The Sun. — London, England, 1846-05-29 00:00:00

! I ascertained by experience. That experience he believed he had attained, and the truth which resulted was, that the !and had been bought with the perfect understanding that it was bought with the incusehraneee upon it. (Hear.) But the argument was as to what was the amount of the charges upon the land, hut he must at the same time state what his feeling was respecting these various declarations. For him self, he allowed that he was dusted with the declaratien of Mr. Maculloch. He would adduce the evidence of Mr. Maculloch, than whom no higher authority could be adduced. The Noble Lord then read a statement from Macullech, to show that the facts were as he had stated. The Earl of CL A R ENDON—What is the date? Lord ASHBURTON—The date is 1814. —( Leughter.) A mistake had evidently been made, but as Lord John Russell stated, that mistake was fatal. ( Cheers.) Lord John Russell had proposed a fixed duty of es. a quarter. Whether that was right or wrong, it was perfectly evident that the agri- Culture ought to be protected, and that the demand ought tobe rendered independent of the supply from foreign competition. But it wa s thought that by a little stimulation the parties would be made to provide the supply. Now the question was, whether the farmer could be stimulated to p-ovide the supply, without ksaign interference, and the rule used was, that as they knew What could be got out of a bad horse by a pair °f spurs, they s'iotild use the stimulus of the spur in order to ascertain wdat they could obtain from that source. From what he could understand, he would venture to assert that the returns would give the valid price of the produce, but it appeared that the prise depended on the value of the produce, Ind that when the returns were below certain amounts the slumber inclined to obtain farms was such that there was no seduction of rent wt en the farms were let. He thought that the sinister was a bold titan who would venture to assert that corn Fuld not be prod seed on the continent at a cheaper rate, when of equal quality, than it could be produced in this country . From a return of the several markets, it appeared that where there were equal charges on the land, there were also equal P r ice& And when the Noble Lord cited this principle, he might well adduce the supply of food from Norfolk. But the re was another f rom Prussia. But what was the statem ent? ^II Y, that Prussia and England were on equal terms, although In attempt had been made to place England and Ireland on the same level. The Noble Lord had said that what was a pro tection to England was a protection to Ireland also. In the latter country it appeared that the charges were laid upon the land, amounting to 2d. per acre. This included the land tax, the poor-law. and every possible charge. Yet he was bound to acknowledge that there was only a problematical statement to this effect, and it should be recollected that it was a general understanding that the manure produced on a farm should be consumed upon it, and that by this means the whole of the advantages obtained from the farm would be expended on the soil of which it was composed. It should be recollected that this land could not be improved, or the land preserved, Without the value of the stock it had upon it being taken into account. This was the great deficiency, and no law could Possibly provide a remedy, as he would contend. The next Popular error to which he would allude was that which would snake the price of labour to be apparently independent of the Price of food, and that as bread was cheap the price of labour Wpnld be low. T o t hi s he would only adduce the information Z bia the Parliame n t ary reports, an d to these he m i ght a dd t h e ntage of his o wn k now l e d ge. I t appeared from the reports of the of Pa r li amentary inquiries that the labourers in the north EuropeHe bad were i n th e h a bi t of enjoying meat once a week. es ee:nad h ear d that there was a report that in Ireland eggs Acre sold at sixpence a dozen, but the grand difficulty was to assertthaaitn where the sixpence was to come from. The consequence eggs were scarce.—(Cheers.) Now, it appeared by th e simple allusion that the price of food did depend upon flecfpriee of labour, and that the elements of food, pi pulation, labour are the main elements of income, and that on in ,..vo_tnee the price of food depended. If they were to take a P eu g T 1. agricultural district, as for instance the east of Lin the,: ' r es they would have a clear reason for the grounds of h re e onelusion. H e was a ware that some objection might be t to this, b u t th us m u c h he would assert, that where hrice ands were cultivated by manual labour there the ear s e f, labour might be readily ascertained.—( Hear, they ) a gradual means were used he believed that d evee e pld be no difficulty, but where the price ot labour was ' Ol as acne upon the produce of the soil, the price of wheat L ords ' l s i . main element of the consideration before their ruled'' and that the remuneration of labour would ind u _. for some years to come by the reward which w o „, l ;eY was able to obtain for its exe-tions. What i`lu be the immediate consequences of this measure? i sat ia.hat the landlords of the country would suffer, and that cutely throngs them the farmers, and ultimately the that ..ers would be injured. That was the kind of language suppo thPse who were oepnsed to this measure held out ; aud of '' ° g , as he apprehended, that would be the result, he was te„ P n ini " that the language was completely justifiable. The therst oft l began to suffer a little, and then began to o r/ screw, and the labourer, not understanding this sort Political economy, and being sanctioned by the Parliament, ';p'toted naturally resist any reduction of his wages, and resist hYafattempts to deprive him of any portion of his necessaries. the would be the operation of this Bill, always supposing that porn, He sanctioned the proposed alteration of the duties upon Re n• He wished to address a few observations to the Right incom es Bench, that the clergy would be affected, and their what would be reduced—at least those of not a filed tenure. hat had been stated by a Noble Lord on a former occasion was quite true. That nothing could be more critical than the poli tical conduct of the parochial clergy of this country on the pre sent measure. If this measure was not intended to diminish the price of corn, what then was the meaning of the Bill ? (Cries of " Hear, hear.") Very little foreign corn was ad- Sifted except in times of scarcity. Every clergyman of the Church of England would be reduced in his income, in the Porportien of two-sixths, so that the man with 300/. a-year W ould hare his income reduced to 200/.—( Hear, hear.) And e t ' e e n supposing the position of those who advocated this measure the true, and that no diminution in tithes would ensue, why Life clergymen would be no better of.—(Hear, hear.) Their st a _ a ,thhips mu s t b e per f ect l y we ll aware, t h at if t h ey l e t th e set° Joto theo of their own hands, they virtually exposed them attacks of those without and left themselves Pcor cry ele, defenceless. It was a mi s chi e vou s thi ng to s e t up the fortcheap bread, an d th at moc k ery o f t h e poor man ' s com moroler n it was backed and supported by the advocacy of a the m ie .f the Crown.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") If protectiolantrY make experiments at all, let them trifle with the taniatie,o and of if things of comparatively inferior import their they found the removal of protec ts_ minor articles were attended with advantage, then c oming Lordships' House would be more justified in operation tthereesolution which would aanction the resent measure. It was his belief that d atable in` of the country would always be found, mainly attri the eu to some difficulty in the means of circulation. When of sh rr ennY got into any difficulty it would cause nine : tenths that e distress that mieht abound. He could show, in fact, l e i „ the distress which las existed in the manufacturing dis til e p l ,!„e°u l sl be distinctly traced to circumstances which had Wool to do with the direction of the monetary system. He Which call the attention of the House to the . probable effects of the this measure would have on the colonies. The people h e e t , Canadas were ready at a moment's notice to throw off th e Canadas fe e l. En glish yoke. Their Lordships knew what the French e; t ogs were and all that feeling of nationality the people of of n h a i d a Possessed. They were allied to France by ties I° °d, and by a long formed connexion, and if the measure We bloods carried, it would, by rendering England dependent h i n , them for a supply of corn, render them g ePendent of ns, and give them an excuse for Itiexing themselves and their interests to the power of f t :lnce. That was the opinion of two French gentlemen, le Capitaine and M. Paphen, who were high authorities. off Lower Canadas the French influence was predominant ri 2 . the inhabitants, and the British Government had no more il a ‘ i? o t t. !o th a t country t h an the French or any other continental 1:, possessed. It might, perhap s , b e we ll t o argue th a t thi s t'ainre would be a benefit f or a ll th e wor ld ; b u t were t h ey ees _ be come the adv oca t es o f t h e h uman race, and to be con pielequ:vith the affairs of all manki n d? H e t h oug ht th e mo r e 'ta r t course would he to be concerned with only our own s u b ject -( Hear, hear.) Th e N o bl e E ar l who proposed this 1 0 ,2 told the House that all Europe was going to fol siiiv e the example set them by the free-traders of England. measure met with great praise and admiration, of :every oiae said that it did not exaatly suit them. It was le the mita' eof things that every country was t) assimi eand hold the same opinions with regard to these points. A n d even let all the w irld be of one opinion with respect to offree trade operations, he questioned very much whether " o l f l it!le world would be any better for those opinion'.—(Cries di • Hear, hear.") The entire c.f the civilised vvorld w r a f s funned into states, provinces, and kingdoms, placed under t 1 t overnments, have : mutual was very desirable that, as fa : r as sible, they should have mutual opinions on different points, v ent a general arnaleamation of interests. as it were, to pre. be war, and conserve the good of mankind. What would e : t t he result if the ' principles of free trade could be universally % bli shed ? This P count P ry might become a large manufac anrdLfgors_l°P, bnt its agricultural interests would be neglected, their sleeves—this coun try ~...7n t go .n countries would laugh th era u t 7 l e dependent on them for in n the supply of food—at the d e i tusrl4 , , 7 o e n d destruction of boasted British. independence and the trios of its interests. That whichwasddeesosirriapbtfloet of in. d ° l4tre was , that they should have every resource; and of international commerce, so that eachin 11.7" r ees would not be left wholly dependent ee; aristocracy of that House, and the great gentry in upon a i n t c s o th o e w , r i n . t rY, would be interested in preserving h° eh they had so long and so eminently flourished. If the ptotec the their Lordships should be of opinion, notwithstarnedttenog. great prosperity which had attended the system of sh.. , teat the interests of the country require the concession P of With Cherished opinions they would yield it, although, perhaps, h t l'i , l - " ea reg of ret t , ,he y c e o t a w nt i r t y h . the hope that it would be for the Bat do not let their Lordships think that any such anticipated benefit would be derived from this er that its consequence would tend in any te e ' 4 %1 interests. It was a great mistake to suppose that n . ny . ;:,,,,easure which had for its object the distraction of those prin t i 5 . 7 4, which had raised the country to its present patamoun a tt P_'° ll would result otherwise than in universal dissatisfaction d o wer, who for the authors of the measure.. (The Noble d ow " , who throughout was almost inaudible in the gallery, sat , r t i t l _amid s t loud cheering from all parts of the House.) of thee Marquis of LAN DOWNS said he rose in that stage nighte d bate, which was now the third, and he hoped the last of the debate--( Cries of express his sentiments L ion. He should protni s for along time in the considera " No, no," and " Yes, yes")— on the measure now under °h e them that he would not d tam them he should be extreme] them he was about to make, and prevented giving his yoplinoFry that any Noble Lord should be taken. The Noble Lord who beforeh their final decision was .(sh :d i, just sat down need not be very much alarmed that he :)larquis of Lansdowne) was going to enter into any eoon the "awful subject" of posit cal economy, which h assertedfhadi, been so described by en a young man, and !eord John Russell twenty years ago, be fore he held office under the Cro Was represented as describing politicar s o ap awful kithen, and the Noble Lord nwilooolelayt Nle Lord snaresented it to be an awful subject neju't sat down (Lord aAshburton) 4w that he was about to enter into any r", that subject, except in as far as it was conneetectiwirtohf the esent question. In rising, however, he would not barea_nswering the Noble Lord (Lord Ashburton), to follow his 4, to e ePt rather than his example in abstaining from entering tt os , any subject that did not enter fully into the present c lues _ 1 / ;' , and especially the consideration of the burdens on land. t ho :ould l eave that sub j ect—that most important subje c t-- ti ts , gls he could not view it in any other sense than as a ques retist°°f jus ice to the proprietors of land. His Noble Fi lent el. ea ue held awar o e of inione the opiwhich nions he he (thad he Mneve arqu r is o more f Lanstrongl sdowne) sert e d p tle, than when advising proceedings connected with h ear, tquestion before their Lordships' House. (Hear, Plorel l But, i mportant as was t h e su bj ect, h e im fie t hem to draw their atte n ti on f rom i t now , a nd ri e `: h ° that question before the House, the greatest, if which his Noble th e s , ad so correctly described as one of not el et e t leate s t su bj ect t h at ever comman d ed their consideration. seej, e g t e question which was now before them had been the of t c :f debate and discussion for many years . past in and and a rliament, and by assemblies in every district, town ser e , 'age in the country. The question, therefore, dial as rlninewhat of a new aspect, as presented to their Lord , sigetn Ain The question at the present time came before ' her Af n . the shape of a Bill that had r ceived the sanction of 1 in aierie" st rs Government and likewise sanctioned by a The oe the other Heuse of Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) 'le Lord (Stanley), who has been absent from the th ° , n ‘e or this ening until now told them that that decision on t heip Hill should t • n their Lordship'' minds he n set th °P'ra e o . e decision of the same House in 1842 again 4 ceision now. The House of Commons of 11142 against acid a'so, eV fl the House of Commons of 1844. But unless they were to suppose that the House of Commons had become servile and infirm in foar or five years, he did not know why the decision now come to, which had resulted from mature deliberation ikquiry on the subject, should lie set aside. He knew, that another Noble Lord, who had spoken on the previous ing, and whose sentiments were entitled to be heard with every attention and respect, Lad told them that, though the decision of the House of Commons had been arrived at by a clear majority, it was not a clean majority,—(Hear, bear, from the cross benches.) He would ask them, were former majorities more clean than this ? Nay, he would add, had there ever been a decision come to that was more free from the exercise of authority and extraneous influence than the dcci;ion on the Corn Bill in the other House? All who had been in the practice of leading and guiding the delibera tions of the other House—and it was not for them to question their motives when by a hsrge majority they had sent up this Bill, with the object of settling a difficult and most importan question. He knew some Noble Lords on the cross benche it bad stated that some of the public declarations of the leading parties who supported this measure was different from that which they entertained in private ; but he did not profess to drag these parties to the confessional, or to drag their sup porters there.—( Hear, hear.) It was sufficient for him that they had altered their minds, and, having so altered, sup ported the present measure.—(Hear, hear.) He tuck the de cision of the House of Commons as he found it on this mea sure, as the declaration of the representatives of the people. Before entering with his Noble Friend (Lord Ashburton) into the commercial phase of the question, he would say a few words on two points, which required to be considered as ne cessary and preliminary to the consideration of the general question. The first point was the political aspect of the ques tion, which was referred to by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, and also the Noble Lord who last addressed the House. The importance of being independent of foreign nations for the supply of food, and the political dangers of that dependence. He (Lord Lansdowne) would not revert to what was so forcibly stated by the Noble and Learned Lord who followed the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, and which also had been referred to by the Noble Earl behind him. He must observe, however, that that striking fact which had been so strongly put forward had not been net. The gigantic influence of Napoleon extended all over Europe. He employed every commercial means to ruin this country, and prevent a supply of food, but human interest was stronger than the power of Bonaparte, and his policy was defeated.—(Cheers. )- Look at the price of corn then, and contrast it with what it might have been had that policy been successful? But corn was coming in all the time. l'he power of Napoleon, great and paramount as it then was, did not succeed ; had it done so, corn, instead of selling at 105 s. a quartet would have been 1505.—( Hear, hear.) If no corn had come iu, ruin would have overtaken, not only those engaged in manufactures, but the farmers also. That importation of foreign corn was necessary to save the labouring classes from starvation and the farmers from ruin. But what said the Noble Lord, and the Noble Lord opposite, following him in the same line of argument, in talking of the danger of depending on foreign countries for a supply of food ? They rested their case in respect of this point on the present sliding-scale. Now, in his opinion if there was one law so contrived more than another to create this danger it was the sliding-scale—( Hear, hear.)— because, under the operation of a fixed duty, or free trade, they could regulate the quantity of corn from foreign countries that might be required, and what corn-growers in those countries might readily expect in regard to the supply. But with a sliding-scale, they proclaimed their danger, as far as scarcity was concerned, to all foreign countries, and if those countries, as had been represented, were disposed to conspire against this country, they could easily do it, for at the very moment when the sliding-scale proclaimed the scarcity of corn in this country, they cenld easily cut off the supplies, and reduce the country to starvation.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") He was persuaded there was infinitely more danger in the sliding scale than in any other system of law that could be adopted. Yet this system had been proclaimed by Noble Lords on the other side. The Noble Lord (Lord Ashburton) had in illustra tion of this subject, referred to the cotton trade as showing the danger which would arise in any rupture with America on ac count of cur being dependent on that country at present for sue plies. Some Noble Lords were alarmed at the thought of giving the f .reigner a control over the supply of corn, but in his opinion quite as much mischief, misery, and starvation would follow a sudden refusal on the part of America to suply this country with cotton as with corn. ( Hear, hear.) And yet the very last act of the Government, on which the Noble Lord alto had last addressed the House, was to reduce the duty on the importa tion of cotton from America. Upon the subject, therefore, of rendering themselves dependent upon foreign countries, they ought not to trouble themselves for a single moment.—( Hear. hear.) Now there was another point connected with this Bill in a preliminary point of view, to which he must direct their Lord ship's attention. A strong opinion prevailed amongst some Noble L. rds that the passing of this Bill would be attended with con siderable alteration in the social state of the country. He knew it had been verc much the fashion, not merely amongst Noble Lords on the cross benches, but amongst eminent persons both in this and other countries, to say that this measure would pro duce a great alteration in the social condition of this country ; and he had heard very conspicuous persons in neighbouring counties pronounce a sort of panygeric upon the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government for having under taken to work out a revolution in the social system of England. Now nothing he thought was further from the Right Hon. Baronet's mind in bringing on this Bill than working out a great revolution in the social condition of England. Nor did he think there was any reason for troubling themselves with such an apprehension, for landed property would always have attached to it a large degree of importance, while the possession would always exercise some control over the decisions of the Legislature. Even in countries of a purely commercial character, such as Holland, which was described as a country which could extract nothing it wanted out of its own soil, the possessors of landed property exercised a certain, indeed a high degree of influence on their particular legislators. —( Hear, hear.) He did not at all apprehend, then, that this Bill would diminish the power or influence of the aristocracy, or of the country gentry, who were described by the Noble Lord, the late Secretary of State for the Colonies, as being an essential part of the aristocracy of the country.— ( Hear, hear.) Having disposed of these two preliminary points, he now came to the consideration of the tommercial principle involved in this measure, but here he must stop to remark that he did approve of the Bill, because he altogether approved of its provisions.—(Protectionsst cheers.) In sup porting the Bill they were acting as practical men, relying upon the experience they had had of protection, while those who opposed it were not supporting practical, but purely theo retical views, for most of the restrictions which had been placed upon trade were intended to be experiments, and the corn laws as an experiment had failed. Now, hitherto all re strictions which had failed had been abandoned, and what strongly indicated the expediency of their abandonment was the. fact that those parties who were supposed to be most interested in them had never made an attempt to induce the Legislature to restore them. It was not as if they were now called upon to resist a change in a system which had for ages proved successful, but they were asked to do away with restrictions which were passed as an experiment, and which experience and observation had fully shown had failed.—(Hear, hear.) While,' on the other hand, the experience of the last thirty or forty years had sufficiently served to convince them that changing the re strictive system invariably resulted in benefiting the country and improving those trades which it was thought it protected. Look, for instance, at the experience they had derived from the change which I.ad been made on silk, hops, and kelp. His Noble Friend who last addressed their Lordships had told them that Mr. Huskisson had once given an opinion in favour of the protective system. Now, in his opinion, one of the greatest benefits M., Huskisson conferred on this country was doing away with the duty on silk.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. Huskisson was terribly reviled for that act, but Mr. Huskisson said he would persevere, notwith stasiding he might be called hard-hearted, and the roll proved most triumphant, for at the time the charge was made there were only 200,0001bs of silk manufactured in this country, while now there were 600,000Ibs.—(Hear, hear. ) His Noble Friend the late Secretary for the Colonies had boldly declared that the abolition of protection had proved highly injurious to the shipping trade, but they had never heard of an attempt on the part of interested parties to re store the whole system. His Noble Friend, however, must have looked at a wrong paper, or he would not have made the statement he did. His Noble Friend had stated that there rLi had :.b4,lsdy b e Lordship.' npu:t accurate htpaeo table, lf i eot found dhe diminution r m ot i then ac t h i ye n her aay o 4r f lb e3e English tonnage i n th e y ear carefullybeen tiha prepared teeriey wlaaisd and tole rablyupon increase t heir of 2,618,000 tons, as compared with the period when the duty had been reduced. But there was a subsequent reduction o f d ut i es , an d yet with than reduction the number stood thus—in 1832, the tonnage of Eng land was 1,936,000 tons, w hil e i n t h e year 1845, it was 3,660,000 tons.—( Hear, hear.) Hs could hardly believe then that the shipping trade was suffering ureter the relaxation of protection, and nothing, he thought, could be more conclusive in favour of this Bill than the figures he had given.--( Hear, hear.) But it wa s said the shippi ng t ra d e o f f ore i gn countries ' had increased since the abolition of protection. Well, he ad mitted it, and gloried in the result. He wee rejoiced to hear that these measures had been conducive to advance the in terest of other countries as well es their own, and God forbid that it should ever be objected to any measure tl.at it was calculated to lead to such a result..—( Cheers. ) In the year 'B5, Mr. Pitt, in his statement of Political Eco nomy, did not consider it as strange to his principle ; when he endeavoured to avail himself he did not see any great success liable to result from its application. He entertained a com mercial proposition for a free trade with Ireland ; that was founded on a principle of improvements in commerce. There were not wanting persons of high authority, like him ; and people out of doors, who then, as now, saw in the adoption of this proposition the ruin and destruction of England. A near relative of my Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies (Colonel Stanley), whom he had the honour to know, came forward on that occasion, and presented a pe tition enforcing it, in which he stated what the peti tioners stated—that they desired to be heard by counsel, for that was about to be done which would put the finishing stroke to the cotton manufacture of England. It was the ad mission of Irish fustians and cottons which caused this alarm, said they stated that the working people, manufacturers, and their children, would be sacrificed. The petition was not adopted, and what was the event ? These cottons were ad mitted, and he certainly regretted to say, that Ireland did not now produce enough for her own consumption ; for since that time the cotton manufacture of England was They next came to another extension really increased. g • r anxious to get at the root of the of this system ; that app r H o h o a u t s i o e n , a o n f d t hhee Noble protective system, fo commercial treaty with France was say proposed. with t l h t e before the House in was concurrencea.debated iandin in that came before who was sitting onthtehefocrinro=sofbreenscohlo. resolutions, instead in m at e e a a s d ure o s f being placed in the form of a Bill. They were placed any alteration authority to Mr. Pitt, a k ithatng form in order n t to that Bill. that The euster treaty y o opportunity t debatedn though in a different walk of life—a friend of House, and a person of scarcely inferior h i e ty nf la i n late Secre tary of the Colonies—he meant the Bishop of Llandaff o r Dr. W a tt s —took in his notions of protection the sa me views as his Noble Friend. He told the House that they were throwing over all the experience of their ancestors. In that opi nion he followed, or rather preceded, the example of his Noble Friend, and read the preamble of an Act of Chat lea 11. The preamble of this Act set forth, that as it had become universally known that the wealth of this country was disappearing altogether in consequence of the money seat nut of the country to purchase French nines—(Laughter). The experience of the ancestors to which the Noble Lord had re ferred might be very good, and he revered the experience of their ancestors, as they founded the great principles and con stitution of the country. tie believed they had laid die go vernment on the suhraepiss of the st n fo e undation, country. anti cootributed much to n the prosperityßut he would say that his respect did not extend to any o f th ose nostrums which they applied fro m time to time by Act of Parliament. They applied all those nostrums, and invented various schemes founded on t h e principle of protection, which uniformly failed in their e ffect. If the Noble Duke who presided at the Board of Trade had leisure (but he believed that he had not) to look through all the papers and memorials which had from time to time been sent to the board, from tho.e Papers they would fled that the commerce of the country had had mere dangerous and hair-breadth escapes than were even encountered in the adventures of Sinbad the Sailor. The commerce of this clutitty had underg me various improvements and alterations, all of which were to have seriously injured it; but they had al wsys ended by the commerce of the country finding itself, aster the lapse of a few years, in a higher position than it s hal attained before. Therefore, he again said, thae he thought that experience was rather against than ha favour of protection. He knew that it would be said by many that they were preprred to abandon every thing if the principle of it were not for the farmers of England. Nothing could be more erroneous than to suppose that the farmers, with all the advantages of the wealth and prosperity of this country—with a growing population—derived their sub sistence from the sickly atmosphere of protection instead of their own industry and labour. His Noble Friend had voted Mr. Huskisson as the w'sest of commercial statesmen, and said that he had agreed to the maintenance of the prohibitory sys tem. He thought, when his Noble Friend told the House when he qunted the opinions of Mr. Huskisson. as given in 1815, and also his last speech of IR2B. he entirely suppressed all mention of his opinions in 1815. His Noble Friend had said that Mr. Huskisson was of our commercial statesmen, and he refused his authority to confirm these opinions. the w iseq said that He would beg leave to read some remarkable passages in the last speech of Mr. Huskisson. Me (Mr. Huskisson) had said that to whatever extent they attributed to other evils the present state of the country, the corn-laws were themselves a burthen and a restraint upon the manufactures and the commerce of the country. How was it possible for his Noble Friend, after he had read that speech in 1830, deliberately to come down to the House and quote the authority of Mr. Huskisson as enter taining views coinciding with his own in condemning the corn-laws. He believed that there were not among the natives of the kingdom a class of per sons better informed and more long-sighted in any transaction of business which referred to themselves than Scotch far mers. He had a list in his hand of six or seven large farms in Scotland, in an important part of the country, which had been let lately, and one as lately as a fortnight since, when this Bill had passed the House of Commons, and a great many of these lettirgs had taken place at an advance of from 10 to 25 to 30 and 40 per cent. Were these unfortunate Scotehmen to be held up to public derision ? Were they to be handed down to posterity as Scotch dupes ?—(Laughter.) Memorials were presented by the Board of Trade—deputations of Members of Parliament attended to represent the infamy which would follow repealing the duty on flax. He would trouble their Lordships for a few moments, and these were the last figures he should trouble their Lordlips with, to the effect that would follow the withdrawal of the protection from flax. The produce of Irifh flax in the year 1841, the year before the withdrawal of protection, was 25,009 tons. The year after protection was withdrawn, the quantity of flax produced in Ireland was 36,000 tons—so that it was clear that when protection was re moved, in spite of all the dreaded anticipation, there was a great increase in the produce of wool. Lord Devon reports in his Commission, that sat in the north of Irk land, that they had examined a Mr. Blake, who stated that the cultivation of flax had greatly increased since protection was removed. Mr. Maculloch stated, in answer to a question put to him, as to whether he thought flax was a remunerative crop, that of late years it had become very remunerative. Their Lordships had therefore the evidence of persons residing in the country, the best evidence which could be accumulated, to show that the removal of protection from flax was followed by a great increase in the cultivation of that article. But it might be said that this was owing to the in crease of the linen manufactures, that it so happened that protec tion to linen was withdrawn at the same time. He was of opinion with Mr. Huskisson, though not his earlier opinion, but in his latter opinion, that the corn laws were an impediment to the progress of manufacture. He contended, therefore, that all restrictions when removed had been followed by an im mense increase in the production of those articles. if those persons who fancied that the removal of restrictions would have reduced this country from its rroud pre-eminence to the lowest state of degradation, and if they were to rush to those scenes were desolation and ruin were expected, and thought they would see nothing but ruin, desolation, misery, and wretchedness, they would be surprised at seeing an im mense district in a most flourishing and happy condition. He was told that they thought too little of the home market to the agricultural interest. All fears with reference to the removal of protection in the manufacturing districts and the county of Lancashire, have, according to accounts which he had lately received, been entirely removed. He would call their Lord ships' attention to the immense increase which had taken place in the value of manufactured goods as comps , rer , with agricul tural. In the former case, the increase bed been 6,300 per cent., whereas agriculture had advanced only 3,500 per cent. He therefore considered it very short-sig' ted not to consider the manufacturing interests as part of the na tional prosperity of the country. He could never bring him self to consider the prosperity of manufactures as a sort of morbid secretion which the State physician was to keep down by a restrictive regimen. On the contrary, lie considered that the freest scope should be given to manufactures, and that the workmen should be enabled to obtain their food at the cheapest possible price, —( Hear, hear.) Re thought that a fixed duty was preferable to the alterations now proposed, and he did so because of the advantage which would accrue to the revenue of the customs ; and because he wi•h d that in all great changes the prejudices and sentiments of all should be consulted, and not suddenly interfered with. By adopting it, the chanse would be gradual and moderate, and prove satisfactory to the agricultural interest. Those were is opinions some time since ; and if he had the settlement of the question now, those would be his opinions still.—( Hear, hear.) The question which he had now to answer was, whether he would adopt that principle when the Bill went into com mittee. He had no hesitation in answering that he would not, because, though he might be nominally voting for such an amendment. if it were possible, he would be really voting against the Bill ' • and the consequence, he fi r mly beli eve d, wou ld he, that instead of a fixed duty being eventually passed, their Lordships would be called upon to pass a totally different Bill.---(Hear, hear.) His hopes, as connected with the fall or rise of provisions, in consequence of this measure, were not up to the depression which was predicted on the one side, nor to the exaggeration on the (Aber. The way he thought it would operate would be by a gradual and certain increase of commerce which would be placed on a more solid foundation. —( Hear, hear.) He was confident that the effect would not be injurious to the British farmer, and he would apply in re ference to its operation the lines of one of their most beau tiful poets. " Trade's prowl empire bastes to swift decay. As ocean sweeps the laboured mole awa." He was willing to adopt the two fol:owing lines in-addition— " A self-dependent power can storms abide, As rocks resist the billows and the tide," And with that confidence he would sit down and give his vote for the second reading of the measure. Lord Beaumont, the Earl of Eglinton, and the Earl of Essex then rose together, and for several minutes the House presented a scene of the most indescribable confusion, some calling for one Noble Lord to be heard, and some for another. Amidst the uproar, The Duke of RICHMOND rose and moved that the Earl of Eglinton be heard. Earl GREY moved as an amendment that the Earl of Essex be heard. The LORD CHANCELLOR put the question to the vote, and declared that the "not contents" had it. The Duke of RICHMOND said that the " contents " had it. Earl GREY—I say the" not contents" have it. The Earl of EGLINTON at length gave way, and The Earl of ESSEX proceeded to address the House.—He was sorry that he should have occasioned such trouble ; but he was desirous to express the opinions he entertained with regard to this great question, and as he was so little accustomed to ad dress the House, he hoped for its favourable consideration while he made a few observations on the subject. He had come to the conclusion he had entertained with anxious de liberations of great donht, and he did not found them on the opinions of the Brights and Cobdens of Manchester, but upon thorough conviction. He had had much doubt as to the repeal of these laws, and he should still feel much doubt in his mind were it not that the opinions of her Majesty's Ministers had brought forward such arguments as they did in support of the repeal of the restriction en the trade and commerce of the country. But whatever doubts he had on his mind as to these laws they were removed, and he now had none.—( Hear, hear.) But long before this measure was brought forward, he was of opinion that the cheapening of corn would be of great benefit to the farmers, for it would allow them the means of fattening cattle at a much more remunerative rate than at present.—( Hear, hear.) He was also of opinion that this measure would greatly improve the sale of cattle, and he was sure that they should all live to see the benefit of the repeal of the corn-laws to this country.—( Hear.) He was not one of those who impressed upon the people that this was a measure which would be of great benefit to the country. He did not seek to be popular by using such arguments, but he was not for making the people believe that high prices were for the benefit of the people. He was for making the farmers be lieve that the new system of farming was the better ; and he was for impreFsing on them the necessity of doing away otitis the old and antiquated system of farming. He would take that opportunity of doing away with an unfavourable impres sion which had been made with respect to himself at some of the farmers' meetings a short time ago, where it was stated that he was careless of the interest of the small farmers. He had never said anything which could lead any one to so repre sent him. What he had said was, that the repeal of these laws would do more injury to the small farmers, would injure thof.e who farmed land in a small way, and who had not capital at all to enable them to make the necessary improve ments in agriculture. He bad so expressed himself, and he was at a loss to know how it could be expected otherwise. There was one thing to be very much regretted when consider ing this question, and that was, there was an impression amongst those who were ambitious to rise and to be of importance in their various parishes, that it was thought by them to have large farms was to be the most respectable. This false feeling made many take more laud than they had capital to work to their advantage. This taking of large farms they thought the most necessary to their prosperity. Now what said the late Lord Leicester, the great promoter of the agricultural interests, and the great authority on all that affected the farmers' interests? He said that he would never let a farm to any one who had not at least 101. per acre capital. The consequence of this was, that he had brought round a class of farmers who were the most prosperous and happy, and who reflected credit upon the country. If farms were to be taken •n a different system to the present one of letting out small portions of land, they would find men of large capital who would embark in agriculture. It was the opinion of the Noble Lords on the cross benches that it was not for the benefit of agriculture for men of capital, who were acquainted with agricultural pur suits, to bring their capital into such a speculation, but such was not his opinion. He was not at one period in favour of free trade principles, but he was now converted to such an opinion. He could only say that his conversion was pure. He had nothing to expect from her Majesty's Ministers—he sought no reward ; on the contrary, he had made a great sacrifice ; for it was a sacrifice to lose the good opinion of the farmers of England. He had made that sacrifice, because it was for the benefit of the country 'at large. He could not sit down without expressing his regret that those who had brought forward this measure had not considered more :particularly the burdens upon the land with a view to their alleviation. He believed that the Ministry did not expect that evils would result from these burdens, which would make it necessary that they should take them into their particular consideration. Ile thought that *ow they had an admirable opportunity of con sidering this subject, and of alleviating the burdens under r which the agriculturist was laboing,nfrortreedeid yearsnot consider that that the continuance : . 'of pro tec tion fi Believ ing he did that a great advocated mg as inn that those who had formerly reference h lf equivalent nutesftoirout.l.: question —seeing injuries sm changeicte h d a b d y t t a h k e e s n e p b l u a r e d e e i n n s. had formerly advo ;also, that those who the amount—seeing, contented with no duty at rated a small fixed duty werenowthe period t hought arrived all—and believing as he did, t h at a 403. duty had now reduced their claims to exactly one- a betterwhen that la ws they opinion, • instead of at once yielding to the popular and former of endeavouring to retain former opinions , must t uld be adopt rescinded, th e bed wiser eour vet e t bar nony where bitterness at present prevailed ; they w ould extend By the adoption of this policy, they would re store extend commerce, and establish on a more friendly basis the relations of foreign countries. In conclusion, he would state t ha h ei a ain t ri, l ; ct e here h e a rw d :: e oa v n e pd r r y c - eos c iu o d n ne fidence in her Majesty's Ministers, and mire particularly in the sagacity of that able and accomplished s e t esnatwo few,n t r subject. n one, Lord ships to point out any counter-cheering.) — eir ( L H o a r a d r : one person who had been entirely con -(A aroundNhoibmle, L w f h r o d— h : ( 6 l You been wseor! and he h " e ) believed only those could lay claim to consistency who fled from the beginning urged the propriety of a total abolition of those laws. He did not, thi-tefore, see that those who had become converts to these opinions,could be greatly charged with inconsistency. Until they could prove that this country THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY _MORNING, MAY 29, 1846. was not in a progressive state—until they could prove that the wants of the population did not i nc reas e w i t h th e ir growing numbers—until they did all thi s , h e w o u ld rather trust to the sagacity and foresight of her M a j es ty' s Mi n i s t ers , who had, in his opinion, only introduced thi s measure a t a p e riod when it was really required. For hi mse lf h e wou ld on ly say, that even if he had not changed his opinion upon this subject he would never have joined in the outcry which bad been raised against Perhaps the most eminent statesman who had ever ruled the destinies of this great country. Whatever, therefore, might be the fate of this measure. whether it were to pass into a law, or whether it were to be rejected by their Lordships, this country still would be deeply indebted to that Minister for the series of admirable measures he had brought forward, and for his endea vours to raise the country from the slough of des pondency in which he had found it.—(lmme n se cheering.) The present measure was admitted by all to he not a factious one ; it .pos sessed in itself all the elements of success; and even if It should disappoint the expectations which had been formed of it, the country would acquit that Minister of any blame in conse quence. It would increase the comforts of the labouring classes, it would extend the advantages of commerce, which under the protective system had been paralysed, and when time should have obliterated all party feelings, the name of this Minister would be looked up to by all posterity with gra titude and admiration. lie should give his hearty support to this measure. The Earl of EGLINTON said, that since he had the ho nour of seconding the address to her Majesty's speech from than e by v e robtruded s addressing himself eer y few w o theord words noticeto o their Lordships, and, f th er efore, he trusted they would excuse him thethe throne,House furtherhe had n on the present occasion. Like the Noble Earl , who had just sat down , he (Lord Eglinton) had no doubt of the propriety of the course he was pursuing , but , unlike him , he bad not changed his opinions—( Cheers and counter-cheers)— for he had adhered to those Conservative principles which, from the very first, he had advocated. He doubted not that it would be a wise and temperate course to modify opinions in order to insure the unanimity of a party, but there was a point beyond which they could not go. and where a blind obedience to the dictum of a leader would be most reprehensible. He was of opinion that they had never reached that point, and when they found the leader who had, in times gone pant, inculcated those principles, prostituting his excellent talents, and deserting those principles and the party who held them, he considered that further obedience to him would be most reprehensible. He did not wish to be personal, though on occasions like the present it was too much the habit to indulge in personality, and ascribe to those who . might differ from them, all kinds of improper and dishonourable motives. He would beg to say that he had to) much respect fcr those who occupied the Ministerial benches, too much respect for their Lordships' House for one moment to indulge in am observations of the kind. How much he might lament the course which they had judged it expedient to pursue, liow much he might blame their facility in yielding to a line of policy which he considered as pregnant with danger to the c untry, yet he believed they were ac much actuated for the general good as the warmest and bitterest of their opponents. And though it might appear very strange to him that out of a Cabinet of 13 one only should have been found to have come out unscathed from the furnace, still hi believed that her Ma jesty's Government were not actuated by any love of office, but that the party were influenced by an extraordinary want of firmness of purpose and a more extraordinary admiration of their leader, but he considered it a legitimate subject to inquire into a change of opinion. In the first place, the failure of the potato crop had been denied by the Noble Lerd in his opening speech upon the measure, as the influencing cause of the change, but he (Lord EgJington) must beg leave to differ from him, and exaggerated statements of a failure was the reason for the introduction of the measure. He did not mean to say that those statements were entirely without foundation, He did believe that there was a partial failure of the potato crop, but it was not of sufficient amount to involve the consequence of a famine. Some of the poorer inhabitants ran a risk of incur ring more than their usual quantum of suffering, and it cer tainly was the duty of Government to interpose to the best of their ability; and if he thought this Bill would hare the effect of relieving distress—if he considered that it would prevent the suffering of one poor family, he would support the Bill; but he did not think it would have any such effect. A great many measures could have been found to alleviate distress. An increase of the income-tax might have been imposed, but how the present measure could have the effect of providing against the famine in Ireland was quite out of his power to comprehend. There was no scarcity of provisions in Ireland ; the only scarcity that was felt there was a scarcity of money, and he could conceive no measure less calculated to benefit Ireland than the present. Ireland was strictly an agricultural c( - entry, and ;thousands of its acres were uncultivated, and if there was anything more incumbdnt on them than another, it would be to pass measures calculated to reclaim these lands. But he put it to them was the present measure calculated to have any such effect ? On the contrary, it put an end to all agricultural enterprise. But then, forsooth, they were told that they had been pampered into sloth by protection, and that competition would infuse life into them, and that where they at present grew three qrs. of wheat they would grow five qrs. But he did not understand how competition, which necessarily induced low prices, could have any such effect. Could the landowners, who depended for their incomes on the rents of their lands, afford to lay out the necessary expendi ture, which would involve the probability of the produce of five years instead of three.—( Hear, hear.) He was particu larly interested in the state of Scotland, and he believed that the present measure would be most injurious to the farmers in the western district of Scotland, who lived in the manner of labourers, he should like to know how they would be able to compete with the low-priced corn. They had laid out all their money on their ground, and now, when they expected to reap some return, they were to b e d e layed by a sup ply of corn, at a cheaper rate than they w e r e able to produce it. Bad land could not compete with the very low price, and it would be thrown back into grass, which it could hardly produce. Then, as regarded the principle of competition, suppose a new railway was to be started in competition against an old-established one, both having the same termini, he would put it to them, would it conduce to the prosperity of the old? And if they had cheaper fares, even under a better management, would it tend to make their dividends 5 per cent. instead of 3 ? If after the ample discussion whiol. /204 been given to thin mea sure and after the deliberate opinions of the people, it should be decided that the country must be governed on the principles of free trade, he for one was not prepared to say that that House should stand - in the way of the avowed wishes of the nation.—( Hear, hear.) As hereditary guardians of the people, as the protectors of their rights, as Peers of Great Britain. he called upon them to reject this Bill.—( Hear, hear.) Ho besought the Noble Duke, without whose assent this Bill could not appear before their Lordships, he besought him to steed forth once more as the protector of that country which he had so often saved. He called upon the Noble Lords opposite who adhered to those principles of protection which they had al ways advocated in common with himself though they differed very materially ou other points. Laws might be re-enacted, statutes might be repealed, but character once gone could never be regained. He besought their Lordships not to share in the degradation which this ill-omened measure had brought upon the public character of British statesmen—( Cheers) — and which he feared would cast a foul blot upon them in after ages.—( Loud cheers.) Earl DALHOUSIE and Lbrd BEAUMONT here rose simulta neously to address the House, and contested their right to do so for several minutes, during a scene of the greatest confusion. The latter Noble Lord struck the table several times in the most violent manner, and in the midst of most vociferous cries of " Dalhousie" and " Beaumont" shouted " I move the ad journment of this House." Earl Dalhousie at length gave way, Lord BEAUMONT, in a most excited state—l am surprised that the Noble Earl should persist in his attempt to prevent me from addressing your Lordships, because I said to him across the table that I would occupy but a few minutes of your Lordships' time — (Cheers)—feeling anxious, as he is, and all your Lordships must be, that this debate should conclude. — (Cheers.) And when I rose it was tor the purpose of confin ing myself to a very few remarks. Although I confess, my Lords, it is with rain I do contract my observations into a small compass, because I feel much on the subject. I have thought much on this subject.—(Cheers.) I have attended to every speech that has been made on this subject, and I do think that there are certain points which have not yet been aileded to.--( Hear, hear.) But, my Lords, notwithstanding this strong feeling, I will still keep the pledge I should have given, and if your Lordships will but lend me your attention for a few minutes—(Cheers)—you will find that I will not detain you long. —( Cheers.) If, my Lords, in those few remarks which I feel it my ditty to address to you, I do not dwell on that portion of the subject on which so much stress has been made in other parts of this discussion, I mean that strange change of opinion which has come over cer tain Noble Lords,l trust you will not impute it, by my silence on that subject, to any small value that I may be supposed to put upon the consistency of character in public men. I feel as much as any man the shock which public morality must have received by this uncalled-for and injurious measure. And if the question of the conduct of the Government were brought forward separately, I myself would move a resolution, the object of which would be to reprobate their conduct, for on such a subject I would feel it my duty to vote for such a re solution as that.—( Hear, hear.) But on the present occa sion, my Lords, I would confine myself to the subject before you, because it is my wish that this subject should be treated on its own merits. I wish, my Lords, to come to a consider ation, whether or no, you are now to abandon that principle, which for so many years as guided your commercial qualities . ; and supposing you to come to that resolution, whether the measure proposed by the Government is the best mode of so doing ?—( Hear, hear.) These were the grounds, my Lords, on which I hoped to have seen this measure discussed, and the only grounds. I need not say, my Lords, new at this late end of the debate, that my vote shall be given against this mea sure. You have based this measure on its real ground, for with the exception of two Noble Friends, who sit together, the Noble Marquis and the Noble Earl who spoke on the former occa sion, if any arguments have been broug ht forwar d in favour of the Government measure. lam sure we have bad non e from the Government themselves. What was the case in regard to the Noble Earl who opened the debate? He wasted a long period in trying to bring forward an excuse for his vote on this question, a long list of votes against his secretly entertained opinions : — ( Hear, hear.) The larger port ion of the Noble Earl's s p eec h was to the effect that he enterta ined free-trade p rinci p le s , but he did not venture to vote in accordance.—( Hear, hear.) The remainder of the Noble Earl's s p eech was a feeble attempt at argument with regard to the gro unds and p rin ciples of this measure. After partially abando nin g the cr y of famine in Ireland, he said, My Lords, I k now that it will he satisfactory, notwithstanding the distress in Ire land, that ~, r a i u theya n t i t w i eesr were has about been to importedenhance this country. article and necessary of life — to lose the b en efit of the price t o be obtained by the competiti o n of a sin g le m arket in order to Tnhe immense fact mense was, q enhance the price of food. Such seemed to be the object of every projector of the Bill. He was aware that a great at tempt had been made to show a deficiency in the crops of potatoes in Ireland. This he drew from the last returns sent to England; but a great deficiency had occurred in the potato crop, and the natural consequence was, that the peasantry would neglect the culture of potatoes for white crops. What ever might be the eloquence employed upon the subject, no charge whatever could be made respecting the points before the House ; and when the balance of trade was talked of, it was of little consequence on which side this balance was to rest, but certainly, when there was anything to poise, it might well be asked on which side the advantage was to be gained. They were told that gold was to pay for the exchange of goods, and gold was to be the grand maximum of faith in exchange. When he looked to this balance of trade, he thought that there were certain countries trading to each other, and that the result was the difference in expense, the difference being the respective value of manufactures in this country. From the returns that had been made to Parliament, he was led to believe that the principle they went upon was the value of labour.---( Cheers. ) Lord BROUG HAM was quite sorry to interrupt his Noble Friend.—( Great confusion.) Earl The o f WICKLOW really thought this was a grievous interference with the order of the House.— (Great confusion, and cries of Order, order.") Lord BEAUNIONT m ust really persist, though it was with great pain, but it app eared 1 from the returns, both fr om Prussia, Russia, and Am erica, that the price of labour, and the price of wheat had been regulated by th e pr i ce of gold. This being the case,he trusted their Lord ships would look upon the question in the proper light. Under the operation of the present s y stem Engli sh goods we re sold at Trebizand, and other places , cheaper than i n the Eng lish market. He not only made this statement, lout he found, on referring to the evidence of Mr. Gay before the Land Burdens Committee, that that gentleman stated that in the China market the exports were selling at less and less, and that many losses were in consequence sustained. He believed the experts m us t b e met b y imports, and put gold m o . on the other articles that are to be estimated in the calculation. Grain entered comparatively little into the foreign trade, as compared with the home trade, which, in regard to the exports they were selling year by year for less and less, while higher prices were being paid for returns to be imported —( Hear, hear.) If they reduced the price of labour in the home market Loan equivalent extent, there would, however, be no loss. If the rate of labour in both countries was approximated there would be no loss. The great argument with r e gard to the corn-laws was, that in ord er t o i ncrease the exports of t he country, it was necessary to incr ease th e imports. He believed in that respect, that the imports were regulated in a g reat measure by th e s t a t e of the borne market. T a ki ng the popul ation cl oo of England an d Wales, they fo un d th e population to be oo .o 00. consumi ng each a quarter o f corn. I t seemed according to political economists there were twenty millions of acres of arabl e l an d in the country, o f which five millions o f acres were und er yield th ree wheat. Suppo s i ng th at each acre that was less th an was pro d uced in manyhe amo un t p laces t he kne w , b u t i t was the averag e amount of corn yieldedproduced would he fifteen milli ons , b e i ng one million les a sth a a nnt r the wh o l e ew but required for the consu m pti on o f t h e population. Th e re e one million of quarters whi c h were ma d e up from Ireland and the colonies. The amount of deficiency was so small as t o leave but little to he made up by importation from foreign countries. —( Hear, hear.) But the lowest food at present consumed by the people was wheaten bread. He made this statement, and he made it advisedly. It had been proved that when distress prevailed in Leeds and Sheffield there was more wheaten bread consumed than at times when trade was flourishing; as at the latter period the consumption of butcher's meat was so much greater.—( Hear, hear.) At present therefore, even in seasons of depression, there was but 1,009,000 to make up, though in many seasons the country produced sufficient to supply its wants. But it was said that free-trade would increase the quantity to 2,090,009 quarters, and that the great object of the change was to increase the exports of the country by encouraging large imports. There was to he an importation of 2,000,000. If so, they must displace 2,000,000 of English grown quarters, over and above the present amount ; and if there was an increase of prosperity among the manufac turers of the country, then that 16,00,060 of quarters would be too much, as butcher's meat would be substitute 1 to a great extent for the wheaten bread at present consumed. He must here allude to what fell from the Noble Lord who sat near to him, and who stated that during many years the produce of the country was equal to its demands, and that it would be found that in this respect the present measure would be a great hardship. If this were so then how would this meet the eepeetations of those who expected that this measure would lir'ne a large accession of imports. There would be periods if this were true, there would be seasons and periods in which the large supplies exported would not be required, and then a'ray would go the principle of the manufacturing interest, who expected from this measure a large, regular, and perma nent increase of trade with foreign countries.—( Hear.) The Noble Marquis also said that if they adopted this measure of free trade, the foreigner would regulate his supply, and there would he a regular produce for each and every year, but this was nothing more than what they had at the present mo ment ; for the Noble Lord remarked, and truly, that under the present system the foreigner had warning of when they were in distress, and when they had abundant harvests, This was just what he required ; and he was, therefore, strongly favourable to the present system, but whether they had a slid ing-scale or not, the foreigner would almays be informed as to the prices of wheat in this country.—( Hear, hear.) If they were to have foreign corn, 'it was better, he thought, that it should come into the country paving a small duty. But it was argued that the foreigner, having a knowledge of the state of the markets in this country, could easily stop the supplies during disturbed times ; but how did this agree with one of the statements made by the Noble and Learned Lord who lately interrupted him? The Noble and Learned Lnrd stated that even when Napoleon was in the meridian of his power—when Napoleon had almost conquered the world, and had every part under his control, he could not prevent corn coming into this country.—(Hoar, hear.) There was another circumstance to which he must allude be fore he sat down. The protectionists were asked why the English farmer could not compete with the forei g ner. Now, he contended, in the fi rs t pla c e that the English farmer came into the market not on fair terms with the foreigner. He was as convinced of this es he was living at that moment.—( Hear, hear.) In balancing the trade of the country, the English farmer brought 16,139,039 quarters of corn into the market while the foreigner only brought 2,190,000, or 3,C73,0f9 the one, however, came positively loaded with taxation, while the foreigner came in free. The English farmer had, perhaps, to pay 49. or 55., in the shape of direct taxation upon every quarter of his wheat, and vet he had to compete with the foreigner who paid no tax whatever. Besides his Noble and Learned Friend knew little or nothing of Russia, or he never would have made the statement he did with regard to it. Instead of Russia being in the position it was, the land was already clear and ready for plough. It required neither manure nor any thing else, and it only waited for the seed being thrown on the land —( Hear, hear.) Would this city then compete with the British farmer on fair and equal terms? He would wish to know whether his Noble Friend was a German scholar.—(Laughter.) Well, perhaps he was not—(Renewed laughter)—if he were, he would remember the description of the state of the cern soils in Russia. The description tf an immense tract of land, ready to receive the grain, and only likely to give a return in case of a proper market being found. Not long ago, he was at the port of Goole, in Yorkshire, and he there saw corn which had been conveyed on board' a vessel there at 12s. 6d. per quarter. They might use their in formation as they liked, but he could produce a confirmation of his statement, that the corn was conveyed on board free, at 12s. 6:1. per quarter. He referred to his authority, as there was a disposition to contradict his statement. It was not probable that they could maintain that the price of corn would remain so low as it was at present. He knew that if a large trade was carried on in corn the prices would rise, but they would be subject to an enormous fluctuation. He had seen last autumn and winter in Germany that from Monday to Wednesday the price of bread had risen six kreutzers. When they did away with the bonding system they would he exposed to these fluctuations. and left with corn stores. The garnering system was adopted all over the continent, in France, Austria, Germany, Turkey, and even by the Pacha of Egypt. If there was not sufficient provision in the country, the people fell back on these stores. which as late as last winter had been the means of preventing famine in many parts of the country. The bonding system in England ensured that protective system.—( Hear, hear.) We had in bond a certain quantity of corn which was always a provision, and it was pretty certain not to come into the market until it was wanted, and it was certainly a safeguard to the country, and it was more certain and more economical than any other that could be arranged. They had net in this country what was seen at Constantinople, when the people were clamouring at the arsenal demanding the surrender of the provisions contained in the building. Something might be done which would hinder the country being dependent on others. If they were to follow the suggestion of his Noble Friend near him, they would cultivate more stock, instead of having a proper quantity of arable land. His Noble Friend said that stock was a great improvement in farming, but they must have the straw for the stock, and must have the land to supply that straw and receive in return the manure. If this measure was passed they would he compelled to make up a sufficient number of quarters of foreign wheat, and having no bonded system, you will then be driven to extreme distress. Then would happen that grievous object for which they appear to strive—namely, the market will be only supplied just with what it wanted for the moment. Then, if anything sudden were to happen to the country to check this system. so that this importation could not take place, what would become of the country ? Under the present law there was always a sufficient quantity in bond to supply the deficiency, in case of an accident of this kind. The Marquis of NORMANBY—Remember your promise. Lord BEAUNIONT—The Noble Marquis had reminded hint of his promise. He had only to state that he had a few words to say with reference to the question of population in extensive districts. There was no doubt that whatever the population was, there must be a great demand for labour. In this country, however, the population was very dense, so that there was a great supply rather than a deficiency ; therefore, the whole argument drawn from the circumstances of America, did not in the least apph to this country. Their Lordships must bear in mind that this country was the most densely populated country in all Europe. There was another point to which he must call their Lordships' attention, and that was the question of freight. The freights were greater from Selby and Goole to London than from Hamburgh to London. He was sorry to detain their Lord ships so long. He spoke from the fulness of his feeling. He was extremely sorry to stop so short as he had done—he re gretted that he could not proceed at further length ; that, wishing as he did that the debate should be concluded to-night, and knowing that they yet must have a long and an able speech from the Noble Earl opposite (Dalhousie). He said a long and able speech, because he thought the Government were bound to show some better ground than had yet been done, and some better reasons on the part of the Government for intro ducing this measure. He considered that it was their duty to show what would be the diminution of price in the article of corn—whether it would diminish the material income, or whether they intended to take 30 per cent., or 20 per cent. from the income of this country. He would refer to one point— the rental of land. The rental of this country was 17/. an acre in the North Riding of Yorkshire, 13/. in some parts of Wales. There were two parishes in Lancashire in which Mr. Ashworth's manufactories stood, where the rental was only Si. an acre. This fact was given in evidence by Mr. Ashworth before the Committee appointed to inquire into these matters. Ile would conclude by observing that he very much regretted he could not refer to other subjects which he was desirous of bringing before the attention of their Lordships, but at that late hour of the evening he would not further detain them, and he thanked their Lordships for the kindness with which they had heard him. Lord BROUGHAM explained. His object, he said, in in terrupting the Noble Lord was to prevent misconception with regard to what he (Lord Brougham) had really stated, and also for the convenience of the Noble Lord. His Noble Friend had entirely misunderstood his statements and his arguments in reference to Russia and to Napoleon Buonaparte, and he had entirely reversed the inference which he had drawn. His objeetin interrupting the Noble Lord was merely to set him right. and to prevent his (Lord Brougham's) argumeats from being misunderstood. The Earl of DALHOUSIE hopes, that their Lordships would do him the justice to believe that in rising to address thous in favour of the second reading of this Bill, he did so ender deep and unfeigned distrust of his inability to discharge the task intrusted to him, but he hoped, from the continual course of kindness which he had experienced from them, he would meet with their indulgence, while he made a few obser vations on the important question at present under their con sideration. Nothing should fell from him to increase the feelings of discontent which prevailed among their Lordships, but he would address himself to the question without attempting to excite any irritation on so im portant a subject. The bebate, as far as it had yet gone, had divided itself int o two cons id era ti ons — t h e one referred to the measure itself, and the other to the conduct of those who had brought it forward. It was, he admitted, hard to endure, and painful to listen to the comments which had been made upon those who were identified with the present measure ; and though he admitted the mortification, he felt, on finding him self in opposition to those with whom he had for merly acted, still he must admit that there was some cause for their comments which he had heard . It was not from any disrespect for their Lordships w ho dif fered from him o n t hi s quest i on, that he would not addre ss their Lordships at any length. His Noble Friend, the late Secre tar y for the Col on i es , h a d l a id the case so fully before them, he would feel it unnecessary to address them on the arguments advanced by the Noble Lord, lie should mention to their Lori ships that he had always been of opinion that the principle of protection was not to be maintained, for it was most injuri ous to the trade of this country. Ile had founded that "Pi nion not upon any light grounds, but had formed it from an examination of the history of the commerce and the legislation of this country. That was the source from which his opinion Wes formed—that which his Noble Friend said he had sought for in vain—namely the history of facts. The tariff since 1842 had placed the question of protection beyond all doubt as to its effects and as to the necessity of its alteration. In making the statements which he now did, he made ne state ment at variance with the principles and opinions which he had advocated for years. Ever since he had the fortune to take a east in the administration of affairs he h ad not in that time sa;d anything but that which he now said. He remembered well that when he expressed his sentiments to the House on this question he observed many Noble Lords who differed from him, shake their heads and others express their dissatisfaction in various ways. The opinion; which lie then expressed were the opinions which he maintained that night. He had for the eleven years of his public life advocated nothing at variance with those principles. In the other House' when he had the honour of a seat there, his vote 'was alway; for a restriction of the duties. The first vote which he gave in their Lordships' House was for the Canada Corn Bill. He felt that it would be imprudent of him, at that late hour of the night, to proceed to express his feelings on this question at any length. He felt that he ought to go into many of the points of the speech of his Noble Friend the late Secretary of the Colonies, hut he would not go into it in detail.—( Hear, hear. ) Now, he had heard many persons complain of a tariff of 1842. It reminded him of eNoble Friend of his own who complained of the immense increase in the price of butter. There were two reasons advanced in justification of this complaint; first, that the duty had been unnecessarily lowered, and secondly, that the importation had been increased; but it was clearly shown that the duty had not been lowered, and that the impor tation had not been increased. He regretted that the Noble Lord (Stanley) was not in his place, because it was ex ceedingly distasteful to himself to reply to matter which the Noble Lord could not possibly hear or reply to. One of the statements of his Noble Friend was, that his Right Honourable Friend at the head of the Government had made it his boast that the tariff of 1842, by lowering how the it w duties,as possible had e thatected competition n rise i nonf should prit.e , an early hour in the evening, but he (Lord D But that had been met by his raise al a h n o d the .he) would v i s o c k u e e l s d d . Noble Friend (Earl Grey) at merely advert to the fact. That Allstatement had never been d h i i n s o, R t Right l f a l r o m n . exhibited Friend. R M 'l7l l l e St b arl y e e s a a g i C r ' e S e V i a t s e t r il al t ii n em ot : b b e e e r n ; atboocurtetahtee atasrtiiffnlionweerreianseingthreisperorefes,. the effect of it had by the which the' tariffon Lord asked what had been the effect of P of wool in the year 1834, during the price rtih'ees. Then the Noble duty of Is. 4d. ? He held in his hand apaper,re was a protective laid upon the table of the House, in which the which ,iva had been t srices of the different' wools was set before the7r tit l v eo a rd d ships. They extended from the year 1815 to the year 1845 inclusive, and it comprehended three different rates of duty. In the year Itsl9 he found a protective duty of lid. per lb. In the period ending 1835 he found 6d. per lb. charged, and he found also that a protective duty of Id. was charged after wards, which was finally abolished in the year 1844. When it was proposed to impose 6d. per lb., the House was informed this would certainly be fillowed by a lowering of the prices. The result fully justified the expectation. In the year 1800, when the duty of 3 .01. was proposed, the importation was 24,000,0001b5. and the price was 2s. 6d. Under the low duty, the amount of wool imported increased to 39,000,0001 b,, and the price was Is. 31d. He should like to have been permitted to have gone through the various statements, but, at that late hour of the evening, he would not trouble their Lordships with the details. His Noble Friend, however, referred to the price of timber, and he would take leave to mention to the House one or two of the circumstances connected with the trade. The number of their ships had increased greatly within the last few years ; and on a comparison made with respect to the number of foreign ships employed in the timber traele, he could assure their Lord4ins of the fact that those were unfit for any other purpose, and were kept afloat merely by the loads; besides, they freighted themselves for the merest triile. He would beg to read an extract of a statement made at a business meeting without any other object than business. It was at a meeting of the dock companies in Liverpool. The Chairman observed that surprise had been expressed at an in crease of one hundred thousand in the shipping in the docks, but he had to inform the proprietors that they had then to deal with hundreds of thousands, and that if there was a more politic tariff instituted by the Government in plaee of the pre sent one, no one could be able to say to w hat extent they should have to increase their accommodation for their shinning, and that when the duties were further reduced it would not be in the power of man to divine what accommodation it would be necessary to afford. At present Liverpool was the only place boasting of 200 acres uncle- docks with but 15 miles of quays. His Noble Friend had made some observations upon other points connected with the one he was now discussing, but as he saw that his Noble Friend was absent, he would not fur ther allude to them. But his Noble Friend had made some observations upon the subject in the reference to the laws affecting the trade in cern, which he felt called upon to reply to, His Noble Friend had laid it down as a general principle that there were high authorities in favour of a continued sys tem of protection to corn ; and he instanced no less an autho rity than the late Lord Chatham. Now he (Lord Dalhousie) begged to say, that though he entertained the highest possible respect for the opinion of so great a man as Lord Chatham, yet he should say , that neither that Noble Lord, nor the equally illustrious Mr. Pitt, could in the present day, under the present circumstances, stand up in defence of these protective laws ; nor did he think could any other man, capable of taking a dispassionate view of the subject. He (Lord Dal housie) would appeal with cenfidence to the memorable work of Lord Lauderdale, a nobleman whom he considered as one who had admirably adopted the doctrine of the present day.— (Hear, hear.) He might also adduce examples of men equally eminent, and in more modern times. So soon as those restrictions were removed the restrictions for the protection of corn should he removed also.—(Hear, hear. ) Then the Noble Baron who sat near him that evening (Lord Ashburton) repeated the statement which was made last night. He said, " You are going to do that which no country on earth has yet attempted; you are going to have free trade in corn ; and solve me this question," said his Noble Friend—" what will you do in a cheap year, when the ports of this country are the only ports that will be open for the importation of fo reign corn?"—(Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend on the last night asked a similar question. Now he wished to remind his Noble Friend that no country in the world except England imposed duties on the importation of corn merely for the sake I of protection ; and if their Lordships would permit him, he would real a statement which had been very carefully drawn up, showing the amount of the protective duties imposed in each of the other nations of the earth. It appeared that the duty on the admission of corn in the corn-growing portions of Turkey was 3 per cent., and in the other portions 5 per cent. Now, he begged their Lordships to observe, that theleorn-grow ing portions insisted on the duty being but 3 per cent. instead of 5 per cent. Now, he wished to ask his Noble Friend what argument he could draw tram that in favour of free trade. In the two Sicilies there was a duty of about Ss. per. quarter. In Sardinia it was about ss. In the small Italian states, the duty was about 3d. In Tuscany there was no duty. In Greece it was about 2d. per quarter. In Austria it was 3d., although Austria had been quoted as a corn protecting country. In Spain prac tically there was no prohibition. He would ask their Lord ships' permission to mention one simple fact which would show the advantage or disadvantage of that description of protective duty upon corn. It was a fact which was upon record, that corn had been purchased in the port of New York at 44. 6d. per quarter, whilst wheat was selling at Castile at 1 s. per bushel. Such was the case with regard to Belgium. The sliding scale had no place there. In Holland, the duty was Es. per quarter. In Oldenburgh it was 5 to 51 per cent. per cwt. In Naples it was 3s. 2,1. In France it was merely a protecting duty. The other duties might be ascertained by the returns which had been made to the House. The only correct method of forming an estimate was by making observations from the actual state of things at various periods. He had a statement of the amount of grain imported into the country from 1761 to 1844. In that return he found that during the first fourteen veers was the average about 94,090 quarters in each year. That quantity greatly increased up till 1810, when the average for the ten years following was 421,C00 quarters. From 1831 to 1840 the increase had taken place still further to 928,006 on the average in each year. From 1841 to 1844, inclusive, the amount imported in each year was 1,879,000 quarters, of which a large amount was entered for consumption. If this were true, how could it be made to appear that the produce of this country kept pace with the consumption of the country. He had shown that for a long period of years, the importation of foreign corn had increased year by year, until it had reached in the average of the last five years to 1,879,000 in each year. How then could they think they could maintain themselves independent of foreign countries ? ( Hear, hear.) He would now proceed to consider this posi tion of being dependent on foreign countries. Why, there was not a single trade in which they were not dependent for sup plies from foreign countries. Look to the wool trade, in which they were dependent on foreign countries for large supplies. Perhaps it was not exactly the same as the corn trade, but it was analogous. It was the same whether they took away the life or the means of living.—( Hear, hear.) In regard to the wool trade, large supplies of foreign wool were used up every year in manufacturing operations There was not a coat they wore that was not dependent on foreign supplies. There was not a footman in their service but what would give them notice to-morrow, if they proposed he should wear clothing without the employment of foreign wool. The same principle applied to the cotton trade. A Noble Lord on the opposite side had represented the quantity of cotson wool used at 721,000 lbs. annually, and for this they were dependent en tirely on foreign countries.—( Hear, hear.) So it was with all articles that made up the necessaries of life. They could not even carry on the art of war without being dependentn it (i on foreigners for one of the principal means of carrying d. They had not a single ounce of sulphur in this countr y , and they could not fire off a single shot without being dependent upon a foreign country.—( Hear. ) Now let him remind their Lordships that they were not merely depe nd en t upon the foreigner for these articles of us e. The depen d e d through the medium of the exports for the rev enue and main tenance of the credit of the credit of the c ountr y . was asked what were they to do for supplies in time of war ? Let them see if this were so. Take the case of cotton. In the year 1812 and 1814 this country was at war with the United States of America, from whence almost all the cotton used in this country came. Now was there a stoppage in consequence of the war? No such thing ; for in 1812 there werr 6,109,030 lbs. introduced; in 1813, 50,900,090 lbs. ; and in 1814, 53,771,00 lbs. But let them come down to a later period, and take the case of China. They were at w ar a short time age with China, one of the most restricted nations on the f of the aeo earth, and who it was supposed would haoe stopped every export to thi s country. Di d she, however, do so? No, she did not ; an d i n 1533 there were imported into this country from China 32,069,000 lbs. of tea, in 1839 55,060,000, in 1840 22,000,000, and in 1841 36,000,000; and he main tained that the same principle as was thus applied to cotton and tea in these instances would be applied to corn. Price seemed to have nothing to do with this question which was confined to the consideration as to whether in time of war this country could get supplies of corn from abroad. Upon that point he certainly thought they need not trouble themselves ; for even while they were at war with all Europe there was always a supply of corn from abroad, and in 1810 the largest importations came from France.—(Hear, hear.) He maintained, then, that should it ever so happen that this country wanted a supply of corn from abroad, it would always be got.—( Hear, hear.) He was called on by the Noble Lord who last addressed their Lordships, arid by others, to state on the part of the Government what will be the price of corn under the new system. He certainly was not prepared to com ply with any demand el unreasonable, and to say what should be the definite and specific price of corn under the system now to be pursued, he might be permitted to ask, with great respect to their Lordships, whether they were entitled to demand that information at his hands. Were they who advocated they main tenance of protection on corn prepared t i o say that ne coyuld could predict what would have bean the price o f corn. . Friend—he would one thing far the information of his Noble ask, could there be a greater fallacy than to say that the h much in fifteen years ence. price of corn could be so would it be any consola tion to predict any such price, when, during that period , the p rices might fluctuate from one end of the o f corn was the scale to the othe r. In the year 1832, price and in the next year bus oneit was 395. In 58s, per quarter , that it was 645. ; and in the year follow the year but hue after when, under the prevent it was 70s. and 575. NN. as it possible teat follow ing presen t sys tem of protective duties, of which the object was understood to be to prevent fluctuation, such gre at fluctuations occ urred, that they could, with any reason, ask him to name the specific price of corn in future ? The Duke of RICHMOND—Look at your last Bill. Lord DALHOUBIIS—The Noble Duke requested him to look into the la-t Bill, if his memory served him so as to carry him back to 1842, the Noble Duke predicted the same , consequence as the result of that Bill. • The DUKE of RICHMOND said that he did not do anything of the sort ; he did not much like it, and he did not ante upon it. Lord DALHOUSIE said that perhaps he was labouring under a misapprehension, and he was sorry for it. He said that the present law during the last six months has proved by its administration that the whole system of average was a fic tion —( Hear, hear.) What was the case ? The Noble Lord opposite boasted that during the last three years of the existence of the law, great steadinesi in tne prices had been the result. During those three years the price on the first was said to be 535.; in the seeond, 525.; and in the the third, s'ts. 10d., and that fact was also adduced to prove the abundance of corn in this country to the absurdity of proposing to go on with this measure. He held in his hand a return from the different market-towns, which gave the highest and lowest prices in the different towns throughout the country. In January, 1845, the highest price was 555., and the lowest 40s. In February of the same year 555., the lowest 3ss. In January, 1846, the highest price 6 is., the lowest 393. The Duke of RICHMOND—What are the prices of the present year? Earl DALHOUSIE would give the Noble Duke the re turn. for the present year. In November, 1845, the highest price 685., lowest 48s. ; on the 29th of November, highest price 695., lowest 3Ss. January 1816, highest price 695., lowest 445. ; September, highest price 675., and lowest price 445. ; but, perhaps, it would be better to give the differences of prices. They had been 255., 265., 265., '275., 29e., 315., 315., 365., 28s. He would now call the attention of their Lordships to the prices at which red wheat had been supplied, contract prices. In 1543, 21. 9s. 3d., 1844, 2/. 17s. 10d. ; 1845, 21. 6s. 101. ; 37. ss. 'bd. However he did not intend to answer the question which had been put to him with reference to the price of corn, after this Bill, and received the sanction of their Lordships, because all former predictions with reference to the price of corn bad failed. Many of the speeches which had been very ably, and pathetically described ihe injury which would be occasioned to the country by this passing of this law, in consequence of the great importation of foreign corn which would follow the pass ing of this Bill. But they had not stated where the quantity of corn was to come from. he the year 1828, a gentleman was sent to the north of Europe for the purpose of inquiring into the subject, and although not favourable to the importation of foreign corn, he stated that no quantity beyond that already imported could be brought into this country. In the year 1841, another gentleman was sent to make similar inquires. The returns which that gentleman made were before him. The total amount of corn which could be introduced into this country from all parts of Europe was 2,200,C'0 quarters. o w n . respect H t e o o id o not thcr dispute places. that From R uss i a there were 1,230,000 quarters. From Pr ussia there were, f rom 1 835 to 1544, 635,0 00 quar t ers , and so on withrtlt contra dictionw of thi s , t h at there might be an immense quant i t y of grain cu lti vate d from districts were there was none at present a t,t:ahhseartseavi werevalue however,were the} A, source of supply f or cattle under As t millions of acres that mi g ht b e cultivated, but of well might th ey refer tothe plains the newains of o tariff,ti tti Americabecause as a they at present ran about there wild. He would not allude to the carrying charges, because he believed that the means of con veyance in those count r i es precluded the possibility of their being able t o sen d the grain here at such a rate as to undersell the British farmer. The Noble Lord read a table of statistics to prove that the im partation of corn into this country would not be so great as an ticipated by these who opposed this measure, inasmuch as the population of other countries world be increasing ; and even if it were to come in. the price at which it would be sold would not be much if at all below the price of grain in the home market. There were a number of ether figures, with which he would not trouble their Lordships at that late lcour, but there was one eansideration which had not been sufficiently dwelt upon. He sufficient meant the increase of their own population at home. It wa s a fallacy to say that they could bring into cultivation a suf quantity of land to meet this enormous an nual increase, and he would take leave to read a short extract from the report of the sanatory Committee. The Noble Lord then read the extract, which stated that an extent of new territory, equal to the counties of Surrey, Hereford, and Cambridge, would be annually required to meet the wants of this increasing population. There were in the three kingdoms 28,000,000 at least, who, in the three years, encreased at the rate of 15 per cent. in ten years, or 300,000 a-year ; or since this measure was introduced before Parliament an addition of 1,000 soul!. Then when Noble Lords spoke of new lands being brought into cultivation for the purpose of meeting the demand, they must be perfectly well aware, that it was a matter of impossi t this w country. er limited impossi bility. It was u sua l t o t reat o f t h e U n i te d S tates as un broken ground, from w hi c h any quantity of wheat could be i mpor t e d intoßut t ithn it i w o a' ne portion well-kno of well-known nth th y at e country, the t r wheat whole lyin g t o t h e extreme west, and no quantity could be shipped to this co un t ry , excepting at a very considerable cost. uutehaet districts The Noble Lord also read an extract from some statistical do cuments to prove that according as the population increased in the United States so did their exports diminish. It had been objected that they were not to try this great experiment on this great country. Why it has been tried, from 1766 to 1791 we had a practical free trade in corn. Taxes were not as heavy, to be sure, then as they were now, but they weighed every bit as heavily on the labourer ; and it was an historic truth that the labourers of this country were more heavily burdened than those of ether countries. Was agricelture then in a depressed condition ? On the contrary, large quantities of land were taken into cultivation. He knew he would be met by the argument, that if there was a time when those who now advocated the measure were against it, they would say why propose it new ? But in answer to that, he would say that the circumstances of the country rendered it necessary, and because they concurred it would act as one of the best stimulants to employment. The Noble Duke on the cross benches shook his head at this assertion ; but lie (Lord Dalhousie) begged to remind the Noble Duke of tl.is fact, that during the railway fever of last year every deputation that came, no matter from what railway company, met with a favourable reception solely because it was stated that the proposed line of railway would afford easy access to the manufactui ing districts. Evek by the deputations from Goole and from Norfolk, and from all parts of Scotland, and even from Ireland, the argument continually was that those lines were intended to afford additional facilities for the transit of manufactures.—( Hear, hear.) Now, he would ask, why this longing for the prosperity of manufactures? 'Was it not because upon them depended the prosperity of every other branch of commerce in this country ?—( Hear, hear.) Was it not because it was a well known4act that every manufacturing engine that was stopped working had the effect of stopping 20 ploughs.—( Hear, hear.) These were the reasons that induced him to support this measure, fur he felt perfectly con vinced it would result most beneficially for this country. His Noble Friend, the Noble Baron who sat near him (Lord Ashburton). in his speach that. evening, spoke of the colonial system, and he said " Have you anti'ipated the effect which this alteration in your policy will have upon your connexion with the colonies ? " And he said, 4 , What is the use of the colonies if they are not to be markets for your manufactures ? " Now he ventured to think, very humbly, that the colonies were and ever would be an advantage, although they had a compul sory market there.—( Hear, hear.) But the advantage would be greater if the market were not compulsory. Their Lordships would permit him to remind them that that question was no longer open. The colonial question to which the Noble Lord had alluded, was broken down long ago.—(Hear, hear.) There were now no longer the differential duties which for merly existed with respect to the admission of manufactures. The maximum rate of differential duty with the exception of a very few articles, including tobacco; the differential duty never exceeded 71. per cent. The constant struggle of this country was to advance the interests of the colonies. The colonies imposed higher duties than even the Imperial legislation, but the colonial system, as described by the Noble Baron, no longer existed. Well, now, what was the state of the case with regard to the colonies as to the alterations which were now about to be made? If his Noble Friend the late Se cretary for the Colonies had been present, he would, no doubt , bear in mind that the only t wo articles which it was feared by some might be injured were timber and corn. His Noble Friend who sat near him (Lord Ashburton) had said that they were about by this measure to discourage mer chandise in the colonies. Now, with respect to corn, what was the amount of the carrying trade? He held in his hand, a return to which he begged tie Noble Lords atten tion. On the 11th of October, 1843, the importation amounted to 11,450 quarters. In 1844 there were 14,360 quarters. In June, 1835, there:were morel han 13,000 quarters. He did net trust simply in these returns, but he relied upon a ditpatch which had come from his Noble Friend, Lord Cathcart. That despatch was dated the 2.6,h of March, 1845. It would be impossible to decide the ditty of these returns. Mr. Baldwin "said they wished for no foreign interference, as they wished the connexion with the mother country to contiue. He believed that whatever the country might have suffered from British rule in former times, it was much better now, and that there was a disposition to do justice.—( Hear, hear.) These, with the other circumstances he had alluded to, were sufficient answers to the alarm which was said to exist in Canila in relation to those commercial principles He would, however, mention two other facts wit h reference t f the colonies. In the Legislature of Nova Scotia, when a . ie. country. age was delivered in reference to the defences of the the answer was, " Take the suns y o u want—the l ) whole revenue • if it is necessary." In New Brunswick, whole r evenue was, 0001. was voted for the same purpose, arid the ivle placed at the disposal of the Executive for the the feeling in the same purpose. This showed colonies. For himself he entert ained a deep in'erest in these colonies. As he had spent , tho u g h not i n an official capacity, many years of his life there. He had no t e a r from any want of was loyalty on their part, and he sure, should the time come when their services might be required, they would be as prodi gal and loyal of their blood these as they were of their treasure now. I4e had now touched on the various points of this great question, hut before sitting down, he would address a few words to reference to what had fallen from some Noble Lords regarding the conduct of her Majesty's Ministers. They had been called upon to account for the adoption of the preamble of this Bill. He, for one, admitted that it would have been better if the measure had proceeded from other hands, and none regretted more than he did that the Noble Lord who had been called upon to form a Government (Lord John Russell) ih order to carry a similar measure, had failed in the attempt. This was the measure they were called upon to give effect to. on the conviction that treachery would be charged to them, if they failed to act. Their Lordships may cause her Majesty's Government to change. They might charge them with va cillation. They might ruin them before the people for iuemasistedey—but he would submit respectfully to their Lordships, that even though all those points should be made, it would not justify such a word as treachery. There was no man in that House believed mote than he did in the high necessity of governing this country by party. He reeog - uised the influence of party, but he recognised a higher oblige ion still. He had not the honour of a seat in the Cabinet at the time when it came to a decision with respect to the measure then before them. but he had no d es i r e to avoid the responsibility which rested on his his Noble Friend near him, for that responsibility he recognised as his right. Would any one say what course he should have taken had he been a member of the Cabinet at that time ? Because no man who was acquainted with the facts that occurred could tell what course he would have . taken if the facts had been known at the time the he did say, and he trusted that their Lordships would not think it presumptuous in an individual as humble as he was, when he stated, that in his opinion there was no difference in the responsibility of the First Minister of the Cabinet and the meanest individual in it. There was no difference between the Minister suggesting a measure to his Sovereign,and one who in a subordinate capacity adopted it. Should it ever be his fate to be placed in a position of such a kind, in which the alternative was placed before him, of adhering to party, and of giving ef fect to a determined and solem conviction, he should adopt the course her Majesty's Ministers have adoped. He was bound to admit that if he adhered to party while he was bound by duty in another way, it would be a thousand times better that he did walk the earth branded as a traitor to party, than to live in the consciousness that if, in adhering to party, he had done that which was right in the eye of the law, while he enter tained the consciousness that he was a traitor to his Sovereign, or to the responsibility imposed on him. —( Hear, hear.) He hoped that he might never be placed in so painful a position as that, but if he were, and he should be so compelled, it would not be presumptuous in a public man, whose character, like those of all other public men, whose characters belonged to the public. He should be bound not to loose himself from the responsibility be longing, in so great a measure to his Noble Friend near him. lie should do so as he had already done and he should sub m i t to the penalty. I should give my co unsels to my Sovereign an d ac t to the best that which was in mv so vereigna charg e . Wh enev er I had done so it is most true I shouldt that I might be ex p ose d t o the indignation of party, high tribunal but Iy, but entitled to stand upright befo re have to thank of my conscience. Now I have done, have listened your Lordships for the patience with which you to me.—(Cheers.) I have only one word more. I wish I could command the eloquen ce whichwas the other night, by a Noble Friend of mine not now present, I