The Sun. — London, England, 1812-07-11 00:00:00

commit the most diaboliCal crime which society knew of, if they were betrayed ; it would' 'be a delusion calculated to lull the country into' a false security, not to call for some legislative - Measure to meet the danger. If something \` not now done to avert the . evil with ,the strong arm of the law, there was no danger to'which combination ,could lead, which, from the character of the pm sent disturbances, might not be expected. Under these circumstances, the nature and character of the association had been described by the Com mittee in their Report. They had not entered into 'a detail of all the triirillSactions connected With it, as to such a detail their Report was ina dequate; yet they :hacl said enough to call the , attention Of the House to the subject. He under stood an Hon. Member' to have said in 'the Com mittee, when he (Lord - C.) was not present, that .he did not imagine that. any thing more was ne cessg:yy than that the Magistrates shOuld exercise the law as it at present stood with rigour, and that be. seemed in some - measure to blame the Comthittee for not going. into further. examina tions. With respect to the lattcrobservation, would say that he (Lord C.) had 'thought, that to go into parole evidence on - the subject, would not give them a more perfect - view of r the state of 'the case than they had of it without: - going into such evidence. It was not for the Committee to go into a 'general inqujry into the state ; of the country. They:had been appointed for a' parti cular purpose, and it: Was their province merely to inquire into the nature of one • particular evil, , and to Consider what was the remedy which ought. to be applied to it. The Hon. Member would' not deny that it was competent for Parliament to Make an enactment without first making such an inquiry ; and' the only question therefore whether Government ought to have made any communication at a11,,t0 Parliament on the sub ject ; or whether, having made a communication, that communication was sufficiently ample ? The notoriety of the disturbances was such, that every person who at, all attended to the ordinary .sources of information must be in some measure acquainted with them ; but when that informa tion- was fortified with that furnished by the sources thrown open to the _Secret Committee, he apprehended no doubt could remain of the fila ture of. the combination. He thought no Com mittee \ could have a mere extensive case- made out They had before them the opinions of the various Lieutenancies—the, depositions given be fore the Lieutenants, together with local infor mations on the subject. Various representations. had been made, and particularly from the West Riding of Yorkshire, stating the law as at pre sent exercised to be insufficient to enable the Ma gistrates effectually to cope with the danger.— They-had, besides, communications from all the Magistrates of the disturbed districts, containing depositions on oath,., many of which had been eonfamed by facts which had come out -on the trials .and convictions which had taken place.— They had had evidence of the secret meetings of the rioters, which several circumstances had proved.to be correct. The events stated to have : been determined on at the secret mettiogs had been realized. In . particular, they had received intelligence of the, meditated destruction of - a mill, which was put off from time to time by the se cret Meeting, and was ultimately destroyed at the time last appointed. The subject now therefore came before Parliament, not merelyon the ground of the notoriety of the danger, but on the ground of that danger being confirmed by the Report of the Secret Committee 5 and on all the Mat , rial assertions made, he believed-these had been no essential difference in the Committee. In looking to what length it might be desirable to go on the present occasion, he admitted that neither the Magistrates nor the 'Government had a right to look for any extraordinary powers, 6om Parlia ment, unless they could prove a necessity for , tatch aid, from the impracticability of effectually meet ing the , evil by the ordinary course of law. He understood an lion. Gentleman had said, the law, if exercised with vigour, would be equal to the einergenca of the case. He (Lord C.) was of a different opinion. As the law at present stood, it could not at once be exercised - with sufficient vigour every where to remove the danger. Some Magi st;:ateS, through various circumstances, were Inca uahle of e xerting themselves so effectually as others. It then the Legislature were to wait till the utmost the law could at present effect had been done every where, they might find that principle push ed too far, a dangerous principle to go on. 00 the other hand, it would be unfair and untrue to describe the conduct of the Magistrates as haling _beeit undeserving, or, indeed, as not having been meritorious. Generally speaking, their conduct . had. been hilly meritorious ; and if some spots appeared, if the conduct of some had appeared less praiseworthy than that of others, enough was not known of ,all the citeutustariees of the distric6 in which they acted, to justify any thing like a charge against such Magistrates. Admitting the Magistrates would in every pArt be enabled to discharge their clay with vigour, he still contend ed that the evil bore a character with which the existing power of the Magistrate§ was notable to. cope. .00 the part of Government, tine most un remitting e:ertions had been made to ' avoid coming to Parliament for extraordinary powers. Very early in the progress of the disturbances'a very huge military force had been sent down to el.l the disturbed districts. It was so great that at first it might appear sufficient to protect, the peaceable inhabitants from any clangers, -but the proceedings .wriich had taken place on the part of the rioters, were of such a description, that all the army. of,the empire c.ould mit afford protection and safety to the Icing's faithful. subjects against their depredations, as the law at present stood. Go vernment had alsci encouraged the Lieutenants to calf forth,' in as extensive adegyee as they might thiaLnecessary, that species of force which was so peculiarly adapted to their defence—the Local Militia; and he - was happy to say, 'that, on tbi; occasion, the value and stability of that,force had been most eminently conspicuous. The Govern-, neat had also given the. greatest encouragement to voluntary associations for the defence of pro perty. They had been anxious to impress on the minds Of the inhabitants, that it, was not by the military that the. rioters could be effecually put down, • but by- those only who had a stake and pro perty in, and a knowledge of, the country. They, 4 6 therefore set t i es i nha bi tants in array against the disturbers. They bad also given them the benefit a valuable measure, enabling them. to establish a watch and ward in that district. As the law at presentstood, it had been frequentlyThund:imprae ticable to enforce it. The - unlawful Oaths Act, and the Bill for ponishlog more severely the de staoseer of machinery, &c. had been given to meet -the evil, hut these of themselves -were. not suffi cient. He would now call the attention of the House to those evils: which it was desirable to pre vent, and to meet which the power of - the Magis trates, as the law stood at present; .1;;as particu larly inadequate. He. would here particularly' state,'that he would rather look to fucure recur e rence to Parliament, under the most inconvenient circumstances, than call at present for any thing more than those precautionary measdres which circumstances .rendered absolutely necessary,--- With this feeling he wished the law to be limited,'- not only in the pbint of time, hut also with re spect to space. He would wish it, in the first in .stance, not to affect the whole country, but oily those districts which it was supposed required ex traordinary powers. It was his intention in ask -ing for leave to bring in this'. Bill, to propose to Jima is duration to the shortest period at which Parliament could be expected to assemble, to act on its assembling as circumstances might require. He wished it to be confined to the Counties where the disturbances prevailed in the first -instance,' leaving the Crowu the power of extending its pro visions by proclamation, if it shOuld appear. ne cessary. There were three points,. to 'which he thought attention ought to be particularly direct ed :- a -Ist. , To make a more eGetual provision to keep the rioters from possessing theMselves of arms. 2d. To guard against the effects of Tomtit tuary Meetings. 3d. To give more effectual power. and more extensive jurisdiction to the Magis trates of the disturbed distriets. In the first place, ' with respect to arms, from an early period it had been the object of the rioters to pos sess themselves of arms. At first this had ap peared merely an incidental object, hut latterly ie had been their professed system to strip .the cosin e try of arms. With a viesv:more effectually to en able the magistrates to recover those arcs, it was his intention to propose-an alteration, in the -law. At present the law required thata deposition -on oath should be. made that arms were deposited in a certain. place before a search could be made. — This' being thelaw, even after the eventas,whiCh had taken-place at Huddersfield, when the 'Whole place was stripped ofaums, a seareh.Coullinot be made without such a deposition. The first regu lation he should propose was, that any Magistrate of the disturbed districts should have the power of searching, and of authorising his officers by his . warrant, to search not only for, stolen arms, but .for secreted arms, and he thought there could be no hesitation in giving them the.power of search ing for both. If they were to stop there, they would not go - far enough. Many well disposed persons would willingly-give up their arms.to the safe custody of the military, who were afraid of being seen voluntarily to give them up, lest such conduct should expose them to the fury of:the ri oters. He wished to give the Magistrates the power of calling ,on the inhabitants to surrender their arms, receipts, being given for the same.. At the same time - he was for making a provision to suffer those to retain - their arms who would pro probably have occasion, and who having them, would be likely to use them in defence of their property. Pervons so wishing to retain their arms, and not satisfying the Magistrates with respect to the purposes for which they wished to retain them, heproposed to give an appear to a Special Session, to be held every three weekS. Tumultuary meet ings had lately taken place, not merely in thenight bat in the day-time • a large number of' persons had been seen in military array, exercising them selves in the use of arms. (Here Mr. Whitbread seemed to Make some objections to what the Noble Lord had advanced)—The Honourable Gentleman might doubt to what purpose such a force would be appliedwhen trained; bathe (Lord C.) thought the Honourable Gentleman would admit, that in no country was an army suffered to exist not train- . ed under the lar, but raised in opposition ,to it.. Whether the force of which he spoke should ap ply itself merely to effect the destruction . of mills and machinery (the most innocent objects he should conceive could it be supposed to have in view) or ultimately to oppose the King's troops, he was confident he should have the Hon. Gentle man's strong support on this point, that such an army ought to be put down. A body of this -de scription, consisting of about seven hundred per -sons,- had been known to assemble on Sunday, while Divine Service was performing, at about one or two o'clock in the day, for the purpose of training themselves. On such an occasion the Magistrate could,only read the lidot Act; and order them to disperse. They could,' however, do - no thing till the end of an hour, and thus the rioters had time to accomplish the purpose for which they were assembled, as they did not assemble to commit acts of violence in the first instance: The Magistrates of Yoils, in -stating this, had not, in his opinion overstepped ,their duty. They had not set forth In imaginary case, but, in his i'opinion, they had made out a clear case, 'and they had fairly stated, that with no 'more powers than they at present possessed, they could not be answerable for _what might occur. He should propose; that, the_-Magistrates should have the power of imme diately dispersing a tumultuous body, and to makethose who did not disperse when so called upon, liable to be punished. The - Bill would fall short of the object for which it was frathed, if it only gave this power with respect to one descrips tion of meetings. It was desirable that it Should extend equally to nocturnaliiieetings and to meet ings in the day-time, and it would therefore he framed so as to give the Magistrates power imme diately to disperSe all tinnultuary meetings, whe ther they were for the purpose of training ,or drilling themselves in the use of arms or not ; and not only to give the power of dispersing such bo dies, for if their power were confined to dispersing them, the measure might be far from being such as was necessary to prevent the accomplishieent of the rioters designs; be wished, therefore, not only to giee that power, but also to give the pow-a er of arrest. He would enable the IVla!eistrates to arrest those - who had not . dispersed immesnately, bold them to bail for the offence, pat them ou t e,ir trial at. the Quarter Sestions 'for a maliadeineanoine The 4)1.-an of the bill was, to eitibrace and to meet ell throe. proceedings of the rioters as far as possible. .Now, ..With respect to the third point, he haeh to: observe, that in many parts there were dot a cient number of Magietrates to enfoece the law with all the rigour that anay. die desieed, and on the borders of the disturbed counties, by escaping in to an adjoining county, the law might be defeat, ed for want of sufficieut jurisdiction. He would therefore propose, that for the time the Magistrates Of the disturbed counties, and of the counties ad jacent, should have a concterrent jurisdiction.- lie ' thought the House would see the measure weuld he likely to be much more effectual if the limits of a county were not suffered to form a boundary to the jurisdiction of a' Magistrate in those parts for the present. This the noose would feel NV - fl :S small a departure as could be possibly made from the established law of the land to meet an extra ordinary'caseaand the measure proposed would be limited in its operation as much as possible.—• It these measures were adopted, he hoped the present disturbances would rapidly subside. It was. actingon a Parliamentary feeling, and on a feeling which every benevolent mind must approve, not to overstep the necessity of the case. Ile hoped much good would result from the attention of Parliament .heing given to this subject— He had never witnessed at any time- an in- stance in which respect for the. decision of Parliament had not produces a beneficial s 'elect.— He hoped, in the present instance, it would have a - propee effect on the unfortunate and deluded' amen whose ,conduct rendered some proceeding.ne cessary. _He called them unfortuaate, because he believed many of them bad been dree-n into this association, ignorant of the consequences .to which it would lead : and many, he believe!, having engaged, were afraid to detach - them Selves front ' the confederacy on account of the oath th e y had taken, and from a dread of the vengeance of their, companions. - When, however, they-saw that the attention of Parliament was directed to the sub ject, anxious to deal leniently by them, yet firm in their proceedings, to their decision he thought they would bow. Disappointed in this expects-• tion, Parliament Woulde be called together under circumstances the moat inconvenient, to take such measures as might become necessary ; but even this, unpleasant as it, Might be, was thought pre ferable to anticipating that- necessity, and calling, 'for stronger measures than appeared to be at pre e Sent required. He concluded by TA 3 V TIT; " for leave to bring in .a Bill for preserving the public peace in tho disturbed' counties, andfor giving additional power to the'Magistrates in -those dis tricts fora limited time for that purnos4." Me. WetrenaEaD adverted to what the Noble ' Liied had stated, respecting the call of the House,. which it now appeared, from the deetaration of the . Noble-Lord,, was postponed, in consevenee of the expectation entertained by his Majesty's Go- . vernment that they should be in possession of some trews from the disturbed districts. lithe expecta- 1 Lion of news was a sufiicient reason for postpona ing the call, how much greater was 'the necessity now for enforcing it, when the, question for dis cussion this evening was of the greatest national importance ? when new measures were to be in troduced into Parliament for the better preserva tion of the public peace, and for putting down those disturbanceS, which had been known and suffered long to continue ? The Noble Lord, in stating the outline of his measures, did not cleeni it expedient to look to the original source of these disturbances. In that opinion' he differed with the -Noble - Lord. -He thought it highly, expe dient, for, being a Member of the Committee, he knew that all the information was n o t coin munieated which might have been. The Coma mittee'had made their report from the documents - furnished by the Noble Lord, up to the 23d June. They had not any information further, though they might have had up to the Bth July. It wasimpossible, imposSible, therefore, for many Members of the. Committee to satisfy their reminds with the real slate of the disturbed districts ; ,and the je june report in that respect was incorrect. He - had been one among many who wished for further evidence, but that wish was overa ruled in the Committee. He. had desired evidence as to faas, and had moved for such evidenee, in which motion he was supported by seven out of seventeen Members. All that remained for. him to do was, to content himself with the documents afforded by Government. The Noble Lord had made assertions which he was not justified in making from the evidence; where, for instance, in the Report did he find any evidence to autho rise the assertion, "that there was an army are rayed in the cciuntry, and that it was necessary to put a stop to its progress?' He must deny the assertion to be founded- in fact ; there was no proof on the face of the Report that any thing like an army was in existence. There was not a re . giment, a company, or even half a company, trained , to arms. The Noble Lord would therefore excuse him, if, in discussing the necessity for propOSing a measure of the nature just now stated, he should go back to the source of the mischief; that source was to be traced to the - cononencement of the war, which had so materially distressed the . thanufacturimag, districts for the last twenty years. Out, of that distreas grew the disturbances which so unfortunately had endangered the peace of the. counties of York, Lancaster, Nottmngham, and Cheshire. But for the Noble Lord to say that the rioters had assumed stile appearance of an an army, was not true ; there was no leader - to be found: the persons .assembled were a disjointed,• disunited set, committing great- excesses, but in no respect, as it appeared to him, with a view to turn into a species of disaffection to the .G.)vermi ment and State. How did these disturbances com mence ? Why, they began in 'Nottingham is dia..... putes between masters'and Workmen ; but those disputes were settled, and Nottinehom was now quiet ; and . though there were distorbances and atrocities in other parts of the k'ingdom, still these were'confined to a tew individuals, and. in some instance the-principals ' had been brought to trial, were convicted and executed. In some particular districts, to be sure, Magistrates hid not done their duty; the . Watch and Ward P.:et uad wit been carried into effect. Eviaence had been - given before the Conealltee, that such was the fact. Compleint been 'made that -the inhabitants of certain Qistriets would not execute the drovisions of it. That measure, tLerefere, -er eg not of 'may benefit. He was justified in co is tending that the le*s already in existence hal 'not beers exerted for the purposes fut Which they were passed, as he was firmly of opinion;. thatif they had been duly executed, they would have been eoinpetent to the preservation of the PubliC peace. Under these circumstances, he could not .agree to the introduction 'of any one of the yr°. positions now brought. for'svard by the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord bad talked of depots of arrris would he point out any place where 50' stand could be found ? It was stated before the Committees. that there was 200 stand at Stocks port, including those deposited by the Rioters; What that inforitiation meant he could not - Cone' ceive. How many had the Rioters then clenc' sited ? , Did they deposit any ?—lt was 'AO stated that 'there was a depot of Ardis at Hays, wood ; if that was true, he should like theM to remain there, for in depositing arms in a wOodi, the di affected could not f a ncy th e m safe for their purposes. Bet the Nuohs Lord, as an.induce-. meat for the House to adopt his measure, had de= dared that the - Magistraci called for Ind more extended powers. UndouYcedly tney He knew that some of the AT.-:,istrAtes possessed heated and ind!nned imigi'llt:ons t o the degree of dinger”appy:l,cuael -the ,country. ' Thev sues nested the propriety of suspendina the Habeas Corpus Aet---u( nroclaimhisaa Msrthil Is:awe-he cause insurrectain wos abroad, and tht: Jaco:)i,is Were at AVOrk . ; . this they had secret deliherations for the porlioge of destroying the property of the manufneturerS. Wish respect to the Mal Ineu tioned by the Noble Lord, they met to horn it,• and the militare had notice of their intentions,' and went to protect the . mill, _bat found no rriob assembled. Basing foll: their guard, in conse quence of the no - a -appearance of The rioter', •they left it, and soon after the, mob astived. and burnt the mill. ThOse teea, however, it was well knoWn, had - for their crimes t x si the forfeit of their lives. They were, tried at • Lancaster. The' law then was seffisteet for poe • . nishiag offenders .of thii • descrption. What more would his Majesty's Government have ? to the meeting on Dean Moor, of which ineetie; the Committee had no evidence, unlawful oaths had been a•.bninistered. That meeting consisted of a':),31.1 4ti . persons, and they assembled on 'the 19th of April. Of whom did they consist ? Why it caine out in evidence on the trial, from the tea' , timony of the Adjutant and C o l one l o f t h e B o lton Local Militia, that ten of those Meetings were Local Militia men, that they were sent there as spies, and that . those whose faces were blackened and disguised; were th'e ten militia spy men. So it came out before ',the Jury at Lancaster, and one . of them said, they were so disguised " that the devil himself could not know them." They passed in review before .the General, whose name was Hurst, who also had been taken, tried, convicted , and was now in London, under sentence of trans portation for life. The General was disguised in 'appearance ; his face, however, instead of being ,blackened, was whitened; he had in his posses':' • sion a pitol and assort Of halbert broken in two it turned out, 'therefore, on investigation, that this meeting, upon which so much had been re lied, consisted in part of spies.' He deprecated the'practice of pushing the system of spies.toot far. From the evidence sent up to him, it ape ,pearei 4 that one of those spy persons was so warm in the business; that he proposed not merely to destroy the manufactories, but t/ burn down the poor or workhouse. Well I but, said the man to whom he made the propostal- - " Don't you know you would by so doing born the% poor people."—" Oh' !" said the Spy, " the de: vii seize that—=never mind—don't you min ft that. ! It was also true-that one, of those executed tt Chester was, in 1797, employed in carrying this system of spies, and he was therefore cad' titans in trusting to any intelligence furnished 1 such persons.. Now, with respect to the search' , ing fur arms, which the Noble Lord proposed a' his new:Measure ; it would be in the recollection of the4louse, that some of the Members of til e present Administration formed part of a previous, Administration in another country—they wont*. recollect that they were persons practised in meet' sores of the kind now attempted to'be intro• eced' It - 7,-ould not, be forgotten that those things a-ser e alone when my Lord Camden was the Losel Lief tenant of Ireland.' It woeld not be forgot, that. the Noble Lord (Lord. Castlereagh.)' was also that time aMeraher of the Government of Ireland' (No, no.) Was it not so then ? sea§ the assestioi l not true ? Was the History of Ireland so socii forgotten t Were the men in power when th e system of searching for arms in Ireland was par" sued, not in power' now ? But why search fo r arms ? Would you be likely by it to produce . 01 'practical good ?. Was not such a measure mor e calculated to produce disaffection ? Was the prge' tine of demanding anus likely to subside ? If no,.' did the Noble Lord exp ec t t o get - at arms b y s uc" . means ?. Was it a C o nstitutional mo d e o f proceed ing, to disarm the whole population of the noun' try ? Had they not the. undoubted right of usinta aritis in defence of their dwellings and propertY; against the attacks of l aw l ess d epre d ators ? What Would have become of Mr. Cartwright and his • property, had he been d e p r i ve d o f t h e means 13 £ ; making that gallant stand he did aga i ns t til rioters, who assembled b e f ore hi s d we lling ' 3 t Rawford To give such , great power into. the hands of the - Magistracy was very dangerous' not that he meant to impugn the character of aq. Magistrate . ; ail lie wanted was t o g u a r d agains t the possibility of abuse. The House would rel . collect that the system was f o ll owe d' i n I re land with all those horrors .which were afterwards s ° much condemned. Thel-lon. Gentleman for tit s reason was disposed t oppose tlw vote ; he would' much rather that the 'Noble Lord had pro posed to give to'theMagistrates a concurrent ju - . risdiction, and then he, should not object With respect to the dangers from these ' disturuo ances, was it proved the ri o t ers 'h a d an y funds t carry on. their depredations. --they were called oil to contribute their miserable twopences and tech pc, enes to support, the system air Manchester, a ,viten they were not able to pay up their arrears ,thq tell out among themselves. s ir was alsO proved th a e: a' person who prete n d e d h e h a d • great :secretsdisclose, and th e means o f 'Ob ta i n i ng much vai u s, able information, i s a s t o rece i ve a salaryeof 3u