The Sun. — London, England, 1837-02-09 00:00:00

g e cant its defence was not undertaken by any of the colic mgues of the Lord Lieutenant, that he was not answered by his Secretary, but that it was reserved (naturally enough) for the received guest and favoured friend of the Lord Lieutenant to undertake that task.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition, and cries of " Order" from the Ministerial benches.) He ( Sir J. Graham) would adhere strictly to the rules of order, not withstanding the agitation which prevailed on the opposite benches ; but he would, at the same time, express his senti ments (as he was eure every gentleman on his side would do) with a firmness becoming a commoner of England. The .Nohle Lord 'who opened the debate had adduced the authority 'Of Mr. FOX in Support of the rule which he had laid down for 144 Goverenment of Ireland, and he told them that they were to meet "every succeedi ng d eman d b y a succeed i ng concess i on, A P.atit the people were weary in demanding they were to be revel in granting. The Noble Lord cited the authority of dt. Fox, because no doubt he conceived that it would com taand the respect of that side of the House. For his part, he should always entertain the highest respect for that authority 'eehenever it was cited. Mr. Fox was a great statesman. He had a most capacious mind, capable of grasping with the prin ciples of government ; but he applied those principles to the circumstances of the country, and the times in which he lived. Hear.) He (Sir James Graham) had once the honour to enjoy the friendship of a Noble Lord, a relative of Mr. Fox (Lord a Holland) ; and no one who had the good fortune to enjoy the pleasure of that Nobleman's acquaintance could cease to respect and to esteem him. He recollected to have heard that Noble Lord give expression to his views of the principles of Government in a pentameter verse of monastic Latin— " Quae perpetuo suet agitate manent," Which translated thus—" Remain in Downing -street, and con tinue to keep your places."—( Cheers and laughter.) But if Mr. Fox had lived to see the day when the Test and Corpora tion Acts had been repealed, when Emancipation had been granted, and an-extensive reform in the representation of the people, the Church cess taken off; and the burden thrown upon the Church—if he had lived to see these things granted— if he had seen a proposition made for the settlement of the tithe question—a reduction of thirty per cent. made in the amount—the occupier of the soil relieved from the payment, and the burden placed on tile shoulders of time landlords--if he had seen these things granted, he (Sir J. Graham) would not believe that, in addition to all this, he would have consented to the vote by ballot, triennial Parliaments, the expulsion of the Bishops from the House of Lords, and other measures of this description. He entertained too high a respect for the wisdom of that eminent statesman to believe that he would (had he lived to the present period) have assented for a moment to any such monstrous demands.— (Hear, hear.) If he could have done so, he would not be act ing in accordance with the Whig principles he had always ad vocated.—( Hear, hear.) He (Sir J. Graham) saw a smile on the face of the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he men tioned the word Whig. He knew not what the present opinions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer might be as to the meaning of those principles ; but he would tell him that he ( Sir J. Graham) still professed the Whig principles which he had al- Ways advocated, the essence of which he conceived to be a jealousy of Popish domination as strong and lasting as the love of liberty. At this moment there was the utmost religious animosity in Ireland, and every concession made to the Roman Catholics increased that animosity.—( Cheers.) The National Association contained the seeds of danger and ruin to the country. The Noble Lord had called it "the spawn of their own ill doings ;" but he would insist that it was rather the Remo of the Noble Lord's indiscretion. The Right Hon. Baronet then adverted to some remarks of Lord John Russell upon the Catholic Association, during the existence of that body. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Right Hon. Gentleman was not quite accurate in his construction of his (Lord J. Russell's) observations upon the body alluded to, and re marked that they would be found accurately reported in the records of the time, if the Right Hon. Gentleman would refer to them. What he intended to imply by the observations he had made on the occasion to which he ( Sir J. Graham) had reverted was that the gr ea t gr i evance at th a t ti me comp l a i ned of. In Ireland was the Established Church, and the mode in which tithes were collected. —( Hear, hear.) Sir JAMES GRAHAM had been, he confessed, ex tremely anxious to hear what would be the Noble Lord's description of the National Association. The Noble Viscount at the head of his Majesty's Government, had, in his speech on the Address, observed, in regard to that association,- " that L 0 saw its ex i stence w i t h regret and concern, and could not help saying, that the grounds stated by the Noble Lord who aeconded the address did not, in his opinion, justify its exist ence."—( Hear, hear.) But the Noble Lord opposite found out plausible causes and excuses for its existence—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition)—and relied:upon perpetual conces sion as the best method of securing its suppression.—( Hear, bear.) Again, the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ire land, considered its existence as the natural consequence of the policy which had been long pursued towards Ireland. (Cheers from the Ministerial side of the House.) But let him call the attention of the House to certain resolutions which the National Association had passed towards the close of the last year. Those resolutions related to the Tithe ques tion, and might appear irrelevant on the present occasion; but he (Sir J. Graham) could not disconnect the question of Corporation Reform from that relating to Tithes.—( Hear. ) But before he proceeded to those resolutions he would read an extract from the speech of the Hon. and Learned Mem ber for Kinkenny, by which their introduction was preceded. e--( Hear.) In that speech the Hon. and Learned Gentle- Man said, " I am distinctly the friend of the voluntary prin t iple."--( Hear, hear.) " I no more think it honest to com pel me to pay the spiritual doctor of any man than I think it honest to force me to pay his apothecary's bill—whether he is really ill, or only supposes himself so. Sir, the spiritual doc tor has no more claim to this payment than the apothecary 1143 .—( Hear, hear.) If a man chooses to be physicked by the one, and to be p ra y e d f or b y t h e ot h er , l et hi m, in the name of Heaven, pay for the indulgence of his whims—let him, I s ay, pay for being physicked, and also for being prayed for." And, again, in another passage of the same speech, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman said—" I am fully confident that no settlement of the question will be satisfactory to the Irish people which is not based upon the principles which I have endeavoured to advocate and explain."—( Hear, hear.) At the conclusion of this speech the following resolutions were proposed, a n d carr i e d am id l ou d acclamations :—" That it is incompatible with the principles of religious liberty, that anY man should be compelled to pay for the ordinances of a Church with which he is not joined in communion."--( Hear, h ear.) This was at least an honest and straightforward decla ration_( Hear, hear.) And here let him observe, that he was hot now directing his observations to the supporters of Mini atcre only, but to the Ministers themselves.—(Great cheer mg-) The next resolution adopted at the National Associa tion, at the p er i o d h e was alluding to, was—" That as, und er present appropriation of the tithe-composition, a tribute is levied from the whole nation for the uses of the Church of the one -tenth portion of time ccmmunity, the people of Ire land are, therefore, justified in demanding time total extinc tion of an assessment so applied."—( Hear, hear.) In that resolution, the House could not fail to see that the principle of total abolition of tithe was most clearly and distinctly laid dow n ,-._( Ileac, hear, from the Opposition, answered by Cheers from several of the Irish Members.) But he would proceed with the next resolution of the series adopted, which Wes to the following effect ;—" That, in our opinion, no set tlement of the tithe question can give satisfaction to the people bf Ireland, which is not founded on the foregoing princi ples,"_( Hear, hear.) Of what use, then, in the face of r esolutions like those, was the appropriation clause ?—( Hear, bear.) Of what use was it, after such declarations, to talk of introducing measures based on the principles of Mr. Pox ?—( Immense cheering.) But there was still one more resolution of the National Association to which he would ad- Nest, and which was also passed on the same occasion with the others That we call upon time people of Ireland not to desist from all legal and constitutional means of redress till they have obtained full and complete relief from an impost equally oppressive and degrading." Such then was the spirit of the resolutions adopted by Roman Catholics at the National ! A ssociation. Let the House, then, compare them with the Zeman Catholic Oath.—(Cheers from the Opposition °enches.) The principle on which he would take his stand, "as founded upon time present state of circumstances of Ire 'and, and upon that principle he would strenuously resist the establishment of Corporations in that country as proposed by the Noble Lord opposite, for he believed that they would contain time seeds of everything that was dangerous to its peace and its prosperity. He saw nothing but clouds and darkness In the political atmosphere of Ireland. The conduct of the Government was vague and wavering —(Hear) —they ad dressed one argument to one House and another to the other, and then, to crown all, there came an Association existing un der the favour of the Government; and yet passing resolutions I _,° opposition to it at the very time when they had a Speech ad dressed to them from the Throne which called upon them to deliberate upon measures, to give increased stability to Protestant institutions.. —(Loud cheers from the Opposition l 'eaches.) S urely the House had not forgotten what took P l ace at the time of Lord Grey's resignation ? He ( Sir J. Graham) had reminded the House last year that in Ireland— in that very country which was so strongly asserted to be in a Condition fit for time system of Government proposed to be adopted for it—there existed the Coercion Act—( Hear, hear) ' — and that that Act, as at first framed, contained clauses espe n'ally design e d to meet an association like t h e one now exist s in Ireland. —(Hear, hear, from time Opposition benches.) In June, 1 834, how did the Cabinet of the day settle that Point ? He (Sir J. Graham) knew, and it was time the coun try s h ou ld know.—(Cheers) The Noble Viscount now at The head of his Majesty's Government, and the Noble Lords the p resent P res i dent of the Council, the Secretaries of State for the Home and Foreign Departments, then members of Earl Grey's Cabinet, urged upon the Noble Earl that the motives f o r the introduction of the mutiny clauses into the Coercion Bill no longer existed, and that circumstances were altogether altered. Those Noble Lords all fell eff from Lord Grey, and in July Lord Grey stood alone, still maintaining ee clauses to be indispensable. For that he respected 'Ord Grey, and revered the reputation he had gained by his rfesolute conduct ; he congratulated that Noble Earl on the L e ' l ,ings of inward satisfaction with which he must now look i e 4elt upon the stoppage and check he had given to a great and reeteeasing evil.—( Cheers.) Lord Grey was now in enviable Th trer nent, whilst his colleagues were in possession of power. Ii!• e Noble Secretary for Ireland had gone into a mass of olated details and statements, and had said that the Irish Go f ernrnent challenged inquiry into its conduct.—( Hear, hear, 1 1 ; ° , 41 the Ministerial benches.) lee (Sir J. Graham) had atio e _ eed with attention to the debate—he had hed the accu ieetinsion the one side and the defence on time other—and In k 'Tally as to that part relating to the resolutions respect- ITUbl e iTribe in Ireland proposed at the Protestant meeting in ea ufess 3' the Hon. Member for Donegal, and he wa Gentle he thought a strong case was made out against Lion. the „s,tnen o pposite.—(Cheers.) It was not the nu e "Ittre of the crimes' Ireland that was to be taken into mbferr-e-cobntuoi consideration. He had ;during t' e recess carefully watched all that had occurred in Ireland, and had seen much that was calculated to cause fear and alarm.--( Hear, hear.) Did not passive resistance exist in that country, not only to tithes but to the recovery of other species of property 2-- (Hear, and cheers.) A gentleman at liirr, in proceeding to distrain for rent and tithe s d ue t o hi m , h a d met w i t h a for eihle resistance from a body of 500 persons, and was obliged to call in the aid of twenty-three of the police. The police was threatened in turn, and it was thought better to with draw till another day. On the second day the number of the mob was increased to 2,000—( Hear, hear, hear)—who assem bled to resist the proceedings. Look at the position of the Clergy.—( Hear, hear.) A Rev. Gentleman, of the name of Cook, was shot at on his way to perform his duty—(" Hear, hear," from the Opposition)—and another Clergyman, when asking for assistance to cross a stream which it was necessary for him to pass, for the same purpose, had two shots fired at him. Such specimens of crime as these—crimes of such a dye and character—were neither to be heard of in England or in Scotland, even in times of popular tumult.—( Cheers. ) Now, as to Mr. Cassidy's appointment, had he not been re fused admission to the magisterial bench on a prior occasion by the Lord Lieutenant, on account of his being notorious for tithe agitation ? His appointment as a magistrate for the Queen's County was given contrary to the expressed wish of the Lieutenant of that county, —( Hsar, hear.) That favoured magistrate had paid to the Association objected to by the Noble Lord at the head of the Government—.( Hear, hear, hear)—the tithe which ought to have gone into other hands— ( Hear, hear) —and yet the Noble Lord opposite talked of the Government of Ireland upholding the law.—( Hear.) Look again at the promiscuous opening of the gaols which Lord Mulgrave had caused. It was stated that Lord Mulgrave always required the recommendation of the keeper or inspec tor of the ga01..---(" Of the governor," from some Honour able Gentleman on the Ministerial benches.) Well, then, governor let it be, as the title of gaoler was not harmonious enough for Irish ears. It certainly ought to be some title of honour, as the Lord Lieutenant so frequently consulted him. —( Laughter.) But in the cases of Alullingar and two or three other places the Lord Lieutenant, it was shown, had not consulted the Governors of the gaols ; but while he stopped as he passed through, for the purpose of changing horses, had merely walked as far as the gaols, and dis charged a great number of prisoners, without any positive recommendation.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Where was the Lord Lieutenant's Privy Council ?—where were his confi dential advisers ? He could only say that, had he been his confidential adviser, and had not been consulted upon such occasions as those, he would not have remained any longer a member of his Government.—( Loud cheers.) In the last case, too, he had mentioned, out of twenty-two of the offenders liberated there were nine of them against the revenue laws.—( Hear, hear.) All these matters, however, were, in his opinion, secondary in importance to the appointment ( f Mr. Pigott. In alluding to the subject of this appointment he trusted the House would not forget that the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) had said that the fonndation of the Government in Ireland was to be in perfect accordance with that spirit of impartiality which it professed. In this instance the Government had the whole bar of Ireland to choose from, for the purpose of filling that most important si tuation. He could see no necessity for the choice that had been made. It appeared, in short, that in proportion as any man was active in this Society, he would win the confidence of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and be raised to offices of great trust ; so that nothing was wanting to identify the Irish Government with the National Association.—(Renewed cheering.) He would read, without entering into any of his statements, the lan guage of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Kil kenny ; and he thought it ought to be a warning to the House and the country of the lengths to which it was intended to lead them, if they granted the measure now proposed. "I am then," said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, " for a reform of the House of Lords, and, as a means for obtaining that end, I am for the household suffrage.—(Cheers.) I am for the ballot, and I am for doing away with a property qualifica tion; for I say again, what I have so often repeated, that if the poor man has not moral worth, virtue, and intelligence to recommend him, he will have no chance of the suffrages of the people, for wealth will always carry with it great influence. I dislike the Tories as much as the ultra-Radicals in England. lam the very antipodes of them. lam for the Whigs, although they do not go the whole way with me ; but, when I get them on to a certain point, I will bring them the rest of the way with me."—(Loud and continued cheering followed the reading of this paper.) That quotation, resumed the Right Hon. Baro net, was pretty strong, but it was nothing like what he was about to mention. Let the House hear the following, and com pare it with the doctrines laid down by Mr. Fox, and enun ciated by the Noble Lord on the opposite side of the House on the opening of this debate :—" My opinion is," said the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, the Member for Kil kenny at the National Association, " that the people will never rest satisfied until tithes are abolished. That is my opinion. That opinion I gave in the House of Commons during the course of the last session. But I said then, as I say now, give us this instalment now. There is no danger— Mr. Labor admits it—l say, of coaxing the people from their interests by giving them a taste of a few agreeable instal ments. Let them have a little pap, and depend upon it they will wait for solid food."—(Loud laughter.) Again, the Hen. and Learned Gentleman said, with respect to the aboli tion of tithes and other ulterior Measures, " To obtain corpo ration reform, that will be an excellent instalment. There is a fable, in which it is narrated that a man, having received some boon from the great enemy of mankind, made a bargain with him that he would do anything that lie might require of him"—" and this," said the Right Hon. Baronet, " seems very much the sort of bargain his Majesty's Ministers had made with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman."—( Loud laugh ter.) " And Satan then directed him to do one of three things—that he should either injure his mother, kill his father, or get drunk; and the man, having chosen the last, got drunk, and then committed the other two:offences." " Be ware," said the Right Hon. Baronet, " of that drunkenness which arises at the abolition of tithes." " Thus it is that I propose to postpone the question of the total abolition of tithe —no, the consideration of the question, I mean. But give me corporation reform, and then I shall soon get the other." ( Loud cheering followed the delivery of this passage.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member fur Kilkenny had said so last year, and they had since heard it,' on his own au thority, that Corporation Reform was only to be viewed as an instalment. The Right Hon Baronet then quoted a passage from the speech of Lord Russell, which we could not dis tinctly hear, but which was to the effect that Popery was break ing in upon the land, and he only regretted that so many Pro testants should give it a helping hand.—( Loud cheers.) Sir J. C. H 0 B HOUSE—The applause which proceed from Lion. Gentlemen on the other side are very natural upon the conclusion of the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Will the House now allow me to make a few comments upon the remarks which he has made ? I mean to do so not alto gether in the tone adopted by my Right Hon. Friend, if lie will permit me still so to call him.—( Hear, and laughter.) mean to attempt recalling the House of Commons to that which in fact is the subject matter of debate. But in doing so I think that it is due in the first place to myself, as to others, to the noble and honourable persons with whom I have the honour to he connected, to make one or two comments upon that which formed, in my opinion, the spirit of the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech, and which was directed against a Noble Lord who holds a place at present in his Majesty's Ad ministration. And why was this? Because that Noble Lord happened to have used an ingenious quotation in the other House of Parliament. For this he has been subjected by my Right Hon. Friend to what I must take the liberty of calling a very unjust imputation.—( Hear, bear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman has been pleased to say in reference to the quota ticn made by Lord Holland in the House of Lords—a quota tion, I believe, from some monkish historian—l can help him to the name, although I suppose he does not require it from me —the quotation is from Janus Vitanus, and it is this—" Qum perpetuo sunt agitata manent." And the Right Hon. Gen tleman, my Right Hon. Friend, says, that the true interpreta tion of this is, that " by perpetual agitation" my Noble Friend the Noble Lord, and we " are to remain in - office." Sir JAMES GRAHAM made an observation which was not distinctly heard in the gallery. He was . understood to disclaim applying it to the Noble Lord in the manner de scribed by the Right Hon. Baronet. Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE— Did not the Right Hon. Baro net mean to apply it to the Administration of which the Right Hon. Baronet was a member?—( Hear, hear.) By so apply ing it I hope I am not guilty of any discourtesy in throwing back the imputation, and telling the Right Hon. Gentleman that no such motive influences his Majesty's Ministers in the conduct they pursue—(Cheers)—and if the Right Hon. Gen. tleman can find for his charge no greater proof than that which he has brought forward to-night, I am quite confident that the country will not pass such a sentence as he has pronounced upon us:—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) My Right Hon. Friend seems to think that it is for some base objects we are sitting here—that it is for the mere emoluments, the mere power, that 'office confers that we condescend to sit here, and to be baited by him every night.—( Hear, and loud cheers from the Minis terial Members.) I trust that the Right Hon. Gentleman tas had too much experience of the personal honour, if not of the political conduct of his former friends, to believe that they are capable of acting in a manner so completely incom patible with the honour of English gentlemen.—( Hear, and cheers.) I do not know what pleasure the Right Hon. Gentleman can find in thus perpetually putting forward such charges. But I wish to call this to his recollection that when a man changes his opinions (I do not mean to say the Right Hon. Gentleman has done so); but when a man changes to another side of the House (and no one has a right to object to that) ; but this I ray, that a man may act magnanimously without carrying into his new position a per petual bitterness against his ancient allies.—( Hear, and cheers from the Ministerial Members.) The Right Hon. Gentle man has omitted no occasion on which he did not bring for ward (not political) but personal charges against us.—( Hear, and cheers.) Allow me to say, that he has repeated this practice over and over again ; and after having tried to create some division amongst the friends behind me, he now tries to create divisions amongst those who supported the illustrious man who was at the head of the Administration to which that Right Hon. Gentleman belonged. I have seen his motives; and I have traced over and over again the Right Hon. Gen t leman. —( Sir J. GRA HA NI rose to order. There was no person less disposed than he was to interrupt the course of the debate ; but he appealed to the Speaker whether, when the Right Hon. Gentleman proceeded to impute motives, he did not exceed the order of debate. Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE : I do not think I am open to the reprehension of the Right Hon. Baronet. I certainly said I could trace the motives ; perhaps I ought to have said the intention.—( Hear, and cries of " Order," from opposition members). Ido not mean to say any thing whatever which can be construed into a want of courtesy to the Right Hon. Gentleman; but what I meant to say was this, that I thought THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 0, 183/. I could trace repeatedly the Right Hon. Gentleman in the attempt to disconnect Lord Grey and the friends of his who form the present Government, and those who happen to think with him.—( Hear). I had not the honour of being a member of the cabinet of Lord Grey ; but I ha d the honour of holding two high official situations under the Right Hon. Gentleman and under the Noble Lord; and I had the honour of having the office of the Irish Secretaryship handed over to me.— ( Hear). But this I Cell say, that if the Right Hon. Gentle man thinks to pass over us—to discredit its with some of the followers or friends of Lord Grey who happen not to agree with those now connected with the Government—l must tell him this, that I have the best authority for saying that the noble and illustrious person referred to never has accused the Government of Lord Melbourne, and never had the right ,to complain, that they acted in any way that he could complain of. I do say, that we are doing nothing more nor less than this, that we have attempted to carry on a great principle. This Ad ministration is but the offspring of the Reform Bill.--( Hear, and ironical cheers from the Opposition Members.) This Administration is but the offspring of that Bill, of which the Right Hon. Gentleman was one of the framers, and of which the Noble Lord opposite was one of the supporters. So far, then, from the Right lion. Gentleman taunting us for anything we have done, and which could justify him in attacking us— so far from his branding this Administration with the character he has applied to us, I am confident that when the truth comes to be told, we will be considered to have fairly carried out the principle upon which the Government of 1830 acted. The Right Hon. Gentleman brought, I think, this question to the test, and which ought to be applied to it. It is this how is Ireland to be governed ?—(Hear, and cheers.) That is the test.--( Hear.) I have not heard—l do not exactly know what is—the course that the Right Hon. Gentleman and his Colleagues mean to pursue on this occasion. They say they will not oppose the bringing in of the Bill. They say they do not mean to oppose, as fares I can understand, the second reading of this Bill. Am I to understand that they mean to take the same course that they did last Session ? Am .I to understand that they mean to annihilate the Protestant Corporations in Ireland, and say there are to be no Corporations at all, for fear the Catholics should be admitted into them ? ( Hear, from Ministerial Members.) Now this is the question, and nothing but this—( Hear)—and now let me come to a point which Ino not understand. My Noble Friend the Secretary for the Home Department has stated that the Government in tend to pass this Bill.—(Hear, and ironical cheers from Op position Members.) They intend to attempt passing this Bill.—( Hear.) And when my Noble Friend says that, certainly, as one of the Government, stand here in confirma tion of that statement, and take its responsibility upon me. And I now ask the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite, if we do not pass the Bill, do they intend to govern Ireland upon the other principle ?—(Hear, and; loud cheers from the Mi nisterial Members.) Does the Right Hen. Gentleman, sup posing the happy day should arrive in which we should be re lieved of our thankless servitude there—does he intend to govern Ireland with Orange handkerchiefs and " the Kentish fire"---( Long-continued cheering)—and this, too, with the assistance of a very respectable nobleman acting as fugleman ? (Cheers and laughter.) Does the: Right Hon. Gentleman mean to do this ? I think that the King's Government, and the country too, will consider they have a tight to ask the ques tion, and to have a decided answer to it.—( Hear, hear.) I am here not to force an answer to my question from the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, but think the country will put such a question, and also expect an aus , Jer to it. The answer they will have to give must be, whether or not they mean to give'a Corporation bill to Ireland—whether do :you intend to legislate for Ireland as you legislate for England and Scotland—whether you distinguished gentlemen and powerful party opposite mean to govern Ireland on opposite principles ! There is no medium in the two courses. The Irish people, I tell you, s‘ ill reject your no-corporation principle.—( Hear.) Ido not speak of your, so called, Protestants : but I am speaking of the Irish people, as represented by the great mass, as represented by the great body of the intelligence, wealth, talent, and power of the community.—(Hear, hear.) I say they will not be content with the annihilation of the Cor porations as they exist—they will not certainly be satisfied with a middle course with which you hope to content them— ( Hear, hear, hear)—and before you make a stand at all you must determine what is the course you will take.— ( Hear, hear.) Will you take up that position which you retreated from before, and by retreating from which you ob tained so much power and popularity at the time.—(Cheers from the Ministerial Benches.) The Right Hon. Gen tleman ought to be prepared to tell the country—l mean when he and his party succeed to our places—(Laughter) ---he ought to be prepared to tell the country whether he intends that there shall be no Corporation reform for Ireland—whe ther he intends to govern in spite of the majority of 86 —a majority assembled in his own House of Commons, one as sembled under his own auspices, and all this, too4ecause that proposal is supported by a majority in the House of Lords.— (Cheers.) I tell a plain tale. The Hon. Member for Bath complained last night that we were not sufficiently explicit. I do not complain of his doing so, but he shall not have to com plain of my not being explicit enough to-night. The ques tion to be decided to-night is this : shall this country be go. yenned by a majority of the House of Lords against a majority ef the House of Commons, or shall it be governed by a majo rity of the House of Commons against a majority of the House of Lords ?—( Cheers.) Does the Right Hon. Gentleman mean to govern by a majority of the House of Lords aeainst a majority of the House of Commons? I quote his own words: he has said he could not. I have his recorded phrases about me. Sir ROBERT PEEL was understood to admit the cor rectness of the opinion ascribed to him. Sir J. C. HOB 0 U SE—I do not quote newspapers. The Right Hon. Baronet said he would not do it, and he did do it a fterwards.—( Hear, hear.) He decried the practice, and he afterwards gave us a notable instance of his falling into it him self. lam quite sure that the Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir R. Peel) is not afraid of his own words. That Right Hon. Baronet did say that it was to a majority of this House he in tended to appeal. It is to that majority I appeal—to a Par liament collected by himself, and under his own auspices; col lected, I will not say under what pretences, for I do not wish to lower any one in his own estimation, and that of others.— (Cheers, and cries of Oh I from the Opposition Members.) But the Parliament I appeal to is, in the common acceptation, his own, and from that Parliament it would be hardly fair, and I trust that if tried it would not be safe for him to appeal.-- ( Hear.) Our majority upon this question is 86. Arc we to be controlled by a majority of the other House of Parliament ? I say no—decidedly no—(Cheers)—and unless the Right Hun. Gentleman is prepared to accept the Government on the terms of carrying it on by a majority of the House of Lords, controlling the majority of the House of Commons—controlling too that which is a popular ques tion, one of municipal rights, and a question with which the House of Commons must be considered far more'conver sant than the other House : unless he is prepared to accept the Government on such terms, I say that his opposition to this measure is not wise, and is not consistent with his usual pru dence ; and I trust, as experience on so many other occasions has proved, he will be shown to be also wrong on this. The Noble Lord has introduced a Bill similar to that of last year, one for forming Municipal Corporations in Ireland, and I must say that I have heard nothing, unless from the Right lion. Gentleman, which could in the least approach to any argument against the introduction of that measure. It has been said that the people of Ireland are unfit and disqualified for power ; that is to say, that if power be given to them they will use it, not for the common weal, but against it. And whereas you may give corporations in Scotland and in England, that you may fairly entrust to the people the selection of those who will manage their own affairs, in Ireland you may not so entrust them—that there, if you give them the power, they will only select persons who will do mischief to the community.— ( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has taken the high religious ground; he apprehends, if you give these Corporations to Ireland, they will do something against the Protestant religion in that country. Has, I ask, the Protestant religion flourished under the present Corporation system ? Certainly not. If none but Catholics had been selected to fill offices in Corporations, surely no more mischief could have been done than by the system hitherto pursued. I am sure if we are to judge of Protestantism by Protestants, we can have no other opinion.—( Hear.) Ido not think the Recorder of Dublin is a good judge upon this subject ; he, in reference to it, quoted rather a profane author, Homer, of its being like a golden chain let down from Heaven, and thus communicating divine blessings to man I We have tried the pure Protestantism of the Right. Hon. Gentleman for some time, and what arc we now going to try ? Something in a spirit of fairness and impartiality. My Noble Friend, in one part of his speech, alluded, as I have before said, to what would be the probable result of the rejection of this Bill. Supposing that catastrophe which he_ shadowed out in no very ambiguous phrase were to occur, all I shall say is this, that I think we have not rendered ourselves liable to any of the im putations which have been cast on us. When first we under took the government of the country, which we did under most difficult circumstances, we began by attempting to confer, and we succeeded in giving free Municipal Corporations in Eng land.—( Hear.) In the course of the last Parliament, we passed many Acts which. I feel certain a dispassionate poste rity will consider of great benefit to this country.. It is my belief that even the Hon. Gentlemen who are now our op ponents, will, one day or another, confess that we deserve for these acts the approbation of the country. If we fail in the object we have now in view, viz—that of making Ireland par ticipate in the blessings we have assisted in conferring on England, we shall at least fail honourably. We shall at least have attempted a great object, and it is more honourable to fail in an endeavour of magnitude than in a small undertaking. The whole of our career, short as it has been, has been marked with that endeavour. These observations I must be allowed to make in justice to our own characters, in justice to our con stituents, in justice to that majority of the House which has hitherto supported us, which, I have no doubt, will still con tinue to lend us its generous aid, and in the face of which, I must repeat, I defy the Right Hon. Baronet to undertake;the government of this country.—( Much cheering.) Sir H. PEEL rose—He said, I confess I am rather sur prised at the singular course the debate has taken. His Ma jesty's Speech from the Throne at the opening of the Session called the attention of the Legislature to the state of Ireland. In that Speech the Commissioners were "especially com manded to bring under the notice of Parliament the state of Ireland, and the wisdom of adopting all such measures as may improve that part of the United Kingdom." It then went on to say in the same sentence :—" His Majesty recommended the early consideration of three great measures—the con stitution of the municipal corporations of that country— the laws which regulate the collection of tithes—and the difficult but pressing question of establishing some legal provision for the poor." When the Noble Lord who brought forward the present motion intimated to the House in his notice that he did not intend to confine himself to the abstract subject of the Municipal Corporations Bill, but to dilate on the general subject of Ireland, I took it for granted, I confess, that he intended. to t a k e a comprehensive view of the whole state of that country; and, in doing so, that he would give at least an outline of those three great measures. But what course did the Noble Lord take? He fixed on a resolution of a meeting, held in Dublin—be fas tened the debate on that and that alone—and lie withheld every information which was naturally expected from him under the circumstances relating to the Irish Church and the Irish Poor-law.—( Cheers.) He fised on the 14th resolution passed at a meeting convened by a number of gentlemen, who thought that they could exercise with freedom and in safety the humble right which every British subject claims of petitioning Parliament.--(Cheers.) The Noble Lord was not ignorant of the usual course on such occasions. He knew that the petition would be presented—he was well aware that then was the proper time fur him to make any observations, or objections to it, ; but he did not follow that course—he did not wait till the petition was substantively before the House; he took the opportunity of the Municipal Corporation Bill to assail the petition and charge the petitioners with shrink ing from their assertions, and uttering calumnies of his Ma jesty's Ministers, which they were not prepared to prove in Parliament. But the Noble Lord got an answer—( Cheers) — such an answer as he will not soon forget.—(Cheers.) He said, " Oh, you deal in vague declamations--you make gene ral charges against us. What facts have you to adduce ? Not one. I challenge you to come forward and prove your asser tions; and I brand you with the disgrace of calumny if you do not produce evidence of what you have stated." That was what the Noble Lord said in substance. Well, what follocnd ? Why, four hours had not quite elapsed when the discussion bo eame so inconvenient to him and his side of the House, that we were told on this side that it would be infinitely better to con fine ourselves to the particular subject of the motion ; that the detail of small facts was no better than the general abuse ; and we were finally implored to return to what was the proper object of consideration—the Municipal Corporations Bill for Ireland.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord complained of a want of facts in the allegations against the Irish Government in the outset of his observations. Does he do so now ?—( Hear. ) There are facts in abundance to prove them. The Noble Lord had asked for a Committee —a Select Committee — to investigate the truth or falsehood of these allegations ; but Oh," said Hon. Members on the opposite side of the House, it is not a subject for a Select Committee, or any other Committee. If the Irish Government has acted wrong, let it be impeached ; move an impeachment against his Majesty's Ministers." What is the impeachment to be about, I would wish to ask those who urge this course ? Is it to inquire whe ther Lord Mulgrave, in the exercise of the Royal prerogative of mercy, as representative of the Crown, has unjustly or ins properly discharged prisoners from gaol, in various parts of land; or is it to investigate the appointment of Mr regott as his confidential adviser ?- Could not these be investigated by a Select Committee, without the necessity of an impeach mcnt ?--( Cheers.) Is there no mode of coming at a Minister of the Crown, except by the cumbrous one of an impeach ment? Is Lord Melbourne to be exempt from account, until he shall be impeached? And is he to enjoy impunity in every thing he does, until that tedious proceeding shall be insti tuted against him?—(Loud cheers.) A Select Committee for all these purposes, would be far better than impeach ment. What is the object of this talk about impeachment, and this denial of a Committee? Do you mean to resist facts ?—(Great cheering.) Do you mean to rest on the 14th resolution, and saying that general vituperation is not fair ? Do you mean to turn round on us, and state that nothing but impeachment will do for you ? Do you mean to tell us, " Oh, we are too exalted for a Committee, and nothing but impeach ment will satisfy us ?"—( Hear.) Instead of attacking this resolution prematurely, why did not the Noble Lord take the more prudent, as well as the more statesman-like, course of entering on the subject of the w h o l e state of Ireland, as lie had intimated his intention of doing? But it might be said that he had entered on the state of Ireland--Oh, yes, he did so; but it was a view of the subject which altogether left out tithes and the poor laws for that country.--( Hear.) It was an improvement on the proceeding of the provincial ma nsger respecting the tragedy of Hamlet, for the Noble Lord had played the piece, omitting not only the part of Hamlet, I suppose by particular desire, but that of Ophelia also, I presume by particular desire too.-_( Cheers and laughter.) Let us now see what the Noble Lord says in support of his pre sent measure for municipal institutions for Ireland. You tell us that when we refuse to apply the same municipal institutions to Ireland as we have to England, we are inflicting insult as well as injury on the people of that country. I ask those who tell us so, do they apply the same rule to all other mea sures in which the two countries are concerned? Do you mean to say that, having passed au Act of Parliament, incorporat ing the Church of Ireland with the Church of England, we are to apply that rule for the production of identity in our legislation ? If you do not, on what rule do you refuse it ? Is it not that different circumstances exist in Ireland, which war rant the application of a different principle from that which should be applied to England ? If the same circumstances exist in other branches requiring legislation, and if the same results ensued, should it be taken for granted that an insult was intended when the application was made? Do you mean to apply the principle of identity to the poor laws for Ireland ? That is an important subject, affecting the interests, the sym pathies, and feelings of as great a number of human beings as the Municipal Corporation Reform, or almost any other politi cal question which could be mooted. This is the law of England. Every person born in the kingdom, who is old, blind, or maimed, or otherwise impotent, is entitled to relief from hiS parish. Do you mean to apply that law to Ireland—you, who talk so loudly of identity of legislation ?—(Cheers.) I fear you do not. I know many among those who clamour the loudest about justice and equal laws are the most forward to charge us with insulting the people of Ireland, and the most active in crying out for redress—who shrink within themselves when poor laws for Ireland are the subject of discussion.— ( Cheers.) Poverty and impotence are not entitled in their eyes, it would seem, to the same description of identity of legislation as political partisans are. Then they show them selves in their true colours, and the principle of identity, as far as the right of the poor to relief is concerned, is denomi nated by no more soothing appellation than " a great hum bug."—( Cheers.) With respect to poor laws for Ireland, see for a moment what the operation would be on this measure. In England the right of voting depends not on the value of the house in which the voter lives, but on the payments of his rates—in which arc included, o f course, the poor rate. Now, before you offer us the Municipal Corporation Bill for Ire land, do you refuse to give us any explanation on the subject of the connection of rating with the right of voting in Ire land? Do you mean to say that those who are rated to the poor rate alone shall have the right to vote, or that that right shall be derived .solely from the value of the tene ment occupied by the claimant to the franchise ?—( Hear, hear.) In either case do you mean to submit the Bill to the Committee before you give any explanation of your views on this most important -question? The country longs for an answer. The two main questions, however, are, whe ther the patronage vested in the Irish Government has been properly exercised, and whether the Royal prerogative of mercy, placed in the hands of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ire land, has been rightly applied. By far the greatest matter connected with the former was the appointment of Mr. Pigott to the situation of confidential adviser at the Castle. Mr. Pigott, from all I have heard, is a respectable man ; but I contend that his appointment was bad. Do you think that I object to it because he is a Roman Catholic ? No, far be it from me to do so. I object to it becaase it shows the animus which actuates the Government, and because it is a direct encouragement and sanction to the Association now sitting in Dublin, that gentleman being an active member of the body. The Right Honourable Gentleman (Sir J. C. Hobhouse) opposite asks me what course I shall pursue when I I receive that appointment of which I had not even the slightest expectation until he spoke.—( Hear, and laughter.) To this I answer that, as I doubt very much his authority to confer that appointment on me, I also doubt to the same de gree his right to catechise me on the results of' a contingency which, until this night, I thought of all other things was the most remote.—( Cheers and laughter.) And now, what be tween the funeral speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman —the song of the dying swan—( Loud cheers and laughter)._ and the declaration volunteered by him, that it would be mad ness in me to hope to conduct the Government at all, I am left in doubt as to the actual position in which I stand. lam told by Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House that the greater part Of my support in the House is derived from the adhe rence of Orangemen to me and the influence of Orangemen in my favour. Now, I appeal to my Hon. Friends behind me, many of whom were then members of Orange Societies, whe ther any man could be more anxious to persuade them than I was at the time his Majesty's commands for their suppression was issued to acquiesce in it ?—( Hear, hear)—or whether any man could have been more studious to change and divest those portions of the spirit that pervaded them which might have been dangerous to the peace and tranquillity of the country ?—( Cheers.) In those endeavours I was aided by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department, who, on that occasion, spoke the sentiments of the Government. Will he now take the same course with regard to the National As sociation ?—( Hear, hear.) Ho cannot depart from his prin ciples of identity in legislation, although it be the National Association. When the suppression of the Orange societies was in question the Noble Lord came down to the House, and stated that he had consulted the law officers of the Crown— the Attorney and Solicitor-General—and that there existed doubts in his mind as to the illegality of these societies. He threw himself therefore on their loyalty, and he said he felt himself compelled to rely on their good sense. That was the appeal he made to them—will he try a similar one with the loyalty of the National Association ?—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord on that occasion also said, in allusion to the magistracy, that no man should be appointed who belonged to any political society, because the Bench should be free from all suspicion, and the magistrate should have the character of impartiality with all classes of society which he was called on to deal with. Has he applied that rule to the recent appointments to the magistracy of Ireland ? Have no members of the National Association been made magistrates since their connection with it? I know that a distinction may be drawn by a technical mind between the nature of the two classes of Associations. I know that it might be urged that ono was secret and exclusive, composed alone of Protestants, and holding its meetings in pri vate, while the other is open to the public, and free to all con ditions and creeds to enter, into. But let us examine for a mo ment this distinction. Tho Noble Lord declared that secrecy was not illegal ; and it appears that the only penalty which it could incur would be the Hon. Gentlemen's disapprobation on the other side of the House. But, even supposing it were, it is not in secrecy alone that danger consists. The Jacobin Club of Paris was not a secret club ; its sittings were open to all comers. Yet . what mischief did it not do? That Club, which has ramifications all over the country—which has paci ficators in every placewhich collects money—which inter feres with the administration of justice, and the due execution of the law —that is the dangcrons Club. Such an one is the National Association. It is said that it is a consequence of bad legislation. So much the worse is it likely to be: Why, then, encourage it—why sanction its proceedings ?—( Cheers.) I You, who conclude all your speeches respecting Ireland with a cry for impartial justice as well as equal laws, why, I ask y e t, do you place in offices of power and responsibility men who belong to an Association which could pass this resolution and act on it. also ?. " Resolved—That it be recommended to all rarisbes throughout Ireland to hold public meetings on the same day in every part of the kingdom." What is the object of that' resolution, let me ask you, except it be to show the physical force which they command, and so to compel acquiescence in their wishes ? The resolution concludes— " To petition in favour of Corporate Reform, Vote by Ballot, the total Abolition of Tithes, and to appoint Pacifi caters." When the downcast clergy of the Established Church in Ire land are seen daily struggling for the maintenance of their legal rights—but daily drawn down also by famine and priva tions of every description, because they could not get what was their right by law—when the Noble Lord opposite tells us that that country is in a state of perfect quietude, and offers these injured men a verse of a modern song as an only conso lation, while the more eloquent prose of the insurance offices informs them pithily that Moir lives cannot be insured—when such men as Mr. Pigott are put into offices of high trust with out relinquishing their connection with an association which cries aloud for the abolition of the " blood-stained impost, tithes," then is all confid ence in th e i n t egr i ty o f t h e Govern ment destroyed, and it behoves every honest man to see to himself. That is the state of Ireland at present. With respect to the exercise of the royal prerogative of mercy by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, the Noble Lord opposite admits that sev:ral prisoners were discharged by that nobleman on his visita tion of the kingdom—some of them according to the regular forms usted in such cases, others on the contrary. When the subject was first mooted if was said to us, " Oh, you object to clemency—you Jack mercy." We answer that we do not ob ject to clemency, and we hope that we do not lack mercy. We do not object to clemency, but we do to its in jurious exercise. —(Hear, bear.) I recollect I bad the honour of accompanying his late Majesty on his visit to Scotland—a visit of peculiar interest, as it was the first occasion on which that portion of the empire had been vi sited by a Prince of the House of Hanover as the Sovereign of the country. Now I doubt very much that, on that occasion, any person confined on a criminal charge was liberated, to do honour to the visit of the Chief Governor—( Cheers)—and I think I do recollect thet some persons confined for breaches of th e E xc i se j aw s wer e discharged from prison ; but even this was not done until the cases had been referred to the Excise office, and a selection euade of the cases that were most deserving of the Royal clemency. This is the only instance that I know of in which mercy was extended to persons con fined for offences against the law on the visit of a Chief Go vernor. Oh ! yes, there is one other inetereee that occurs to my mind, but it is of a poetical nature. It 13 recorded in a farce--( Cheers and laughter)—_a farce known, J believe, by the name of Tom Thumb.—(lmmense laughter., If I re collect right, and Prefer to the classical authority of the Hon. Gentleman opposite, the King and Lord Grizzle appear upon the stage.—( Roars of Laughter.) The King says, " Rebellion is dead—l'll go to breakfast."—( Cheers and great laughter.) And to illustrate the fact he says further—" Open the prisons —turn the captives out—( Cheers and laughter)—and let our treasurer advance one guinea to pay their several debts."— ( Cheers and tremendous laughter.) These are the only two instances of mercy extended to prisoners on the visits of Chief Governors to particular towns with which I am acquainted— one in real life, and the other taken from fiction. In the ad dress of the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) to the House he said that because Englishmen inhabited England, and Scotch men inhabited Scotland, they were considered deserving of Municipal Government, but because Irishmen inhabited Ire land, that country was not considered to be entitled to the same advantage; and we are told that because we withhold these privileges we offer an insult to the Irish people. Now, Sir, I utterly disclaim intending any insult to the Irish people. It is not because they arc Irishmen that I do not think it po litic to extend to them the same corporate rights that England and Scotland enjoy. No, Sir, it is on far different grounds. It is because I entertain great doubts of the goodness of that policy which would destroy one set s of corporate bodies, and establish another description of corporate bodies in their stead, which would be liable to the same objection as the old.— (Cheers.) It is not the principle of self-government that is at allinvolved in this question, but whether or no corporate institutions shall be continued in Ireland.—(Cheers.) I know we are accused of entertaining a prejudiced and bigotted feel ing against the Roman Catholics. For myself, I can only meet such an accusation with the most direct and positive denial. No such feeliag exists with me. The Right Honourable Gentleman opposite asks me what I mean to do with the municipal question in Ireland when I come into office.- -( Hear, hear.) Now he is in office, and let me ask him, in return, what he means to do with the Church question in Ireland? I am bound to say, that when I see an association established in Ireland arrayed against the Established Church, and I am told that the Association will be continued while the Church is suffered to exist--when I know the power which the re establishment of Municipal Corporations would give to that Association —can I doubt that the Church would be endan gered by their existence, when the main object and efforts of the Association to which I allude are - avowed to be the de struction of the Established Church in Ireland ? When we are told that we on this side of the House are influenced by hos tility to the Roman Catholics in our opposition to this measure, have we not something to complain of? Have we not some right to entertain a feeling of jealousy ? In 1829 we passed the Bill for the relief of the Roman Catholics. I never took any praise to myself for the part I had in passing that Bill, because I own it was forced upon me. I leave to others the sole credit of having passed it ; but to charge me with having joined in passing it for the purpose of retaining office, is alto gether unjust and groundless. The fact is, although it may net be known, that I was out of office the very night before I proposed the Bill to the House.—(Cheers.) When we hear it declared that while the Church Establishment exists in Ireland agitation will never cease, do we offer an insult if we refuse to strengthen the means for this agitation ?—( Cheers.) Do we see no other reason than offering an insult from the course we pursue ? What was the language of Lord Plunket, the most powerful and able advocate the Catholics ever had ? He told. you his opinion, and it was much stronger than mine. Lord Plunket said—" If I could agree in believing that no step could be taken towards the Emancipation of the Roman Ca tholics without destroying the Protestant Church in Ireland, I, who ,have supported these claims from my earliest life, would at once abandon them. I would change sides, and be. come as strenuously their opponent as I have been their con scientious advocate."—( Cheers.) Lord Plunket said this, and he said more. He said, " I look upon the Protestant Church Establishment in Ireland as settled at the Union, and to talk of shaking it without shaking the whole empire is idle. The Protestant Church Establishment is the cement of the Union, and is interwoven with the institutions of both coun tries, and, if destroyed, all public security must be shaken, the connection between the two countries destroyed, and the ruin of private property must follow the ruin of the property of the Church." When was this opinion given by ,Lord Plunket ? Not in 1825 but in 1828, the very year before the Catholic Relief Bill passed. If those opinions were sound, I appeal to the people of England, who are so constantly invoked—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches)—if I understand those cheers the Hon. Gentlemen opposite mistake me : I do not mean the English people exclusively; but I say I do appeal to the people of this empire, who must ultimately be the judges, if the opinions of Lord Plunket have been verified. The Noble Lord knows that it is avowed that nothing will content the persons who keep up the spirit of agitation in Ire land while the Established Church exists. And if the Noble Lord adheres to the principle he lies laid down ho gives a complete sanction to this continued agitation until the whole Church shall be subverted. I confess I have heard the de claration which the Noble Lord has made with regret, and I greatly fear the consequences to which it may lead. Ido think these institutions will be calculated to destroy the ad ministration of justice also; but I will not now enter upon that, although the most important, branch of the subject, al. though I have strong grounds for doing so. There will be the appointment of Sheriffs, amidst the heat of agitation, until all the other questions are settled; and this must tend to shake all confidence in the administration ofjustice.—( Cheers.) Mr. Fox had said that those who mistook paper regulations for practical 'government would find great difficulty in a country distracted by religious dissensions ; and under the pretence of equal laws they would not give equal justice, which it was their duty to secure to the minority as well as the majority.-- (The Right Hon. Baronet sat down amidst cheers.) Mr. N. FITZ SIMON said a few words in denial of an as sertion that had been made, that he had presided at an anti tithe meeting in Ireland.' Lord J. RUSSELL having been loudly called for, rose to reply. He said that although he felt very great difficulty in addressing the House at the conclusion of so protracted a debate yet, if they would grant him the indulgence of a few minutes, he would abstain from all those topics which could be more properly discussed on the second reading of tho Bill, and con fine himself to those topics which belonged to this pecu liar part of the debate. The Right Hon. Gentleman had complained that in his opening address to the House he gave no explanations on the Municipal question, the Church ques tion, or that which related to the poor laws. Now, he did not think that he should have done his duty if he had mixed up those subjects with a question of this kind. He felt it to be expedient to lay before the House, as he had done, the whole statement of Lord Mul"rave's Government since he had been in Ireland. He owned he did not expect that the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Sir Robert Peel) would have joined in the insinuation that he ( Lord John Russell) had sanctioned the interruption of the Hon. Member for Batb, because he did not wish to hear his observations. He thought the course which the Hon. Member for Bath had pursued on the first day of the session would have protected him against all suspicion of having prompted that Hon. Member. With respect to the resolutions Which had been passed at the Mansion House in Dublin, he did not see by them that any petition was intended to be presented to the House of Commons. He saw that there was an address to the Crown, and a petition to the House of Lords, but he saw no mention of a petition to the House of Commons, or if he had he should certainly have waited until its presentation. The Hon. Gentlemen opposite who complained so strongly of the Administration of Lord Mulgrave, could, if they pleased, moved for a select committee to inquire into his conduct, or if there was ground for inquiry there might be ground for impeachment, and if for impeachment there would be ground for his removal from the Government. But, for Isis own part,, lie could not see that any blame was shown to rest on the Lord-Lieutenant, and as to any impression which the charges made against him in that House might be calcu lated to make, he was sure that they must have been entirely removed by the speech of his Noble Friend who spoke that night. The principal charge against the Government of Ire land was the appointment of Mr. Pigott to a confidential and important offic,‘, at the same time that he was a member of the General Association. Now, it appeared to him that there was S 1.1 N At ' \. ; -,fr, 2 1 *: - - - . -1, :..:4 4 -' l 7i - --: .1 ;'---% t ''''.27'. •Stq • • ' --• if,. .". d a great difference between an Asso ' ' 4 " "4 - ---- cf those of a secret nature; like Orange ask the Right li on . B arone t (Sir R. c ceiti a t c sii been very studious in excluding from his Government, when it ' was formed, all persons who belonged to Associations. Was not the Hon. and Gallant Member for Sligo, and others who belonged to Orange Societies, appointed to offices under the Government of th e Ri g ht Hon. Baronet ?__(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Mr. Pigott was admitted, even by those who differed from him in politics, to be a gentleman of great abilities, ;of integrity and honour. Now was the Lord Lieutenant to exclude him from this appointment merely on the ground that he had belonged to the General Association ? He must deny that the appointment of this gentleman as law adviser of the Crown did at all connect the Government with the General Association. It was not to be supposed that he would continue any longer in connection with that Association ; but was he to be put as!de because, in a moment of exaspera tion, he was one among wally other excellent men who became members of the Association ? ' He did not see how the exis tence of Municipal Corporations in Ireland could be productive of increased danger to the Church of Ireland. Ou the con. trary, had the Bill proposed last Session been passed into a . law, and had Municipal Corporations been established, they should not have heard of the General Association, which was now looked upon as fraught with so much danger to the Church': The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) dwelt at some length upon the subject of the Church of Ireland. He was quite ready to admit that it was his wish and intention to maintain that Church L but he must at the same time observe that it was the Right Hon. Baronet, and those that acted with him, who brought that Church into its present danger. Had the Bill proposed the year before last been pissed; it would, ere this, have become the "cheap defence" of the Church of Ireland. That Bill, however, was rejected, and all he could now say was, that he viewed with great pain the condition into which the Church of Ireland had been brought in con sequence of that rejection, so far as regarded those to whom the revenues were applicable. It would be, hereafter,_ his earnest study, as it was now his earnest wish, t o i n d uce Par liament to come to some decision upon the subject. He should be ready to make great sacrifices, for the purpose of putting an end to the painful events that were now passing in Ireland. They could not, however, expect to meet with a ready acceptance of the same terms which were rejected be fore.---( Hear, hear.) The people of 'relent], as regarded this question of the Church, were in an anomalous condition. He lately read a pamphlet by the Bishop of Exeter, in which he spoke of the advantages which the poor derived from the Established Church. He fully admitted the justice of his observations as regarded England, but no person would say that these observations could fairly apply to Ireland. It would be a matter of great difficulty to point out any way in which the Church of Ireland could he main tained, in all its present relations, connected particularly as it was with the property of the country. ft was a subject re quiring the most deliberate consideration. He would not wish to see any tithe measure brought in, unless there was a fair chance of its passing with some degree of satisfaction. He did not therefore wish, or expect to be able, to propose any weasure upon the subject early in the semion.. However, no perconal feeling of his should stand in the way of a settlement of film: or of any ether question. LeaVe was then given to bring in the Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Friday week. POOR LAWS FOR IRELAND. Lord J. RUSSELL postponed to Monday next the question of Poor-laws for Ireland. It stood for 'Thursday. The Orders were disposed of, and the House adjourned at Half-past Two. BRIGHTON.-WEDWESDA Y. The and Queen rode out together this. morning' for two hours before luncheon. His Majesty, accompanied by the Countess of Mayo, took a carriage airing this afternoon. TIIE PIUNCESS AUGUSTA.—TIIC answer to inquiries this morning is—" Her Royal Highness is much better." The calls at the Palace this day included— Lady Aunabclla and Miss M.Leod, Lord Colville, General Sir C. and Lady Colville, on leaving; Lieut.-Colonel Sir Frederick Smith, Major Pipon, Colonel Sir William de Tuyll, the Marquis of Bristol, the ev. C. Nevill, from East Grin stead Vicarage ; Captain the Hon. R. S. Dundas, R. N. ; Mr. and Lady Augusta Seymour, and Mrs. Hildyard. Byam House, the residence recently vacated by the Earl ant; Countess of Kinnoull, has been taken by the Earl and Coun;ess of Munster for six months certain, where they are expected shortly after the departure of the Court. Lord de .L'lsle and Dudley will go to town either on Satur day or Monci.v. The Earl and Countess of Erroll, we under stand, leave on Friday. The Duke of Vorset is expected from town this evening, on a visit to their Majesties. Admiral Sir PultencY Malcolm left the York Hotel this morning., on his return to town. A house has been taken on Brunswick-terrace for the Dow ager Countess Mulgrave, who is expected on Friday. On Friday the Hon. General Phipps will entertain *a dis- . tinguished party at dinner, including Lord George Seymour, Lord de L'lsle and Dudley, and Lord Louth. On Monday General Phipps and his nephew will go to town for a few days. General Gascoyne, who .is among our recent arrivals, is suffering from influenza. Colonel Sir Frederick Smith arrived last night at the York Hotel. The Earl of Yarborough and Lady Copley have left for the Isle of Wight. Yesterday evening the Royal dinner invitations comprised— Lieut.-General Sir C. Colville, Mr. J. and Lady Augusta Seymour, the Marquis of Bristol, Captain Boyle, Rear-Admi ral Thompson, General Gascoyne, Admiral Lord and Lady Colville, Sir Frederick Smith, the Hon. Captain Paulett, Co lonel Sir James Rcynett, Lord and Lady Wharncliffe, Sir P. Malcolm, and Sir W. de Tuyll. On Monday evening Lady Fremantle gave a ball and supper to a distinguished circle of fashionables. COURT CIRCULAR. A meeting of The Cabinet Ministers was held yesterday at :he Colonial Office ; the Marquis of Lansdowne, Lord John RuisellAord Glenelg, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Poulett Thomson, and Viscount Howick were present. The Ministers sat some hours. The Duke of Richmond, Mr. Alston, and Mr. Dean, Chair man of the Customs, had interviews with Viscount Melbourne yesterday in Downing-zlrcet. A meeting of the Church Commission was held yesterday at the Office in Whitehall-place. . The Grecian Minister transacted business yesterday at the Foreign Office. The Judicial Committee of the Privy Council resumed yesterday the appeal from the Arches Court of Canterbury, Sherwood v. Ray. Dr. Addams concluded his reply for the Appellant. The King's Advocate briefly addressed their Lordships for the Respondent. Lord Brougham then stated that their Lordships would defer giving judgment. Sir J. Bernard Bosanquet, Sir Alexander Johnston, and Sir E. East having joined their Lordships; the Right Hon. Thomas Erskine gave judgment in the heirs of Roop . Chund v. Natal Chund Manik Chund, Bombay. Their Lordships would ad vise his Majesty to allow the appeal, to reverse the decree of the Sudder Adawlut, and to affirm the decree of the Zillah Court. An appeal from Bombay, Exwunt Row Chinto Punt v. Bboukhundas Boole Kidas, was then heard. Lord Brougham gave judgment, on the part of their Lordships, ordering both decrees in the Courts below to be reversed ; and that the present appellant's costs in the first Court should be paid by the respondent. LAW INTELLIGEN CE. COURT OF EXCHEQUER, FRB.- 8. MURRAY V. SCOTT. In this case, which was an action for libel against the Morn i 'g Advertiser, the Jury found a verdict for the plaintiff on all Cie issues—Dainagcs, 40s. A very large failure at Liverpool has been just an nounced, the parties having been extensively engaged in the wholesale . grocery trade. The amount of the liabilities is es timated as high as 250,000/. to 260,000 1 . There were, how ever, it is said, considerable assets. The effects of this failure have been experienced among many parties in the city, but we have not beard that it has led to any similar disasters here..__ Morning Paper. AFFAIR OF THE VIXEN.-Rear - Admiral L a .. zareff, of the Russian navy, whose name is mixed up with the seizure of the Vixen, on the Circassian, coast, has just had the order of St. Stauislaus of the first class, conferred upon him by the Emperor Nieh ol as. --Jo urnal de Francfort. -.[ Thi s i s significant]. COLBURN'S NEW MONTHLY MAGAZINE AND HYMOURIST.—EDITED BY THEODORE HOOK, ES Q .—We gate our cordial approbation to the first Number of this Magazine, which, at the commencement of the year, exhibited its new character and features. We are glad that we can increase our praises, for the present Number, the second of the series, is rich in humour, and full of merit. VVit sparkles throughout the work, and humour in all its varieties. It is sometimes broad and solid; at other times light and airy; but we are glad to say that it is always chaste, and often instructive. The Number for the present month opens with the " Gurney Papers." In continuance or the last series, Mr. Theodore Hook, that veteran humorist and able delineator of character, has given us a very pleasant sketch, told in his own agreeable way. Mr. Haynes Bayly again pays us a visit with a refresh ing tale, written with a great deal of spirit. Mr 4 Jerrold, too, shines well ; but one of the best things in the Magazine is, de cidedly, a paper by its new contributor, Mr. Howard, the au thor of" Rattlin the Reefer." With genuine pleasure we bail him a contributor to the " New Monthly."—Dispatch. MEUNIER.—The France says, " The garden of the Luxembourg is barricaded and masked by a fence so close at Vic part whcreMeurlier passes, that not a crevice is left through which his person can be observed in his daily visits to the office of the examining magistrates. Meunier's mother luzs frequent interviews with him. She is conducted to the Luxembourg in a carriage : a crowd is usually collected at the principal en trance of the Palace to obtain a sight of her as she conies out. Oa these occasions she is generally much dejected. She ap pears to be a woman of about 40 or 45 years of age. As to the prisoner, those who have had an opportunity of seeing his countenance state that he appears to possess much firmness. He usually wears a great coat, which he is n:,t allowed to take off in passing front his prison to the office; and beneath his garment there is probably a strait-waistcoat, to prevent the attempts which the prisoner's determined character might in duce him to make upon his own existence. If appearances may be believed, Meunier does not deceive himself as to.his fate, nor is he redeemed in his own estimation by t he grcatcr Or less degree of importance attached to his revelations."