The Sun. — London, England, 1812-07-17 00:00:00

IMPS RM P'ARLIAMENT HOUSE OF LORDS, THURSDAY. MISCELLANEOUS. • In a Committee of Privileges, their Lordships Proceeded further in the consideration of the case of ,the Irish Peerage of Kihnorrey : to proceed again rln Tuesday next, to which day the consideration jof the case of the Athlone Peerage was also ad ourned, After the House had resumed, the LORD CHAN cELtoR moved the judgment of their Lcirdships on the Scots causes, M'Nair against Fleming.— These, after delivering his sentiments as to their legal merits, he proposed should be affirmed, with certain reservations—which was ordered ac cordingly. The Stone. Bottle Duty Bill, the Bonded Goods Transport, the Isle o f M an T ra d e , t h e Inclosure Affidavit, and the Manure Carriage Bills were brought up by Aft..LUSHINGTGN and other Gen tlemen from the Commons, and severally read a first time. The Riots Bill was returned, with Amendments made by their Lordships therein, agreed to by the Com mons. The East India Loan . Bill passed through a Committee- of the whole House, was reported without Amendments, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. The App ea l s an d Chancery Bill was, after re bce,iVog a few f urt h er A men d ments b y way o f 'icier, on the motion of Lord REDESDALE read a third time and passed. The Revenue Penalties, the Irish Butter Trade, a nd the Army Unclaimed Prizes Bill were read a third time, and passed. Earl STANHOPE presented a Petition from a ;lumber o f Prisoners confined in, the Fleet, for al ?ged offences against the Revenue Laws, praying lor relief:- Ordered to lie on the table. On the second reading of the Local Tokens t . Tile Earl of LAUDERDALE"expressed his inten vp of offe r i ng som e o bj ect i ons to t h e measure, when it should be proposed to go into a Com , i tittee on it. GENERAL HIGHWAYS RILL. ohin the question for going into, a Committee gM Obi t e _ _The Ea r l o f H ARDWICKE urge d the - propriety T r t heir Lord s hip s go i ng i nto t h e Committee as Tr co ncurred perfectly in its p r i nc ipl e , an d s h ou ld l u s e glad to acce d e to any amendments that might 4 'e offered to ameliorate the Bill. The Earl o f L AUDERDALE d eprecated the go i ng v gt° a Co mm i ttee on t h e at such a very ad `"leed peri o d o f t h e S ess i on. Th ere were many irrds wh o h a d turne d t h e i r ser i ous attention to m easure, aria who w ou ld Wi s h t o ass i st i n t h e , Isc ussion of its details, who now would have no tfriortunity. He _knew there were many coin aints against the presedt Eystem t .but the pass g of such a crude in4 l / 4 ested measure as that r VPosed, would still aggravate these complaints. measure, though - something of the kind was ,ecessarv, should' no t lie concurred in, except oh ',attire deliberation and the fullest information thes u b; iect. I Glancing at one ()fits provisions, ?sg'.'veu, it *as proposed to reduce the height R„ 43l e fences to five feet. In S c otl a nd, h owever , " a r egu l at iO n wouM be unnecessary, as it th °111 (1 be better 'to enact they should be raised _ere to th a t height! Upon the whole, he must njore t h e i r L or d s hi ps to put off the Considera -1%1 of the subject to another Session. 3 - T he Earl o f H ARDWICKE , i n exp l anat i on, o h 7 „erred, t h at the Bill went little more than to en i°ree th e existing statute law with ' respect to the , v l ghways. M any C ountry G ent l emen, w h o were fret)? conversant In the subject,,had assisted in liming the Bill in the other House, and he saw Shtte'Prospect of a inoo favourable progress in the n eSS being made i n the next, than in the pre p Session of Parliament. T heir Lordships then divided—. For goini into the CoMmittee 4 Against . ' 9 "Majority 4 , 4 _ The ' Hous e immediately (and before the re "u_usstott of strangers), adjourned till to-morrow. 14 0 USE OF COMAONS, THURSDAY. Colonel BLOOMFIELD took the oaths and his teat. Perso n from .the Exchequer present e d an Ac "L of the Nett Proceeds' 'of . the Pernia.dent and a ,r Tax es f or t h e t h ree last y e ars, distinguishing loch cluaa - ter; And also an Account of the.Consoli— ,,, ,`ed T r uad for the same period. Ordered tci be all'ir• TIERNEY, from the Tax-Ofiice, presented Ae cci S unt of the Window T ax c oll ec t e d in e 9tlana. 1 1 , l' heiteport of the New Forest Bill was brought , 1 71161 agreed to; and the Bill ordered to be read 4,,ird time to-morrow. • * , he Hotisewent into .a .Committee on the As -4eBed Taxes Allowances-,. -in .which it was resolv tr. that the Chairman sh6tild move. for leave to \ . „.:!: 11 g in : a Bill:. The resumed, the*Report a 48 b roUght'Ull, and agreed to, and a Bill ordered etardingly r l a r i ; HARTONT hdving*Moved for leave to bring restricting, the White Herring Fishery ; Iti,'lntaittee was appointed to consider an Act de durin g ,th e last Session of Parliament, re ta7d44," this F i sher ; Mr. Wharton then ob ged leave t o b r i ng in a Bill to repea l an d amen d 'the A s aid Act 1 40 - 1, Message from the Lords announeed• their ti t z i."hips assent to the Commercial. Exchequer f ate 11 111 the Local Tockens. Bill, and some h ers. Th titTle C rown Lands Leasing Bill was read a first th r , ' and orde re d t o b e read a second time 'to . . Rr a ,, f e i ,Lejoort of the- Frame Work Knitters Bill Bill ` a iterl into further c onside ra ti on , wh e n th e ti ll was recommitted, the Report ieccived, the . fort, 9rder e d t o b e pr i nted, and to b e taken into I,7er consideration to-morrow. Smuggling Bill, the Manure Carriage Bill, ""rehou s i ngs Bill,. and the Isle of Man.,,Trade w ere read ti third ti m e an d p asse d. Th e Assessed Taxes Bill was brought up, read iirst time, and ordered to be read a second time to -morrow. The Coffee Sbitirig Bill Went through a com mittee, the Report of which was ordered to be re ceived to-marrow. The Privy Purse Bill went through a Committee, the Report of which was received, and the Bill or dered for a third reading to-morrow. •• 'A Copy of the Appointment of the Lords Com thissioners of ,the West 'lndia Revenue, and their Inst. uctions, as also :the Report of the -Corrnbis sioners, dated 6th March, 1812, were ordered to be laid before the House. On the motion of the'CntccELt,ors. of the Ex- CHEQUER, it was ordered, that the House should on Monday resolve itself into a Committee on the Export of Sugar Spirits. The'Report of the Committee on the Prince Re gent's Message, respecting the Vote of Credit, was brought up and agreed to, and a Bill ordered to be brought in. The debate on the Financial Resolutions, which stood for yesterday, was, on the motion of the, Chancellor of the Exchequer, ordered to be re suined on Monday. ' • The French Prisoners of 'War tscape Bill went through a Committee, the Report of which was ordered to be received to-morrow. PEACE PRESERVATION BILL. Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that as he had no opportunity of introducing the clause Irhich be wished to propose, but in this stage of theßill (the further consideration of the Report) it was necessary for him now to' state what occurred to 'him on the occasion. When he had proposed it on a fOrmer evening, an idea appeared to prevail through the House, that the clause in question went to supersede the established Magistracy of, the country, and . to give the authority of the Ma gistrates to persons not qualified to- exercise it . Than this, nothing was . farther from his intention. He proposed to move it again, but with this modi fication, that though it would enable the 'Crown to commission persons unqualified iii themselves, .yet it would only go to admit persons into the Commission who were the sons of Peers, or of . persohs qualified tp hold a 'seat in that House, or of persons whO, though not qualified to hold the Commission from any - qualification possessed ,in the disturbed districts, possessed the required Oa lication in an adjoining county. The whole po licy of the measure was to increase the means Q the Magistracy, to enable 1 em effectually to meet the existing danger. The House must be aware that the qualifications required,,consisted in land ed property In the view which Government had taken of the present state of things, it appeared to them that it might be desirable to dispense with such landed qualification, but it ' had never been in their contemplation •to place the Magis tracy . of the country in the -hands of ,persons, . who, having no stake in, - and connection with the disturbed counties, were unworthy the confidence of the people. • General TARLETON animadverted, with . _ _ siderable warmth, on the manner in which the Noble Lord had attempted to introduce the clause in question. He then took a general view of the Noble Lord's conduct with respect to the E 4, pedition to Walcheren, ,Parliamentary Reform, and the Difi.ur . bances in Ireland. He was proceed ing at some length on what had occurred in Ire land, when, The SPEAKER observed, that the question before the House was on the Further Consideration of the Report of a Bill for the Preservation of the Peace in this Country. General TARLETON- resumed his peech ; and, again adverting to what bad passed in Ireland— Mr. WALLACE spoke - to order. _ _ General TARL ET - 0 N, ' proceeding, in his speech, gave it as his opinion, that the Noble Lord 9p poSite was not ,fit, in times like the present, to guide the Imperial Vessel of the. State; and thought that, under his command, th e Royal George would be likely to gd to the bottom. He concluded, again censuring the maimer , in which the Noble Lord had introduced the-.clause—after which, he thought it was incunibent on the House scrupulously - to investigate every thing that came from that quarter. The Report was then taken into further consi- Kleratiod, and the Bill re-committed... Mr. AEE RCRO MEM (in the Committee) ,strongly opposed the first clause of the, Bill.` llc.objected to giving Magistrates the power ,of searching for anus, and hoped at any rate that they would not be suffered to search any perSon'g bouse.respecting which no information had been given. • . Lord CASTLEREAG-H replied at some length to the speech-of the Honourable and Learned Gen tleman. He defended the p . rovisions of the Bill, and, contended that the most bbjectionable part of it (that of calling on the peaceable inhabitants. to give up their arms) was justified by the neces sity of the case. • , , - . Mr. BEN NETT was against entrusting the Ma gistrates with • any new powers.at a time lihe the present. Instead of doing this, he was rather in • favour of calling for a rigorous account of the manner in, which they had exercised that given them by the law as it now §,tands. Mr: )3ATHURST declared, that he was convinced from' the information he had received, that there was a systematic combination of persons for the purpose of seizing arins lie could not agree with the Hon. Gentleman, that the, cause' of the disturbances.proceeded entirely from. the absence of work, but was of opinion that they originated in other motives. The most ingenious apologist for those nightly depredators could not, with truth, ascribe their conduct to that cause, namely, want of employ. :There was' a something beyond, what met the eye at present which induced them to steal arms, 'and to secrete them, which at some distant time might be disclosed. With respect to the particular clause objected to,. there was an appeal , given to any 'person conceiving himself _ag grieved by the order of the g a g is trate, which tip peal might be prosecuted at the. Quarter Session. If, therefore, the judgment of the .Magistrate should not be correct, redress Was afforded by ap peal. Much had been.safd.on the similarity of the measure to that - in force in .Ireland durhig,the Rebellion': Any reference to the state of that kingdom at .that time,-he much deprecated; it could harem() good object. But if there was a new. state of things in this 'country, requiring new measures in order to restore the public peace, it *Could. isot Sttrely be ear:tended that GOverthent ought not to be prepared to meet the exigency of the case, and prevent one part of the .people' - from rising in array against another part, for 01.) I - vions inotives,--motive of amisehievons tendency. Mr..Ti 011 P; denied that there was any similarity i In the situation of. the two countries so ,as to•call, for this Bill. The act of Ireland, which contain ed _ a clause similar in' its enactment, namelyo giv ing powers to the Magistrates to search for and collect arms, was not effective, at least-with the view which the Irish-Legislature took when they passed it. .Nearly the whole of the arms surren dered into the hands of the Government were sur rendered by the rebels, for the purpose of taking the oath' of allegiance.. He concurred with the Noble Lord that the country ought to look for protection to its Magistrac Re passed a warm panegyric' upon the characte y r and the general con duct of the Magistracy ; but objected to the first clause, as tending to encourage informers, and as trenching - upon the liberty of the subject ; but if it was necessary, to search, he recommended that search to he made in the day, and not in the night time, and in the presence of the Magistrate giving the order.. , Mr. GlLEs,objected to the clause, for the same reasons urged by the former Speakers, and moved as an amendment, that after - the words " order signed by any Magistrate," there should be intro duced-the words rr ' two or more Magistrates." Lord CASTLEREAGII informed the Hon. Gentle man, that the Framers of the Bill'had considered the subject, and were of opinion that much diffi, culty might arise in getting together x.vvo Magi strates, and therefore one was proposed. Mr. TIERNEY contended, that there was no ne cessity for, giving so much power into the hands of ,the Magistrates, especially r% lienit was consi dered the sort of person which, in small borough towns, was in 'the Commission of the Yeace,who, from pique against a particular individual, or with a view , to shew , his power, might subject the . individual to 'great: hardships. He was not dis posed to deny there was a mischievous spirit abroad, but having been a Meniher of the Secret. Committee, he must say, ,that he gleaned no se-. crets more than he knew long before the Com mittee was formed. His Hon. Friend (Mr.Whit bread) had alluded to the sort of persons within, report had ascribed as likely to be the leaders ,of the insurgents. One person Wad got himself, twisted in, and afte - rwards (having forgot to ask before) lequested to know what sort of a society he had got into. He was answered, it was com posed of a number of civil and military officers ; that they y.Fere ingreat hopes of having an ,acces sion,to their strength in the person of the Duke of Yoei. laugh) Nay, 'so ridiculous were theie hopes, that they talked at another time that . Sir Francis Burdett was the man who was to get t'id of the Royal Family ; that then he would be dictator for two years. They afterwards named three persons of consideration as likely to take the management of State affairs ; and those three persons were Lord Cochrane, Sir Francis Burdett, and Mr. Whitbread; that itiwai settl&t to seize upon the Tower and to surround the army.— (4 laugh !) These mighty achievements were 'to be performed without any treasury funds, without an: depot of arms, for no 'proof bad ben given that they had either. The Hon. Gentleman ar gued at great length against the Bill so invading the principles of the Constitution, and 'Which, if gassed, would, he maintained, give the Govern ment cause to , lament the day on which it was. passed._ • - Mr. BATHURST re4irged the , arguments which he bad before used in favour of the. Bill. Mr. WILBERFORCE, while 'he contended that Several of the disturbed districts had.exhibited a scene of terror. dismay; , outrage, violence, and bloodshed, rendered it necessary,to enact the pre sent measure in order to protect the well disposed. part of the community; was of opinion that the power in the clause under discussion ought not to he exercised by a single ,Magistrate, but that the concurrence of two should be necessary to carry it into effect. • . Sir G. WARRENDER was of opinion, that the clause was most essential;to the Bill. - Lord CASTLEREGH, however, anxious to adopt any proposition by which the responsibility at tendant on. apy'defectiye exaution of the measure might dot fall back upon those in whom th e nie j a- - sure originated, was persuaded, that, there were many cases in which . * delay that must be occa sioned by waiting for two Magistrates would Corn . - pletely defeat the object of the Bill. In 'the Northern Counties, Magistrates, upon the ave rage, lived eight or,ten miles from each other. If in the night, the insurgents . - seized any arms they might have time enough to remove' them into a place of security, if a single. Magistrate were not permitted to carry into, effect the clause udder dis cussion. Indeed, unless .the power . was given to a single Magistrate, it would be better to leave the clause out altogether ; andhe should There fore. feel it his. duty _to take the sense of the Com mittee on the amendment proposed by the Hon. and Learned Member. Mr. W. BOOTLE declare& from his local know ledge, that in Lancashire,, Unless the clause were made operative by one Magistrate alone; it would be perfectly ineffectual. Mr. WILBERFOaCE explained. Mr. HosiioUSE cautioned the Committee against sacrificing the object of the Bill in their wish to consult moderation. Those who seized arms were extremely vigilant, and the utmost' promptitude. would be necessary to detect them. Mr. W. SMITH admitted that some advantages would be gained in point of celerity, by allowing the clause to stand as it was ; • but ioubted whe ther that advantage. would not, be' much overba lanced by inconveniencies, and , particularly by the unpopularity in which it would involve the mea sure atlarge. HANVKINS BROWNE maintained the neces sity of confiding the power to ore Magistrate, if it were intended to render_the Bill effective. Mr. MARTIN (of Galway)_ was of the same opi nion, and referred in support of .it to the Irish Acts. He approved of the clause by which Ma- gistiates were empowered to take arms from the loyal as well as froM those suspected of disloyalty. This would prevent odium from attaching to those who, notwithstanding such mkspicions, might be very well disposed subjects. To take away the .arms of would prevent the phssibility of strife. -He supported the tonality of the Bill. -. lvta. SHRRIDAN declared that he shouldd. iorfeit all. the consistency of his political life,'if he corn= tenancetl a single prdvision of the Bill: The E.Io; . hour ale Gentlemanaht.) . had just spoken, in say= ing that when the arms were taken there would be 'Strife, said truly. Every Woman might avoid a rape by simple acquiescence. Looking at the clause which immediately followed that before the Committee, It bras-with grief and sltanie that he saw it went. flat, merely to strip the suspected disloyal of.theirarms, but to take them from the man suspected of timidity and want of courage to defend his own tonse.. All the arm; were to be forcibly seized,- and the' civil officers were thus to be made to emulate, and even to excel the htiuse breakers in their violanice. lie did not believe that it was - possible for Englishmen to wish for such protection as this. There was nothing In the Report which justified the - supliosition. verting-to the proceedings in the year 1793, he ridiculed the attempts which were then made to create an alarm in the public mind-, and compared them with the present. The proposed Bill was not conformable to the spirit Of the British Con stitution,. which never required - a-vigour beyond what the law imparted to it. . He denied the jus;. tice of an Honourable and eloquent Member's • (Mr. Grant'S) allusion:on a recent evening to the Dictatorship of . , llorne. There was no analogy between thetwo .ca.ses... -This country was not a republic, but had a perpetual Dictator—the Sovca reign; • regidated in his conduct by the law. With respect to the reference made' by the Honourahlo. Gentleman. who last-spoke to the Irish Acts, he (Mr. 5-.) contended,. that a comparison between the Acts would skew a distinctive difference. To prove this;. he read part of the Act brought in by the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. W. Pole), in which it was provided that the Ma gistrate should not act without -a previous com munication to the Lord Lieutenant, and without a previous information on oath. Let the different circumstances also of the two countries be taken \into Consideration. In Ireland, at the period in which that Act passed, all .was dismay and confu sion ;, here. the evjl had nearly passed by, although Ministers came to Parliament screaming like sea gulls when the storm was over. Ile must give his decided opposition to the measure. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL comment:net with cen suring the declaration of the Right Honourable Gentleman, that he did not believe -a word of the Report. He observed, that no one had hitherto ventured upon the same assertion, and that all those who profeSsed local knowledge rather blamed the Committee for understaking than for exaggerating the danger. As he (the Attorney-. General) believed every word contained in the , Report, and deemed it a delusive hope to think . that a the danger was at an end, he should not give up his opinion, until some person from the spot had come forward to prove the contrary. fie cautioned the House agnhist interpreting a tempos , rary suspension of violence, when the A,ssizest were come round, into a - total abendonnient of it; and thought that the Meuse was bound to take preoantionary measures ;` indeed, he did not know. who could take upon himself the responsibility-of adopting a contrary course under all the cireum stanbes. He would tell the Right Honourable Gentleman that it was no light or jocular matter ; he could tell him, that very lately,. intimidations had been used to those who were to give evidence on the trials of some of the disturbers. The pre sent measure was altogether a measure of precau tion and defecice; its object was, by removing the,arms from the. houses, to remove - the cause of die nocturnal visits. The Right Honourable Gen tleman had said, that-the Government of "reload, notwithstanding the existence of greater disturb ances, had not gone the whole length -of this Measure; but the Act which he quoted in support of this opinion was the Act of .1810, after all the danger had subsided. This was -a. proof of the easiness with which the Right Honourable Gen tleman believed outrages' which did not, exist, and the difficulty with. which he believed those that did. Upon these grounds; he could not agree with the Right Hon. , Gentleman. Mr. SHERIDAN said, the only sense in which he disbelieved the Committee was, that he did not think there was any. such thing as a formed plan of rebellion and insurrection. In this opinion he -was borne out by the judgment of some. Honour able FriendS of his: An Honourable Friend, the Member' for Yorkshire, had:told them that he voted in a Minority of one in favour of.parole evi dence, and he (Mr. S.) would . ask upon what ground could lie -have given such a vote, if he did bpi believe that theawritten evidence was unfound ed ? Ire ridiculed the idea of taking arms- from tbeyeople for - their protection, . and maintained that on theaame - principle Upon which we t0.01.i their arms we might take their money; in order to put it into safer custody, especially as the takitig of the arms rendered it more exposed. It-- was impossible to kno* the length to which things would go, when once the principles of the Censti tation were violated. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL explained. An HOD. BARONET, whose natne.we could not learn, declared that he bad expected td find in the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. ,S.) one of the prin cipal supporters of the Constitution . under its present difficulties. If he thought the powers ep a plied for would -be made an improper use of by Government, he should be as willing as any man, to join in opposing it. Sir S. ROMILLY recalled the attention of the - House to the clause under discussion, and affirm ed that any acts which infringed the liberty of the subject could not be too closely. scrutinized. He opposed the clause, principally on the ground that it went to supersede the' Constitution to a greater degree than even the Insurreetion Act of Ireland, and also from an idea that the power of searching for' arms at night would have a tendency to faci litate the designs of the insurgents themselves by affording them-a pretext which could not easily be detected. He should, therefore move, as an amendment, that the words " by night" should be left out for the purpose of limiting the search to the day time. Lord CASTLEREAGH entered into an explana tion of the Irish Act, which, he said, not only authorised search by night and by day, but reil dered the-secret -possession of arms penal. lie