The Sun. — London, England, 1812-12-02 00:00:00

HOUSE OF LORDS, TUESDAY, DECEMBER 1, - Lord nous took the oaths and his seat. VICE-CHANCELLOR'S BILL. HOUSE OF COMMONS, TUESDAY, DEC. 1. THE CAPTUttE OF JAVA • The SITAK"ER took the Chair at four o'clock. Ire then acquainted 'the House that he had re ceived. a letter from Admiral Stop ford, acknow ledging the receipt of that from the Speaker, of January last, communicating .the Thanks voted by the douse of Commons to him, and his Officers abd Men employed in the reduction of Java,. in the Exped Hort under. Sir sanmel Auchmuty. The Spea7ier . read this letter, which was dated in A ug ust, and expressed the gall a nt, officer's high senstt.i)fihe honou r conferred upon him, and stat ed, that he had made the favourable sentiments of the 1 - 1-)nse• known' to the officers and men under his command. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. The Lord Chancellor took his seat on the Woolsack about two o'clock,, and a number of Peers atterideel• in their Court dresses ; those of Naval and-Military profess-ion§: wore their respee-- tire uniforms. The Marquis of 1-lEivrFoßn (as Lord Ctramber lain)-acquainted the. House with the Prince Re gent's pleasure to receive their Lordships' Address 'this (lay, at three o'clock. , :•? • CATHOLIC QUESTION. 11i4 Royal Highness the Duke of GLOUCESTER . presented a Petition from the University of Cam bridge against the Roinan Catholic Claims, ob ,serving, that the high situation he had the honour to hold in . that University induced him to present the Petition-of . that. most learned and respectable body. .At- the same. time he must for himself say, he should 'accompany that presentation with no avowal of his sentiments either in favour or against the prayer of the Petition ; and wished it to be understood; that in . thuS bringing it fOrward, his sanction to its prayer was not to be The Petition this. then read by the Clerk. to the above effect, 'and was, on his Highness's motion, ordered to lie on the table. The Earl of HARDW'ICKE took the *opportunity to make a few observations on the occasion. He more p Irtieularly referred to the circumstance of the Petition presented by the Royal Duke, and observed, that in all affairs relating to ,the inte -rests or the particular _concerns of the learned and respectable Body in , question, he thought the resident Members *ere the best judges, and that their sentiments on such occasions should prepon derate, in preference of those of non-residents:— But the case to which the Petition referred, was of a very different nature ; it was ,ail important national question, and to be decided, not with reference to religious consideratiOns, but on grounds of state policy. With regard to the Pe , tition just presented to their Lordships, with re . Serence to the great national importance of the subject, and the particular circumstances. with :which its carrying through was attended, as suffi cidnt notice was by no menus given, with respect to the non-resident Members, (and he bad him self but a very short time previous heard of the intention) be could not but regard it as an unfair and improper proceeding. In the discussions of the important topic to •tvhich it referred, too great stress, he thought, was laid upon the supposed :power' of the rope ; in . ilhistration of which his Lordship referred to some recent proceedings at a meeting of the Irish Catholic Prelates; in which the difficulty, or rather, in - his present situation, the impracticability, of communicating with the Spiritual Head .of 610: Church, was expressly ad verted to; and•he repeated, that it was on grounds of political expedienCe•dione that great national questions ought to be decided. Lord GRERVILLE said, that he also had a pe tition to present from the learned and respecta-' ble Body, in which he had the honour to hold so high a situation (the University of OXford), of a similar nature and, effect with that pre sented by the Illustrious Duke. Like that Royal personage, he too presented the document, mere ly as an official organ ; and , th oug h h e was of ficially, 'as the form required, included among the petitioners, the sentiments he Was known to en tertain, and which he should alWays declare, upon this great national question, were decidedly ad verse to the object and prayer of the petition. With his Noble Frit nd who. spoke last, he thought the subject should be considered, and-the question . decided, on views of great national policy, and 'with reference, not only to the great object of uniting all sects and descriptions of the King's subjects, in the support, and defence of the Con stitution, and independence of the country, and for carrying it ,safely through the perilous conflict -in whicii we were engaged ; but even for the pur pose of averting those very evils whieh.the -Peti tioners wished to avoid. His Lordship having moved that the petition be read, it was accord ingly read by the Clerk, and ordered to lie on the table. Lord REDESDALE presented a Bill, similar to that brought in by him last SesSion (which from' the lateness of the period ,was lost in the Com mons), fOr providing assistance to the Lord Chan cellor in the discharges of his multiplied and in creasing forensic duties; and for enabling him to devote a greater - pOrticm of time to the dispatch of ,the judicial business of their Lordships' House, . as' writs of error and appeals. His Lordship short ly observed upon the necessity of applying some remedy to the greatest evil of. rhich the country had to complain, namely, the:great injury suffer ed by 7inclividuals in the unavoidable procrastina tion bf the decisions upon . their cases for such an almost incredible length of time. The Bill was forthwith read a first time, and. ordered to be printed. . - The .Lail of LIVERPOOL renewed his notice of a. motion for the Thanks of the Houge to the Mar quis ofVellington, on Thursday next; to which day their Lordships adjourned ; andthen proceed ed with their Address to the nince Regent at Carlton House, rt TITIONS AGAINST x-i . cA'rfiattc Sir WILLIAM SCOTT presented a Petitiop from the Masters, Scholars, &c. of du! Univosity of Oxford, praying that the House would luainsaiii the. Protestant Constitution of the Country, .and resist the demands made upon it in favour of what is called Catholic Emancipation. It 'ex:, pressed the conviction of the Petitioners, that if the claims made in behalf of the Cathcilics were conceded, the consequeuce of thus breaking down the guards•and barriers of the Constitution would' in the end prove - the destruction of that under which the, nation had so long been prosperous ; happy, and elevated. It was read by the Clerk,-and ordered to lie on . the table. ' ' A similar Petition was afterwards presented by Mr. Atkins Wright,:from the Mayor and Corpora tion of Oxford'; which, after a 'few words from 'r. Lockhart, was o rd er ed t o li e on the table. Sir WM. CUIt . TIS presented another Petition, of the nne nature, from the Clergy of London, un der the denomination of Shin College, ich was read and laid on the•table "with the preceding. PRIVATE BUSINESS, Lord tASTLEREAGH rose to call the attention of the House to the arrangements .necessary to be millade; with regard to private busiliess. He was - desirous.in this respect of folloWing the example of the last Session, Which had proved to be so advantageous to the dispatch ofthiS growing mass. of matter, and concluded by moving the following Resolutions, r which were severally put from the Chair, and agreed to " That no Petition on priVate business siiali !_,e• received after Friday, the 18th of the current month,of December; . " That no Private BM be read a first time after 'Monday -the Bth day of March neat ; ' "That no Report on a Private Bill be received by the House after Monday, the 10t1r of May.!' These Resolutions were ordered to be printed. ELECTION PETITIONS, Lord CASTLEREAGH then rose. to propose mak ing arrangements with respect to the ballot for Committees to try the merits of Conte!ge'd Elec tions. He stated that he (lid not conceive it could either suit the convenience of the House, or prove beneficial to the parties concerned, were, they to. take up the consideration of these subjects during the, short period of their sitting before .the holidays; But it would be desirable to take up the subject as soon after their subsequent ing as possible. In the view he at present took of the subject, he should have to propose that the adjournment should' extend to the first Tuesday in February ; and he thought the following Tuesday would be 4 proper time to fix tot. proceeding to ballot for the first Committee on an Election-Pe tition. In 'selecting the first, they would, of course, proceed according to the usageS of the House. _ . The SPEAKER obser'.-ed, that by the usages of the House, the Noble Lord must mean that they were to begin•with the cases in which no returns had been made, as their first class—with the.cases in .which there had been double returns, as their second class—with the cases iir which there had been returns of the sane indii'idual for two or inure places, as their third class- , -and, lastly ; with the cases in whichthe returns were complained of as undue and improper. He had consulted the returas.made, and found there were none in the two former cases, and therefore the House might exercise their judgment in proceeding with the latter. • The question that the House should not take any of these Petitions into consideration before the Holidays, was then put and carried. The SPEAKER said, if there were any Petitions complaining of undue Elections, this was the time to present them. A Petition was forthwith' presented against the return of Messrs. Robson and Gurney, for Shaftes bury L the Petitioners were, Messrs. Weatherall and Thellusson, the rejected Candidates ; and Tuesday, the 9th of February, was appointed for balloting for a Committee to try the merits of the same. REGULATIONS RESPECTING ORDERS OF THE DAY AND NOTICD4. Lord CASTLEREAGH next called the attention of the Hotise to this subjeet, - and proposed a regula tion, the same as that agreed to last Session ; which had been faund so admirably to promote and expedite the dispatch of public business, namely, that on MondayS and Fridays the Orders of the Day should take precedence of the Notices in,their discussions, and the'Noble Lord concluded 'by moving a IkeSOlUt lon to that effect. • Cu its being put from the Chair, Mr. Wurrn READ rose; not to repeat the argu ments he had on former :occasions used against this practice, or to take the sense of the House upon the subject, but to enter his protest against it, as tending to throw much power and influence in that House into the hands of the Ministers of the Crown, whoever they might lie, Members who had a recollection of their ancient usages must look on this innovatiOn With' a jealous eye; for himself, he put in a claim to his right, as hold ing a seat in that House, not onlyto bring forward the subject of any notice on these days, before the Orders of the Day, but also to originate, as far as his courtesy did not prevent him, any Motion he thought fit, without a notice at Lord MILTO N also objected to the regulation, as a novel practice, contrary to the ,oldsusage of Par• liament, and asserted the right of Members to disregard it. He contended that it cramped,. in stead of facilitating public business. The Resolution was then put and carried. THE GERMAN LEGION. Lord FOLKESTON E gave notice that he would on Friday next submit a motion to the House, on the subject of an order issued from the }Torse Guards, on thel ith of August last, relative to the Officers of the German Legion, Mr. KENaicK gave notice that at ',an early pe riod, he would move for leave to bring in a Bill similar to that of last Session, with respect tb In closures. Mr. WHARTON moved the re-appointment of the usual Committees : the motion agreed to, and the Committees nominated, Mr. JACOB' gave notice that he would take an early opportunity to move for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal the 13th and 14th of Charles 11. re lative to.the obtainment of Parochial Settlements, by a Rental of 101. per annum. lit.Mrat A'ibttrA Lord CLIVE preiented himself at.the Bar of the house with the Report on the Address, and an the notion that the same should be now rmeived, •Mr. CREEV E Y objected to the motion, On the ground that sufficient time had not been allowed for Gentlemen to make up their minds on the many important points embra ce d i n t h e S pe e c h from thesTbrona, and re-echoed by this Address. In former times the Reports on A.thireSSCi were not pressed on Parliament for five, six, or eight d.iys after the Speech was delivered, and surely if 'such was the practice heretofore, it was the more necessary to allow them time now, when the 'matter before them was not only more important, but infinitely more various. He also objected to it on account of the omissions in the Speed', which he conceived to be of more importance than the subjects mentioned.. He alluded principally .to what regarded the supplies; in which part •the Prince Regent had been advised to say only that lie relied on the House for support, to enable him to carry on the war in the Peninsula, but not to mention one syllable of the state of the revenue, or of the pressure on our manufactures, though surely there was eifough in both these,points to, merit his attention, and the attention of Parlia-' meut. He would not go through all the King's Speedos, that had eves' been delivered during the period of war, to stew that it Wes an '--unprecedented ,omission, and that it was Uitary, on asking for supplies, to notice the state of the revenue, but' content himself with pniving this fact from the speeches delivered in 1794, and in 1804, which he called on the Clerk to read. (The passages touching on this part of the sub ject were read accordingly.) Mr. Creevey re sumed; considering all these circumstances, did Ministers mean to say they could not state the condition of the'revenue on account of our re sources having failed—or . had, they withheld en tirely from the knowledge of the Prince Regent the distress in which our manufacturers were plunged ? It , would be better for the House to inquire into these things than say at once they would vote supplies. There was another circum stance which should dictate great caution to them as to giving pledges to support the. present enor mous scale of expenditUre of the country. the resolution on Finance, moved by the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Viinsittart), and by another Right Hon. Gentleman, not now among them (Mr. Tierney) last Session, though they differed in some points, yet the result of both was the same, namely, that though the Sinking Fund continued to perform its operation, yet that the excessive extent of the annual loan was so great as to countervail its effects, and the natural con sequence was the sinking of the national funds. All parties agreed that this could not, under the present system of loan s be prevented. But the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had, it scented, a nostrum for this, ; which, if he understood it aright, was to add to the hurthens and privations already en dured by a tax on capital. He Was not sure that this was the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan, but sure he was thaf,they could not go on t o borroasthe • loan for the year in the usual way. Why ; he asked, was not this topic alluded to and_ explained in the. Speech ; that would have been moredis erect than to ask him thus blindly to vote for xn Address by which supplies were promised. :He knew that the expenditure of last year was 101,000,0001. ; he knew that the National Debt had increased, and would increase four or five -millions yearly; he knew that this increase could only be met by a paper currency, which was de preciated, and would be much further ;depre ciated ; .tie knew that by.this depreciation every annuitant in this kingdom professing as we did, good fa:fli and justice, had been robbed of one third of their incomes 'by the State, and not to benefit the State, but to go in bonuses to the Bank of England. This was the effect of making Bank notes a legal tender; and the robbery must go still further, if the expenditure of the year was further extended, till it ended in the total destruction of the stock-holders by some violent convulsion tt? the national credit. It was to avoid this catastrophe that he now refused to give the pledge demanded of him. As for these Ad dresses, he considered them as mere Parliamen tary farce and parade; and it was impossible to expect, when they were called on to vote them in this hurried way; that there could be unanimity on the question. Under these circumstances, he should conclude by moving, that instead of the word " now" the' report should be received on " this day week." - Mr. FREEMANTLE thought some notice ought to be taken 'of our finances, and that the re sources ought to he compared with.the circum stances of the country. He could not see that our situation, either externally or internally, had been ataill improved since the close of the last Session of Parliament. On the contrary, he could discover nothing bat a failing off' in our prospects. The allianCe of RusSia, he admitted,- was a feature of importance in politics, but the war with America was •to be set against it ; and this done, our loss was greater than our gain.-- With all the consideration he could give the_ sub ject, he could discover no improvement in our si tuation: Much as he valued the glorious victory of Salamanca, and the noble exertions made by our heroes in the Peninsula in the course of the campaign, he despaired of the ultimate success of the Spanish 'came, as the Spaniards .themselves did not make the exertions we had a right to ex pect from them. With regard to Russia, he felt that its conduct was not only that which muSthe the most gratifying to this country, but the most honourable to themselves. The Russians"' b a d completely f ru st ra t e d the designs' of BuOna parte, and preserved their independence. In this point of view he thought our situation was ini prOved; but he was not: . satiSfied with what had been said by the Noble Lord respecting Sweden. He was dissatisfied with the'Government for not having answered the American Declaration 'Of War. He wished •to guard against pledging, himself to the details of the matter contained in the Speech.. He sboUld tak e eVerY„oPpOrtn . pity of expressing his sentiments; when'therwere gone into. Mr. ROBINSON regarded it as extraordinary_ that it should ue contended that our situation had not improirad since the, close of the last Session of Tbd war in tb bd 6 treated as if the campaign had commeneed tyitli the battle of Balainanta. This was not ta.kiijg right view of the subject; it ought to be retheln . 7 hered that it commenced With the siege Of Ciudad Rodrigo ; and this borne in mind, it would be found, heyond;all doubt, that our prospects bad exceedingly improved, and were infinitely better than at the beginning of the campaign, When the campaign - opened, theTtench were its pos' session of the two frontier fortresses, owhicti it was necessary they should possess befofe they -in vaded Portugal. These it was necessary to take; to enable Lord Wellington td advance : they had been taken, and be had advanced into Spain with out any apprehension for his retreat . ; and he had been enabled to possess himself pf Salamanca; which was a place of great importance, as it commanded thelopen country of Castile. The bat" tie of Salamanca bad not annihilated the a rmy' opposed to the victors : such a resilt from a bats tle was that which very rarely occurred, and that which was not to be expected. , It had, perhaps) deprived it of half its strength, and forced, what remained of the army ofMaimont to take up $ position behind. th e Douro; Lord Wellington had then advanced upon Madrid, arid the effect of this movement, asahe had clearlfforeseen, had corn' palled the enemy to raise the siege of Cadiz. The fact of the French having been two years amt A half before it proved to demonstration, that these, Cadiz was considered the greatest iral portance to the subjugation of Spain. Indeed, be believed, instructions had been given by Buona parte to continue the siege, at almost all possible. risks, anti certainly had r.o doubt thought it a great importance ; more Occasions than one hal occurred, when by raising it, he might have b e en enabled to do something of consequence in ano ther quarter. The effectathen, of Lord Welling ton's movement on Madrid had been to 'can-se the siege of Cadiz to be raised, and to liberate the whole of the Southern • provinces of Spairr. Ma dridhad since been given up, but heqnestioned if Madrid, in a. military point ,of view, was as portant as many other places in Spaiu----Lord had failed before Burgos, but the consequena.,es of that failure were not what the fears-of some made them appear. The army which had follrisa ed Lord Welljngton, and Wbiah if had been said would annoy and do he knew not what, to the -ar my•of the allies, - already began; he believed, tv feel the inconveniences of keeping together its: such force. This had caused Caffarelli to -retreat to !Burgos ; and he was. not certain that he would not retire to Victoria. This was d proof that that army, of wbichso much bad ber22 said, did not feel itself strong enough to advance, and push Lord 'Wellington to those extreinitlea which had been apprehended, or to deprive him of the advantages which his victories bad obtained- He did not take upon himself to prophesy either good or evil. The one_ be might not be_ itii?" tified in doing. and under-1)6 circumstances woultt he wish to do the other. - What he wished to .5. , 1 was, that advantages had' been gai ne d s i nce t he commencement of .the campaign, of /I nattme great and decisive, and the reverses which we hail experienced Wart morelikely to be porarytluta otherwise. With respect to the American war, be would say that Government had not been re-: miss in directing hostilities, though they hQ.ifeela anxious not to close - the prospect of negotiating an amicable - irrangement. Orders had beea promptly given to bring in American vessels ;and if War bad not been commenced with till that iacti vity and force which some might consider ckaita ble, it ought to be remembered, that occupied a 5 we were at present, it was impossible that an over whelming force could at once be directed to every point. Mr. P.O2E wished to -reply to what had' I,4lTeri from an Honourable Gentleman opposite, .on subject on which great misrepresentation hal hone abroad. It had been understood .that his Right Honourable Friend, the Chancellor of 1].4 Exchequer, had it in contemplation to propose A tax upon capital. This, he wished now to state, to prevent further misconception, was not true- Stiehl:had never been-his intention!; and be (Mr.: It.) would say, that to derive benefrt from such measure was impracticable and impossible. ..tV Right Reverend Prelate had some years ago pub--" lished a pamphlet in favokir of a tax upon 6044 7 He (Mr. R.) had, on that occasion, addre7pwd tb.at - Right Reverend, to skew that it was impractica ble, and exerted himself at that time to- pro , ve, what he still believed, that, putling policy. out .of the question, such a measure could not be resorted to. Mr. S. Wown.rty, referring to what bad been said in favour of attempting to ,negociate a peace, gave it as his opinion, that whenever a peace was' concluded, it nmst be the work of the Govermnent of the country. If tbcy were driven to attempt' to negociate b 7 a resolution from the I-lOnse of Commons; or 'ay the clamours of the : feo'ple, the honour and - independence .of -the country wonid be endangered. tie, however, begged, while tic said this, to 'Warn the Govern:l:lent against shut ting their. eyes to the distresses of the veople for heavy inileed would be their responsibility if - theyttleglected to avail themselves of any favtatra bile opportunity that may occpr for prbffering to France. Lord 'tilt:TON thought the Governments of Ear:- land and America were less disposed to,peace that . might be irished: .lie believed there was as much irvitatiOn:ron the part of the Government on one side, aa. on that on the other side of the Atlantic.. Whatever might 'be the feelings •,or the .twO GO- . ierntnents, he was confident the people of bOtli countries were anxious-10 - be at peace, arid he hoped the war would not be tnnecessiirily'prOlOng ed, by , the feelings of irritation t 9 w hi c h he Ead.al luded, in the Governments of &this - country - and Ame i ria a.. ‘. Mr.. STEPITEV contended, that the charg&Of ritation 'against the PovernMent of this country was. unmerited. He thought knitters had beer/ wrqng in not replying to the Manifesto published by America. He differid from those*WhO thought such a step would tend to protract hostility: .In his opinion it would ben step to conciliation, to' refute, in.the face-of .the world, the elargeS pre ferx.ed. against .the countryThy-America. He re peated, that nothing of irritation was justly to be imputed to England. He had employed his tongue and his pen ou the subject of the differs