The Sun. — London, England, 1812-03-11 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PART,I,4IIIEN2 HOUSE OF PEERS, TUESDAY, MARCH 10. KINGSLAND PEERAGE. In a Comtniti;;cif4ri;,ifege;,. tti e ir Lordships entered upon the consideration of, the• claims of Matthew Barnwell, Esq. to the honours and digni ties of Viscount Kingsland, and Baron Torvey, in Leland. Mr. Hart, and Other Learned Gentlemen, Were heard before the Committee; and several wit nesses were examined , . The further consideration was adjourned by the Committee till Thursday next. The Attorney General attended on the part of the C. 4 1-o wn. The consideration of the claims of Sir James Nor tiilTe lanes, Bart. to the Roxburgh Peerage, was fixed for to-morrow. The House then resumed, and, after prayers were readobeir Lordships proceeded to forward the Bills upon the Table; among these the Oak Bark, and the Members' Indemnity Bills, weze read a second time. CONFERENCE: The Expiring Laws Bills, and several private Aas, *ere brought up by S►r James Graham and others, tjembers horn the Commons, and severally read a fast time. Lord WALeot,t, attended by several Members, presented a message from the COmtlion4, importing, that that House requested a conference with their Lordships on the subjetl of their disagr, ernent with certain amendments proposed by their Lordships, to one 01 the clauses of the Frame Breaking' Prevention sent up by the Cornmoos. , . After the deputation trOm the . Commons bad re tired, !Join the bar, the question was put, on the - proposition from the COMITIOII4, which was agreed to by' their Lordships; and the deputation appear ing a second tune.at the bar, the LORD CHANCEL LOR informed them thereof, and that the desired conference should be presentlY'held in the Painted Chamber. In a short time Mr. Quarme, Aging Usher of the Black Rod, appeared at the Bu, and informed their Lordships, that the Managers from the Com ntous pre waiting .for the confereticz.., in the Paint ed Chamber. Accordingly, the following Lords were appointed to manage the same on the part of` the House, viz. The Earl 4 of Aylesford, M.rnsfield, Liverrool, Harrowby, Bishops of Chester, Kildare, and Lord (Earl) Lauderdale. Theis Lordships forthwith 'repaired to the Painted Chamber. . On the return of the Managers, the Earl of AYLESFORD reported, that the of the Commons communicated' their reason for disagree- Ang with the amendment proposed by their Lord- Ships to the BiII, in page 4, line 32, in the intro duttion of the _words " or either," , viz.—Because the said amendment is unnec , ..4sary, inasmuch as the provisions in the said Bill are sufficient for.the Purpose ; and, that the Couttrions decline offering 1 1 1 other re.lson. ' he Report of the conference was, on the:motion ()L the Earl of LIVERPOLL, ordered to be taken into consideration to- nos row. COUPAR JAIL DILL On the question for the second reading of this Bill, Counsel were heard for the petitioners against the measure, and also in support of it : viz. Mr. ADAM, junior, for the former ; and Me,s s. MAC.. Q - 01 , 10GLIIE and HARRISON, in support of the mea sure. After the Learned Gentlemen had concluded, The LORD CIIANCELLOA, in the course of his ob. servations on the measure, said there were some points respeding the questiou of, the policy of, the Bill; on which he did not feel sufficiently informed to make up his mind. .le proposed-a delay of the' second reading,till to-morrow in that view. _ _ The Earl of LAUDERDALE was for proceeding immediately with toe Bill, upon the con•ideration • that the part .of the subject alluded to by the Noble and Learned Lord should be discussed at the third reading, The Lonn CHANCELLOR thought the measure, in thatrestted, may be fully discussed after it came from a Committee. • The Bill was then read a second time, and cow naitted for to-morrow. The Earl of LAUDERDAtt oojetled to this as too early a day ; and after a law s words from the Earl of MORTON, it was agreed the Committee should sit pro forma to-morrow, and then adjourn their in- Vestigations till Friday. Mr. Richmond, from the Commissioners of the Customs, presented a return of the Importations from the coast of Holland from the Ist of October 'to the sth of 'January last, together with Copies of the Forms of Licenses under which the same were made, which were ordered to lie on the table. Ajourned. ROUSE OF COMMONS. TUESDAY, MARCH 10. On the motion of Mr. CALCRAFT, the Committee on the Marine Mutiny Bill was postponed until to morrow. Mr. Richmond, from the Custom-house, pre senteL an Account of the Spirits imported from Holland since Ootober last. Ordered to lie on the Table.- On the motion of Sir J. SHAW, the St. George's Fields Improvement Bill was read a second time, • and ordered to be committed: Sir A. ProoTr obtained leave to bring in a Bill for the Relief of Infant Suitors in Courts of Equity, en titled to Stock or Annuities in the Public Fonds, transferable in the Bank of England. The Bill was immediately brought in, read a first time, and or dered to be read,a second time to-morrow. Lord WALPOLE reported at the Bar, that the House of Lords had agreed to hold a conference with the House of Commons in the Painted Cham ber, on the subject of the Amendments made by the Lords in the Nottingham Frame-breaking Bill. A Committee (consisting of most of the Mem bers present) was immediately appointed, and went forth to bold the said conference. • On their return, Lord WALPOLE informed the House that the Committee had communicated to the . Committee of the House of Lords the reasons which „t induced the House of Commons nut to izree to their Lordthips' Amendments. The Wenderers' Bill was read a.third time and sassed. The Dublin Coal Bill went through a Com mittee; the report of which was ordered to be re ceived -to-morrow. A Message from the Lords announced their Lord-' ships' assent to the Drury-lane Theatre Bill, with several Amendments, to which they desired the con currence of the House of Cummons. Mr. W. POLE broucfht in a Bill to continue, for a time to be limited, the Drawbacks on Sugar exported from Ireland. Read a first, and ordered to be read a second time. REVERSIONS. Mr. BANKES, after a few prefatory observations, in which he slated, that the Bill he was about to move for was similar to that introduced the Session before last, but that it was hicobjed to make it as generally acceptable. as possible, obtained leave to bring in - a Billl° make provision, for a time to be limited, respeding certain grants of Vices. The Bill was immediately brought in, read a first time, and ordered to be reed a second time on Thursday. FOREIGNERS'IN OUR ARMY: Lord FoeksTotse rose to make his promised mo tion relative to Foreigners in the British Army. — During the American war, when there ' were only 5000 Foreigners in our army, considerable jealousy had existed in the country ; and surely now that there were 30,.000, that jealousy ought at least to re vive. .We it respect to the mode ,in which these Foreigners had been introduced, he admitted that it might not be an actual and positive breach of a . law, but there were. several Acts of Parliament which occasioned in his mind great doubt as to the strict legality of that mode. These were the Acts of the 34th and eeth of the King, authoriSing his Majesty to receive into his service the Foreigners therein mentioned, and thereby implying that it was not lawful so to receive them without, an Act of Parlia ment. At present they existed in this county in large bodies of cavalry,- infantry, artillery, and engi neers. They had a staff of their own, Generals of their own, and all the appointments of an indepen dent army; and further than that, some foreign Ge nerals actually had the command of districts ; as for instance, Ge - neral Linsingee, to .whom militia and other British regiments actually reported. But this was not all. Foreigners had been even introduced into our native' corps. All the old feelings on that subject had been done away, and there was scarce ly ,a British Regiment in which the names of Fo reig•sers were not to be found in the muster-roll.-- In some cases they wete actually promoted from Foreign Reginichtsinto British ; and he instanced a transfer of that kind from the German Legion into the loth Hussars. Nothing cou:d be more cen surable than the attempts made in every respect to assimilate British regiments to Germans. Foreign ers were admitted into the 10th and 15th Hussars, although Irishmen were refused. He adverted to a permission given by the Magistracy of Nottingham, to the solders to act as peace-officers. If these soldiers should be foreigners, what mischiefs might not ensue ? It had been held in various cases, and particularly in that of Sir Francis Burdett, that the duties of a soldier merged in those of a citieen.—, It was certainly odd, in the case to which, he- had j ist alluded, that there • was such a large troop of ci tizens all clad in his Majesty's clothes. But, sap posing they had: been Germans, how would the country have felt on - the occurrence that took place ? What, indeed, could be more derogatory from every honourable principle, than to punish Englishmen who enlisted into a foreign service, at the very, moment that' we held out all possible inducement to Foreigners to enter the English ser vice ? Among other observations on the subject, the Noble Lord took occasion to remark on the ap, pointment of Count Menster, as one of the Com missioners for the management of his Majesty's pri vate property. He wished to have the great legal opinions on the other side upon this appointment, To him it appeared, that as by law an alien could not purchase lands for himself, it was questionable whether he could purchase them in trust for another. He concluded by moving, " T)iat a return be laid before the House of all persons born out r_lthe Kingdoms of i: ngland, Scotland, and Ireland, or of tr a dominions thereunto belonging, except such as might be born of English parents, who were serving in any of his Majesty's land torces, except foreign corps." • Colonel PALMER, id a very low tone of voice, ap peared to us to be explaining the circumstances at tendant on the reception into some of our regiments of German prisoners of war. We understood the Hon. Gentleman to state; that their services were accepted in consequence of a petition from them selves. . . Sir J. SEABRIGEIT deprecated the introduction of foreigners into oar native regiments,,but saw,no oh jeClion to the increase of foreign corps. Lord PALMERSTONE contended, that what had been done, was fully justified by the existing I .aw. If Foreign Officers distinguished themselves in the British service, he could' not see any impropriety in giving them• active situations on the Staff, either at home or abroad. With respeCt ,to General Lin singee, he had before told the Noble Lord that he was misinformed as to the command of that gallant General, which extended only to the depot of the German Legion. The provisions of the At of the 44th of the King (under which the German Legion was raised) had completely removed most of the grounds of the Noble Lord's objeClions. The Noble ' Lord, adverting to the occasional merging of the • duties of the soldier into the citizen, ' had reprobated the possibility of the interference of any foreign soldier ,to prevent any breach of the peace—to prevent felony for instance. Now really, unless the Noble Lord was prepared to argue that a foreigner in civil life ought not to be allowed to interfere for the pre vention of a felonious transaBion, for his own part, he did not see how the Noble Lord could - be justi fied in contending that a Foreigner in military life would not be competent to such an interference. — The Noble Lord observed, that the At of Settle ment passed when a foreign Sovereign had mounted the Throne, from whom it might be reasonably ap prehended that he would give the reins to his indul gence by the introdua ion of his countrymen. To guild against such introduCtion, therefore, the Aa was made. But now no danger could be expeaed. Circumstances were go completely altered, that it would not be fair to say that it was proper to prohi bit now what was hthen prohibited. The war was or 811dh a nature as to make it necessary to employ foreign troops to supply the drains on the Conti nent. With respell to what had been stated about the immense levies that Bonaparte dra as from the resources of foreign nations ; that was. true; he dragged Germans from their country to fi g ht in Spain—ltalians to Russia—and Poles to Italy. No serious danger could be apprehended from the em ployment of foreigners in our service, as the num ber of them was limited by law, and the greatest part were serving abroad. The Noble Lord had no objedion to the motion, if it were not for the diffi culty which would arise in producing the.de , ired returns. An obje&tion certainly would arise .as to the names, because the publication - of those names on the Continent might do certain mischief to the individuals, in the event of their being taken pri soners by the enemy. The number was already known by reference to the Army Estimates, and there were none in any of the regiments of any con sequence except the 60th regiment. He should for these reasons oppose the motion: Str Jonar NEWPORT contended that the preamble of the 44th of the King, expressly provided for granting commissions, by stating that in such and such battalions " therein they should serve." It would not therefore he contended, becauie the third clause omitted those words, that, therefore, it was an exception to the whole of the A&. He was one of those old fashioned Members, whothought that the •guaids thrown around the Constitution by our forea fathers, were worth preserving now. It would .be wise and predent not to deviate from those rules prescribed by those guards. If the principle was to be admitteJ, by riegrees the whole; of the army might be composed of Foreigners. He deprecdted the holding out to the people then idea that they cannot defend their own country. The pride and glory of the great LordChatharn was that the people could defend themselves, and he was, the means of removing those Foreigners, at that time obnoxious, and of awakening the „peoPle from the state of apathy and torpor into which they had sunk. ' He thought the pradice would tend to depress the spirit of the people, and therefore was against it.. An Hon. Member referred to the Preamble in the Ad of Settlement, to strew that it had reference to the employment of Foreigners in after times. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT declared that he was ill prepared to discuss the subjea, because 'he was so deficient in modern lore in respect to the principles of the Constitution. Any one, after hearing the dodrinei broached this night, might suppose that a new sera had arrived, and that for the first time feel ings of jealousy had been excited respeding innova tion. The History of the Country; anterior to the Revolution, furnished ample proofs of the jealousy of our ancestors on the, occasion : one of the ex press stipulations of Magna Charta (made too with a native Prince on the Throne, who had, only about 2000 Foreigners in pay),was, that the people should not Isy down their arms until those Foreigners were discharged.—ln later times, too, when the sttuggle for liberty had nearly exhausted her, and unk in the prerogatives of. the Crown, in the reign of the 'Stuarts, particularly of Charles I. Gentlemen might read that famous Remonstrance of i 64 t, in which a variety of grievances were stated, brit the greatest one of which the people complained was the employ (tient of Foreign troopse which that King, now call ed through courtesy " the Martyr," (but if he was a Martyr, it was on account of his own obsti nacy, in endeavouring to subvert the liberties of the subjea), had supported.. In that glorious era of our history, the Reformation, in the reign of Queen Elizabeth, similar in point of warfare with the pre sent, for she had to contend *with as many powerful enem'es a; we have now-:--the Spaniards, aided by the Guises and the force they could bring—lreland in a state of disturbance still more dangerous than ,now—and Scotland divided from the Crown of England, what did that Queen do ? ' She did not depend for security upon Foreigners, but she merely applied to the people, satisfied that, reigning as she did in their hearts, the country was safe, and.what .was the consequence ? They carried her . through the difficulties. Her name was then, and had ever since, been looked up to with. veneration. Why, therefore, was the country called upon now to employ and to:trust for its defence to Gerrit an troops? To be sure, he had not the same jealousy or Jear Of German mercenaries as of mercenaries of another description in a certain place. The Ho nourable Bart. then observed, that his Noble Friend had said nothing to disparage the Colonel Of the oth Regiment, it was to the appointment of Colo nel Quintie that he objected ; and he (Sir F ) saw no reason for placing Germans over the heads of British Officers, and, abo've all, to command dis tricts. Instead of trusting to this sort of defence, he would recommend Government to turn their atten tion to Ireland, and to enlist the hearts and minds of between four and five millions of the people,in that country. A great deal had been said about the Cori stitulion, without seemingly knowing what it really is. Volumes of law had passed since ..the Ad of Settlement, to him totally incomprehensible. Tire of Settlement was a compact between the So vereign and the people, which ought not to be vio lated on eithet side. Much had been said about enlistment from Gaols. He thought that the con strudion pet upon the conduct of the unfortunate sailors found in the army of France, when our arms capturedt be Island of Mauritius, was not a corred one. To try men for high treason, and execute them as trai tors for the same sort of aa which we encoerage our selves in the subjeda of the enemy was too much. The material part of the question, however, was Whether we had a Constitution, and whether it would not be more advisable to adhere to it, and to depend upon the people for perfed security. In re sorting to the first principles rather than to throw them away, security was to be found ; that would be the wiser plan. He could not see any difficulty in making the returns; the IL.M4S of ,the Officers were published the Army List, and, therefore, there could not be any delicacy in not disclosing them, as they were lenown already to the enemy. The rea sons which had been urged against the. motion on those grounds, were mere pretences, and not satis . faaory to his mind. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that the question did not embrace a variety of to piCs, as to whether the Statute, of the 44tlaand 46th of the King were politic or expedient, but whether the construction was right which the Nub!e Lord and the Hon. Baronet had put upon them. He was disposed to contend that their construction 'was wrong, and,that no blame could be imputed to the Goyernmet-. for hdviug proceeded upon those Sta. tutee. The obserration of ,his Hon. Friend was ! right, when he referred to the Preamble of !he Att of Se:tlement, for that Att lirld refereoce to contin gency,out he would not go the length of saying that it operated as a repeal of the ConstitutionAl Law of the land. He would admit then, that the 44,n of the King was contrary to the Ad of S-_-tilement, As far, however, as he could form opinion upori it, the Act had two distinct provisions —she one for enlisting foreigners into corps, specifi cally to serve. in foreign parts, and the other having a general application as to the enlistment. These provisions were not under discussion now. It was true that this country, both at home and abroad,. had.the aid of these persons; bat could,any man, looking at the state of the army and navy, say that this country trusted for its defence and protenion to foreigners ? It was the peculiar nature of the present war, that all the means for carrying it on, adapted to British feelings, and to British subjects should be employed.. With those views foreigners were em ployed, and the first employment was from among the Hanoverians, who were driven from ;heir own. country by the incursion of the enemy. Could that description of foreigners be viewed with a ' jealous eye, or &id they come within the prin ciple of the obje6.ion ?—They certainly did come within the meaning of the letter of the Ad. From time to time, the principle had been extended as occasion required. The Hon. Baronet had made some aservations respelling the trial of the sailors found in arms. But he would put the case in answer of the forcible seizure of the S:ianiards under Ito- rnana, who were marched forward„ and forced to , serve against the interests of their country, until re lieved by being taken by this country into its service. We enlisted teem therefore out of a service into which they were compelied to enter. Was there any analogy in the cases ? Was the case shinier to that of our sailors ? The principle of enlisting foreigners was to fight the battles of their Own country under our banners. With respect to the infringement of the Constitution, the Aa of 44 was enlarged by that. of 46, when the last Administration was in power, of course the present Government could not be blamed for carrying into effect the prop, visions of that Ad. The Right Hon. Gentleman contended, that the Apt legally interpreted autho• rised general enlistment, proceeding upon the prin ciple of granting Commissions and Letters of Ser vice to appoint Staff Officers, as tie understood.-- [General Tarleton signified his dissent.] —The Gala 'ant Officer might and certainly ought to be better informed on that subject. General TARLETON observed, that twenty years ago Letters of Service were given for raising Regi ments. They might now to be sure hear a diffeient signification. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER contended, that the third section referred to went merely to cover all that the Noble Lord complained of. It would have been certainly highly objectionable; if permission had been given by the Ad to engraft Foreign Officers into all regiments of the line. The Right Hon. Gentleman then alluded to the appoint. ment'of Count Munster, which he had recommend ed in perfea ignorance of the extent of his Majesty's private property ; but conceiving it likely that part of that property might be of Hanover extradion, if he might eo eacpress himself, he thought informa tion might therefore be derived from that Gentle man. It the appointment was illegal, be trusted the House would dired it to be correeted; and the per son recommending the' appointment indemnified. With respect to the Noble Lord's motion, great dif ficulty would arise in producing names from Portu gal, the East and West Indies. As to the numbers, it was admitted that greater numbers were abread than was authorised by law, but necessity enforced it. There would, as his Noble Friend had statel, be difficulty in acceding to his motion. , General TARLETON recolledecl that letters of service were given for raising regiments during the- Anierican war.. In. 179 e,, while Lord Amherst was Commander in Chief, he applied for one-and was refused. They now certainly had . a double mean ing. As to the .facilities in obtaining returns, it must be recolleded that returns were made every year at the War Office, as to the age > , size of the men, and whether enlisted for limited service or otherwise. He was glad' the subject was before 'Parliament, for if the war was to be carried on in the same manner as' hitherto, we could not, in his opinion, 'have too great a number of Foreigners in our service abroad; but be was against taking them into segiments at home. It was like mixing a baser alloy with gold and silver. His opinion of British soldiers was well knower ; he bad the most puled reliance on them. It was the opinion of Marshal Turenne, and of Villiers, hi the wars of Marl borough and of Wolfe, that English soldiers were the best in the world. J.ord .A. HAMILTON 'deprecated the enlistment of foreigners to a great extent, especially of Officers, when so many British Officers were unemployed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that the. Ad only extended to the termination of the war,.and a few months after that period, and then Foreign Officers ceased to hold commissions. • Mr. BENNETT wished to know why the Irish nation were treated with such indignity as to be re• fused, by order, serving in.the loth Hussars • The CHANCELLOR Of the EtCHEQUBR knew no thing of the fad. Colonel Pareee,'in reply to the Hon. Gentle man, stated, that he did not know any sueh order was made. Their frequent desertions, however, was an objection to theit being taken into the re- giment. Lord FOLKESTONE, in reply, strongly insisted on the propriety of granting the returns he called tor, which he contended could do no harm. He enu merated various inconveniences arising , -from the number of foreign troops taken MI6 our pay, and greatly objected to trusfing•the defence of this coun try to foreigners who had done but little in defence of their own. This - policy he admired no mo.e than' he did that sort by which the Right .1-lon. Gentleman h►d defended it, and under all the cir cumstances of the case he hoped the papers would not be refused. The OHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEaUER said he would not objed to the motion of the Noble Lord if it were not extended to the Officers and in:-n now serving abroad. .Lord FOLK-01'0NR then begged le.ave to withdraw tt, Lid