The Sun. — London, England, 1812-03-10 00:00:00

134 h 0 P4 could be considered as a Cnrporation, and also doubting the legality of some of the other be quests, he advised the Commissioners to institute 13 , ro teedings i n th e C ourt o f Ch ancery. B e f itre those proceedings were brought to a close, the heir a t law came over and commenced proceedings to set a side the will altogether, on the ground that it was. bla cl 'under undue influence. This was the real Vlll se of the unfortunate widows mentioned. by the ;tight Hon. B art. b e i ng d epr i ve d o f their as; lam; i t a s the ad of heir at law, and not of the Commis sioners. It aealed therefore that tine lit. Hon. Bart. ad been wh olly p misinformed upon this subje&, r at. he was sur e h e wou ld .no t i n t e nti ona lly rills eVesent the fads. The sum now asked for was 3 3 11 'Y Gool, w hi c h was to pay the Secretary of this u ard, and to provide stationery ; or the Members gratuitously. Hie wished to mention, be ire he sat d own , tha t by th e exert i on o f thi s () art! two of the, principal charities of Dublin, ', w hich w ere open alike to Catholics and to Pro testants,ll:ld re ce i ve d, and were now enjo)ing very Unutterable sums of [none).. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, he di:! not mean to SPeak dvespetitfully of the Board, but he believed ; t hat the names of the Bishops 'lnd Judges were Inserted honoris causa, and he ventured to say, that -1.11"Y scarc e l y ever attende d . Th e f act was, h e be eved that the B oar d w a s principally under the direc ") of D!. Dni genan , a nd th er ef ore co uld no t be Bu PPosed to be vary faVourable to the Roman Ca tholics. - „ I , l r. W. POLE said, that the best answer that r -11111 be given to the observation of the Right Hon. ,i . 4)aro net reSpeating the disposition of the Board to wards Catholics.; was, that in 111 , _1 course of twelve ?ears, onl y u one Catholic bequest had been interfered ,ths and th at was b y t h e a d v i ce of Mr.-Attorney ..Zeneral Plnnket. He begged . to repeat, that it wds Wi l'g to the i n terf e r e nc e o f the heir at law, and not o the Board, that the poor wino , as had been depriv- A ed their Asylum, for during the proceedings in 'fleerv, the B oa rd had allowed-the budding of t t sAin to go on,• an d had permitt e d 4001. to be paid °the Roman Catholic Bishops for a private charity or nt iutled in: the will. I here was another piece "'formation which he could give the Right nn ourable Baronet, and which he was sure it ! would receive with great plea• u: e, which was iat t h e Board never sat without a' Judge and a , w i h sl i P being present ; therefore, it eould nut be whil e under the. influence of Dr. Duigenan nor th any respect remained attached to the sacred „ ar aaer of a Bishop, or the exalted station of a ,",&e, could it be believed that any Board, at lil cit a Bishop and a Judge were constantly pre lints would act in the wanner stated by the Right aa. Baronet. A be Resolution was agreed to. 2 1 : 11 e next resolution was 2,4231, for the As -I°,clation for Di3counienancing Vice, a larger sum "Li was voted last tear. n this, Sir J. Mwroar pa i d a tribute of ap 'se to the mannerin which this Association was nl nuo e d it s attention was direct e dto the disni off prayer-books and bibles, to enlighten the 4( z . t . orders-,--and out to the searching after,, and v 4 n ''hinent of, petty insignificant ec , 3 ) 4 661. to the C o llege of Surgeons, was then -even M t o w i t t ra j t , observation. r. POLE explained, that it was a new grant to 101 institution of acknowledged and-i. finite se!vice t ° the public, and a imiranly concluded. The ptir iluse for which the sum proposed WaS 'Wanted, v..- as, %erect a disse6ting robin. Seven hunched pounds for the Green -coat Hospi -41 at Cork, for the education of soldiers' children, i'Pa also agreed to. W. PoLa next proposed the grant of 8,9731. fur the support of the Catholic college, at May -1400111.. L NEwI , oRT observed, that though this gran': 'lad been so often brought under the consideration 5 Pat!lament, he felt himself bound again to bring under their attention. , He would contend, that it Vias- more than ever incumbent on the House to flake some addition to the grant now proposed. ohs reasons were, that the population of Ireland, of 1 11111 ch the Catholics formed so liirge a part, was an 'ually increasing; and, therefore, the demand for I s eligion s in struct i on must increase in proportion. 'oosidering the influence which the C iiholic Clergy deservedly possessed, it was desirable at all times, t hat their education should be conducted at home, ) atner than abroad ; but there was no other provi ton for that education, except what, furnished Y this College, at Maynooth ; and he would put it t 0 the Cummittee, whether it was calculated on its Present scale to supply the religious instruction of the Catholics in Ireland. The prestert grant was suffi cient for the education of ouly two hundred students, ‘ v hose course of instruction required five years each 34 an average. The College, therefore, was calcu lated to furnish only about 40 persons annually for the service of religion. Now, the Catholic Clergy in Ireland were about 2,000 in number; and, from the calculations of Dr. Price, on the subjed of the enefit Society of the Clergy of the Church of Scot land, it might be fairly estimated, that a yearly sup- Ply of fifty-nine persons was requisite for keeping up the numbers of the Catholic priesthood in Ireland, ipstead of the 'Orly which this Coilege could send cet. The question was not, whether the. Catholics should become Protestants, for sny abridgment of the numbers of their clergy never would have that eared ; but the question was, whether the Catho lics should remain uurestritled in religion at all or not; and besides, become irritated against that Le gislature which refused them the means of religious Consolation. This was the plain state of the case ; and he could could see no reason why the grant should not now revert to the r 3,0001. a year, which was voted some years ago : an increase rendered still more expedient by fte enhanced price of pro visions, which had this night been stated as the rea son for increasing another grant, He would only Odd, the there was no priesthood in Europe which paid more exemplary atttention both to the tempo ral and spiritual interests of their flocks than the Catholic Clergy of Ireland : they necessarily, and he believed Most deservedly, possessed great it,flu ence over their people, and therefore it was for the general good of- society at large, that this body of mon should be well educated and instrueled. With these impressions, lie should move, that instead of 9,000. ounds the sum of 13,000 pounds shuuld be luserted. Mr. Secretary RYDER said, that he *as prepared to resist this enlargement of the original grant ; and if this had bt.en the first time of proposing the grant itself, 11.0 did - not hesitate to say that he would vote against it. He did not wish to debar the pro fes,ors of any religion of its most eniaiged and li beral toleration, but he was not for giving`a hostile religion the power of making proselytes, and this he conceived had been the effect of the establishment of Ma% nooth College- He would not, un,ler exist ing circumstances, go the length of voting that the original grant should be taken away; bu t -he most solemnly and seriously.assured the House , that aa ing on the principles which he professed, if the pre sent had been a call on the House for money fdr the purpose of endowing a Roman Catholic College, he would not give a single pound towaris it. Colenel Dt Lox declared, that he never felt more astonishment nor indignation than he did at hearing what had just fallen from the Right Hon. Gentle man. Tee Right Hon Gentleman argued against the principle ot educating the Irish Catholic Clergy, when he must have recollected that Maynooth Col lege. was founded during the most violent period ot Irish history, and when Europe began -to be in hos• tility against these countries. The Irish Catholic Clergy must have been educated at home or no where. The Right Hon-Gentleman did not ap- • pear to consider in what an ungracious situation he was lacing the House. At this particular moment, such a paltry seen as 80001. wasgrudged, to the mass of the population of Ireland, while the House was prodigal of the public money in every-other respect, even in the support of sinecure pensions and places. One good, however, must result from this conduct of the Ria,ht Hon. Gentleman, and that was, that Ireland would he able to judge of the spirit and tern per of the Ministry to which he belonged, that Ire land would be able to See how willing the Mire-ter was to add to de ic burthens e and how unwilling to lessen or aneviatetheir grievances. Mr. HERBERT sopported the enlarged grant. He denied that any system of proselytism had been pro moted by the establishment of Maynooth College. There - were six c , averts from the Catholics to every one from amongst the Protestants. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER opposed the Amendment, not because he considered the en largement 'of any consequence in an economical point of view, but because he was against the prin ciple of the grant altogether. At the same time, from the commencement of this establishment, Parliament bad granted for its support about 160,0001. and that was no paltry pittance. Accord ing to the Right Hon. Barottethecalculation, the number of priests required every year was 59 ; and was it not enough for the public to educate 40 out of that number ? He supported the grant as it stood, because it was one of those which the Parliament of Ireland thought wise to preserve at the Uniorn-:-- because he found it in fat given over to England as. part of - the. Union. If the grant had been fairly open to opposition after the Union, he certainly should have been .disposed to tesist it ; because he thought, on principle, that it was wrong for a State endea vouring to establish aparticalr system of religion, to provide a public supply for the maintenance, en couragement, acrd propagation of another. The House now supported charitably, 40 out of the 59 priests said to be . necessary for the Irish Catholics; and he contended that so much was not proportion ably done in the same way for the education of re.- sons for the Protestant Church Establishment. Why did not the wealtiry Catholics come for word and educate their clergy without calling on the State ? All the refined and deliberaie study uieotioaed by the Right Lion. Baronet was not necessary for Irish Priests; they dal not want wore education, surely, than was possessed by the clergymen in the distant parts ot England and Wales. He begged Gentle.: men to look at home, nnless they wished, by an ex cess of grants, to mike M Aynta‘th College equal. to Dublin, Cambridge, or Oxtord University. Mr. GR/eTAN was not aware of the strength of the Right Hon. Gentleman's argument, that because you adopted the original grant; therefore you were not obliged ever' to enlarge it. If once the principle Were adopted, be contended that the limitation of the sum was only 'to be fixed by the circomstances of the times,—to ad otherwise, was nominally to adopt, and ultimately to defeat, the prityciple,— What was the meaning of establishing a Catholic College, if the exigencies of such 14 college were not to be supplied as they should vary from time to time? The House should recoiled, that the Ca tholic population Fail for the Protestant Establish ment;' and it was extremely just that something should be given to them. The grant was not for the propagation but the pra6lice of the Catholic re ligion. The question was -trot, whether yon should extend this or that faith by any act in the power of Parliament to make. Such a system had been tried in Ireland, but it had tailed. Ads were passed which bad been mischievous in their operation, certainly .disgraceful, and entirely useless for the purpeses for which they were intended. Every effort to force conscience would hate a contrary died, because then it. became no longer a matter of re ligion but of spirit to persist in that faith against which such force was directed. Catholic's were Christians as well as Protestants, and every attempt to destroy Catholicity was an attempt against Chris tianity. The question was, in fad, between Chris= tianity and deism,—between foteign and domestic educstion. You must choose to educate the Dish as Catholics at home, or give them up to deivio, or to foreign education. - To ad otherwise was forcing the Catholic to he an infidel or a disaffeded man. When the House had once adopted the principle, he thought it was bound honestly to follow up that principle, and to meet the exigencies of the esta blishment whose existence it had sanctioned. As the people increased, so increased the demand for • religious instruction, and so ought the grant to be increased, froth which that instruction flowed. If the grant should not be increased, then the principle of the institution was only poorly and inadequately mete; half the people only could be instructed. The Right Hon. Gent. had asked, was there any instance of ,a State having supported a hostile religiOn ? Yes, he would tell him, Ireland. Ireland did now aelnally sup port the religion of another country ; for, when the Right Hon. Gentleman said " State," he must have meant by it, not the Government, but the nation ; and the Catholic people did contribute by taxes to the support of the Protestant r siablishment. Again, the Right Hon. Gentleman had .aid that there Was aso proportion between the means given for the echo • Galion of Catholic Primsis And Protestant Pastors.-- WooII any man in his senses have used such an ar gument He would ask the night Hon. Gentle man, was the Catholic rich in proportion to the Pro , \teitant Church in Ireland ? Was the Dubtin Uni versity nothing , Were tithes nothing ? Were Bisnopricks nothing ? Was the half million by which the - - Protestant Church •• as supported no thing ? Would the ROA Honourable Gentleman then consider the small, though resp-•ilablc number of persons for whose use these endowments were intended ? • And would he then :ninpare them, to the overflowing numbers for-whose religious in struction 80001. was thought too much ? In fact, there was not in the world a richer than the Protes tant, nor a poorer than the Catholi , . Church of Ire land. Christianity was the title of the Irish to edu cation. The grant was not to gratify a sect but to cherish a branch of the Christian Religion. To de ny the necessary grant, was an attempt to starve the people out of their faith, which could not be successful. To deprive the people of Ireland of edu cation, was . a struggle for a new victory over them. It was not only destroying their temporal rights, but their spiritual faculties; it was not only persecuting them in this world, but an endeavour to damn them. in the next. Mr. WHITBREAD said, that he ought to apologise for rising on this occasion, because, in fact, he had no new argtiments to adduce in favour of the en largement of this grant. There was a novelty, how ever, to-night, which he thought it necessary to no tice. The Right Hon. Gentleman did certainly, oif former occasions, oppose this grant ; and when he became the Minister of the King, he withdrew the additional sum given by Parliament to make it more adequate to its purposes. But the novelty of this night was, that the Right Hon. Gentleman opposed the enlarged grant, not as the Minister - of the King, but of the Prince Regent; not as in old ordinary times, but at this new .sera. According to the principles avowed by the Right .Hon. Gentleman, in his opinion it would have been more manly and fair to have undone the grant altogether, than to starve it as he was now doing. The Secretary for the Home Department had thrown out his loose assertion with regard to the instances of proselytism, merely, he imagined, for alarm. He defied him to mention Where the proselytes were made, and how many they were. it was strange that the Gentlemen opposite, who talked so much of the danger , of foreign influence over the Catho lics of Ireland, should thus oppose the very means by which that foreign influence would most likely be done away. He caVel upoe the Right Hun. Gentleman (Mr. Perc:vai) to follow up his intolerant principles by cutting up this establish ment altogether, or to agree to the aurendmeut of his Right Hon. Fiiend: The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that while he and - his colleagus were accused of in- novation, the charge preferred against them was founded tin the tact of their having resisted innova tion. The greet proposed for Maynooth College had been regulirty granted from 1801 to 'lBO6, without any alteration being made; but in 1807 ) when theN then Administration were doing every thing in their power to encourage the . Roman Ca tholic Religion (in which they were right--as they thought it wise to do so), they, in one Session. of Parliament, piocured a grant Of 12 or 13,0001. for the support of Mayttooth Collega. This grant was merely 'the ad of that Parliament ; it was not em bodied in the Approbation Ad,andcopsequemly with that Pat liamente when shortly after it was dissolved, it fell. After the new Parliament had met, it was thought this grant was not warranted by circum stances, and therefore he (the Chancellor of the and his friends, had conceived it to be their duty to return to the old one. It was for do ing this, for setting aside that whin was new, and returning to the old vote, that they were called in novators, It Would now be understood what was the definition of the word innovation, according to the Gentlemen opposite,'and it would also be utt derstood, that with them, those who abolished a novel or new praetice, ta.retuen to one which had been lung established, were innovators. The Hu• nourabie Gentle.nhin had done him the justice io be tr testimony to the consistency of his opposition to the enlargement of this grant. He bad admitted that when he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was not in office, he opposed it, and that when he tame into office, he had' exhibited the strange phe nomehon of a Minister acting consistently with the principles he had avowed in Opposition. This had seemed to surprise him but, however, the Hon. Gentleman had said, all, so far, was very well ; but the novelty was, he had hot only aeled thus, when he came ieto'office, but he had continued to do the same. Mit only had he continued to do the same while he was the Minister of the King, -but he still opposed tire measure, though he was the Minister of the Prince, and this again was a subject of great surprise, as it should seem, as it it were very extraordinary that a Member of that House should nut, oe such an occasion, put on new princi t i 's. His opinions,- however, ab -surd they might appear on this subject, had remained what they were in 1801, and the me mory of the Hon, Gent. was not accurate if he thought that the argument he had used that- night was new. -He had not supposed that there were nu - deaths at Maynooth, but when it was known that all' there _were professedly educated for the priesthood, he thought some latitude might be al- . luwed to whit be had advanced. When he said that if the grant were enlarged there was no know ing to what it might extend, he had not supposed that they might be called upon for millions upon millions, but he thought it was not &fineable how far, it might ex:end, if a line were not drawn where they now \vete. Sir Jou:s NEWPORT said, it-was in the first session of this Parliament that the augmentation took place, and therefore the Right Honourable. Gentleman was not correct in saying it took place in 1807, and was really the innovator he had been so justly iermed.. WHITBREAD adverted to the letter which had lately appeared, and the ink of which was scarcely dry, in which the Right Honourable Gentleman had invited and called upon those who advised the aug mentation, to unite with him. He therefore con gratulated the Right Hon. Gent. on his consistency. The CHANCELLOR Of the 'EXCHEQUER said-, that Achninistratien had hesitated to act upon the plan which they ow red they thought desirable. Mr. NV. WYNNE said a few words in favour of the amendment; after which the original motion was agreed to. ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. Mr. WARD rose and said, that in bringing for ward the Ordnance Estimates, he would endt3vour to detain the Committee as short a time as passible, He was happy to say that there would aprear )h the the whole of the Estimate to be a diminution of 252,0001. Tee first head was the Master-G , ,neral and prin cipal Officers, amounting to 42,4861. gq. 41 which was a ditnieution on the Staff of 4051. The Civil Officers were the same as last year. -The furniture for Barracks amounted to 60001. The next great artiele was the Pay, of the Artillery Regiments, which amounted to 51,1461. 19s. Bd.' The Medi cal Establishment was 4666!. in England _alone.— The Extraordiriaries, he said,would j as to the works in Jersey, amount to 45,0001. and it would take about thirty thousand pounds more to complete the work; in the Cinque Ports, Dover alone would amount to 12,5101. at Chatham 13,0001. and it would require 7,6ool'enore to complete the works; at Woolwich, 31,7641. 7s. Id. for buildings and a saw -mill, which would be a saving between manual and machine labour of upwards of 30001. for what cost 40601. ; defences of the easter: , coast, 57,3241. 175. ied. and it would require 39,0001. next year to complete the work ; for foreign service, the greater part of which was secret, and of which he was.not at liberty to speak, 804,5461. 195.; miscel laneous charges ; 412,2341. 10s. Id.; ammunition for regiments, 40,0001. ; estimates for Ireland, 459,8851. 18s. 2d. beingan excess of 18;0001. above that of last year. The excess on the whole, he said, would be 268,0001. but it was merely nominal, for in reality there would be a diminution. There was also a charge of 100,0001. for the purchase of salt. petre tram the. East. India Company. He Could not conclude his present statement, without advert ing to the Commi , oeoners of Military Accounts w ho had made 14 reports. The Board to which he had the honour to belong had, before they saw these reports, made s , neeeil - improvements which they had pointed out, and agreed with them on most of their principal points, particularly with respect to open competition in their contracts, and other important suggestions which they had made, and were deter mined to aid their labours try every assistance which they, as a Board, could give them. Having gone through the several statements, he would not trou ble the Committee farther, but should be ready to give any explanation that might be required. He concluded by moving that 8,873,6181.. 3s. 6d. be granted to his Majesty for the land service. General Terms:Tor; spoke at considerable length on the impolicy of Ministers not fixing a large depot in the centre el tl'e emery (as he had advised five years aeo) capable of contaiiiing equipments of every kind for 200,000 men. In the Scheldt and the Texel Buomiparte had 30 sail of the line, and men to man them ; and if he should be able, by any means, to land 10, 15, or 20,0000 men irrE:igland, we had no means- of expelling them from the courf try, though the expense of our army would this year cost us 'tear 59,000,0001. If Ministers did not seriously turn their thoughts to this- subject, they must turn their backs upon the safety and security of the kingdom. Mr. WARD said, the depot at Weedon Beck did contain equipments of every kind for 200,000 men, which he hoped would sufficiently console the 0- lant General. General l'Ant.E-rorc said, the depot at Weedon Beck might contain pistols, perhaps, for so many men ; but there ought to be, at least, too pieces of cannon also ; besides, Weedon Beck was tta) near thf: metropOlis. He complained that all the horse art illery were on the coast. Mr. WARD sail, that to console farther,the Hon. General, he would assure him, there were 140 pieces of cannon - at Weedm Beck ; and that there was also a troop of horse artillery. Mr. Fa EZMANTLE complained, that there was an increase of nearly 150,0001. this year, without mly apparent danger to call for it. He desired to have air explanation how this excess had arisen ; and till he obtained it, he could not agree to the Estimate. He was dissatisfied also with the explanation as 'to the defence of the country. He had nothing but the assertions of the Hon. Gentleman, which was not enough for him to call on his Constituents fOr so large a sum. The total increase in the Extraor dinaries only was '374,001)1. this year ; altogether the excess amounte'd to near a million, certainly to goo,uool. and the increase of men to our military establishmera had been only 19001. Mr. WARD re,tated many of the items he bad before gone over, ,and insisted that on the whole of those estimates there would be diminution. Mr. WHITBREAD said, with respell to the secret service mentioned by the Hon. Gentleman, be be lieved it was a secret that was known to every body but the House of Commons. They were presents sent to certain persons, by whom they had been re jected ; and a considerable part had been lost,in the . p.issage home, and was now at the bottom of the Sea.' Mr. WARD acknowledged that stores to the amount of 77,0001. had becu lost. Mr. HUSKISSON made some observations, in which he particularly noticed the sum of 25:0001. for works at the Pigeon-house, Dublin, He in- ferredfrom the statements, that this was only a part of the expense to be incurred ; and urged the. ne cessity of an estimate of the whole cost of every plea accompaning the proposition for its adoption. Mr. WARD said, that recently a regulation had been m ide, by which engineers throughout the em pire were to accompany their statements, with 101 l estimates of the expense likely to be incurred by their execution. With respect to the Pigeon-house, it was the depot of the garrison of Dublin, and one of the chief artillery depots in that country : but the ground belonged to the Ballast Corporation. It was desirable that Government should have it in their own hands, though from many claims which must be settled, a certain cost must take place in attaining that object. If there was any land which 'should be apprOpriated exclusively to public use, it was more peculiarly the case with the Ordnance Depart ment, wherein the liability of accidents to the stores must be evident. No other place near Dublifi would suit the purpose. . . General TARLETON made some objeetions on the localities of Ireland, upon which Mr. Ward observ ed, that the objeetions were fitter fol. the considera tion of the Ordnance Board, ihan as matters of de. , bate. Mr. WHITBREAD thought the Idst remark rather hard. lie might dB well go to thc Admiralty Board,,