The Sun. — London, England, 1812-04-29 00:00:00

I.I.IPERIAL PAIL I ENT ROUSE OF PEERS. TUESDAY, -APRIL 28. In a Committed of Prk;ileges, which sat only for A few micutes, the further consideration of tlle cases of the Borthwick and R ox b urg h P eerages was ad 7 )(turned till Thursday. - Atter the House was resumed, their Lordships proceeded to forward•t he Bills upon the table. TRADE TO INDIA. The MarOis of STAFFORD presented a Petition from certain Manufattureis and others, of the town of Walsal, in Staffordshire, praying that the trade to the East Inthes may be thrown open to his Ma jesty's subjects•at large, &c. AP• (ilion to the like effea from the Town of Wednesbury, was presented by one of their Lord , ships. 'hie Duke of DEVONSHIRE presented one from the Ciiy of Waterford, in Leland, against the je ne% ai of the East India Company's exelusiire rho pop*. One to a similar - effect " from Wigan, in Lanca., shire, was presented by the Earl of BALCARRAS. These Petitions were severally ordered to lie on the table. Lord GRENVILLE presented a Petition from the # Mayor, Burgesses, and Commoners, forming the Corporation of the City of Bristol, praying, for the reasons therein assigned, that their Lordships would • not consent to a renewal of the exclusive privileges. of the East India Company, &c. The Petition was read at length by the Clerk. Upon . which Lord GRENVILLE said, that in rising to move that this Petition EL, he on the table, he could not avoid iecaling their Lordships' attention to what took place on a former evening respecting the intended discus sion on the great national question to which the Petition referred. They were told it was intended to bring forward these discussions at an early ensu ing period this Session. They were all agreed that . the queii;oo was not only of the greatest import ance t o the commtrcial interests of the country, but involvi. g, at the same time, some of the high est interests on which the Legislature could be called on to deliberate. This subject, great and extensive as it was, Le held, it would be utterly im possible, were they to confine themselves even to the commercial pint of he question, to discuss it in a ht and proper manner, such as its importance re quired; to wnat remained of the Session. The sub ject was recur ,inencted to toe attention of Parlia -- went from the Throne at the beginning of the Ses- Four mooths . hacl now elapsed wi t h out a mo ment of time bell bestowed upon it : but now, %vie n they were iuld the subject was very nearly ripe tor consideratiOn, their Lordships were expeCi• ed to remain in the, same state of utter inactivity with repec.i to it, waitieg until they should receive lessons from the_ otheizHouse of Parliament on• the sion. subjtql, and it vvus brought before'thern in the shape of a B 1. A Noble friend Of his had sug gested a made of proceeding, in which the subject c.'uid be brought before .both Houses of Parliament, where tirt tOueliollB of the one House could tint be nectssarily excluded, until the other branch of the Legisiature„Lad taken its final leave of the business; but a mode . arid system of deliberation in which both Houses could reciprocally afford light and assis►ance to t ac't 'other. He trusted some on,e of his Noble Eicnds would come forward this Session, and bring the subject befole the House in the shape of Reso lutions, involving the consideration, whether, on just grounds, the trade, not only to the East but to every other part of Ale Globe, could be pre vented from becoming general,- or confined esclu rhiVe4 to arty part, of the Kingdom. In this train of discussion, he trusted, they all wished to see it ; and he again expressed hiS hope, that some Noble "Lo s rd would, were it not done by the King's Go- vernment, bring the subject before the House in the shape of Restlutions. But this consideration was of ,great and imti ediate importance, namely, that it -ap peart:d iron communications which have gone forth to the wt;rld, though not officially made, and even from the avowal of Ministers, that they were not even now adequately. pr, pared to come forward. His Lotd3hip concluded, by moving, that the Peti- lion do li , on iht, table. Tile Earl of BUCKINGHAMSHIRE averred that his Majesty's► Gov:rument felt and cniertaioed the strongest desire, and the most determined resolution, to propose nothing to Parliament which they were Satisfied ir.•their own minds was, upon this great oc cithion, nor c,nducive to the general interests of the -- country. Ha Nwnie Friend and the Huse were *ware,- it was a subjea whi..h issolved such a col- li ,on of interts , s, ilia' there could be no intention on .he pit of hi, Majesty's Gnvernnnent, as he had taken, th,-; liberty ni slating, to precipitate the dis- cussion of the measure. With respett to the par 11,:ular course of 1 rocreding to be ad , pted, a variety of opinions rwiy arise; 1:1,t with respect to tl,ose avowed by is Nobly Friend on that band, tie would beg to look to what was his own condud oti a sinyi- lar — occasion,‘vhile fOrtning,ap,?.rt-of the 'then Go- vernmt Bt. He surely would nut pretend to state that rlt subjed. wag not eq , ,ally important in the yrar 1793 to what it now was". At that time, his Noble k't lend Oischarged his duty in the manner h thought most aJvantogcous for the purpose, when hu I.ursued a course directly the reverse of what he now reccimmended. He was sure if consistency were to be found in any indit idual, his Noble Friend could not object to the adoption of • it similar course Oil the present OCCA3ICiII. _ Lot's: GRENVILLE begged leave to assure his No ble Friend that in the present case, the very thing AN' ich he bad supposed he should not say, was what be G ) ceitainly meant •to say, pnd be cause it ~ Aits'stiii-tly.t. r t.e. He must protest, how ever, ogati!Sl an'y comparison of the importance of tho question in 1793, a:.(1 at the present period.— At that time there did not exist ti.at gre.it,irnmense, 0(141 even , tve differeme at ojnion which now evi- dently -xisted. The questkn then was, whether it were ptuper to continue, for a hunted \time, the 11 , ,tetrt then in evstence. At present the strongest iitf er e nr e was ni.innested, were it only from the tit:memos Petitions and apilications to ihe Legisla tjne tiuut every part of the country. Th. se, who, t,- tie former occasion, were of opinion !hat no ought to Lic made,. might have cowitiaed the period of thp Session at which * they 'am for ward,-abundantly sufficient ,tpr agitating the opera, tion in that point of view ; may, on the same prin ciple, now consider a sitnifar period for discussion totally insu,fficienr, when their opinions were chang ed as to the grand question of continuation. What ever the difference of opinion may be upon almost all other points, they were all decided that a great and effedual change must take place in 'the whole system ; a consideration which would bear no com parison with the mere queStion of continuance. But there was another consideration which it was itripos sible any Noble Lord could overlook—that which was presented by a view of the distresses of the Country, by the cries and lamentations of their fel low subjects, for opening new markets, when tfe trade and commerce of the country were in the lowest and most distressed situation ever known—a situation to which the weak and wretched policy of Ministers lead reduced them. The subject and the questions arising out of it were now greatly and es sentially different ; they had to look more especially to every poasible means of reviving the wonted coin resercial prosperity of the country, the very existence of which was now at stake. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said he must be allowed to observe, that there was no disposition whatever, nor any reason to suppose there was, en the part of the King's servants to avoid any course of .proceed ing that would give to Parliament and to the coun try the fullest opportunities of deliberating on the' subject in question. Even if the course adverted to was adopted; it would still be at the option of any; Noble Lord •to bring for Ward any of the great branches of the subject' to consideration under 'se parate discussion. With resped to what was said of the occasion in 1793, it be were not mistaken, there were also at that time the strongest representa tions from all the manufacturing towns, and soliciting that the trade may then be thrown open to the country at large: and an arrangement had been pro posed, by which it was thought that considerable benefits in the way of trade may be derived by indivi duals through the medium of the Company. Much difference of sentiment existed whether this turned out to be the expeCted boon or not, but he did think, that whatever the object of the arrangement was, that it had not answered the purpose for which it was intended by those who introduced ii. There was an essential change in the law, as appeared by what had.been adopted, partly from the state of the thing itself, and partly in consequence of the re presentation of those bodies: In another point of view, that part of the queatien was misrepresented, namely, in that period being one of unexampled piosperity. He was far from being insensible to all the difficulties and dangers of the present moment —not this ayes the first time he ever heard the year 1793 pointed out as one of great prosperity. Orr the contrary, it may be doubted, possibly with the exception of the present, whether there was ever a period in which the Universal commercial distresses of the country were greater than at that very pe riod. Tile . measures which the Government, of which the Noble Baron (Lord Grenville) was a member, piOposed,for the relief of those distresses, viz. by loans and advances of 'Exchequer bills, were a proof that he was under a most material misap• prehension; and he must say, that at the former period a tnetetial change in the system in question then took place, 'and especially with respect to the general state of the trade. The Earl of LAUDEADALe contended, that a greet and striking difference existed in the staid of the question at present, and at the period of 1793. — They had not then, as now, a prospect of India ben% a burthen upon the finances of the country. A Noble Marquis, then in his eye, had most ably demonstrated the great benefits which would result froth a free trade to India ; the militaty and politi cal parts of the question also constituted an essential difference. Neither was there any comparison be tween the state Of this country at the. period allud ed to and the present time. They well recollected how soon the country recovered from the tempo rary calamities of that year—calamities which were considered by eminent Statesmen of that day, as in some points of view, proceeding from the excessive prosperity of the count r y at the t i me . Earl GREY commented on the line and principle of proceeding which obtained in the former instance with respect to the discussion of this great national question. It was no reason, he said, because the Legis lature might have negletted its duty on that, occasion, that it should do so at present ; be hoped that if the subject were to be brought forward, it would .be at.a period, when it would - be possible to enter in to it with some prosped of being able to do jus tice to the extent and magnitude of its impOri ance. The petition was then ordered to lie upon, the table. CHARGE MADE BY VIE AMERICAN GOVERN. MENT. Lord HOLLAND, before the House proceeded to any of the ether Orders of the Day, begged leave to call the attention, particularly of a Noble Earl pre sent, and their Lordships, to a point of no small im portance. What he alluded to was a tumour which had recently prevailed. It was known from accounts received, that a message had been sent by the Presi dent of the United States to the Legislature of that country, intimating that a conspiracy had been form ed 'by an Agent of the British Government against the United States, and lie understood that the mes sage was accompanied by some docutne.:nts, which imported that the person was immediately accredit ed either by the Noble Earl over against him, the Noble Secretary of State, or the Commander in Chief of his Majesty's troops in that quarter. He did not rise for the pot pose Of making any .charge. He trusted and hoped that the Noble Lord, or some other person in an official situation, would be able to give a direct disclairrier and contradiction of what had been alleged on the occasion to 'which he had alluded. The Earl of LIVERPOOL s4id, lie had not the least objection to give the Noble Baron every satisfac tion he could require on the point alluded to. With respect to the Message of the President of the Unit ed States, it had certainly not come to the know ledge of the King's Government in any official shape, or in such a shape that it could be regularly communicated. He had, however, no great dif ficulty, without the least reseration, to disclaim for himself, and he Was sure it could also be disclaimed by any of the persons connected with him in his Majesty's Government, that in any ad of theirs, or through any person whatever, they had never in- Leaded to do any thing which had for its objeCi a separation of any one pat of the dominions of the United States from another. That with respe& to the correspondence, he wished it to be perfectly un derstood that With regard - td any person being .em ployed as alleged, it was without any authority whatever-on the- part of his Majesty, and wi , bout even the knoWledge of the fact that any such indi vidual was employed; and witti respect to, any knowledge of the alleged object, fie was Satisfied the respectable person alluded to only required such formation as may be-necessary for the - security of that part of his Majesty's dominions which hego •verned. The situation of that individual - rendered certain information necessary; but as to any inten tion on the part of any one connected with his Majesty's Government, to foment any dissensions among the United States, was what he expressly disclaimed. Lord HOLLAND wished to know[whether it was meant, that the individual, Captain Henry, was not employed in any capacity by his Majesty's Govern ment ? or that they did not know that he was so employed ? , . The Earl of LIVERPOOL explained, that Go vernment never authorised 'such employment ~ot Captain Henry, nor did they ever know of his being employed at all, until some tiftie aft e r his return from Quebec; and, h e a dd e d , i t was his (Lord Liverpool's) firm belief and persuasion, that he was only einployed for the purpose of obtaining 'information. Lord HOLLAND expressed hii opinion,. that in - such a case, were it only for the satisfaaion of the Public, some information should be shortly laid be fore the House on the subjeft. " • PROTESTANT DISSENTERS. Lord HOLLAND presented a Petition from the 'Protestant Dissenters embodied in Societies in the cities of London and Westminstei, praying for the repeal and abrogation of all penalties and legal disa bilities imposed on all descriptions of his• Majesty's subjects, on the score of their religious tenets . and persuasions, &c. The Petition being read by the Clenk, and order- ed to lie on the table, Earl. STANHOPE announced his intention shortly to introduce a Bill for carrying into effect the prayer of this admirable Petition, which he thought would tend to render a most essential service to man kind. • A variety of documents were presented from the Bank of England, pursuant to recent votes of their Lordships. The Irish Distilleries Bill, and,a few others,were brought tip from the Commons, and read a first time. 'COLD COIN BILL. The order for the ,second reading. of ihiA Bi being moved, ETrl BATH URST rose, and in an able and elaborate speech of some length, in which he displayed the 'greatest information on the general subjeti to w hien the Bill referred, evinced the policy and necessity of their Lordships concurring in the measure then un der consideration ; and more especially demon strafed the non-depreciation of the paper currency. The Noble Earl concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill. Lord KING strongly opposed the measure: one of his leading objections to"which was, that it %tent effeetually to constitute Bank notes a legal tender, ar►d this important consideration the Noble Earl Mid thought proiier to overlook to the course of his speech. Earl STANHOPE supported the Bill, and re-urged his former forcible and most convincing arguments upon the subject. The Eatls of DARNLEY and LAUDERDALE, the 'alter at great length, opposed the measure. Lord GRENVILLE opposed the. Bill. He com pared the present proceedings of Government Ao those of the French with respect to the assignats.— The Noble Lord dwelt at cdnsiderable length on the evils which the people experienced by the depre ciation of paper, which depreciation he attributed to an over issue on the part of the Bank. Lord LivEßroot. contended that the existing cir cumstances of the country were to be ascribed to natural and simple causes, viz. the great foreign ex penditure, and the considerable increase in the im portation of grain. The 'argument of the Noble Baron who preceded him, was directed rather against the original measure of the suspension of cash pay. merits, than against the present Bill, the object of which was to prevent the occurrence of injustice and oppression. Adverting to the supposition that there were two prices in the market, a cash price and a pia tr price, he denied the fact. On this point he was ready to meet the Noble Lords, guarding h m self at the same time from the inference of maintain ing that there rhight not have been a solitary in stance or two of the existence of two prices. All he contended for was, that it was not a general prac- ice. The Bill was then read a second time, and order ed to be commitied on Friday. - Lord LAUDLRDALE gave notice, that before . the House went into the Committee on Friday, he would move an inquiry into the nature ,of the connection of tire-Bank of England - with Govern- Tent. AMERICAN GOVERNMENT. Lord .HOLLAND, adverting to the conversation which had taken place early in the evening, ob served, that he had since read the documents to which he. had then alluded. If they were accurate as published, he must consider them as affording a most'proper ground for Parliamentary inquiry. It it should appear that Mr. Henry had been autho rised to stir up the inhabitants of .the Eastern States to rebellion and separation from the Western, such an act s on the part of one friendly power to another, could not be too severely censured or stigmatised. And whatever might be the sentiments of the Noble Earl, he was persuaded that he should have . the concurrence in this opinion of the Noble Viscount who had lately acceded to his Majesty's Govern ment, and who had, at the commencement of the present unfortunate war, reprobated what he con ceived-to have been a similar attempt, as instanced in the case of the French Consul at Dublin. He did not wish to take the business out of the hands of the Noble Earl if he chose to bring it forward, but he was desirous to know., whether, it was the Noble Earl's intention himself to lay 'on the table the‘Documents alluded to? Lord LtVERPoOL replied, that he did not think it p;ce.ssary to , say any mute at present, than that when the at air came to be inquired into, it would be tout,6l not to bear the construction :et upon it by the Noble Lord. Lord HOL . LANIi, observing that the. Noble Earl had refrained from answering his question, gave. notice, that on Friday he would move for the pro , duct lon of•the Documents. - Adjourned at One o'Clock this niorning. HOUSE OF COMMONS. TUESDAY, APRIL 28. Mr. DICKENSON presented a Petitien from the Woollen M s anulattorers of the -County of Somer , Set, against the Orders in- Council. Ordered to.-lta on the table. WESTERN' presented a Petition from certain Freeholders and others of the County of E ss ex, praying 'for a Reform in the Representation. Or.' dered to lie on the table. Mr. LITCHFIELD, from the Privy Council, pre , . sented Copies of the Memorials of captaiu King to the Privy Council, and the Reports' of the ha/ Officers of the Crown thereon. Ordered to LW printed. Mr. DICKENSON obtained leave to bring iron -Bill to enable Magistrates to repair Bridges without Grand Jury presentments. The Holt and Woolmer Forest Bills went through Committees, the. Reports of which were ordered to be received to-morrow. The further consideration of the Report of the Securities Bill was posiponedruntil Frichy." The ! I rish Partnerships Bill went through a Corn mittee, the Report of which was ordered to be re- ' ceived to-morrow. • Mr. LUSHINGTON brollght up the Report of the_ Committee of Supply, which was agreed to. Ells were ordered to be brought in, in pursuance of the various. Resolutions. A :copy Of the Charter of the .Corporation of Cursitors was ordered to be laid before the House. On the Motion of -Mr. Rosa, it was ordered that the House should to-morrow resolve itself imo "a Cormitittee, to consider of the duties ou copper imported into Great Britain. Mr. Ross obtained leave to bring in a Bill for the More easy manning of vessels employed in the Southern W•liale fishery. • The Tobacco-pipe. Clay Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be cornmitted to-morrow. On the motion of Mr. Rose, an account was or dered to be laid before the 'House of the real value of goods exported, from 1805 to 181 t, inclu sive ; and an Account of the quantity of tonnage of vessels employed since 1806. The above Accounts were immediately presentod• by the proper Officers. Mr. LITTLETON presented a Petition from 40U Inhabitants of Kidderminster and the neighbour hood, against the Orders in Council, and the Ea.t India Monopoly, He would mot conceal from the House that a Protest bad been also forwarded lo . him,. signed by several respectable iiidivi,4l ils t , at 'though they bore. but a small prOPorrion to (I;e number by which the original p,iitior 'w,l4 sgni-.:(1 . The Petition was ord ere d t o li e o i t the tabfe.- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEEitER gate tlo' lice, than he would to-rnuirow [hove to' ifave.to bring in a Bill to regulate, with a view to repress; the circulation of Local Silver Tokens. A Message from the Lords announced their L.ord• ships' assent to a prodigioqs number of Private Bills. Sit I. NEWPORT gave notice, that on this ddy fortnight he would submit to the House a MOULAI respecting khe management of the Funds for•lnland Navigation in Ireland since the Union. The Committee on the Irish Populaticin Bill was postponed from Friday to Monday. ORDEIts IN COUNCIL. • Lord STANLEY, in rising to in.rke his promised Motion," relative to the various Petitions against the Orders -in Council, apologized for his inadennaey the undertaking, and stated that he should convi der himself presumptuous it he were to trouble the House at any considerable length, after the subject had been so recently and so ably - discussed by an Honourable and Learned Friend of his. He de scribed the-original proceect,ipg of France, in 180.5 (the Berlin and Milan Decree), as a municipal le . gulation, which, however prompted by inveteracy towards the commerce of this country, was by 00 means novel in its nature.; similar measures having been - remitted to by the French in the years tr3g and 1756. The measures, however; of 1739 and 1756 had been comAletely impotent in their effect on British Commerce; and, in his opinion, there, had been no • reason to expect that - the Decree of 1 800 would have had a more extensive operation upon it. At any rate ;Leonid not have affected our : commerce with neutral nations. Our trade with America remained untouched by, it, until the pro -Mulgation of' our own Orders in Council, which occasioned the shutting of - the American ports; and our total exclusion from the means Which, though circuitous, were still advantageous for conveying our produce and manutadures into theCsnitinental States. The distresses that at present existed Country no one could deny, whatever difference of opinion might exist with resped to the cause. The irtitions rhC t4hle sufficiently testified this melancholy fait.• Some of the_ petitioners thought that their distres4 might be relieved by . the abolition of sinecures.. H confessed that he did not look for any important advantage from such a measure.. / Others prayed tor. an extension of commerce to every part 1)1 the East. Indies. Were this to take place, by the destruction of the East Indian monopoly, the bench s could not be operative in h-ss than two years ; and the dis tresses of the country were too pressing to admit of such a delay. Another of the petitions complaine2 of the insensibility which the petitioners declared a Right Honourable Gentleman had shewn to , their grievances. Without attributing any want of feeling to that Right Honourable Gentleman,he must think that, as theconfidential adviser of the first Minister,. and as himself holding suclra responsible ituoiou in the State, the Right Honourable Gentleman ought to be cautious not-to use language calculated by its levity to aggravate serious and real distres s ,. A gieat body of petitioners stated their firm opinion, that the Orders in Council were the chef causes of. tire evils under which - they laboure!. He prekuit.ed t hat it was, by way of .arisWers to these I l st -mentioned ,petitioners, that a late declaration of the British 'Go , vernment had been issued, proceeding on a state ! . tnent of a speech .wade - by a Minister of France to the Consionatire Senate. Tirat declaration contain,