The Sun. — London, England, 1812-04-11 00:00:00

at the latter end of Sir Robert Walpole, there .xere more of such officers than at Present. On the other no 'could say that the influence of the Crown, out of the two Houses of Parliament, and thronghout the country at large, had not increased,, and to an alarming extent. But that he conceived to have.-no application !o the. question. The mea sure of trequently dissOlving Parlia.nents, of which two striking instances had lately occurred, was in his mind, a proof of what ire- advanced. Itistend-of reducing the influence of the Crown, the proposed measure would go to increase it ; and upont this plain principle, that places iri , posgession, and hos more frequently following them, if grants were. made-in s reversion, the Crown would evidently have the more places to distribute. But what, he would .ask, was the object of the. grant of a few offices in reversion, to a people under the pressure of .an ex penditure.of 80 millions? It only tended to deceive and mislead the people, and to turn their ittention . _ aside . from ohjeas of great and momentous impor tance. He thought the subjca. was too often and unnecessarily agitated, and un":!er that impreSsiOn he -would support the amendment. . The Earl of DARNLEY, in sunport of the ameud rnent, 'reminded the .Noble Lords, thlt the mea,are did not exclusively apply io Members -of both' Houses of Parliament. The- praaice of . granting places in reversion was, he deemed, a monstrous abuse, and he therefn - e felt it his daty to vote for an extension_ of the time for plohibiting the pratlice. Earl GREY was of opinion also that the subjed was agitated much too often, boa-on many points he \ differed widely from his Noble Friend (Lord L.) prairtfui as it - was so. to differ from him. He con ceived the measure in questioo, on the ground and principle of an economical reform, to be of great im portance to the country, as making a part of such a 'proposed system, and evincing to the country the principle hv which the Legislature was aetuared.-.- Nri:lier did In - ifm.k the amount of the offices even ' tually to be atlclaed by WM be such a stpall consi _ deratiori. et. of those ,offices alone produced to their possessors opvdat'ds of sixty thousand pounds per annum. This immense increase was owing to various circumstances, from an increase in the re venue, and ap e . xt,insion of the scale of the -expen tilillie, and front other causes not foreseen at the time. By the granting such offices in reversion, as _ • Iliad been the case, it was out out of the power of, Parliament to regulate them, and this was one of the most material paints of viewin which the sub , jest could b.:: regarded. With resped to his Noble Friend's s e ntiments as to the diminution of the in fluence 'of the Crown, he was too accurate an ob server not to be aware that; upon the whole, the in fluence of the Crown had greatly and enormously increased, and that it was their duty to, lessen that influence and expenditure, where practicable, the better to enable and to reconcile the country to bear. prat expenditure in those great. masses, where it was impossible to reduce it. Could the. army or navy be reduced in the present situation and circum stances of the Country, as relative to'France, Or to continental Europe ? Could even the revenue be • - -diminished in the present circumstances of the coun try ? In the view of prospetitive - economical form, he would rest his support of the Bill, as bold ing out promise, and he hoped a pledge to the people of 'England, that they would endeavour to al leviate their burdens as far as it was praelicable.— He could by n.O means subscribe to his Noblp Friend's position, that the measure would go to in c+ ease instead of diminishing the influence -of the Crown, as-did the - option remain, places could in of - tett be granted boll) in possession and teversioo.— Upon the whole, the measure of she amendment, not only' in point of principle, bast as far as it went, in point of eronornical reform, had his entire and cor- dial support. Tree Earl of LAUDERDALE spoke in explanation. The Earl of LIVERPOOL did not deem it necessary to dwell upon the priecipie of a measure upon which coos , of their I.,4dshipa - seemed to entertain one sena timent. A few words, in consequence of the Amend men proposed by the Nobble Earl, he thought it neces sary, to offer. In the first place, the Amendment_ was not the case of one in furtherance of the objet of the' Bill, by any improvemeirt of its provisions ; it was, on the contrary, in direa counteraaton of the which the Commons had sent up to that House. The real question before them- was, whether, with reference to certain proposed or pending measures, it were advi'sable'to continue a 'suspension of the power in question for a limited time, and with "a re ference to the objeas for which those measures were proposed. It went to a prohibition of reversi onary grants, for two years, by that means leaving the general subjea of which it formed a part open to the future consideration and regulation of Parlia ment. To extend the prohibition, ttlerefore to an interval of near thirty years, would be to render the Bill a mockery,,with resped.to the real objea of its introdudion. the. question was not one of on, but of suspension. He' felt much relieved by what fell from a Noble Earl, w ith.resped to the extent of the benefits to be derived (tont the mea sure in point of adual saving—they were so trivial and insign,iticant as not, comparatively, - to be wor thy of serious consideration. On the subject of in fluence touched upon by the Noble Earls, it was one on which he had occasion to make much in quiry, and from the' fatis which had come to his knowledge, he could confidently aver, that the num ber of offices held by Members of both Houses of P.lrliarnent did not amount to one halt of what it was thirty years ago. It was not with regard to offices,alonb, but a species of influence existed with • respell to Parliament, which now he maintained - did not exist at all. But it was said, the influence of the Crown had greatly increased throughout the country, from the gneat and unavoidable increase of the estab , ishments, particularly of the military and naval. 01 the extent of this it was impossible, with out much and deliberate calculation: to form any thing like a true opinion. But though the - army and avy had increased in a proportion of four 'or live fOld, compared to former times of war double that ompared to the former peace establish ments-.—yet he could say with truth, that notwith standing upon the whole', the extent of influence accruing to the Crown from- these establishments, was infinitely less now than at those former periods. Lei the principle upon which those things latterly proceed be considered. In former times officers were aduallyrdistriissed from their situations on account of t I,e r political condu6. Such were the cases of the great Lord Chatham, and of the Duke of Argyll, who .were dismissed for oßpoSing the Administration of Sir Robert Walpole. He was ready to declare that, if any Noble Lord examined the subje6t with csndour, he would find that 114 influence of the Crown, in these respects, now, was considerably less than at former periods";-, Nu °Web principle prevailed of late years ins induced the dismissal of any officer on A ccount of his politacal condutt.Though personal friendship and political attachment had naturally, some weight in point of Seletlion, yet 1 - t - would be fotind there were as many persons in the service, connected with those who opposed the Execrative Government, as-of those who supported They had.arriVed at that state of 'the world, and the circumstances of the country were such, that the obligation was iinperatit eof makiwz choiCe only of suck persons as were most likely to serve tlieir coun try with eireal. There never existed a period when the feelings of partiality in selea.on were less predo minant. It dittnot necessarily follow that the in cr6ase-of Influence was in proportion to the increase of the - establishment. This, when it arrived to a certain extent, from the very nature of things, less ened, instead of increasing the means of influence. - With respe6 - 1 to the measure under consideration, it did not bear on the question `of influence In the way. some Noble Lords seenied to conceive. With a view to influence, it would evidently be an object of the Crown to have its offices not held for any length of time, or granted in reversion to ;ndividuals, but held by theM solely during its, pleasure. 'The grant of offices in reversion or remainder, placed the grantees in a certain degree Of independence on th. Crown, and so far diminished its influence. The real ques lion on that part Of the subjea was„ whether the system of those gr.ints were advantageous to the - state. in an enlarged view of the subje&, or. otherwise, by affording a means of rewarding great,and transcend ant merit, and stimulating the exertions of individu als in the service of the SOte. Vpon_itie whole, he was induced to support the Bill as sent up by the C,,m mons, as it wduld leave the question toll; at issue to the future consideration and regulation of the Le gislature. - The Earl of MORTON conceived the honour of the House was implicated in'the present question, and ar4ued strongly against the 'amendment; as propos ing an interval to all probability beyond the extant of the present reign. An important and lott esta blished prerogative'of the Crown was in question ; and in a constitutional point of view, the Royal prerogatives were of as much importance as. the pi i vileleS of either Hou'se of Parliernent. Under the present circumsiances, it was perhaps incumbent up on the House to regard these prerogatives with a more than ordinary degree of attention. They shritaid recollect and consider the peculiar circumstances under which the Crown 'was pldced. The Royal pserogative4 could not be - touched without the assent, solemnly express.. -d, of the Sovereign on the throne. That assent could not be now .so colleded. The Royal prerog atives were now placed in theihands °fa tfustee, in trust for the Sovereign, and he trusted these prerogatives would be exercised, as they had been for firry years, iA.-isely, moderately, and benefi cially ftlr the realm. The measure in question, if agreed to as proposed, and carried up to the Illustri ous person who exeicised 'the regal powers, would go-to place that Illustrious Personage in a specieg of diletnma.—The* Noble Earl Was proceeding, when Earl GREY and Lord HOLLAND rose together to speak to a question of order; and the butt' Peer proceeded : and asserted, that as 'far as he under vont' the- Noble Earl, - he went neatly as fir as to allege, there was at present no Consinunon in the countrv., The introduaiun of the topic adverted to by the Noble Earl, he considered as disorderly. He submitted to the House, whether the use of such ar guments could consistently be suffered. The EArl of MonToN,. in explanation, expressed his belief, that what he said was perfectly in order. He meant not to deny that the Illustrious Person al l'uded to. possessed the power of giving or withhold ing the Royal- Assent ; but with respect to the clear and undoubted prerogatives of the Crown, he deem ed it the duty .of that Illustiions Person to preserve • them in such a state as to be able to restore them to the King and Sovereign in as perfea and undimi nished a state as he had received them. Lord HoLLAsrs spoke in explanation, 34 to the point of order: he, then proceeded shortly to com ment on the measure in question. Cif this he did not seem to approve. He thought it would be bet ter to come to a dec i sion, either to set the practice wholly aside, or not, to agitate it, in the way now brouOit CorWaid, which he tegarded as a species of ad caplandara v ulgus! • • .1 he question was put, -and the Amendment of GRost'rEbtoa v‘s . tiegatived Without a division'; and the Bill being agreed to by the Commitiee, the „House resumed, and rectived the Report". After which their Lordships Adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. FIUDAY, APRIL 10. On the motion of Mr. G. MILLs, a Committee was - appointed - to search the Lords' Journds with resped to ihtir LordShips' proceedingS . on the Irish Infirmary and Court-house . Mr. InviNG, florn the laspector'-General of Ex ports and Imports, • prosented an Account of the Wheat, Barley, and Oats, itnuorted in the last year. Ordered to lie on the' table. Mr. FOSTER, from the Trustees of the Liverpool Dock Company, presented an Account of .their Re ceipts and Disbursements for thela3t year. Ordered to lie on ibe table. 'Mr. BEST, from the Bank of England, presented an Account of the number of Persons prosecuted ft:r Forging and 'Uttering Forged Bank Notes, for - 14 years, prior to ►he restriction on cash payments in 1797. , Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. JoiiNSON, from the Office of Chief Secretary For- Ireland, presented an Account, of the total amount of. the Funded Debt of that country: Ordered to lie on the (able. The Legal Quays Bill went through a Committee (Sir 'W. Curtis in the Chair), the report of which was ordered to be received on Monday. On tie motion of Mr. WHARTON, it was order ed that the House•at its rising should adjourn to Monday. The West Auetion Duty Bill went through a Committee, the report of which was ordered tv be received on Monday. Inconsequence of some informAty, the Order made recently for the produttion of the correspond. ence between the President of the Board of Controul end the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the East India Company . , relative to their Charter, was (on the motion of General Gaq:oigrie) di.charged; and a new Order made to the following etreti " That there be laid before the House Copies of ail Cor respondence that has taken place between the President and cOirmiis - sioneits — for the Affairs of India, and the Chaiiihan and Deputy Chairman of the Court of Diredors of the East India Company ; together with the Nlinutefi of the Court of Di redors relative to , the reneval of their exclusive privileges; as laid before the Proprietots of India Stock on the 26th 141 a rch last." Mr. CREEVEY,gave notice, that on Yhursd.ty next he woold•subEnit to the House curtain Resolutions respettittg the two. Tellorships of the Exchequer, held by the Marquis of Buckiughatn and Earl Cann . . A- Message from the Lords announced their Lord ships assent to the Itish Militia A& Amendment Bill, the Irish Willa Families Bill, &c. The Honourable Mr. BENNBTT gave notice, that on Wednesday he would submit to the House a motion on the subject of corporal punishments in .the army.. SCARCITY OF CRAIN. Mr. CURWEN, seeing a Right 'Hon. Gentleman in his place, felt compelled however reluctantly, to call his attention to a subject of the first national importance. He said reluctantly, because he ,was aware that to excite any alarm in fi! country with respect to provisions, was to incur ,no slight re sponsibility ; and nothing but an imperious sense of duty could induce him to do soon the present occa= sion. He was persuaded, that the Rtht Hon. Gen tleman would do him the justice to acknowledge that, at the latter end of laSt year, he believed in Odober, he had stated to the Bight Hon. Gentle man,that from the observations which he had bren enabled to make in an extensive country circuit, it was his firm convietion, that the crop had been de fieient, and that the .e'irliest measures should be adopted to prevent the evils which might otherwise, He now again entreated the attention of the Right Hon. Gentleman to this subject. An alai m ing advance had taken place in the price of grain throughout the island., In various places, and parti cularly'in:the county which he had the honour to repre.ent; this advance liad occasioned very serious disturbances, in which some lives had already been lost, and'in which others might possibly be also lost, if no steps were taken to:remedy the grievance.-- While he..stated this, he must express his belief that there was still grain sufficient for the neces sities of the country.if properly managed; but if the.same supineness which Government had hitherto exhibited. with respe'a to the agricultural interest _were to continue," the greatest evils might arise. What he most dreaded was, that the price of pain should become so high as to press severely on the lower orders of the'people, who ought, if possible, to be pioteded from such a dreadful calamity. He calculated ',that twenty weeks must elapse before any supply of new grain could be expected, and he thought it possible, by the adoption of a very simple measure, to saye the consumption of three of'these 20 weeks, which, taken at 200,000 quarters a week, , -would amount to a savinv, of 600,000 qrs. This measure was the renewal of the ct t , t - 0 Geo. 111. ch. '6, by which it was provided, that flotir shOuld be made only of one qmdity, instead of three qua lities. Taking the Winchester Bushel at sixty pounds, the loss by grinding three qu aities of Hour was not less than nine pounds a bushel. Now, he apprehended, that by taking out a less quantity of bran, a flour perfectly wholesome and nutritive would be obtained, and a saving of five pounds effected in eve), Winchester Bushel. Therti was another consideration too, namely, that flour of this kind would not be applied to any luxurious prepara 7 lions, but would be exclusively confined to the mak ing of bread ; a circumstance which might justify the anticipation of saying another week on the whole consumption. There could be but one feel ing in— the f-louse on this most important subject. It was no - party question ; he had done his duty in calling the attention of the Right Hen. Gentleman, and of Parliament, to it, and he trusted that some .measures would speedily be resorted to, in Lrder to prevent the dangerous consequences that, might otherwise ensue. The CHANbELLOR of the EXCHEQUER bid no difficulty in admitting - that the Hon,. Gentleman did, at the close of the. last year, state to him, in the strongest manner, the apprehensions which' he en tertained of an apprOaching scarcity. - But he could not help thinking, that when the Hon. Gentleman now allowed, that whatever might be the scantiness of the last harvest, there was no reason to fear. any thing like famine, it was notvery candid in him to talk of the supineness of Government with respect to the agricultural interest. As far as any criminal su pineness, of a date antecedent to the first expressions of alarm on the part of the Hon. Gentleman, might be suppo , ed to attach to Government, all he could say, was, that it certainly was not manifested in the proposition made to Parliament, to adopt a measure by which the distiller would have had the option of chusing the mate' ial from which he would produce his spirits. This proposition, made by, him self (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), was distinct.' ly rejemed by - Parliament, -how, wisely or net, it would be presumptive in him to say ; and 'then at the close of that very year the Hon. Gentleman came forward with his appreh tn....0i1s of scarcity. At the. time when those appreln.ns:ons - were expressed, it was however by no means a genet:illy conceded point that the haivest had been dele4live. The statement Made yesterday by the Hon. Gentleman, that if every acre could be made to produce - two addi tional bushels, any fear of scarcity must disappear, was certainly vety true ; but really unless it were accompanied by another statement, that an Aa of Parliament could excite this increased fertility, it ap peared to him to be vety useless. With regard to the present suggestion of the Eton. Gentleman not haviog-had any notice on the stibjea, it could not be expeaed them he should be prepared at once to adopt or to reject it. But, unquestionably, the im mediate impression on his mind was adverse to the proposition ; recolleaing, as he did, th a t parlia mentary regulations on such a subje& had never produced any other effe& than to occasion mis chief instead of benefit , ntid that there was no greater evil than that which might possibly ac crue from any Meddling with the article of _food on the part of the Legislature. The very at, the renewal of Which was advised by the Honour. abtq Gentleman, had hadly wisp& before the im possibility of, carrying it into execution was disco. vered. Indeed he bad long been fully satisfied of the fallacy of all attempts of that nature, and there fbre tie trusted that the House would not attribute the -absence of Government from recommending the adeptior of any measures, or the appointment of any Committees vn the subject, to inattention, or an. in4, , spc,sition to resort. to any practical and use ful remedy, if sod) could be, discovered, He per fectly agreed with the Honourable Gentleman, that this was not a question of patty feeling. High and low,:rich and poor, must feel a deep concern in it: It was plainly the in;crest of all to do away an evil of such magnitude as a scarcity of food, if it could be accomplished, The consideration of Parliament had already indeed been so far called to the subiec . , as i'ca induce the suspension o f the exportation 'to toteiga p9rts of spirits distilled from grain in Ireland. 'roe efficacy of stopping the distillation from grain in Ire' land was under tile deliberation& Government. This last was certainly a subjectof much doubt; for were the legal diStillation put down, an illegal distillatiod wonld probably arise, occasioning a great waste ef . grain and thus diminishing; notthe consumption of ibat article, but the revenue alone; and though no ode would for a moment put the preservation of tl revenue in competition jti point of importance v.i:ll the preservation of food for the' people, yet if tl diminution of the revenue were not to be 'accom— panted by an increase of food, it was evident that an accumulated pressure would be brought upon the country, since it would be necessary to provide for that deficiency of revenue by some increas , d im post in another quarter. He gave the Honourable! Gentleman credit for the best motive Sand the most patriotic feelings, but he really apprehended - that the agitation of such topics tended rather to augment tie evil which it was meant to repress. Mr. CURwEN entered into a short explanation, in which he stated, that. by letters which - he bad ghat morning - received, he learned that corn had risen 30,. a gOartcr in the county of Cumberland. He gave: notice that on Monday t:e would move tor au in quiry into the state and price of wain. Galdstnid's Debt Liquidation Bill went through a Committee, the report Of which was ordered to be received on Monday. • • IRISH MILITIA OFFICERS.. Sir J. Nmoar wished to krrow how the Offi cers of the Irish Militia were to be released from this payment of the -Property taxi That 'tax was stin exaeled from them, and they complained rely hea fly of the hardship. Mr. Secretary , RYDER replied, that mean: for re lieving•the Irish Officers from the lur_lier operati.,rt of the tax were in progress, laud that orders had been given to refund the sums which they had al ready paid. Sir J. NEWPORT observed, that the Right Hon. Gentleman had,. many months ago, -pledged self, M that this tax sh ou ld not be exacdfrom the Officers of the Insh England. Mr. RYDER denied haVing e“:r gym such . a pledge. Sir-J. NEWPORT said, that it W3i tben his Right Hon. Colleague. The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER difSClalfflvd ever having pledged himself, that the °dicers of 11-e Iri,h Militia should be ielieyed If-nib-the property tax, but as with telerence to their pay. It had been some thne in contempla!ion, whether or not i: was necessary to bring fot,ward a measure, in ord:r to protect them from paying in this country the. tax; . to which-they were liable in Ireland. Mr. W. POLE soled, that the case wai as fol. lows : Up to. the present period the tax -had been charged on the pay of these Officers, but from this' time the pay would be issued to them without any After a few words from Sir G. HILL and Lord FOLKESTONE, the conversation (which we cottld,but imperfectly heal), was dropped. , GOLD COIN BILL. The order of the day having been read (or the , House to resolve itself into a Committee on the' Gold Coin Bill, ti 1110 CHANCELLOR of theExcisßoairm moved that.' the House should then resolve itself into the Cotn • mittee. Mr. PARNELL rose to move, as an amendment, to postpone the further proceedings on the Bill tors fortnight, with a view to ascertain the sense of the House on the expediency of appointing a select Com mittee to inquire into the state of the current .: its Ireland. Select Cominittees had been appointed at various times to inquire into this subject. TaO repOrt of a Committee appointed in 1794 was, that the Bank of, Ireland had only 6 or 700,0001. wort ft of paper in circulation, and that the rate of ex change bet Ween Great Britain and Ireland, was six aed three - quarters, per cent, against the latter. In the year 1801, another Committee reported that the Irish Bank paper in circulation had increased to 2,266,0001. and the tate of exchange was tlevent and one-third i)er cent. against Ireland. In Ja nuary 1804, another selea Committee reported tle‘t the Bank of Ireland had issued paper to the amount of 2,986,0001. and that the rate of exchange betweco the twQ countries was 17 and 18 per cent. against Ireland. It tlMs appeared, that in 1804, the 136nIte of Ireland paper had suffered a most enormous predation. The authority by which that faet was stated wool(' not be 'di s put e d, whe n h e Men. , lioned that the Committee consisted of 'Mr. Pitt, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Yorke, Mr. Roe, Mr. Long, Mr. Vansittaft, Mr. Manning, Sir John Sinclair, Mr. Thornton, and oth,crs. "It was true, that Abe Exchange between the two countries was now at par, w hich seemed to imply, that Irish paper bar } recovered its valor. But let it be recollected, that in 1804, a pound note and a shilling would pur-, chase a guinea. If a calculation were, made Orli the additional sum which was tnAv necessary to purchase a guinea, the result would show, that tilt , existing rate of Exchange was at l east twenty-five tier cent, against Ireland. The Bib went to m a ke Bank paper, depreciated as it was, even more de' predated than it was in 1804, a legal tender. al . a measure of such importance, bethought that the House could not refuse to pause, to give file - Fry', pie of Ireland, whose interests -w( re so mate rially affected by it, every opportunity of defend* ing - those interests on which the Le!:islanire were - now called upon to decide. It was said the measure was found most beneficial in . England; and thee' fore it ought to he extended to Ireland, in justice r' the people of that country; but those who said t