The Sun. — London, England, 1812-04-25 00:00:00

I-0;0es whifli ziffl.6 the Catholics of Ireland Are we to act, in this momentous question, upon the leport i a Sel..! , :t Committe-e,? Mr. GRATTA roc to sta+e, that according to the rules of the House it would be a Gituthittee of the whole House. Mr. Pairca.vAr----Well then, we are now told dig,- tinetly, than it is .4 Committee of the whole House . which is moved for; and I have no hesita:ion in Saying that this is, in every respeCt, more desirable than a SeleetCommittee: But, Sir, are we not to krrow what we have to do when we gointo that Com mittee ?—iktre we not to he - told what duties we shall have to perform ?—Are we to ) examine wit nesses at our bar, to ascertain what are the opinions, what 'the doctrines, and what ahe peculiar tenets - of the Roman. Catholic religion ?' A Right Hon. Gent; Who spoke in the debate, seemed ;write to think that we were to have evidence. What,! call to your bar witnesses to depose their own evidence about the notions entertained by the Roman Catho lic Clergy and Laity. IS that the sort of thing for which we are to go into a Committee ? Or, if • that be not, what is it ? I really wish that any of those Gentlemen who are so eager to vote for this Committee, would tell me what will be its labours. .1 am in the dark about them ; so I believe is the whole, House ; and they who vote for the motion will give a sort of blind vote, nor knowing the pre cise and definite obje& at which they are air - ling.— This obscurity, indeed, will •have one good effect, those votes will be in its favour which would proba bly 'be withheld it all were clear and distin6t. Ido not mean to say that this is not good parliamentry ta6lics, for it serves to catch votes thatiwould of her.wise be lest. Now with regard to granting the prayer of the Ca tholics, the House is pretty well united in .the feel ing, that their prayer cannot be granted without con ditions, without guards,' and without securities of some sort. The matter is to be considered either as a question of religion, of right, or of expediency. As to tel I would leave it altogether out. of m y view; and I deny Wrongly that it is a question pf right, and , in this denial most of those who have argtied upon the subjeal, either now or on former nights, concur. That which is purely the creature of society, thief which springs out of social institu tions, ,odice, , and emoluments, can never.be ,a mat ter of inherent right ; no man can have any orijoal or primitive claim upon them. It remains these fore, to be considered as 'a measure of policy or expediency ; and the'fair question is, whether there be a :y rational ground of danger in conceding What the Catholic: derailed.' In•the first place, it may be c nsisler d" very natural in those Who live under an estab ishment which till now, has always been called, and always 'thought a Protestant one, should feel a little jealousy in removing 'those securities, all those proterlions. which have been frame:l for the _safety of that establishment. An Hon. Gentleman, indeed has said, that it is not now a Protestant esta blishment, -for it ceased to be such when the con cessions were tnade to the Catholics in 1793 ; but this is an arginnent, which I confess I am:Unable to We are a •Pretestant House of• Parliament, we have a Protestant Establishment, and a Pro testant King, and the' proposition now is, to Ro - nair C.-itholie:4, contrary to law, con : - till to those-securities which the wisdom of Our ancest-r• provided, contrary_ to the spirit of the Cons int- ion, into an equal participati-n of Civil and political rights. Here, then, in my apprea hensien, is the &intl . which the Gentlemen on the opposite side call upon us to show, as attendant neon tli. measure of Catholic Emancipation at the plestrit motnent. That there is some danger, even the avowed supporters of the measure .are ready to • the party to which they belong espouse the same opinions upon the subject as Lord Grenville, and what. those 'opinions are we all know, for he his published' them to the world. He declares, in tl!e.iseek alluded to, that some guards, some se curities, are necessary ; and 1 do not meats to say that the'Neh:e•Lord has altered his opinion, -for, frem all that I can collect, - he still requites the same conditions—the same terms. Why then do not they, in ,idmitting the'necessity of securities, the ex istence of danger ! And why do theythen call upon us to 'spew where the danger is ? lam very sure the Right Hon. Gentleman himself would not ;xis!) to yield to the prayer of the Roman Catholics, with out so ne terms and conditions being imposed : and I t,,itik it but reasonable to ask what those terms a , e ? What am I told; :however ? That it those terms be ex twined, if those Securities -he investi gated, if those gnards• be deliberately viewed and ascertained, the Roman Catholics will be offended. Will, if then they are to be hurried through the House without exatninxion, they had better be re- Sr I ed secre=ly till the third reading of the Bill, and then tacked to it by way of rider, 'to prevent those unpleasant Veservations upon them. In fact, Sir, no other conclusion can be drawn fro n the mys terious siltnee of Gewlemen respecting the nature ars4 operation of these -securities, : but this--.-they know they have nothing to propose that will eithigr be aicepted by the Catholics, or endured by the Pro. testants. It is 'because they mean nothing,. that they will mcntiun nothing ; they hate no 'safe- guards to propoSe, and therefore they are silent.— Eut. a:e told bat we might have had safe_ gards, -1.130 we no: lost • the opportunity of estab. fishing them. We might have had - the Veto, Lord Grenville's long deliberated measure, bad we not rej,tted it. We rejected it ! 'Why, surely Gendtmen ,who assrrt that, must have Leard only their. own , pceches —Has not the Agent of the Catholic Bisltops (Dr.-Milner) told you, in his•publi- cation, that he would soonor suffer martyrdom than consent to the,Veto ? Has he not told you, that it is a measure hriteful to every Catholic ? Perhaps I sb4l be answ-red, than Dr. Milner is no longer w.,rthy of credit : but . I would beg to remind the lionopriibk Gentleman, that he was thought by them to be entitled to the highest credit only a few ysears ago. Perhaps, Sir, it will be' said, he (;:ed beyond t►he authority, and without the sanc tion of - those who employed him : but his con- stiolents have publicly thanked him--those Bishops, who sent hi.nt over as their agent, have thanked Lim in a public letter for the zeal and judgment ith which fie disclwrged his Office and surely, -therefore, when they thank him - for what he has clout', (Vier hi, renunciation of the Veto, it is the Rthaan s;attiohcs who haft rejected it, and not We. tWe must ntifine the.remaiiider of otr report to the following very brief sketch.] Lord CASTUUtEAGH denied that his Right Hon. Friend ( he Cltat,cellpr of the Exchemrei) kvas the greatest obstacle .to 1.1. e CatholiC •Claims—their greatest obstacle would be found in the condutt of the Catholics themselves, and in that of their friends As to the sentiments ascribed to able) personae, if such were his sentiments, they might have become public b' the indi.cretion of those who had • heard them in his more retired hours. Redid not think any man would charge, him with inconststency, when übder such .dttficult circumstances, he voted against a measure to whose piinCiple he was not fa• Mr. POribONBY said, he felt himself bound to contradia that assertion of the Noble Lord,. in which he stated, that the publicity of his 1.16 . 01 Highness's sentiments might have been o , ,v:ng, to the indiscretion of those to whom they-were sorn rnonita,ed. • Wherever he found this asserCon, he would gay, that it was without truth. The dispozi tion to glant these claims was not l e ss riO w than at the time of the Union—so that he cint not think the Noble Lord was perfedly free from inconsistenc.;% Lord CASTLEREAGH desired of the hight Hon. .Gentleman an explanation of some expressions which_ lie used in reference to the pledge of the Prince' of Wales, as appbcabiz to the Noble Lord's cOndoet Mr. PONSONB*, in explanation, assured - the No ble Lord that he never meant to use the word false " other than in a Parliamentary sense.: Lord CASTLEREAGII Was Satisfied with the ex planation. Mr. CANNING, in a Very able speech, in suppoft of the motion , which the lateness of - the hour at which .he rose precluch's Os. from giving, enforced the .ne cessi!Y of going into a 'COmthittee, to inquire into the state of Irelanch The Right. Hon. Gentletbari conirasted the various arguments Which had been advanced against the motion, and contended for the examination and repeal of many of the Penal ,Sia tntei against the Catholics.' Mr. WO,RTLEY wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pousonby) whether the com munication to which he had alluded in ,his speech was made when be held the office of Chancellor of Ireland, and -while the 'Duke of Bedford was Lord Lieutenant ? Mr. PONSONBY replied in the affirmative. Mr. WORTLLY then observed - that, to say the best of it; the communication was a very indiscreet one. Mr. GAATTAN rose to reply, but observed, that after the able 'speech of the Right Hon. Gentle man (Mr. Canning) he shotild only injure the cause if he s.iid a word; • 'The House then / divided _ , For the motion Against it . •. , 2r5 300 NlPiprity -85 Adjourned at Six o'diLek this morning. MAILS. • Aatilvao—z Lisbon, t Guernsey. I jersey. t Dublin, t Wa ter - lord. Dux-1 Cadiz, I Malta. 't' HE S UN. SOLEM Qt 1` rALsuivt>vnEAT? AIEMOROLOGiCdt, lOURAT,IL, BY - ft'. lIANKS, . . PUILOROPHICAL INiTHUME3T MAKER, STRANS. Thermometer. Wez:h:: , r.: -: -: -,-: I>, ..,... • 7 ' . i" , - • :-,:. • .?_o E . -C .• ....,-.. :3 . • I • I •.. I.j 1 ':',- . .• I cp. .4.., «.4 1 •-.. 41 ..; .4 i Z --. 1 g 4 °l 1 4 °2 . 4;. I 3 °6 I 3, 0 00 I 1 Fair i Ciciy. 1 9 4 2 I 44.' 5 0 •_ 133 !3 010 i au. Fait 2,. 4 I 44- ) 6 .• 13 3 13 0 00 I , no. • Do. 21 4i i 4i• i 54 1 4! i .2 Io 1 I i Do. Do., 22 45 . •1i .5i r 3?, i •v a 1 1 Do. 'Do.. I 23 42 4). co. 1 ~,•, 130 no I Do, ••• DO. 1 2 4 44 7 4.. 49. (3i .04 .0.3 1 Clay.* CIUf. I . , .c...„, , 1-, 1 . * w 1 i 1 ,now, „..n, and rain. ' % SOCIEi' of >IA 77917.1.81 ES - of LOiVDOY. --Y Thursday last being Sr. George's Day,- the ,ociet of Antiquar.e: met at their apartments in. S.onicrsei P ace, in put - suathe of their statutes and char{er incorporation,, to elect a President, Council, and Oth cers of the SOciety for the yror ensuing, wherew r a 'George. Earl of Aberdeen:lc T. Sir. H. C. Eriglefield, Earl Edward Astir, Lsq. Anthony Hamilton, 11 . F. 19. A. I.larnald, EA. • Charles Mom°, E,sq., wiiiium.Pray, Esq. Cr , reil.Ord, EA. Nicholas Carlisle, Esq. , I Matthew Raper, Esq. Thomas, torn Ottoclas, , 1 &mien of the Council, were re-chosen of the NO COuucil; and The Itiglir lion. Chas. Abbot Her.:;,:igp, Earl Of AylesTord The 'Right Hon. Sir Joseph ' hanks, ./.3art. John, Lord lirownlow, Taylor Combe, Esq. Henry Ellis, Esq. George, Lord Kerr}•ot2 R. P. Knight, F-sq, - Samuel - Lvsons, Lsq. loin', Lord Redesd.ttc• Ten of the other Mernbe;s of the Society, ireo chosen 'of the New Council, and they weresever3l l 2, declared to be of the Council for the year ensinK and, on a report .made of the Qfficers of tare it appeared, that GE.Ort GE, Earl Of ABERDEEN, K.T. was deEtett Presidea WILLIAm BRAY, Esq. Treasurer, Isltcnot.As CARLts4E, Esq• Rev. r. vv. W RIGHT, M. A. Secretaries. The Society afterwards din .1 together, at dig Crown and Anchor l'avern, in the Strand, according to annual custom. TEIE THEATRE."A'new entertainment, consisting of dialogue, music, and equestrian spectack, vo' 44 bought forward last ,night at Covent-Garden VW. atre. The - words are *ascribed to Mr. F. Dtßi)4 l4 and the general design and ariaugement of the picc d to 'Mr. FAWCETT. The scene lies in Hindustan.'" The first. at .went off smoothly ; but on the or pearance of the horses,- indignation and- disgo' r seemed generally to possess the audience on nest.ing such: a cuntizturd, degradation of - the firitii: Stage.: Frorn - 7all acc,junti- the piece was Avoetni l, . mangled by omis s io ns , an d b rought forward aloe: too soon The Music had gteat merit, and chiefly the prOdutlion of CONDELL.—CoOKs, °- Dublin, and 13zsnor, also contributed something the piece. The house ‘t'as crowded, but the at, dience expi ess -d great dia,ppiobati m i during ' Pr whole of the second att, and at the conclusion. The mode adopied by the loyal and independe Livery . , in iyriitxg an Address to the PitiNCS R l4° GENT, 1,611 t leAst•shew lo the.country the of the rrspeCtable part of that nurneious tiody,a l °', of wiloin are unwilling to encounter the insults theiateadants on the bawling Patriots at the Cog" [not) EXTRACT OF A LETTER FROM THE ARMY IN POE' UGA L. f*' That zealous young Otficer,. Capt. AfoLctil" TER, -of the Royal Engineers, ;Who lost his life civil in the morning of the 26th Match ) of Badaj , ,z, . 1 1" 4 been rolic..ved in his duty in the trenches bv Captio WILLIAMS, nod was visiting the batteries With tO explain what 94":!9 going forward, When a t..'antoo sh-t struck his her:d; 1 - - - 1 i !; death' was 4150104M:00 0 ' HQ had barely recovered of wound he had re . ceivei i at Ciudad li.ridrigt-. l'ltes fall of ibis yoUng matt most be a- sever afflidion to his family; atioss he profession, and to is numerous military frieaso for his pfitrate i virtues act.' public character had etl (Mart(' him to - ftll- who knew him-. lie was in 06 24th year of hts,age, yonogesi soh of the l a t e G , -!‘ neral MoLoAsTatr, of the Royal Eitineers, and Ile phew to . the - gallant' G e neral, Si r S AMUEL AVG MUT v." SMITEIFIF2LD NIARKET, APR:L 14. dPv's Market had a short . . snpply of •thircreti t kind.s of-dat t le; Lamb is cheaper; Itiu: ton igdearer Beet, Veal, and Pork support l asi pr i, es , an d the trade in..genytal usonit'x_hat fiat ; the sa!es in the Hay-ma.;lte ' tritliog : Straw and Clover fetched better prices ; Hay cOntiones. the same as per last.—The '4i:des - mention e d p; ice; and number s are an accurate stateMent • To sink the t)fi:(1, per stone of F.lh.. Beef, Ss. od. to Cis. 41.-• Mutton, Ss. .4d. to 7s. od. veal* ;s. oit. to 7s 61. Pork, Ss. Ot.i. to 6s, Sti. LllllOl5. Ll' :o 3s. 6(1. beasts, la°, Sheep and Lambs, . Calves, Si. Pigs, 240. SMITHFIELD IAYMA.III:F.T. Hay, "51. os. oci. to6l. cs 01. St:a'sv, ed. 1 3 1 . os. Clover, 51. los. oci..to 7t, los. oil. CORN-EXCHANGE, AP:; 24. "We have had many lot titer arlivals of Ay Leal to-dav„ but tolerable remaininglo the close of last day's Kai s - des thereof were bri.k, at a sm:111 3 1 " vance; which is.nearly:maintiined to thy ;.Barley and M:dt fay ktiej) their price; Beans of eat:') (Jest:rip' tiou support the last (violation the su; plies of Oats are short, and (root a continuance of the de-k mand, this trade is pitned sottewhat dearer; R .pe Seed much hig-her; and Flour without varia tion. • D/A/J. • • • On the gth•inSt. at his residence, the Manor-House, East . Aapn • Mary, the wife o f %V. E Esq. Her ;intuits; and ade•aionate example as a wife and mother, are only to ba equalled. by the placid submission with Which she bot'e lingering illness, and by the blessed and happy manner in WhiCh she parted 'with those who are left to deplore h.A I loss. L 0N I) 0 /V, SATURDAY, Arm. ?5, 1312. 'e this , day lay befOre our Headers the. Gazette; Extraordinary, publislied yesterday afternoon, Con taining the Official Details of that most glorious achievement, the Capture of Bad:ijoz. :We have not room, nor indeed if we had, would it be necessary to otter any comments upon the unequalled skill and intrepidity displayed upon this , occasion, nor to enlarge upon the im rnense advantaus which are likely to be derived . frorn - t. The Spaniards have already retaken Seville, and unless we are - very much deceived indeed, the • . .raising of the siege of Cadiz, and the evacuati on of Audalusia,wilhoon follow. Alf --AtIMONT has advanced to Ciudad Rodrigo, but whet her, he means sd - iously to attack that place, or whether he only hoped to make a diversivn in favour of Badajnz we do not know ; we suspea that thi latter was his object. The unex• ampled celeiity with which Lord WELLIGTON has taken Bad joz will seta considerable portien of his force at liberty to relieve Ciudad Rodrigo, if it should be necessary. Two Li,bon Mils have aflicel ; but .thej do riot bring any intelligence of a late dare. The aniwer to the Flag of Truce from France was, we understand ; dispatched ye'terday, under the care of. Mr. WAGSTAFF, the Messeng-er. Tire Debate upon the Catholic Petitions termi nated in the House of Commons this morning at six o'clock. The Motion was negatived by a ma- jority . of eighty-five. The CHANCELLOR of the Ex- CHEQUER . , Mr. PossoNnv, and Mr. CAIVNING spoke at so late an hour that we are unable to give their speeches in detail. Mails from Malta and Gibraltar arrived yesterday By - these we are happy to find, that Alican,.was no longer considered in danger, principally owing to the indefatigable exertions 01 General Roche, whose brigade is spoken of as a modcl of discipline. The news from Sicily is also favourable. Tranquil .. appears to be cOmplelely.restored.in that island. The proceedings against the Sicilian Iraitorshave termivated, in an aft of magnanimity, which, we hope, will be' properly appreciated by those who .are to benefit by it. Alist of the partizans of Vramic, - which had fallen into the hands of the British Cam mandtri was publicly burnt, with -a solemn assur ance that none of the names contained in it had been divul4ed. LONDON : Printed by THOMAS WOOD, of No. 35, Maiden-lane, Covent-gardenii and Published by WI I LIAM A RMIG E SCR! PPS, South Mc At the SUN OFFICE, No, lie, Strand,, where Advertisements, Orders far the Paper, niters for the, i ,Editor, (pestlstici, lton-street, Grosvdror-squue, 1, must be addrosed. , But, Sir., the 1-1(n. Gentlemen opposite, have an other reason is by the Veto' has been rejected. It is supposed to be so rejeded, because ine person who has now the honour of addressing you- hap pens to be a Alini,ter. If I were not ttie Mi nister, the Veto would be. accepted. Why, was it my being a• Minister th tt induc'ed Dr. Milner to say he would rather suffer martyrdom than accept it ; But it is absurd to maintain that the Catholics of Ireland did not refuse this interference in the no mination of their Bishops. Sir, in all that I hate' ever said, on all occasions when this silbjed has 'come under discussion, I hare neyer opposed the Catholic Claims on religious grounds : yet,, I must say, if they have really - renounced all their ob noxious dothines, they do not ad very. wisely or prudently. We see the Bishops in Ireland holding Synods :, why do they ,not in sane Synodal Meet ing openly and publicly renounce these docti ines We are told they consulted the most celt brat( d Universities: what did that establish ? • Little or, nothing.—Why did -they not go to the foun tain head at once ?—Why did they not- go to the Pope himself ?—Why did 'they not get from him a recognition of their abjuration of these doatines ?,—An Honourable Baronet had recom mended, on the preceding evening, a work en titled Trußatus de Ecelesice, as something which would highly instil& and gratify all-who read .it. I, have got a Tra6latus de Ecclesim, not indeed the exad- 'one mentioned by the Hon. Baronet, but one published with the sanction of Map - moth College. It contains instruelions for the youth educated there, and it tells them, among other things, that all coun cils are infallible. Now, though I do . not wish to fix my own . interpretation upon matters of faith be.;. lieved by others, .yet • I do- maintain, that if they have denounced the doctrines imputed to them, it is not quite fair to instinct the youth in them.. Toe influ ence of the Catholic Priesthood is acknowledged both by the Right Hon. Gentleman and the Noble Lord, but that it may not be thought I am alluding only to past times, to Monkish ages, 'to ilte period when Papal supremacy was at its height, I will, with the permission of the House, read some ex traas from a recen: - publication, by Dr. O'Connor, which prove that that influence is yet to be appre hended.—[Here Mr. Perceval read several passages, tending . to spew the nature of foreign influence over the Roman Catholic Clerco, —t lie Pope's spiri tual power in Irel itid, From . all this, Sir, the Hous may see that the spritbal power is mixed, is intimately blended with the temporal ; and if Ca- C.olie Bishops are to be nornioatect•Without any con troul trom the Go.ernnient, it is not easy to see to what extent they may become dangerous agents rn the ha,nds of the enemy. If, howevet, in our zeal for Emancipation, we are to overlook every thing except the Roman Catholics, why then let us esta blish 'heal at once ; let us put their Bishop's into • our Bishopricks, their Priests into out ReCtories, any . admit them. into the House of Lords. This, per haps, will conciliate them; but, in my opinion, it would cot be reasonable to expeCt that they should stop there. The example of 1793 teaches_us that to, concede is only to provoke fresh demands. [The want of adequate room prevents us from continuing the rest of the Right Honourable Gen tleman's .speech with the same minuteness, we shall therefore hasten to its concluding sentences.] . The great and leading ground which influences me in the vote which I stall give, and the pail w fah I have taken, is the danger which I conscientiously believe would result to the establishment by admit ting ,the Catholics to political potv,er., My opposi tion, however, is founded upon present circum stances. I do nor say, that because emancipation is not granted now, therefore it never will. I think there are strong reasons for a contrary opinion. These very papers that lie on your table, prove that a great movement has taken place in the Catholic mind. Who can predia to what's hat movement may copdua ? They may discard the power of the Pope : they may do much to induce me to alter my present opinion. I must wait, howeVer, for tads before I can decide. Yet I do confidently look forward. to the time when a cons!derable changi - will take place in the Catholic populatiou of Ire land ; but that change will not be brough:, about by force, nor by power : -it will be produced bys - knowledge and learning ; and when I see what talents, and What. minds are displayed by, those who support the CAtliolic Claims, I .em justified in auguring the most aulricious results when ihoie ta- Jews shall be fairly applied to the consideration of the great question between us. Is there -any . , thing intolerant or bigoted in this ?" I repeat, that I do expert, that I do look forward with confidence to a considerable change in a very short time. I cannot believe tlrat all.those revolutions which have happened, and ' are still happening, in Catholic Europe, will be prodOefive of no etre:A upon the Catholics of Ireland. They unist open their eyes; they must awaken their understandings. lam ac tuated by no feelings of hoitili•y towards the Ca- tholics of Ireland ; there is no ad of ch.nity - o r t kind ness which I should not feel unfeignedly happy to shei.v them : jhi9 is sincerely the, language of my heart ; but, at the pre:sent moment, I do power fully feel, that to concede their claims, would. be imminently to endac!zer the church Establishment and the. Constitution. (Load find repeated cheers). WRITBREAD spoke at con%iderable length in in -favour of the motion. He replied to most of the arguments of the last Speaker, and vindicatt;d the Catholics from the charges which had been prefer red against them. On the subjea of-what had bpen said with reveal to flit: c 'tidal of the Ptince Regent, he asked when he bad chosen for a Minis ter one who was the only bar to the wishes of the. Catholics of Ireland, was it too much that th-y complained, a&ing thus, he b,id disappointed the which were excited by him whegkPrince of Wales? He censured the observations which had been made on the usual incapacity of the lower or dersin Ireland to fill the situation to which they as. Aired. The Right Hon. Gentleman (We Chancellor of the Exchequer) had said, th a t th e Af-t of Unioo stood - in the way of concession; were his colleagues all unanimous upon this point ? ridiculed the . . Petition from Oxford, and the proceedings of the Common Council in Ireland with respea to Major OTionaghne ; and concluded with exhorting the Catholics to patience, under all rejeaions and in sults. .