misconception exists in the minds of many Members fak.tiliS side of the House as to the conduct of her Majesty's Government with respect to these elections, and I wish to remove it. I oil' not twit the Noble Lord opposite with opi nions which are not ascribable to him, or to his more immediate supporters, but which were expre.sed by the more popular section of his party some few months back.—( Question, question.) About that time, Sir, ashen the bell of our cathedral announced the death of the Monarch—(oh, oh, and much laughter)—we all read then, Sir—(Groans, and cries of " Oh") —we all then read--( Laughter, and great interruption) —I know nothing which to me is more delightful than to show courtesy to a new Member, particularly if he happens to ap peal to me from the party opposed to myself; at that time we read that it was the death-knell of Toryism, that the doom of the party was sealed, that their funeral Obsequies were about to be consummated. —( Laughter.) We were told that, with the dissolution of that much-vilified Parliament which the Right Hon. Baronet had called together, the hopes and prospects of the Tories would be thrown for ever to the winds, and thst affairs Were again brought exactly to what they were at the period when the hurried Mr. Hudson' rushed into the chambers of the Vatican:—( Laughter.) Ido not im pute these sanguine views to the Noble Lord himself, particu larly because I remember that, shortly afterwards, the Noble Lord, as if to check the new and sanguine expectations of his followers, came forward with a manifesto informing them that the Tories could not expire in a moment, but the Mi nistry in a Reform Parliament might depend upon having a working majority•of 100, which was to be extended upon great occasions to 125 and 130. Now, Sir--(" Question, question 1") This is the question, and I am going, to ask the Noble Lord, for our instruction—(" Oh, oh !" and great inter : uption)—we only wish to know this simple fact, whether the great occasion on which the working majority was to increase from 100 to 125 or 130, is upon the question of an Election Ballot?—(Cheers and groans)--and whether the Grenville Act has not been held up to the odium of the country, and whether it has not been given forth to the people that it is impossible that an impartial tribunal can be obtained in this House?—(" Oh, oh 1" " Question, ques tion !") If Hon. Members think it is fair thus to interrupt me, I will suhmit —( Great laughter.) I would not act so towards any o.le, that is all I can say.—(Laughter, and cries of " Go on.") But I beg simply to ask—(" Ohl" and loud laughter) Nothing is so easy as to laugh. —( Roars of laughter. ) I really wish to place, before the House what is our position. When we remember all this—when we remember that in spite of the support of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman the Member for Dublin, and his well-disciplined phalanx of pa triots, and in spite of all this, we remember the amatory echo gu • (roars of laughter)—.the old and the new loves that took place between the Noble Lord the Tityrus of the Treasury bench and the Learned Daphne Of Liskeard—(loud laughter, and cries of Question,")—which appeared as a fresh instance of the anzoris redintegratio—(excessive laughter)—when we remember, at the same time, that with emancipated Ireland and enslaved England, on the one hand a triumphant cation, on the other .a groaning people, end notwithstanding the Noble Lo-d, secure on the pedestal of power, may weild in one hand the keys of Saint Peter, and—( Here the Honour.. able Member was interrupted pith such loud and incessant bursts of laughter, that it was impossible to know whether he really el-sed the sentence or not.) The Honourable Member concluded in these words :—" Now, Mr. Speaker, we see the philosophical, prejudices of man.—( Laugh ter, and cheers.) I respect cheers, even when they come from the lips of political opponents.- e -( Renewed laughter. ) I think, Sir,—( Hear, hear 1 and repeated cries of " Questioe, question")—l am not at all surprised, Sir, at the reception which I havezeceived.—( Continued laughter.) I have begun several times many things,—( Renewed laughter,)—and I have often succeeded at last.—(Fresh cries of Question.a) A y , Sr, and though I sit down now, the_ time will come when you will hear me." [The Hon. Member: d.livered the last sen_ term. in a very loud tone, and resumed his seat amidst cheers from the Opposition, and much laughter from the Ministerial benches.] Mr. D. W. HARVEY and Lord STANLEY rose together, and there were lul cries for each. Ultimately Mr. Ha. vey gave way, and . Lord STANLEY proceeded to say that he was extremely s,rry to interpose between the House and the Hon. Member. Before, however, he entered more precisely upon the ques— tion, he trusted that the House would allow him to ob serve that he had had no communication, either direct or indirect, with the persons who formed this Association, except that he had received a copy of the prospectus, nor was he personally acquainted with any subscriber ex cept the Honourable Baronet the Member for North Wiltshire. With this exception, he knew not the name of any individual subscriber ; he need scarcely add that he was not a subscriber himself. He had watched, however, with great re gret the growing disposition of the country—arising naturally from the great strife existing between the different political p sties, sad from the excitement which always occurred when parties were equally balanced--of carrying on everything iti election matters, from the registration to the day of election, by means of associations.—( Hear.) Both sides of that House had promoted such association, but still be considered, their incr ase an evil which ought to be guarded against.—( Hear.) He Lad no partiality to these associations, and he was deliver ing his conscientious opinion upon them, and when he objected to their formation, he dist so upon principle, feeling at the same time that they had become an inevitable evil. —( Hear.) His lion. and Learned Friend the Attorney-General agreed with him that it was improper to appoint a Committee upon the present subject, and the reasons which he had given for his opinion were 'no doubt conclusive upon this point ; but he had stated, in the course of his address, what appeared to be a still stronger reason, for be had given his legal opinion, founded on his intimate knowledge of the law. '1 he ATT 0 RNE Y-G ENE RAL--I quoted the judgment of Lord Rosslyn. Lord ST ANLEY— Undoulkedly the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had quoted the judgment of Lord Lough- borough, but it was upon the general bearings of the law alone, as it might be gleaned from decided cases, that time. Honourable and Learned Gentleman had rested, when he laid down his doctrine—(Hear, hear)—in the presence of the people of England, that the gpottiewoode Society was an il legal Association—(Cheers) —that it was open to prosecution —( Hear, hear) that the circumstances connected with it were of a highly-aggravated character—the facts were plain and palpable, and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would not do his duty if he did not commence immediate legal pro ceedings, —(Cheers. ) What I should the Queen's Attorney- General, knowing that an Association existed of a mischief ous character, that the facts were undisputed, and that its ille gality was certain—( Hear)—allow such an Association, un molested, to infringe the constitutional rights of the Queen's subjects ? Should he be bearded by as Member of that House rising in his pl ace an d avowing birefelf a Member of the Association, and offering himself for prosecution 7—( Hear.) With all his knowledge of the law, and of the illegality anti mischievous tenden c y o f t h ese assoc i at i ons, wou ld t h e Q uee n's Attorney-Ciene, al leave the offence entirely unpresecuted ? (Cheers.) He (Lord Stanley), however, thought that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had a lurking suspicion that the judgment in the case of the Duke of Portland did not strictly apply, and that in the courts of law that judgment was of tnireh that i fghiestb6poisisaid eeiiumersced a nroie ble authority—that he lurking uponing as suspicion cution he would not have obt a i ne d a ver di ct ; an d h e had, n h o ad t therefore, exercised great prud e n ce i n a b sta i n i ng f rom a pro sccution. But he had raked up the doctrine of maintenance, which he (Lord Stanley) believed was a doctrine of a very old date, and eirpoee ollselete ip prectice.—(No, no, from the Ministerial benches.) Then Id: the Iloa. dud earhe . 4 - He-man try the case — (Cheers)—let him see whether be could obtain a verdict.—( Renewed cheers.) Although he (Lor I Stanley) was no party to the prescht subscription, yet, cothmon with other alembere of filet Roust, massy of whom he then saw oppoaite—(Cheers)—he 'nest plead guilty to the charge of having on more than one occasion contributed money to esetblish clectiee funds, to be used ter c biet ien purposes —( Loud cheers.) Ile recollected that he had coetributel, in the year 1831 cr 1832 a large subscription, not fur _canning on an individual election, tut generally for supporting candidates in the different counties and towns in England who were favourable to the passing of the great measure of Parliamentary R ..form--( Hear, bear) —and in doing so he had acted in common with her Majesty's present Ministers, and he believed a large majority of those who supported them.—( Hear, hear, hen-. ) lie would act go ov: r at length the ground t iken by his Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for Exeter, who had conferred a groat favour on the House by the manner in Which he had called up, one by one, those gentle.nen opposite who had entered into election subscriptions, but each of whom had discovered so ably, anl with such acute discrimination, the entertaining and in,tNietive difference between his own case and the one at the time under discussion. The Noble Lord the Member for No to D von had contributed to some fend of this kind, or at least if he had not contributed he had headed a subscription .paper pith the view of obtaireiag :end soliciting funds. " Bet oh," said he, I did it entirely from private friendship, I was no party to the election, but I was very .much interested in the result." The Honourable Member fur Brirlport had been next appealed to, and he avowed that from London had proceeded a call upon the Reformers of Euglarrd in general to subscribe for the purpose of presenting a petition against an individual return. ___(" For an election," from Mr. Warburton.) Yes, it might be for an election, but he (Lord Stanley) would ask whether the balance was not applied to further the petition.— ( Hear, hear.) The Honourable and Learned Member thr Dublin had made an ingenious use of the speech of his Noble Friend the Member for Dorset, when he said that this subscription presented the strongest ground and the most forcible reason for doing away with the evi's of the pre sent system. Now, it was contended that by a general subscription, or the contribution of a wealthy individual, for no distinction could be made in the c.:ses, the sub scribers had equally the power of paying the necessary expenses of an election, or of the subsequent pro ceedings of putting the less wealthy individual to great and improper expense. But if they forbad all assis trine°, what would be the result? Would the poor man be protected? No. The wealthy man might carry on with, impunity an expensive and vexatious litigation, whilst the poor man, who needed the supply, would be deprived of all power. —( Hear, hear.) Would they allow men to subscribe to the election, would they prcveet assistance beyond the return ? If they complained of the expenses of the present tribunal, let the House apply a direct remedy, but let them not prohibit the combination to do away with the ill effects of this expense.— ( Hear, hear.) Let them beware that bv removing whet was an apparent injustice, they did not produce a still greater. But the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had discovered this nice distinction ; in short, every G4l:tlemazi had drawn a very clever excuse for his own acts. In one case it was pri vate. friendship; the temptation of the Hon. Member for Bridport was, that he represented the leading Reform town in the county, that lie thought the exertions of his consti tuents were worthy of encouragement, and he was neces sarily put forward, not to promote purity_ of election, but to give his' pecuniary assistance for election expenses. Another Hon. Gentleman had said, " It is quite true that I subscribed, but then I lived in a neighbouring county ; I did not know the particulars of the election, but of course I fplt considerable warmth about it"— ( Loud cheers.) Another Honourable Member said that he had eollected money gene rally all over England to carry on the elections in England, but that his Conduct was no precedent for the Spottiswoode Association, because his subscription was for the purposes of the election, and not for a petition.---( Hear, hear, hear.) Oh, these purposes - were very different. " You may give all your money legally to obtain a seat on an election ; but if the re turn be fraudulently opposed you must not defend it, you must not proceed one step further."—(Cheers.) This was the dis tinction, but it was so slight and so flimsy that it entirely escaped the most acute power of conception which he ( Lord Stanley) could bring to it. Again, the Honourable Member for Dublin said that there was some difficulty in the -law of maintenance, and so he would not put himself into the scrape of entering upon that question. It was true that he had done his utmost to promote a subscription among Irish Members, who did not form part of the constituencies, and who had no interest in the places applied for, although they were Members and candidates.—( Hear, and cheering.)" But it was before an election, before a dissolution, and when the Sovereign was still alive, and when, according to the Noble Lord who last night rose so high upon this point as to reach almost to sublimity, before they could possibly judge of the merits of the petition.---( Hear, hear, hear.) But then it was better there was an election, and it being be fore any question was pending it was perfectly legal and right;—( Hear, hear,)—and the Honourable and Learned Member had given most valuable legal advice without fee, for Mr. • Spottiswoode had only at that moment to collect a food and apply it at ttie next election on any vacancy, and, according to the Ifonourable and Learned Gentleman's doctrine, he would not be subject to any punishment.— (Cheers.) But was this shift quite correct—was the case as the Honourable Member had stated it? He held a speech which had been delivered by the Honoureble- Member in his hand, and At the very time the Honourable Member had made the proposition he found that two petitions were pending, to both of which he invited the attention of Liberal Irish Members—( Hear, from the Opposition benches)—and he would read it in terms to the House. He who had such a holy horror of any man coming to the House with the possibility of any bias on his mind, and sitting on any Committee on an election petition, had used language which he would repeat to the House. The Hon. M. mber said—" Early next week the Committees to sit on the Longford and Carlow pe- • titions are to be balloted for, and it is necessary that every Irish Liberal Member should be presont in the ]louse. In Longford the greatest triumph whicli the popular party had gained had been achieved, and no doubt the Tories will attend, in order to render nugatory the advantage which has been gained. From this spot, then, I pronounce any Irish Liberal Member who shall be absent from the House on the 11th to be guilty of a gross breach of a most important duty. This is a subject which will admit of no compromise, of no pairing off; and I shall hold every Member who thus neglects to assist men who have sacrificed their property and the interests of their families for their country to be persons for whom no political punishment will be too great." He (Lord Stanley) used this extract on the present occasion only because the Hon. Member, in that very sp eec h, recommen d e d a f un d to b e raised, knowing as he did that two petitions were Fending, and because lie now declared that he had subscribed at a period before any election petition was presented:—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He came now to the objection that this was an Irish question, that the fund was raised exclusively for In land, and Irish cases. He would not contend that the English had no interest in the result of the Irish elections. He would not say that the Irish Members did not exercire an influence— ishen he considered the position of parties, he . would say, a baneful influence—in that House : he said it in reference to those to whom he was opposed.—(Hear, hear, from the o,;poiition.) It might be important to every member of the community, and it was not a matter to be lightly con sidered, that in that portion of the empire, as in this, the returns to Parliament should be the genuine returns of the constituents.-( Hear, hear.) But there were in Ireland peculiarities in the law, and the fact was not denied ; there were peculiarities in the system of registration, defects im properly allowed to exist, which rendered much more easy the perpetration of fraud than in England, and at the same tim e which rendered proceedings b fore Committees more difficult and more expensive ; and where this existed was it singular that the Association should look to that quarter in which the greatest struggles were made, and that they should apply the subscriptions raised to that part in which it should seem most available ?—( Hear, hear.) There was no doubt that there had been in Ireland for a long time a Reform As sociation, or a General Association, and no doubt that week after week "rant" was produced there, but to what pursta e that was applied the House could net know, although he had no doubt that many lionoureble Members, but it was impossible to say how many, were indebted to it for their seats• in this House.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition -benches, and cries of ‘. Oh, oh 1" and •• Name 1" from the Minis terial side of the House.) He was sure that the Honourable Members who called upon him to name those to whom he alluded as having been returned by this means were Irish men, for he never heard in his life a niore palpable bull than that of which they were guilty, He bt h he a er d sm% j ev u l s r t e( A s t a bl i a d uusa t that it t turned, was and he to called say uponli(s tomany l name" cm Elc must say that he thought -that that secret application of funds was a most dangerous part of the system which existed in Ireland, and he must say so in vindication of the general subscription. —( Hear.) Then he was told that it was a reli gious question, and that, as such, it went to excite a feeling of animosity. He did not mean to say, and lie sincerely re gretted the circumstance, that in the Prospectus of the Asso ciation the term .‘ Protestant" was used ; he could not wander at its being employed ; he could not blame the parties for having used it; but if it should be said that it was a Protes tant Association formed for the purpose of opposing the re turns of Catholic Members, he would say that the facts of the case would refute the allegation; for if any Hon. Gentlemen would look to the petitions which had been presented from Ire land, he would find that a very large proportion, he believed 12 or .13 out of the 17 presented, were petitions against Pro testant Members---( Hear)—and that two of them were peti tions presented on the part of Catholic constituencies. But if it were meant to say that it was a subscription so far entered into on Protestant grounds, that it was fur the purpose of increasing political strength by means of election petitions, presented by those who desired to defend the Protestant religion, against those whom they believed to wish to over threw it, and that the fund was t r be applied exclusively to that portion.of the empire, in which they thought the Parlia ment try institutions in this respect were weakest, then to t trm m it a.. a n Protestant Association was no matter of rebuke to any Hear.) He c a ll e d upon them to oonsider these mat ter§ before th e i Pntideroned unadvisedly any steps which had been taken, an before they shifted from the Government the duty whicn belonged to it, by introducing a fixed and definite law upon the subject.—( Hear, from the Opposition benches.) Mr. D. W. II ARV E Y stood there as beloagiug to neither aTV; and he c ou ld see tin cli:;itinoq3 Iletwoen v.eturns for ny place iu Ithiglaiid or in Ireland; there was no distinction whether the return was for an English county or an Irish county, for a Scotch city or an Irish borough : all were in the British empire, and he repudiated any suggestion that he was not interested in them—that he felt no interest in the_ suilifiet of Irish elections because he did nut iteptesent a nity ‘ . in that It ' ,4ir.:!ioL e th rn e be C r m s lt rri i te . l;i l ng .i lp fr a c t 4 's 4 o e n 6 i t e l);' ati 4, !p l ic t i h ot ' s li t:o u i s ;r ll Z a a r n o d f thnn but for their patriotic aid,. English - freedottl have bena lost ! lie del - ilea the t illegetiore and the feelings of every Member of the liouie should be the same, for whatever place he might be returned. Bet was it not clear that the expenses of elections were enormous, and the expenses of in quiring into the merits o: them before Commhtees were ge nerally so ?—( Hear, hear.) Were not • these concessioas, made reluctantly, stifficie t to justify an itrep..iry by eh it means hereafter the m at t er m i g h t I re a l tere d ? 'And it was with tiries.object that h • pr. sent ed himself. He did not he sitate in saying, from his personal experience., that no tri -1 until ct u'd be compared in unjust proceedings and tree sl onsibility or character to ,Committees of the Helm but one. Ili 1830 a petition was presented against him on the ground of his- not having a quaiification, although no doubt exited whatever of the suffiLiency of his pro e eety. lie s.rt on Iris return to the house ; but a petition having teen prcseeted against him, he was about to enter the CornreLtee-room ashen • t're inquiry teas about to take place, when he was called aside by the King's counsel who was engaged against him, aid he said that he was instructed to meke a eropesition to Lim as a condition on which the petition should be whit:hewn. He in quired what was the nature of the propotinee, atet he was in formed that it was that he should forego proeeedings which he had cemmenced aeninet the Corp ra!mn of Colchester, and which he bad institeted in the Court of King's Bench. [Ls • anawer was, " I defy you to aasail my seat, however doulful it may to, because I will not stop the proceedings." The reply of the King's counsel was, " You know of what u Committee of the House is composed, ant being neither a Whig- nor a Tory, your fate is doomed, and, you will lose, your seat." And he was unseated on the petition. The petitioner alien, who was the acesoa who had op posed him at the election, applied ,to be ,placed in his sea t, but • this - the Committee refused, for they said, " Although he has prayed to uns 'at the sitting,- Member, he has fcrgotton to pray that he may be seated himself." This staggered and confounded them ; and though four of ate Cannnittee w. re found to vote in favour of giving the petitioner his seat, the majority were averse to it. The Petitioner was astonished at what he considered the negligence of his agent ; and though he (Mr. Harvey) was unseated, he forebore to go down to the place and canvass for the seat. After the affair was over he (Mr. Harvey) was called cut of the Committee by Mr. Peter Moore, who told him that though he had been twenty years in the House, and during that time frequently on Comeittaes, yet that he never remembered to have oitnessed such flagrant injustice as had been exhibited by that Committee towards him (Mr. Harvey). " But," added Mr. Moore, " this comes of your being no party man, fur the Committee was so nicely balanced, that, with the exception of m)self, you had not a single friend upon it. "—( A laugh.) Now, it could not be suppose! that wain such impressions as these on his mind he would stand up as the ad, create of the eke don Committees of that fleut:e, but what he stood up for was this, that an inquiry 'should be institute', and some means adopted by which the ruinous expenses which were con fessedly inseparable from contested or controverted elections shOulti be done away with —(Hear, hear.) At the present moment no man could stand a contest in any borough, city, cr county of this kingdom but it a serious expense. The Noble Member for Do.-setehire had himself admitted that so frightful was the expense of inquiry before Election Committees of that Hous', that he had been actually led to contemplate the re signation of his scat rather than incur so heavy an expense, and that he should have adopted this course had not powerful friends interfered. It was not belonging to all men,, how ever, to hale powerful friends. It was admitted on all sides - that the expenses, both of the original carteet and of main taining a seat; were so enormous that even the heir to a title and to a great eroeerty shrunk from entering upon them— (Hear, he ) fie (Mr. Harvey) would ask the House, than, whether it was not high time to enter into a sin cere and searching inquiry. into. the causes of these ex penses both of the original contest and the disputed seat, for the House must recollect that however much they might have reformed the process by which men - were returned to that House, by simplifying the regis: l nti on , by a bb rev i a tin g , the period duri ng w hi c h a contest might last, yet, as far as regarded a scrutiny before a Committee; all the expenses remained unchanged and undiminished. Was the House disposed to lessen the' expenses, and would it consent to a Committee to inquire into the means of doing so? It was simply with the intention of ascertaining this that lie had risen. Not that the debate of the evening had not aff,rded many and various topics on which for any Member of the House to dilate to any length he pleased, without any apprehension of being called to order for departing from the question.—( Hear, bear.) If any Gentleman; not having heard the motion real by the Hon. Member for Limerick, had listened 'to any one of the speeches of the night, excepting always that appropriate and singularly neat and compact speech of the Hon, and Learn d Member for Exeter—(Hear, hear)—.he might very fairly have presumed that the House was• discussing a motion for the House to go into a Corranjttee of the whole House to consider the general state of the nation--( Hear, hear, and laughter) —for scarcely any possible topic hal bc en omitted, save, indeed, the precise question before the House.--(Re newed laughter-, and cries of " Hear, hear.") He (Mr. Har- Vey) would, however, throw aside all advantages arising from this temptation to enter into - tho wide field and discur sive range of suggestions which fancy or feeling might supply, for the purpose of bringing the House to 'what he considered the practical view of the suhpet ; and, whether it were palatable to the Howe or not, it was his intention to take the sense of the House upon it, and with this view, and in order that at that time of the night - they might have really something to discuss—( Cheers and laughter) —and that the country might be able to appreciate the nature of the subject engaging the attention of its House of, Commons, it was his intention to move, by way of amendment--4 A laugh)— That a Select Committee be 'appointed to consider of the mea. s by which the expense: of contested and cont-overted elections maybe avoided. Great laughter arAl inte.euetion.) Now this was a question which waul•l well justify ant adjourn ment of the debate, for it was one wliVeli teettired to be ma .turely-conaidered ; and, as he had said before, all the pre%iatis dire ission of the evening amounted to nothing —( Neer, beat., and laughter.) No man. in the House could support the ori ginal motion—( Hear, hear, and laughter) ;—for • hewer:A touched it might be in silken terms, and however much the subject m'ght be set forth in fine terms, by its advocates, ho considered it was a direct censure on the Han. Member for North Wiltshire.—(Loud Opposition cheers,) The lion. Member concluded by proposing his amendment. • Mr. T. DUNCOMBE seconded the amendment, amidst a confusion of cries of " Divide, divide;'' Question." Question." The question havine been put, Lord J. RUSSELL, though unwilling to detain the House at that period of the night, felt it is duty to rise to say tint he should vote neither for the original motion nor for the amendment.—( Much laughter.) He begged a. few moments' attention while he stated the grounds oa whica ho felt it irn pa,sible to support' the original motion,—( Hear.) He was of the same opinion as he had stated yesterday, and which he now stated again, namely, that great evils must attend on this particular combination affecting the Irish controverted • election petitions. He still thought, an.l tho debate of this evening had confirmed him in the opinicn, that the eh tractor of this combination and subscription was that of Protestant against Roman Catholic, and of Englishmen against Irish men.—( Hear, hear.) He saw by the instances quoted to night, of peculiarity in the nan;c3 or signatures cf some of the subscribers, such as " Anti-Papists" and " Art' Dens Theologists," and titles of that description, intended to signify attachment to the Protestant Chu.e'r and Con stitution—this sufficiently showed that it was on re ligious grounds that the subscription hal' been raised, and Was contributed to. Another fact, that the sub scriptions were intended to act solely against the Irish peti tions', was sufficient to satisfy him of the character of the proceedings. Taking this view of the matter, he considered the combination an act calculated to break that harmony be tween•the two countries which was intend-2d to be established at the Union.—(Hear, hear ) But this was not all. He would put it to the House whether, c rnsiderlng th suspicions which had grown up and the objections that were raised on ' other grounds against the tribunals by which the election pe titions were judged—lie would put it to the House whether, bearing these facts its mind, it was not cf opinion that a sub scriptior of such a nature was calculat , ol to. excite additional doubt and suspicion as to the proceedings of those tribunals. —( Hear hear.) But when lie was asked what remedy was to be applied, he declared, as he declared last night, that he knew ' not what direct remedy theyleould apply. His lioneurahle and Learned Friend the Attorney-General, stated it as his aopirrio'n, that, as regarded the mere question of law, these sub7eriptions were illegal. The Noble Lord said if that opinion were correct—if the Government believed the sub ' scription: to be illegal, why did they not immediately institute a prosecution against the parties ? Now surely the Noble Lord, with his experience of office and public Ife, must know that amongst the transactions of the day it frequently hap pened that acts were ill ega ll y committed, - and that though her Majesty's Attorney-General, if asked ifthose acts were or were not illegal, us a good lawyer must declare them to be viola tions of the law, still he perhaps would not -Avis,: prosocution in any of those case. Every one knew that i, was not suffi cient to say that because acts were illegal they ought to be prosecuted, and lie bad no doubt his Hon. Friend the Attor ney-General . formed a sound judgment when be said he thought that these subscriptions ought riot to be made the sub ject of prosecution. • He was forced, thou, to this conclusion, that whatever the political or the moral character of this com bination, whatever the peculiar evils that it might inflict on the country, when they talked of proceeding against it, they could not proceed on any such ground as had been suggested. If they considered it illegal or an attack on their privileges, and instituted proceedings on that ground, they must at the same time allow of proceedings against every subscription that had been raised for controverted elections, and, perhaps, even aga i nst every subs cr i pt i on t h at had been ra i se d f or conteste d elections in this country.—( Hear, hear.) Fur that rea son he thought it was unadvisable to enter on any such course. But though not prepared to say that measures might not be taken to limit or restrain the powers of subscription, he feared they might be working mischief, in many instances, instead of good, if they refused to allow the interests of the poor man to ho maintained by the subscriptions of others against the power of those who might have great resources nt their command ; by establishing that principle, they might be giving an undue influence to the wealthy, and deeply injuring the interests of those who were in less fortunate circumstances. He therefore doubted much whether it was expedient to enter on any course whipli had Aar its object to put down subscriptions by any law At present in existence, or by any that Parliament might fAme. Such being the case, while he thought that there weae peculiar evils arising from this combination—while be th,ought it calculated to keep alive religions at:lntoslties, and thus to inflict a deep injury neon tiro community, he could not consent tq the appo:ntment of a Select Comnitteo. Hear, ' hear, hear.) The nest course opt' t to them ,was that which he proposed tg pur.uo it was the courte of allowing the election Fictitious) to go on in the regular way before the legal tribunals; but at the sane time he proposed to forward as much as was in his power any measure which he thought likely, on the (no hard, to give - greater facility and a character of iiripartialiy to their tribunals • gi l d on the other band to diminish the expense of the trials which would come before thero.7—(Cheers ) He must advert to ono more mat. r that wa; &hided tLy Noble Le rI. He agreed eith him that the uncer a nty of the_ fra &the in !reined was one of those circumstence. tenet d more t' an anything else to render the decisi ns of the E c.tioa Committees Mkt to doubt, and, consequently, s ail Lion and dissatisfaction. lie . considered this in a great measure the consequence of there being great doubt as to the law o Election Petitions. The decisions would be le s un.sertain and variable if the Commit tees had before them for he r guidance ruttier poreerder t He himself believ d t! at men,' uhsteter might lie their party views, would not b, disposed to swerve fie:it what they plainly saw was the r duty.—(O l post on cheering.) But while there was a greater nr"iudice agehist it, as iri consequence of the upposed influ once of pod tical nr p rty viers, the greater w. s the reason to imer, ve the tribe.: al as much as po sible, a d to give it as much legal essistatne they possibly could. This seemed to him te l . Le almost the only measure whit tey coo d 'a se on i t is subject. lie did no:. think tha i the present soste ~f thirms, they eaul.l. propose any measure which tuts eikely to postpone to a fu_ lure time the le titioas which would not be imeuted to p.r v views. He ha I thus she stat.d his o; 'pion on the ques tion before the hiMse. Ile would, however, before he sat down, take some nttice of one or two observations whielt had been made by Honnurahle Members. tied sal ich were somewhat personal to himself. He would pass by the ob servatioaa of the lioneurable Member for Maidstone, who had spoken for the first time in the House that night, oith merely referring one remark. The Ho towable Member said that he (Lord John Russell) hell in one hand the keys of St. Peter.—( A laugh.) In his opinion the Hon. Mem-. ber fel' a i to an errorsimiiar to that into which many yatutg spe -kers Lai before fallen, namely, that he had transposed his figure as well as his persons ; the Hon. Gentleman evi. dently intended to say that Mr. Hudson, when he rushed into the Vatican, had secured the keys of St. Peter, and placed them is the band of the Right Hon. Baronet. —(Great laugh ter.) The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for North Wilts said that he (Lord John Russell) lead attached much weight to t e authority, and had referred to a motion that he brought forward some years ago, and to a speech he then made, as a a precolant for the present prOeeeding. Ile begged to as sure the lion. Baronet that he attached no weight whatever to his authority.---( Hear, hear, end laugh.) He did not think that any weight or importance could or ought to be attached to that opinion--(lleac, hear)—and therefore the Hoe. Ba ronet was mistake i in supposing that he had alluded to that precedent as being entitled to any weight or authority.— ( Hear, hear.) Ile believed the Hon Baronet, who had made sense observa,ioes tv'et reference to himself personally, bad left the House, but 113 they were of very little consequence, he would nut dwell upon them. The lion. Baronet had spoken o f his ( Lord John liusselhi) inconsi tency every twelve hours ; he could not help observing that the question of consistency was rather a dangerous topic fur the Hon. Baronet to dwell upon. He would, however, take an opportunity of saying a few words on this Subject when the lion. Baronet was in the House.—( Hear; bear ) Sir It, PEEL objected on vareus grounds to the postpone. ment of the consideration of the petitions, uatil that House and the House of Lords had agreed to the Bill of the Hoe. Member for Liskeard, or to some. other Bill for that purpose. —( Heat:, hear.) He of on those grounds, in th e fi ss t pl-ce, that it was the parti cu l ar d uty of that Huse to deals. who were the leghinia.e representatives of the people, and nothing could be so unjust as to postpone the determination of this important ma ter, until they had agreed at to the tribunal which should be sulosthuted for the present one.__( Hear. ) Secondly, he objected to the proposition, because it would furnish a most dangerous areeedent, in a new Parliament, for a majerity to force a decision on a minority as to what shotild be the nature of the new ttihnnal by which the great questioa which he had just referred to should be decided.—( Hear.) The. Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had taunted him asith an unwillingness to recede from the present system by which the decision of a contested election pe.iti -n was left to a Committee of the House. He, in re,oly, would ask who hal dwelt en the impropriety of leaving the jurisdicion of this subject in the House I. f Comtnons—who had said that it was most unfit and " unbecoming to • assemble in great numbers when the tribunals were to be appointed—wbo had said that, being connected with party they would act as party men— and who withdrew a Bill he wished to introduce, - having for its object the transferring of the jurisdiction to an entirely IleN tribunal, and voted for a Bill of a very different nature ? (Cheers.) The only Bill which was now before the House proposed to leave the jurisdiction of the House of Commons as it at present was, the persons on the tribunal to be deter. mined by Ballot ; if, then, this Bill passed, there would be the same attendance at the Ballot es there was at present. —( Hear, hear.) There would be the same attention to the canvass ohich the lienoterable and Learned Gentleman so much condemned, and to any party object to which the present system was liable.—( Hear, hear.) He found also that the Bill which had been adopted by-the Honourable and Learned Gentleman contained proposals which were directly at variance with the recommendations of the Committee. (Hear.) The Noble Lord had also said that he so much dis. approted of the Bill that he had some important alterations to propose in various parts of it. He (Sir Robert Peel) ob. jected, however, that at the beginning of the new Parliament they should not have eime to give such an important subject due consideration, if it were to be immediately adopted. and whicte if ha at proceeded w ith, wou ld mom probably be liable to the strongest objections.—(Hear hear.) -Another great objection of his was, the referring the 67 election peti tions to a new and untried tribunal.—(Cheers.) - would say improve the election tribunal after this session, -divest it as much as possible of any suspicion of being influenced by party feeling. He begged that it might not be supposed that he objected to any change in the constitution of the tribunal which was I.kely to be an improvement ; it was as much the interest of that as of the opposite side to adopt an improvement which was calculated to it sure the impartiality of the tri bunal.—( Hear, hear.) Ile might be asked if there was no thing of party feeling in the present tribunal ; and ho would a-k in reply, if that were the case, what advantage could the minority possibly have over the majority ?—(llear.) He was, however, willing t o a d opt a new tribunal, after due consideration, which should not be liable to the objection of being au e.r post facto law. With respect to the motion aesore the Heise, the autherof it apparently shrunk from the charge of i , althought last night they were assured that it should be submitted to its attention; but nothing prevented their immediate decision on the subject but he illstimed and inconsiderate proposition of the Honeur. able Member for Southwark. That Honourable Member sated that on one occasion his return was sent to the deei_ son of a Committee on which lie had only one friend, and he ( Sir R. Peel) had thought that on that occasion the Hon. Member would not have met with a single supporter. Tho proposition of tars Honourable Member had no immediate connectiote with his own rropasal. In justice to his own proposal -the Honourable Gentleman ought to give a. distinct notice upon the subject: he ought, too, to press for a deci. don upo:t the main question, for otherwise he must think that his own proposal could only lead to a further waete co - time. This he ought to do, if he believed that the present question was brought forward in the mere sprit of perty warfare, and if he ready believed, us he (Sir R.:Peel) had no doubt he did believe, that it was an ungenerous motion directed against the Hon. Baronet the Member for North Wilts.—( Cheers.) Let there not be any pretext utforded far withdrawing from a decision upoti the question; for after the amendment had been negatived, ani the main proposition put, as far as he was concerned; there should bent) previous question—there should be no appeal to the Order of the Day.--Cheers.) The simple and the intelligible ground of the motion was, that an unwise and an unjust act had been done, and" that he proposed to meet with a positive and direct negative.—(Loud cheers.) As the Hon. Member for Mon much had proposed five or sit cumbrous resolutions, entering into details, and involving what might be partly truth, it might on that account have been difficult to have met - there with a distinct negative, a n d th e prev i ous ques tionthen could have been resorted to ; bat when the question was, whe ther or not a Committee should, upon a simple statement of facts, be appointed—and let it be remembered that if not appointed that night, it cou'd n u t b e ap po i nte d f or many weeks following—when such was the proposition, there was no pre tence for taking any other course than that of saying " aye," or " no," to the; appointinent of the Committee.—( Hear. ) lie intended to say " no,"--(Cheers)—and this, therefore, was the course which he meant to pursue. If the Honourable Gentleman the Member for Southwark persisted in moving his Amendment, the question put from the chair would be, thet "the words proposed to be left out stand east of the question ;" then, in that case, he must have the'infinite as tiifaction of voting with the Honourable Member the mover of the proposition, and of course with the Noble Lord.— ( Laughter.) The Honourable Gentleman must be anxious to Coate to the decision upo a his osn peoposition. Ho must think that any impediment that should be thrown in his way to attain that desirable end, must be exceedingly disagreeable, i not unfair; a..d of course tie Honour. able Gentleman must move that his words stand past of the question. If, then, that were carried in the affirm. ative, and he thought he could promise the lion. Gentle. men that they on that side of the House would aid him in carrying it so far—(Laughter)—then they would come to decide upon the main question, whether the Committee ought to be appointed.—( Hear.) As he bad said before, he should "meet that proposition with a direct and unqualitLd negative. Either the proceeding which had been so much adverted to that night was an illegal and unconstitutional proceeding, or it was one permitted by lass. If the Noble Lord thought that it was of doubtful legality, and yet dangerous, ho had the remedy within his hands ; it was not even necessary for him to have recourse to the Attorney : General on the subject ; but the Noble Lord could bring in a declaratory Bill.—(Ceeers.) If it were unconstitutional and a breach of the 1 r vileges of that House, why did not Honourable Gentlemen meet it with a direct resolution ?—( Cheers.) But if Hon. Gen tlemen opposite felt this transaction to be one which they consider oil to be imprudent arid unwise, and y e t which thee felt to be to7erated by law, then he had to protest , against the course of r oAeding which they seemed deter. mined upon adopting. Honour a bl e G ent l emen sa id th a t the argunitm whi h had been used in this debate was a tat pope argarneni—of course it was.—( Cheers.) His Hon. and Learned Fiend, in his admirable speech, had show* that not only w as It a transaction tolerated by all parties at alt times, but that those opposite had sanctioned and practiced it t h e mist. O n t h e o pposite side they said tie euchre, but he replied to th •m, tut quoq re, to p rior l tut q use —(Loud cheers.)T y ha I taeght, and t i ey had Friendw br c o o u tn s p b l t ain f :d i w .—( ard L t T e d p la c u rt h he ter st . e ) r case. Now Noble p o r h a i c l ti u se u d tehi a s nd —if be bad real the nein s of the co tributors, a n d-th e [ enc l.. V II: had brought to:ward that case at the time fed tlzeyllo dealgnations they assumed—what a miserable waste of time it would have been thought ?—(Cneers.) And this would be the teault if the House of Commons condemned an act without tho power of enforcing the condemnation—that no t atoll would the parties escape punishmint, but tlee thtif