The Sun. — London, England, 1837-02-23 00:00:00

hl Aouth—a speech in which there was some reference to a re- as clearly as those who remon s t ra t e d w ith you.—(Hear.) You r oun d your Ch urc h," " R a ll y roun d your C onst i tut i on. creant Whig— tell me you have fears for the Church. y I shall not use any They appealed to the passions of the people; they got the Sir J. GRAHAM—That was a long time ago. warm language with respect to that Church. If that Whigs out of office, and in eight years after they passed this Mr. SHEIL—WeII, no matter; I don't know how long it Church be, as it is said, built upon a rock, it is a very hard very measure.—(Hear, and loud cheers.) Yes, in eight svas ago.—( A l aug h . ) Si r, i n my opinion, this measure be- one. We are told, too, that there are millions of men ready years they passed the very measure which they made such fore the House must be granted: In saying this I assert no to die for it. If it will afford martyrs, m a ny o f th em are as s t renuous an d di scre di ta bl e e ff orts to o b struct.—( Ch eers.) morere than was sa id, I believe, the night before last, by the ready to insult and put to death others as well as suffer such I ask you, ar e y ou pl a yi ng t h e same game now ? — (l mmense Nuble Lord w h o s i ts b e hi n d t h e Right Hon. Baronet. The themselves. I will not suggest one word against that Chu r ch ; cheerin g .) I d o not say you are , b ut if you are , s h ame, . Noble L or d sa id mun i c i pal corporation reform should not but, admitting it to be the asylum of truth, I still cannot but shame upon you.—( Immense cheering.) Let the facts speak he granted to Ireland. I say it shall be granted.—( Hear, think it unfortunat e that that Church is made the plea for for themselves. Look at the language of the journals in your bear.) The Right lion. Baronet has also referred to a refusing every concession. If we ask for the remission of a interest. Look at the papers containing the names of the meeting which was held at a place which he calls the severe and grievous impost, you answer, the Church—if we subscribers for the publication of " Fox's Book of Martyrs," Lichfield House of Commons. Ile described the resulof ask you for any benefit, you answer, the Church—if we ask with the name of the Duke of Cumberland at the head of that meeting as a com p ac t b etween two part i es. I h ave you to do justice to Ireland, and make perfect the Emancipa- them.—( Loud cheers.) What was the language used at the al ready stated the expression I used with respect to that tion Bill, you still answer, tile Church.—(Hear.) You say Mansion-house in Dublin 7—Ay, at the Mansion-house, the meeting —I said that there was then formed " a compact we must hale time same Church in both countries; but yo u seat of the Corporation, and at a meeting at which the Hon. alliance." But if you were to hear of the Lichfield House cannot have in both the same Corporations, because the same and Learned Member for Bandon (Sergeant Jackson) at of Commons, do you remember that in 1831 there was a Corporations and the same Church cannot exist together.— tended? What said the Evening Mail? Why, that the mo meeting at Brookes's Club?—( Cheers.) Does the Noble ( Hear from the Opposition.) Then the Church of eight hun- ment Lord Roden appeared there with Orange emblems, as- Lord, or the Right Hon. Baronet, remember that on that oc- dred thousand is to be maintained, and the Corporations of Burning an attitude of thoughtfulness, and exhibiting an Orange "'ion there was an assemblage of Irish Members, who had seven millions to be refused.—( Cheers.) I now come to the handkerchief, he walked up the room. Then, said the Even differed from the Government, and who were called upon by course which was pursued on the Reform question, an d the ing Mail, there was a display of Orange handkerchiefs; then that Whig Government to forego their differences, and enter observations I have to make cannot be at all applicable to came peal after peal of the Conservative or Kentish fire. into " a compact alliance" with them ?—( Cheers.) The the Right Honourable Baronet. The Tories stood forward Does the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Baronet were m em b ers o f as th e opponents o f re f orm — t h ey o bj ecte d to re f orm b e i ng approve o f all this ? Tile Right Hon. Baronet's speech at , t hat Whig Government. The Right Hon. Baronet shakes hi s c o nce d e d t o I re l an d. Th ey sa id t h at re f orm wou ld ann ihil ate Gl asgow was di st i ngu i shed for its moderat i on. B ut t h e Ri ght "ead, but there is nothing in it.—( Laughter.) All must re- their power in Ireland ; that 44 the Roman Catholics would Hon. Baronet could not cheek this formidable display, al collect the course taken by tile Noble Lord on that occasion. not only drive them from the guns, but turn tile guns against though he might entreat for a forbearance to offer gratuitous The Noble Lord in a paroxysm, I will not say of after dinner them."—( Hear, hear.) Thi s was the language of the Re- insult to the feelings of the people of Ireland. But lam oratory, delivered one of the most powerful speeches I have corder of Dublin, and of every other Irish Tory who sp o k e on dwelling too long on this subject. I will come to tile ques ever heard against the very persons with whom he is now ope- the subject. 'What did the Noble Lord ( Lord Stanley) tion. All we ask is simply justice. Can you reconcile it r ating. I have not adverted to this subject for ally malevolent then say of the cautions that were thus given by those with with common sense or justice, that I, who stand in this House purpo se ._( Hear, and ironical cheers from the Opposition whom he was now sittin g ?_( H e a r , hear. )—Here is the lan- as Member for the county of Tipperary, cannot be a member members.) But have I not a right to advert to it?—( Cheers gua l „se of the N o ble Lord. Citations, I know, are not fa- of the Corporations of Cashel or Clonmell ?--( Loud cheers.) from Members on the Ministerial benches ?) Is the Lichfield- vourably received here; b u t wh e n the Right Hon. Baronet The thing is monstrous. We ask for justice, and we will house meeting to be made the subject of discussion in this spends the recess in gr o pin g out speeches—(laughter)— persevere in the assertion of our just cause.--( Cheers.) If House, and out of this House—and is a mee ti ng a t w hi c h t h e w h en h e even re f ers to C a b rera ' s mot h er--surely a person t h e T or i es come i nto power, they shall find us here—( Cheers) Nobl e Lord took so conspicuous a part not to be made the may be excused from reading s uch a d ocumen t as this.— —they w ill*fi n d us com bi ne d a nd con f e d erate d aga i nst t h em. subject m a tt er o f d e b a t e ?—(Hear.) Is tile one to be fair game ( Hear. )-1t is very short. I bgin with a paragraph referring We beat them before, and we will beat them again.— and the other to be prohibited?—( Hear, hear.) If you are to the Irish Members. Th e extract is taken from volume 17, (Cheers.) What is our cause ? I will tell you what our not disposed to do justice to Ireland, do justice at least to the page 2278 of the Mirror of Parliament. Lord Stanl e y cause is. You took from us a Parliament. If you left us our person who is now speaking to you, and who will break through thus speaks :—" I call upon those who are f or re f orm i n Parliament, there would have existed in Ireland the same do no rule of decorum in his address to you.--( Hear.) The Engl a nd to look back, and consider what has been the con- minion over that Parliament as the British people have over Right Hon. Baronet in the course of his address to you pro- duct of the Irish Members with respect to that Bill." We theirs. But you bought our House of Commons, and you paid ceeded to comment on the General Association. Now, I certainly carried the Reform Bill. A majority of Eng- fer it in gold ; ay, gold in its most palpable and sordid shape. think that lie ought to feel that this was dangerous ground for lish Members, a majority of Scotch Members, voted against You affected to enter into a league with us ; and the head of him to tread uPon—if not for himself, at least f or his exis t in g it. We insured it s success , I i nvo k e , th en , th e p eop l e o f the Admi n i s t ra ti on o f th e ti me , th e great Mi n i ster o f t h e d ay, associates.—( Hear.) Yo u t a lk o f t h at Associat i on. How England and the people of Scotland in this crisis to stand be- by his classical references elucidated and illustrated that great "g ago, I ask, is it since the Right H on . B aronet t h e M ein - s id e use__( Hear, hear, and cheers.)--The Noble Lord then mutational compact.—Twenty-nine years had passed before her for Tamworth, when called upon to form an Association, proceeded to speak of reform in England and Ireland. He said, this House took a single step for carrying that contract selected its the objects of his speci a l f avour th e mem b ers o f an 4 , If it be just here, s o it mus t b e j us t the r e."—(Ch eers .) —" I into effect. At length Emancipation was forc e d f rom y ou , A ssociation which has since been denounced by the House of entreat of the advocates of the Conservative interest (the Noble Parliamentary Reform came next, and Corporation Reform Commons. —(Cheers.) The lion. Member for Sligo, the Lord was then on this side of the House) and those who con- was given to England ; and now, when we ask you for the Treasurer of the Orange Society, was promoted—(Cheers)_ sid er th emse l ves th e su pp orters o f t h e P rotestant i nst i tut i ons, same p r i v il eges w hi c h you exerc i se yourse l ves, you re f use the tr easurer o f a soc i ety that tampered with the army.—(Loud to look at the danger to which those institutions are exposed. them. Yes, that which you had not dared to refuse to the cheers, and cries of " No, no !" from Colonel Perceval.) By withholding the privileges which this Bill confers you will people of England, you have contemptuously denied to the Have we not the evidence of that? Has not the evidence been give to Ireland a real substantial grievance.--( Cheers.) It people of Ireland. Is this justice? Oh, but there is an Produced in this House that the Orange Society was in corn- will give a handle for agitation—a great argument for the anxiety to do us justice.---(A laugh.) This is the language munication with the army ? Was the re no t th e d ec l arat i on o f repea l o f t h e Union.—( Loud cheers.) Do not let them say that has been always used ever since Strongbow first put his the Duke of Cumberland that he was unacquainted with the that in the House of Commons English interests were treated toot on the shores of Ireland. Yes, every Englishman to fact ?—(llear, hear.) Is there an Orangeman in this House— one way, and Irish interests in another—( Cheers)—that in whom the Government of Ireland has been committed, pro- Is there a Gentleman in this House—who can deny that the England public opinion is attended to, while in Ir e land the fessed the utmost solicitude to do justice. Even Strafford, Proof s were afforded to us that warrants were issued t o th e p u bli c voice is stifled. I, for one, cannot conceive how, in a the deserter of tile people's cause—( Loud cheers)—the rene army ? Will that be denied ? spirit of fairness and justice, this can be done. Agitation will gade Wentworth, while setting his foot on the necks of Irish- Colonel PE RC E VAL—Yes, I deny it...so( H ear , an d cr i es br e ak out, and in a manner that it has never done before. I men, declared his anxiety to do justice. lam not surprised at of o m s I Order m"e wish to state distinctly, that I did not say cannot conceive that any thing can be more clear than that this, for the same influence now exists by which Strafford was that warrants were not issued ; but I did, and do say, that the there ought to be all extension of the English Bill to Ireland. influenced. But while all others professed to do justice, there a rmy was not tampered with.—(llear, hear, from Members on I cannot conceive (his conception has since improved) how we is one amongst you of the most distinguished talent, and the the Opposition benches.) can refuse to treat both countries equally, and make the same most decided character. He is not a Member of this House Mr. SHE IL—We do not materially differ. In fact, what principle applicable to all the members of the empire."—(Loud —but he spoke at least with more frankness than others of insist on is this, that warrants were issued to the army. W e cheers.) Now the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) his party.—( Hear.) He does not profess to do justice to Ire have that in the printed reports; we have it, too, stated there spe a ks of fears f or th e Ch urc h, an d s h ows di st i nct i ons b etween land, he is above i m p os t ure , an d part o f t h e ep i tap h on Char that Mr. Bo ton moved that warrants should be sen t t o a p ar - th e t wo coun t r i es . If t h e Ri g h t H on . B aronet (Si r R . P ee l) t ees is applicabl e t o hi m . This distinguished person tells us, .titular regiment. We have abundant eviden ce o f th e f ac t, an d w h o s i ts on hi s r i g h t h an d w ill d o me t h e h onour o f a d vert i ng w h en ma ki ng an appea l to t h e pass i ons of the Eng '? Consequence of that evidence, Lord Hill issued an order t o to anything I say, I hope he will have the goodness to extri- lish people, he tells us—the people of Ireland—that in every the army. ( Hear, hear.) 1 entreat tile Hon. and Gallant cite the Noble L or d f rom hi s difficulty—( H ear an d l aug h ter ) particular be which stran gers can b e enumerate d we are a li ens to Gentleman opposite (Col. Perceval) to believe that, if I ref e r —and certainly it will require all the consummate dexterity this country.—(Tremendous cheering, which lasted for five to him, it is in no spirit of unkindness. I fairly and frankly for which the Right Honourable Baronet is so conspicuous minutes, and was renewed with bursts of enthusiasm. Lord tell t _ him that Ido so, because Mr. Pig o tt b e i ng a me m b er o f t o serve hi s f r i en d, f or h e certainly is n ow i n nee d o f it.— Lyndhurst was sittin g un d er t h e ga ll ery. ) Th e p h rase is cu e Association has been so much dwelt up on by Honourabl e (Cheers and great laughter.) Is it n o t, a f ter a ll, a pa i n _ tainly a remarkable one, an d one w hi c h now b e l ongs to hi s - Members on the other side. I point, th en , t o th e H on . an d f u l t hi ng t o see the man w h o u tt ere d sent i ments lik e t h ese _ tor y.—( R enewe d c h eer i ng.) I t i s one wh i ch must neces e'allant Member who was promoted by th e Ri g ht H o n. whose principles were so advocated—is it not a lamentable sarily be the subject of observation hereafter. lam not Baronet the Member for Tamworth. I shall only advert to tiling to see him occupy his present position ? He will forgive aware whether that phrase has ever been attempted to be ex another —Lord Roden, who was also ra i se d t o a ver y hi g h me for saying, that it i s more w i t h a f ee li ng o f mournfulness p l a i ne d.—( C r i es o f " Oh , o h , " and cheers.) I know the office : he is, I a d m it, an individual of the highest respect, than resentment that I see him where he is.—( Hear, hear.) phrase has never been distinctly disavowed.—( Immense but a member of the Orange Association. Surely-, then, It is melancholy to see him where he is ; and th e pai n i s a g_ cheering.) I know that the utterance of that phrase has not when the Tories make charges against the present Govern- gravated by tile tone and charact er of th e sp eec h es h e h as been denied, and with respect to the meaning of it but little anent for promoting members of one Association, they ought lately addressed to this Hou s e. The man wh o spe a k s thus, or doubt can be entertained.—( Cheers.) I know that in this to recollect that they dwell ill so fragile a tenement that they who uttered such langu age am id th e accl a mati ons o fth ose w h o House upon occasion immediately after that remarkable phrase rani: of w i t h i m p un i t y i n cur the danger of a tile being flung heard him, that is the very man who tells the people of Ireland had been uttered I took the liberty—if it be one, I beg pardon upon the roof of their place of refuge. (Laughter.) So that they never shall have Corporate Reform. —but I took the liberty of asking every one w h o h e ld a con much with respect to one Association; but th en th e Ri g h t L or d STANLEY — N o, no. sp i cuous pos i t i on on t h e opposite benches whether he adopted lion. Ba r onet has adverted to other Associations—to the Bir- Mr. SHEIL—If he did not say so, I beg his pardon. the phrase or not.—(Loud cheers.) I remember more mingham Union for instance. What, I ask you, is the reason, What did he say ?If he recalls the phrase lam satisfied. especially the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for if you condemn these Associations, when Lord Brougham ad- Lord STA NLE Y—l never used it.—(oll, oh, from Mem- Tamworth on that occasion saying that be was not responsi dressed the Birmingham Union, at the time they passed a hers of the Ministerial Bench.) ble for any language but his own.—(Loud cheers.) The resolution to pay no taxes—what is the reas o n that th e Right Mr. SHE IL—lt is enough. I admit I was not in the Right Hon Baronet was in the painful situation of being in "on. Baronet and the Noble Lord did not re s ign—why did h e House when the expression is alleged to have been used. I close connection and association with a man in whose expres not then refuse to hold office with his then c o ll e agu e s ? unaffectedly retract every phrase I used under the impression sions he did not think it judicious to express his concurrence. clime he a r.) L et th e Ri g ht Hon. Baronet beware—we that the expression was used by him. —( Hear, hear, and cries I own myself to be astonished that when the word, the contu have not forgotten his public life, though he may have done of " The expression was used.") I understand from the No- melious and exasperating word aliens,—(was it not contume eo.---(Cheers.) He and the -Noble Lord who sits beside him ble Lord he did not use the expression. lious, and is it to be borne?)—when I say that ph ra s e w hi c h Lave tak en as strong a course i n the exc i tement of the public Lord STANLEY—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman etas become fatally memorable, fell from the lips of the bold passions as any one of the agitators who are now the objects has made a personal attack upon me. and aspiring man who gave it utterance, I own myself, Sir, asf their denunciation. I shall not go into the details con- Mr. SHE IL—No, no ; not a personal attack, to he astonished, that Arthur, Duke of Wellington, did not necsed with Ireland. There is only one point to which I Lord STANLEY—What !no attack ! The Hon. and start up and exclaim, " Hold, I have seen the aliens do their mean to advert—the Government of Ireland—as materially Learned Gentleman has made an attack on me, knowing duty."—(Loud cheers.) The Duke of NVellington, is not, lam affecting this question. The appointment of Mr. Cassidy as that I have not the opportunity of answering him.—( Hear, inclined to believe a man of an excitable temperament. His a magistrate is a matter of so little consequence, that it hear, from the Opposition Members.) Ido not complain of mind is of a cast too martial to be easily moved, but, notsvith sought not to he mixed up with subjects of national import- this ; but as he does ask me to explain that which he had standing his habitual inflexibility, I cannot help thinking that &tee. I will tell you what is my view of the matter, as not the opportunity of hearing, and yet to which he is re- when he heard his Roman Catholic countrymen (for we are his connected with the conduct of the Irish Government, and plying, I beg to tell him that I did not use the express countrymen) designated by a phrase as offensive as the abun 'Which I regard as of great importance. The Irish Govern- sion that time people of Ireland should not ever be put dant vocabulary of his eloquent confederate could supply-1 went is acting on a peculiar policy—(Hear, hear)—and in possession of Corporate Reform ; but I stated this, that cannot help thinking that he ought to have recollected the Zlie question is, will the Legislature adopt a similar while the Irish Church was subject to danger, and while the many fields of fight in which we have been contributors to his Peliey ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) Has the Irish Government General Association was using threats and intimidation, that renown. Yes, Sir—" The battles, sieges, fortunes that he has s ucceeded ? Has it produced peace in Ireland ?—( Cries of the more these threats and intimidation were used, the more passed" ought to have come back :upon him. He ought to 4 ` No, no," from Irish Members on the Opposition benches.) would the people of England b e determined that they should have remembered that from the earliest achievement in which he I can produce you strong authority on the subject. I have not have what they thus demanded.—( Cheers from the Oppo- displayed that military genius which has placed him foremost in not the means of referring to official details ; but I refer you sition Members.) the annals of modern warfare, down to that last and surpassing to Mr. Howle a gentleman who unites in a pp ro b at i on o f M r . SHE IL resume d — Th e peop l e o f Ire l an d re li e d com b at w hi c h h as made his name imperishable, from Assaye to Il ia conduct the y, applauses of the Radical, the Agitator, and upon the principles contained in the speech which I have Waterloo, the Irish soldiers, with whom your armies are filled, the Orangeman, and who has received an unanimous vote just read.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord complains that I were the inseparable auxiliaries to the glory with which his of thanks from the magistracy who witnessed his conduct as am making an attack to which he cannot reply. The Noble unparalleled successes have been crowned. Whose were the 4111 assistant barrister. I find in his charges repeated state- Lord knows perfectly well that although I feel myself, and I athletic arms that drove your bayonets at Vimiera through menu made of tranquillity produced in the county Tipperary ; speak most unaffectedly, most conscious of my inferiority the phalanxes that never reeled in the shock of war before ? 4114 by a return from the clerk of time Crown for the same to him in point of talent, I have never shrunk once wh e n What desperate valour climbed the steeps and filled the moats sounty, i fi n d that where 111 were t r i e d at t h e N enag h ses - my pu bli c d uty ca l led upon me to assail him, whether he at Badajoa ? All, all his victories should have rus h e d and Then for riot, in the last session there were on ly t wo .— had a re ply or not .—(L ou d c h eers. ) I mus t appeal to the crow d e d h ac k upon hi s memory—Vimiera, Badajoz, Saha.hen I ask you, has not the policy of Lord Mulgrave sue- House whether I have made an attack on the Noble Lord. I mance, Albueras, Toulouse, and last and of all the greatest, reded Ch eers .) What has h e d one ? He has la i d to wou ld rat h er say t h at there is that in his own breast which . Tell me for you were there (pointing to Sir st that question which you regard as the truly dangerous reproaches him more tha n I can do.—(Great cheering.) I Henry Hardinge)—( I appeal to the Gallant soldier before me, oft .e. Who has heard in our public assembli es i n I re l an d t h e s t an d h ere , in a c ons tit u ti ona l p o i nt o f v i ew , t h e N o bl e Lord's from whose opinions I diff e r, but who hears, I know, a ge o'et 'cal of the Union made a subject of discussion : or if intros equal. The Noble Lord knows it.—( fleas, hear.) I respect nerous heart hi an intrepid breast,) Toll me, for you must ue 'd, but incidentally glanced at—_(Hear, hear, from Opp o - his rank, I respect his talent, I lament his opini on s. L e t me needs rem ember—on that day when the destinies of mankind k tio\ - 1 Members)—a question which, if not dead, is dormant ? add that the Noble Lord himself is not characterised by merc y were trembling in the balance—while death fell in showers i -- (C.'lleers from the Opposition Members.) I have not u t- to his opponen t s. —(Ch eers .) No man fears an operation so upon them, when the artillery of France levelled with a pre ereme ,one syllable on the subject ; but this I say, that if justice much as a surgeon.—( Loud cheers.) I have always heard cision of the most deadly science played upoh them—when dertied t o us h ere, we h ave a r i g ht t o as k f or a repeal of the that the drummer of a regiment has the greatest terror of the her leg i ons, i nc i ted b y the vo i ce, and inspired by the ex ien --(Hear, hear)—and I wish to show you that thi s see- lash.—(Cheers, a n d l aug ht er .) I w ill now s h o w th e reasons ample, of their mighty lead er , r u s h e d aga i n an d a gain dent Naas uttered by the Noble Lord (Stanley) on th e o p- w hy th e 4 , No Popery" c ry w hi c h i s att e mpt e d t o b e ra i se d to the onset, tell me, if f o r an i ns t an t, w h en t o hesitate , side of the House.—( Hear, hear.) What is justice to cannot succeed. I wish to show that this question must be for an instant was to be lost, the " Aliens" blenched t— t'eland ? L et us exam i ne t h e quest i on ca l m l y, as such a sub- carried.—( Loud cheers.) We have carried Catholic eman- ( Continued cheers.) And when at length the moment for e i Ft ought: to be examined. What is justice to Ireland? A n d c ip a ti on , not aga i nst t h e N o bl e L or d , b ut against the R i g h t t h e l ast an d decisive movement had arrive d , an d t h e AWill it not help us in determining that question to ask what is Hon. Baronet beside him (Sir R. Peel.) The Right Hon. valour which had so long been wisely checked, was at last ice to England ?—( Hear.) The Test and Corporation Ba rone t i s as goo d a d e b ater as t h e N o bl e L or d , an d t h e l et l oose, w h en w i t h wor d s f am ili ar, b ut i mmorta l , t h e G reat th e a were at one time regarded as defences to the Ch urc h-- Ri g ht H on . B aronet h as di scret i on, h e has great per- C apta i n excla i med— " Up, Lads, and at them !"—tell me if if the them the Corporations were regarded as the bul war k s sona l i n fl uence , an d a great b o ld on t h e f ee li ngs of his C at h o li c I re l an d , w i t h l ess h ero i c valour than the nat i ves o f i o , t ue Church ; and Mr. Canning felt this so strongly th a t i n coun t r y ; an d w i t h hi s res i stance, w hi c h was as i mme- t hi s your own g l or i ous i s l e, prec i p i tated herself upon the f oe ? ~s re 2 7 he r e f use d to repea l t h e T est an d C orporation A cts. d i ate and as strong as that opposed by the Noble Lord to --(Loud cheering.) The blood of England, Scotland, and of r : ft e Right H on . B arone t ( Si r R o b ert P ee l) re f use d a l so to t h e present measure, we carr i ed emancipation.—(ilear, Ireland, flowed the same stream—o n th e same fi e ld, when them until he was forced to do so ; he had not expe- and loud cheers.) We did that by union, by organization, the:chill morning dawned, their dead lay cold and stark together t i e eetced then the p ro c ess o f so f t compu l s i on w hi c h lie has since and by an associated po w er ; we carr i e d it by th e Cl are —i n th e same deep pit their bodies were d e p os i te d—th e gree n undergoing, and which, I have no doubt, he will yet be election.—(Tremendous cheering.) I beg leave to ask the corn of spring is now breaking from their commingled dust—the °impelled to submit to.—(Cheers and laughter.) Time Test Noble Lord whether, with our power now trebled, we are not dew falls from heaven upon their union in the grave ;—partakers 4tld , rporation Acts were then repealed ; but by means of able to carry on the immediate result of reform ?—( Cheers.) in every peril, in the glory shall we not be permitted to partici 11113_em, `chinery of self-election in the Corporations the people Let the Noble Lord look rouud. Tou see the national power; pate, and shall we he told as a requital, that we are estranged not the benefit of them. Whet was then done ? The you see Ireland advancing with rapidity in the march of im- from the noble country for whose salvation our life-blood was etous e o r C ommons came to a resolution that the Corporations provement ; you see her spi r it o f union, her intelligence, and poured out I—( The Hon. and Learned Member sat down I P o Engi ar , d should be placed under popular control; and the we have t o tha n k the Noble Lord for it, her education—you amidst the most enthusiastic cheering ) as did m tot think fit to reject such a proposition. Do not see the character of Ireland gradually changing ; you see Sir R. PEEL said the lion. and Learned Gentleman op ite Corpo rso tions, then, which are now made to apply to something of British thought; vou see us not only free, but posite, by his personal attacks, had made use of the debate the Irish Chmech, apply in a still greater degree to Eng- we feel as if we had never been slaves.--( Loud cheer s .) I upon the question of Municipal Corporations for Ireland for n d?—(Hear, bear.) In Liverpool the effect of the Cos- may say, without exaggeration, that Ireland not only stands the purpose, not of convincing the reason, but of exciting and rnration Bill had been t o transfer power from one party to erect, but she looks as if she had ne v e r s t oo p e d.—(L ou d inflaming the pa ss i ons . Th ere were ev id ent l y great natura l other. In Liverp oo l t h e T or i es h ave b een com pl e t e ly cheers.) I ma y sa y th at t hi s i mprovement i s genera l . I may difficulties in the subject, hut the Hon. and L ea rn e d M em b er prostrated ; an d t h e people of Liverpool, struck with ad- point at the bar, and show the second judicial office held by had, by a part of the course he had adopted, rendered these tration of the system of e d ucat i on g i ven by the No b le a Roman Catholic.—( Cheers.) I may point to the Irish At- much more so. Was it wise—was it prudent—was it just, Ord opposite to Ireland._(Laughter)_a r l thi s , t o o, not- torneysGeneral, and to many o th ers , if indi v id u al cas e s are he would ask, to ransack every past debate for every angry ,sit.,' - istanding the violent r emonstrances of the No b le Lord necessary, to illustrate the point. It may be regrett e d, it c a n- expression that had been elicited in the heat of warm discus- I lir'sself against such a course , h ave adopted it in Liverpool. riot be denied—the conclusion is irresistible. I say, then, that sion—(Cheers)—to consider and proclaim such as matters of it- h (Ltemr, hear, and laughter.) Ido not know whether the Clare election carried emancipation.--( Cheers, and a cry history ?—( Cheers.) Would time lieu. and Learned Gentleman e No b:e Lord has not also chang e d hi s o pi n i on a b ou t his of No.) N o ! w h at carr i e d i t, t h en ? I s not t h e Duke of oppos i te consent to b e b ound b y the same rule ? Did lie ever be• sYst (me of education.—(Laughte r .) You th en fi n d the Wellingt on an aut h or i ty , an d h as h e not sa id t h at h e could h ear t h at w h en t i me m i l i tary commander i n so many illustr i ous L' a naferenme of power from one p ar ty t o ano th er . I s h ou ld not help it ?—(Cheers.) But if the Clare election c on t r i- fields—that when he, on that very fiery field of W a terl oo to w hich e e .glad to kilosv if, on that account, Liverpool is to be de- hilted to carry that question, what power must we have now? he had alluded, had shared the dangers and had directed the rved of its corporate rights ?—(Hear.) Corporations were How do we stand in this House ? Sixty ! least the great courage of his countrymen, when standing opposed to the Z i n d l idered the defence of the Established Church in England, majority of the representatives of Ireland act together as legions of France, he had led the united bands to victory — and to England Corporate Reform had been conceded.— one man, our power is combined and confederated for one that after he had rescued Europe, and established the military e rn r .) What then eves the c ours e pursued with respect to great purpose, and do you think that this power you will ever fame and the peaceful security of his own country_had the t i , t ar ' e iPation ? have n o w t o re f er to th e Ri g ht lion. Baro- be able to put down?—( Loud cheers.) We are here, thank Hoe. Gentleman never heard of it, that out o f an all-abundant a tn o tb e Member for Tam wor th, an d I b eg pf hi m to under- God, in this House.—( Loud cheers.) I remember the time vocabulary lie could be greeted by no other appellation than nd that Ido not mean to say anything which can be in the when I occasionally obtained admission under that gallery, and " stunted corporal ?"—( Protracted cheering.) Now, if it ' r emoteste e , n degree offensive t o hi m . I su b m i t to him--I beg to I heard men who appeared as the advocates of th e rights of were unfair to fasten upon such words, uttered in a moment of 141 strate with him in language respectful as it is earnest-- Ireland—l heard them, whilst addressing th e House, un d er exc it emen t, an d in the heat of declamation, as indicative of ent 'red he is not bound to fulfil the compact with us that he the necessary of doi ng s o as if in asking for liberty for Ireland jealousy at the triumphs of a countryman, was it not equally es eu into upon that occasion ? Did he wish t o exc l u d e R o .. they were soliciting alms. Perhaps it was necessary then to unfair to select out of the whole of his speeches the expressions e — a t eo ll o at h°lies from corporati ons w h en t i me E manc ip a ti on Bill take that tone, but shall it be necessary again ? We may be of Lord Lyndhurst that had been quoted ?—( Loud cheers.) (---(llear, and cheers.) In his address to this llouse he less eloquent, we ma y h ave less astuteness, we may have less Theand Learned Gentleman opposite had called on hint fr(ei • r itte ' l t he Pressure which my llon. an d L ear ned Friend wisdom and less erudition, but we brin to the advocacy of our (Sir R. Peel) to defend the conduct of his Noble Friend near I' ° ' l -: ( mnell) had insoosed upon him. lie d ec lared that rights, our hearts and our hands.—(Loud cheers.) Though him. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had contended, and ee Ca holies were to be admitted into the Corporations— we may be deficient in the qualities of public speaking, though justly, that he had a perfect right at any time to make, on pub- Ilr eae r) .' Once in those Corporatisons. Does it stop there? The we may not be masters of diction, in our determination we lie grounds, any reference to the opinions and conduct of his eatb"onpation Bill contains two elauses respecting Roman stand unsurpassed. With thi s p o wer you have to contend, Noble Friend. But when the lion. Gentleman alluded to the that the b eing admitted into Coriesrat;ons, and p rov iding and this you attempt to meat by raising the "No Popery" meeting at Brookes s, he must have known, when he made (si r e eY should be admitted into mice. Were you cry.—(llear. ) The Noble Lord is not one that will do this, the application, that that was a matter in which he (Sir R. w ere e l3 hert Peel) sincere in that declar No doubt you he will repudi a t e it ; l am no t te lli ng him what he is doing, l'ecl), for most evident reasons, was precluded from giving ase iwilli; the Promise you made was to the heart ; _you did it but I hope he will forgive me if I tell him what the him any answer.—(Laughter.) But why was he called on to ev e ° ole, but you did it honestly.—( H ear .) c an you ap- Tories once (Ilear.s The actors and the transactions defend the Noble Lord ? And already was the defence required auo Of the course which the Irish O r a ngemen have lour- to which I allude are nosy matters of history, and in speak- from him? Were not the cases notorious that had led to that da m that day to this—mark it, Englishmen !--rom ing of them, ther e f ore , I ma ke no reference to what his deliberate an ingenious determination? The most palpable odiespite of that Act of Parliament—despite of can be painful to any individual. What I allude to occurred evidence must occur to every matt, friend or opponent of the the Right H o n. Baronet—not a a i ng i e Ca- in 007. lam not speaking of individuals, but of the party. Noble Lord, of the candour, sincerity, and uprightness with no r n t "Meat it —n o t one has been admitted into the Cor- That year found the Whigs in Downing-street, whilst the which he had acted. Who was there that held a prouder po -10" , 15 , : atta ched to the me t ro p o li s o f our country. H e a r .) Tories were in p ossess i on of St. J ames ' s . Th e Wiliest did sition than his Noble Friend ? What man was there snore 4 2 , r :attached o se the 0 f seat ? You do not. Will you then now, no more than propose th at R oman Catholics feignedshl b e admit- endears dto his friends ?—so that whenever his name was men eee pporttolity is "et afforded to you, carry emancipation into ted to the army and navy. Te e T or i es saw pp or t u nity, tioned by those who were connected with him in office, they l'Q Pett C \ A ne . e ".) Will you do it ?--(flear, hear.) Do you and seized it, to work o n th e excited feelings t h e peop l e o f always expressed their deep regret at the separation, and their Was th at the tuhavleg sanctioned part of the Act of Parliament ? England against their adversaries. What course did they take? sorrow at the public loss ? In relinquishing office, he had se ' per • e c 'mPact ? 'Was it t o be a dead letter? Will They raised the cry of 4 , N o p ope e , m r , t h at k ey t h e vere d with the deepest regret the political ties that bound him nut Cheers.) law to he still evaded by the Orangemen o f T or i es wor k e d ; the tocsin of religious warfare was sounded ; to his ancient friends. What in that could have influenced him dished Dublin c h n eers.) You tell me that you fear for the Esta- they a l arme d t h e minds of the pe p ople ; in public assemblies but the highest sense of public duty ?—( Loud cheers.) All 3 1; ' olt p asse r t e l b• 'Why, you had that fear before you when Noble Lords, not greatly distinguished for religion and me- that he ( Sir Robert Peel) had stated on this subject was ants, all th th e Emancipation Bill. You had all the rality, addressed the e dan people in the most exciting language— without communication with his Noble Friend, and he was ger, all the evils, and you saw those evils " Rally round your King," they exclaimed in 1807 i " Rally most happy to perceive that his a ssertions were confirmed by THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 1837 his Noble Friend's former colleagues. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had next attacked him, and had asked him to fulfil the compact be had made with the people of Ireland, in the Roman Catholic Relief Bill. Let them see the exact nature of the claim, and of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's argument. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman contends that we are bound by that Bill to apply the same measure of Municipal Reform to Ireland as to England. Now, in the Roman Catholic Relief Bill he could find no such compact expressed or implied ; he could only find that by that Bill was secured the equal elegibility of Roman Catholics and Protestants to civil rights, and offices of preferment ; and that this compact had been substantively fulfilled who could doubt ? —( Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had reminded him of .a speech he had delivered in that House in 1831, in which he had said that the Roman Catholics should not be any longer exposed to the obloquy of ineligibility to civil employments, and that with respect to Corporations, this Bill would have the effect of admitting Roman Catholics in just and fair propor tion with Protestants. That was the compact ; but there was no compact that the municipal institutions of Ireland should be framed on the same model as those of this country. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had relied on the Roman Ca tholic Relief Bill as a contract, the terms of which they were bound to fulfil. But did he not consider the Act of Union a solemn compact ? The inference that must be drawn from the general context of that Act supposed, implied, and evidently understood, that the protection of equal laws should be extended to Ireland ; but there was no clause on which such a construc tion could be put as to guarantee the existence and reform of municipal institutions. He could find in either Act no such clause, no such guarantee ; in the search which the Hon. Gentleman had made through the Act there was, however, one clause that apparently had not struck his eye. That clause did indeed contain a most explicit guarantee. He begged to call the attention of the Pion. and Learned Gentleman and of the [louse to the sth article of the Act of the Union, which was to the effect that the Churches of England and of Ireland as now existing should be united into one Protestant Episcopal Church, which should be and remain in full force for ever. Now would the lieu. and Learned Gentleman opposite allow him to remind him of his own words ? Would he allow him to ask whether or no it was the uniform declaration of the Roman Catholics, expressed in every petition, in every declaration— did they not lead the minds of the Protestants of England to this conclusion, that the restoration of political equality was perfectly consistent with the maintenance of the Established Church—not only that, but that the maintenance of the Esta blished Church, as the religion of the State, was perfectly con sistent with the rights and privileges they sought? Did not the lion. and Learned Gentleman lead them to believe that, emancipation being granted, all causes of discontent would cease, and that agitation would cease too—that neither the question of tithes, nor the existence of the union, was able powerfully or personally to excite the minds of the people of Ireland, but that at that time the sense of individual injustice and national disgrace combined together to make them seek emancipation ? That privilege had been conferred, and that cause of complaint had been destroyed, and not only had that eligibility been conferred, but the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had that night boasted of the advancement of Roman Catholics to trust, power, and influence.—( Hear. ) Not only then had the sense of injustice been removed, but practical equality now existed. Would the Honourable and Learned Gentleman now allow him to ask if the present condition of the clergy of Ireland were consistent with those professions? Was it consistent with that compact that that religion should no longer exist, but that now the voluntary principle was called for ?—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord had made some reference to the part he took in the Catholic eman cipation. If the Noble Lord did justice to a political oppo nent, he would acknowledge that in 1829, when he came for ward as the proposer of Catholic emancipation, he had the courage to differ from his party and supporters, and he was proud to refer those who were so prodigal of taunts to the cir cumstance of his being again united with that party. He had already had occasion to state the part which he took, in con currence with the Duke of Wellington, and in entire concur.. rence with his Noble Friend Lord Lyndhurst, on the subject of the removal of the Roman Catholic disabilities. On the close of the session of 1828 they each of them, after a separate consideration of the question, came to the same conclusion. At that period, having experienced a renewed defeat on the question of the Catholic claims in the House of Commons, having taken into consideration the various indications of public opinion, and—he would not deny it—the result of the Clare election—seeing the division in the public mind in England and Ireland on that question, and the impossibi lity of forming an united Government, he certainly did come to the conclusion, not that those claims were founded in abstract right, but that, upon the whole, it would be bet ter for the Protestant Establishment in Ireland to concede than to resist them. But he had stated before, and he now repeated, that when he gave his advice, in conformity with that opinion, he gave it under the full impression that he might have been permitted to retire, and support in a private station the removal of the Catholic disabilities.—( Hear.) The reason he remained in office, and as a Minister proposed the removal of those disabilities, was simply this—that it was brought home to his mind by the force of demonstration, that unless he remained in office, and unless he consented to brave the storms of calumny (and it was not from arrogance or pre sumption that he said this, but simply because it was consistent with the truth), the Catholic disabilities would not have been removed.—( Hear.) An erroneous construction had been put of something which had fallen from him, and it had been in ferred that he had been out of of from an unwillingness to redeem the pledge he had given to his Noble Friends with respect to the Catholic question ; and that a difference of opinion had existed between them. Such was not the case ; for, having come to the conclusion of the expediency of conceding the Catholic claims, and having given notice of his intention to bring forward a measure on that subject, he never once thought of shrinking from the performance of that task.—( Hear, hear, hear. ) But the Noble Lord opposite, while admitting that his conduct on that occa sion was free from the suspicion of interested motives, asked why he (Sir R. Peel) did not take the same course with re gard to the Catholic question in 1825 and in 1827 as he had done in 1829 ; and how it happened that at that latter period an entirely new light broke in upon his mind? Now, he ( Sir R. Peel) declared that he for one never professed to entertain in 1829 the sanguine expectations which others en tertained with regard to the effect which would b e p ro d uce d b y the removal of th Catholic disabilities.—( Hear.) He had his misgivings—nay, looking to the state of Ireland, he enter tained great doubts whether the removal of those disabilities would restore peace, and afford full security for the Protestant Establishment in that country. But in 1829 he made up his mind upon a consideration of what ought always to have in fluence over every Statesman, upon a comparison of the evils s n t a d o Te l t o h fe anyw'h o new c o l v i e l c ig am ht e , that the Catholic c l aims ht—he came, he repeated, la t a v o n n ed d r t e h d lN e n, a i t t : i c g tl o o e n fu r o c t s u l u l e cl s x db i i e o a s d n n t i g — o n in g n w ga - o i n t n h yh o b ias o a b t t s h ot t rp h s ai i e en d ti e a or s s n : g s to the conclusion that those claims ought to be conceded, and, that if conceded, the concession ought to be full, frank, and generous. —( Hear.) The Noble Lord opposite asked why he had not taken the same course at an earlier period? The same question might be put to many other public men. Would the Noble Lord have the goodness to ask the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Foreign Department—( Hear, hear) —why he was not an earlier co n v er t th an h e h a d p rove d to Reform ?—( Hear.)—Would the Noble Lord opposite inquire of the head of the present Administration—_( Cheers)—why he, too, had not been an earlier convert toßeform ?—( Hear, hear.) —lf it were blindness in him ( Sir R. Peel) not to foresee in 1825 the necessity of granting or conceding the Catholic Claims, was not Lord Melbourne, then, blind in 1826, when he made the most vigorous opposition to all reform, even to the transfer of the representatives from Penryn to Manchester?— (Cheers. )—Nay, even the leader of the House of Commons could not escape the searchieg question of the Noble Lord his colleague.—(hear, hear. )—Had a prophetic vision of what was now passing appeared to the Noble Lord tome ten years 00, he ( Sir. R. Peel) doubted whether any eul og i um on ld Sarum, or any declamation on the necessity of preserving, Aladdin's lamp, and cherishing the vestal flame, would ever have proceeded from the pen of the Noble leader of that House.—( Hear. )-11e. feared danger to the Protestant Esta blishment. Had he been entirely wrong ? Yet if he had now to act over again the part which lie on that occasion took, he would retract nothing that he had then done. But had he no reason to relinquish all the fears which he might once have entertained of the danger of conceding the Catholic claims ? Did he not find that all the public men who appeared as the advocates of the Roman Catholics—all, without exceptions, made two declarations—first, that they considered the mainte nance of the Established Church essential to time well-being of Ireland, and to the maintenance of the connexion between, the two countries ; and secondly, they gave the most positive assurances that, the disabilities of the Roman Catholics being removed, all fear of danger to the Established Church would be removed ?—(Hear, hear.) Did not he find those decla rations solemnly recorded in the preamble of Mr. Grattan's Act, by which it was proposed to remove the Catholic dis abilities ? The preamble of that Act declared that " The Episcopal Church of England and Ireland, and its doctrine and government, were permanently established, and that it would promote the interest of the same, and strengthen our free Constitution, of which they formed an essential part, if the disqualifications under which the Roman Catholics laboured were removed." Had he not heard Mr. Grattan declare that he thought the removal of the Catholic disquali fications consistent with the preservation of the Protestant Establishment, the maintenance of which he considered es sential to the peace of Ireland ? Did he not find it written in that paper, which that eloquent individual called a testa mentary bequest to his country, that the Protestant Esta blishment should be maintained inviolate ? Did not Mr. Canning, Lord Castlereagh, and every advocate of Catholic relief, attempt to banish all fear with regard to the result of the removal of the disabilities? When he (Sir R. Peel) had at an earlier period than 1829 stated his apprehension that by the passing of a Catholic Bill animosities would not be sub dued, that distractions would still continue, and that the sta bility of the Church would be endangered, how was he then replied to by-Lord Plunket ? That Noble and Learned indi vidual stated " that the Catholics, finding the Prot es t an t reli gion establish e d by th e same law y which their own lives and property were protected, would not attempt to subvert it ; that they would preserve the Protestant Establishment in an un impaired state, and would consider the possessions of the Protestant Clergy as their absolute property."—( Hear.) Such having been the universal language of the advocates of the Roman Catholic claims, was it not rather strange now to hear the declaration that religious freedom could not exist in Ireland until the Protestant Establishment was de stroyed, and that municipal institutions were desirable in order to supply a means of subverting that establishment? —(Hear.) When he was asked to give his vote in favour of the establishment of municipal institutions in Ireland, he was bound to consider whether he should do right in placing in the bands of the enemies of the Church those instruments of offensive warfare.—(Hear, bear,) The lion. Member for Liskeard said it was right to trust the lighting, paving, and watching of the different towns in Ireland to local authorities. Upon this point did any difference of opinion prevail between him and the Hon. Member for Liskeard ?—( H ) Had the Hon. Member read the 9th of George IV. ?—( Hear, hear. ) The Hon. Member for Liskeard was also desirous for the establishment of municipal institutions in Irelaqd, because he said they would inculcate lessons of mutual forbearance and concession. If it could be proved that such was likely to be the result of the creation of corporations in Ireland, his ( Sir R. Peel's) objections to the Ministerial proposition would in a great measure be removed. But when he saw the maintenance of political institutions, which all admitted to be perverted, was insisted on, he then suspected that it was the object of the pro moters of the present proposition to get hold of political power for their own benefit, and to exercise it through the instru mentality of those corrupt bodies, the existence of which was so strenuously advocated, but to which he was opposed, be cause he believed they would continue be be perverted to bad purposes. •' Quo semel est imbuta recent, servabit odorem Testa diu." If the proposed municipal institutions would be beneficial to Ireland, why should they not be extended to all the large towns in England ? The truth was that Manchester and Birming ham, and the boroughs of Southwark, Westminster, Maryee bone, and Finsbury, were satisfied with their present condition, and municipal institutions, such as Ministers proposed to give to Ireland were not considered necessary by the inhabitants of those places. In Ireland he did not think they would be found, as the amiable simplicity of the Hon. Member for Lis keard supposed, conducive to mutual good will, concession, and forbearance. It was much more likely they would be under the control of that species of central government, the General Association, and would constantly interfere with the elective franchise ; and the result would be that the ascendancy of one political party would be effected, while all confidence in the Administration of justice by the local authorities would be des troyed. In support of his argument he might quote a passage from the Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into Muncipal Corporations. They stated that a great number of Corporations had been preserved solely as political engines, and that the towns to which they belonged derived no benefit, but often much injury, from their existence : to maintain the political influence of a family, or the political ascendancy of a party, had been the sole end and object for which the powers intrusted to a great number of these bodies had been exercised. It appeared, then, that the most flagrant abuses had arison from the perversion of the municipal privileges to political purposes, and that the corpo rations not possessed of the Parliamentary franchise had most faithfully performed their duty.—( Hear, hear.) Did the Hon. Member for Bath consider the present position of the Church in Ireland as no proof that a minority might be persecuted ? ( Hear, hear.) ilad the Hon. Gentleman read the history of the French Revolution ? Were not the emigrants, were not the Girondists persecuted—and were they not the minority ? —( Hear, hear.) Did not the Hon. Member for Bath bear in mind that the Government of Spain had confiscated the property of General Alava, and that it had lately sent a General into Andalusia with authority to proclaim that every man who did not join him should be hanged—and was not that persecution ?—( Ilear, hear.) Would it be right, then, to establish the proposed municipal bodies in Ire land, the election of which would, in his opinion, be influenced by pacificators appointed in every parish, and acted upon by Roman Catholic priests ?—( Hear, hear.) Pacification was, indeed, a noble object but he did not think it most likely to follow from a transfer of authority from one section in the state to another, and certainly he had serious doubts whether it was conducive to religious peace, above all, that the transfer should be from a minority to a majority. He had been tauntingly reminded of the minority in which he was in that House, but what was his minority compared to the overwhelming importance of the' question before them ? The Noble Lord had asked him, and with considerable anxiety too, which was not to be wondered at, as the Noble Lord would soon have to ask the question of himself, what his intentions or designs were under the formidable circumstances which Ireland presented. Yes, the Noble Lord would have to ask himsel that puzzling question, when, with these municipal corpora tions in the foreground, he peered over the battlements of the Church—(Cheers,)—alich he and his colleagues were ashamed to abandon and afraid to defend. ( Loud and continued cheering.) They pointed to thefAssociation, and the) asked him how he proposed to meet the power which was in open resistance to the Church, and which medi tated a violence as, open ? Who had mad e th e A ssoc i at i on powerful—not he, but they. Now, he would say, that the existence of that Association was fraught with importance to the Church, for that Association had determined on its de struction, had resolved that in Ireland peace should not ensue until that destruction was complete.—( Hear.) They were persons fond of secret determinations as to the benefits they might receive ; they never could be satisfied with what they got ; they were always asking for more, and each new boon was an instalment only, a fraction of some greater claim. This was the way they had received the appropriation clause be stowed on them by that House, and this was the way in which every thing else would be received. The Prime Minister had declared that he disapproved of the Association, and thought it ought to be discouraged--that was the declaration of a gen tleman, but the mode of discouragement was a singular one. To discourage the Association they gave office to a gentleman who had tried the 'prentice-hand in that Association—be cause he had graduated in the normal schools of agitation, they thought him fit to become a Professor in Dublin Castle—( Cheering)—they had actually created a vacancy for him. If that were their mode of discouraging, to hint it appeared anything but an efficacious one. They might think to limit the evils by the plan they were pursuing, but their turn would come next, their lukewarmness would fail them. He knew that it was difficult, and ungracious, perhaps, for a Government to exert it power to restrain, but it should not lend its power to incite or goad on those who were, or might become, disaffected ; if it were so lent, then it was a perversion of power, and became a formidable encou ragement. He did complain of such conduct as unjust, un generous, and impolitic; it was unjust to discourage one spe cies of Association merely, and from another to take an, impor tent functionary, whose duties as a lawyer of the Crown ought to be uninfluenced by the spirit of any Association; it was un generous to avail themselves of the loyalty of Orangemen, to cajole them with praises of their love for their Sovereign and deference to his commands, to confess that the law could not reach them, and to obtain their ends from their good-will, and then to turn round on them, and call them a miserable monopolising minority—( Loud cheers)—it was impolitic, for if a Government did not interfere to restrain, it at least should not interpose to encourage. When did the principle of succes sive concessions, of constant compliances, cf a nervous horror of refusals, ever succeed ? Never ; it was revolting to common sense to suppose that it would. Such a system, if pursued in private life, would be most injurious to society ; in official life it was much worse, much more pernicious. Persons in official life should recollect how great the interests were committed to them, and they should never interpose their authority—no matter what the direction of its exercise—to encourage, or to do acts tending to encourage, any party or political sect what ever.—( Loud cheering for some time.) Mr. O'CONNELL rose, and we regretted to observe ap peared still to be labouring under great indisposition. He said he wished it were in his power to enter fully into the subject, but the clock reminded him of the inexpediency of doing so. He rose to bring back in the recollection of the House who the claimants were in this case. The claimants, then, were the Irish people, and they required equality of civil rights. The Irish people were the claimants before a Legis lature which was not Irish, and they asked only for that which an Irish Legislature would concede to them. :He stood there a repealer ; he stood there us one convinced that the Union should be repealed. He was, therefore, persuaded that the period had not arrived, and he feared it never would arrive, when a British legislature would be prepared to do perfect justice to Ireland. Everything he had heard that night and everything which he had witnessed, convinced hint the more strongly that there was not the disposition on the part of a great portion of that House, nor in another place, as it was termed, to do justice to Ireland. And yet he saw sufficient to warrant him in not abandoning the hope that the Irish people would be able to obtain justice for them selves. But he should not be doing justice to those who op posed this measure if he did not caution them against pur suing that conduct which might induce the Irish people to look to constitutional means for the restoration of their own Parliament. He would bring the attention of the House to the history of the connection between the two countries, quot ing a few dates, and abbreviating the facts as much as pos sible. He would call attention to the repeated times that the people of Ireland at various periods had appealed for equality of laws with England. It was a fact almitted that there was no country in the world which had suffered so much from another as Ireland had from this. This country had had do minion in Ireland for a period of six hundred years, and they were still to be deceived by professions and treachery • and now at the end of six hundred years the British Legislature were as little disposed to do justice as if they were beginning their work for the first time. The Irish people had always claimed British institutions. From the very first period of the disastrous connection between the two countries to the present day, their prayer had been for British institutions. Let them give dates. In 1172, in the reign of King Henry 11., that claim had been mode. In 1200, in the reign of John, that humble petition was repeated ; and in the reign of Edward 111., in 1336, the question was taken into solemn consideration. This occurred 500 years since; and the Irish people were again to be deceived in 1837, though the King was disposed to allow them constitutional local government. But the great lords declared it to be their interest that municipal institutions on the principle of those in England should not be created. To the petitions and demands of the Irish people the Govern ment in England had persevered in their refusal to do justice. The excuses made were, to be sure, various. At one time the Irish were too numerous, and the British were too few ; at another period the English were' too powerful, and the Irish too few in number, and therefore of course it was safe to re fuse their demands ; at another period it was said that the Irish people were hostile to the Government, and therefore they must be treated as enemies ; at another time it was said they were friendless, and therefore it was unnecessary to do anything. And thus the excuses which had been made changed, and thus they had varied up to the present day. But the excuse which Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side now gave was of far greater value, though that excuse had been given before. In the anxiety to find out a mode of refusal it had varied from day to Last year they were told that if they granted these Corpora: tions they would only become normal schools of agitation ; and on the present occasion they were refused, because it was said the agitation caused thereby would be endless. But they had put their refusal on another footing—namely, that of de cided bigotry on the part of the Roman Catholics. The Right H o n. Bart. the Member for Cumberland ( Sir James Graham) had read what he ( Mr. O'Connell) hoped was a slanderous, as it was a vicious, description of the second order of clergy in Spain i 11114 lie bad natured Co insinuate the game tbina as against the clergy of Ireland. " You have raised the No Popery flag," said the Hon. and Learned Member. " and un der it you think to fight your way into office." Yes ; I tell you the Right Hon. Member for Cumberland did not (I's ' guise it. He gave this excuse, to be sure, that if .ou granted Municipal Reform to Ireland you would endanger the Protestant Church.—(Hear, hear.) What ! does fin: Protestant Church depend upon doing injustice to Ireland ? Is this your recommendation of Protestantism? In the first place, then, the Protestant Church cannot exist unless you tax those who have no concern in it for its support; and next, unless you deprive the people of the same rights as you your selves enjoy. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman proceeded to say, that he rose for the purpose of distinctly stating that the people of Ireland, though they came forward as petitioners for that relief which had been given to England anti Seetbled —although they came forward with a respectful demearre- to ask this justice—he was by no means prepared to . say that their fate and fo r t unes d epen d e d upon t h e British Legislature. They were anxious to show that that Legislature was cap-tble of giving equal laws with the people of England and Scot land. But they knew full well that seven millions of men never yet were outraged with impunity unless the fault was their own. The overpowering. sentiment on his own mind was the impossibility of getting equal laws from a British Parliament, which they would do if the Irish had their own Parliament. It was said that the Union was not founded on an equality of rights. If it had not been so founded it was a fraud on the one country and an act of tyranny on the other. He desired to put upon record his conviction of the necessity of looking to other means for redress. Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose to address tile House, amidst great confusion, and loud cries of " Divide 1" The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) had accused the Govern ment of cajoling the Orange Societies in Ireland—of in ducing them to abandon their Association, and afterwards allowing similar societies to be raised. He ( Lord John Rus - sell) denied this charge. No intention whatever had been entertained of cajoling or deceiving any one upon the sub ject. But those Orange Societies were exclusive in their character they were formed of persons who were exclusively of one religion. They were secret in their character and conduct. It was on that ground that he had asked them to dissolve, and it was on that ground that they yielded, saying only that all other secret societies should be dealt with i the same way.—(Cries of " Bear hear, hear.") Whatever might have been the grounds of the dissolution of these so cieties, he must own he could not see any resemblance whatever between the Orange Lodges and the General Asso ciation of Ireland. The latter might be considered dangerous or objeCtionable in different ways; but it did not resemble those secret societies to which allusion had been made. But Hon. Gentlemen had accused him of bringing into this de bate a question with respect to the Government of Ireland. On a former occasion, when the motion for the introduction of the Bill now under consideration was not likely to lead to a discussion, he did think it right and fitting to place before the House the question between his Majesty's Government and the Earl of Mulgrave, as Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. With regard to Orange Societies, he had never entered into that topic under the impression that he must of necessity be de barred from undertaking the defence of Lord Mulgrave ; nor would be have spoken one word in the least disparagement of these societies but that the heaviest possible charges had been made. Having said those few words as to the charge of the Right Honourable Gentleman, he would beg to call the attention of the House to the question then before them,. and this question, as his Noble Friend had put it, was not se question applying to the Right Honourable Gentleman per sonally ; it was not the question of appealing to the great, body of the Members of that House who had fixed on a certaiee course of conduct for that night ; but it was a - question for the, Parliament of Great Britain as to what in future years shouk I be their course with regard to legislating for Ireland. It sae is a question, whatever party might be in power, to decide wh at should be their rule and guide, and to discriminate what cow le it would be wise to pursue for the promotion of the interests . of seven millions of their fellow subjects who were united to us, and were ready to apply themselves, a s h e b e li eve d, as cordially in the support of this great empire as any of the great body of inhabitants of England or Scotland.—(Hear, heana hear.) It did then become a great question to say who-. ther they should adopt the proposition before them ; sh e , only proposition being utterly to extinguish and abolisht Corporations in Ireland, though at that time of night how should not attempt to go over the arguments which had beers.. urged on this matter.-41Iere the Noble Lord was interrupted by cries of " Divide !" and confusion on the floor.] He must be allowed in a great question of this kind to make some observations.--( Hear, hear.) He would not go over those arguments which had been so admirably put by the Honour able Member for Liskcard with respect to corporations in. general, because nothing could be more complete than then proof he had given the House that corporations tended to , invigorate those excellencies of a free character on which, e) ,O , Government of all free countries must depend. Thc . , 2 r , u. ment of the H on . M em b er f or , Li s k ear d h a d not beese it had not been denied. But he must remark on 0,003 Lion made upon that speech by his Noble Friend ti re m em b er for North Lancashire (Lord Stanley), who, • misieterpretin g the purport of that speech, stated that the Hon, Member for Liskeard had stated that the great recommen d at i on for institu ing corporations was, that they might be m a d e t h e engie f or destroying the Church Establishm en t i n Ireland. T '.;ow, hi s argument was, that where, by th e es t a bli s h ment of corpora.. tions, they created a general interest in loePa matters, there the power and influence of priests and demagogues would be overwhelmed ; but the Noble Lord had understood the argument in an opposite sense.—(licar, hear. )._The Right lion. Gentleman said (and certainly he did rot agree with him), that in some states of society tle e „ eerpc ,„ ''.. rations might be good. I n a very refined gate they were not so fitting, whilst und er other circuits'stances th e y were useful. But let him ( Lord John Ru"...sell) put to the House the question whether in respect to adoption of corporation s in England the argument was good? And yet, according to the Right Honourable Ger.ileman's argument, in a state of civilization corporations were not productive of good. And why, he would ask, at one moment should it be main tained that corporations could not be adopted under a highly civilised condition, and in the next breath tell them that Ireland was not so civilised as to allow them to give her mu nicipal institutions ? But he was told, as an answer to every plea that had been urged that the Honourable and Learned Member for Kilkenny had made certain predictions, and had said that these corporations must be followed up by certain effects. Why, Honourable Gentlemen opposite took these predictions as certain consequences. The Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had said that no one but violent partisans would be chosen to the town councils. It seemed somewhat extraordinary that when the Right Honour able Gentleman had to state the effects which this measurer. might have on Ireland, he should take the sayings of the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny as perfect oracles. Hon. Gentlemen opposite said they could not bear the influence of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny; they adjured this influence; but here was what he said, and what he said was infallible and must come to pass. Now he would refer, on this occasion, to what had been alleged by the Hon. Member for Cavan. The lion. Member for Cavan said his opinion was that at first par ties in these Corporations would be likely to use their power for political or party purposes, but when the offices were vested in merchants, and tradesmen of repute, they would soon lose that heat which would first be evinced, and men of charac ter, and wealth, and leisure, would be the persons chosen in these Corporations. That was his (Lord John Russell's) belief, and he begged on this occasion to adopt the authority of the lion. Member for Cavan, and he could only say he thought it so good an argument for the institution of these Corporations that he much regretted he had not the benefit oe his vote. But it was said, and it was urged, indeed, as a conclusive argument on this subject, that although these Cor porations might in themselves be fitting, they would be. dan gerous to the Church of Ireland. He would not deny that the Church of Ireland, in the position in which she stood, might be placed in danger by many circumstances ; and he knew not that they could save that Church from all dangers by depriving the Roman Catholics of their political :end civil rights. But he would readily do what he supposed those who opposed this measure were not prepared to do. He did not suppose that they meant to repeal the Emancipation Act. Then in a country where there were more than six millions of a different religion, and not more than one million were Protestants, and the six millions of Roman Catholics were daily increasing in power, it could not be said that the Church could remain free from all danger.—( Hear.) They were not to look to a supposed contingent danger —and he could see no danger in receiving these new Corporations. It was ten times a more dangerous proceeding to tell the people of Ireland, " You cannot have Corporations, because the Protestant Church is there established." If they did this, they would indeed most unquestionably increase the danger to. the Church, whilst they would place it in an odious position.. It was a late hour of the night, but he could not refrain from quoting some observations made by Mr. Burke upon this subject, because the question then under their consideration was not very different from that on which Mr. - Burke spoke.. Mr. Burke said, " You have an Ecclesiastical Establishment which, though the religion of the Prince aed of the first clay of the landed proprietors, is not the religion of the majew part of the inhabitants, and consequently does not anss.v er any one purpose of a religious establishment. This is nest a state of things which any one iu his senses can call perfectly happy. But it is the state of Ireland, and has beret the state of Ireland for upwards of two hundred years. "—( C . /seers.) Mr. Burke then said, " To-day the question is, ate we to make the best of a situation which we cannot wholly, salter ? shall the condition of a body of the people be alienated front a burden to which they arc now subject--the bterdea of living under and paying for two religious establishneents, from one of which they do not receive any religious instruction or con solation ; or are we to aggravate their condit-ion by stepping out of our way to cut off three milliens!of people from all connexion with popular representation? Such was the view which Mr. Burke took of a question '.cry similar to that at present un der the consideration of the House. Mr. Burke's argument was, do not areer e evate the burdens of the great majority of the. Irish people—do not aggravate in the eyes of the people of Ireland the burden of having to support a'a estab liehreent to which they do not belong, and from wlisich they derive no benefit; rather try to elevate it, and shows them that if the Church Establishment cannot be altered, at; least that they were not inferior in other respects.—(Chcere.) e With these observations,- continued the Noble Lord, ", I have now only to beg the attention of the House Pe the 'real question before it. It is not a question of degree —n e e a question of whether any part or parcel of this rneseure shall Le concede d —but a question of whether you. wit now agree to aboli; 4h entirely Municipal Corporations in Ireland ; and whether :by so doing you will affix upon the people of Ireland - the stirwia of being unfit to enjoy our free institutions ; and whe Abet' you will look for the suture to 'nothing but force. to er table you to conduct the Government of that country ?"—(' c on timued cheerinK.) Mr, 11, GRATTAN .r9§9 and ding cries :.!