The Sun. — London, England, 1812-06-12 00:00:00

• -" Period of the Administration, instead of leas *to _the.' sSueh . : -a proceeding, so far cie r ki forwarding; would have.. the iminediate ten of tbrowingsimpeditnents in the way-. When • 'fliraositi es were talked of, he. wa§.not aware that a ' s 'Y existed-i'vhich•would,preve-nt the country from , e 'PY.iog. the aclvantage.,of those talents which . it na-salie wish . of alLto.h.,a; v.e combined, in case they • e lt oilhl have agreed- - upon, principles consistent. with t qr -mutual eharacters. Honourable Gentle; , had sporr the power Of the Crown ta . i. a ll'unor:individtials, of. public talents being ; but however the abstract theory t " appear, .he • did -not see how, in this freecO Wr» it 1s capable of a.practical application. , t re re n al before the .House Was, whether •N'"Y- would corne , :to a-vote, declaring the incom ':-.-'Zl.Pf4ey, of the - . ..pre§ent_iAdministration? He was . . proceeding ..to a consideration cif this ,' 44 4.thcv-wouldhave - a comparative view of men, . 4 4 'deterinine not only. upon ,the.positive merits - •, (f di.Gse now power, but upon the probability c'htaining the assistance of the -Gentlemen op fr'site• Both the Noble Lords bad designatedthe 1 ,. ministration-in 4(1 • nistration-in terms, - which he did not ' think' . .;' l ll'anted by fact. Even supposing that the pre 'itmen were those who were driven out in the tar 1804 ; he meant no dispargement to any Gen t•-man in the House, and he was sure it - would 'ot b e regarded as such, when he said,- - that there . . no-individual to whom the country looked at. . ti .i )r e*nt with the same -degree of confidence as it . 1 . 1 4 1 to - either of the two great men then living. e would , challenge the Noble Lord, when he t c al ked - of an Administration removed for incapa -41!; to sh e w, whether at any period greater ex itions had been made, or whether greater or more il ' iversal support had ever been 'given to any. fhe Hon. Gentleman opposite - had alluded to the. CthOlie QueStion, and that. being :said to. be no 71 ter.a Cabinet - question, objection had been taken the principle. of Cabinet questions altogether; i t if.'heYreeollected rightly, he had often heard it orte as a matter of to Lord Gren -I''lT, that he had carried the question of the ago--t' t ion of the- slave..trade by making. it a Cabinet-1 . ile•; and the fact was that there must be at .all' alegitimate ,Iriftuerme exercised by Govern-. 1,....". 5 t in such caies. Bin it had - bien aidth at if the „'"e'iN: Ir. Perceval - - had not - made it a Government ‘PitiOn, - it would . have been carried. Was it not , t ' 4l ' th ei i fo.• Government .tO say -they would try it ~P°n that issue, and-not make it a GovernMent ' o ' t • ti etion any longer ?' They must limit the numbers =i f the Administration much more thah they were,- , t ‘ hey O did not allow' them to differ upon any: sub- . A i,`'`•• n the' subject to which he now alluded , Were at liberty to .act 'as. they pleased:. He S 4 w lik) inconsistency in an arrangement of this kind,. ally Impropriety ' in the determination of cer individuals to act together for the benefit of • "e•Sta.te though- there might be found to exist *a _ . 16 ggt theM some shades -of difference upon partieular points'.. "He had thought it niecesto--state so - much, to bring back the question . t Q its trnexiate. - He, for one, heartily joined in that.all public men could. he brought 4 " the public service, -consistently with their ho 4'''' but fie Would . riot . all6W that there was any i )t e of incapacity against the present Ministers: :, a ,• s i it :a ..vote of incapacity to call for assistance - ? 1 7.' 4116 4et . of men call upon another set to join u' .voting their own incapacity by: the that He hOped, upon all those ground s, . • noble they - w o u ld meet th e l as t proposition of the : Lord, and declare whether .the present . A. • / , c tin inistration possessed the confidence of the . - • b r Lord YARAI UTH said, that the negoeiation was ° kenoff in consequence of a . disagreeMent re tPecting the Officers: of the HouSehold. It was S tating instruction, and they took every mean. of atitig• it in every, quarter, that the removal of the p r esent ll Household would app - ear as if the Govern efitiwas forced on the Prince Regent. He spoke lot here of one or two Officers, bat of 'a larg ch ange er n" Proportio n th a n h a d ever been removed upo ~ of Adniinistration. They, on being .ap , , t oed to, had declared .that they only wished-to aow ten minutes before certain Gentlemen re ' Zeived the seals, upon which warning they should e prepared to resign. Before God and his coun- ZY, be would declare 'that he'could see no other 7 1 tive for insisting upon-this as-a preliminary, but it desire to offer humiliation. PONS'ONBY said, that after what had taken - see, the House would naturally expect that he Auld t . offer himself to their attention, and if he c)( "k up a greater portion of their time than he sl usually in the habit of occupying, he hoped Q'i s e Y would hear him patiently. - As to what the Lcwd who spoke last had , said, he heard it .° L' the first time to-night. Who the Right Ho- . Z l ukableGentkrtian alluded toby the Noble Lord, h . t aking so large a share in the Negotiation, was , e did not know, but he could say that no corn th- arlication was- made to or to Lords Grey find Grenville,of the description stated. He be tl'ved also, that there never was a conjecture °re injurious 'or, unfoUnded than that of the 1 1( )hle Lord,' when he ascribed the preliminary ; .. e t Nired t o an intention of humiliation to one t °se dignity- it must be the wish and in rest of all to support. He did not know the ght Hon. Gentleman alluded to, but be was cUr that if such a fact had come to the know edge of those who did him the honour to act with they would not have forborne to communi cate it. All the individuals concerned in the ne plciation 'were at present in the House, and if he 6 not spe a k correct/he begged to be contradict ,t,l by the. On the 21st of last,month, the House voted an Address to his Royal Highnes‘, pray , , - that he would take measures to appoint a 'rg and efficient Administration. The Ho , ourabl e Gentleman opposite. (Mr. Stewart Wort p,) had made that motion the House, and rWould ask him, on his honour, as a Gen- L e man, whether he had had, any communica °ll 'with him, (Mr. Ponsonby,) or- with those 1,. 1 4: 0 acted with him, previously to that period.? e Address did not proceed from his side of - the 1 t °l lse, nor was it passionately or laboriously pa *()ai d I by He recollected there were but i. °o ze Members spoke from it, he had said nothing 4; 4 - ts uL . e l l . He was aware of the insinuations to t "'eh it would expose him ; neither was it cor , 3 ! . Ct to state that two-thirds of the majority con . 74te d of Members of that side.' did not re, collect that on . any question of importance-so man y of them were absent,- for the notice -was onlY given the day before, and there was not 'suf. - - ficienttime to make the .communication to those wile Were absent. But the ,Right Honourable_ Gentleman had said,. that before the House of -Commons - could come to a right understanding ' on the question, they should be made acquainted ' with the, negociations that had tal , ..en place. , He ,begged leave, to state, for himself and for his No ble Friends,- that they had no secrets ; that the.: - more the facts were known, the more they, should he-satisfied—and the more; he was snre,would the :country be induced to approve their conduct. A. .wish -was expressed, by the Honourable Gentle man opposite, „that a sort of - union or coalition should be effected amongst public Meri t in. order that they might constitute a. more powerful and, efficient -Administratioa. The House had con,- curred in the. same wish, .and so did his Noble Friend, and so did he himself. It never was their intention to decline coming into Adminlstration with any man who, 'upon the great political ques tions of the country, , and the. general maxims of Government, could be brought to agree with them. So ,far from wishing to exclude any, they : were -de sirous to unite all. At the very outset of the ne gociation,while itwas in the hands of MarvisWel lesley, they had disclaimed all personality. The'. public, it was said, had an interest and a right in the characterS of public men, and - it Must be al lowed that public- men had'an interest and a right _in the defence of their own. characters ; he there -Y, lore hoped he should be excused if-he appeared a little tedious in dilating upon what, could not fail . him, the written documents , , The first paper to which he referred, was the . communication of Lord Wellesley to Lords. Grey and,Gre.n.ville, in which . he stated that : he had received the command of his , Royal Highness to plan an Administration ade- quote-to the present crisis ,of affairs ; that he had advised his. 'Royal Highness for--'this purpose, to;;. ascertain the views of the parties ; that he only. . acted under his Royal Highness's commands, and did not claim to 'be placed himself in any, situation of ;the GovernMent. :With these views - he demanded of their Lordships . whether they , Would have any objection,- first,.that the Claims:- • of the Roman CatholicS should be taken into inn- , mediate consideration - with a view to conciliatory. meastfres ; and :secondly, that the_ war in the,Pen insula should-be continued with adequate vigour? . 0n :the 24th:of.May,.without cavilling with Lord _ Wellesley for his want • of authority,- their Lord :ships returned an answer, declaring, that, at a moment like -the, present,_- they thought it the -duty of public amen to : give effect-to the late re solution - of .the House . of- Commons, that under ..the-.present imminent and unparalleled danger of the -country, Lord Wellesley -had selected two„, among the many important subjects. that- would - naturally comeunder theconsideration of Ministers, . and-upon which their answers : should be, explicit. On the first of these-, their opinions were too well known,. and too- recently- expressed, to require , - a repetition. They could :assure-.him however, that they would warmly support any- proposal of any Minister in favour of, that portion of his Ma .. .aesty's subjects.: - As to- the second,- no - persons : could appreciate more justly the: advantages of a' successful termination of the :war in Spain. -But it was a qUestion not-of ; principle , but of policy, - and to be determined by circumstances which were - sometimes limited 'to the knowledge of 'Govern,- mrtent alone. No public -man, therefore, would undertake . formore than a-dispassionate consider ation of the subject, under all the circumstances. •_They did not, however, mean to conceal from him their opinion, that in the present state, of the country, no increase should takeplace in anylaraach of expenditure. Mr. Canning : having communi cated the .Same proposition to Lord Liverpool, a minute was sent to Lords Grey and Grenville, Which struck Lord -Grey to be differett from that which was communicated to their Lordships; . be therefore wrote to Lord Wellesley, statingthe • fact ; but the difference was, soon :cleared up.— The next paper of consequence was aminute of the consultation of 7,Lords Grey _and Grenville on the Ist of-June, in which he stated that, he-, had full authority to form an Administration, and was especially. authorised to communicate it ;to their Lordships. Here followed the - arrangement of , Cabinet Ministers, which has already :appeared before the public.- The reply of Lords Grey ,and Grenville stated that they would accept of. -any situation, which they could discharge usefully and: honourably, but the principle of the propositiOn . - submitted to them was jealousy ; the objeet of it 'evidently an attempt to balance powers supposed to be in hostility. They -therefore declined any. participation. In forming Administrations, the Crown generally. applied to those who had the confidence of the majority of the House. The , first And vital;principle of the Cabinet was, that . the Members should possess the mutual confidence , of each tither, and that there should, be- an ab sence of all jealousy, ' The answer having . been delivered, nothing further passed under the au thority of the Regent, but Lord Moira on the 3d, June addressed a letter to them, . representing . that, in the answer to Lord WelleSley, they threw an imputation on him,- and therefore he hoped they would reconsider it. It was a measure con ducted in the spirit 'of fairness, and his Royal Highness had not appointed one of the individuals eornpoiing the proposed arrangement. This let ter - was written in the spirit of candour for which the Noble Lord was remarkable, but wholly tin authorised from any other person. -Lord Grey, in answer, expreaSed the greatest confidence in his Lordship's honour, and - disclaimed the idea of attaching any imputation to his conduct. On the 4th of Jtine, Lord Grey received another letter ' from Lord Wellesley, saying that neither. Lord Moira nor he hat' any authority to negociate, which he lemented, deeply. Lord-Grey wrote an other letter to Lord Moira, stating that h e and Lord . Grenville were ready for any further comniunica tion\vhich his Royal Highness might wish to con vey. -After this, and under the authority- of his , Royal Highness, a conversation -took place be tween Lords Moira, Grey, and. Grenville, Lord Erskine being present, at St. James's Place, June the 6th. Lord' Moira then stated, that he was authorised to Consult them on.the formation of a new Government ; and a conversation having , . taken place, the Roman Catholic Question and the affairs of America were conceded. As &pre. liminary question , howtvcr, they felt it necessary to ask i.Vhether. their. .liter . ty. extended. to,the.great Officers of theflousehold; usually included in litica me l arrangents i.:Lordi Moira. ,replitld, that the Prime had laid 'il.P iebtriakiii, inion hhu. ' He felLit impos•sible,,howev4, .t0..-agree in the point 'ils on public grotinds he : deemed it objection-. able... Lords Grey . and Grenville .S.aid, that they. also : acted upon. public pounds, and here the con- versatioaended,with mutual expressions of regret, On what authority then could the Noble tord,state that`the removals intended in the household were greater than ever were meditated before, under a _chang-e of Administration? The object of th c vote of the House was 'to procure an Administration of strength _and efficiency. What would give that '' Strength and efficiency '? The first thing Was a Concurrence and agreement in -- the principles. upon -which they were to ,act : the next was a perfect . union and good underStandinvamongSt the dif • ferent Members—the, la,st,- though not the least, was the good character. that they possessed, and the good opinion which the country e ntertained of their 'principles and talents.. There was another thing which ought. not to be 'omitted,. and that . was a 'conviction in Parliament and in the country, that they possessed the .confidence of him they served. , As to the first proposition, it was not expected to- take a favourable turn ; but upon the secondit• had been said, that the Noble Lords . were not justified in breaking off upon such . - grounds ; bust he would beg to Observe, that it was 00t..50 much their rapture as `tire rupture of the' . ! Noble tord who Commenced, the ncgociation , Those Who contended that they were not justified knew but. little- of . the Constitution 4 It was a :principie,Ontended for, and confirmed bythe Re. - . volutionl a- -. principle which. had dethroned the • House -of Stuart, and raised the Douse Of Han- : over. 9, the Sovereignty of : this Kingdom; _that a . .Kia-vg, who was by law . irresponsible, should have -toponsible:-.Ministera to_adyise 'hint in all,things. It:was the undoubted prerogative of the Crown to . dismiss its ,Ministers, but while it had . them, it should take their, advice in the exercise of all its -prerogatives. The Right Hon. Gentle Man went • back to the Restoration, ,He was unwilling togo beyond . -the Revolution for any Constitutional _- doctrine. He quoted the different . 'instances :in which the Lord .:Chquiheilain . and Master of the Horse were changed,with different changes of Ad stration. ,:The Noble Lords desired ,only to know' if they could . 'exercise the, same power which Was usually exercised in such cases ? hut an objection . had, been taken to it on public grounds, He would, put ,it to the candour of the House, what woukl the people think of the confidence such. Ministers possessed, if they did' not see them exercising those usual , functions in the usual manner, ' and shew • tberebY that there ryas no distinction between the - Great offices .of the Court and.the Great offices of the State? . He was..nOw to make some obser vations less pleasant to himself. ln none of the ,I communications lo the Noble .Lords were they honoured with an interview with his Royal High ness; as was usual on the forming Of. a new Admi nistration, nor was there any thin;lithe proposal it self, or in the manner of it, which couldinduce them to believe that they possessed much of the confidence of the'.Throue. It was' therefore more necessary to shew that they,possessed a constitutional confi dence. He then went into a train of argument to , prove .the importance , of •granting, the .Catholic. Claims, .olrevoking the ,Orders in Council, and ..adopting - economical reform ; and-concluded with _ observing that . of the proposed Addresses, ,he should certainly prefer that suggested by his Noble Friend (Lord Milton) .as most constitutional and consistent with the dignityolParliament. , ... Mr. BATIIIYiST- explained. Mr.-CANNING. observed, that the appeal which the Right Hon. 'Gentleman who had last spoken (Mr. Ponsoilby) did himthe honour to make more than once to him in the course of his speech. and theshare which it was his fortune humbly to have had, ,iuthetransactions so often alluded to in the course. of the debate, - might probably leadthe House to „expect . that lie should trespass shortly upon its_ attention. inexplaining the part he had. in the transactions, This he was the more ready . to do, . because, he-owed it to the Noble Lords,..with whom suecessively, and underwhOm he had acted ...on theoccasiOns alluded to,. to give an explana-. ,tion.of eertaimparticulars upon which he thought, they.•had been misunderstood. In saying thus, however, 'he could assure the Right Honour,- able Gentleman, and the House, .that. he should 'cuter into the,. consideration of . these topics with the same temper, feelings, and spirit, , with which he was . sure the Right Honourable .Gentleman and his friends would do him, and the . Noble. LOrds with whom be had been associated, the same justice to admit they had...been actuated by throughout, as they were ready. to do by - him and 'his Noble Friends, as to .their conduct in the discussions Which had taken place. .His sole Ob ject in riaing;, therefore; was to state to the House the - nature and colour - of the, transactions, as he, and . the Noble-Persons with whom he 'had been concerned, understood them-, and to abstain from - making any unnecessary comment upon them, as well as from any allusion to hiuiself- personally, except in so far as .it may be indispensable to a full exposition, 'and -correct understanding of the subject. The Right Honourable Gentleman had truly stated, that the object of *Tote of the ./' House, in the former instance; was to induce the Prince Regent- to take measures for proViding a strong and efficient Administration—the; Right Honourable Gentleman had also rightly stated the characteristics of efficiency and strength in t i an Administration—but the error into Which the Right Honourable Gentleman appeared to have fallen, if he would allow him to use the expres sion, was, that. he took it for granted that there was only one way of foiming such. - an Admi nistration, and that was, to cut short . the labour of the person appointed to form the Administration,. by leaving him nothing to do but to surrender'his commissiowinto the hands of that man, who could command the greater number of votes in the House of Commons.—When to Marquis Wellesley the commission was entrusted to form an Administration, it was obviously not intended that the proceeding' was to he conducted on the ground of the greatest numerical following in that House. If the principle of the Right Ho nourable Gentleman, therefore, were. to be ad . raitted, nothing would have, remained far Mar- quiz Wellesley to do, when he was called up9u to farm an Administration, but to surrender back his 'commission to his Sovereign, or to request his permission to transfer it over to the Nobln Friends 'of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He was not then contending Whether the views of Mar quis Wellesicy, or those of the Right Hon. Gent. and his Friends were more correct, but stated this merely. to show that there was a difference betvveeti them. The View that was entertained by Marquis Wellesley and himself upon the subject was, cer tainly not when such a Commission was entrusted to a public man, that, because he May not have a great numerical folloWing in the House of Corn- Mons, therefore, both he and his 'Commission .shoild merge in the superior pretensions of those he may confer with, who may have a greater Par liamentary Teaming. If the Right Honourable Gentleman would. but consult th e ' history of,. such transactions 4 . 2be would be satisfied that his was not the principle upon which they were gene , - rally conducted, that the practice founded on his principle was not borne out by the precedents. It was perfectly true that an Administration would be niost strong and efficient when- formed of Mem bers, ainorigst whom there could be no canvass ing of principles, no-clashing , -of contradictory opinions—of men united closely by previous-con sent 'and .concurrence upon all the great leading featUres of policy and government—intimately connected by the ties of confidential intercourse, and the. habitual attachment to long settled prin- Cilles-s 7 andlikely, from this union of private con.: -fic:emie: an& Public .. assoCiation • to . be unani mous .. - . upon . all . the . great measures of state yolicy upon VOillell they would have to de cide. . But when he admitted .thiS to the Right HorOientleman, he admitted a prineiple Which, k ifit were to be acted upon, would render it itn possible' for any change. of Administration to take .place in this country, but such as -would include only the Right • Hon. Gentleinan and his friends. , • He did 'not blame the Right Hon. Gent. for enter taining such a view. All he meant to csay was,. that if such a principle had been stated to Marquis Wellesley, itsvonld not have altered his conduct, though it would have extinguished his commission : it would have prevented him from . entering into details, because it would have been in effect to ' reject his Offer. Where an Administration was to be found or formed in this country, in the state of . parties, wherein there would be no ground's of immediate discussion, no recollec lion of past differences, he was, lie would con fess, at a loss to knOW 'Ilion& such an Admi nistration, if it .cOuld be formed, Would be the strongest, .yet .he was of opinion, and. in this he - concurred with Marquis Wellesley, that an Admi nistration of . considerable strength might be formed of public men, who, though they might pefhapf differ 'upon questions of comparatively minor interest, should yet agree upon subjectsand measures of vital importance,as connected with the external and internal policy of the Em .pire.;. In taking this view of , the ,case, there fore, his, - Noble Eriend .had. selectea the two greet and ; prominent questkons which, appeared most essentially affecting the highest, interests of the State,.-• 'Undoubtedly, ,there were many other points of . doubtfOl policy, upon Which a difference of opinion :alight prevail, whiCh difference, how ever, might in .discussion be accommodated by mutual concession, if not by amicable and effec- - ',toad persuasion on either side. Why even the question of the Orders in Council, which had been adverted to by the Right Honourable . Gentleman, was one of this description—in volving much important matter for consideration, and creating strong if not fundamental ditfe recces. When they came to consider that topic they foresaw' there would be Much difficulty in adjusting it; the difficulty in all its discoura,gements they .did not disguise from themselveS, ,hut they did not despair that by candid and liberaldiseus.don it might-be surmounted. If, therefOre, it should be necessary that there shoUld be a previous con sent upon all points of public policy and principle, it would he, absolutely impossible to form any Ad ministration. The best practical mode then was, to endeavour to obtain a concurrence upon some ~ t , it . great principles, a could not be had upon all points previous to the formation of an extended Administration.. it. was under this impression that Maliptis Wellesley and himself had fixed upon the two propositions ' quoted, as the • basis of ..the new Government ; the one presenting the great leading feature 'of ' internal policy—the other laying ,down the principle of the. whole system of external policy of the • empire. ' it ,was unnecessary for him to repeat, that the basis contained in these propositions embraced coneni - aim' to the Catholics, and an effective, prosecu tion of the war in the Peninsula.-•-a basis upon which it Was confidently hoped that the super .structure of a:strong united Administration might be4ormed. Though these were the main points to be previottdOettled, there were others, the differences upon which, as of minor 'importance, . might afterwardS be adjusted. The question with respect to America, he would not deny, was one which would be very fairly open to discussion. There had been a considerable variance of circumstances since the Orders in Conficil had been first enforced,which might require a deliberate revision ()Vie policy Upon which they were found ed ; and without venturing to state the- opinion, which upon such revision he may entertain upon the solnect, he had no hesitation to state, that he was then perfectly .ready to enter into a serious and dispassionate consideration of . that whole question. : But he felt it necessary here to guard himself by adding, that if it. had been meant to depart from the principles of the policy on which the Orders in • Council. were ori ginally issued, or to abandon the assertion of any part of the great maritime rights of the coup-' try, that would have amounted to a difference which Would be vital to the negociation. With respect to the basis which-had been suggested, he was most ready to admit, that the proposition had been me: by the Noble Lords to whom it had been addres: , -e I in, a fair, candid, manly, and consistent manner. . The objection they took to the second proposition, he admitted; was pit, as it was not, to be denied, that it involved a question of policy rather than of principle,„ But the Right Hon. Gentleman must at the same time admit, that all that was kskea of them in agreeing to the basis, was to recogn se ge - nera.lythe principle of continuing the coute t in