The Sun. — London, England, 1837-12-19 00:00:00

L_ 11 14 s j net io zatrred a forfeiture of his estate for neglecting t o . i j'""-f„ Oh, oh ) „; k : 4r t .C. HOBHOUSE said the question of sufficiency th . 1 ;c ,be decided by the examiners alone. He did not think e ; , st , Souse had any jurisdiction in the matter until they had of e their decision. As he did not see the slightest indication any fraud, be should vote for the extension of the time for S'-thing in the recognizanoes. Mr. MACLE AN opposed the motion. Mr. CHARLES WOOD thought a sufficient case had twen made out to allow the extension for the time asked. Lord SANDON felt bound to oppose the motion. Sir R. PEEL thought the legal name ought to have been given, and that course not having been adopted, the motion 'ought not to be granted. If the House did grant the motion it would be giving a premium to fraud, and would relax its rules established for' a series of years in an improper manner. He fano& the House ought to have the opinion of the Chair, -43 to what course ought to be pursued. The SPEAKER thought, in cases like the present, the :rules of the House might to be rigidly adhered to. Lord JOHN RUSSELL referred to a ca.e which occurred last week, in which time had been given. In that case the Party had been rejected by the examiners, because he had not been described as a trader, which he was. In that case the priaties were allowed to amend the description. Having, on Friday night, decided that the rigid -rule was to be relaxed, it would scarcely be just now to stria that rule— (Hear, her r)--especially as the present was, if possible, a leetter er.s e for indulgence.—( Hear.) Sir H. HA RDINGE said, that on Friday night br,.d decided in favour of the indulgence, because the Noble lArd the Member for Devon (Lord Ebrington) had given his a'..surance as to the validity of the sureties. But on this oc casion he thought the rule, as stated by the Speaker, was preferable to the house taking an equitable jurisdiction into its own hands—( Hear, hear,)—and he should be equally ready to rescind the decision of the House on Friday. Mr. E. STANLEY asked if the House had that power? The SPEAKER said, undoubtedly the House did possess that power. Mr. AGLIONBY thought the whole circumstances of the Pontefract case ought to be brought before the House. In this case he should give his vote in favour of indulgence, for he thought it a bona fide case, but in the Pontefract case gross fraud had been committed. Mr. FRE SHFIE LD considered that in this cue there had been negligence. Lord HOWICK said it was highly important that election T2etitions should be shut out by merely technical objections.-- ( Hear, hear.) Care should be taken that the object of the law was fulfilled—that the sureties were valid—but that bona ,fide errors should. be ground for indulgence.—( Hear, hear, and loud cries of " Question.") Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. The House then divided when there appeared-- For the original motion Against it 6B Majority for the motion 55 PONTEFRACT ELECTION PETITION. Mr. AGLIONBY stated that within the last few minutes be had been very earnestly requested to ask the House to give instructions that Mr. Gompertz shonld also attend to morrow. He begged to move, therefore, that Mr. Gom pertz be required to attend. The motion was (as we understocd) agreed to. PENSIONS' LIST COMMITTEE. The order of the day for the House resolving itself into Committee of Supply being again moved, Sir GEORCIE SINCLAIR rose to call the attention of the House to the situation in which it stood with respect to the Pension List Committee. Looking at the time which had been occiapied, he would not say wasted, in the discussion of that evening, and seeing that the subjects which stood upon Ole paper were most of them of a description to lead to deleate, it appeared to him not only improbable that the quinstion of how the Committee was to be constituted could ome forward at the usual hour that evening, but highly improbable, also, that it could be brought forward at a rea sonable hour on any evening previous to the recess. But, however that may be, it appeared to him that it would be only fair that the House should be put in possession of the names which her Majesty's Ministers proposed to place upon the Committee one day, at least before the discussion took place.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Many per sons, both in and out of the House, entertained a great jealousy as to the names to be placed upon the Committees, especially when it was remembered that one of her Majesty's Ministers [as we understood the Hon. Ba ronet] had upon a former occasion declared an inquiry of this kind to be unjust and disgusting. It was anxiously desired, be believed on all sides, that the inquiry should be fair and impartial, and that it should be entered upon with as little de lay as possible. Of course until the Committee was named he did not know whether the Hon. Member for Southwark was to be placed upon i; or nut ; but if he were not, he must say that he ( Sir G. Sinclair) thought the Hon. Member would be treated unjustly or unfairly, because if the Hon. Member had himself been permitted to bring the question for 'ward, as he bad done on many previous occasions, there could be no doubt but that he would have been a Member of the Committee. He (Sir George Sinclair) thought, therefore, that the Committee should be named without delay, and that oue day at least should be given to the House to consider whether' the recommendations of the Ministry were such as would entitle the Committee to the respect and confidence of the country.—(Hear, hear.) If the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer would consent to an ar rangement of that kind, he ( Sir George Sinclair) would not say more upon the subject that evening ; but if the question were again postpor ed, and no time fixed for its consideration, and if, when it were brought forward, the House was to be called upon to decide at once as to the propriety of the relation made by the Government, he should then certainly feel it to be his duty to take the sense of the House upon the subject. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not know to what practical conclusion the Hon. Baronet's observa tions tended. He told the Hon. Baronet on a former occasion, and he had also repeated it to him again that night, that there was no intention on the part of the Government of bringing on the question, which, as they were informed, was to become the matter of a debate at a late or inconvenient hour. If it were brought forward at any period that might be inconvenient to the Hon. Baronet, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should be the first person to say, " Let it be postponed to some future time that might be more convenient." At the same time he must observe that any inconvenience that might arise to individual and particular Members, was an inconve nience for which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was not responsible. The Hon. Baronet now called upon him to give the names of the Members whom it was proposed to place upon the Committee. Now he found upon the order paper for to-morrow a notice of motion given by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny, that in future the nomination of indivi duals to be placed upon Committees should alwats he given for some time prcceder.t to the appointment of the Committee.—(Hear, hear.) It was not for him the (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to say whether he considered such a course as convenient or not, but at all events it was a question that was to be fairly raised to-morrow, and there fore the Honourable Baronet would excuse him if he declined t° enter into a discussion of it to-day. If the House should decide the motion of the Honourable Member for Kilkenny in the affirmative to-morrow, he (the Chancellor of the Exche quer) should be perfectly satisfied to postpone the nomination of the Committee until Wednesday ; and, in obedience to the decision of the House, to give in the names of the Gentlemen he should propose as Members of it to-morrow. He had no wish, he had no idea whatever, in naming the Committee, to make it other than a tribunal which should discharge honestly and efficiently the duty with which it was to be entrusted.— ( Hear, hear.) And, if the names ultimately suggested did not justify that declaration of his intention, it would bo for the House to object to any or all of those names, and to substitute others in their place. Mr. D. W. HA RVEY observed that the notice of the Ho nourable Member for Kilkenny appeared to be a perfect Godsend to the Government.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) There was in fact no straw however filthy or however small, at which they would not catch to save thernselres from this inquiry.—( Hear, hear.) What the Honourable Baronet (Sir G. Sinclair) wished to know was whether this important motion was to be submitted to the House at a cor• rest and appropriate time. " As regards myself," continued the Hon. Gentleman, " remembering my declaration of the other evening, a declaration which subsequent reflection in duces me to repeat, I relieve the Right Honourable Gentle man from any oppression as to placing me upon the Com mittee. After the treatment to which I have been exposed I repeat that nothing under heaven shall induce me to serve upon a Committee appointed by the Right Honourable Gen tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer—(hear, hear) —but at the same time, if the House upon consideration should think as I do, that the course proposed by the Government is a most censurable course—if the House, echoing the opinions and sentiments of the country, shall think that I ought to be placed upon the Committee, I shall cheerfully bow to its de cision. I will not describe my opinion of the conduct that has been pursued in this matter, because it is rot the first time that I have been treated in a similar manner. Some years ago I brought forward a subject connected with the Woods and Forests, to which I had devoted weeks and months of my time. No sooner had I brought it to maturity, when it was likely to be useful, than the Government took it out of my hands and made it a perfect abortion.—( Hear.) Whether that is the course which it is proposed now to pursue I will not say, though past experience may suggest the appre hension of it ; but this I will say, that I think the conduct of the Government towards me extremely ungenerous and un manly.—( Hear, hear.) Sir G. SINCLAIR—Under these circumstances I shall ' move as an amendment to the motion now before the House, that the Order of the Day for the appointment of the Pension ' List Committee be now read ; and upon that amendment I will tak e the sense of the House. The question having been put, Mr. WARBURTON entreated the Government to state at ' once the names they proposed to place upon the Committee. They must have fully considered the names they intended to propose,_( Hear.) Then why not mention them at once, and put an end to all further doubt and anxiety upon the -- subject.—( Hear.) They were bound in common justice to th e Honourable Mi mber fur Southwark no longer to allow the question to remain in suspense, leaving his name to be bandied about by the public, as it would naturally be, as long as it re /naked a matter of doubt whether be were to sit upon the Cc mmittee or not. It was not dealing fairly with an indivi dual Member of the House, to allow him to be treated in this manner.—( Hear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I admit that the Honourable Member for Southwark is placed in a situation that can not but be disagreeable in consequerce of the questions that have been raised—( Hear, hear)—but that is no fault of ours— (Hear)—the fault, if any, is owing to others, not to us.— (Hear, hear.) But, at the same time, I will say, that owing, as it is, to other parties, I am still ready, if it be the opinion of the Horse that the matter has been involved in an obscurity and doubt from which it ought to be cleared--I am ready, I sac, as far as the Governmcnt is concerned, to call open my Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exche quer, and to request him (a request with which I know he will rot h-sitate to comply) to place upon the Notice-book this evening the ❑ames of the Members whom he proposes to place upon the Committee. Is that what the Honourable Baronet wishes ?—( Cries of " No, no.") After a moment's pause, Sir GEORGE SINCLAIR ruso and sad—That t+i!l not correspond with my views upon the subject ; I shall take the serve of the House upon the amendment I have moved. Lord JOHN RUSSELL resumed—Then I must proceed at once to state the grounds upon which we propose to act with regard to the Hon. Member for Southwark.—( Hear.) Lest year the Hon. Member was placed upon the Committee which sat upon the Report of the Poor-laws. The Committ found that all their proceedings were reported in the daily newspapers, generally fully reported ; some times only in portions, consisting of extracts end selected passages ; but in one shape or the other; whether at full length or only in part, the publication of their proceedings was continued from day to day. This, as the House wid perceive, was in direct contravention of the directions placed upon all the papers delivered to Members of Committees---" that it is particularly requested that these papers may not be communicated to any other persons, being intended solely for use of the Committee."—( Hear, hear.) The sub ject of the publication of their proceedings was brought under the notice of the Committee, and your authority, Sir, was mentioned as conclusive, that no member of the Committee ought to disregard or to commit a breach of the order attached to the papers placed in his hand. The lion. Member for Southwark, as I understand, did not deny that the publication complained of originated with him. I then thought it neces • sary, in order that the Hon. Member might have no room for doubt, to bring forward a question in this House as to the right of members of Committees to make publications cf the proceedings that took place before them; and the resolution which I then proposed was agreed to after a division upon the question of adjournment, but without any division upon the question itself. I have that resolution now before me ;it was agreed to by the House on the 21st of April last, and is in the following terms :—" That according to the undoubted privileges of this House, and for the due protection of the public niter. st, the evidence taken by any Select Committee of this House, and documents presented to such Committee, and which have not been reported to the House, ought not to be published by any member of such Committee, or by any other person." I had hoped that such a resolution on the part of the House would have taken away any doubt or hesitation that any Member of the Committee could have en tertained as to the propriety or the right of publishing what transpired before a Select Committee prior to the Report of Jest Committee having been made to the House. But such was not the result. The publication continued, and the Members of the Committee were placed in the very great diffi culty—a difficulty which all felt to be very great and very painful—of being either obliged to report from day to day, contrary to the opinion of a large majority of them, or to con nive at a daily infringement of the Orders of the House, or else to bring the proceedings before the House, to ask the House to proceed to the vindication of its own rights and pri vileges, and thus have produced a feeling in the public mind that an Hon. Member who took a strong part against the Poor Law Amendment Act was to be visited with punishment in consequence of his opposition to that measure. As the least of these evils we took the course of reporting from day to day the proceedings of the Committee. lam afraid, Sir, that that course must have met with your disapprobation.—(Hear, hear.) I know that many Members of the Committee, and many Members of the House, I believe amongst others my Honourable Friend the Chairman of the Committee, disap proved of this course—( Hear, hear, hear)—a course which was taken at my suggestion, and supported by the Hon. Baronet the Meniber for Buckingham (Sir Thomas Freman tle.) Such was the course which we ultimately adopted ' • but previously to our doing so th e H on . M em ber for Southwark opposing himself to the resolution of the House, continued his publication, and the rest of - the Committee, not willing to take any strong course, allowed the resolution to remain during that time in suspense. Though armed with the reso lution of the House to protect its proceedings, and though the Hon. Member continued his daring defiance of that resolution, the Committee did not proceed to act upon it ; but adopted the milder course, attended as it was with a hundred i nconveniences, of reporting its own proceedings from day to day. But, although in the instance of the Poor-law Committee we took the course which we thought the most expedient, yet I must say that I am not prepared again to place upon a Select Committee of this House terminated by any Member of the Government an Hon. Member who defied the resolution of the House---(Cheers) —who stated that he would be guided solely by his own opirrien, contrary to the decision of this House, and between whom and the House, if be were again placed upon a Select Committee, a question must arise—one of the questions which are the most injurious to the reputation of the House— namely, a question in which the dissentient Member is made apparently a martyr to the resolutions and proceedings of this House in the vindication of its own;prieileges.—( Hear.) We have known in former days how much popular excitement has been caused by sending the members of Committees to places _of eonfinement ; and we all know that some Members of the House have owed much of their popular reputation to that very resistance to the orders and privileges of the House of which the Hon. Member for Southwark gave an in stance upon the Poor-law Committee.—( Hear, hear.) I think, then, that the safest course—much as it may bo disapproved of—much as it may be made the subject of popular mis representation—l still think that the safest course for us to pursue will be to name as fair and just a Committee as we can, but not to place upon it the name of the Honourable Member for Southwark.—( Hear, hear.) If the House chooses to say, " Let our privileges be in abeyance, let all our orders be disobeyed—any Member who pleases shall have his own will and pleasure upon Committees, uneontradicted by the House"—if the House choose to say so, let it be so, but let it not come from us—(Hear, hear)—let it not be said that it was the Government who proposed to invade and trample upon the privileges of the House.—( Hear, hear.) I should be forgetful of the privileges of the House, and un mindful of those serious difficulties in which we were involved in the last Session, and which I am sure no gentleman who sat upon the Poor-law Committee can ever forget, if I were to propose the nomination of the Hon. Member for Southwark upon another Select Committee.--( Hear, lnar. ) I will only in conclusion add, that should the Civil List Act be proceeded with to-night, my Right Hon. Friend will be ready to give notice of the names he proposes to place upon the Com mittee.—( Hear, hear. ) Mr. HALL regretted that the Hon and Learned Gentle man the Member for Southwark was not to be on the Com mittee—he having devoted considerable time and labour to the investigation of the Pension List, and that in opposition to the different Governments of the day. This subject had now been brought forward for five or six years, and those who were the most deeply interested in it would n.ot consider that full justice was intended to be done if the name of the Hon. aid Learned Member for Southwark were omitted. There were two parties interested in the question—the public and the pensioners Among the latter was a Nobleman, a relative of whom had told him (Mr. Hall) that the Isiah of that Noble Lord was to have the subject fully and fairly investigated, and that he should not consider the Object satisfactorily inquired into unless the Hon. and Learned Member for Southwark were on the Committee. Hear, bear.) He (Mr. Hall) was quite sure that if that lion. and Learned Gentleman were not nominated the object of his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer would at once be defeated. In taking the appointment of the Committee out of the hands of the Hon. and Learned Mem ber, his Right Hon. Friend stated that be was anxious to take the whole responsibility of it upon himself. He (Mr. Hall) thought it was desirable that the Government should stand in that responsible situation; but he also was of opinion that at the time Lis Right Hon. Friend took upon himself that re sponsibility, he ought to have stated that it was not the inten tion of the Government to place the name of the lion. and Learned Member on the list. Certain documents having ap- Fared in a public print, he felt justified in adverting to them. They consisted of a letter addressed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the Hon. and Learned Member for Southwark, and of- that Hon. and Learned Member's reply. ( Mr. Hall) should say that the statement made by his Right Hon. Friend bad been answered in a manner in which he should conceive every Hon. Gentleman would have answered it. If any proposition had been made to him (Mr. Hall) to be on the Committee, but in order to be so it must be a sine qua non that he should forego any right or privilege—( Hear, hear)— which he believed that as a Member of Parliament he pos sessessed, he would not have consented to be on that Com mittee.—( Hcar, hear.) He used the words " right or pri v:lege," because it was a fact that what the Hon. and Learned Mernber for Southwark had on a former occasion done had received the approbation and sanction of the House of Commons.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Hall) did not mean to say that the course pursued by the lion. and Learned Member on the occasion alluded to was that course which he himself should have adopted—( Hear, hear)—still it was a course which was, be repeated, afterwards sanctioned by the House itself. All that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman did was to publish the evidence taken before the Poor-law Com mittee, of which he was a member, from day to day. He (Mr. Hall) would ask, was there anything which could prevent that Hon. and Learned Gentleman pursuing the same cours e with respect to the present Committee, bah-steer he was a member of it or not? Whether a member or no member, he would have the same means of information, unless, indeed, it was intended to make it a Secret Committee. He would have equal access to the Committee room ; and what power did the House possess by which to prevent him from making public that which he there beard ? But this was a point of very minor consideration. The main question was, whether the House would give finality to the inquiry. into the Pension List. If any question ought to be final--considered kith a view of satisfying the public—it was this question, which involved the ascertaining of facts as they really were, but which AS they we re supposed to be at present, and without inquiry, were odious in the eyes of the public. But no satisfactory in quiry could take place, not only unless the fullest investiga tion were allowed, but unless also the Hon. and Learned I Member, whose name was associated in the minds of the peo ple with the subject of the Pension List, and whose determiea tion to enter into every abuse, and capability to direct such an investigation, were included in the Cemmittee. He (Mr. Hall) believed it was the invariable practice of Parliament, when any person had so devoted his time and talent to the consideration of a subject as to lead to the appointment of a Committee, that such person should be placed on the Commit tee. This was a practice not merely founded in courtesy, but was also grounded upon wisdom. It was grounded upon wisdom, because it was natural to conclude that any person possessing the information which the devotion of time and THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, DECEMBER 19, 1837. attention to any subject must acquire, would be able to afford very essential assistance to the Committee. If ever there was an instance where this rnle of the House should be de parted from, he thought this was the very last in which it should be so. It would be perfectly useless—he might almost say faithless, if the name of the lion. and Learned Gentle man were not placed upon this Committee if, therefore, it was the Hon. Baronet's intention to move that this question should take precedence of the other Orders of the Day, he (Mr. H•dl) should give him his support. After a few words from Mr. HUME, which were not au dible in the gallery, The CHANCELLOR of the Exchequer said, I have a choice between two difficulties—one is the interruption of the progress of the Civil List Bill, by the motion introduced by the Honourable Member for Caithness to suspend the third reading of the Bill, when undoubtedly, at the present period of the year it could not be suspended but at very considerable ieconvenienee. If, indeed, we were now on the motion for the third reading of that Bill, there might be some reason for taking this question of pensions first, but my Hon. Friend, the Member for the City of London, has given a notice on the third reading of the Civil List Bill which will give rise to a debate ; therefore, to postpone that third reading beyond to morrow night may amount to an undefined and inconvenient postponement. 1 have said that lam perfectly ready to abide the pleasure of the House upon the decision of to-morrow night. Nobody can expect that this Committee should sit More the holidays. If the House should decide that the names to be proposed should be printed before voted upon, I should be perfectly ready to give in the names. Nay, I should be perfectly ready to give in those names to-night._ ( Hear, hear, and cries of " Name, name.)" I under stood from gentlemen on all sides, that what they were de sirous of was, the being in the possession of the names twenty four hours.—( Cries of " No, no.") That certainly was the suggestion.-_( No.) Gentlemen may change their minds now, but the request I had to ,encounter originally was, that the House ought to know the names beforehand. But I have no difficulty in sayinr , that I am ready to give the names now, and let us have the cLussion —(Name, name.) I wish to know in the outset what Hon. Gentlemen would have. I understand they wish to have notice of the names on the one hand—(No, no)—and to have a discussion on the other, These two pro positions are by no means the same ; but if it be the pleasure of the House to come to a discussion now—( Hear, hear)—and to throw overboard the question of giving informstion as to the names—( Hear, hear, hear)—if that be the case, unquestionably I shall lose more time with respect to the Civil List Act by a fruitless discussion now, than by proceeding at once to that which the House desires; therefore I have no objection to the Order of the Day for appointing of the Committee being read —(Hear, hear)—but do not let it be said that I have taken Hon. Gentlemen by surprise.—( Laughter. ) The motion for the Order of the Day for a Committee of Supply was then withdrawn, and the Order of the Day for no minating the Committee on pensions was agreed to. PENSIONS. The CHANCELLOR of EXCHEQUER—Now that the Order of the Day has been read, I will proceed to the duty of naming the Committee--( Hear, and a laugh.) I hope that the gentleman who cheer are not among the gentlemen that arc prepared to support the Hon. Member for Kil kenny to-morrow; because if that motion—namely, that every Member intending to propose the names of Members to serve in a Select Committee shall, on the day next bef.re such nomination of Members, place among the notices for the day the names of tie Members intended to be proposed as Members of the said Committee—if, I say, that motion be rounded in reason, there would be nothing so unjust as for me to be compelled to take the House now by surprise, when I have proposed to give the House full information of the names, that they may be compared with those of a former Committee, is order that Hon. Members might. aseer ta;rt whether they were the names that ought to be put en this Committee or not. The notice given by the Hon. Member for Caithness ( Sir George Sinclair) embraced two objects—one the inserting the name of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Southwark, and the other the insertion of a majority of names on the Committee of Gentlemen who had in former times voted for an inquiry into the pension List. I shall divide my observations in re spect to these two propositions. Upon the second proposi tion I ant happy to announce that the majority of the names en the proposed Committee consists of gentlemen who voted against the Goeernment on former occasions, and in favour of inquiry. —( Hear, hear.) So far the object of the Honourable Baronet is answered, and as far as that goes every pledge is given of the sincerity of the Crown in carrying on the inquiry. With respect to the second, or rather the other object, from the statement of my Noble Friend it will be anticipated by the House that the answer must be of a contrary description. I will not attribute to gentlemen opposite who oppose this in quiry any intention that could be so disingenuous as to endea vour to make this inquiry in i:s progress odious, distasteful, and hateful to the best feelings of the great mass of the com e munity, by supporting a proposition that could tend to deprive, the country of any advantage that otherwise might accrue from this inquiry.—( Hear, hear.) I should be very reluctant indeed to have it imagined that I could consider the insertion of the name of any Honourable Gentleman on this Committee could have any such tendeney. On the contrary, I say, boldly and unreservedly, it was my desire, my anxious desire, that the Honourable and Learned Gentleman -( Mr. Harvey ) should be a member of this Committee ; and I feel, as my Honourable Friend has stated, that unquestionably one who has paid attention to the subject as be has done, and brought the subject cinder the attention of Parliament was a person whose name must naturally suggest itself as one to be proposed foif this inquiry ; and any opposition to the name of such a person would be the very circum stance which would deprive the inquiry and the recom mendation of the Committee of their force and weight. But, Sir, what arc the regulations of this House, and what are the orders of the House? Ia the first place, any indivi dual moving to appoint a Committee is required to communi cate with the individuals whose names he wishes to suggest to the House. It was consequently my duty to communicate with the Members whose names I wished to propose. It oc curred to me that the best course I could adopt was to.select the identical Committee which had already tat upon the Civil List. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Harvey) having originally proposed to refer, by way of instruction to that Committee, this very subject of the Pension List, it cer tainly did appear to me that the most obvious course for me to take would be the re-appointment of that Committee. I accordingly communicated with the gentlemen who served on that Committee. On the part of several Hon. Gentlemen sitting opposite, I found objections to become members of the proposed Committee. They said they objected to it upon principles. I was then driven to appoint a new Committee. One of the first names which occurcd to me was the name of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (11r. Harvey), and I took the liberty of addrese'ng to him a letter, which I will now read to the House. " Mr. Spring Rice presents his compliments to Mr. Har vey, and is led to troubl e hi m w ith th e p resen t communica tion. in consequence of the motion for appointing a Committee on pensions, which Mr. Spring Rice intends to bring on. " From the interest which Mr. Harvey has taken in this subject, and the attention which he has paid to it, Mr. Har vey's name would naturally occur to any person selecting the members of that Committee. But Mr. Spring Rice trusts Mr. Harvey will excuse him if, before he makes such a propo sition to the House, he solicits information from Mr. Harvey on a question most essential to the future proceedings of that Committee, if it shall be named by the House. In the Committee of the Poor Laws, appointed last ses. sion, Mr. Harvey communicated to the public, from day to day, the evidence and the proceedings of the Committee, even before they were reported to the House. Mr. Spring Rice does not raise the question whether such a course was, in that instance, parliamentary or convenient ; but it is evident that where the private affairs, character, and service of individuals may be made matters of deliberation and inquiry, that publica tion of such evidence in any way but in the authentic form of a report, and of communication to the House itself, would be unjust and inconveinent... .." Mr. Spring Rice fully anticipates that Mr. Harvey will concur in these opinions, from his observations respecting the duty of such a Committee, and the mode and spirit in which its inquiries should be directed. But, to avoid_ any difference of opinion or miztakc hereafter, Mr. Spring Rice will be much indebted to Mr. Harvey, if he will do him the favour of let ting him know whether, if appointed a member of the Com mittee, he adopts, and will assist the Committee in adhering to the principles laid down in this note. " Downing-street, Thursday evening." —( Ilear, hear.) I put it to the House whether there is any word in this note that betokens any want of courtesy or re spect to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ?—( Low! cheers.) On the contrary, it will be seen that I endeavoured anxiously to save paining any self-love or affection far by-gone opinions which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman might have enter tained. I did not raise the question whether the course adopted by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was Parliamentary or convenient; but I said to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that in the peculiarity of this case, and in the particular cir cumstances under which the Committee is moved, and under the declarations which the House itself had made in reference to proceedings of Committees, you can have No hesitation in giving me the assurance which I have taken the liberty of asking. And what was that assurance? Let this be dis tinctly understood, for I know it has been said cut of doors that it was presumption on my part to ask any Hon. Member for such an assurance. What, then, did I ask ? Why, I asked additional security that the orders of the HOMO of Com mons should be strictly adhered to. If I undertook the re sponsibility of suggesting the names of this Comn.ittee, I was bound also to take upon me the accompany ing responsibility of seeing that the Orders of the House should be carried into full and effectual operation. I will now read the answer of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, just premising that when he acid e that ought t that this to be carried iswasane o enquiry of with faithfulness,ofaparticul particular character, and one the parties i n t ereste d as to the pu b l i c, I rea ll y did think as well that there could not be a doubt as to the answer the lion. and Learned Gentleman would give. This.was the answer : " Strand, Friday Morning. " Sir,—Regarding, as I do, the right of publishing the proceedings before Parliamentary Committees to be of the greatest public importance, I cannut consent to place its exer cise in abeyance, as the condition of being placed upon a Com mittee. I readily acknowledge that circumstances may arise which would render such publication not only undesirable, but extremely unjust towards individuals ; but I must claim the unfettered exercise of my own judgment in all cases—(Hear) —arid which, I may Le allowed to remark, is not likely, I trust, to be in a direction lets just or considerate than that of persons equally disinterested as myself. " D. W. HARVEY." Now, let me bring the House to a consideration of this letter iwile:, ;:umpa ,, A with their own resolution. The rcgolutiun entered into on the 26th of April was this:—" That according to the undoubted privileges of this House, and from the due protection of the public interest, the evidence taken by any Select Committee of this House, and the documents presented to such Committee, and which have not been reported to the House, ought not to be published by any Member of such Committee, or by any other person." Here is your resolu tion, which says that a certain thing ought not to be done; and here is an Honourable Member of the House who de clares, and who claims it as a right and privilege to do that thing.—( Hear.) I have to ask that this may be decided be tween the House and the assumed privilege of a Member.— ( Hear.) Let the House step Hear.) I have no favour to solicit. lam told indeed of the majority on the other side of the House. I care not. I say here is a gentleman avow ing his intention to violate tire rules of the House.—( Cries of " No, no !" and hear.) The Honourable and Learned Gen tleman is claiming, as a right and privilege, that which the House has decided to be a breach of privilege. If I am guilty in giving a preference to the Orders of the House over the claim of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, I e the House so decide.—(Hear, hear.) If • the House prefer his letter to my letter—his oliniotts to mine—be it so. It is not a question between him and me. De not let the house think it is. It is a question between. their own resolu tion and a single Member of Parliament, who rising in his place says, I claim that which, as a privilege, you (the House) say is not a privilege. But I wish again to tell the House, that if the Hon. Gentleman will at the present moment get up and say that he will abide by the Orders of the House, I have no kind of objection, on the contrary. I am bound to move myself the insertion of his name.—( Hear, hear.) If he refuse, why, although I know of no such question having arisen before, yet I think the House of Commons will not consent to place a Member on a Committee who refuses to declare his determination to abide by the resolutions of the House.—( Hear, hear ) Where, I ask, will this end, if the practice once begins ? It will not be limited to Committees, but will run through the whole of your proceedings—( Hear, hear.) Does the Hon. Member foe Bridport mean to make aste paper of ail the Orders of this House? He may enter tain some high and fanciful notions as to introducing new re gulations for our proceedings, but that one singlet Member is to set aside all the most solemn and recorded decisions of the [louse of Commons can hardly be within even that Hon. Gentleman's contemplation.—(Hear, bean ) The Right Hon. Gentleman repeated his readiness to name Mr. Harvey, if he would pledge himself to abide by the decision of the House, but if the House without such a pledge, should have placed the Honourable and Learned Gentleman on the Committee, the responsibility would rest with them and not with him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), whatsoe rer might be the con sequences. I have argued this question (said the Right Hon. Geetlernatt) on general principles. If it were a Committee upon the combination laws, or upon the state of the factories, or of the London Docks, the principles I have laid down are right, and those which it behoves the House to act upon ; be cause it behoves them to enforce their own regulations. But I beg to say one word with respect to the peculiarity of this inquiry. I will not be induced by any taunts of the Hon. Gentleman op pes:te with respect to the course Lhave now taken, as com pared with the course I have previously taken, to go one point beyond the single subject matter now under discussion. - But every Gentleman, whether he argue in favour of inquiry or against inquiry, must be aware—and I cannot appeal to au authority whose words were more strong or more powerful on this point than those of the Hon.. and Learned Gentleman himself—that this inquiry is of a peculiar character; that it may involve private character, private fortune, service ren dered, and all manner of diselosurcs—disclosures, however, that I hold to be necessary under the exigency of the present case.—( Hear, hear! ar.d laughter from the Opposition Benches. I give the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Oxford (Mr. Maclean) full credit for that cheer. I ask him, are there not circumstances that may be inqui-ed into of the character which I have described ? Then what be comes of his cheer ? It does not tell against my argument. On the contrary it supports my argument. Then, I put it, if the proceedings of this Committee, before they report, arc made known through the daily journals, if a charge is broughs against an individual of having received a pension unjustly, and under circumstances which would not justify its continuance, if such evidence as this were made known to the world on Monday, and were to remain without contradiction until Sa turday, are you prepared—above all, are you who oppose all inquiry prepared to inflict upon that individual this additional pain of publicity, to the pain which un uncontradicted rumour, an unfounded charge, perhaps, may have already brought upon him : I say that it is not just. If such a publics tion were right with respect to every other description of in quiry, it would not be right with respect to one of this pe culiar character. It is on these grounds—first looking, generally to the law and regulations of Parliament, and next looking at the particular case which is before me—that without obtaining the pledge of the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman, I do not feel warranted in putting his name upon the Committee. Let hint give that pledge now—(" No, no")-- and I shall be ready to vote for him.—('• No, no.") Or let him say he will not give that pledge, and then vote for him if ou will ; I cannot.—(Hear, hear.) This is the alternative. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman says himself, in his answer to my letter, that " circumstances may arise which would render such a publication inexpedient and unjust to individuals, but he reserves to himself the full power of exercising his own judgment in all cases." Now, Ido not wish to leave to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the power to comment upon the Orders of the House of Commons. All I ask is that he will engage to adhere to them. I shall now take the liberty to read the names which, of course, do not include the name of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. They are Lord John Russell, Mr. Grote (who voted for a previous in quiry), Mr. Bannerman (who ♦oted for a previous inquiry), Mr. Plumptre (who voted for a previous inquiry), Mr. Hume (who voted for a previous inquiry), Mr. Sanford, Mr. Hawes (who voted for a previous inquiry), Mr. William Evans (who was not then in Parliament), Mr. Pen darves (who voted for a previous inquiry), Sir Eardley Wilmot, Mr. Handley (who voted for a previous inquiry), Lord Ebrington, Mr. Rickford (who voted for a previous in quiry), Mr. Strutt, Mr. M'Leod, Mr. Goddard, Mr. Phill i..otts, Mr. George Evens, Mr. Villiers Steuart (all of whom voted for a previous inquiry), and, if the House choose to no minate me, myself.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The majority of the gentlemen, therefore, whom he had named had, on former occasions, voted for inquiry and against the then Government, and it could not he said that he had not fairly adopted a mate rial part of one of the suggestions which had been made. ( Hear, bear.) Mr. HUME, before the proposed names were read from the chair, wished to remark that as the full number of twenty one was proposed, the House could not, consistently with its Standing Order, and the name of the Hon. Member for South wark without proceeding to the invidious task of rejecting one of the names mentioned by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed that it was open to any Hon. Member to move that the Com mittee should be increased Leyond the usual number. Sir GEORGE SINCLAIR could not being himself to ' the belief that great injustice would not be committed if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Southwark were omitted. He had given notice of the specific motion on this subject from the opinion which he entertained that the knowledge of this question possessed by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was very valuable, that his talent was great, and his sincerity most unquestionable. He ( Sir George Sin clair) thought that in the correspondence which had been read the Hon. and Learned Member was perfectly right ; he con ceived that the proper course to be pursued would be to ap point the Hon. Member; and if he should publish any of the evidence, and should thereby infringe the just privileges of the House, that the infringement should be brought distinctly before the House.—( Hear, hear.) Let it be stated by the Chairman of the Committee to that House that there had been an infraction of the law of Parliament by publishing the evidence, and he (Sir G. Sinclair) would he the first to rote that the offence should be severely visited.—(Hear.) But he did think it a very hard case that a condition or a sti pulation should be required of the Hon. Member which was not exacted of any other gentleman, and that the Hon. Gen tleman owed it to himself, to his own character, and to the situation which he filled as a Member of Parliament, not to accept an appointment upon the Committee under the pro posed condition.—(ll , ar.) Ho bad no objection to make to the names of the Hon. Gentlemen who were proposed to form part of the Committee. He thought that they were fairly chosen ; but he felt bound to observe that, if the name of the Hon. and Learned Member were omitted, the public at large, who took a deep interest in the question, would never be satis fied.—( Hear.) He should, therefore, move that the Com mittec should consist of twenty-two Members, and that the name of the Hon. and Learned Member for Southwark should . be added.—( Hear. ) Mr. E. L. Bueweri and Mr. AIACLUAN rose together, but the former having given way, - Mr. MACLEAN thought that it was important to come to a decision upon the present question, in wide!) the dignity and character of that House were deeply involved. The Noble Lord who had spoken in the early part of the evening upon this question had stated that his reason for object ing to the insertion of the Hon. and Learned Member's name was that on a former occasion he had transgressed the orders of the House : but if the Honourable Member had committed such a violation, why was he not brought to the bar of the House, or charged with the infringement in his place in Parliament ? The reason assigned was, that the Noble Lord had known many persons become almost political martyrs by opposing the privileges of Parliament ; and that it was not, therefore, prudent to bring the matter forward. If this were a good reason, of what use was the order of the House ? If it might be put at defiance with impunity, why did the House not repeal it ?—( Hear, hear.) If the Hon. and Learned Member should infringe any privilege of that House, the House was perfectly able to protect itself. The course taken by the Government was not consistent with the usage hitherto pursued. If he (Mr. Maclean) rightly under stood the argument of the Hon and Learned Member, it was this : " I will not enter into an agreement to preserre intact the privileges of the House, and which I contend may not prove to be privileges; if I violate any privilege of the House, you may proceed against me as you may against any other in dividual.—( Hear, hear.) If, in defying your orders, I corn mit any offence, you have the remedy in your own hands ; you may bring me to the bar, or you may tax me in my place, and you may then take the opinion of the House whether y e n" order be loon led in justice oc not." Another argument used against the appointment of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was, that during the investigation, a great deal of delicate evidence must beenade, and ii day by day the inquiries were publishes( to the world, and the facts were left uncontradieted, much injustice would be committed. But, even if this were 5 0, on the first occasion that a breach was committed, the Chairman of the Committee would come down to the House with redoubled force to - carrithe resolution into effect —.( Hear, hear)—because the publication would have taken place in direct defiance of their autliority.—(Hear, hear.) If ehe Hon. and Learned Member's name were not inserted, the inquiry would be a mere mockery. And if the House were not pre pared to vindicate its authority, they might burn their Order book.—( Hear, hear.) They would be laughed at out of doors; and if they ever brought any one to their bar for in fringement of their orders, would they not be answered, " You were afraid to touch Mr. Harvey, you could not justify your o•cn opinion, and you dare not arraign him, though you are willing to punish me."—( Hear. ) Lord E BRING TON agreed in the oeinion that for the sake of information the name of the Hon. Member for Southwark ought to be added, but whilst he agreed in this opinion, he must at the same time say that he thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex chequer had afforded to the house the fullest justifica tion for not putting the Hon. and Learned Member on the Committee: - The Honourable and Leerned Member for Oxford, and other Hon. Gentlemen, had said, put the Learned Gentleman upon the Cernmit'ee, and then if he 'tie late any privi'ege, g.ve to him the molt condign punishment ; but what would have been said if his Right Hon. Friend had pursued such; a course ?- Woeld it not havC been said that the Government had acted with treachery by putting the Hon. and Le lined Gentleman on the Committee, and thus. inducing him to commit the ranee which he knew well he would do e( Hear, hear),—and by then bringing him to the bar?—( Hear, hear ) Would not such a course have been considered most mean, aid would there not have been the strongest grounds for complaint ?—( Hear, hear.) They had been told that the House had a, high duty to discharge to itself; but they had also a duty to discharge to individuals. He had no wish to speak disrespectfully of the Hon-. Member for Southwark ; he had no right to impeach his discretion in that or any other case ; but, after the course which that Hon. Gen tleman had taken in- the Committee of the Poor-law, he, for one, could not consent to his being appointed a member of this Committee, to publish day by day its ex parte proceed ings.—( Hear, heir.) On these grounds he should vote for the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend, that the number of the Committee should be limited to 21. Lord CA STLE RE AG H said the House had consented to the inquiry into the Pension List, and to that inquiry the Hon. and -Learned Member for Southwark could bring more information than almost any other Member, and he (Lord Castlereagh) could not understand on what grounds it was that the Noble Lord refused to admit his mine. He saw no objection to the fullest inquiry into all the pensions. He feared no ill consequences from the most ample investiga tion, and he had opposed the original motion only from a principle of justice, that the House ought not to rip up old stories.—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) Was it the searching eye of the Hon. and Learned Member that the Government feared—did they dread his influence ? He (Lord Castlereagh) would ask them to let the public have the benefit of the powerful and searching and acute mind of the Honourable and Learned Member, and he for one thought that the Honourable Gentleman would do as much credit the Committee, and bring as large a supply of facts before l i them, as any Honourable Gentleman whom he saw on the benches opposite.—( Hear, and laughter.) Mr. WARBURTON said that if Hon. Members acted on the principle laid donn by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it would amount to a gene-al prescription of the - Hon. and Learned Member, nut from that Committee alone, but from every Select Committee.— ( Hear, hear.) Any Hon. Member might ask the same question as to any other inquiry ashich any Hon. Gentleman might institute, or the House might approve. It might be asked, " Do you intend, if you are placed on the Com mittee, to use the means which this may afford you, of pub lishing the proceedings in a newspaper, ?"—( Hear, hear.) And the same answer being given as in this ease, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would, as a matter of course, be ex cluded. Without meaning to cast any reflection on the Go vernment, he certainly thought that the course pursued was precisely the course which he should have himself taken if he had wished entirely to exclude the Hon. Gentleman from the Committee.—( Hear, hear.) If he thought that the Hen. and Learned Member was, as a men of honour, bound to give the answer which he had done.—( Cheers ) He had been asked by the Right Hon. Gentleman whether he would not obey the order of the House, and whether he would appoint on a Committee, as in this case, an Hon. 'Member who de• dared that he would not regard them. Now he had never known the House run a race with the newspapers relative to the publication of its proceedings in which it had not been beaten.--(Hear, hear.) He said, also, " Hear, hear I" He should like the Hon. Member who cried " Hear, hear!" to point out any period where the House was a gainer in such a contest. • Why, the publication of their debates, and of any portion of their proceedings, was an infringement of the Orders of the House committed every day; and he justified the publi cation and the infringement because they admitted more light on their proceedings. He had never known any good arise from any secret proceeding of that House.—( Hear, hear.) He had never known anything pass even in what was called a Secret Committee which might not hare been proclaimed without injury at Charing-cross.—(Hear, hear.) He recol lected perfectly well that on one occasion, when a debate took place in that House with closed doors, his Hon. Friend the Member for Kilkenny and himself made the best report which they could ; it appeared in the newspapers on the following morning; his Hon. Friend and himself had been called to account ; they had confessed themselves the reporters ; and on the same principle that they now asked the Hon. and Learned Member, " Will you agree not to publish the evi dence before a Committee ?" the House ought to have punished him (M-. Warburton) for publishing the debate, and they might have excluded his Hon. Friend and himself from the House unless they would promise not again to infringe the Standing Order of the House against publishing a debate which took place with closed doors, and furnishing it to the newspapers.—( Hear, hear.) He could look upon the present proceeding only in the light of an idle and foolish attempt to shut out the daylight.--( Hear, hear.) He looked upon the proposal to exclude his Hon. and Learned Friend from the Committee as unjust to the public. He (Mr. Warburton) could not see any mischief which could arise from his nomina tion, and his exclusion would give great dissatisfaction to the public, who would think that they were not fairly dealt with. Sir ROBERT PE EL need not repeat what he had before stated, that he entirely dissented from the course taken by her Majesty's Government in consenting to the nomination of this Committee ; he still thought that the inquiry was most unjust, and that if it had been entered upon at all—if the responsible advisets of the Crown at the termination of the arrangements theretofore existing, caused by the demise of his late Majesty, kad advised an inquiry—it ought to have been undertaken by the Crown itself, for he was convinced that the Government ought to take all the responsibility devolving upon them.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It would hare been infi nitely better that the Government should have performed this duty, if duty they conceived it to be ; but if, as the Noble Lord had stated at the beginning of the Session, the respon sible advisers of the Crown were not disposed to originate an inquiry, he did think that it was their duty to have resisted it.—(Hear.) Either of these courses would have been in finitely better for the dignity and prerogative of the Crown —( Hear)--and even if they had not been able to, have of fered an effectual resistance to inquiry by a Committee, he thought that they ought to have allowed it to have been the act of the House of Commons itself—(Hear e hear)—and that it ought not to have been adopted by that House on the advice of her Majesty's Minkers.—( Hear.) He entertained such strong objections upon principle to the course which had been adop ted, that he had himself declined to act upon the Committee; and though cn other occasions, even after he had entertained doubts upon the propriety of the appointment of any Com mittee, if the sense of the House appeared to be in favour of it, and if a mere matter of policy were involved in the in quiry, he had never declined to serve ; but where, as in this case, a point of justice intervened, he had felt it imperative upon him to decline taking any part in the labours of the Corn mittee.--( Hear.) He had declined in his own case to take upon himself any responsibility in this matter, and the ques tion now was, whether he should transfer this responsibility by suggesting the nomination of any other Members of the Com mittee—wether he should vote for the insertion of any other Hon. Member's name. 'This was a question oa which he should be very much inclined, if he thought it consistent with his character of a representative to adopt such a course, not to give a vote ; but he held that such was a most shabby pro ceeding, and there were but few cases which justified a re tirement from the House without voting.—(Hear.) He could not reconcile it with his duty to evade the responsibility of saying aye or no to the present question ; and he declared, without hesitation, that he should vote against tile amendment 'roved by his Hon. Friend the Member for Caithness ( Sir G. Sinclair). He found that' out of the twenty-one suggested members fifteen were from that (the Ministerial) side of the House, and only six from his own supporters. Of this ho made no complaint —he cared not for the proportion of mem bers from one side or the other ; but he adopted the broad principle of avoiding the suggestion of any name. When he (Sir R. P el) considered the nature of the inquiries which must take place before the present Committee, when he re collected the course which the lion Gentleman had taken in the Poor-law Committee —when he understood that he in tended to pursue the same course—when he refused to be bound by the usual regulations of that House—when he declared his intention of altering the object of a Select Committee-- when he asserted his right to select any cases which he might deem proper, to choose a particular newspaper, and to place day by day before the public the state of the' in ,uiry, before an explanation could be given, he (Sir R. Peel) did think that there were ether grounds besides those stated by the Right lion. Gentleman, why the name of the Hon. and Learned Member ought. not to be added to the Committee. The lion. M em b er f ur Marylebone had, indeed, stated that the House could not prevent the evesioa by the Hon. and Learned Member for Southwark of his non-appointment on the Committee, fat that every Member of the House had a right to attend, though not to vote, on every Committee which the House might appoint. But it was said that the Hon. Member might be present, and could publish the pro ceedings. The Hon. Member might do SO possibly, and there would be a difficulty in preventing it ; but, then, there was a difference bet weett tolerating what he could not prevent, aid his being a party to the sanction of that act which he disap proved of. Hence what he was to look for wvs the best manner of administering impartial justice, and enforcing the regulations of that House ; and if he failed in accomplishing these objects, he should at least have the satisfaction of know ing that hu had endeavour:d to do his best. The Hon. Gen tleelan the Member for Southwark, he was sure, would acquit him of any intention of saying any thing disrespectful towards him ; but, as the proposition was forced on him, he told the Honourable Gentleman fairly, that he must refuse to concur in his appointment upon such a Committee ; and simply for this reason, that he had heard him express opiniors with respect to the principles upon which such an inquiry ought to be conducted; he - bad beard that Honourable Gen tleman throw such suspicions upon the motives which influenced the grants in these eases, he had heard him indulge in such sarcasms upon the persons to whom these pensions were paid, that it was actually impossible for him in any manner to incur the responsibility of hijappointment upon any such Commit tee.—(llcar.) He said, too, most distinctly, that he would oppose the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman being placed upon the Committee. When he considered that females of high birth and gr,:at amiability wore liable to be brought be fore that Committee,.he could not, after the speechet that had been made, and the suspicions cast out, take upon him.7elf the responsibility of concur,ing in that Honourable Gentle:lan's appointment. Mr. II UM E remarked that the Rieiit man objetred to the appointment of the lion. Me,:lber for Southwark on acconnt of the speeches he had made with re gard to the Pension List. Now he Might be objected to also; for that Honourable Gentleman had rv.t.stated a single opinion upon this subject in which he ( Mr. Hume) did not most fully concur ; and that Honourable Gentleman had even male concessions with regard to the subject which he would nut be inantd to make. Sir R. PEEL sad that if the name of the lion. GL. otto man the Member for Kilkenny were propsed to be placed on the same Committee he ;:could have resi,t,l —( Laughier. A t present, l o wever, the objection was merely to the nomina tion of the Hon. Member Member for S Ile ob jected, however, to undertake any reqoasibility in the Iliad oation of the Committee. He hail said ilia objection to the 'nomination of the Hon. Member for Southw rh iesfed upon the principle on which lie sought to have tiie inquiry con deeted. That lion. Gentleman had expressed a strong opi nion as to applying the same rules which were adopted under the Poor Law to the persons whose nam..s wee on the Pen sion List,• and while doing this they had bcarl sarcasms and persona allut , ions from the lion. Gentleman, which every one of Ahem must rei ollect ; there was, too, someih'ng in the tone and manner of the Hon.• Gentleman which Wa3 quite as signi ficant as ilia expressions.—(Hear, hear.) When, then, he recollected that tone and manner, and considered the apt eches he had made, and the parties that were to he bef,re the Com mittee, he could not vote for the Hon Gentleman. Mr. M. A TTWOOD did not consider that the Right Hon. Gentleman had made oat a suarient els:3 to ju%ti:% . -Gat in oppo-iag the appointment of the Hon. Member fur :...ineth wark on the ,Committee. The tone and minner of an Hon. Member in addressing that House could never, in his opinion, be a suffickntiy strong reason for excluding him from a Com _ _ Lord HOWICK observed that it rested with the Hon. Member for Southwark, and it rested only with the Hon. Member himself, to say whether he was or was not a proper person to be placed upon a Committee, and especially iu such a case as this.—( Hear.) What were the circumstances under which they were called upon to make a decision ? The Houee had determined, and is his opinion they had deter mined most properly, .that evidence until reported to that 'House by the Select Committee appointed to receive it should not be published by any member of that Committee, or by any other person. It was not, as the Honourable and Learned Member for Oxford supposed, a mere question as to the time at which the publication was to take place, but it was a question whether evidence not reported to the House should be published by any member of a Committee.—( Hear.) He appealed to every gentleman in the habit of sitting on Committees whether one of the ques tions most frequently discussed by them was not this, whe ther particular evidence was or was not fit fur publication ? Ile saw then an Hon. Baronet ( Sir W. Molcsworth) sitting neat to the Hon. Member for Southwark. That Hon. Baro net, he was sure, could not have forgotten that lest year, when be was Chairman of the Select Committee see Transportation, a great d al of evidence had been given a hied' it was the una nimous opinion of that CoMmittee was not fit for publication ; and before they agreed upon the reported evidence to the House they struck out of it the portions be referred to from the minutes of the Committee.—( Hear, hear.) What then was the pretension set up ley the Hon. Gentlemao? It was t'tis. The question restel with the discretion of the Commit tee to decide as to publication. That was a very nice and a very delicate question to . determine. Evidence might then come before the Committee, and if a majority cf that Committee pronounced against publication, and the Ho nourable Member for Southwark eat on the Committee, he by his sole will and determtnetioa had the power cf overruling the decision of the Committee.—(Hoer.) And whereas the twenty-nue Members proposed by his Right lion. Friend might say, " This or that evidence is n 4 en the whole desirable to publish," yet the Hon. !earlier for South wark could say, " You may decide as you please—you twenty one Members may so determine, and your judgment iney be very good; but in spite of the resoluden you have unani mously come to, and in defiance of the rules of the House that evidence is not to be published which you do not sanction, in spite of all that I think the evidence ought to be published, and it shall appear in the newspapers to-morrow in despite of your opposition."—( Hear.) The 110:1. Member might not use that which he seemed to consider was his privilege to that extent; but neither to that Honourable Member nor any other Member could he think of giving a discr lion and a power of overruling the decision of the majority of every Committee of which he chaiced to be a Memlor.—( Hear.) The deci sion of the majority, in his opinion, ought to be binding.— ( Hear.) He must say with the Right Hoe. Baronet oppo site this much with respect to the speeches of the Honourable Member for Southware, that, without wishing to sly anything disrespectful of him, they proved that he at least was not a fit person with whom to leave such a r'iscretionary power. The House, too, must not forget that there were many cir cumstances which made this question, at the present moment, of peculiar importance. Hon. Gentlemen could hardly have forgotten the question of their right to protect publications printed under their authority. Ire all the discussions upon that point it was declared to be of the utmost importance that their Committees should exercise a sound discretion as to what questions were proposed and what evidence was received by them, in order that they might avoid as much as possible doing an injury to private individuals. If, then, they put that responsibility on the Committee, were they to allow iadivi duals in opposition to the Committee, and in spite of their rules, to publish that evidence, the publication of which they might desire to avoid ?—( Hear, hear.) lie agreed as to the importance of maintaining a rule unanimously affirmed by the House last year. He concurred, too, with the Right Honour able Baronet that there was a great distii.c ion in placing an Hon. Member on a Committee, and in avowing his determine tion to violate the rules of the House (.which he thought the means could be found of preventing), and not controlling him in taking advantage of what he considered to be his privilege in publishing the evidence given before the Committee. But the Hon. Member affirmed that he would not consent to obey the rules of that House—he even told the House he would violate them. The Honourable Member for Bridport bad in deed said that thsy had always got the worst in all their at tempts to coatroul publication. With respect to the debates in that House he agreed that all attempts to prevent their publication had been, and ought to have been, defeated. But with respect to the proceedings before their Select Com mittee the case was very different.—( Hear, hear.) Having, in the course of his duties, served upon several of those Com mittees, he could say that it was, from his experience, a mat ter of considerable importance that a sound discretion should be exercised in not publishing evidence given before Com mittees. He would, before sitting down, remark upon the un fortunate proofs which a Noble Lord opposite (Lord Castle rengh) had afforded them of his indisposition to give a factions vote; for he had unfortunately come down with a prepared speech—(laughter)--a speech prepared for his c +se, which he was aware of—of their unwillingness to place the Honourable Member for Southwark on the Committee, but which was not at all suited to meet the reason that they assigned for it— namely, that the lien. Member would not be bound by the re solutions of the House. —( Hear, hear, hear.) Let the Hon. Member crow say distinctly in his place that he would be bound by them.—(Cries of " No, no," from Mr. Harvey and others.) It was, he considered, do impeachment upon the honour of any Gentleman to declare that he would be bound by the rules of the House, unanimously agreed te. If lie would d so the Right [ion. the Chancellor of the Exchequer would move that be be placed upon the Committee. Lord CASTLEREAGH considered that at the end of the Noble Lord's obse.vations an unwarrahtaale sllusion had been made to him. He assured the• Noble Lord that lie did not Come down to that House with a prepared speech. lie hoped the Noble Lord could say the same thing.—(Laughter.) The Noble Lord was incorrect its another instance, for it so hap pened that he was quite aware of the subject of debate, and was apprised of the intention of the Hoe. Member for South wark to publish whatever might be debated in Committee. Now he, in his simplicity of mind, thought the House of Commons could correct that error in the lioneurable Member for Southwark, while at the same time his (Lord Cestlereagh's) wish was to expose to the public the plan adopted by her Ma jesty's Government, and who, while irretending to court in quiry into the Pension List, adopted the very best means they could think of of covering it over, and sheltering it from ob servation.--( Cheere from Opposition M+ mbcss, with cries of " Spoke, spoke," from Members on the Ministesial benches.) He had risen to explain, and he could not now sit down without congratulating the Noble Lord on having entirely raisrep:e. seated his sentiments. Lord HO WICK rernrrked that the Noble Lord's explana tion left the matter considerably more obscure than it hid been before.—(Liughter.) An HON. Memeee considered the Right lion. Baron: t the Member for Tamworth had'very properly refused to 114ic any share in the responsibility of the noinieetion of the Commit tee. Now, though he approved or the course %%Ilia the Right Hon. Gentleman was disposed to adopt, yet for ilherelf he must say, that he would take what the Right Hon Gentle man had designated the " shabby" course, by not voting at ail upon this question. Mr. WA K LEY had, he said, listened whit very groat at tention to the debate, and he confessed he was not a little puzzled to discover the proper conclusion which he ought to draw from the observations that had been made. The right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had informed the Heise that at the very outset the name of the lion. Niernhes for Southwark suggested itself us the fi-st that should placed on the Committee; then the R'glit ll:mourable man observed that the Honourable U • ntleman la l made a speech which would induce him to be adverse to his nomi nation; and then the Noble Lord the Secretary at War had informed the House that her Mjestv's Gov , rnment consi dered that from the expressions used by the lienourable Gentleman it would be in the highest degree inexoedient to have such a pees_: en the C o nienittee.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hen. Baronet the Member for Taroworth acknoly ledged very frankly that the line of ex-mination likely to be adopted by the Hon. M ember for Southwatk would render it impossible fur him to giee .his consent to place that , lion. , Gentlemen cn t he C ommittee. Now he (Mr. Wakley) said l that it he coul d believe thet such a mode of examination I would be adopted by the lion. Member for Southwark as that which they had a precedent fur under the grinding principles of the new Poor-taw, he never would vote for the infroluetion of the lion. Member f..r South:York amongst the Members cf the Committee.—(Hear.) He never could be guilty of the &Ole injustice of sexing what was practised