The Sun. — London, England, 1837-11-24 00:00:00

r lio n Of the Civil List, unless the Crown was placed in a Vein "! a n to require it. Sir, I shall not trouble the House with 14 t any length into the history of the Civil List. The Us it th e .„ perfectly aware, and every gentleman who has paid kr.'_',l,gfitest attention to the subject must be aware, that the theamer,e,ments relative to the Civil Lisii have been various from • tim e , el gn of George the Second up to the present ere ' that at one period the hereditary revenues H suPl'orted by an additional grant from the 011 e, and the'surplus of that grant, whatever it might be, ti e d ; be L Appropriated to the purposes for which it was i9ten , . 1 1 1 311 t At another period a supplementary grant was given, tu ' r l eti f t o ile event of there being a surplus in the income so se other t . the Sovereign, that surplus was not io be applied o f Ge w o ise than by the direction of Parliament. In the reign th e argrreanlglC:nthe first approach to what I consider a satis factoryent of the Civil List gas made. In that reign eii_,6rovereign surrendered the whole of his hereditary revenues, eceived in exchange from Parliament a settled Civil List; cru_ I‘rtf those revenues consisted of tire casual revenues of the (:)", and o f t h e D uc hi es o f L anca st e r and Cornwall. rested the matter until the reign of William the Fourth , and ste t tttotat period a slight alteration took place in the manage latr, .t the Civil List. By the arrangement made during the reig n , • . rende.. s . o his Majesty surrendered not only what had been stir kid r led by his predecessors, but also the casual revenues, droits, that aa.ibraltar revenues. Now, Sir, I know it was stated at alder time that these revenues did not amount to any very con le ~ able sum, and I think, therefore, that I may be allowed, re 4 4 : B lng, to state to the llouse, that the value of the surrender r .°Y his Majesty William the Fourth, amounted during pub ,?lgn, to a sum of 70,000/., which was paid over to the 0 :: service, and forms part of the revenues of the year.— to „ I ",' hear.) Nor it was not alone in this circumstance ff •4 l 'eh I have adverted that the Civil List of William I.V. i t ch ed from those of his predecessors, but at that time a the greater and more salutary change was introduced, for by arrangement made in the reign of his late Majesty, as r.„.., ro posed to this House by my Noble Friend (Lord Spencer), 4 7 the first time the principle was laid down that iu h e ioi Civii List of the Crown was limited to those matters in the honour and dignity of the Crown was more essen tially concerned— ( Hear, 'hear)—it was told us at the time, ‘ 4 7 it formed one of the arguments against such an arrange abeist, that that change could not be made without consider ei,isconvenience, and some danger to the character and a t e 11 3' of the Crown itself.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") t i,_,was said, an d fi gur es were used on the occasion, ( 7 1 I, to surroun d t h e C rown w i t h a ll th e attributes the administration of justice—and even with those, Sir, r well are attached to your honourable office—was to sur und it tith so many safe-guards and, supports. But led When consider the former state of the Civil List , lam the to believe ;.! et those parties were placed upon it not for pu e r Purpose of givOig a protection to the Crown, but for the th e Pe , se of protection them under the name and character of reieh o t ov t ereinn • that their incomes being in the Civil List oe Sovereign less subject to public observation, arid „ resti ‘o the interference of Parliament. Is there any gentle the here present who is not ready to admit that we approach st settlement of the Civil List of her Majesty under circum- O n ees more favourable. and more satisfactory to her Majesty t - " e lf, and one that must lead to a more satisfactory conclusion, te,eonsider it in its reformed state than as it stood in former t; l e g e s• I know that it will deprive many Hon. Members of a_ e o Pportunity of introducing into the debate a number of Civil observations. I know that on former discussions of the alien List the House used to be taken away from the main et of debate to notice a few accidental and unconnected ar eu'sts; but if we lose anything in the facetiousness of „„: debate, or in the opportunities which it might afford to . t tmhers of displaying arguments and wit, we in much in ad forwarding of that which is our main object- to make an t . equate provision for the Sovereign, which may be propor blesal to the necessities of the case ; at the same time that we , e not extravagant nor regardless of our obligations to the : Do we not, Sir, approach the subject more con veniently, th .7, and have we not a better mode of conducting it to --o reformed state than in the state of anomaly in it used formerly to be presented ?—( Hear.) Nor tuts all; I have to state to Ho nourable Gentlemen, that the Sirenreformed proposition of the last reign was not a dry and • • s i principle, but that it led to good and practical results. th r . I have to befre the House documents which will show . e amount of reduction which has been practically the result rei th e improved mode of regulating the Civil List in the last gu• The account which I hold in my hand is some- What complicated—(Cries of ",,Hear, hear")—but I think bus been Gentlemen will understand that the reductio n been considerable. In the reign of George the Fourth Civil List amounted in the first instance to 1,156,0001., Lsia was afterwards increased to 1,193, 000 /. The Civil t h e in the reign of his late Majesty King William Fourth was 1,095,0001., showing a diminution of ` IV charge upon the public of 100,000/.—( Hear, hear.) el• l, Sir, the greater part of that could not have been sa- L Ctorily accomplished if the whole of those charges had "e'en left on the Civil List. It is true I must add a small It tliount of increase of about 2,000/., but the entire saving to the country is upwards of 97,0001. There is, t herefore, Sir, an actual saving within the interval I have s dverted to in the last reign of very near 10 per cent. on the whole revenue of the country. Now, Sir, this alteration QM been effected, and still the Civil List has been equal to its e xl)enditure, and abundantly sufficient. It has been effective, as the House will recollect, without the creation, ou the part ,„, ;;ois lat e M a j es ty, o f a debt of any sort or kind, or the neces ....4q of res ort i ng to hi s p eo pl e for any extraordinary payments. hoei h n . °,rs.) Sir, the support of the Crown, I therefore say, • whi,,,aa themeoe case and in the other, shows that the principle co nim duction has been made was reconcilable with his ii, ll sense, and led to economy. Notw ithstandin g which the ' a JestY was enabled to carry on h is ex p enditure without 41i con traction of debt of any sort —(Cheers) —and I may be tatt ° a i weel t i Sir, to say in passing, that this result has bee n rkstne by his late Majesty consi sten tly on his part with the enlarged charity—( Cheers) —and consistently with the e t i _ of life o f th e most unbounded hospitality.— (Cheers.) his Majesty was not protected from debt by any narrow 11* —e of life, or by the adoption of any course unworthy the hi-fi station he held in the country, or by denying to his heart out Principles the exercise of the most beneficent charity ; he was protected from debt, because the income which he Was Was allowed from Parliament was adequate, and because it Sir, administ ere d w ith a wise economy.—( Hear and cheers.) `, I have already stated that it is my intention to x :°.Pose in the present instance the adoption of that course ° f moving has b een pursue d on f o rmer occasions, viz., that of 'cl i lll °ving that the whole subject should be referre d to a 'feet Committee ; but before I do so, and as 44 Ppleraentary to the remarks I hare already made, and 42 , e sseatially necessary to enable the House to determine t income they will allo to their oereign, I ish to call heir attention to trio facts— t one is th S e v amount of w the casual revenue which in former reigns were placed at the disposal • the Crown, and the other point is the avowal of Parlia . '"entary i n t er p os iti o n, which, on former occasions w as ne ss c e : ar Y in order to pay the debts o f the Civil Lists, be -use if you Civil compare Lists with Civil L ists, e Must take into account the extraordinary inter p osition of I l Legislature which it became necessary to make. n the reign o f G eorg e 111., the House will learn with s ur- Pi se, that the amount of droits received, and at the dis p osal o f r the Crown, was 12,705,4611.—( Hear)—that was the gross ltr aount ; and it was true that of that enormous sum his Majesty ;tlaropriat e d 900,000 1. to th e Navy, 100,000/. to the Ordnance, th :,000/. to t h e annua l sup pli es o f the year, and 900,000/. to to Consolid a t e d Fund. So that the Sovereign voluntarily it ntribut e d 2 ,600,000 1. towar d s the national necessities. And was also right to say that the expenses of collectio n and pay fie pt to those concerned amounted to 5,000,0001 . But lueting that 5,000,000/. and the 2,600,000/. from the usual ' OO O L, the House will see that an enormous amount of 1,41 revenue was then appropriated to the Cro wn.— ( Hear.) BLACKMORE—That includes the period of the , I, L e neY•—( Cries of Order, order.) T he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—(As we "nd.rstoo Turd .)—Undoubtedly. In the reign of George the th e the farther sum of 400,0 00 /. was received from f se droits. B ut , Si r , t hi s House ought to know , under t ortn e Civil Lists many applications were necessarily made I n tParliament for the payment of debts contracted. I'orh.,.e,reign of Queen Anne two applications were made—one thin '"° ,0 00/., and another for 500,000/.—( Hear. ) the for te en Years of the reinn of George I. application was . made . Ge or ' 00 ; 00 01. In the b thirty-three years of the reig❑ . of the -e si a considerable sum was also granted. During sixt 3 398 ofi Y Years of the reign of George 111. the sum of and e e f - •• was granted for tire discharge of Civil List debts; teeeh,„,, it ,ether sum of 413,000/. from extraordinary fu nds was Si r, the same object, making a total of 3,811,000/. to th e i s scarcely nec essary to call the attention of the H ouse how co ntrast that exists between the state of things I have l ate . Pointed out, and those which existed during the tian e r r ei gn• I say, that of all the difficulties and to be s to the crown—( Hear)—none are so much to st. guarded aga i nst as t hi s —th a t the Civil List should be d e h tx ra sged that there should be no probability of contracting to p_if,nPosing up o n th e Crown the necessity of coming al ot, lrifament for their discharge.—alear.) We ought We t "en, to proceed without great caution as to the steps atu o , r s e shout to take, and we should also take care that the sary"nt to be proposed should not be less than may be neees- Int (Hear, -- hear.) When I state to the House that that is my enti o • ' a bje c t, ,In proposing the Civil List, Ido not do so with the p eel „ of thinking or avoiding any kind of responsibility that pro- Ildel-Tlecuelongs to me. Sir ,1 should feel unworthy of the eon to of this House and of her Majesty, if I was not_prepared tau tst ou on my own responsibility what t I consider the Civil ti 3 as 6lit to be. It will be the object of the Committee ertain whether the proposition I shall make is a just one, 1,, "ether it requires revision. Therefore among the papers of rn i l °se to lay b e f ore th e Committee, will be the scheme th at tho ,... kit List which I shall propose. It will be considered frit ned - ' Queen in some res p e cts stands distinguished from her ono l ate prede cessors o f th e House of Hanover. I believe e ase since the accession of the House of Hanover has there Th ron ao inst ance i n wh i c h t h e S ove reign succeeding to the e on e of England did not inherit very considerable per ,o.; r, th p s r ray from th ose w ho preceded her.—( Hear, hear.) , o,- eas e was the case with respect to William IV., it was the in e With Georg e IV. ; it w as also the case of George 11. ; for leyetit-rone.oCthese cases there was a personal property Con n the from the late So vere inn to the Sovereign who succeeded. ao eei Present instance, her'Majesty succeeded to no such per terserlsri°lll)..e.sty whatsoever. ' Her 'Majesty inherits nothing of a t P°l'evP lier nature. Her Majesty's dependence, consequently,.is hereditary revenues of the present moment, and the '517 0ur. " which it w ill p l ease P ar li ament to decide to be in her 1 °I h er 4But ,' sty are is another distinction also—there is no one t t , Engle th e re d s royal p re d ecessor s who did not succeed also, v enues of Hanover, as well as to the revenues of th„nd. y PubrNoble F r i en d s t a t e d he did not conceive that vt th elreointerests of England would suffer by the severance ' etr a e etl w n of Hanover from the Crown of this country. I Y concur in that opinion,—(Continued cheering.) And I do riot think there is one of her Majesty's subjects on earth—l do not think there is a gentleman here or in Eng land—who will think that the interests of England, either in its foreign or its domestic relations, are likely to be prejudiced by the severance of the Crown of Hanover.—(Cheers.) Btit though that may not be the case, still we must take into account, in the Civil List, that that severance deprives her Majesty of resources which her predecessors had at their command. Another distinction to be made in the settlement of the Civil List is, that her Majesty's establishment as Reign ing Queen must be of a different character from that of a King or of a Queen Consort. It must be an establishment partak ing of the nature of both. It must be partially an establishment of ladies, and also of gentlemen ; therefore, in going through the arrangements I am about to propose, I shall endeavour as far as I can, to enable the House to make comparisons be tween such establishments, and then leave the House to draw from those comparisons thht conclusion which is likely to befit an establishment for her Majesty. The fist class of the Civil List granted to his late Majesty, consisted of the Privy Purse of I I 0,000/.-60,0001. for the use of the King, and 50,0001. for the use of the Queen. I should, therefore, propose that the first class of the present Civil List should stand at 60,0001., excluding the 50,000/. which were voted before for the use of the Queen. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") I do not suppose Gentlemen will consider that that amount of privy purse is the same amount of privy purse which for upwards of 60 years has been appropriated to the use of the Sovereign. The next class of salaries is the class of salaries of the Officers of the Household. It will be in the recollection of the House that on the occasion of the reference of this subject to a Committee up stairs in 1830 an.l 1831, that certain reductions were recommended of the salaries of the great officers of State. 'they did not amount to any very con siderable sum. I believe they amounted to 10,0001. ; but they were considered to be important in point of principle. The Com mittee recommended them to the House ; but after a deliberate discussion, and upon the best view that could be taken of the subject by the Government of the day, it was not consi dered expedient to carry those reductions into effect, and the total suns was voted. Sir, I shall not go back to the arguments that were used on that occasion ; but I think the present affords a fitting opportunity of reconsidering the salaries of those great officers of State.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) I was a member of that Committee, and the recommendations which were then given with respect to the salaries of tha great officers of State were recommendations which at that period met tic ith my assent, although it was not considered expedient to carry them into effect on that occasion. But I have now to announce to the House, that with respect to the reductions in the salaries of the higher officers of State, the Lord Chamberlain, the Master of the Horse, and the Lord Steward, it is my intention to propose a reduction in the amount of those salaries to the full extent which was recommended on that oc- Now I have seen names pointed out, and made matter of re proach to the Pension List. I will take the case in the first instance of a political opponent. It has been made matter of reproach that Lord Farnborough is in the receipt of a pension ; and it is said, what has he done to merit the continuance of a pension ? Why, Sir, the slightest possible attention would have shown that Lord Farnborough has not been in the receipt of that pension for many years post—( Hear) ;—and one single question put to me or to one of my Noble or Hon. Colleagues, would have enabled me to have said that Lord Farnborough, when he came into possess'on of prope...ty which de;olved to him; had given up that pension of his own accord, with a statement that his circum stances had improved, and that he bad felt it due to the public to give up that pension. (Cheers.) I have seen another attack of a similar kind made upon another Noble Lord aqd political opponent, that he has likewise received a patsen. (Hear, hear.) It is perfectly notorious that upoil squiring property that devolved to him by inheritance, he at o.ice gave up his pension.—( Hear, hear, hear.) So much then for two pensioners on the other sido of the II also, anal now {b.. two Mlle Friends of my own. On this side a the House a Noble Friend of my own—now Go vernor-Geheral of India—l have seen it in the public prints within the last g eek asked what the Governor-General of India should continue to receive a pension for? Now, my Noble Friend, instantly upon the receipt of office, gave up the pen sion. Another Noble Friend—Lord Elphinstone, Governor of Madras—the first act he did when he received his appoint mAtt, was instantly to write to say that he gave up his pension. Mr. II u M E.—He must have done so by Act of Parliament. Mr. S. RIC E.—The Hon. Gentleman says he must have done so by Act of Parliament. Well, let us suppose that the lion. Gentleman was right, that would not bear out his'assertion —because the imputation being that those two persons are in receipt of pensions, whether they cease to be in the receipt of those pensions by Act of Parliament or by their own act, the accusation in both cases is false.—( Loud cries of hear, hear.) The object of my argument is to show the delusions that are abroad upon this subject.—( Hear, hear.) I do not know whether the Act of Parliament bears the interpretation or not which the Hon. Gent, puts on it, but this I know, that the resignation of the pension was put into my hands by Lord El phinston the very moment he was appointed to the office he now holds. Now I say those matters in themselves ought to be understood by the House. Again, Sir, particular names are used, and made matters of interest, without any inquiries having been inst:tuted. I will give a very few instances. I have heard questions put, especially with respect to the names of females—for instance, Miss Charlotte Stewart—what has Miss Charlotte Stewart done to deserve a pension ?—( Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, I take that case as an example.—( Hear, hear.) That Lady was the infant daughter of one of the very best public servants who ever served the country either in a civil or military office—l mean the late Col. Stewart, Assistant Secretary to the Treasury.—( Hear, bear.) That gentleman, after going throutzh the whole service of the war, after being wounded and suffering in his health, he applied himself to the Civil Service of his country. lie was ad casion by the Coininittee, up stairs —( Hear, and cheers.) Sir, we have had angry discussions in the House on the sub ject at the time, and I now hear that those gentlemen who then endeavoured to persuade us to carry these reductions into effect will be satisfied with the extent to which we now go. There are some other reductions which we re commend to be made with respect to the lesser officers of State. We do not propose to reduce the amount of their salaries, but their number. We propose to make a reduction of 1,085/. in the salary of the Lord Chamberlain; 4361. in the salary of the Lord Steward ; 850/. in the salary of the Master of the Horse. The office of the Groom of the Stole is to be abolished, which, together with some minor reductions, will make a total of 9,8291.—( Hear, hear.) Sir, I may now be required to inform the House what is the proposed increase of the Establishment necessary for a Lady. In a very few words, I will inform the House what we propose that to be. The Establishment in attendance upon her Majesty, as will be proposed, and wilt be laid before the Committee, will amount to 8,9001.—it will be under 9,000/. The Go vernment, in considering what the Civil List should be for the female Sovereign, have not had recourse to the more immediate precedent to which they had access—l mean that of - Queen Anne. Queen Anne, our last female sovereign, of course had a female esta blishment upon her Civil List, but the salaries charged upon that List were greater than the Government thought proper to suggest for the consideration of the Committee on the present occasion. For instance, the Duchess of Marlborough enjoyed several offices, which in these days would be thought of an incongruous character for a lady. She was Keeper of the Privy Purse, Groom of the Stole—(loud laughter)—and Lady of the Bedchamber. As Privy Purse and Groom of the Stole, she had 2,0001., while the Ladies of the Bedchamber had 1,000/. each—the Women of the Bedchamber being paid 500/. each. Now, Sir, we propose that in place of 2,0001. and 1,0001., the Ladies of the Bedchamber should have 500/. a-year, and the others 300/. —the foundation of the salaries to be upon the same scale as in the household of the Queen Dowager. Now, Sir, I trust the House will sec that we have manifested every desire to put the Royal Establishment upon as satisfactory and econo mical a footing as possible.—( Hear, hear.) The next head of expenditure, Sir, of the Royal Household is that of its servants. There will be laid before the Committee all the particulars requisite to come to a proper understanding upon that subject. The fourth class of expenditure is a very small one—it is for the special servants, and amounts to 23,200/. The next head of expenditure is one to which I expect more opposition. The question of the Pension List forms the subject of the fifth class of the ex penditure on the Civil List. During the late reign a sum of 75,000/. was granted under that head. Sir, I do not anti cipate that with respect to the four first classes of expenditure there will be any real practical difference of opinion in this House, for I well know ,what was said on those first classes on former occasions. But I do know, Sir, upon the subject of the Pension List there will probably be much more opposition.—( Hear, hear, hear.) I do not disguise that from myself, but I wish to deal with the matter fairly. This matter of the Pension List undoubtedly has been much discussed. I shall therefore endeavour to be as brief as possible while bringing under the attention of the House its actual state. Prior to the Act of Mr. Burke, there was no limit whatever to the amount of pensions which might be granted, but the discretion of the Monarch and the amount of the Civil List by itself. Unlimited as it was in amount, it was equally so in point of principle. In the preamble of Mr. Burke's Act, undoubtedly there is reference to limitation both in amount and in principle. I believe 95,0001. was the amount to which it was limited, but the Irish Pension List was for many years subject to no limitation. There existed also a vague and indefinite power of charging the pensions upon the Scotch hereditary revenues, and there was also a power of charging them upon the Four-and- Half per Cents. Sir, in the year 1820 the amount of pensions payable was 203,058/. ; in 1830, this amount was reduced to 160,944/. At the period of the last discussion on the Civil List, my Lord Spencer proposed a limitation in the amount of pensions, allowing them to expire. But previously, by putting a certain class upon the Consolidated Fund, and another upon the Civil List, pensions expiring had been given to the Consolidated Fund, and the Sovereign had the power of filling up vacan cies in respect of those which fell upon the Civil List. Now, Sir, the present amount of pensions is 149,802/., that is to say, there has been a diminution of the amount of pensions, since the last settlement of the Civil List, of a very considerable sum indeed. I think no less than 26,000/. Extending that statement between 1820 and the present time, there has been no less a saving effected than 50,000/., 2nd supposing the law to be continued in its present state, the pen sions, which were in the year 1820, 203,0001., will be reducedby the sum of 75,000/. This, Sir, is not all that was done in the last reign. Undoubtedly during that period, a very great diminution in the amount of Pensions took place.— ( Loud and continued cheering.) But an objection was felt by the House and the country, not only to the amount of the pensions, but the principle on which they were granted. I do not think that it' the House and the public had been perfectly persuaded that the whole amount, even of the larger sum, had been bestowed upon judicious objects, of the Royal bounty and national gratitude, 1 do not believe that the question of amount would have produced half the effect, as the principle upon which those pensions were given. The objection raised to the smaller pensions was repeated over and over again to be en objection to the principle of the whole system of granting those pensions.—( Cheers.) This was felt by the Government of Earl Grey, and on the 18th of February, 1834, a resolution was moved in this House, and passed, " that it is the bounden duty of the responsible advisers of the Crown to recommend to his Majesty for grants of pensions and rewards, only such persona as may have just claims upon the Royal benevolence, either by personal services to the Crown, and who, by the discharge of their duty to the subject— or by useful discoveries in science, or art—merit the greatest consideration of the Sovereign and the patron age of the nation." That was the first time that it had been stated on distinct principles on what grounds pen sions should be granted. Mr. Burke indeed had faintly sha dowed it out, but that was the first time that it had been distinctly stated, by a resolution of the House of Commons. The consequence of that resolution was to shew that it was not so much the amount of the pension as the object to whi c h it was applied. I speak in the . hearing of those who have a pplied themselve s to the consideration of the matter, and who know perfectly well what the extent of public feeling on the subject has been. I refer myself particularly to the Hon. Member for Southwark who . has repeatedly brought the subject before t he House. I submit to him if the enuncia tion of that princip le did not tend to soothe and satisfy the pub lic mind—( Hear) —and if the cause of complaint was not more as regarded that point, than the amount of the pension. I have shown to the H ouse that the principle was so affirmed. Has it been acted upo n ? I say, Sir, that the Committee has a right to know. The H ouse is entitled to know, and the Go ivte.rrTimheent pthoseerde.thcatomrepsaorleuttihoen t,aernesiboonusngdivtoenawctituhptoht.ei names who are l)ro resolution of the House upon the subject,,. and censure us if that that is a fit and proper subject of consideration for we have misapplied that resolution. Sir, I therefore . say the Committee, and they will have the list of those names before them ; and I shall be prepared, with respect . to every one that we h ave re commended to the Crown for pensions, to lay before th e C omm ittee the express grou nds u p on which we have thought it right to do so.—( Hear, hear.) Sir, we shrink from no resPonsibilitv.—(Loud cheering.) We did not adopt that resolution without being disposed to act upon it. We have e n d eavoure d t o do so, and let the Coin mittee investigate what we h ave d one , and let them dete r m ine whether.„ our acts have not k e pt p ace w ith our declarations . Sir, at the same time I must be permitted to say, that with r e, spect to the whole subject of the Pension List, g roat efforts have been made to bring that into disrepute. Matters which have been charged and satisfactorily refuted, have re-appeared — reappeared, I do not say in this House, but elsewhere, for the purpose, of at Irlst calculated to have the effect of at once deluding ,and betraying the . yeblie mind. I d o no t thi n k that this matter has been quite fairly (Welt 4y, f t i s very eas y to sugge st names, and to object to names ;• and it is very easy also, to repeat what IS trae, as appliPa4le atq stt'e of things at the time whea the stataaws4 is made, which is not true, as applica ble to a preceding state of things. vanced not by the Government with which I am con nected, but by other Governments, although he served under us ; and I believe that my Lord Spencer—l believe my Lord Grey-1 believe that every individual member of that Government would give their willing and ready testimony to the unrivalledac tivity, to the indefatigable industry, and to the spotless integrity which distinguished him while in otlice.—( Hear, hear.) Allow me to detain' the attention of the House for a mo ment io this case. This gentleman was entitled to a very high rate of retired allowance. We pressed and urged him to accept the allowance, in order that he might retire for the recovery of his health. He resisted, however, all our entreaties; he said that as long as he was able he would remain in the public service, as he could not bear the idea of receiving the public money without earning it.— ( Loud and continued cheers.) He remained—and I will say of him that never did a public servant reap the reward of his fidelity and industry with more justice than did this Gentleman. Ile had a salary of 2,300/. a-year, and if it is thought by the Hon. Member that lie did not deserve it, I should like to know what test he requires, or in what moaner lie measures t.l.e services of public men ? Looking at the services given to the public by Col. Stewart, I say there never was a more becoming reward than the pension that was given to his daughter. It might be said that we made a vacancy ; if we did, we appointed a most deserving man in the Treasury. We found him there, and we thought he was deserving of what we did for him, and yet 'this is one of the cases, because there is no mode of giving explanation, in consequence of which imputations are cast upon us. I will give the House one other example. I also heard it said that Mr. Morton had a pension of 2001. granted to him the other day. Pray who is Mr. Morton? I will tell the House who he is. There was at one time a very difficult state of the public accounts, in which it was thought that much of the public money had been appropriated to an improper purpose. Mr. Morton, at great risk and considerable inconvenience to himself, devoted no less than two years to the unravelling of those accounts, by which be gave in formation to the Government which enabled them to re cover upwards of 170,000/ , which would have been made away with, but for that unravelling by a defaulter. We had not the means of rewarding this gentleman otherwise. He was in a public office certainly, but we had no means of giving him a retiring pension on account of that office.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Was not a pension in the Royal Pension List well bestowed on this gentle man, who at his own hazard and expellee had secured to the country the sum of 100,0001. ?—( Hear, hear.) This, Sir, is another of the instances which are complained of. Sir, I purpose now to call the attention of the House to the names of some of those persons who appear upon the Pension List, having been eminent in literature and science. I say, Sir, that the way in which the ltt. lion. Bart. opposite and the present Government have acted in this respect is highly creditable to the Government of this country. Airey, Fara day, and Somerville, whose names adorn the literature arid science of the country--it is honourable to any Adminis tration that pensions of the State have been bestowed on such persons. Well, Sir, I should propose that the Committee being appointed, it should have full power of considering whether these resolutions and the principle laid down by the Civil List Committee have been acted upon. But it will be said to me, that does not answer all the objections to it. We look to more —we look to a fuller inquiry—we look to an inquiry as full as that, the notice of which stands upon the Notice Paper. Sir, before I state my opinion with respect Us this point I wish the House to consider a principle which has been laid down, and which has has been the subject of frequent debate in this House. It is a laid down and well considered principle that the Ministers who advise the Crown are responsible for the advice which they give, and therefore if they advise improper pen sions to be put on the Civil List, it becomes within the competency of this Hon. House to express its opinion. That rule and the rules laid down upon the settlement of the last Civil List offers some security undoubtedly ; but they do not, in our opinion, afford an adequate security against the granting of future pensions. You may make your words as stringent as possible, but in order to afford a perfect security, we consider that a few alteratious ought to be made. The first alteration we would propose, Sir, is that the latter part of those resolutions should be embodied in the laws so as to have all the authority of law--( Hear, hear,)_ but even this, in our opinion, will not be enough in itself.— ( Hear, hear.) It is true the Government are to declare when pensions arc granted, but still they may leave the House in the dark.—( Hear, hear.) You may not know that an improper pension has been granted till many years after the fact. In order to avoid that evil, we propose that in future the amount of the Civil List—the amount of pensions granted every year for any particular service—shall be annually laid on the table of the House of Commons.—(Cheers.) would make it obligatory upon the Ministry to give the most immediate information to Parliament, so that if there be any thing wrong dune there may be immediate means of correction if Parliament interpose.—( Hear, hear.) It may be said that then Parliament would become the donor of the pension it grants. Nothing is further from my intentions, for I believe that if Parliament gave these pensions, in place of those responsible to Parliament, the result would be lavish expenditure, cease less intrigues, jobbing, and cabals, exceeding all of which we have ever heard.—( Hear, hear.) I put it only to Gentlemen, without referring to particular cases in the miscellaneous esti mates, whether the) have not, as I have repeatedly, seen something of these ill effects, where the House has come to a vote and repented of it the following day--( Hear, hear)— and I say that nothing could be more injudicious than putting the power of granting pensions into the hands of the House of Commons.—( Hear, hear.) But if the House is not competent to administer it themselves it is valuable as a check to its exercise. Then comes the motion of the Hon. Member for Southwark. As he puts the question I believe it has never yet undergone discussion. Mr. D. W. HARVEY handed a paper to the Right Hon. Gentleman, observing that it contained the terms of his mo tion as lie now proposed to make it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER continued —Before I read the motion of the Hon. and Learned Gentle man, I must say that I do not think the course he pursues will be considered quite a convenient one by the House.— ( Hear, hear.) When I come down prepared to argue on a notice given by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, he hands to me another motion, which is to be substituted for his no tice.—( Hear, hear.) The notice on the book is of a motion for a " Return of all sinecures and pensions, of whatever de nomination, and upon whatever fund chargeable ; Select Com mittee to inquire how far such sinecures and pensions ought to be continued, having due regard to the just claims of the parties, and to economy in the public expenditure." The new proposition is, " And that such Committee"—that is f b theut being Sinecure n pt ehocie pointed r teete e hdbe:o. haus Committeeon:l.ype. ai :fai amount op m e : l:nar w tt, the Committee which I am going to grant—" cause a full ex amination to be made into the circumstances under which each pension was granted, and whether the continuance of the same is justified by any public service."—( Hear, hear.) The effect of the one motion is to cast a new duty on the Committee I am about to move for. This places me in a considerable difficulty. In point of fact it would refer to the Civil List Committee, that which has no reference to it. There are no sinecures on the Civil List, and of the existing ssinecures holders. there areTh The none Hon. which m emdboe not Member fo r London, terminate with who the was e o x n - Learned Gentleman mean that his inquiry should have refe o services--and ready ooh ll pfesa s p: u te.4o p ni: p siiej o noa r citri e)i 111:: into that Does s th them, statementelonn. theirand f a tel l I°q t: d i e ctQ p at e lill nsions for diplomati for Government services? If he t does, my reply is, that the ices _....,11rne dt i D r:l o c : s at iiii h eo e wp m gell ei sp i i i 4o n s Civil List has no concern wtth them • my motion has refe rence to the Civil List, and to that only. The motion of the ini o t n t c . e and i th l i .e a a n rn i e n d q uGentleman subjectsth eni s power of settling the Civil List of the delay as possible,—( Hear,, hear.) I f t o o re e ig ne n ut t n o be i r t, th u is .h C c o n m it refpr poriplitlate4 f un d t o the pulp Committee. The result of adopting the psiabcgmilinttot,4ilFlailatvoioh4;ilneiot THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 24, 1837. Hon. and Learned Gentleman's proposition would be, that there would be an endless delay of the inquiry I propose. I have stated my objections to the Hon. and Learned Gentle man's new motion, and I will now deal with that which is on the book. I hold that any Government that recommends the grant of a pension is responsible for it. I hold that it may be made the matter of fair inquiry. I hold that that inquiry may be en forced is the House of Commons.—(hear.) I hold that the proper time for enforcing such enquiry is the time of the revision of the Civil List. I hold that if there is any thing wrong in .the granting of these pensions we are responsible for their recommendation ;—(Cheers)—and if that responsibility extends to a pe-iod before our time, and anterior to the new settlement of the - Civil List, a due reg ird being had to the just claims of the parties, it is a subject of inquiry to which I cannot offer opposition ; arid lam ready - to say that I will go anew into such an inquiry, saving the just rights of the parties; but under no circumstances would I trench on them. \Vuether the pensions were rightly given or not rightly given, that. is a fit subject for inquiry ; that is an inquiry to which I cannot say no; —( Cheers ) - therefore I am prepa-c d with re sp,ct to that to say, I like the proposition of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, also say it is of that magnitude and importance that the Government are willing, in the face of the House and the public, to assume the responsibility of themselVes moving the Committee and conducting the in quiry—( Cheering)—and I say further, if we do it, we do it strictly on the principles laid down and avowed in the Ho nourable and Learned Gentleman's resolutions, viz., subject to the just claims of the parties. lam not one who, in quest of popularity or for support in this House, or for any purpose of economy, will be a party to a single act of injustice. The rights of the sinecurists ale as well secured to theta by law as the rights of the pensioners. As regards the sinecurists, we granted a full inquiry into the circumstances on which their claims were founded. The Hon. Member for London was in the chair of that Committee ; the rights of the parties were regarded ; no injustice was done ; and I believe no in justice was meditated to any one by any one of the Committee which examined into the facts. The Committee made their report to the Government, who, to the best of their ability, carried the intentions of the Committee into full effect. I am willing, on the part of the Government, now to undertake the fullest inquiry of the nature of that to which I have just adverted.—( Loud cheers.) We will carry it on in accordance with the comprehensive words used by the Honourable and Learned Member himself—we will carry on that inquiry in that spirit, and give to the public the full benefit of (Cheers.) Well, Sir, that is the proposition which I make to the House—( Much cheering )—that is the proposition which we wish to make to the country. We make it in no spirit of oppression against any class of people; we make it with a determination to protect the just claims and rights of all who can establish them ; but after the experience of some years, I feel that the best security for the Pension List itself, the best security for those who are entitled to be on it, is in there being an end to all the mystery and concealment con nected with it.—( Loud and continued cheering.) Would the Ilonourable and Learned Gentleman, after the expla nation that has been given to him, attack the pensions of Miss Charlotte Stewart and Mr. Morton? No such thing.— ( Hear, hear.) I believe that however anxious he i; for economy he would act in accordance with the words of his re solution, and have a due regard to the just claims of the par ties. Ihe only remaining question is. e hether lion. Gentle men think that this inquiry, if it is to be undertaken, ought to be carried on under the direction of a responsible party or of a private Member? If the inquiry were carried on by private Members, it might be said that it was conducted in a vexa tious spirit. To me it appears much less likely that motives would be attributed were the inquiry carried on by the Govern ment. Information will be much more gladly given to respon sible individuals, inasmuch as it cannot be said that it is sought fur party or vexatious purposes. On this ground I trust that the Gentlemen of the House of Commons will receive the pledge now given as satisfactory. One word now as to the time. Undoubtedly I cannot undertake the conduct of these two Committees at the same moment ; but as the work of sim plifying the Civil List cannot be very much protracted, I am ready, as soon as that shall be brought to a conclusion, to un dertake the other. That, I think, is all Hon. Gentlemen can reasonably ask.—( Hear.) I assure the House that the inquiry shall not be carried on in the spirit either of a ran corous inquisition on the one hand, or with any desire to make it a blind on the other ; on the contrary, I engage that it shall be conducted in a good honest spirit. There are two subjects more to which I desire to call the attention of the House. The first a very short one, is in respect to the 41 per cent. duties ; the other respects the revenues of the duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster. Ido not know whether there are any Honourable Gentleman present who took an interest on a former occasion in the latter ques tion. Yes, I perceive there are two. It will be recollected that I begged of them to postpone a mo tion on the subject, observing, that though I could give them no pledge on the subject, it appeared to me that it would be better reserved for such an opportunity as the pre sent than brought forward at the moment of the demise of the Crown. With regard to the sugar-duties, I beg to state that we propose the entire repel of the 41 per cent. duties. I will not now go into the question, because all I wish to commu nicate is that which has relation to the proposed arrangement of the Civil List; at the same time I consider it quite right to state that the motion we shall make with respect to the sugar duties this year will comprehend some alterations in the draw back. On the subject of the duchies I have called attention to the fact that her Majesty ascends the Throne without either the income of Hanover or any perspnal property ; therefore, in limiting the Civil List in the way suggested, we do not propose to the House the surrender of the duchies. We are prepared, however, to give full publicity as to the system teeter which the property is administered. Here, also, much of evil results from the mystery which has heretofore been observed. At present the Duchy of Lancaster is managed under one system, and the Duchy of Cornwall under another. Our intention is to bring the affairs of these Duchies, by an annual report, under the cognizance of Parliament.—( Cheers. ) I trust that arrangement will be deemed satisfactory.— ( Hear, hear, hear.) I thank the House earnestly for the at tention with which they have heard me. I beg them to re collect the predictions which were made as to what would the conduct of the reformed Parliament with respect to the Civil List. It was maintained that the Civil List would test the disposition of the Reformers. We were told that when the Civil List came before the Reformed Parliament, we should never do our duty. We heard it asserted that this was a question with respect to which we should never act fairly. I disbelieved that assertion when it was made, but it will be for this House now to disprove it. It is for this House to settle the Civil List of / their young Sovereign in such a wise, but such a liberal manner, as to avoid the danger of debts being contracted, and the consequent necessity of con stant application to Parliament for money, in the nature of those that were witnessed in the reigns of George 111. and George IV. With these observations, I move that the papers on the table of the House be referred to a Select Committee of twenty-one.—( Ulcers. ) An Hon. MEMBER, whose name we could not learn, said perhaps the Right Hon. Gentleman will answer me one ques tion. I wish to know whether Mr. Thomas Moore is on the Pension-list or not; and if he is, whether his pension has been granted to him for making ballads for love-sick maidens, or for slandering George I V. —( Great laughter. ) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I do think, Sir, that the Honourable Gentleman might have made a further inquiry,, which is, whether the pension to which he refers was given as a reward of great and distinguished talents. Cheers.) I believe that the Honourable Gentleman has the honour of belonging to the same country as myself, and I should have hoped that there was no Irishman, however he might differ from the political opinions of Mr. Thomas Moore, who would not have felt that that gentleman was a credit to the country which gave him birth—(Much cheering)--and that the name of Mr. Thomas Moore was a credit to the Pension List.—( Cheers.) Perhaps the Honourable Member will also ask whether it was for writing his early works, of a very democratic character, th-tt the name of Robert Southey appears on the Pension List ?—( Laughter and cheers.) I believe that both gentlemen received their pensions on the same grounds ; and I rejoice as heartily at the grant to Mr. Robert Southey as Ido at that to Mr. Thomas Moore. They are both individuals of great and distinguished talent ; they have both contributed largely to the literary pleasures of the country—and I rejoice that one and tt.e other, whatever their political opinions, have received from opposite Governments the rewards to which they were so justly entitled.—(Much cheering.) Mr. U. W. HARVEY could not conceal from himself the peculiar difficulty in which be was placed by the obiervations that had been made by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan cellOr of the Exchequer ; because, while on the one hand he should be delighted to accede to any arrangement calculated to effect so desirable an object, he, at the same time, felt that a great personal responsibility rested on himself, in conse (pence of the part he had taken in times past on this interest ing subject. He was apprehensive that in the excessive eager ness of the Government, from a delicate feeling towards their Illustrious Mistress, to pass the Civil List as speedily as possi ble, the object he contemplated might elude his grasp. He could not forget the successive difficulties which gradually ac cumulated on them from the commencement of the last reign. At the outset there was no indisposition on behalf of the Govern ment to admit to the fullest extent that these pensions ought to undergo the most rigorous investigation, and that it was not only the right but the duty of Parliament to institute it. Circumstances, however, occurred, unhappily as he thought, which interrupted these good intentions, and in fact quite bewildered for a time the minds of lion. Members. The House was led captive by promises and by expectations of ad vantages, the value of which was not for a moment to be ha zarded by any inquiry of the kind now proposed, however gra tifying it would have been under other circumstances. The consequence was, that excessive difficulties accumulated, till what was considered as a right became a suspected duty ; and at length, when they claimed the fulfilment of the promises that had been made, they were told that they were endeavour ing to violate an act of Parliament, and even the higher obli gations of honour. It was to guard against a similar difficulty arising, and feeling the obligation imposed on himself to pre vent it, that he now wished for a full understanding on the subject between the Right Hon. Gentleman and himself. He confessed that he did not clearly understand the Right Hon. Gentleman's present proposition. He remember-4 oti former occasion assuring the 4014F10 of tlt.;t WhiPh h p was pvepeie4 tq repeat, namely, tin;t so far from Lein: can nected with any party, or from taking the course he did under party influence at the time he brought forward his motion, he had not spoken to any one to be its seconder. He threw it on the waters of opinion, not doubting it would find a ready support: Ile had pursued the same course to-night ; and yet some lion. Gentlemen might doubt the truth of tliAl statement after the speech of the lei ,ht Hon. gentl,myi ; for he thought they would be justified' itl saying ti be had asked the 'Gentleman to second lais motion —( fa g aii.) It w it s impossible for him to cOrkeeiVe—it was i.opoi I sib'e for any i ngenu ity l ess than that of the Right Hon. Gen tleman himself to furnish—arguments better alapted to show the advantages of his proposition than those urged by the Right Hon. Gentleman in support of his own. But before he proceeded to make any remarks on the main portion of the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, or in support of the amendment which he should move to the House, unless soate arrangement should render it unnecessary, he thought it enter to address himself to a few of the minor topics which formed a part of the Right lion. Gentleman's speech. If tac ceoci.l admissions which the Right Hon. Gentleman had made to night had been thrown out at any popular meeting, composed of active and fretful demagogues heated by itillarnmatory statements—if at such a meeting it had been stated as a fact, speekin' as others did of that strict economy, of that pecu liar exactitude of all the moral observances which characte rised the long reign of George the Third —if it had been said that from one source alone, front some obscure and irre sponsible source, the enormous amount of 12,003.000/. hard been received, he who ventured on such an essertion would have been rebuked fur the vielenee of his opiniens and his shameful di- , regard of tr.se h. It appeared, however, that the 1' 1 ,000,000/. had been in various ways reduced down to 5,000, 0004 ; but still when lie called to utiled what large claims were made on the patriotic feelings and gratitude of the nation for that high example of rigid virtue which they had to contemplate in the arrangement that was distinguished by Royal forbearance—when they found that the enormous sum of five millions of money was thus obtained ; and thus srpandered, no account even being tendered of it, he feared he should have been open to many ungenerous imputations for observations which he might have made. When they were told of the concession her Majesty bad been advised to make, and in speaking of her Mejesty he desired to be understood as speaking of her with the respect which was due to her from her loyal and aireetionate subjects—but when told of those con cessions they must deal with them. as they appeared before them. If the droits of 'the Crown and the Admiralty, and the Four-and-a-Half per Cents., and the other customary duties had been surrendered. some twenty-five years ago, they would have been in a condition to boast some substan tial profit from the surrender.—( Hear.) But there was great cunning in Royalty ; it would never forego any thin; so long as its fangs could cling to it. lie did not well understand the nature of this, great boon they were to receive, and for ,which they were about to give what would seem to be an inadequate exchange. There was a motion complied with last night, which was brought forward by the Hon. Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford, having for its pur pose to show that the Crown was a great loser by the re linquishment of the hereditary revenues. They were, it appeared, actually to have a balance-sheet in illustration of that defalcation. He was quite anxious to see it; it would be quite a curiosity, for it would be the ft, st proof that had been given of Royal liberality. But without spe culating as to the nature of that return, who could say that the House and the people would be in a condition rightly to appreciate it? It was a great pity that the statement was not made when the public might still mere strongly have expressed its sense of the great concessions presented to them. Let them look to it. It was true that the terra • tonal revenues at the disposal of the Crown in past time were abundantly large, not only for the purposes of sustain ing the royal dignity in the most expensive splendour and without restraint, but they also supplied resources sufficient to carry out our armies over the continent of Europe, and to give vigour and triumphs to our fleets over every sea. Whence was it that while all other property had swelled to such enormous amount, the revenue of the Crown had diminished down to the shadow that they now saw it ? Louk at the present amount of it which was under the control of the Woods and Forests. Of what did it consist? That there were considerable estates, ground rents, and numerous manors still under the management of the Board of Woods and Forests was not to be denied. Till lately, however, such was the dexterity of the management of the Board, that the balance-sheet had been adverse to the public interest. But thanks to the vigilance of Parliament, about 40.000/. or 50,000/. per annum was now brought into the account. This, then, was the only solid advantage they derived from that concession for which they were invited to be so sincerely grateful But then they were told of the droits of the Admiralty. If the Government were not unfortunately connected with a Noble Lord eh sse vigorous policy enabled him to steer the vessel of the State through the continually arising difficulties of an expensive peace—if it was not for this it might happen that they would not have to sustain in a period of peace all the expenses without being able to boast any of the glories of a war.—( A laugh.) Were it not for the policy of the Nut.le Lord, the droits of the Ad miralty might swell to a frightful extent ; and then, looking at the anxiety of the public to settle the Civil List, they might have some appeal to their benevolence, calling on them not to take all, reminding them that her Majesty , ought to take a share : in short, that, like the cat and the monkey, they should divide the droits between them.--( A laugh.") Let them look at the concession as it stood. Was the House prepared ? Yes, he saw that a large portion of it was ; but were the 158 young Members amongst them, who were just entering on their Legislative apprenticeship, were they prepared to hear that for yeats past the amount of those droits thus surrendered by the Queen through the elo quent mouth of the Chancellor of the Exchequer—( Laughter) —was 1,2181. ?—(A laugh.) Yes, let it be told to all the Courts of Europe that were studying our example in the course of legisletion, that 1,2181. was the amount of the con ceded droits. Her Majesty bad surrendered to the nation the Four-and-a-half per Cents. What were these Four-and-a half per Cents. ? Some young Members might imagine that her Majesty had surrendered the Four-and-a-half per Cents. in Threadneedle-street.—( Laughter.) That, indeed, would be something to talk about.—(Laughter.) That, indeed, would be something to call forth their gratitude.—( Laughter.) It was, however, no such thing. It was simply this. Some 150 years ago the West India islands had been called upon to raise amongst themselves she means of maintaining their in ternal government in the erection of houses for the adminis tration of justice, and ether appendages of authority. This was proposed to be done by fixing a 4i per cent. tax upon objects of native growth. But in the progress of time it was thought fit that these colonial possessions, which had always been under heavy obligations to the maternal control, should send home from time to time the Four-and-a-half per Cents. It was not to be paid in money ; for these colo nies were too poor to pay in money, and they therefore paid in kind. The consequence was, that where the island produced sugar, if it produced one hundred hogsheads of sugar the Government was to have four and a half hogs heads of sugar ; and where it produced one hundred puncheons of rum they were to have four and a half puncheons of rum. Eventually it turned out that as the islands grew in importance so did their resources magnify and the remittances increase, and eventually it happened that there was something like a surplus. He wished lion. Gentlemen to understand that he was not speaking of a clerical surplus; at present he was con fining his attention to mere matters of revenue.—( Laughter.) There was a surplus, and it might have been expected that it would have been applied to the relief of the Colonies--that there might, for instance, have been a reduction of the exac tion. 'There was a surplus, and the happy thought suggested itself—he wished he could congratulate the present Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the good luck of being its author—but the moment there was a surplus, the happy thought suggested itself of charging the surplus with the pensions and annuities of that superfluous portion of the Aristocracy who were to be found, but not recognised, at home; and the consequence was, that year after year the per Cents. were thus loaded with demands, until at length it turned out that there was an aug,- meatation of demands upon it, with the source from which they might be supplied declining. The claims, he believed, exceeded the remittances. The result of the whole remit tances he believed to be this —he was then speaking front' re collection and was not to be supposed as resting his foundation upon the dry figures of a Chancellor of the Exchequer—he was not to be understood as speaking of the exact total, but of something like the total, and he believed lie was correct in saying that the Four-and-a- Half per Cents. at that hour, and never before then, had amounted to 5,000/. a-year. lie thought he should be very near the tnalk if he said 2,0001. It was then desirable for that House, and still more, it was desirable to the country, it was desirable to the people, the people who cheered her Majesty and her Majesty's Ministers—( Laughter) —it was of the utmost importance that none of their virtues, that none of their merits should be lost to those Ministers ; that, whenever they went forth with her Majesty into the streets and upon the highways, the people should take off their hats, and cheer for those very Ministers who had obtained for them such immense concessions from the Crown at the be ginning of the new reign—( Laughter)—that, too, the people might say of them, " those are the Ministers who, although they have given a Civil List amounting to 510,0004, yet have, by their judicious system of economy, contrived to balance the account by various concessions from the Crown."— ( Laughter.) Having, then, placed the House in possession of the real facts as regarded these matters, he wished to know in what way the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall were to be brought under the cognizance of the House. This point had been dismissed bra very brief manner by the Chancellor of the Exchequer; so briefly, that while he was going into the lobby and returning from it this very important point had been disposed of. This was a very grave matter, and the House would consider—for he was sure they were laud ably inclined to execute this portion of their duty when disposing of the Civil List—he was sure they would- agree with him in thinking that it would be very desirable that time should be given for them to understand the nature of those properties. Were they to let it go forth to the public that the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall were under the cognizance of Parliament, with the notion of deriving advan tage from the concession, when, in reality, there was none ? The Rights Hon. Gentleman had protested against a multi plicity of objects being thrown upon the Committee. Ile (Mr. Harvey) did not know that the properties of the Duchies were to be inquired into by - the Committee. He apprehended not ; for if it were, no justice could be done to the subject. He, on the contrary, considered that a Committee ought to be exclusively appointed for tho purpose of inquiring into the nature, extent, and application of the properties belonging to the duels*, Why he believed the properties to be enortuons io their annual amount. He was ready to admit thet 4e.liad not sufficient information upon the 41.1iect ;0 justify tlte, statement he was about to make, but what 40 aeserted he gathered from the statements of lion. Gentlemen wile had to on part in these matters in by-gone t i me s, He thought he could without exaggeration state the a mount; at all events, it was in the power of the Governsaent to vindicate those resources from any statements sLat. might be erroneous. He believed that the pecreesiies of the duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster, ;,f t`stey eaerltecame the property of a Gentleman of that Wow, and who should be, luckily for itisn- Of, celled to the Viiper House, with the title o f il e k e of Lan caster, alongss*h his proper \Wks titho—if there should ever be any. such peeenn, 4 voight, with the Duchies of Lan -11.5.h-eV and . OcienWall; congratulate himself upon possessing a clear Income of 100,000/. a year. That would not be the amount of his mere rent-roll, but lie believei his dear yearly income. Persons holding leases upon these prof er ties were obliged to pay very large fines upan having their leases renewed. Within his knowledge, there was a gentle. man whose ancestors possessed a large property in Ker.s.ng ton that was held upon a lease for three livet—it so hap pened that for tins property, taken a long tin o Since, 411 those named in the lease spun ote existence until a recent period, when ole of them dropped eiff. The gentleman thought that, according to the good (Ad euetum, hu had Mil, to pay 1,6001. or 1,0001. for putting a new life in the kilo t but, ace:elate to the ecteanny litlwl;rnetl3o, itG Wee told he could not hat c it upon the payment ul the customary fine s bllt must pay for it according to the talue of the property, Th;s tied like the Church Commtsioners in England, and so fee he (kr. II.) bad a regard fur the system. It was, therelbre, deter mined for the gentleman having oho added to that of the two old men, he had to pay 70,000/., and the same stare lies to be paid when the two other old gentlemen walked bli . ; for Laving granted to him a lease of three new lives, so that three juvenile candles nOglit he all burning at the same 240,0001 were required to be paid. Thiene %sere few, he he_ lieved, who had any idea of tho 'extent of the value o f th e Duchv of Cornw a ll. 11 . a asked the lion. Members for Corn wall it they were aware of it—if they did not know that there were as many manors belonging to the Duchy as there were pat fishes ? and although the surface of the county was not re markable for the produce of corn, it was still to be remem bered th it it was very rich in tin..—(Laughter.) The Crown, too, was entitled to 4s. for every hundred weight of tin that was raised. That, he was told, amounted to something be tween 20 0001. and 30,000/. a year. When, then, the Chan cellor of the Exchequer assured them of the fact that 1,200/., the amount of the droits of the Admiralty, were given up, and when he assured them that other droits were also given up (all exceedingly commendable), and at the same time said that the Duchies were to he placed under the con treul of Parliament, he hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman wadi add that the inquire into them would be carried on in such an efficient way, that it would put the country in possession of the character and extent of those properties.— (IL ar.) 113 came now to the more immediate object of his amendment, and in order to obviate the impression which the Chancellor of the Exchequer laboured under, and which he had endeavcu - eed to convey to others, that he (Mr. Harvey ) wished to steal a march ueon him by - the change of his notice, he ahould say a few words. His notice for a Committee had b:en given before any intimaticn on the subject had come from the Right Hon. Gentleman himself, and not until lie had gathered from the Right lien. Gentleman's notice the course that the Government meant to pursue, did he deem it neces sary to alter his notice. B ut if H on . Members wished it, or they had a little time to spare, and as the season was cool, and as there were 153 rew Members to whom the matter might be a tiovelty—( Laughter)—if flou. Gentlemen had not any ob jec; ion, he would move to bring en the motion of which he had given notice, that is, if the Right Hon. Gentleman thought it would be any advantage to him to do so. He now came to the suggestion of the Right lion. Gentleman, with the view of aSeei taibing whether they agreed that night. Unless he was mistaken, they completely differed from each other. At the same time that lie did this, lie begged to i emark that lie was rot sorry that they differed. Ile considered that his object had been secured ; for the Hon. Gentlemen opposite who formed that powerful Conservative party which was now arrayed aglinst the Right Ilon. Gen:lc:man, would not, he was sure, ei.dure the high compliment which the Right Hon. Gentle man had paid to the present Cabinet, when he pattegyrised them for their great moderation and discretion ; he was sure, lie was perfectly satisfied, that all the Hon. Gentlemen would raise their hands against the ingenious insinuation which the Right lion. Gentleman had thus made against them.— ( Laughter.) The moment he heard that he immediately ex claimed that his motion was carried--that the Ministry were in a minority—and, to speck according to the Parliamentary terms of pest times, " they were nut.''-( Cheers and laughter...) What was said be the Right Hon. Gentleman ?—that in 1834 it resolution had besu adopted of not placing upon the Pension List and but persons of high literary pretensions, of distin guished services, or of great virtue—sounds tingling to the ears ; but by this it was meant that they were as much opposed to the scandalous sums expended upon the Pension List as any Hen. Gentlemen could be ; and then they boasted cf where was the man in the House who could say that since they ht Iti the key of the Pension Fund that one sixpence of it had been misapplied in a manner at variance with that resolution.— ( Ilear, hear, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.) They said they defied inquiry.--( Hear, hear, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer)—and then they were for testing the in quiry by Mr. Airey, and Mrs. Somerville, and Mr. Moore._- (Laughter.) There, they said, they are all literary characters, and they declared, too, that they courted the light of the day.—( Hear, hear, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.) They said that persons might run their eye over the whole fourteen or sixteen that they had appointed, and let the terms of that resolution be the test of their purity and in tegrity.—( Bear, from the Chancellor of flit) Exchequer.) This, they said, they did, knowing the vigilance that would be exercised over them, and caring nothing for the Tories, and less for the Radicals.—( Laughter and cheers.) They declared, too, that they were prepared to stand or fall by the spirit of that resolution, which, as a Cabinet, they had acted upon. There was great skill,. but there was also some little artifice in this. Now he (Mr. Harvey) knew nothing about Mr. Airey—(Laughter)—he knew nothing about Mrs. Sower \ Laughter)—he knew nothing about Charlotte Stewart. —(Laughter.) lie thought that all on the Pension List might be as good as them.—( Hear, and laughter.) All he wanted to do was to apply the list of leee to the living list. (11 , :.‘ar, hear.) But then the Right Hon. Gentleman said that great injustice might be don e; an d th en h e t oo k octa -1 siun to allude to Lord Farnborough, who for some solid reason or another had bcuntifully foregone his pension. Some other Lord was also mentioned ; and there was also stated the case of a Mr. Morton, who, for discovering a mis take of 170,000/., was rewarded with a pension of 2501. a year. lie wanted to hove a rigid rule of examination ap- • plied to Lord Farnborough and Miss Stewart ; and if they locked at the term of the amendment, they would see how cautious be had been in this respect.—( Here a considerable delay occurred in looking for Mr. Harvey's resolution, which had been handed up to the Treasury Bench. It was at length stated, amidst much laughter, that it could rot be found.) He felt, lie said, flattered by its not being forthcoming, as it was the first document that he had ever framed that had been taken care of by a Cabinet Minister.—( Laughter.) The object of that amendment was sincerely to apply that test to the Pension List—to do so liberally—nut to examine into each case with stern and iron unkindness—not to look with that rigid inquiry and cold calculation ehich, in modern times, was so much the subject of reproach. This he wished to do from the remotest time ; from the first, which went so far back as 1781, down to the present hour, and to know what could be said in favour of each grant. If, as he believed, that as much could be said of them generally as had been said of those appointed by the Government since 1834, he should not only be content„ but rejoice at the result. Nothing should lead him to make a re mark upon any individual which might induce gentlemen to interpose against an inquiry under the impression that any ungenerous test would be applied—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Upon former occasions, when he had in any way been baffled by a party who assumed to themselves the name, and pretended to be Reformers, he had been compelled, for the purpose of diversifying the subject, to fasten upon some individuals. He had experienced lion inexpedient was such a course. It was very well for the Right Hon. Gentleman to make certain per sons the objects of his laudation ; this was a safe and a very pleasant course to follow, but such was not the case with ono who, on the contrary, felt it to be his duty to make others the object of his censure. Now he thought that all upon the Pen sion List were just as geodes Miss Stewart and Mrs. Somer .ille ; but did the world so think? An ungenerous, a censo rious, a scandal-loving world, was under the impression that upon the Pension List there was many a hoary sinner— ( Laughter and cheers)—that there were still there those whose pretensions were to be found in the secrets of the Ca binet, or of the couch. Many individuals thought this, but he did not think so.—(Laughter.) There were certainly individuals who thought that many had found their way there whose pensions were the price of their political apostacy, or the resignation of their virtue.—(Hear.) After what the Chancellor of the Exchequer had thrown out with respect to the Pension List, it became them—it became those young men—( Lauglitcr)—it became those 158 young men to step forward, and throw the broad shield of their gallantry over those individuals who were made the subject of unjust imputations.—( Laughter.) If they had any young blood stir ring in their veins, they must have the gallantry to come for ward and. aid the ladies that were thus slandered.—(Laugh ter.). Why, he asked, were Mrs. Somerville and Miss Stew art made the express objects of approbation and applause ? why, for the mere purpose of showing up thi Arabellas and the other fine ladies who ought not to have pensions.—(A laugh.) The Right Hon. Gentleman thought that there ought to be inquiry. The present Government had overthrown the last upon this very subject.—( Loud cues of " No, no.") He knew that it was very convenient to say no, but for what he said there was sufficient foundation. When the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Robert Peel) and the Duke of Wel lington, brought forward tilde Civil List in 1830, it was at. tacked upon various grounds, and by some it was said that the whole amount was enormous and outrageous, and above all, the Pension List should be made the subject of rigid in vestigatien, (" Hear, hear, hear," from the Opposition Mernbees.) He should sedulously avoid that which was unacceptable to every kind of audience —the bringing forward speeches which had been made upon former occasions. There was something dry and uninviting in such a course ; but the speeches of eloquent and great men made a lasting impression, and he could not forget that the Right Hon. Member for Dundee, then the Member for the Queen's County (Sir 11. Parnell), had been the mover upon that oc casion. He (Mr. Harvey) had no hesitation in saying that that Right, Ilan. Gentleman had, i n t h e most po i nted manners declared his conviction that the Pension List required a most rigid investigation. That was done—a Committee was ap pointed, and what had been the result ? It was true the course proposed now was different from that then followed ; but the result of the Committee at that time was, that instead of a shilling being saved, there was something like an addition of 10,0001. or 12,000/. Then there came e film over the politi cal eyes, and the Houle was h7raly in a state to see or to judge correctly, II was 1.01( 1 , in Downing-street, and it was "hisPerdt sofrat secret amo ngst the expectants, that if tv,wv,, , were an lequiry into the pensio ns, it would be fatal to the Reforelleg Government. It became, then, a calculation ith Reformers, whether they would consent to the passing of an Act of apparent injustice, or hazard a measure so much desired by the c ountry—whether they would yield what was their sense of duty, to the consideration of a higher and more permanent obligation. It was admitted, then, that it was t h e r i g ht and the duty of that House, at the commencement of every reign to investigate all these charges; but, for the reason he bad stated, the intentions of gentlemen in this re spect were mired. Notwithstanding the successful oppo- I