The Sun. — London, England, 1812-04-24 00:00:00

• . t • . • :•et • • • tatii .pastes a r . e A satire of tempb : rni power . an .th 01 his spiritual prerogatives. It liatl been -Si . th a t in the case mairtages they were Str , irei t: , 14 W of the land ; 'hut sopeosing,every lii else a , °e granted, would not -the Catholics compleen shnst that ‘eircuins - tan:.e as an inierteren'ce with eaf religious rights ? It - was itnpossibl- to separate • Piritual from Temporal power even in Pagan Reme, t nd a twin put in possession of the sectets of another e !ne confession of the Catholic'Chnrch, mast have • 1 1 ., / l annence over human condett which would ren cr (thee p ower o f esreat importance; . 84 Jesus Cox El tri , lsi.Et said, lie should not de ':;itiill the House long, nor should lie trounle them -referring to any documents in support of his `e; ; " li °."%s.. He artmithrd thm the Catholics were a Vet they were a great thiuority, and (41111 be attenkhd to by that Utilise. If the ° use Would go into a ComMittee, that , a Pr 4 elitnin-ary -step. In 17g at the instance t,ue Empress of Hestia, the oath was modified, 4 ti rl ° assented to by the Bishops of Leland—that ad lel!!(,)a reeueni : Zed the dominion of the-head of the e i , - ?utio Church in temporal patronage only, and .dealer, the Catholics were content to swear dile race to the King of Great' Britt as the supreme t e ` i d of the Slate. Tt.e Heliometric Baronet here 11PressLII his readiness to give ally Gentleman ae ati't full infurinteionupon the subj et; if the House u uld agree to 111 itheieek for going into Z Com roittee, -- every d.cument was as hand for that pur- With re.peet to what the Right Honourable_ Learned Gentleman had urged as to the Coun rt: of Lateran that Council was called by one of 4 0 si amambitiouspes that ever sat in tne,Papal A lai r ; 'to that Council were invited and assembled t haisad ors from all the Christian countries, So *l.2‘gli Prin ce s at tendedin person ; the proceed ngs d: r e 01 ark uensull length, seventy Canons were r ied; the two first were of doetrines, the rest of i g s , c , i Pittles but they were not to have operation but te Muse States where they would be canonically re k, consequently they were not entitled to much h ei ght. .What was the situation of,France as to at Cutincil, and the Council of Trent ? The pro ire:lngs of these- Councils were not received by nc e, because thev . were hostile to the Civil Govern ei"- - the testimonies of Matthew Pat is li ern - They had ke P l edicttne Monk, and of Platina ; the former had " That there was a great concourse of persons of mhied at the Council : many things were treated was b ut nothing decteed." The object of the Pope t° get money;and money be gut. Pope Gre -14(4Y did not recognise these Canons as legitimate b t : 1 1 ". In later times, of the same opinions w etc 11 , 34 Y enhnent divines, parti,culatly Bishop 'Hay ; c l o t * balance of authority was in disfavour of these speech of theßight Honourable and j t rued Gentleman was more moderate than any #l e had . delivered on former o ccasions, and subse i-e-eritlY given' to the .pt,blic. Upon those he must tli allowed to make some observations. In one of ell q os e speeches, the Right Honourable and Learned oi tirnan, in speaking of the claims of his cotinzy ens had said, " that the *hole of - the Roinantsts „ c Ireland had entered into a conspiracy to overture t h e Government of Ireland." In another part a , e „ Publicati o n, h e Said, " Eveiy Catholic is, by . dt Seiene e a traitor." There was a repetition of et ie opinions in all his speeces, and lie had reason would those opitiions. The Honourable Baronet not impute to the Right Honourable. and E l : earn ed G n to entiema any other „)tite than a regard u : Lis connt r y : but lie was m• st unfortunately at ihsue with the laws, fer did the laws authorise the a , c ceptationot o dh ? H e h a d a l so sa id, " t h a t I ne Catholics could not amalgamate with the Pro ttekstants of the country." He ead-also stated, ~ t hat '"e Priests represented-the Piotestalits as the living, agents of - Satan—as astrays from If .".14iencin here spoke to order, and drilled the as .teril°ll•)—Zhe Honourable B :rotiet resumed, oh 7-'rvine, that if he had not used the! expression, he ,as sorry fur I-aving imputed it to him. but whhin Le last 48 hours_he had purr:lee-lid the book of the i ght Honour:Oak arid Learned Gentleman's writ- L ge at Stockdale's, the publisher, who informed t"al h w Ant horiz :d to. declare, that it was Ile had introduced it not to duo w tt'quY s but tar a better ptirpose—to s!rew that the r lee of exciusive lelvation . , s not cons, t utd by Catholiks to Cite wanner stated -by the Learned Author. , l it so d o i eg he shoul6 not descend to the 1 ';'ulor sr:hoolmer, but woul , i quo'e the authority of 8 i 4r . l } :oies.ser Laroche, and of the highest of "'use authorities, St. Austin himself, who recog hi" no ether means of salvation than in the ninie of Christ aloiie," awl. does not exclude from ; 11 e Pale of t he Cai 'Julie ,Church . 1 hose persons who ha ve net received the light of the Gospel by sedu lous applicatio n . T he Hononrabie Baronet then re 'erred to various letteis ;n " 7 he Morning Post," Under the signature of " A Real - Whig," &c. The L'bst!rvations and arguments in these letter, were re kled by the. known declatatiens of -the See of i ss '"e, namely, with respra to the dispensieg doc trine end the deposing doctrine; they utterly denied asseition—that faith was not to be kept with h eretics. These doctrines had been-guarded against, i nd comp re h en d e d i n t h e arrangements of - ige and 1805 . Hc. then alluded to the correspondence, 4 'hich lie -- maintained frOm authority with the See Di Rome for seven years, in which he introduced the extiuttlion of the order of Jesuits,- once at the head of the English, Irish, and Scotch Colleges; Old oath of allegiance to be taken by the supe riors, each nation having its Cardinal Proieacr.— With respefl to the veto, he would refer to the Noble Viscount then at the head of the Govern tltt'llt, namely, in the reign of terror as it was Called, to bear him . out when he stated, that the Copies which he had - pro,..ured of the opinions of the four Men opoliran Archbishops and the Bishops was correa. They stated their readiness to accept the allowance proposed, and would upon tvery occasion of vacancy in the lieiscopal Chair proceed to the Pleaion of a candi late, w filch candidate should be presented to the Got ernment for its approval. Upon the rejoaion of the Claims in 1808, a synod was held ni.on the subject of the Veto, as proposed by br. Milner ; the result of their deliberation was not only that it was expedient und,r existing circuit). itances, but in a conference which passed • between Dr. O'Reilly, Lord Sutherland, and Sir Eiwaad Bellew, that opinion was confirmed—they reptio bated rip certain priblications, as tending to a:ienate die affeaions of Leland. The Hon. lite:met then read an extra& from a letter in The s.lorniog" Post' )f this day, which c s ouWiled claiLzFs oh a descrip which corkeivcil h:s duty to nOtic . e. in the , House ; it .i-as dot., in . 51.stice iothe feelings and character of tie individuah to Vilioni the letter plied, and the House, when he read it; WArkl sap- preciate the injorwils tendency of the charges. The first charge, atter alluding to various alleged 'colt plaiJits it th • P•otestants, says,' On the other not a syllable is uttered f the intolerant behaviour' of the Catholic Committee, and its satellites, or the least allusion made to their recent publication and extensive circulation of Ward's Errata,' the most ' infamous work ever printed." With respett to this passage, he must exonerate the Cathol c Clergy !tom the charge of givitag countenance to the publication. 11 the Book was a bad one, the publisher was in fault ; for he thought that to re-publish the work, would be benefici el to him ; the (runes of most of the Members of Maynooth College were not in serted with their approbation ; and. Dr. Troy would have useditis interest against the pubiishing of the book, conceiving it an extremely inj , .ed cious work. As to the other charge, which stared, " the present situation of the two Universities is most lamentable, the conduct of the individuals at the head of them in the course of this week, must prove how dan gerous, it is to admit men into high and important °dices, whose principles are so loose, that, for the let therance of party views, the utmost indiffetence is st r ewn by them to the fundamen'tal principles of the. Constitui ion; and a total disregard to the feelings of the individuals they repres, \ nt." Now, the Noble Baron whO presides at the University alluded 'to, couLt not feel more indignation titan he did at this Unjust atack ; bar with, respect to the otherillustri. • outs President, th e extreme delicacy o f the question, and (ha habits of imbibe) , with which he (Sir John) had lived with him, did not lead him to form an opinion as to the nearing of his mind upon the question. But this he knew, that his Royal High- tioss had . taken no-part tit it. .1-le knew also the two Universities were entitled _to exercise their own judment, and if they chose, to . I .itti-ion the House on the earliest opportunily. As to Cambridge, he had ascertained that the Bishop of Brisiol knew nothing of the petition on Sunday ; it was voted on Monday, and on Tu(:sday was sent up express to the Chancellor. The Hon. Baronet then took a reiro.pettive.siiew of the conouel of the Catholics, from the reign of William the Conqueror, upwaid., during which the power of the Papal Throne in England had not been recognized, and concluded with voting for the Committee. Dr. DLI - IGHNAN, in exilanation, deoied some of the ovinion., mitibuted to him. Mr. W. BANKES conceived the question lay in a very. narrow compass. He deprecated the glaring inconsistency, wiecri was generally contended for, of claiming for the Catholics heir natural rights as citizens, at a time when all the ti , ork are iu arms against this country. He wished to know whether this was the proper time for renovating—whether, like subtle alchyinists . , it was proper to iamper ith the- State Ctucible, and mix up ingredients wilier( might eventually explode, to the direct and manl iest injury of the State ? Allustons•had often _been made to the valour of the. British armies, tuff o f t h e brave men who a e the objects of this motion. But would they not bleed ler us to spite of their disqua lifications; Would they not, as became united ci tizens of one empire, continue to win anti wear the laurel which they su eminently were entitled to ? Wizeld they net sill cosopero t in the cause in which they at first embark. ed ? If those %vim supported the claims of tout millions of the subject; of -the Empire thought they were aggrieved, they need only look to their con du:l in the British service, and ten congratulate themseltes that they were not at the ebb of their pbpularity ; that though they were a party tithout power, they .would, if their claims were conceded, be a party with power. In saying this, he di,i not mean thereby to contend, thm, having power, they would abuse it ; bat concessions might be fatally given. It was not from the mass that, danger was to be at prebended ; it was from the solelin invocation of S,ints ; it was not from the pTa6tice of the Romish religion that danger was to be feared; but it was well known that the element lire is " a goad servant, but a bid master," hav ing once the ascendancy, must.be guarded ae°ninst— h it-ing no controui, it was not to be feared. He was uordisposed to retaliate upon the Catholics the sins of their forefathers, but he, was for restricting them. Certain (latrines which they maintained might in then evil tendency hate been exaggerated ; he might • apply the tines of the Poet : Some truth there is, though rnix'd with dust it lies, 'To please the fool, and puzzle all the wise.' At ore period the Catholics were willing to allow the Veto; now they were not. What ! War there a sort of compound interest to be exaCled on the delay in granting them their claims ? He at niboted no improper tnotives to' the Gentlemen opposite. They, no doubt, considered the cause which they had espoused to be the right one ;. but surely it would be unwise in the House, by acceding to the motion, to raise hopes which must ultimately he disappointed. There was far from a distinct un derstanding on the subject among the middle and lower orders in both countries While the English 'peasant dreaded he knew not what unde; the name of Popery, the Irish peasant claimed he knew nut what under the name of Emancipation. Feeling as he did the dangers attendant on the proposed con cessions, he must vote against the motion, unless he were% c‘invinced that mankind were so changed as to tender ad retrospect useless, and all experience rain. L'ild BINNING argued in favour of the motion. A full participation in all the benefits - of the Constitu tion ought, not to be refused to any class of the peo• pie, unless it could be • shewn that the grant was a' tended with danger. Tilt, Catholic Q..iestiote;g3M ed stiength year after year. The mist was falling from the eyes of the people of this country. Pub lic opinion was much divided, and this was 'a suffi cient ground for an inquiry into this very important' salject.• The test laws were not the laws of the land. They were an innovation on the Constitu tion, .called for by the necessity of former times, and lett to posterity to be modified or annulled as circumstinces . might demand. The French revolution, founded on principles of infidelity, had rendered Popety innoxi,us thi9 country.— Ekpenence nvinifested, that Catholics t. 4 ere not adverse to liberty-; for to tt horn did we owe the greater part of our existing riglAs and privileges, bot.to our Catholic ancestois I We had conceded tuu much to the Cat:,ohcs to stop. Were Mr. Pitt jiving., he wo'olo support .- the mot's )n. Mr. Pitt knew iitaman nature better than to Suppose that a Catholic Barrister woulJ be content without being allowed to aspire to the Bench . ) a Catholic without Prinz permitted to indulge the hope -- CI commanding an at my, or a Catholic Gentlemiin with returning his Protestant neigh bour to Parliament Were the principles of the Catholics hostile to the Constitution 3 Why had any of their claims been granted ) Were they not hos tile ? were not all granted ? Either the pre sent. conduct of Parliament was a censure upon site past, or the past was a censure upon the present.— By the relaxation which had already taken place, much improvement had been made both in the cha racter of the people, and on the lace of 'the country. Was not that an encouragement to go on ? Some thought they foresaw great danger to the Protestant faith in granting the Catholics their right . S. He had a . better opinion of the Protestant utith he thought it founded on scripture and reason. If it could not stand against Catholic logic, not all- the exclusive tests that could be devised i.vbuld secure it. He approved of the moeicin, because it plAg,ed the House to nothing but consHeration. He loved the Catholics as countrymen ; he honoured them as' freemen; and he looked forward with confidence to the day when they would be put in complete pos session of heir rights. He besought them, how ever, as they alued'their own interests to continue prod-able and I Tat. If they did so, they would have his hearty players for th e ir success.. Col. LcmoN declared his opinion to be in favour of an inquiry. Mr. OWEN was convinced that if ever there was a finestion ent itled to c a lm discussion, uninfluenced by party feelings, it was the present. Every individual ought to be allowed the free exercise of his religion, without being rendered responsible to any human tribunal. But while we abStained from meddling witn the reliv.ion of others, we were bound.io• policy to maintain our own. fie allowed that theexcln sion o! the Catholics from a full participa . iion of civil rights could be justified only on' the ground of ne cessity ; but maintained, that.that necessity actually existed. Much had been said of strengthening- the Empire. To do this, however, care roust be taken, that, while the Catholics were conciliated, the Prop testants should not be alarmed. The immer;iate ef. fed of concession might be to tranquilize Ireland ; but that calm would be followed by a tempest of the most dreadful violence. The mote was given, the more would be required. The Catholics would aspire still higher, and Ireland would present a mi. serable scene of unrestrained struggle for power be tween the Catholics and the Protesiants, ending in the ruin of both parties. He did- not believe that the greot body of Irish Catholics were interested in this question—he meant the Catholic peasan4ry. Their habits, manners, and rank inlife, formed so many insurmountable obstacles to their obtaining high situations, that the expeaation of doing so could never enter into their minds. In point of tali, they never could reach those - situations. It was only to deceive them to talk to them of their cccu pying s tuations which they were morally incapable of filing. He .thought that it was a peculiarly -uutit tithe for giving additional power to the CatholiCs, when the head of the Catholic Church 'was so com pletely under the controul of France ; and he could . not c-urseet by any ras h a d to en d anger t h at an cient monument of wisdom ind• policy which had. braved so many worms and assaults. The present was a most critical period. At home we were suf feting under the most lie,vy burdens. Abroad we were assailed by a powerful euemy. Such was not the moment for taking a step ol'at least a doubtful tendency. We ought to be in a more tranquil and secure state before we made such an experiment on the Constitution as that now proposed. To accede to the motion, would only be to hold out to the Ca tholics hopes which must be disappointed, and he should therefore oppose it. Mr. VaalloN contended, that the Learned Gen tleman who had just spoken was very much mis taken in his estimate of the moral cap city of the thiddle and lower r lasses of Ili, Irish people . Tha Learned Doctor,. who bad replied to the speech of the Right Honourable Mover of the question, had been very good in explaining the tenets of the Ro man Catholic reli•gion ; but tie out it to the Learned Dolor, whether, if a Roman Catholic Doctor were to explAin the ?Q Articles, he (Dr. Duigenan) would he very willing to receire such art intet isetation'?— He certainly gave the Learned Do&tor great credit .for the bravery with which he stood-the laughter that his own arguments occasioned. He certainly bore admirably the recoil of his own artillery— " He, unconcerted, could hear the mighty crack." It had been recently contended that the senice of the, State suffered but immaterially fmm th e, re maining exclusions o f the Cstl-olic3. But th e het was, that they were excluded from above 500 !Liza! and civil offices ; from above 2000 municipal situa tions, and from all the highest-ranks in the army and navy. The House had recently been saluted with sounds, winch, though. highly gratifying, had for some few years past not been unusu.d. • (The fir ing of the Park and Tower guns hr the. cap ture of Badajoz.) Let the Howse contemplate the Irish or English Officer who fiist mount ed the breach,. and there planted the British flag. Who could deny to siNha t:ra(e man, a su perior commission ? And yet if be should prove to be a Cat:toile, he could rtceive no such re ward for his great valour and services ; although if it- were a Portuguese Officer of the same religion by whom the achievement was performed, no obstacle would prevent his receiving the honours which his zeal and gallantiy had deserVid, Lord Wellington himself wa: an Irishman. It was to the immortal honour of Ireland . that he was so. Superior in dis inieresieduess to the Noble Duke who bad fOr merly held the most distinguished rank in the mi litary annals of Great Britain, he was second to him, not so much in glory as in time. If Lund Welling - ton had been a Cathdlie, he would profit* ha‘e remained in Leland' in the command of -a Com pany. fie would have been employed in taking an illicit still by storm instead of Badajoz. It he had attained a higher rank, and had ventured to this country, he would have been subject to a fine of 5001. and to the forfeiture of his CommisslCM, It had been said, that without the veto there would be no controul over the nomination of the Bishops.— What conttoul was there now If the Catholics were disposed to be disloyal (which there was not the J-tast r'4430/1 to suppose) they might be mucb mot c easily so af preient than if Their chime were granted to The history of the Catholic clew was must interesting: Ot his Majest; he. was un•4•ililng to speak, btu with all the dehcacy and respt_.al due to his misfortunes: aitd his: - virtues. But - cet tautly It was iiroorttinate that the opinion of au in ti+ vidital, who for the last twenty-five years had been sti..)jettt to the occasional visitations o: That c under which it was to be feared 'that he now - permanently laboured, 'should have had Ow weight which it was known to have had on the consideratioti of .the Catholic Question. That" day was past. The time i,vaS arrived to which toe Catholics, however loyally atiiiched' to their Sotre regn, looked tor ward with ii san,:itin6 exrecta , iori of being relieved from the d sabiiiiies of which they • had so long cu oplabi-d. He who'd abstain, be cause he knew he ot.r 4 h -to abstain, from alluding to the opio;ons of the Prince Rogent. Ot the avowed" opinions of his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales be had a tight to speik. The Catholics were most certainly entitled to expect from those opinions, not perhaps thht his Royal Highness would use that personal influence in their favour which his Royal Fattier had used against them, but that at leen his Royal Highness would have given them the; Chance of a fair consideration of their Petit too, which it never could have while the Right Hairoorable Getideinaii• opposite was at the head of - the Ad-. ministraioo. He was as little interested as any man in the overthrow of the present Ministry. —Unquestioliably, no one could •appEuve morc, than he did the conduct t f his two Nuiib Frieluls in the other House, in refusing the off:I - which, at the sUggestiba of the Right Hon. G:-htleman, had been made to _them, and made with the apparent impression, that it Must be rejected. To accept high situations in the State, was no sin ; but to ac cept them tinder the existing clicurnstanees of the Government, would ha,e been on.the part of his Noble Friends, to sin against all consistency and honourable feeling. The opinion, however, of such an humble individual as himself, of their conduct, was little impoi (ant either to them or to the public. But it he had been a person of illustrious bin n, and placed in exalted situation in the State—it the destinies of the ceuntry, had hung out his condutl— if in !800 he had expressed his approbati at of the Trinsal of those Noble Lords to accept.otlice- 7 -lf at the present period, on a 'similar, refusal pm ceeding from those Noble Lords, founded an simi lar reasons ke had wi:hdrawn from them his appro. batiOn—however cett.tio interested individuals night exult in the circumstance (although they; could not hope long to enjoy the fruits of shoul.l not expect that the country at laige would be very solo ! , citous about his Opinion on the C41601;c, of any other subject, Ur I bat they would care w hether or , not be had any opinion at all. Tle R ght Hon. Gentleman opposite had excited himself in every possible direction . to fill up the coesm in Adinnii stration;• Which these circumstances had occasioned. His applications had been ii•tinite. The Rsht • Hun. Gentleman might say with the poet,. "'Urg'd by the storm, at any dour 1 knock." But he could riot congratulate the Right Hon. Gen. tleman on the recruits which he had obtained. 1:110 concession of their rights to the Catholics had been. misrepresented into a proposition, pregnant «till -danger to the Established Church. It . so, he should be the last man to suppoit it., Connected as he wits, by the - most intimate ties of duty and affection to one oldie Dignitinics of that Chureh, he was ne cessarily- conversant with the excellencerof its insti tution=, and might perhaps be accused. of pabiality its its faidur. Whether it might be let med preju , dice or opinion, he knew not ; but certainly lie thought that no church establishment could better fulfil ti,e various Turposekof its formation, nor avoid with more success the maintenance .of trary power on the one hand, and the °au. sion of deniocratic °plutons on the other. It weal therefore that he considered hiatselt entitled to cre dit, when he asserted that nothing would induce, him to support a measure'hy which the saf;ty of•the Protestant establishment might be endangered. But conceiving that the present proposition, while it • was innoxieus•to the Church, gave to the State that power of uniting and consolidating its s7ret...rth,' which the urgency of the times imperiously d e • minded, it sl.oulit live his war in and decided sup port. In fa t, the yvtoposition was the most eau tious and the must prod.:int that could be. submitted to Parliament: For, unless it were cclitended that the consideration of the Ca . hofeClaqns should at no time take pl Cie, t! . .e motion could nor p t o o i ps ; posed, since there could b e no time s o prto that consideration as the present. The monopoly of power might- be opimed" t, the C ithotics its easily as the monopoly of: the East trade" to thu general Me:chaols of the country and lie would not ipsitate to say, that the qnestion - respetting the East India Company's 'Charter, the discusslon of ev hich would, involve the next two months, even if it invotved the loss• of our Asi it c empire, w as r in . imporiant, when set in c . imporison vt ith this tin portant Irish question. Let the House look at the state oh Ireland—thriving in arts, in agriculture, anti (in spite of the Learned Doctor)- i t population--=a population willing to conquer I.r•Elglanst, but-de manding the just rewards of coNjuerors. Where was the danget of concession ? Unlesi it were prov ed —nay, tuore—unless it were proved that the dan ger of concession would 'be greater than the danger of refusal, the Legislature would be no more jO.titi ed in declaring, tttat the liish Catholics should met be freely'admit!ed into all dirt Odic, s of the State,' than they would be j‘stified in decioring, that theariny should notratiltsr . .truln who were six teet , higtt proposition to whi c h h e presunit.d, even th e LAiarn ed Doctor would not assent. Did the Catholics really hold such barbarous doctrines as I hose'imput ed to them by the Learned• Doctor.? did they really maintain that no faith was to he oh:it-iv-A with herc• tics, they ought not to be allowed, ,participation iu any civil right whatever. Bat this Was a most un founded assertion. It was to charge the Catholic;, cot with superstition, but with madness, , to say th.tt admission, to the Constitution would not endear it to thein ; or that exclusion • from it would not render them comparatively indifferent to its sop._ port. Innovation 1 It was the Cathohcs who to complain , of Innovation. I n th e reign' of Wil liam the Toird they were excluded Iwin Parlia ment. In the reign of Ann, they were excluded from civil offices 1., crinsequence. of the ei!ensln t) ut thefts( Acts to Irelimd. /I;lv... fl i ng no ,he P et i t i on against the C.ittiol'c Claims, which 'tad been pre szoted flow y ul Oxford, he obseri ted