The Sun. — London, England, 1812-04-22 00:00:00

1 . • ~;-. 4 -- - - - - ,---- - -,,----0,- \ . :`,-;,. 4 LI , '-' • ~„: : cz , ,,. ‘ _, 1 111 , ;0. - - 1 ~ 4 ,, -......- . ig . . $-:-* - ~. ..k. ) 0, Li.,'',. is:, 9 -7- : _llrrr :`-i- - -- • ' ( 4 / '" 0' , ,-\'')- . ,y, 14 6 V , 1 \ 4 - . '' . Ar' "af 4 NUMBER 6121.': WE D N i D A 7 , APRIL 22, 1812. PRICE SIXPENCF-HAT.FP,P ICI PERIAL PMT L L-131 LiV Earl. The measures to be adopted would in all pro bability originate in another place. . He was there fore unable to say, at whit perio3 they would come under the consideration of their Lord-hips ; but of this he was quire sure, that whenever the mei:Ores, should be izrought forward in that House, there would be no anxiety on the part of 'his Majesty's Government to pre6pitate she discussion, but that full and,ample time would be afforded for them, and as to the-period, it would then be for their Lord• ships to determine whether the application of their time,, or the measures in question, were the most important. _ _ question ; a question 'not only of such deep coin, merciil interest, but 'of great military and political importance; and more so, than any that ever came under the consideration of Parliament; a question that involved all the vital, all the deiirest principles of Legislation and Government, and all that concerns this vast Empire; and which he thOUght - he should be able to prove, under all the circumstances, 14d been administero so well, and so deeply felt by all ; they should be told, at the present time, it was not intended the subject should be regularly deliberated upon resolutions proposed by both Houses of Parlia ment, involving all the principles on which such a question should be decided. Wtiat had been the form'. r pradice should not, in his . opinion,,be now a question, but what would be the preferable mode or principle for deciding the question at present—a questioß revvaing the Administration of a Govern to art, of more relative importance, p.,.rhaps, than Parliament had ever yet to decide on ; that they should hear that House was not to exercise its j,clg ment upon the first fundamental principles upon which the question should be considered. Be , be lieved that the general basis upon which that Go vernment was now carried on was ,the right ba sis —but it was a basis upon which many im provements m well be founded. ,He . was of opi nion sortie general- principles, as a foundation for . their system of measures, should be p r ima r ily a gree d upon by . ' both Houses, in . the way of conference the opinion of . both Houses, so expressed, should form the basis of this great work, -and he could not avoid ekpressing his astonishment that Ministers should think it rtght to lay any othqr as a basis for the proceeding in this great work, than the sense and opinion so expressed) by both Houses of Parlia ment. Earl then entered into a detailed view of, the phi,- ceedings respecting the Cebulic claims, particnkrly in the Iri,h Parliament in 1792 and 1793, when Noble Earl opposite (we believe the Earl of Buei-. ingritaanshire,"then Mr. Secretary Hobart), wtti aan% Minis'er in that country; and the S i ROUSE OF PEERS. TUESDAY, APRLV-2.1. The LORD ,CHANCELL(4( took his seat on the Woolsack about the usual hour ; when their Lord ships proceeded to forward' the Bills upon the table, and transaCled some routine business. The House then adjourned during pleasure, sonae.time prepa ratory to the expeCted long and important question. 'About five o'clock the House resumed. ORDERS IN COUNCIL. cOuragement experienced in the first in4atice by he advocates of the Catholics, the coming forward of t!•e, Col poratibb of Dublin, and certain other bodies, in OdpoSition . to these claims. He advert e d to th e torn tpunications which took place between theadvocatei of the Catholics, and the then' Governmvot of he, land, in which the latter. (of which he was one), were unsuecessful in their solicitations to ; , klVt.t petitions regularly transmitted to his MAjcsty's Mi nisters in England. They were, however,-ultimately fortunate in' that respect, and the petition tonncl its way to the Throne, throtigh the medium of a Noble Lord, now no who was then at the tread or the'departlieni to which the ;Zia's of Ireland- rn•4'e regul.irly apperOined. (We believe his Lordship' alluded to die late 'NeIIiCOUPt Melville, then cretary DundaS.) ThatNlinister had - the gent Snd firmness - to give up the feelings of. the Irish_ G ) . vernment forthe interests of the—lrish people. The CenserinenCe'wa4, that they obtained the cessions conferred ay ilid• Ad of 170, and : which went to an extent greater than any tiring they ex- Peded to receive'at 'that .time. • Among those who aetively . disfinguiAed . themselvds at-that time aglinst these clairbS was the Corporation of the City of Dublin, the only one which - Government, with 'all their exertions, could get to stand forward - in the present instance. - - • There were several Noble Lords who; he believed, considered themselves, from their tormer condat and declarations,' bound 'to vote against the 'motiOn'he was about to submit. But he • would put it 'to the - House and to these Noble Lords, if a question. - which so deeply - in . ‘ olved the uelf being and the security •of the 'Elipire at large; was trot paramount to that.of the coudud or cha.caaer of an individual ? The consistency of individ;als no proportion in the:scale, when , Atighel the great, the vital importance of the quesOon them. In a general view of the su•jed, scare,ly any considetatiOn struck him more forcibly than one , of regret, 'at'finding that the qp:..stion did not-come recommended w Parliament by iliewhorny of (he Prince. Regent - , or by a - message' brougiit by one of :tits Royal H , glaness's Ministers. 4 - le regretted t 1 ,6 az - tation,of this great question should have tallen' tu one every way iOadrquate to render it, justice.- Tee Noble Earl then adverted to the opirs.on, tp.be once held and avoweciby an Tilbtrious P, - rson. age. It may not be regular to a‘.4ert to entitnent - ,iield by the Illustriout; Pets' iii at the he-s,l of the Government ; but if ire %esil- , w %;:-' , }ed:tra the 9.orrons of 4 IT.. -Prfet , e , - ge!it, iron those'said to be int , ll.aioed by thePrrrrte of Wales, he thought he had a right to the%) as— The Duke of NORFOLK presented a Petition from certain M ,:lufactusers, Traders, and others, of the town of -Birmingham again.t the continuance of the O R k rs which was ordered to tie on on the tank. End FITZWILLIAM presented a Petition to the Eli GREY observer!, that by what 'laconic! col lect Irons tl?e N bie Earl, it Was at this moment un certai,, whether any measure would at all be pro porfed on the subject ; but that at all events, if mea sures were to be proposed, they would not originate in that 1-lousji: so that their Lordships would tie left without any .opportunity of exercising their judg ments until the time was passed, when a full and deliberate consideration as to what that jud.;ment shook] be, could take place. He would be glad to know what chance could exist in the present session for that lull and deliberate di•cussit It .wss now approaching the end of April—the measures were not to originate in that House, and he heal to ask how it was morally possible their Lordships could -have that full and arnp!e tune for deliberai ion they were told of ? Het trusted the House would not suffer itself to be tided with. The Eiri of SUCKI;iGHAM3•I4IIie contendd, that nothing which had fallen lioin him, warranted the langu,age of she Noble Earl. From „yh at . h e sa i d, it did not nece+sailly . follow that i t i t e ie b n ad iea t s lt ) ) ll w e . s . ritigbt not originate in `that f -I °° B e ever no difficulty in staling 'hal it wilt; certainly not intended that the titea.Alies , shuuld oligitiate hi lila', House. - ' Earl STANHOPE. called to the recolle&ion of their Lotd4hips, that tlytre was a Bill of considet able im portance before them, for the bettering trie : condi 7 tion of the peasantry and tenantry of Great Britain and Ireland. - He now gave notice, he should move the second reading of that Biil,on .ricEiy -- next ;: and now moved, that the Lords be sunntnoned for that day, which wad ordered accordinVy. , • CA I . IIOLIC QVEsTIOII. The Duke of .Gt.oticEsTea presented a Peiition from the Unit erfity-'of Cambndg , ..!, 'in cqnsequence, he observed, of the high office he•had the l i n n our to hold with respea. to that great and learoed body.— As far as related to his presenting; the Petitiot., he. wished it to be understood, that. he did not in any way incline either,in favour or againSi the important question which was about to core under discussion. His Highness then delivered 'the Petition . to the Clerk; the prayer of which, for the reasons assLned, was, thlt no farther conee , sions should be in de to ftc Ron - ,an titlthOltc:, — Szc. it w.ai the table. • The Earl of HARDWICKB took the opportunity to state some cticumstances respelling the FoduZiton of the Petition just presented. He adverted to the shortness of the notice, from which numbers in the university, especially several heads of houses, were not apprised of such an extremely important sure being in agitation. The Petition, even under such circumstances, was far from being unanimous ly agreed to; and he stated some divisions- that tot* place, one of which was 2 , 1 to 19. The opinions he held on the question to which he referred were. known, - and in these he,was deciktectlv fix, d, and these he should declare, notwithstanding his high respect for the majority who voted the Petition. The Marquis of LANsbowN a followed, and slated some further circumstances relative to the prodoc tion of the Petition, in order to shew that soffid e ait time or notice was not given of the. intention to hold .the meeting. He concurred in the statements - of the Noble Earl who had just spoken; and begged kave further to add, that if many other persons than those alluded to had been aware of the inten. 'ion, they would have attended for the purpose of negativing the'Petition. He concluded by observ ing, that though he entertained very different senti ments than those expressed in the document in question, yet be deemed it entitled to attention, as the Address of the University of Cambridge, in its corporate capacity, though the Resolution was only assented to by 58 Members of that University. Lord.KENYoN rose, and spoke 'shortl37 to ofder:, conceivi...g that the Noble Earl was proceeding a line of argument neither regular, nor Pat liamen.t.'- ary. The F,ail of DO YOUGUMORE resumed, and (-Am tended that the context 91. what he .had stated v‘ a* not such as was conceived by the Noule.Lord, wt') had done him the honour to interrupt him. Liird KENYON shdrtly explained.. sante et eat, from the Body of Merchants, • Marm faeturers, aett other loyal inhabitants of the town of St afield, to the County ot York, and its vicinity.— Tie Pctition expressed, io streng language, the opi-, titan of the P.eiiiioners respecting these measures, ant! playing /heir Lordships to adopt such measures a° in ter is -win They may deem proper for the purpose of tc.:scinding the same. CALTHORPE presented a second Petition, prec , ielv to the saute effect, from 13irininghana. The Duke of Noa reek took .occasion to o'aserve, that the Petition just presented bad received the aignaturts of InOre than fourteen thousand indivi duals, and urged the propriety of -their Lordships Paying the most serious. attention to a subje& cif atleit vital importance, and tespeCting which the l ellse of -such a large portion of their leilot.v subjeas was so decidedly expressed. Atter a few torus from Earl FITZW7LLIAM, The Earl ot LAUDERDALE observed, that the vaT 'lons applications o l'aliainent upon this important 3 ubied, strongly expressed the opinions anattw feel higs of the great body ot those most interested in 'nd affected by the measures in question. What they alleged against -Those ,ruinous measures was strictly foundei in fait, and this he would be the e more enabled to prove, were the documents which 'e should - move for on Fticiay ordered.to be pro ! duced. The Petithmers took a right view ot the 2 tibject, and he agreed with them,' as he was sure that n o measures eeuld more efieetually xxl the cite rnY titan the means afforded by those Orders in Council. They would tend eventually to the crew~ the n of a Marine for the.enemy, and would, instead of Oiminishing, tend to incrense tile supplies fur _thos e at lines with which lie subjugated the Conti: conjured [heir Lordships to attend to the co " .•,:c h 4 shuttle., tit'long, : coine f L lsld er 4. ion, as involving voinis not turfy vtt.illy af euiing the commercial triad trading interests, out , even the national importance of the country itself. Earl BATHURST strongly ccnitelided that a very Mistaken and erroneous sense of tire t.atuie and el feet of the °Wets in Council was entertained by tho se whose real opinions were' expressed in the language they ILA just heard read. He would put • if to their Lordships what would be the inevitable t fleet of a repeal of the Orders in Councils It would, in fact, be to open the posts of France to i mportations from the Baltic, from the Uniied States America, and various other places; it would be to transfr the cattle advantages of a traffic to the • L i‘•"l l f, which taught otherwise direct itself to this country. £he Earl of LAUDERDALE, in reply,. insisted that the PellUotterSi;) itIVII'a question were .the prefera ble authority. The Duke of MONTROSE deprecated 'all prema lure discus‘ten of a subject by no means before the 11 °hse. He contended that the opinions of Noble Lords nn his side of the House were iiititled to as finch attention and respect as those so loudly urged ' by the Noble Earl. The line of argument and tone held by 'Noble Lords opposite, tended to deceive, instead of to inform the manufacturers upon the subject. They represented that the effect of the tritish Orders in Council was to benefit tte "trade ,Itrld the navtgaiion of the enemy, and to divert the tale of commerce from the ports of this-island.— flis conception of those measures was verydifferent. regaided them as making part Oa wise and just 8) stem of retaliation againii the unprincipled and • aggressive conduct of France, providing that where, t he neutral had not the wisdom or spirit to defend i ts right, the enemy should not reap the advantage of commerce, nor that the satuable products of the West Indies should be carried into ltis_ports. The number of speeches which were Made, nor the, clamour which was raised against these measures, did not alter the nature of the question, or tend it' tbr least to shew their want of wisdom or justice. TRADE TO INDIA. The Earl of DERBY presented a Petition from the Magistrates and Council of tlie town of Liverpool, alleging the advantages of opening a trade to the ;:,st Indies, and praying to be allowed a participa lion in the same. The Noble Erl also presented two other petitions from the same quarter; one , from certain merchants, traders, and ship owners, of the town and port of Liverpool ; and the second from the Trustees, &c. of the Wet Docks established at that port,to a similar effect. These petitions be ll% read in the usual way, were ordered to -lie on the table. Lord Viscount MEeviLLE presented a petition to the like effect from Dunifernaline, in Scotland. • , Ordered to lie on the table. Earl GREY took the Opportunity to inquire of ivlinisters when they intended to bring forward a Atibied of such great commercial and national Ml ' Portance as, that to which the petitions referred, - Under the consideration of the House , The Earl of BUCKINGHAMSHIRE adverted 'to the I . l iitiEtHly, under the circumstances of , giving a pre . %siit or specific answer to the query of the Noble _ _ turd GRENVILLE observed; .it was with sineere and conscious conviction that he' now appealcd_to their Lordships own feelings, whether there did n,.t appear in the King's present Govt-rnmetit, a. fis.ed .intention to annihilate the consequence et that House. (Some of their Lordships cried No, no !)--: 'lbis conclusion he made Irani a thorough obso4 - va lion of their conduct upon every tolPottat.t busi ness they brought forward, it- was studiously and purposely delayed until a period when an . adequate degree of deliberate and paricular attention could not be given by their Lordships. His Noble Fi iend at the head of. the Indian Department told them, and at the same - time when the manufaatirers . of life country were imploring the House for some re lief and mitigation ot their. distresses ; :Own to e ir table , wasloaded wt; ti petitions) imploring th em to take the sullje;_l into coo,ideration ;. that it waslM -15;.ing-ft; Li measure Should be brought forward in that ,P 1 0 , ),. A declaration to that effect he never - before heard. It was their duty to hiing the matter eqe.dly before that House to th e f orma l and legitima' e consid era• lion of their Lo r d s h i p s ; they . were not to sit with their bands folded until it should please Ministers tO bring the matter round to them. It vv_as doubbf u l whether they could enter into the question at 411 this S, , ssion. But it . it were brought forward at such a period of the year, what opportunity cou ld they have for a full and deliberate discussiun ? He must condemn the way in which Government had treated that House with respv 6 t to this great na tional question ; their delays were wil ul. It ap peared that with their Parliament in Leadenhall• street, they had been debating the subject for five years. The public interest, and the convenience of that House, were equally unheeded by them. The Earl of LtviEtti.oot. said he would ne ver per mit it to be asserted, there was a deliberate intention, on the part of Government, to degrade that House, without pointedly' alleging, on the patt ot that Go vernment, that on every occasion, , they had to sub mit measures .of importance to the considera tion of ttn:ir Lordshps, they had duly - consulted the charader, the dignity, arid , the : deliberative fundions of •that House. His Noble Friend had stated the very reverse. of what the Noble Baron had asserted, namely, that , ample time would be given for full deliberation on this must important subject. He must also state, that what was said as to the season of the year, was an obser vation of an irregular nature. No season of they year was improper for deliberation. If any critni nal negled, or deliberate intention to dehy e x i ste d , on the part of Ministers, it may, according to the circumstances of the case, be a regular ground of accusation. But when this was not the c)se,„ nb objedion to any particular seasob, as a season not fitting for deliberation, could be well founded. The sUbjed in question, though one proper to be taken up as early as possible, )et as it respeCterl the term of the Company's Charter, was one which affoided an interval of two years ftotn the present period. That the question must otiOnate in l ane House be fore it could be taken up in the . other was in the ne cessary course of thing;. Their Lordships would recoiled, that this very subject,, when last it was under general consideration, wiginated in the other House, and at. a much later period of a Session than the present. And he begged leave to say, that the magnitude and impoitance of this subject was as much regarded and felt by his Majesty's ser vants as by any other description of persons in the, country; but it was one which obViously required to be fully weighed and investigated by Government as well as Parliament , and it was their intention to afford the fullest time for Parliamentary delrbetat km, and for the consideration of the interests of all those parties vi)ho were involved in the subject. The Marquis WELLESLEY observed, that one, time may be as proper,for legislative deliberation as another ; yet, on the other hand, he [post say, it was with considerable regret he heard a tint of what fell froth his Noble Friend, who well knew the de gree of respeel, esteem, - and love which he bore him. • Namely, that upon this area and inakottant ORDER OF THE DAY. The Order of the Day, 'Ton which their Lord ships were summoned, being read-- Tice Earl of DONOUGUMORE rose to bring forward the motion of which he had given rept:ated notice on the subjeCt. He said, the present was not among those geestions respeding which arguments could be brought forward that were never heard oA any former occasion .; or that. new answers could be given to objedions which were so often made, repeated, and refuted. • These, however, he had no doubt, would be repeated again that night. He had, in the first instance to guard himself against any ohjeaion which may be made as to the time in which this question was brought forward, 'or upon the mire of the present beieg a question which was tw . ce already this Session decided upon by their Lordships. With respea to the first, they would recollea it was close ly 'conneaed with the management of the petitions in Ireland, as involving a degree of misconduct on the part of that Government: In the second instance a measure of great importance was most pre-emi nently referred to, and which went to the question for the dismissal of Ministers. • The question upon which they bad 'now to decide ryas that of the Ca tholic claims, and not one of unw i re of the Miuis ters. Since the subjeet was last before their Lord ships some impottant changes in the Government were made; and he must contend that Noble Lords wbo voted with Ministers upon the former occasion were not in the slightest degree pledged, upon the present ; and he had a right to call for the concur rence of all those Lords, who had on any previous Occa,sion voted for the Catholic claims, notwith standing their votes on the two preceding occasio , is in the course of the •, , present Session. The Noble ,„ ne,raitri of LJONOUGHM'ORE proceeded, and again eXpressed' his regret that sorme intimation of tilt:, - opinions now entertained by 'his Royal Hghne,s on the subject was nut given in a :! i ieech.frem the Thi one. The subject i I qeestion has beer' fora long time under discussion ma general point of view. It was the-present leading object of their endeavours to obtain a full and regular discussion of its merits, in all its views and bearings, in a - Committee of this whole House, in whicn alone a satisfadory detailed discussiOn of tire subject could take place. What he bad said, therefore, was merely to bring the outline of the stAject under their Lordship;' consideration, and to satisfy them it was fit and roper for detailed 'discussion in a Committee. - The proposition, he re peated, had better in every point of view come from Ministers. They had failed in their duty in that re• sped, and. it was a part Wilk duty to temind, then that they had so fadedin the performance of For ten years the consideration of the catbete claims had been refused on the ground of the con scientious scruples of the Sovereign Did any sick impediment now-exist ? To whose scruples were they indebted for the continuairce of that refu.al ; The Prince Regent had on former occasions tes,- pressed a strong and deCide s d opinicin on the Subject.' He might say, that his-Royal Highness had on these occasions pledged and commkte - .1 himself to the sup - : port of the Catholic Claims. He laid a , right to , mention what he kneweo have been his Royal ness's feelings and- opinions before he became lie. gent. He had as much right to mention What . with congratulation as to mention what w.is with regret. It it were denied—it no such con.; scientious scruples existed in that quarter, h y not bring forward the question in the usee.l form ? His Royal Highness had in any case inacie considerable sacrifices to his Ministers, but it !e* had sacrificed to them the feeling on this subject which he had formerly cherished, great' indeed had: that sacrifice been, and ruinous, he feared, it would prove to the country. The question, w hen last before the-House, had been so fully aigueit o n the strong ground of constitutional right, that he would nor go over that giound again. It was against the principle of exclusion at large, that Would now deliver his sentiments. The true principle was, that all his Majesty's subjects were enti.led equal fights. It 'lay therefore on those who oppobed he claims of the Catholics, to shew why the Catholics were not entitled to-those rights It lay en them-to shew, why he who was allowed to command a 1, gt• went, onght never to be allowed to coann.ind an army. It icy on them to shew, whv he who wits allowed to \ fulfil the duties of a -Maeistrate at