The Sun. — London, England, 1812-03-10 00:00:00

and his Grace of Norfolk, the question was put, on the proposition for adjourning the debate, and sub sequently on the arn.zndment proposed by the Noble Duke, and both negatived A'ito=iu, a division. "Af ter which the Bill was read a third time, and passed; as was also the Nottingham Watch and Ward Bill. The other Bills' on the table were forwarded, and the House adjourned to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS: bIONDAY, MARCH 9. Sir A. PIGOT gave notice that, he would move to morrow for le:iv- to bring in a Bill respetting Infant Suitors the G.urts of Equity: _ _ _ _ . _ , Mr. M. A. TAYLUR moved, that the Com mittee on Chaucery Suits should have !care to sit, notwithstanding any adjournment of the House, and that the evidence taken before the last Corn :Dian should be refcrred to the 'present.—Agreed to. Mr. WILSON (frf,nl Chelsea Hospital) presented accimnts of the Prize Money, which were ordered to lie on the table. Mt% CROKER postponed the Marine Mutiny Bill, and gave notice that his Right Hun. Friend, the First Lord of the Admiralty, would move in the Committee of Sivi:ply an estimate for breaking wa ter in Plymonth Sound. The Annual Indemnity Bill went through a Com mittee, abd the Report was ordered to be received '. Mr. KENUICK presented a Petition from cer tain Masters in Chancery,. praying for leave to bring in a Bail to enable them to lay out 5001. Ki m:tally in tire purchase of ground contiguous io the Court. . The notice resi etiing the Marriage Adt, was post poned to Wednesday: BANicERS' EMBEZZLEMENT BILL. Mr. Daummo ND moved ;be second reading of the Bankers' Ewbezziement - - - Mr. iVlOrtats expiessed Lis regret that the objec tions he had formerly stated to this Btil were rather strengthened than removed by consideration ; nor did he think it capable of any modification in a Committee, which could re:der it-fit be adopted by the Ho , tse. The great objettion to it w, s, that it operated as an unnecessary t-iJettsioo of the penal code, in order to protect individu3l4 who, by the exercise Of: an orcurnyy degree of circumspection, would iirtatect themselves. It would also lead to greet embareasurteitt in Courts pt Equity, and in many'elses ayi6 - lation of that fundarnent.d maxim, that no person should 'le obliged to criminate him- Self. He could not gtve his consent to make a breach of trust liable to the penal code. Mr. WILSON and Mr. H. SMITH spoke oil the same side. Mr. Daummoom said the existing law was found to be insufficient, and he saw no t.arm which was likely to tujloW !torn permitting the Bill to go into a Committee. The Biil was then read a second time, and order td to be committed ou Friday be'nnight. FRAME WORK BILL On the motion at Mr. Secretary Ryder, the Lords Amenlments to the frame-work Bill were taken into considetalion. The SPEAKER Called the attention of the House to the amendment of the Lords to the clause for punishing those who, having frames broken in their houses, did not inform in t 4 hours. The Commons hid rendered this offence punishable by fine and ,imprisonment, to which the Lids had added the words " or either," thereby altering the penalty. This he behaved was an interference the House was not in the habit of alltming. The amendment was rejected. Mr. W. \VYNNE said, he understood the effeet of tpis Bill had already begun to strew itself in Not tinghamshire, by shutting up gll sources of informa tion, and the opinions of many of the Magistrates were hostile to the measure. Mr. RYDER said, that it many Magistrates disap proved, there were many who aprroved of it. He knew of no sources of information which the Bill could shut up, for it was the peculiar misfortune of this case that there were no sources open. Mr. W. WYkNE said, he did nut allude to such information as could be brought into Courts of Jus tice, but merely so private sources. Mr. J. Salmi siid, it was the general opinion that such sources were 0os:A by the,Bill. Mr. RYDEIL said, no description of information had reached the Government; it was rather Gull to suppose that the Bill could close a door which ivasneveropen. Sir J. NB - %t P . UHT disapproved of sanguinary pe balties• arising out of the passionsof - the tiloment, which he maintained never effetted their Object. ' The 'CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER denied that it was ever represened,. that by making the of fence a felony, the discovery of evidence w6old be facilitated. The prinCiple upon witt, ti the nolsure went, was, that by increasing the penalty, ;lie dis poition to commit the offence would be lessene.l. _ . After some further observations from Mr. C. Adams, a Committee was appointed to prepare a paper containing the . grounds of their disageetnent. Tne Committee having retired for a few minutes, Mv. Ryder brought up the Report, which was agreed to, and Lord Walpole was sent to demand a Conference with the Lords upon the subject. The Committee on the Penitentiary Houses Bill was postponed to Friday next. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The House having resolved itself into a Com mittee, Mr. W. POLE rose to move the Irish Mis cellaneous S erv:ces. In proposing the different grants, he should not trouble the House with any observations, except where there was a difference between the present Estimate and that of last year ; at the same Limo, he should be ready to give every information in. his power to any Gentleman that might require it ; the first resolution he had to pro pose was, for a sum of 30,5291. 9S. 4d. for the Board of Works. It had been the practice formerly to vote annua4ly a sum of 25,0001. for the Board of Works, although the expence almost uniformly ex `seeded that sum. The year before last it amounted to 50,0001. in consequence, the attention of the House was last year called to giant, and he then proposed a larger estimate !ban had been usual, with the view of bringing the vote of Parliament as near as possible to the sum required, promising, at the same time, the Government would direct its attenti“p to this subject ; and he was now happy to be able to state, that a corAsiderable redudiou ia the expence had taken place, as would appear by the resolution which he had prOpostd. He thought it right to itt,!ntion this circumstance in justice to the Board of Works, hosti conduCf was deserving of - the utmost praise—Agreed to. - Mr. POLE said, tiat the next sitrw , he had to, pro- pose was, the usual 10,5001. !or R7iblishing Prochs mations in the Dublin Gazette, and oilier Papers, for one year. It was well known that the sum ex pended for this purpose had always greatly exceeded the grant. He had made' every exertion in his poWei to reduce the exiience, and he was happy to say,. that he had effected a considerable, saving.— Agreed to. • The next Resolution was for 23,7481. gs. 52d. for printing and stationary. Mr. Foie said, that this was rather a larger sum than had !)cen granted last year ; the reason was, that he ivas anxious to give as close a! , esliminu in all cases as powriole, so as not to render it necessary to come upon - the vote of credit for the excess. The sum ptOp -s d was kip, but under this fuead of statiookny was in.ludt-d messengers, coals and candles, for different t..tficel„ &c. Mr. BANKS wished to know what part of the grant was really for sationary. Mr. POLE replied, that the sum of 50001. was granted for stationary. There was also a sum of 5,5001. for printing Gazettes. • Sir J. NEWPORT thought it would be well to di vide the different heads,, instead of including all un der one denomination. The kight Hon. Gentle man had said that part of the sum was to be applied to the printing of- the Gazettes. Why then ere they called upon to vote, in another part of the Es timates, the sum of 10,5001. for that purpose ; He wished also to know the reason of the increase of the present year ; should rash r lace expeLied diminution, ter it had appeared, upon inquiry into that subje;l, that the stationary at Dublin Castle was supplied at a dear rale, and in a manner which ad mitted no cotnpeti;ion. Mr. W. POLE said, the Rig Hon. Birouet mis understood linn; if he supposed him to state that the sum of 10,5601. was for printing the Gazette; it was for inserting Proclamations in the Gizette and oit•er Papers. Tin- King . ; Stationer, in Ireland, was an office held by patehi, and therefore in its na ture adint:tin , f no competition ; out regular ac counts (keit Cei,r; and every , tep consistent with the patent, adopted for the adv-intage of ceconotny. He had himstlt an intention of separating the various points:contained under this head, but had found them so connected as not to admit conveniently of sepa ratioh. There was a small increase ;n this esti mate this year, in consequence of too small a sum having begin taken last year and of some re pairs which had been necessary in the Irish Office in London.—Agreed to. The next Resolution was for 2,5001. for appre hendiii offenders. Mr. Pout said there had been a saving upon this head of 7371. which had gone into the Consolidated„Fund.—Agreed to. Mr. W. POLE t►►en moved the resolution for 25 : 0001._ for criminal prosecutions. Mr HUTCHINSON and Srl J. NEWPORT observ ed, that she sum was much larger than that requir ed in t 798;a year of rebellion ; and objeaed to the that it was an improper anticipation that Ireland would i❑ such a state as to require that such a sum should be appropriated for such a pur pose. Mr. POLE said he did not know what the sum granted in 1798 was, but he knew that ever since the Union the sum now proposed was annually granted. If any Gentleman wish e d to know how the money was expended, he had not- the slightest objection to produce the accounts. If this grant was not nyide, it would be necessary to dip into the vote of credit for the expence of these prosecutionS. The only difference was, that by proposing an an nual grant, the attention of-Parliament. was annually called to the subject ; whereas, if it were paid out of the vote of credit, the. great probability was that it would escape notice. Ir did not follow that the sum granted was the sum-expended. Last year there had been a sa*ing, which bad gone to the Consoli dated Fund; this year the expence was increased, on account of the Spt-cial Commission, and the pro secutions which it had bet-n necessary to institute. He could assure the Committee, that so far were Government front being lavish in the expenditure of the money granted tor t his purpose, that he had re ceived complaints from many parts of Ireland, stat ing that the Government was niggardly in carrying on prosecutions at the public expence. Sir J. NEwPORt slid, that this grant 'placed an the Journals an anticipation of a state of disturbance in Ireland, which would . caa - for the expenditure of so large a sum. This reason alone was sufficient against it. Mr. FITZGERALD defended the grant, and said that Gentlemen seemed to confound the sum - Voted with the sum expended. It appeared that very re cently there had been a suip:us of the grant over the expenditure, and that sorpnis had been paid into the Consolidaied Fund. With respect to the smallness of the expence of the year 1798, he begged to ob serve, that was a yearof great disturbaoCe in Ireland, during a great part of which the✓ Courts of Justice were closed, and therefore the expense of prosecu tion was not so great. After a few words from Mr. BUTCRINSON, the Resolqtiom was weed to. Tire toltowing Resolutions were then agreed to : Pratique Dublin l'ust L. 1,047 to o Treasury Itlcidents . ,4.000 0 0 Lottery Officers . 2,856 o o Board of First Fruits 10,000 o 0 N on-conforming Nlinisters 9,481 9 o Seceding Ministers 3 , 95 1 0 0 Linen Nlanufachue . 21,6u0 0 0 When the last mentioned Resolution was pro posed, S:r Jon NEWPORT wished to know, before this sum was voted, what had become of a debt due to the Board ? and wished the grant was suspended until some information had been obtained on the subject. Mr. POLE said, he understood that the Board were taking steps to recover the debt alltided to, but• bether it had actually been paid or not he did not know. Knowing the high respectability of Noble men and Gentlemen who composed the Linen Board, he had taken it for granted that the proper means bad been adopted for the recovery of the money ; he would, however, malzean inquiry upon the subjea. The Resolution was then agreed to. Mr. W. Pot..s then moved, that a sum of sgool. be granted for draining bogs in Ireland ; the sum grant. edlast year for this purpose was 12,0001. which, with what read been previously gra n ted, an d w h at was now pooposed, made altogether about 29,000% A detailed , account of the proceedings of these-Com missioners, was before the House, from w hi. ! h it appeared that a very large portion of the bogs of Ireland 'had already been surveyed. It was now proposv:l that they should extend their surveys into Connakuara, on the Western side of Ireland, for WhiCtl, purpose it was: necessary that the Commis sionv.rs should be continued another year, when they would finish their labour s . The Committee, .he was sure, must be aware of the very great im prirtance of the objet for which :his sum was now claimed, and he hoped that it would be the last that Parliament would be called upon to grant. Sir JOHN NEWPORT exrizssed •a hope, lila!, in future, before grants of this kind were made, the House might have an opportunity of determining on their utility, and not be led on ) step by- step, itt considerable disbursements for inconsiderable ob. je ts. In his opinion, the survey of all Ireland mi k ;ht have been effected for one. third of.the sum voted for this purpose. Besides, a very large pro portion of those bogs, for the survey of wh ch the public paid, belonged to Noblemen and Gentle men, who were very able to have them surveyed, without increasing the public, burthens. The i:lea originlily stated, when this plan was ushered in, was, that a sufficient quataity of_ hemp would be raised to render us iniependent of any suppli, s from the Baltic ; but, from what he now saw, the st.liem e appeared nicely to promote no one useful o!.jea - Nit' W. FITZGBRALD regretted that the Right t (..ientkman (Mr. Ewer) who first _pro pu‘ed the plan, was not in lets place to vindicate himself from the charges of the Right Honourable Earonet. it was impossible, trom the nature of the undertaking, that the expence would be fully a-cei tamed, at the outset. He considered it as a complete geOlogical survey, embracing t7-20ths,of all the bogs in Ireland, and was far from beivz so fruitless as described by the Right Honourable Baronet. The Resolution was then agreed to, as were We following : Harbour of Flowth k, 3 2,000 Dublin Society to,ooo Farming Society 5,000 Cork Institution • . • , 2,50 ct On movsng she next Resolutiort, to That the sum of 41;5391. - be granted for the Protestant Charter. Schools in Ireland." Mr. W. POLE said, there was an augmentation of 25001. in this - grant this year, which arf.se partly from the expellee which had been incurred in the repairs of the schools, and partly from the in crease in the price of prOvisions. Sir JoliN NEWPORT wished to know, why there should be a still further increase on the increase of 10,0001. in the last year ? Mr. W. POLE said, that the Board of Education had made an elaborate report upon the state of these schools, from which it appeared,,that in consequence of the increased price of provisions, it had been found necessary to allow one halfpenny per day in addi tion for the board of each of the children main:ant ed in these schools, amounting to 2400. These schools, he was sorry to say, had not been kept up in g proper way, but now they were very much im proved, and the greatest attention was paid to them. He could undertake to say, that in no one instance was there greater atipution paid to the expenditure of public money, than in that of the Protestant Charter Schools. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that the Right Hon. Gentleman had not explain,d to his satisfaction the cause of the increase this year, over and above the increase of iO,OOOl. last year ; the repairs of the buildings only amounted to 50001. Mr. P. MOORE wished to know whether there was any check on the expenditure of the money granted ? Mr. W. POLE said, that these accounts all went went before the Auditors of Public Accounts, by whom they were scrupulously examined, and these auditors had praised in the strongest terms the mode adopted with respet to the conduct of these schools. With regard to the increase which the Right Hon. Baronet said had taken place in the vote of last year, he was not prepared to state how it arose, as he had not proposed the gr.ini. If, however, the Protestant Charter Schools in Ireland were to be kept up, it appeared to him to be sufficient to lay before the Committee as accurate and as close an estimate of the necessary expense as could be prepared. If Gentlemen thought that any part of the estimate was objeaionable, let them poiot it out, and he was .ready to answer them, and to give the fullest ex planation. Sir 'JOHN NEWPORT maintained, that he had a right to demand, irom any Minister, a full expla nation, as to the votes of the public money ; nor would 20 close estimates solve the question he bad put, and. to which he had a right to expe6t an answer, without the ,imputation of cavil, which now seemed to be the cust om t o impute to anv Gen tleman who wished• for information on the disposal of the annual grants.... Mr. W. - PpLR said, that the Committee would judge whether he had not shewn a disposition to satisfy' the Right Hen. Baronet, or any oilier Gen ilklman, who desired an explanation on any He h 441 answered him over and oter, and. he con ceived that, standing as he did, with a close esti mate.in h.s hand, he had nothing more to do than to propose the Resolution to the Committee. . . Mr. HERBERT said, he thought the explanation given by the Right Hon. ,Gentlewan . perfedly sa tisfaCtory. Mr. HUME said, he was anxious to learn from the Right Hon. Gentleman, vahethor it was in the con templation of the Irish Government" to take advan tage of the new system of education, by which 180,000 children might. be 'educated at an expellee not exceeding that which , 24.3 U cost now ? If this plan were adopted, the whole population of Ireland might be educated in the course of a few years.— He begged leave to sanest, that the Commis sioners might seleet One or two boys, from each, of the Charter-schools, who c o uld b e sent to Eng land to learn the new system, ..and who could be t hus qualified to act, as teachers in the different s chools, which it was his wish to bee established. Mr. W. POLE begged leave shortly to trouble the Committee, in cchisequence of .what had fallen from the Hon. Mmt/er. The obaeryations of that Hoe. G.:Mier/lan secmid to him t 3 apply, not so 'much to the subje& which was immediately uAer the . cmsideration of the Committee, as to the genetal system ofedncati.in in ireiand, winch was at pre— sent tinder the, consideration of '1 he Board of Educa• lion in that country. The schools for which he had proposed this grant were founded by charter, and it was impnssible to apply the System alluded to by the Hon. Genlemao to them, scattered as they were over the He „wished very much that the Hon. Genilin c, had read the Report of . the- Commissioners Gf Education upon these char.: tors, he would then have seen how inapplicable this new system was tat hem. Mr: fluMt -s:tic% he had merely thrown out the suggestion tOr the ttonsidrration of the Committee, and he stid was-of opinin. that mud) benefit tn . :ght be derived•frotn_the adoption of the new- . plan of education. Mr. W. Smmusaid, he- considered the sum as being very large for the number of children edu cated ; and it appeared to him to be a subjeCt well worthy of consideration, whether the money could• not be laid out in a more advantageous manner. Mr. W. Pons said, he really was surprised at. the observation. made by the Honourable Gentleman.— He did not extleet to find that at this day it would hare been made a matter of discussion whether the. Protestant Charter Schools in Ireland, were bene, ficial or not ; he had never before heard a doubt ex, pressed upon the subjetl. He had the pleaArre of seeing in his place nue of the most resrectabl. Members of the Board of Education (Mr. GI attar)), and Ire would appeal to him for an opinion respect ing these Schools, and the manner iu which they were condu6led. He could not avoid again ex pressing a wish that Gentlemen had read the re, ports of the Board of Education respthing these Schools, of which there were ten or eleven before the House. Mr..GR ATTAN said, that having been referred to by the Right Honourable. Gentleman, he rose mere,. ly to observe, that the CiurunissionetS of Education. in Ireland had made an extreme 4 good report ; but it was not within the purview of their Commission to suggest or follow up any new plan, for con' udiii , g the Charter 'Schools in a way differing flow their original institution. He out sa), however, that since the report of the Commissioners of Inquiry hi 1788, these Schools were very mach improved, both as to the health and cleanliness of the childienr and that it was much better to make ample -provi, sion for_their mainteliance, than to defeat their cb ject by a parsimoniisus one. The price of provi sions had beet! gredtly-on the increase, the buildibp, also of the charity had' been •greatty improved, and these circurnstal,;z e s sufficiently justified the in:. creased voce, boat of the preceding and of the pie• sent year. The Resolution was then agreed to, as were the following : . ' Foundling If tospital L. 3 , 1,1,50.' House of li.dustry . • 4 1 .9' 2 Hibernian ; , chool . l3 c)(6 Matine Society . 2,8'6 Female Orphan House ,go 6 Viestrnoriztud L: c„ Hospital' X , . 4! Lying-in 1.-*;,osßital .• 3 I 71 Sir P:itric4. Dunn's Hospital . 3. , -16 Stevens's 'Hospital - ; . 1.424 St. lizurick's Hospital 4, iSo Fever Hotpital 2,000 ----- With regard to the last mentioned Estimate, Mr. POLE Jobserved, that it was wool. more tint) had ever been proposed before. He was ioduced.to make this proposition from tb~ great fnereise of the number of patients in the Hospital and the smallness of itsfunds ; and h e hoped that whets Gentlemen considered the great benefit arising from, this institution, they would not 'objet to the ini• creased grant.—Agreed to. Mr. Pout then moved, that the sum of Gaol. be granted for the Commissioners of Charitable Dona tions. Sir JOHN NECWPORT said, he did not rise to ob. , jeEt to this grant, but he could not a..-oid saying a few words upon some of the proceedings of these Commissioners. They had thought it proper to in terfere with bequests of Catholics, and had pre ventLd them from being carried into execution ; one had occurred in the city which he had the honour to represent A Rorrain Catholic Lady had be- ' queathed a considerable sum for charitable purpmei, but the Commissioners of. Charitable Donations hid thought proper to interfere, and to prevent the from being carried into execution ; the consequence of which was, that several poor widows, who under this will were to be furnished with an asylum, were now aaually begging their bread. The Board of Charitable Donations was composed of the Arch bishops, B:shops, Judges, and some others, and ho - did not by any means wish to question their respect ability, but he thought it unfortunate that they should thus interfere with the bequests of the Ro man Catholics. Mr. W. POLE begged to trouble the House for a - few moments, 'in consequence of what bad fallen from the Right Honourable Baronet. • The Rigla Honourable Baronet had stated to the Committee the rn inner in Avhith the Bolrd of Charitable Do nat-ons was forme f, and when it was known that it v. as composed of the kclibisho:.:s, Bishops,- and Judges of Ireland, ,the Committee, he was sure► won d not su-peat that such a Board cold 46t in the improper mantivr st:ted by the Right Hon. Bal-ont;_t• This was' nut the first thine that the Board of Ch ritahle Donations had been arraigned. He had heard - charges of .a siinilar kind preferred before, in consequence s of which he .bad sent for - the Secre' tary of that Board, to a.k for an account of their proceedings. It !timed out, that during the tweivo. years that this Board had been established, it hai l instituted only fifteen - prosecutions, alt under the opinion of the Attorney General for the time tieing; of these fifteen prosecutions only Jwo had bee' brought against persons of the Roman Catholic ligion. In. one of these two cases, the CC/MEl:is' sinners found that a sum which bad beets left by Roman Catholic to endow an hospital had not bte° applied, and they interfered, to compel the-per' formance of the will. The consequence was, that the bequest was carried into effect, and an hospital , in the town of New .Ross, for Roman Ca,i,olid only, was ereded by the means of these Cotnns' s ' sioners. The other case was the one alluded to 0, the Right Hon. Baronet ; it was the case of Ml 6 ' Power, of Waterford, who had left a large sum N I : charitable uses; but this money having been le t ' to two Roman Catholic Bishops and thex Rued ' sors for ever, Mr. - Finlike, the A:terney-General'. m entertained a doubt whether these Roan CAthiell;,'