The Sun. — London, England, 1812-01-17 00:00:00

he had moved for the estimated charges on the Civil List, as they were laid before the House in 1804, together with the aelnal charges of each subsequent year. From these accounts it would be seen that in the year immediately following—in 1805—ti, ex cess was 1 2 0,0001. and in the subsequent years up to the p resent time, as follows In 18e6 JBo3 ao, 18to 1811. A:.161,006 138,006 89,n00 103,009 1 43,° ,0 110,000 The average, it would be seen, might be taken at 123 or 124,0001.'annually. The House were aware how this excess had been met, that it had been paid not out of the public revenue, but out of the funds arising from the excess of the Scotch Civil List, and the Admiralty Droits. The House would fed it improper to apply to the public to pay this excess as long as there were other funds to meet it, bUt it was necessary, in the event of any increase in the excess, to give Parliament the earliest notice of it.' It might have been expeeted, that when it was found the ar rangements made in 1804 were insufficient to meet the charges of the Civil List, that some notice would have been taken of it, but no formal notice bad been taken of it from that time to the present. He would propose-that as long as, by means of unappropriated funds; the annual average excess of 23 or 24,0001. could be met, should be defrayed by no other; but if it should increase so as to exceed its present average, by I 0,0001. that should be deemed sufficient to bring the subjea before Parliament to meet their animadversions, if they shluld be deserved. He was afraid that his statement would not be clearly understood by many • - but with the indulgence of the House, he would ' offer a few words on one other point. He thought it would be nothing but wha: must- be felt to be. perfeElly reasonable-to make some provision for the expences which had already been incurred by His Royal Highness the Prince Re gent.. :When his-Royal Highness first assumed the royal Etna ions, with sanguine hopes that his . Majesty wouldsoon be restored to his people, he had declined receiving any assistance whatever. It could nut; however, be supposed that he could assume the reins of government, in the name of his Majesty, without incurring a very considerable expence. To meet this, he should therefore propose a grant of the sum of 100,0001. He had now stated all that it was ne ce.ssary to bring before the House. The 160,0001. he bad just mentioned would, he thought, be deem ed a very small sum when the object to which it was to be applied was considered. The - 70,0001. to be added to the Civil List was the only permanent charge to be - made on the Consolidated Fund ; and, 'he trusted that the Committee would feel that the artangements 'necessary to be made for the splen dour of the Regent-and the comforts of the King, could not be accomplished' at a less expence. He therefore moved, that a.proVision should be made for the purpose of enabling the Queen to meet the in creased expence,-by granting, in aid of the Civil List, the sum- of 70,0001. to be paid out of the Con solidazed-Fund. PoriBobv, entertained.no disposition to cri tictie the proptisiCions'‘iifiich 'the Right Honourable Gentleman . had - submitted for the consideration of the Committee, he only rose for the purpose of mi. nig, with the utmost &Terence, that those proposi tions to embrace more of complexity than bad ever been broUght within the view of Parliament. The Plan might, in hi. opinion, have been redtned to the sirriplicity. The considerations which uaturally arose cut of the plan were, in the fist place,' what would be the amount of the expence fir carrying the plan into effect ?, and, secondly, u healer ground of necessity exists. for inducing alb Right Hon. Gentleman to call upon- Parliament to burthen the country with that expence. In enter ing into these considerations, he must reverse the order presented by the Right Hof. Gent. and take the latter part of the statement first. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that the Civil List expenditure was greater than the provision made, and that con .eqtently the Committee must expect to be called upon to provide.for the deficiency: that might be very true, but uninformed as he (Mr. P.) WWI 01) ti:e subject, it could wit be expected by the Right Hon. Gentleman that he would come to the conclu sion Before he could.consent to enlarge the Tecennes of the Civil List, he must have some better pr.of of the necessity, than the mere allegation of the Right Honoutable Gentleman. The public would expect to be satisfied also, that neither negli gence, nor extravagance in the expenditure were to be fall() to cause the excess. Would any Gentle man bejmtitied in giving his vote without other proof ? The tflost . 6inple way of bringing before Par; liamentshe regulation; to be made would have been this : :You. voted Certain sums necessary for the ex pence4 Of the Crown, and also for defraying the ex ', pense4 of the GoVertunett, The revenues appropri ated to the support and - splenclour of the Throne, are about to be transferred to the person on whom the functions of Royalty des , ..:end, in consequence of the 'oh-foram:llr situation of the reigning - Monarch; to that person might• be given all that 'Parliament, by its vote, had thought necessary for the support of the Croton, u) Ins discretion might be left the proVi - sion for maintaining the splendour of his Ma levy. The Ri,iht Hon . Gentleman had said the Report of the Physicians must impress on the minds of every one ihat it was necessary for the mainte ranee of hi 3 Mijo.sty's state and civil comfort, that all the splendour now propnsed should be agreed to. There was no man more ready than he (Mr. P.) to contribute to the Comfort and happiness of his M 3, jelty, if he thought splendour in h is unfortunate Nation could produce the desired effect; but on 'looking over the evidence of the Physicians he did ot see oue word which could justify the opinion; that statement conveyed. The Rightlion. Gentle man talked of the " middle state in which his Ma- jes7 might pos:ibly•he placed," but the report did not even premise that such would be the case.-=- Did the Right Hon, G.2ntlernan, when he attended the Committee, ever ask the Physicians any ques-' tion which - could lead him to expe& that his Ma- The Right Hon. Gentkenan would 6nd little tom. fort or consolation in the evidence of Dr. Simmons, who held similar opinions, when he added, " that he never knew an instance of a blind person reco vering from insanity; that in the whole of his praaice in the Hospital he had known seven or eight persons in that situation, and those he called unfortunate -cases o f th e ki n d. Wh a t was there then in the partiCular case of "his Majesty, which made a larger establishment necessary ?: Could his Majesty see any of the officers proposed to be placed about his person ? Was it in proof, that in any one instance,within the last few months, that any one of the high officers of the household had ap proached his person ? The Right Hon. Gentleman might say, that his Majesty might at some future period return to mental health. The same might have been said last year, when the restrittions on the Regent were proposed. But if his Majesty should happily be relieved from his present cala mitouS situation, would not Parliament make pro - - vision for his resuming the Regal Functions, and necessarily provide fur all the splendour attached to Royalty ? There was another part of the plan which he did not - think necessary. It was pro posed to allow her Majesty ten thousand pounds per . annum, because his Majesty kept f ewer carr i ages 40: horses than when exercising the Royal Func tions. 'Was that a reason for Kopp - sing this alloW ance ? When the King was in health, he used those carriages and horses, and, therefore, they could not be necessary for the comfort of the. queen. With `respect to the proposition for taking 100,0001. from the Civil List, on the ground that the family of the Prince Regent was net so large as the family of his Majesty, he (Mr. Ponsonby) was not much acquainted with the Civil List expenditure, and could not offer art opinion further than this, that he believed that the greatest part of the expenses aria jilg out of that Revenge did not originate in the manner stated, but would be the same whether the Sovereign's family was great or small. All that he intended by these observations, was to make it clear to the public that the Parliament were jus tified in voting the additional grants. There was another part of the plan of which he professed his ignorance, namely, the necessity of voting 100,0001. to the Regent for defraying the expenses of accepting the Government. It Was well known that on the occasion of the Regency, his Royal Highness refused to accept the Government upon those terms ; therefore the Right Hon. Gentfeman could not now exped from Parliament any vote which was not strictly corre& and fair. Not hav ing the whole of the resolutions before him, he was not prepared to comprehend the plan, though be did not mean to object to it in all its parts; at the same time, he Wished that the Reigning Mo narch should have all the splendour which properly belonged to his station. The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER did not think the Resolutions when on the table, would give the Right Hon. Gentleman that particular insight into the plan, which.he was so desirous of obtain ing. The natural course of proceeding wouict be, to wait until the Bill was before the HouSe, when the information would be afforded. As to the com plication of the plan, the Committee would do him the justice to recollect, that he had so expressed himself in detailing it, and had referred Gvntlemen to the Bill, as better calculated to give that neces sary explanation. The Resolutions were merely the first step, the Bill would be read (if the Commit jesty would attain that state The questions were all as•to the sanity and insanity of the Monarch's tnind, and the . Physiciatis all concurred in opinion that no such imddle state was expeeled. ate had tee agreed to the Resolution 9 on Monday, and the different .stages might be discussed, as it was not in tended to be hurried through the House. When the Right Hon. Gentleman talked of not com prehending the propositions, he was at a loss to con ' ceive what was wanting -to induce that com prehension, for the Right Hon. Gentleman agreed that his 1.143 j sty's comforts were necessary. «/3s • he not still our King, and was it right that he should be stript of every appearance of dignity ? The Right Hon. Gentleman appeared to quarrel with the pro posed appointments about the Royal Person, and talked of there being too many Lords of the Bed chamber, Eve' nes, &c. because the Physicians con ifidered the case of his Majesty as. hopeless. He did not believe, though the Right lion. Gentleman made these objeetions, that he seriously entertained an opinion or wish in his mind, that the only esta blishmenl necessary was a comfortable maintenance in a sick chamber. Sure he was that the feeling of the House, of the public, and of the Right Honourable Gentleman, would sanCtion such a vote. To dispense with all the dignity attendant on the Sovereign was repugnant to the feelings of the na tion at large. The Right Hon. Gentleman had in sinuated; that he (Mr. Perceval) had not dis charged his duty' in the Committe, in not question ing the Physicians as to*theanobability of his Ma jesty being restored to mental health but he would a,k in return,was there any thing in the slate of his Majesty's health which required the particu lar inquiry on that point ? and was it nut neces sary for Parliament to make provision for the re sumption of th,e Royal Authority in the person of the Sovereign, if happily the period should arrive to enable his Majesty once more to exercise the funs ions of Royalty ? Was not the Himse aware, that up to the sth day of July (the period when the accession, of disorder arose) his Majesty was in the habit of communication with his fam;ly ? On more than one occasion he (Mr. Perceval) had the hap piness of an interview with Ins Majesty, who was competent to all the purposes of common intercourse, and 'feelingly alive to the situation in which he was unfortunately placed; and though the accession pre vented him from resuming the Royal funelions, yet he was capable of enjoying common intercourse, as far as the calamity under which he laboured would permit.. Would the Committee, because his Ma- - jesty',s calamity was great, abstain from rendering to him that comfort which,. when rendered, would make it sit lighter ? He thought not, and therefore trusted that they would agree to the Resolutions. _ _ he wsion . the in - bjeet, lie vtronki cs the Right Hon. Gentleman a question : did the Right Hon. Gentleman consider the claims of his Royal Highness to the arrears of the revenue arising from the Duchy of Cornwall as given up ; or was his Royal Highness at liberty to apply to the House' for those arrears ; or would any proposi: ion be made respe&ing them ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER - Could' not have any thing to propose on the subject of these claims. When they were before Parliament, the tthderstanding was then, that under the arrange ment made with his Royal Highness, the claim had been relinquished. It was a mistake, there• fore, to suppose, that any such claim would be raised. Mr. TIERNEY wished for further time to ender stand the plan. There were two great points in discussion, the one a question between the Prince, and the other of the Constitution. He wished to • be satisfied that .in giving his assent to the plan, he was not for infringing the Constitution. As he un derstood that part of the plan which related to the E , tablishinent of the King, it appeared to him no, thing less than the creation of a new Court, which was unnecessary, his Majesty being still the Sove reign of the country; and never was 'bete a Mo narch more beloved' than the unfertunaie • George 111. Was it necessary to have a separate Court ? sure he was that it was dangerous. ' Mr. Tiereey objeeled to the establishment oinew Officers which the plan proposed; the, drift of it was, to create a separate influence, and seemed almost like a bargin not to continue the restrictions. Without - wishing to . give any offence.whatever to-her -Majesty, lie '• could not hely thinking, that the eret-tion of such a Court was unnecessary, because her Majesty bad already a, splendid Establishment at the expense to the public of 58,0001. annually, which ',Establish ment might serve both. Was it necessary, tor-in stance, that his Majesty should have a Master of the Horse, when he never stirred out of doors ; and did not her Majesty's Establishment furnish a Master of the Horse and Vice-Chamberlain of the Household? He much doubted 4+ltei her so large an expense as now asked ought to. be incurred. _ _ sa id It was a case without hope;" another,. that It was ;1l boc impossible he should recover."— Mr. SHERIDAN rose, in obedience to a call from many parts of the House. He observed, that it was not his intention to trouble the House, but in con sequence of -something that had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman, in- : answer to a question which had been put by his . Right Hon. Friend (Mr . . Ponsonby) respecting the arrears of the Dochy of Cornwall. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said in his answer, that he had no intention of making any allusion in his plan, to those arrears, as a source - of income, or in the light,of claim on the public, on the part.of his Royal Highness, In 1802, when the claims were made by the present Lord Manners, who then held the office of Solicitor-Ge ' nerd to the - Prince, the general impression in the House was, that the claims were well founded, and the Prince had credit given him 'for not pressing them in consequence of the arrangement entered into. To shew that he had not .given up his claims, he would refer to a message which the Prince sent down by Mr. Tyrwhit, and which was entered on the Journals. Oat cf doors it was given out, atid it had greatly surprised him, that the Prince had, in that Message, renounced hid claims for ever. When, therefore, the Right HonouP. able Gentleman talked of his Royal Highness having abandoned his claims, he must have gather ed his authority from the loose reports of the debates at.that time, but principally from the. Annual Re- But if the Right Hon. Gentleman had look e.l at the Journals, he would have fOt . ind the fati was not so, and his Royal Highness could not have given them up without an aft of gross injustice, not only to his creditors, but also to his descendAats. Mr. S. then referred to the Message, in which his Royal Highness declares, that in consequence of the sr..' rangernents made subsequent to the claims being made, he cheerfully relinquishes the suit, and has direaed his Law Officers accordingly. In thus re linquishing his claims for the present, Mr. S. ob served, that his Royal Highness relied on the li berality of his Majesty and of Parliament at some future period for the recognition of them. He would put it to the House to say, whether his Royal Highness had waved all atims to the arrears from 176? to 1782, a period of twenty-one years, by the latter words of the Message which had just been read. The CHAELLOR of the EXCHEQUgII denied that the opinion which he had given had been formed from the perusal o f a n y speeches contained in any of the publications alluded to. His opinion was formed from the perusal of the Menage, to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had just referred, and which, he was almost inclined to think, he had seen for the first time. He had never stated, that he was authorised to• declare, that his Royal Highness had no claims, but that he had renounced them, and he would refer to the very terms of the Message, to prove that it was so. Did not his Royal Highness say, " that he renounced the suit ?" Was not that suit renounced 'in consequence of the previous ar rangements) which made the prosecution of it no longer necessary ? Was there any Gentleman in the House who could conceive it possible, after the in strument just read was entered on the Journ.ds of the Huase, that any person would advise'his Royal Highness to raise any further claims by reviving the suit ? With respect to what the Right Hon. Genile-• 'man (Mr. Tierney) had stated on the subject of the propositions,, he had disclaimed any disposition to give offence to her Majesty. When so doing he had been very liberal of his insinuations to hint (Mr. Perceval), by asserting that there was a - sort'of comma with the Regent to remove the restriction~ by the' et cation of a new Court; that he should have the temerity to make such-an overture was not what every person would credit. It was highly improbable that he should presume 'to suggest suer; • a thing to his Sovereign and Master. It was so pre posterous a supposition that he could hardly con ceive there was a mind so constructed as to engen der the ideas. With resped to the other objec tions in the plan, these might be the subject of consideration when the Bill was brought in, espe cially in the Committee, and he hoped the progress of the plan would nut be tetarded by objedions to the Resolutions. Mr:PONSONBY had not the most distant idea of depriving his Majesty of any thing necessary either to his comfort or dignity but he wished to know whether the Civil List revenue would not .be sale in 'the hands of the Prince of Wales ? Would not his Royal Highness feel for the comfort of his Royal Father ? and it Parliament were to place those reve nues at his disposal, would he not make such a dis position as should contribute not only to his Ma jesty's comfort, but also to his splendour and dig- Mr. SHEIIIDA4 said, the goes ion between the Right fion. Gentleman and him was a mere matter GH WATER AT LON Morning, z ) min. after S. LONDON: Printed by 1 HOMA S WOOD, of No. 35, Maiden-lane t Covent-garden; and Published by WILLIAM Ali MIG F.. it SCRIPPS, South' Molton.tteet,-Gr)zvepor.sq .are, At the SUN Uincz, No, lie, Strand, ,where Advertlsemiyas, Orders for the Paper, Letters for the 11,:ittor o . &c. oustrpaidi a . m.ist.lae addse;sect. ,t or orrifitife diusi tnal the R'gllt Him. Geutlem n bad not _looked to the Re so l ut i on of the HouSe un t il t h at d iy, but had taken his in- ,formation from the Annual Ite- , ister. If i n d ee d h e . had consu!ted the Resolution, Cie was fully capable of understanding it properly, being a gieat adept in the English !ant - lige. If the Pt itiee had said to the House that they had abed so liberal:y with him, as, induCe bun to give, up-all.claims: on the Duchy of Lancaster, the interpretation of the Right Honour. able Gentleman was certainly right but upon ex Minatiori it would be found, that what the Prince had said was, that although the House h d made such and such a provision, still he could not resound his state, but trusting to the gracious interference bIS Majesty, acid to their liberality, he would with.; draw hiS suit against the King his Father, in lint expeaation that they - wOeld enable him to resurri4 that state. If the Right Hon. Gentleman would look at the Resolution before he slept, -he (Mr. 5.7 was rotififent ;hit he. would come the next day and own he was wrong. Indeed it wonld be desirabrd to get a promise trom him to that effed.. The twat things weir - entirely distinct He would appeal tet a Right Honourab e Gentleman (the Master of thei Rolls), if he, bad not retire.! hop' the House during his,speech, for an opinion' upon that' subject His Royal Highness had wirlideawn his - suit condition- , ally, and be was`sure . , if the Right Flon. Geo:lona:I woillttlook to the Journals, - as he had elready sog 7 ; gested, he would come down the next day,''and make t is recantation. Mr. CitartLas ADAMS said, that every one. musty wish shit the Roral dignity should be suOported Oh* der the preSent calainitous circumstances; he wish ed als, tO sugge,t that Ahere were many servants be longing to his Royal Highness's esiablishment, w born there was not r:out in - the Palitett, anti who were conseg nen .1 to lodge t iisel ves con... tiguous to if: The additimi of a thinisand. poum!s for the puriqp:e of remedynT, ti would, be thought, be co object. The First Resolution was agreed to. ien litoposed and Tire - Second, which pledged the Ho :I provide for the resumption of the Royal Aut. , .. by his Majesty', with prdper dignify-, was rro r ~ i and agreed to; after which, the Report was 0, - 11.red to be received to-morrow, and the Papers co bit printed._ . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER .nloved for a SecrEq Coturnatee to exaMine and report to the House what payments were ordinarily directed to lie paid out of the Privy Purse, and to inquire into the necessity of the continuance of the same during his Majesty's illnesh.—Agreed to. Mr. FREEMANTLE ,moved for a Return or all Monies applied in aid of the Civil List, from the sat of July, 1804, to the present time, distinguishing the sums of each year, . and the sources from whence they were paid,—Agreed to. Adjourned. Only 12,000 Tickets, and Two Prizes of 20,0001 is so strong an inducement to adventurers in the Lottery, that HORNSLY and Co. cannot refrain from advising their friends to participate in the chance of obtaining such Capital Prizes. In Lotteries of old, those two chances alone would have formed sub scribers Sufficient to have purchased the few re-. mauling Tickets at three limes the price they are . now to be bought at flortNsßy and Co.'s old esta blished Office, No. 26, Cornhill, where the very first Prize of 20,0001. was sold.—The Drawing Le gins at Nine o'clock on Tuesday morning. Edmund, alias Edward Thrower, commonly rail ed Ned Thrower, of Carbrook, in Not' fo,k, and Jam Head, alias Heads, of Swaffham, in the sline coun ty, have been committed to Ipswich Gaol, on the confession of Thrower, of being present at, and aiding and assisting in the murder of Thomas Car ter, 'in i. 793, and Elizabeth, his daughter. Head is also charged by•Thrower•ikith haring thually corn mitted the murder of Elizabeth (7,ater. Both the `culprits are nearly sixty years of age. And early on Wednesday morning last 11 7 m. Smith, alias Gipsey 11 itl, strongly suspected of being a principal in the above horrid murdcr, was apprchendeJ at Iratiou public house,,near Happisburgh, and committed to Norwich Castle. Head, upon being appi ed to about ten years ago, in-coosequence of some suspi cion, stated, that Thrower had told him that tie had knoCked a girl and an old man on the heaVwith a hammer. Thrower was a short time since, im.enti sequenee of an inquiry respeeling another circutn 7 stance, discovered, and he has stated th-tt he saw Ilea\l murder the daughter. The prisoners will bt2 tried at the next Norfolk Assizes. BIRTHS • On the tat inst. Mrs. Thomas -Peacock. aa Son. On .Weilnesday last, at Kirkham Gate, near Wakefield Out Wood, Sarah, the wife of S. Lunn, a collier, was vered of three fine boys, who,. with the .111 Alter, are likely to do well. MAR R /ED. On the 21st of November last, at Stoak Church, Devon, Captain S. SirJver, of the Hon. E.ist- lndil Company's Ar, tillery, Bombay Establishment, to Maria Strover, eldest daughter of Thomas Strover, Esq. of His MAjesty's 1).144, yard, - On the 9th inst. at St. Thomas's, Charles Lewis. Esq. of Alphington, Secretary to the West or England Insurance! Office, to Martha, second daughter of jo. , ephi3tdwell, chant, of Exeter. - On Thursday last, at Islington, %VlMaul Cretin, Esq. of Spitaqijids, to Ann, only daughter of lames Foot, Esq. of the same Parish. DIED. On Wednesday, in the 78th year of his age, john son, Esq.. of Ho!gate, York. The saute morning, at his house in Winipole-street, Ca. .vendisl► square, aged 75, Henry Penton, I:sq. On the 14th inst. at john kisiter Weare's, E•q. at Ash. ton, ►tear Bristol, ofa scarlet fever, in the 14th }ear of his 'age, ,John . Phil:l4, youngest son of Samuel Gardiner, Esq. of Coombe Lodge, Oxfordshire. l'R ICE S TOCKS YEBT fiRDAY. Hank Stock, 2111 3301 23 Navy s per Cent. 94 Irish 5 per Cent. India Bonds, r7s. as. pr. E.xclieq. bills, 34.• pr day, .3s. .4s• Pf. -- 3 - 1 - ( 1 . Per day, 3s. 6s. pr. Uranium. dis. I itipertal 3 per Cent. 6)i 61 Ditto Ann. 4 7 8 it 3 pe( Cent. r. cu. 6. 63, 3 per Cent: Cons. 61 Bank 1_ Anti. r 6 ,, 5- ..6tils India Stock, iSz i int 4L. ►ON BRIDGE. TO-MOR VV. I Evening, 27 min. after