The Sun. — London, England, 1812-12-09 00:00:00

th Ttoolu ibt =granting 00/. iq eb,se lands to-L': attached to the title of Welling ton; It Was oldeied that the ,llouse shoelld tow resolve `itself Coniinittee of . Ways ~.tint• - GM) COIN DILL. On the CHANCISLLOII.4Ofthe EXCHEQUER &toying the Order of the Day for the second readin ,, -of the Gold Coin Bill, Mr. WHITiIItAD moved that. certain Resolu tions of the House respecting the value-of . Bank Paper, as compared rvith gold, which were come to in the bullion discussion, should be read. The Resolutions were accordingly read by the Mr. CREEVEY,. with the view he had of the atrocity of this bill; could tiot allow it pass its se . cond without stating some of his objec , lions to it. This Act was one of the consequences of the 'Bullion Committee, appointed two years ago, to inquire into the high price of Gold. At that time it was said Gold was 41. 10s. the ounce. P fheßank Proprietors could not think of purchasing it till it carne down to their standard, which was 31. 17s. per ounce. These ,being the actual and the iklint prices of gold, Bank paper was at that pc- Ziod depreciated 15 per cent. Mr. Horner,. when • endeavouring to prove that Bank Paper was de preciated, brought.fOrward his nostrum, and pro '-posed 'that. the Bank shonld be compelled to • re sutYic its payments in specie two years: op- position to this, the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed his nostrum, which was a resolution, that in public estimation, one pound one shilling in Bank paper'was equal to a guiuca. When the Right Hon. Gentleman last session got this bill • renewed, declaring Bank paper and gold of equal "Willie; the price of gold was 4/. 14s. per ounce, and Bank paper :vas consequently depreciated. ,20 per. cent.. The Act now in force would expire text February, and the Right. Hon. Gentleman, Who had begun when gold was 41. 10s. per ounce, 'and got-the Bill renewed when it was 41. 14s. per ounce, brought forward again the smile measure 'when the price of gold that day was 51. ss. and the market in paper money and Bank paper. in consequence depreciated 33 per cent. It was at .this time, ander such circumstances,' , that the itig!it Honourable Gentleman,bad face enough to comegaavely forward with such a measure, and • .'Yen to appear surprised that a disposition should be found IA the House to disctisi, its propriety.— Before they proceeded farther, he wished to know • if.the Right Hon. Gentleman still thought gpld and, Bank paper of equal value ? The law de - eared them to beso . , and in conseqUence it 'vas ilot common for a person to enter a shop with, a • Bank note and a guinea, and say, how far will this ge, and how far this ? as he Ni , ho did sp would be secured and tried for a misdemeanour , but if the •law were repealed to-morrow, the difference •Nvould at once be seen; and found to be to the amount he had stated. From what had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other night, he -supposed he was rather shaken in . his opinion, when he found his ,Jew friend, or what ever he was, wanting 25.9 each for his guineas.— . -.lle did: not know what heavy guineas would '.fetch, but a friend of his 'a few evenings ago, bad' ,a few light guineas to dispose of, and, in his pre mice- be Sold them ; and to. a . man - a.;ho had to wake a profit-of them again, and feCe:,ved / 1./. 7s. 2d. for each. Did the Chancellor of the Exchequer inean to say the light guinea was better- than a .good guinea ? that the proprietor of the one should have such an ail:Vaatag - e oi',er the holder of the other ? 'ham was the proprietor' of the heavy guinea to be so persecuted, that 1 s must either hoard his gold or-part with his gainea far • seven shillings less than its ,value? Why was lie nit allowed to bring it,'as he might every other article of 1 . - 7iis property,. into the market, and sell it for ,w;:,1 - it it might be worth ? Ile then went ou to ..descant on the injustice of this Bill as it nice ,led the public creditors, and those who bad grunted long leases, as he contended these per :sons lost 35 per cent. of what they were entitled to, and he knew of no party benefited by it but the Bank Company.. They had been told in 1797, Tick to pay in specie ; and in 1511, they were told, Your paper is as good as gold, go mi.'' Th e y bad an ifiterest in keeping paper in circulation in stead of gold, and had divided among th em through_ it, in hard cash, six millions pounds sterling in bonuses. He wished the house to Soilsider the consequences of this system to the public Creditor and the Stockholder. The in creasing depreciation of Bank paper made him anxious that a new inquiry should be .made into the causes of the high price of the precious, me tals. He thought it was desirable that thellouse S110111:I pause before they again enacted this law, and consider it ; instead of this, they ought not to adopt an opposite line of cOncluct, starer this to expire, and repeal those laws which had been Made to give it effect. He thought it extremely improper to call upon the House to. pledge itself to this measure. It was also unnecessary, as there Would be sufficient time after the holidays, 'when many Members now absent would have an oppor tunity of being present. Under these circum tances, he would move that the _second reading "should be postponed till the 3d of February. Mr. BRAND spoke against the Bill, and con• - tended, that while gold was not allowed to pass lOr its value, it would be withheld by those who ossessed it. Heirepe , ,,ted and suppinled many of .the arguments urged by the last Speaker, *and as.:- 'zserted, high price of specie, and .depreciation of paper to be synonymous terms. This Bill had driven gold out of the market, when before, it came iii c.impetition xvith paper. If this were not passed, and the depreciation- of paper fairly acknowledged, gold, he had no doubt, would iodnlediately appear. He denied that the .Bank had gained aLI the advantages set forth s by the Hon. Gentleman {Mr. ,Creevey), and had no doubt, butlf less connected with the,Government, it would have ample Means of meeting all demands • -upon it. To the present Bill he must object at 'any time, but he thought to press it would be 'ost indecorous .at present. Lord A. Mott LTO N opposed the Bill, and td to .know if 'the depreciation of paper money was not now admitted, by what test Ministers would be content that should be tried The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER directed .the attention of thie House to the necessity of the iztettstire t o beforit them, tttcl made several ob servAtion's up,On its ciTigin. The idea-of a depreL T.ciation in the currency was, he remarked, .of an earlier' date than the Bitßion Committee, since ':'cord hang had introdueed the subject in the House of Lords, so far back as the year 1891, in the year - 1811, that Noble Person, Whoni he was ready, to ,acquit of 'any other intention than that of practically proving the justice - of ,his the ory, bad resorted to a step which rendered legis lative interference indispensable for -the protec7- tion of the tenantry of the Countr)h They had: also the evidence of Mr. Monek on the same side of the question, who said ne Nvotild not accept of paper at the Same rate of value as gold: The rea son of which was' obvious : Mr. Monck• was a coiner of local tokens, and for his purposes gold or silver was much more useful than paper: With regard to thepractical vestion, he pat it to any ' one-of-the Bullion Cominitteeto say if it would be wise to cause the Bank to resume its payments in specie 'at this period ; and if not, would it be expedient to pass a law, as they had' formerly proposed, to fix the resumption, of cash payments at any specific time, the circumstances of which they could not foresee ? He had, at that time, pointed out to a majority of the House, that lar rises in the price of 'the precious metals had taken place when there was no• paper currency_ at. all, and whet: there , was a paper 'currency con •yertible into its nominal value in money. This proved that the rise (lid not depend on the depre ciation of the paper currency. it was true,, as asserted on. the other, side, that gold had advanced ih Price within the last year, 'and the argument they s'vould draw . from this was, that the circula tion of paper had increased, and consequently its worth diminished., Now the case was not so,.and this tact afforded another argument in confirma tion of the fallacy of their reasoning. For his part, he found a sufficient cause for the rise..of goldju the vast augmentation of our foreign ex .penditure ; and'still more in the total interrupti on of the supplies of the precioas metals from South America, which in itself was . sufficient to account for the adVance upon those inettils in the market. The circumstances of the 'prescut year were also somewhat remarkable. After, the de bates of last Session, the price of bullion remain ed for some time pretty steady ; but of late it had risen suddenly to the extent stated by the Hon. Gentleman opposite. It had so risen on the open ing of the intercourse with Russia, -whence an ex-, cessive.demand had occasioned a. similar rise all over Europe. The nostrum of the Bullion Com mittee was to resume paynients in, cash ; but where was it to be got? The, mines of America were stopped, and the balance of trade was -against us with every other couotry'. It appeared then., that we must either have sacrificed our po litical prospects, withdrawn our army from tilt Continent, and have Furnmdel'ed the hopes of Eu rope, or we must, for the present, have coratinued , the Bank restrictions. Happily for • our charac ter, honour, and greatness, the latter alternative had been adopted. The Right Ilo!:ainrable (len tleman then went into a justification ofbisresolu tions.recorded last Session, an i contended.that the paper of the Bank of England was,, for all legal purposes, equivalent: to coin ; though ceilainly not so to those wi n o wished to melt it down, or make it the stilaject of foreipt trade, which, how ever, was, a•ad bad long been, contrary to the. laws of, the land. Could it have been possible to enforce theae penal laws vigilinaly and perfeetly, - gold would have had no other value than. paper of the same denomination, and the only difference. .between them was, that the one could be con- Verted into bullion, the other could not. The anomaly of light guineas bad been much animad a . Verted on, but this was 'no new case.; ahem !were abundant instances in our history of ,light ,guineas being- more valuable than standard coin, long before the Bank restrictions . were ever thought of. The enormous protts •of the Bank bad also been dwelt upon : to this he would bear : testimony, that the Bank was an an- 7 willing party to those Measures whence the pro fits accrued, and which wore forced upon 'it by the :Government of the country. The.Baak had ever. evinced a desire to be released from these -restric tions, and the preparations it made for resuming payments in specie were a sufficient proof of its readiness so to do, When it could he permitted consistently with the public good. The practical ' question now was, whether the period had come, when they could'safely give up the safeguards that had' been imposed for the preservation of our me tallic currency, aad to protect the public gene rally from individual vexation and opKession,? All that the public wanted was to go on quietly with the currency they were used to ; -but this, it was in the power of any one to disturb, unless the I present law passed to - protect debtors from "the exaction of payments in a medium, which it was out of their power to obtain. The act had arisen out of the provocation of one. individual, but for whom they might have. been quiet yet, and the necessity for the law never have been raised. It .was now absolutely indispensable to. protect the subject from grievous oppression and he submitted that there were stronger reasons for its continuance , than even for its being originally passed. Mr: PoNsoausy expressed his surprise at some of the positions advanced by the Right• Hon. Gen tleman, and at his persevering to recommend the continuance of a law which directly contradicted , his own resolutions. To chew: this, he contend ed that if paper was equivalent to gold, as stated in' the third resolution, there could be no ground for this act to declare that which was undeniable.a-4' • But if a pound note and a shilling were equiva lent to a guinea,' how came it to be necessary to prohibit a landlord from insisting on his tenant paying him gold ) Ile could not comprehend how it was passible, for the Right Hon. Gentlemari to advance aa assertion of this sort, amid to say he had no doubt of this equivalency. Had it' soh— sisted at all times; or did, it, subsist now? Would a man give a guinea for a pound mote and 'a ling How then could it be said they were equiva lent ? But there was no difficulty before the de preciation existed, , and therefore he maintained "that the resolution was false. The Right Hon. Gentleman had attributed the difference to the. non-importation of gold' and silver from South America"; but this, if true, would apply equally to all Europe. Would the Right Hon. Gentle,. riiaM say tbai tiie priee.F.dd risen 3 i P-er cent in France, as it l aid done in this cbutittv, Or that , fidid oure the sure protichil)ll to die French Bank I paper which it did to on r s ? But it was equal for all lawful piirpose4—of this there was no test, and I they could not i•esor.t to cse produee it. He Contenlidedthattheß li of last tittssion was in troduc-'- ed to protect the reolution, and:it all events, could I see no reason for-pressingthe present billat this thne. He wished to knOw what preniuni was paid by Go nicht transmitted to the Continent ; : and aSked the Chancellor of the Excherwer across the ta'ile tci furnish bias with this information, which repest not being comp!ied with, he com plained in rich Of the ;hence inl:ut:iined on the sub , jec.l. then wila4 - . was • the reaso.r of the scarcity of change, and the disanpearguce of small silver,. coin 'lhi:Oughoat the country ? lie B believed that even the private , til , .er's in 'London were 'obliged to ply for acconnno , !aCon in this re:- spect, ant that toe Bank of Ea , :;land had told them they could be supplied as htnTtofore with silver currency. Did. t;;e Right Hon. Gentleman pro pose that this' state of things shouldlast, anA that no inquiry should be allowed till the Act was cram med doWn the throat of the New Parliament ? Such conduct was inde.cent and mischievous, and he, .for these reasons,. concurred heartily in the AMendinent that had been moVed. MANNINc Anticcd that the supply of change had been • di3continued for 3everal week by the • Bank, on account of the step put to the a mporta-, tion of,dollars from South Awrica; .but to slicw bow much, had been done, he stated, that Avithin the last 15 months aterly two millions had been actually isSmed in this way by, the Bank. About a week , ago the Directors had given orders for further issues, and wore, as they ever had been, innst desirous to accommodate the public, in so far as was possible, from the quantity of salver in the market% Ile then adverted to the paper in cir culation', and_ as the returns were not yet before the House, informed them. that the Bank notes in circulation yesterday;evening, amounted to only 22 millions and a half. In July 1812, the amount was 25 millions ; three of which, however, had lain act the'drawers of country bankers, to pre serve them from sinking under the pressure of the times, and by December of the same year, was returned to the Bank—and thus the circulation again reduced... From , this: it was evident, that the depreciation allege(:, 'conld not be attributed to any excessive circulation of :the paper of the Bank. He also defended the Bank from the charge of profusion in their discounts, and issu • ing money for their own profits. The Bill was 'neither wished for by the Gc.,ernment, •or the Bank, which wished no other protection for their notes than the Confidence of the people. It was rendered necessary by the measnre tak...n by the Nobleman already so often alluded to. By the Restriction I3iii of 1797, the Landlord was pro tected, but the Tenant left to vexation and op pression. His effects might be taken for non payment in a coin he could by no means procure, and when sold,. the same cause operating, and purchasers being .refused who could not buy with gold, his stock would be disposed of infinitely under its real value. Was not such a' case ,of hardship to be guarded against ? Ile Would cer tainly give the Bill his support, for it such an cx amii!c as he had mentioned, were to be followed, or to be• left possible by the law, the-utmost con fusion and distress would be the result. Mr. TholiNTolsr supported the opinions ad vaiic.ed by the ihiltion Coiumittee, and was in fa vour of opening-the Bank provisionally, at a spe cific period. I.le acknowledged it would be harsh. to limit their issues, if the exchanges could be rectitied,, and the price of gold otherwise diminish .ed. He•then proceeded to point out the advan tages to the eonunimity arising out Of greater is sues. It gave ease to speculation, and to the furnishing of loans and raising money for the 'public. It. also favoured borrowers, though it pressed hard upon real property, and taxed those who were possessed Of capital, by decreasing their interest.. It was injurious to landlords, and in, favour of the farmer, through whom it became of. advantage to the . country. .It was also beneficial to tire .nation in 'paying its -annual twenty-six or thirty millions .to the National Creditors.— Ile agreed that the rise of. gold was in a con-' siderable, degree owing to the circumstances of the world, and the state of our force on the Pe niuula but the principle of the current medium was as much an invasion of real prOperty as if the Government actually took so much from the Proprietors. .We were getting into a paper cur rency, without reference to the corresponding va lue and test of the precious metals. He had thought that, when they got to 30 per cent. of depreciation, GentleMm would be alarmed, but: nothing would have that &Sect. He profess'ed he did "not want any 'sudden remedy to he. attempted in the present.vibrating state of Europe, and was willing to wait, the probability of, the opening of the .Continental markets. On the subject of local tokens, he asked, how the circulating medium would be supplied Were they put a - stop to.? and cOneluded by stating, that he was willing to suf, ter the . Bill to pass, thongli he would rather have wished- farther time had been allowed to recon sider Mr. \sr. KEInt4E thought, tlit if the present state'of Europe were duly considered, the I-louse would agree with him ia `liinking, that not been for the Bill, we should never have been able to continue our ope'rations on the Continent. On this ground . therefore -he would support the Lord FOLKESTONE thought that there.was great cause for the House to consider • weir before they agreed - finally to concur in the measlse now pro posed, to them ; and that 'particular attention should be paid to what -regar(!ed Local Tokens; before this Bill was passed. However, upon (lute consideration of the, circumstances of the case, he proposed, that the Bill Should be allowed to pass for a lituitod time ; and thus, that after the Christ, nuts recess, Parliament might •again consider the matter more fully,, particularly what related to the . state •of the currency, besides-the other .matters connected with the..l3a On this ground he wish- ed that his 'jolt.- Friend (Mr. Cre-ve-) had drawn his Amendment. ' • , After a few words from Mr. HuAisson, which -‘l7e could not distinctly hear, Mr. CAsEvEY wished to know, before the goes tion was PO, ‘iibether Miritsferi would accede to the proposal of his . Noble Friend, and agree to have the Bill passed for a shirt period ? • . Lord CASTLEREAGH said; thdt several branches Of the present question must remain for discussion or some future Occasion; but teas not &rare of any circumstances which could possibly happen iVithin the linited period which hid been meni , tiOned : that . could tend to render the present rhea.; sure unnecessary. Mr. WI-HTBIMAD thritight that there should lA, More valid reasons assizned for the measure note in question, than any wide') had been given- by the Riga - H i. Gentleman (the Chaucellor ofthe.i• Exchequer). In fact, the Right Hon. Gentle man had rimed the questions :vhich had been put to him, and-in.-giving his reasons for pressit!'g the • measure nnw in question, had evaded any satis= factory statement, by entering into getunsal de tails. He Wished to reduce the Right Hon. Gen= tlen-ein ad verecrfitdia6, to make him ashamed of ,his having- been the means of having an Act .pass ed in direct opposition to a resolution 01 the Haase. With regard to that part of the Act which went • to." protect the tenant against the berilord, on this matter he wished to vindicate the notch injured author of the impoytant ques tion on this subject (Lord King). The proposal of Lord King was not, as it had been represented, as inhuman oardship, by calling on the tenant td pay his rent in gold, which it . was not possible for hint to procure. What Lord King wanted was a stun in Bank notes equivalent to the bul lion price of gold which he had calchlateir Lord Kilo , s was not the only- man who had this' in. con templation., He (Mr. Whitbiead) knew many other landed proprietors. who were inclined to adopt the same measure ; and' their_ reason was this, that the tenants had long leases, mid at toe time that. these leases were granted, the rent was proportioned to the value which the produce of the land bore, to the value of gold. So that the the value of gold having increased ; it was but just, .that it .the rent was not. paid in gold, it should be made in a sum in Bank notes equiva lent to the market prke of gold. Lord King had reason and law on his side, and yet the law pro ceeded te) do him violence. As to public estima tion, nothing could be more ludicrous than the proposition stated by the Chance'lor of the Ex cheqtier. lie (Mr. Vansittart) bad maintained, that in all the ordinary transactions of life; a Bank note and a shilling, were equivalent in public estimation to a guinea. He would just propose to the Right Hon. Gentleman to go to a shop, and if having bought a quantity of goods of the value of a Bank - note and a shilling, and in payment he should offer a guinea to the sopthan, •he would fiad that 'in consideration of being paid in gold, the shopman would not give him. an ad ditiOnal five shillings-worth of goods. He thought that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had totally failed in his illustrations. He entirely differed from those Gentle Men who had said that a Bank note was more valuable than a guinea, because nobody would hoard or bury a Bank note in case of an invasion or any such Calare.ity. • This was a very fallacious argulnent. An lion. Gentleman (Mr. Keene)'had argued as if ibis Bill had been the Means of enabling us to'carry on our opera tions on the Continent. 'But he begged to recal to -the - recolleetion of the House, that this Bill was not enacted until the end of 1811. The. mea sure now in 'agitation was exactly similar to that of Robespierre in France. Robespierre had en acted that no goods should brought to market above a certain price. The consequence was, that no-goods appeared. This law enacts, that no 'gold shall be sold above a certain price.; the consequence, of course, - is, that all the gold appears. • The whole system will come to its own , extinction ultimately, unless stopped in it's pro gress. Prom the first he had been averse to the Bill, because, besides its idany glariitt defects, it tended to defeataits object. He would again ask, whether any guineas had by any means, or by any connivance, been bought on "account of Govern ment ? An Offer had been acknowledged to have been made to Government of a number of guineas for sale: and this oder having been made, shews that the impression on the public mind is, that Government will ultimately be obliged to act coil - trary trary to their ow laws. y Had any guard. of a mail-coach, or any such person, been deteeted.in .any such practices as that swhich the Right lion. Gentleman had stated as having come within his own knoWledge, he would have been proceeded against with the utmost rigour of the law. The Right 'Hon. Gentleman, however, had acted in a very innocent and !meatless way, diy not putting the law in force against- 'the person who had of-,• fered the guineas to him for sale. Until gOid should find its proper value, no gold would ap pear ; when•gOhl did find its proper value, it would be had. in abundance.. It . might as well be ex pected that St. Paul's' should stand without a foundation; as that public credit should exist with out metallic credit to support it. Although he Considered the proposal of the Noble Lord (Folke stone) as a bad one; because tending to give a bad precedent, that they who fundamentally opposed the Bill thonld consent to its being passed for a limited •thne, yet, considering the peculiar. cir-s stances of the case, he would agree to divide the House upon it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEGLI7EA .explained. He again positiVely refuted tho assertion. that Government did at any,time employ persons to purchase guineas for them. He also said, that the last price paid by Government for bills to the Continent was 67 pence per mil rea. After a few words from Lord CASTLEREAGH, Mr. CANING thought the ptinciples of this Bill Nft re . opposite to every principle of political ecOnouty ; but that the necessity for it which did now exist, arcse from the measures which had been adopted. on, a former occasion.' His Vigil: Hon. Friend (Mr. Vansittiart) had stated,•that in point of public estimation, a Bank-note •aitd a shilling were equivaient to a guinea, when, iu point of fact, it was well known that at that•very time a guinea sold for, 255. At that time -he thought that Government would be obliged to hale recourse to legal force to establish whet Vras• called the public estimation ;- and this was ful filled in a, few . months, by Government being obliged to have recourse to t tir present Bill. The Bill was divided into two parts ; what regarded 'the payment'of Bank-notes, and the o.her part,