The Sun. — London, England, 1823-03-04 00:00:00

"West Indies, and a just classification of the qualities of East 1 India sugars: " And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray." Laid on the table. Mr. WIIITMORE then gave notice, that on Wednesday, the 19th inst., he meant to bring the whole subject before the House, upon a motion for an,equalization of the duties upon East and Vest India sugars. Lord A. lIAMIMON presented a petition from George and Alexander Young, complaining of some ill treatment from the Magistrates of Inverness, and intimated his intention of sub mitting the subject of complaint to the House on a subsequent on the said Capital Stock, upon or at any time,after the said sth - day of April, shall cease tobe !ssued, or to be charged upon the said Consolidated Fund. " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that upon the sth day of April, 1823, or as soon after as the same van be. prepared, an account shall be laid before Parliament showing the total amount of the Unredeemed Funded and Outstanding Unfunded Debt in Exchequer Bills, unptorided for, of the United Kingdom, of the said sth day of April ; together with the annual charge attending the same. And there shall from thenceforth be set apart and issued, at the receipt of the Ex chequers of Great Britain and Ireland, out of the said Con ! solidated Fund, to be . placed to the account of the Commis sioners the the Redution of the National Debt, the annual sum of 5,000,0001. to be applied by them towards the Reduc tion of the , National Debt of the United Kingdom, and'which said sum shall be charged upon the said Consolidated Fund, and be issued by equal quarterly payments ; the- first quar terly payment to be charged upon the said Consolidated I. und on the sth day of April, 1823. " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that it is expe dient that so much of the Acts of the 53i1 and' With' years dins late Majesty, relating to the redemption of the National Debt, as require that whenever an amount of capital funded debt of Great Britain and Ireland respectively should have been trans ferred to the said Commissioners, as should be equal to the whole capital, and should produce an interest or yearly divi dend, equal in amount to the whole annual charge, in perpetual annuities of each loan contracted since_l7B6, t4iat a certificate -occasion. The LORD ADVOOIIITE said that the case of the peti tioners was entirely unknown to him ; he would, however, tn. .quire into it; in the mean time he bore testimony to the re. specfability of the Magistrates of Inverness.—The petition was laid on the table. Lord A. HAMILTON gave notice, that he wool& submit a motion respecting Scotch .lurtes on the 424th of March. Colonel I)AVTES said, that as several gentleman took an interest in a petition which he had from Mr. Allen, a Military gentlgratm, he gave notice of his intention of presenting it on WeduesdaY nrxt. - SUPPLY ._DEDUCTION OF THE NATIONAL DEBT. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE. 'QUER the House went:4l . lo a Committee of Supply, to take into its consideration the Acts for the reduction of the Na• • 7 and declaration thereof should be made by the said Commis sioners of the amount of the public debt, to which such certifi cate and declaration should relate, should from time to time be deemed to be wholly satisfied and discharged, and an equal amount of capital stock standing in the names of the said Com missioners, should be considered to be redeemed, and should from time to time be cancelled, be repealed. " That it is the opinion of thii Committee, that no capital , stock, or annuities for terms of years, which after.the sth day of April, 1823, shall be placed in the names of the said Com missioners, in the books of the Bank of England, or of the South Sea Company, or of the Bank of Ireland, sludl be can celled (save and except the stock placed in their names, for the redemption of the said tax) until The interest of the debt, re deemed by the said Commissioners, by the application of the . said sum of 5,000,0001. and of the growing interest thereof, shall, together with the said sum of 5,000,0001., have accumu lated to a sum the annual amount whereof ahall not be less than the one-hundreth part of the then existing un.redeemed funded debt, and outstanding unfunded debt in ,Exchequer Bills, un providedfor, of the United Kingdom taken together ; and that any capital stock, which shall be placed in the names of the said Commissioners on account of the Sinking Fund, or furibar purchase of Life Annuities, after the said Sinking Fund shall amount to the one-hundreth part of the said unredeemed fund ed debt and unfunded debts, taken together as aforesaid, shall be liable to be cancelled at such times, and in such manner as Parliament shall from time to time direct. " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that a new and separate account shall be raised and kept in the books of the Goi , ernor and Company of the Bank of,England, of the sums already . given, by way of donation or,beciliest, towards reducing the national debt, and of all sums which shall hereafter be given or bequeathed for the like purpose, and the interest orl dividends which shall accrue on all stock arising therefrom Khali be applied in the purchase of public annuities composing the national debt, for the purpose of fulfilling the directions of the person or persons giving or bequeathing the same, and to no ofher purpose whatever. " That it is the Opinion of this Committee, that the annual expence of the establishment in Cheat Britain for the reduction of the national debt shall be charged upon the consolidated fund of the United Kingdom of Cheat Britain and Ireland. " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that the expences of the establishments necessary for,carrying into execution An Act of the 48th year of - the reign of his late Majesty, for en abling. the Commissioners of the National Debt to grant Life Annuities, and of two Acts made in the 39th and 54th years of the reign of his said Majesty, for Redemption of the Lund Tax,' shall be charged upon the said Consolidated Fund. " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that it is expe dient that the sacral Acts for the Reduction of the National Debt should be altered and amended." Mr. 14EYCESTER could not concur in the Resolutions.— tionarDebt. The. Order was accordingly read, and the House, having re. solved itself into a Commtttee The CHANCELLOR of 'the EXCHEQUER said, tha as the object of his addressing the Committee was to propose a sexier of Resolutions recommended by the Committee of last year, .he flattered himself they would not meet with any opposition. He nevertheless, thought it better to preface them with a few observations, ex planatory of the view taken by his Majesty's Government of the subject to which they n-e -ferzed. of that subject it was impossible not to see the un importance and the difficulty. It was difficult, principally from the acknowledged fact, that whatever the talents which had at different times been exercised on the subject, whatever the zeal and resolution of those who had examined them, cape. rience had told us that their plans had often met with interrup nion, embarrasetnent, and counter-action. This had induced many persons to infer that it was altogether useless to fbllow up the plan ; but these previous failures afforded, in his mind,. no reason fur not endeavouring to effect the iniportant object.— The argument of those who thought so, would, if generally applied; lead to the paralyzing of the energies of every coon try. .It'veauld apply even to the reduction of taxation ; for if he, when pressed to a reduction of taxation were to say, " Do not ask for the reduction; because there is no doubt a time will come when they will be wanted again," his answer would be deservedly scouted. There was, huwever,one inference which Parliament ought to draw from the past. They would see that if it was difficult, from the known mutability of human affairs to calculate much on the future, it was particularly ne cessary for us to be vigilant in the examination of our income and expenditure, in order that we might secure a surplus, to watds the discharge of debt; to observe a firm, but modetate line of polity ; to avoid in engaging in those conflicts which rendered the getting of such a surplus difficult; at the same time not'fbrgetting, that if aggression required to be repressed, if the national honour rendered a conflict indispensable, it be came the duty of the people to make every sacrifice necessary to the attainment of those important and desirable objects.— (Hear, hear, hear !)---He had before observed, that the plans devised for dvantageously appropriating our surplus revenue, bad become difficult in consequence of' the failure of previous plane on the same subject. To judge, however, properly of those piens', it was necessary that we should consider the eire cumatances attending them ; and he thought a fair review of thou circumstances entitled him to say that be 'need not antici pate.any uneOrmauntable difficulty which would attend the sub ject in ordinary times. The circumstances which almos:, imme diately followed the first idoption e of Mr. Pitt'a plan respecting the Sinking Fund, were of so extraordinary a character, and events followed each other with,such rapidity, and in such dis order, that human calculation was baffled, and it was scarcely possible to form an accurate opinion on the . merits of a plan necessarily affected by those circumstance% and those events. Fur the take of human happiness, lie trusted they would never be witnessed again ; and he hoped that, if we steadily applied ,outtelvee to the obtaining of a surplus revenue, we should not meet any nature interruptions. Ile would, in the first place, examine the state of our debt, on a comparison of the preeent time with that at which it was at its highest. This he did be. thOse whose opinions were unfavourable to the sinking fund had said that they were not to expect any reduction of tuerdwas as to our debt. Since the year ltll6, at which time our debt was at its highest, there . bad been an actual diminution of debt : not great undoubtedly ; hurt it' was an actual diminution ; and must, necessarily, have arisen from a surplus revenue. On the sth of January, 1816,. the whole funded debt was 816,311,9401., and the unfundfd 48,511,3081., making a total of 064,823,328/. The charge for the funded was upwards of thirty millions, and that for the unfonded 2,100,0004 On the sth of January, 1823, the whole funded debt was 796,.530,144/., and the unfunded was 43,528,6211. The charge was, in respect of the funded debt, 211,100,000/; and in respect of the unfunded; 1,162,7624 So' that, on the comparison of the two years he had taken, it would he found there had been a reduction in the funded debt of 19,7 8 1,79 8 /o and in the unfunded of 4,984,725/. ; being a total of 21,7611,5211. This, from the year 1816, gave an average of three millions and a half for each year. This reduction would have been considerably larger but for the mode which had last year been adopted of converting the Navy five per cents. into four per Cents., and which had materially, though beneficially, affected the capital. This difference was so great, that it might be safely taken rue ten millions for the last year. If this were broutflit into the calculation, the diminution would not be less than .15 millions. But if' the charg e were considered, for this was' the most material to be looked at, on a comparison of the same twp-yeers, it would be found that the diminution in the .411101.111 t of charge exceeded three millions. Was it possible, then, for airy man to take the paper he (the Cnaneellor of the Exchequer) held in his hand and say it was hopeless to attempt to reduce the National Debt He thought not; and he trusted this Reuse would' not consider it Unreasonable in him to ask the House to continue a plan which had already vielded sonic ad. vantage. In the hope th at the House would ' receive it favour ably he ahould propose Resolutions, stating in illeitinice that we ought assume the Sinking Fund to start at five millions. It might be, and indeed it Nei keen said, " Vey propose the pare ticular sum of five millions?" Certainly there was no magic in this partieular sum, nor was there any reason for taking that in preference to any other. It was about (ether more perhaps than). the average of the excess of expenditure; and it was in conformity with the reeolution of that •lliaise, passed in the year 1810. The first Resolution would , be for applying these live millions to the Sinking Fund. He proposed that Many portions of the different Acts for regulating the Sinking Fond should he repealed, The Act now in existence made the no. mina) amount of the Sinking Fund about 15 or 10,000,000/.; 'that lie thonght it was perfectly unnecessary to preserve this Machinery.—((Theere.)--He proposed also, that the money should be paid to the Commiseionere quarterly ; that the in. terest should also be received by the Commissioners, and put out to accumulate at compound interest. In this respect he fully -concurred in the opinions of the Hon. Member for Taunton (Air. Baring). Ti would he better, he thought, to let the sum accumulate until it had become somewhat considerabl, rather than remit it in such sums, that the remission would be al. roost imperceptibly felt. This accumulation, he would mug gest, should continue until it should reach an amount N it t a to one per cent. upon the whole amount of the debt. The time at which this might be expected to take place was, of courac uncertain ; but if the revenue continued to improve, and expenditure to diminish, there was a fair prospect that the desired amount would he brought up within a rea sonable time. It would occur to the House that it was in the power of Parliament to improve the plan and avail it of any future opportunity winch might occur the promoting the accumulation. He was not aware diet it was necessary for him to go' into the subject at any greater length. He conceived that he was entitled on all hands, to assume that a Sinking Fund was a wise thing, provided we could Maintain it ; and five mil lions he apprehended war, not an unreasonable sum to corn mence With. Ile was convinced thaothe House, by acquiescing in the Resolutions, would confera service on the country; and enable' it to maintain its high station, in.which, though it Might. have occasionally raised the' envy, had always commanded the adniiration of surrounding' nations.—(lleer, bear !)—The Right [lon. Gentleman concluded by 'moving— ' That it is the opinion of this Conimittec, that the payment of all sums of money which now are charged upon and imitable out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great 'Britain and Ireland, to the Commiselonera for the reduction of the National Debt, should, upon and after the sth day of April, 4023, cease and detertnine. " That it is the opinion of this Continittee; that all Capital Stock and Annuities for terrrre'ne lean (Nave and except the Capital Stock arising 'from donatidtf4 and bequests, towards re ducing the National Debt), which, on the sth day of April, 182 n, shall stand in the natimet of tire Commissioners for the -Reduction of the National - Debt, in the books of the Governor and Company of the Bank of England ; or of the South Sea Company ; or tlie Bank of Ireland, either on account of the .Sinking )'und e h) for the purchase of Life Annuities, should, front and after The sth day of April, 1023, be cancelled in the books of the Old Banks, and South Sea Company, respectively ; etridnhe interest or dividends, which would have been payable He' thought they exhibited the House as callous and calcula ing, when it ought rather to chew a sympathy for the sufferinge of the country. He was of opinion that additional relief ought to be affinded to the agricultural interest. The Sinking Fund he looked upon as a financial folly. It went on the mistaken, principle that the purse of the country was the best treasury of the. State. At all events, whatever they might be in principle, they were inapplicable to the present crisis. He would really ask the country Gentlemen who complained so much of dis tress, whetti.T they were ready to worship the Sinking Fund-- to fall down before it, and treat it as immortal ? The threa tening attitude of France had been alluded to as a reason for maintaloing the Sinking Fund; but this was a temporary cir cumstance, and rather than support the Sinking Fund, he would, if necessary, vote in favour of that sinew of war, the Property'Vax. Mr. ROBERTSON thought the Houie was not ,alive to the true situation of the country. Referring to the Sinking Fund, proposed by Mr. Pitt in 1786, he observed that the, more we paid to the Sinking Fund, the larger the debt be came. '% had borrowed a small sum, and had engaged to pay, in return a large one. Besides, the Sinking Fund was not efficient. Seventy years ago, this country had borrowed money. at 3 per cent. ; but we were now paying for the borrowing of it at 5 per cent. During the last war u e had borrowed on worse terms than ever ; and in support of his assertion, be would refer the House to the years 1013, 1814, and 1817. In the year 1813, we had borrowed 27 millions, and engaged tb return 411. In 1814 we had borrowed 24 mil lions, and engaged to return 32 ; and in 18 15 w& had bar rowed 36 millions, and engaged to return 80.. The funds, on this last -occasion, were at 54 ; and the contractors were allowed a bonus, reducing the amount on each nominal hundred to 51/, till. 4d. Wae it possible to suppose,the credit of Government could be the same, under these circum stances, as it had been in former years ? The only dif ference between these transactions and those of individuals was, that a Government was enabled to proceed with them more extenaively. He had to offer a few remarks on the ob servations made by Hon. Members in the course of Friday last. Allusion had been made to America : America had originally borrowed at seven and eight per cent., but in the course of the last war had authorised the President to borrow at six. A dif. ficulty had occurred in the getting of the loan on these terms, and the President had raised the sum required by an issue of Treastny Bills. France had recently been obliged to borrow , at from eight to ten per cent. Russia had been quoted but such was her regard to faith, that out of a debt of. 43 millions,. site paid interest only on 26. We had Imposed ott the conntry an annual debt of nity.seven millions, which was three times as great as the whole debt of America. By keeping up a Sinking Fund, we were increasing the burdens of the country, though we lowered the rate of the nominal interest. By keeping up no Sinking Fund we lowered the public burthens, but in creased the rate of interest. He was aware that there was dif ficulty in deciding upon the adoption of either of these mea sures ; but, as he thought the low interest preferable, he should at once decide in favour of the Sinking . Ilia Ile had early in the Session given notice of a motion to do away With the paying of nearly twice as much as that which was borrowed.— During the war, with respect to the Sinking Fund, it was iinil ned that we were paying off us fast as we were borrowing. This had now been admitted to be a mistake, and such engage ments as we had made under that mistake oughti not to be ful filled. The lineation ought to be, how much would have been given to the Fundholder, had the borrower been aware of the circumstance? :*Fhe - monied men of the city knew very well how to play their parts ; and our different Chancellors of the Exchequer, from their education and their pursuits, were never a match fur diem. The stock * jobbers and the people were never fairly matched in the making of money bargains. The former were men trained to acute calculation and the indul gence of every selfish passion. lie, of course, did not allude to the Fundholdera generally, He meant the great monied men of the capital who gained by the injury of the country. They haul heard from the Chancellor ,of the Exchequer that we could not go to war but in an extreme case • but if the plin which he should propose were to be a dopt e d, he had no doubt the situa tion of the eountry would be much more advaritageoui. Mr. lIUME said he had heard the statement of the Chan- cellar of the Exchequier with considerable surprise; for it Cer tainly was at variance with some of the documents which had been produced. Thome which he had referred to he trusted the Right Honourable Gentlemen would lay on the table, and cause to be printed. - lie trusted also, thet the Right Honour able Gentleman would agree to go into a Committee similar to that which he (Mr. Hume) had proposed last Session on this subject. The Right Honourable Gentleman had taken the year 1816 for one of his years of comparison ; but it was impossible to judge of that, year ; for the Irish Exchequer was not united to the English until the year 1817. As far as the documents already produced went, the diminution did not exist at all. The amount of capital upon which the Right Hon. Gentleman had laid some stress, was of no consequence. The Rt. Hon. Gentleman had, however, taken the year 1016, and com paring it with the present, had said the amount of expenditure was less in the latter than in the former. But iii the year 1816 the charge was more than it had been in the year preceding, by between two and 3,000,000/. There had, he well'remembered, been a mistake of 2,000,000/. in the casting up, which was fairly admitted by the Treasury, when he applied for an, ex. planation of the account. With regard to the same year of 1816, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer had said there were large arrears due in respect of the preceding year, so that it was altogether unfair to take the year 1816 as a point of corns parison. The year 1817 would have been a iliirer year ; or the of what they would do in countrya oifnthanoseuncasusuesalwshitiuchataioren.likTelhyetroe average of the three preceding, In this way it would be found that the debt was not larger were Gentlemen in that . 1 louse who proposed to do away with and the three following years. arise, and place the _ Ile would ask them sinking fund wait erroneous and delusive. In the year 1718, they would propose to go than it was at present. The whole system, holever, of the the Sinking Fund ; and it e w n as w i i i tt c ie u n n t ib i e t n . t on them to show how and in his opinion, nothing was when Sir ltobert Walpole established a - sinking fund, the in- to suppose, for instance, - that the income should full ate the terest was six per cent.; and it had been in the following amount of four or five millions, opits pinion was founded;. e 5 1 4 caltugether d e es d t t ro o y fo ed u . r, three p a r i i i e d e al s f p , ea an k d in t g hr o ee f i a ti ite h n ad it w w e a l s l s m in o n re o li f ke t l h y e t v o ie h w a s pp u e p n o . n w li l e aci w i o t u h l i d s t observed, "that it did little in time of 'peace, and nothing in would be found that he was correct in stating, that neither: time of war." From the year 1793 to 1817, our revenue had in the metropolis, nor in the great towns, or even villages, been,l,loo millions, and our expenditu re 1,300 millions; be had the price of labour fallen in _proportion to the fall in the meant independent of loans, for which we had added altogether price of provisions. He spoke of the artisans and workmen in six hundred millions to the national debt since the year 1792, the higher branches of the mechanics ; for he did not mean to lie assured the Honourable Member for Taunton (Mr. Baring) assert this of the labourers who ploughed or sowed. This high that if he,would examine the various accounts, he would find rate of wages had been maintained by various causes, and, his (Mr. Hume's) statement to be correct, and his suggestions amongst others, not the least—the combination amongst the to be practicable. When loans were made during the war, the workmen. Taking' the fact, however, without troubling them. Contractors were 'allowed several months to make their pay- selves about the cause, let them look at the consequence. The ments, although they were entitled to their dividends from a labourer could bey the same quantity of bread anti meat which time preceding the actual contract. Thirty or forty millions he enjoyed before the fall of prices, with half what he paid be of the debt had been contracted in this way . in bonuses.— fore, and with the remainder of his money he naturally laid it The whole system of borrowing money •to raise the market out in gin and tobacco, and other exciseable articles. Thus they had been shewn by experience to be erroneous and injurious, had an easy solution of the phenomenon of the flourishing re- Ile considered that 324 millions of 3 per cent. Stock' had been venue. But supposing bread and meat to become double their lost to the country by the fallacious mode of funding which present price next year, they would then have a falling off of had been acted upon by the Government for the last twenty 3or 4 millions in the revenue. lie wished then to know what yearse Now otherwise could - 680 millions have been added to Honourable Gentlemen could do under such circumstances. It our debt when the cash surplus of ex p en di ture overour revenue was ve ry easy and very attractive for Gentlemen to fall in had been under 211 1 ) millions ? It was, in his mind, nonsense to with the. popular side Of this question, and raise a cry for talk of Public Credit requiring that a Sinking Fund should be the reduction of burthens. But he trusted to seeing a re kept up, and that Public Credit could not be maintained with- spectable opposition to such doctrines. He would call upon out applying surplus revenue to the extinction of the debt. these Gentlemen to suppose another emergency also likely in But it was necessary. to have a clear idea of what Public our present situation to arise. He meant the necessity of armed Credit was, fowvery few people agreed upon the meaning of interference in some quarter of the world, whether it came the terms. Public Credit, in his view of it, was no more than from the shores of the Mediterranean or elsewhere. How then ,private credit.—( Hear !)—lf a merchant had been found to pay would they propose to succeed with their Finances cracked in all his• bills as they became due, his credit was good : and the manner required ? There was but one 'of two ways to what more did the public creditor require than that his annuity choose—they must tax the country, or borrow. Now nothing should be paid when it became due: It was of no use to talk could be more fatal to a country than unsteadiness in the sys- Of a period for paying off these creditors ; theirs were an. tem of taxation._(Hear, hear !)--Under a state of uncertainty, nuities in perpetuity ; and if their interest were paid, public whether an article would rise in price this year, or go down the credit was good. It was with this view that he complained next, no trader could know what lie .was about.—( Hear !) of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer's system of running What then was the other way left to be adopted ? He should up the Funds against himself ; of raising the price of undoubtedly say use the Itinditig system—burrow now, and Stocks to die great loss of the public. A high price of then they would be in a state to repay when called upon.--. Stock, lie was convinced, was - very injurious to the country ; But he would pat It to the House, with what face could they and that, es connected with the late Chancellor of the Exches go to borrow money, when the moment they did not want it quer's system, he shogld be able to show. In the year 1317, any more, they.began to cry down the principles of good faith, the revenue amounted to 296 millions—the expenditure to which called upon them to provide for the repayment of it?- 288 millions; - leaving a surplus of exactly 7,268/. instead of When a cry was raised for . " equitable adjustment," but rive asevasehen stated. With this surpl us the Chan- which might more appropriately be styled conrosient adjust '. cellor of the Exchequer ordered the Commissioners of the men/ .- - (Ml eer, hear, hear !)—He (lid not apply these obwe , Sinking Fund to purchase stock to the amount of 13,6911,0001. vations to his lionoerable Friend the Member for Aher stock. This - was done with, only seven millions. In the fol. aeon, for he had always deprecated any breach of public lowing year fourteen millions were invested—the next, nine . faith ; but how did lie mean to uphold public credit with o u t a millions—in 1820 and 1421, four millions were invested—in surplus revenue ? Who did he anticipate should lend their 1822, four millions also were invested. During the whole pe- money, when they boldly proclaimed they never meant to re lied he lied mentioned; .16,276001. had been invested, to do pay ?„-(Hear, hear I)—True it was, they had seen the credulity which 9,700,0001. has been borrowed, the Sinking Fund fur. of the nation led into all sorts of money bubbles of late • and nishing the ether thirty-six millions. If ever, therefore, a lie did not mean to deny that some poor old women of Bath or Sinking Fund appeared' in the light of a palpable delusion, it of Ireland, whose worn-out faculties would not admit of their was here. He eplored any thing which had the effect as this following his Hon. Friend, th e M e mb er f or Ab er d een , i n hi s false system had, of sending our capital away to the assist. calculations, and who, therefore, might be so dull as to think ante of Russia, Prussia, or any of die other Powers of Eu. that no one would ever propose to borrow, who did not mean to rope. It was the boast of tl.ese States, that they made-Eng. repay : such characters might forward their money. It was land pay their subsidies during the' war, and Tenn her capital certainly possible to .find blind itleots enough to lend on such during peace. The whole amount saved in the reduction of security.—(hear, hear, hear!)—Setting; aside the impropriety the Five per Cents., be maintained, was lost by one interest, of promulgating such abominable principles in Parliament, and paid to another! The deduction which had been stated, and proposing a system which could only lead to swindling, to have been made in the public 'debt up to 1822, by the it was very well to talk of the relief such a course might afford, Chancellor of the Exchequer, he was convinced, could but he undertook to say that it was impossible for any man not , fairly be made opt; and it was to show that he to point out a system of Finance for a country, which should wished for a Committee, whidi he hoped would not be be founded on the principle of paying oft' in time of peace refused him, to examine the papers upon which it was what was burrowed in time of' wow—(Heer, hear, hear !) fitunded. How the Right Honourable Gentleman could say if they consented to do away the funding system, they would there was a clear surplus of live millions, when h e admitt e d refuse the aid of what .was a most important and efficacious that be must sell twomillions to establisli it, lie corild not un- engine upon all occasions of difficulty. He was sure the House demand. lie entreated him to look at the transactions of would see the propriety of standing by the general principles 1813 and 1815, when money was borrowed at 531. per hundred, which they had seen had guided his Majesty's Ministers in the anti then show why they were to be called on to make liar. maintenance and application of the Sinking Fund. As it had gains of a different nature when public credit was as good us been shewn that the Sinking Fund was really only three mils ever. If these Resolutions were meant to keep up the Sinking lions instead of five ; and it Way admitted by other Gentlemen Fund at five millions, lie should say that they were incensed- that one or two millions Ought to remain in the nature of a ent with the liberal principles professed by, the Right lion. Sinking Fund, it would be seen that between the two, the re. Gentleman. He had frankly a d m i tte d t h at t h e system o f mend er to be applied to the reduction of taxation was so the Sinking Fund had been a delusion, and yet he gravely small, 'as scarcely to be worth notice. lie would abstain asked them to do the (nune—to borrow with one hand and pay from adverting to the subject of the change of bcted in the with another—to sell one stock to give to the Commissioners value of the currency, farther than to say that the greater part to buy up another. Although he plight wish tosee the Debt re _ of the evils now suffered by the country were attributable duced, he certainly did not wish to see it attempted by. s u c h to it. He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would re-consi. means. The question was, whether five millions Sinking Fund der that part of his Resolutions which treated of the Long or Surplus Revenue were really necessary to keep up public Annuities, and which he thought approitclied to the exploded credit. It appeared that a Sinking Fund of only ten millions system of borrowing with one hand and paying with the other; had enabled them to tin this for many years past—anti this upon if' that were done away with, then lie should say the Finance the confession of the Right Hon. Gentleman. If this then were system of the Government was palpable to the understanding :true, in the present state of the country, he must say they had of every man, woman, and child in the country who could -no right to do any thing with a surplus but remit taxes. They read.—( Hear, hear !) .ought to repeal five millions of taxes, and even then the Chan. Mr. T. WILSON strongly deprecated the system of argu. calor of the Exchequer would have upwards of one million ment followed by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, which h e surplus left out of the portion of the taxes remitted which would would always be ready to expose whether lie met wi t h it i n come into the Exchequer. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer that House or elsewhere. That lion. Member never ceased to h a d not been alloWed to put on three millions of taxes in 1819 chew the folly, and he believed even the iniquity of borrowing the present expenditure would not have been kept up to the in time of war, and paying off ip time of peace.—He thought, present period.--(Hear !).-:_lf the House gave the Govern- instead of that they ought to relieve the agriculturists, and not meat the surpluses they asked for, th e only consequence apply their Surplus Revenue to a Sinki ng Fund, But it wa s would be an extravagant expenditure. As to these surpluses not the landholder, but the monied man l from whom they bor being necessary to keep up public credit, let them look for rowed, and he was convinced that maintaining public faith how many years they had gone on borrowing, when of course would assist the agriculturists, though not so directly as re. there could be no surplus, and yet public credit had been moval of taxes. All the change lie desired to be made in the sustained all the time. Ile should say, then, leave not one Sinking Fund was, hat the Surplus Revenue should be applied shilling in the hands of the Treasury—he would leave no to make an extinction of debt instead of a Sinking Fund. power to issue Exchequer bills to any !amount, to cover the Mr. D. GILBERT hoped the present Chancellor of the Miscalculation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer when die Exchequer would be continued in his office for a long period, quarterly dividends became payable—in short, he would leave and hewas sure he spoke the setiments of the great bulk of the nothing for the. Minister to grasp at, and apply when he country in sayin g so . He spoke thus because he had w i tnesse d pleased, to what purposes he pleased. If they were resolved with so much pleasure what he had already done in his offi ce . they should have a sinking fund, let it be.a real one. But he All that lie wished,to say to him was, that he hoped, should he should say, let there be none, until taxes were:repealed to ever have occasion to make loans, lie would always reserve out that .extent which Would place the depressed interests on a of them a certain per tentage to linen a sinking 'fund. He had leVel with the others—then, if t h ey wou ld, J o ve th em a sink_ the misfortune to belong to that class of agriculturists whose ing fund. He knew that his llono u tabl e Friend, the Member situation at present a ll joined in deploring, and although he for Taunton (111 r.. Baring),' would say, that it' there was no was not so romantic as to look Onward to speedy recovery, lie Sinking Fund, the Minister would have no accumulation of was not so deluded as to think that the remission of one or two money . to make use of in case of emergency. But he begged millions of taxes would have the effect of administering relief to remind his Hon. Friend, that he could not have both. It tantamount to their Ibexes. was impossible to have a Sinking Fund and Fund of the na. Mr. BENNET called uPon the House to consider, that if lure his lion. Friend desired to see exist. With regard to the the vote proposed m to the that night psestd there was an end resources of the country, he was not one of those who took ti of the remission of taxation for this year. He could neither -desponding view ; but he was principally cheered by se e in g agree with the Hon. Member for Taunton (Mr.. Baring), nor that ; under. ll the mismanagement, they were still doing so the honourable Member for Bodmin (Mr. Gilbert), that the well. lie should take the sense of the House upon the q uestion , remission of five millions, or two millions of taxes, would not of the Sinking Fund, in order to determine whether the House he bailed as efficient relief. He would removethe Beer Tax— was content to leave three millions in the hands of the Minister. a tax to oppress the poor, and pauper the rich. If the Surplus Mr. BARING was anxious to offer a few observations , in. Revenue were only 500/. instead of five millions, he would say reference to what had fallen front this lion. Friend, the Mem- apply it in remission of taxes. If they left it as a Sinking her for Aberdeen. lie was most ready to agree with his F in the hands of i the Chancellor of .the Exchequer, they lion. Friend in all lie had said about the fallacy of the Sinking would see him as they had seen his predecessor, put his h an d Fund, as it had been exhibited in mount' by the late Chan- upon it, to make up the deficiencies of his own mismanage cellor of the Exchequer ; but when be came to apply his sign ment ; or, perhaps, to foll ow t h e ot h er half the Hon. Member ments to the abolition of that Fund, he w a s unable to go along fur .Taunton's plan. , with him, How also his lion. Friend meant to establish, that Mr..l. small could not allow his lion. Friend's (Mr. every year that they paid off debt they were going backwards, Bennet's) speech to pass w i t h out one or two observations— he could not conceive. When his lion. Friend applied die word at the same time he begged to say that no one in that House false to the Sinking Fund during the war lie agreed with him; gave his Honourable - Friend mein for the purity of motive butelien he apprehended they could not haye a real one. At which he knew actuated him, more than lie did. The difficulty the eanie time he must observe that shere might be something which the Committee had to contend with, he thought, was to said fur a fictitings Sinking Fund in dine of war. For how. have a clear.notion of what was really meant by public credit. ever useless and invaluable it might appear in the eyes of some This was most essential to their welfare; and, therefore, to ht Gentlemen to take any pains to sustain. public credit now understood. -116'beliered chit good . management was news. that we wonted no money, yet in. time of war that' public nary to public credit, unit that 10 or 12 per cent. had been lost credit was valuable to the country:—(llear,hear!)—lgo much to the public by mm isunagement, The nextehing he considered doubted whether public cre dit'llad not been'better maintains essential to public credit wsei economy. Ile, for one, was ed during the war by borrowing 35 millions when .30 millions as much impressed with the distrees of the agriculturist as his only were wanting, and making a nominal Sinking rund of Hon. Friend.. lie was also a friend-0 the principle of a real the rest, than if that course had 110 t been resorted to, it screed Sinking Fund, and on - the same principle diet he wished to to keep ethic the market—to give currence, to stock, and that relieve the agriculturist, he supported this fund. For, as lie was credit. He would not go so far as to say that this hypo- had shown on a -Conner occasion, the agricultural interest was theek was ntade out to demonstration, but c er t a i n ly i t was that which would seer earliest upon the fuilure of public clearly proved to be otherwise. lie agreed with his Honoura. credit. The Fundi ng System, arid Sinking; Fund had b een the Friend that great los e lied been sustained by the errors i n origin a t e d b y t h ou, find followed by every other state almost the funding system ; but be could riot agree' that it was equal in the world. Not only large, but also small States hud imi eohuesoindr ti t a v much th e to whet: he repre sen t e d it. He also concurred with hitn toted them. And were they then to be the first to abandon ld in hoping that the Chancellor of tl w i e x r c H l .t e guneur awnodup i d ay not i tt a gg t i.iis t s h int e e y fue i pT i l a idt t s l a,i i t l l e ! hi e nl d ifn a nu l r l eN tt o g t an l i t s ers sot oeat t iks o .e: i t in itint ile . ? fall into the same error of borrowing with another. He also joined him in censurin g th e l a t e ch em . any thing done which should have the eff tru eet of sinking ' r e tie calor of the exchequer for representing . the Surplus - to be En 1 greater than it really was. He did not w is h to , say any t hi ng must pernicious effects to the country, and to the landed inte. of that Noble Lord which might militate against the respect lie ,rest especially. thought the House ought pause entertained for his personal character ; but he must Shy that the Mr. II 'lair arid Mr. BARINO mutually explained. .greaten before b w e i t i O te r i e t tiitteppaussbeidieaerreedsoiltourtiointatT Ibilecelinweeenctustotninaeditertniliosenekltssawrsseto. policy be acted upon in that respect was something like the The LORI) MAYOR e h o tt n e t k a ert aP p P o e l a i r eY vulgar vanity v w e u ni . ty o li f e peo eer p t l e e itil to y , n tl i t e n k n e gh t t h i el t their income tleavour to make the Surplus appear five millions, when, in rea- curity through the last thirty years. lity, as his Hon. Friend had distinctly shewn, it was only three Mr. ItICARDO declared it to be,' opinion, that He did wish that the Hight Hon. Gentleman would cultural interest had sun' ed but little ni" ` at the a- - er by the restoration of the do away with that part of the system of his predecessor, and currency. - lay out the money in Long Annuities. But a' question had The Resolution was then agreedeo been raised wilt:titer a surplus at all were of any great moment. Mr. HUME objected to the al teration of time which the Gentlemen took up tide view and raised this question as though accounts would be made up if the pre 1 R ini it were matter which concerned one interest and one class more carried. He wished to know if the . Chancellor sent f tn E were than another —as if the House ought to legislate for one interest mier intended to give up die hu ° • mbug of the two millions con in the State inure than for another; and as if it concerned One fleeted with the halt:pay annuities. - lle need it to be his interest more titan another, that their affairs ehould be soundly purpose to submit to the Committee, an lu n tion ded s managed ! Above all, in hi s opinion, it concerned that class to be inexpedient to maintain a Suakin Fuof an" it which must Stand by the country in all vicissitudes anti all ent. 3,000,0094, and desirable to a ' g n more then ppropriate any surplus revenue ergenckee.—(Hear!)—He really wished that thoee Hon. Alen. over that twin to the remission of taxes. berm who entertained the s e views, would give the House an idea The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was of , ?pinion that no confusion could arise from the period o n .nle: in these Resolutions by making up the aeoenntl• em ' e l, could be annually made up to the sth Janu ar y , as use though in the next year, the first quarter's business must be se ranged on the old systern—thc other three quarters on the new one. With respect to the question asked as to the course 3 tc: be pursued with respect to the Half-pay Annuities, it h a never been contended on that side of the House that lithe An nuities were not sold, the difference between 2,t300, 000 t. on their former amount must be made up , or by borrowing f rala the Sinking Fund. This he had never pretended to tleq• —But if the Annuities should be sold, theretwould mu, be 5 millions applicable to the reduction of de bt without the! issue of Exchequer Bills which in the case he la supposen mi g ht be necessary ;he did not say that it was a matter ot t t's " Course that the plan should succeed ; but he had a s good a righ to sume that it would as he had to assume the general iwrit meat of the revenue. Should it fail, the same effect would r. A produced as if the taxes were to fall short i n an y perticT year. If from a bad harreet, or any other circumstance, ": ticiencv of 2 millions were to occur, it must be made up b e issue of Exchequer Bills; and in such year there co ula be no surplus of 5 millions. But because in a particular case it tinge become necessary to increase the unfunded debt of the counl that was no teason for laying it down as a principle Out a Jab sum should not be se apart for the reduction of a funded;o Mr. RICARDO understood the Right lion. Ge ndemas t he , consider that there would be a manifest difference between (s o plan being successful, as he called it, and unsuccessful. s . him it __pppearetl that in either case the result would l)etr e , name- This plan could not increase our moans, and wis e is rather wished it might prove unsuccessful than other_.., as the Right Hon. Getitlentan would not he able to sell the, nuities but on bad terms, it would be better for the :I a ; that they should not be sold at all. The Plan can ' t relief erect, a debt ! being be created proportionate to the ~, affkempton.tru.edpieitarclderEsucoschinntkledFdtriheadtt'aotcfht,ethhsoooineou•,?cntowguil.d it be slid fat 7 be considered to amount to 3,000,1)0t' ! . ale moved asnoi. amendment on the Resolutions respecting the hi f k fine s 'tr' . ties—" That, in the opinion of this Commatee, , t . 2 , 000 ,0ue diem to maintain a real Sinking Fund of more than . 1, co wer and that it is necessary to afford the people relief hY te ,l taxes to the amount of the remaining surplus reven ue ; ri te Mr. TIERNEY scarcely knew what helves calleefe rt . vote on the present occasion, as at present 2.00 0,1 "1 e . „ ° e e Yet ported Surplus was in a manner lion'' up in thji„""iteetber; this Platt was considered most admirable by the " a "' o f ewe for Bodmin, who had discovered that the remission „lr. would afford no relief to the Agricultural Interest. ale alt ofisoi.nerntidio:d. delnpdwrte.e:uhitienteuchrte Tierney) hail felt very anxious to relieve those conne flora the land from their present burdens, but it should sereeeiti;: the Honourable Gentleman that they had no wish to be eseltieg Ilis own individual interest would lead him to prefer a l , c ele , i Fund, but from most ri art s of the country they had p i ti; 13.40., upon to remit taxes. %Vhen the present measure ! su_l o se it would be impossible to comply with such denuinee:o.eart ever surplus revenue accrued would be claimed for tti , rr of public credit. Fund ought oelyston. ,31r. I). GILBERT remarked the Ilonoureble Melee/JO° Shrewsbury had found out that lie had said the r , , 0 , 4 of taxes would not benefit the agricultural interest. ,I,!,`"bisi his voice was too low for the Right Hon. Gentleman to n_c e ;etr distinctly, but what he had said was that he did not .c: ilu eal the portion of taxation remitted, whi ch affected the S t lf: o l sh ettl. classes, would ;ndemnify them for the lessee thee hau lm. of the The plan brought forward last year by die astute .. , jo, Exchequer had aopearedtu him in some respects deP t s i i l i c tising, would have opposed those pares of it had he 6 ' 153. 04 °. so would have been of any use ; and as it was, he reg having done so. t hat aid' Mr. HUSKISSON reminded the Committee, o f teen • the Taxes now to be remitted, the burthens taken leo !het therople within the last two years amounte d t° 71° uP 111 the 6,U0-000/-, while the Sinking Fund was kel?t. io . 4 t eitt;' amount to which the House had thought it was I . l , t ` ti i. ti n e! .'e" should be raised. With respect to the surplus Wl' ti f never been disputed on that side of the House tn2 the tl looked to the balance sheet the clear surplus e n Jo e • remitted was but 3,000,000/. This had Dever b ec alea The lion. Member for Portarlington had said it wo lio r rt. portauce, whether the annuities were sold or, not- their t with hint that the sale of them would not inc te a 1 1 °,5 g n en e era ini i t t sources, butt it would add to their means of reduen4 twerp had year been stated . ethe House to be this ] , 1 , 4 thtol, sideration of the unexpected burtliens which t his] , „; e itil ° ,,et generation theon which this tl r d , s tt p l :llo , :c :0 1 : ,,,,: t:th iic e h il b at u ure t foorfthtlise plan Sink Sinking carry over a portion of the annuities to th" `,.;: e vcrY "; ba ' . The object mbeutsbtoauegehotietliiiieirge could id la b w e n t o erni iiii i s i a is n oo: l - ,a ; by means of the Sinking Fund, which it ries io ' eine° of the arrangement made with resre; w e igh t °',..-„, le car , era tee ee e. pay Pensions, had been to throw a par t of tbe " -i le . fa s j .° e. • on a remote period , and to rive t he nel i tils ' eel at -1 elle a teen years. tee The Committee divided on Mr. Hume's Arncleleic the numbers were.— ;19 For the Amendment ' - - 110 Against it - - " ...-4 1 'as - - - vett° Majority ,a to i r n u 4 , • When 'strange - • . ' *.°ll°l' 'strangers were re-adivittuu , 1 Mil Mr. • Iti t ' took place on the original resolution, in w i T,ER spool, 0: the CHANCELLOR of the Exetteof•iltitei; a, after Iluswissost, and Mr. Benne°, Pa rt- • te • Resolution was carried. The Po l e, The remaining Resolutions were agreea to.orse"rea to " stunted, and the report of the Comuuttee wa s f 0 satisfaction a n ceived to-morrow. „ con e tee On the motion of Mr. Go nowt the 5 " V L Irish Militia Bill w -I till Fridae- migN. .1,, ,, awpostponet , Tat eve it .11 to , COMBINATIONS OF JOv I n a flt ',roe Mr. P. 5100 RE moved for leave to bring, , e eleote l .,, his va at r itoit:es lA,rosetspercgectlkaoo'utufilnndgsdesnetool‘N.ntch:lieomeic°butvistt!nstihnec°9o':::e.:%.'lltree‘o'fhlici,o‘'i.,'l.: Mr. MA X%V I.'. 1.1, seconded the motion, an d u ne to 04 cl.e, eo' p• , n of th Mr. HUSKISSON said, so little was hn a% w heal° erist. t it required . some consideration to determine II _Oll ~cos ; port it or not. He hoped the lion. Gentletoa e t ,,, ie a 0161 P. .,, 4 should be generally known. 1 , rho l)" , vi. l Mr. Secretary PEEL expressed a shy - 1 , , pill. not to be understood es pledged to suppor t t ''' 41 0 4,- p. I,oog In "elled as possible, and let it stand a vcr l ,..id did not oppose the motion. c b rit k ier n y7. ineke such a change in the laws ,us would be t i: ic h r oe 0! Mr. P. 3ICSORE said, his first object in tl;:eielf to b ra , ten recovering debts, and settling disputes ,Ile t . e w `iij VI these, Journeymen. None, by consenting to th e 'l,", isle, „see in, would be committed to support it i but • 4 ,, to ject would receive that attention which he sho u t Y B e L t i l d igr es an , h t e " ho til p ts ed i t r o tm .p li n t i h p e oi: L e lltsinetcins !:f l;.;la i , i l in , via Leave was given to bring- in the- 13111 ' PRISONS- bring , Mr. W. COURTENAY moved for he st n to . 00 . , 4f 0r ,0 to consolidate and amend the laws relating to ` T tee t et:lsit ` a. Mr. Secretary PEEL said it allbrded tro t h 5 4.1 ,0 t to know that his non. and Learned Frien d " I 4 ..i lueble time to this import a nt subject. 'n O i 'i)o Leave was _given to-bring in the Bill. i con y ,' ase .. At Eaxv E N Mr. lIERRIES brought in a Bill to rePea' De row - to ~J taxes in England. Read a first, and ordered ) time on \l'euluesday, and to be printed._ e t, e eete ----- '' 'i tl_....ssese ' eae . ' ,e o'te_eoex the Ho is • atttotten` .. :. ~, . FOR TIEFTUN• . , . 1) 1. Ma. El.! „ -....m....-._ o►►e of ° New 14- It—Having read in oav fool Newspapers that ci ,ileJ ' . 1 the. Settlers, who .--p , ''' Lond„„ po _ a. --) arrived, after - a months poss'l',' W I (MYos'su;. if that place is on the Spaniii' 00 may qbeito Shore,) the folloWing in f ,. e . col v nected useful to the Settlers and Ill' o 'fe tf with them. In the year 177'ocherli Gentle Men subscribed in order to effect: roll' theyMoutihtad of searching for gold in toed, co the pial.til", which appear io leogileirsl34 ". Some - m from the sea shore extends to a!: 00 0 ' which gold was procured in the - be of tii , e , of t ho i gold was washed from the Piesorft‘ces le: earth l main di)); the rains, but the heavier io t litl7; in the earth. It did not occatih 01' dont. speculatorsby )y the to examine the soil for, iltipie; Spaniards in the ileighl)°' 0 0 0- t ..oinuene_of Grenada, where lumps of Pureti7reorli 0 . 11 (as large as a man's fist) Wow la w fo l u tliti surface • and one lump of yoire,juseitt t') the Museum weighed 70lbs. whioomajrl3,n e of the King of SPAIN r -o►t at 4, V 11 0 ~# ,for ilfti' p ct A Spaniard dares not venture into tb . e cotill",:itO meetquito Indian with. Indians (Indies Bravos) m iner ever) ,i