The Sun. — London, England, 1812-02-08 00:00:00

his friends about him; and sure I am that in any arrangement proper for such an occasion, your con co! • r nee may be confidently expeaed." -. The Noble Secretary of State then proceeded to explain the outline and leading provisions of the Bill (which have been repeatedly before our Readers), and the different expeuces attending the arrangement, which were founded on the best data that could be .ob tained ; as to the former expenditure, due provision was ' , Jade by the Bill for the• present dignity and comfort of the affliCted Sovereign, by securing to hint a certain proportion of the Royal Household (of which he stated the particidars), and for vesting the remainder of the Civil List in his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, for the due Administration of the Guternment of the country. The whole of the arrangements were formed at the same time with et ery pra&icable attention to economy,- though a principle which, perhaps, on an occasion like the present, should have less weight than on any other.` The whole, he repeated, proceeded on the principle of a possible recovery of the Sovereign, arid necessarily, a possible resumption of the Royal Authority. The arrangement with respect to the Civil List,' to continue while the Government was vested in the Piince, as Regent ; on the demise of the Crown, of course, the whole would form a new question, and the rights which would devolve to the Prince - Regent, as Sovereign of the country, would, of course be duly considered and attended to. His Lordship adterted to what had taken place from time to time with respell to the excesses of the Civil List expenditure. Much of what bad occurred he did not . approve of—he thought the subjea had never yet been fully and fairly met. The time should be considered when the Civil List was originally ar ranged ; and with 'reference to the great, the im mense difference in the expenses of every thing which had occurred in the long lapse of time. He would put the question to any Gentleman in the country, whether the excesses which had occa sionally taken place, were in the least surprising ? After a variety of farther appropriate remarks on this part of tile' subject, and on some collateral considerations connected with the whole, the No ble Ertl concluded by moving the third reading of the Bill. Lord GRENVILLE said. he' would not enter into any detailed observations on the subject. With much of what had fallen from the Noble Secre tary of State, he concurred ; on other points he decidedly differed from him ; and this difference of opinion principally arose from the, essential dif ference between we case as it now presented itself to the Hcuse, and as it stood in 1789, and in the beginning i)f the last year. He concurred -in the sentiment, that, it should be considered the provision was be made for a sick King, who, in that af ii;,ing a ituatiou, should be environed upon consti tutional as well as personal grounds, with 'a due degree of splendour 'and dignity. In the principal of what had fallen from the Noble Secretary respect ing the Civil List, he agreed, being decidedly',6l opi nion, that public difficulties could never be removed, if they were not fairly koked at, or kept out of sight. -In all that regarded the personal comfort and dignitt of the Sovereign, it was impossible, be th - ought, there could be a dissentient voice. It was doe to him personally.as Sovereign, and constitu tiondlly in contemplation of the kingly charaeter ! Revrti: g to the topic of. the Civil List, his Lord ship alluded to the praCtice of our ancestors, who were :lot for blending the expenses of the Civil Ad ministration of the country, with the expenses of the King's Household. Perhaps they were better separate. 'He was aware that now such a thing was impossible, the Civil List being granted to-his Ma jesty for life. He took a glance at what had been the practice with respea to the Civil List in former Administrations : and was of opinion that the sub jeEt should be considered, and every information -re lating thereto should as soon as possible be laid be fore Parliament, with a view of economizing as far is was praaticable, and to endeavour to avert future excesses in that braneh of the expenditure. Ihe Noble Lord then summed up his objections to the Bill, which were chiefly directed against the clauses that transferred the whole of the Civil List to the Regent, and took it from the King, while every thing continued to be transaCted in the name and on behalf of the King. It also involved a contra ditlion—that sum; should be drawn from the Treasury, 'while the Commissioners of the Trea sury were invested" with no power to investigate Or andit the accounts for which they s'aould be re sponsible. Lords HARROWBY and LIVERPOOL, in explana tion, observed, that there might be some Mewl yenienCe and contradiction apparently in the of- fices ; but had it been endeavoured more distil - 161y • to separate,, a 'much' more painful duty would be imposed on the Prince Regent, than his Royal High- Dels was now subjeLied to, which certainly was an inconvenience which he conceived it to be the ge. - rural wish to obviate. Lord GRENVILLE said a few words in explana tion, alter which the other Orders of the Day v.ere disposed of, and the House adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. FRIDAY, FEB. 7. The Chancery Clerks Regulation Bill was read a firs! time, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday. The Deputy Usher of the Black Rod, summoned the Speaker to the House of Lords, to hear the Royal Assent given to certain Bills. On his return he informed the House, that the Royal Assent had bean given by Commission to the Exchequer Bills Bills, and the Corn Distillation - Prohibiiion Bill. On ►lse motion of Mr. CuortEri, the Naval Stores Embezzlement Bill went through a Committee, the report of which was ordered to be received on Mon (LI tvext. Mr. MA NNlN.c . obtained leave to bring in a Bill (or allowing farther time for theNcompletion of the work At the London Docks. The Lords A& Amendment Bill went through a Committee, the report of which was brought up, and ordered to be taken into farther consideration on Friday next. Mr. _WALLAGE brought in a Bill to amend the •- iOtilof the King, for regulating the mode of pay ment of the 1,500,0001. advanced afilOan to the East India Company: Read a first, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday. the motion of Mr. W. POLE, certain Re lartS of the Commissioners of Inquiry in Ireland, pre sented _to the House on Friday last, were ordered • to be printed. fr On the motion of Mr. CALCRAFT, RettlrilS of the Regulars and Militia, as also of the Foreign and Co lonial Corps, specifying the number of each ; toge ther with Accounts of the number of Recrui.s raised in the ordinary way, made up to December, 18t I, were ordered to be 'before - the House. He also moved for Returns of the Casualties in the Army, up to the same time.—Ordered. Mr. BANKES moved the second reading of-the OFFICES IN REVERSION BILL, Mr. W. DUNDAS understood, the Hon. Gentle man who brought this subjea for ward, had on a former evening stated himself = not w be aware that any opposition might be expeded. It there had beep any understanding to that etre& he was no party to it. He should expea more substantial reasons than any he had yet heard from the Hon. Gentleman befote he 'could give his vote for making that permanent which had hitherto only been adopt-- ed as a temporary measure. He fluderstood the measure which had - been adopted, to have origineted in a wish of the Finance Committee ; that those sinecure places Might not be granted in reversion which subsequently they might think it expedient to abolish, and therefore a suspension of the power, of the Crown in this respea had been requested ; now he would ask, could it be too-much to desire that this branch of the prerogative of -the Crown might not be des - rayed, at least till the embryo plans of the Honourable •Gentleinan, who thought pto per to recommend silt a measure were known. — It might so happen that when these plans were brought forward, the House might be of opinion they were such as ought not to be adopted, and tten they .would stand in the predicament n 1 having lopped off apart of the prerogative of the Crown, without supplying in any other way the means of rewarding long and meritorious services. The pre rogative of the Crown he conceived to be a part of the rights of the Sovereign, and he thought the House ought not to touch this branch of it till the plan of what was to be substituted for it was known. It was useless, moreover, to ,pass it there, as it would -be thrown out in - the Lords. When it left the House they knight bid the Bill fare well. The Report of a former CommitteeOn the sub jea was here read by the Clerk. Mr. BANKES denied thatehe measure had originat ed in any suggestion of the Committee ot Finance. The Bill had not been brought in in consequence of any pending inquiry, and the House had unani mously voted that it was not, fit the power of grant ing places in reversion should remain • longer to the Crown. The-Honourable Gentleman had been the first to oppose it, but in the first instance, the Bill passed that. House without any opposition what ever. He (Mr. Bankes) then took a general sur vey of the history of the proceedings which had taken place in the last Parhareent . on the sub jed, and then stated what had been its fate in, the present, from which it appeared, that after it had been thrown out more than once by' the Lords, in order to prevent any difference between the two Houses, the Commons gave way, and a temporary measure was substituted for t hat which had previously been proposed, int] thus, for the first time (in the years 1808 or 180 e), it was made to depend in some sort upon the • Committee of Finance. This , . had been a favourite measure with the Com mons, and whrn it was found they could not make the suspension of such grants perpetual, a tempo rary measure had been resorted to, without at all abandoning the idea of making it permanent at a tuture period. The circumstance of the Bill having been thrown out two or three times by the Lords, was no proof.that their : opposition to the measure would be still continued. They might be convinced that the measure was not so objectionable as it was formerly thought, and if the present Bill were thrown out in the Lords; it would still be time enough to bring in a teMporary Suspension At in the course of the present Session. The granting of places in reversion was injurious to the public, as it had the effe& of throwing theft into improper hands, and thus converted efficient offices, which ought to be held for the public benefit, into sine cures. This, in.the course of time, was the natural consequence, as those to whom they were granted, though fit for them at the time the grant was made, became incapable of discharging the duties belonging to them. by the time they fell ‘acaet. The mea sure he proposed, he' contended, would not have the effed of injuring the Royal prerogative, but, on the contrary, would eventually strengthen - it, and put it in a better state of activity. By taking it for granted that the measure must be thrown out in the other House, they would seem to admit that they bad discovered there was something goods. in . the system itself, and thus strengthened the principle which opposed the Bill. It was never, he observed, introduced as a measure of economy, any more than the abolition of sinecures. The more the measure was examined, the more would it bear out the Reso lutions of the Committee of March, 1807. The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER aumateu the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) to be cor=ed in what he had stated with respect to the manner in which the former Bills had been thrown out; but at the same time he was sure that lie would have the eu,tice to recoiled that the feelingS on both sides, of this question had been very highly coloured. To him it had always appeared with the Hon. Gentle man, that whatever might be the policy, conveni ence, or advantage, of adopting the measure, every statement made in its favour, on the ground of eco nomy, in or out of that House, was perfedly ground less. It would not save one farthing of the public . money, or relieve the burdens of the people in the smallest degree. On this ground, now, he and his Honourable Friend perfectly understood one another; The other question, as to whether or not it would diminish the influence of the Crown, had also been very much aggravated, and the advantages and dis advantages on each side greatly magnified. 'His opinion was, that in one case or in the other, in a very little time, or at least in the course ot one ge neration, it would make no difference to the Crown. He therefore thought the question of little import ance with a reference to the views entertained on both sides of the question ; he thought they ought not to prohibit the granting of,offices in reversion, before it was determined whether or not sinecure offices (the only offices to be disposed of) were to be abolished; as it was not 'worth while to pais a law to prevent such offices being granted in reversion one day, and make one to abolish the offices themselves the next. If the object involved a great constituti onal question, he argued with his Hon. Ft iend, that it would be wrong for the House to hesitate on the course they should pursue, and suffer themselves to be deterred from persevering iu =that;Fwhich they. conceived to be of importance by the circumstance of their Bills having formerly been Thrown out in the other House. Where, however.the. object in view was one of little consequence, a desire to avoid any thing like a disagreement with the other House Might be some reason for - not pressing the_lmeasure, ,proposed. Stripped of the invortance which had been given to it by the candid avowal of his Hon. Friend, that it would not diminish. the influence,of she Crown, and that it was not brought forward as a measure of economy ; stripped of those consider ations, lie protested that to him it appeared too in significant to be worth the risk of a disagreement with any one. It might be proper. .to pause on their proceedings, and to determine, if the measure were taken up at all, whether it would not be better taken up subiequenr to their decision on the question respeding sineedre'• places, or carried on con jointly with the proceedings on that subje&. On these grounds lie should oppose the second reading of the Bill. . Mr. BAN Kes, in explanation-, observed, that there were several offices,..which it was proposed to abo lish. It it was continued to grant these in reversion, this would be impraisticable. So far the measure had a reference. to :economy._ _ _ The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished no interruption to be given to the 'proceedings of the Comtnittee on Sinecure Places, and had never been against a temporary measure to make all perfedly sale in that respeEt. 1..:4rd A. HAMILTON spokejaluour_ of the second reading.. - - - - • - Sir ANIUEL ROMILLY was astonished to find the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he thought the subject of so little importance, conclude by oppos... ing that which had, been a favourite measure with the House and with the-country. It was a mea sure which would be beneficial to the King and to the country. The public would be benefited by it, as it would prevent . public offiCes being held by im proper persons, as many gained them by their being granted in _reversion, who were not qualified to fill 'them well, however equal to them they might have been at the time the grant was made. Mr. WHITBREAD observd; the Measure "hacronly been opposed by two persons, who %%ere themselves reversionists. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said it was unimportant if it was so; •as it- was known to be what was desired by the county, where was the policy of opposing it ? •As to what had been said of its not_being a measure of econo my, he contended that the Right Hon. Gentleman was a practical proof that the contrary was the fact. to the event of the death of Lord Arden, the.office held by that Noble Lord might be - regulated, had not the reversion of it been granted to the Right Hon.. Gentle Man. The Office of Paymaster of •Wi dows' Pensions, 'which bad .recently been given away (and which he wished had not been sogiven away) would have been regulated ,30 years ago, had it,ppt been given 'away .itt reversion, and from this it might be seen t e raea,s uP - NWiltllll . :ite — g rt a measure of . economy. The pok‘er of granting places in reversion was, he maintained, an impro-, per forestalling of the prerogative of the Crown what might pass in the Lords, the. House of Commons had nothing to do. He-hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would not succeed in his opposi tion, and that the fill! would pass that House,What ever might be its fate in the other. Mr. D. GIDDY observed, that the subject out of doors was tegarded by the_ public with a jealous eye. In his opinion, when it was considered as the means of Irgitimate influence lo the Crown, nothing could be more inefficacious, so that every cause con spired to render the passing of the Bill necessary, and he trust it would pass. Mr. BASTARD conceived Parliament were the best judges of what ,was necesssary for the public interest. Sir JOHN SEBRIGHT considered that the House would act iocon,istently if they rejected the Bill. Mr. W. ELLIOTT thought the power which was given to the Crown, of granting Offices in Rever sion, was diSadvantageous to the Crown itself, be cause it afforded an opportunity to mortgage that right to the successor. He did not mean to con tend that it wouta be desirous to abolish the power of conferring rewards for meritorious services in re version, but those rewards would be* best Vested in P,rliament. He agreed, however, with the Right. Hon. Gentleman, that the subjea was not of much moment under the present state of things, and, therefore, should. vote for its, rejetiiCn.' Mr. PONSONBY could not agree with the'Right Hon. Gentleman, for he thought it a matter of considerable importance, both in an economical point of, view, but infinitely of more importance, when viewed in aeonstitutional light. It • would give the power to any . Minister to call to his aid those resources, which, in days to come, ought to be in the Crown, and consequently must be a mea sure. highly dangerous, and . injurious to the coun try. The reasoning of the Right floo. Gentleman was not a little extraordinary. Forrne'rly he voted for the adoption.of the Bill, because it was of little importance ; he now voted against it for the same reason ; therefore, it served his, purpose both ways. However, in his (Mr. P.'s) opinion, ,it was not a matter of ! little importance to the House to have it go out to the country, that having once cherished a measure which was of Public - benefit, they..now re jeded it asteing of• little moment. The Right Hor?.`Gentlemati shOuld suggest a .reason for its re jedion to ,satisfy the country, which would carry with it greater weight than the One he now asSigned. -The - consiatency of the House..was in question after receiving the measure for four successive years, and the, public might imagine that in rejeaing it now, they, were under the influence of the Minister. Such an opinion would tend to Icss'en and degrade • the character of Parliament. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in ex planation, stated, that be had given his suppOrt to it formerly in obedience to the pleasure of the House; he had site . colletted that the subject was not thought of so much moment elsewhere, and for the same reason he did not think it was necessary: to give it his support now. In the view which he took of it then, it was not a measure of much prac tical economy, and , much less so now, whe,n it was not in contemplation to aboli li the grant of 'offices in rviersion, The House then divided on the question, " That the Bill be now read the second time"— . Ayes • • 5 2 Noes . . . 56 Majority against the motion I —4 The House again divided (during the exclusion of stranger), as we understood upon a motion for reading the Bill a second time on " this day six montbs"-- A yes • 55 Noes • • 52 Majority in favour of the motion —3 There was another diyision, during the exclusion, for adjourning it Ayes - . • 44 Noes • 59 Majority againstjt — l 4 THE 39111 OF ELIZABETH. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY rose to move for the re. peal of the Aa of the 39th of Elizabeth, which constitutes a capital offence, punishable with death, in soldiers and sailors found begging in the streets. The Honourable and Leerned Gentleman conceived there could be tio objeClion to remove from the Statuteßook an AO of this n store, which went to a capital punishment on persons of this: des cription, who were wandering; or begging about the streets, without a pass from their COmmanding Of ficers. : Tiro la vv had not, to be sure, be, , naiited up on since the ifith 'of Charles, which last Statute con tinued it, nor would the House deem it expedient to continue A6ls which, in .the present tomes, never could be thed upon. 11 , 11 - Justice Blackstone, in his woik, referring to this Statute, had said, it was . -• •" a disgrace to the Legislature." Being on the suh jea of the Penal Laws, he would take this Oppiir tunity of stating, that it was not his intention at this . moment to bring forward any of the Bills which he had formerly done. In so retraining, he. had not in the least altered his opinion as to the necessity of amending the Criminal Code, nor was his perse verance or patience exhausted. He wished not to ; weary the House by Bills • which, from what had • transpired, there - was no - chance or probability ,of .passiags,the-wher trotcd, however,_ that the prejudices which now operated would sub- • side, and in a little time be so removed, as to affoid, hilt] the opportunity of persevering with effed.--- Perhaps in the next Session' he should bring the subject again under the consideration of the House. He then moved for leave to bring in a. Bill to repeal 'the Ael of the 39th of Elirrbeth, &c. Mt. FRA'NKLINT, seconded the motion, and in so doing would say a word Or two on . the subject. If his • Hon. and Learned Friend had diligeutly in q'uired into and • examined the statutes, he would 'leave found that this A& was not in force, for the second Act of Charles - to which he lia , 4 referred could,.upon examination, shew that it had expired. Since Justice Blackstone wrote, it. had been vii tually repealedby the 32d of thc King, whieh latter Act expressly declares such persons iu be adjudged as rogues and vagabonds. When the_ 39th - of Elite zabexh was passed, it was the custom to des:gtiate Persons and not crimes, for the Legislauire v.vs then obliged to pass Acts of the kind from dire necessity• It Was not intended' that it should operate in the or-, ,- dinaiy way, but. was framed with humane 'for'it gave thoStr persons who had assembled in large numbers, 'and committed divers - atrocities, time to , disperse ; the penalties of the Act not atto6.ing un til 4o days had expited. It was, he might say, a sort of Legislative anTaTalidii7srWar agairst men in open rebellion 'to all laws. Though these daring out- rages formed the' grOund woik of the Act,which out , rages- were not likely to . occur again in the pre' sent order of society, 'might it not be expedient t. 0 ,, adopt measures pointing to persons and not crimes ? If we looked about at the present moment, not one hundred miles distant; if, accidentally, persons Were thrown out of employ, and through miserable igno.• "ranee,. comrnitted'erimes upon the property of their fOrmer employers, setting all laws at defiance, would. it, not be expedient, to repress those evils ? MAO' trates should recollect, that their duty was not sair• weather duty. He trusted, however, that these guided people were, in a great measure, returning . to a sense of their duty to society. The Act in ques tion *as to be considered as a proclamation rather than a law. • Mr. LOCKHART thought the Honourable Gentle men had misconceived his Hon. and Learned F. tend whose argument went to the disgrace of having; such a Statute on the Books in the present state a things. • Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY observed that the Hott• Gentleman had a veneration for the Statute of beth, This was not the only Statute of that (4neeti which must be considered a disgrace, for there uts s one he could refer the Hon. Gentleman to whica made it a felonious ad in'any person lot ud in 1.1 01 company of Egyptians. There was another, made it felony to commune with the Devil. Th 6 inflammatory language of thoie Ads was borrow c d from her predecessors, Mary, and Henry VIII'. With respell to the Statutes, he had looked On, them as narrowly as his abilities would allow, an" he would assert that the 16th of Charles cufflititio cl this A6.t, fOr it - expressly said, " it shall be contl* nued tilt Parliament makes some other law on th e subject." The Hon. , and Learned Gentleman thought-men's lives should. not le subject to such • laws.- Leave was then given to bring in.the Bill. PENTETENTIARY HOUSES. Mr. Secret,ry RYDEit moved, " That it be 20 instrndion to the Committee on Penitentiary House s to inquire into the state of punishment on board th e Hulks, to 'report their, opinions on-the same, to settler with what improvements they may deem b 6: cess'ary." The Right Hon. Gentleman infortne" Sir S. Romilly that the Committee had begun, and were proceeding with their inquiries : but if 1.1 ' 4 Hou. Friend wished to moved for another Cool' mittee, he was at liberty so to do. 'With respect t ° the propriety of ereEting Penitentiary Houses, thi lt had been decidedupon in the vicinity of the metro polis, but as .to.the expediency of carrying them on throughout the kingdom would depend- on the stat e .olthe hulks. The whole must undergo a comple te . revision. The Right Honourable Secretaly obserY' led i that- he had stated on a former night, that m'°Y itheatrocities which had occurred, were to be itl • putted., to. the returned transports. He had mad e that statement upon the authority of two magistrate s. Since then he understood that - there was great di versity.of opinion among the magistrates in genera l upon the subjeet,•and thetfore he.sould not state that to be the fatt.