The Sun. — London, England, 1812-06-20 00:00:00

react a second timo, and committed for to- in orrow. ORDERS IN COUNCIL. I ord CkSTLPREAGH having moved the Order of the Day for a Call of the .House to be read, with a,,view to postponing it, Mr. BROUGHAM said, he little thought, after what had passed cn Tuesday; that it would be necessary for -him .:to trouble the -House 'again upon the Orders in Council. . After, the explana tion and statements of the Noble Lord, he thought there was an end of that question ; the merchants 'of London, and the, inhabitants of all theinanu-.. -facturing districts, entertained, the sairi 'opinion ; and he had received, that very morning, such let ters from.varion.s parrs, e - apressiVe hf the,ex:ulta tion WhiCh prevailed, both among masters and s workmen, as must rejoice the House (if they could be prlduced)seven with what they had done last Tuesday. What a disappointment, then,. Must it -be to him, and - to muse who thought with him, to find that in substance no conciliation *as intended—and that though the principle was given up„ it was given up in a way that could not be • beneficial. The understanding of. Tuesday night, as he conceived, was, that the suspension should take place immediately ; but now it ap peared that - it was not to commence for six weeks; -or till sonic negociator was sent out. It was also ' the opinion, that the Orders in Counci! were to be abandoned altogether ; but now it seemed they , ivare to he reviled aftar a certain interval, unless France should in the mean time revoke her Ber lin and 'Milan Decrees, or America take part with England in enforcing their revocation. FrOm be ginning to end the transaction was a complete mockery. Another thing he should mention (for Since la;t Tuesday every day brought some new retractation), it was intended that while the Or der in Co-.moil were suspended, all American vessels bound to the Continent should be brought into our por:s, though not for adjudication. Was this the spirit of conciliation, or was it not an unmanly, niggardly, shuffling, prevaricating con duct, unworthy of the character and dignity Of the country ? His object in bringing this Matter before the House, was to warn his Majesty's Ti-, nisters against committing themselves in an Order which could not produce a particle. of good to our commerce. He knew that they would give it by in the end, or any thing rather, than -their places. They had abandoned Col. M'Mahon's ap pointment, they had abandoned theßarrack scheme, Zoe. so that the country was going on precisely in the same way, and on the same train of principles, in consequence of those concessions., as if he.and his Hon. Friends were in. office, and the pre- Sent Ministers condemned to the dark and dreary knight of Opposition. He stated that a most fa :vourable effect was produced on the trade and - commerce of the City, as soon as it was known 'that the Orders_ in Council were to be suspended, and that one merchant, to his knowledge, had Immediately set about a shipment,. which would amount to one million, and which alOne would he sticient to keep one hundered thousand 'peo ple six months in employ. Since the explanation, , of list might, however, not one shipment waago ink -on- They might issue, declaration after de , elaration in vain, if they hung the American mar ket upon. any thing. that Buonap;rte would do, for they might depend, that he would, rather -France should perish than repeal her Decrees, if such repeal would be attended with advantage to - England. If they intended to save the country from the effects of former' measures,, they should plainly and fairlY relinquish that of which they were prepared to give up every thing but the name... Be -had sent that morning to Lloyd's, a slip,inquiring at what rate goods could be ship peat to America, on, the understanding that the repeal of the Orders in Council was to last only for twelve months, unless Prance should re peal her . Decrees, or America ass st us against her The answer was, that it could not be done. There was, but one offer made, and that was at 25 guineas in the hundred. Another question put was, at what rate it' could be done if the re . peal was complete ? and the answer was, at the usual rate of three or four guineas in the hundred. He implored Ministers either to maintain the Orders in Council, or to give them up in such a manner as would be attended with advantage and relief. He wished that the House might be called over on Thursday next, and if no satisfactory ex- , planation should take place in the mean time, he would submit a motion on Wednesday, respecting the Orders in Council. • Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he should not object to any motion the lion. and Learned gentleman might make preparatory to any intended motion on the subject of the Orders in Council : heshould -not, however, travel along with-him through an argument of more misconception than perhaps had ever been comprised in the same space. 'Not contented with the single subject, he had deviated into an episode on the situation of Ministers, though his sentiments on that head, were not such as he (Lord Castlereagh), was prepared to • ~:pect. That he and his Colleague. - possessed the confidence of the Prince Regent, that they possessed the confidenee pf the country, he hoped ; but really he h'ad not supposed before that night, that they possessed. the approbatiOn of the Gen tlemen ou the opposite side. For his own part, he could declare (and he believed that. those who acted - with him would declare the same) That he did not feel tlle least periofial gratitude to the Hun Gentleman, for having omitted to, take the • sense'of the House the other night. But that he thought it would have been an unworthy triumph, fic would himself have pressed fora division ; in deed he felt that the Honourable 'Gentleman bad made submission enough ,to him. lie should not now proceed to the notice . the inisconceptions into which he 1-id fallen, as he was sure the 'House would be enabled to proceed better when they had the Act of the (.4overnthent before them, which it was competent for any Gentleman to move for. tXe was surprised at the loose statements and misrepresentations that had gone abroad on the subject of conversations, said to be held with him, 'He did not complain of those with whom he had communicated, but when Members of Par iiameut tame down to the House to make such ta teni ents , the only effect which he saw as likely to result, was that of breaking up the confidence which• ought to exist in such cases, and which 1,1,-)is necessary to encourage the Government to such communications in future. When- the papei to which he alluded *as on the table of the. House, he'r, ouldTherepaled to argmethe question; before that it would be a waste of time. . 1 r. PONSONBY begged - leave to inquire of the Noble Lord, at what time the document to wirkh h'e alruded might be expected to be befoit House Lord CASTtEREAGH said, the document must be first priat.ed, .after which, as soon as it was moved for -it would be produced if the House thought fit, but he should think such a motion unncessnry, Mr. PONSONBV assured -the -Noble Lord that he :never had the least thought of calling for the production of a dOcument whicii was not in existence,. General GA.KOIGNE called upon his Majesty's . 34inisteri to - inform the eonfmereial people, as soon as pos'sible, what, they were to expect,-be foi-e they Proceeded any farther in their under takings. lie knew that rrrav persons in Liver pool werecalready implicated in' exports, without knOrcing whether they would be stopped or not. lie hoped every step would be taken to conciliate America.. • Mr. ROSE said, with regard to the Honourable and Learned Gentleman's description of the lively impression produced upon: the Merchants in the City,_ on hearing of the suspension of the Orders in Council, he (Mr. Rose) had never seen so much gloom. Mr, BROUGHAIq said that the gloom might per haps be more naturally accounted for, by the Loan which was just contracted for. MIVROSE contended that the . feeling, of the general body of the Merchants was averse to the proposed suspension. , Mr,. BARING said, that if any gloom did exist, the Right Hon. Gentleman should charge it upon his colleagues, whose measure it was. He - dwelt upon the importance of comingto a specific, deci sion, and determining either tb support the Or ders in Council, or to give them up: immediately. Ile disapproved of the House interfering with the Negociation by any diseusSion, if it could with propriety be avoiied. Lord CASTLEREAGH observed that he had stated already his reasons -for not going into the Hon! and Learned Gentleman's misconceptions ; he Should content himself with declaring now, that neither the statements which had been made here or in any other quarter, should have been al- - luded to. Mr. ATTLBERFORCE thought, that if any con cession was 'made, in shoUld. be made in such a form as Would induce America to open her ports to us. Nothing could be more injurious than to take a measure which would create great expecta tions without fulfilling them, or which would lead the President to doubt the spirit by which they were dictated. Many conditional orders were given for the shipment of goods, in which a mis understanding might produce the worst conse quences. Mr. OtNNING expressed a hope that a case would never occur to require the instrument to be firOnght before the House, as the tendency of such a proccedini , mighthe.to injure the negociations. He knew that there was great evil in uncertainty; , and that almost any decision was better. If they, gave lip the principle, they'shotild give it riii`iii - a way to produce the greatest possible advantage to the manufacturers, and if they could conceive that the President would omit to do wha - t-the the Congress had enabled hlin, 'it was necessary that our terms should be clear, that it might ap pear. the fault was on his side, not ours. The call of the Houie was then fixed for Thurs day next. MR. SHERIDAN AND THE HOUSEHOLD. Mr. FITZGERALD, after congratulating Mr. Sheridan on his recovery, expressed to the House in the name of a Noble Loid (Lord Yarmouth),' wile was absent from indisposition, the regret which he felt at not being able to attend the llouse. It was not probable,that any thing re quiring his presence would take place that day; but he felt anxious to assure them, that nothing but positive disability could have prevented him, from attending. It might appear extraordinary that he (Mr. W. Fitzgerald) who was not con cerned in the transaction, should have been the bearer of this message; but as he happened to be present at a conversation between the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sheridan) and the Noble Lord, the Noble Lord was desirous that he should make this statement. Mr. SHERIDAN said, that the fact was precisely as stated by his Honourable Friend. Before he came down.to the House, he had felt it his duty to call on the Noble Lord, and found him in such a state as Must render his attendance ithpossible„ He had also stated to the Noble Lord; that on that pait of the question, in which he (Lord Yar mouth) Was concerned, he had so little further to sav,..as rendered his presence unnecessary*. It was but a mere marginal part, 'an episode from the leading matter, and was rendered still more unimportant from the circumstance of there being no difference between them on' that part of the calumnies which applied to either. He should . now proceed to submit his reasons for concluding with a motion, as he intended, and they would. probably allow him a feW words more. From a circumstance which had - just -come to his .know ledge, be understood,-that in another place which' it was not regular to mention, persons were ex cluded from the expected - discussion; and thus ont-, of the usual channels closed to,the informa tion of the public. He should first. proceed to an allusion to the speech of a Right Honourable Friend of his (Mr. Tierne y t ) who sat on hie right, hand. He had stated that he (Mr. Tierney) hav ing asked hith. (Mr. Sheridan) whether the:House hold would resign, he (Mr. Sheridan) expressed opinion that it would not, and after some questiOns to the same effect, offered a bet' of five hundre..d guineas to him- [here Mr.' Tierney ex pressed his dissent], or to any• one, or to every one, that nO such thing was in .consideration:— . Upon the face of the story, it was improbable, for be was not very likely to offer a wager of five hundred guineas to any one;or to, every one, who never was in the habit of wagering a single half penny. He wished 'his Right Honourable Friend had added that lie had staked the money, for that would have discredited the whole story (a laugh). However, he should not quarrel with kilo QD. this tioint ; be should have the Ave hundred guineas —he did not mean the poney. (An universal lauglo But, what Would_lie the consequence .he would Icave it to their good sense to decide, if every loose answer was to be brought down to the House of Commons in serious times like these when minutes and memorandums were becoming such necessary concomitants in. all conversations. For the future, if any one meeting li at St .1 ames 's street should ask how he did, he would take care how he committed hiuiself. He would revolve upon the danger of the- answer he was about to give, and perhaps in his anxiety, would be induced to look round fota witness who could prove that he did nothing morethan barely answer the clues : - tion but he would give up the point. What then was the case ? His Right Hon. Friend had' said the Household had resigned,• for that Lord Robert Seythour had said so, and he (Mr. Sheri dan) had said in return, that he did not believe it, because he knew that it was contingent upon circumstances which were more reanite at present than at foriner periods. He would ask his Right Hon. Friend, did he not express to him the same day his surprise thatsany matter should have•oc curred to break off the negotiation .between the Earl of Moira and the two Noble Lords ? He (Mr. S.) had asked him the reason, to which he answered, that they reqUired of Loid Moira 'an express authority - from the Prince Regent to con cert a new Administration. He. should now state the result :—Lord Moira'S letter of the 3d of Julie, offering a renewal of the negociation, was forwarded to the Noble Loris. On that very evening, he was addressed by Mr. Ponsonby, in the peesence of the Duke of Bedford,. Who -said, "We hear, Sheridan, that you consider Lord Maira's letter as, a renewal of the negociation." He said, perhaps it might be negligently - written 5. but - there was one thing which . they could not dis pute with him; he, knew . - the intention 'of the writer. Lord MOira sent the lett( e offering the tenewal : the next day but one, an answer was sent bAk, through the Duke of Bedford, declin ing an - unauthorised discussion. Lord Moira thought that answer a conelusivebreaking off of the negociation; he (Mrs Sheridan) differed from hith in opinion, and spoke7to him on the subject.— He afterwards sent for his, I-lon. Friend, the Mem ber for Bedford, and a meeting took place at • Lord Erskine's. Lord .Erskine' wished that the negociation should not: be considered as broken off. His Noble Friend the Member for Bedford, after reading the letterthrough, gave his opinion that it Was not conclusive ; upon which Lord Moira conceded, and at the very instant wrote to , the Prince for further powers. The powers were granted, and a letter was immediately written:to Lords Grey and Grenville, stating that he had the powers, and that he was authorised to address hiMself particularly to the, Noble Lords. By this statement it would appear from first to last, he .had been favourable to .the Noble Lords, and never had omitted an opportunity of exerting hiMself in their favour ; and it was with the tit- Moat 'regret he found the Negotiation was broken off on the sine qua non of the dis' missarof the Household. He had not heard that it was •hroken off until the next day; when be was . told it by the Hon. Gentleman, who stated 'at the same time, that Lord Castlereagh and Lord Liverpool were appointed. He had said on the preceding night, in a manner which, perhaps, required some ex planation, that if he had the power, not one of the Ministers then in place should hold their pre sent 'situations. He did not mean any disrespect towards them personally ;—on the contrary, he had a general respect for them - all; neither was :he influenced by -the decision of the House, by which they were supposed generally .to have been cashiered He had said it in the same seeise as he had said of Mr, Perceval, when it fell to his lot to announce his death in the TosVn Hall at Stafford, where he was glad to say it was 'received in a very different and much_more generous man ner than it had been in other places ; be said it in the same sense as he had then said of Me. Per ceval, that had he lived, he could scarcely expect to expect to give him a vote ; he said it upon the ground that they were hostile to the measure which above all others he was attached to, the Catholic question. He, would - not sup port any Administration acting on such a princi ple, 'and keep a ftirlough for that question 5 he could not support them merely upon' the under standing thatit was to be taken into considera tion,- fOr it ,might be taken into consideration with no other view than that of proving it not to be' the way to benefit Ireland... He wished to. Fee e%neessions made on both sides- - -.eon the part of the Catholics, as well as .of the Government, that they might make their cause popular in this country, ~and remove all alarm and discontent from the minds of those who, under such int pressions, 'Would deny them substantial advan tages. A 'negOciation for this purpose could not be carried on by those whose hearts were against their Claims; He thought the cause of Ireland was paramount ; ~ife these were. to be the last words he should ever utter in that. House, lie would say, " Be just to Ireland, as you value your own honour; be just to. Ireland as you value your own peace." He would address the Administration, and particularly the Noble Lord who had reserved to himself on coining .into • the Administration more than a liberty on that subject. Ile Would conjure them, when die saW them gracefully giving up the Barracks, when he saw them giving up the Orders in Council ; for given up they were, although : in-a sloping, ' con fused, and unintelligible rhanner ; lie, would con jure them to go one step farther, and give up the Catholic:Question—a question to which they were not more pledged than those which they had • already conceded. , If the Gentlemen opposite, who were men Of-business, would be contented to undertake the journey-work of the State, and to apply with their usefhl talents the principles of those who 'opposed them, he could not conceive a better coalition, for .the good of the country — (A laugh).—lt would- indeed be a most broad bottomed Administration, not liable - to the ob jections with which such Administrations are mostly chargeable. Without a perfect union of 'mind in the Cabinet, little could be expected. He did not believe that the public mind had recovered the effects of the coalition of Mr. Fox and Lord North. Another coalition was proposed; and which he thought would have been of incite chief also, and which he used his best efforts to prevent. At the same time he thought it but austiee to observe ) that he found in that indivi dual (Lord Sidniouth) such estimable private qua lities, and such good public intentions, that he gave his administration all the support be- could. He was surprised at thesneering of• a Right Ho nourable Gentleman, A vhen an allusiOn was made t;) the strength which the present Ministers would derive from an alliance . with Lord S. He could not forget, that, when that :Noble Lord was io' office, he had promoted the most successful mili tary measures, 'adhered to the Constitution, and permitteihtbe laws of- the country to revive.--' - He did- not exactly know what those sneers meant which he perceimed. Instead of indulging inthese, he wonld be glad if any Honourable Membef would get up and answer 'MM. `That' i.,, the 'course which he had purSued in giving his bum' Me support tt. that Administration (the tS chid.: nistration of Lord Sidmouth), he was actuated by no personal or selfish motives, was 0540;1 1 from one simple fact. 'Whfle that Administration - was in power, a very valuable situation hod been offered to hiM through a Noble Earl (1.1: 1 ' St-Vincent) for his' son: This - , / though ofletel more than once, his ,son had refused, and refused on - the ground that his 'accepting it utiglit se& to cast a t atain on the support which he (Mr. S.) bad been in the habit of givilg the Government.. ' For the correctness of flit statement be could ar peal to the Noble . Lord hinfself, but above all e lic' T could appeal to his Right Han. Friend near ghee' Now, as to :the present Ministers, it hail been seen that the House on a certain .day came to a vote which went to imply that they. were unli t to hold the reins of Government, which on' carried by a- majority of 2, and that on a sub quent 'day they had voted them fit for their situa; tion by a Majority of 125. What was the cause (3 ' .. ' .this ? How vas it to be accounted for? Thos e who formed the Government had since the for' mer vote been strengthened by, no new accessio n 1 of talent. They hail' gained. no new influenc e ; and therefore it should seem the change cold' only have arisen from the House and theCountri being against those who were concerned in tl' e late negdciations. If this were the:case, it Nv" s . a melancholy fact, as he knew not how the,cou ti ' try could be hi:might to think that a Gover:von t preferred under such circumstances possessed th r [ t i strength which was wanting 'in a Government, 1 ; - , the present situation of the 'conntrv. After wira" they had seen, it appeared possible that the last, vote of the House might be negatived like tn': t which had preceded it, and going on thusn' l l ' e negative of that House on an A ali dministration gn t soon be considered as merely a nominal censure' • The result, however, of the motion of a Nobl e Friend of his, he trusted, would be a resolution, not that the present Government had made ant . acquisition to recommend them to the public, b i ': that the conduct of those principally concerned l e the late negociations had, set, Parliament and th Country against them. He had wished that an;- t ; tempt might be made to save the country, a .t % , what they had seen, without applying eithe r , t i i g . that party which had'rejected power, or to-u"' ' which bad accepted or retained it - , by O rin forward a party new to the public, of W hOnl " public could appro6 3 for he conic( nev er end , n t that such a libel should be, cast on the prese r i' d state of society, on Ahe nobility, gentry, I nt commoners of the country, that there was Su' O i „ dearth of talent in the land; that this great u '', try must be suffered to go drooping to peril:6-°. ! ,", because there were none but those two parqj competent to direct its energies. AII he e°,l say of those papers which n had been printy, and which he held in his hand, was, that b s could ' not look upon theM but with feel i e "d of sincere regret, that such ; changes as .be 1 :, - t lived 'to witness should takelslace. ' He thonse,, the publication of the proceedings. of 3 ' , gociation was most injurious. .He could rein'' , ; 0 ber the time when two honourable men couidd a , into a room to confer on the formation of a , e , vernment without deeming such a precaution s r is , cessary as appeared of late to lie thought in ( a ... pensable. What was the consequence of the f r a t, , '! mature publication of the negociation ? 1 / .1 ir: . , 1 but to set all classes to the discussion of the'' j e,- . - every private and public house; and by snob re , cussions to divide those who ought to be n n t :firmly united, and thus increase'our diflieniti es ~.. home, while our divisions encouraged the O r , mies of the country abroad. He wished an ,- cr ' e • bargo could be enforced which would 'keep - tl le. , things from going abroad; -to let the na t ''',:a of Europe know, that while we ought to b e a concord and harmony- among ourselves, Gull divisions existed among us.. He concluded movinhag ' gir ‘•"f t an humble Addres , 3 be presented to his Roya•lili „„'clf ness the Prince Regent., praying, that. he would be graci" - ;of -pleased to give'directions, to he laid before this 'lou se ' tlid documeots addressed to his Ro -, , - til Itighoess, relative to se , late ncgeeiations for forming all Adininistration, int: 0 • quence of the. Address of this House, on the 21st of N 4 k,iiii far as. his Royal Highnesv might think such docutuent s c ' with propriety be csmOmunicated to Parlianient." Lord R. SEYMOUR spoke, but could not WT I; .tinctly heard in the gallery. We understood 11 ,1 to say he was extreusely glad that the.Lortis 4 the Household, in the event of a certain ch an t takingplace, had not only determined to res i Y r , . but had taken great pains to publish that deti lig minationsto the country.' He wished to eat er Inc strong protest tii::ainst that practice in which .5.90 Gentlemen indulged, that of quoting the oPu i „, a i .of Members, l.aaselygiven in common cOnv% n . Linn, in that sort of way which had become' e‘ 46 , mon of late. No one could feel greater sati s .'" IA tion at hearing' the speeches of a certain -V i g o Hon. 6a:title:nail than he did ; - but if he i 05,, ,, hear the opinions of two brothers (Of wh ieh r a f, Lord R.S. was one), so quoted on the condu i ,, T , a third, he could not' fOr the future listen to L . " 4 with the same safalaction, as to him such conJa` did not appear to, he Correct, : 110, Mr. TIERNEVYRS not conscious that b-a , , n 4 in . the slightest dee % s, transgressed that courteLr', which was due from one Gentleman to alot a nc . with respect to private' conversation. It was • h • cessary for him to remind thellonse of the 1.: eC.- 1 11 , of the Noble Vice-Chamberlain on a former '' l 3- c t which had certainly produced a considerable eYA in the 'House. He would ask, whether it. 1115 not been hailed by a party . try, as 'that- 3 , r s. went to overthroW those claims to public `s u e)` of Lis Noble Friends (Lords Grey and Grelly'