The Sun. — London, England, 1837-04-12 00:00:00

h; reform. Even in the measure of Parliamentary Reform lie raised its voice in rain to obtain for Ireland as large a reform as was given to England and to Scotland. Again he raised his voice and entreated that his country might be placed on the same foOting as regarded Municipal Corporations as England and Scotland. To those who endeavoured to withhold the boon he would only say, " Your paltry Corporations, the last rem nant of your tyranny and oppression, may give you a tempo rary protection, but I tell you emphatically that seven millions of Irishmen will not endure them long. The elders amongst us may bear with it, because we have been bred up in servility, but there is young and violent blood in Ireland which will not long submit to the tyranny practised upon ourselves and our fathers."—( Cheers.) Mr. FINCH contended that the principle laid down by the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny, if carried out to its full extent, would lead to the inevitable destruc tion of the Established Church in Ireland. He (Mr. Finch) maintained that there was no need of Corporatioaa in Ire land, and that they could confer no benefit upen the peo- Ale. Where was the advantage resulting from Corporations even in England ? There were the two cities of London and Westminster ; the first had a Corporation, the second had none; yet whoe ver h ear d o f any man ' s remov i ng from West minster to London in the expectation of deriving any greater benefit because the latter was governed by a Municipal body. ---( Hear, hear.) It w a s p r esposterous to h ear H onourab l e Gentlemen, night after night, contending that th e peop l e of Irel an d would be deprived of a benefit if the Corporations in that country were wholly abolished. It was equally ab surd to say that Ireland must have Corporations because England and Scotland had them. There was little identity of law between the two countries. It had been said that Ireland was much more tranquil than it was a few years ago. He ad mitted it was so ; but he denied most of the inferences which gentlemen opposite wished to draw from this circumstance. He must, however, deny that there was that astonishing de crease of crime in that country that had been asserted ; and as e orrohoratary of this, he would appeal to the charge of the Learned Judge at the late Kilkenny assizes. To pass this Bill would be nothing more nor less than plunging that coun try into the greatest possible state of discord, and place it more under the controul of the priests and agitators. This measure would also make the Church insecure ; and he sin cerely believed that that establishment was the chief means cf restraining the encroachments of the Church of Rome. He was anxious to see an influx of British property into Ireland ; but this never would take place as long as agitation prevailed, and the priesthood exercised to such an enormous extent their baneful influence. He should give his most strenuous opposi tion to this Bill. Colonel I'. P. THOMPSON could not help feeling that one circumstance had been left out of consideration in the discussion of this question; namely, how the young blood cf E ng l and would regard a contest with Ireland,' which the party opposite seemed determined to force on. (Hear, hear.) He had been anxious to find out what was the under-current of men's feeling towards Ireland, and he was convinced that tile people would never sanction a resort to force. Mr. WILLIAM ROCHE a dd ressed the House in support of the Bill, but in such a low tone of voice that his observa tions were inaudible in the Gallery. Mr. VILLIERS did not wonder at the course which the discussion had taken upon this question being the subject of general remark, and that astonishment was expressed that a Measure which was thought of sufficient importance to justify resistance at the expense of offending the pride and feeling of numbers of our fellow-subjects should go forth from this House to be thrown out in the other House without an ar gument being offered in answer t o th ose b y w hi c h i t h a d b een su PPerted, and that here, in this second stage of the debate, that ee should hear only repeated those personalities, those f • ali acui, that bigot cry,' which had done so little credit to the House on the former occasion, and which then been the su hect of such just reproof from this side of the House. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") He (Mr. Villliers) was not cur- Prised at this, as he had observed from the first a deliberate Purpose on the other side to remove the question from its na tural province, and to argue and to use it for other purposes; a al l, (1 . wheth er w i se l y or not, he had seen that the other side, mis tinguished as it was from this upon principle, were deter rtuled to t a k e t h e i r stand b efore the country on this question. had been selected to make an experiment upon the present °Pinion of the country. The reform of the institutions of the ( tru "Mil', and th e res i stance to t h at re f orm, had b rought the S ggle now to a question of principle, and the ground was now fairly taken, on which contest the power by which the talicy of thi s country was to be guided and governed in future. The question then was, whether the general policy of the Go vernment of this country was to be dictated to by the House of Lord' or the House of Commons. That was fairly the con fl t ict in w hi c h we were engaged. The advocates of governing his country by the House of Lords say that we have gone too tar in reform —that its progress should be arrested, and that an opposite policy should be adopted ; and if, say they, the Popular party have gained strength by introducing the repre sentative principle into the municipalities of England and Scotland, they will stand between them and any accession of their strength to be derived from a similar source in Ireland ; and the Lords aro now cheered on to persist in the course they have pursued for three Sessions Past, and are encouraged to believe that, if they will show courage and energy equal to the task, they may accomplish the object and obtain that dominion in this House which they formerly possessed for so long a period. It was known that hthree great triumphs in the cause of civil and religious liberty ad b een ac hi eve d o f l ate years. One was the improvement the representation, or the Reform Bill ; the other was the Municipal Corporation Bill ; the other was the removal of re ligious tests for Members to sit in Parliament, or the Catholic Bill. Now, he would ask any man to say if it was not the burden of every Tory song—if it was not th e t o pi c i n po li t i cs in every company of that party—and that all the evils which had visited this country since that time were to be ascribed to t he passing of one or all of those measures • and that the insti tutions o f t h e country, nay, that the English Constitution, could not be preserved unless those measures were modified, as they called it, but repealed, as they did no t scrup l e to say, they in tended ? But did it only depend upon what they said ? Let any Man look to what they did. Last year an attempt was made in the House of Lords to tamper with the Reform Bill. In every Court now there is an attempt going on to undermine the Mu nicipal Bill. There has not been a Session pass since the enact- Ment of the Catholic Bill that Members have not come down to this House and avowed their regret at passing that Bill, an d who ha ve d ec l are d that they never would be parties to it tgain if th e c h o i ce was again offered to them. Now, we know at for men to seek power upon the avowed intention of re- Pea ling these measures of j ustice would defeat their object. fi t .! re nust be taken, th ere f ore, not to awaken alarm ; much efs is now set upon the apparent indifference of the people ; well not to rouse them from their slumber. It becomes snquestion, then, how pop u l ar v i g il ance was diverted for so til 4 . Y Years in this count r y b e f ore; and how was attention 1„,1)Z ` ll ort W d from h the reform of real a b uses to matters of tr i fling y, it was, as it is known by appealing to the reli qua fea rs of the people on the scor e , of the Catholic faith, and oalar rin g an anc i ent pre j u di ce once deeply rooted in the re am against all persons of that per suas i on . I t i s, therefore, il lt eeed now that what a Catholic question did before a Ca tut q u estion will d o n ow ; and w h a t we h ave ra i sed before us f ar Catholic question—the very question which occupied us ch ar s° many years? We have it in all its ferocity, in all its .n.ll,e:teristies of intolerance. Not an argument was used - 1 - 1 4 111 t the admission of Catholics into this House that has int o n advanced against the introduction of Catholics ahoue Corp orat i ons. The cry o f P opery i s ra i sed, and k one ` e d forth i n a ll t h e v i gour o f f ormer t i mes ; and all 04 - 4 ' and all expe c t a ti on o f return to power , i s now b u il t on peopleess of thi s cry. B ut t h e great quest i on i s, can the the y again b e d e l uded by a " church in danger " cry ? Do t s 4 new understand the true character of that cry ? Do they whe ther in all i ts bearings? He (Mr. Villiers) would ask whe psyrseErotestants ever obtained any reform while Catholics were Were For nearly tw e nty y ears , w hil e the Catholics -ele a saes n , -Un emancipation, was it not the boast of all the g,er cl ever men of p ar ty, th at t h ere was no rea l dan aatithoil-eving the restr i ct i ons upon C at h o li cs, b ut t h at t h e th at so e questio n was t h e outwork of the citadel of a b use; I % s orlta . 11 °11 g as the R e f ormers were k noc ki ng at t h ose out that then all safe w i t hi n; b ut, if t h ey were once destroye d , nothi n a all the mysteries of misrule would be examined, and or were twiloeu;dwbroongle,ft in peace within ? But were they right, Fro m 1 812 to who reasoned so? What was the . case ? Was reform° 1829 this during, that tim r .) uestion was in constant agitation. obtained, question was in constant agitation. during th otained, or even ventured to be asked for, t c s nis e e • In 1829 the Bill was passed. Now mark the - "e Scotchcience la 1 831 the Reform Bill was carried ; in 1832 step t ln were reformed; and in 1833 the first Leduceactkeil? number. , reform the Irish Church, and the Bishops were Vest / Rd . 'not-113er. In 1834 the slaves were set free in the th e too. ies, and trade set free in the East Indies. In 1835 Pap er ish Municipal Bill was carried. In 1836 the news the . press was released from part of its trammels. In 1837 ah h° P e s of the opposite party revive, and why ? Because eicZlicrortunity is thought to be observed for raising , a reli -3tleasureYl and stepping the progress of reform in future. A the seen wisdom and justice is proposed for the Irish people, f whom are still Catholic. A ray of the old pre stleaion I flickering about the country against that per 114kb thos e t is i mmediately hoped that it will be possible to t a gaie obsen.wretched shreds together, and devise a means of ere at ring the popular vision in all that concerns its in b. 0 4 ". if once accomplished, the unreforming process ry be g i n • Or in , I .t a S work. What is there that stands between re tty ? "t About ' ye been carried and the designs of the opposite I v a ealcoiat sixty Members of this House. But what are L by, that if n b s that one hears whispered about this House ? y any device the present Government should a — ui enl° r!d, these sixty men ma be reduced in number ; th at gain, if an appeal is made . to the country, b we hear there is much for the opposite o- • bo party to hope in the Rh, of _ _ laving become nomination ous e !e landed proprietors, who arc identified with the_ p e h oped Lords, and tha . t , a majority may be thus secured. th e °Y t he iriXie peopl e of h.ngland would stand nobly forward E n _,. s. people on this oecacon, as the Irish always had by th:. ,,, h when they were seeking reform, and show that d..ad intelligence and public spirit enough not to become . of dud of the hateful cry which was to become the ground eatahnooitih erreligious crusade against persons professing the t uain faith. The Catholics in this country engaged in the te nan e t a s s of life with all the integrity and steadiness of Pro- A;`"!e. and he happened to know how : in many instances, the le clergy in this country inspired the love and esteem of tionclnel-e neighbour i n w hi c h they were known. To th reli o. n.r t the but to Irish he s aw no reason to trace the disorders of that and s t 3', centuries of m i sru l e b y Protestants : lie saw bone 4 , a ,.0t cause for their misfortune. To change the condition eoUntry he was willing to make any experiment, and ta gs as he had e a ge ag that svhiceher heard of led him to expect such advan ces. eredence in their twas calculated to inspire in the people a _ocal authorities.—( Cheers.) Lord pt . AdV ii .. I 2QN rose for the purpose of denying that either he, or those with whom he acted, were hostile to the Roman Catholics as such. What they wished was to prevent the rise of Roman Catholic ascendancy on the ruins of Pro testant ascendancy in Ireland, and the destruction of the esta blished religion there. It was quite impossible to disconnect the Church of Ireland from the question of Municipal Reform there. This was a fact which, were it not otherwise perfectly clear, was rendered undeniable by the circumstance that of the 283 petitions which had up to the preceding day been presented from Ireland in favour of this measure, not fewer than 215 prayed also for the abolition of tithes.—( Hear, hear.) It had been said that this change in the Municipal Institutions of Ire land was universally called for. This assertion was flatly con tradicted by the f act t h at o f t h e 47 towns propose d to be incor porated only 23 had sent petitions in support of the measure. Viscount MO R PET H rose to trouble the House with a few observations. The Noble Lord and his friends were quite wrong in supposing that it was the wish of Members to invest the Roman Catholics of Ireland, as such, with any exclusive privileges ; it was not their wish to do this any more than it was their wish to give these exclusive privileges to the Pro testants of Ireland. What they aimed at was to do away with exclusive privileges altogether, and to give to all classes alike equal privileges. The Noble Lord stated that this was not the time for the measure ; that the hour was not auspicious, or he might be inclined not to oppose it. The planetary con• junctions were not favourable. The Noble Lord, it seemed, could not consider this Bill, because the Irish Poor-law Bill bad not been read a second time, and because the Irish Tithe Bill had not been introduced at all. He (Lord Morpeth) certainly wished that they could make a more rapid progress with measures. But he was by no means sure that by attempt ing to proceed with several at the same time they might not entangle them with one another, so as to occasion consider- able confusion. Th e i n t e rests of the E s t a bli s h e d Ch urc h, it I was said, would be endangered by the operation of this mea sure. How, he was quite at a loss to conceive. It would affect none of the revenues ; it would interfere with none of the mi nisters ; it would touch none of the doctrines of the Church. His Noble Friend the Member for South Lancashire had alluded to the character of the petitions which had been presented on the subject. If his Noble Friend wanted any confirmation of the state of public feeling on the subject in Ireland, let him look at the address presented to his Majesty about three weeks ago, bearing two hundred and fifty thou sand signatures ; of which address the single and exclusive object was the acquisition of Corporate Reform.---( Hear, hear.) Was it not a most desirable thing to endeavour to oc cupy mens' minds with their own local concerns? Would not that object be promoted by the Bill ? A complaint was made of the difference of the qualifications in the English and Scotch and in the Irish Municipal Corporation Bills ? They did differ. The Irish Bill could not comprehend a qualification similar to that of the English Bill, for there was no corres ponding rate. The 101. qualification in 1833, was avowedly introduced to prevent the evil of self-election, and the fact was, that the evils and inconveniences of the higher qualifica tion having been felt in Scotland, there was, at this moment, a Bill on the table to give the five-pound qualification to 39 of the smaller boroughs in Scotland.—( Cheers from the Op position ) Gentlemen cheered ; but were there no prece dents for this in Tory legislation within the last twenty years ? Acts had been passed within that period applying to some of the Scotch boroughs that were not Royal, settling the qualifi cation. In Airdrie, with a population of six thousand, the qualification for a burgess, by an Act of 1821, was the payment of three guineas. In Bathgate, with a population of 2,600, the qualification was property or tenancy of a house of the rent of 31. or upwards, paying 21. 2s. for the privilege. In the borough of Kilsythe the qualification was a 5/. rent, and in Pol lockshaws the possession of property of the yearly value of 4/. Now let it be considered how small a number of 101. house- ---,- holders was to be found in ma n y o f t h e I r i s h towns. He would read a list of some of them : Registered £lO House Population. holders in 1333. Athlone 11,406 Carlow Cashell Dungannon Drogheda - 261 Tr.:lee Waterford You&hal 11,32 7. 232 _ _ From these returns it was evident that in applying to the towns in quest'on a qualification exceeding 5/., the constitu ency would be rendered much too scanty. And what, after all, was the qualification fixed by the Bill ? The very quali fication of the Act of the 9th of George I V., which was such an exclusive favourite with the benches opposite. A great ob jection which had been made to the Bill was, that the present Corporations had many functions which the new ones were not to have. The argument was, that the new Corporators being left comparatively idle, would necessarily be mischievous. And the very ingenious and logical conclusion was what they ought to have nothing whatever to do.—( Hear, hear.) But seemed the Irish were not so civilised as the English, and therefore were not fit to have any Municipal Corpo rations. But surely they were as civilised as our ancestors were when the Saxons and Normans established Corporations; or as the people of Italy were when they established those free Corporations which preceded their wonderful burst of science, and learning, and art. He would here allude to a very eloquent article which appeared in the last number of the Quarterly Review, an article written with great ability and spirit. In the first place, however, to show that the writer of that article did not concur in the view which his Majesty's present Government took of ecclesiastical matters, he would read a paragraph from the article on that point :—" Instead of reducing the number of Churches, it should multiply; instead of uniting parishes, divide and sub-divide ; instead of merely repairing Churches, build them where there is little demand for them, and therefore the more need. We should not wait for a Church till a congregation is formed, but form a congre gation by building a Church." This paragraph showed that the writer's views of ecclesiastical matters were very dif ferent from those of his Majesty's present Government. But what did he say of Corporations ? " Let us remember that Europe owes all its liberty, its knowledge, its wealth, its power, to incorporations, and we shall then understand why, in the eyes of our law, they have as true an existence, as much reality, as distinct rights, as much claim to respect and delicacy of treatment, as any individual." And a little fur ther, " Opinion has little weight, and very little logical strength, unless it comes from a community. The different tempers and acquifements of individuals, acting and counter acting on each other, form the best check upon error. They give ♦alidity to testimony, expansion to views, modification to hasty generalities, authority to individual character, and cau• tion and steadiness to impetuosity. And thus the State, as well as the Church, has always placed her councils and laws in the hands of corporate bodies."—( Hear, hear.) He would conclude by expressing his confidence that the House would not refuse to Ireland the benefit of such valuable institutions ; and that they would not allow a difference of creeds, or of worldly interests, to generate such a malicious animosity as to produce harsh and arbitrary proscription. The Bill under consideration involved a principle, the establishment of which would make the prosecution of the other measures a task of easier accomplishment ; a principle which was at the root of all the questions bearing on the connection between the two coun tries, and the establishment of which was inseparable from their joint tranquillity and happiness.—( Hear, hear.) Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, the Noble Lord had ad verted to the qualification in the Scotch Municipal Corpo rations Bill. Now he (Sir James Graham) appealed to those who remembered the debates on that Bill, whether a proposition for making the qualification Si. was not proposed, and whether it was not resisted by Lord Grey's Government, on the ground that if the qualification for the elective franchise for Members of Parliament were departed from in the Muni cipal Corporations Bill, it would become difficult afterwards to maintain the qualification for the elective franchise at 101. But the Noble Lord said there was a Bill in progress to re duce the qualification in Scotland to Si. The fact was, that everything that had been done by Lord Grey's Government with reference to the elective franchise, was now made the object of attack. It appeared to be the anxious desire of the present Government upon that subject to loosen and untie what it had been the policy of Lord Grey's Government to bind up and render permanent.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord bad read a statement of the small number of 101. house holders in proportion to the population in several of the Scottish towns. The inference which he (Sir James Graham) was disposed to draw from that statement was, that those towns ought not to have been inserted in the schedules. So strongly was he sensible of the evils which resulted from permitting political to be ii,fluenced by religious considera tions, that he could scarcely avoid exclaiming, in the words of the Latin poet— " Tantum religio pertuit suadere malorum." In the present unhappy case, the connection between politics and religion was clear and not denied. The opponents of the measure were asked, in what consisted the danger apprehended from it to the Church of Ireland ? That was the most im portant question to be considered. As far as it was practi cable to collect the public sentiment in Ireland with respect to the Church, the sentiment of the great majority, it might be gained from that unhappily constituted body, called the Na tional Association. He would read the resolutions on that subject of the National Association, passed unanimously and by acclamation within the last three months. The first reso lution was as follows :—" That it is incompatible with the principles of religious liberty that any man should be com pelled to pay for the ordinances of a Church with which he is not joined in communion."—( Hear, hear, hear.) Did the Hon. Gent.emen on the other side mean by their cheers to indicate their approbation of this resolution? The second re solution was, " That as under the present appropriation of the tithe composition a tribute is levied from the whole nation for the uses of the Church of only the one-tenth portion of the community, the people of Ireland are, therefore, jus tified in demanding the total extinction of an assessment so applied." There were no cheers on the other side now.__( A laugh.) He should like to know whether these were the prin ciples on which the new Tithe Bill was to be founded. The third resolution was—" That, in our opinion, no settlement of the Tithe question can give satisfaction to the people of Ireland which is not founded on the foregoing principles." That was carrying the matter much farther than the appro priation clause. He should not be surprised to see the ap propriation clause thrown out, and the voluntary principle substituted for it. The fourth resolution was as follows That we call upon the people of Ireland not to desist from all legal and constitutional means of redress till they have ob tained full and complete relief from an impost equally oppres sive and degrading." It thus appeared that in the opinion of the Association any support of the Irish Church was oppres sive and degrading. The Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that all that was said on that (Sir J. Graham's) side of the !louse respecting the Honourable and Learned Member for Kilkenny only magnified and increased that Hon. and Learned Gentleman's power. That from the benches opposite ! Hid they forgotten the appointment o Mr. Pigott ? Had they forgotten the appointment 9f Mr. THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 12, 183? O'Dwyer ? Had they forgotten the appointment of the last two Assistant-Barristers, both of whom were mem bers of the National Association ? He ( Sir James Graham) was the last man to deny the talents, the power, the influence of the Honourable and Learned Member for Kilkenny. But was not the weight of those talents, of that power, of that ielluence, felt by his Majesty's Government ? Did they not retain office, during the last Session, mainly by the a3sistance of that Hon. end Learned Gentleman?—( Hear.) Now, let the House have that Hon. Gentleman's opinion with respect to the Irish Church ; and he ( Sir James Graham) was not about to quote any hasty expression—( Cries of " Ques tion")—but he would quote from a letter of the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny, written in a calm moment, in answer to a question put to him by the Hon. Member for Northumberland ( Mr. W. Beaumont). The letter was dated Derrynane Abbey, Dec. 30, 1836 :—" You ask, first—' If believe that Ireland ever will be, or ought to be, tranquil, unti the religion of the majority is placed on an equal footing, ii every respect, with that of the minority ?'" The answer wa. as explicit and clear as ever was given to a plain, straightfor ward question :—" My answer is ready. Ireland cannot pos sibly be—she, in my opinion, ought not to be—tranquil, until the religion of the majority is placed on an equal footing, in every respect, with that of the minority."—( Loud cheers from the Ministerial side.) So that now it was a question of equality as between the two Establishments. But the Hun. and Learned Gentleman said something further; and he ( Sir J. Graham) should be curious to hear whether this would be greeted by a cheer also : —" I add, that until then she will not be—and, while I live, she certainly shall not be—free from salutary, but peace ful and energetic agitation ; that is, until perfect religious equality—without one particle of political, civil, or temporal ascendancy at either or any side—is firmly established." Now, what was the interpretation of this equality ? Why, the Hon. Member went on to say----" I am convinced that the peace, tranquillity, and prosperity of Ireland require the establish ment amongst us of the vol un t ar y p r i nc i p l e o f ma i nta i n i ng religion; and that as long as any pecuniary ascendancy, as long as any power remains to a Protestant minister to put his hands into the pockets of the Catholics, so long dissension, dissatisfaction, and turmoil will reign paramount in Ireland. The people of Ireland join me in this contemptuous disclaimer of longer supporting, out of our means, that Church ;" " we never will be parties to our own degradation, by acquiescing for one moment in the superiority of a Church to which we do not belong." Until, then, this voluntary principle was esta blished, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman declared that ener getic agitation should never cease. But, !said his Majesty's Attorney-General for Ireland, " I do not quarrel with the pre sent position of the Established Church in Ireland." Why, he ( Sir J. G.) was not astonished to find that that Learned Gent., being a Roman Catholic, did not quarrel with the present po sition of the Established Church in Ireland; more espe cially when he heard the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ire land, and his colleagues, as Ministers of the King, d ec l are the Protestant Ch urc h to be a rotten Church.—( Lord Viscount Morpeth here said, " No, no.") If the Noble Lord retracted his words he was happy to hear it ; but he cer tainly understood him to say it was a rotten position. Now he would not shrink from saying, that no man supported the concession of the claims of the Roman Catholics more warmly or more conscientiously than he himself did. But under what promises did he do so ?—( Hear, hear.) Why he had the solemn oaths and declarations of some of the most distinguished members of the Catholic body—( Loud cheers) ; —he had the most solemn assurance of the most distin guished Roman Catholics, that all assaults on the Estab lished Church should cease. Now, with reference to the present demand for concession, they were told, " You may make it if you will ; but agitation shall never cease in Ire land until we are placed on an equality." War was declared —war to the knife with the Church Establishment. There was no mistake on this occasion, for they were told that the Irish people looked to a greater and ulterior object. Now, there was a point made by the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire, with regard to the omission of the declara tion that the corporate offices should not be used for any pur poses trenching upon the interests of the Establishment; and certainly a more whimsical answer than that given by the Attorney-General for Ireland he had never heard —he should say, indeed, it was purely Irish, for lie said, that supposing the Municipal Bill passed, that would be a reason why the oaths should be dispensed with. He would say that a strong objection to this measure in its present shape was that it would be a most powerful lever whereby the de struction of the Established Church in Ireland might be of fected. He had said he stood not there to frame a bill of in dictment against the people of Ireland. The right of the people of Ireland, prima facie, to their municipal rights was felt ; and the onus to prove the exception rested with those who opposed the measure. It was the peculiar circumstances in which the Established Church was placed in Ireland which were to be considered. He thought it was a matter worthy of the attention of his Majesty's Government ; and for one he would distinctly say, that if he could ace the Church of Ire land placed in a position of greater security, he should be happy. But he would say if the Government introduced a Tithe Bill with the appropriation clause, it must contain a principle which was inadmissible as applicable to the English as well as the Irish Church ; and he never could give his con sent to the third reading of this Bill. Lord JOHN RUSSELL could well conceive that it must have been the wish of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite to have had the debate closed on the previous evening, for a po sition more difficult or more embarrassing than that in which the Right Hon. Gentleman was placed he had never witnessed in that House. On former occasions, and upon the very last dis cussion of this question, the proposition raised by Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House was, that Municipal Corporations ought not even to be reformed, but that they were to be en tirely abolished in Ireland. This was an argument which he thought was untenable—it was one which he thought there was not much to be said upon, in support of the views of those who supported it ; but it was an argument which, in comparison to the . present, must be paralysing to those who had to maintain it, that these parties yielded with great propriety to the declaration or the House, that mu nicipal corporations in Ireland ought not to be abolished— that they might and must be reformed—that at the present time, and in the present state of society, and with the provi sions of the Bill, its clauses with respect to tolls and other matters before them, there was one half of a body of persons to be found who thought it improper to aetee to municipal corporations in Ireland, and there was another half who were also laying the groundwork of the downward path of conces sion ; for the downward path most truly it was when the just desire of a great portion of the people having been long re fused, the matter was to be wrung from those who withheld it, by their fears. That was the downward path, and if in that spirit they were to concede a boon, they could not be be forehand with the people. If indeed those concessions were made willingly—if the people asked of them that which they wished to enjoy for themselves, they must delight in partaking, of those privileges with them. The Right Hon. Gentleman, in the greater part of his speech, had dwelt but little upon the subject immediately in debate ; but he had touched upon questions relating no doubt to the posture of affairs and the general situation of Ireland. He (Lord John Russell) would endeavour to prove the points upon which the Right Hon. Gentleman had dilated. The Right Hon. Gentleman, catching at the 51. franchise in Scotland, which bad been men tioned by the Noble Lord near him, had made that the occa sion of a taunt against the present Government, and con trasted their mode of proceeding with that of Earl Grey's Government. The Right Hon. Gentleman had attached much importance to this point ; this franchise in Scotland was spoken of as a vital question. Now what was the fact with re ference to this vital question respecting the 5/. franchise pro posed for Scotland, oss whicsh it was pretended so much inte rest was taken by Earl Grey's Government ? Why did the Noble Lord and others forget the subject coming on of a Wednesday ? He remembered that the Ministers dined with him (Lord J. Russell) on that day, and he certainly did not remember that any one of the Members of Earl Grey's Go vernment expressed an opinion on the question. He would not be quite sure, but he supposed that his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Cumberland must have been one of the din ner party.—( Hear, and a laugh.) Undoubtedly there might be some small points upon which the line taken by the pre sent Government might be different from that taken by Earl Grey's Government. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that the people of Ireland did not ask for this Bill, but he thought it was generally'admitted that they did ask for it. - Sir JAMES GRAHAM here observed that the Corpo rate towns did not a:sk for it. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The Right Hon. Baronet said the Corporate towns did not ask for this measure ; but the people of Ireland generally did, he supposed he would allow. And then the Right Hon. Gentleman touched upon a topic which he should have thought he ought to have omitted, after tae previous speeches, narnely,lthat of the misfortune of mixing up politics with religion. Now hardly any Hon. Member had mingled religion with politics. If, indeed, any one had brought forward religious matter, it had been the Right Hon. Gentle man himself who had done so. He would ask what was the meaning of the passage which the Right Hon. Baronet read from a pamphlet giving a clscription of the Spanish priest hood on aformer occasion ? Did he, or did he not, m e an to ap ply that paragraph to th e p r i ests of Ireland? And he would say, if he did so for this purpose, was it fair to make this sort of wholesale accusation against the priests of six millions of people, and then give them a solemn lecture on the impropriety of mixing up religion with politics? Th e Ri g h t H un. Gentle man had said that his Noble Friend (Lord Morpeth) near him had declared this not to be a vital question. Now what his Noble Friend did state was this, that there were other vital questions to be considered, but that this was not, perhaps, the most vital. He (Lord John Russell) had declared on former nights that this was a question in which he thought the Go vernment of Ireland ought -to be considered, and that he con ceived it to be a vital question with the prusent administration. Then, again, the Right Hon. Gentleman told them that he would not agree to this Bill, because certain resolutions had been introduced into it by the General Association of Ireland. Now, he would ask a question or two on this head by and bye, with reference to the declaration which he had made; but in the meantime he would beg to tell the Right Hon. Gentleman that, threadbare as the debate was, one of his taunts was even still more so, namely, that his Majesty's present Government existed by the support of the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny. Undoubtedly, when a Ministry was supported by no very considerable majority—( Hear, from the Opposition benclies)----and yet not in the position of Honourable Gen tlemen opposite, who were left every night in a minority when in power, if any portion of those who voted usually with them were to vote against them, the case must be altered, and then they must have lost the confidence of the House.— ( Cries of " Hear, hear.") It appeared that the Honour able and Learned Member for Kilkenny supported them, but it also appeared that a section of that side of the House con sisted of the oldest Whigs, who, if they thought the Govern ment were disposed to deal too violently in going the down s%ard path, must become their opponents—a fact which would be equally fatal to the present Ministry. What was there, then, in this taunt of the Right Hon. Gentleman, as to the I complete and final satisfaction in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) And smallness of the majority in favour of the Ministry ? What did I his opinion also was, that if they (the House of Commons) it amount to but this—that the Hon. and Learned Member I were to accept, clause for clause and word for word, the for Kilkenny, although be did not agree with the Government 1 Bill sent down to them from the House o 7 Lords, that in many of their opinions, nevertheless thought it right to Bill would not produce final and complete security to the give them his independent support, because he saw in their Church in Ireland.—(llear, hear.) Such ware the iliticul measures a better prospe c t fo r th e f u t ure fate of Ireland ? ties attendant upon a settlement of the question. He quite When he said this, he (Lord John Russell) was not responsi- agreed with Ri g h t Hon. G en tle man opp os it e t h at t h e placing. ble for the opi n i ons o f t h e Hon, an d Learned Me m b er for the charge for the Established Church more upon the Protes- Kilkenny. as he was not respon s ibl e f or hi s (Lord John Rue-.I taut landholders, and less upon the R ,man Catholic tenants sell's). There was a common rum our i n th e world that at the would operate materially to make the security of the Church great crisis of the Reform Bill, when all the agents and or- in Ireland much greater than it then - was. He was also of gang of the Tory party wer e en gage d i n abu s i ng the Earl of opinion with the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite that the giv- Harrowby and Lord Wharncliffe as waverers, they were told, ing the people of Ireland a f ee li ng that soe art at least thse when they wished t o go on w i th the Reform Bill, that if vast revenues were empl o y e d for the benefit of the of gre e at they would not consent to strike out schedul e A, or postpone mass of the population was another means by which the it, the party would not go down to vote. This was one of general feciiag of the •country might in some degree be conci!i the many instances in which rumour had declared that the ated. There (continued the Noble Lord) are many opinions more violent part of a body had defeated the more moderate. upon the subject. Ido not pretend to say that I see any The General Association of Ireland had declared, as the way by which a final and complete settlement of the ques- Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny had also declared, tion can be made. Yet Ido hope—l do sincerely wish— er' opinion in favour of the voluntary principle. The Hen. that Parliament may devise some means by which the pressure and Learned Gentl e m an had a right, if he chose, to entertain of the question may be lessened.—( Hear.) The Right Hon. that opinion, and he had the support of those who elsewhere Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) and the Noble Lord (Stanley) entertained the same opinion against the Established Church. have contended that we ought to place the Church in a state But what the Right Hon. Baronet had no right to say was, of complete security. I think we should be holding out false that they (the Ministry) entertained the same opinion, expectations, if we said that that would be the result of the Sir J. GRAHAM denied that he had made the assertion. measure we shall hereafter have to propose upon the subject._ Lord JOHN RUSSELL was glad to learn that the Right (Hear.) But whatever may be the result with regard to that Hon. Baronet bad not said so, because he had thought that measure, Ido not consider that either it, or the measure with the whole tendency of his argument went to show how danger- regard to the Poor-laws, is at all mixed up or involved with ous it was to make concessions to thos e whos e friend s and sup- this question of the reform of Municipal Corporations-- porters were unfavourable to the Established Church. If the (Hear, hear,) I tell you, that I consider this question of the Right Hon. Gentleman, however, did not maintain that establishment of reformed Municipal Corporations in Ireland opinion, then he (Lord John Russell) held the opinion that to be a just and wise measure—a measure likely to con the maintenance of any such opinions on the part of others ciliate the affections of the people of Ir e land towards the did not commit them. With reference to the question of general Government of this country, and by so much dimi_ the Catholic claims, and to the passi ng of the Catholic nishing the danger to any of the institutions of the land. I Emancipation Bill, he did not think that there was any say further, that it is a measure which is good in itself.— ground to say that the result had been difftrent from that ( Hear.) I say it is a measure which the present Ministry which had been anticipated. They were told at the time by have brought forward from a strong conviction of its justice. the Duke of Wellington, that it was a measure which would —(Cheers.) That conviction is increased from the manner be likely to prevent civil war in Ireland. They knew it was in which it has been received in this House.—( Hear, hear.) a measure which had introduced Roman Catholics into Par- The proposition for the abolition of Corporations in Ireland !lament, when they were enabled to urge their claims and has been negatived by so large a majority of the House of pretensions; and whatever disturbances there might have Commons that I hardly expect it to be brought forward again. been, he was convinced that more peace had been secured by —( Hear, hear.) On the other hand, I look forward with bringing in Roman Catholic Members than could have been confidence to the triumphant issue of the question, sure that secured now, in 1837, had that Act not passed, and the re- if you grant it now fully and generously, you will meet with strictions on Roman Catholics had been continued. But now, that support and gratitude which a measure so given, and in after having addressed himself to the speech of the Right Hon. such a spirit, has a right to command.—(Cheers.) But if Gentleman, he would proceed to state some few observations you delay to give it now, upon the pretence that the people with regard to this measure, and the objections made to it. He of Ireland are not fit to be trusted, because they have a Church must state first, that he considered the measure was in strict which is not agreeable to them, I feel the same confidence conformity with the Act of Roman Catholic Emancipation. that the measure will still be carried—l feel the same comfi- To refuse the admission of Roman Catholics into Municipal deuce that the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite will vote for Corporations in. Ireland, under the apprehension and plea it; but Ido not feel the same confidence that it would produce that they would exercise a dangerous supremacy, was to the same good feelings and the same good effects in Ire contract the letter and spirit of the Act. Talk of Roman land.—( Loud and long-continued cheering.) Catholics not keeping faith I What faith were the oppo- Sir ROBERT PEEL said that the surprise which he last items of this Bill keeping in excluding Roman Catholics from night felt that the House was not permitted, considering the Corporations arid municipal power ? In 1829 they said they exhausted state of the debate, to go to a division had not been were admitted to corporate offices, and yet, when the question in the least degree removed by the tenour of the discussion of came for their admission accordingly, it was urged that they that night ; and he hoped that those two or three Gentle could not be admitted ! Then his Noble Friend, and his Right men whose absence the House last night deplored—( Laughter Hon. Friend, said, why not impose the declaration which was and cheers)—and in compliment to whom (the debate being imposed by the Act for repealing the Corporation and Test entirely finished) the division was postponed, were now present Acts? Th e words contained in the declaration could only be in the House, and would enable them finally to dispose of the regarded ar intended to Milled security to the Protestant Dis. question..--( Hear, hear.) Ile felt, however, that it was not senters of Ireland, because the Roman Catholics were bound entirely owing to the absence of two or three Gentlemen that to take the oath prescribed in the 9th Geo. IV. the reluctance to divide was last night manifested. He bad Lord STANLEY here rose to explain what he had in- entertained his suspicions upon the subject before lie heard tended to state; but we did not collect the purpcjt of his ob- the speech of the Noble Lord who had just sat down ;_ and servationss these suspicions were fully confirmed when in the course of Lord - JOHN RUSSELL resumed. lie thought it would his observations h e found the Noble Lord so pointedly re have been much better that his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley) ferring to the approaching disunion between himself and the should have stated his opinion upon points of detail when the Honourable Member for Middlesex upon the subject of Bill was in Committee.—( Hear, hear.) Without going into Household Suffrage.—(Loud laughter and cheers.) When the various arguments advanced, in the present as well as in he found, on referring to the votes, that the first notice of former debates, upon the subject of Municipal Reform in Ire- motion for the 11th of April was given by the Honourable land, he would shortly endeavour to show the position in which Member for Middlesex for leave to bring in a Bill to extend they then stood. They maintained, in the first place, that the present suffrage to Household Suffrage, he knew perfectly Corporations were good in themselves; that they were useful well that one of the motives for adjourning the debate was to in exciting the spirit of the people, and in producing good local prevent that motion from being brought forward.---( Hear, government—( Hear, h ear )— an d t h at they were likewise hear.) The only novelty he bad' heard in the course of the useful in promoting order, and awakening a general spirit of debate of that evening was from the Hon. Member for Wol freedom in the community._( Hear, hear.) That position, verhampton (Mr. Villiers). The lion. Member for \Vol after some very ineffectual attempts to defeat it on the part of verhampton, thinking that the party on that (the opposition) the opponents to the measure, he apprehended was now fully side of the [louse availed themselves unfairly of the cry of established.—( Hear, hear.) He thought they had also este- the " Church in danger," determined, it would seem, to meet blished the position with regard to the cities of Ireland, that that cry by a counter-cry, namely, the " Reform Bill in danger." there was no reason why Cork and Waterford should not have —( Hear, hear, hear.) The Hon. Geutlennan said he had Municipal Corporations, as well as this English cities of Bath never heard a discussion conducted on the Opposition side and Bristol.—(Hear.) Further than that, he thought that of the House in which there did not fall from some one Gen they had also established the position, that while Eng- tleman or other an intimation that one at least of the three land and Scotland were allowed to have reformed Muni- great popular questions ought either to be altered or repealed. e,ipal Corporations it would be unjust as well as insult- The first of those was the Roman Catholic Relief Bill. Now ing to deny them to Ireland. With respect to the threatened he (Sir R. Peel) had never heard any Gentleman intimate an danger to the Church he thought that those who put the intention of bringing in a Bill to repeal that measure.—( Hear, Church forward in the argument were, in fact, the parties who hear.) lie certainly did hear in time speech of the Hon. created th e ver y danger they apprehended.—(Ch eers .) U n - M em b er for Meath (Mr. H. Grattan) last light, an ex iloubtedly it might be said, with some appearance of truth, tract f: ern' some Dublin newspaper, which the Hon. Mem that by denying the power proposed to be conferred by this her said placed him in possession of his (Sir R. Peel's) Bill, we should be keeping away one weapon by which the _opinions upon the subject ; and accordingly, upon the autho- Church might be attacked. But if that argument were rity of this Dublin newspaper, the Hon. Member de pushed to its true extent, it would not be confined dared to the House that it was his (Sir R. Peel's) intention to the rejection of this Bill of Municipal Reform—(Hear, to propose the repeal of the Catholic Relief Bill.—(Laughter.) hear)--but would go to the full length of re- Now, as the lion. Member for Meath was a Member of the ducing the Catholic people of Ireland again into that de- [louse of Commons, and consequently had opportunities of pressed condition from which, for the last half century, we hearing the debates within its walls, lie (Sir R. Peel) trusted have been gradually emancipating them.—(Cheers.) If that the Hon. Member would take the indication of his intentions could be done—if the whole Irish people, under the operation from his own declarations, and not from any anonymous pare of unequal laws, could be kept in a state of complete subjec- graphs which might happen to appear, even in a Dublin tion—the privileged minority might perhaps be regarded as newspaper.—(Laughter and cheers.) The Hon. Member for safe ; but when the fetter was removed from the Roman Ca- Meath, in the course of his speech last night, after attacking tholics—when they were allowed to acquire land, to hold of- him (Sir R. Peel) with a great deal of vituperated eloquence, five, to sit in Parliament, there could not be more danger in produced extracts:from speeches he (Sir R. Peel) had for the feeling of their strength and numbers as compared with merly delivered as arguments against him. It was rather an that of the members of the Established Church in Ireland.— unfair instrument to use ; but he ( Sir R. Peel) would not ( Hear, hear.) Such being, the danger to be apprehended, retaliate. The Hon. Member for Meath might rest assured and impossible, perhaps, to prevent, it was still said by some that whilst he lived he (Sir R. Peel) would never quote an ex of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, that if certain things could tract from any speech of his.—( Great laughter and cheering.) be done, they would not altogether hesitate about the con- " But," said the lion. and Learned Member for Wolverhanap cession of a reform in the municipal corporations. The ton, " there is not only a disposition on the part of the Oppo- Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) the Member for the sition to repeal the Roman Catholic Relief Bill ; there University of Cambridge, hi the course of his speech of is also an indication of a wish and an intention to the last evening, stated that " he could conceive it pos- repeal the English Municipal Bill and the Parliamentary sible to place the Established Church in a position in which Reform Bill."—( Hear, hear, hear.) At all events, he (Sir its revenues should be secured against the attacks made up- Robert Peel) had no intention to propose the repeal of on it by opposing sects—he could conceive a measure the Municipal Bill, because, if the Municipal Corporations which would place it in such a position of security and continued in the same change of opinions that had distin strength as to render its stability compatible with the existence guished them for the last year or two, they would shortly be of Municipal Corporations, vested with all the forms of self- come good Conservative bodies.—(Laughter and cheers.) government that could be desired in bodies of that descrip- Then with respect to the Parliamentary Reform Bill, who ou ions" That, undoubtedly, was sufficiently vague and indefi- that side of the House had proposed its repeal ?—( Hear.) nite ; but what said the Noble Lord the Member for North Who had proposed even to modify it ?--( Hear.) He had not Lancashire (Lord Stanley) who, if sometimes peremptory heard one single attack made either upon the principle or the with the House and harsh to his own friends, had usually the details of the Parliamentary Reform Bill, except from the merit of being exceedingly clear and precise in his language lion. Gentlemen who sat on the Ministerial side of the House. —( Hear)—what was the prospect that the Noble Lord held —(Cheers.) He would now address himself to the speech of out in his speech of last evening ? The Noble Lord said he the Noble Lord (J. Russell). In doing so he would avoid all was not prepared to say " that if he saw the Church placed in reference to the vestal criticism in ivhich the Noble Lord had a situation of security as to its revenues—if he had not heard indulged. He would not dwell upon the phrase " the down the dangerous doctrines of the gentlemen who composed his ward path" upon which the Noble Lord had laid so much Majesty's Government, anti of the supporters of that Govern- emphasis.—(Hear and laughter.) Yet what was to be im ment—his objections, which were now insuperable, might not plied from the phrase as originally employed by his Right in a great measure be modified. But even then he could not Hon. Friend ( Sir J. Graham)? He ( Sir R. Peel) would pledge himself to the present Bill, as it would still be open venture to say that if, instead of the "facilis descensus," his to objections. But he diet say that the question would be Right Hon. Friend had spoken of the laborious and difficult placed on an entirely new footing, if they were able to upward path, he would have been attacked by the Noble deal with it in such a manner that his objections to it— Lord, the great critic of the Administration, for not speak • as a Protestant—might be removed. With these views hog of the road of concession as an easy and pleasing descent, —and these' views only—he would willingly yield to the instead of a stubborn and unpleasing upward journey.__ introduction into Ireland of institutions, which were (Cheers and laughter.) Then came the disclosure about the not necessarily nor precisely similar, but which should be ana- Cabinet dinner. What a disclosure for the Noble Lord (J. logous to those of England, arid which, in his deliberate judg- Russell) to make ! Why, with his attachment to the popular meta, should be for the advantage of the people of Ireland." principle—with his love fur Municipal Corporations in Scot- This, too, he thought was sufficiently vague and indefinite.— 1 ind, as well as in England and Ireland—why was not the ( Hear, hear.) Such was the language held by his Noble Noble Lord, in the case cf the Scotch Municipal Bill, found Friend and by time Right Hon. Gentleman time Member for the watching over the cradle of freedom, instead of acting the University of Cambridge; and it was, in fact, a very good part of Amphitryon, and leaving his charge to take care of sample of the inconclusive nature of the arguments and state- itself ?—( Laughter and cheers.) So indifferent was the Noble ments advanced by the great mass of those who opposed the Lord to that unfortunate measure, that he positively left it to measure.—( Hear, hear.) - The meaning of this language, as its fate, and went to dinner.—( Renewed laughter.) But in far as he could collect any meaning from it at all, was this— absence and in his indifference, the Noble Lord unjustly and "If lie saw the. Church in Ireland perfectly secure he would ungenerously sought to inv o l ve hi s Ri g h t H o n . F r i en d (Si r then agree to a Bill unon th e su bj ect - o f M un i c i pal Reform, but J. Graham). It was the Noble Lord himself, and not the not to this Bill."—( Hear.) Could anythin g b e mo re vague Right Hon. Baronet, who was absent from the discussion and or unsatisfactory? • What was meant in the first sentence by division on the Scotch Municipal Bill.—( Laughter and cheers.) making the Church in Ireland perfectly secure? What was When the five pound clause was assented to in the Irish Bill, the danger to the Established Church that the Right Hon. the Noble Lord said, " Oh, there is a five pound clause in the Gentleman h a d t h at n i ght pointed out to them? It was this : Scotch Bill, and therefore, of course there must be a 51. that the General Association in Ireland had three months ago clause in the Irish Bill." Now he ( Sir R. Peel) had certainty entered into certain resolutions of a hostile character to- heard of a postliminions precedent; and it appeared in him wards the Established Church.—( Laughter.) Why, whatever that the precedent referred to by the Noble Lord on thts occa- Bill were introduced upon the subject, what power had the sion must embrace something of the character inip . :ted uneer Government of the day to prevent meetings at D u bli n at t h at teano ___( Laughter.) Fintl,ing that a Si. cseuse in the which similar resolutions might not be agreed to, and u p on Scotch Bill would be a suffleicmt authority for the insertion of which ge n tl emen so t i m i d as those opposite might not found a similar clause in the Irish, •, t h m i e i pa l Bill, the Noble Lord an argument that the Church was not per f ect l y secure ? i mme di ate l y set to work tr., create a precedent, and subsequently ( Hear, h ear. ) Yet, according to the statement of his Noble to the introduction of t'he Irish Bill moved for leave to bring Friend (Lord Stanley), until the Church in Ireland was per- in a Bill to abolialt, fectly secure, until there were no resolutions, no opinions ex- 'Chat Bill had ',4D+ et passed through one single stage ; but pressed against it, it would be totally impossible for him to the Noble 1 40 - . d was y elad to look at in his moment of difficulty, agree to a measure of Municipal Reform.—( Laughter and and airearie it . wA quoted as a precedent, and used as an areu 'a 51. constituency in Se:niand.—(Hear.) ) One word upon the other part of the question. The merit by e f ig n e . r3 G . Gentlemen opposite said it was quite impossible for them kingthe ii :'___ He (Sir R. Peel) telt that the argu to consent either to the present Bill or to any other that should merit ' -.. the subject of the Bill then under their considera proceed upon the same principle. Now, what did they mean tio' Upon entirely exhausted. lie must, however, be allowed j ilo2 ( C i w ie ln a o r sontendA for an identity of the law in both by that ? Ills conception of a Corporation was this : a place a ' 1 was l I t state the rounds upon which he rested Ills op -1 .ery s loft 0 lie where the people elected their own Government for ti- - own local purposes. If it were said that the majority of than I a clime of local government for Ireland. Upon its ab. place should elect the local Government, then there_ would 1 as s ' viewing it as it then stood, be objected to it what be considered to be Municipal Reform •a then 0 oe stractiimlerits, retainedto 'ilion he had formerly expressed, that 'LI' 1 position to it. viewed g the Bill upon its abstract merits He st . , would be rested in the inhabitants of the town that po et tr' 4 self-government which was deemed desirable ; but experience of tim working of the ye , on without any previous _. the other hand, it was said that the Majorit Y 4 .mo u ld formed municipal system, an in , ~ d forte out of the forty-seven not have the it e o f to establish at onLe pi fort le power of electing the Local Gore ' -seven corporations in Ireland, if it were said that the power of electing that G • I Corporations were ceded on all hands) carrying the ov . . AI/ nment Munieipa should be vested in the hands of a small minor . itr versant and unwise extent.—( Hear, hear.) was ., (even if the policy of the maintained that the measure, though possibi• unaccompanied a by the payment of assessed called a reform, would not be a real reforre, t u l t In I,:iy, t t ;T :emn „hte, franchise,tocrsinecsitplai.beliseoh al te ls s . franchise, ight be The their argument, he could only auppose that any . 1 ineffectual reform.—(Hear, hear.) d in Scotland, or to the poor-rate as it existed in 1-,:nas definite explanation, and judging from time gene-ilea of any - land, eN3 would be a very indiff2fent, and in iris opinion insufficient, i ri th 4 abse. a ialse and taxes, tc s _o r y paymeet coraesponding to assessed taxes, such as tenor of test of the competency of the constituency.—( Hear, hear.) municipal reform likely to receive the axprobat . - Was t here not at that moment a committee of time House sit of the Hon. Ge n tl emen oppos i te viac r l . - I 'n ni eel support . of .._.., ~ H a d not to oe of th ai4 ting on the report fictitious eutes in scottanu r scription.—. - tter des which (Ha er hear.) He roust now expre , 4 •. is the evils which were said to have arisen in that country upon to he could not refer without sorrow, bee• art opinio 1 the subject of the franchise been entirely the result of the 113asure of dose i . t was a: ~ opinion that the difileultiofi they had then to sill greater than those with which they had ' i .they 1 ...1 1- d , .e . • , c 1 f the workilea Vith the experience la , a rtei y most%•t u former dayc!neour ;ter were ned to 0 3ntend in \ , . it could be s. His opinion was, that if a tfill •- . , sinik rto that eoriety of p . rine . ieles laid down as to the value of property of last of time meoele of year were now to be sent up to the House,, thought that the civil or moral improvement l. , , if Lords, amid to be passed by their feordshipe inn exactly of the system in Scotland, he did not know dow as presented to thein it w( Aki 4 .. ~.. _, ~ the s: Arne shape .. . ' e - • '/. franchise.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") 01 , lisi) .. g the efrec c I producing Ineyal purposes 4.1 ~.; Irelaed would be promoted by extending to them for ad Au- It was said, give to Ireland corporations on the sa principle as those. of England. —( Hear.) The English poli were . appointed by the Lord lieutenant in each county ; in Ireland it was proposed to place the whole of that poi in. the hands of those local and irresponale bodies. U 1 that ground, as well as upon others. on which ire veould then dwell, he objected to the Bill as a scli.ene of is gove:nment.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord might edl h that these were details, and that they ought to leive be discussed in Committee. He (Sir R. Pee!) knew that :A were details, and he would state why it was that they w. not discussed in Committee. It was perfectly notorious t! whatever objections they (the Opposition) bad brought fr. ward, would at once have been ever-ruled. In the next phi, they felt that, with the, certainty of being over-ruled. th objections, if brought forward, would only have the effect obstructing the prospect of a satisfactory adjustment hereaft, In the course of the speech made last ntttht by an Home , able Member on the diploMatic service of • his Maj,!sty-1 meant the Honourable Member - for Mary-la-bonne—the He: Gentleman made an appeal to him ;. and if lie passed by tl appeal the Ilttr.durnble Gentleman might suppose that lie a not attempt to reply to it .because he could .not make at. comment on it. The observations of the Honourable Memle ran to this effect :—" There is one way in which, accordin to his friends, the Right Honourable Baronet might escap from this dilemma. They said, " You dont know Sir Robe Peel—he sees that the Irish Corporation Bill ma=t pass, an when he comes into °Mee, then he will pass something in th shape of a better Bill if he can, and atter that he will sac, Now the Church is, you see, in a better condition ; now l i i consent to passing the Corporation Bill.'" Ile should liket ask the Hon. Gentleman who were those friends of his whom the lion. Gentleman heard make these assertions ? He should like to know what there possibly was in his past conduct that could entitle friends of his to give him credit for such a course of proceeding ?—( Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman supposed, or at least his (Sir R. Peel's) friends who communicated with the Hon. Gentleman—(A laugh)—that he meditated in 4 t to pass this Bill. He did not hesitate to say that if he contem plated this Bill as he heel stated, and if persevering in his hosti lity to the passing of it on that occasion, and yet as the confi dentiar adviser of the crown he intended to sanction it, be did not hesitate to say that it would be a much more credit able part, seeing such a probability of expressing his conviction of the necessity of the measure, to give his Majesty's Govern ment his support, instead of opposing the further progress of the Bill.—( Cheers. ) He trusted, after this remark, lie should. convince the lion. Gentleman that he did not intend to pass this Bill, should he, by possibility, accede to office.—( Hear.) The lion. Gentleman might say, " No; you do not contem plate passing this Bill in its present shape, but you may sanc tion a Bill analogous do this, with some slight alterations." If the Hon. Gentleman asked him whether lie thought that, in the present position of public affairs and of parties, one party in that House was not necessarily pledged on the one hand to the unqualified support, and on the other to oppose, the resolution which turned him out of office, he (Sir R. Peel) would ask the lion. Gentleman, in reply, when that resolution had passed, whether he showed any wish to make concession with respect to the principle of the resolution—whether he showed any hesi tation to resign the office he held?—( Hear.) No ; he left office because he could not sanction that resolution, which involved . _ .e security of the Church of Ireland. If Hon. Gentlemen asked irn under what possible circumstances he would consent to any relaxation of his opposition to the establishment of Irish Municipal Corporations, as proposed in this Bill, he would re ply that he thought that Hon. Gentlemen had no right to ask him hypothetical questions or expect an answer to them. But, even if he thought any possible settlement of the question practicable, he did not then think that it would be advantage ous to state what he might conceive it to be. But he would say, that it was the duty of the King's Government, before they asked that House to come to a final decision on this question, to tell them what they int en d e d t o d o w i t h respect to the Irish Church.—( Cheers.) To say that that question was unconnected with the one before the House was perfectly in sulting—(Cheers) —and this was certainly not the feeling of his Majesty's Government at the commencement of the Ses sion. When the Noble Lord said that he would enter into an examination of the state of Ireland, he (Sir R. Peel) thought that he would have gone into an explanation of the principles on which the Government intended to act with respect to all their great measures regarding Ireland. But the Noble Lord merely indirectly alluded to the Tithe question, and stated that the nature of the payment to be made under th e P oor -l aw Bill s h ould be explained on a future occasion. Now he would ask the Noble Lord, who had taunted him with dealing in vague generalities, what he meant?—( Hear, hear, hear.) Now did not the Noble Lord, in effect, promise the early production of these measures ? ( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord must surely be supposed to have had these measures prepared and in his possessioa— ( Cheers.) If the Noble Lord had not these measures pre pared, what did be mean by inducing the King of England, as his adviser, to recommend to Parliament to take, not into their late consideration, not to postpone the subjects tee some distant period, but to take into their early consideration the present state of the corporations, as well as the tithe ques tion, and the difficult question of a provision for the destitute Irish poor.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Would any Hon. Gentle man suppose for one moment, after such declarations, that the Noble Lord and his colleagues had not got measures prepared on those subjects, that they had not made up their minds on these questions when they alluded to them in this way. —( Cheers.) The Noble Lord now said that he was ready to pass a measure for the settlement of the tithe question, if he could be satisfied that it would meet with the ready assent of the House of Commons, the House of Lords, and the people of Ireland ; but he went on to say that there were great impediments in the way of framing such a measure.— (Cheers. ) He would promise the Noble Lord that if he brought forward these two measures for the settlement of the Irish Church question, and for the establishment of Poor laws in Ireland—if he knew what were the intentions of the Government on those questions—if he knew what was the particular course which the House of Commons would pur sue with respect to those two measures—be would' not have pursued such a line as to have rendered himself' liable to the taunt of the Noble Lord, and those with whom he acted, that he dealt in vague generalities with respect to the Muni cipal Bill ; for he would have distinctly told the Noble Lord whether he was prepared to make any concessions on this ques tion, and what would be the nature of such concessions. It would have been open to him to have pursued this course if he had teen made acquainted with those measures; but now being in ignorance of the nature of those measures, he felt it to be his duty to persist in offering his opposition to the Bill. before the House.—( (fear, hear.) Knowing nothing, therefore; of the intentions of the Government with respect to the tithe question and the poor-laws, he felt it to be his duty to oppose this measure ; and the Noble Lord might be satisfied that the rule which he adopted in opposition, would be the rule that he would adopt if he should be called upon to accept office.— ( Hear, hear.) If, on the other hand, on seeing these two• measures with respect to the Irish Church and the establish ment of poor-laws in Ireland, he was prepared to modify in any degree his opposition to the Municipal Corporation Bill —this Bill, with respect to which the Noble Lord appeared to entertain Lis chief anxiety—he should take an opportu nity to declare distinctly what those modifications were ; and to those modifications he should adhere, if they were ac cepted by the Government • or, if they were not a c ce pt e d by the Government, and if the Government chose to abandon their positions, to those modifications he would adhere, if by accident he should be placed in their situation.—(Hear„ hear.) This he thought would be the course which alone. it would be creditable to a public man to pursue.--( Hear, hear.) If he felt it to be his duty to meet this Inca sure with unqualified opposition, such should be his rule. of conduct if he.were connected with the Government; if he thought that concessions should be made in case he took. office they should be distinctly stated, and the Government should also state whether they would accept them or not.— (Hear, hear.) These two questions were most nearly united. with that before the House. Would any one deny, after the declarations that had been made, that the chances of a settle-. tient of the Church question, with security to th e Estab lishment, would not b e grea tly diminished by passing this Bill for establishing Irish Municipal Corporations ?—( Hear,. hear.) He might be told that when they passed the Catholic Relief Bill there was the same assertion of danger to the Establishment. He denied it; for when they passed the Bil't to remove the disqualifications and restrictions from the Ca tholics, they had not only the most distinct and often-repeated. declarations that their removal would restore tranquillity and peace to Ireland, hut that it would also ensure the stability of the Established Church.—(Hear, hear.) With a solemn engagement that the maintenance of the Church was compa tible with the removal of the disqualifications on the Catho lics, it was then entered into.—( Cheers.) These disqualifi cations were removed ; and would any one tell him that since that Time the Church was not in danger ?—( Hear. ) In many' parts of Ireland it was notorious that combinations had been: entered into for the purpose of defrauding of their legal prc,— perty those who had au interest in Church estates. _ (Cheers.) At the - present moment, also, they had a res elu tion of that House before them that no settlement of the tithe question could take place satisfactosily traless it was e.ccom periled with an alienation of Church prorierty.—( Hear, bear.) As he had said before, the state of the question with respect to this Bill was essentially different from the Catholic Relief Bill. What were the objects of the supporting of this Bill? It had been asserted, in a pos,eilar assembly, that the main tenance of these institutions should be insisted on in the first place, because by means of these institutions a control could exercised oeer the people, and, secondly, that their in fluence would he exercised in a way to weaken the power of the Chorea.—( Hear, hear.) If they asked him what was his:, principle for the government of Ireland, he would reply, it was the maintenance of the principle of the Relief gill, the freedom of religion to all classes of his Majeety's subjects.—(Loud cheers.) But with this condition there. was co-existing, another, namely, that with the establishment of perfect civil equality there should also be a legal and 'bindina security for the maintenance of the establishment of the Protestant Church in Ireland as the established religion of the countrv.—(Cheers.) If ever there was a combination of justice and wisdom from a solemn compact—both from ex -- pressed and implied engagement—from considerations of: equity and sound policy—if ever there was such a combinatiora it took place in the case of the Protestant Church in Ireland.. (Hear, hear.) Relying on the principle of the Catholic Re— lief Bill—relying on file declarations made on its passing, as-, we.l as on those directed to be taken under its enactments—. relying on the principles of justice and sound policy, they• required, and they would continue to require, legislative' protection for the Church of Ireland, before they consented! to give privileges which were not required by the Catholic: Relief Bill, and which would only be employed for the" subversion of the Established Church.—( Loud cheering.) , lie said this arrangement was not on unfair terms : be believed that to these terms the country would subse f ibcp and he believed the country would adhere.—(hear, I , e ar.) These were terms with which he also believed, the Nobk Lore