The Sun. — London, England, 1812-02-04 00:00:00

„ • : ?raa t 1 t • d b e, o mere et pursuit; vvoril not the profesion be,ebanged ? would not every man in it he changed ? They trove must look for war not merely as a contingent evil, but as a permanent affiiaion, as the very element in which we were ” to live and move, and have our being." Many Catholics were - inour army ;but w lid& we hoped-forthe best 'effeet from their valotir Should we say, that in no state, and under no circumstances,, would we recognise a native Catholic Generil ? He hoped that they would not come : to _such a tranquiliging vote. It would rem as if th ey were afraid, i n case o f a C at h o li c hancellor, or a Catholic General, that the Pope Pod Buonaparte; putting their heads together, would infi !-lence them, on. behalf of the Cat holic Church, against the Constitution. This might have been the c h ase ini'imes whe n th e g eo grapher might have taken e colours of the two religions for the &scrip _ i' i °olOf all E urope ; b ut B uonaparte h a d p re f erre d ' to the spirit a b ove t h e l ove o f se a, an d l oo ki ng ' ° th e tijap of Europe now, they would find that sa me Buonaparte to be the eldest son of the Church, with Protestant Saxony his ally, ,with Protestant . Prussi a at his. footstool, and Anti-Catholic Russia t - . re mbling In his toils. But there was still one spot in Which hi s tyranny was res i ste d , on t h e strong i l t ( i )ld of the Itlquisition.—ln Spain and Portugal, in countries of the most bigiatted Papist,,: was• , the tr „: P,u,we.r of Buonaparte humbled, while we were • -i -m ,udog for the cause of Protestantism at home. I . )f llr ''Y we ought to feel, tither fighting . by the side Ed "r Catholic allies; that there was some con . ence to be pliced in- our Catholic fellow 31111- J : et ' ; We sho u ld b e sufficiently possessed of our ;uses to see the danger where it existed, and - w ot to fancy it where it was not to be found.— e should not appear in the situation of men, b ", amidst a m i g hty c o n flagration, seek for baubles ; we should not, under the pressure of P r esent danger, cry . " - fire" to the transactions of tw o centurie s ago: we s h o uld not stand upon the b of ancient - errors, . when the channels were dried P to calculate, in stupid amazement, the t a ol - ;,g; r of passing over. He thought the " onus pro laY upon the side of those, who, contrary to • ' ea 'on and experience, entertained such fears Priestcratt. But, supposing soch a perverse fa dig• Y persuading in Buonaparte, and such a " mo efffiZccipiendi" in the Pope, was it likely \ that the th e ' r . would be a revolution more complete than all r o e ,' le rgY, Nobility and pOpulation had been able -c c°Mplish ? The question divided itself into two Parts: ' - ilte will and the power. It Was true 'that -e Catholic lead been once the general religion of u " f " 3 Pe, but h e d en i e d that any instance was to be - to the hi s t or y o f m odern Europe, in which the y• i had attempted to erect a hierarchy on the ruins t ue Government under which they lived- 7 -- co n( sho u ld suc h a de s i gn en t e r into their .13 nte mplation, how was - it to be opposed ► h.T t „ r eason, if it -was introduced for discussion t "at House, and by force,' if force was ap led for i ts estab li s h ment. - L oo ki ng at th e thumb before .the distinctions 'of Catholic and Prostestant -were known, they would find that in its primitive at a i te, and under the tyranny of the Caesars, no such v ;"Pt was made, but at present having placed moral forces in their hands, we had stimulated C i e ' desire for higher.u rch. As to the ,danger of the of England he was unable to discover it. N,1,11 of. (alluding to the Church of England) i ' le h;lhough.ouised••in persecution, had wound it elf into the habits and affeetions of -the people, C o ul d, only be endangered from another quarter. It 11 'd support itself, and continue secure in the love andesteem of all who had the happiness to live un der its influence. Cemented by so much blood, pu rified by' so many martyrdoms, it was not to Ire . overthrown by a few selaries of any descrip tion. Another obje&ion of his Right- Honour able Friend was, that the Catholics would re 'use to pay tithes to the Protes'ant Clergy, or rather that they would transfer them to their frienbut he would refer his Right Honourable d once more to the Ma of Nantes, the 25th n ' i , c le of hich states. " that the persons privileg - Dy the St a t e s h ou ld p a y tith e s*to- the Clergy of t he Est a bli she d R el i g i on. " A not h er d anger appre hendedh was; that no securities would be given, the eto having been refused,r for his part, he thought that the yeti) mei/la - have been granted. It was E ra nted to Prussia by her subjeas, and should not withheld by ours. He differed decidedly (tom tu° se•Gentlemen who thought of conducing the work of conc ili at i on lik e a negoc i at i on b etween two hostile poviers. That was not his notion of legis -1 ati 'o• In his•opitiion, where the gift could be of • f er ed with safely, it should be offered, take it or l ive 4 it w h o. wou ld. T o s uppose, at this time of r l a Y , that every political establishment had not a - „gbt and claim to secure- itself by all necessary me ans, was a thing too absurd for refutation ; but ar guing on the principle, he did not Oink the Ittlt)de plOp ose d was e ither just or beneficial. The ° 'llatt Catholics had adjourned their late meeting `o the next month, for the avowed purpose of pre- Paring a petition to the Throne. • He thought they were right in determining on such a petition. It was natural, tor they had obtained every thing that hitto ranted t the recomendation of the 4 rone her and the comaplicated detail m s that would be n ecessary in the promotion of that great work, ' l ' i°lll d best proceed from the Government. There W ere other grounds that induced him to disapprove of th e present motion, ,and one of them was a ground Which his Noble Friend had represented as render togit peculiarly eligible. He alluded to the present 'lrritation the effect of which would be to fnake men I ° °k at the question less as a practical benefit than as a trial of strength. It should be brought forward un der other circumstances, and the friendiof the mea -sure were wrong to interrupt, as it were, the ex- Pe tecl grace. It was impossible for any one who conversed with the various ranks of this community, riot 'to see that they entertained - giant - prejudices a gainst the measure ; prejudices which time, and . • eroper, and. reason, could alone overcome. He "Would have advised the Catholic Body not to apply to the House, until they found how they were re ceived in another quarter. They were not yet, however; deprived of the hope of success at least, ,they were not d r iv e n t o the certainty of despair.-•;-• -41 ad this been the case, he should-have expeEted that they would have come for.var.:i in a tone of corn- Plaint, a tone which was in itself a sort of consola tion and - revenge. But to that stroe they were Int , driven, a n d th ere f ore h e w i,h e d the present . application had not been made. He was aware, that a person who did not go to the ehfire length .th I- ' I's' e prejudices an ee Inge o °then, 94 else to !console himself than the consciousness or doing 0011 . . For his part; wishing'well to the Ca: thblics, not as Catholics, but as a part 'bf flit com munity, he wished that the question was set at rest, though not in the manner recommended by'his Ho nourable plend : not as th - eqieloiy of one part over the othei - ,*but as an arrangement for the good of the kind= and constitution. He did not understand ItePqoble Friend's view,of the Constitution ; he ap peared to iook upon it as if it were written In one book, andao be read at one glance ; and alluded to the Revolution, as if it had been manufaamed ; but that was not the way in which he (Mr. C.) beheld it : he looked upmi 'it as distinguished from that of France•by an endeavour to create, but to establish 5 not by a passion for experimentaheing new theories, but a desire to confirm the ancient venerable prac tices made and handed down to us even by our Ca; , tholic ancestors. Ile did not like the pianre which his Right Hon. Friend drew of it, but regarded it on a larger and more extensive scale "Pendentemque sinus; et vasta viste vocantern cm, uleum in grcemiunz." He should hesitate long, if be thought that the vote which, be was'about to give this night would tend in any manner to further the purpci'Seof his Right Hen. Friend ; but as he iought it- could have no such • of opinion, that to vote in a dif ferent manner would not lead to any practical advan tage; for the reasons he had already stated, he must, however reluaantly, oppose the motion. Sir J. NICHOLL, in explanation, disavowed any wish to re-enaa the restrictions from which the Ca tholics had already been relieved. So far was he from entertaining any disposition of that nature, that were such a proposition made, it would meet with his decided opposition. Nor had he, as represented by. the Right Honourable Gentleman, intimated any convic=tion that the exclusion of the CatholiCs should be perpetual ; and he really thought that, in his original speech, he had sufficiently guarded himself from such a misconception:' Mr. CANNING, in explanation, admitted that the Honobrable and Learned Gentleman had, with re sped to the first subject, sufficiently guarded himself in words from the imputation of being favontable to the re-enaameet of the restriaioneon the Catho lics ; but his argument certainly tended the other way. He was happy, however, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman bad an opportunity afforded him of distinctly disclaiming any such disposition. With respect to the other point. ,he had certainly miscon ceived the Hon. and Learned Gent. through the whole of his speech ; for he had decidedly under stood him to say, that in his opinion the time would never-arrive for granting to the Catholics a partici pation in the rights of their fellow-subjeas. Mr. HUTCHINSON, as he had been called upon in so pointed a manner by the Right Hon. Gentleman, would trespass upon the indulgence of -the House for a few moments. This was not the first time in which he had heard the Right Hon. Gentleman con clude_ a most brilliant display of eloquence by giving a miserable bad vote. He had not more admired the great talent which the Right Hon. Gentleman pos sessed, than the prostitution of that talent tot 'the purpose of making bad and unfuuuded 'impressions. loud cry of Order. • The SPEAKER requested the Hon. Gentleman to 'abstain from using expressions of so strong a nature. Mr. HUTCHINSON resumed. The Right ,Hon. Gentleman had declared that the motion of "which he (Mr. H.) had given notice, was one not to be argued, but at once denied. The Right Hon..Gen tlemati, however, who was himself one of the Ad ministration which - formed an union with Ireland, founded on promises, every one of which had been violated, ought ndf to be his lecturer on such a sub jea. He felt he was discharging his duty to his country, when he met with the Right Hon. Gen tleman's decided disapprobation. He contended that the Irish Government had done every thing to inflame and disaffea the Catholics. Their claims Were just—they ought never to renounce thene; and he was persuaded that there would be no safety for the empire until they were accorded. Mr. PEELE observed, that as the . objea of the Catholics was the acquisition of political power, a reference ought to be had to-their former conduct, to se&how they had exercised power when in the pos : session of it. He had not heard any satistaaory ex planation of the real views of the Catholic Assem bly. It had been said that their object was to prepare a petition ; but were the terms or the prayer of that petition so difficult and so novel as to require the meeting of Catholic Peers and sons of Peers, ie order to frame it ? In his opinion, the Irish Government bad no option, but were compelled to enforce the law. 1-le thought the motion of the Noble Lord injudicious, as the warmest: advocates for the Catholic? claims would be justified in retusiog to accede to the appointment of the proposer! Com mittee. Even Lord Grenville, in his letter to Lord Fingal, had disapproved the presentation of a peti tion, the object of which was the appointment of a Committee; and now the Noble Lord opposite miry ed for the appointment of a Committee without any petition. This might nut be unjust to the Noble in dividual of whom he had spoken, for whom great al lowance might be made for change of opinion, but it was unjust to those who concurred with that Noble Lord to believe that a lapse of 2u months would make such a difference in their sentiments. To grant the Catholics all that they required, would be to place them upon more than ar. eqvality with their Pi o testant brethren. One 'step of concession led in another. If the Catholics were admitted' to two branches of the Legislature, he wished to know on what ground they could be refused access to the third ? He begged to be understood, that in giving his' vote on the present occasion, he by no means pledged himself to ,any opinion on the ,Catholic Clainis, but merely expressed his sense of the in expediency- of such a Counuittee.as that proposed. Lord GEORGE GRENVILLE argued in - favour of the mialion, and contended, that . the more frequently the Catholic Claims were considered by Parliament, the more fully would their justice be 'established. Mr. HERBERT did nut impute any blame to the Irish Government for their recent conduct ; but would vote for the inquiry, as calculated to be pro ductive of much good. Sir A. Pt GOTT controverted theopinion that this was not a proper time tor conceding to the Catholics their claims. — The Honourable and Learned Gentleman seemed to think, that when the Irish should be educated- , .when they should -be-condutied from ignorance to knowledge/ and from tur • bulence to order, that would be the time for such a conces , sion. For his part lie Mad no hope of living to see such a , time; The R ht Ticatuarahte Gvatleinab,•who to such A To rilciarft speech had tacked such a lame and declaro that when prejudices were .ol'adued, end the 'question could be entered upon with a ge4.ral coneurree of sentiments, that,in his opinion, would be.!:lie time for granting to the CatbOlics . their claims. Of the arriwal of this periodhe was as hopeless . as he was of that described by the Hots. Gent,ln his opinion the concession should be immediate. If Miitimrs would say that fifteen days after the present day the question might be considered with more propriety, he would notubjed' to the delay ; but t . lts they had not yet said. From the year iSon the period of the Union, the Catholics had been out of the pale of the Legislature. For this exclusion, lea sons well known- to every one had been- urged. The only consolation which every good subject had, amidst his dis: tress for the unhappy situation of his Majesty, was,. that the consideration of the grievances of Ireland was thereby opened to Parliament, and that the functions of the Legisla.: ture,which had been so long suspended, need no longer be so, for it was quiteimposSible, and indeed would be as absurd as false, to supiluse that the August Personage who represent ed his . Majesty diA not feel Ininself free to listen to the ad—. vice of Parliament on that as well as on any Other subject. What was the history of Catholic Committees? Front the year 1757, when the Irish Catholics had the miserable pri. vilege of reclaiming an acre of bog land, and of having halt an acre of arable land for a potatoe-garden, provided they kept at a proper distance from any town, they had invaria bly, and with the best cited, made their application To Go:. vermnent through the medium of Com:nt t tees.. Sir. Arthur Pigott then went -into a detailed legal argument to sheW that an erroneous construction had been put upon the Convention Ad, and concluded with giving his support to the motion. . Mr. W. POLE said, that if he had not recolleoled what passed last year, 'he should have been surpris ed at the course this debate had taken. He should have beeti surprised, that, upon a question, which certainly was brought forwa,td as an attack upon the Irish Government, those Gentlemen the-most ac quainted with the state of Ireland, those great Leaders who-sat on the other side, should have-so: long remained silent. He expected that the Right. Hon. and Learned Gen3,lerben opposite to him would have come forward early in the debate to prefer those charges which it was understood they intended to make against the Irish Government. They had, however, thought proper to pursue an other course, and -the' Learned Gentleman -who had just sat down had been pat forward, and his pan tomime had had the effect intended, it had drawn him (Mr. Pole) forward, and -compelled him to ad dress the House before the expected charges were made, and therefore placed him in the -disadvan tageous situation of speakingebefore those by whom ' he expected to be attacked, and to whom he wished to have replied. Feeling, however, that the cause which he had to support was a good one, and that the Irish Government had only performed its duty in eating as it had done, he felt the less regret at the heaiy task which had devolved upon him. shmild commence the observations which he had to submit to the 'House by stating, that he considered the motion, notwithstanding the manner in which it bad been brought forward by the Noble Lord, (a manner which was undoubtedly highly creditable to him), and notwithstanding the backwardness of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite him, he should, he said, consider the motion as a direct attack upon the condua of the Irish Government. The question naturally divided itself into two distils& parts, viz: the intended censure upon the condua of the Irish Gdvernment, and the consideration of the Catholic Question. In defending the condu& of the Irish Government, he must observe, that during the whole course of last summer, every posssiele effort, every faCtious art was used . to mislead the people of Ireland, and of this country also, by confounding what was .called the ,Catholic Question, with the measures which the Lord Lieutenant had been corn pell2d to adopt to maintain the public tranquility. With the view which the Lord Lieutenant and his advisers took of the situation of the state of Ireland, and of the measures which it was necessary'to adopt, the question of the Catholic Claims bad nothing to do ; the Lord Lieutenant thought that his duty con sisted in maintaining the laws, of the land, in en forcing obedience to those laws e and in taking care that equal justice was administered to all classes of his Majesty's subjeas over whom he was appointed. to-preside; and he assured the House, that the Lord Lieutenant and his advisers found they had qulte, enough Ito -do in performing those duties, evithbot entering into any speculations about altering the Constitution. The Lord Lieutenant and his ads visers felt that it was not their dety to enter into the merits of the Catholic Question they thought it was not proper for them to give any opinionupon that stabjea, and they felt also that it was ,their duty take care that no impediment bhould be thrown in the way of any of his Majesty's subjects; of whatever class or denomination, who wished to bring forward eny, claims they might have, or to pe tition for the redress of any grievance under which they might labour, provided it was-done in a legal_ and constitutional manner. It Was necessary for him to make this assertion distinctly, and to press it strongly upon the attention of the House, because no effort had been spared, no art had been left un employed to impress a belief upon the minds of the people of both countries, that the object of the Irish Government was, not to inforce obedience to the laws, not to maintain public tranquility, but to throw impediments in the way of the Catholics, and to prevent them from claiming what they stated to be theierights, or stating what they considered to be their grievances. Before he proceeded to the con. • sideration of that part of the condo& of the Irish Government which more immediately claimed 'the attention of the Hou,se, he must beg leave to allude very shortly to what passed last Session. The House could not have forgotten the circular letter which had been issued in his name, about which -so much had been said, and upon which so tnuch wit hAd been employed - . The letter certainly had been issued in his name, but it was framed and drawn up by the Law Officers of the Crown. - He was far from wishing to throw off any responsibility which belonged to him for any part which he had taken in that transaction, but he thought it a little hard that an endeavour should be. made for bad purposes to turn that letter into ridicule, and to represent it as the hasty composition of a very arrogant man. This letter was very meets discussed last year' in that. House ; be remembered the motion of the Right Honourable end Learned Gentleman opposite to him upon the subject. That Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman, in bringing forward his mo tion, had taken three grounds of argument against the measure ; but he had not attempted to combat the legality of the conduct adopted by the'lrish Gs. vermuent. The first objeetion taken by the Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman was, that it ,was imprudent in the Irish Government to proceed upon the law at the time and under the circum stances that they had acted upon it. • The second objeaion was, that if the Irish Government felt it absolutely necessary to act upon the law, they ought - p- .t . to gave proceeded by way of prociattion, inste; of issuing the circular letter alluded to. Objealion was, that the A&. of ,Parliarpent only ati tached upon those who had attended the meetings described, and voted, and but that, in thecir;• CUlar letter, tie Magistrates were called upon to ar rest; and holdto bail those who attended, O r voted; r aelea, thei e. were the Objettions taken by the Right tronourable, and Learned Gentleman', but never.was asserted by him, or by' atiy . One. individual who spoke upon the subjeel,, that the constru6tiori which the Irish Government had put the AA of Parli irnent was'not the true and legal construe:• tion.—[Here some Gentlemen on the oppoSite side of the House manifested ,some diserri troun Mr: Pug's siat6areot.]---Mr,. ,batd; he vas Coo.: vinced that he was correct in his assertion, And he had no doubt that he ihonid be abfe tci convince lite House, and even the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman, thst his recolle<<i ioti upon the subjea was accurate. The Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman had, as he before stated; concluded that the_ circular letter was wrong in O a sertingi that any person who atteeded Or Voted; or acted at any of the. meetings alluded to; were guilty of a tnisderneanoitr, becatase,, he Said,ain that case; . any person whb aitande'd innocently; without ing any 'alit in the business, or who even attended for the, ptireOse of dispersing the Meeting, might be i arrested and held d bail. That was ihe Objealiot taken by the Right HOP. and Learned Gentleman but ,he never had ,questiOned the legality Of the Construaidn put upon the Conviititioa Aa, dr its applicability to meetings of the deScripticin in ques tion. If he (Mr, Pole) %yds' wrong' in hig re cot upon this aubjea;e'ir the Right Hcin. and Gentled Gentleman had really doubted the legality of the proceedings of the Irish Gdeernment, was it not most strauge and uniccOentable that he• bad: merely contented himself with moving for pape!s, and that he had never btOught forwarl any specific Motion against the Irish Government fur apling gaily e was it not most strange and unaccountable,. that if all the Gentlemen on the Other side theivght that the Irish Government aled illegally upon that occasion, that not one of the:ii had thought it nea cessary to bring the matter before the HboSe, though it sat for months after the discussion respect ing the circular letter. The question respecting the claims of the Catholics was brought on after the motion of the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman relative to the conduct of the Irish Government ; if the Gentlemen Oppesite thought that the Govern ment had a&ed illegally towards the Catholics, surely upOri that occasion they would have men tioned it. He attended the House during the de bate upon the Catholic Que st i on , thoug h he took no part in i 3, int - the purpose of defending the It isli Government, if any attack hKI been made upon them, but not one word respeaing the illegality of the condo& of the Irish Government dropped trona any one Gentleman on the Other side of the House. But he' would menti on one more circumstance; which would put the matter out of all doubt :,an Hon: Gentleman on the other side of the House gave titmice, last Session, of a motion to repeal the Convention Act ; he did not bring forward that me (ion ; and in stating his reason for not doing so, he praised the Irish 'Government fur the leniency of their condua, and said lie was glad to find that they did not mean tit enforce the Convention Law. ats (Mr. Pole) felt it his duty to set the Hen, Gr. tleman right upon the subjea;and he expressly told that Gentleman at the time, that the Irish Govern ment most certainly would enforce the Conventien Act, if the circumstances of the daSe rendered it ne cessary. The Hon. Gentleman, however, did nor faring forward his motion; Thus the 'matter stood at the end of last Session. When, therefore, he re turned to Ireland at the conclusion of it, he had every reason to believe that the conduct of the Irish Government was fully approved of by that House s and they had no reason to suppose that an idea was entertained by any one man that they had acted in any shape or form whatever contrary tolthe law.—[We regret that the extreme length of the preceding debate, at the lateness of the hour at which. Mr. Pole spoke, renders it impossible to givethe rtmander of his 'vary excellent speech in de tail.]—Mr.- Pole then proceeded to state, that the Catholic Committee formed in 1793, was re vived in I nee and held its sittings in 181.0. The assembly, it was knoivrt; was not sitialy lawful, and this stated, it had been asked, if it was unlaw ful, why was it not put down earlier than it was 1, To this the answer was, they were anxious to treat the Catholic body With' the greatest lenity, and with the utmost forbearance, and therefore, being less stria' in enforcing the law than they would,have otherwise been in a case where any Other class of subjels was conderned. It was a mistake ata .sup pose the Convention AO was framed for any, par ticular sea. Had any other body proceeded so far, it would-have been attempted to bring it to bear on them. The Committee was suffered to go on for some time, till it was found they had recourse to every thing that could influence the public mind. They had all the forms of aParliament. 'They had their ComMitteea, their Sub ComMittees, their Coin mittees of Grievances, their private and public Re dressors, &c. &c. Their proceedings were such, that•even- in their own opinion they went -too far, and were afraid of the consequences. On one oc casion, one of the Members called out to a person who was taking notice of their proceedings, " VVa are going rather too fir, to take notice of that," to which the person so addressed, replied, " I was aware of that myself, and had already 'shut my book." It was when they had it in contemplation greatly to increase ai eir numbers that the Cir cular was issued. They had, however, been censured, as having interposed at an improper , time, at a time when they were about to become more respeaable than ever. This, however, was not the fad. Lord French and others,' the, most resp from hese se mos least eytea.o:vtlnlteliatkieblolelealeiuerlcnt:cetioilnaritl.andfealiii.dttidi their gly it .:Mausbody,csiot)eeyerse;:tl:lobai stop, s, a griltee d seso:fpiNttr\i,o a letial l lril r tial,e e ien, t reo l tete C al i tliv y nc:l:ii acdt e kisoo c ent e utdoi yy d per mitteds itioual had The a small body of the Committee to meet from time to time; and from th s conduct it 'had been said, that they had weakly abandoned a plan rash ly adopted, and that their conduct was marked -by madness, folly, intemperance, and intoleranceee , The Right Honourable Gentlaman then proceeded to describe the p, oceedings of Ile Irish' Catholics,