The Sun. — London, England, 1823-04-25 00:00:00

-grounile to - hope for 'success. During the last eighteen years 1 abe Noble Earl had been in the habit of coming down, for 10 of them, with glowing representations in the .growing prosperity of the country. In the next six or seven he had been-occu pied in casting off front himself and his colleagues the effects vi this own improvidence, But affairs impreved again, and from is description of the hie station which the country had attain.. cd, he made them all quite ravished with their situation. They were led to believe that they were indeed the Lotds of mankind —that nations attended at their nod—and that they were able to " shake the spheres." But when the 'time arrived for the trial of our greatness, then the tone wag changed, and the - Noble Earl, like Timotheus, unwilling to risk any thing for glory, declared for neutrality. " War, he sung, is toil and trouble ; Fame is but an empty, bubble; • , Take the good, the Gods provide thee, ealeovely Thaiti sits beside thee." Buteperhans he would find that lovely Thais did not,sid beside tethathis cohnnistxess, Neutrality, would not prove .what he:expected; and, perhaps, ere long, some illetimed liberty taken with her might separate them for ever. Ile knew of no greater instance of humiliation than that, exhibited by the Noble Earl and hie colleagues in the late negociations.e l or the' con. tinet.of the Bourbons, he could not undertake to describe it ; but their conduct had been so well pictured by a great master of the human heart of former times, that though the passage to which he alluded was almost too long to quote, he would ven ture to repeat it to their Lordships. Ile would give the lines ee he found them, and say,— But shall it be, that yon,—that set the Crown .Upon the head of this forgetful man; And,for his sake, wear the detested blot Of inurtProtis subornatiohi—shall it be, That you a world of curses undergo; - . Being the agents, or base seciend . means, • The cords, the ladder, or the hangman rather 1— 0, pardon me, that 1 descend so low, To chew the line, and the predicament, • Wherein you range under this subtly i King. Shall it, for shame, he spoken in theie days, Or fill up chronicles in time to come, 'that men of your nobility anti power, 'gage them thus in an Unjust behalf ? And shall it, in more shame be further spoken, That you are fooled, discarded, and shook oft" The course which the Noble Earl had taken to prove that him. self and kis Colleagues had not been duped was singular. He had compared their conduct to that of .4 man in love, and in excuse for their folly — "'Tat Love will hope where Reason would despair ;" anti acting thus they proved themselves ready to become the dupes of all mankind. Ile complained that the representations made by this Government were rather dissuakions, founded on the inexpediency of the meditated attack, than remonstrances against. the principle contended for. The past conduct of this country had encouraged France to take the course she now pursued. Let them suppose Prince Metternich andahe Mini sters of the Continental Powers debating on the Note of the late Marquis of Londonderry, was it net to be expected that they would say, " Never mind their language; let us see how they have acted. In the case Of Naples, though they disap proved, they suffered us to acts they stood at the door while the murdet'was committing, and made no eflbrt to prevent the consummation of our perfidy. There will be a little blustering at first, but nothing more." I - le compared Ministers to sportsmen who pursued the chase through by-lanes and obscure paths, who if they got in at the death of the fox were considered clever fel lows, but who if they chanced to be thrown out from their sly efforts to gain the credit of dexterity, were held up to merited ridicule. Ile admitted that the Spanish Constitution contained some things that were impolitic. But he (Lord Holland) though he had corresponded with many people in Spain, till in twine measure prevented by the tyranny of this man Fer dinand, and though he had spenttsome years of his life in that country, he had never ventured, like the Czar of Muscovy from his ices and snows, to assert, that that Constitution was not fit for the habits of the country. The same Constitu tion, however, had been guaranteed by that. 'great personage in Rat But that WO all done away by the declaration of one of the Members of the Holy Alliance, that it was ne ceseary to approve of that Constitution then, but . it could notlie adhered to now. In the year 111-t, the..rariperor of Ruesia had been on what he might call liberal tack. Ile was then about to give a constitution to Warsaw. On this subject a correspondence took place, in which, the .late Lord Londonderry argued ;tattiest the Emeror taking posseseion of Wartaw for welt purpoee ; remarked, that it' his Imperial majesty was so anxious to make, in experiment of eleat tam e lie taut provincee of his own hi which the trial could lot nettle: Tide love great offence. The Emperor imeneeiately mounted his high herein Ills letters no more began with etion Mee," —awl mach was said or the feeliog excited - wneit he came to that paseege in the Noble Ltietra letter. After that the Emperor did not confine his labours on the subject oe iemetitathato to hie veil, but like another Ago:nehmen he came before the world, atul his intentions were no longer secret. White they were " The Greeks had witneseed—all °weenie?, heitrelP The Noble Lord proceeded to condemn the : seeps taken to in. duce the Spaniards to alter their'Constitution, and declared if the Spaniards manifested a strict, punctiliousi and even foolish regard for their oaths, he should hail this as an auspicious omen, as it proved a just reverence and regard for theme principles on which the Constitution ought , to be founded. One great objection made on the part of Russia to the Constitution, was that the King could not marry Whom he pleiteed. . It might be rema:ked by the way, that the King of England could not marry a Catholic. Then came the remark from the Mike, that the King could not perfbrin his functions, and then came Cita ' teaubriand with the cry " that, the, Constitution would not al low his Majesty to visit watering-places." lie wished to know 'whether it was intended to introduce an article. nto the Consti. tution to enable the King to marry, to pale= lds functions, and go to watering-places ? Ile noeiceti±ehe other objec. .dons made to the Constitution, and, adverting to the ne. gociatione, applauded the dignity, and pathos of the letter of Monsieur San Miguel, which he thonght anight he ad. vantageously compared with the produeteons of our Se cretary of State, rind those of 31. Chateaubriand. The Noble Lord then eulogised the conduct of the patriot Arguelles, who, having . quitted his studies to labour for the restoration of his Sovereign, had been doomed to exile tinder a burn ing sun by that Soveteign. Brought back by no acts'of mercy on the part of the King, but by that event which some persons had the heart to deplore, he had ever since. been occupied to pour conciliation into the minds of hie countrymen. The then'proceeded to argue, that the question Dow before the House was not the question of war or peace.— They declared they would not have war, but he would ask them if they were certain that 'they had peace ? Ile would reek if • this had not become very doubtful since the Papers had been laid on their table ? Ile would ask it' they could question the statement of a Snish vessel having been caphired by a French ship in the West Indies, pursuant to • orders front home ? War was thus commenced elsewhere be fore it began in Europe, anti while still negocieting, French ships were dispatched to the West Indies. Did he not know that the Insurance Ofliees would he called upon to lay for that vetted he had mentioned? The Noble Earl when asked a few evenings before if he believed no treaty existed between Xraticc and Russia, binding the latter to support the former, he answertal that he knew of none. Would the Noble Lord now stand up in his place, and say that he believed no treaty had been entered into between France and Russia for carrying into effect the measures decided upon it at Verona? Did not the Noble Earl see clouds and storms gathering around hint P - The Noble Lord had said, he saw no grounds for going to war on account of Portugal. Ile however would contend that Por tugal was 43 liable to attack 113 Spain, wed' might be attacked on the same principle, and our Note of preserving -peace must therefore rest oe the notable guarantee of the assurances of a Prince of the House of Bourbon, and on the moderation of French army in the hour of vietory. He argued that Eng land heraelf might be attacked with at good reason, and re marked, that they now heard no more trout the other side of the House of " the balance of power in Europe," which it had '`formerly been the pride of this Country to maintain. He next , contradicted the Noble Earn' statement of. his historical recut. Be. concluded by lementing the magaitude of the failure to be remarked on the part of Ministers, and the proofe afforded that .this wax occasioned by errors of. judgment, aud want of .capa city. Ile deeply regretted that aglorious opportunity had beets :Most on the part of tide country for taking its proper station to defend the weak against the strong ; to stand up as the sham ,pion against oppreesion, and the advocate for civil and religious liberty ail over the world. Lord GRENVILLE was satisfied that his Majesty's Minis ters, in the lute negociations, had taken that course which was best fitted to maintain the honour, and further the best interests •aef this country. He ably defended the policy which they had preferred, and moved an amendment, declaring the conduct of Mittieters in the late negociation to meet with the entire con currence and approbation of that Howie, as it embodied the _judicious application of thete principles which it had been the policy of this country to maintain ; to acknowledge with grad titude the unceasing efforts of his Majesty to prevent war be tween France and Spin, to rejoice that his Majesty was no inlay to war which did not appear to them necessary for the honour and interests of England, but at the same time assur ing hint of their ready support whenever a war should be ne emery to maintain the dignity of' the Crown and the rights and just interests of the nation. The Duke of BUCKINGHAM not-only . objected to the Address, but to the arguments in favour of it. It seemed to .:be the object of the two Noble Earls to go to war with France on account of Spain, and if the Address were carried that night, it would be proper to put the army anti navy on an efficient rfaoting for active service to-morrow. lie defended the .con.. duet pursued by Government in the late negociationa. At Ve rona, the path to be pursued by England was a straight for ward one. Few instructions were wanted for the guidance of his Ndblc and Illustrious Friend, who represented this coml.; try at the Congress. It was only necessarrfor us,' nanding'on that high eminence to which former glorious eultions had raised us to warn other nations against a renewal ar, lie dare it to be the intention of tins country to remain' neutral, but at the same time tolnake known our Jinn determinatin to I sustain the character, and assert, under all circumstances, the honour and true interests of England. Claiming the right to forth an opinion of the Spanish revulntion _for purselyto, we. had no power to deny France the right of doing the same,— How she had used that discretion .was perfectly a distinct consideration. The Noble Duke, adverting to - the ergoments respecting the balance of 'power, cited the opinion of an illustrious Duke who had tbrmerly discussed the sub ject. The importance to be attached - to that political ba. lance must depend on the actual state of Europe. The balance of power at the present day had a different meaning front that it bore in the reign of Louis XIV. In that reign Spain and the Indies were on the scale. The same words might mean one thing one day and another at a different period. :He could not agree with those who thought there was cause. of war. Neutrality was the best course this country could pur sue. What could be the object of war ? Would a war insure the balance of power? What would become of Hanover ? Would it secure the East from falling into the hands of Rus sia? He felt neutrality was necessary, and his prayer was for the preservation of peace ; but if the country was forced into a war, he prayed to God, notwithstanding he might meet with obloquy, that if we were to he forced to take the field, it might not be to support the principles then prevalent in Spain. Ile could not forget that the spirit of revolution still existed: to un dermine and reduce all that was regular in the moral establish- tents of society. For thirty yea . ; resolution had called on this country to spill her blood, which had flowed like wateree- The Noble Duke expressed a hope that other countries might not be called Upon to war in support of revolutionary principles: The Duke of SUSSEX rose to return thanka for the notice a Noble Duke had taken of him, and to gay his opinion on the balance of power, difited from that expressed by the Noble Duke. His Royal Highness had discussed the subject on dif ferent principles. Be was 'not desirous. of interrupting mho portant debate by further observation on that point. Lord KING said, the Ministers lout been in fool:;' paradise. Ile read the papers with grief and astonishment. ' They dis played nothing bia cold-bear;ed apathy in the cause of Spain and liberty. They must go back to. the reign of Charles the Second, before they could discover the base policy. which marked the late negocintions. They mnst return to the nego tiation when the Crown of Spain wanted, the Spanish Nether land—to the reign of Louis XIV., wheri base Ministers had nothing in view but the legitiMacy of Sovereigns. The settle ment of peace at Paris was the sturendir of our best interests in Europe, and the Government were now obliged to acknow, ledge that they were notable to defend themselves and others against despotism. Earl ABERD.EEN could not join in the unqualified cen sure which the Noble Lord had thrown on the Government. His opinion was that they did not deserve the accusations which had been made. The House should, not forget that his Ma. jesty's Government had never believed that France would invade Spain until after the King's Speech had removed all doubt; but that circumstance was of no importance with re. specs to the course of the negociation. The Noble Duke as. sorted all the principles of liter discussion. The Noble Duke said, " You are alarmed at the dangers which the Spanish Re volution are likely to produce, but I will shew you that your hostility will, only increase those dangers." The Noble Lords said, the language used by the Noble Duke should have been more lofty. He could not avoid feeling that menacing pan. guage, on the part of England, would have made the war of the French King more popular, and we should have been re. duced to this prediment —if we had not followed it up by hostile measures, we should have been a degraded nation.— If we had gone to war, what would have been the situation of the country ? We should have engaged in a war whilst the country was recovering front the effect of along conflict. He took the liberty of praising the conduct of that Illustrious Person who, like his predecessor, the Duke of Marlborough, had acted with the greatest complacency and temper apon a diplomatic, subject, where irritation was net likely to produce any pub lic good. With respect to the alteration of the Spanish Constitution, the state of Spain was considered, and, the re. commendation was given in the most friendly manner. The Noble Earl cited the dispatch of Mr. Canning on the subject of . modification, lithe Ileum! viewed the subject, with fairness, it would not be made the ground of accusation. The principle of strict neutrality was the best course they could adopt. In, the correspondence with Sir W. A'Court, it was admitted that the friendship and union of England with 'other Powers could maim interrupted. Looking back to questions agitated with in those walls during the last 20 years, he could sax, be never in his life gave a more cot!q:icsitioua vote than he Nomad give against the motion of the Noble Lord. The Earl of DARNLEY said, the question at issue was, whether his Majesty's Ministers had adopted: the beat course for preserving peace. lie believed the Noble Doke had acted in strict conformity with his Instructions. Ile did not doubt that the Noble Duke had been actuated by the same-honourable feeling which distinguished his illustrious predecessor, the'Duke of Marlborough. After the fruity Of his great victories; he was intitled to use high language, and it must have been painful not to stand In the highest position. lie really felt that menace might have been resorted to in order to prevent the military oc cupation of Spain and Portugal by France, which was at all times to be dreaded by this country. He should , support the motion on the ground that the line of policy pursued could, not I preserve peace. The Duke of WELLINGTON said he could not suffer the debate to come to a conclusion without making a few observa tions. lie was obliged to the Noble Lord who had expressed a hope that he should be able to make out , his defence: He stood before the House not only as the Negociator at Verona but as a Member of the Cabinet. He called on the Noble Lords to say explicitly whether they would have taken.a neutial line or a line of war. The Noble Lords had not declared whe. 'ther they would have declared for war or peace. The Govern- Ment had determined on neutrality, and he went to Verona to preserve the line of neutrality. On the question of neutrality , be went into conference with the Ministers of other Govern 'ltems. lie negotiated for neutrality under the instructions he received, and upon that alone the Noble Duke said he might rest his case. He went to Verona, and in the :Congress of Sovereigns and their Ministers he used the arguments which he thought best for the preservation of the peaceof Europe. He had been blamed for not having acted on a principle laid down byl the Marquis of Londonderry In 1021. In point of fact, the principle found its the paper left by Lord Lon donderry, never wits admitted by.the Allied Sovereigns. Ili was not sent to insist on that principle in- that paper, but to withstand all interference in the affairs of Spain. The Noble Duke added, that he . endeavoured' to persuade the Mini s ter s from his knowledge of Spain, to refrain from taking that course. It was said he had been duped. He, no doubt, fore. saw the possibility of' war, but was he to go and insult the So. verigns and their Ministers by putting forth topics on which he knew there was a diflierence of opinion. He was thankt'ul to the Noble Lords for the palm they had taken to impress upon him the obligation he was under of coining fairly out of the in vestigation. He should; however, have felt' more obliged to them if they had taken less pains to pervert his conduct, and apply meanings which they knew, did not belong to it. They had said, after lie received instructions front Mr. Canning to declare that his Majesty would not be a party to any inter, ference in the affairs of Spain, he disobeyed that instruction: Ile might ask whether, at the thine he delivered his Note of the 30th of October, there was any endeavour by force to menace or to interfere with Spain. When there was such An intention he made a remonstrance, and declared his Majesty's intention not to be a party to hUCII interference. The Noble Duke reed the remonstrance, end said . he considered him self acquitted, because his ajesty's Government approved of the declaration. Ile was then bleMed fir stating that the French Government was justified in forming an army of ob servation. Whit could say when there was a civil war on the opposite frontier that it was not competent for France to m umble an army on her own frontier. That he should be found in fault for having admitted a point upon which there could really be no difference of 'opinion was most surprising. With respect to the language held out at Verona, he must say that he considered it more, manly, as the representative of his Sovereign to hold fir m but respectful language. His re preeentations were made as firm and confident as possible. If the Noble Lords required; they would find that so far from there being any want of firmness, it would appear that he went as far as he could: go. On the subject of media. tom, his opinion founded upon a knowledge of Spain was, that some conciliatory measure was necessary to facilitate the peace of Spain. Modification' in the Constitution was proposed, but the object he had, in view was detailed is the Papers. He was ready to rest his case on the merits. He would rely on the Papers, and his hope was that the Noble Lords would not adopt the opinions of others, but look at the Papers, and fairly consider that the object he had in view was to traduce the Spanish people •to make a change for their own benefit. The House, by taking a calm, unbiassed view of the whole case, could only be able to say, whether there was any thing inconsistent in his conduct. The Noble Duke wished to rest his case on the statement to be found in the Papers. Earl GRE V rose to offer stone observations, although he des. paired of being able to counteract the effect of policy adopted by his Majesty's Ministers. The Noble Duke had asked, did they mean Peace, or did they mean War ? To that distinct Iwo. position the Noble Duke said no one had been able to answer. He would state distinctly his answer to the proposition. lie did not feel, with the Noble Duke, that the balance of power was any thing or nothing. It was every thing when Spain was Sub ject to France. Ile would tell him, when the interest of this country was overcooked, the country was in danger. A Mi nister should he prepared to meet that danger by representa tion under the desire that justice might be'done ; but if zepre sentation produced no effect,. it was the duty of Government to support stiong language with all the strength God had given this country. , That answer would perhaps satisfy the Noble . Before he proceeded to what he considered the bad policy of the ,country, he diselainied all misrepresentation. — With pain he saw the name of the Noble Duke tarnished in ,the , negeciation.. It was, however, far from his intention to . inace any charge against the Noble Duke,. wilo had followed instructions. The odium would rest on his Majesty's Mini sters.: What he lamented was, that the Noble Duke should have been made tO•folkiwinstructions which were net calcu lated to support the interest of the country. He then wished to discuss the principle on which this cold negociation.had ter minatede Who could hear without surprise, that where there was ari.evideat intention to make Spain subject to France, his Majesty* .Ministers were, determined to preserve strict neu trality. After' all he had heard on the balance of power, and the ascendancy of England. it really was surprising to hear the .Noble Lords and Ministers say, " Come what may, though the scheme of Louis the Fourteenth be again at tempted Great Britain will have nothing to do with the war." 'lt was a painful consideration that the Noble Duke of all men should have been made to: go with such instructions to Verona. The declarations that we denied the Power to in in the affairs of Spain, was accompanied by apology, which never should have been made. The Noble Duke said, he was not prepared to insult the Sovereigns and their . Ministers by the introduction of questions on. which he knew there wits a difference of opinion. lle could not complain of respectful conduct., but he complained that par tiality, that favour, had been shewn to the cause of France. The Noble Duke said there could be no difference of opinion on the right of France to establish an Army of Observation. If that army was stationed there to watch over anti foment insur. tection raised by France herself in Spain, he, for 'one, should consider it a measure disgracdul to any civilized State. But in the speech of the King of France, whose word was so sacred, the olkiect of the cordon 4.lo4tajre was declared not for offensive operations. It was known' at. the very tithe, the ltegency . q I irgel was sanctioned by that very army, and one of its Mem bers received by the Minister . at Paris. If his Majesty's Go vernment suit not know the fact why did they not know it If this was true did it not make a man's blood rise with indig nation when he found a British Minister admitting the necessity far that army of observation. Ireland was disturbed ; and if a fleet was formed at Ferrol or Corunna, to keep up a correspon. dente with the disturbed districts of Ireland, would the Noble Duke say such interference , was to be justified ? M. Villele, taking advantage of the admission of the Noble Duke, had declared they were justified in keeping a force on the fron. tier. No British Minister ought to have recognized for. a moment the existence of that army. The Noble Duke complained of misrepresentation, and declared that he was employed to mauttain neutrality. If so, why did a British Minister employ himself in advancing the in. terest of Frew by recommending concessions to her ; con cessions, however, had they been made, would not have pre. vented military concessions. The proposition made by the Noble Duke was one the country should not have.made. Me. 'diation did not require the proposition. It was calling for submission front Spain to France, a concession she could not mike on any principle of mediation. M. de Clutteaubriand, with respect to that proposition, had shewn himself a bad writer of State Papers. The Noble Earl was ready to sup port peace, if peace could. be preserved. At a moment when the . interests of the country were about to recover, it was the duty of Government to preserve Peace, but that interest must be opposed if the safety of the country re •quired it.' What was the . principle pursued by the French Government! Was it not odious and unjust—the claim of a right to interfere in the affeirs of -a Foreign State—it claim-0 the most dangerous description ? He was an advocate for Par. liamentary Reform ; but if a foreign Power was to say the House of Commons is corrupt, they do not speak the send nients of the people, we will see there shall be a change—. front that moment he would alter his opinion,. and sheiF the last drop of blood rather than tidier foreign interference.— It might be said, France and Spain were not remote coun tries,, but could that justify the principle upon which she had acted ? - Why Should the triumph of France be prefered to the establishment of a free constitution in Spain? What Englishman could avoid feeling pain at finding this coon. try support France in such a design rather than Spain ?-.- 'lt might be said we could not use menace. Ile should say, if war was the alternatiitc,Tetthe country go, to war.' His sincere, belief was, that war would - net have been the alternative had Mi nisters done their duty'; itavould haVe been a secure and ho nourable peace. IL ; then eapoe. to the question, as taaviutt would have' been the (Unger of' war. If war had taken place, it would at least have secured us the .friendship of allitidepend ent StateS. The prospect would' have been cheering. Spein would have been seen fortning a Constitution upon pritoptes which - Mimi insure ultimate success. We should:have been united in commercial interests. If war had taken place it would 'have been founded onprificiples of honour, and carried on with tbe wadies of not .only all independent states, but the wisbes of the people of France themselves. It was not possible to say whether the war would remain popular in France or not; but F he did not believe that a contest, undertaken on principles of justice and moderation, could be unpopular. It was a strange thing to hear that shrinking from war could preserve peace.- France was advancing.to compel the people: to restore the King ef Spain. If they were to succeed, would it not excite displeasure in that country ? France must then keep an • rmy ur Spain, as Austria did in Naples. : That must be the• e ffect if' France was successful. That she may not be successful, exclaimed 'the . Noble Earl, God of his infinite mercy grant I The war was . backed by the Holy Alliance, 'who Said it was a struggle for peace, but it was the peace of the tomb, the silence of the grave. When this country. gave up liberty, their benevolent intentions would be carried into effect. 'Phe invasion of Spain Was indeed one of the most formidable dangers which ever threatened this country, even in the time of Napoleon ; could the House see with indifference the prospect of Russia supporting France ? Did they reflect upon the consequence which Might arise from the system of defence which Spain had adopted ? The object of Spain was to follow the example of her invaders, and endeavour to excite rebellion, in France. against her Ministers. If a revolution in France should again set Europe in a flame, and the Monarch. of Russia should march his forces again to what he called the Western Provinces, could this country keep out of war ? The Noble Earl concluded by giving his conscientious vote for the motion. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, he was willing to allow, that in the.course of. what had fallen *Om the Noble. Earl, he hail given their Lordships this advantage—.he had spoken more distinctly than the other Noble Lords who had preceded hint upon that side of the question, as to the cmiu'se which they thought his Alajesty's Government ought to have pursued. lie never was so much surprised as when he came down to the House that night, and found • the Noble Lord who introduced the question adopting such a course, and propOsing such an Address as was now in the hands of their Speaker to be laid on the Woolsack. To hint that A ddreas was perfectly unintelligible. He knew not what it meant ; ;and it was nupossMle to say whe ther it was for peace or war. From what had passed before, he had indeed understood that the Noble Lord wail f o r w ar ; hut now he was afraid to declare it in the proptised address.— ( Hear, hear 1)—Ile was ready to admit that the vhole tendency and meaning of the Noble Earl's speech who spoke last, was this--" You aught to have gone to war ratter than. suffer France to invade Spain. This ought to have bepn the doctrine held at Verona—title language.. ought to have been firmly spit decisively spoken fo France.' - This was the only ground uptin which the conduct of Government could bp impugned, and dila was what the Nohle Lord Ought to have emboa i ied in his Ad dress. But ins t -of that open and manly course', forthe sake way --p of catching a fe y votes--(Hear hear !)...--he had shirked tlt l and blinked. the . .ly question which wasreally at issue.— (CI lee ri.)—The ihstructions given to his Noble Friend, the Duke of Wellington,Were, that to any interference with Spain, come what may, his Majesty would not be a party. This was the re sult of the deliberations of the Cabinet upon what he readily ad mitted was one tifthe greatest questions upon which a Govern ment could ever be called upon to decide. They decided for neutrality, and open, that decision all, their Subsequent conduct hung ; that waathq.key to all their acts throughout the negocia. dons which .ensued; and upon this Aeon arose the greatest ' misconceptions o f t h ose who dissenteg from the propriety of that conduct. The. , said , " Oh ! you'rt for neutrality, but yet you might act as if you intended war." 3 Whether they deter mined *lightly or not in choosing neutral4y, would be a question for after inquiry; hut having adopt* neutrality, he con tended that th e on ly true course was to useiill the means in their power to avo id wa r. Was peace, then, best to be a- tained by a high an d ha u ghty tone towards other Powers, or by that frank declaration and reference to the true principles of the question whi c h th e y had thought proper to make ? His Noble Friend had said truly, that they had no occasion to pu t, forward principl es —th e y had Only to refer to them. The true principles for width they contended hail already been put for ward in ino an d 1821. Upon one occasion they were ad vanced in opposition to different principles laid down by other Powers. The Note of Viscount Castlereag h, of 1821, was in an swer to a Circular previously i ss ued by the Allied Governments. Throughout a ll approval of the c onduct of Spain. opposition to the conduct a Fr a nce, and consequently their the recent tie the y had ex p ressed their They had all along de. clared their opinion upon the injustice of her conduct, upon the falsehood of the pimmples she was acting upon, and upon the danger likely t o result from her acts. - It had, indeed, been confessed by the Government of Spain herself, that we had done as much for her as she could expect us to do at Verona. — Where, therefore, was the impropriety of recommending to her as friends and supporters a course which would be calcu lated to preserve the peace of the world, consisting of those alterations whicirshe might think necessary in her Constitu tion ? To those• who thought they ought to have adopted a menace upon' the chance of preventing war, he would say, that this was not a case in which such a course was Practicable. He could understand the advantage of using a menace with luch a view, when the - ipestion in dispute had a distinct and single object. If, in the case of France seizing Minorca, we were to interfere and say, that unless it Were given up to'Spain; - we Wteald 'declare war—then he could understand that, upon the chance of her acceding to'our re quest, war might be avoided. But if they had said at Verona, " If you invade Spain we will declare war," no such distinct result could have been obtained : because France might have conceded the point tit :invasion, but still have kept up her army of observation, which we had no right to oppose; and thus all the evils would have remained with 'perhaps increased irritation and hostile feeling between the two countries ; and the only alteration that could have been effected was the delay of actual hoStilities for a few weeks or months. This was not, then, a case where menace could have been used with even a chance of advantage. The establishment of an Army of Observation might have been , abused, and made instrumental to improper objects, yet when Spain was the theatre of a civil war, and this the Noble Earl had entirely left out of view' in the whole of his speech ; the maintenance I of such an army might be justifiable, and in some cases even neccessary for the protection of the people of France; parti cularly if accompanied by a frank avowal to the Spanish Go verninent of the intentions of the French. But this part of the subject he was quite content to rest upon the Papers before the House. The real question for their Lordships to de cide was whether the policy of this Government had been right or wrong in not going to war with France.. But he fore.vroceeding to this, there was some general topics to which . the e Nohle Earl had resorted that required his notice. The Noble Earl said, that he (Lord Liverpool) had . formerly been prodigal of the military exertions of the'country. He, too, bud a memory upon that subject, In 1808, he considered the situa tion of Europe to have been changed so as to require the greatest , possible etthroe on the part of this country. He was then is his Majesty's Councils, and he thoughtit rightto recom mend that Spain and Portugal should be made the theatre of war. And he remembered that the Noble Earl then opposed our making war with Spain against her invaders the French.— Ile recollected that the Noble Earl then foretold that in a few months there would not be a single soldier left in Spain. Earl GREY denied having said what the Noble Earl im puted to him. The Earl of LIVERPOO,L did not mean to sat, that these were the words of the Noble Earl " • but he contended that such was the sense of what he then said. He perfectly well remem bered that, when in answer ,to some questions put to him re• specting the state of our armies in the Peninsula, he stated his opinion as to their successful exertions, the Noble Earl said, he only desired that those words should be remembered. It was now objected to that this country ehould have recom mended 'any alteration hi the Spanish Conititution under a fo'., reign menace.. But was there no difference between the dictation of a hostile Power and the suggestion of friends ? But did they ask the Spanish Government to concede to their enemies by changing what they thought it would be wrong to change, or even that which they considered doubtful ? No; but only such parts of their Constitution as they . were all agreed upon as, be. mg impracticable. And here again he must appeal to his me mory as to the former opinions of the soble Earl. He remem bered that at the time when this country was engaged in a weer terrible magnitude, and, he believed. with a mutiny in her fleet at the same moment, the Noble Earl and his friends seceded from their places, because they could not effect the most im. portant alteration that ever was proposed to he made in the British Constitution, under the name of Parliameotary Re form. The supporters of a war policy always overlooked the difference 'between Spain as it was now, and Spain in 108—then an united, and now a divided. country. It was a farce to say that the civil war now raging in Spain was eretite ed by the French Army of Observation, It might have fet tered and harrassed the Government in its endeavours to put it down, but there was no man who knew Spain, and Who had passed through it, but knew that it was a divided countrY, and could hardly tell which was. the largest . party. He would riot undertake to say which formed the majority. He admit ted that a country like this ought alwaya to be prepared for War, but before entering into war, those who directed its Ope.: redone were bound to weigh all the chances of success, and of the effect which either success or defeat would have Upon 1 7 ilt:s i l: f tsr i . t si w ol e ill r u e uti 7 i,her e a a ,id r a t e l r e o tt t ig h le , st i4 of ; s ds p i a ii i i t , ,, its interests. ‘‘nd Noble Lords opposite. seemed to speak -of a contended, ti r y him o la u t t i o d if wh walk French army gained done nothing towards that conquest..., Unless, indeed, the body of the people rose ill their favour against the Constitution, and then the whole question would be altered. Did the Noble '1 Earl forget that Spain was almost es lame ai France, and that from her localities she was the strongest power in Europe to resist the attack of a foreign enemy ? The 'very defects as well its the virtues of the Spanish character emnbined to render her conquest most difficult if not impossible of ' execution.' It was therefore madness to suppose that Prance could ever obtain that kind of dominion over her which would be . dangerous to the balance of power, or inimical to the inte rests of this country. He remembered an argument which lie used iu 1309 and 1810 against the Noble Earl; that the stone thing would happen in Spain which happened in our North AmericeO Colonies, and which applied to the present case. He then Stated that France might be successful Upon the point to which she went, but that every post she left, she lost, and that, she, could remain the mistress of no more of the country than that occupied hy her army."Phe result had fully justified the opinions he then entertained. • But it was said, " Will you who assisted Spain to drive the French from her soil, leave her to be occupied by the,'Saine Power without aid ing her in her resistance ? And lie contested that this was a strong appeal to their Lordships' judgment and feelings. • But if country did go ipto war with such an object, it must be r i u c vl s o i : t lio lt n a i n T e with all her might and power. To send out* a fleet would be hundredof no as all 'i hey 14 84 l k vs c owu t el h el:l a t betl o ln u e r at thousand s a henothing g o i r ifl t t a t her r t v y l oi war " h commerce, d i 1 n t c s d o i l r e t d li e w o r a u a ' nd sst entering t o h a n v t e a e ; e chance of success. And here again they came to the divisions in Spain. To assist Spain'against a foreign enemy was one and to assist her with one half df Spain against herself was another. Ile should not detain their Lordships at that late nour, but lie could not abstain from saying a few words upon another point, as to the question of the general policy of the country. It was said that the question now was whether we should be the leaders of constitutional liberty, or come in to the, toil of despotism. lie would here say that nothing ever gave him so much pain as the circular of Austria, Russia, and Prussia, to which hie, Noble Friend the late Lora !Anthill derry answered by note. Never was there an occasion upon which the principles of despotism and anarchy had been brought to such close issue, and the effects were now visible throughout Europe. Looking, therefore,. at the state of the world with regard to the conflict now waging between these Bincons their true course was that of being guided by the itish 'Coostitution, which was a compromise between the principles of 51onarchy and Democracy Upon that ground their policy should be a middle or neutral course ; to keep free from either party in the struggle—to stand upon our own Constitution—neither to be on one side the abettors of despotism, nor, on the other, the supporters of thoae wild and anarchical doctrinet, which would be the no less cer tain destroyers of liberty. In all such questions as the pre sent, this policy was applicahlg. It was the duty of the (iti. verrinte.nt to take a whole review of what the interests of the country required; .and if it.were put to the country, whether, upon this occasion, we should choose war o r peace, lie was con, vinced that ninety-nine,men out of a hundrt would say—' 4 ,,,Re_ main at peace." The` whole otestion was one of chances, and the just course was to let the chances of peace be preferred to tha chances of war.--(Hear, hear !) Earl GREY explained. Lord Ar-vANLEY and the Marquis of LAxspowx support ed the motion. • Lord ELLENBOROUGH replied; and the House divided on the Amendment : Contents Proxies 96 46 -142 29 Non-Contents Proxies . • -48 Majority in favour of the Amendment -94 Adjourned at lIALI-PAST Two. HOUSE- OF , COMMONS. FORE toisr AFFAIRS. Mr. Secretary CANNING presented certain additional Pa pers relating to the late negociations. Ordered to be printed. Several Petitions were presented against the Sciuthwark Court of Requests Bill. Laid on the table. CA P T 11 RE OF THE SPA NMI CORVETTE; Mr. BROUGHAM, seeing one of the Lords of the Admi ralty in his place, wished ,to ask a question, that for the sake of the national honour he hoped would be answered in the nega tive. It had been stated in the Public Journals that a Spanish corvette had been captured in the 'West Indian Seas by a French cruiser. ,He desired to know , whether the Admiralty were in possession of any information upon the subject. As the intelligence had reached this country, this capture must have taken place six weeks ago, and the letters'Of marque and reprisal must have been dated it a time its much antecedent of the capture, if the cruiza• was authorized by the French Government. In that case there had been the grossest perfitlY on the part ,of that Government; and if no letters of marette had been granted, the crew of the French ship had been guilty of an act of piracy for which they were liable to be banged lap by any one who met with them. To make the thing more palatable, it was stated that the Spanish vessel was insured in London. Sir G. CLERK said that the GOvernment had received no other intelligence of the circumstance than that which the Ron. and•Learnell Gentleman had referred to. Mr. GOOCH presented a Petition from the Chairman' aid fifteen Magistrates of the . County of Suffolk, expressing thr satisfaction that the House had turned its attention to the inn' portant subject of the Game Laws. Ordere d to be printed. a Mr. MITANN presented a Petition from Penryn, praying remission of duty on Coals carried coastways. Mr. GRE N FELL trustetirthat,if the country.retnained, as he hoped it would, in a :state of peace for another year; the Chancellor .of the ExcheqUer Would. re mit this tax. Ordered to he printed. ' • AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a potion from the ' County of Kent, complaining of -Agricultural ,Distress, praying relief. Sir T. LETHBRIDGE expressed his hope that the House would attend to the prayer of the petition. Ordered to be printed: Mr. MAXWELL presented a pe tition from the si)ip owner' of Leith against the Stranraur Harbour Bill. Laid'oll the Table.. ,t, Mr. liEN.NDySC r T u igi . in JUI a Scotch Juries. Read a lust time, and ordered to -be rend a second time err IBTiIIES ior 'the regula tion of the sld of 31 aY• • ' 111r. - 111AXWELL moved fora return of the number of pe a t.- sons confined for debt in the prisons of Scotland, in the umbe e r of yr , . 1818, 1819, ltl2o, 1821, and . 1822 ; specifying the debts under 1/., under 2/., under Al., and under 201. • The LORI) ADVOCATE said he ha d no objection to the Motion, but should render the Ilon. Gentleman every AS"- ance in his power.—Ordered. ' : DIP,LO3IATIC P.A.PERS. -FordSTANLEY" rose to put a quest i o n to the Right IfOn. -Secretary for Foreign Affairs. In the No te of Sir W. A'Cottrr of the 9th 'of Deeember, in answer to M. San Miguel's applice- tion for the interference and mediation of this country, it did not appear what had been the conduct of the Government: There were passages left out in the co of the Note presented to the House, so that it only stated theyfact of such a come nication haring been made. l'here was another question which he intended to - have asked, las to the disavowal of all vievti_of aggrandisforent on the part of France ; but he saw mng. the documenti last presented; a paper -which disclaimed any .des of that kind, or of restoring • any thing in the form of a lan 1 "/ Compact. --,.. Dlr. Secretary 'CANNING said that the application men tioned by the Noble Lord, was not made tothe form of a note requiring Theerfrece, but consisted a verbal cowro. motion. an which this Gorinment had made, trvins that of transmitting . a dispatch to Sir C. Stuart, ivithin fo. Y; eight. hours of receiving the intelligence, with instructior.l to roake it tbe foundation of ma,rociations with the Frencr!_ Gayenurtent, and then of sending a copy of that die_ L t to Sir W. A`Court, to show how they bad acted. 1:114".. parts of the dispatch which had been kept out of , the t 1, 1 1 !_ pers. before the House, had no reference whatever to . I_,ls . subject. Upon the second " • t he Noble Vizi 113(1 question, le . sweredSimself. • . 'MISREPRESENTATION. o f or, Mr. V. FITZGERALD said, that he was desirous _ ._, recting kmiarepresentation which had appeared in wasseveral pith' lie prints relative to the, debate of' TuesdaY. lie s o the to have interrupted discussion upon that °erasion, w he r re, _ ~.., lion..Cientietuan opposite, who had called him to orde; F"f11 that he WAS '.iinxious to prolong it. This was a subject an that very much iffeeted his personal feelings and charade t u ,r et the s DJc therefore he had troubled the House with bringing back to their notice. ble Gen. 111 r. CALCRAFT said, that, the Right Honoors , lead owe, tlernart watt perfectly correct in the explanation he . )01364 and that he was not aWare of such a nustepeettea ttl ` been made. ,- . • TAX ON' COALS. ' Itairt is- Mr. Alderman W 001) presented a petition from ct l ~ _„,,,1 , ,, habitants of London and places adjacent thereto, III; I t i' vt l oc a a repeal of the Duty On Coals carried coastways. li e old give a that the Wit Hon.• Chancellor of the Exchequer w dss . ~ of pledge drat this Tax would be amongst the find ret i whi the public burdens. - supposed lir. flonitousu and Mr. Alderman DIIIVOES the petition, .' • • e that th I'hcCHANCELTIOR. of the EXCIIEVrt said, a, redaction. of situation of the country prevented. any no"• er ' n whale d taxes during the present The worthy Aldertris . 1 .n the errs to Ceye par. r' this 1 a be retinue( i n • a pledge that tax s tot _erg his coin ensuing,' ion ; but the same reason would pre% t o ned at Peac e : plying with that request. If the c ountry eon' o ies hoolo and the sante flourishintratate of the revenue recision ele 0 __. consider it his duty io i general-revist n of tai soaoas tion of the count ewith I , to bestg 6" with.' T..: - a VC% ' prepense the general interests of the country coiled (liei;r; bear!) The petition was ordered to be printed. • REFORII PETITIONS. e of I , lt oi e t r nt , Y ai d, sh A ff l h r i . v G , ooCll resented. p . a petition *mil t he. he --11. praying for Reform. Ti;e Honourable :Ile,' u, b , t he, uwsi:,"edbutult an d i o P t ru irg er Ho • ree in its P ra y. printed: ;_ pe . titions toyebre,..rcceireqr.or 1 0 be . • iro. . Mr:COKE presented the Norfolk petitiOn' pOsed by lli. Cobbett ) Petition was ca l°. Air 'M 1 T .CI . late „ • . ,t A. A% 1, ,It said, that this (The one 1 of Refonu. , e ci to prevent any one from supporting the cause . ,__ ~,e , 11 was surprised that such a Petition should have 1);Fe",..10, stinted upon 'the Prcsent occasion. Ile believed that tt l ot properly, effected, would be the salvation of the we reeonntr t o be t a t s!i t i principles as those contained in the Petition _ nro ctc u pod, they must lead to a u entire revolution in t i l t ): t t io rty and Constitution or the country.. lf, he' thong oi ly of such le Sentiments were entertained by any con would it u PloPle, away with Reform for hini---lie wool , ' "J . with 1 the means in hit' cower. w hi c h Ore"' Mr. 11. O,UHNEY described the meeting et He vie tion t was' carried, as having been most icspctamr,. sbetin, and as a spectator, and he saw Mr: Cobbett. the Iljtensteetog another Hon. Gentleman . , all three addressing ,t?,,, „ es tate 4 • the same and frein the contortions and viimeed..7,le was which hey , ey f used, and the confosion which previa . ,t . c .wo s w u e r r e—quite sure that no one of them knew that tht r i w t i v i r o i nt i. ‘r . e speaking. He described Mr. Cobbettlas 0 Writ e ' , that car' ad himself to all classN of readers-, in 3 Mann t Lb , yame ! hi t e persuasion with it to an extraordinary degr ee ? n . a it up witil ! time exaggerating that which W3l true, and illia.noit„o their };rest deal that was false. The , nombers who he ' ,60. and Minds ' those s 11 favour of the Petition he 'thought were ob°:!. 0 . 11 ) Otlereti as thew Pet ition of it might he 1209. le could novb c• of the County of Norfolk.' i The Petition Vas tl- . d Mr. COK ' 'en re'l , h id on e to,hie•t oupreo! in the Co L presentA four petitions from difteren ~,,,o , ott complaining 'if Agricultural I)istress. The lion% L a the • i he should not have spoke a word upon the 0 1, 3 6 fot t be petition which he had before resented, bad if not ilr i dleet' in.:awrksfit: his Hot. Friend (.11r.M. A. Taylor). ' i v p re , • eele't'linas e most respectable one lie had over seen, an it',, The g! were orderly until Mr. Cobbett began tn p o hell' hear e Pirconfiision then bemire so great t-11;4i,t, dl ,li ~,,I,f h. , .from Min at a few yards disvaite was - % ', I t t,l- , i' : , hes—l'll mi your b,Jllies."—(A biligh),--it W-4 that f' A l' r g' . titian of the county of Norfolk ;he was convinced . , , majority of that county would disclaim it. 4 To re th makellr. M. A. TAYLOR said, that he thaiOtt it i ,V lb .„, OM th( ' rentarks. he had submitteil, because 11,e It ere On' sentiments tihri ought to be reprobated whenever they „ , iv i l Mr. JAMES ros e to i s l a i y e • ia e r ia r t he er .w. not ore of t ' se 4 ol thought like the f Naosrfolk, that the hotity of deserved to be laughed at. He thought it did the I_,ctea -.‘t(!) lau g he d jfohh honour.--(A laugh..)--iirhen he rose be,,,l:a ho at but neither in nor out of that flous..ol7)i• the hear e d , any one who i could conravert the justice and truth A prples laid down in tl ' et . fr a" After a few words le Sire I ion. the 110 ~ ,e l e a ~., from C. Buniat.r., , •,.. L i t ioas ;Member, whose name we could not learn, the r ordered to be Printed. Oen it Mr, A BERCROMB Y gaid he - had a petition to Pr ent ; lit the City of Edinburgh praying a Rethrm in Parliam. t.ce oc .. Trom the lateness of the hour be should defer it to an_ ', l 4 o tioa casion, when if was his intention to give notice of a PPon the subject. Selkirk' POO; Ir. II1.33 : 1E presented a petition front 'Herorm. Ordered to be printed.. the f lun i Mr. Humid- prevented a petition ft'ornAaltur!„ tired of Humid- lin Norfolk, - i s ining fr o m it,.A to IP .tyari com p .. o r ooP. Distress, and disclaiming the County petition. ~ printed. • BociltW" Mr. G. RENNET d petition fron resented IL o r praying Refo ii n. Ordered to be printed. Le d $ p i i i Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON 're sell f t he from the Is/and of A • for titer toration ° ,„ on Hardie.' • nan, prayingptcOr f the E. , After a few words from 'the CiraXert.r.oll. O, quElt , the ite titian was ordered te lie on the i gl u lsltlf f 4cb EXAMINATION OF: THE IMJ OLT sh eenier hemp Sir FRANCIS BURDETT, adverting to _A. the Sh I Stood for to.ruerrow, to enquire into the condoct Pt '