The Sun. — London, England, 1823-03-19 00:00:00

elle* eircumstances, there would be nothing better than to con.:_ 'alp the custody of so valuable a library to the British Museum. ( However, there was another desirable object, and which had ' been suggested by his Majesty . himself, that the library should be kept distinct and separate; indeed, it would be doing an in justice both to the illustrious collector and the illustrious -.donor, if it were suffered to be mixed with any other . ---•, He t hought that not only in a pecuniary view, though that', was the least consideration, but even in reference to the inte lasts of literature, it was desirable that it should be placed un -der the roof of the Museum. Though it was not the most yaluable library existing, yet he belived it was unquestionably the most valuable ever collected by an individual; and if to . this were added the collection already in the Museum' increased by the splendid donation of the late Sir Joseph Banks, it - would not •be inferior to any collection in the world. The Museum, enriched by both these libraries, would then possess a collection of which the country might be proud. He thought it was best to entrust it to the guardianship of the Museum, .but at the same dine other sugestions might occur, and some regulations might be necessa ?y for its proper custody ; such, however, as would be consistent with a fair and.. liberal admis sion of tie public. He would not enter into the details, be eaume they would be better digested by referring 'them to a Committee, and he should therefore move that the papers he referred to a Select Committee, to examine them and report .thereon. Sir CHARLES LONG said, that In seconding the motion of his Right Hon. Friend, he would trouble the House with a few words, and state that it was his opinion that the collection ofhis late Majesty was the most complete ever made. No ex• pence or pains had been saved in procuring every valuable work. A great part of the collection was made under the direc tion of Dr. •tolinson. He laid down the plan, which wee ad hered to till the collection was completed. Having had the honour of a communication with his Majesty on, this subject, he could state that it was his Majesty's wish that the public should have the freest access to it, and that every person should have an opportunity of using it, limited only by whatever re gulations were necessary far its safety and preervation.— Wear, hear, hear I)—His Majesty had another wish, as was stated by his Right Honourable Friend, a natural one, indeed, when it was considered the collection was made by his ve nerable Father—that it should be kept distinct and sepa rate. He could say there was never a more complete ar rangement in any library. The catalogue was so framed that reference was made to every work. This lie mentioned, because it did great credit to those individuals who placed it in that state. When united to the library of the Museum, and • that of the late Sir Joseph Banks, small but perfect, it would - form the finest collection in Europe—such a one as this country ought to have. lie could also, say, that it was the gracious in tention of his Majesty to add to this munificent donation ' a splendid collection of medals, which had also been collected by his late Majesty. His Majesty was the acknowledd patron of the fine arts, and by these splendid donations, he ws shown himself no less the patron of literature and science, and was • therefore entitled to the gratitude of the House and Country. The motion was then agreed to, and the following Com mittee appointed : Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Bankes, Sir Charles Long, Sir James Alackintosh, Mr. John William Ward Mr. 'Williams Wynn, Lord Viscount Normanby, Mre Arbuthnot, Mr.. Davies Gilbert, Mr, Grey Bennet, Mr. Heber, Mr. Robt. Smith (of Lincoln), Mr. Ridley Colborne, and Mr. William •Bankee. REPEAL OF THE ASSESSED TAXES. Mr. MADER LY rose for the purpose of bringing forward the motion of which lie had given notice for the repeal of the Assessed 'faxes: lie abstained from bringing the subject under the consideration of the House until Ministers had submitted their plan for the repeal of taxes. Though the National Debt Redemption Bill passed, he did not think himself precluded from proposing a further repeal of taxes. There was a clause in that Bill empowering the House either to alter, repeal or amend it in the course of the Session. They were not, there fore shut out by that, measure from supporting the proposition be should submit to them. It was not necessary for him to say he disapproved of that Bill. He should, however, for his pre sent purpose, take the surplus at what it had been stated, 5 millions, applicable to the reduction of debt. Ile did not con cur in the measure passed last Session with respect to half-pay and pensions, for the purpose of raising the surplus to this amount, and he considered ha fraud on the understanding—a perfect delusion. The Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted -the expediency of repealing in part those very taxes to which his (Mr. alaherly's) motion had reference. This narrowed the question between them, and reduced it to this—whether, under all the circunistances, his proposition was more likely to bene fit the country, and to support public credit, than that of the Right lion. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer.)_. Ile thought a re&Action of taxes would give more support to public credit than any other measure, for public credit would be raised in proportion as the burthens of the people were lightened. It was surprising, after all the petitions which had been presented on the subject, that Hon. lientlemen seemed to take so little interest in it. It would be naturally expected that lie should first take a short view of the finances of the country. It would - then appear that taxes might be repealed with safety and advan tage to the country. He would first state the surplus at five millions. The next thing to be considered was the sale of the land -tax, and he felt convinced that no better measure could be proposed for the support of public credit and the reduction of debt. To designate it as a juggle was coarse in point oflanguage and also unfair, If it wits a juggle, it was the juggle of Mr. Pitt and not his. Taking die surplus at five millions, he (Mr. M.) proposed a sale of the land tax to the same amount, and the repeal of three millions of taxes. From the last measure it was natural to anticipate an increase of revenue, and lie would estimate that increase at 490,0001. This would give in the first year a revenue of 10,400,0001. applicable to the reduction of e debt or the repeal of taxes. He proposed to deal with it in the following manner. Ile would repeal assessed, taxes to the amount of 3,200,0001. which would leave a balance of seven millions for the reduction of the debt. No one could say that this wits impracticable. Ile contended the Land Tax might be made so salee;ile us to redeem in the course of a few years 41 millions of capital. Supposing the extent of the sale in the first year to be 5 millions, there would remain, after the reduction of 3 millions of taxes, a balance of 7 millions. The ballance in the second year would be the same. But he should pro pose an extra sale of 2 millions in the third year, making the whole sale for that year 7 millions. This would enable thorn to pay off the 41. per cents. and therefore produce a saving of 750,0001. There would then be a balance of 2,950,0001. for the redemption of debt. In the fourth year he would again carry down the balance of 9,950,0001. He would calculate to arise in this year, from increase of revenue, and a more economical mode of collection, a sum of 1 million. There would then be in the fourth yeer10,950,000/. applicable to the reduction of bebt. In the fifth year he would suppose a falling off in the sale of the Land Tax to the amount of 2 millions. This would bring down to 8,950,0051. the sum applicable to the reduc tion of debt. Ilia statements would appear still more fa vourable, if calculated on the principle of compound interest. In the sixth year, he would have to make another allowance for a cleficency in the sale of Land Tax; the sum then would be 3,950,000/. applicable to the reduction of the debt. He would put it to the Moan whether this would not be better than to have during the whole time a Sinking Fundof only ti millions. They would thus in six years reduce 62 millions, and the public would be eased of 3,200, 0 0 01 . taxes. Its pl an was not a visionary one; but Ministers were determined neither to re. peal taxes, nor sell the Land Tax. Incalculable advantages would arise from adopting it. Public Credit would be more effectually supported, and a greater amount of debt would be ,r deemed. The country would lose nothing by it, either ire character or dignity. Ile would now come to those taxes he proposes} to repeat.; the first was, that on windows. The amount of that tax, wide!) it was not intended to repeal by the Bill of the Right Honourable Gentleman (The Chancellor of e the Exchequer) was 1,205,0001. Re would reduce it to a net eaoin. wee quite clear that both the Window and House elauties ,were a partial Property Tax. They were so to a great extent. By tile. Returns from the Tax Office he was enot enabled to give the .amount of Assessment in pounds sterling. That, howevet, on Rouses lie could give. Ile be lieved the rate per Cent. on Windows was about 20/. He had ',in his possession a Return from one particular parish that bore him out in this. In that parish the average on win. ;slows and houses combined was 331. per . Cent. This was nothing more nor less than a Property Tax. What would the Landowner or the Fundholder say if such a burthen was posed on him ? Fano the time of ICing William it went on in- creasing by little and little, till it amounted to 31. By an accu rate account he held in his hand, it appeared that the Rouse Duty was 111. 10s. per cent. This bore very heavily on the pub lip, and he therefore proposed to repeal it. The next he should propose to repeal was that on Male Servants, Clerks, and Shopmen. It operated as a partial Property Tax on that species of labour to which it referred. It might be said that makers paid it ; but did they employ so many servants as, if there was no such tax ? The next tax he would repeal was that on four wheeled and two wheeled Carriages, Tax Carts, and • Coaelimakers'.Licences. They not only made coachmakers pay a tax on taking out their licenses, but entailed on him an annual ,duty besides. This was the heaviest tax that any manufacturer paid. A carriage in this country could hardly he considered a iluxury. It was, where there were so many opulent people, one almost, of necessity. A Gentleman's carriage paid 121. duty, horses 151, servants 111. 45., arrnorial bearing 2/. Altogether t was not leas than 361. ss. lid. This was very hard on coital tenakers, because it was clear he could not sell so many carriages as he would if there was`no tax. If a carriage was taxed as an it'aurYi why not impose an annual tax on a looking flass, It was more an article of luxury than the other. How. tver there was no such tax on it as could chock the consumption. The next duty he shouldropose to repeal was that on Horses. 'Thelast tax he - should - propose for reduction was, diet of com position, which amounted to 25,0001. for he considered it only fair, that if he repealed a- tax entirely, the composition en. tared into by individuals with the revenue to compound the same should also be remitted. Ile saw no occasion to trouble the House further, having stated that the resources of the coun try were sufficiently abundant to afford relief from taxation,and yet to support public credit to the amount recommended by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. No one could be more dis posed to keep up public credit than himself if any thing in his plan could by possibility interfere with it, no lion. Member of that House could be disposed more deeply to regret it. His opinion was that every man should stand upon the basis of pub. lic credit. lie could not help thinking, that looking at the subject in the same liberal manner in which it had been re ceived by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (and to whom, but for his having lent himself to that which he must call a tie. lusion, by which a debt was imposed upon posterity pro. fessedly for our relief) ; with those views lie felt it his bounden i duty to take the sense of the House upon each individual tax. That course might occasion trouble, but he could defend it on good grounds; for many lion. Gentlemen might be disposed to vote with him on one item, yet feel it necessary to oppose the others. For example, one Hon. Member might deem the Window Tax one which ought to be repealed, yet that the duties on Carriages, Horses, Servants, &c. ought to be pre served. He should consider himself therefore to be neglecting his duty did he not use all possible means to insure the success of his object, and through it produce a great advantage to the country. He was extremely sorry to he obliged to occupy so much of the time of the House, particularly after the long discussions that had already taken place upon these subjects; but the House would recollect, that on the very first day of the Session he had given notice of such intentien, and had only postponed it lest it might interfere with the plans of• the Right lion. Gentleman opposite. He therefore hoped that he should not be accused of having acted unfairly, in bringing the sub ject again under discuss ion .—( hear, hear !)—The Hon. Gen tleman then read the resolutions, and concluded by moving that the first be adopted : " 1. That all duties on windows, imposed by 48 Geo. HI. and subsequent acts, shall cease and determine. " 2. That all duties on inhabited houses, imposed by 48 Geo. 111. and subsequent acts, shall cease and determine. " 3. That all duties on male servants, imposed by 48 Geo. HI. and subsequent acts, shall cease and determine. " 4. That all duties on licenses to coachmakers, and on four and two-wheeled carriages (except on taxed carts), imposed by 48 Geo. 111. and subsequent acts, shall cease and determine. " 5. That all duties on taxed carts, imposed by 48 Geo. 111. and subsequent acts, shall cease and determine. " 6. That all duties on horses, ponies, and mules, imposed by 48 Geo. Hi. and subsequent acts, shall cease and determine. " 7. That all agreements to compound for duties with the Commissioners of Assessed Taxes, under the 59 Geo. 111. and subsequent acts, shall cease and determine." Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY, in rising to scond the motion, stated that the opening of the present year was all gloom, until the speech of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which he confessed had opened to his mind a new era of hope and satisfaction. He trusted that the principles of that speech would be carried into further operation. He had a particular objection to the Window :fax, as one which deprived the poor of the light of heaven, and of the air which was necessary to life. The collection of this tax was odious and insupportable, owing to the visitation of Assessors and Surveyors. He had before mentioned a case to the House, in which a lady was frightened into fits by the intrusion of one of these persons into her most private apartment.—(A laugh.) Mr. HERRIES rose to oppose the Resolution, but the Lion. Member spoke in a tone of voice so very low as to be hardly audible in the Gallery throughout his speech. He was under. stood to say, that his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had so fully and so eloquently explained the nature of his plans, that it would be unnecessary for him, even were he competent to the task; to enter into a detail of those plans. The question now to be consiJered wus, not what was the partial pressure of any tax, but whether, under all the circumstances of the case, we could afford to make any further reductions than those proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Moberly) admitted the necessity of sup porting a Sinking Fund, " but," said that lion. Member, " if you will adopt my plan, you will have a more effective Sinking Fund than that proposed by the Chancellor of the Excheq uer, " This he (Mr. 11.) denied ; he, on the contrary, maintained that the Hon. Member's plan would leave no Sinking Fund, and therefore one part of the Hon. Member's wishes the House was bound to adhere to—he meant the maintenance of a Sinking Fund.—[The lion. Member again dropped his voice in such a manner as to render him for a time inaudible in the Galleryl.— If the country were In a state of distress, proceeding from taxa tion—if the people consumed less of those articles which were taxed, then, indeed, there might be &stronger case made out. It would then be a question, whether taxes should be continued, even to supportpublic credit. "But he contended, that the coun. try was not in that state—maybe conttary, the state or the man try was very different. lie did nut mean to deny that amongst some classes distress prevailed ; but he contended, that the ge neral state of the country was by no means in that state that could justify them in forsaking that system, which he consider ed necessary for the maintenance of the public credit. The Hon. Gentleman talked of the distress that prevailed—but what was the fact ? Why, there was a considerable increase since 1817, of carriages, servants, &c. There was. also, an increased con. sumption of most articles. He. therefore, did not conceive that the House would be at all justified in adopting the proposition of the Honourable Member. Sir F. BLAKE said, he regretted that the House, in its wisdom, bad passed the National Debt Reduction 11. It was allowed that the principle of a Sinking Fund depended on the amount of surplus Revenue. Was it not incongruous then, that there should be a Sinking Fund of five millions, though there was but a surplus of three millions ? With respect to these, three millions should he given to the people by way of re duction of. Taxation. For to think of exterminating a debt of eight hundred millions by a Sinking Fund of three millions, or of five millions, appeared to him quite idle. Gentlemen said, why make this fuss about the National Debt? The thing will last our time. lie was of a different opinion—and he was sure, unless a remedy was applied, there would be a dreadful convulsion. It was not with a Sinking Fund of five inillions,that he would pay off the National Debt. He would recommend a more effective way—he would recommend the people of this country to conic forward, anti, by sacrificing a portion of their property, preserve the remainder. Mr. MA 'WHIN replied, and the House divided upon the first Resolution. For the Resolution . . - 48 Against It - . 94 Majority - . _ 46 The other six Resolutions were then put and negatived with out divisions. WELSH JUDICATURE. Mr. JONES rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill upon the subject of the Administration of Justice in Wales. The Hon. Member stated that the Bill was founded upon the Re ports of the Committees which bad sat upon the subject. In explaining the alterations contemplated by the Bill, the Hon. Member was generally inaudible owing to his speaking from beneath the !gallery. He moved for leave to bring in a Bill to increase and extend the power of Judges in Wales, and to amend the laws relating to the same, Mr. HUME said, he hoped the Hon. Gentleman would in troduce a clause to prevent Welsh Judges from holding seats in that House. Mr. JONES said it was not his intention to propose such a clause ; but if any Member thought proper to do so, he should have his suppoh. Leave was then given to bring. in the Bill. Lord A. HAMILTON gave notice,, that to.mortuw se n. night he should move for leave to bring in a Bill to abolish the inferior Commissary Courts in Scotland. INSOLVENT DEBTORS' ACT. Mr. P. MOORE rose to move the total Repeal of the In. solvent Debtors' Act. He had promptly undertaken to do this upon a former occasion, in order to give a definitive di. rection to the views of the House and of the country upon this important question. Some described the Act as ,net meriting amendment, and others as not worth it; and he had therefore ' come forward to destroy it altogether. It had been said why not send it to a Committee. But lie answered to this that the sub. ,sect had been before 200 Committees, without any of them know. mg what to do with it. He did not mean Committees of that House, but Committees of those who suffered under the Act, and sent their Petitions to the Rouse, praying that something might be done to relieve them. He moved that leave be given to bring in a Bill for the repeal of the several Acts called the Insolvent Debtors' Act. - . Lord ALTHORPE did not think that th petitions which had come before the House formed a sufficiedi justification for repealing the Act altogether; and he could not, therefore, sup port the motion of his Hon. Friend.---(Hear, hear I)—He was willing to admit, that many amendments to the Act were ne cessary and very desirable. lie was satisfied that this task was to be undertaken by the Government, because if he, or any other Honourable Member on that side of the House, proposed a measure, it would not be likely to find so much support. Those who desired to repeal the present Act altogether would do well to look at the law as it stood before 'its enactment. Debtors were liable to confinement for life, and the consequence was, that the prisons became so c r o wded that every now and then a fresh Insolvent Act was necessary, and, they were all discharged. Thus the honest man who had been oppressively confined for a long time might be released, but the dishonest and fraudulent debtor, who might have been in prison only a few days, came out upon the sanie terms. He had always thought that the imprisonment under the present Act was far too short a time.--(Hear, hear!)—lt was not regarded as it ought to be in the view of a punishment, and it consequently had not the effect of deterring fraud.— There was another amendment of which he thought the law capable. The giving power to the creditor, under certain cir cumstances, to allow the discharge of the debtor. He threw out these objects to those who might propose to amend the Act ; but if his Hon. Friend pressed the present motion, he should vote against it. 111 r. C. W't believed that, under the Insolvent Act as it stood originally, there were many abuses and hardships, and that the power given to the Insolvent by the pre sent _ law had considerably diminished them. The subject . . of the Insolvent Act had engaged the attention of the ablest men in the kingdom, and many different opinions had resulted from that attention. To those who opposed the Act, he was willing to admit that for one cruel creditor there were nine fraudulent debtors; but still, when the question of im prisonment came to be considered, he could not admit that the creditor was the proper judge of the degree. Indeed all who opposed the power in the creditor of imprisonment for the life of the debtor must be friendly to the principle of the Act. He was friendly to it himself, thought he would be glad to see some modification of many of its provisions. Mr. ABERCROAIIIY could not agree to. the motion of the Honourable Member for Coventry. A recurrence to the old ' law would be highly injurious to the . creditor ; for, as had happened before, the gaols would be filled until t he were crowded, and then a tempor ry Act would be passed for dis chargingthern, without regard to the conduct of the different debtors. He understo9d that there was a sum of 10,000/. in the 1 .-- ;.;64 the officers of the Insolvent Court ready for distribu tion among different creditors, not one of whom applied for any dividend. He thought the House ought not to part with the principle of the Bill. In Scotland the law was more lenient than it was in England ; and yet the people- there were per fectly reconciled to it. There was, no doubt, in, Scotland, a cautious disposition against the giving of extensive credit, and he thought it would be better if that disposition found its way to England. He could by no means agree to the Motion. Mr. HOBHOUSk thought that, if the Hon. Mover really wished for any alteration in the present law, he could not do better than leave it to be proposed by the Solicitor-General, from whom it was sure to receive tint favourable attention from the House which was withheld from measures generally proposed ftom his (Mr. liobliouse's) side. He should be glad to wait fot the promised measure of that lion. and Learned Gentleman, and trusted that, when he produced it, it would he found to contain some provision for altering the constitution of the Insolvent Court. He had just received friiin on of his Constituents the hill of a Solicitor of that Court for conducting the business of an unopposed Insolvent ; and the amount was not less than 4:21., tcn guineas having been charged for drawing the schedule. In this case, therefore, the Insolvent, who had not been opposed by his Creditors, was liable, after having given up all his property, to be arrested at the suit of his'At torney for getting his discharge. Sir R. WILSON was happy to say that there was not one of hii constituents who did not approve of the principle of the Bill. He thought it required modification ; and trusted the task of al tering It would be left in the hands of the Law Officers of' the Crown. Mr. BRIGHT, though he was against entrusting a creditor with the power of imprisonment for life, wished to see a mate rial alteration of the present law, which appeared to be easy of evasion. He thought the writ of Habeas Corpus removing debtors from the country to town should be taken away; that the confinement of debtors seeking the benefit of the Insolvent Act should be within the walls and not within the rules only of their prison • that, in the case of persons being remanded by the Court for fraudulent conduct, the allowance under the Lord's Act should be taken, and that persons who lent them selves to the circulation of accommodation paper should be punished as fraudulent debtors. He hoped the Solicitor-Gene ral would not overlook these suggestions when he prepared his alterations; and, under all the circumstances, he recommended his Hon. Friend to withdraw his motion. • Mr. SYKES admitted the inconveniences resulting from the present law, but he approved of the principle on which it had been framed. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he collected that the feelings of the House was in favour. of the principle of the Bill.—(Bear, hear, hear !)—lndeed, if the motion of the lion. Member were acceded to, all the powers - vcsited - in the dif ferent persons acting under the Insolvent Act would be re scinded. Many persons would be liable to new arrests, many sums of money now in the hands of ditferent persons for dis tribution would become impounded, and every inconsistency and extravagance would follow. Most of the provisions of the present Act were necessary to give effect to the principle of the Bill ; so that as a necessary consequence, no one who ap proved of that principle could vote for the present motion. He had examined all the petitions which had been presented to the House on this subject; and he found that no one suggested a practical remedy for the evils of which they all complained. --Much had been said in favour of the Irish Law, , and he had therefore examined the Irish Act, paragrkpli by paragraph with this English Act, and he found that their provisions were the same. He did not deny that evils existed under the pre. sent law ; but, he believed they were much exaggerated. He thought that whenever a debtor appeared to have dealt fairly, gave up his property, and consented that his future property should be liable for the payment of his debts, his person should be discharged. This was the principle upon which he ap. proved of the law.—(Hear, hear !)—He thought the provisions of the present Act were good ; but lie believed that creditors were generally inert, and declined bearing the expcnce of bring. ing evidence before the Insolvent Court, to chew the fraudu lent conduct of their debtors. When t hey were thus inactive they must take the consequence; and ought not to expect persons to be confined. upon a mere surmise of fraud. The debts discharged under this Act were stated to amount to 10 minions ; but this was a mistake. Every person legally edu cated was aware that a man who had given a of Fxchringe, which had circulated among several persons, was compelled to put each of them in his schedule lest he should not insert the proper person to whom the money was due. This circumstance rendered necessary the insertion of many debts several times over, so that the nominal amount of the debts appeared to be not unfrequently ten times more than their real amount. The deficiency of assets was to be accounted for in the circumstance that persons discharged under the insolvent Act were generally persons in an inferior situation of life, without any capital ; while in cases under the Bankrupt Law s the object of them was generally a person in an extensive business, and with a considerable capital. He could only assure the House that he had no desire to withdraw front the pledge he had given to di rect his attention to the subject. —(lleat, hear !)-- He should do so Most assiduously, and would, in due time, state to the House the result of his labours ; and if he though he could do so effectually, would suggest an. imprdvement of the present law.—(Cheers.) After a few words from Mr. J. SMITH, and from the Som.. CITOR.GENEItAL in explanation, Mr. ELLICE said, he entirely concurred in the general views of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and was most happy to find that the Law Officers of the Crown had pledged themselves to take up the subject. ~ Mr. HUMH E hoped,that when the on. and Learned Gen treman proposed any alteration of the present law, it would in clude a reduction of the present expense of carrying the law into execution. He trusted also that the operation of -the Bill would be extended to Crown Debtors. He was not only for the principle of the present Act.; he was against imprisonment for debt at all. lie could not, therefore, but desire to see the benefit of thelaw allowed to Crown debtors, many of whom re mained in Custody 10, 15, or 20 years, and some of whom died in custody. Sir J. NEWPORT said, that the Irish Insolvent Law was generally approved of. This, he believed, was mainly to be attributed to the limited credit which was given by traders in Ireland. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, in explanation of a remark of the lion. Member for Westminster, said that the Bill he had referred to was not any Act of the Court. It was merely an ordinary Attorney's BR Mr. HOBHOUSE said it was the Bill of an Attorney of the Court, for obtaining the discharge • of the prisoner under the present Act. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that it might, like other Bills of Attornies, be taxed in the usual manner. Mr. C. WILSON spoke in favour of the principle of the Bill, though he wished to see it modified. Mr. P. MOORE said, his object had been merely to awaken the attention of th e House and the Government to this subject; and no better mode suggested itself to him titan the present motion by which he could: gain that object. Having gained it, he should, in consequence of the pledge given by the Solicitor- General, cheerfully withdraw the motion. The motion was then withdrawn. MARRIAGE ACT. Dr. PHILLIMORE, referring to the New Marriage Act, observed, that it contained a clause, directing that it should be read by the officiating Clergyman in every Church at least four times a year, under a penalty of 0/. It was admitted 'that this provision had done no good ; on the contrary, it had done harm; for in several instances, Clergymen had, from the malicious mo tives of some of th e i r parishioners and others, been summoned for this penalty of 51. for not reading the Act in the Church. He therefore proposed to bring in a short Bill to repeal this part of the Act, without mjudiee to the general measures for amending it, which were now in their passage through both Houses. The Hon. and Learned Member accordingly moved for leave to bring in the Bill. Sir JOHN NEWPORT thought no Act of Parliament whatever ought to be read in Church. He thought it was a most improper practice.—Mr. C. WILSON concurred in the sentiments of the last speaker. Dr. PIIILLIMORE also concurred, and remarked that he bad himself refused to introduce the clause in question. The Bill he now proposed to bring in might probably be extended so as to meet the sentiments of the Right Hon. Baronet. Leave was then given to brinpr in the Bill. LORD LIEUTI.NANT OF IRELAND. Mr. HUM E, adverting to the notice of motion which he had given for dispensing with the office of Lord Lieutenant, Chief Secretary, and other great officers of Ireland, stated that he wished for certain information upon various points, in order to support the case he intended to lay before the House. He should therefore move for several returns. The first was a Return of the Income and Expenditure of Ireland for the year ending January 1823 ; his object being to shew that England had to contribute between two and three millions to wards the expenditure. He next wished for an Account of the Imports and Exports of Dublin, in order to shew that that part had gained by the Union. The Returns, therefore, which he required on this point, would be for a period of ten years be fore 1801, and ten years preceding 1823. The next was a Re turn of the Tonnage of vessels of Ireland outward and inward, distinguishing those of Dublin. The next was a Return spew ing the Amount of Fees received by the Council Office and Secretary's Office in Ireland for the last two years ; but if there should be any difficulty, he would be satisfied with this account for one year. And the last was a Return shelving the Amount of Fees paid to the Attorney and Solicitor-General and other King's Counsel of Ireland for the last five years by the different Government Offices, distinguishing the sums paid by each Office.—All the motions were agreed to. MUTINY BILL—FRANCE AND SPAIN. On the motion for the reading of the Order of the Day for the third reading of the Mutiny Bill, Sir F. BURDETT rose. Although it was not his intuition at that late hour of the night to enter into a detailed line of ar gument on the principle of the measure which was then before the House, he wished to make a few observations in order to ex press his desire that the atrocious system of flogging in the army might be abolished. He had hoped that that system, which was so disgraceful to the military regulations of Great Britain, would have terminated ere this. There was no ground for rea soing on the propriety of such a regulation, degrading as it was to the feelings of every man who valued freedom, insulting Is4lll it wits to every spirited man, and even worse than disgraceful—dishonourable as it certainly was to every soldier. It might indeed be maintained on the principles which a Noble Lord, the Secretary at War, had advanced the other night, that his Majesty was justified in inflicting it, in the same manner as the exercise of the Royal prerogative justified the dismissal of an officer from his regiment without the charges which caused such dismissal being specified. It might be contended that the in fliction of such a dishonourable punishment as flogging was as' correct as the dismissal of an officer without an investigation of his conduct before a court-martial ; the state of the regiment might be said to demand both the one and the other ; and though no reasons might be given for that necessity, except what were stated when the subject was brought before that House, he felt that the public and the army ought to know those reasons. An Hon. Member had, on a former night, called the attention of the House to the one; he hoped that that Hon. Member would persevere in the line of conduct which he had marked out for himself, and that the dismissal of an officer with out an investigation before a court-martial, would be either proved justifiable, or relinquished for ever; for himself, he would without entering more at large into the subject, state his deter mination on the first open day to bring the other matter fully before the House for its consideration, and he hoped to be then able to adduce such reasons as would prove to every unprejudiced mind, that that odious, unmanly, detestable punishment ought to be abolished.--(Hear!)—As he was upon his legs, he was desirous of using that opportunity to make a few observations on another important matter—the foreign policy of Great Bri tain. A Right Hon. Gentleman, who was then absent from the House front the results of a recent indisposition, had, in answer :0 a question from that side of the House, given an answer re- Lative to the line of conduct which had been and was to be con- tinued in with regard to Spain. At the circumstances on which that answer was founded, he could not but express his extreme surprise, nay more, his sorrow ; he would u se the strongest epithet which the En g li s h l anguage su ppli e d h im the use of to express his feelings, at circumstances which the Government of Great Britain had allowed to become such as to lead this king dom into a line of conduct unworthy of this country.—(Hear, hear !)--:lluch had been said respecting a standing _army in England, and many arguments had been adduced to prove the utility of supporting it—they all centered in one opinion, thata standing army w as necessary to support the b alance o f power in Europe. For that purpose watt the people of England called upon during peace to dedicate a great portion of their annual earnings to maintain an army. 'et now the principles of that support seemed forgotten—they were neglected or relinquish ed—and that balance of power, which had cost England so many hundred millions, was now to be destroyed.— (Cri , :s of Hear, hear!)—and England was to look patiently at the contest. Great Britain was to be neutral. Her policy forsooth required that the treasures of centuries—the toils of her Statesmen—the efforts of her people—the blood of her bravest soldiers, should be scattered over the world in vain —(Hear, hear o—all was now to succumb to the will of France. Eng land was to sit by calmly and patiently—she was to see Spain, which had cost her such a mass of treasure, such a deluge of blood, assailed, overrun, and subjected to France.—(Hear, hear I)—Perhaps it might be said that the absence of the Right Hon. Gentleman ought to induce him to abstain from those ob servations ; he was not desirous of going at length into the topic; but he felt that as an Englishman he could not but em brace the opportunity which was then afforded to him of enter.. ing his protest against the line of conduct adopted by the Go vernment against the dereliction of duty of which the Govern. meet had been guilty, when they had thus, forgetting all the ancient rules of British policy, allowed the most flagrant as sault on the liberties of an old and generous ally.—( Hear, hear!)--If the Right Honourable Gentleman, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, had been present, he should have entered more fully into the subject; but, notwithstanding the absence of the Right Hon. Gentleman, his feelings led him to express his astonishment at the promises which had been holden forth at the beginning of the Session, and the results of those pro mises at present. It was impossible that his Majesty's 11ini sters could reconcile those promises with the results of their conduct. This 'nation bad contracted an enormous debt ; efforts were daily making to alleviate the pressure of that debt; but though that pressure was great, ye he felt that the people of England would all unite with him in a ny sacrifice in order to maintain the honour of the nation inviolable and annul_ lied.—(Hear, hear, hear o—England0—England might be oppressed by taxes, but England was not so reduced as to feel that her honour was to be hted, insulted, or violated by th e fa roily of Bourbons . -( Hear, hear, hear !)—England would n ot tolerate that her ts, her privileges, her allies, her own freedom, her individual security, should be trampled upon by any Bourbon. Yet was it not about to be destroyed by the connivance of the Government ? Was not the present line of policy contrary to the long recognized policy of Great Britain ? Did not the best interests, not only at present but during every reign within the last three centuries, require that liberty s h ou ld be extended through Europe ?—(Hear !)---Was England now to succumb to the will of two of three aggrandized coalesced despots ?—(Hear, hear o—At this time it might be said that England was not prepared—but the Bourbons of the South, as well as the Despots of the North;pught to know that England was willing, was able to assist her friends.--(Hear !)---If he did not think that England was capable of the greatest exertions for such a purpose, he should have hesitated to speak his se,ati. ments ; but England required that that House should express her sentiments. As Mr. Burke had said of France at the com mencement of the French Revolution that it was then blotted out of the map of Europe, England was now blotted out of the map of the world, if her old policy, her best interests, the freedo m of mankind and her own National honour, were thus forgotten, abandoned, and destroyed.--( Hear !)—He remembered to have heard one of the greatest men who had ever sat in that House, a wise and enlightened Statesman, who had always supported peace as a real blessing.to the country, say that the national ho nour ought not to be allowed to be attacked with impunity. Mr. Fox had declared that there was one case in which war was jus tifiable, when the honour of the nation was at stake.—( Hear !) that .no sacrifice could be too great to prevent any taint upon its honour. Was England then to sit still until France had subju gated Spain ? Would En g l a nd no t stan d f orwar d to support a brave and gallant nation, combatiug for freedom ? England re spected her treaties, she would defend them.—would France respect them when she came to the (=fines of Portugal ? Would France, which assailed Spain for no other reason but because Spain had obtained a free Constitution, suffer that same Constitution to be triumphant at Lisbon, which the French soldiers might have insulted at Madrid?—(Bear, hear !)—The Note of the Right Hon. Secretary of State, as he understood it, seemed to indicate the intention of Government to repel all armed attacks upon the independence of Portugal; but if the independence of Spain was overthrown, who would secure that of Portugal ? If Portugal, the ancient ally of Great Britain, was in danger, why ought not Great Britain to stand forward to de fend it ? Was it not ridiculous to say that Great Britain would wait till the conflict should be over with a nation which had be fore fought a ell by the Side of Great Britain—which had proved itself worthy of possessing liberty in its truest sense?—(Hear !) .—He would not trust himself with entering more at length into the subject. Ile had promised merely to enter his protest against the dangerous, the impolitic line of conduct called strict neutrality, which was now imposed on England--a line of con. duct deprecated by every Englishman—by every freeman. He would always protest against such doctrines. Why had his Ma jesty's Ministers deluded the House of Commons by specious promises at the beginning of the Session ? Why not openly have declared the real state of the case ? Why allow the House to effect reductions in matters which might be useful from their continuance to the interests of the country ? Why had his Ma ; jetty's Ministers suffered the House to remain idle so long with. out a full and fair statement of the case ? The conduct °this Majesty's Ministers seemed not therefore to be fair in did al' 1 lowing the House and the country to be deluded. Did tbeY l think that either the House or the country would support tbe,n; i in a line of conduct unworthy of England ? The subject i wtr e yet come before the House for a full discussion ; h,e w ° T d .r en state his sentiments at greater length ; but he woula not tat own without entering his protest against all that line d conduct which tended to bring contempt on the nation and to destroy the best interests of the country.—(Cheers.) Mr. PEEL rose rather to deprecate discussion at the then moment than to reply to any thing which had fallen from dle Hon. Bart. whO had last sat down. The admission of the Hon. Bart. himself justified the course which he (air. 1. ) W. P ut ' suing, because if it was not proper without due notice ,till lessbring on a motion for the abolition of military flogging, so u less was • ject to which the latter portion of the Hon. Baronet's speeehna"„ applied. Right lion. Friend (ildr.Canning), who was sPsen , ' it prudent, without regular notice, to discuss that soli; only from intlispmition, had stated, that shortly after the Loaf h w e ith diff al er m ed os e t n u tir n e i : recess/ he should be prepared, if matters remained in the ir P re m sent position, to lay a full statement before the House. He c c i d re have wished that the Honourable Baronet had waite d , be ° A he made his charge, to hear what case the Government cot?' , make out. For his own part, he was free to confesso,l; upon the subject; and he believed that the country would.har, I onotent with the maintenance of the honour and interests of f;eg i l c , `ers fr : in sa th ti e sfa li ct:e n n ° , ura th b a le t whir ~.. Ten was nothing at present in her foreign relations ' duced Government to think that her tranquiiihY would be to turbed..—(Cheers.) t able Mr. HOEHOCSE vindicated the conduct of hi: Iloilo ~,, Coie, who, in merely lifting up his voice to &cloy Fa . " .. ; l n ie o c ould not acquiesce in the conduct of Ministers, ha i e t a ; thing contrary to Parliamentary usage. lie c enttli on e if this country allowed its ancient ally Spain to 136 ;01 province of France, it would, as his Ilon. College pt, said, be blotted out of the map of nations. He woutu... W heil more.at , present, than it did not appear that this coyntther nattered strictly to neutrality ; but, on the control', ]tad he tad L leaned f 0 to the side against liberty. He alluded tL) winuthat our , ,Bpaerroinceett Jirri :ri11:4)4 the foundation of tmcentradicted rumour to so';,e e ' cor teito Ministers at Madrid had endeavoured to persuade '''' if they modify_ that Constitution to which they had ssegn't and 00. had come in as friends to give the advice to that ,teat de' rious nation to dishonour itself, this Country w as ... n to the rded. The Hon. Member then turned his atte.nno . nc lutiny.Bill, which was the question before the ly ,r o e l ,t could not admit the argument put forth 11 tbi l s i ':', scond , War the other night, upon the old Acts of Charles'. his Of that the King possessed the prerogative of disiiiissual.,. oc firers; for in that very time there was no standing An i l holy' Noble Lord objected to this' d. . 1)ew" s o. arguments on own , by 1 i tered up, to use a favourite expression of iit , woo ~ tl * * tonnes such as Montesquieu and Blackstone. . 1 .ti ou ja therefore, offer him one which, on such a sabl e ` book scarcely fail of being conclusive with the Selm e . , she , This was no less than the opinion of the tin , ~. ' ti t " on the occasion of' the disivissal of Lord Cow 81, , gridsoil t,! l !bought the Crown ought not to exercise such A P°";;: te , Illir it did not legally possess it. A dead King, lt / 111 ', I vo; bi ll not carry as much weight as a living Sec et si„rogOe' be thought this was tolerable authority against the o re o j 4 He should speak more at length on this subject en ' of his Hon. Colleague's motion. 1 dien °' Mr. COUILTENAY professed to hold an oci" ) in get OB tr o tal . .!. 0 Bally opposed to that of the lion. Member for , v oiou" the ' the this subject. He considered that what front h „ li ras ~ downwards had been the practice of the 3100f.e"Breetxte: law of the land. There might have been so , 'c iie 0 114 1105 opinion on the subject during that period, hi.icto,:.... 00 „b io the Honourable Member to point out allow 0( that 0)cl) it had been essentially doubted by the H tili` no t to 1 10 1 . 4 , possessed this prerogative. He tr ust be pern,li_t te ilot, 11 0 ,; much weight to the authority of George Wr ithou gh Dr l ,';'; ward by the Honourable Gentleman, who, a' ct frela, t c c ', here by principles dear to this country, was _Y r „,,c4).)..,,f who could scarcely know any thing whatever ,0 . , ,, „ co l! e . . 0 1, ticin of this country ; as an individual, his oP:S t i oge theetl i as little weight. But, setting aside authorl es , i t were t, t iyo! posing the question were now asked, wh e h argot" - not advisable to o endue the Crown with auc, v - rota, oil , He contended that it must be answered in c tu_.„ tle al P ot , ! (Hear, hear, hear !)—An army without tb n tr i.-- i i i ,',,on a power would be most dangerous to the 71"tonehe 'jiffy, bear !)—Chi the other subject which be.' been soreolot ot in the course of this discussion, he would 11" now t° . 0 0 1 further than to declare his opinion in 011' ° t i j „k the b` o further Hon. Baronet oppcmite, that he did oot _low, lt of ern• sentiment of the nation was in favour of War r . ut if t ho u 0 ill° National honour was a great considenition; 0 0 0 pes, o ol meta could preserve the national honor, ski o f tile,,`„,. hee tame time they would be entitled to the tia cto in rti l air for not taking a co urse w hich would b e lie fil i c ° bo oe tilewatlaP"P'itY.—illear, hear, hear !)- - ea i n th . e ce we re o f th of Prosperity were now impr oo l l i,a if peace to. qe . e country, and would be :teen to " ea w all liti he g ieh tcl , ' Preserved. liThether it could be Prime en t ' t t e• e nation could only be known when the to lloe' t i. te con; Honourable Secretary had been known to ong to ic e so mere fact that peace was to be kept proved n° 3 tiiiit Pc a ct trary. He believed it proved the TCVerSel a nd Se O Sr li° al honour ' Inwht go tobcether.--(Hear, Bear') ,__ !t i g ht , .„, b Sir ROBERT WILSON though thatl7,,t sat ef oaslf eretary, and the Hon. Gentleman all° Pr., a- )le y r :re!, thrown down the gauntlet on this, aulp,,P•ii, e pel„, a r persuaded, for one, that the majorty 0 ' wa s 1 . , w 5 01 '''' favour of war inithe cause of Spain. . it t the 014 1 105 * ,,, g1 tyrants and bigots of the human race agan" to t thts to ts" demdence of free nations. The pet'!' l 8 / 3 e Vi v wo uld Wil t js!r, against the liberty of ,this country, and such a rau se ' in t o House to see who were the abettors of s — w h a t it Irs' t ol ts. was a war against Spain to force her to do ~ herenlot of 1 she ever could do without for ever esclialtald th 104104 pathy of the world, viz. to force her to Yt' 4 ho c oulilr o ot 6 0 ; nour. An abject Briton indeed he roust be. who rioupa 0 t see what was going on b y , France aiminst Sla in I „or, ashamed of the inactivity - of' his t:r .111 eeuntrlit.,: ni r"°;;,0 ,,, ,, Let been answered onthe subject of the F r °p ! , astitli '; eve Bill ; but he hoped the generous people '`,,,Ailin 0 :00 1 1: that Bill were repealed or not, viol& tot r . „ o wet t ",,ithe, ,„ n ' l ii their best assistance by every means in chore a doe opt P . nish cause. lie hoped it would he remeniher_,,, hs ,i . this Bill was then in force, the standard of lib er , l 4u 'J to rtl . ,r,, planted in South America by British hands." - e l toyV 1 )1( 5 1 Mr.` THOMAS IVILSON did - not e%II ve e ilolh ef o willingly as the Honourable Baronet had to ot tra be din as he advocated an opinion in opPea kien tf it 01 noli ltel • put forward by him. Ile though that • t •., to . 0 1 r,, with honour, it would be better for t hat • 40/ . 0 ., peace. He did not hesitate to say, that in e o ' f roec!,,,e, mon France was adopting a shameful course„onee " I v Ot t! wards Spain. But it did not follow, because ; 01 .1 . ),, ,thr y 17 0 of folly, we should do the same.—(lear' f pesee , r itict 4 ,o chants of the city of London were desiroosf na y ss'otf) gearlyealffered, and although ready to ol ar lio this c national- rod, they earnestly sought to inaint co ed a state o ~,, t o, self „ r ot 0 peace. the ~;o i t r Sir F. It LAKE thought this country oe, t he ~ , e r,so Spaniards, because if the semi-barbarians o' i jit o n ' t vole Spain, England would eventually fal l si „ l , l ly,, b ` t for " . s wreck of nations. He was a friend to ee°-1:00,0, ~ $ l ,, let them not discharge single bl bodiet.., ],t at ''~(0 . a ac - rid t i , ill were all wanted for the liberties of th e w°r- ol° lent et t!) to have heard that our Navy was in an exet rc iga ty ..... , ( ifer i j l ciency, for that was our bulwark agaitn't ''' a iti se. . 0 0 1 10 and be said—" Long and for ever, may it re„,. e leit e i OP Colonel DAN'lES'thought that after tlle r r e gnteP' t orl , 4 0 which bad been madethe C WI g e r' ' " t ° tbe - • to .-P1e11,,,,g, odor tell cro, country on a late occasion, it was ..,,'.. tt o s, 01 e st, backs thus upon them. If it were only 010010,0, ?. ..41 1 0 3 nigh Representatives that we wished thou s oot ing of li se o i tsion was there to call together Si) sole mn $ i .ai llg W as '' ' ',ne' e hear, bear ! and a laugh.)—Whether tile ri` with v/ - 0 - c• ~ sp irit, 0 or not in its form, in its nature, an" o t hey' sso therefore he contended it was inconsiste 0, , 50 1 t ...410 o f purpose of telling the S aniards that v.' o ' fier ooo 70.01.3 one si., a t e i „v• - , ctn. lie considered thatPthere wash u- p... lac, i; attended that meeti --1 a to sOP_A th , 0 . in but was vie g ,feo. - t i ot l, o 4' S ' Pain by his voice in that llouse. Ile h ' 7 i fo o the % t ,l4l,:i n ido , voted for the Estimates, as they eate e .,",f,, - of M i t i ;', l brieer r ; the sole view of strengthening the Jaw -- o ort - e t ion - ,ht• what was, as he thought, their wish, to suPltight ' por te nt When he first heard of the sickness of the . „„ us e he, c 10,, t ir tary (Mr. Canning) he was sory for it, he„`m ntr y io t'l n , de!, t o retarded and damped the ardour of the r" s i g ht l'w tioe7t l e e up the Spanish nation ; but when he ow w e do wa tl„ oas ,, man quit that bed of sickness tot pie, he yes" A 01 0 , blast for ever the hopes of a gallant peoP' Fr''''' to j had been confined to his bed still long er ' h i s fion* bolt b,f,,ii; Mr. RICARDO wished to explain his to ti r lint to had just sat down that he attended theowao, t h , e cti l ase tt a alluded, from a feeling of syropathl t he( ' pit - 4 b wis e 111 lie . ' but he did not therefore admit that e. _.,,„ t hi l'ff e ase 4 ° 0 3 00 vote for war.—(Hear !)—lie thought !. r, t i,c J 1 Asj of A hut fair '1 theY " country to keep out of war, an. - , lic tore l a . the Right Hon. Secretary's statement '' , in ree d f lw, the case. se ntinle n ` friel l orP Mr. DENISON professed the sane his ll°"'yerY c ,,, the his attendance at the dinner alluded to, ought t o be, fat esv had just sat down. Ile thought how we rushed into a war, of which we w e ood t ot of o r 4 ' 4 O P • oof r - Pi r ' 0 a consequences. di con, eta r Y al ls to Sir J. NEWPORT lamented - c oon , See r o iags .he gp i had not been left where the Righ t of the Seer w fling) had left it in the former par! ..itbout lice impossible to pronounce a judgine' w